According to this (http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/page/dft_roads_611241.hcsp) government report it would cost less than a million to convert the countries road signs to metric. A pittence when you consider its a one off payment for a country wide project. We are sluggeshly crawling towards metricisation despite the next generation being solely educated in metric mesurements. We currently have this bizare hybrid system including using miles to the gallon despite dealing in litres in at the pump. Is it time to end this madness? I think you can guess my view.

No... I like miles.

No, it's long after time to go metric!

I can't see it ever happening, thank God. I was taught in metric units throughout school and am very comfortable using them, but I still wouldn't support changing road signs into miles, or give my height in metres or weight in kilograms. Only those with overly bureaucratic minds or an excess of Euro-enthusiasm really have much desire to change the status quo. As long as that remains the case no politician is going to have the courage to side with Brussels over their own electorate.

According to this (http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/page/dft_roads_611241.hcsp) government report it would cost less than a million to convert the countries road signs to metric. A pittence when you consider its a one off payment for a country wide project. We are sluggeshly crawling towards metricisation despite the next generation being solely educated in metric mesurements. We currently have this bizare hybrid system including using miles to the gallon despite dealing in litres in at the pump. Is it time to end this madness? I think you can guess my view.

You are one naive son of a bitch if you believe this Government and it's ability to do accurate cost analysis.

Everyone changes the stats to suit their argument. Do you really think it would cost less than a million to replace every road sign with a K. :crazy:

I grew up with K's, but I like miles, because they make us different. Diversity is good and I hate this constant move to try and make the UK the same as everyone else. Lets enjoy being different.

Opps. I meant billion but if the government wanted it done it would have happened. This is not bureaucratic or Euro-enthusiasm. I would of been happy sticking to the imperial system but now we're stuck between the two. God knows how much is spent coping with both and having to covert between them. We're not going to go back so we have to go forward.

Theres no need to change to metric, and the only confusing part of the current system is working out youre miles per gallon on youre car, but everyone i know has a natural feel for how that works as well, spending one billion would make it easier to work out youre fuel consumption on a calculator, but seen as its only an extra line of working, and everyone thinks in miles, and likes miles, why bother?

^^Us and the US that is. The US will never never never switch to all-out metric. No way miles, gallons and ounces will be gotten rid of.

Opps. I meant billion but if the government wanted it done it would have happened. This is not bureaucratic or Euro-enthusiasm. I would of been happy sticking to the imperial system but now we're stuck between the two. God knows how much is spent coping with both and having to covert between them. We're not going to go back so we have to go forward.

In that case I apologise for my language, I was a bit out of order there.

I still believe miles are the best, if it aint broke and all that.

yeah, i am 20.....so i was taught the metric system at school...

however, when it comes to distances i instinctivly think in Miles....they seem a much better scale for long distance measurements than Km's. I can think in Km's no problem, but i just prefer miles.

Also, when it comes to people's weight, i just cannot comprehend Kg's (although i usually find grams and kg's useful for everything else).

.....i dont care if the rest of europe thinks we are old fashioned or if they get confused when they visit us.....we also drive on the left..........its these quirky little things that suit us and nobody else that i like about the UK :):):)

For god's sake let's get rid of this antiquated system that the motorists of tomorrow can scarcely comprehend [Number of feet in a mile without looking it up, anybody?] and switch it to one which all of the guest motorists and pretty much all of our native population can. Same goes for all other Imperial measurements - the metric system is so easy that a conversion would be easy.

This is the problem. Everyone goes on about how great it is to be unique but we're not. America is all Imperial and Europe is metric. We're half of both. Either annoy the hell out of the Europeans with our system or go with them and annoy the yanks. At the moment we're half appeasing, half annoying.

I'd love to see the UK stick to it's system but I think it suffered same problem as alot of other British systems. We came up with a measuring system back when no-one had rulers. Great at the time but when the Europeans caught up they came up with rulers as well (and a system to suit them). Unfortenatly we have to follow their lead and take heart that they will all have to speak English by the end of the century.

i would love it if we went completely metric but it seems that everyone understands miles. but since imperial hasnt been taught in schools since the 60's (and to be honest its rubbbish) i would give it 20 years before we go completely metric.

This has nothing to do with diversity, culture and uniqueness I think. Compatibility is something I definitely support. It'd save money in the long term... not having to do any conversions, not making any costly and even deadly mistakes because of it, no more costs because of different packaging and different amounts to package...

I think all of that is a good thing, and that British / American culture is something much, much better than these stupid units, thank god. Don't forget that road signs have to be replaced after a certain amount of time anyway, so much of the costs would have to be made in the end, no matter if you switch or not.

The only thing I'd have to retrain my mind on is fuel consumption! I know roughly how long, say 80kms would be (50 miles), say an hours driving, mph - km/h no problem, and as for litres, well we buy petrol in litres anyway. However, when my car does say 40mpg, I know how good, well half decent its fuel consumption is, but 10kms per litre, it just sounds like a gas guzzler!!! Sorry, I'm a thick bastard. But I only have people like Jeremy Clarkson to blame for that!!! I'm sure I'd get it in the end.

I do agree with metric conversion however, I mean it says it all in my statement above, we buy petrol in litres, and car mags/adverts/programs, etc all rage on about mpg???

They also bang on about horsepower all the time - why can't they use Watts? :)

We invented most of the Imperial system and I'd be damned if I ever advocated the Napoleonic metric system, even though I am fairly pro-European.

I think we should consider it, particularly in Northern Ireland.

For me it's one of the charming things about UK, driving in MPH and on the left side.
I hope they stick to that.

MPH, Pounds, left-side driving etc I find cool. UK is a bunch of islands with some unique standards. A bit exotic for tourists :)


My father remembers when there was left-side driving in Sweden. At the borders to Norway there were just signs with 'Please change to left side driving' on a normal road :D Of course there was less traffic than today, so probably not too many collisions :)
Sweden switched to the right in the late 60s.

We invented most of the Imperial system and I'd be damned if I ever advocated the Napoleonic metric system, even though I am fairly pro-European.

I don't particularly want to follow the Napoleonic system either - I just want the UK to observe the International System of Units (S.I.)...

Yes.

21st Century, come and get it Britain!

:runaway: runaway! runaway! :)

We invented most of the Imperial system and I'd be damned if I ever advocated the Napoleonic metric system, even though I am fairly pro-European.

Actually, Napoleon "hated" the metric system, and temporarily restored the "traditional" units, until his overthrow...

Go Metric :)

It's just common sense, it's far simpler then our current methods and fits in with the rest of Europe which contrary to popular belief does not mean giving up a part of our country. It's pretty sad if the UK's identity is judged on speed and distance measurements.

Could adopt a system of taking current speed limits and changing the mph to a km/h and doubling it. So speeds of 140km/h on motorways for example.

It would make things alot easier. I mean, its way easier to use KM. And everthing is already measured in metric anyway- when roads are built and painted they use metric measurements. No-one knows what a mile is really. I know 1 mile is short and 50 is long though.

No-one has been taught imperial in schools. It doesnt really make sense to still have miles. Need to get KM in the next 10-20 years and bring the roads up to the standard measurements. Everything else in the UK is metric... except road distances. Doesnt make sense.

Doesnt make sense.

No it doesn't make sense does it. To change the system of measurement which people are happy with and which have been used for thousands of years but are not given a say in which measurements they want to use

Yet another example of the EU fascists forcing things on people without consulting them. One day, not today not tomorrow but one day all these things will total up into a massive backlash against all things EU.

The will of the majority always rights itself eventually.

You Islanders! :D
Think about it: A satellite directed to Mars crashed on the planet because NASA didn't converted KM in Miles... The satellite was built by companies around the word in metric system, but they still use miles... and so million of $ crashen on a red surface.
Million of £ are spent every year by your country for conversion in imperial system, it's cheeper to spend now to complete the transition than going on with a double system. Australia did it and it seems they are happy! (Canada did it too).
The word goes on if you are confotably with your system, OK. But you will have problems in the future in a globalised word with a metric system.

We the "real europeans" (:lol: ) we adopted the € and we had a Kaos for four years converting the currencies, but now i'm fine with the new money and i'm happy when i go to germany without any currency conversion cost.

--
I apologize for my bad english, but I'm too lazy to improove it :-p

Euro's and kilometres are wicked.......we should become real Europeans too and make everyone learn French.

Oh and drive on the right hand side of the road.

You Islanders! :D
Think about it: A satellite directed to Mars crashed on the planet because NASA didn't converted KM in Miles... The satellite was built by companies around the word in metric system, but they still use miles... and so million of $ crashen on a red surface.

All the NASA contracts I have ever worked on are specified in metric units!

All the modern automobiles in the US also use metric units. I need two sets of tools, one metric and one imperial for my home repair tool kit as so many appliances are also specified in metric in the US!

I don't care about whether we use km or miles on the road.

But there's a big difference between changing the distance measures we use and our currency, which also means we have to surrender setting our own interest rates. That would be a disaster imo.

All the NASA contracts I have ever worked on are specified in metric units!
All the modern automobiles in the US also use metric units. I need two sets of tools, one metric and one imperial for my home repair tool kit as so many appliances are also specified in metric in the US!

You're right, it was the opposite, the sense is the same, the probe crashed for a wrog conversion.

I don't care about whether we use km or miles on the road.
But there's a big difference between changing the distance measures we use and our currency, which also means we have to surrender setting our own interest rates. That would be a disaster imo.

You're right too in fact UK (and other countries too) decided to not agree to the euro.
I think this should be the way, if you don't want to cooperate to a specific target you don't, BUT you don't have the right to stop the process for all the other countries! At the end you always change your mind ad go into in a second moment.

What do you think about?

We just like to see everyone else using it successfully first before we adopt it.

We are Europes ultimate window shopper forever seeing how stuff looks.

For the specific situation in italy I think that having a German or a French ruling our own interest rates it's just a great idea. We passed all the '90 devaluating the "Lira" and accumulating a big "deficit", we need more strict rules and more honest politicians, the EU is a good solution for us.

I like the EU, I think it should become a super state :yes:

And we can celebrate Europe day every year with big parties and plenty of drink :)

No it doesn't make sense does it. To change the system of measurement which people are happy with and which have been used for thousands of years but are not given a say in which measurements they want to use

Yet another example of the EU fascists forcing things on people without consulting them. One day, not today not tomorrow but one day all these things will total up into a massive backlash against all things EU.

The will of the majority always rights itself eventually.

Actually, metrication was a project started in the 1960s and was meant to include everything, it originally had nothing to do with the EU.

What does have something to do with the EU is weights and measures on goods sold. This actually saves manufacturers a fortune resulting in only producing one set of products and being able to simplify their manufacturing process. To me this is the more rational and logical thing to do than some bizarre emotional attachment to what units we use to measure things.

Presumably ZIm, you would have been arguing against decimalisation as well. Who wants to work out 17.5% of £6 4s, and 2d? So why on earth do we want to work out the same stuff in 12 inches to a foot? It is completely irrational and illogical.

12 is a fantastic number, much better than 10. You can half it, third it, quarter it, sixth it.

I've read somewhere that German plumbers still use Imperial measures.

17.5% of £6, 4s 2 d is 260.75 or £1 1s 8d and a three farthings.

you but who can be bothered to learn that when its much easier and save time to just use metric.

It is a pretty basic concept, percentages being out of 100, to base your units of tens and hundreds.

No it doesn't make sense does it. To change the system of measurement which people are happy with and which have been used for thousands of years but are not given a say in which measurements they want to use

I'm not happy with the Imperial system of measurement and want the UK to use the International System. Does that count for anything?

I'm perfectly comfortable working in either, it comes pretty much automatic now, after having worked in both for the last 10 years, but my only issue with the entire metric thing is that i want to be able to order my beer in pints, so i know exactly how much i'm drinking, rather than the stubby "not quite pint but more than half" glasses on the continent!

But think of milk, the shops sell it in litres, but its worked out to be in pints and fluid ounzes.

Thats all that would happen, the size of the beer won't change just the units its measured in.

When Britain goes metric, we could no longer rip you off! Check how everything is slightly more expensive in The UK, from cucumbers to iTunes.

I'm for keeping miles on roadsigns. Changing roadsigns to metric will not change distances, driving speeds and the time needed to get from A to B, so what is the practical benefit of changing except to confuse British people for the benefit of visitors. (sign painters might like the change though!)

While on the imperial / metrication subject, I've no problem with metrication as introduced so far with some imperial traditions such as the pint of beer. I would like to see the mile race reintroduced to the Olympics in place of the 1500m, the mile race in under 4 minutes has a great tradition, the 1500m just is not the same.

Ireland has just switched so there is a clear example of a recent country that has switched.

Ireland has fallen apart, people haven't got lost, or drive at the wrong speeds, nor suddenly are they buying beer in 568ml, they still buy their beer in pints glasses.

Again, people over react to what is a sensible measure.

Actually, metrication was a project started in the 1960s and was meant to include everything, it originally had nothing to do with the EU.

What does have something to do with the EU is weights and measures on goods sold. This actually saves manufacturers a fortune resulting in only producing one set of products and being able to simplify their manufacturing process. To me this is the more rational and logical thing to do than some bizarre emotional attachment to what units we use to measure things.

Presumably ZIm, you would have been arguing against decimalisation as well. Who wants to work out 17.5% of £6 4s, and 2d? So why on earth do we want to work out the same stuff in 12 inches to a foot? It is completely irrational and illogical.

You forget I've grown up with metric, my arguement though is that if people want to change they will, I resent EU directives telling me what I can and can't do.

You're right too in fact UK (and other countries too) decided to not agree to the euro.
I think this should be the way, if you don't want to cooperate to a specific target you don't, BUT you don't have the right to stop the process for all the other countries! At the end you always change your mind ad go into in a second moment.

What do you think about?

I'm trying to understand exactly what you're saying but can't :dunno:

Can you put this in better english and explain what your point is? Choosing not to join the euro doesn't stop the process for all countries.

You forget I've grown up with metric, my arguement though is that if people want to change they will, I resent EU directives telling me what I can and can't do.

you have a wrong point of view...
UK is in the EU and partecipate to the decisions, so your governement and the others decided to adopt standards for all the european countries, to simplify the life for the companies and the peoples that moving around the continent.
Remember that this kind of decisions is not taken at majority vote.

EU is YOU (:D nice "calambour").

You accept what Brown decide for you in London? even if you didn't vote for him? So accept what UK and the other european partners decided for US.

I'm trying to understand exactly what you're saying but can't :dunno:

Can you put this in better english and explain what your point is? Choosing not to join the euro doesn't stop the process for all countries.

I'm talking about the VETO, in fact your country and poland are using this instrument to stop every european decision. I think everythink must be decided by a simple majority non with the agree of all countries.

(sorry for my bad english but I studied for 9 years french at school, and english is my third language, and I don't have the time to improove it, but I wish to do in the future)

you have a wrong point of view...
UK is in the EU and partecipate to the decisions, so your governement and the others decided to adopt standards for all the european countries, to simplify the life for the companies and the peoples that moving around the continent.
Remember that this kind of decisions is not taken at majority vote.

EU is YOU (:D nice "calambour").

You accept what Brown decide for you in London? even if you didn't vote for him? So accept what UK and the other european partners decided for US.


and there lies the problem, I don't like to be patronised by anyone. Let the people vote on this issue, why are people so scared to let the British people vote on anything to do with the EU. The longer you denigh people their say the more angry they become and the pressure cooker grows.

It annoys me that the UK is in the EU but we don't act like it. If we're going to be in the EU we need to start acting like we are, rather than objecting to all the proposals the EU makes. Most people would be for going fully metric anyway, seeing as most of the population don't know what imperial measurments even are. They havent been taught for decades.

It annoys me that the UK is in the EU but we don't act like it. If we're going to be in the EU we need to start acting like we are, rather than objecting to all the proposals the EU makes. Most people would be for going fully metric anyway, seeing as most of the population don't know what imperial measurments even are. They havent been taught for decades.

Perhaps people refuse to act like we are in it because so many of us have never had a right to vote on what we have joined.

The EU is not Europe.

We just like to see everyone else using it successfully first before we adopt it.

We are Europes ultimate window shopper forever seeing how stuff looks.

Very good Salif :lol:

and there lies the problem, I don't like to be patronised by anyone. Let the people vote on this issue, why are people so scared to let the British people vote on anything to do with the EU. The longer you denigh people their say the more angry they become and the pressure cooker grows.

They did, back in the 70s. When we joined the EU, because we didn't join at the start they set the rules decades before we joined.

You don't join a club and then bitch about the laws already decided. It is a requirement on all countries that join the EU to accept the decisions that were made before they joined.

The british people voted on this a long time ago. And lets not pretend that you have a principled position, if people were rbaidly pro-european you would not be here arguing for referenda.

Lets not forget the British people voted 2 to1 in favour of everythign EU membership entails.

I'm talking about the VETO, in fact your country and poland are using this instrument to stop every european decision. I think everythink must be decided by a simple majority non with the agree of all countries.

The veto is not for every issue but is being retained in several areas which our government wishes to maintain control over, such as taxation. That is fair enough and probably supported by most of the population. However I wish we would not keep the veto over workers' rights. Ironic that a labour government should maintain a veto over that of all things!

Not all countries in the EU agree with every decision that the other governments collectively agree with. I am pro-EU by the way.

And in reply to your reply to Zim Flyer, not everyone agrees with the decisions Brown makes and he is elected. Individual citizens have very little control over EU decisions. Elections for MEP's are low-profile for one. How can you support agreeing with the premise that we should accept what unelected officials decide.

Also if we are to give up our veto in all areas as you propose, it would only be fair to have a referendum as it would change our relationship with europe and it's control over our country dramatically.

What has that got to do with the euro anyway?

Lets not forget too many other member states including Ireland, Sweden, The Netherlands, Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Estonia, Finland, Latvia and Lithuania all didn't want QMV on taxation.

Getting back to the original thread. Metric is already used on all our motorways and some of the A roads. Those white sticks you see on the side of the road with some thing like 104.5A written on them are position markers. The letter is the carrageway your on (A is going away from London and B is towards). The number is the number Kilometres from the beginning of the road. There are also signs being put up using the same system.

Perhaps people refuse to act like we are in it because so many of us have never had a right to vote on what we have joined.

The EU is not Europe.

The whole thing is, the EU has little to do with this whole metrication. It were Britons who sat on the British select committees in the 19th century to study whether a switch to metric was needed for Britain. It were Britons that decided Britain should go metric, over a hundred years ago. Long before even a hint of the emergence of what would later be known as the European Union, more than 50 years later. It were Britons that decided Britain should go metric in 1965 (under pressure from British businesses because it would be good for British business) and officially started the conversion process, years before Britain voluntarily joined the EU.

Nowadays, Britain is officially a metric country, and has been for decades. The armed forces, most businesses, the government and all engineers are metric. Every road and railroad that was constructed in the last few decades was designed and constructed in metric. Every existing road and railroad is designed, maintained and reconstructed in metric. The rules and regulations regarding distances, width, angle, sings, markings etc. are all in metric. Only at the very end in the process these metric measures are converted into imperial because the people that use the road use a different standard than people that plan, regulate, build and maintain them.

The only thing the EU wants is the British government to stick to its own democratic decision to switch to metric and stop inconvenience its population with the ridiculously slow move. After all, it were Britons that chose 2009 as the end of the transition. That some British politicians are afraid to tell this to the general public and hide behind the tiring 'evil-EU' folkloristic rubbish is their fault. Leave the EU out for once and look at our own lying politicians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_United_Kingdom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_Board
http://www.ukma.org.uk/Transport/index.htm

I am happy to go metric, and to adopt the Euro, eventually, maybe it is right for the U.K. to wait until it is right to join the Euro, but we should go fully metric straight away. The problem as usual is votes, the party in power doesn't want to be the one to make the decision and loose votes, because change isn't easy, all those people who will struggle because ponds/feet/inches/miles is all they know.....!

12 is a fantastic number, much better than 10. You can half it, third it, quarter it, sixth it.

.

Well there maybe a case for switching from base 10 to base 12 but until then makes no sense to use a non-decimal system.

The only thing I'd have to retrain my mind on is fuel consumption! I know roughly how long, say 80kms would be (50 miles), say an hours driving, mph - km/h no problem, and as for litres, well we buy petrol in litres anyway. However, when my car does say 40mpg, I know how good, well half decent its fuel consumption is, but 10kms per litre, it just sounds like a gas guzzler!!! Sorry, I'm a thick bastard. But I only have people like Jeremy Clarkson to blame for that!!! I'm sure I'd get it in the end.


Wouldn't you just compare it to others in a list at the back of what car? or top gear magazine?

Zim, you've posted a (legendary) photo of yourself on this forum before, standing on top of a hill in the Peak District with an OS map around your neck.

I now have this mental picture of you cursing the wretched EU through gritted teeth every time you read an elevation ("sod off Brussels, that peak's 1215 feet to me") or work out a distance ("up yours, Johnny Foreigner, I'm walking three miles and a furlong to get to that pub!")... :D

(despite, as has already been made clear, the fact that OS mappings are metric thanks to a purely British decision)...

I say Metric. IMO there is a lot of nonsense surrounding metric and the euro, and it's mainly out of some mis-placed pride or something. Mauritz and Charlie P you're exactly right - this country has been effectively metric for a long time. The only people who don't use metric are people who don't have much need to do anything useful with numbers, for years people who build, design, produce, manufacture, account etc have been using metric. Things that aren't that important don't really need to change - when driving in the UK foreigners don't need to get their conversion of miles to km correct to 14 significant figures or else their Citroen will explode. But a lot of industrial things can go seriously wrong, but don't because we live in a metric country in a metric planet.

I also think it's silly to resent being forced to convert to something by the EU - that's what we collectively agreed to.

Also the Euro is a completely different kettle of fish. Currencies depend on so many factors such as corporation taxes, housing markets, inflation, consumer spending, bonds..... not just interest rates, that any government's decision to join or not is based on whether or not all these factors make look beneficial or not. The experiment with the Euro is having ONLY interest rates centrally decided - from a traditional fiscal point of view if you want to control the currency the central power should take control of a lot more than just interest rates. Basically it would have little do to with public opinion in the end.

In the US they have different tax rates, California is booming while Michigan is in recession.

In the US they have different tax rates, California is booming while Michigan is in recession.

And the federal reserve will change interest rates that effect the whole. If the area covered by the dollar is strong the fed increase interest rates to curb inflation, any state having a hard time like Michigan, have an even worse time. This is similar to the eurozone - the interest rates are cut to boost underperforming powerhouses like Germany - by the time Germany has recovered the low interest rates have taken Spain to over-heating and over-exposure to leverage risks. Whilst seperate states and countries have the ability to tax individually, there will always be a disparity between the fluctuations in each area covered by the same currency, creating pinch points every now and again.

My point being, while regions within a currency will always have slightly different economic cycles, the differences are magnified if each region has it's own taxation policies etc. While US states have some taxation independence, there are many federal influences on fiscal policy throughout the country, more than the Eurozone which has many less direct controls (in the form of targets etc as opposed to enforcable instructions).

The rates weren't cut just to suit Germany, but also France, Italy and others. It demands fiscal responsibility, and the Spanish government has practicsed an expansionary budget, but this has also contributed to higher rates than Germany needed, inflation is worked out as an average, but this is also why the ECB focusses on inflation rather than purely growth, you can have high inflation and low growth.

But even within EU member states regions have considerable tax powers, it is a very British concept to have single tax rates for the whole country, even the Scottish Parliament can only raise tax by 3%, local councils have their spending set by central government and counci tax set by the government.

Germany was forced to use other methods other than currency manipulation to balance its economy, it lower labour unit costs significantly, rather than low interest rates. We see this in Italy now, the economist Prodi is trying to boost Italian growth by regulatory reform.

The economic problems of some of the eurozone members is not because of the euro but a combination of things including very high oil price, currency manipulation by the Chinese causing the plummeting dollar and soaring euro (look at the €/£ level to see the cost), high social costs and others.

Hardly anyone pays tax in Italy, they count the black economy into their GNP.

Tax avoidence is so widespread that if you come out of a shop, the police can demand to see your receipt to make sure that whatever you have bought has gone through the books.

Hardly anyone pays tax in Italy, they count the black economy into their GNP.

Tax avoidence is so widespread that if you come out of a shop, the police can demand to see your receipt to make sure that whatever you have bought has gone through the books.

Sorry this is a Myte! (the first part at least)

We have a big amount of "black economy" in fact, the south part of the country pay less than they should. But you're rude to say that "Hardly" we pay taxes...
I pay, everybody i know pays taxes, there's someone that try to not do it and that's the reason for asking recipit out of the shops.

The Berlusconi Governement invented the "creative economy" and they tried to put the Black economy into the GNP, but anybody was conveinced. So that's no true.

If you read at the newspapers (not the SUN I mean) you find that Prodi is doing a big effort to keep the black GNP to the light and solve some problem we have with our deficit. And not to joke with numbers, so that's the reason why he's so little popular :D

Britain is of course metric in almost every way apart from our road signage, which makes no sense at all. All children are taught in metric and only metric at school. I remember having to ask for a quarter of sweets from the old man at the market stall having no idea what it meant (and to be honest i still dont). He understands 50g now as well though!

Surely it cant cost too much to introduce metric road signs, just phase them in over 10 years and then on one day in 10 years time rip off all of the mile stickers to reveal the km underneath. It cant cost that much. CAN IT!?

Zim, you've posted a (legendary) photo of yourself on this forum before, standing on top of a hill in the Peak District with an OS map around your neck.

I now have this mental picture of you cursing the wretched EU through gritted teeth every time you read an elevation ("sod off Brussels, that peak's 1215 feet to me") or work out a distance ("up yours, Johnny Foreigner, I'm walking three miles and a furlong to get to that pub!")... :D

Damn right Charlie, I fight my way up them mountains inch by inch foot by foot.:)

On a slightly different point of view if anyone wants to make some quick money, print some toilet paper with the EU flag on it. I know plenty of people who will want to wipe their arse on it. There is an increasing market out there for it, since as we aren't allowed to vote on the EU and it's fascist directives we have to resort to such things.

We did vote on it Zim, how many times, and everytime we elect a government who all support our membership of the EU or the millions of people who vote in EP elections as well.

But you have just proved my point, you wouldn't be so pro a referenda if you thought people would vote yes. Let me remind you that the original referenda was 2 to1 against, but became a 2 to 1 majority in favour.

We did vote on it Zim, how many times, and everytime we elect a government who all support our membership of the EU or the millions of people who vote in EP elections as well.

But you have just proved my point, you wouldn't be so pro a referenda if you thought people would vote yes. Let me remind you that the original referenda was 2 to1 against, but became a 2 to 1 majority in favour.

People haven't voted on that we have voted on a representative and often people don't vote on a one issue policy unless it is a local issue like a potential hospital closure.

I'm in favour of a referendum because I would like to have a say on such an important issue and not be constantly told what is in my best interest. Even if I thought the debate would be lost I would still want it, surely if such changes are in our best interest you would say the same.

I remember having to ask for a quarter of sweets from the old man at the market stall having no idea what it meant (and to be honest i still dont).

Surely it cant cost too much to introduce metric road signs, just phase them in over 10 years and then on one day in 10 years time rip off all of the mile stickers to reveal the km underneath. It cant cost that much. CAN IT!?

I've never even heard of that phrase- a quarter of sweets. A quarter of what :S A quarter of an ounce... pound? I dont even know how much either of those weigh! Im guessing you can get a half of sweets, a 3/4 of sweets and a whole? of sweets... I dont really buy sweets much; when I do its in grams. Partly because its labelled in grams.

And yes. If its phased in, it would be alright I'd think in terms of cost and effort.

I dont really understand why we use miles when no-one actually knows how long a mile is...

People haven't voted on that we have voted on a representative and often people don't vote on a one issue policy unless it is a local issue like a potential hospital closure.

I'm in favour of a referendum because I would like to have a say on such an important issue and not be constantly told what is in my best interest. Even if I thought the debate would be lost I would still want it, surely if such changes are in our best interest you would say the same.

You are quiet though on other treaties that have a bigger impact on our laws that we get literally NO say in, like the WTO which can strike down any UK law. Or NATO membership in which a US General takes command over what British troops do in time of war.

Your issue is one sided and has little to do with sovereignty otherwise you would advocate referenda on all these things.

Sorry this is a Myte! (the first part at least)

We have a big amount of "black economy" in fact, the south part of the country pay less than they should. But you're rude to say that "Hardly" we pay taxes...
I pay, everybody i know pays taxes, there's someone that try to not do it and that's the reason for asking recipit out of the shops.

The Berlusconi Governement invented the "creative economy" and they tried to put the Black economy into the GNP, but anybody was conveinced. So that's no true.

If you read at the newspapers (not the SUN I mean) you find that Prodi is doing a big effort to keep the black GNP to the light and solve some problem we have with our deficit. And not to joke with numbers, so that's the reason why he's so little popular :D

So I'm correct then.

PS your English is 1,000 times better than my Italian

The rates weren't cut just to suit Germany, but also France, Italy and others. It demands fiscal responsibility, and the Spanish government has practicsed an expansionary budget, but this has also contributed to higher rates than Germany needed, inflation is worked out as an average, but this is also why the ECB focusses on inflation rather than purely growth, you can have high inflation and low growth.

But even within EU member states regions have considerable tax powers, it is a very British concept to have single tax rates for the whole country, even the Scottish Parliament can only raise tax by 3%, local councils have their spending set by central government and counci tax set by the government.

Germany was forced to use other methods other than currency manipulation to balance its economy, it lower labour unit costs significantly, rather than low interest rates. We see this in Italy now, the economist Prodi is trying to boost Italian growth by regulatory reform.

The economic problems of some of the eurozone members is not because of the euro but a combination of things including very high oil price, currency manipulation by the Chinese causing the plummeting dollar and soaring euro (look at the €/£ level to see the cost), high social costs and others.

I agree with your whole post - it is obviously difficult to allude to just how many factors there involved in currencies and fiscal policy in a sinle post. It is because of this that I feel Governments would take the decision to join the Euro, and if they found favourable, do everything they could to get it done - including manipulating or ignoring public opinion if necessary. Not that I personally condone that of course.

I've never even heard of that phrase- a quarter of sweets. A quarter of what :S A quarter of an ounce... pound? I dont even know how much either of those weigh! Im guessing you can get a half of sweets, a 3/4 of sweets and a whole? of sweets... I dont really buy sweets much; when I do its in grams. Partly because its labelled in grams.I'm 21 and I remember prices in quarter (pounds) in Woolworths for Pick and Mix - it must have been phased out about 15 years ago. It's now the nearly the same 100g (1/4lb is 117g).I dont really understand why we use miles when no-one actually knows how long a mile is...1609m, or 1760 yards :P. We use miles for distance as we didn't change at the last real opportunity to - when Worboys signs were introduced in the 60s (though there are lots of pre-Worboys signs still left). I can judge how long a mile is as well as I can a kilometre, if not better (though both incredibly badly).

It wouldn't be hard to do as the Irish did and give distances in both km and miles, phasing out miles eventually - it took them about 15 years. The speed limit change cost lots of money, as all the speed limit signs needed changing. Ireland changed it's speed limit policy to make the number of signs far less, and had less in the first place, by mile of road (and obviously a lot fewer miles of road). Also signs would need moving - stuff like 1 mile exit signs on motorways, and the 300yds, 200yds, 100yds countdown markers. Then again that wouldn't make much difference.

[..]Also signs would need moving - stuff like 1 mile exit signs on motorways, and the 300yds, 200yds, 100yds countdown markers. Then again that wouldn't make much difference.

If I'm not mistaken that would not be necessary. Road design and regulation has been metric for a long time now and the 200yd sign is actually not 200yd but 200 metres from the exit. They would just need to change the 'yd' into 'm'.

Edit: seems like it http://www.metric.org.uk/Transport/index.htm

Does anyone think we will NEVER go metric?

For me it seems inevitable and it has been steadily happening throughout my life. I remember farenheit only weather forecasts for example. So why not hurry it along a bit eh?

btw on the railways positions are marked in miles and chains from a location. e.g. 10 miles 22 chain out of Liverpool Street. A chain is 22 yards, 80 chains in a mile and you will often see these small number markers by the track. As a rough descriptor for the railway this is actually a really usefull chunk of distance to describe where say a signal is as whether the signal is on the left or right of a curve in the track will alter it's distance from the original location. This will probably eventually get replaced by GPS, but that is tricky, think long tunnels for example, but there is no metric equivalent and telling a gang to go to 10 miles 22 is by far the easiest way. Anyhow I'm digressing!

Does anyone think we will NEVER go metric?

For me it seems inevitable and it has been steadily happening throughout my life. I remember farenheit only weather forecasts for example. So why not hurry it along a bit eh?

Change? Don't be crazy people can't cope with change regardless of the benefits. They prefer to see some evil conspiracy.

Or NATO membership in which a US General takes command over what British troops do in time of war.

This is somewhat incorrect in the sense that in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Council there is no majority voting which effectively means no NATO war with British troops without the UK agreeing.

like the WTO which can strike down any UK law.

I strongly doubt this. WTO mainly has a say in subsidies, tariffs and so on and even there large countries just ignore it's rulings if neccessary.

Oh and about the metric system, the UK should just continue like it's doing now, as someone once said "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" or "never change a winning team". :)

This is somewhat incorrect in the sense that in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Council there is no majority voting which effectively means no NATO war with British troops without the UK agreeing.



I strongly doubt this. WTO mainly has a say in subsidies, tariffs and so on and even there large countries just ignore it's rulings if neccessary.

Oh and about the metric system, the UK should just continue like it's doing now, as someone once said "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" or "never change a winning team". :)

Not quite true during an article 5 situation it is a US general that takes overall command of all NATO troops and decides how they are used. This is why France withdrew from the unified command part of the NATO treaty.

And yes the WTO can strike down any law it deems to be against the principles upon which it is founded, penalties allow punitive trade sanctions on the offending country, this decision is taken by a committee of unelected bureaucrats.

Changing to metric in terms of cost wouldn't be as cheap as some people think. Bear in mind the number of cars that have speedometers at mph and all the signs that would need changing (paying for the man hours to do it) changing the speed cameras etc. I know how long a mile is better than a km. Like I said before I don't have a big objection to changing it but I don't see it as a pressing problem. There are more important areas to spend money on right now.

Regarding the EU constitution, the new treaty is almost word for word the same. So if we were promised a referendum for the first one, why not for this treaty? It would probably be a 'yes' vote anyway but the government shouldn't break promises. It sets a bad precedent.

I think we will change eventually. Slowly but surely; especially with immigrants affecting the systems we use and way of life.

Ive neard heard of a "chain"

Cars- not a valid argument. All have speeds in km/h too.

If I'm not mistaken that would not be necessary. Road design and regulation has been metric for a long time now and the 200yd sign is actually not 200yd but 200 metres from the exit. They would just need to change the 'yd' into 'm'.they wouldn't have to change anything at all, as the distances are just shown by stripes on the signs, but then again, I said that they wouldn't because the difference is too small to be worth it and they seem to have been putting signs at the wrong distances for years anyway! Then again, you're just regurgitating stuff off a propaganda website and seem to not know what signs look like, so I'd take the "we put signs that mean 100yds 100m away instead" with a pinch of salt. I have no doubts that they would measure out roughly 91m, rather than 100yds though.

It's funny, as a council had to change a sign that was 100m away from something, and they signed it as 100m. The changed sign had 110yds, not 100yds as you would guess would happen if they just measure in metres and put up that number in yards.

However, ignoring those signs now, there's still millions of speed limit signs that will not only need changing, at £100 a pop, but the metric ones would have to be revealed and the old signs covered within a short timeframe (a few days maximum).

Distance ones are thankfully easier, though we're talking about 15-20 years post-decision before we'd be fully 'bilingual' distance-wise (and about 60 years post speed limit change before we get rid of them for fully metric signs (saving the odd few heritage signs, which exist now), as they'd be no rush to get rid of 'bilingual' distance signs), and that is with some extra costs of replacing signs early, say half of them. of course you can have it earlier, at even more cost than just replacing them roughly naturally.

Really don't hold your breathe on having metric signs. It'll happen eventually, but it's a very long journey before it comes.

As a temporary measure they can just use those stickers over the existing signs.as you know, and as we have seen in this thread, there are at least a hardcore of people who are totally against metric. How long do you think these stickers will last? I'd give half of them about two weeks at best!

Unless, of course, for speed limit signs, you made all new ones metric, with a sticker over the top with the speed in mph. would make it easier, as you could recycle the old signs, as opposed to keeping them up, and would make the transfer slightly easier as it's just peeling a sticker off, not pulling off a sign cover and taking down the old sign.

As a temporary measure they can just use those stickers over the existing signs.

They are also swithcing to plastic signs anyway cos thieves are stealing them for scrap.

Not quite true during an article 5 situation it is a US general that takes overall command of all NATO troops and decides how they are used. This is why France withdrew from the unified command part of the NATO treaty.

No not really. Article 5 leaves the amount of support open to every member state, iirc it says "as deemed necessary" (by every state individually.). It nowhere says, if Article 5 comes into force you are all bound to the USA. Article 5 means that the UK has to help an attacked NATO country, it doesn't specifiy how, a donation to a US led war of 10$ could also be classified as "help". It is correct that SACEUR is always a US general (the NATO secretary general and deputy SACEUR are always European), but by no means does that mean he can just command British troops without British consent. He can do that if the UK agrees that British troops should be part of a NATO led operation, however as the British General Jackson (he refused an order from a "higher" US general) showed in the Kosovo crisis SACEUR can always be overruled by politicians.

And yes the WTO can strike down any law it deems to be against the principles upon which it is founded, penalties allow punitive trade sanctions on the offending country, this decision is taken by a committee of unelected bureaucrats.

Against the principles it was founded which are mainly trade principles, something completley different to any law, but so or so the WTO gets ignored quite often.

btw on the railways positions are marked in miles and chains from a location.

Except for the Channel Tunnel Rail Link and (I think) Docklands Light Railway...

We are sluggeshly crawling towards metricisation despite the next generation being solely educated in metric mesurements. We currently have this bizare hybrid system including using miles to the gallon despite dealing in litres in at the pump. Is it time to end this madness? I think you can guess my view.
Canada and Ireland allready changed to metric system and it works.
Several states use both systems in USA.

UK could switch to metric system but it must be done smoothly.

Being an engineer I can tell the imperial system is a little complicated to handle, but it gets really dirty on lage scale projects when part of the engineers work metric system as well.
Nowadays however, this getting a little better as CAD does all the unit conversions for you.

Does anyone know if the EU Council Directive 80/181 is still holding tight? I wouldn't want them to give up like they did in case of the UK.

If the directive 80/181 will be enacted on-time and if the FPLA is amended to permit metric-only labelling, then maybe I will finally see millilitres and grammes by themselves in the USA? How stupid is it to advertise 500 mL bottles of water only as 16.9 fl. oz.? Canadians changed quart containers to a litre ones, and gallon containers to four-litre ones, and I don't think most of Canadians even noticed the difference in terms of "feeling the volume".


Thank God, there is Canada near by, so I can order all needed metric appliances such as thermostats and thermometers that would work in 110V :)

How about the idea of 'human scale'; human activities are left untouched, but industry and science have to convert to metric (which they probably have done by now anyway). So cheese can be sold in any measurement as can beer; bridle path distance signposts are left as they are etc. So human perceptions of everyday activities are not enforced by a law but can be flexible. Industry and science where the scales of cooperation mean important benefits are to be had should be enforced by law, but lets face it anally converting every single measurement is a tad well anal with benefits smelling of mere aloof ideals. Lets face it all measurement units are arbitrary.

It was time to switch to metric 100 years ago. everything including science is in metric. You don't say ft/s or you don't say mol/gallon or ...

Surely it cant cost too much to introduce metric road signs, just phase them in over 10 years and then on one day in 10 years time rip off all of the mile stickers to reveal the km underneath. It cant cost that much. CAN IT!?

I completely support that. We'd only be able to start with the distance signs though, as km/h speed limits haven't been decided on yet and a lot might have to be reconsidered - if a stretch of road is currently signed with, say, a 60 mph limit, would a slight increase to 100 km/h be appropiate, or would the limit have to be dropped to 90 km/h because of special circumstances?

Yes say I.

But it ruins the phrase the extra mile.

Vive le Métrique
http://www.mtqsignalisation.mtq.gouv.qc.ca/mid/mid-I-400.jpg

Kilometres are too small! And Metres are too big!

Kilometres are too small! And Metres are too big!

Too small for what? Too big for what? :nuts:

(This is an old thread, but...)

It was time to switch to metric 100 years ago. everything including science is in metric. You don't say ft/s or you don't say mol/gallon or ...

Agree. Metric, please. It's the system I was taught from when I started primary school in 1987!

I have a very clear idea of my height in cm (183), and my weight in kg (77). Best of all, metric subdivisions are simple and not nearly as arbitrary as imperial subdivisions appear: I have to think pretty hard to remember that there are 14 pounds in a stone, and 12 inches in a foot. I have to look up 3 feet in a yard and 1,760 yards in a mile. I was never taught any of these things at school.

Do imperial lovers also yearn for their pounds that have 20 shillings, each shilling containing 12 pence?

I am happy driving 5km down the road to pick up half a litre of milk. These are all easy units that we've been teaching our kids for years now. Let's use them! The one arcane thing that I do like is a pint when I'm at the pub but, to be honest, I wouldn't care much at all if pubs chopped off 63ml and standardised on half litres.

I am happy driving 5km down the road to pick up half a litre of milk.

Really? That seems a long way to go for so little. Do you live somewhere very remote?

Let's use them! The one arcane thing that I do like is a pint when I'm at the pub but, to be honest, I wouldn't care much at all if pubs chopped off 63ml and standardised on half litres.

I'm quite happy to keep "pints" in a metric UK, just as the Aussies do. Although they (mostly) use "pint" as the term for 570 ml of beer, not 568 ml.

(This is an old thread, but...)



Agree. Metric, please. It's the system I was taught from when I started primary school in 1987!

I have a very clear idea of my height in cm (183), and my weight in kg (77). Best of all, metric subdivisions are simple and not nearly as arbitrary as imperial subdivisions appear: I have to think pretty hard to remember that there are 14 pounds in a stone, and 12 inches in a foot. I have to look up 3 feet in a yard and 1,760 yards in a mile. I was never taught any of these things at school.

Do imperial lovers also yearn for their pounds that have 20 shillings, each shilling containing 12 pence?

I am happy driving 5km down the road to pick up half a litre of milk. These are all easy units that we've been teaching our kids for years now. Let's use them! The one arcane thing that I do like is a pint when I'm at the pub but, to be honest, I wouldn't care much at all if pubs chopped off 63ml and standardised on half litres.

Or alternatively, we could go back to worrying about something that actually mattered. I don't doubt that SI units are more logical. I just don't hear people complaining about the hybrid mish-mash we use in the UK down the pub (where, incidentally, you should be getting 568ml in your pint glass...someone is pouring you a short measure!)

Full-metrication (ie abandoning the mile, the pint etc.) is so far down the national 'to do' list at the moment that it's hardly worth a detailed discussion. (And for what it's worth, we wouldn't be discussing it here either unless Nima, who lives thousands of miles/kilometers away in Iran, hadn't resurrected a thread that we Brits lost interest in 4 years ago.)

You Islanders! :D
Think about it: A satellite directed to Mars crashed on the planet because NASA didn't converted KM in Miles... The satellite was built by companies around the word in metric system, but they still use miles... and so million of $ crashen on a red surface.
Million of £ are spent every year by your country for conversion in imperial system, it's cheeper to spend now to complete the transition than going on with a double system. Australia did it and it seems they are happy! (Canada did it too).
The word goes on if you are confotably with your system, OK. But you will have problems in the future in a globalised word with a metric system.

We the "real europeans" (:lol: ) we adopted the € and we had a Kaos for four years converting the currencies, but now i'm fine with the new money and i'm happy when i go to germany without any currency conversion cost.

--
I apologize for my bad english, but I'm too lazy to improove it :-p

I'll apologise in advance for my slightly mischievous quoting of a post made in 2007 (and for taking this slightly off topic)...but I wonder whether our Italian friend is still now feeling 'fine with the new money'?

Moral: standardisation doesn't always win.

Really? That seems a long way to go for so little. Do you live somewhere very remote?
A man needs his milk.

Or alternatively, we could go back to worrying about something that actually mattered. I don't doubt that SI units are more logical. I just don't hear people complaining about the hybrid mish-mash we use in the UK down the pub (where, incidentally, you should be getting 568ml in your pint glass...someone is pouring you a short measure!)

Full-metrication (ie abandoning the mile, the pint etc.) is so far down the national 'to do' list at the moment that it's hardly worth a detailed discussion. (And for what it's worth, we wouldn't be discussing it here either unless Nima, who lives thousands of miles/kilometers away in Iran, hadn't resurrected a thread that we Brits lost interest in 4 years ago.)
Well, I get somewhat closer to that pint in ml than I would have done in fluid ounces!

I agree that enforcing metric units is not currently priority. (I for one am not worrying about anything, but it's an interesting topic.) We've been teaching kids exclusively the metric system for at least 24 years now. There comes a point when the few remaining vestiges of imperial measurements (miles (and to a lesser extent, those associated gallons), feet & inches, stones & pounds) are nothing more than relics. Is anything other than human weight measured in stones these days? Are feet and inches used to measure anything other than height?

I'm trying hard to think of anything other than miles that I can genuinely say is an imperial measure I hear used regularly.

Thi pint can be simplified to 600 ml or even 500 ml.
In Iran we've never used pint and we're still alive

There is no logical reason why pints have to go... 568ml.

Too small for what? Too big for what? :nuts:

We'll all end up driving at 100.

^^
So what? It's not something negative and it makes sense more than miles. Mile is too little if km is too big. Like driving 70 on an empty freeway?? come on! :)