cont'd from #3

First post, woo! I have never visited Indianapolis for any period of time, just driven through, but it looks nice. Are there any local event or informational websites for the city to get more info?

a link back to the old thread, in case anyone can't find it..

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=311241&page=1&pp=20

GT,

no i dont have more info about it. i just remember reading about it in the star about a year and a half ago, and i havent heard anything since then, so im guessing that it must be dead. maybe the city couldnt get the matching federal money or something. but anyway eli lilly and wellpoint had discussed paying some of the cost of renovating and updating the belt line, which runs in a big u shape around the east south and west sides of downtown about a mile away, so that all of the through downtown railroad traffic could be routed onto the belt line. this way the city could get rid of those disgusting 25 foot high dirt mounds supporting the track on the southside, thereby opening up the southside of downtown for development.

Lilly was "concerned" about hazardous material being transported through downtown. While downtown has a large daytime population, re-routing freight traffic to the belt-way would affect both a large daytime and nighttime population. The real reason Lilly wants the raised train beds removed is that they want to connect their main campus with their Meridian Street buildings.

Here's the problem with removing the train right-of-way: once the right of way is gone and built over, how will the city ever get grade-separated light rail into the downtown? The city doesn't have enough money to place the train tracks below grade, ala the big dig. I'm not sure that running light rail at grade makes sense in downtown, especially on South Street.

My opinion is that this would be the biggest development blunder in Indianapolis history. Notice I didn't say planning blunder, because the fact is this decision won't be made by planners.

The State has already made it clear that if high speed rail were to become a reality, Union Station WILL be the transit hub. Some right of way will need to be preserved. My guess is it will be above grade.

Lilly's lack of adequate long-range site planning at it's main campus is quite apparent. It's lack of any vision when it comes to light rail is scary. Here's an idea - place a light rail station along the existing train line at McCarty St.

The raised train bed has always been a psychological deterrent in connecting the south part of downtown with the core. Perhaps an open-lattice, above grade, steel "el-like" structure might be a solution. Although I would rather see a "subway".

Ok, am I the only one that really dislikes the way Mayor Peterson and the Planning Department make decisions? I voted for Peterson, but I'm really starting to regret it. It seems to me that so many decisions relating to planning and development in this city are short-sited and occur behind closed doors.

I constantly feel that any ideas or suggestions that people make regarding planning or development go unheard because the decision has already been made or never get opened up to the public.

littleolme, I totally agree with you!!! Somebody please explain to me the logic of putting the transit center south of Union Station. A couple years back I worked as an intern for the Metropolitan Planning Organization and worked a bit on the Directions transit study. I was and continue to be infuriated by the fact that this study does not consider Union Station as a possible transit hub. There are so many reasons it should at least be considered. I won't list them now because I'm tired and believe that no one is listing anyway.

I'm sorry; I know I sound like a little baby. I just feel that there may be a bit of arrogance at the mayor’s office and/or the planning department. They seem to think that they know best and don't need input from anyone else. The sad thing is, their vision for Indianapolis is small and is holding it back from its full potential.

Am I being too pessimistic? Do you guys know of any productive ways to get involved and voice our opinions?

Lilly was "concerned" about hazardous material being transported through downtown. While downtown has a large daytime population, re-routing freight traffic to the belt-way would affect both a large daytime and nighttime population. The real reason Lilly wants the raised train beds removed is that they want to connect their main campus with their Meridian Street buildings.

Here's the problem with removing the train right-of-way: once the right of way is gone and built over, how will the city ever get grade-separated light rail into the downtown? The city doesn't have enough money to place the train tracks below grade, ala the big dig. I'm not sure that running light rail at grade makes sense in downtown, especially on South Street.

My opinion is that this would be the biggest development blunder in Indianapolis history. Notice I didn't say planning blunder, because the fact is this decision won't be made by planners.

The State has already made it clear that if high speed rail were to become a reality, Union Station WILL be the transit hub. Some right of way will need to be preserved. My guess is it will be above grade.

Lilly's lack of adequate long-range site planning at it's main campus is quite apparent. It's lack of any vision when it comes to light rail is scary. Here's an idea - place a light rail station along the existing train line at McCarty St.

The raised train bed has always been a psychological deterrent in connecting the south part of downtown with the core. Perhaps an open-lattice, above grade, steel "el-like" structure might be a solution. Although I would rather see a "subway".

I agree with you 100%. Allowing that right of way to be vacated would be a huge mistake!

No location, except Union Station, presents the city with existing above grade infrastructure, existing rail right-of-way, the ability to integrate high-speed rail, regional-rail, local/circulator rail or bus and IndyGo.

I propose using existing rail right-of-way for regional rail service that would serve the entire metropolitan area. There could be 3 downtown stations. Union Station would be the main transfer or hub station; a second could be on the east side of downtown near Washington and Park Street. The third could be west of downtown, west of the river at New York and Lynn Street. These stations would be served by three on-street circulator type light rail lines. These circulator lines could run along Washington Street between the east station and the Zoo via the Washington street pedestrian bridge, North along Illinois Street between Union Station and 16th street area or even up to 30th street area near the Children’s Museum and along New York or Michigan Street from the west station, through IUPUI and out towards the Woodruff Place area.

I should plot out a whole sytem on a GIS program.

It's a pretty wild idea, but I think it could work. The most important part, however, is the hub at Union Station.

An example of the many forms of transit that could be connected into Union Station. Regional Rail, Light rail/circulator, IndyGo Bus and High Speed Rail/Amtrak. Oh, I forgot to mention Greyhound. It could also be integrated into the southwest side of the train shed.
http://static.flickr.com/1/131768628_79d030b8ee_o.jpg

Those are great graphics. And Greyhound desperately needs a new terminal. I still dont like the idea of a downtown bus terminal though, as it is an inconvenience for those who have to travel from one side of town to the other shouldn't have to make an unnecessary stop downtown. IndyGo does this on purpose, which really irritates me. They would rather you waste 45 minutes and pay another $1.25 to get where you're going.

Are there any new developments with rail and whatnot? Also I would like you guys to continue posting pics, I would really appreciate that.

the belt-way/beltline: so it currently exists but is unused? what is around the right of way? could it be transformed into trails/medium-dense housing, etc? can someone post an aerial.

union station: how much of the space is vacant? i thought a lot of the space was converted into office space?

thehoss, surely you asked why union station was not considered while you were there? if so, what was the answer?

An interesting aside:

Indianapolis Development News was active from 7/15/04 to 9/30/05, ~14.5 months.

Indianapolis Development News 2 was active from 9/30/05 to 1/27/06, ~4 months.

Indianapolis Development News 3 was active from 1/27/06 to 4/19/06, ~2.5 months.

At this rate, we're going to rip through Indianapolis Development News 4 in less than 2 months.

^^Yes, definetely. We should advertise for folks to hop on the Indy bandwagon!

An interesting aside:

Indianapolis Development News was active from 7/15/04 to 9/30/05, ~14.5 months.

Indianapolis Development News 2 was active from 9/30/05 to 1/27/06, ~4 months.

Indianapolis Development News 3 was active from 1/27/06 to 4/19/06, ~2.5 months.

At this rate, we're going to rip through Indianapolis Development News 4 in less than 2 months.

Interesting indeed! You guys are almost as prolific as us Milwaukeeans as of late. :)

Here's an article about a new water park in the works:

Water wonderland
$65M indoor park-hotel complex planned for Fishers
By Bruce C. Smith
bruce.smith@indystar.com
April 20, 2006


They go by the names Typhoon Lagoon, Blizzard Beach and Wet 'n' Wild. Some are as big as shopping malls. Combined, they attract tens of millions of visitors a year.
Water parks are among the hottest segments of the recreation industry -- especially those built in or alongside resort hotels.
Now, developers are planning a resort in Fishers called Paradise Bay, which they say will become Indiana's largest indoor water park, hotel and conference center.
The $65 million park is to be part of the 131st Street Marketplace of retailing, restaurants and offices on a 104-acre site at 131st Street and Ind. 37. The location is the former Britton Golf Course.
The park will join several others in the state: Caribbean Cove opened as an expansion of the Holiday Inn Select on Indianapolis' Northwestside. And last year, Plainfield opened Splash Island indoor and outdoor water park in a town park.
Other water parks are being proposed for Kent and Shipshewana in Northern Indiana.
Although expensive to construct -- often $85 million to $100 million or more -- indoor water parks are a booming segment of the recreation and travel industry.
The World Waterpark Association and its consultants estimated about 100 indoor water parks in the U.S. in 2004. Up to 141 will be open or under construction by the end of this year.
Mortgage and apartment company operator Kenneth R. Puller, associate Angela Wilson and businessman Bob Peterson are partners in the company proposing the 216-room resort and 80,000-square-foot family water park in Fishers. Peterson said Wednesday that park could open by 2008.
Among the planned features are a 500,000-gallon wave pool and a relaxing lazy river for floating. The facility is to include a restaurant and large arcade.
Some are comparing the new development to the water parks of the Wisconsin Dells, near Milwaukee, which bills itself as "Water Park Capital of the World."
Indianapolis land developers Skjodt Thomas Associates will prepare the land for construction. The firm also is involved in developing another large water park, resort and retail complex in the Iowa farm fields east of Des Moines.
So far, Fishers planning authorities have approved the site for hundreds of thousands of square feet of offices, restaurants and retailing.
Some companies credit the water park boom to a growing demand for quick, accessible family fun without requiring a long plane ride.
"What really drives this trend is time," said John Emery, president of Wisconsin-based Great Wolf Resorts, a publicly traded company in the entertainment water park business. It has eight sites in Midwestern and Eastern states.
"People are so pressed for time that the idea of a two-hour drive to an upscale vacation is very appealing," he said. "Time pressures and economics, that's it."
Great Wolf opened a park in Canada last week. And the company's next resort under construction is in Mason, Ohio, near Kings Island, the closest major amusement park to Indianapolis.
Emery said the company is scouting constantly for new locations, but has no plans to build in Indianapolis.
Many of the new developments are in the Midwest and Eastern states, and where indoor parks can operate year-round.

I just noticed this Stutz Condominiums listing over at Emporis as a "Proposed" building. Has anybody ever heard of this?

http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=234695

I think I have actually, i think it has been mentioned on here bfore, or maybe I saw it on emporis one day when scrolling around. It says the developer plans to see 12-24 floors, I just hope it is 24 and not 12! :)

The Stutz is a pipe dream! It might happen one day, but don't think it is coming anytime soon. This is more a "vision" than anything.

Are there any new developments with rail and whatnot? Also I would like you guys to continue posting pics, I would really appreciate that.

The alternative alignments from the Northeast have been narrowed down to two - one along downtown city streets, the other along existing above-grade tracks. I'm not sure about the timeframe for a final announcement.

the belt-way/beltline: so it currently exists but is unused? what is around the right of way? could it be transformed into trails/medium-dense housing, etc? can someone post an aerial.

union station: how much of the space is vacant? i thought a lot of the space was converted into office space?

thehoss, surely you asked why union station was not considered while you were there? if so, what was the answer?

The beltway is and has been in use for the last 100+ years. Beltway is in yellow, Amtrak in Purple:

http://www.oongawa.com/dt/rr.jpg

I'm not sure how much of Union Station is vacant, but most of it is rented. It appears the City is only interested in generating enough rent to pay the bills.

Those are great graphics. And Greyhound desperately needs a new terminal. I still dont like the idea of a downtown bus terminal though, as it is an inconvenience for those who have to travel from one side of town to the other shouldn't have to make an unnecessary stop downtown. IndyGo does this on purpose, which really irritates me. They would rather you waste 45 minutes and pay another $1.25 to get where you're going.
Not quite sure what your resistance is to this. Sure there will always be a need for crosstown routes, but every major european city center I've been to has a transportation hub where all the modes of public transportation, local, regional and international meet... train, bus, taxi, etc. and usually a few straight lines to the airport. This is a tried and true method, and It's about time Indy.... and the rest of the midwest got into gear.

What better location for it than the proposed location next to the convention center downtown? Eapecially when you take into account the expandability and possibly future rail lines in Union Station.

As for current Indygo, we already have a de facto "hub"... except that everyone has to wait on busy, crowded city streets exposed the weather as the busses circle the downtown loop... A downtown hub would accomplish the same thing but would be safer, more comfortable, and would logically attract more customers as a result.

Besides, you don't have to plunk down another $1.25, just get a transfer for a quarter and you can ride any second line.

thanks IndyBob!!!

but, i am confused...or just slow. please clarify for me: when you said "re-routing freight traffic to the belt-way would affect both a large daytime and nighttime population" , what exactly do you mean? so the beltway & east-west rail are both being used for freight?

Also you said, "The State has already made it clear that if high speed rail were to become a reality, Union Station WILL be the transit hub...", so if most of the space has been converted into office space, then.... ?
maybe it is a temporary office just so it wouldn't be vacant in case things didn't/don't work out????

IndyBob, it seems as if you are in the know to talk some sense into someone in power?

thanks IndyBob!!!

but, i am confused...or just slow. please clarify for me: when you said "re-routing freight traffic to the belt-way would affect both a large daytime and nighttime population" , what exactly do you mean? so the beltway & east-west rail are both being used for freight?

Also you said, "The State has already made it clear that if high speed rail were to become a reality, Union Station WILL be the transit hub...", so if most of the space has been converted into office space, then.... ?
maybe it is a temporary office just so it wouldn't be vacant in case things didn't/don't work out????

IndyBob, it seems as if you are in the know to talk some sense into someone in power?

The basic structure of Union Station has never changed. It's basically a large shed for trains awaiting passengers with room underneath for passengers to go from line to line, or enter/exit onto the street. It also has the beautiful grand entrance hall attached of course.

The massive shed area has been temporarily partitioned into spaces for offices and other uses, but all the city needs to do is rip out those partitions, and voila! A classic, massively huge single room train shed, with waiting areas and drop off and pick up zones for passengers, and stairways leading "underground" (to street level really) for passengers to go from track to track.

It's all still there, waiting for a better day.

thanks IndyBob!!!

but, i am confused...or just slow. please clarify for me: when you said "re-routing freight traffic to the belt-way would affect both a large daytime and nighttime population" , what exactly do you mean? so the beltway & east-west rail are both being used for freight?

Also you said, "The State has already made it clear that if high speed rail were to become a reality, Union Station WILL be the transit hub...", so if most of the space has been converted into office space, then.... ?
maybe it is a temporary office just so it wouldn't be vacant in case things didn't/don't work out????

IndyBob, it seems as if you are in the know to talk some sense into someone in power?

Daytime population generally refers to workers, while nighttime population generally refers to residents. Lilly's argument was that re-routing the freight traffic would affect less people. The southside of downtown definitely has more daytime workers than the areas adjacent to the beltway, but the beltway has far more residents (day and night) than the southside of downtown. So rerouting the trains to protect downtown workers would come at the expense of the poor neighborhood residents.

The population figures were derived using a half mile (or maybe it was one mile) buffer around the rail lines.

As I said before, the City's first priority is to generate revenue from Union Station, not lose money. Since we don't have local rail service, this makes a lot of sense. Any space in Union Station can be deemed temporary. As Moochie said, rip out the office space and you have a train station. But I'm not sure the engineering and architecture companies who have offices there are viewing it as temporary. Since the City and MPO have not endorsed using Union Station as a transit hub - in fact, they are proposing a new, separate transit hub - what purpose does Union Station serve, other than office space?

One thing that gripes me about Union Station is that it's a public building, but the head house (grand hall) is controlled by a private catering group!

I agree that using Union Station for anything other than a main transportation hub would be a huge mistake! Everything is falling into place for that location to be ideal, especially with the new convention headquarters hotel possibly going up right next door.

Not quite sure what your resistance is to this. Sure there will always be a need for crosstown routes, but every major european city center I've been to has a transportation hub where all the modes of public transportation, local, regional and international meet... train, bus, taxi, etc. and usually a few straight lines to the airport. This is a tried and true method, and It's about time Indy.... and the rest of the midwest got into gear.

What better location for it than the proposed location next to the convention center downtown? Eapecially when you take into account the expandability and possibly future rail lines in Union Station.

As for current Indygo, we already have a de facto "hub"... except that everyone has to wait on busy, crowded city streets exposed the weather as the busses circle the downtown loop... A downtown hub would accomplish the same thing but would be safer, more comfortable, and would logically attract more customers as a result.

Besides, you don't have to plunk down another $1.25, just get a transfer for a quarter and you can ride any second line.

First of all, I am not against a hub. Just one for IndyGo. A hub would much better serve rail lines and national bus lines like Greyhound.

And second of all, IndyGo eliminated transfers in 2004, and when they did have them they were free (from 1998 until 2004). You have to pay $1.25 each way. For people who have to transfer twice this amounts to five dollars for a round trip. The cheapest option is a day pass that costs $3.00. I have a bike and a car but I ride the bus as much as I can to conserve gas.

And Union Station would make an excellent hub for all three.

First of all, I am not against a hub. Just one for IndyGo. A hub would much better serve rail lines and national bus lines like Greyhound.

And second of all, IndyGo eliminated transfers in 2004, and when they did have them they were free (from 1998 until 2004). You have to pay $1.25 each way. For people who have to transfer twice this amounts to five dollars for a round trip. The cheapest option is a day pass that costs $3.00. I have a bike and a car but I ride the bus as much as I can to conserve gas.
And why are you against one for Indygo? as I've already stated, we essentially already have one, it's just spread out in the open in the downtown loop. The current system is inefficient, dirty, esposed to the elements and dangerous. Put it under a roof connected to all other public transportation systems in a large many faceted transportation hub.. and we join the 20th century....

I agree that using Union Station for anything other than a main transportation hub would be a huge mistake! Everything is falling into place for that location to be ideal, especially with the new convention headquarters hotel possibly going up right next door.


who do you contact/write to express your views about Union Station being a transit hub?

My guess would be somewhere with the City's planning department.

Hey everyone, I'm new to this forum. I'm an architecture student out of state but am from the Indianapolis area. I am constantly checking out your posts to see what's happening in Indy. I am a big fan of the city and am always interested in its future. Just thought I'd say what's up.

And Union Station would make an excellent hub for all three.

How is Union Station doing these days? Is it still second fiddle to the "Circle Center Mall? " "Circle Center" seems to be the most active downtown mall I've ever visited in the Midwest.

The MPO is who you would contact about Union Station. They can be found at:

www.indygov.org/planning

As for Union Station itself, I believe that it is fully occupied. It is not used for any retail at all, mostly all office, with the exception of El Sol restaurant. Cicrle Centre killed what retail remained in 1995.

Yep, Circle Centre has always been a pretty vibrant mall. The faact that there is no development in Union Station right now is what makes it a prime spot for a hub.

The MPO is who you would contact about Union Station. They can be found at:

www.indygov.org/planning

As for Union Station itself, I believe that it is fully occupied. It is not used for any retail at all, mostly all office, with the exception of El Sol restaurant. Cicrle Centre killed what retail remained in 1995.

i would have to assume that anyone in the planning field would be pro union station as the transit hub? and if the State already made a supporting position. does anyone think letters are needed to stress the importance of union station as a transit hub?

after i typed that i thought, if they build a new transit hub at the post office site, then there is no way union station will be used, right or wrong? plus, if the mayor is wanting to build a new hub, then the public's opinion may not matter.

i would have to assume that anyone in the planning field would be pro union station as the transit hub? and if the State already made a supporting position. does anyone think letters are needed to stress the importance of union station as a transit hub?

after i typed that i thought, if they build a new transit hub at the post office site, then there is no way union station will be used, right or wrong? plus, if the mayor is wanting to build a new hub, then the public's opinion may not matter.

There's always the possibility of an underground connection between a transit hub at the post office and Union Station, if they choose to reuse that for any form of transportation.

As Mayor Peterson said "I'd like to see the transit center go there and be connected either directly or indirectly to the new stadium and convention center."

Also, David Frick, Chairman of the Board for the Indiana Stadium and Convention Building Authority, has been quoted as saying the stadium and expanded convention center will likely be connected underground, due to the stadium field being below grade.

Since there already appears to be support from the big-wigs, a relatively small system of tunnels connecting the new transit hub, stadium and convention center seems likely. It wouldn't take much to extend that to Union Station if they wanted to use it.

i would have to assume that anyone in the planning field would be pro union station as the transit hub? and if the State already made a supporting position. does anyone think letters are needed to stress the importance of union station as a transit hub?

after i typed that i thought, if they build a new transit hub at the post office site, then there is no way union station will be used, right or wrong? plus, if the mayor is wanting to build a new hub, then the public's opinion may not matter.
Thing is, Union Station is ideal, and is already built for rail. the tracks are a story above grade, and there is already infrastructure built underneath for foot traffic. Indygo/greyhound and taxi traffic is better at street level. It'd be very simple to build a bus terminal attached to Union Station by tunnels or even foot overpass over South street. Run an express rail line to the airport, and we have the best of all worlds.... a real transit hub, just like a real city.

Now, if only we could get some real architecture in the mix...

okay, i think it is becoming clearer. you guys are saying that if the new hub gets built at the post office site, it would be for buses AND Union Station would be used for rail.

The alternative alignments from the Northeast have been narrowed down to two - one along downtown city streets, the other along existing above-grade tracks. I'm not sure about the timeframe for a final announcement.

the alternative that is along city streets wouldn't be for the entire length would it; does that option include BRT of light rail? if/when the first line is finished, where do you think the second line will be?

based on the transit/bus hub article, it would seem that an announcment would be coming late summer/early fall, since the article mentioned something about losing funding if you don't have definite plans (if i read it correctly).

okay, i think it is becoming clearer. you guys are saying that if the new hub gets built at the post office site, it would be for buses AND Union Station would be used for rail.

I hope you're not using me as evidence of that! My post was basically about the feasability of infrastructure. Seems like moochie has a clearer picture, but honestly, I'm still a little confused. Let me see if I can work through this. My sense is that there are 3 major areas of transportation:

local - taxi, bus (IndyGo)
metro - proposed light rail/bus
regional/national - air, proposed regional high speed rail, traditional rail (Amtrak) and bus (greyhound)

The current problems are:

Horrible local bus system with an inconvenient/disruptive hub.
Complete lack of a metro transportation system.
Airport disconnected from downtown.

I have no sense of what exactly is going to use the new transit hub and what rail systems could/should use Union Station. Someone indicated that the state was interested in reuse of Union Station, so that says regional rail to me (i.e. the state shouldn't care about metro rail). Metro rail seems more appropriate for Union Station's location in the heart of downtown, though. Regional rail makes much more sense connecting to the airport. But is the city interested in metro rail at the new transit hub instead of Union Station?

Ok, I'm done. I'm just confusing the situation. Maybe somebody else can clear this up.

I hope you're not using me as evidence of that! My post was basically about the feasability of infrastructure. Seems like moochie has a clearer picture, but honestly, I'm still a little confused. Let me see if I can work through this. My sense is that there are 3 major areas of transportation:

local - taxi, bus (IndyGo)
metro - proposed light rail/bus
regional/national - air, proposed regional high speed rail, traditional rail (Amtrak) and bus (greyhound)

The current problems are:

Horrible local bus system with an inconvenient/disruptive hub.
Complete lack of a metro transportation system.
Airport disconnected from downtown.

I have no sense of what exactly is going to use the new transit hub and what rail systems could/should use Union Station. Someone indicated that the state was interested in reuse of Union Station, so that says regional rail to me (i.e. the state shouldn't care about metro rail). Metro rail seems more appropriate for Union Station's location in the heart of downtown, though. Regional rail makes much more sense connecting to the airport. But is the city interested in metro rail at the new transit hub instead of Union Station?

Ok, I'm done. I'm just confusing the situation. Maybe somebody else can clear this up.
I have been to literally dozens of train stations in Europe and elsewhere, and have never come across one that didn't incorporate a mix of both local and regional/international rail.* I don't see any reason why both can't be utilized at both the airport and a possible downtown rail station as needed.

*Assuming that the city/town in question had local rail of course.

MERIDIAN ST. CORRIDOR TARGETED FOR REVITALIZATION

Indianapolis, April 21, 2006 - The city is targeting two areas near downtown for revitalization. The first is the Meridian Street corridor stretching from Interstate 65 north to Fall Creek Parkway.

On Friday, the city announced Side Street Deli will move to a larger location at 23rd and Meridian. It's the first move in an effort to bring thriving businesses into the area. Side Street plans to add an outdoor patio area and begin offering banquet space and conference services.

"Meridian Street is clearly the great main street of Indianapolis...it is beautiful in many places. In other places it has dropped down a little bit," said Mayor Bart Peterson (D-Indianapolis).

source: http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=4802386

i think at least this section of Meridan should be streetscaped with a tree-lined median for aesthetics & traffic calming....especially if they are going to have outdoor eating areas. maybe they could market this area as UPTOWN...I know it's cheezy b/c almost every city has one. comments???

what is the best way to give suggestions to the Dept of Metro Dvlpmnt--e-mail or phone?

GT - e-mail the director: http://www.indygov.org/eGov/City/DMD/staff.htm

The Meridian St. corridor is part of a larger corridor effort through the FOCUS initiative.

Mayor's press release (http://www.indygov.org/pr/20060421a.htm)

FOCUS website (http://www.focusindy.com)

Somebody please explain to me the logic of putting the transit center south of Union Station. A couple years back I worked as an intern for the Metropolitan Planning Organization and worked a bit on the Directions transit study. I was and continue to be infuriated by the fact that this study does not consider Union Station as a possible transit hub. There are so many reasons it should at least be considered. I won't list them now because I'm tired and believe that no one is listing anyway.

I'm sorry; I know I sound like a little baby. I just feel that there may be a bit of arrogance at the mayor’s office and/or the planning department. They seem to think that they know best and don't need input from anyone else. The sad thing is, their vision for Indianapolis is small and is holding it back from its full potential.

Am I being too pessimistic?

Perhaps they aren't thinking small at all. Perhaps they're thinking big... Really big.

Union Station would be an incredibly poor choice for a bus hub. Union Station is absolutely ideal for rail... obviously...

Perhaps the entire area south of Union Station on both sides of South street, including the current Mail facility could be built as the indygo hub, with Greyhound, taxi service etc. combined. Even a monstrous parking garage could be built for use as long term parking for Greyhound riders, and for even car rental facilities... That site is really huge you know. This facility would be connected by tunnel and/or gerbil tube over South street to Union Station.

Union Station would serve as the rail hub for the entire Indianapolis region, and could be expanded over the decades according to need. With a dedicated high speed line run to the airport, we'd have a massive transportation hub that would serve the Indianapolis area well for generations. Hell, the entire combined site would be huge!

Your comment about "uptown" reminded me of a conversation I had many years ago with a friend from NYC. When I drove her to Indy for her first visit, she was underwhelmed with downtown Indy (like I said, she's from Manhattan), and asked, "So where's Uptown?" thinking there might be something more impressive than downtown Indy...

On the other hand, Indy could follow other places and call it "NoMer" or "NoDo" or something equally cheezalicious.

North Meridian could be a great pedestrian neighborhood with the right zoning and streetscape.

MERIDIAN ST. CORRIDOR TARGETED FOR REVITALIZATION

Indianapolis, April 21, 2006 - The city is targeting two areas near downtown for revitalization. The first is the Meridian Street corridor stretching from Interstate 65 north to Fall Creek Parkway.

On Friday, the city announced Side Street Deli will move to a larger location at 23rd and Meridian. It's the first move in an effort to bring thriving businesses into the area. Side Street plans to add an outdoor patio area and begin offering banquet space and conference services.

"Meridian Street is clearly the great main street of Indianapolis...it is beautiful in many places. In other places it has dropped down a little bit," said Mayor Bart Peterson (D-Indianapolis).

source: http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=4802386

i think at least this section of Meridan should be streetscaped with a tree-lined median for aesthetics & traffic calming....especially if they are going to have outdoor eating areas. maybe they could market this area as UPTOWN...I know it's cheezy b/c almost every city has one. comments???

what is the best way to give suggestions to the Dept of Metro Dvlpmnt--e-mail or phone?

These are my Indy transit definitions:

Amtrak = existing, slow daily service between Indy and Chicago

High Speed Rail/Amtrak = High speed rail system proposed by the Indiana High Speed
Rail Association that would connect Indianapolis to other Midwestern cities. This line could be operated by Amtrak (Think Acela Express on the Northeast Corridor)

Regional Rail = Service that would link population centers in the metro area. This system would use existing rail right-of ways and possibly diesel multiple unit technology. (Think service between Noblesville and DT, Greenfield to DT, Franklin to DT, Plainfield through the Airport to DT and Zionsville to DT.

Greyhound = Interstate Bus Service

Light Rail/Circulator/trolley = light, electrified, on-street rail service that would supplement the regional rail system.

IndyGo = Current local bus service

http://static.flickr.com/44/133497728_d4bd8be0a5.jpg

One thing I just noticed... the much vaunted view of downtown from Lucas Oil Stadium will have the new convention hotel (assuming the pan am one is chosen) taking up as much as half the entire view... If there ever was a reason for good architecture that the city could understand... it's that.

http://oingyboingy.com/images/stadiumpanam.JPG

i think at least this section of Meridan should be streetscaped with a tree-lined median for aesthetics & traffic calming....especially if they are going to have outdoor eating areas. maybe they could market this area as UPTOWN...I know it's cheezy b/c almost every city has one. comments???


Isnt that area already known as midtown?

yes. Funny how a lot don't know that. That stretch of Meridian is really going to change with Fall Creek Place spilling over. New street trees and landscpaing would really be nice. Also, the bridges over Fall Creek should have a lighting scheme...and that stretch of the Creek cleaned up.

cwilson, please email your suggestions to the DMD director as I plant to also!

It is ridiculous that the stadium is being built at a diagonal angle. I don't think their reasoning holds much weight. What's more, the view of downtown from the interior will only be visible by of small miniority of the people in the stadium. you will have to sit at just the right angle. It would be great if someone built an enormous billboard directly across the street that obsured the view of downtown. Although, like I said, not very many people would be able to see it.

By the way, this is a short video of the type of train that I think would be perfect for Indianapolis.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5599686034758763472&q=dmu&pl=true

It is a diesel multiple unit which means that it is self propelled by diesel fuel. That means that expensive overhead electrical catenaries wouldn’t have to be built. The rail corridors in Indianapolis could be utilized with only rail and crossing upgrades and replacements. This type of train is built for regional rail type service with 2 to 3 miles between stations. This would be perfect for service between Noblesville and DT Indy, Greenfield and DT, Franklin and DT, Plainfield and DT, and Zionsville and DT. These lines would all be between 18 and 23 miles and could have 10 or 11 strategic stops along the way. What an unbelievable opportunity to connect all of Indianapolis thereby strengthening downtown and focusing intense, high-quality development around the stations. A very similar version of this train called the Talent is built in Canada by Bombardier. The city of Ottawa started a pilot project with the Talent DMU in 2001 on 5 miles of track which has proven to be successful.

Nice clip. I also believe that the angle on the stadium's site is retarded. It would be pretty fucked up once that hotel goes up.

I mean, it looks weird from the air seeing how our downtown is a continuous grid

It is ridiculous that the stadium is being built at a diagonal angle. I don't think their reasoning holds much weight. What's more, the view of downtown from the interior will only be visible by of small miniority of the people in the stadium. you will have to sit at just the right angle. It would be great if someone built an enormous billboard directly across the street that obsured the view of downtown. Although, like I said, not very many people would be able to see it.
I whole-heartedly disagree. You may be correct that a relatively small number of people that will be able to see the downtown skyline, although I'm guessing that it's higher than you think. If you look at the alternative -- orienting the stadium with the streets -- NO ONE would see the skyline. Is that better?

What reasoning can you provide to orient the stadium with the streets? Parking? I see in some of the mock-ups that they're putting parking in many of the triangular spaces at the corners of the block. With the angled positioning you probably lose spaces, maybe 10-20%, but I think the trade-off is worth it. I also like the grand entrance at the NE corner where many people will be able to gather before going into the stadium. That's the direction that vast majority of people will be coming from, given that all the parking and pre-game entertainment will be in downtown.

I mean, it looks weird from the air seeing how our downtown is a continuous grid
What about the diagonal streets in downtown? Do you think that Mass Ave looks weird from the air?

One thing I just noticed... the much vaunted view of downtown from Lucas Oil Stadium will have the new convention hotel (assuming the pan am one is chosen) taking up as much as half the entire view... If there ever was a reason for good architecture that the city could understand... it's that.


if you read this IBJ article, one of the participants in the forum 'knows' the Courtyard Marriott/White River area will be the place for the hotel (not even 1,000 rooms)..and it will be a JW Marriott - link: http://www.ibj.com/stories/html/042406-focus.html

if you read this IBJ article, one of the participants in the forum 'knows' the Courtyard Marriott/White River area will be the place for the hotel (not even 1,000 rooms)..and it will be a JW Marriott - link: http://www.ibj.com/stories/html/042406-focus.html
He said that the Mariott project will happen, not that the Pan Am one won't.

It is ridiculous that the stadium is being built at a diagonal angle. I don't think their reasoning holds much weight. What's more, the view of downtown from the interior will only be visible by of small miniority of the people in the stadium. you will have to sit at just the right angle. It would be great if someone built an enormous billboard directly across the street that obsured the view of downtown. Although, like I said, not very many people would be able to see it.
I read that the real reason the stadium is being built at an angle is to allow multiple views from tv cameras set up on not one, but 4 corners during events. If it was built normally, tv views would be very limited. It's all about showing the stadium off, and showing the logo to as many people as possible.

I am confident that the Courtyard Marriott project will happen too, like I said in the previous Indy Dev thread, BUT my thoughts are that it won't receive the financial backing of the City. The City REALLY wants the Pan Am site for the convention hotel. The main reasoning is that site will be DIRECTLY attached to the convention center and Circle Centre. The Courtyard site, although capable of being indirectly connected, is too far from the "center" of the convention world downtown. Also, it is too "suburban" over there and just doesn't give an "urban" vibe.

NOW, if the City does choose to back the courtyard site and not any proposal at Pan Am Plaza, it will be the biggest planning/development blunder of the decade. I will write letters of disgust until my fingers bleed.

What about the diagonal streets in downtown? Do you think that Mass Ave looks weird from the air?
What about the diagonals? First of all I am referring to symmetry of the stadium and not the streets. Second, those four diagonals run at 45 degree angles, providing variety and balance within the grid. In my opinion a building skewed at 60 degrees disrupts it. I'm not saying that it cant be done, but just that it looks a little funny to me.

i like the building at the southwest corner of downtown being at an angle. if they were building it on the current location of the postal hub at the straight southern edge of downtown then by all means align it north and south.

It's not that he is saying the Marriott project is a done deal, raher that a 1,000 room hotel is a "done deal."

From the IBJ:

"IBJ: Mike, your company has a proposal for 1,000-room-plus hotel complex on the Courtyard by Marriott site. Of course, existing hotel operators maybe aren’t too pleased with that. What do you say to owners and operators who don’t think the market can absorb that many more rooms?

WELLS: Too bad; it’s going to happen. Am I at my time limit?

Well, it is a kind of process. The stadium is under construction; the state has issued bonds for $25 million to expand our convention center. We have a great convention center business. With the convention center expanded, Price Waterhouse Coopers had a study done which concluded that if you don’t have an additional large hotel, you are essentially wasting expansion of the convention center.

It is a done deal. Either expand an existing hotel or build a new hotel. The new Marriott was built a number of years ago, and there were concerns in the marketplace. That hotel kind of took all the hotels to another level and has done better and attracted more conventions. By doing a lot of expansion, we can attract big conventions that we lost that we need back.

Plus, everyone is very aware of the fact that the convention business is what drives your restaurants downtown, which drives your retail. If you don’t have convention business, your mall fails; your restaurants start to go away. It is painful when you bring on a new hotel, but if you hang the right flag and it is done the right way, I think it will make the market just that much better.

THOMAS: I would like to add one comment. I think if you take Mark’s infrastructure comment about the suburbs, I view this as nothing more than good fundamental infrastructure in our down town. It is a continuation of Dick Lugar’s efforts 30 years ago, and the only reason we can sell a $400,000 or million-dollar condominium downtown is because you can talk about those dynamic places that are supported by the convention business. I have worked across the country, and everybody wants downtown housing, and a lot of people are chasing us, but we have a 30-year head start. It is going to take continuing investment in that general infrastructure like convention business and giant hotels to stay ahead of the folks."

this is also in the article:

"...IBJ: Mike Wells. Someone wants to know how your hotel development—which contains a couple of different hotel flags and a water park that attracts families and kids—works as a convention hotel?

WELLS: Well, the answer to that is there are a number of conventions each year, typically about 38 to 40 major conventions. What we are trying to do is to attract people downtown and have the convention hotel, which is going to be JW Marriott, which would be 800 [rooms], and then also have a select-serve hotel so that when you don’t have conventions, which is quite often, you backfill with families and others.

So, it is a real nice plus. We’re not really looking for conventioneers generally to come to go down some water slides. Not that they won’t do that, but that’s probably not the way it is..."

^^Great news for downtown then.

So let me get this straight, The marriot off of (West st. ?) is going to be torn down and this developer IS going to build a 800 room hotel and water park in addition to a convention hotel at Pan Am?

I hope this is the correct way to interpret all this information because this is phenomenal news!

Some one PLEASE clarify for me...

No, the Courtyard by Marriott and the Pan Am site are two different proposals for the new convention hotel. The Marriott site is being proposed by White Industries/REI Development, which would tear down the eastern wing of the Marriott, build a new 800-room convention hotel, build another budget motel to the west, and add a water park.

The Pan Am site is being proposed by Michael Browning, which would include a 44-story tower.

White Industries is the same company that developed the new Marriott on Maryland Street. Don't expect any earth-shattering height or design from their proposal - I would guess only 20-25 stories.

So let me get this straight, The marriot off of (West st. ?) is going to be torn down and this developer IS going to build a 800 room hotel and water park in addition to a convention hotel at Pan Am?

I hope this is the correct way to interpret all this information because this is phenomenal news!

Some one PLEASE clarify for me...
Okay, a 1350 room capacity hotel will be built on the site off West and Washington/Maryland with an indoor water/amusement park. It will consist of 3 buildings joined together by the park. The Eastern most building will be 800 rooms and will be geared more towards convention center customers, while the smaller buildings will be geared more towards families.

This will be built independent to whatever is built as the Convention Center Hotel, which will most likely be built on Pan am Plaza. Yes, the water park hotel is a proposal for the convention center hotel, but as has been stated, it will probably be built regardless.

Probably...

Thank you Moochie. Any renderings of the hotel other than the proposed convention hotel renderings article?

Yes, renderings would be nice. :)

the only rendering is for the Pan Am site which I think you all have seen already, if not look at the previous thread.

An interesting aside:

Indianapolis Development News was active from 7/15/04 to 9/30/05, ~14.5 months.

Indianapolis Development News 2 was active from 9/30/05 to 1/27/06, ~4 months.

Indianapolis Development News 3 was active from 1/27/06 to 4/19/06, ~2.5 months.

At this rate, we're going to rip through Indianapolis Development News 4 in less than 2 months.
At our current rate, we'll have a hundred posts a week... blowing your 2 month prediction out of the water...

This will be built independent to whatever is built as the Convention Center Hotel, which will most likely be built on Pan am Plaza. Yes, the water park hotel is a proposal for the convention center hotel, but as has been stated, it will probably be built regardless.

Probably...

Wells did not state that his project will be built, regardless. He said that a new hotel or an expansion would add another 800-1000 rooms to the current inventory. I don't believe there is any way downtown could absorb 2000+ hotel rooms in such a short period of time. I'm sure any major hotel built in the last 20 years had some sort of public subsidy. If there is public money for a new convention hotel on Pan Am Plaza, there most likely wouldn't be any public money left for the Courtyard by Marriott site. And that project would definitely need public dollars.

At our current rate, we'll have a hundred posts a week... blowing your 2 month prediction out of the water...
I would be proud if my prediction was wrong, especially if our prolific writing was any indication of the pace of development in Indianapolis.

Well the prodigal son returns. This board sure has exploded, when I left over a year ago, Indy was top dog and the other cities hardly had any froumers here. By the way, what in the hell happened to SSP? It's dead.

No one goes over to SSP anymore because of all the crap that floats around there.

Why isn't Indianapolis capable of doing this?

Jacksonville, FL Transportation Plan (http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=44997)

Why isn't Indianapolis capable of doing this?

Jacksonville, FL Transportation Plan (http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=44997)
According to Cory on the kcskyscraper site, the mayor is a couple weeks from announcing our equivalent... I don't know any details though. <cough>

Oh really? Well I will be eligilbe for social security when it is implimented tho! :)

Social Security will be bankrupt in four days :jk:

Yes, the Mayor is just a few weeks away from an annoucement, at least that is the info I had the last time I was in a meeting with him concerning this. I have to admit though that I have not been able to attend a meeting since February, so certainly, some things may have changed. Again though, this should become a news story in the coming weeks.

All from the Indy Star. Right now, you can view all 22 renderings by going to www.indystar.com and looking part-way down the left column. Here's a couple of the best:

http://cmsimg.indystar.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?NewTbl=1&Avis=BG&Dato=20060425&Kategori=MULTIMEDIA01&Lopenr=604260804&Ref=PH&Item=10&MaxW=500&MaxH=400&Q=80

I think the logos are done pretty tastefully, although I wish they'd leave the logo off the roof.
http://cmsimg.indystar.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?NewTbl=1&Avis=BG&Dato=20060425&Kategori=MULTIMEDIA01&Lopenr=604260804&Ref=PH&Item=9&MaxW=500&MaxH=400&Q=80

However, this seems like Lucas Oil overload.
http://cmsimg.indystar.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?NewTbl=1&Avis=BG&Dato=20060425&Kategori=MULTIMEDIA01&Lopenr=604260804&Ref=PH&Item=12&MaxW=500&MaxH=400&Q=80

Oh really? Well I will be eligilbe for social security when it is implimented tho! :)
Will you retire in 6 years?

LOL, NO, Thank GOD!!!, But I bet it is more than six years before it is implemented! I hope Im wrong but I doubt it.

"Social Security will be bankrupt in four days" LOL, Nice. Im too lazy to put it in quotes...

Yeah, I dont like the roof logo either :sleepy:.
And the picture with the bottles shows the many opportunities Lucas Oil will have to slather their name across the stadium

Yeah, I dont like the roof logo either :sleepy:.
And the picture with the bottles shows the many opportunities Lucas Oil will have to slather their name across the stadium
That's what they're paying for...

At least this sponsor has a locally themed product. It won't look so bad having race cars and products all over the place in an Indy stadium. That's what you'd expect to see right?

It could be so much worse... It could be the "Walmart fieldhouse" with elderly uniformed greeters at every entrance... come up with your own nightmare scenario.

The Gold building was sold to someone out of state today.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060428/BUSINESS/604280428

I don't know if this is actually news... or even important, but I'm so starved for any information about One Market Square that I'll grasp at any straw. I'll see ANY new development in the area as a positive step that will heal that ugly scar on the east side of downtown and jumpstart Market street vicinity development... Gaaah.. would they fucking hurry up and take down that ramp already? September won't come soon enough.

Surely the sale of these prominent eastside buildings to out of state owners signifies the fact that the area is viable and about to explode in value right?

Walked the dog downtown today. The One Market Square sales center has definitely vacated about half their current sales office at the Gold building (251 Ohio. I'd like to think this is a good thing. Lotsa new and continuing residential construction on the Eastside of downtown. Those areas are really beginning to fill in. Hopefully this will generate the need for height.

Also, someone has posted outdoor Osha and minimum wage information, like the type required for any workplace, along the demolition zones at Market street where the ramp(s) are about to be demolished and built on Market street and Washington. Much movement and renovation on Market street EAST of the highway... which is a new development. I'll bet that things will kick into full swing late this summer/early fall.

Also, I noticed all over downtown, adult men and women of all types dressed in old cheap prom dresses running together in groups. There were cryptic symbols chalked on the sidewalks that they appeared to be deciphering, and running off to find new ones. I saw literally a few dozen of these people, but they all appeared to be pretty intent on whatever they were doing, so I didn't ask any questions. Some seemed fairly inebriated too... I did find the website www.indyhhh.com chalked in a couple places

I think I may join. Looks like fun.. except for the occasional crossdressing part of course.. anyone here interested?

That looks awesome as shit. But Im not 21, :( so I would not be able to do the bars, but I could do the hash. :)
But If I was with a group I dont think anyone would say anything...

An interesting aside:

Indianapolis Development News was active from 7/15/04 to 9/30/05, ~14.5 months.

Indianapolis Development News 2 was active from 9/30/05 to 1/27/06, ~4 months.

Indianapolis Development News 3 was active from 1/27/06 to 4/19/06, ~2.5 months.

At this rate, we're going to rip through Indianapolis Development News 4 in less than 2 months.

I love Indianapolis and reading about its development, I have for years now, it just hasnt been economical for me to move there just yet, but I plan to someday. Anywho, I was wondering if any of you have ever thought of making a website devoted to what is going on around Indianapolis, I would love to help out if funding is an issue.

Thoughts on the "Gold" Building. Wouldn't it be nice if the owners placed a lighting scheme around it so it would "sparkle" at night? That side of the skyline with the Gold Building and CCB are barley noticable at night because neither has any type of lighting. Once OMS gets built, that will really add length to the skyline and will need some "dressing" for maximum exposure.

Thoughts on the "Gold" Building. Wouldn't it be nice if the owners placed a lighting scheme around it so it would "sparkle" at night? That side of the skyline with the Gold Building and CCB are barley noticable at night because neither has any type of lighting. Once OMS gets built, that will really add length to the skyline and will need some "dressing" for maximum exposure.

sounds good, send an e-mail to the building owners with your suggestion.

I love Indianapolis and reading about its development, I have for years now, it just hasnt been economical for me to move there just yet, but I plan to someday. Anywho, I was wondering if any of you have ever thought of making a website devoted to what is going on around Indianapolis, I would love to help out if funding is an issue.
To be perfectly honest, this is the website I come to to get the latest news. We're all pretty hawkish here.

Has everyone see the thousand foot condo tower that they are going to build in Nashville? I wonder how condo towers can be so successful in places like Charlotte and Nashville, but not Indy. Could it be the people in charge of selling the units. I have requested information twice for the midrise units at OMS. The first time, a rep from Flock emailed me back and said it would be in the mail and she would like to discuss my thoughts over the phone. I waited over a week and didnt receive anything. I emailed her back a few times and received no response. I then called and said that due to my schedule, I can't make it to their sales office, but would like to receive more info. They told me they would mail it. Nothing has come. You would think with all the stuggles they have had with selling units, they would be doing a little better job with their second or third chance.

Has everyone see the thousand foot condo tower that they are going to build in Nashville? I wonder how condo towers can be so successful in places like Charlotte and Nashville, but not Indy.

Unless you are referring to a new building, the proposed Signature Tower in Nashville would be 700' tall. Do they have plans to make it taller? Signature Tower is also a true mixed-use building with condos, a hotel, office and retail. I'm not sure anyone in Indy has the wherewithall to be that creative.

Nashville's development is constrained by its hilly terrain. Since Charlotte has become a major banking center, there has been a migration of people from NYC. I would suspect that is what is driving the demand for high-rise living.

When OMS is built, we will have three 30+ story residential buildings, which I believe is better than any of our peer cities. If all of that crappy, low-density, suburban development like Firehouse Square wasn't built, we could have a 50-story building.

Unless you are referring to a new building, the proposed Signature Tower in Nashville would be 700' tall. Do they have plans to make it taller? Signature Tower is also a true mixed-use building with condos, a hotel, office and retail. I'm not sure anyone in Indy has the wherewithall to be that creative.

Nashville's development is constrained by its hilly terrain. Since Charlotte has become a major banking center, there has been a migration of people from NYC. I would suspect that is what is driving the demand for high-rise living.

When OMS is built, we will have three 30+ story residential buildings, which I believe is better than any of our peer cities. If all of that crappy, low-density, suburban development like Firehouse Square wasn't built, we could have a 50-story building.

Nashville's Signature Tower had its official unveiling last night:

65-stories and 1047' tall.

I'm not really sure what seperates Indy from Charlotte or Nashville. I think part of the reason Charlotte and Nashville are getting these sort of developments are partially because of the business climate in those two towns and partially because of the pent up desire for urban living. It seems that both cities are aggressively trying to establish themselves as the next Southern boom towns outside of Atlanta, Florida, and Texas. Charlotte is the biggest banking center outside New York and they are building at a feverish pace with great projects like Epicenter and The Vue. Nashville is a little behind Charlotte but getting there quickly with some amazing projects like Signature, WES, and ICON. It's been the top business relocation destination for a few years and they just managed to lure Nissan N.A. to the metro. So there's increasingly more interest in investing there.

The way the Southern metros are sprawling, it's easy to understand why people are wanting to move into downtown. Another thing to consider is that sunbelt cities like Charlotte and Nashville are a little behind more of the established Midwest urban cities like Indy when it comes to focusing on their urban areas. Folks in these towns are just now starting to take pride in these areas and focusing less on the 'burbs. Developers, seeing an almost blank canvas in these towns, are anxious to turn parking lots or out-dated buildings into skyline defining projects.

Unless you are referring to a new building, the proposed Signature Tower in Nashville would be 700' tall. Do they have plans to make it taller? Signature Tower is also a true mixed-use building with condos, a hotel, office and retail. I'm not sure anyone in Indy has the wherewithall to be that creative.

Nashville's development is constrained by its hilly terrain. Since Charlotte has become a major banking center, there has been a migration of people from NYC. I would suspect that is what is driving the demand for high-rise living.

When OMS is built, we will have three 30+ story residential buildings, which I believe is better than any of our peer cities. If all of that crappy, low-density, suburban development like Firehouse Square wasn't built, we could have a 50-story building.
Wrong on two points. First on the Signature tower, which will be a 1000+ mixed use tower, which puts it a 200 foot taller than our tallest.

Second, on Firehouse square being an impediment to higher building. Indy has a wealth of space, which has led to developers thinking small. There just isn't the huge need for building tall in downtown Indy. However, as space is filled in by low and midrise projects, demand will not decrease downtown, resulting in future high rise towers.

Twin bell towers planned for park
Retired businessman donating $2.2 million to transform skyline of western Hamilton County.

I missed this story...
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060115/NEWS01/601150426&SearchID=73232641714802

Twin bell towers planned for park
Retired businessman donating $2.2 million to transform skyline of western Hamilton County.

I missed this story...
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060115/NEWS01/601150426&SearchID=73232641714802
They broke ground on them recently. I believe the bells have been cast and are in the process of being shipped to the USA.

I'd love to see something like that at White River State park. Or perhaps in the middle of your roundabout at East and Market streets...

A couple of weeks ago we discussed creating a urban development organization/association and I have not seen anymore discussion on it since then. Did everyone not like the idea, or not willing to go ahead with it? I think me and Naptown were rather eager to do something like this. ???????????????????????????????????????

The signature tower in Nashville is absolutely amazing! My envy boils to the point of eruption when I consider the size comparisons...however, look on the brightside, the project does not begin for another 3 years, by then who knows what will be proposed here. Not to mention the already approved projects will either be nearing completion or beginning.

Wrong on two points. First on the Signature tower, which will be a 1000+ mixed use tower, which puts it a 200 foot taller than our tallest.

Second, on Firehouse square being an impediment to higher building. Indy has a wealth of space, which has led to developers thinking small. There just isn't the huge need for building tall in downtown Indy. However, as space is filled in by low and midrise projects, demand will not decrease downtown, resulting in future high rise towers.

First, I had not heard that the plans for Signature Tower were changed. The new plans were conveyed to me in a subsequent posting. The building will need to pre-sell 50% of its units before it can secure a construction loan.

Secondly, I did not say that Firehouse Square was an impediment to building taller buildings. What I said was, if developments like Firehouse Square (the Hudson, Packard & Cleavelander) weren't built, we could have had one tall building instead.

How much demand for tall buildings is there in Nashville, Charlotte, Columbus, etc.? More specifically, high-rise housing? Is it because they are running out of space? We can't even get a 380' project off the ground. How will there be future demand for high-rise housing? And there will certainly be less demand for high-rise office space in Indy. The only growth will come at the expense of existing buildings. We just don't have enough locally-based, big businesses to warrant new office towers.

The only possibility will come in the form of mixed-use buildings. And this is where I see our peers having an advantage. They have creativity and vision. I don't believe we do (except for the proposed Penn & Maryland development).

A couple of weeks ago we discussed creating a urban development organization/association and I have not seen anymore discussion on it since then. Did everyone not like the idea, or not willing to go ahead with it? I think me and Naptown were rather eager to do something like this. ???????????????????????????????????????

The signature tower in Nashville is absolutely amazing! My envy boils to the point of eruption when I consider the size comparisons...however, look on the brightside, the project does not begin for another 3 years, by then who knows what will be proposed here. Not to mention the already approved projects will either be nearing completion or beginning.
I could care less about building a thousand footer in Indy. Not that I'd oppose it, it's just that I'd much prefer to see commuter rail, continuing residential development downtown, and maybe a half dozen more 30 to 40 story buildings. Building tall just isn't important for Indy. We need bulk, and more urbanity.

Twin bell towers planned for park
Retired businessman donating $2.2 million to transform skyline of western Hamilton County.

I missed this story...
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060115/NEWS01/601150426&SearchID=73232641714802

Yeah, construction started not too long ago. I can actually see it from my backyard. The park is turning out really nice.

I could care less about building a thousand footer in Indy. Not that I'd oppose it, it's just that I'd much prefer to see commuter rail, continuing residential development downtown, and maybe a half dozen more 30 to 40 story buildings. Building tall just isn't important for Indy. We need bulk, and more urbanity.

You know Moochie now that I think about it you do have a very good point, not the part about caring less about a thousand foot tower, but about needing to increase urbanity. I would love to see a 1200' tower built in dt. But I guess I would like to see our pathetic 2,300 people per sq. mi. increase more. I think the amount of space available to build on being a factor in high-rise development is a fair assumption, but not necessarily the biggest reason.

Currently, the only significant tax is on an improvement, not the land. Most empty lots downtown pay less than $1,000 a half for the land, since there is no improvement. The best way to encourage density is to place a fair market tax on the land. Otherwise, there is no incentive to build. And your not going to build a two or three story building if your rent can't cover the land taxes. A downtown parking lot is one of the most lucrative businesses to have. I wonder what the land/improvement taxation is in other cities?

I would like to see our pathetic 2,300 people per sq. mi. increase more.

The one positive about our density is that Center Township is still almost twice as dense as the county. Center Township density has been declining since 1950. The latest influx of downtown residents might be enough to stabilize the decline. We would have to add about 170,000 people to reach our 1950 density.

2000 Center Township density is 3903 people/sq. mi.
1950 Center Township density was 7879 people/sq. mi.

Historical Marion County Population Figures (http://www.indygov.org/eGov/City/DMD/Planning/Stats/Census/hist_population.htm)

In regards to high-rise condo towers for Indy. Downtown Indy has a good problem. A good - problem you say? Yes, it's a good thing to have for your downtown's continued vitality and growth, but it is a problem if you want high-rise condos.

A) Even in cities where the downtown area isn't as nice as Indy's people still want to live downtown because it's the heart of it all, and even when it isn't the heart of it all, it is still the most convenient place to reach all sides of town.

and...

B) Most people would rather not live in a high-rise because of the perceived dangers (fire, tornadoes, earthquakes, terrorism, etc...)

but...

C) Damn few of our peers have downtowns as clean and safe as Indy's.

If a developer is going to spend one to two hundred million dollars building a high-rise then they'll have to sell the units for at least $800,000 a piece, and in other downtowns the wealthy people that can afford that price are more than happy to fork it over and *gulp* live in a high-rise in order to put a couple hundred feet between themselves and the "evil and sin" that lurks on the street, and to get the added benefit of a guarded lobby.

However, in Indy the wealthy don't have to live in a risky high-rise to escape the muggers, rapists, gang members, druggies and hookers. The wealthy Indy people can live in a nice townhouse safely on the ground. That's why it's so expensive to buy a little rowhouse condo downtown and why I should have sunk a couple thousand dollars in some abandoned units downtown fifteen years ago - I would have made millions.

If you don't have any reason to put your butt a couple hundred off of the ground then why do it? I know why we'd do it, but I'm talking about normal people.

Eventually we're going to run out of land downtown and be forced to build taller thereby forcing anyone wanting to live downtown to buy a condo in a high-rise. But until that time arrives, in twenty or thirty years, I don't see a way to change this trend. Maybe we can hire gangs of thugs to roam Chatham Arch and Lockerbie Square, and drop syringe needles and used condoms all over the place while harrassing the public! :D :D

I would like to see a thousand footer compliment the skyline. But as Moochie pointed out I would much rather see six or seven midrises to "fill in" the skyline and add density. Its true that our downtown is booming with condos and such but we arent going to please everyone at the same time in terms of what people want. I think eventually when all the holes are filled out our downtown will look completely different in 10-15 years. Eventually I hope we will reach 8,000/sq. mi. density here in Center Twp. again within the next 25 or so years. Actually Center Township has grown these last few years with gentrification and the influx of downtown residents, which is always great news.

well, a lot of downtowns that are seeing an influx of new residential has that development occuring just in the core...not too many have developments like Fall Creek Place right outside of downtown that has the opportunity for 1000+ single family dwellings. Also, I think that OMS has also just had issues from the beginning. If there had been public money behind it, it would already be up. There is certain to be public money behind Signature in Nasville...are they building a new billion $ stadium/conention center? And Finally, cities like Nashville and Charlotte don't have the number of what I would call midrise apartment buildings like Indy has. We have quite a few options in this city to live in a "building."

Hey, I found this article on Indystar about new development in the malls.

Open-air shops to replace Ayres
Greenwood, Castleton malls joining a retail trend
By Madhusmita Bora

May 2, 2006


Bookstores, restaurants and small specialty stores will replace the venerated L.S. Ayres Department stores in two Indianapolis-area malls.
The changes would give both malls a different look and feel.
Mall owner Simon Property Group announced late Monday that it will demolish the former Ayres buildings at the Greenwood Park and Castleton Square malls. The new tenants will operate in an open-air environment, but the stores will connect to the malls through entrances. Simon has yet to name the new tenants.
The Castleton location also will get a movie theater.
"We just felt that there were a number of retailers, restaurants, bookstores and movie theaters that could have significant impact on these properties and make them more attractive to shoppers," said Richard Sokolov, Simon president and chief operating officer.
Experts applauded the move.
"In the long run, this is good for both shopping centers," said Eric Hillenbrand, a retail broker with Colliers Turley Martin Tucker. "It gives a new twist to the shopping centers by incorporating something that's fresh and new, which in turn will drive more traffic."
Simon bought the two Ayres buildings, along with five others nationwide, from Federated Department Stores, the Indianapolis-based company said Monday. The financial terms were not disclosed.
The buildings are part of 21 properties nationwide that lost anchors because of the merger between Federated and former Ayres owner May Department Stores Co. Federated bought May for $11 billion last year. The company decided to replace all former May Co. stores with the Macy's and Bloomingdale's brands. Federated also decided to close competing locations within the same mall.
For Hoosiers, that meant bidding goodbye to a homegrown brand that was a shopping destination for generations.
For Simon it meant dealing with holes a big as 207,000 square feet at premier properties such as Castleton Square. As of Monday, the company had definite plans for 15 of the 21 affected properties.
And they are mimicking what many mall developers are doing these days: steering away from traditional anchors such as department stores, while wooing tenants that offer a lifestyle such as Landmark Theatres, P.F. Chang's or Tommy Bahama. Consumers, too, are warming up to the changes, experts said. They like a center where they can shop, eat and play.
"Restaurants and theaters are part of the mall-mix gathering steam since the late 1990s, allowing malls to open up to a whole new set of consumers," said Patrice Duker, spokeswoman for the International Council of Shopping Centers, an industry trade group.
The open-air centers are performing better than the older, giant enclosed malls, Hillenbrand said.
Simon officials said they don't have definite tenants lined up for the locations. But they will move fast on their plans.
"We would hope to have these properties under construction this year with openings in fall of next year," Sokolov said. "That is our goal. It remains to be seen whether we can pull that off."
Tenants such as Man Alive, a hip-hop clothing and accessories chain, like hearing that.
"Movie theaters have worked at other malls, and it might work here," said Kandice Moss, manager at Man Alive in Castleton.
The store is a neighbor to the now-vacant L.S. Ayres spot, and Moss said that business in that corner slowed down since Ayres closed in March.
"This will bring business up and give people a reason to come back to the end of this mall," Moss said. "It's a pretty good thing."

What do you guys think this will do for the malls? Good or bad? I think it will be good in most aspects, especially since Greenwood was an open air mall 30 years ago.

I dont know yet if they have plans for the Ayres store at Lafayette Square.

Too bad Simon couldn't fill the Castleton space with a Neiman Marcus or Nordstrom. It was worth having the rumor out there though just for the fact that it got gych's panties in a bunch.

Too bad Simon couldn't fill the Castleton space with a Neiman Marcus or Nordstrom. It was worth having the rumor out there though just for the fact that it got gych's panties in a bunch.
:rofl:

FedEx growth to bring 800 jobs

FedEx Corp. announced today it plans a $200 million expansion at Indianapolis International that will create up to 800 new jobs, boosting its ranks to nearly 5,000 people.

http://cmsimg.indystar.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=BG&Date=20060504&Category=NEWS01&ArtNo=60504012&Ref=AR&MaxW=200&Q=60&Border=0
FedEx's $200 million expansion project at Indianapolis International Airport is expected to be finished in 2008. It will be the company's second-largest domestic hub. - Danese Kenon / 2006 file photo


The plan includes construction of as many as 14 new gates at the airport over the next couple of years.
Lacy Johnson, the president of the board that oversees the airport, said the package delivery giant will put in around $164 million toward the expansion and that the airport authority is contributing about $50 million.

However, no tax dollars will go toward the expansion. Airport fees will pay for the city’s share of the expansion costs. A city spokesman said lease payments on the new gates will, over time, cover the city’s share of the project.

FedEx needs the space to meet projected long-term growth, particularly for international shipments. FedEx operates international flights from Indianapolis to Europe, Asia and Canada.

As part of its plans, FedEx will build a 400,000-square-foot expansion to its existing cargo sorting facility and build a new 175,000 square-foot secondary sorting building. Two maintenance buildings — including a 40,000-square-foot facility for aircraft maintenance and an 8,000-square-foot facility for ground support equipment — also will be built. In all, its Indianapolis presence will grow by 600,000 square feet. Construction is expected to begin soon and the expanded system is expected to be operational by December 2008.

Indiana sports Corp. annual meeting
Stadium work presents problem
Construction, other factors hurt ISC in its attempts to lure Olympic events in '08

In the long term, Lucas Oil Stadium could enhance Indianapolis' ability to lure major sports events.


In the short term, construction of the Indianapolis Colts' stadium inhibits efforts by the Indiana Sports Corp. to bring a U.S. Olympic trials to the city in 2008.
The Indiana Pacers' schedule isn't helping, either.
Because of strong attendance at the Visa Championships last August, Indianapolis positioned itself as a contender to hold the Olympic gymnastics trials.
However, the gymnastics dates are June 19-22, 2008. Conseco Fieldhouse can't be used because of a possible conflict if the Pacers reach the NBA Finals, according to Allison Melangton, senior vice president of the ISC. And Lucas Oil Stadium still will be under construction.
Indianapolis was awarded the 2008 wrestling trials but had to turn down that selection, Melangton said. The RCA Dome, site of the 2004 wrestling trials, will be torn down and Lucas Oil Stadium won't be ready.
"Good problem to have, because we're going to have the best venue in the country when it's all said and done," ISC president Susan Williams said.
Indianapolis has had a U.S. Olympic trials in at least one sport in each Olympic year since 1984. ISC leaders said they would try for a trials in 2008, with possibilities in diving, boxing, weightlifting or triathlon.
Diving trials were at the Natatorium at IUPUI in 1984, '88, '92 and '96. USA Diving's headquarters and national training center are in Indianapolis.
During the ISC's annual meeting Wednesday at the Conrad Hotel, new chairman Tom King called the ISC's franchise "every bit as valuable" as the Colts and Pacers.
"Indianapolis is branded, nationally and internationally, as a city that can get things done," King said.
The ISC is restructuring its business model "to ensure its permanence," he said.
Williams said the ISC's challenges are no different from that of any other not-for-profit organization. She also said the ISC is expanding youth programs to address Indiana's "sad rankings" in fitness.
Myles Brand, president of the NCAA, told ISC members that Indianapolis continues to be seen as the national leader in organizing events such as the men's basketball Final Four. The NCAA has a memorandum of understanding to bring major events to the city regularly through 2039.
"This city can do it," Brand said. "I don't think any other city can."
Bob Kennedy, the recently retired distance runner, said the sales goal for corporate ticket packages has been met for the U.S. Track and Field Championships. He is co-chairman of the organizing committee for the June 21-25 nationals at IUPUI's Carroll Stadium.

Glad to see FedEx expansion here.

Too bad Simon couldn't fill the Castleton space with a Neiman Marcus or Nordstrom. It was worth having the rumor out there though just for the fact that it got gych's panties in a bunch.
I miss Gych

A couple of weeks ago we discussed creating a urban development organization/association and I have not seen anymore discussion on it since then. Did everyone not like the idea, or not willing to go ahead with it? I think me and Naptown were rather eager to do something like this. ???????????????????????????????????????

I'm interested in organizing if (a. There will be alcohol served at our meetings, and (b. by participating, my opportunity to have sex with women drastically increases. I'm morally opposed to joining any organization that doesn't promote and accomodate both a and b.

Come to think of it, are there any women on SSC?

I believe that sex and alcohol are the cause of, and answer to, all of my problems. That being said, I don't think there are any women on SSC.

^^^^There are but I have only seen them in international forums...We seriously need some girls from Indianapolis to start posting, it is rather sad. The alcohol can be arranged but I dont know bout the chicks, sorry, lol

Good to see they've chosen someone local. Anyone know what this work looks like? I can't remember.

May 5, 2006
Indy artist wins airport commission

Indianapolis artist Greg Hull has been commissioned by the Indianapolis Airport Authority to create a sculpture for the parking garage at the new terminal.

The Herron School of Art assistant professor's "Breath" sculpture will have 11 forms arcing through the air in the garage's five-story atrium

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060505/NEWS01/60505032

Okay, I'm familiar with his work. I think he's got a workshop in the Chatham Arch area. I saw some of these in various states of construction. I think it looks great on display. I love kinetic sculpture.

http://www.indymoca.org/public/index.asp?pg=events&ev=orchid

Anyone have any idea What his airport sculpture will look like? I kind of hope not more of the same.

From doing a little research, "Breath" appears to be an homage, or a variation on his 1998 work that inspired the red umbrellas "breathing" as a part of the Conrad topping off ceremony. I can't wait to see the finished product. I hope it's very permanent looking. It could be spectacular if done well.

Indiana firms bid for convention center project
May 5, 2006 05:05 PM EST

Indianapolis - Dozens of companies from across the nation want to help build the $275 million addition to the Indiana Convention Center. Eyewitness News and our partners at the Indianapolis Star obtained a list of companies putting their name in the hat. They're part of a huge bidding battle to tear down the RCA dome and change the face of downtown Indianapolis.

With construction of the stadium well underway, attention now turns to expanding the convention center where the Dome now sits. The first step will be hiring architects and engineers.

Project Director John Klipsch says 60 firms applied for the job with all but nine from Indiana. One of them is Wayne Schmidt, who sees the high-profile project as a great opportunity.

"Downtown is certainly in a growth mode right now and people are coming from all over the country and we've got us a chance to make a really strong statement about our city," said Schmidt, with Schmidt Associates.

Budgeted at $275 million, plans are to nearly double the size of the current facility. "The right amount of exhibit space, the right amount of ballroom and meeting space, the quality of the finishes, how it looks and how it feels - All those things all important to its ultimate success," said Bob Bedell, Indiana Convention and Visitors Association.

Klipsch says the stadium authority wants firms with experience in urban projects, public projects and complicated ones, which this one is. It's surrounded by railroad tracks on one side and the convention center on two other sides.

"So there's only one access in and out and that's Capitol and that's a major thoroughfare so this makes it a tight, complicated project site," said Klipsch.

It also needs a stadium connection. Klipsch says right now plans call for a tunnel under South Street, but whether it connects to another tunnel or a bridge is up to the designers.

Interestingly, HKS, which designed the stadium, didn't bid for the expansion. Klipsch says the goal is to spread things around. Schmidt, who would have loved a shot at the stadium, says he never had the chance.

"I'm not aware of what the process was on the stadium and this time it's more normal about the process of submittals," he said.


source:www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=4867016

I'm visiting Indianapolis in a few weeks. I was last there in 1993. Other than stadiums, have any new buildings been built in the downtown since then? If so, does anyone have photos?

Thanks

Good to see they've chosen someone local. Anyone know what this work looks like? I can't remember.

May 5, 2006
Indy artist wins airport commission

Indianapolis artist Greg Hull has been commissioned by the Indianapolis Airport Authority to create a sculpture for the parking garage at the new terminal.

The Herron School of Art assistant professor's "Breath" sculpture will have 11 forms arcing through the air in the garage's five-story atrium

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060505/NEWS01/60505032

Article in the Star with picture: http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060506/NEWS01/605060489

Article in the Star with picture: http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060506/NEWS01/605060489
Perfect, it's exactly what I was hoping it would be. Now that's memorable. I can't wait to see the big sculpture out front. I hope it's kinetic as well.

Does anybody know when the city will announce which convention center hotel has been chosen?

Lawrence aims to retool base into city center
Land freed up when Fort Benjamin Harrison closed will be used to create a new downtown

By Andy Gammill
andy.gammill@indystar.com

Barb True has lived in Lawrence for 50 years, and in that time the city has never had a central congregating place, a downtown of its own.

That may soon change.

Land freed up by the closing of Fort Benjamin Harrison and laws allowing a tight rein on development there will give the city a chance to develop a half-square-mile of land into a new "village center" under a plan that could be under way as early as next year.
True and other residents say the new development off 56th Street will forge a common ground for residents.

"I think it's great, keeping it old, the older feel of buildings and shops, bringing families together, making it more community-oriented," she said. "I think it will bring businesses into the area that we need."

Mayor Deborah Cantwell said that the city government itself will have only a minor role and that the Fort Harrison Reuse Authority, working with private developers, will take the lead. But she said her office wants the effort to succeed.

Cantwell said the project, which will focus on 56th Street between Post Road and Lee Road and extend as far north as 59th Street, will unite the three historical sections of Lawrence: old Oaklandon, old Lawrence along 46th Street and the former fort.
"The new village center will give us an opportunity to bring everything together, kind of a rebirth," Cantwell said. "It's about unheard of that a city gets to build a new city center. Most of your older cities already have a town square."

Central Indiana cities from Carmel to Greenwood have put a new emphasis on developing city centers in recent years to help them stand out from other Indianapolis suburbs. Planners for the Fort Harrison Reuse Authority say their project won't be like projects in other cities in the area.

The authority wants to tap into Fort Benjamin Harrison's rich history. They want to use the reuse authority's architectural review powers to enforce standards. They want a mix of homes, restaurants, retail shops and office space.

The plans, released last month, incorporate green space and parks along old-fashioned streets with building fronts along the sidewalk and parking in the back. Access to the nearby state park, YMCA and Ivy Tech Community College are worked into the plan.
Adam Thies, a consultant hired to help design the project, said the history of the area would be a key to the architecture and the design of the new neighborhood.
"What makes this unusual is that it used to be a military base," he said. "It will be a place where people are living, working, playing in an environment where people are engaged in everyday life."

The new plans call for focusing initially on the area of the old fort that contains the PX and commissary, which are being relocated elsewhere in the area.
Officials hope to have private developers come back with proposals that would include something that could become identified as a city center, such as a fountain or a public library.

Ehren Bingaman, director of the reuse authority, said that there are some private owners in the development area but that the amount of publicly owned land creates an opportunity few other cities have gotten.

"I don't think you're going to find many 100-year-old communities given a shot to re-create its core," he said.

Mark Rumreich, who lives in Lawrence on Indian Lake about a mile north of the proposed downtown, said he's excited by the plans for a village center.
He's enthused about the possibility of a new community pool or library or amenities such as a post office and shops.

"They want to make this a destination," he said. "It's long overdue in my opinion. The types of shops they're talking about, it would be just one more thing that would attract people from within the area and outside the area."

Call Star reporter Andy Gammill at (317) 444-2607.

Copyright 2006 IndyStar.com. All rights reserved

http://cmsimg.indystar.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Dato=20060508&Kategori=NEWS01&Lopenr=605080413&Ref=AR&Q=80&MaxW=500&MaxH=400&Site=BG&Q=80&Border=0&Title=0

http://www.fhra.org/images/fbmap.gif

http://www.fhra.org/

Looks like Lawrence will have its own Gateway Arch according to the picture :)

New Downtown condo project breaks ground

Developers are breaking ground today on a $25 million, 100-unit condominium project between Lockerbie Square and the Massachussets Avenue Arts District.

The condos in brownstone buildings called Lockerbie Park Plaza and Lockerbie Park Brownstones will be priced between $200,000 and $500,000, and will be completed beginning in early 2007.

The developers, Hearthview Residential and Dinmont Development, both have experience in the Downtown condo market.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060509/BUSINESS/60509015

Just checked Hearthview's webpage and it looks like they've divided the Lockerbie Park project down to Lockerbie Park Plaza and Lockerbie Park Brownstones:

http://www.hearthview.com/index.asp?action=properties&id=3&propertyName=Lockerbie%20Park

What little I can see of the Plaza building, I think it looks pretty friggin cool. I'm a bit more disappointed with the Brownstones, particularly the decision to put them on College between that abandoned church and the plaza building. Seems like they missed an opportunity to have greater height. Being directly south of Real Silk and Mill No. 9, they could have easily justified 5 stories, not to mention the retail possibility on College.

Even if you take away those missed opportunities, imagine how College will appear looking south from hulking Mill No. 9, to a church with a tall spire, then two story brownstones and back up to 4 stories for the Plaza building. I don't understand the logic.

New Downtown condo project breaks ground

Developers are breaking ground today on a $25 million, 100-unit condominium project between Lockerbie Square and the Massachussets Avenue Arts District.

The condos in brownstone buildings called Lockerbie Park Plaza and Lockerbie Park Brownstones will be priced between $200,000 and $500,000, and will be completed beginning in early 2007.

The developers, Hearthview Residential and Dinmont Development, both have experience in the Downtown condo market.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060509/BUSINESS/60509015

I was disappointed when I saw this headline, and and realized that this wasn't One Market Square. Why is it so easy to break ground on 100 unit condo complexes everywhere in Indy, but a 200+ unit complex in the most prime urban space available faces years of delays? The Market Square Arena site has been mismanaged from day one.

I was disappointed when I saw this headline, and and realized that this wasn't One Market Square. Why is it so easy to break ground on 100 unit condo complexes everywhere in Indy, but a 200+ unit complex in the most prime urban space available faces years of delays? The Market Square Arena site has been mismanaged from day one.

Moochie...exactly! Indy's downtown condo market is stronger than it was way back when OMS was announced and yet we still have a gravel lot. This certainly illustrates that the developers didn't know what to do from day one. Obviously the redesign helped as just about every newspaper stand has an add for the project that says "going up, ground breaking this summer." I hope it does well, because I would love to see a residential highrise on one of the lots around AUL.

I finally got around to taking my bike out for the first time this year and went and checked out all of the developments. Boy, downtown just keeps growing and growing and growing. The Lockerbie project on New York next to Amici's is coming along nicely. Also, the Villaggio definitely has a prominent sport on the soutside of the skyline....especially from Fountain Sqaure. Has anyone noticed that there is a new project going in on East Street north of this site? It is just south of the East Street viaduct on the east side of the road across from Anthem. I have been told it is to be a 3-story APARTMENT building that will include a Starbucks.

I was disappointed when I saw this headline, and and realized that this wasn't One Market Square. Why is it so easy to break ground on 100 unit condo complexes everywhere in Indy, but a 200+ unit complex in the most prime urban space available faces years of delays? The Market Square Arena site has been mismanaged from day one.

I agree, from every indication, the project has been terribly mismanaged. The city needs to stop with the extensions and award the project to another team of developers if the latest deadline is not met. Locally based Flaherty & Collins (They are constructing the 53 story 210 Trade condo tower in Charlotte) would be a good choice to take over the project.

I think that with the right developers, we could sell just about any type of housing development here in the city, Why wouldnt we be able to? And all of the other major housing projects as of late have really taken off, all except for OMS of course.

And we all know what happens when you fuck around on a project: you get fired. This is particularly evident with the Central Library Expansion. (Not all of it was their fault, though.)

not a true urban project but i posted just in case anyone is interested:

TWO FIRMS TO DEVELOP MIXED-USE PROJECT ALONG MERIDIAN
Belle Meade Manor, a 30-year-old apartment complex near 96th and Meridian streets, is being demolished and will be turned into a mixed-use residential and commercial project by two local developers. Landmark Properties Inc. plans to build retail, office or possibly a hotel on part of the land. Buckingham Cos. is developing a roughly 100-unit townhome complex for California-based Ryland Homes on the balance of the property.

the rest of the article on: http://64.255.242.145/ibjdaily/html/daily_story_050906_3.html

by the way, the 'midtown' meridian redevelopment project will have public input. anyone think they would like to participate?

Has anyone noticed that there is a new project going in on East Street north of this site? It is just south of the East Street viaduct on the east side of the road across from Anthem. I have been told it is to be a 3-story APARTMENT building that will include a Starbucks.

I found more info on the project on the indydt website:

Project: The Waverly at 151 S. East
Location: 151 S. East St.
Units: 160 Apartments & Retail space
Price: TBD
Opening Date: 2Q/2007
Description: 160 luxury residences and up to 6,000 sq. ft. of retail planned for former Ermco Electric site.
For more information: The J.C Hart Company, Mark Juleen, 317.573.4820


There are quite a few projects on that website I had no idea about. Here is a link..
http://www.indydt.com/newresprojects.html

All the development on the Northeastside of downtown is great...
http://www.indydt.com/images/resprojectmap20061.gif

here are quite a few projects on that website I had no idea about.
I've always been very impressed by how well Indianapolis Downtown Inc. maintains that webpage. It's a real testament to both their influence on downtown development and their internal organization. Personally, I'm curious about this development:

http://www.indydt.com/weststcondos.html

My former landlord, when I lived in Ransom Place, owns a house almost exactly at the intersection of 11th and MLK. I wonder what his thoughts are about this development. I know he was seriously pissed when the Clarian and IU buildings started going up at the top of the canal, ruining his view of the downtown skyline.

I found more info on the project on the indydt website:

Project: The Waverly at 151 S. East
Location: 151 S. East St.
Units: 160 Apartments & Retail space
Price: TBD
Opening Date: 2Q/2007
Description: 160 luxury residences and up to 6,000 sq. ft. of retail planned for former Ermco Electric site.
For more information: The J.C Hart Company, Mark Juleen, 317.573.4820


There are quite a few projects on that website I had no idea about. Here is a link..
http://www.indydt.com/newresprojects.html

All the development on the Northeastside of downtown is great...
http://www.indydt.com/images/resprojectmap20061.gif

This one is new one on me...

Project: The Maxwell
Location: 530 E. Ohio St.
Units: 125-150 Condominiums
Purchase Price: TBD
Opening Date: TBD
Description: TBD
For more information: Kosene & Kosene Development & Mgmt. Co.,

150 condos? That's just a block East of the Hudson and One Market Square... Man.. When the market street ramp comes down (and OMS goes up) this coming winter, the Eastside of downtown is just going to fricking explode... Maybe we'll start to see some real urbanity around here soon...

This one is new one on me...

Project: The Maxwell
Location: 530 E. Ohio St.
Units: 125-150 Condominiums
Purchase Price: TBD
Opening Date: TBD
Description: TBD
For more information: Kosene & Kosene Development & Mgmt. Co.,

150 condos? That's just a block East of the Hudson and One Market Square... Man.. When the market street ramp comes down (and OMS goes up) this coming winter, the Eastside of downtown is just going to fricking explode... Maybe we'll start to see some real urbanity around here soon...

It sure seems that Kosene and Kosene is cornering the market around the Market street ramp.. I wonder if they have plans to expand more in the area.

http://www.koseneandkosene.com/map/downtown.shtml#
http://www.koseneandkosene.com/map/images/map2.gif
Anone know how many units the Packard has?

This one is new one on me...

Project: The Maxwell
Location: 530 E. Ohio St.
Units: 125-150 Condominiums
Purchase Price: TBD
Opening Date: TBD
Description: TBD
For more information: Kosene & Kosene Development & Mgmt. Co.,

150 condos? That's just a block East of the Hudson and One Market Square... Man.. When the market street ramp comes down (and OMS goes up) this coming winter, the Eastside of downtown is just going to fricking explode... Maybe we'll start to see some real urbanity around here soon...
Right. That ramp is a fucking eyesore.

Ok, so the height discrepancy on College doesn't seem to be as big a deal as I thought. I still don't understand why they didn't put some retail in that space, though:
http://www.hearthview.com/images/PropertyPhotos/1111HR_0001.jpg

Brownstones:
http://www.hearthview.com/images/PropertyPhotos/1111HR_0002.jpg

http://www.hearthview.com/images/PropertyPhotos/1111CAM1_0240.jpg

http://www.hearthview.com/images/PropertyPhotos/1111HR_0000.jpg

Interesting that they're showing College as a two-way with cars going the "wrong way" as it is now. Was the person doing the rendering not aware that College is one-way north or is it going to be changed?

Ok, so the height discrepancy on College doesn't seem to be as big a deal as I thought. I still don't understand why they didn't put some retail in that space, though:
http://www.hearthview.com/images/PropertyPhotos/1111HR_0001.jpg

Brownstones:
http://www.hearthview.com/images/PropertyPhotos/1111HR_0002.jpg

http://www.hearthview.com/images/PropertyPhotos/1111CAM1_0240.jpg

http://www.hearthview.com/images/PropertyPhotos/1111HR_0000.jpg


These are very nice, attractive homes. I could definitely see myself living in one of these homes...maybe in ten years?

This one is new one on me...

Project: The Maxwell
Location: 530 E. Ohio St.
Units: 125-150 Condominiums
Purchase Price: TBD
Opening Date: TBD
Description: TBD
For more information: Kosene & Kosene Development & Mgmt. Co.,

150 condos? That's just a block East of the Hudson and One Market Square... Man.. When the market street ramp comes down (and OMS goes up) this coming winter, the Eastside of downtown is just going to fricking explode... Maybe we'll start to see some real urbanity around here soon...


Yes, this has been planned for a couple of years. This project will front Ohio Street and will be hind the development that is going in next to Amici's. There is a building there now and once the Amici's project is completed, they will begin the Maxwell. Again, numerous projects going in with 100-200 units, all sell-out quickly, yet OMS is a gravel lot! What gives?

Yes, this has been planned for a couple of years. This project will front Ohio Street and will be hind the development that is going in next to Amici's. There is a building there now and once the Amici's project is completed, they will begin the Maxwell. Again, numerous projects going in with 100-200 units, all sell-out quickly, yet OMS is a gravel lot! What gives?
Maybe they should have just handed the entire project over to Kosene and told them they could do what they wanted as long as they put ina a couple 30+ story towers. Kosene would have sold them out in about a week apparently.

Yes, this has been planned for a couple of years. This project will front Ohio Street and will be hind the development that is going in next to Amici's. There is a building there now and once the Amici's project is completed, they will begin the Maxwell. Again, numerous projects going in with 100-200 units, all sell-out quickly, yet OMS is a gravel lot! What gives?
Maybe they should have just handed the entire project over to Kosene and told them they could do what they wanted as long as they put in a a couple 30+ story towers. Kosene would have sold them out in about a week apparently.

I was disappointed when I saw this headline, and and realized that this wasn't One Market Square. Why is it so easy to break ground on 100 unit condo complexes everywhere in Indy, but a 200+ unit complex in the most prime urban space available faces years of delays? The Market Square Arena site has been mismanaged from day one.

I think that with the right developers, we could sell just about any type of housing development here in the city, Why wouldnt we be able to? And all of the other major housing projects as of late have really taken off, all except for OMS of course.

How high are all of these condos and townhouses that are selling out so fast? And how high is the One market Square project?

Again, I refer to my reply in post number 108. Most people will avoid the perceived dangers of high-rise living if they can. And with the numerous beautiful condo and townhouse projects in downtown Indy and with the safe and clean nature of downtown streets, people don't need to put their butts a couple hundred feet off of the ground.

Yes, this has been planned for a couple of years. This project will front Ohio Street and will be hind the development that is going in next to Amici's. There is a building there now and once the Amici's project is completed, they will begin the Maxwell. Again, numerous projects going in with 100-200 units, all sell-out quickly, yet OMS is a gravel lot! What gives?

cwilson, do you think Kosene has the design finalized? Although their developments are nice, I am not a big fan of their designs because they don't have enough character for my taste--altering units could be setback from the adjacent units, use a vareity of brick shades, etc.

humblehoosier, i agree with moochie's view that with so many delays, redesigns, and no physical bldg to ooh and ahh over, it is a hard sell. once they build it...things could change.

there are many ways to structure loans and I'm surprsied they did not build it first and then sell it...as some have been done in other cities. maybe it has something to do with the builder's history of high rises in the city. who knows...

everyone be patient, August is around the corner. (I can't believe it's May already!)

what is that yellowish material on Lockerbie Square? I hope it's not going to really look like that.

How high are all of these condos and townhouses that are selling out so fast? And how high is the One market Square project?

Again, I refer to my reply in post number 108. Most people will avoid the perceived dangers of high-rise living if they can. And with the numerous beautiful condo and townhouse projects in downtown Indy and with the safe and clean nature of downtown streets, people don't need to put their butts a couple hundred feet off of the ground.
Most of Kosene's projects are 2 to 4 stories.

I'm not sure I agree with the fear theory. Other tall residential towers like Riley Towers, 30 stories and 300 foot tall, are filled to the max all the time. In fact, the higher units are more popular than the lower units. The Conrad's 200-250 foot high condos sold in a heartbeat. 110 East Washington, 200 foot tall, also sold out before most people knew it even existed. I could go on.

I think that it has more to do with competition. Why buy into a tower that may or may not be built in a couple/few years when there are dozens or hundreds of very attractive alternatives available essentially immediately? Ask around, not many people "on the street" in Indy believe that OMS will be built anymore. That perception of failure is driving buyers away.

However, I don't think anyone would deny that if the towers existed right now they would sell out very quickly.

My guess is that the mayor and the people in power know this, and have convinced a financier somewhere to buy out the remaining units needed for financing, for the purpose of reselling in the future. There is too much to be lost politically to allow OMS to fail at this point. This type of arrangement isn't unusual. I was reading the Fordham Spire thread, and apparently there are back up plans for financiers to buy up the majority of the units if initial sales don't meet their quotas.

I walkd the dog down by the OMS sales office last night, and I noticed that even the remaining parts of the sales center are being re-arranged or are being shut down... I wonder if Flock has been given the heave-ho.

what is that yellowish material on Lockerbie Square? I hope it's not going to really look like that.

My guess it's going to be more like the stone that's on the Packard currently. It's yellow, but quite a bit more subdued than in those pics. You can poke around here http://www.koseneandkosene.com/packard/index.shtml and get a look at it, or just check out the project the next time you're downtown. It looks like it's a stucco or perhaps a fiber cement meant to look like stucco or masonry.

a while back some of you were talking about the bldg referenced in the following IBJ article:

Three bids submitted for IPS property swap
Three local developers have submitted bids for the 75-year-old Art Deco Coca-Cola building and the six acres it sits on at the east end of Massachusetts Avenue. The property is owned by Indianapolis Public Schools, which said in September it wanted to make a swap for the building rather than sell it outright. The three bids came from Kite Realty Group Trust, Browning Investments Inc. and College Flats LLC. The latter is a partnership between Riley Area Development Corp., a local community development corporation, and California-based Panatonni Development Co. IPS' request for proposals requires a replacement location where the school system can move its central transportation facility and other operations. IPS has said it would make a decision in mid-June, which could include rejecting all three offers.

Most of Kosene's projects are 2 to 4 stories.

I'm not sure I agree with the fear theory. Other tall residential towers like Riley Towers, 30 stories and 300 foot tall, are filled to the max all the time. In fact, the higher units are more popular than the lower units. The Conrad's 200-250 foot high condos sold in a heartbeat. 110 East Washington, 200 foot tall, also sold out before most people knew it even existed. I could go on.

I think that it has more to do with competition. Why buy into a tower that may or may not be built in a couple/few years when there are dozens or hundreds of very attractive alternatives available essentially immediately? Ask around, not many people "on the street" in Indy believe that OMS will be built anymore. That perception of failure is driving buyers away.

However, I don't think anyone would deny that if the towers existed right now they would sell out very quickly.

My guess is that the mayor and the people in power know this, and have convinced a financier somewhere to buy out the remaining units needed for financing, for the purpose of reselling in the future. There is too much to be lost politically to allow OMS to fail at this point. This type of arrangement isn't unusual. I was reading the Fordham Spire thread, and apparently there are back up plans for financiers to buy up the majority of the units if initial sales don't meet their quotas.



I have thought all along that if the Tower would just go up, it would sell out instantly.

Moochie-I agree with your assessment...something has happened in a "backroom meeting" in order for this project to happen. I find it odd that just 2 days after sales of the midrise section, the project has sold enough to begin construction in August?? Hmmm?

I agree that this project is too high profile for the mayor to allow it to "not happen." I figured that the City probably chipped in some money. I mean, they gave th Conrad $25 million for tat project, I can certainly see justification in a 300+ unit condo tower having public money if it means having a 24-hour downtown. Also, Riley Towers were built with public money.

a while back some of you were talking about the bldg referenced in the following IBJ article:

Three bids submitted for IPS property swap
Three local developers have submitted bids for the 75-year-old Art Deco Coca-Cola building and the six acres it sits on at the east end of Massachusetts Avenue. The property is owned by Indianapolis Public Schools, which said in September it wanted to make a swap for the building rather than sell it outright. The three bids came from Kite Realty Group Trust, Browning Investments Inc. and College Flats LLC. The latter is a partnership between Riley Area Development Corp., a local community development corporation, and California-based Panatonni Development Co. IPS' request for proposals requires a replacement location where the school system can move its central transportation facility and other operations. IPS has said it would make a decision in mid-June, which could include rejecting all three offers.

Hmm...I believe the developer who was looking at a Target for this site coupled with studio and condo space isn't included. If I am correct, Hearthview (Athletic Club) is the one who was throwing that idea around...DAMN!

cwilson, don't fret...that idea is probably also on the minds of the developers that submitted bids.

is that bldg in a historic preserv. zone?

cwilson, don't fret...that idea is probably also on the minds of the developers that submitted bids.

is that bldg in a historic preserv. zone?

It's not in the currently defined boundaries of Chatham Arch Historic District:

http://www.indygov.org/NR/rdonlyres/epbmsoxaomgmwgclce325u5isp3gjvxqaqix6jnfqfwidf3ccscxnbotkjkmi44ftek2lgmes7tzzk7xy4aqteb4gxc/chathamarchmap.jpg

However, there's a new draft of the Chatham Arch Historic District preservation plan that's going to be discussed at a public meeting on June 7th. Among other things, they're going to expand the border of the preservation zone to include this area of Mass. Ave.

http://www.indygov.org/NR/rdonlyres/ealwdmqpa4hzvhiwdgb6kk2e3ui7safjplhycde2hibbozvf2xn5y7xojraydeuv7h5r4obpfrr3paaywwvmfsshb5g/CAMAmap.pdf

thanks CorrND! I think I would rather see something contemporary but of course fits in to the area.

Hey everyone, I've been lurking for a little while and finally decided to join in the conversation. I live downtown and love our downtown.

Moochie, to answer your question on the number of units in the Packard it's 72. According to what I've heard, the Maxwell is going to be 7 stories with retail on the bottom floor.

Hey everyone, I've been lurking for a little while and finally decided to join in the conversation. I live downtown and love our downtown.

Moochie, to answer your question on the number of units in the Packard it's 72. According to what I've heard, the Maxwell is going to be 7 stories with retail on the bottom floor.
Howdy neighbor, we probably live just a few blocks apart.

Good to hear about the Maxwell. that's really what is realistic for the Eastside about now, and the retail element is crucial for urbanity. Hopefully this is an indicator of what's to come as available development space fills in and the need to build tall increases, We especially need taller residential buildings with ground level retail along Market street and the surrounding blocks after the ramp comes down.

Mass. Ave. enjoys development boom

Indianapolis - Things are looking up for Massachusetts Avenue. At a meeting of business owners and residents Wednesday morning, all eyes were on the future.

The six-block arts district on Mass. Ave. is considered one of the city's cultural gems. "We have evolved every year, and now it's a place to come, and it's a great place to live, and a great place to play and a great place to go to church," said Bill Gray, Riley Area Development Corporation.

Years after a group of citizens set out to change the once run-down street, performing arts theatres, art galleries and independently-owned restaurants line the length of the avenue. Historic buildings stand side-by-side with ones rising from the ground. It is an arguably cleaner and safer place than it once was.

"The area's become just really vibrant, and almost a twenty-four hour, nice, urban, what you'd call a Main Street, pedestrian-friendly environment," said Tony Sweeney, Indianapolis Downtown, Inc.

There are plans for continued growth along the famed avenue, including new streetscapes, more public art and more commercial development.

Many have seen first-hand the years of change. "We have seen such a change, all the new condo developments, all the new retail businesses along the avenue, it's just a vibrant place that we feel can get better," said Greg Schiffli, Scholars Inn.

The upscale Scholars Inn, which renovated an old building into a modern, tastefully decorated eatery, is part of a renaissance in the making. "It's just a strip that you can find everything that you would want and do in one place," Schiffli said.

It's a street where quirky and eclectic are a way of life, and a stretch of road that's found success by daring to be different


http://www.discovermassave.com/

Hey everyone, I've been lurking for a little while and finally decided to join in the conversation. I live downtown and love our downtown.

Moochie, to answer your question on the number of units in the Packard it's 72. According to what I've heard, the Maxwell is going to be 7 stories with retail on the bottom floor.

welcome. its great to see all the indy people on here now. great news about the maxwell. Kosene and Hearthview keep the condo projects coming one after another.

I really like what this mayor has done to clean up the near east side of Indianapolis. This article is about where I live, historic Irvington. The motel manager sounds pretty insane if he really thinks our town is full of crime.


City orders east side hotel to shut down

Indianapolis - The City of Indianapolis Wednesday told managers at a troubled east side hotel to shut down for good. The Indy East Hotel is in the Irvington community on East Washington Street, and the city did not renew its business license.

Police records show officers have responded to incidents at the hotel 45 times so far this year. City leaders say that's nothing compared to the 900 runs they made in 2001.

Mayor Bart Peterson held a new conference Wednesday to announce orders for the hotel to shut down. The city issued the hotel manager a May 17 closing date.

Right now there are about ten permanent residents at the hotel. The hotel manager told Eyewitness News the same crimes that happen at his hotel also happen all along East Washington, but city leaders say Indy East is a haven for crime.

"They become locations for drug dealing, for prostitution. They degrade a neighborhood. They reduce property values. They make people feel uncomfortable in the places where they live," said Mayor Bart Peterson.

"The community has a problem with the hotel so the mayor took his action; whatever he needed to do. That is not going to solve his problem in the area. Having an abandoned building is going to be worse than having an open building," said Nick Patel, Indy East Hotel manager.

Speaking of Mass Ave...

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060510/LOCAL/60510028

May 10, 2006
New Mass Ave plans outlined

Businesses owners and area residents from Massachusetts Avenue in downtown Indianapolis received an update today on efforts to turn a once-blighted avenue into a flourishing downtown neighborhood.

The area, running from Delaware to 10th streets, has seen 25 new businesses occupying more than 52,000 square-feet open since 1998.In addition, $419 million in new projects, including 379 new residential units are expected to be completed by 2008.
The details of the avenue’s future were discussed at a Mass Ave. Summit hosted by the Riley Area Development Corp. and Indianapolis Downtown Inc.

In June, the Indianapolis Historic Preservation Commission is expected to take up a final historic preservation plan for the avenue as area leaders begin to explore the possibility of creating an economic impact district in the area too as a way to raise funds for projects.

A new media venture is opening on the east end of the avenue called the Media Garden at 918 Massachusetts Ave. The venture will feature a variety of films, old and new, art films and more mainstream offerings, said Tom Battista, a long-time property owner. The garden is outside and will be used primarily during warm-weather months.

Battista also announced plans to open Gelato A Go-Go by early summer in the 800 block of Massachusetts near the restaurant, R. Bistro. The establishment selling the Italian dessert will be housed in a 1960s silver trailer.

Someone mentioned One Market Square going up in August. Is there a firm date for ground breaking? I thought the "Going Up" line was just part of an ad campaign. I spoke to Kurt Flock a few months back and he said that he was very confident that they would get enough pre-sales to start the project. Has this happened? I hope so!!! Does anyone have any firm infomation on this project?

It really is disapointing that a crappy projects like the Villagio can get off the ground so quickly, and OMS can't. I wonder if it's a price point thing. I wonder if a buiding similar to OMS could be built at Villagio price points and still break even.

Someone mentioned One Market Square going up in August. Is there a firm date for ground breaking? I thought the "Going Up" line was just part of an ad campaign. I spoke to Kurt Flock a few months back and he said that he was very confident that they would get enough pre-sales to start the project. Has this happened? I hope so!!! Does anyone have any firm infomation on this project? In IBJ a couple weeks ago the Mayor stated that enough units had been sold that that the current deadline was "firm". This was in print only, so no links. I e-mailed Kurt Flock a couple weeks ago for more info, and got no response. I doubt that means anything though.


It really is disapointing that a crappy projects like the Villagio can get off the ground so quickly, and OMS can't. I wonder if it's a price point thing. I wonder if a buiding similar to OMS could be built at Villagio price points and still break even.

Villagio was largely more expensive right? If so, it may have made a difference. All reports are that the expensive units at OMS sold very, very quickly. All the highest floors with the best views and penthouses sold immediately. It was the lower levels in the tower with lackluster views and lower priced units that were problematic.

thehoss, there was info in the paper about the August date; the mayor and whoever else was cited. i spoke w/ a sales rep. a few months back and he was confident as well. based on all that, August is the date.

Villagio was largely more expensive right?.
I was assuming that the units in the villagio were less expensive. I made this assumption because of it's lackluster design. It looks like a cheap, beach front, mid-rise on the "Redneck Riviera." This is compounded by the ugly parking garage that is not integrated into the building.

Its great to know that OMS is really going up!

I think people will start to understand the some of the best views are from units that have a good view of street life. That is of course if the street is active and has good streetscaping. I was accually told by a developer of mixed-use properties in Florida that the units that have views of an active street often go for more money than units with ocean views.

I was assuming that the units in the villagio were less expensive. I made this assumption because of it's lackluster design. It looks like a cheap, beach front, mid-rise on the "Redneck Riviera." This is compounded by the ugly parking garage that is not integrated into the building.
Yeah, they're higher end than OMS. Granted OMS has several million dollar plus penthouses, but besides those the vast majority of the units are in the $200,000 to $500,000 range. Villagio is in the $350,000 to $750,000 range. The defunct Residences at Market Square had residences starting at $130,000

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060426/BUSINESS/604260406/1003

Villagio does kind of look out of place to me, but it looks pretty typical to what I've seen in Italy... Of course, Indy isn't Italy...

I'm kind of concerned, shouldn't downtown have more options for the mid range condo buyer? don't most urban areas have sub $100,000 to $200,000 condos? We don't want them all to be upper crust right?

I apologize if this has already been mentioned, but I thought it was interesting and didn't recall seeing it here. I was driving downtown yesterday via Central and saw the big building on the corner of 25th and Central (currently unoccupied and says "central cabinet" on it) has a banner now stating that it will be converted to the "Folio Lofts." Here is the website:

http://www.foliolofts.com/intro.html

Website states it is to be completed in Summer of 2007. I have driven by this building hundreds of times. Even though it's not any earthshattering architecture (neither the original building nor their "reinterpretation" of it), I'm glad to see somone doing something with it, as opposed to tearing it down. I hate to see little pieces of history like that building be demolished, so it's good that they're saving it--even if the renderings of their renovations are tacky looking. This corner has been blighted for a LONG time, even though it's well within Fall Creek Place, so hopefully having this huge building converted will help the corner. Now if we could get a restaurant on the main floor and use the small yard area infront of it as an outdoor dining patio, that might even spark some streetlife around the area. Interesting nonetheless.

On a personal note, I'm moving to San Francisco in a couple weeks, and though I will miss a lot of things about Indy and the Midwest in general, I am very excited. I'll make sure to keep up with what's happening here, though--I think it's a very exciting time to live in Indy. Keep up the posting so I'll have an idea of what's happening in my hometown! Take care, guys!

I apologize if this has already been mentioned, but I thought it was interesting and didn't recall seeing it here. I was driving downtown yesterday via Central and saw the big building on the corner of 25th and Central (currently unoccupied and says "central cabinet" on it) has a banner now stating that it will be converted to the "Folio Lofts." Here is the website:

http://www.foliolofts.com/intro.html

Website states it is to be completed in Summer of 2007. I have driven by this building hundreds of times. Even though it's not any earthshattering architecture (neither the original building nor their "reinterpretation" of it), I'm glad to see somone doing something with it, as opposed to tearing it down. I hate to see little pieces of history like that building be demolished, so it's good that they're saving it--even if the renderings of their renovations are tacky looking. This corner has been blighted for a LONG time, even though it's well within Fall Creek Place, so hopefully having this huge building converted will help the corner. Now if we could get a restaurant on the main floor and use the small yard area infront of it as an outdoor dining patio, that might even spark some streetlife around the area. Interesting nonetheless.

On a personal note, I'm moving to San Francisco in a couple weeks, and though I will miss a lot of things about Indy and the Midwest in general, I am very excited. I'll make sure to keep up with what's happening here, though--I think it's a very exciting time to live in Indy. Keep up the posting so I'll have an idea of what's happening in my hometown! Take care, guys!

I was just checking out that webpage yesterday! Interestingly, every 1BR unit (the cheapest) has already been sold or reserved, the exact opposite pattern that moochie was mentioning for OMS. I was in that building last summer when my brother was moving (Central Cabinet was operating a moving truck rental service at the time, Budget or something). I didn't see too much of it, but it's got some old tile work on the floor in the entranceway and there were all kinds of old Indy photographs on the wall, mostly from the Central Cabinet building. Hopefully they save some of the old features of the building and don't completely gut it.

Good luck in San Fran, jacerw99! I was just there for the first time for a conference a couple weeks ago and it's an amazing city. Expensive as hell, but amazing!

I was just checking out that webpage yesterday! Interestingly, every 1BR unit (the cheapest) has already been sold or reserved, the exact opposite pattern that moochie was mentioning for OMS.

I wonder if perhaps this is an indication why sales at OMS and The residences at market square went so badly.. Why didn't low end units sell? Were they just marketed badly, or not at all? Or were they just really crappy? A relatively low cost condo in a building like this 25th street one, or one in Herron Morton, Mill no. 9, etc. has a lot of amenities, lots of character, lots of room and perhaps a balcony. If a similarly priced unit in OMS was basically a hotel room with little character... Why would someone buy one? I can't come up with any other reason why $130,000 units at a super prime location like Residences at Market Square wouldn't sell, and sell quickly...

If so, would it really have been so hard to slap a frickin balcony on the low end units? This isn't downtown Chicago where living in a tower is a necessity... give the buyers what they want...

That's my guess anyway.

Oddly, this new article gives no new information...

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060511/LOCAL/60511040


Groups eye Mass Ave Coke plant

The Indianapolis Public Schools district is considering several proposals to redevelop the historic Coca-Cola bottling plant on Massachusetts Avenue.

The district opened up a request for offers on March 1 through the end of April for the nearly 12-acre parcel at 850 Massachusetts Ave. where the art deco-style former Coke bottling plant is located.
Three proposals are under review, but the decision to sell the property will depend on where services currently housed in the building will be relocated.

The building is mainly used as a bus repair depot and houses some of IPS’s 200 fleet of school buses.

“If we can find a suitable location to relocate we will relocate,” said IPS spokeswoman Kim Hooper. “We don’t have to sell, but we have to explore the possibility.”

Thanks Jacer...I noticed that development two weeks ago when the BF and I were driving around the area.

I am thinking that with all of the new developments going up, the Indianapolis skyline will have a much different look in 2016.

As for the comments about development downtown, I believe that some low rise housing is a good thing. It adds bulk and density to the downtown core, and provides somewhat of a variety. Of course, I would like to see a tower just as much, and I agree with the theory that once it physically goes up, things will change.

Another boomlet heard on Mass Ave.?
Developers want to take over landmark Coke plant from IPS

What's next for booming Massachusetts Avenue: a Target? Whole Foods Market? Condos and apartments?

Three developers are proposing those and more to fill the former Coca-Cola plant that dominates the east end of the Downtown Indianapolis street, which is lined by galleries, restaurants, nightspots and eclectic shops.
For more than 30 years, the distinctive art deco plant has been used by Indianapolis Public Schools as a bus depot, carpentry shop and library service center. District leaders refused to comment Thursday on plans for the site, but administrators are considering three offers to trade the plant for facilities at a different location.
Bidders did not have to say whether they would save or demolish the 70-year-old landmark. Although the plant hasn't been designated a historic site, the Indianapolis Historic Preservation Commission is working with business owners, residents and community leaders to try to preserve it.
"It's gorgeous. The detail and the masonry -- and such care is in the design of the building," Scott Truex said. He is director of Ball State University's College of Architecture and Planning Indianapolis Center. "As industrial architecture, it's a great example and a very important part of our history."
Indianapolis-based Kite Realty Group Trust is among the bidders.
"What attracted us to the property is the potential retail component, its location and the neat nature of housing components," said Tom McGowan, executive vice president of development at Kite.
McGowan said the company wants a smattering of retail and housing on the 12-acre property.
"It's going be a very capital-intensive project," he said, "and we will need time and creativity to be successful to put all the pieces together."
Another bidder, Browning Investments, could not be reached for comment Thursday.
The third proposal comes from a community development corporation, College Flats LLC, with the backing of California-based Panatonni Development Co. and local companies Plateau Development Group LLC and McCalley Properties.
That's the same group that re-developed the building housing Starbucks and the Hoaglin To Go restaurant in the 400 block of Massachusetts Avenue. Executive Director Bill Gray said the group has been working on the Coca-Cola project for five years.
College Flats wants to build 300 to 400 rental and condominium units, while 180,000 to 200,000 square feet would have retail development. There are no plans to tear down the buildings.
"We would want a good urban Target, or a food company like Whole Foods," Gray said, "shops, promenade, restaurants and a theater of some kind."
Target and Whole Foods Market did not return calls seeking comment.
"Certainly something like Target would be a boon for the Downtown market," said Terry Sweeny of Indianapolis Downtown Inc., a Downtown marketing group. "It would attract more business to the area and help surrounding businesses."
Neighboring shop owners agreed.
"Anything but these buses," said Erica Cupp, whose nail and hair salon, Beyond the Fringe, sits opposite the old building.
A neighborhood Target could free up more shelf space at his store for other items, said Michael Cook, general manager at Fusek's True Value just off New Jersey Street Downtown.
"It would leave more room for us to be competitive in other areas," Cook said. "They carry stuff like electric frying pans and Rubbermaid storage. While we do carry it, we would rather let them sell it."
It's no surprise developers are eyeing the property, said Truex, the planning center director.
"It's pretty accessible to the immediate Eastside neighborhood. The Monon Trail is there," he said. "The site could be a great linkage point and a great terminus to add life to that part of Mass. Ave."
As prime as the land is in an area brimming with new businesses, Truex said he couldn't imagine the property without the Coke building.
"I don't think any developer in their right mind would advocate tearing down the Coke building and putting up a suburban box-type Target there," said Truex. "I believe they realize and understand the preservation movement of Indianapolis."


Details on the 3 proposals

Indianapolis Public Schools officials are reviewing proposals from three developers that want to trade land for the IPS site in the old Coca-Cola bottling plant on Massachusetts Avenue. Here is what they're offering IPS:

Browning Investments
• Key partners: CSO Schenkel Shultz; Blackburn Architects.
• Proposal: Delay sale of former Coke building until city decides on a location for a new public transit center and IndyGo vacates its current bus facility.
• New IPS location: Refitted existing IndyGo facility, 1553 W. Washington St.
• Stated advantages: Already suited for IPS needs; Downtown location; can sell former Coke building for better price without the burden of looking for a new bus center.
• Total estimated value: None stated.
• Use of former Coke building: Unknown.

Kite Realty Group
• Key partners: KMI Realty Advisors; KRG Construction.
• Proposal: Build a combined bus facility and media/service center on 25 acres.
• New IPS location: 6435 Olivia Lane (near Arlington Avenue and 34th Street on the city's Eastside).
• Stated advantages: Combines facilities on one site; centrally located to IPS boundaries; access to I-70.
• Total estimated value: $23.9 million.
• Use of former Coke building: Unclear, but talk of finding "anchor tenants" suggests retail.

College Flats LLC
• Key partners: Riley Area Development Corp.; Shiel Sexton; Odle, McGuire & Shook.
• Proposal: Build a separate bus facility and media/service center in two locations.
• New IPS locations: Bus center on 15 acres next to IPS food kitchen near Massachusetts Avenue and Sherman Drive on the Eastside; media/service center at 1426 W. 29th St. on the Near Northside.
• Stated advantages: Two functions will be better separate; has worked with IPS to assess needs.
• Total estimated value: $25 million.
• Use of former Coke building: Unclear, but talk of mixed-use development suggests homes and retail.

-- Brendan O'Shaughnessy

Coca-Cola plant has long, elegant history
At one time, the sprawling, two-story art deco building on Massachusetts Avenue was the largest Coca-Cola bottling plant in the world.

Designed by the prestigious Indianapolis architectural firm Rubush and Hunter and built by the William P. Jungclas Co., the first section went up in the 1930s and construction finished in the late 1940s.

The main building has nearly 340,000 square feet of space. The original entrance featured a two-story lobby with a circular staircase, terrazzo floor and brass-medallioned ceiling.

In 1968, after Coca-Cola moved into a new building in Speedway, Indianapolis Public Schools bought the building and surrounding eight acres of property for $700,000 to use as its transportation service center.

-- Compiled by the Star library

here are a few of my pics of the facility. It is truely an amazing property and will soon be one of the best urban reuse projects in the Midwest!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/cwilson758/Indy%20Pics/Mass%20Ave/P0002780.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/cwilson758/Indy%20Pics/Mass%20Ave/P0002778.jpg

Die, pond scum, Die!
Algae invasion transforms Downtown Canal from scenic to slimy. What to do?
Ah, the Downtown Canal.
Gondola rides, romantic hand-in-hand walks, big green blobs of scum.
Fed by spring's sunshine and warmth, the slimy stuff now lines much of the 6-foot-deep canal.
Why? A later-than-usual dose of algae-fighting chemicals combined with money-saving decisions made when the canal was revamped years ago.
The scum is particularly bad behind the Indiana State Museum, and visitors have noticed -- thousands of them. The OneAmerica 500 Festival Mini-Marathon, with 35,000 participants, finished near the canal last week.
"It looks really bad, and they see that, and they think we're not maintaining the canal. We are, but it's just hard to do with the equipment we have," said Claude Hamilton, property manager at White River State Park. "We've been trying to get that under control for several years."
Things have gotten so bad that state and city officials have called a special meeting next month to try to find a solution.
Not easy to clean

The canal is one of two in the country with a concrete bed, Hamilton said. Machinery that could clear the bottom of an earthen canal would crumple against the concrete.
"Nothing has been produced to maintain a concrete-based canal," he said.
Workers use fish-safe dyes and chemicals to fight the algae. A dye goes in once a year as a kind of sunscreen to block UV rays that make algae grow. The dye stunts the vegetation's growth but doesn't eliminate it.
The city, which is responsible for the canal east of West Street, also treats the water each April with a chemical to kill the algae. That flows downstream to the section maintained by the state west of West Street.
This year the chemical was added right before the race in May. Justin Ohlemiller, spokesman for the Department of Metropolitan Development in Indianapolis Mayor Bart Peterson's office, was unsure of the reason for the delay.
"The aquatics treatments started right before the Mini-Marathon," he said. "We're definitely going to start them earlier. That way, they can have a better effect."
Officials will look at other options at next month's meeting, which has not yet been scheduled for a specific day. They could look for a mechanical harvester that can cope with concrete or consider draining the canal for a good scouring.
The idea of thoroughly cleaning the canal isn't a new one, said Bob Whitt, executive director of White River State Park, but has never been tried. The last time someone suggested the idea, the quoted cost was $1 million.
"There are no simple, inexpensive solutions," Whitt said.
The last line of defense now: Workers use pool skimmers to scoop up what they can.
The way it was

In 1985, the Downtown Canal was a filthy waterway with a surface level 13 feet higher than today's. That was the year Indianapolis development officials decided to overhaul the entire area, lowering the canal to its current level and turning an eyesore into a destination. They also decided to use concrete to line the canal, an affordable and attractive choice that has since proved less practical for controlling algae.
"The idea was there to take some of the principles of Italy and their canals and bring them there," said Barth Hendrickson, associate partner with Browning Day Mullins Dierdorf, the architectural firm responsible for the canal's rebirth.
The canal's concrete lining was given a black coating to improve its appearance and, they thought, discourage algae growth, said Eric Fulford, who now owns a landscape architecture company. Fulford worked for Browning Day Mullins Dierdorf in the 1980s when the plans were developed. His part, he said, included fountain design. The plan originally called for many more fountains to help aerate the water. To save money, a third or more were eliminated.
"Where you see a lot of the algae collected now is in the quiet backwaters," he said. "There's just not enough circulation there."
Tonta Shank and her third-graders would have liked a little more circulation in the water Thursday. The Warren Township students from Liberty Park Elementary School took a break from a field trip to the Indiana State Museum to eye plants and fish in the water.
"They started to sort of neglect the canal a little bit," Shank said. "It was really beautiful at one time. If you look at it, it really is pretty nasty."
Jeff Hutson, president of Old World Gondoliers, who'll have his grand opening for summer once the rain clears, said he doesn't see the muck as a major problem for his business.
"It makes our job a little bit more difficult, of course," he said. "I'm hoping and I'm confident the city will do something. They've done an excellent job up until now."
The algae could even add to the gondola ride's authenticity, Hutson said.
"As much as people say about the algae," he said, "it's really worse in Venice."

how much of the facade could be saved if the bldg height is 25 ft? i say that b/c i think the bldg needs extra height or better yet they could put 10 floors of condo space above the retail.

Omni mothballs garage plan

Downtown’s Omni Severin Hotel is shelving a plan to build a parking structure and grand ballroom. IBJ reported in February the hotel was negotiating with real estate developer Bob Borns to buy the surface parking lot immediately east of the hotel for the project.

It had planned to put four levels of parking and a 12,000-square-foot ballroom on the site with the possibility of retail space on the ground floor.

The two sides, however, have not been able to reach an agreement.

“We’re disappointed,” said Phil Ray, the Omni’s general manager. “We were hopeful we were going to be able to work it out.”

Although Ray would not declare the proposal dead in the water, he said it’s unlikely that it’ll go forward.

Two roadblocks stifled the plan. Borns wanted to package the surface parking lot with a neighboring building he owns that houses Ike & Jonesy’s. Projected construction costs were also more than the Omni expected.

“The development of the lot ended up being more expensive than we initially thought,” Ray said.

The Omni still has a need for both parking spaces and a large ballroom. It’s the fifthlargest hotel in Indianapolis, but there are more than a dozen local hotels with more meeting space. The underground parking garage it uses across Illinois Street could also be in jeopardy if a proposed convention center hotel is built on the site. Ray said the hotel does not have a backup plan for meeting either need.

He also would not disclose how much the Omni offered for the property.

Borns did not return a call for comment.

http://tampa.ibj.com/Repository/getimage.dll?path=IBJ/2006/05/08/13/Img/Pc0130600.jpg
The Omni’s plan to add a ballroom and parking garage came up short.

http://tampa.ibj.com/Repository/ml.asp?Ref=SUJKLzIwMDYvMDUvMDgjQXIwMTMwNA==&Mode=HTML&Locale=english-skin-custom

Biz incubator out of room
IU Emerging Tech Center needs $20M or more for expansion

In its quest to develop high-tech startups, Indianapolis has established a healthy pipeline. But there’s a bottleneck that’s poised to become even more congested.

Located at the head of the Central Canal, Indiana University’s Emerging Technologies Center is the city’s primary business incubator, chock-full of labs and equipment.

Established in 2003, the 62,500-square-foot building is now crowded with 26 promising young firms. A handful have outgrown their space, and are on the cusp of “graduation.” IUETC CEO Mark Long reports there’s a waiting list of hopefuls to take over their spots inside.

But these fledgling companies aren’t yet ready to survive on the open market. With their products still in development, it will be several years before they are positioned to generate profit or, in some cases, even sales.

The companies certainly don’t have the resources to buy or build their own digs, and wet labs—facilities equipped with the plumbing, ventilation and equipment needed to allow hands-on scientific research—are in short supply in central Indiana.

“We have to provide the space for them, or they’re going to look anywhere they can, which might not be here [in Indiana],” Long said. “That’s a serious issue.”

The cost of acquiring and retrofitting the existing incubator was $10 million. Long estimates building a 100,000-square-foot building on the north side of 10th Street to accommodate graduating companies would cost $20 million to $22 million.

Back when the original incubator formed, plans for that expansion were included in the land use study by New York-based Beyer Blinder Belle architects.

Development of other buildings in that study has rolled right along—recently, for instance, Clarian Health Partners greenlighted its $44 million training center.

But the graduate business incubator is still gathering dust on the drawing board.

“The question is, ‘Where’s the funding coming from?’” Long said. “This is a case where we need all the partners we can get.”

That’s how the original incubator was financed. A team including U.S. Sen. Evan Bayh, U.S. Rep. Julia Carson, Mayor Bart Peterson and IU cobbled together the money.

The university is clearly not going to foot the entire bill for the next phase, either.

“It is everyone’s expectation at IU that there will come a time we will build a second building. But I don’t think anyone knows when that will be,” said IU spokesman Larry MacIntyre. “IU cannot carry that burden by itself. But I think it’s long been understood here that we would be part of an expansion of that operation and would play as much of a role as we possibly can.”

In interviews with IBJ, nearly every party with a stake in the incubator’s success was generally supportive of an expansion, from Peterson to Clarian to the Indiana Economic Development Corp.

“We would certainly be supporters in any way that we can,” said IEDC Executive Vice President Nathan Feltman.

But since it’s not clear where the buck should stop, each party passes it. For now, the project has no champion.

“It’s kind of a ‘Who’s on first?’ situation,” Long said.

In the meantime, the incubator’s occupants are in limbo. Take Therametric Technologies Inc., which is attempting to commercialize dental innovations. One of its products is a specialized pet food that cleans dogs’ and cats’ teeth. It should hit the market next summer. Another is a medical device to detect early decay in human teeth.

Therametric has attracted $1.2 million from the National Institutes of Health, matching funds from the Indiana 21st Century Research and Technology Fund. It now has six employees.

Its founder, Dr. George Stookey, helped IU with the original development of Crest toothpaste and has been an innovator in the field since. Stookey said Therametric will soon outgrow the incubator, but he’s not sure where to go next.

“We’re kind of on the bubble here, where things are starting to happen. I suspect within the next year, we’ll have to do something,” he said. “You’ve got to have some wet lab facilities. They don’t have to be extremely elaborate, but you have to have some.”

Rick Ludwig, CEO of contract researcher Indiana Centers for Applied Protein Sciences, or INCAPS, has grown his business to 17 employees since moving into the incubator in January 2004.

Ludwig has begun to consider his need to find new space in the next 18 months or so. He didn’t sound eager to leave behind the incubator’s shelter, which offers a host of mentoring services in addition to equipment and space.

Ludwig said a graduate incubator would suit INCAPS perfectly. But he doesn’t know whether it will be there when INCAPS needs it.

“We would love to be able to go to a facility managed by the same folks we’re working with,” he said. “If it’s not available when we need to move, of course we have to look elsewhere.”

Parking is another potential roadblock to a graduate incubator. Lots of development has occurred around the head of the canal, IU’s MacIntyre noted, but no parking garage has been built to support it. And that could create pressure to build a garage on land slated for the graduate incubator.

“That’s not a showstopper, but it is a problem,” MacIntyre said. “We do recognize that Mark Long has been really successful. His record’s very impressive, and that’s been noted.”

http://tampa.ibj.com/Repository/getimage.dll?path=IBJ/2006/05/08/3/Img/Pc0030600.jpg

http://tampa.ibj.com/Repository/ml.asp?Ref=SUJKLzIwMDYvMDUvMDgjQXIwMDMwMw==&Mode=HTML&Locale=english-skin-custom

Indy lands Major League Baseball's winter meetings
Indians' Schumacher credited for relentless effort in city's ability to get 2009 event

A few major league owners will shudder to learn baseball broke with a balmy tradition Thursday in awarding the 2009 winter league meetings to Indianapolis.

The annual get-together of baseball's hierarchy to discuss rules changes and trades is usually held in a warm-weather city -- Indy is the northernmost site since Columbus, Ohio, in 1966 -- and organizers prefer a tight setup of two hotels, which will not be the case here. Several connected by Indiana Convention Center skywalks will be used.

City officials, including Mayor Bart Peterson, joined major and minor league representatives at home plate of Victory Field on Thursday to announce the plans.

Indians president Max Schumacher teamed with the Indianapolis Convention & Visitors Association to land the 108th meetings after making unsuccessful pitches each of the past four years.

"Max is relentless," said Jimmie Lee Solomon, major league executive vice president of baseball operations. "He brought us around to his way of thinking. Why does it have to be in a warm-weather setting all the time? Why can't it be done with more than two hotels?

"We in baseball have glacier-like movement. We move forward in very slow motion. But if you look at this setup, you don't have to go outside at all."

About 2,500 visitors will generate $2.2 million in direct spending Dec. 7-11, 2009, according to ICVA estimates.

ICVA president and CEO Bob Bedell said Schumacher deserves much of the credit.

"Max Schumacher was like a bulldog," Bedell said.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2006605050495

Biz incubator out of room
IU Emerging Tech Center needs $20M or more for expansion

In its quest to develop high-tech startups, Indianapolis has established a healthy pipeline. But there’s a bottleneck that’s poised to become even more congested.

Located at the head of the Central Canal, Indiana University’s Emerging Technologies Center is the city’s primary business incubator, chock-full of labs and equipment.

Established in 2003, the 62,500-square-foot building is now crowded with 26 promising young firms. A handful have outgrown their space, and are on the cusp of “graduation.” IUETC CEO Mark Long reports there’s a waiting list of hopefuls to take over their spots inside.

But these fledgling companies aren’t yet ready to survive on the open market. With their products still in development, it will be several years before they are positioned to generate profit or, in some cases, even sales.

The companies certainly don’t have the resources to buy or build their own digs, and wet labs—facilities equipped with the plumbing, ventilation and equipment needed to allow hands-on scientific research—are in short supply in central Indiana.

“We have to provide the space for them, or they’re going to look anywhere they can, which might not be here [in Indiana],” Long said. “That’s a serious issue.”

The cost of acquiring and retrofitting the existing incubator was $10 million. Long estimates building a 100,000-square-foot building on the north side of 10th Street to accommodate graduating companies would cost $20 million to $22 million.

Back when the original incubator formed, plans for that expansion were included in the land use study by New York-based Beyer Blinder Belle architects.

Development of other buildings in that study has rolled right along—recently, for instance, Clarian Health Partners greenlighted its $44 million training center.

But the graduate business incubator is still gathering dust on the drawing board.

“The question is, ‘Where’s the funding coming from?’” Long said. “This is a case where we need all the partners we can get.”

That’s how the original incubator was financed. A team including U.S. Sen. Evan Bayh, U.S. Rep. Julia Carson, Mayor Bart Peterson and IU cobbled together the money.

The university is clearly not going to foot the entire bill for the next phase, either.

“It is everyone’s expectation at IU that there will come a time we will build a second building. But I don’t think anyone knows when that will be,” said IU spokesman Larry MacIntyre. “IU cannot carry that burden by itself. But I think it’s long been understood here that we would be part of an expansion of that operation and would play as much of a role as we possibly can.”

In interviews with IBJ, nearly every party with a stake in the incubator’s success was generally supportive of an expansion, from Peterson to Clarian to the Indiana Economic Development Corp.

“We would certainly be supporters in any way that we can,” said IEDC Executive Vice President Nathan Feltman.

But since it’s not clear where the buck should stop, each party passes it. For now, the project has no champion.

“It’s kind of a ‘Who’s on first?’ situation,” Long said.

In the meantime, the incubator’s occupants are in limbo. Take Therametric Technologies Inc., which is attempting to commercialize dental innovations. One of its products is a specialized pet food that cleans dogs’ and cats’ teeth. It should hit the market next summer. Another is a medical device to detect early decay in human teeth.

Therametric has attracted $1.2 million from the National Institutes of Health, matching funds from the Indiana 21st Century Research and Technology Fund. It now has six employees.

Its founder, Dr. George Stookey, helped IU with the original development of Crest toothpaste and has been an innovator in the field since. Stookey said Therametric will soon outgrow the incubator, but he’s not sure where to go next.

“We’re kind of on the bubble here, where things are starting to happen. I suspect within the next year, we’ll have to do something,” he said. “You’ve got to have some wet lab facilities. They don’t have to be extremely elaborate, but you have to have some.”

Rick Ludwig, CEO of contract researcher Indiana Centers for Applied Protein Sciences, or INCAPS, has grown his business to 17 employees since moving into the incubator in January 2004.

Ludwig has begun to consider his need to find new space in the next 18 months or so. He didn’t sound eager to leave behind the incubator’s shelter, which offers a host of mentoring services in addition to equipment and space.

Ludwig said a graduate incubator would suit INCAPS perfectly. But he doesn’t know whether it will be there when INCAPS needs it.

“We would love to be able to go to a facility managed by the same folks we’re working with,” he said. “If it’s not available when we need to move, of course we have to look elsewhere.”

Parking is another potential roadblock to a graduate incubator. Lots of development has occurred around the head of the canal, IU’s MacIntyre noted, but no parking garage has been built to support it. And that could create pressure to build a garage on land slated for the graduate incubator.

“That’s not a showstopper, but it is a problem,” MacIntyre said. “We do recognize that Mark Long has been really successful. His record’s very impressive, and that’s been noted.”

http://tampa.ibj.com/Repository/getimage.dll?path=IBJ/2006/05/08/3/Img/Pc0030600.jpg

http://tampa.ibj.com/Repository/ml.asp?Ref=SUJKLzIwMDYvMDUvMDgjQXIwMDMwMw==&Mode=HTML&Locale=english-skin-custom

I understand that funding is the major problem here, but what will it take to make these people realize that building tall is and has been an option? Why are all those building 3 to 6 stories tall when space is and was at a premium? why weren't they built 10 to 15 stories tall?

but how many R&D bldgs are that tall, if any? i know there are tall hospitals but i don't know if there are different needs/codes...

but how many R&D bldgs are that tall, if any? i know there are tall hospitals but i don't know if there are different needs/codes...
You got me, but if height is an issue for research, just move administration and, human resources, public relations etc. to the upper floors. I don't see a problem.

Of course, there are still plenty of holes to fill Downtown. in fact, there is a significant amount of development outside the Mile Square.

Has anyone seen the new research building being constructed at the north end of the canal? Its street presence is fantastic and really looks good there on West Street! Teh design is quite nice too. I love all the brick, the different setbacks, etc.

I believe it is 7 stories tall? Emporis doesn't have it on the construction list (shock!) As a matter of fact, they leave out quite a bit with regards to U/C buildings here in Indy.

Has anyone seen the new research building being constructed at the north end of the canal? Its street presence is fantastic and really looks good there on West Street! Teh design is quite nice too. I love all the brick, the different setbacks, etc.

I believe it is 7 stories tall? Emporis doesn't have it on the construction list (shock!) As a matter of fact, they leave out quite a bit with regards to U/C buildings here in Indy.
If you can send e-mail links to prove construction, Emporis will update in a matter of hours. I've done it myself.

Has anyone seen the new research building being constructed at the north end of the canal? Its street presence is fantastic and really looks good there on West Street! Teh design is quite nice too. I love all the brick, the different setbacks, etc.

I believe it is 7 stories tall? Emporis doesn't have it on the construction list (shock!) As a matter of fact, they leave out quite a bit with regards to U/C buildings here in Indy.

No offense, but Indy is well-covered, except for photos. Most of that has to do with the fact that folks who have applied to be photographers for Indy contribute a couple of photos then disappear, never to be heard from again. Unfortunately, I only have one or two days a year available to do photography (when I'm visiting family). I do virtually all of the editing work in Indy, and keep on top of things, even from 650 miles away. The goal, for me, is to get every 6+ floor building listed.

I believe the one you're referring to (though you're not specific) is one of these:

The Clarian Pathology Laboratory
(http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=219769)

Medical Information Sciences Building
(http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=248369)


The Clarian Education Resource Center is the one mentioned in the recent articles posted in this thread.
(http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=262380)


The only current 6+ floor construction projects I know of in Indy are:

Simon HQ
IMCPL Addition
Villaggio
IUPUI Medical Information Sciences (almost done, if not done)
Clarian Pathology (I believe it's just finished?)
Community Hospital North expansion
IUPUI Research Institute III
IU Cancer Center

Also listed are:
IUPUI's Campus Center (only 4 floors, but it includes a tall tower)
Lucas Oil Stadium

Riley Hospital should start soon, no? I'll move it to U/C when the foundation work has started.

Has anyone seen the new research building being constructed at the north end of the canal? Its street presence is fantastic and really looks good there on West Street! Teh design is quite nice too. I love all the brick, the different setbacks, etc.

I believe it is 7 stories tall? Emporis doesn't have it on the construction list (shock!) As a matter of fact, they leave out quite a bit with regards to U/C buildings here in Indy.

I think you're right, 7 stories. It's really only 5, though. The 6th is a mechanical level and the 7th is a tiny little thing, more like a tower. For people that didn't see, here's a handful of pictures of the building I posted back in March:

http://mypage.iu.edu/~ccorr/Canal/2006-03%20IU,%20Clarian,%20Buggs%20Temple%20005.JPG

http://mypage.iu.edu/~ccorr/Canal/2006-03%20IU,%20Clarian,%20Buggs%20Temple%20013.JPG

http://mypage.iu.edu/~ccorr/Canal/2006-03%20IU,%20Clarian,%20Buggs%20Temple%20019.JPG

No offense, but Indy is well-covered, except for photos. Most of that has to do with the fact that folks who have applied to be photographers for Indy contribute a couple of photos then disappear, never to be heard from again.

I'm guessing you just recruited a couple applicants...

thanks, but you don't have the best side from West Street :)

As for Emporis, sorry, I dind't think it wa son there.

thanks, but you don't have the best side from West Street :)

As for Emporis, sorry, I dind't think it wa son there.


Not a problem, but if there are projects u/c that I didn't list, please let me know.

thanks, but you don't have the best side from West Street :)

As for Emporis, sorry, I dind't think it wa son there.

Sorry about that. West St is not exactly hospitable to pedestrians in that area! Maybe I can walk over there sometime this weekend and snap a photo to put up here.

Whoah! Yes! It's always had an ugly Facade! Even after the last renovation.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060519/LOCAL/605190556

The owners are pretty savvy, and I'm guess they'll do something to make it stand out, especially since they're going to want to give it a new image to attract hesitant customers. I know the current owners did an awful lot to bring people back to the building last time, like adding a running track and gym, restaurants etc. I wonder it this time they'll add some residential? it's a possibility considering the high demand...

Maybe we can convince them to redo the facade like the Aqua building in Chicago...

http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=190323

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=99367

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/1300/aqua6ne.jpg

They added the following text to the article after I posted that:

"Co-owner Todd Maurer said they aim to hire a world-renowned architect that will make it Downtown’s “premier” office tower."

Yes! This is fantastic news! At least someone in this town has some vision in terms of skyscraper design!

long shot, but do you think there is a slight chance they would add more floors? they probably will definitely add a feature to the top so it won't be flat, ya' think?

as long as they add stainless steel and/or use glass that reflects the sky, i think it will look more urban skyscraper-ish.

long shot, but do you think there is a slight chance they would add more floors? they probably will definitely add a feature to the top so it won't be flat, ya' think?

as long as they add stainless steel and/or use glass that reflects the sky, i think it will look more urban skyscraper-ish.
I don't know.. I'd think that adding more floors would be disruptive to the tenants.. if not impossible. I have no idea how that would work frankly. Is there a lot of precedent for this type of thing?

As for a spire, I suppose it'll all come down to cost. The current owners have put oodles and gobs of moolah into the tower already. Granted, I'm sure a great deal of these new improvements will going to be covered by insurance though, so we may be talking a good bit of new cash invested. They are talking about a "world renowned architect" so that implies a lot more than a facelift or just different and new materials, though.

I'm pretty stoked about this.

One Indiana Square to get new exterior wall
IBJ staff report

One Indiana Square, which was damaged in an April 2 storm, will get an entire new exterior in a year-long project to repair and strengthen the building, according to one of the building's owners, Todd Maurer.

Maurer, other building owners and city officials announced the plans this afternoon.

The cost of the work is not yet known, as design plans need to be drawn up first, Maurer said. Building owners are in the process of selecting the architect that will design the exterior, which will give the building a whole new look, Maurer said.

"It's the safest and strongest thing to do," Maurer said. "It'll make it like new. The building will be the premier building in Indianapolis, a landmark once again."

The damage has been estimated in the millions of dollars.

The building--the only major downtown skyscraper to have major damage from the storm--has been plagued by facade problems.

Four years after the building was completed in 1970, work was needed to stabilize the glass front.

Then three severe storms between 1978 and 1990 blew out windows, caused water damage and tore chunks of the marble exterior off and onto the ground.

In the most recent storm, damage to the interior snowballed as windows blew out and offices were exposed to 80-mph winds. All tenants in the building were displaced. Tenants on the first 14 floors were allowed to return to work April 24. As of today, tenants on all floors can return to the building.

The building's new facade will be built over the existing facade, which will be removed from the inside of the structure on evenings and weekends. Tenants can remain in the building during construction of the new exterior.

The building is owned by Maurer, president of Indianapolis-based Halakar Properties and his father, Michael S. Maurer, a shareholder in IBJ Corp., which owns Indianapolis Business Journal. The two co-own the tower with local businessman Robert Schloss, also a partner in IBJ Corp., and Pittsburgh-based McKnight Development Co.

The group bought One Indiana Square in Oct. 2001 for about $25 million. It was built in 1970 and for two decades was the state's tallest building.

.. I'd think that adding more floors would be disruptive to the tenants.. if not impossible. I have no idea how that would work frankly. Is there a lot of precedent for this type of thing?

The Indiana Bell/Ameritech/SBC/AT&T 220 N. Meridian St. and the Adam's Mark Hotel (Old Blue Cross/Blue Shield) buildings were both designed and built to add another 20 floors. It would all depend on the original engineering.

My guess is the huge cost and low demand for downtown office space would not be in their favor.

If we could get more class B & C office buildings adaptively resued for hotel, housing, etc., then the supply reduction will help class A demand.

"It'll make it like new. The building will be the premier building in Indianapolis, a landmark once again."

My god you have to love those words, that makes the article exciting. Now, I can not wait to see the new renderings!

long shot, but do you think there is a slight chance they would add more floors? they probably will definitely add a feature to the top so it won't be flat, ya' think?

as long as they add stainless steel and/or use glass that reflects the sky, i think it will look more urban skyscraper-ish.
As long as the new feature doesn't conflict with 4 of July fireworks, I'm all for it.

The Indiana Bell/Ameritech/SBC/AT&T 220 N. Meridian St. and the Adam's Mark Hotel (Old Blue Cross/Blue Shield) buildings were both designed and built to add another 20 floors. It would all depend on the original engineering.

My guess is the huge cost and low demand for downtown office space would not be in their favor.

If we could get more class B & C office buildings adaptively resued for hotel, housing, etc., then the supply reduction will help class A demand.
But, weren't downtown vacancy rates close to single digits just a couple months ago? Or are we talking just class A demand? Not that I'm expecting additional stories mind you.

well, when I was still on staff with the City, there were plans being floated that would have converted the then empty floors of the tower (One Indiana Sq) to residential, so it may still be a dream/plan?

As for the redesign, hopefully this developer is will want to do enough to really alter the building. When all of the damage happened, my first thought was to give the building a face-lift with the insurance money.

<here's hoping for something to take away the "flatness" of the top>

Illinois Building in danger?
Preservationists fear for landmark’s future; owner mum on its fate

After sitting vacant for at least three years, the Illinois Building at the southeast corner of Market and Illinois streets is gaining attention as one historic preservation group tries to forestall any plans that might include tearing it down.

The Historic Landmarks Foundation of Indiana added the building to its “10 Most Endangered” landmarks list earlier this year. The group said it’s ringing the alarm bells due in part to what Landmarks employees are hearing.

“We have heard from a very good source … that there was a likelihood that the building could come down for a redevelopment project on the site,” said Central Region Office Director Mark Dollase. “Add to that the fact that it’s currently vacant and it’s cause for concern.”

Tiffany Gerber, a spokeswoman for HDG Mansur, confirmed that the company owns the building, but she declined to comment on plans for it.

Built in 1925, the building is one of several on and near Monument Circle designed by Rubush and Hunter, one of the city’s top architectural firms in the early 20th century. Other prominent Rubush and Hunter buildings include the Columbia Club and the Circle Tower.

The Illinois Building most recently housed a food court on the ground floor. The upper floors contain almost 100,000 square feet of Class B office space. The food court closed and the last of the office tenants were asked to leave by the end of 2002. Since then, nothing’s happened with the prime downtown location.

The building is not part of any city-designated historic district, nor is it listed on the National Register of Historic Places.

Dollase said he’s spoken with an attorney for HGD Mansur who wouldn’t say whether tearing the building down is in their plans.

Instead of demolition, Dollase said, he hopes the owners look across Illinois Street to the redevelopment of the historic Block’s Building. That structure has apartments with retail on the ground floor, instead of trying to compete in downtown’s crowded, new-construction residential market.

“So much of downtown Indianapolis is newer construction; each and every one of our historic buildings becomes valuable,” he said.

Jeff Henry, managing partner of the local office of St. Louis-based real estate firm Colliers Turley Martin Tucker, said the building could do well by getting back into the office space market.

“If you got a big enough tenant, you could go the office route,” Henry said. “They would need someone who would take 50 [percent] to 75 percent of the space in order for the owners to go back and retrofit the building.”

Nick Arterburn, first vice president of the local office of Los Angeles-based CB Richard Ellis, agreed and said its location could position it well to woo a state agency to occupy it. Arterburn said the building may have sat idle for a while mostly because, once the owners decide which direction to go, they’re likely facing tenant commitments of five to 10 years.

Arterburn said he could envision a combination of uses for the space—retail on the first floor, offices and then residential at the top—but that path might mean expensive changes to the interior. He said he didn’t think any plan would include demolition.

“Tearing it down and starting from scratch would be very costly,” he said.

The strength of the downtown-living trend has fueled speculation that the existing structure could be converted into condos or torn down for new residential construction.

Mary Jo Showley, a real estate agent with Carpenter, said the buyer profile for downtown residential has changed dramatically in the past three years.

“Previously, it was someone who strayed away from the cookie cutter, and that’s not true anymore,” she said. “Now, it’s people coming from the subdivisions who are used to uniform floor plans, but there is still the element that likes a one-of-a-kind property.”

She said the market for the newer buyer interested in uniform offerings is getting a bit saturated, but the demand for historic and unique residences remains strong. She said the exterior of the Illinois Building is “handsome,” but that parking might be an issue if it’s converted to residential.

Dollase said his organization hopes to convince the owner that the existing structure should stay. He’s not ready to disclose the group’s full plan of action to protect the building, but he said one avenue they’re pursuing is asking the Indianapolis Historic Preservation Commission to include it in a discussed Washington Street historic district.

But the local commission hasn’t yet tackled establishing that district. Administrator David Baker said creating the Washington Street district is one of several things members could consider “after we get through commitments we’re in right now.”

Baker said the boundaries for a potential district haven’t been set, but the area could encompass Washington Street from roughly the City-County building west to the Indiana Repertory Theatre.

“Then it might pop north and south off of Washington Street,” Baker said.

http://tampa.ibj.com/Repository/getimage.dll?path=IBJ/2006/05/22/1/Img/Pc0010500.jpg
Historic preservationists are gearing up to prevent demolition of the Illinois Building.

Stringtown—the next downtown success story?
Trio of real estate investors are betting on the burg

Drive around the roughly 50 blocks of Stringtown, a small, working-class neighborhood on the city’s near-west side, and you’ll come across some cute, rehabbed, two-bedroom houses for rent.

But there are also signs of neglect—boarded-up houses with siding falling off, cars up on blocks, and broken windows.

In the neighborhood just west of White River and the Indianapolis Zoo, a few real estate investors are wagering that the tight-knit district is ready to blossom. The burg stretches from the river west to Belmont Avenue, and is bordered by Michigan Street on the north and Washington Street on the south.

Investors say Stringtown’s proximity to downtown, new sidewalks along the river, connections to the Central Canal, and amazing riverfront views of downtown all spell potential gentrification.

“I just don’t think there are very many cities that have an amenity like the river that doesn’t eventually get developed,” said Rick Lux, who’s buying in the area with David Lurvey via Stringtown Realty LLC.

But other factors are weighing down the neighborhood, including crime—mostly burglaries and stolen cars—and neglect by some landlords. Lurvey and Lux said they wish the city would crack down more on code enforcement, towing broken-down cars and citing people for not maintaining houses. Lux said the other big hurdle is to get more private investment in the area.

Who is buying?

Lurvey said he’s amassed more than 30 homes and several lots, concentrating on the eastern edge. He’s acquired a string of lots along the river and envisions tearing down some buildings to make way for waterfront town homes that would attract young professionals who work at IUPUI, the Veterans Administration Clinic or other employers on the west edge of downtown. Lurvey’s also working with his sister to rehab houses in the neighborhood’s interior, trying to attract a mix of family and student renters.

“It’s timing,” Lurvey said. “The neighborhood is just turning.”

Lurvey, who calls himself the mayor of Stringtown, is backing up the talk with action. The longtime local real estate investor is moving from downtown proper into a Stringtown house he gutted and is rebuilding.

Lurvey said when he started buying five years ago, lots would sometimes go for as little as $5,000 or a home for $10,000. He’d put $30,000 worth of improvements into structurally sound houses, then put them on the rental market. He said costs have been moving up and rents in the area run in the $500 to $1,000 per month range.

According to home sales statistics from the Metropolitan Indianapolis Board of Realtors, in 2002, 11 Stringtown houses sold with the average sales price of $19,263. By 2005, the average price had increased to $32,490.

Lurvey said it was a challenge at first working with banks to get funding.

“At first everybody looked at us and said, ‘Are you crazy?’” Lurvey said. “Now they’re not saying that anymore.”

Over the past three years, KC Cohen, who was an early investor in Chatham Arch, has accrued more than 24 homes, investing more on the western end of the neighborhood.

“The [rental] market that’s there right now is a very unusual market,” Cohen said. “It’s a very stable population. People stay in that neighborhood their whole lives.”

He said the area’s appeal will be the ability to set up a Chicago-type urban environment with commercial offerings sprinkled among the residential.

“You could throw a dry cleaner on a corner where there’s a bunch of houses or a little restaurant or a dentist office,” he said. “You don’t see that in Chatham or Lockerbie.”

Other developers are also offering new residential options, mostly on the edges of the neighborhood. The H. Lauter Lofts, high-end condos listed at $105,000 to $215,000, recently opened on the south side of Washington Street, as did student studio apartments on Michigan Street.

Mixed in with the housing is the head- quarters of Goodwill Industries of Central Indiana Inc., a Cargill Dry Corn Ingredients mill, a bait shop and other light industrial shops.

Other redevelopment efforts

The West Side Community Development Corp. is active in the local housing market, too, focusing much of its effort just west of Stringtown in Haughville.

Executive Director Mark Stokes said the group works to move people from homelessness to renting to home ownership through a variety of programs. The group is building and selling about a house a month.

Despite his group’s push to increase home ownership, he welcomes outside investors who are rehabbing the housing stock for rentals.

“Anytime you see investment capital flowing into the community you’re working in, that’s a good thing,” Stokes said.

He said the city as a whole is dealing with an upsurge in burglaries, but that crime has dropped on the near-west side due to police efforts.

Alice Hatzell lives in the neighborhood and works for Lurvey showing rental houses. She said her husband was born in Stringtown and after moving to Danville, the couple came back in late 1999. Her husband wanted to return after his parents died, leaving his childhood home vacant.

“At first I said no,” Alice Hatzell said. “It scared me to death.”

Despite the signs for a home security system in her manicured yard, Hatzell said she hasn’t had any problems since moving back and that the neighborhood is gaining some life.

“Now you see BMWs and Mercedes driving around,” she said.

The Central State factor

Investors say what happens at the 160 acres of mostly vacant land at the former site of the Central State Hospital, just a half mile west of Stringtown, could also play a big role in its fate.

“In the big picture, if something positive happens at Central State, this will boom,” Lurvey said. Cohen agrees, but remains doubtful that Central State is going to be developed soon.

“I’ve been hawking that idea for years on deaf ears,” Cohen said. “What [Central State] ought to have is light commercial, multifamily and office buildings in an exceptional natural layout.”

Though confident in the long-term upside of buying in Stringtown, Cohen thinks the area may take a bit longer to mature.

“It has yet to get the attention of the mainstream buyer,” he said.

Kenneth Pittman, a longtime Stringtown resident who owns 25 homes, a handful of which he’s boarded up, said he’s heard it all before. He said the new investment in the area is a good thing, but he still thinks a turnaround is probably 10 or 15 years down the road.

Jim Thomas, a partner with Hearthview Residential Inc., said any potential town homes in Stringtown would have to compete with a lot of downtown housing opportunities by offering even lower pricing. And the neighborhood must tackle public safety issues, because single women make up a strong portion of the post-secondary student and young professional population the town homes would like to attract.

“I’m not sure how … transitional areas are going to play for that [female] target market,” Thomas said. “Personal safety ranks high on the list of their buying concerns.”

http://tampa.ibj.com/Repository/getimage.dll?path=IBJ/2006/05/22/10/Img/Pc0100300.jpg

http://tampa.ibj.com/Repository/getimage.dll?path=IBJ/2006/05/22/11/Img/Pc0110200.jpg
The home on the right, on West New York Street, is one of 31 that real estate investor David Lurvey is rehabbing in Stringtown, on the city’s near-west side.

Chase Tower to get new tenants

A health club and a new restaurant might be opening soon in downtown’s Chase Tower.

The health club will replace the 7,700-square-foot Professional Fitness that closed its doors in early May. Leasing agent Brian Epstein, president of Indianapolis-based Urban Space Properties, declined to share the name of the new club, but said he expects it to open in July.

Epstein’s been just as quick to replace Dress Barn and Enflora, both of which are in the process of closing.

He’s “working on a couple of prospects” for those spaces, he said, which likely will be combined to make room for a single restaurant. He declined to share the potential tenant’s name.

Indianapolis-based Enflora will move to a new downtown location, said President Toomie Farris, who hopes to be in a new space by fall. After 15 years in the Chase Tower, Farris said, the store had outgrown its only retail location.

Because more of its downtown deliveries are to residential addresses, he hopes to find a location with easier access for his drivers. In the interim, the company will process its orders out of its north-side warehouse.

Customers can continue to use the original phone number—634-3434—to purchase flowers. It will continue downtown deliveries.

Locally based Professional Fitness’ two remaining locations are in Zionsville and Fishers.

Suffern, N.Y.-based Dress Barn did not return a call for comment. There are seven remaining Dress Barns in the Indianapolis area.

But, weren't downtown vacancy rates close to single digits just a couple months ago? Or are we talking just class A demand? Not that I'm expecting additional stories mind you.

The fourth quarter 2005 numbers from Colliers Turley Martin Tucker have the overall downtown/midtown vacancy at 14.6% and Class A at about the same percentage. They expect the opening of the Simon HQ to drive up downtown vacancy by 2 percentage points. They don't break out the B & C space. But, the good news is downtown office is still is in its best shape since 2000.

CTMT Report (http://www.colliers.com/Content/Repositories/Base/Markets/Indianapolis/English/Market_Report/PDFs/Office20054thquarter.pdf)

An interesting aside - Charlotte has the lowest downtown office vacancy rate in the country at approx. 5.7%, but has one of the highest suburban vacancy rates.

Stringtown is VERY ripe for a huge explosion! The article is spot-on in that the views from there are the best in the city! Indy has very few natural features, a concerted effort to really push good, medium density, mixed-use development would make that area the hottest spot in Center Township!

The fourth quarter 2005 numbers from Colliers Turley Martin Tucker have the overall downtown/midtown vacancy at 14.6% and Class A at about the same percentage. They expect the opening of the Simon HQ to drive up downtown vacancy by 2 percentage points. They don't break out the B & C space. But, the good news is downtown office is still is in its best shape since 2000.

CTMT Report (http://www.colliers.com/Content/Repositories/Base/Markets/Indianapolis/English/Market_Report/PDFs/Office20054thquarter.pdf)

An interesting aside - Charlotte has the lowest downtown office vacancy rate in the country at approx. 5.7%, but has one of the highest suburban vacancy
rates.

14.5% sounds pretty good to me. Standard average vacancy rates for residential rental property is 20% to 25%. At least that's what you're supposed to figure in when you're estimating future rental income from a property or properties for income tax and mortgage loan purposes.

... They expect the opening of the Simon HQ to drive up downtown vacancy by 2 percentage points...

there was an article some time back where the interviewee, i think a rep. from the owner of the Nat'l City bldg (where Simon is currently), stated that they have pretty good amount of interest from potential tenants wanting to fill the space.

Even with a 14.6% CBD vacancy rate, that's still approx. 1.67 million s.f. If you include the Simon HQ, it's approx. 1.9 million s.f. The CBRE report below breaks down every major metro. Interesting - our metro area's office market size is below Austin.

CB Richard Ellis National Report (http://www.cbre.com/NR/rdonlyres/8014016E-E30B-46B1-834D-18B1C5A8AEF1/348252/1q06OFFVacancyIndexv2.pdf)

My concern is that Indianapolis isn't home to very many company headquarters. All it takes is for a few more mergers and our downtown office market would have major problems. And, for the most part, large corporations don't relocate here. Most local expansion is in the northern suburbs closer to the CEO's house. The biotech area is promising, but most of that related development will be on the periphery of downtown.

Hey guys, watch for an announcemnt on Central State. You should hear something soon.

Yeah, I wish more companies would consider downtown as a place to relocate instead of in some bland office park.

Also, I predict that once companies start relocating downtown, the need for office space will go up, and many of the "gaps" that exist will be filled in with residential, office, and retail space. I have always thought that the central core of Indy is on par to become a major destination for development along with downtown.

One final word: Cant wait to see what Regions will look like once the new facade will goes up. I think the current design is bland. Could they put some kind of strengthening system on the glass like teh John Hancock in Chicago? It may look completely different altogether.

Yeah, I wish more companies would consider downtown as a place to relocate instead of in some bland office park.

From what I understand, the majority of office space in Indy lines I-465 around the North and West sides--and downtown has a comparatively small percentage of the total office space in the metro area--maybe 25%? Having an office in a 20-story building downtown will always be more expensive than the suburban options, unless oil surpasses $100/barrel and Indy builds a great mass transit system. Most of the companies that relocate downtown are large (multi-)national companies, or the local companies and firms that service those larger companies. I dont think we can expect smaller companies to relocate downtown and still compete.

THe future of downtown Indy is what it has already become--a convention, shopping and entertainment destination. More housing will go a long way toward improving that trend, IMHO.

Ratio architects named to design convention center!

I have mixed feelings. They did a fantastic job putting lipstick on that pig of a design of the Simon tower. The State Museum is... interesting... I like it, but to me it says "amateuristically daring". It's as if they tried to imitate Michael Graves, and didn't quite fail...

But then, they did Riley Towers... yuck. and plenty of other not so innovative and/or downright ugly buildings.

Their recent work is promising though. They definitely seem to be wanting to make a name for themselves. I wish them the best.

And I do like the idea of using someone local.. but for such a big project, I hope they were the best choice. We'll see.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060523/LOCAL/60523026

Convention Center architects named

Indianapolis-based RATIO Architects, who designed the Indiana State Museum in Indianapolis, was selected today by state officials to serve as lead designer of the convention center expansion.

They'll be joined by a team of three associate architects, all from Indiana. They are BSA Lifestructures, Blackburn Architects and Domain Architecture.
The convention center expansion is part of a $950 million project that includes the construction of the new Lucas Oil Stadium. The RCA Dome, home to the Indianapolis Colts, will be torn down in 2008 when the new stadium is complete.

The convention center will cover the area now used by the RCA Dome, with construction to be completed in 2010.

I think Ratio (http://www.ratioarchitects.com/) is probably the most experienced and talented design firm in town. They are certainly the most sensitive design company when it comes to historical, contextual design. They designed Lockerbie Marketplace, the Omni Severin addition, Historic Landmarks' Kuhn House Addition, downtown Marriott, Anthem HQ, and Emmis Communications HQ. They were responsible for the adaptive reuse of the old Indianapolis Rubber Company into the Farm Bureau HQ and the historic renovation of the Century Building. They also assisted in the design of Conseco and Market Tower.

They did not design Riley Towers. Emporis lists them as having been involved, but I don't remember that. If they were, it was something real minor. The last major exterior work on the building was repainting and the metal bandings around the top, which was done by Halstead & Assoc.

Hopefully they and the team will have more say in the convention center design.

Domain Architecture is my friend's company - very good choice. He's done mainly smaller projects like the Haughville Branch library and 111 S. Meridian, but he's very progressive and creative.

Question for forumers, does anyone know the name of this apartment complex? Does anyone have any history or info on it, I'm intrigued by it (to say the least) It's on 21st and Tibbs:

http://inside465.com/misc/buildings1.png

http://inside465.com/misc/buildings2.png

http://inside465.com/misc/buildings3.png

http://inside465.com/misc/buildings4.png

http://inside465.com/misc/buildings5.png

http://inside465.com/misc/buildings6.png

http://inside465.com/misc/buildings7.png

http://inside465.com/misc/buildings8.png

http://inside465.com/misc/buildings9.png

http://inside465.com/misc/buildings10.png

^^ :dunno:

^ I felt the same way, I have no idea what the hell it is. I'm thinking about going to the area this weekend or next to check it out (it's not in a particullary nice area).

what is this?!?!?!?!
http://inside465.com/misc/buildings6.png

^ I felt the same way, I have no idea what the hell it is. I'm thinking about going to the area this weekend or next to check it out (it's not in a particullary nice area).

what is this?!?!?!?!
http://inside465.com/misc/buildings6.png
Storage? Detention area? living quarters for people who can't have any contact with sunlight? I dunno. It's weird though. That is one totally abandoned area regardless. I see 3 or 4 cars. (slight exageration)

Another strange thing in the city, the Keystone Towers:

http://inside465.com/misc/kt01.png

http://inside465.com/misc/kt02.png

http://inside465.com/misc/kt03.png


I found the website, looks like they're apartments now ($475 a month for 780 sq feet?)
http://keystone-towers.com/.

DT view:
http://keystone-towers.com/WebSite/photogallery/Picture%20001.jpg

Another strange thing in the city, the Keystone Towers:

http://insidde465.com/misc/kt01.png

http://insided465.com/misc/kt02.png

http://inside4d65.com/misc/kt03.png


I found the website, looks like they're apartments now ($475 a month for 780 sq feet?)
http://keystone-towers.com/.

DT view:
http://keystodne-towers.com/WebSite/photogallery/Picture%20001.jpg


There are small multi-story towers randomly placed all over town. I've never understood that, blocks and blocks and miles of ranch style housing... then density in one small spot? Who decided to build that there and why? Why not build where density is needed and actually charge a decent rate for rent?

I think a friend of mine once lived in that building. It was essentially a crackhouse at the time.

I understand the renovation though... From their website: "1 Block from the Monon Trail". Cashing in...

As for the previous complex, perhaps they're housing for the blind? They don't need many windows, have less of a need for space, and don't drive. (hopefully)

Yeah, I guess the blind wouldn't realize that the siding is god-awful. It still doesn't explain what looks like passages that connect the buildings. My only guess is that it was a large scale housing project (looks like everything was built the same years) that is now abandonded.

This is another mystery, WHY WAS THIS BUILT?!?

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/8209/renplace0nj.png

It's like a suburban neighborhood right in the middle of the city.

^^ where is that??

This is another mystery, WHY WAS THIS BUILT?!?

No one to blame but the zoning comission.

^^ where is that??
Ft. Wayne and St. Clair, close to Mass Ave

Ft. Wayne and St. Clair, close to Mass Ave


Those were the first new construction buildings in the Lockerbie district. I always did hate them. They were considered nice 20 years ago though. I vaguely remember when they went in, that was one of the most blighted areas in the city at the time, and they were considered very progressive. They're condos by the way. Duplexes and Quads anyway.

This was at a time when old historic houses in Lockerbie were selling for as low as $5,000... really... The city was so happy that anyone would invest in that area that they let anyone build just about anything.... and voila!

but how many R&D bldgs are that tall, if any? i know there are tall hospitals but i don't know if there are different needs/codes...

Looks like there are some 10 story research buildings under construction around the country.

http://www.smootconstruction.com/html/medical.html

It really is a joke that so soon after completing a building, they are complaining about needing more space.

Those were the first new construction buildings in the Lockerbie district. I always did hate them. They were considered nice 20 years ago though. I vaguely remember when they went in, that was one of the most blighted areas in the city at the time, and they were considered very progressive. They're condos by the way. Duplexes and Quads anyway.

This was at a time when old historic houses in Lockerbie were selling for as low as $5,000... really... The city was so happy that anyone would invest in that area that they let anyone build just about anything.... and voila!

and they arent abandoned--rather well kept, even though they are a better fit for Brownsburg. Moochie's right--the city was desperate for investment in that area, and these are the kind of fortresses that could have been built at that time. I would imagine before too many years the land underneath will be more valuable than the condos themselves, and they'll go.

There are small multi-story towers randomly placed all over town. I've never understood that, blocks and blocks and miles of ranch style housing... then density in one small spot? Who decided to build that there and why? Why not build where density is needed and actually charge a decent rate for rent?

I think a friend of mine once lived in that building. It was essentially a crackhouse at the time.

I understand the renovation though... From their website: "1 Block from the Monon Trail". Cashing in...

As for the previous complex, perhaps they're housing for the blind? They don't need many windows, have less of a need for space, and don't drive. (hopefully)

Not the greatest neighborhood, and I dont know if I would trust a developer who cant even spellcheck his website--
AERIAL
not
ARIAL.

Signed,
Curmudgeon

Interesting "suburbs in the city" pics. FYI, to my knowledge many cities have something like that which was usually built in blighted areas in the 70's and 80's as a way to entice people "downtown."

I need to come get a tour of those areas in Indy sometime. I also need a tour of the near west side. I was aware of The Mexican district on W Washington as well as the Lauter Lofts, but I did not know that the entire west side of the river was being gentrified.

Question for forumers, does anyone know the name of this apartment complex? Does anyone have any history or info on it, I'm intrigued by it (to say the least) It's on 21st and Tibbs:

http://inside465.com/misc/buildings1.png

http://inside465.com/misc/buildings2.png

http://inside465.com/misc/buildings3.png

http://inside465.com/misc/buildings4.png

http://inside465.com/misc/buildings5.png

http://inside465.com/misc/buildings6.png

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http://inside465.com/misc/buildings10.png

I lived at this complex. It was called Arbor Village. I dont know what it is called now. When I was there, it was a predominantly black, working-class community. I lived there in the mid 90's when I went to School 67.

The community was primarily built around 1969 (as apparent by the building styles)to accomodate students at the then growing IUPUI, but was never really popular with students. My aunt lived in the complex in the 80's when she was still at IU. The complex has many different floorplans, as well as different building types, almost as if there is six smaller apartment complexes in one. Many of the buildings in the back of the complex are painted blue-gray and are boxy and bland. Crime, drugs, and poverty run throughout the complex.

On a more personal note, the place was a hellhole. Still, the complex was very beautiful, with a park in the southeast corner. We would play in the trails and alleys that wind through the complex. I could go on but I don't want to bore anyone with my "story".

http://static.flickr.com/44/152440949_fa4c488bb4_o.jpg
Circled in red was my family's apartment at 3547 Scarlet Oak Court.
The yellow outlines represent three dilapidated apartment buildings which were demolished in 2002.
Here are some more pictures:
http://image.apartmentguide.com/263/49235/photos/quickchange-1131486529327.jpg
http://image.apartmentguide.com/263/49235/photos/quickchange-1131486526764.jpg
http://image.apartmentguide.com/263/49235/photos/quickchange-1131486527840.jpg
http://image.apartmentguide.com/263/49235/photos/quickchange-1131486525570.jpg

I dont know anything about the Keystone Towers, other than it is a high rise ghetto.

I too am confused as to why towers are randomly placed around the city.

As for that shit built next to School 2 in the Lockerbie area, it's not terrible, but I don't care for it. That's what you get when you combine desperation with bad planners.

The Riley Area duplexes (I don't know the name) are very nice inside. I have a friend who has lived in one for years. They are lofts with 1 bedroom. Some may have the loft converted to a 2nd bedroom. I had contemplated buying one, not because they look great on the outside, but the fact they have a small yard and are in a prime location!

As for "Keystone Towrers," I also used to know someone who lived there years ago while in school. The hallway smelled like urine! The views were great though. It is nice to see they are getting renovated.

The Riley Area duplexes (I don't know the name) are very nice inside. I have a friend who has lived in one for years. They are lofts with 1 bedroom. Some may have the loft converted to a 2nd bedroom. I had contemplated buying one, not because they look great on the outside, but the fact they have a small yard and are in a prime location!
And the price is right! I've looked too. I think the density is appropriate for the area (notwithstanding Riley Towers) but the design is terrible, particularly the driveways! What the hell is with that? Everything in downtown is alleyway parking except for this place.

Speaking of driveways to the road, has anybody driven around Fall Creek Place Phase IV? There are two houses going in there on Broadway around 26th that are straight out of suburbia. One has a driveway off the road that goes straight into a side-attached garage. Another has a driveway that makes a left turn and then goes into an attached garage. Not only that, but the house designs are totally out-of-character with the remaining houses in the area (what few there are) and the rest of the Fall Creek Place development.

I was in the area after lunch, so I snapped some pictures of those houses I was talking about.

The silly house:
http://mypage.iu.edu/~ccorr/Broad/Broadway%20and%2026th%20001.JPG

With this dumbass garage:
http://mypage.iu.edu/~ccorr/Broad/Broadway%20and%2026th%20002.JPG

Across the street from this house:
http://mypage.iu.edu/~ccorr/Broad/Broadway%20and%2026th%20003.JPG

Down the street from this other silly house:
http://mypage.iu.edu/~ccorr/Broad/Broadway%20and%2026th%20005.JPG

In this row of houses:
http://mypage.iu.edu/~ccorr/Broad/Broadway%20and%2026th%20006.JPG

I can't really fault the last one TOO much. It's on a corner lot, so there's nowhere for a garage to go. And at least the design is in line with the rest of the Fall Creek Place development. I don't know what the hell they were thinking with that other house.

Some shots from West St, just for cwilson758. It's damn near impossible to get a good shot of the building because of trees and a total lack of sidewalks in the area. You'd have to stand on the 65 off-ramp or in the middle of West St. to get any decent perspective.

http://mypage.iu.edu/~ccorr/Informatics/Informatics%20001.JPG

http://mypage.iu.edu/~ccorr/Informatics/Informatics%20002.JPG

http://mypage.iu.edu/~ccorr/Informatics/Informatics%20003.JPG

NaptownBoy, thanks for the reply! Was the entire complex (the houses and apartment buildings) built in the last 60's or just your apartment building?

Do you know anything about these apartments:
http://inside465.com/misc/buildings6.png

Yeah, I guess the blind wouldn't realize that the siding is god-awful. It still doesn't explain what looks like passages that connect the buildings. My only guess is that it was a large scale housing project (looks like everything was built the same years) that is now abandonded.

This is another mystery, WHY WAS THIS BUILT?!?

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/8209/renplace0nj.png

It's like a suburban neighborhood right in the middle of the city.

I went to the school you see in this picture for a year. The surrounding neighborhood is actually pretty well kept and not too horrid looking. It works well with the school.

I really like the building! I envision Penn Tower looking like this, but much taller!

Thanks CorrND!

I really like the building! I envision Penn Tower looking like this, but much taller!

Thanks CorrND!

Speaking of the Penn Tower...

I've kept mum for the past few days because I wasn't sure what's going on.. thing is, another investor, a "major developer" from Chicago has signed on to the project. In fact, you could now say that Shawn Cannon and Greg Allen are more like minor players on this project..

What this means for the tower, I'm not sure. I think perhaps it's good news. More money from an experienced developer who usually builds tall is a good thing right? All i know is that they're looking into building taller, but I don't want to get anyone's hopes up. I really don't know.

At any rate, I think that most of the inside info i've gotten to this point is probably outdated.

Yeah, I guess the blind wouldn't realize that the siding is god-awful. It still doesn't explain what looks like passages that connect the buildings. My only guess is that it was a large scale housing project (looks like everything was built the same years) that is now abandonded.

This is another mystery, WHY WAS THIS BUILT?!?

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/8209/renplace0nj.png

It's like a suburban neighborhood right in the middle of the city.

Renaissance Place was built on empty land that had been cleared for the City's Project H, which was a federal urban renewal project. The first three buildings of James Whitcomb Riley Center were built and the rest of the project was never completed. So the City had all of this empty land. Enter apartment developer (and Union Station renovator) Bob Borns. Build suburban buildings downtown, and voila, they came.

http://www.oongawa.com/dt/riley2.jpg

While I was digging through my archives....The original INB Plaza rendering.

http://www.oongawa.com/dt/inb.jpg

Thank god all the Riley Towers weren't built; it would've been Renaissance Center x50.

I'm mixed about the whole INB complex. It would've added a lot to the skyline, but it looks very uninviting. It's a shame they demolished the Flatironesque building that once stood in the general area..

Thank god all the Riley Towers weren't built; it would've been Renaissance Center x50.

I'm mixed about the whole INB complex. It would've added a lot to the skyline, but it looks very uninviting. It's a shame they demolished the Flatironesque building that once stood in the general area..

Beats the hell out of the parking lot that's there now...

More from the archive vaults....Here's what INB replaced - the Knights of Pythias building.

http://www.oongawa.com/dt/pythias2.jpg

http://www.oongawa.com/dt/pythias1.jpg