Hello everyone, in my experience talking with clients, I have heard my share of interest or curiosity on Loft units, as there are more companies coming out with it. I have also heard numerous misunderstandings on Loft units

Considering future designs of G&W towers, we wanted to know what you think or what you prefer...Loft Units or Flat Units? Why?

As Architects, we have studied that Flat units are still more beneficial for clients, as it can give better efficiency in design and result in bigger rooms (given the same floor area). It is also beneficial for elderly clients who specifically choose condominiums for the ease of moving up and down elevators and not having to have stairs to deal with.

Although Flat units are more expensive to build than lofts are, we still stick to this format because we feel it is better for the clients. However, we would love to hear people's comments on this if possible...

Gibson,
This is an interesting thread you opened up here. There was a brief discussion of the practicality and efficiency of the loft layout in the MPR (McKinley Park Residence) thread which I'm reposting to this thread due to the topic at hand. Hope it helps not only with your info gathering but also provide good information for others especially to those looking to buy/invest in one. Hope it generates further discussion about the topic. Needless to say, for my money, I'd rather have/buy a unit with a traditional condo/flat layout than a loft/bi-level one in the Philippines. :)

Don't you think the loft layout is more appropriately suited for temperate climate than one that's tropical? In the Philippines the tropical weather (hot & humid) necessitates the use of some type of cooling system such as air-conditioning and since you can't effectively isolate, segregate or section off the different living areas in a loft unit because of it's two story open layout design (unless you wall/glass/curtain off areas which defeats the purpose of having a loft), there is a bigger area to cool down which translates to higher electricity bill. I remember having to pay higher gas/electric bill especially during summer and winter months which is why I'm just sharing my observation based on my own loft living experience here in the U.S. so what more kaya sa Pinas which is so hot and humid most of if not throughout the whole year.

Granted the loft's open layout is designed to make the unit look airy ("maaliwalas" or "fresco") tingnan, it's not really that energy efficient especially if you have two story walls of glass windows facing the West. It'll bring a lot of light in as well as the heat kanya init din sigurado niyan. Same reason I did not invest in a glassy building development in Pinas/FBGC because the Manila Golf / Makati skyline I covete necessitates choosing a West facing unit. And since nakabilad yang unit sa afternoon sun mas mahirap at matagal din mapalamig yung unit so just imagine how much worse a loft unit will be because of the combination of all that glass, open floor plan and high ceiling. And since hot hair tends to float up while cold air sinks, the loft area (2nd floor), which is normally used as the master's bedroom, is where one will experience the most temperature swings. also.. pag bi levels (lofts) medyo reduce ang noise.. kasi nga high ang ceiling.. unlike sa ibang condo.. like don sa condo nang friend ko sa boni ridge.. konting ingay lang.. nag complain na yung tenant sa baba.. eh papaano na kaya kung talagang may party.. it is energy efficient when it comes to natural lighting, pag high ceiling, more light will come to the place. pero just like what kuya boe said pag sobrang init nga coz' the sun will pass directly to warm the air and surface there. Yes Steph tama ka, The loft concept is efficient bringing light in since a portion of the total second floor area closest to the windows is left open to the lower floor but the sun light will also warm up the whole place (especially the upper floor) which means in tropical weather like the Philippines, mas iinit yung unit so mas madalas at malakas din ang gamit ng aircon para palamigin yang unit which is where the inefficiency comes in. I still think mas malakas ang gamit ng electricity magpalamig ng unit kaysa mag ilaw which was why I said lofts are not really that energy efficient. Again, it's more of an observation which I'd like to share to who ever is interested in trying out loft living and I am not in any way bad mouthing loft projects/developments for that matter. ok naman ang concept nila na lofts eh, atleast iba sila... pero i think it's not that hot naman coz' of the high ceiling, pag mas malaki ang space, mas hindi ganun kainit, sabi nga nila, refreshing atmosphere nga... but you have point about the place when it comes to cooling it... Another observation I have regarding Loft layouts/units is it does not make efficient use of space. The stairs and high ceiling not only eat up valuable space, but also not very child & elderly friendly when a unit is bi-level. Furthermore the size of a typical 1 bdrm loft unit is on the smaller side so in reality I would have had to either go with a 2 or 3 bedroom unit which makes the price point not as attractive and enticing anymore. Tapos nga aside from being rather small and tight downstairs, the upstairs (bedroom) naman also tends to get quite rather hot (hot air rises and stays on the upper floor). Though loft type units let a lot of light in and provides an airy feel, it also absorbs a lot of the sunlight and the open layout makes it more expensive to cool down than a regular condo layout imo. Just my observation lang naman.

Clarifiction between multi-level units and loft.

We designed a multi-level unit before for a developer (LPL GReenhills - across Club Filipino), which is actually 2 storeys of a building with stairs inside the unit. The is an actual 2 storey unit with full ceiling heights.

Lofts are more of 1.8 storeys, where both levels are a little lower than standard. I noticed this in the Rockwell project before in their model unit. It is high, if you compare it to a single flat unit, but it is actually lower than 2 storeys.

The predicament lies in the fact that the higher the ceiling heights, the longer the stairway is, the less efficient the use of the space is. It was only beneficial with the LP towers as the unit areas are very big there!

I was surprised to see that units as small as 38 sqm were made into lofts, which meant that it is only 19sqm of area on each level. Consider the fact that they have to build a stairway, with unusable area on the top and the bottom of it (that eats up from your small 19 sqm unit). The ratio of usable and unusable space is quite high.

Somehow, the people I hear that likes it says it feels like it is bigger or thinks that it is bigger?!

Does anybody know if the 38 sqm is only the lower floor and the floored area on the top floor, or does it include the open space that they don't build on?

it's like 25 sqm on the lower floor and another 13 sqm on the loft..

Clarifiction between multi-level units and loft.

We designed a multi-level unit before for a developer (LPL GReenhills - across Club Filipino), which is actually 2 storeys of a building with stairs inside the unit. The is an actual 2 storey unit with full ceiling heights.

Lofts are more of 1.5 storeys, where both levels are a little lower than standard. I noticed this in the Rockwell project before in their model unit. It is high, if you compare it to a single flat unit, but it is actually lower than 2 storeys.

The predicament lies in the fact that the higher the ceiling heights, the longer the stairway is, the less efficient the use of the space is. It was only beneficial with the LP towers as the unit areas are very big there!

I was surprised to see that units as small as 38 sqm were made into lofts, which meant that it is only 19sqm of area on each level. Consider the fact that they have to build a stairway, with unusable area on the top and the bottom of it (that eats up from your small 19 sqm unit). The ratio of usable and unusable space is quite high.

Somehow, the people I hear that likes it says it feels like it is bigger or thinks that it is bigger?!

Does anybody know if the 38 sqm is only the lower floor and the floored area on the top floor, or does it include the open space that they don't build on?

it's like 25 sqm on the lower floor and another 13 sqm on the loft..

Ah, thanks for the clarification... :)

Oh, by the way, my room in our old house used to be loft type as well. I had computer/study area and book shelves on the top floor :)

^^ I find loft units really appealing... but you're quite right about the inefficient use of space. In the end, if I have to decide between a loft unit and a flat condo with the same price point, I'd probably go for the latter as it would be more practical.

Gibson, Yup tama si Dvorak that generally speaking in a loft the lower floor's finished area has a bigger useable area footage than the upper floor since a portion of the upper-floor space (usually closest to the window) is left open to the lower floor. That's why there is a double whammy of wasted/inefficient use of space (the staircase and the open space) in a loft layout which is nakakahinayang kasi you are really paying top money for useable square footage when buying a unit in a cosmo city/metropolis such as FBGC, Makati, or Ortigas so imo it's better to maximize your space di ba. Lofts are a novelty in Pinas since it's a rather new concept there and only time will tell if this concept will trascend fad and become part of the mainstream option.

Btw just another observation. As far as views, lofts offer a narrower but higher/vertical views while a flat/condo allows for a wider/horizontal view given a unit of the same useable area footage. If one compares this to a TV set, the loft will be the standard 3X4 aspect ratio while the flat/condo will be the HD 16X9. Mas picturesque when you have a wider view since you get alot more of it which is another reason I also like/prefer a flat over a loft. :)

Gibson, I think lofts are a good idea and because of the taller headroom, it has more of an airy feel to it. However it is best if the unit is of good size as somewhat similar here in Soho NY where they converted those old run down factories into an expansive lofts. I think over there it's more of a fad since the idea of loft designs are fairly new, but then again, I've never seen an actual loft with smaller size.
For smaller size loft maybe it's more space saving to use a spiral staircase.

I would imagine that a loft-style unit will be less expensive than a multi-level unit, right? The price point will always be a factor. I'm just surprised that they will cram a loft into a 38 sq.m. floor area with 1.8 story. I think it would be better be called a box-style living, the second floor being a mezzanine.

Forumer @Bustero designed one before but it was geared for low-cost condo-housing

Another question that comes to mind about the heating/cooling system, is this project going to be centralized airconditioning or separate airconditioning units?

I prefer flat na high ceiling :)

it's like 25 sqm on the lower floor and another 13 sqm on the loft..

http://robinsonsproperties.com.ph/images/mckinley/mpr-rm-1.jpg

I was looking at this plan in particular. And It does not seem like it is 25 at the lower floor and 13 on the upper floor. Without actual dimensions, just by using proportions...I calculated the width to be somewhere around 3 meters, the door is standard .8m (It covered 3 tiles) So assuming 3 tiles is .8m, the width had 10 tiles, rounded it up to 3M. Calculated the length, which is 18 tiles which is 6 meters. My calculation is of course inaccurate, but is seems closer to 18 sqm rather than 25 sqm.

I guess all I was unclear about is if they count the open space on the second floor as part of the 38 sqm or not. Cause if they do, then it is indeed a double whammy...wasted space on the stair bottom and above and also the open space which you can't use.

I based my answer on the actual units at GA Tower.. I measured my unit and from memory, I came up with 27.68sqm on the lower floor and about 14.95 sqm on the loft.. for a total of 42.63 sqm or something like that.. but I'm not an expert..

http://robinsonsproperties.com.ph/images/mckinley/mpr-rm-1.jpg

I was looking at this plan in particular. And It does not seem like it is 25 at the lower floor and 13 on the upper floor. Without actual dimensions, just by using proportions...I calculated the width to be somewhere around 3 meters, the door is standard .8m (It covered 3 tiles) So assuming 3 tiles is .8m, the width had 10 tiles, rounded it up to 3M. Calculated the length, which is 18 tiles which is 6 meters. My calculation is of course inaccurate, but is seems closer to 18 sqm rather than 25 sqm.

I guess all I was unclear about is if they count the open space on the second floor as part of the 38 sqm or not. Cause if they do, then it is indeed a double whammy...wasted space on the stair bottom and above and also the open space which you can't use.

i like both loft and standard flat...i like loft IF there's no bedroom in the unit so as to allow some privacy or to at least hide the bed...i don't like the idea of a standard flat studio like: you're lying in your bed you can see your coffeemaker in the kitchen...i like standard flat IF there's one or 2 bedrooms included...just my opinion, to each his own.

For all of a loft's disadvantages, you've gotta admit that it looks really cool. A well-designed loft is something that I'd love to show off.

Gibson,

I have a very strong interest in your question because I think it goes to the root of some of the most important considerations in buying a condo.

Beyond lofts, for a moment: I love bilevels more than lofts because they use the space better and are quieter and more energy-efficient. But if you're willing to target higher-end customers, I would strongly consider trilevel or quadlevel condos. Done creatively, they are visually striking and very practical, which is what wealthier clients will pay extra for. You could, for instance, build just 10 or 20 such units, place them on high floors, and charge a premium. (Why settle for the conventional 2 or 4 penthouses, when you could have a dozen of them,
all 3 or 4 storeys tall, with maybe only 50 sqm on each floor?) Just _imagine_ how appealing a 4-storey condo would be if it were based on the 50th floor with a fabulous view to match!

Benefits of lofts:

1. Privacy. This is the single most compelling reason for a loft or bilevel. Let's be honest about this. Do you really want your downstairs neighbors knowing how and when you have sex, particularly when they need their sleep, and you're doing it at 3 am? Conversely, do you really want to hear your upstairs neighbors shouting in them middle of the night?

2. Architectural appeal. High ceilings are beautiful, particularly if there's a plant shelf on one of the walls half way up.

3. Elegance. As Midsunset92 said, it's nice to hide the bed. It looks so tacky to have your messy bed in view as guests come in the front door.

4. Isolation. Keep the kitchen, the living room, the kids rooms, and the master all very separated. Great for noise and energy management. Trilevels and quadlevels are particularly handy in this regard.

Loft problems:

1. Spiral staircases look good, but they're useless for moving furniture. Better, use a single-flight straight staircase, and put a slanted closet under it to somewhat recapture space that would otherwise be wasted. This technique has been used in the US for decades. Or maybe turn it into a half bathroom (i.e. sink and toilet only).

2. Energy efficiency. Give the buyer an option to glass-in the loft, particularly with double-pane glass. This can keep energy bills down while still allowing the people inside the loft to see out the 2-storey living room windows. Or allow an opaque material like drywall instead of glass, for more privacy.

3. Z-lofts are a social disaster. One Rockwell (due 2010) is proposing to include these. For those not familiar with the term, a Z-loft is a loft in which the upper floor is placed on top of the neighboring condo. This is a bad idea because now you share a wall _and_ a floor with one set of neighbors. No privacy, no sale.

4. Lack of upgrades in existing lofts. Think about it: someone who purchases a 1-bedroom loft could have purchased a 1-bedroom flat for less. But they didn't because they like the architectural appeal of a loft, and are willing to pay for it. So then why do all loft builders in Manila seem to think that the bathrooms should only include a shower, or at best, a small tub? The loft customer has more money and is willing to invest it in a better home. Include a big jaccuzzi, and maybe more storage in the bedroom.

5. Existing lofts tend to have 2 bedroom walls directly boardering neighbors. Try to rearrange the floorplan so that there's a bathroom between alternating neighbors (well, a pair of them, if the neighbor is a mirror
image). This will dramatically improve noise isolation and therefore privacy.

6. Insufficient ventilation. Lofts are particularly susceptible to steam rising up from the kitchen and making the upper floor unbreathable. So be sure
to include ventilation fans in the kitchen and all bathrooms.

7. Wrong demand ratio. If you look at existing condos which feature lofts, such as Joya at Rockwell (I've seen the inventory sheet recently), it's very clear that the builder underestimated the popularity of lofts, because they have run out. If you conclude from your survey that 30% of customers want lofts, then make 30% of your units into lofts -- not 10% or 80%. Please
also consider bilevels, trilevels, and quadlevels, which I think make more sense then lofts, particularly beyond 1 bedroom.

Good luck with your current and future projects. I hope this gives you some sellable ideas, and ultimately benefits future residents.

I based my answer on the actual units at GA Tower.. I measured my unit and from memory, I came up with 27.68sqm on the lower floor and about 14.95 sqm on the loft.. for a total of 42.63 sqm or something like that.. but I'm not an expert..

Oh, sorry, I thought you were talking about 38 sqm units...haha cause I just added 25sqm and 13sqm. I was very surprised to hear that the open area was counted as part of the sqm tabulation, that is why I checked the layout of other loft units and got an estimate. Turns out that the open are is indeed counted as part of your sqm area.

You know, on a developer standpoint, lofts are very very profitable pala...

1) You have half the number of hallways, because you only have to have one every other floor
2) Your entire building will be shorter...(i.e. 43 storey loft building will be shorter than 43 storey flat units with correct ceiling heights)
3) The open area in the living is practically construction cost free but yet sells at the same cost per sqm as the area with cement floor.

At one time, we did our own study also for loft type units, however, it was disapproved by Arch Gilbert Yu because it will not fit the market in Fort Bonifacio. What would fit the clients are really bi-level units...but to make it beautiful, the total floor area has to be at least 250 sqm (125 below and 125 above). Even at our B-T-O prices starting at 49,980, that is a whoping 12.5M already on the lowest floor unit.

Also you can add to that, a sleek looking ceiling fan around the center to help cool the place down and also to ventilate the stagnant air above.

I don't agree on the following:

1. open area in lofts are counted in the sqm tabulation - as you can see from the 25 + 13 tabulation, the open area above the living room wasn't counted in the size. 25 being the size of the lower floor and the 13 the size on the 2nd floor.

2. Loft building are shorter than ordinary buildings?? How can this be as you have almost 1.6 to 1.8 floors per floor on a loft building. So a 43 storey loft building will be equal to at least a 68 storey ordinary building in height.


Oh, sorry, I thought you were talking about 38 sqm units...haha cause I just added 25sqm and 13sqm. I was very surprised to hear that the open area was counted as part of the sqm tabulation, that is why I checked the layout of other loft units and got an estimate. Turns out that the open are is indeed counted as part of your sqm area.

You know, on a developer standpoint, lofts are very very profitable pala...

1) You have half the number of hallways, because you only have to have one every other floor
2) Your entire building will be shorter...(i.e. 43 storey loft building will be shorter than 43 storey flat units with correct ceiling heights)
3) The open area in the living is practically construction cost free but yet sells at the same cost per sqm as the area with cement floor.

At one time, we did our own study also for loft type units, however, it was disapproved by Arch Gilbert Yu because it will not fit the market in Fort Bonifacio. What would fit the clients are really bi-level units...but to make it beautiful, the total floor area has to be at least 250 sqm (125 below and 125 above). Even at our B-T-O prices starting at 49,980, that is a whoping 12.5M already on the lowest floor unit.

I don't agree on the following:

1. open area in lofts are counted in the sqm tabulation - as you can see from the 25 + 13 tabulation, the open area above the living room wasn't counted in the size. 25 being the size of the lower floor and the 13 the size on the 2nd floor.

Interesting...yeah you are right in your tabulation of you unit at GA, thanks!

However in the MPR example that I estimated, it seems like the open area was counted as part of the unit. The unit was 38 sqm total, and the lower floor was around 19 sqm...could it be that the standards are different?

I hope someone can enlighten us.

I don't agree on the following:
2. Loft building are shorter than ordinary buildings?? How can this be as you have almost 1.6 to 1.8 floors per floor on a loft building. So a 43 storey loft building will be equal to at least a 68 storey ordinary building in height.

I guess when we say 43 storey loft, what it really means is 21 floors worth of units, and since each unit is counted as 2 floors, they consider it 42 plus the lobby = 43 floors.

Normally, a standard flat unit which we build is 2.9 to 3 Meters per floor...while the lofts are 5.48M (MPR figures from the MPR thread)? therfore:

(42 x 3) + (lobby x 5 Meters) = 129 Meters
(21 x 5.48) + (lobby x 5 Meters) = 118.08 Meters

Wow so ang balconies pala in some developments are also computed/counted as part of the unit's total square footage kanya it's included in the calculation of a unit's homeowner monthly assessment. On GW's projects, do you apply the same HOA calculation method for your units with balconies? Curious lang naman kasi for me OK lang to include balconies in the calculation if it is big enough for actual outdoor living however on the other hand the inclusion of a smallish balcony/ledge in the HOA calculation falls in the same "iffy" category as calculating the loft's open space as part of the total square footage Gibson mentioned some developers do. Just that given a choice I'd rather opt for having a bigger indoor living space and do away with the balcony if it's not going to be big enough naman for realistic outdoor living.

Also you can add to that, a sleek looking ceiling fan around the center to help cool the place down and also to ventilate the stagnant air above.

Yeah, ceiling fans are great for inexpensive cooling and circulation. Better yet, I'd put a powerful exhaust fan in the ceiling. That way, you could cool the loft at night by leaving a downstairs window open. They do this sort of thing in desert homes in the US. It saves a lot on energy bills and is very effective when the outside air is cooler than inside.

ohh ok.. so you were comparing a 21 floor all loft types to a 43 floor regular type floors.. got confused there.. thought you were comparing 43 all loft floors.


Interesting...yeah you are right in your tabulation of you unit at GA, thanks!

However in the MPR example that I estimated, it seems like the open area was counted as part of the unit. The unit was 38 sqm total, and the lower floor was around 19 sqm...could it be that the standards are different?

I hope someone can enlighten us.



I guess when we say 43 storey loft, what it really means is 21 floors worth of units, and since each unit is counted as 2 floors, they consider it 42 plus the lobby = 43 floors.

Normally, a standard flat unit which we build is 2.9 to 3 Meters per floor...while the lofts are 5.48M (MPR figures from the MPR thread)? therfore:

(42 x 3) + (lobby x 5 Meters) = 129 Meters
(21 x 5.48) + (lobby x 5 Meters) = 118.08 Meters

ohh ok.. so you were comparing a 21 floor all loft types to a 43 floor regular type floors.. got confused there.. thought you were comparing 43 all loft floors.

Hehe, its all very confusing even to me...I guess I was using MPR as my basis for my comments as, it is all loft building. They did meniton that they are 43 (or 40+) storeys high.

I am just trying to figure out the standards that are being used, as it is a new concept here in Manila...but as I do my research, I am thinking not all projects use the same standards.

Using GA as an example..

Lobby = 6 meters
2nd floor to 30 floors = 6 meters per floor, so that's 28 floors (excluding 13th) = 28 x 6 = 168 meters
arch on roof = 10 meters?

6 + 168 + 10 = +- 184 meters

Hehe, its all very confusing even to me...I guess I was using MPR as my basis for my comments as, it is all loft building. They did meniton that they are 43 (or 40+) storeys high.

I am just trying to figure out the standards that are being used, as it is a new concept here in Manila...but as I do my research, I am thinking not all projects use the same standards.

Wow so balconies pala are also computed/counted as part of the unit's total square footage kanya it's included in the calculation of a unit's homeowner monthly assessment. On GW's projects, do you apply the same HOA calculation method for your units with balconies? Curious lang naman kasi for me this falls in the same "iffy" category as calculating the loft's open space as part of the total square footage Gibson mentioned some developers do. Just that given a choice I'd rather opt for having a bigger indoor living space and do away with the balcony especially if it is not big enough for outdoor living but that's just me.

Actually, in all our B-T-O projects we have never had balconies. However, the loft open area I think is different from a balcony. In my own simple terms I would define it this way:

1) Balconies - an area that has floor and is outdoor, yet is within unit perimeter
2) Loft Open area - as area that is within the unit perimeter, but does not have a floor

Areas are calculated beased on the perimiter of your unit, so the loft area, although has no floor is within the perimeter of your unit. That is where I am confused, as technically they are not breaking any laws in including it...but since there is nothing to be built, I think it is not fair if it is counted as part of the floor area.

The balcony on the other hand, one of the reasons we never built a condo with balconies, is simple...we believe people on a tight budget would rather use the are inside their unit as living room area, rather than a balcony area. Moreover, the cost of the balcony is more expensive as it is not only a floor slab (like the living room) but it also has to have a drain and waterproofing (since it is outdoor). However, these days...market is getting better and more people like the luxury of a balcony, that is why we added balconies on The Grand Hamptons Tower 2.


In terms of having it as part of the HOA calculations...I would refer that question to our Property Management company's professional opinion or maybe a lawyers definition.

You see in the beginning I thought it should not be...but it is not as simple as that. Because in every building, each of the units differ in size. an example would be One Roxas Triangle, or even The Grand Hamptons Tower 2, where certian floors have units with balconies and certain floors do not have.

The basic formula of HOA is (total building maintenance expense / total floor area = yearly amount per sqm) Then (Yearly amount /12 = mothly per sqm amount). If you do not count the balcony, then the units with and without balconies will be charged the same HOA dues each month...in that case, the ones without a balcony will complain, as it is unfar because their units are smaller.

If balconied unit is 48 sqm (where 45 is unit inside area and 3 is balcony) and the non-balconied unit is only 45 sqm. It may also seem unfair for the 45 sqm unit to pay the same as the 48 sqm unit. If they were the 2 units in the entire building, then the formula is:

total building maint cost / 90sqm (45 + 45)

Where as if you count the balcony

total building maint cost / 93sqm (48 + 45)

It does make a difference...I hope this makes sense

Using GA as an example..

Lobby = 6 meters
2nd floor to 30 floors = 6 meters per floor, so that's 28 floors (excluding 13th) = 28 x 6 = 168 meters
arch on roof = 10 meters?

6 + 168 + 10 = +- 184 meters

Haha, it seems to me that G.A. has better quality standards than MPR...6 meters per floor, while MPR is only 5.48M per floor...very interesting indeed!

Yeah, ceiling fans are great for inexpensive cooling and circulation. Better yet, I'd put a powerful exhaust fan in the ceiling. That way, you could cool the loft at night by leaving a downstairs window open. They do this sort of thing in desert homes in the US. It saves a lot on energy bills and is very effective when the outside air is cooler than inside.

Just put aircon in the lower level and another aircon in the upper level.

In my old house, I had a loft for a room, and the A/C was only in the lower level. Even a strong fan...that would blow all my stuff around in the top floor cannot suck up the air from the lower floor.

yup.. solve na problem.. sa unit namin... 2 aircon lang.. isang 1hp sa baba.. then 1.25hp sa taas.. if I open the door sa bedroom.. kaya nang palamigin yung buong unit..

sa umaga.. what I do is I open the window and slightly open the main door..

Just put aircon in the lower level and another aircon in the upper level.

In my old house, I had a loft for a room, and the A/C was only in the lower level. Even a strong fan...that would blow all my stuff around in the top floor cannot suck up the air from the lower floor.

@condo_dude: Actually before, we had a few clients who made us study lofts for our Kensginton and Hamptons Tower 1.

We studied making bi-level (since it is on the 9th and 10th floor, the unit owner will buy same unit on both floors) unit, and the study went very well. We are able to make bi-level units with the benefits of a loft type unit since the Hamptons had floor to ceiling windows. Furthermore, the slab on the second floor is also concrete, making it more durable and less noisy if there are people on top and at the bottom floor! However, the smallest unit we made was 87 sqm.

To the other clients, there is no effect, except on the 10th floor having one less door and one less unit.

We can actually make lofts out of our units, but it is only feasible if the client comes in early, and 2 consecutive floors are available.

Thanks for the very clear explanation Gibson. It does make sense when you put it that way. Just curious, in GW projects, how does parking ownership affect the calculation of a unit owner's HOA monthly assessment/dues? I assume following the same logic used for the balcony, the assigned parking slots will be included in the calculation of that unit's HOA monthly assessment/dues but just want to make sure kasi baka naman my assumption is wrong. Just that I know of some developments that don't include parking slots in their calculation of the unit HOA dues eventhough the parking slot(s) is actually assigned space (considered common area/space daw so it's upkeep is part of the building maintenance budget daw yun). Thanks again.

Thanks for the very clear explanation Gibson. It does make sense when you put it that way. Just curious, in GW projects, how does parking ownership affect the calculation of a unit owner's HOA monthly assessment/dues? I assume following the same logic, respective assigned parking slots will be included in the calculation of each unit HOA monthly assessment/dues but just want to make sure kasi baka naman my assumption is wrong. Just that I know of some developments that don't include parking slots in their calculation of the unit HOA dues eventhough the parking slot(s) is actually assigned space (considered common area/space daw so it's upkeep is part of the building maintenance budget daw yun). Thanks again.


The HOA details of Penhurst:

Total cost of maintaining the building tower and the parking area is separated (as per the recommendation of FPDSavills)...Therefore, we have HOA for the parking slots.

The reason is that some unit owners may have 4 slots, while others living abroad do not have one, and only rent when they are here. Property Management cannot charge the same HOA for units that do not have parking, while others who have 4 parking slots pay the same.

The good side, is the HOA for the residential units are low at only Php 55.00 per sqm (ayala charges Php 75.00 in Boni Ridge - roughly same ammenities with Penhurst, but penhurst has less residents) and each parking slot is Php 500 per month. - The smallest unit in Penhurst is 93 sqm.

If we fixed the number of parking slots to each unit, then there will be no HOA for the parking, or like what Philtown would do...insert the HOA of the parking in the HOA of the unit. Since everyone has equal ownership, there is no sense to split it up. But each unit owner will be obligate to buy parking space, even if they don't need one.

Thanks again for the explanation/clarification Gibson. The info you are sharing with us is very helpful! I am really glad and thankful that you've joined SSCF because you are indeed an asset to the forum! :)

Thanks again for the explanation Gibson. The info you are sharing with us is very helpful! I am really glad and thankful that you've joined SSCF! :)

3cr...I am addicted to SSCF na!

I've witnessed meetings about HOA...Calculating HOA is very tricky task to do. It is something where you have to literally please everyone...and if you try to please someone a little more, the others will get angry...so it is like balancing on top of a razor sharp edge. Takes a lot of experience to get it right...we re glad that FPDSavills, with its experience really do a good job...because everyone expects 110% excellent service, but as much as possible keep the HOA as low as they can.

Hehehe...told you so! Di bale we're all in the same boat, one big cyber family na tayo dito. :)

I would imagine that a loft-style unit will be less expensive than a multi-level unit, right? The price point will always be a factor. I'm just surprised that they will cram a loft into a 38 sq.m. floor area with 1.8 story. I think it would be better be called a box-style living, the second floor being a mezzanine.

Another question that comes to mind about the heating/cooling system, is this project going to be centralized airconditioning or separate airconditioning units? Ang liit ng 38SQM as shown in the MPR (McKinley Park Residence) thread. When the loft is that small, I'd feel quite claustrophobic even with the high ceilings since one can hardly move around with relative ease in such limited area tapos a portion of that is even eaten up by the stairs leading to the upper floor.

As for cooling, loft type units will probably be best served with some form of split type air-conditioning unit gaya sa Metropolitan's Sky-lofts and One Rockwell's Z-lofts. I think same thing din is used to cool the loft units in Rockwell's Joya and The Residence in Greenbelt. Ewan ko nga lang kung ganun din and gagamitin sa MPR though.

We had a few clients who made us study lofts for our Kensginton and Hamptons Tower 1. We studied making bi-level (since it is on the 9th and 10th floor, the unit owner will buy same unit on both floors) unit, and the study went very well. We are able to make bi-level units with the benefits of a loft type unit since the Hamptons had floor to ceiling windows. Furthermore, the slab on the second floor is also concrete, making it more durable and less noisy if there are people on top and at the bottom floor! However, the smallest unit we made was 87 sqm. To the other clients, there is no effect, except on the 10th floor having one less door and one less unit. We can actually make lofts out of our units, but it is only feasible if the client comes in early, and 2 consecutive floors are available. Gibson,
So the loft option is a possibility in Grand Hamptons 2 for anybody interested in such a unit, provided of course two units one on top of the other is still available? Kasi kung pwedeng i-combine yung (2) one bedroom units and turn it into a loft unit, this may be a great alternative project to those planning on buying one in MPR (McKinley Park Residence) di ba. Well just an idea lang naman... :)


I've witnessed meetings about HOA...Calculating HOA is very tricky task to do. It is something where you have to literally please everyone...and if you try to please someone a little more, the others will get angry...so it is like balancing on top of a razor sharp edge. Takes a lot of experience to get it right...we re glad that FPDSavills, with its experience really do a good job...because everyone expects 110% excellent service, but as much as possible keep the HOA as low as they can. Gibson, I definitely agree with you there bro. You exactly hit it right on the head. Kanya mahirap din when a development has alot of non-essential/basic ammenities kasi mas malakas/madali tumaas din ang HOA assessment dues. :)

Gibson,
So the loft option is a possibility in Grand Hamptons 2 for anybody interested in such a unit, provided of course two units one on top of the other is still available? Kasi kung pwedeng i-combine yung (2) one bedroom units and turn it into a loft unit, this may be a great alternative project to those planning on buying one in MPR (McKinley Park Residence) di ba. Well just an idea lang naman... :)

Yup, if anyone is interested with loft type design, we can make a bi-level unit for them as long as the unit on the upper floor and the lower floor is available. We have done this already in Tower 1, with 1 unit owner, and it can be an alternative from MPR.

Just put aircon in the lower level and another aircon in the upper level.

In my old house, I had a loft for a room, and the A/C was only in the lower level. Even a strong fan...that would blow all my stuff around in the top floor cannot suck up the air from the lower floor.

You're right that a ceiling fan generally does not have enough strength to suck up the air from the bottom floor. I was actually referring to a so-called "whole house fan" which is not a ceiling fan. It is mounted in the ceiling, but it sucks air very powerfully to the outside. By opening a window on the lower floor, you can clear the air in the whole condo in minutes. These are used in newer homes in hot areas of the US because energy prices have gotten out of control here. I suspect that the same problem will occur in Fort Bonifacio 2-4 years from now. (It's basically a whole new Makati being built in a very short period of time.) By then, it will be too late to redesign most of the condos for energy efficieny, so the efficient builders will have a sales advantage.

@condo_dude: Actually before, we had a few clients who made us study lofts for our Kensginton and Hamptons Tower 1.

We studied making bi-level (since it is on the 9th and 10th floor, the unit owner will buy same unit on both floors) unit, and the study went very well. We are able to make bi-level units with the benefits of a loft type unit since the Hamptons had floor to ceiling windows. Furthermore, the slab on the second floor is also concrete, making it more durable and less noisy if there are people on top and at the bottom floor! However, the smallest unit we made was 87 sqm.

To the other clients, there is no effect, except on the 10th floor having one less door and one less unit.

We can actually make lofts out of our units, but it is only feasible if the client comes in early, and 2 consecutive floors are available.

I've heard of this idea before. It makes a lot of sense, actually. As you say, the only problem is that the customer needs to request this very early. And customers also realize that they will have difficulty reselling the unit yeras from now because they have the "weird" unit in an otherwise flat building.

Incidentally, I think most lofts should be located on higher floors, since loft customers are making the statement that they have more to spend on architectural advantages. For some reason, most developments seem to place them on lower floors, e.g. Residences at Greenbelt.

When you combine units, does the customer still need to pay fully 2X the price of one condo?

I've heard of this idea before. It makes a lot of sense, actually. As you say, the only problem is that the customer needs to request this very early. And customers also realize that they will have difficulty reselling the unit yeras from now because they have the "weird" unit in an otherwise flat building. I don't know it may be a selling point actually instead of a liability when it's time to sell because the unit will then be a unique space in the building (one of a kind ika nga). The hardest part of selling such a unit I imagine is finding/matching a buyer who desires as well as willing & able to pay for such novelty (uniques space) being a rather new (not mainstream) concept in Pinas. I imagine the buying market for such a unit (lofts in general) will be smaller and niche-like than the regular condo buying market.

Incidentally, I think most lofts should be located on higher floors, since loft customers are making the statement that they have more to spend on architectural advantages. For some reason, most developments seem to place them on lower floors, e.g. Residences at Greenbelt. I agree, lofts are better located on the upper floor of a highrise for most dramatic effect, impact (view), and statement or at the ground floor for mix (residential and business/office) use purposes especially if it's a converted wherehouse/factory structure than a highrise.

When you combine units, does the customer still need to pay fully 2X the price of one condo? I would think Yes is the answer to your question since the units in question are originally being sold s 2 separate units. I believe the loft option Gibson mentioned is more of an accomodation for those who want one and thus will have to pay for both units at their selling price(s) since the development (GH2) is not really a loft project to begin with. No reason to sell the 2 units as one loft unit at a cheaper price when they can easily sell the 2 units at their regular price(s) di ba? One interesting question here is if the loft conversion HOA monthly dues/assessment will still be computed at the total square footage of the 2 original condo units or at the loft conversion's useable square footage since the living room is usually high ceiling and the upstairs level is smaller because of this. Just like the selling price, my hunch is the HOA computation will be following the same logic/method. Gibson would you be able to kindly confirm if such is indeed the case? Thanks!

@ condo_dude: In reselling a condo unit..in our experience...clients always ask if there are other unit owners with the same unit for sale in the building. If they really like to location, the lobby and the building in general, they tend to stick to their decision...however, all units with the same layout becomes your competiton.

That is why we only do 1 3-BR unit per floor. GH2 only has 17 3-BR of that kind...making it unique, and easy to sell, and have less competition. I imagine if a person wants a loft unit...having the ONLY loft unit in the building could be a plus factor!

Of course, it will all depend on the design that we do and the design that the unit owners ask for. We would of course recommend that the design should still fit within our parameters of practicallity and usability. Depending on the experience of the architects...the unit can be designed to be buyable, or not....even if both costs the same.

I also agree that it would be better on higher floor as well. The design we did with LP towers in Greenhills had regular flat floors on the lower floors, and bi-level units on the upper floors!

condo_dude & 3cr: Yes, it would be the cost of both units of course. It is considered to be a bi-level unit. I do think however that it will be less practical because some of the sqm you "buy" will be allocated to the stairs, and the open area. The HOA would also be equivallent to owning both units.

Of course, what we learned from clients, to each his own...everyone has their own preference, and "use" of space is subjective. Some would consider having the open space from the top floor to the bottom as waste, some would consider it good use of space (in terms of the luxury)...

I guess the most important thing is that we have to give clients a choice. Everyone has their preferences. That is why we have "Model Unit Finish" and "Ready to Receive Finish" options for the unit cosmetic finishes.

It also gets very tricky when designing the layout...we have to design something that everybody will like, and not find fault in. These design features we learn from meeting clients, my dad's experience, and personally living in a condo myself.

Gibson & 3cr: This has been a useful exercise. I think we are converging to a few conclusions:

1. Wow! Look at the survey: it says that roughly HALF of buyers (if we represent average buyers, as we probably do) find lofts superior to flats. That says that new buildings should be 50% lofts. But I would suggest more than that, because the average new development in Manila is 20% lofts at best, so there is a lot of pent-up demand out there. Look at MPR -- doesn't complete until late 2009, and they're already 80% sold!

2. Lofts should be on higher floors than flats in the same building.

3. The sun will burn out before we find a fair way of allocating HOA dues. Whatever rules are used, it is probably best to state them very clearly in the bylaws so that buyers will not have an excuse to complain later.

4. When a buyer purchases 2 condos and connects them into a bilevel, the price should be the same as 2 condos separately. Although, there is probably some small savings from consolidated government fees. And the developer gets to sell 2 units to a buyer who probably never would have bought from him otherwise, so maybe a small discount is actually in the developer's interest.

I don't think I'm the only person on this forum who is very interested in seeing your architectural plans. Maybe your firm will want feedback from us before finalizing their next design.

Gibson & 3cr: This has been a useful exercise. I think we are converging to a few conclusions:

1. Wow! Look at the survey: it says that roughly HALF of buyers (if we represent average buyers, as we probably do) find lofts superior to flats. That says that new buildings should be 50% lofts. But I would suggest more than that, because the average new development in Manila is 20% lofts at best, so there is a lot of pent-up demand out there. Look at MPR -- doesn't complete until late 2009, and they're already 80% sold!

I believe flat units based on the above survey at this moment is leading 9 to 8. You see, when Tower 1 was being marketed, it was the 2-BR units that got sold out first. Since many clients were still looking for 2-BR units, we had to result in combining units.

There were 2 choices:

1) 2 (1-BR) unit side by side, combined will make 90 sqm.
2) 2 (1-BR) unit above each other.

It was very favorable to combining units, because it decreases the number of units per floor, and people like less units per floor. Given both designs as an option, out of 15 clients...14 chose the flat layout, and 1 chose the bi-level layout. Because given the same area, the unit which is side by side was able to net a bigger master's bedroom, a bigger living and dining over the bi-level unit.

I was actually surprised when I was surfing around this forum, that there is quite an interest in loft type units. Which is why I started this thread to see exactly why, and how we can improve our offer of bi-level units in the future.

Maybe if we had a building half bi-level and half regular units, then we can market faster! :) As in every other floor goes bi-level, flat, bi-level, flat...so all bi-level are neighbors, and all flat are neighbors. Then clients can now have a bi-level on a lower and higher floor...while flat layout can have lower and higher floors too! Am I dreaming or what?!

Gibson & 3cr: This has been a useful exercise. I think we are converging to a few conclusions:
3. The sun will burn out before we find a fair way of allocating HOA dues. Whatever rules are used, it is probably best to state them very clearly in the bylaws so that buyers will not have an excuse to complain later.

Actually, in our experience, the HOA is very straight forward. Because there is a direct relationship between the cost of maintaining the building, and its area. Each and every inch of a building is titles and measured.

The problem lies in

1) The inconsistency of different buildings
2) The lack of communication of the reasoning behind HOA rules and regulations

Most of the time, people complain about HOA is because they were not informed of how it was assessed, or why it is assessed that way. In our experience, our management suggests that we hold meetings regularly, to inform the residents about them.

Without communication to unit owners and residents...they tend to compare with other building owners. Since it is inconsistent, then people will start to compalin about it. However, it will always be inconsistent, because the HOA to some extent has something to do with how te building was marketed and sold...like the parking example we mentioned a while ago.

Here is a sample layout of a 1 bdrm (38 SQM) loft unit in MPR courtesy of Bevepi.
For the benefit of those who got units in Mc Kinley Park...

1-Bedroom units ranges from 38 sq mtrs to 40.95 sq mtrs or 408 sq ft to 462 sq ft

Lower level units size is 20 sq mtrs or 225 sq ft and upper level size is 18 sq mtrs or 175 sq ft.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f94/bevepi/mprupper1br.jpg


http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f94/bevepi/mprlower1br.jpg
Thanks Bevepi! :)

Great discussion you all have going here. :okay: It's great to hear the many viewpoints on lofts, as I myself have been a loft-fan without really considering it's impracticality or downsides. I guess I base my admiration of lofts on its design.. Oh, and how it gives you the illusion of a bigger, grander living space. (I guess a flat unit with high ceilings would be just as good).

It's difficult to articulate, but there's just something attractive about loft-living, especially for a young, unattached twenty-something like me. :)

wow, thanks for creating this thread. had so many questions regarding lofts, learned tons of stuff here, so thank u so much guyz :okay:

@char: exactly! loft type design is enticing, fit for the young, unattached twenty-something people. it's definitely something i wanna show off with friends when i own one. :D i dunno, maybe it's just me but i find flat/standard condo boring, plain and oldish compared to loft-type. just my opinion ;)

I think you'll need to qualify the survey as the demographics you have in ssc are quite diverse and hence have quite different buying patterns. Just an opinion.

Lofts make a lot of sense in at least the lowest end of the market and the highest end.

On the lowest end the the structural costs of additional height (to say 2 + 2.2 (hlurb minimums) plus slabs of .2 and .1 for a total of 4.5) versus 2.2 height plus slab of .2 for a total of 2.4 are offset by the loft area which can be titled and sold. The additional area is much cheaper to construct and increases the area to a maximum of 60% (the HLURB definition of a loft - anything over counts it as a another floor and hence changes the rules for developing and constructing (this does not affect the client per se but radically alters the cost due to additional requirement of the building code). So the lower absolute cost absoulutely matters to this price sensitive market. This is the area where Phinma, DMCI et al play. The area under the stairs is always put to use as closet , TV, storage, laundry space hence not wasted at all. It's not ideal for markets which are more aspirational but at present there is probably no way to have a lower CFA. Plus one additional benefit is that the homeowner can actually extend the loft and fully convert this to 2 floors, increasing total area by 20%. (not entirely legal though but in this market watch out for this) In the lower floors the additional height adds a lot of light with buidlings which are very close to one another (6 meter minimums) as in CGS the additional window space is useful with a 2oclock shadow.

For the high end, energy considerations will be secondary to having a nice condo. The market for this is ussually much more urbane, sophisticated with aspirations to having the original type of loft living which is a converted 500 sq.m. 30 foot ceilinged, SOHO factory warehouse. These are not the same people who are buying the present lofts in general.

I don't know of anyone who's been selling the open space, you can not title it and hence even condo dues which are based on the title ussually can not be charged to the open space.

Most of the loft type developments are actually supposed to address cost, the original GA was so cheaply sold due to the cost savings, when people like Fred Go and Rally Martinez noticed that you could actually charge a premium to it then you saw it move from the DMCI fort projects (fort as in BCDA side - along C5 - not FBDC) and Empire East to the Fort.

Best to have a good mix if your project will reach a thousand units and it's the fort value market you're after ( IMO) . I'd ask the people answering here to qualify where they are from as well as the people abroad are more conservative since they look at these as investments and hence prefer flats (literally) but the people who actually are to live in condo's ussually appreciate the sense of space and light, even if there may be a penalty in space design flow.

I believe flat units based on the above survey at this moment is leading 9 to 8. You see, when Tower 1 was being marketed, it was the 2-BR units that got sold out first. Since many clients were still looking for 2-BR units, we had to result in combining units.

There were 2 choices:

1) 2 (1-BR) unit side by side, combined will make 90 sqm.
2) 2 (1-BR) unit above each other.

It was very favorable to combining units, because it decreases the number of units per floor, and people like less units per floor. Given both designs as an option, out of 15 clients...14 chose the flat layout, and 1 chose the bi-level layout. Because given the same area, the unit which is side by side was able to net a bigger master's bedroom, a bigger living and dining over the bi-level unit.

I was actually surprised when I was surfing around this forum, that there is quite an interest in loft type units. Which is why I started this thread to see exactly why, and how we can improve our offer of bi-level units in the future.

Maybe if we had a building half bi-level and half regular units, then we can market faster! :) As in every other floor goes bi-level, flat, bi-level, flat...so all bi-level are neighbors, and all flat are neighbors. Then clients can now have a bi-level on a lower and higher floor...while flat layout can have lower and higher floors too! Am I dreaming or what?!

I agree that half bilevel and half flat is a great ratio for a new building if you want to sell fast. But again, I'd put the bilevels on the upper floors, except for maybe some "garden units" on the very bottom, for those who like having a small yard instead of a balcony. (I don't believe in the live/work loft concept wherein a retail owner lives above his shop at the bottom of a highrise condo, mainly because such small businesses generally can't afford to set up shop in such premium real estate in the first place.)

If you don't believe that lofts belong on higher floors than flats, then I would suggest at least mixing them on the same floor as opposed to alternating floors. The reason is that if you put bilevels next to bilevels, then loud neighbors cannot avoid each other by moving upstairs or downstairs.

I agree that residents' meetings and accurate communication of the reason for certain assessments are the only way that HOA dues can be successfully managed over the longterm.

I think you'll need to qualify the survey as the demographics you have in ssc are quite diverse and hence have quite different buying patterns. Just an opinion.

Lofts make a lot of sense in at least the lowest end of the market and the highest end.

On the lowest end the the structural costs of additional height (to say 2 + 2.2 (hlurb minimums) plus slabs of .2 and .1 for a total of 4.5) versus 2.2 height plus slab of .2 for a total of 2.4 are offset by the loft area which can be titled and sold. The additional area is much cheaper to construct and increases the area to a maximum of 60% (the HLURB definition of a loft - anything over counts it as a another floor and hence changes the rules for developing and constructing (this does not affect the client per se but radically alters the cost due to additional requirement of the building code). So the lower absolute cost absoulutely matters to this price sensitive market. This is the area where Phinma, DMCI et al play. The area under the stairs is always put to use as closet , TV, storage, laundry space hence not wasted at all. It's not ideal for markets which are more aspirational but at present there is probably no way to have a lower CFA. Plus one additional benefit is that the homeowner can actually extend the loft and fully convert this to 2 floors, increasing total area by 20%. (not entirely legal though but in this market watch out for this) In the lower floors the additional height adds a lot of light with buidlings which are very close to one another (6 meter minimums) as in CGS the additional window space is useful with a 2oclock shadow.

For the high end, energy considerations will be secondary to having a nice condo. The market for this is ussually much more urbane, sophisticated with aspirations to having the original type of loft living which is a converted 500 sq.m. 30 foot ceilinged, SOHO factory warehouse. These are not the same people who are buying the present lofts in general.

I don't know of anyone who's been selling the open space, you can not title it and hence even condo dues which are based on the title ussually can not be charged to the open space.

Most of the loft type developments are actually supposed to address cost, the original GA was so cheaply sold due to the cost savings, when people like Fred Go and Rally Martinez noticed that you could actually charge a premium to it then you saw it move from the DMCI fort projects (fort as in BCDA side - along C5 - not FBDC) and Empire East to the Fort.

Best to have a good mix if your project will reach a thousand units and it's the fort value market you're after ( IMO) . I'd ask the people answering here to qualify where they are from as well as the people abroad are more conservative since they look at these as investments and hence prefer flats (literally) but the people who actually are to live in condo's ussually appreciate the sense of space and light, even if there may be a penalty in space design flow.


Wow! Thank you for this extensive and very informative response. I will surely take this into consideration.

Happy Easter to everyone!

Just reposting this interesting FBGC tidbit from Gibson (Thanks btw). :)
Looks like regardless whether a flat or a loft, buyers are buying not just on value for money anymore but more so into the highest quality project(s) they could afford.
I was talking to Jun Bisnar Head of commercial operations of FBDC, and he used this terminology..."Flight to quality", which I really liked.

That is the guidelines that they use in making decisions for BGC. Now that the market is getting stonger...the more people appreciate quality in projects.

We were discussing how there are more and more nuisance players that are coming up, now that the economy is becoming better, there are companies who have no capability or track record in building, but can still market due to the bullish nature of people.

We both agreed that, this time however, clients are becoming more and more careful in purchases as it is becoming more "need" based rather than "speculation" based. People who tend to live in their units look at quality more, rather than people who are buying for speculation. Because of this combination of a bullish market, and the "need" based reason for buying, that there is a good opportunity for "Flight to Quality" based developments, where quality and value for money is becoming the priority.

People demand the best quality for the price they are paying. This does not necessarily mean that people will buy the cheapest, they will buy the one with the best quality and price combination.

The new re-developed FBGC will be operational before the year ends, according to Jun.

^^That does not apply to some sectors though. The very high end is not neccesarily looking for value, product and location are paramount. The very low end don't have too much choices, so unahan minsan.

It seems that LOFT has already overtaken the Flat on the Poll..

In my own opinion, Loft type units has been a new choice for most of the buyers, maybe because they realize how to maximize the space they have had if they will choose the flat type units. Im not saying flats does not mazimizes space.

As for our part, FAP has been in the top choice of many clients, When MPR has been offered to the market, it changes the market. they have 2nd thought of buying the FAP, because of MPR, but somehow it also benefited the market because of the wide array of choice they have in different location offered by RLC. For instance, in the Mandaluyong area. When OGP was offered the result was high, RLC had a fantastic sale, but when GGR was launch clients have had a 2nd choice between a Bi-level vs. OGP flat.

Good thing that we have many projects to offer with a wide choice for buyers who intends to buy LOFT, Bi-Level or Flat in diffrent location and in diffrent projects.

I remember one time that a rumor spreads in the sales force that the 3rd tower of Adriatico Place Residences will be conceptualized in Bi-Level to compete with the other developer on the other side of Adriatico, but somehow the demand in Manila is still Flat type units, and so they did. And the response? ....60% sold for 3AP

East Of Galleria Loft rendering courtesy of Thomasian/Aaron. Thanks! :)
Various Unit Types
East of Galleria addresses the need for affordable, better and newer residential condominiums in the OBD area. With the Tower's prime location, superior product offering and affordability, its residents need not go far. East of Galleria merged proximity value with the unique combination of Bi-Level and Loft-Type units. Opportunities no other residential condo in the area provides, real value only East of Galleria can offer.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/2BR_big.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/2BR_loft1.jpg

I used to have pix of our loft, anyone knows where it is? hehe tumatanda na talaga di matandaan :)

eto.. found it..
Can you give me feedback on what you guys think of this?

It's a 3 x 5 meter floor area with a 3 x 3.7 m loft. total 26sq.m.

If it was in Makati how much do you think it should be worth. Php 1.5m lets say inner makati.

or if it's 3 x 4 meter but add your own loft but lets say it's in Burgos Area will it be a good price at Php 1m.

This will be a finished unit.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v632/bustero/ISOMETRICVIEW.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v632/bustero/INTERIOR-CAM4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v632/bustero/INTERIOR-CAM1.jpg

^^ty!

Hehehe..mas type ko pa yung iyong loft design Bustero! :)

Oh, sorry, I thought you were talking about 38 sqm units...haha cause I just added 25sqm and 13sqm. I was very surprised to hear that the open area was counted as part of the sqm tabulation, that is why I checked the layout of other loft units and got an estimate. Turns out that the open are is indeed counted as part of your sqm area.

You know, on a developer standpoint, lofts are very very profitable pala...

1) You have half the number of hallways, because you only have to have one every other floor
2) Your entire building will be shorter...(i.e. 43 storey loft building will be shorter than 43 storey flat units with correct ceiling heights)
3) The open area in the living is practically construction cost free but yet sells at the same cost per sqm as the area with cement floor.

At one time, we did our own study also for loft type units, however, it was disapproved by Arch Gilbert Yu because it will not fit the market in Fort Bonifacio. What would fit the clients are really bi-level units...but to make it beautiful, the total floor area has to be at least 250 sqm (125 below and 125 above). Even at our B-T-O prices starting at 49,980, that is a whoping 12.5M already on the lowest floor unit.

..and you also don't need to build as much elevators, leaving more space to sell and lesser lifts to maintain.

Hehehe..mas type ko pa yung iyong loft design Bustero! :)
Y tenk u, pero I must say mas maganda model nila sa East of Galeris,blond and imported pa! iyung sa atin pang low cost at lokal hehe.

Y tenk u, pero I must say mas maganda model nila sa East of Galeris,blond and imported pa! iyung sa atin pang low cost at lokal hehe.

yeah, blond and imported! problema nga lang eh yung stairs, mahirap i-access, nasa ibabaw ng ref.

Hehehe...mukhang kinapos nga yung stairs sa rendering. Kailangan yan malaking unang hakbang! Hahaha... :)

Here are diffrent cross sections cuts..LOFTS & Bi-Levels

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f94/bevepi/EOG1brLOFTcrosssection2.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f94/bevepi/EOG1brBLcrosssection2.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f94/bevepi/EOG1brLOFTcrosssection1.jpg

Hehehe...mukhang kinapos nga yung stairs sa rendering. Kailangan yan malaking unang hakbang! Hahaha... :)

:hilarious

Hehehe...mukhang kinapos nga yung stairs sa rendering. Kailangan yan malaking unang hakbang! Hahaha...

Hehe I thought the same thing when I saw those stairs. :lol:

Bellagio 3 loft unit pics/rendering courtesy of Geebeng:
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a376/geebeng/97cfscd.jpg http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a376/geebeng/2d2bscd.jpg http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a376/geebeng/36ccscd.jpg
Some Bellagio III studio loft unit rendering. Thanks Geebeng! :okay:

Metropolitan model loft unit pics courtesy of Thomasian/Aaron:
Metropolitan Tower - Skylofts Model Unit

Living Room:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Skylofts%20Living-room/Clip_9.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Skylofts%20Living-room/Clip_8.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Skylofts%20Living-room/Clip_7.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Skylofts%20Living-room/Clip_6.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Skylofts%20Living-room/Clip_5.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Skylofts%20Living-room/Clip_4.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Skylofts%20Living-room/Clip_3.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Skylofts%20Living-room/Clip_2.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Skylofts%20Living-room/Clip_13.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Skylofts%20Living-room/Clip_12.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Skylofts%20Living-room/Clip_11.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Skylofts%20Living-room/Clip_10.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Skylofts%20Living-room/Clip.jpg

Upper level bedroom / Master's bedroom:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Skylofts%20Living-room/skylofts_bedroom-upper15.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Skylofts%20Living-room/skylofts_bedroom-upper14.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Skylofts%20Living-room/skylofts_bedroom-upper13.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Skylofts%20Living-room/skylofts_bedroom-upper12.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Skylofts%20Living-room/skylofts_bedroom-upper11.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Skylofts%20Living-room/skylofts_bedroom-upper10.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Skylofts%20Living-room/skylofts_bedroom-upper09.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Skylofts%20Living-room/skylofts_bedroom-upper08.jpg

Lower level bedroom:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Skylofts%20Living-room/skylofts_bedroom-lower11.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Skylofts%20Living-room/skylofts_bedroom-lower10.jpg
Thanks Aaron! :okay:

One Rockwell model loft unit pics courtesy of Thomasian/Aaron:
- The Glass House - The One Rockwell Model Unit -

e-rockwell.com

http://www.e-rockwell.com/updates/one_rockwellglass/images/01.jpg

http://www.e-rockwell.com/updates/one_rockwellglass/images/02.jpg

http://www.e-rockwell.com/updates/one_rockwellglass/images/03.jpg

http://www.e-rockwell.com/updates/one_rockwellglass/images/04.jpg

http://www.e-rockwell.com/updates/one_rockwellglass/images/05.jpg

http://www.e-rockwell.com/updates/one_rockwellglass/images/06.jpg

http://www.e-rockwell.com/updates/one_rockwellglass/images/07.jpg

http://www.e-rockwell.com/updates/one_rockwellglass/images/08.jpg

http://www.e-rockwell.com/updates/one_rockwellglass/images/09.jpg

http://www.e-rockwell.com/updates/one_rockwellglass/images/10.jpg Thanks again Aaron!

The use of wide-angle lenses and 3Dimensional distorts the image and gives an illusion of space which makes them not an actual representation of the unit.

What are the areas of those units? I think they look nice.

What are the areas of those units? I think they look nice. Sorry Gibson I have no clue as to what the actual square footage is for the units above as the pics were meant to be used for reference only in our discussions of the loft units versus flat unit. They are definitely large cuts though. Hopefully some forum member(s) would know the answers to this as it was not mentioned by the one's who originally took/posted them. You were refering to the area size right? If not then the answer to your question is The Bellagio 3 is in FBGC, The Metropolitan is in Rockwell, and One Rockwell is of course in Rockwell. :)

Re-posting this pictures here has created confusion. Gibson, I think the answers are in either Metropolitan or One Rockwell threads, whichever pics you are referring to.






What are the areas of those units? I think they look nice.

What are the areas of those units? I think they look nice.Hi Gibson.
I'll save you the time and effort you would otherwise be investing in digging and searching for answers buried in the threads. Here posted below are some info regarding those loft developments/projects we've been discussing and which hopefully helps answer your inquiry/question above as well. I'll fill you in on The Metropolitan's Sky-Loft info when I have secure it. :)


Bellagio III Info
the 58 sqm (40 sqm and 18 sqm loft)studio loft unit (as shown on the renderings) is around 4-5M. the 93 sqm 1br with loft (lower floor) is around 8M. the 2br in the 32nd to 37th floors facing makati skyline is around 9M.
One Rockwell Z-Loft Info I just came from The Glass House of One Rockwell and it is very beautiful. 125 sqm. Z loft, two bedrooms. Wrap around glass! And for PhP13M, I would get one if I win the lottery. Hehehehehehehe!!!
Hope this helps. :)

was the question on the pricing of loft area answered? Do most developers include the open space of the loft or do they just count the built portion of the loft only. If they just count the acutal build-up area of the loft, what option gives the developer a better margin? Flats or lofts?

I think they can't price the open space of the loft. Strictly speaking, there's no floor area to count. In the case of MPR, the unit has 18sq.m. at upper while 20 sq.m. at lower. Obviously, the open area is not counted otherwise, the upperfloor could have been larger since hallway is recovered.

let's take for calculation GA Tower.

It has 30 floors (all bi levels). For computation purposes, let's take 40 sqm (26sqm below and 14 sqm above) as the average area. There are 600 units. So that's :

40 sqm x 600 = 24,000 sqm saleable area
@ Php60,000 per sqm x 24,000 = 1.44B

If say it wasn't bi-level, there would be 45 floors... given the same 26sqm area below. There would be an extra 300 units.

26 sqm x 900 = 23,400 sqm saleable area
@ Php60,000 per sqm x 23,400 = 1.40B

plus you have to make an additional 15 hallways and an additional 300 units of kitchen interior, etc. so there are additional expenses..

So making a loft building is more feasible for the developer. Plus if you could make 2 or 3 towers of the same layout.. that'll be saving millions for the plan alone.

Jon,
And just to add to what Edge and Dvorak has already said, the loft developers/projects I have inquired will not allow a unit owner/buyer to convert the open space on the loft level into an extension of the liveable space on that floor (turning it into a 2 story unit so to speak) if more useable space is needed for future use. It is quite probable that the reason for this restriction is that the open space is not included in the sq. footage calculation and HOA assessment to start with which is why they would not also let unit owners increase the unit's sq. footage by building on their unit's open space/area.


Fellow Forum Members,
I read in the Serendra Thread that Ayala is planning to build loft units in their future condo structures in the Serendra campus. Probably the lofts will be placed in the tower(s) section of the project to take advantage of the view since the towers will be about 20 stories high if I'm not mistaken. It will be great if they do so they can tap into this new market niche. Anybody have connections to find out if lofts will indeed be built in Serendra? :)

I agree with 3cr. Apart from its implication in the structural design, converting the open space into liveable floor space will result in additional floor area which is usually the basis of prorating the condominium dues. Moreso, this will add up to FAR. Especially in fort bonifacio where they are very particular to the max FAR, they can't really allow building extra floor area.

We welcome the loft type of development since this is an innovation to the condo design. Do you have any knowledge of similar development in other countries? I'm refering to the lofts - pinoy style. Loft developments kasi in the US are warehouses that were converted to two-storey units.

9 Tips on how to buy a condo in the Philippines
by: Cynthia "Cynch" Palad-Yap
Owner and General Manager, Real Estate Movers, Inc. (www.realestatemovers.com)
June 3, 2006

Are you a first-time condo buyer in the Philippines? Are you a balikbayan who has not been home for a long time? I have here some 9 tips in buying the right condominium unit in the Philippines.

1) Location

When it comes to buying a condominium or a real estate property, it always boils down to a good location. Is it near major thoroughfares? Is the condo located in a quiet area and yet accessible to the commercial area, schools and hospitals? For the typical balikbayan, the usual question is, how many minutes is the condo from the airport?

For one, the Bonifacio Global City (BGC), also known as Fort Bonifacio or Fort Boni, has a very good location. It is only 30 minutes from the Ninoy Aquino International Airport (NAIA) and is practically close to major locations like Makati City, Pasig City, Mandaluyong City, Quezon City, Manila, Antipolo and Alabang. BGC is right at the middle of everything!

2) Masterplan

In relation to a good location, does the area have a good masterplan? A good masterplan incorporates several factors like zoning of the area (ie, specific areas are designated for commercial, office and residential use), density of the area (ie, strict implementation of the Floor Area Ratios (FARs) for buildings to be constructed), security and traffic management, designation of areas for open spaces, parks and landscaping, reliable utilities (ie, presence of reliable telecommunication facilities, drainage systems, reliable water supply).

How will the surrounding area look like 5-10 years from the time you bought the condo? This will only be answered through a good masterplan.

BGC has a good masterplan --- it's world-class!

3) Track record of the developer/builder/project manager

The track record of the developer/builder/project manager is very important in buying a condo. Did they finish the projects on time? Did they deliver the condo based on what they promised?

4) Turnover date

Turnover date is very important in buying a condo. Why invest in a condo in which the turnover date will take forever? The reason that you, the buyer, is investing in a condo is because you and your family would like to use it right away. The typical balikbayan would like to have a place of their own when they visit the Philippines while other investors would like to lease out their condo for rental income. The point is you are buying a condo because you would like to get the benefits at a shorter waiting time.

In fact, many investors are lured by developers on low monthly payments in return for a longer waiting time (ie, longer turnover date)! So take note of the turnover date before giving your reservation check.

5) Density of the condo building

True, the model unit looks awesome.... the model units looks great in the brochure and in the CD presentation. The walk-through which you are now viewing in your internet browser is world-class! But have you considered the number of units per floor, the total number of storeys of the condo building, the number of passenger elevators for the entire condo building? Simply put, the density of the building will determine the number of tenants in the building which has an implication on foot traffic, waiting time in the elevator and of course, tenant's privacy.

Look at the floor plan closely and consider these factors.

6) Unit type

In general, condominiums will fall under two (2) unit types: the flat unit or bi-level/loft units. Flat units are the typical condo unit wherein all bedrooms, the living room, dining room, toilet and baths are all located in one level. Bi-level/loft units are those condos which has a staircase leading to the loft or second level where the bedrooms and sometimes the T&B are located.

Selecting a flat unit versus a bi-level/loft unit is very subjective because it really depends on the tastes and preferences of the client. As a real estate broker, I'd like to point out several areas for consideration. The Philippines is a tropical country and during summer, it gets really hot especially in a condominium unit. Most condos use glass for aesthetic purposes and loft-type units have higher floor to ceiling heights and therefore, higher exposure to sunshine. Higher exposure to sunshine means warmer temperatures and for the condo dweller to be comfortable, you should have a good airconditioning system. Obviously, the loft-type units require more airconditioning and therefore, higher electricity costs.

However, if you as a buyer would still like to get a loft-type unit similar to the ones we see in Manhattan, NYC, then go for it! But be prepared to invest in a good airconditioning system.

Also, you have to consider if small children and old people will be using the condo. A flat unit will be more appropriate if there are small children and old people who will use the condo.

7) Property Management

Property management is very important in buying a condo. Make sure that the developer is committed in the appreciation of property values of the condo through good property management. Good property management will be reflected through efficient maintenance and security of the common areas (like the lobby, hallways), efficient garbage collection, and proper maintenance of the amenities like the swimming pool, gym, function rooms, etc.

It is also good to know the projected condominium dues (also known as association fees) of the condo property that you're buying . In general, condos with more open spaces and more amenities have higher condominium dues. This is usually reflected on a Peso per square meter basis.

8) Know other costs to be incurred in the purchase of the property

When you buy a condominium unit, there are other costs to be considered namely:

a) The projected condominium dues/association fees to be paid -- The dues are usually paid when the unit has been turned over to the buyer. Item 6 above has discussed the coverage of the condo dues.

b) Value Added Tax (VAT) - Double check if the price that is being quoted to you includes the 12% VAT.

In the case of Build-To-Own (BTO) projects, they are exempted from the 12% VAT.

c) The closing costs -- The closing costs usually covers the registration fees, transfer taxes, documentary stamps tax. Some developers require you to pay this 30 days after reservation while others require payment on the turnover date.

In the case of BTO projects, the unit owner will just pay for the registration fees.

d) Projected Property Taxes for the unit --- The ACTUAL property tax can only be determined when the condo unit is ready for occupancy (RFO). The Assessor's office (a government body) will make an actual assessment of the value of the property which will be the basis for the property taxes. The property tax is usually 1.5% of the assessed value of condo unit.

In the case of pre-selling projects, an estimate of the property tax can be done by getting 50% of the selling price as the assessed value and multiplying this by 1.5%. Therefore a Php 3 M condo will have a projected property tax of Php 22,500 per year (Php 3M x 50% x 1.5% = Php 22,500).

9) Work with a reputable and knowledgeable licensed real estate broker.

The licensed real estate broker is your link to the developer/builder/project manager. He/she can give you a thorough background of different condominium developments emphasizing the condo's strengths and weaknesses. A knowledgeable real estate broker can assist you in coming up with a "shortlist" of condos based on your needs and preferences. He/she can help you with the sales and negotiation process and last but not the least, he/she will provide you good after-sales service.

I hope that these information will be very helpful for you in selecting the right condo in the Philippines.

My pick:

1) Serendra
2) Icon
3) One McKinley
4) Grand Hamptons
5) The Bellagio Towers

One McKinley
Serendra
Bellagio
8th Forbestown
Avant

1) Crescent Park - 8 Units per floor | Multi-Corner | Wide Windows | Less than 200 units
2) Bellagio 2 - Best View | Super Quiet Location
3) Serendra One - Great Amenities | HIGH Steet | Market Market
4) McKinley Park Residences - Best Rental Location
5) The Icon or Avant

serendra
bellagio
8th forbestown
fairways
icon

i think we should wait and see how the admin services and maintenance are before we judge the project..unless its just a cosmetic competition

Are lofts really getting more popular in the Philippines these days? If so why kaya? What's the appeal? More importantly what's
the advantage of a loft set-up versus a flat in a condo residential unit? Just curious and wondering what you guys/gals think...

Do you have something to share as to which one is better, studio unit or a one-bedroom unit? I'm about to acquire a studio unit but my big concern is that studio units lack the 'privacy' when some guests/friends are around. But, for the same floor area, a one-bedroom unit boasts less of 'space' as the wall that separates the room makes it cramped and uncomfortable. For own use or rent-out, what are the pros and cons?

one bedroom, unless you have the time to tidy-up the place often, live in tokyo, or is still a college boy.

One bedroom is really preferable. More privacy.

^^ Yup I agree. One bedroom imho is definitely better if budget permitting. Another thing you might also need to consider is a flat unit or a loft unit. That too has advantages and disadvantages that need to be considered... incidentally there is a thread discussing this (loft versus flat) should you need to check it out...

if it's just a question between a 1BR or a studio, then a 1BR is the easy choice. for most developments, a studio will have less floor space than a 1BR.

however, the thread starter seems to have a caveat; that the floor space between the two remain equal. so handsome_rob, please clarify....

are you thinking of converting a studio into a 1BR?

^^ If all things being equal, it will really depend on the size of the unit then... :)

^^ correct!
just imagine a 35sqm (or smaller) 1BR

^^ hehehehehe @bartman as always in his analytical ways. He thinks like an engineer. :cheers: :) The question does not give you details to ponder.

im getting a 40sq unit - which would essentially be turned over as a studio, but the idea is we modify it to be a 1 or 2 br ourselves. For me parang mas gusto ko rin ganun kasi pwede ko gawin yung exact arrangement of room/s and living area that works for me.

I checked costs and hindi naman ganun kamahal magpalagay ng walls, I think if it is the same floor area pero super laki ng difference ng price ok rin to get the studio and do the modifications yourself para ma dictate mo pa yung layout.

That is, kung pwede, and if you actually enjoy designing the layout yourself ..

im getting a 40sq unit - which would essentially be turned over as a studio, but the idea is we modify it to be a 1 or 2 br ourselves. For me parang mas gusto ko rin ganun kasi pwede ko gawin yung exact arrangement of room/s and living area that works for me.

I checked costs and hindi naman ganun kamahal magpalagay ng walls, I think if it is the same floor area pero super laki ng difference ng price ok rin to get the studio and do the modifications yourself para ma dictate mo pa yung layout.

That is, kung pwede, and if you actually enjoy designing the layout yourself ..

My nephew was planning to that on his condo also, but I think the building owner has a say on that remodeling. For now divider lang ginagamit niya.:)

^^
One practical consideration is the amount of floor area you can afford in deciding between a loft and a flat. Loft requires additional space for the staircase. While this may sound insignificant, the fact that most condos nowadays are below 100sqm means every square meter counts.

e.g. in a typical condo configuration of today- a loft of 80-90sqm will likely give you a 2BR with no utility room provision while the same flat size would typical deliver a maid's quarter and a roomier living/dining area. Same consideration applies to a 1BR. When you have a total floor area of 50-70sqm, you will have to decide whether you are happy allotting ~20% of that to a staircase.

Of course, ultimately it boils down to individual preference/priority.

Lofts are popular here because from the buyer side even their small units look much bigger and brighter and from the developer side, it's cheaper to add space that way.

I would think mas magastos sa cooling/airconditioning ang mga loft units especially when they have floor to ceiling windows and
facing the afternoon sun. Mahal pa naman ang electricity sa Pinas. I also agree that the stairs eat much valuable sq. footage.

Hi.

Two main questions...

First of all, what developments in Metro Manila would you recommend for a person wanting to buy several small studios in one development? Around 20 square metres per unit, less than 1.3 million PHP per unit, doable? Any suggestions?

Another important thing - what discounts can a buyer expect if he or she wants to purchase 3-5 units from one developer and pay for everything in advance? 5%? 10%? 15%?
Any developers who are especially willing to give such discounts?

Thank you in advance.

Depending on the project I know some MW projects will discount up to 20% if you pay cash. Mind you delivery is in 3 to 5 years pa!

If you get in bulk you should get more on top of that maybe up to 5%

Timing is an issue, try to offer this before months end or quarter's end where they want to meet their budget / targets, you'll get better results that way.

These are for pre selling units.

what are the various condo projects that have loft units.