In 1962 Alistair Burnett wrote an article in the Economist about moving the seat of government out of London to the north of England. In the past few years Prospect magazine again took up the idea and mentioned Liverpool as the ideal location. Again a Welsh MP motioned a Parliamentary debate on moving the capital to Liverpool. Many economists and political journalist also favour Liverpool; as one said it is the centre of the UK. None of these initiates came from Liverpool or Liverpool people.

Many have gone on about regeneration, alleviating London’s housing and house prices etc, which all makes sense. But the prime point which tends to get overlooked, is that the UK is falling apart. Southern Ireland has already seceded from the UK, just under half in Northern Ireland don't want to be in the UK and took to violence to attempt to get out, Welsh and Scottish independence parties are strong, and there is still a sharp north-south divide in England with each side not liking or trusting each other too well. Having the capital in the wrong place certainly did not help. And having Whitehall mandarins, who on the whole are private school/Oxbridge/ Southern England/jobs for the boys types not moving out of the South East too much, and at times ignorant of other regions in many aspects and then dictating to the regions, does not help either. Having the capital in the centre of the UK, instead of in the bottom right hand corner will certainly make matters better all around.

Liverpool is on the right side of the country for Northern Ireland so they are happy, a hop from Wales so the Welsh are happy, easy to get to from the South West, Midlands, North East, Scotland and the South East. Also Liverpool is still in England. It is the ideal choice of location, and has the entire transport and communications infrastructure in place. It has a water frontage which is far more appealing than what inland UK cities can offer. It all falls into place.

The relationship of UK politicians and the London City financial institutions is far too cosy. In most other countries they separate the seat of government from the financial, sector to great success: USA with Washington & NY, Germany with Berlin and Frankfurt, Italy with Rome and Milan, etc. The UK is probably the most centralised country in the western world. Franco attempted to centralise everything in Madrid so he could have control, but even he couldn’t fully do it with big Barcelona not having any of it. The UK had no equivalent of a Barcelona to oppose London, only the newly created Welsh and Scottish Parliaments.

The regeneration aspect of Liverpool and the North West, if the capital went to Liverpool is very welcome and it will obviously spread out the wealth of the country rather than concentrating on the South East of England. But the political aspect is far more important in the long term.

It is clear that there is a lot of support to move the seat of government, is any body in Liverpool actively supporting this notion?

Interesting post and it is worth thinking about. Personally I have never been a supporter of bringing such an institution to Liverpool as I think that would divert us...and any of the other major cities from the activities they should be pursuing. London can do this and maintain it's commercial focus simply as it si so big... just look at Brussels to see how anything other than a megacity would be overwhelmed. I think that they desperately need to break this logjam of over centralisation of everyting in London, but would like any 'Capital' to be out of the way, purely administrative etc and so somewhere like Preston, Lancaster or York would be the best type of city to accomodate such a body.

There is some fellow who writes to the Echo that we should form an alliance of the British Isles that would include Eire and that Liverpool could be the capital of that... I do think that Liverpool should position itself to be the venue for a forum focused round the countries of the British Isles, but again, politically and practically a more formal position should be avoided.


Interesting aspect of your comments below
"Franco attempted to centralise everything in Madrid so he could have control, but even he couldn’t fully do it with big Barcelona not having any of it. "

For all those regionalists who have been shocked by Liverpool forumers reluctance to join hands for the good of the 'North West' should see that, just like with Barca, our reluctance to yeild to a false notion is not parochialism... but the need to build and maintain our own assets... for the good of all.

This will never happen. We are too centralised but the national capital will always be London, regional devolution as much as we will get.

You are vastly overplaying the 'falling apart of the UK', the civil service is also nowhere near as public school/oxbridge/southern england dominated as you make out.

I don't think staunch Irish nationalists are going to change the political views held by their families for generations just because the UK parliament moves a bit closer to them.

what? LIVERPOOL the capial, queen victoria once qouted. Liverpool is the Money City of the world or UK... I think it should hold a mass governmental status here.. Fuck Manchester because everything we get they cry like a baby to get it. Liverpool has the biggest port and a massive city with governmental buildings.. Passport office etc.. Liverpool is Londons sister city, the buldings and layout is so similar its untrue. Liverpool was designed to be a massive city, and still can be. With the skyscrapers being built up, it would be ideal for a UK government office to be here.. I also believe that if a war or somit broke out Liverpool would be the one who runs the battleground. We did in WW2, it was ran from the Liver Buildings.. Hardly anyone realises what Liverpool did for the world and the UK. The Americans do and Europeans. The thing that anooys me, is the snotty stuck up fuckers that dislike Liverpool because it is powerful and never want to see it controlling everything like it once did. So y roll on any threads over this topic.

I mean the shear size of the city centre knocks out Manchester, Leeds and neraly every other UK city besides London. Manchester has tried to push its city centre as far out as fucken Salford and North and South. Leeds the same. Withn all whats happening to this city seriously gob smacks anyone, in 50 years Liverpool will be one of the Biggest Citys in Europe. So a Governmental office or Move here will have to be done. Makes sense

One other thing please answer these is the following opening in Liverpool

Harvey Nichols
Selfridges
Mayc's of New York
Bloomingdales

And whats happening with Central station tower
Vermont tower
Brunswick Quay
and other skyscraper movements

Queen Victoria said all that?

what? LIVERPOOL the capial, queen victoria once qouted. Liverpool is the Money City of the world or UK... I think it should hold a mass governmental status here.. Fuck Manchester because everything we get they cry like a baby to get it. Liverpool has the biggest port and a massive city with governmental buildings.. Passport office etc.. Liverpool is Londons sister city, the buldings and layout is so similar its untrue. Liverpool was designed to be a massive city, and still can be. With the skyscrapers being built up, it would be ideal for a UK government office to be here.. I also believe that if a war or somit broke out Liverpool would be the one who runs the battleground. We did in WW2, it was ran from the Liver Buildings.. Hardly anyone realises what Liverpool did for the world and the UK. The Americans do and Europeans. The thing that anooys me, is the snotty stuck up fuckers that dislike Liverpool because it is powerful and never want to see it controlling everything like it once did. So y roll on any threads over this topic.

I mean the shear size of the city centre knocks out Manchester, Leeds and neraly every other UK city besides London. Manchester has tried to push its city centre as far out as fucken Salford and North and South. Leeds the same. Withn all whats happening to this city seriously gob smacks anyone, in 50 years Liverpool will be one of the Biggest Citys in Europe. So a Governmental office or Move here will have to be done. Makes sense

:drunk: :crazy2: :? :jippo:

what? LIVERPOOL the capial, queen victoria once qouted. Liverpool is the Money City of the world or UK... I think it should hold a mass governmental status here.. Fuck Manchester because everything we get they cry like a baby to get it. Liverpool has the biggest port and a massive city with governmental buildings.. Passport office etc.. Liverpool is Londons sister city, the buldings and layout is so similar its untrue. Liverpool was designed to be a massive city, and still can be. With the skyscrapers being built up, it would be ideal for a UK government office to be here.. I also believe that if a war or somit broke out Liverpool would be the one who runs the battleground. We did in WW2, it was ran from the Liver Buildings.. Hardly anyone realises what Liverpool did for the world and the UK. The Americans do and Europeans. The thing that anooys me, is the snotty stuck up fuckers that dislike Liverpool because it is powerful and never want to see it controlling everything like it once did. So y roll on any threads over this topic.

I mean the shear size of the city centre knocks out Manchester, Leeds and neraly every other UK city besides London. Manchester has tried to push its city centre as far out as fucken Salford and North and South. Leeds the same. Withn all whats happening to this city seriously gob smacks anyone, in 50 years Liverpool will be one of the Biggest Citys in Europe. So a Governmental office or Move here will have to be done. Makes sense


nice post :)

Good idea, we can keep the magic beans there.

I think that they desperately need to break this logjam of over centralisation of everyting in London, but would like any 'Capital' to be out of the way, purely administrative etc and so somewhere like Preston, Lancaster or York would be the best type of city to accomodate such a body.

Preston? On the right side of the country, but the captial of Lanacshire, so that is against it.
Lancaster? Again on the right side, but too much associattion with "Lancashire" for others to bare.
York? On the wrong side of the country.

Alos existing old towns, York, Preston, etc, would require a new Greenfiesl Whirehall sector on the edge of town. Liverpool can accomodate Parliament and Whitehall in the Docks.

One other thing please answer these is the following opening in Liverpool

Harvey Nichols
Selfridges
Mayc's of New York
Bloomingdales


They will do soon and if te capital os moved to Liverpool they will be falling over themselves to get to Liverpool. BTW, New York approached Liverpolol to have combined Millenium celebrations, not Leeds, Manchester, London, etc.


And whats happening with Central station tower
Vermont tower
Brunswick Quay
and other skyscraper movements

They are waiting build the new Whitehall in them thare docks.

It is not the physical accomodation that would concern me... on that score Liverpool could piss over the other major cities... half the city is derilict. No, it is about the presence overwhelming any notion that the city was anything other than 'the capital'. Politicians and beancounters by the thousands. The city has been deflected from the need to be entrepreneurial by the insuffereable level of quangos now... imagine it magnified 500 times!

Liverpool is not an administrative centre... it was, is and neds to regrow it's commercial and cultural muscle. Bonn and Canberra are hardly noted for their urban dynamism. I am not saying that we are not good or important enough.... quite the contrary.... I say we are potentiallly too good to have out lives and conveniences fucked up having to accommodate politicians and their vein obsessions of self importance, 'security' measures and all of the other crap.

Why are Preston, Lancaster York etc on the wrong or right sides of the country with regards to the issue?... I don't think anyone in Suffolk would care less what side of the country it was on.... maybe the capital could be in Ipswich?

Liverpool is a great city... and can be even greater, we don't need the false kudos of being 'capital' of anything. I have said the same about the NW 'region' as well.... Liverpool capital of t'northwest? sends a shiver down your spine!

BTW, New York approached Liverpolol to have combined Millenium celebrations, not Leeds, Manchester, London,

Well, there you go, case closed, Liverpool should be the seat of the UN, it is clearly the best and most important place ever! :laugh:

what? LIVERPOOL the capial, queen victoria once qouted. Liverpool is the Money City of the world or UK... I think it should hold a mass governmental status here.. Fuck Manchester because everything we get they cry like a baby to get it. Liverpool has the biggest port and a massive city with governmental buildings.. Passport office etc.. Liverpool is Londons sister city, the buldings and layout is so similar its untrue. Liverpool was designed to be a massive city, and still can be. With the skyscrapers being built up, it would be ideal for a UK government office to be here.. I also believe that if a war or somit broke out Liverpool would be the one who runs the battleground. We did in WW2, it was ran from the Liver Buildings.. Hardly anyone realises what Liverpool did for the world and the UK. The Americans do and Europeans. The thing that anooys me, is the snotty stuck up fuckers that dislike Liverpool because it is powerful and never want to see it controlling everything like it once did. So y roll on any threads over this topic.

I mean the shear size of the city centre knocks out Manchester, Leeds and neraly every other UK city besides London. Manchester has tried to push its city centre as far out as fucken Salford and North and South. Leeds the same. Withn all whats happening to this city seriously gob smacks anyone, in 50 years Liverpool will be one of the Biggest Citys in Europe. So a Governmental office or Move here will have to be done. Makes sense

What a fucking retard :weirdo:

April 1st was the other day lads. :jippo:

Dream on :sleepy:

Well, there you go, case closed, Liverpool should be the seat of the UN, it is clearly the best and most important place ever! :laugh:
We all know that Shrewsbury is the best and most important place ever.

what? LIVERPOOL the capial, queen victoria once qouted. Liverpool is the Money City of the world or UK... I think it should hold a mass governmental status here.. Fuck Manchester because everything we get they cry like a baby to get it. Liverpool has the biggest port and a massive city with governmental buildings.. Passport office etc.. Liverpool is Londons sister city, the buldings and layout is so similar its untrue. Liverpool was designed to be a massive city, and still can be.

Liverpool is the ideal location for the capital, for many already stated reasons, that is beyond question. It is also viewed as a neutral city to most others too, so again an ideal choice.

Being aggressive towards Manchester solves nothing. I have the firm impression that Manchester has an obsession about Liverpool, which annoys Liverpudlians - Liverpool is the city Manchester always wanted to be. However Liverpool in general couldn't care about Manchester, it could be 100 miles away, and when they do something good are not envious or aggressive towards the place.

As an aside. Manchester built a white elephant of a ship canal to make an inland city a sea port to rival Liverpool. At the time it was a ludicrous idea and in hindsight it was too, as the port only lasted 80 years. Manchester could have built 3 or 4 Docks at Eastham on the Mersey (the start of the canal and a dock is there right now) and had rail lines directly into a rail terminal at Manchester, which would have been far cheaper and more flexible and circumnavigated Liverpool and the rip-off rail companies which inflated their transport costs. Why take ships inland 46 miles from the sea? In 1972 one ship rammed one of the lock gates and about 20 ships were expensively holed up in Manchester for a week or so. That spelt the end of the port. As many had predicted. BTW, I love the canal – and all the Mersey Dock systems, from Liverpool right up to Manchester. Fascinating.

We all know that Shrewsbury is the best and most important place ever.

Yes, alonside Middle Wallop.

As far as I can tell, and this follows late night discussions with very important people in and out of the industry, Liverpool would be the ideal place to transfer the UK capital to. Some inner, inner circles within parliament, particularly the House of Lords, are very keen to push this onto the political agenda and believe it would make for a more effective strategy than that presently being adopted. "Liverpool would of course be the favoured location for such a move", says Lord Hoffman.

Personally, I am inclined to agree with Sebo. The city may not want any more public sector mandarins. On the other hand, it hasn't done London any harm. The state, as the centre of power, attracts a lot of wealth and influence. In fact, other than the state being located there, I can see few reasons why London would be so successful. I doubt the native cockney population had some special talent about them. And if it was down to location (i.e. proximity to Europe) then surely Dover would be our leading commercial dynamo?

Liverpool already is the capital of the UK. And this may well be given formal credence. Watch this space :cheers:

Why are Preston, Lancaster York etc on the wrong or right sides of the country with regards to the issue?


Only York is.

... I don't think anyone in Suffolk would care less what side of the country it was on


People in Wales, Northern Ireland, etc would, and they are the rebellious ones.

I mean the shear size of the city centre knocks out Manchester, Leeds and neraly every other UK city besides London. Manchester has tried to push its city centre as far out as fucken Salford and North and South. Leeds the same. Withn all whats happening to this city seriously gob smacks anyone, in 50 years Liverpool will be one of the Biggest Citys in Europe. So a Governmental office or Move here will have to be done. Makes sense

Strange that I've lived in Birmingham, Leeds and Glasgow and each them has a much larger city centre.

no wait, I've just been trolled, havn't I?

If there's going to be an "English" Parliment, (no chance) it should be somewhere in England other than London. With the second chamber, the house of Commons, which remains the UK goverment staying in London.

(happy now?)

If there's going to be an "English" Parliment, (no chance) it should be somewhere other than London, with England, err natch. With the second Parliment, the UK staying where it is..

Can you please rewrite that so it makes some sense? :-)

We all know that Shrewsbury is the best and most important place ever.

I would never be so foolish as to claim it was.

If we continue to move towards European Federation, hopefully achieving that within my lifetime, then British / UK nationality will be significantly less important than it is today. It is anachronistic, inefficient and has led to severe decline in many regions - the "UK" only really works these days for the London and South East mega-city, and its chosen mini-capitals outside that zone.

Real power should lie at the centre in Europe, a continental state with only 350million people who possess inter-mixed and common histories and cultures, and that is as diverse in its own way as India and China (both of which have more than three times the population of Europe and a mix of languages, religions and geographies). We cannot compete and survive in this world with our current arrangements within Europe. We need the strength, clout and efficiency that continental-scale Federal Government can bring. We are already squeezed between American military and political might, and growing Asian economic might. A nation that lacks power is a feeble thing, and I want to be part of, governed by and represented by a potent state that can serve my interests and defend them.

If the main duties any state requires are pooled on a continental basis (economy, defence, foreign policy, trade - as with America, a truly Federal system where a lot of power resides within the States themselves) then at what other levels should other decisions be made? Should we unleash the energy of a Europe of the regions? After all, with a powerful and united Europe, who really needs these anachronistic, inefficient and hugely expensive national Governments in France, England, Germany, Italy, Spain? They are of the 19th Century, and by the end of the 20th Century had demonstrated their growing futility and powerlessness. Look at a child's atlas showing the changing political geography of Europe, from the Romans through to the modern nation states. It is always in flux, and while the nation states of Europe regard themselves as indispensable and permanent, I think people will lose interest and faith in them within 20 years.

So, I think that we should have the strategic decisions made on a continental level, and then devolve nearly everything else to regions / city regions - making Liverpool (pop 2m, poss more depending on boundaries) one of the constituent states within Europe.

What of England? Britain? The "UK"? Make it looser, a consultative arrangement where the nations (eg Wales) regions (eg Cumbria) and city-regions (eg Liverpool) can pool and share decisions where it makes sense to or for reasons of economy. For example, it might be that in areas where it is efficient to have shared policies or services, various regions or all could choose to join together. There might, for example, be two DTI's, effectively private companies competing to provide Industrial Policy Advice and Small Business Support services to the regions. Given the spread of English, such companies might also provide services to mainland-European regions as well, on a contract basis. Regions would subscribe on 10 year contracts, depending upon the quality of service and value for money. Whitehall would no longer bleed us of taxes and deliver shit in return. Whitehall would be closed - those offices would be filled with lawyers, accountants and Chinese tourists in new hotels.

We'd get better services, better value, and be able to build true European democratic societies. The UK is too big, too unwieldy, and has led to huge neglect and decline for many of its regions and cities.

Where could a small British (or British Isles) consultative chamber (and small executive - just a few hundred employees) be located? Well if Liverpool is home to a city regional government, I think the British Isles one should locate on the waterfront at Woodside, as part of a policy of stretching the CBD across the River.

As far as I can tell, and this follows late night discussions with very important people in and out of the industry, Liverpool would be the ideal place to transfer the UK capital to. Some inner, inner circles within parliament, particularly the House of Lords, are very keen to push this onto the political agenda and believe it would make for a more effective strategy than that presently being adopted. "Liverpool would of course be the favoured location for such a move", says Lord Hoffman.

Blabbersmoke, what does this actually mean. "believe it would make for a more effective strategy than that presently being adopted". What is the present strategy?


Personally, I am inclined to agree with Sebo. The city may not want any more public sector mandarins. On the other hand, it hasn't done London any harm. The state, as the centre of power, attracts a lot of wealth and influence. In fact, other than the state being located there, I can see few reasons why London would be so successful.

London has both: the capital and the financial centre. Other countries have realised that that is counter productive to all the country. They both make London a magnet, which results in a brain drain from all the regions. What has made the South East so successful from being a rural backwater - the Northern and Midland cities were dynamos of industry while the south was market towns - is that high tech companies are attracted because of research facilities. The mandarins in London would not have anything more than an hour away from London. Most research facilities are South East based.

It is no co-incidence that the fortunes of the UK waned when the financial power of the industrial belt of the UK moved to the industrially naive predominantly rural South. The industrial cities and regions did not fight back and the bumpkins took control. Quite naturally they feathered their own nest. Many South easterners look at anyone outside of the South East as slow and dumb. That fact that the event that catapulted the world forwards, the industrial revolution, was created by people in the Midland, North of England and Scotland, totally passes them by. They tend not to like Liverpudlians as they can’t get one across them or find they are one step ahead of them. A middles class Southerner is confident, but a Liverpudlian who is confident is “cocky” to them. He is out of his place in society according to their psyche. This view is from personal experience and speaking to countless others who have the same experience.

The point is that the capital should be out of London. And I very much doubt, simply because of the central location of Liverpool, the current contemptuous attitude of London would materialise if Liverpool if made the capital.

Franco attempted to centralise everything in Madrid so he could have control, but even he couldn’t fully do it with big Barcelona not having any of it.
Why doesnt the north of England learn a lesson from this then and instead of trying to get the capital moved up north (which isnt going to happen), set itself up as a serious contender to London. No matter how good the northern cities are they will not be able to individually match the competitiveness of London or serioulsy influence decisions made in Westminster but just think for a sec and consider how much clout the northern cities together might have. To me it doesnt seem too far fetched to imagine a mega-urban region stretching from Liverpool to Leeds with an economic and political clout that, while not displacing London, can at least be considered a serious contender to it.
I think one of the major barriers to achieving this besides infrastructure, communications etc appears to be an unwillingness for the Northern cities to work together. Why is there this Manchester - Liverpool rivalry?
"Fuck Manchester because everything we get they cry like a baby to get it."
Why do the northern cities seem to all hate each other? Is it inconceivable in most people's minds that they could maybe one day live in Leeds and commute to Manchester or even Liverpool in the future? Of course for such things to happen investment would be necessary and that has to come at least in part from Westminster. That demonstrates exactly what I'm saying though, in order for such investment to be more forthcoming all the northern cities should be putting pressure on the government. That seems to be the only way to secure funding for the region as a whole.

Will Alsop as well as the Northern Way have been peddling that particular plecebo. If you only see cities as spatial entities from which to derive equal numbers of factories as the M4 corridor then it may apeal. If you appreciate how cities actually generate wealth through the mass they acrue and the identity they provide then you can see that such a scehme would be dangerous as you lose too much genuine dynamic.

I am no longer as enamoured with the european project as you still evidently are poli. trading and political blocks are as obsolete as the notion of the nation in an ever iincreasing global community. it must be remembered that the 'North West' is an essential part of the statist inspired 'Europe of the regions'. Actually the 'Block' system is proving to be a barrier to international integration as the recent link I put up about mandelson helps to highlight.

The Napoleonic codes that so much of European law is based is also extremely suspect, assuming as it does that everything in the end deferes to the state, where as in the UK at least the notion of the state being the servant of the people is given some credence.


Given enough freedom Liverpool will be able to develop the tools to improve itself... or make a fuck of it and hasten its demise! It is not a coincidence that Liverpool thrived and became such an important player in the only period of real free trade the world has seen... until now! The only barrier to this is government control, so why would it being based here be any good, for us, and the other northern cities who need to be liberated?

The desperation to wrench power away from London has led me down some dangerous and dark alleys over the years and I now feel that both the nation and the 'europe of the regions' are as dangerous and counterproductive for the city as each other. Over time I think it is the international institutions that will be best placed to sort trade and cultural issues... and perhaps even the UN could finally manage to undertake the roll it is supposed to with regards to sorting out disputes between nations etc leaving the wealth generators, i.e. cities, to get on with developing their potential?

Perhaps we SHOULD make a UDI and be 'capital' of ourselves?

Why doesnt the north of England learn a lesson from this then and instead of trying to get the capital moved up north (which isnt going to happen),

I wouldn’t dismiss that out of hand, although the campaign hasn't started to roll yet. People are really pissed off with over centralisation and one city sucking all the lifeblood out of the rest. It is not even good for London never mind the rest. As I pointed out, it is the solidity of the country which is also at stake, as the UK is slowly falling apart - that is a fact.


set itself up as a serious contender to London. No matter how good the northern cities are they will not be able to individually match the competitiveness of London or serioulsy influence decisions made in Westminster but just think for a sec and consider how much clout the northern cities together might have.

IMO, they will never work together. When the new regional assemblies come together, maybe the North West assembly will knock the heads together of Liverpool and Manchester, sort out the airport problem of two competing airports, etc.


To me it doesnt seem too far fetched to imagine a mega-urban region stretching from Liverpool to Leeds with an economic and political clout that, while not displacing London, can at least be considered a serious contender to it.


That is far fetched. 

I think one of the major barriers to achieving this besides infrastructure, communications etc appears to be an unwillingness for the Northern cities to work together. Why is there this Manchester - Liverpool rivalry?


Because they are so near and yet very different origins of the peoples of both with different cultures too. The difference between Leeds and Sheffield is minimal to Liverpool Manchester


"Fuck Manchester because everything we get they cry like a baby to get it."
Why do the northern cities seem to all hate each other?


I don’t think they do. Liverpool couldn’t give hoot about the rest, but Manchester does have a Liverpool obsession it needs to address.


Is it inconceivable in most people's minds that they could maybe one day live in Leeds and commute to Manchester or even Liverpool in the future? Of course for such things to happen investment would be necessary and that has to come at least in part from Westminster. That demonstrates exactly what I'm saying though, in order for such investment to be more forthcoming all the northern cities should be putting pressure on the government. That seems to be the only way to secure funding for the region as a whole.

You missed the point. Why is London sucking the life out of the rest? Because of over centralisation. The people in charge want everything in London or a short trip outside. Look at the South East pre 1945 and look at it now. The rural people did not suddenly acquire this wonderful commercial ability and the revolutionary North suddenly become stupid and useless. What made the shift? Pouring government money into Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds will only pug a gap (hush money to shut them up), in the long term matters must radically change to alter the climate – and only de-centralisation can do that. The new regional assemblies are the first step, but the capital out of London will be a major one to redress the balance and create stability in the UK.

The problem with the UK is London and over centralisation

- 26 per cent of the UK population (60m) lives in London/south east on 8.5 per cent of the land

- GDP per head (UK=100) in London is 130 compared with 77.3 in the north east and 86.9 in the northwest, a far higher variation than in the US or Europe

- 509 of 1,000 people on the Sunday Times rich list (2001) were based in London

- Threequarters of UK venture capital businesses are in London

- The cost of living is 12 per cent above UK average, house prices 80 per cent above - 60,000 "key workers" will flee in the next ten years

- 25 per cent of working Londoners have a degree; in the north east it is ten per cent, north west 13 per cent

- Average work commute in London is 56 minutes, UK average 25 minutes. Use of the Tube is set to rise 20 per cent in next ten years.

- Manchester lost 15.1 per cent of its population since 1981; London/south east added eight per cent

- In 1964, 60 per cent of UK's biggest companies were London-based, now it is 90 per cent

- In the 1970s, Londoners earned 17 per cent more than the UK average; by 2000 it was 31 per cent.

I fully agree with your basic premis. London, far from being the goose that lays the golden eggs, as it were, for the nation, it is a leach that bleeeds the rest of the country, especially it's formerly powerful northern cities, dry.

The government should be moved somewhere else, I just don't agree that this should be to Liverpool, or any other big city... we have a different role to craft.

To add a little to my EU comments, if the gov where indeed to move then that would automatically redress many of the problems we all perceive with GB/England, so we could look at how we could work with that set of relationships. But every area, country etc, has to have multiple relations and 'regional' relationships. Just as we have said that Manc has a Liv/manc set of relationships it also has a Manc/leeds focus... and just as we have to work with manc on some things we also have the Bay Area to foster. same goes for larger areas. There is still a relationship with Europe to explore, but what about the USA, South America, the Commonwealth... ALL of these permutations need to be worked up.

I don't understand the notion either that governments play the central role in well being and wealth generation. They can disturb natural flow, but if this is being facilitated rather than commanded then they become less important... why would the future of Liverpool and Manchester be dependent on the beancounters of the NWRA? Strange notions... the only advantage for parliament being in Liverpool would be if we decided to play the same twat games that London currently plays.

Kids in Riot.. fuck you! What it must be the fact that your not a scouser and your a wank. Give it 50 years and we'll see, listen EH and other things are purposely trying to stop Liverpool being back at Number one. Its obvious, Manchester sits there like a confused child. It has no city and no identity. Swamped with diffferent nationaalities and fucked up buildings. Imean Deansgate Tower "WHAT THE FUCK WERE THEY THINKIN" sad thing is the developers HQ is in Liverpool.. LOL so the high rise skyscrapers in Manchester both there new ones and Birmingham, London and Leeds.. there all Scouse ran. Now what does tha say then... since the 80's the city has sat in an isolated coma, now revived Manchester only is shitting one.. Leeds, and the other now the citys power and what it can and has done. Manchester loves the title they give themselve capital of the North "BOLLOCKS"

Being aggressive towards Manchester solves nothing. I have the firm impression that Manchester has an obsession about Liverpool, which annoys Liverpudlians - Liverpool is the city Manchester always wanted to be. However Liverpool in general couldn't care about Manchester, it could be 100 miles away, and when they do something good are not envious or aggressive towards the place.

Resisting the temptation to get on my high horse, and as a Mancunian, this statement is completely untrue.

In which way does Manchester feel that Liverpool is the city it's always wanted to be? The only thing I can think of is a bit of a bigger river. Seriously.......

(Edit...and Merseyrail's pretty cool too. We need one of those....) :)

This would never happen, there would be a huge shift pattern in the UK, especially if London companies suddenly shifted to Liverpool then surely most of the employees would move with it. The impact for something so drastic would be dramatic.
Places such as North Wales would lose their beauty when towns up there pretty much over night would become cities to accomodate the "boom" in liverpool, hence having an impact on houses prices yet again.
Why does a capital city have to be in the centre of the country anyway? Washington DC, Ottawa, Canberra, Berlin, Moscow just to name a few are doing just fine, and if there is ant rivalry it is not between capitals.
And to prove that you don't need to be a capital in order to pull in the big ones, then take a look at NYC, Chicago, Toronto, Sydney, Melbourne, Barcelona, LA, Auckland do I need to go on? So there really is no excuse Liverpool.

This would never happen, there would be a huge shift pattern in the UK, especially if London companies suddenly shifted to Liverpool then surely most of the employees would move with it. The impact for something so drastic would be dramatic.
Places such as North Wales would lose their beauty when towns up there pretty much over night would become cities to accomodate the "boom" in liverpool, hence having an impact on houses prices yet again.
Why does a capital city have to be in the centre of the country anyway? Washington DC, Ottawa, Canberra, Berlin, Moscow just to name a few are doing just fine, and if there is ant rivalry it is not between capitals.
And to prove that you don't need to be a capital in order to pull in the big ones, then take a look at NYC, Chicago, Toronto, Sydney, Melbourne, Barcelona, LA, Auckland do I need to go on? So there really is no excuse Liverpool.

This notion hasn't come from Liverpool though!! And saying that Liverpool is looking for an excuse (what for?) is way off the mark.

It's about shifting the economic balance of the UK, where there's still a large economic fault line between the South East/London and the rest of the country. The UK is relatively unique in having this problem, certainly amongst developed nations.

Of course, geographically shifting government departments isn't the answer.

[QUOTE=John-MK]
Being aggressive towards Manchester solves nothing. I have the firm impression that Manchester has an obsession about Liverpool, which annoys Liverpudlians - Liverpool is the city Manchester always wanted to be. However Liverpool in general couldn't care about Manchester, it could be 100 miles away, and when they do something good are not envious or aggressive towards the place.[QUOTE]

Ignoring the temptation to get on my high horse, and as a Mancunian, this statement is completely untrue.

In which way does Manchester feel that Liverpool is the city it's always wanted to be? The only thing I can think of is a bit of a bigger river. Seriously.......

I don't want to get into the Manchester v Liverpool thing, but I will for fun. To say Manchester does not have an obsession about Liverpool, and does not try to sneer Liverpool at every opportunity is pure nonsense. They clearly do. Making jokes about car theft in Liverpool when Manchester had the UKs highest rate I thought was hilarious. They do themselves no favours.

It is best for Manchester just to keep quiet and keep up the good work there, and there has been some good work too in many aspects. Climb up the ladder on your own merit not by standing on the fingers of others on the ladder.

Liverpool people are of a different origin. Being seaport far more cosmopolitan. Liverpool was populated by the Welsh, Irish, Lancashire, Scandinavians and Dutch (much understated in Liverpool), etc, etc, hence why Liverpool has an accent totally different to the surroundings, while the Manchester accent is very similar to the surrounding Lancashire. Manchester took its population from the immediate surrounds. Liverpool is a commercial city and Manchester industrial. Quite different again.

Liverpool is much nicer city in many respects with far nicer buildings, waterfront, dock areas etc. You can walk 5 miles in the south of the city through parks and gardens full of roses and down a riverfront promenade too – London can’t even match that. Manchester simply cannot compete on that score. That is quite clear. Huge swathes of Liverpool are World Heritage sites, so that tells you something. Also the potential in Liverpool is enormous if the Docks sites are developed properly - many cities in Europe would drool to be given that watery legacy. The Liverpool Docks have been equated to the building of the pyramids. The pyramids did nothing useful at all, unlike Liverpool Docks.

Liverpool history is also, after London’s, the most interesting of any city in the UK. Second city of the empire, port for America. Do a Google on Civil War, Liverpool, Confederate. See how much Liverpool was involved in that war with the first shot of the war fired by a Liverpool made cannon and the last act and the last official lowering of the Confederate flag by the CSS Shenandoah in the Mersey – which sailed 17,000 miles from Alaska to surrender at Liverpool, with a mainly Liverpool crew, after sinking about 40 Union ships. The most successful war ship in history was built at Lairds and crewed by a mainly Liverpool crew, sinking 65 ships – the CSS Alabama. The only Battle that troubled Churchill was the battle of the Atlantic, when he wrote that it was the only time he thought we may lose the war – the battle was centred in Liverpool and ran from there – go and see the war rooms, all still there. Most of the immigrants to the US travelled via Liverpool too. The slave trade. I could go on and on.

Then the arts and music too. In music unrivalled, with more No 1 hits by Liverpool artists than any other city, including massive London. Liverpool also changed world popular music in the 1960s. Football? Part of the culture of both cities. Everton have more seasons in the top-flight than any other, scored more goals, won more games and accumulated more points. Liverpool need no speaking for. The two Liverpool clubs even outdo London which has a multitude of top clubs. The most successful city in Football in the UK – fact.

Manchester has a lot of catch up if it wants to beat Liverpool in many departments. However it is not worth it. Manchester should do what Manchester is good at and forget Liverpool. And stop pretending it is something it is not. People go there and expect more and leave disappointed wondering what they were all shouting about – it is no Mote Carlo or New York. .

Bill Bryson said “it is an airport with a city attached”.

This would never happen, there would be a huge shift pattern in the UK, especially if London companies suddenly shifted to Liverpool then surely most of the employees would move with it. The impact for something so drastic would be dramatic.
Places such as North Wales would lose their beauty when towns up there pretty much over night would become cities to accomodate the "boom" in liverpool, hence having an impact on houses prices yet again.
Why does a capital city have to be in the centre of the country anyway? Washington DC, Ottawa, Canberra, Berlin, Moscow just to name a few are doing just fine, and if there is ant rivalry it is not between capitals.
And to prove that you don't need to be a capital in order to pull in the big ones, then take a look at NYC, Chicago, Toronto, Sydney, Melbourne, Barcelona, LA, Auckland do I need to go on? So there really is no excuse Liverpool.

It is clear you never grasped the points being put across.

why do these threads always happen in the liverpool forum?! it's so annoying! (and yes i know who started it but it isn't always the case)

With respect John-MK, I'm not reading that just now, it looks like an unnecessary rant.

Jokes about Liverpool's crime rate don't come from Manchester, they come from a national (southern?) media, so please don't direct it to Manchester. This is wrong.

I've been in Manchester for 37 years, and I've never detected any serious animosity against Liverpool from 99.9% of the people I've ever met. Kinship, maybe, but rarely anything else.

This notion hasn't come from Liverpool though!! And saying that Liverpool is looking for an excuse (what for?) is way off the mark.

It's about shifting the economic balance of the UK, where there's still a large economic fault line between the South East/London and the rest of the country.


Not only that, cementing the divided fragmenting UK. The political aspects are more imprtant.


The UK is relatively unique in having this problem, certainly amongst developed nations.

Of course, geographically shifting government departments isn't the answer.

It certainly will redress some of the imbalance that is clear. It is also good for London too. The emphasis on London occurred because of centralisation and London departments all associated with them being the South East. They even arrogantly say the "Home Counties", those surrounding London, as if all others are "away". That was the catalyst that made London the magnet.

Economically matters will change if the capital is moved. However it is the political direction that is more important, rather than shifting of money.

Inward looking, anally retentive London clearly has no idea about the rest of the UK, that is why the imbalance is there. That is why the UK could not compete with similar European countries in many aspects.

Since the demise of the industrial North, accelerated and cheered by the south (the miners strike was Southern Little Middle England beating down the dirty Northerners), all the UK has done is struggle. The South East has proven it clearly hasn’t a clue. Time to take the power away from them.

With all due respect John-MK, all the Manchester/Liverpool ranting seems to be coming from yourself. Maybe the obsession lies closer to home.

Originally posted by kebabmonster With all due respect John-MK, all the Manchester/Liverpool ranting seems to be coming from yourself. Maybe the obsession lies closer to home.

Perhaps but there does seem to be something of an obsession with Liverpool in the Manchester forum as demonstrated by the number of people from that forum posting here in comparison with members of this forum posting there. I wonder what that is about.

Paul McCartney said that Liverpool is the capital of the Universe.

21CL stated aim was for Liverpool to be universally acknowledged as the greatest city on earth (bit of a step down)

John M-K wants Liverpool to be capital of the UK (a further step down)

There must be something in the water up there. More likely it's the magic in the air.

In terms of the statements above, I think John's is the most likely. I wouldn't personally bet on it happening but I don't see such an objective as being preposterous. In many respects, Liverpool already has the architecture and 'feel' associated with a capital city. St George's Hall lends itself to an appropriate legislative chamber and is named after the patron saint of England. On reflection, and in the context of the above statements, capital of England seems even more acheiveable!

I don't agree with people who claim that being a capital city would not be right for Liverpool because it would stultify its entrepreneurialism. That type of thinking seems a bit black and white to me. Successful capital cities combine both and the exemplar of a city that does this effortlessly, is, as always, Paris and London doesn't do too badly either!

For a short time, during its 2nd city of the Empire days, Liverpool was setting itself up to take on London. History is about the coalescence of events and opportunities and during that period, the empire, the dominance of the seas in world trade etc positioned Liverpool at the crest of a wave that broke mid way through the 20th Century. Until recently it has been downhill all the way for both the city and the country. New opportunities are in the process of coalescing as demonstrated by the appetite of people to build things in the city, visit it and move to it. The city is starting to work its magic once again. I personally don't think it will lead to Liverpool becoming a capital city. My reading of Liverpool's mission is more along the lines of a city attempting to shake off the tight little, right little island in which it finds itself situated in order to embrace a much wider world. IMO it's no accident that nearly all the major buildings face outwards to horizons across the sea!

Paul McCartney said that Liverpool is the capital of the Universe.

For a short time, during its 2nd city of the Empire days, Liverpool was setting itself up to take on London. History is about the coalescence of events and opportunities and during that period, the empire, the dominance of the seas in world trade etc positioned Liverpool at the crest of a wave that broke mid way through the 20th Century. Until recently it has been downhill all the way for both the city and the country. New opportunities are in the process of coalescing as demonstrated by the appetite of people to build things in the city, visit it and move to it. The city is starting to work its magic once again. I personally don't think it will lead to Liverpool becoming a capital city. My reading of Liverpool's mission is more along the lines of a city attempting to shake off the tight little, right little island in which it finds itself situated in order to embrace a much wider world. IMO it's no accident that nearly all the major buildings face outwards to horizons across the sea!

Indeedy.

"Liverpool at the crest of a wave that broke mid way through the 20th Century. Until recently it has been downhill all the way for both the city and the country."

But did we fall or where we pushed.....?

"Resurgum"

:cheers:

Indeedy.

"Liverpool at the crest of a wave that broke mid way through the 20th Century. Until recently it has been downhill all the way for both the city and the country."

But did we fall or where we pushed.....?

"Resurgum"

:cheers:

Perhaps another 'coalescence'?! The city was virtually bankrupt as a result of the war. Most of the entrepreneurs had gone or were shipping out. The city centre was badly damaged by bombing raids. The city's absence of vision can be seen in the decision to demolish and not rebuild the Custom House. There were too many problems to be solved at the same time and the war and the birth of the welfare state understandably shaped expectations towards solutions being state-led. Europe happened, aeroplanes as the dominant form of long-distance travel happened. The city's reputation of being 'strike-prone' established itself in the nation's psyche and so on... All of which is now history. Great cities have the ability to reposition themselves. History suggests that Liverpool reinvents itself every 50 years or so and each time, it's bigger and better than the previous version. It's in the middle of this process at the moment. I can't wait to see what finally emerges!

Indeedy.

"Liverpool at the crest of a wave that broke mid way through the 20th Century. Until recently it has been downhill all the way for both the city and the country."

But did we fall or where we pushed.....?
:cheers:

Both. Started falling and then pushed. Liverpool was raped, especially by successive Tory administrations; Thatchers was the obvious one. Keep the rebels down - they even supported, against Westminster’s rules, the Confederate states of America, with the unofficial Confederate embassy in Rumford Place. The US consul in Liverpool wrote there are more Confederate flags flying above Liverpool than in Richmond, Virginia. Natural rebels that had to be put down, as the 1981 riots proved when it was so aggressive it shocked the government into giving Merseyside its own minister - more a PR gimmick than anything as the city still slide futher down as little investment was forthcoming.

Sheffield is built on steel, a one industry city. To destroy the city you buy steel from cheaper places around the world, as Thatcher made happen, and Sheffield was near destroyed. Simple to do. Liverpool is commercial city with a mixed economy. How do you destroy the dirty northerners in that city? You launch a sneer campaign – very simple. From the lovable witty people who had the mop tops and took the world music scene by storm, to public enemy No. 1 in few short years. Investment virtually stopped. A city with a mixed economy collapsed. One of the few in modern history. Southerners viewed Liverpool as a slum because the London based media said so.

At my local pub in a wealthy part of London, I had friends from all over, US, Canada, Australia, South Africa, etc, even the odd Londoner. One nice fellow, Joe, worked for the US navy, and was posted in central London. When the tall ships came in to Liverpool from Boston he was posted to Liverpool to represent USA interests. He was warned by people in London that Liverpool was a sum and don’t go. When he came back he said he had a great time the place was very nice, full of historic docks and people very friendly constantly buying him drinks when they knew he was associated with the tall ships. He couldn’t understand why they had such a negative opinion of Liverpool and then found out none of the people who sneered the place had ever been there. Typical. Samuel L Jackson had the same experience when he made the film in Liverpool, the 51st State. He slagged them on the Parkinson Show.

With all due respect John-MK, all the Manchester/Liverpool ranting seems to be coming from yourself. Maybe the obsession lies closer to home.

I just react, not intiate it. I just tell it as it is.

In many respects, Liverpool already has the architecture and 'feel' associated with a capital city. St George's Hall lends itself to an appropriate legislative chamber

That is Liverpool's. St. Georges Hall was voted, by the European Architectural Commission, the finest public building constructed in Europe in the past 200 years. It was the first building in the world to be air conditioned. They can build their own buildings on the multitude of space on the dock complexes - all waiting for them to give a perfect iconic waterfront.

My reading of Liverpool's mission is more along the lines of a city attempting to shake off the tight little, right little island in which it finds itself situated in order to embrace a much wider world. IMO it's no accident that nearly all the major buildings face outwards to horizons across the sea!

Yep. What made Liverpool was looking out to sea and dealing with everyone across it. A city barely on the shores of the UK wanting to get off. When it tried to look inland it failed. Now it is again looking out to sea and ignoring the rest. US tourists flock in and they like the accent, not too dissimilar to their own being nasally, and don’t sneer it at all.

why do these threads always happen in the liverpool forum?! it's so annoying! (and yes i know who started it but it isn't always the case)
90% of the time its Liverpool forumers starting them.

If the whole government infrastructure was moved from bog old London and plonked in Liverpool... or Manc, Leeds, Birmingham, it would swamp them.

A much leaner administrative structre may not destabalise these cities, but there is even less chance of cutting these bloated fiefdoms than moving the 'capital' itself!

If it ever did happen as I say I would rather it went to an 'administrative' town.... Bonn or Canberra type! Keep the bastards our of the way and allow everyone to get on with their lives!

We should not be picking up the centralisation that exists in London and dumping it all in one provincial city. It should be distributed out fairly.

What the bollocks is this thread? All i'm seeing is shit dribbling from John-Mx's mouth.

What it must be the fact that your not a scouser and your a wank.

What?

Liverpool being back at Number one. Its obvious,

It never was at number one?

Manchester sits there like a confused child.

eh??

It has no city and no identity.

What the bollocking hell?

Swamped with diffferent nationaalities

Rascist?

Half of that didn't even make sense, please.

All i'm seeing here is lost liverpudlians on their high horses because Liverpool has had quite a significant past. Grow up. Many cities have had equally significant histories, namely Manchester and London - Doesn't mean they're the greatest and always will be the greatest cities on Earth. Every city has a unique identity, don't fool yourself just because Liverpool has been noted as being a city of character that it's unique in this.

There seems to be an ever growing number of retarded Liverpool forumers - but i know there's some respectable ones too. I wish the respectable amoung you would stop these idiots chatting crap! Doesn't it embarrass you?!

John-mk - think what you like about Manchester being obsessed with Liverpool. But from where i'm standing, the only obsessive behaviour i see is in you insisting that Liverpool is the greatest and Manchester's a wannabee.

If the whole government infrastructure was moved from bog old London and plonked in Liverpool... or Manc, Leeds, Birmingham, it would swamp them.

It wouldn't happen overnight, so they can't be swamped. It would take a 5 year plan or whatever.

If it ever did happen as I say I would rather it went to an 'administrative' town.... Bonn or Canberra type! Keep the bastards our of the way and allow everyone to get on with their lives!

Admin towns: Canberra, Brazilia, etc, were build mainly from green fields. Putting the admin in an existing extablished city will not mean a souless place. I see Berlin never became a ghost town.

All i'm seeing here is lost liverpudlians on their high horses because Liverpool has had quite a significant past.
:yes:

And we've seen it all before ;)

What an odd thread. This was alright when I checked yesterday. Seems to have been hijacked by Tarby-and Paul Calf types. Get rid.

What the bollocks is this thread? All i'm seeing is shit dribbling from John-Mx's mouth.

<Snip quotes>

You are confused. I never wrote any of them.

All i'm seeing here is lost liverpudlians on their high horses because Liverpool has had quite a significant past. Grow up. Many cities have had equally significant histories, namely Manchester and London


History. London? Yes. Manchester? Please.


- Doesn't mean they're the greatest and always will be the greatest cities on Earth. Every city has a unique identity, don't fool yourself just because Liverpool has been noted as being a city of character that it's unique in this.


Yes, Manchester has its identity and it should realise what it is and play on its own strengths, not attempt to sneer others who are more successful.

[/QUOTE]
John-mk - think what you like about Manchester being obsessed with Liverpool. But from where i'm standing, the only obsessive behaviour i see is in you insisting that Liverpool is the greatest and Manchester's a wannabee.[/QUOTE]

I’m not obsessed with Liverpool but will defend it when it is unfairly attacked. Liverpool has many problems which are being addressed, some far too slowly we all know, but problems no greater than similar sized cities. However its plus points are far greater than other similar sized cities without a doubt.

Manchester? What I like? The Ship canal and the old docks, which only a small part is actually in Manchester I believe - a part of the Pomonia coaster docks. The canal was a white elephant indeed. However I like it when ocean going ships slide through the countryside and towns and into a dock complex 46 miles from the sea. They filled in some of the old docks, which I do not forgive them for, and I don’t forgive anyone who fills any docks in, as there is no need for it. Widnes had docks, either side of the bridge and all are now obliterated. Widnes had the first rail/dock terminal in the world – all gone. Open contempt for history. Disgusting. Anything new in Manchester? Only the conversion of the rail station to the G-Mex Centre. Which is old really. They did a good job with that, playing on what good was already there. Utilising a legacy.

MK, have you been to Manchester for twenty years?

@John-mk

This situation reminds me of a poem by Carol Anne Duffy, although i hate her, i think this poem's relevant towards your behaviour.


Do Wah Diddy Diddy, Baby Love, Oh Pretty Woman
were in the Top Ten that month, October, and the Beatles
were everywhere else. I can give you the B-side
of the Supremes one. Hang on. Come See About Me?
I lived in a kind of fizzing hope. Gargling
with Vimto. The clever smell of my satchel. Convent girls.
I pulled my hair forward with a steel comb that I blew
like Mick, my lips numb as a two-hour snog.

No snags. The Nile rises in April. Blue and White.
The humming-bird's song is made by its wings, which beat
so fast that they blur in flight. I knew the capitals,
the Kings and Queens, the dates. In class, the white sleeve
of my shirt saluted again and again. Sir!...Correct.
Later, I whooped at the side of my bike, a cowboy,
mounted it running in one jump. I sped down Dyke Hill,
no hands, famous, learning, dominus domine dominum.

Dave Dee Dozy...Try me. Come on. My mother kept my mascot Gonk
on the TV set for a year. And the photograph. I look
so brainy you'd think I'd just had a bath. The blazer.
The badge. The tie. The first chord of A Hard Day's Night
loud on my head. I ran to the Spinney in my prize shoes,
up Churchill Way, up Nelson Drive, over pink pavements
that girls chalked on, in a blue evening; and I stamped
the pawprints of badgers and skunks in the mud. My country.

I want it back. The captain. The one with all the answers. Bzz.
My name was in red on Lucille Green's jotter. I smiled
as wide as a child who went missing on the way home
from school. The keeny. I say to my stale wife
Six hits by Dusty Springfield. I say to my boss A pint!
How can we know the dancer from the dance? Nobody.
My thick kids wince. Name the Prime Minister of Rhodesia.
My country. How many florins in a pound?

Figure it out for yourself ;)

To paraphrase......

What the bollocks is this thread? All i'm seeing is shit
It never was at number one?

What the bollocking hell?

Rascist?

Half of that didn't even make sense, please.

All i'm seeing here is lost liverpudlians on their high horses because Liverpool has had quite a significant past - Doesn't mean they're the greatest and always will be the greatest cities on Earth. Every city has a unique identity, don't fool yourself just because Liverpool has been noted as being a city of character that it's unique in this.

There seems to be an ever growing number of retarded Liverpool forumers - but i know there's some respectable ones too. I wish the respectable amoung you would stop these idiots chatting crap! Doesn't it embarrass you?!

(Like Manchester press.)

John-mk - think what you like about Manchester being obsessed with Liverpool. But from where i'm standing, the only obsessive behaviour i see is in you insisting that Liverpool is the greatest and Manchester's a wannabee.

(Just like Manchester press.)





To quote `Condi` Liverpool is an `Extraordinary City`

Manchester should however build an Iconic building sometime whenever.

Maybe then you`ll be able to pull the pubic hair out of your teeth.

But then it`s all bollocks and balls to me.

What an odd thread. This was alright when I checked yesterday. Seems to have been hijacked by Tarby-and Paul Calf types. Get rid.
Damn right...

History. London? Yes. Manchester? Please.
Look up the definition of history.

Yes, Manchester has its identity and it should realise what it is and play on its own strengths, not attempt to sneer others who are more successful.
More successful? Really? Liverpool's history may be more differentiated than Manchester's but by no means more successful. This is reflected by the fact that Manchester is currently performing much better than Liverpool in most aspects.

I’m not obsessed with Liverpool but will defend it when it is unfairly attacked.
You arnt defending though... your attacking. And with very little success I might add.

The Ship canal and the old docks, which only a small part is actually in Manchester I believe
You going to tell forumers who live in Bootle and Knowsley that they are NOT Liverpool forumers? You are going to tell somebody who lives in the PR1 postcode zone that they dont live in Preston. Look up the dictionary definition of a city... and check out the various governmental and institutional definitions of Manchester while your at it.

However its plus points are far greater than other similar sized cities without a doubt.
Name them.

But then it`s all bollocks and balls to me.
Clearly... :sly:

Now come on Accy, I well remember you saying that you would like to see`Preston` being the third biggest city in the northwest behind `Manchester and Liverpool`

Do you not think that you could do better.

Liverpool / Preston / Manchester.

:) :cheers:

Provincial Queens :)

MK, have you been to Manchester for twenty years?

I used to go there regularly on the Heathrow shuttle. In the end I drove up as it was quicker, as both airports are too far from the city centres.

Look up the definition of history.


I read it there is little around Manchester way.


More successful? Really? Liverpool's history may be more differentiated than Manchester's but by no means more successful. This is reflected by the fact that Manchester is currently performing much better than Liverpool in most aspects.


Liverrpool history is only supceded by London.


You arnt defending though... your attacking. And with very little success I might add.


Attack is the best form of defence.

Name them.

Pietari gave you nice little list.

Current investment boom of £3bn+
Englands fastest growing city outside London.
City centre pop growth of 10% a year.
50,000+ jobs created in the last five years.
House price gain of 22% in the year to April 2005 (Halifax)
New retail district, convention centre and arena, cruise liner terminal and airport expansion & £38m rail hub.
UK’s second-fastest growing conference destination.
£920m Grosvenor shopping complex & £75m Metquarter
9 new hotels by 2008 for ECoC.

Liverpool's history may be more differentiated than Manchester's but by no means more successful.

Here is a little list for you, Se what Liverpool gave to the world:

1639 Jeremiah Horrocks of Toxteth: the first observation of the transit of Venus
1648 The first recorded cargo from America lands in Liverpool
1679 Liverpool's mayor founds the first charity for sailors
1715 Old Dock in Canning Place is the world’s first wet dock controlled by floodgates
1758 Building of the Lyceum, the first circulating library
1763 The first lighthouses to use parabolic mirrors are built by Liverpool's dock Master at Hoylake and Bidston
1770 Work begins on the Leeds-Liverpool canal, the longest and highest in Britain, finished in 1816
1776 Ether is first used as an anaesthetic
1776 The World First Lifeboat Station at Formby Point
1786 Great Howard Street houses the first purpose built prison
1790 World's first American consul, James Maury, is posted to Liverpool
1791 The first school for the blind opens at Commutation Row
1793 Liverpool becomes the first and only municipality with the right to issue its own money
1803 Liverpool Underwriter's Association is the world's first
1814 St George's, in Everton, is the first all cast iron church
1822 James Muspratt opens an alkali works in Vauxhall - the origins of ICI
1823 First mechanics lending library
1825 World's first school for deaf people
1830 World's first passenger railway line built by Liverpool & Manchester Railway Company
1830 The world's first train shed and large wooden station roof are built at Crown Street station
1830 MP William Huskisson is the first railway fatality
1835 Lacy's publishes the world's first railway timetable
1838 The first travelling Post Office nets between Liverpool and Birmingham
1839 The start of the world’s greatest steeple chase at Aintree race course
1839 Laird’s shipyard built the world’s first screw propelled steamer, Robert F. Stockton, a 63ft tug for use on North American waterways.
1840 Cunard's wooden paddle-steamer Britannia is the first scheduled transatlantic passenger service
1840 Liverpool appoints Britain's first borough engineer
1840 World's first photograph developing and printing service
1841 Brunswick Buildings: the first purpose-built office block
1841 The Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (later RSPCA) is founded
1842 First public baths and wash-houses in Upper Frederick St.
1844 Blackburne House is the first girl's day grammar school
1845 Liverpool is the destination of the first package tour
1847 Dr Duncan becomes the world's first Medical Officer
1847 The world’s first purpose designed and built public park, Birkenhead Park. Central Park in New York as based on it.
1848 First British trades council.
1848 Albert Dock, the first non-combustible warehousing system in the world
1848 Albert Dock, the world's first warehouses to use hydraulic hoists.
1848 St. George's Hall has the world's first ever air-conditioning system.
1850 Liverpool is the first borough to start a library committee
1851 The first provincial Children's Hospital opens in the city
1856 The 21 ton Horsfall Gun - the largest in the world - is built at the Mersey Forge in Sefton Street; it could fire a 300lb cannon ball five miles
1857 Liverpool Rugby Club is the world's first open club.
1857 Liverpool starts Britain's first chess club
1857 World’s largest water works to supply Liverpool with water from Rivington Pike.
1858 The world's first steel ship, the Ma Roberts, built in for Dr. Livingstone's African exploration by the Laird shipyard.
1859 The first nurse paid to look after the poor
1860 First purpose built public library
1860 The world’s first ‘street railway’ at Woodside Birkenhead
1861 Britain's first ecumenical conference
1861 A Liverpool made gun fires the first shot of the American Civil War
1862 The first street refuges for pedestrians built
1862 First provincial school of nursing set up in Liverpool
1862 Laird shipyard build the American Confederate CSS Alabama commerce raider. This ship sunk 65 ships with a predominately Liverpool crew. A total never been equalled by any ship since.
1862 The Jones Quiggin shipyard built the first steel ship to cross the Atlantic, the Banshee. Built for the Confederate states of America as a fast blockade runner.
1864 The first slum clearance scheme gives the Medical Officer power to demolish unsafe and unfit buildings
1864 The world’s first metal framed glass curtain walled building – Oriel Chambers, Water Street.
1865 The last act of the American Civil War was the surrender to the Mayor of Liverpool of the Confederate ship Shenandoah, by her captain James Waddell, at the Town Hall.
1865 The last official lowering of the American Confederate flag was in the River Mersey when the CSS Shenandoah was handed over to Captain Payton of the Royal Navy.
1867 Britain's first steamroller is bought by Liverpool
1867 Liverpool Velocipedes is the country's first cycling club
1868 Liverpool is the first borough to secure an Act of Parliament to establish a tram network
1869 St Martins Cottages are the first municipal housing
1870 Liverpool Society of Accountants is the first
1875 The first disarmament campaign: Liverpool Peace Society
1876 Britain's first gorilla arrives at Liverpool Docks
1876 Landing stage at the Pier Head. The largest floating structure in the world.
1877 The Walker Art Gallery is the first UK public art gallery
1879 World’s first mechanically propelled submarine, Resurgam, built at Birkenhead
1880 Liverpool hosts the first Irish Nationalist MP in England - TP O'Connor at the Liverpool Exchange.
1880 Liverpool starts work on the largest artificial reservoir in Europe to supply Liverpool with water, at Vyrnwy in Wales.
1883 The Liverpool Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children - forerunner of the NSPCC - is founded.
1884 Britain's first female doctor opens a practice in Liverpool
1886 The first major under-river tunnel is built under the Mersey
1886 Liverpool carried out and financed the first ever Atlantic telegraph cable.
1886 Northern Hospital has the first purpose-built ambulance
1889 Britain's first mosque opens on Mount Vernon Street
1887 Everton FC are one of the founding clubs of the first football league competition
1889 Liverpool Gas Company installs the first pre-payment gas meters
1889 Liverpool's police force is the first to wear rubber-soled boots for night duty
1891 John Brodie invents the goalnet, which is first used by Everton FC
1892 Liverpool University opens the first Marine Biological Station
1892 The world’s first purpose built football ground; Goodison Park, Everton FC.
1893 The world's first overhead electric railway built in the city
1894 First ever radio broadcast made by Oliver Lodge, Liverpool University professor of physics
1895 First British school of architecture and applied art
1896 The x-ray is used in medical diagnosis for the first time
1897 Liverpool is the first to employ female health visitors
1898 First city to employ a municipal bacteriologist
1898 School of Tropical Medicine is the first founded in the UK
1899 Oliver Lodge invents the car engine ignition system
1901 Liverpool runs the first anti-tuberculosis campaign in Britain
1901 Seaforth Sands gets the first escalator in a railway station
1901 The world’s first filmed crime re-enactment in Bootle.
1901 The world’s largest building. Stanley Dock Tobacco warehouse.
1901 The world’s largest brick building. Stanley Dock Tobacco warehouse.
1902 The School of Tropical medicine is the first British medical institution to gain the Nobel Prize for Medicine for connecting the mosquito with malaria.
1902 Hatton Garden fire station has the first motor fire engine
1904 The University of Liverpool founds the first school of veterinary science in the country.
1907 The Liver Buildings has the world’s largest clock-faces.
1908 Boy Scouts: Birkenhead was the home of the first ever scouts group
1909 Eleanor Rathbone becomes the first woman councillor
1909 Woolworths opens its first British store on Church Street
1912 First automatic telephone exchange
1913 New York World carries the first 'word cross', or crossword, compiled by Liverpudlian Arthur Wynne
1913 Liverpool-born John Archer is elected Britain's first black mayor, in Battersea
1917 First public commercial library in the country
1919 Liverpool's is the first - and only - police force to strike
1919 The first department of oceanography opens at the University
1920 The world’s first all welded hulled ship, Fullagar, buit by the Laird’s shipyard.
1924 Lister Drive power station has the first hyperbolic cooling tower
1925 Crosshall Street hosts the country's first Juvenile Court
1927 The Bluecoat is the first British Arts centre
1927 West Derby is the site of the first municipal Jewish cemetery
1928 William (Dixie) Dean of Everton FC, scores a record 60 goals in a season in the leagues top-flight division.
1932 The first purpose-built boxing stadium (Bixteth Street)
1933 Dr Minnitt at Liverpool's maternity hospital uses gas and air in childbirth for the first time
1934 Liverpool Police are the first force to use two-way radios
1934 Taller, on Church Street, is first provincial news theatre
1934 Mersey road tunnel, 2.3 mi (3.7 km) long, is the longest subaqueous tunnel in the world.
1935 Everton FC are the first football team to be televised live; vs. Arsenal
1936 The Liverpool Corporation Act is the first giving the council the right to buy, sell and develop land.
1936 Speke sees the first purpose-built municipal industrial estate
1943 Richard Burton makes his theatrical debut at the Royal Court
1944 Hua Chow Pao is Britain's first Chinese newspaper
1946 Liverpool FC's Jack Chalmer becomes the first player to score three consecutive hat-tricks
1947 World's first radar lighthouse
1948 The Mersey Ferries were the first to have a radar system for safe navigation in fog
1949 South Liverpool FC are the first club to permanently install and play under floodlights.
1950 The first helicopter service flies from Liverpool to Cardiff
1950 The world’s first purpose built angle flight deck aircraft carrier, built at Laird’s shipyard; HMS Ark Royal.
1952 Hospital radio starts in Liverpool
1952 First package holiday flight departs from Liverpool airport
1952 The Albert Dock complex is listed as is the largest collection of grade 1 listed buildings in the UK.
1953 Liverpool's Lita Roza is the first woman to top the pop charts
1959 National Westminster opens the first drive-in bank
1958 Everton FC are the first English club to install undersoil pitch heating.
1959 First mass x-ray campaign
1960 Martin's is the first bank to use a computer
1961 St. George’s School Wallasey is the UKs first successful 100% solar heated building.
1962 The Mersey Docks and Harbour Company is the first port authority to use a computer.
1962 The world’s first hovercraft service from Hoylake to North Wales.
1964 Liverpool's police force is the first to use closed circuit TV
1967 First seminar for orchestra conductors
1967 The largest panel of stained glass in the world at the new Metropolitan Cathedral.
1968 World's best selling poetry book published by Liverpool 8 Poets
1969 The Beatles are the only musicians to achieve five Diamond albums, signifying U.S. sales of 10 million copies or more.
1971 Knowsley Safari Park; the largest in Europe, with the largest herd of African elephants outside Africa.
1979 Liverpool Anglican cathedral completed after 77 years of construction. Britain's largest, with the world's largest Gothic arches, organ and the highest and heaviest bells. Also the world’s longest nave.
1984 Liverpool FC becomes the first club to win three major trophies in one season
1984 The first British International Garden Festival is held in Liverpool
1991 Liverpool FC achieves a record 18 league titles.
1997 The Roy Castle Foundation for Lung Cancer Research is the world's first dedicated cancer research centre.
1999 Everton FC is the first English club to reach 6,000 goals in the top-flight division
2000 World’s longest mural at Alder Hey hospital.
2001 Liverpool is named World Capital of Pop Music with 53 No. 1 chart hits since 1953.
2003 Everton FC are the first English football club to play 100 seasons in the English top-flight division.
2003 Liverpool JM university installs the world's largest fully robotic telescope in the Canary Islands for research.
2004 St. Georges Hall was voted, by the European Architectural Commission, the finest public building constructed in Europe in the past 200 years.
2004 Oldest timepiece maker in the world – Sewills. Established 1800.
2005 Liverpool University discovered a new layer near the Earth's core.
2005 Liverpool FC achieves a British record of 5 European Cup wins.
2005 Liverpool was named IT and Telecommunications Capital of Europe by Foreign Direct Investment magazine.
2006 World's first zoonosis research centre – animal borne diseases such as birdflue.
2006 The Beatles so far to date have achieved a record 20 US and 17 UK No 1 singles. They also hold the record for the most No 1 albums of all time, with 15 albums on the US Billboard. They have sold a record of over a billion worldwide. And still counting.

This thread is a nest of mongs.

This thread is a nest of mongs.

Disgusting. How do you think Mongs feel?

1639 Jeremiah Horrocks of Toxteth: the first observation of the transit of Venus
Must note though... he built his success in Preston ;)

Disgusting. How do you think Mongs feel?

Very bad, considering this thread. Perhaps you're right, I should feel ashamed of myself.

Anyway, I'm on this thread - who said I wasn't one of the threadmongs myself?

'Threadmong' is the word of the week on this forum Awayo - no need to feel ashamed.

You win a signed Womack & Womack t-shirt made from the blood of archaic wind farms.
Come out of it lad - it's gone all Labbatts and r'n'b lite in here fella.

If they don't come together Liverpool and Manchester are doomed to stay on the periphery.

For ever.

Cheers Northbeach.

Urrgh though, Labbatts and rnb lite mong. I mean ming.

If they don't come together Liverpool and Manchester are doomed to stay on the periphery.

For ever.

So for Liverpool and Manchester to unite you would be happy if all the levers needed to maximise this collaboration where in Liverpool?

I am not getting at you isaac as this is continually mooted in these forums... just what though does it mean? How would it work out... who does what and where?... how or why would we want to co-ordinate the united approach of the two metropoli? Why will we both die if we don't?

Let's begin to put some reall meat onto the notion... please start with the infrastructure we would need to combine.... put it all in Liverpool and then see how long you maintain this notion?

I found the way the debate below descended into name calling a little embarrasing.. you manc forumers should have a little more decorum when visiting.... no matter how monglike the stuff is you read! It is all pretty provincial anyway the current debate about Manchester's ascendanccy over Liverpool.. I mean... did guandong feel it had lost something when the NW regional headquarteres of wank and co went to Manchester rather than them... it is all third tier stuff and both cities need to rise out of their complacency asap!

This thread's really fucking pissed me off. It actually stresses me out these days coming on here.

So for Liverpool and Manchester to unite you would be happy if all the levers needed to maximise this collaboration where in Liverpool?

What it needs is the two to go their own ways - Liverpool pretty well is, and really doesn't give a hoot what is happening elsewhere. The new NW regional assembly can take care of infrastructrure for the NW and stop the two pulling at each other for biggest airport or whatever, and combine the best assets of both.

But who takes care of the infrastructure betweem Liverpool and North Wales & North Midlands, John?

This threads really fucking pissed me off. It actually stresses me out these days coming on here.
Wanna point the finger? I sure do.

But John... if they decide that Manchester is to get the big airport and Liverpool the submarine base then that's the end of us..... these are the sorts of decisions that will have to be made, and when you think regional it becomes 'logical' to arrange things 'efficiently'... this notion of efficiency is a socialist nonsense.

I love to know what Earlybird would have written on this thread.

Well, maybe not "loved"

What it needs is the two to go their own ways - Liverpool pretty well is, and really doesn't give a hoot what is happening elsewhere. The new NW regional assembly can take care of infrastructrure for the NW and stop the two pulling at each other for biggest airport or whatever, and combine the best assets of both.

John,I absolutely agree with you about the two cities going their own ways.
There is nothing wrong with this,healthy competition is better than having a regional authority sharing out what it thinks best for them.
But you can't hive off things such as the airports to a Regional Body and then expect the two cities to continue competition.
That way lies a Regional Authority,and the demise of both Cities.

If we're going down that route, why not go all the way with that ideology? Why not have Heathrow as our only international airport? The rest of the airports in the British Isles have feeder services to Heathrow, where the world's your oyster, when it comes to choice of connections. Of course, we'd still have domestic flights to Exeter, Belfast and the rest. Makes sense, doesn't it?

Stick the administrative buildings in the countryside, somewhere on a campus. Each city can still have a ceremonial Mayor to greet VIP's etc. before they are driven to the calm tranquil campus of the twin city government. Both the cities transport systems need integrating with each other, the airports need integrating, the Mersey and Ship Canal need integrating as one port "Merseyport" It's pointless both cities going it alone. Most people in the world have heard of neither city. Yes they know the Beatles, Liverpool FC, Man United, etc. but show them a map and most people will be stumped.

Football teams and pop groups are just that no more. Blondie, Public Enemy, The Strokes, Velvet Underground, Billy Joel, 50 Cent, Kiss, LL Cool J, Patti Smith, Jay Z, nobody calls it New York music, nobody cares where they come from and New York is no more famous because of them.

New York is famous because it is a point of immigration, part of a dream. Insignificant little conurbations scrapping it out in north west England won't become part of anybody's dream unless they join and prosper. Become places of work, places where firms want to locate, where people from other parts of the World want to live. A genuine counterweight to London.

I love to know what Earlybird would have written on this thread.

Well, maybe not "loved"

but would you still be happy, should you see all the 'regional' infrastructure put into Liverpool?

Like your strapline Stephen... does that mean you are from Wirral? (joke)

Stick the administrative buildings in the countryside, somewhere on a campus. Each city can still have a ceremonial Mayor to greet VIP's etc. before they are driven to the calm tranquil campus of the twin city government. Both the cities transport systems need integrating with each other, the airports need integrating, the Mersey and Ship Canal need integrating as one port "Merseyport" It's pointless both cities going it alone. Most people in the world have heard of neither city. Yes they know the Beatles, Liverpool FC, Man United, etc. but show them a map and most people will be stumped.

Football teams and pop groups are just that no more. Blondie, Public Enemy, The Strokes, Velvet Underground, Billy Joel, 50 Cent, Kiss, LL Cool J, Patti Smith, Jay Z, nobody calls it New York music, nobody cares where they come from and New York is no more famous because of them.

New York is famous because it is a point of immigration, part of a dream. Insignificant little conurbations scrapping it out in north west England won't become part of anybody's dream unless they join and prosper. Become places of work, places where firms want to locate, where people from other parts of the World want to live. A genuine counterweight to London.


For a great many of New Yorks population Liverpool is where that dream began.
Their Parents /Grandparents emigrated from here to start their new life in the New World.

Wow Isaac.. you've hit a good one there... true that fotty clubs and pop bands mean fuck all in the world.... but I can't think of anyone who has put these forward as reasons not to tie the two cities economies together.

If there is no culture to these two places though then what would we be combining for?

What 'prestige' would 'we' acrue?

Some stupid race to get more bank relocations than the North East? It all becomes silly. What's the point in doing this?

being able to trade in the world does not mean having to combine economies... even together they would be worth about 1/5,000 of Honk Kong say... pointless. Aren't cities supposed to be about quality of life, creative process and cultural identity?

I tend to leave questions of cultural identity to the Nazis. I dislike the idea of identity and culture. I think a better quality of life would accrue from combination. Better transport links, mean infrastructure such as hospitals can specialise more. If it took 20 mins to get to Liverpool from Manchester by train, then a Liverpool hospital could specialise in one kind of care and a Manchester hospital another kind of care, it should be less of a problem to visit relatives in either.

I've said it elsewhere but the centres of Liverpool and Manchester should be wholly residential and service based and any industry/office should be outside. To me this would create buzzing vital city centres whilst a business centre could be created again in campus like conditions on the outskirts of both cities, either in a development corridor between the two or around the airports.

My thoughts are to create a new multicentre city out of the old whilst not smothering the original identities and histories of each city. Although frankly the history of both cities is based on Slavery, exploitation, greed and finally abandonment.

Like your strapline Stephen... does that mean you are from Wirral? (joke)

F*CK OFF!!

Not the Wirral, think smellier.

Aren't cities supposed to be about quality of life, creative process and cultural identity?

Yes they should be. But in the UK they were, and still are to an extent, places for rich people to make more money.

London has people in Surrey who make the most out of the city. Liverpool has people in the Wirral doing the same, Manchester in Cheshire. Most of these people who cream off the top and don't live in these cities could care a hoot about the quality of life for people in them, all they want is the places ripped up to give high speed links in and out of them so they can make money and not live there.

I admire Ken Livingstone, in that he wants Londoners to primarily have a high quality of life. He does not bend over and ruin the innards of London to make it easy and fast for outsiders to come in and work and then get back out. He wants the people who make most out of London to live there, not outsiders to merely use it. He sectioned off streets to avoid rat runs and make matters better for locals and caused traffic jams right back to Reading, or somewhere. They complained and he said there are perfectly good train services available, use them. Ken has the right attitude, and many should adopt the same.

"whilst not smothering the original identities and histories of each city"
So you ARE a fucking Nazi then? Cheeky fucker.

You idea of the ideal megalopolis is shit as well... two city centres with nothing save residents.... residential commuter district.

F*CK OFF!!

Not the Wirral, think smellier.
LoL! Widnes?

Maybe. But I'm not FROM there.
Anyway, Suppose I do "cream off the top and don't live in these cities", being a commuter. Dosn't feel like it...

F*CK OFF!!

Not the Wirral, think smellier.
No, where are you from,you said you lived in Widnes but you're not from there.

"whilst not smothering the original identities and histories of each city"
So you ARE a fucking Nazi then? Cheeky fucker.

You idea of the ideal megalopolis is shit as well... two city centres with nothing save residents.... residential commuter district.

I didn't say that, I said wholly residential and service based. i.e. shops, theatres, pubs, restaraunts, schools, hospitals. Places that are alive. Offices close down at the weekend.

I'm more Pol Pot than Adolph Hitler, year zero.

my Heart will always be in "The Big Brown Thing on Hill Street".

Find that, and find the answer...
I like it when people ask about me, it makes me feel important. All a bit off subect though.

OK Isaac, fair enough!

I would guess then Stephen the big brown thing is the Anglican Cathedral?

If not, Clegthorpe sewerage works?

Too scared to say where your from?

my Heart will always be in "The Big Brown Thing on Hill Street".

Find that, and find the answer...
I like it when people ask about me, it makes me feel important. All a bit off subect though.
You're constantly sniping about Liverpool and pretending to be from Widnes,come on where are you from,we won't laugh honest.

i think the clue's in hill.

are you benny hill? did you star in hill street blues? have you now moved to peckham hill?

Look at his avatar for fucks sake, he's Brummy.

I'd also like to congratulate the Liverpool forum on "Most Retarded Thread 2006", because this beauty is going to be hard to beat in future, but judging from the current fresh crop of internet talent docking these boards, I'd wager you'll soon outdo yourselves.

Look at his avatar for fucks sake, he's Brummy.

I'd also like to congratulate the Liverpool forum on "Most Retarded Thread 2006", because this beauty is going to be hard to beat in future, but judging from the current fresh crop of internet talent docking these boards, I'd wager you'll soon outdo yourselves.


:colgate:

You've spoilt the fun now dgnr8! (not trying to hint that I clicked to the avitar mind!)

I wonder if he's getting Hill st mixed up with Stanhope St.
Maybe he means Cains Brewery?

I'd also like to congratulate the Liverpool forum on "Most Retarded Thread 2006", because this beauty is going to be hard to beat in future, but judging from the current fresh crop of internet talent docking these boards, I'd wager you'll soon outdo yourselves.

A few home truths upset you eh. Shame.

A few home truths upset you eh. Shame.

:crazy:

One suspects it's all been a bogus-id troll-fest kidda.

For one so young dgnr8 you have some terrible habits!

Your posts are littered with swear words and I just hope your mother doesn't see that pic of you smoking!

One suspects it's all been a bogus-id troll-fest kidda.

Aye, that would answer a fair few questions, but this person's done a hell-of-alot-of research ey :)

A few home truths upset you eh. Shame.
I find it quite disturbing that somebody would do so much research and join this forum for the sole purpose of slagging off another city.

I find it quite disturbing that somebody would do so much research and join this forum for the sole purpose of slagging off another city.

I never slagged anyone off. I just responded in kind. Quite natural really.

As natural as your mongosity?

I'd also like to congratulate the Liverpool forum on "Most Retarded Thread 2006", because this beauty is going to be hard to beat in future, but judging from the current fresh crop of internet talent docking these boards, I'd wager you'll soon outdo yourselves.[/QUOTE]

LOL. :laugh:

Can we have a few ip checks on a few of these 'newer' forumers who've suddenly sprung up. Some of them are just too incredible to be true.

IP checks prove nothing in the broadband age as most of us will be sharing an IP from a local server. So if a member from round here in Leeds was on ntl and he was banned, then I would probably be banned too due to us likely sharing the same local IP address.

For one so young dgnr8 you have some terrible habits!

Your posts are littered with swear words and I just hope your mother doesn't see that pic of you smoking!

To be fair to dgnr8 though Tony he has totally unbiased views when it comes to Liverpool and he should be welcomed to the Liverpool forum with open arms,he's a ssc legend man! :cheers:

John-mk and AMC LPOOL MANC are obviously the same person.

One personality expresses their opinion in an implicit, subtle way. Whilst the other doesn't spare a second and lets rip :laugh:

What's Sir Miles Platting up to these days, purely out of interest? ;)

Deegen is the filfthiest, and one of the funniest, men on SSC.

The sweet and tender hooligan.

When's Fartie Bumfkin going to come back? Times like these are when he usually makes an appearance.

When's Fartie Bumfkin going to come back? Times like these are when he usually makes an appearance.
Mentioning his name pretty much sums up what this thread is all about lol.

When's Fartie Bumfkin going to come back? Times like these are when he usually makes an appearance.

Artie Fufkin passed away peacefully in his sleep, last Christmas.

His heady lifestyle of sex, drugs & rock'n'roll finally caught up with him.

May god have mercy on his soul.

You're constantly sniping about Liverpool and pretending to be from Widnes,come on where are you from,we won't laugh honest.

Constantly sniping? I dont Like Malmaison or the Black Mann Island things, I think the Anglican Catherdrial isn't as good as it could be considering it's size and Art deco design.

I've said OODLES of nice things, too, but apparently all I so is "constantly sniping". Sigh...

IP checks prove nothing in the broadband age as most of us will be sharing an IP from a local server. So if a member from round here in Leeds was on ntl and he was banned, then I would probably be banned too due to us likely sharing the same local IP address.

Yes, I think that's how Trammy, sorry.. I mean Metro, ooh... err, I mean Earlybird gets away with it. Either they're long lost, nutty twins or it is the same person. Either that, or Manc has a disturbingly high proportion of obsessive, loonies walking around harbouring pointless (and I dare say, laughable) dreams of Manc taking over the world.

:laugh:

Stephen..
The Anglican cathedral is the largest in Europe, so it is partly its sheer scale that impresses me. In any case, it isn't art deco it is Neo-Gothic. This may explain your disappointment. :)

Blabber, your first paragraph works both ways. With all due respect mate, you're sometimes as bad as some others (don't ask me to provide evidence as I'm simply going off the opinion I've formulated in my intoxicated brain). And no, Metro has no affiliation with EB. He was a member here long before EB showed up.

And I mean really, accusing the thread starter and other such recent ramblings on Mancs masquerading as Scousers, just to have a bit of a barney? You do realise how utterly ridiculous that sounds?

Dgnr8,

You haven't proven a thing, as usual. I'll have you know that my posts are predominantly insightful, well augmented, thoughtful and (a majority of the time) relevant. However, I am willing to put my barely breathing reputation on the line and say that Metro is Early Bird. Until you've any evidence to the contrary, shut your pork trap and don't waste my time.

I'll have you know that my posts are predominantly insightful, well augmented, thoughtful and (a majority of the time) relevant.
I put luv on ignore which is one reason why I haven't been provoked lately, but really blubber... you are a damn trouble maker and you know it.... although 'respect' for making the journey to Liverpool for the 21CL jobby x

See, this is exactly what I was attempting to highlight when I parped up the other week. Look man, I've not said fuck all to be threatening or even a slight arse towards you in my above post, yet you reply to me with that. Not at all endearing and will lead to nothing but more and more outsiders being left with the impression they're not welcome in Liverpool, let alone on a sodding Scouse internet forum.

Why must I prove it? Why must it be proven at all? What's the point? What would be gained?

To be honest, fuck all, that's what. So there's no point making a non-issue out of hey, nothing!

And one last thing, refering to my first paragraph - drop the aggressive attitude mate because you've got fuck all reason to be aggressive towards me nor anybody else (with notable exceptions whose names go without saying).

To be fair to dgnr8 though Tony he has totally unbiased views when it comes to Liverpool and he should be welcomed to the Liverpool forum with open arms,he's a ssc legend man! :cheers:


I know... was only joking about his avatar! we all missed that Stephens avatar is brum and we were all trying to guess where he came from!

He is a man of eminent sense.

I put luv on ignore which is one reason why I haven't been provoked lately, but really blubber... you are a damn trouble maker and you know it.... although 'respect' for making the journey to Liverpool for the 21CL jobby x

Bam bams, I've attempted on several occasions to engage you in serious debates about urbanism, governance, economics, etc. You have generally been incapable of offering anything worth reading. In the regionalism thread (it's all still there) I wiped the floor with you, and am still waiting for the response you promised over a week ago.

Most of your posts, and I mean the vast majority, have been to jump into other peoples arguments and stoke up shit.

So I suggest you shut your silly little trap, go and fix up your make-up, and get back to your meeting with Rick Parry and Richard Branson. We're all relying on you to give us the latest news on everything in the world. :laugh:

That Jerv gob shite will be joining in next

Bladders - how do you suggest I 'prove' I'm not EB???

For example, do you accept the fact that I got invited by EB to join another forum on 25th Feb at 04:21 to join his new forum (any admin can check this out in my PM's if they like - I'll forward it to you Bladders) suggests that I am not him? Wouldn't it be a bit pointless?



My Site

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi there!
I'm trying to start up my new site and i want good forumers there who know their stuff and who generally make a good contribution to forum life. You came to mind. Would you be interested in joining my site and helping me get the community up and running? If so, please go to the site, join up and start posting.

Hopefully I'll see you there!

www.*************

EarlyBird

Given this was posted to me before you started acusing me of being EB - I'd suggest I hadn't had the oppurtunity to create the PM to prove anything ???

Given this was posted to me before you started acusing me of being EB - I'd suggest I hadn't had the oppurtunity to create the PM to prove anything ???

Hmm... no, I'm still not convinced. Sorry.

Dgnr8,

You haven't proven a thing, as usual. I'll have you know that my posts are predominantly insightful, well augmented, thoughtful and (a majority of the time) relevant. However, I am willing to put my barely breathing reputation on the line and say that Metro is Early Bird. Until you've any evidence to the contrary, shut your pork trap and don't waste my time.

Blabbernsmoke I can confirm Early Bird and Metrolink are two different people.

Early bird's real name is Rick Hanson and Metrolink's first name is Kurt.

and Metrolink knows loads about Trams where as EarlyBird didn't know alot.

Not at all endearing and will lead to nothing but more and more outsiders being left with the impression they're not welcome in Liverpool, let alone on a sodding Scouse internet forum.


I didn't realise I was the officially recognised representative of 2.5+ million people. Why didn't anybody tell me!? I'm honoured!

:bash:

You're intentionally being difficult to suit your personal agenda Blabbs, so I'll leave you be to chill out a wee bit. Maybe then you'll actually think about some of the points raised today without flying off on a hysterical one.

Bam bams, I've attempted on several occasions to engage you in serious debates
utter bollocks blubber, you're an argumentative chump. Anyway I was saving my 666 post for you... so here - TAKE THAT! (also ashamedly from Manchester). x

Bladders -what do you suggest?

I live in Sale Trafford - and have always said so.

EB lives in Ashton in Tameside.

I'd suggest if I asked you to prove you were not Awayo you wouldn't be able to.

I could prove I am Kurt Stephens, born in New Brunswick Canada and living on Trafalgar Road in Sale Manchester very easily - however, since I (honestly) don't know anything about EB except he is a web designer living in Tameside I'm going to find it very hard proving I'm not him.

utter bollocks blubber, you're an argumentative chump. Anyway I was saving my 666 post for you... so here - TAKE THAT! (also ashamedly from Manchester). x

:hilarious

Wonder how long this thread has got?

In the regionalism thread (it's all still there) I wiped the floor with you......We're all relying on you to give us the latest news on everything in the world.

Actually I wiped the floor with you.

And what's that at the end... are you jealous as well?

Anyway back to the thread. I don't think Liverpool is the capital of the UK. There, I said it. I'm not a troll. I just offer my honest opinion.

Macclesfield is.

Blabernsmoke is a spy. He actually loves Manchester, and is one of Bernstein's many illegitimate children.

:hilarious

did

Dunno, but err...

LIVERPOOL POST COUNT = 26, 390 :laugh: :cheers:

Capital of SSC, Capital of the UK.


:banana: :cucumber: :carrot: :banana2: :horse: :colgate: :soapbox: :baeh3: :baeh3:

LIVERPOOL POST COUNT = 26, 390

You can thank me metro, dgnr8, miles, kebab and a load of others for giving you something worth talkin about then blubber :)

You can thank me metro, dgnr8, miles, kebab and a load of others for giving you something worth talkin about then blubber :)

Hey, what happened to you liking Liverpool as much as Manchester? You always seem to make this a Liverpool/Manc thing. And I thought You were above such things :ohno:

You'll always come back here F4nny, as will the others. They can't get enough of this forum becuase the people are better, the subject is better, and y'all are just too sensitive and scared of what is going on down the road.

:laugh:

:cheers:

You always seem to make this a Liverpool/Manc thing.

You use many words blubber-hopper, but say very little....
:)

Either that, or we're genuinely interested in what our neighbours are getting upto. We don't generally come here to troll (WOOOOOP WOOOOOP, HE SAID THE MAGIC WORD, DISCO PARTY TIME), most of us actually give a toss that you guys aren't just sitting still and are progressing as we are. Believe it or not Blabber, but the majority of Mancs like Liverpool and it's Pudlians.

Anyway, here's my £0.02

Liverpool could justifiably claim to be the most "UK" city, London aside, having grown thorugh the input of the huge Irish, Welsh, Scottish and other English communities working and living alongside native Lancastrians.

However, as a seat of government for the nation, it doesn't, and shouldn't, be even considered. I wouldn't have thought it to be Liverpools benefit. Unless some of the Scouse forumers have a plan to start sellin Union Flag tea towels and Telephone Box chocolates to gullable tourists.

What's Sir Miles Platting up to these days, purely out of interest? ;)
Stop it yer making me go red.... :)

Anyway, here's my £0.02

Liverpool could justifiably claim to be the most "UK" city, London aside, having grown thorugh the input of the huge Irish, Welsh, Scottish and other English communities working and living alongside native Lancastrians.

However, as a seat of government for the nation, it doesn't, and shouldn't, be even considered. I wouldn't have thought it to be Liverpools benefit. Unless some of the Scouse forumers have a plan to start sellin Union Flag tea towels and Telephone Box chocolates to gullable tourists.


Well we already sell Superlambanana's, Beatles action figures and Mersey Ferry models, so why not? Actually I have seen the UK memorabilia you speak of in some store on the Albert Dock, as well as the Queen Square tourist centre.

Doesn't Manc, or is it all Ian Brown action figures and Tony Wilson coffee mugs?

Stop it yer making me go red.... :)

Well you're not a city fan, I'm lead to believe, so it's all good.

More Argentina flags will be sold in Manchester than UK ones I suspect (probably not far off either).

Liverpool isn't claiming to be the capital of the UK. It was suggested by some over the years, most lately by someone in the house of lords. The post was started (god, it seems like years ago now..actually about three days!) to ask who thought it would be a good idea. I think it would be awful for us, or any of the northern cities to be saddled with a bunch of crooks and no mark beancounters!


Loosen the noose.. don't simply bring the bastards up here!

Stop it yer making me go red.... :)

I think they missed us... ahhhhh :)

More Argentina flags will be sold in Manchester than UK ones I suspect (probably not far off either).

Something we DO have in common... no affiliation to that there Ingerlund!

and long may it remain so!

Doesn't Manc, or is it all Ian Brown action figures and Tony Wilson coffee mugs?

I think there are a few 2002 Commonwealth Games mugs left in TJ Hughes Gareth x

Nah Gareth, but you can buy Boeing 747 models at our long-haul airport ;-) Only kidding.

Liverpool isn't claiming to be the capital of the UK. It was suggested by some over the years, most lately by someone in the house of lords. The post was started (god, it seems like years ago now..actually about three days!) to ask who thought it would be a good idea. I think it would be awful for us, or any of the northern cities to be saddled with a bunch of crooks and no mark beancounters!


And besided the Local council's got those jobs sown up anyway.

Can't believe I'm still reading this list I try to turn away, but I'm drawn back....

I think there are a few 2002 Commonwealth Games mugs left in TJ Hughes Gareth x

Never seen them. I can't imagine them selling in 2006 though.

Never seen them. I can't imagine them selling in 2006 though.

ooooops did they sell out? :)

Ringworm passenger numbers fall,

LJLA increase 50% +

:cheers:

Welcome to the CAPITAL.

ooooops did they sell out? :)

You tell me. Were they ever there in the first place? I've never seen them, though maybe I didn't notice them when I was last in there, which was some time last year.

Ringworm passenger numbers fall,

LJLA increase 50% +

:cheers:

Welcome to the CAPITAL.

Thats because my auntie audrey and uncle brian flew to dublin in January I reckon...


Just teasing you blubber....

They are all at a factory in Tyldesley, being repainted, replacing the "2" with an "8", "commonwealth" with "capital" and a few other things.

As soon as they get flights to Stiges, maybe you'll abandon Ringworm too. :laugh:

50%+ increase. :cheers:

Look at his avatar for fucks sake, he's Brummy.

I'd also like to congratulate the Liverpool forum on "Most Retarded Thread 2006", because this beauty is going to be hard to beat in future, but judging from the current fresh crop of internet talent docking these boards, I'd wager you'll soon outdo yourselves.

mongosity

Class posts dgnr8 m8 :)
Only got as far as page 6. This fucking thread is brilliant :hilarious :hilarious

You tell me. Were they ever there in the first place? I've never seen them, though maybe I didn't notice them when I was last in there, which was some time last year.

They must have sold out Gareth... I think they were next to to Triathalon World Championship mugs, the World Cycling Championship mugs, the European Hockey Championship mugs, the 2008 World Squash Championship mugs, the Partially Sighted World Championship mugs, the National Badminton Championship mugs, the 2012 Paralympic World Championship mugs, and the European Water Polo Championship mugs. I think the Ian Brown mugs might have been nicked, and the Tony Wilson ones... were rubbish anyway.

Its a mugs game.











Just foolin with ya, don't hurt me again :)

They must have sold out Gareth... I think they were next to to Triathalon World Championship mugs, the World Cycling Championship mugs, the European Hockey Championship mugs, the 2008 World Squash Championship mugs, the Partially Sighted World Championship mugs, the National Badminton Championship mugs, the 2012 Paralympic World Championship mugs, and the European Water Polo Championship mugs. I think the Ian Brown mugs might have been nicked, and the Tony Wilson ones... were rubbish anyway.

Its a mugs game.











Just foolin with ya, don't hurt me again :)

Got distracted on your way to the make-up aisle, eh F4nny?

:cheer:

They must have sold out Gareth... I think they were next to to Triathalon World Championship mugs, the World Cycling Championship mugs, the European Hockey Championship mugs, the 2008 World Squash Championship mugs, the Partially Sighted World Championship mugs, the National Badminton Championship mugs, the 2012 Paralympic World Championship mugs, and the European Water Polo Championship mugs. I think the Ian Brown mugs might have been nicked, and the Tony Wilson ones... were rubbish anyway.

Its a mugs game.


Wow. I must keep an eye out when I'm next in there.






Just foolin with ya, don't hurt me again :)

I know, though I don't know what you're on about, about me hurting you again. When was the last time I hurt you?

I know, though I don't know what you're on about, about me hurting you again. When was the last time I hurt you?

In his dreams.

Provincial Queens :)

Well I can't help that. I take no responsibility for my actions in other people's dreams.

Wow. I must keep an eye out when I'm next in there

Didn't you think my 'mugs game' post was funny then? I am still pissing myself...

Ok, hurt me.

Eh?

Ok, hurt me.

PM Dave, he offers a comprehensive service- with lip removal free of charge.

:)

Hmm... no, I'm still not convinced. Sorry.
Stop this Blabb. Please :cheers:

Eh?

Did I lose you Gareth? I was just messing around....

Anyway back to the thread. I think if Liverpool WAS the Capital of the UK it might be a good thing. There are too many 'lily livered' 'saveloy crunching' 'yes men' in the 'big smoke', and if they were in Liverpool they would have to try a bit harder to justify my hard earned cash on Euro politicians, pandering to French Agricultural Policy, and running scared of French lorry drivers. I think a bit of plain speaking just might sort things out good and proper. And if blubber put himself up for speaker of the house it might even make mainstream telly.... That's it. I'm convinced.

Stop this Blabb. Please :cheers:

Or what?

:cheers:

And if blubber put himself up for speaker of the house.

And I think you'd make a fine replacement for Peter Mandelson. :)

You know when you boys use this symbol.... :cheers: what does it mean exactly....

This is the only forum I see it used copiously, and I.... don't want to join in if I dont know what it means.










Not that I NEED to join in of course.

Or what?

:cheers:
Or you'll look like a cunt. There's no way Metro is EB
:cheers:

And I think you'd make a fine replacement for Peter Mandelson. :)


Ahh, blubber... mine was a veiled compliment you know! :(

I think I'll call it a day. It's been fascinating.

Nighty night.

I think I'll call it a day. It's been fascinating.

Nighty night.

Me too Gareth. Its been a long day. You didn't hurt me by the way... you are one of the few voices of reason over here. But could you just pinch me a bit....

Or you'll look like a cunt. There's no way Metro is EB
:cheers:

I agree. I was joking. Naturally. Maggie. :cheers:

Ahh, blubber... mine was a veiled compliment you know! :(

So was mine! He's a talented man ye know.

I agree. I was joking. Naturally. Maggie. :cheers:
Me too. Cunt :cheers:

Hey, the capital of france is a work shy, car firing, riot-run, bling wearing hole aswell (although it is famous in america, and has two or three recognisable buildings). Just a thought to see if blabbersmoke has put me on ignore like he promised. ;)

Hey, the capital of france is a work shy, car firing, riot-run, bling wearing hole aswell (although it is famous in america, and hes two or three recognisable buildings). Just a thought to see if blabbersmoke has put me on ignore like he promised. ;)

I knew you'd arrive at some point. Now, are you just very predictable; or am I just very talented; or did some nonse PM you? ;)

Back to the topic, and I've thought a bit more since my last post on this thread.

A capital city is a capital of somewhere, a territory. What I did in my post earlier on the thread is question just what that "something" is. Despite current British politics, the Daily Mail and popular opinion, our nation - as a nation / national state - is gradually fading away in terms of significance, utility and viability. The candle always burns brightest before its end, but no amount of flag-waving and Euro-bashing changes reality. We are small, getting smaller (relative to the rest), growing weaker, growing older, growing more divided, growing apart. The UK will not last forever, nor will Great Britain, it's a question of when, not if.

Something new is emerging, not simply in terms of being a very different "nation", but it's less of a nation state than a large urbanised statelet that is morphing into a national city. We are becoming a vast and ramshackle Singapore-writ-large.

This is why the notion of a capital city is problematic, because our entire nation is becoming a de facto capital city within the world - as well as being an integrated national urban system along Dutch-lines. Already half of England looks to London for primary city functions, and the gap between London and the next rung is a chasm.

So all this "who is second", "who is third" thing is quite pointless. Coming second doesn't count when there is such a gigantic gap from whomever comes first - it's not a silver medal, it's not standing next to them on the podium, it's a long long way behind that, a different competition. The "add the fourth and the third cities together into a virtual megalopolis - that'll change the dynamic" thinking is quaint but absurd (and not evidenced, despite some rather flowery and ambiguous sub-academic rhetoric coming out of the Universities of Manchester and Salford): the gap is still gigantic. Indeed, the dynamics of city regional growth are such that you will actually further enhance London's domination by attempting to merge the growth strategies and trajectories of the second and third and fourth rung cities and towns.

Sebo is right - growth comes from differentiation, competition and uniqueness, not from some kind of half-arsed 5 year plan to harmonise the local economic development stategies of provincial towns.

We (outside London - and Liverpool specifically in the context of this thread) are the tail that is wagged, not the other way around, and to me that says some things:

First of all, London would continue to be the greatest and most important city of Europe, let alone England, long after Parliament and the central civil service was frog-marched off to Sunderland or Birkenhead of wherever. Brasilia didn't stop Sao Paulo or Rio in its tracks. So why not make a claim for that crown? London won't even care, it will continue to be the centre of power, wealth and influence - a huge urban vortex that relentlessly spreads and sucks more and more into its sphere.

Second, the primary linkage Liverpool needs to develop - quite urgently - is to global capitals rather than to Barnsley or Burnley. Rapid, frequent links to London, including Heathrow are essential. A direct link to New York. Hosting media, including news media, so the city has locally based links to the world (not people sent from other cities to spin a yarn.). Sensible people like Juxtapol, Sebo, Fitzroy, Blabs, Awayo, Mersey Orange, Jets9, Gareth, Doug, Martin, Woody, Toad and Bunny (and others) etc are - in my unbiased opinion - precisely right when they consistently call for Liverpool to orientate itself to the world rather than Lancashire. There is a compelling logic to this. If England is a global city, centred on London, then centres such as Liverpool can pay a comparable role of say Croydon or Canary Wharf within London itself.

Just ideas, I am thinking about all this.

Hey, the capital of france is a work shy, car firing, riot-run, bling wearing hole aswell (although it is famous in america, and has two or three recognisable buildings). Just a thought to see if blabbersmoke has put me on ignore like he promised. ;)
That's two or three more than Mill town metropolis then.

Whahey! I got a big one, well it's a cat fish. A big mouth, pretends to be a shark but has no bite! ;) No more trolling from me tonight.

No offense Liverpool. I love the place. Just a touch of wind-up is all.

Whahey! I got a big one, well it's a cat fish. A big mouth, pretends to be a shark but has no bite! ;) No more trolling from me tonight.

No offense Liverpool. I love the place. Just a touch of wind-up is all.
Run run,typical manc.

Back to the topic, and I've thought a bit more since my last post on this thread.

A capital city is a capital of somewhere, a territory. What I did in my post earlier on the thread is question just what that "something" is. Despite current British politics, the Daily Mail and popular opinion, our nation - as a nation / national state - is gradually fading away in terms of significance, utility and viability. The candle always burns brightest before its end, but no amount of flag-waving and Euro-bashing changes reality. We are small, getting smaller (relative to the rest), growing weaker, growing older, growing more divided, growing apart. The UK will not last forever, nor will Great Britain, it's a question of when, not if.

Something new is emerging, not simply in terms of being a very different "nation", but it's less of a nation state morphing into a global national city. We are becoming a vast and ramshackle Singapore-writ-large.

This is why the notion of a capital city is problematic, because our entire nation is becoming a de facto capital city within the world - as well as being an integrated national urban system along Dutch-lines. Already half of England looks to London for primary city functions, and the gap between London and the next rung is a chasm.

So all this "who is second", "who is third" thing is quite pointless. Coming second doesn't count then there is a gigantic gap to who comes first - it's not a silver medal, it's not standing next to them on the podium, it's a long long way behind that. The "add the fourth and the third cities together into a virtual megalopolis - that'll change the dynamic" thinking is quaint but absurd (and not evidenced, despite some rather flowery and ambiguous sub-academic rhetoric coming out of the Universities of Manchester and Salford): the gap is still gigantic. Indeed, the dynamics of city regional growth are such that you will actually further enhance London's domination by attempting to merge the growth strategies and trajectories of the second and third and fourth rung cities and towns.

Sebo is right - growth comes from differentiation, competition and uniqueness, not from some kind of half-arsed 5 year plan to harmonise the local economic development stategies of provincial towns.

We (outside London) are the tail that is shaken, not the other way around, and to me that says some things.

First of all, London would continue to be the greatest and most important city of Europe, let alone England, long after Parliament and the central civil service was frog-marched off to Sunderland or Birkenhead of wherever. Brasilia didn't stop Sao Paulo or Rio in its tracks. So why not make a claim for that crown? London won't even care, it will continue to be the centre of power, wealth and influence - a huge urban vortex that relentlessly spreads and sucks more and more into its sphere.

Second, the primary linkage Liverpool needs to develop - quite urgently - is to global capitals rather than to Barnsley or Burnley. Rapid, frequent links to London, including Heathrow are essential. A direct link to New York. Hosting media, including news media, so the city has locally based links to the world (not people sent from other cities to spin a yarn.). Sensible people like Juxtapol, Sebo, Fitzroy, Blabs, Awayo, Mersey Orange, Jets9, Gareth, Doug, Martin, Woody, Toad and Bunny (and others) etc are - in my unbiased opinion - precisely right when they consistently call for Liverpool to orientate itself to the world rather than Lancashire. There is a compelling logic to this. If England is a global city, centred on London, then centres such as Liverpool can pay a comparable role of say Croydon or Canary Wharf within London itself.

Just ideas, I am thinking about all this.

Interesting post Liverpolitan, and as they say provides lots of food for thought. I disagree though as to regards the UK being finished. I have come from a finished nation and the best indication of such a nation is that very few people immigrate and plenty emmigrate.

I believe the fact the UK has such a high immigration rate suggests there is still plenty of life in the old dog yet.

Provincial Queens :)

you are so right... but I hope that you understand that it describes you lot from down the cobbled highway too?

excellent stuff as usual poli. I wish that we could all (manc forumers and this lot) explore what the options are for our cities withough it all descending into purile jibes... about empires aand parochialism? It really is a vital subject and we could actually possibly unearth some ideas that could be put to our politicos to chew over?

Like most on this thread I know what I am against, but not 100% sure what I think would be best for me to be FOR. I have lots of ideas...as we all do.. how about trying to hone them down into a set of options.... one thing is for sure I get more and more pissed with the accusation that being against the stupid regional project by dint means that I hate all things manc... reveals a certain mindset... not mine though!

we have only ever been presented with one option for devolution, which favouring manc you have all jumped on as a glory ride, but what others are there... surely there are better ones... better for both cities... or maybe not... let's look at the theme?........againzzzzzzzzzzz..

OH










MY











GOD!!

This is pure fantasy its bordering on the hysterical, and I don't mean funny hysterical. There's so many dodgy quotes that I couldn't be bothered. This is the funniest thing I've seen since Richard Madeley fell off that chair live on TV. How the fuck could Liverpool or ANY other city in the UK cope with being the capital without the infrastructure? London can barely cope now for fucks sake, this is something Paul (proffesional scouser when it suits) McCartney would NEVER endorse Im afraid for fear of looking like an ass. Anyone who seriously thinks Liverpool is in any position now or in the future to become the nations capital needs looking at, if you're all there I know where there's a hospital full of you's.

I still believe in a unified Manchester/Liverpool, Liverpool/Manchester, LM or ML. Two airports both easily accesible from each city and its surrounding urban region. (No airport subordinate to the other) A deep water port, a vast corridor of development land along the ship canal. nearly 5 million consumers/workers. A European tiger if done correctly.

I still believe in a unified Manchester/Liverpool, Liverpool/Manchester, LM or ML. Two airports both easily accesible from each city and its surrounding urban region. (No airport subordinate to the other) A deep water port, a vast corridor of development land along the ship canal. nearly 5 million consumers/workers. A European tiger if done correctly.

Me too.....

ah, gents... but this isn't what's being offered by the regional project.

We already have the market we already have the consumer chioce we even have the expanding airports. why are you so keen on a NW metro, but not the one that goes from Liverpool to Hull?

What are the other options that you have considered and rejected as inferior to this? Are those of us who repeadedly raise concerns about or reject this notion of the combined metropolis simply wankers who can't see beyond out own blind bigotry to catch the vision?

you can support the metro notion as much as you like lads, but why the underlying sense that rejection is only based on hate?

This is really begining to concern me!

A capital city is a capital of somewhere, a territory. What I did in my post earlier on the thread is question just what that "something" is. Despite current British politics, the Daily Mail and popular opinion, our nation - as a nation / national state - is gradually fading away in terms of significance, utility and viability.

If you are implying that the seat of government and all the associated ministries are meaningless and don't contribute to any influence and wealth in the city/region they are located, then you ought to look harder. Brussels may or may not make London surplus to requirements, but that I doubt. You are dreaming of the Euro super state which I believe if fully implemented will bring wealth back to UK regions and reduce London’s overt greed and contempt for the rest of the UK. But a Euro super state is a pipe dream. Not in our lifetimes anyway.

Having the capital in a city does not mean enterprise and commercial activity is curtailed. Hoping Liverpool will again get back to what it was, a 100% commercial wealthy city, is dreaming too. If it allowed itself to go so low the enterprise has gone. Liverpool has to re-invent itself and find a role, as the old commercial days are gone and are unlikely to reappear in the previous form.

I would welcome the seat of government in Liverpool if that is what they want. It would, or should, take much of the redundant dock areas and make an iconic waterfront far superior to what Westminster has – the current Palace of Westminster is totally inadequate with all the MPs unable to get a seat in the chamber. Office space is virtually non existent – Thatcher was turned down for an office in the Lords. A disgrace. The Cockpit of the Commons is an embarrassment to the country reflecting a bygone age of cat calling, reducing the governing of the UK to a form of entertainment. The government desperately needs a new purpose built state of the art parliament building complete with facilities with each member having their own office. The palace of Westminster is not even that old - mid Victorian, so the only history is Churchill’s speeches, of which the famous ones where not even in the house.

The government could even use the Wirral bank for government ministry buildings, which is sadly lacking in any significant appealing buildings, apart from Wallasey Town Hall. The Wirral has a wonderful view of Liverpool while Liverpool has sweet nothing to look at. Also if the government reserved masses of dock space, then they hopefully would influence and insist that the space around is used properly, as I just don’t trust Liverpool Council who meander along piecemeal with no overall firm plan. The seat of government in Liverpool would go a long way to ensuring Liverpool does become the Venice of northern Europe.

ah, gents... but this isn't what's being offered by the regional project.

We already have the market we already have the consumer chioce we even have the expanding airports. why are you so keen on a NW metro, but not the one that goes from Liverpool to Hull?

What are the other options that you have considered and rejected as inferior to this? Are those of us who repeadedly raise concerns about or reject this notion of the combined metropolis simply wankers who can't see beyond out own blind bigotry to catch the vision?

you can support the metro notion as much as you like lads, but why the underlying sense that rejection is only based on hate?

This is really begining to concern me!

So hows it going Tony. Did you go to the Enquirer launch?

Isaac Newell

I still believe in a unified Manchester/Liverpool, Liverpool/Manchester, LM or ML. Two airports both easily accesible from each city and its surrounding urban region. (No airport subordinate to the other) A deep water port, a vast corridor of development land along the ship canal. nearly 5 million consumers/workers. A European tiger if done correctly.

Is this the same cunt who said on the 5th may 2005 "Liverpool don't get us banned from Europe again" Shitbag manc!! :)

Hi Chris. I didn't. Did you not manage to get along yourself then?

been meaning to contact you actually. Some of the ideas we settled at the weekends meeting means that there is some architecture to shape a proper website.. still OK to help with that? If so I can knock some ideas over.

Hi Chris. I didn't. Did you not manage to get along yourself then?

been meaning to contact you actually. Some of the ideas we settled at the weekends meeting means that there is some architecture to shape a proper website.. still OK to help with that? If so I can knock some ideas over.

There's a Manchester launch that I'm going to 2morrow, its easier for me to get to.... I thought we were getting together with Paul sometime soon anyway?

21CL: yes definitely, would still like to help.

How the fuck could Liverpool or ANY other city in the UK cope with being the capital without the infrastructure?

Liverpool has the appealing docks to build government buildings and the infrastructure. That is why those in the know are earmarking Liverpool as the seat of government. Moving the capital was seriously considered in Victorian times and surfaces every 20 years or so. BTW, it is not Liverpool city or Liverpudlians who are suggesting Liverpool as the capital. They see the ideal place in its location, available attractive waterfront space and infrastructure.

Also the inadequacy of the existing parliament buildings is prompting a move too. Moving to Liverpool all makes perfect logical sense. Read the first post on this thread. Lord Hoffman, the most senior law Lord, among many others, is advocating Liverpool as the capital. He is not Liverpool based and is South African.

Nice one. I'll contact Paul now and PM you in a bit?

John. Just to clear a point about government killing enterprise. I did not say that government in itself does this, jus that the sheer volume of the whole of parliament and it's ministries coming to Liverpool would simply overwhelm us. London is huge, so even if you max out Liverpool's city-region we could only talk of 2.5 million over a huge area... we are just not London. It would also kill Manc or the other northern citis if it was plonked on them.

Berlin and Paris are also large... you mentioned Brussels, which is the sort of city that could compare with our maxed out metro... and you can see how the euro parliament and associated baggage utterly dominates that city... who the hell would want to be Brussels? (some nice inner suburbs though!)

Liverpool has the appealing docks to build government buildings and the infrastructure. That is why those in the know are earmarking Liverpool as the seat of government. Moving the capital was seriously considered in Victorian times and surfaces every 20 years or so. BTW, it is not Liverpool city or Liverpudlians who are suggesting Liverpool as the capital. They see the ideal place in its location, available attractive waterfront space and infrastructure.

Also the inadequacy of the existing parliament buildings is prompting a move too. Moving to Liverpool all makes perfect logical sense. Read the first post on this thread. Lord Hoffman, the most senior law Lord, among many others, is advocating Liverpool as the capital. He is not Liverpool based and is South African.

mmm good effort there mac, but you'll struggle to put a decent infrastructure into Liverpool because its World Heritage Status and English Heritage will prevent any serious and meaningful over development of the docks.... its a bitch, but look through some of these threads to see what might have been....

Nice one. I'll contact Paul now and PM you in a bit?

Sure, I'm off to bed soon but pm me anyway.

I still believe in a unified Manchester/Liverpool, Liverpool/Manchester, LM or ML. Two airports both easily accesible from each city and its surrounding urban region. (No airport subordinate to the other) A deep water port, a vast corridor of development land along the ship canal. nearly 5 million consumers/workers. A European tiger if done correctly.

From the Pennine foothills to the sea you can travel through Manchester, Warrington, Widnes, Liverpool and hardly see a field, being one large Metro area. The Ship canal is one 36 mile linear dock. Ships still get up the canal to just before the Quays, although only a few, and ship repairing is still there. The canal could be better utilised, along with the far north Liverpool and Birkenhead docks that is for sure.

It needs a NW assembly to have the power to link and co-ordinate matters, especially transport and infrastructure.

Isn’t John Lennon airport, Liverpool Docks and the ship canal all owned by one company now?

It needs a NW assembly to have the power to link and co-ordinate matters, especially transport and infrastructure.

Hey hey!!!!....... another voice of reason...! Metrolink? Miles? Is that you?

mmm good effort there mac, but you'll struggle to put a decent infrastructure into Liverpool because its World Heritage Status and English Heritage will prevent any serious and meaningful over development of the docks.... its a bitch, but look through some of these threads to see what might have been....

Most of the docks are not covered by the WHS. WHS does not mean anything cannot be touched or used anyhow. Liverpool has the infrastructure already in place, in transport and communications. That is why it is favoured.

I am not making this up.

Is this the same cunt who said on the 5th may 2005 "Liverpool don't get us banned from Europe again" Shitbag manc!! :)

Probably :)

Most of the docks are not covered by the WHS. WHS does not mean anything cannot be touched or used anyhow. Liverpool has the infrastructure already in place, in transport and communications. That is why it is favoured.

I am not making this up.

Ok I used that line myself. The WHS was put in place to preserve the docks, and the red line kind of got out of hand... and it eventually encompassed all the knackered stuff as well as the good stuff. Take my word for it, the footprint of Liverpool (as it stands) is too small to take that kind of administrative infrastructure .... which is why I advocate relentlessly for a Liverpool/Manchester alliance.

Nice one. I'll contact Paul now and PM you in a bit?

John. Just to clear a point about government killing enterprise. I did not say that government in itself does this, jus that the sheer volume of the whole of parliament and it's ministries coming to Liverpool would simply overwhelm us. London is huge, so even if you max out Liverpool's city-region we could only talk of 2.5 million over a huge area... we are just not London. It would also kill Manc or the other northern citis if it was plonked on them.

Berlin and Paris are also large... you mentioned Brussels, which is the sort of city that could compare with our maxed out metro... and you can see how the euro parliament and associated baggage utterly dominates that city... who the hell would want to be Brussels? (some nice inner suburbs though!)

There has been talk over the past 40 years to take depts out of London. Some did move, then a government change and nothing. The Inland Revenue is mainly in Telford, PO in Chesterfield (awful place), SS in Newcastle, licence dept in Swansea. These depts only have token London offices. Any move from London would see the same national distribution, with the head dept offices in Liverpool. The whole of the west end would not decamp in Liverpool. Of course the embassies would drift into Liverpool too. I only see positive aspects from all this.

BTW, I like Brussels. It has a French feel to it. The EU being there has done no harm at all.

Ok I used that line myself. The WHS was put in place to preserve the docks, and the red line kind of got out of hand... and it eventually encompassed all the knackered stuff as well as the good stuff. Take my word for it, the footprint of Liverpool (as it stands) is too small to take that kind of administrative infrastructure .... which is why I advocate relentlessly for a Liverpool/Manchester alliance.

The Liverpool Docks are massive with an amazing amount of attrractive space that will swallow up Whtehall for sure. The Heritage site are mainly in the centre off the river. The only part away from the centre is Central Docks. Liverpool can fit the government and it paraphinalia into the Docks that is for sure.

The Liverpool Docks are massive with an amazing amount of attrractive space that will swallow up Whtehall for sure. The Heritage site are mainly in the centre off the river. The only part away from the centre is Central Docks. Liverpool can fit the government and it paraphinalia into the Docks that is for sure.

Ok. Well lets say you can put all the gvt depts in the docks, which you can't, but lets say you can. Where would you put all the attendant services, transport links and ... on a basic level, the embassies, there's a lot of em.... count em....
http://www.embassiesabroad.com/embassy.cfm?embassy=home&countryID=27

Ok. Well lets say you can put all the gvt depts in the docks, which you can't,

You obviously know nothing about the Liverpool docks to write that.


but lets say you can. Where would you put all the attendant services, transport links and ... on a basic level, the embassies,

Transport links? Already there, installed for the Dock complex. Liverpool still has two long disused tunnels from Edge Hill to the south docks and one to the north docks. All waiting to be brought back to use. Liverpool has it own semi-circular ring motorway and a motorway virtually goes to Seaforth Docks. Liverpool has an abundance of rail lines too,

Embassies? They can be scattered around as they are in London. I’m sure Canning would take many, as a number of consulates are already there. Small countries only need an office floor or even less, and Liverpool will have lots of office space. Liverpool is scattered with large Victorian houses of the old ship owners and merchants - hell of a lot. These are ideal for embassies. The Yanks would obviously build a massive embassy of course.

Sorry guys to go on about this regional thingy, but I have just been watching a great programme on BBC4 where a lot of the same 'pro' language was being used.

We have to be ready for global competition
these small units can't survive on their own - bigger is better
we need to combine our forces, work together to create a massive presence that cannot be ignored, an unbeatable force.....etc... so they set up BLMC!

statist utopia.. we would have the same public sector fuckwitts running this mega metro into the ground just like they did with that.

Sorry to badger you john and I know this is not your idea, but you haven't addressed the first question I asked raised yet. Why on earth would we want to do this? Why would we want to be the capital of England or UK?

Sorry guys to go on about this regional thingy, but I have just been watching a great programme on BBC4 where a lot of the same 'pro' language was being used.

We have to be ready for global competition
these small units can't survive on their own - bigger is better
we need to combine our forces, work together to create a massive presence that cannot be ignored, an unbeatable force.....etc... so they set up BLMC!


BLMC worked as one unit. When split it disappeared.

interesting interpretaton!
BLMC ruined the component companies and seperation was a last ditch attempt to save something.... the seperation delayed the inevitable.

Rover: The long goodbye the prog was called... BBC4
had a good bit in it about turther fucking the company with the heritage obsession that could have been about Liverpool!

Sorry to badger you john and I know this is not your idea, but you haven't addressed the first question I asked raised yet. Why on earth would we want to do this? Why would we want to be the capital of England or UK?

I am a firm believer that the capital has to leave London to unify the country – the prime reason. For reasons in the first post of this thread the capital has to be around the Merseyside/Deeside area. Liverpool has the attractive waterfront space for such a capital move and the infrastructure too – and a well known city name world-wide. The ideal choice. It all points to Liverpool, it all falls into place. Most of the outsiders of this proposition state Liverpool. They are the initiators.

Then there is the economics of moving government depts away from London. They would go everywhere, with just the head offices in Liverpool, along with parliament buildings and embassies. That is general and advocated by non-Liverpudlians.

But what is in it for Liverpool and its people? No, it will not become a Brazillia, as it is not a green field development. It will fill a welcome gap in the docks to make the city attractive and the eventual aim of the Venice of northern Europe. More flights into John Lennon from major cities giving the other industries of the city a leg up – a positive there. Then there is the positive image that a capital would give. More people, so more restaurants, etc. And many would be 5 star too. Then it would give employment in the government offices and service backup that goes with the lot. Then more tourists too - more wealth creation. The government would insist the local population desist from this litter habit they have - another positive step than clean up the city giving a good image. A greater demand for high quality houses will initially be here – more employment creation and raising housing standards. This can all work alongside the existing, or new industries that the city has. Forget the old shipping and trading commerce that has largely gone and will not return in the old form. Liverpool needs a new role and to re-invent itself and should welcome such an approach to host the capital.

There is no reason why the seat of government should suppress anything at all, as it can act alone in isolation, but give positive spins offs for the rest of industry and commerce. Also for the region it would be beneficial right as far as Manchester. Liverpool is a great base for a visitor, with the Lake District up the road, North Wales to the south, Isle of Man on the SeaCat. Four of the world’s finest golf course on its doorstep, the Grand National too. The surrounds of Liverpool most capital cities in Europe would drool over.

I can see why cities like New York and Sydney would not want the capital, but Liverpool is not in the same economic league as them. Their industries would be stifled by the governments depts, while in Liverpool they would benefit from what the government would bring. For a new British capital city, all logic points to Liverpool in many aspects, not just regeneration, which is only short term anyhow. A capital may have to be there 500 years, so the choice of city has to be solid and right. I can’t see why anyone would not want the seat of government in Liverpool as it all makes sense.

Okay, I've just read this thread from start to finish. Should I laugh or cry?

Nice one John, case well put. Like you I see it as absolutely essential that powere is taken away from the centre. The UK as many have mentioned on this post is horrifically over centralised. The other side of the question posed is the one I disagree with. I think it would stifle a city the size of Liverpool.

As you say, we are not NYC or Sydney so it is even more important that we are not distracted from the core role cities must provide... wealth and enterprise. It is only these that provide the real excess for social and cultural facilities. Liverpool has an over heavy relience on the public sector now... just because some of these would have national power and remit does not mean huge benefits for us. You are right though about the airport... I just see more negatives than positives.

Sorry guys to go on about this regional thingy, but I have just been watching a great programme on BBC4 where a lot of the same 'pro' language was being used.

We have to be ready for global competition
these small units can't survive on their own - bigger is better
we need to combine our forces, work together to create a massive presence that cannot be ignored, an unbeatable force.....etc... so they set up BLMC!

statist utopia.. we would have the same public sector fuckwitts running this mega metro into the ground just like they did with that.

Sorry to badger you john and I know this is not your idea, but you haven't addressed the first question I asked raised yet. Why on earth would we want to do this? Why would we want to be the capital of England or UK?

I agree with you about statism and the public sector should remain as small as possible, especially the public sector that runs local government. It shouldn't become a place for party appointees.

Despite the semantics I think that `Liverpool` has for very many years been the `alternative capital` which in a good way is good for democracy.

We do not require to be the goverment and we will occasionally submit to be the governed for the sake of unity.

Other than that we are a free spirit.

Okay, I've just read this thread from start to finish. Should I laugh or cry?

You should cry as Yorkshire is being ripped off by the South East like the rest of us. We have internal colonialism. The old colonial empire attitude never went away, they just applied it to within the UK after the empire went.

Nice one John, case well put. Like you I see it as absolutely essential that powere is taken away from the centre. The UK as many have mentioned on this post is horrifically over centralised. The other side of the question posed is the one I disagree with. I think it would stifle a city the size of Liverpool.

As you say, we are not NYC or Sydney so it is even more important that we are not distracted from the core role cities must provide... wealth and enterprise. It is only these that provide the real excess for social and cultural facilities. Liverpool has an over heavy reliance on the public sector now... just because some of these would have national power and remit does not mean huge benefits for us. You are right though about the airport... I just see more negatives than positives.

Let's get it clear. Liverpool is still a poor city despite much regeneration and construction going on. Will it remain poor with empty office blocks?

The city is still largely tatty and strewn with litter despite some half hearted efforts by the council to clean up the place before next year. It has been said that Liverpool has a people problem - they are immensely proud of their city and heritage and individuality, but think nothing of defacing the buildings and streets. They collectively need to change their mindset. A paradox.

You appear to think that Liverpool is on the crest of a big economic wave and all will return as it was in the late 1800s and the government wanting a bit of that action. Liverpool is on a small back wave than can fall at any minute. It actually needs something like the capital – the city needs a catapult to re-invent itself.

It needs those docks sorting out and the government would do this with buildings, commercial and residential. The council are a joke even filling many of them in. Sheer madness. Cheap developers like Wimpey would have fallen over themselves to build tat around the filled in docks. I would rather have Wimpey tat than no dock at all. At least the cheap tat can be demolished in the future. Liverpool Council can’t be trusted in developing the docks into the Venice of northern Europe, as if developed properly a Venice it would be. What city would not want that? This incompetent bunch of fools don’t know a gift horse when it stares at them.

Despite the semantics I think that `Liverpool` has for very many years been the `alternative capital` which in a good way is good for democracy.

If Liverpool is some sort of abstract alternative capital as you think, where is the economic spin off? Abstract money too.

Liverpool Council can’t be trusted in developing the docks into the Venice of northern Europe, as if developed properly a Venice it would be. What city would not want that? This incompetent bunch of fools don’t know a gift horse when it stares at them.

One of the things I would have loved to have seen is the restoration of the old Pool.
We could have had a shallow canal running from the Old Dock the length of Paradise St.
It could have been done given that all of Paradise St is being redeveloped.
A great opportunity lost in my honest opinion.

Let's get it clear. Liverpool is still a poor city despite much regeneration and construction going on. Will it remain poor with empty office blocks?

The city is still largely tatty and strewn with litter despite some half hearted efforts by the council to clean up the place before next year. It has been said that Liverpool has a people problem - they are immensely proud of their city and heritage and individuality, but think nothing of defacing the buildings and streets. They collectively need to change their mindset. A paradox.

You appear to think that Liverpool is on the crest of a big economic wave and all will return as it was in the late 1800s and the government wanting a bit of that action. Liverpool is on a small back wave than can fall at any minute. It actually needs something like the capital – the city needs a catapult to re-invent itself.

It needs those docks sorting out and the government would do this with buildings, commercial and residential. The council are a joke even filling many of them in. Sheer madness. Cheap developers like Wimpey would have fallen over themselves to build tat around the filled in docks. I would rather have Wimpey tat than no dock at all. At least the cheap tat can be demolished in the future. Liverpool Council can’t be trusted in developing the docks into the Venice of northern Europe, as if developed properly a Venice it would be. What city would not want that? This incompetent bunch of fools don’t know a gift horse when it stares at them.

I can't disagree with any of your sentiments, save the central one that it would be a good thing if Liverpool were to be the centre of a new parliament. I might have A problem with the venice comparison as well, as that is a dead city and impossible to live in, which I'm sure that we don't want for Liverpool?

I believe that Liverpool must tap what potential it has to bain any sustainable role in the future. This may indeed be of such force that we could again become a financial centre of world repute again... or it may fizzle out after a few thousand jobs had been created. We do not know... but there is only one way to find out, moving the capital to Liverpool would, in my opinion distract us from exploring properly what role we can craft in the world.

This new initiative 21st century Liverpool aims to do just that.... explore the areas that if tapped properly would help provide the dynamic that would place Liverpool back in the world of great cities... an active role however and not just the 'place' we have there right now... which generates nothing for us at present. it is the place (rather tha its currently non existant role) we have in the global psyche that we have to our advantage over other northern cities... I think we should look at fully utilising this...

I can't disagree with any of your sentiments, save the central one that it would be a good thing if Liverpool were to be the centre of a new parliament. I might have A problem with the venice comparison as well, as that is a dead city and impossible to live in, which I'm sure that we don't want for Liverpool?

OK, Amsterdam then. That is a vibrant attractive city full of waterways. Venice is a rather dead city, but still vibrant and highly attractive. DeGualle created La Defence west of the Paris centre with no restriction on architecture, etc, to make it a commercial dynamo. He didn’t want Paris becoming a Venice. It worked and London Docklands was largely based on La Defence. At least Paris had attractive parts to it to protect an create the need for a commercial centre. Much of Liverpool docks are part or full derelict. They are no Venice or Amsterdam – yet. Hopefully in 20 years time Liverpool creates a LaDefence to leave the fully developed attractive docks and heritage sites alone as commerce is booming.


I believe that Liverpool must tap what potential it has to bain any sustainable role in the future. This may indeed be of such force that we could again become a financial centre of world repute again... or it may fizzle out after a few thousand jobs had been created. We do not know... but there is only one way to find out, moving the capital to Liverpool would, in my opinion distract us from exploring properly what role we can craft in the world.


You are gambling. Attempting to make Liverpool a financial might again is clutching at straws and harks back to nostalgia. The chance of it happening is slim indeed. And it is a gamble to attempt it. If the capital id offered that is clear and stable and should be taken. You have the impression that it is either/or. The seat of government and commercial activity can co-exist. OK, Liverpool will never be a London, but I suppose it could do better, and what a confidence booster if the Government choose the city as its home.


This new initiative 21st century Liverpool aims to do just that.... explore the areas that if tapped properly would help provide the dynamic that would place Liverpool back in the world of great cities... an active role however and not just the 'place' we have there right now... which generates nothing for us at present. it is the place (rather tha its currently non existant role) we have in the global psyche that we have to our advantage over other northern cities... I think we should look at fully utilising this...

I agree that all attempts to improve and generate new commerce should be pursued, but it is all pie in the sky and may not happen at all. A gamble. As I have, said having the capital there would only assist these aims, not hinder them. I can’t see why you think otherwise.

We will just have to disagree on this theoretical point. I just want to pick you up on one issue so as to create a little clarity. I don't think that Liverpool could ever recapture the magnitude of financial and commercial clout it had in the 19th Centurey... those days will never come again and probably better that they wouldn't. What I meant was maximising our potential... this could, conceivably lead to all sorts of things, but this notion of % is not what I'm on about. For me Liverpool being a great world city would be one that generated lots of business, had its trading and cultural links with other cities around the world and a solid brokerage and banking infrastructure to help build opportunities further.

far from being a wild speculative punt this is the surest way to generate wealth and jobs. Competing with other shitholes for inward investment is a hard grind. tapping what ever potential is latent in the city's population generated the city's former dynamism and tapping that is not nostalgia for the past, but the best way to identify our future role... this may be completely difffernt to anything we have done before... but that is what dynamic cities also do, the evolve, stay viatal and therefore relevant.

far from being a wild speculative punt this is the surest way to generate wealth and jobs. Competing with other shitholes for inward investment is a hard grind. tapping what ever potential is latent in the city's population generated the city's former dynamism and tapping that is not nostalgia for the past, but the best way to identify our future role... this may be completely difffernt to anything we have done before... but that is what dynamic cities also do, the evolve, stay viatal and therefore relevant.

First of all you have to know what you are good at. It is no good trying to introduce industries that we don’t have the skills for. Creative, educated people? We certainly need more of them. In the 1970/80s large swathes of the educated creative class of Liverpool left the city, leaving it a largely a working class city. Those left phaffed and screwed around and did the best they could. Some were just plain incompetent in running the city in government and commerce. Few had any vision of any descrition obessed with creating a working class stronghold. The inmates running the asylum. The city naturally slid down further. A hostile Westminster government did not help either, and they were the prime reason for the slide.

Now Liverpool is on the up many of these prodigal sons are returning with valuable experience, education, skills, business acumen and contacts. The Irish government know the value of its millions of exiled citizens, who also have a more progressive broad minded attitude to the locals, and are actively cajoling them back. These returning Liverpudlians in a similar way have a lot to offer and in many ways outshine the locals and may be a part of the solution.

The secret for Liverpool is diversification, although not attracting large scale manufacturing industry which Liverpool is not that good at, and not having all the eggs in one basket – as Sheffield did with steel. There will always be the port as the bedrock, but growing less important to other sectors such as tourism. There is no sure fire way to create jobs; it is a matter of seizing opportunities as they arise and having the skills and business acumen available to make it work. We need people who can operate in foreign parts and put the UK, who look down on the city, on the back burner. We face the sea again and turn our backs on the land - the key to the world success in the 1800s.

^^ Hey, good post!

First of all you have to know what you are good at. It is no good trying to introduce industries that we don’t have the skills for. Creative, educated people? We could have more of them. In the 1970/80s large swathes of the educated creative class of Liverpool left the city, leaving it a largely a working class city. They phaffed and screwed around and did the best they could. Some were just plain incompetent in running the city in government and commerce. The inmates running the asylum. It naturally slid down further. A hostile Westminster government did not help either.

Now Liverpool is on the up many of these prodigal sons are returning with valuable experience, education, skills, business acumen and contacts. The Irish government know the value of its millions exiled citizens, who also have a more progressive broad minded attitude to the locals, and are actively cajoling them back. These returning Liverpudlians in a similar way have a lot to offer and in many ways outshine the locals and may be a part of the solution.

The secret for Liverpool is diversification, although not attracting large scale manufacturing industry which Liverpool is not that good at, and not having all the eggs in one basket – as Sheffield did with steel. There will always be the port as the bedrock, but growing less important to other sectors such as tourism. There is no sure fire way to create jobs; it is a matter of seizing opportunities as they arise and having the kills and business acumen available to make it work. We need people whop can operate in foreign parts and put the UK, who lokk down on the city, on the back burner.

Bloody perfect John... couldn't have put it better myself. Now!!!
Taking what you have just said about how business works and how jobs are generated, I am saying that we need to explore what talents we have here or are available via Liverpool's terribly large international diaspora to find out
a. what we're good at.. or can become good at
b. Have this as the priority for growth rather than relying on inward investment (the branch plants you describe etc)
c. Deal with the world rather than spurious regional partnerships or suffer the continued overbearing drain by London

The issue about the whole government moving to Liverpool has been thrown into the equation. Say this is right... and it is then formally REJECTED... what do we focus on then? What should we have been eyeing up in the event of failure to grasp parliaments relocation?

If you have an answer for that I would say that this is what we should be concentrating on anyway.. and having the massive inconvenience of government here would distract us from looking as fully at these possibilities.

Of course we can grow an economy that enables the city to revive its place in the world... if we can't then we may as well all pack our bags now as Westminster ain't coming to Liverpool... even if it did then it would not be for decades. Do we just wait in case it ever happens? lets build up those docks properly ourselves.

Bloody perfect John... couldn't have put it better myself. Now!!!
Taking what you have just said about how business works and how jobs are generated, I am saying that we need to explore what talents we have here or are available via Liverpool's terribly large international diaspora to find out
a. what we're good at.. or can become good at
b. Have this as the priority for growth rather than relying on inward investment (the branch plants you describe etc)
c. Deal with the world rather than spurious regional partnerships or suffer the continued overbearing drain by London


Liverpudlians are good at retail: Leahy of Tesco (European businessman of the Year a few years ago), Hargreaves of Matalan. Even Next was founded by a Liverpudlian. In the arts, Kenwright of Everton FC is a successful impresario. Liverpudlians are good at business and make good businessmen. We are not just all arts.

The Liverpool Chamber of Commerce should be offering courses on how to trade Internationally. Languages shoudl be encouraged and taught too.

The issue about the whole government moving to Liverpool has been thrown into the equation. Say this is right... and it is then formally REJECTED... what do we focus on then?

International trading is one aspect and tourism from abroad. Although the city has to be cleaned up and severe fines for littering - this is anti-social behaviour which the government is making a big thing about. Having a one years litter purge hoping the people will keep it up is wishful thinking. A few months before the 1966 world cup the council put special Keep Lioverpool Tidy signs on lamp posts. Afterwards it was back to normal.

What should we have been eyeing up in the event of failure to grasp parliaments relocation?

If you have an answer for that I would say that this is what we should be concentrating on anyway.. and having the massive inconvenience of government here would distract us from looking as fully at these possibilities.

Of course we can grow an economy that enables the city to revive its place in the world... if we can't then we may as well all pack our bags now as Westminster ain't coming to Liverpool... even if it did then it would not be for decades. Do we just wait in case it ever happens? lets build up those docks properly ourselves.

A physically attractive city is the first and prime requisite. It attracts people in tourism and companies who maybe want a North West office, or full relocation. The place must be tidied up and the derelict buildings got rid of or renovated. Pittsburgh introduced Land Value Tax and all their vacant building disappeared quickly. But Westminster will not allow the city to implement LVT. Litter wardens and heavy publicised fines for litter and dumping is up to the local council to implement, which historically they have been reluctant to do for fear of losing votes - as one councillor once said to be sropping litter is ingrained in their culture (bizzar and he may have apoint). Planning restrictions must ne relaxed but sympathetic with the old. If many of the proposals that are knocking around are serious, some are not, and they are fast-tracked through the planning system we will have a super skyscape – this attracts and unfortunately is a progressive symbol.

A major part of all this image revamp is the important docks. Industry, even light industry should have no part in the docks – commerce and residential and entertainment & leisure only. Filled in docks should be excavated with developers being made aware of this and encouraged to submit plans – they love water. Harrington, Toxteth and Bidston Docks are easy to dig back out. Too late for Kings Dock. In parts the Dock Rd should disappear as it acts as a barrier. The docks should merge into the city with no barriers between.

Planning should also be relaxed in all the city, not just the centre, and the green fields beyond to encourage new high class housing. The land should be cheap so as to make bigger plots and higher quality homes. Screw the Greenbelt which is a total nonsense. The greenbelt was supposed to be a ring of land around cities so the population could enjoy – it never happened as the land has farms on it and even industry. It is used by country people to keep out the hated townies, ramming them into overcrowded cities. Not everyone wants to live in a tower block and those with families certainly not.
Read these. Eye opening:

http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/uploads/media/Unaffordable_Housing_-_final_text_-_10_June_2005.pdf
http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/uploads/media/Bigger_Better_Faster_More_-_final.pdf
http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/uploads/media/BetterHomes_GreenerCities_2_.pdf

Once people see all this progress and how attractive it is, with cheap high quality homes available, then confidence is lifted and they will come in. Talented exiled Liverpudlians will return and they should be actively encouraged back. All talent is welcome as that is how Liverpool was formed by encouraging enterprising people from just about everywhere on the planet, hence the mixed cosmopolitan nature of the people. With returning exiles they will have more of an emotional attachment to make matters work and will buy in 100%. Outsiders may just use Liverpool to make money and get out, as is the case with London.

To start, concentrate on the base we already have: tourism (history), the port, banking and commerce and to a lesser extent music – why isn’t there a major recording industry in Liverpool, a city synonymous with music? Artists should come here from all over the world to record. These industries can be expanded and the rest will follow.

Liverpool has the appealing docks to build government buildings and the infrastructure. That is why those in the know are earmarking Liverpool as the seat of government. Moving the capital was seriously considered in Victorian times and surfaces every 20 years or so. BTW, it is not Liverpool city or Liverpudlians who are suggesting Liverpool as the capital. They see the ideal place in its location, available attractive waterfront space and infrastructure.

Also the inadequacy of the existing parliament buildings is prompting a move too. Moving to Liverpool all makes perfect logical sense. Read the first post on this thread. Lord Hoffman, the most senior law Lord, among many others, is advocating Liverpool as the capital. He is not Liverpool based and is South African.

Oh pray tell, please do explain in detail this amazing world beating infrastructure that Liverpool has. Your airport is soooo easy to get to...NOT! Your Merseyrail underground thingy can really rival Paris for coverage and service right?London has probably the most extensive and comprehensive public transport system in the world, how then could Liverpool cope if London cannot?

This is pure fantasy, nobody thinks about Liverpool being the nations capital except deluded scousers, get over it and yourself JohnMK, it's never gonna happen EVER!!! LOL :bash:

Why don't you have a go at being the NW capital before anything else, but then again, that ain't gonna happen either is it.

How's the balloon blowing going for 2008?

Oh, they do get exciteed when anybody posts something stupid over this side!

Although I think it would be a ridiculous idea to move the government to Liverpool, I must say again that the point of the person who started the thread was not... "is Liverpool the capital or should we be the capital because 'we're the best'"... just if this stupid idea that was mooted by someone in the House of Lords was a good one or not!

I presume by your NW capital shot you assume that is Mancs role... why are you making imperialist claims over our city by promoting a bogus concept?

shall we take a poll?

No need.. it is a stupid idea with no support... or do you mean about Liverpool or Manc being capital of t'northwest?... that could open a can of worms... post it on your forum if you want one?.... there's enough shit going on this side at the moment.

Well thats what I thought, but you can't blame a few Mancs for getting a little pissed off with knobs who say WE are obsessed while they consistantly slag us off for no real reason. Go ahead with this ridiculous idea of Liverpool becoming the capital city if you want, see how far you get. Its a joke. I'd be happy for Manchester to just be the best it can be, whatever that entails, without these ridiculous claims.

No Rolybling, you missed the point of the thread.

On your other point, I couldn't agree more... manchester should indeed tap it's many talents to 'be the best we can'... and Liverpool can be the same... no limits, no restrictions... so drop this silly notion that you're kings of this strange t'northwest thing, with the implication of being our titular masters that this soviet notion implies?

Both cities are great...lots of good and lots of shite too... any body who agrees with this point should spend their time on the other thread that is going really wobbly right now!

No Rolybling, you missed the point of the thread.

On your other point, I couldn't agree more... manchester should indeed tap it's many talents to be the best we can... and Liverpool can be the same... so drop this silly notion that you're kings of t'northwest with the implication of being our titular masters that this soviet notion implies?

Both cities are great...lots of good and lots of shite too... any body who agrees with this point should spend their time on the other thread that is going really wobbly right now!

:applause:

LoL! I was in there editing that to try and make it a bit more sensible... it's much better now!

I wish everyone would just discuss real issues like the regeneration of our city and stop mentioning Manchester all the time because quite frankly I couldn't give a flying fuck what happens there,this is our forum and we should be discussing our regeneration projects,PSDA,Central Docks,Kings Dock anyone remember them? Instead we get side tracked all the time,let's get back to topic lads. :)

Well thats what I thought, but you can't blame a few Mancs for getting a little pissed off with knobs who say WE are obsessed while they consistantly slag us off for no real reason.

No, Liverpudlians just respond in kind.


Go ahead with this ridiculous idea of Liverpool becoming the capital city if you want, see how far you get. Its a joke. I'd be happy for Manchester to just be the best it can be, whatever that entails, without these ridiculous claims.

It is not our idea. Those in the Commons and Lords who are for it are not liverpudliand. The idea nver came from us. That has been stated many times on this thread, but it appears difficult to sink in with the likes of you.

I wish everyone would just discuss real issues like the regeneration of our city and stop mentioning Manchester all the time because quite frankly I couldn't give a flying fuck what happens there,this is our forum and we should be discussing our regeneration projects,PSDA,Central Docks,Kings Dock anyone remember them? Instead we get side tracked all the time,let's get back to topic lads. :)


Listen to this man. He speaks(types), sense!!

Listen to this man. He speaks(types), sense!!

:cheers:Whatever happened to the days when we got off on how far our cities have improved? I honestly believe we should all be ecstatic by the amount of regeneration we have both seen recently and consentrate on that alone,not what's going on with the opposition? People shouldn't care less what's happening here or indeed in Manchester because in the scheme of things it doesn't matter,I just want my kids to grow up in a very different city to which I was brought up in and that will be the case.At the end of the day all's you need is a roof over your head and plenty of holidays and lots of days out and your laughing. :cheers:

Excellent points that should be the perfect end to a convoluted thread... they won't, but they should!

Oh pray tell, please do explain in detail this amazing world beating infrastructure that Liverpool has. Your airport is soooo easy to get to...NOT!

Yes it is in fact. Duel carriageways all the way – easy from the M62, M56, via Runcorn bridge and the new crossing to come. It does need a rail terminal though, which is not that difficult to do, as lines are not far away. It is also quite near the city centre which Ringway is certainly not. It can also do night flights as the plane come in and go over the wide river estuary.


Your Merseyrail underground thingy can really rival Paris for coverage and service right?

No it can't and no one said that. Stop making things up.


London has probably the most extensive and comprehensive public transport system in the world, how then could Liverpool cope if London cannot?

Merseyrail is quite comprehensive and there is much more scope for it as Liverpool is festooned with abandoned tunnels, stations and used and disused rail lines. Two long tunnels pass right under the centre, The Waterloo tunnel to Central Docks, and Wapping Tunnel to the Kings Dock. They can be brought back to use and underground stations cut in them if need be. It is all there.

London can’t cope? You fail to see that London hogs the government and the financial sector, the reason for a movement to get the capital away from London. Look it up and I not making it up.


This is pure fantasy,


The infrastructure? No. It is excellent indeed. It more than copes with the cities needs and has great, already in place, scope for expansion too.


nobody thinks about Liverpool being the nations capital except deluded scousers,


It is not us that is proposing it. It is influential people in the Commons, Lords and think tanks. We just want to know what is in it for us. If there is to be a change of capital then Liverpool is the perfect choice for reasons outlined on this thread.


How's the balloon blowing going for 2008?

How's the next Olympic bid going? What amazed me was that you all believed your own propaganda. As one Mancunian sitting next to me at the time said, "Manchester is a dump compared to the other cities bidding, we haven't a hope." He thought it embarrassing that city would even consider bidding, the state the city was in.

Your sneering responses are typical of Mancunians. Reaks of jealousy.

Your sneering responses are typical of Mancunians. Reaks of jealousy.



Most ironic post. Ever. Was he not just "responding in kind" ? :nuts:

Just what century do you live in mate, do us all a favour and get packing. You've done nothing for this forum.

Most ironic post. Ever. Was he not just "responding in kind"

What is he doing on a Liverpool forum? He was sneering and slagging and got his nose rubbed in it.

Just what century do you live in mate, do us all a favour and get packing. You've done nothing for this forum.

Stick to your own then.