It was all over the Herald this morning. It said 60 stories (2 towers) each unit will have a ceiling height of 10 ft. Looks like ago :)

"We have plenty of buyers," said Tibor Hollo, chairman of Florida East Coast Realty, who is developing Villa Magna, two towers on Brickell Avenue, which he said was the last available waterfront parcel. Since his first building opened for sale in February, Mr. Hollo said, 167 of the 787 units have sold, each at more than $1 million.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/19/us/19miami.html

where in the herald?

"We have plenty of buyers," said Tibor Hollo, chairman of Florida East Coast Realty, who is developing Villa Magna, two towers on Brickell Avenue, which he said was the last available waterfront parcel. Since his first building opened for sale in February, Mr. Hollo said, 167 of the 787 units have sold, each at more than $1 million.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/19/us/19miami.html

This is bound to make on forumer I know very unhappy. And if this is true, it casts doubt on comments of other forumers about the project languishing.

Dale :wave: , my friend :rock: ,
This Villa Magna is a go,
If Tibor Hollo :) lives another year,
His two towers here well be going vertical by then,
I've been to the sales center on 1200 brickell bay drive, and the Model of this project is a beauty itself :cheers2: , Its a go :okay: , And I see it in my dreams of 2012, Completed, both towers at 57 floors !!! :applause:

It is stunning.

Chuck, the paper said 60 stories but whatever it is keep em coming

Is there a recent rendering of this?

I really do not believe this project is going to fly. Even if 167 units have sold to date (and I doubt that), given today's market, I anticipate sales will bog down in the very near future, if not already....What type of presales gets them their construction financing?

I really do not believe this project is going to fly. Even if 167 units have sold to date (and I doubt that), given today's market, I anticipate sales will bog down in the very near future, if not already....What type of presales gets them their construction financing?
:speech:
My Fairweather " Friend " :rock: , your killing me :gunz: , but its the competition of your not liking Villa Magna :applause: Twin 57 floors towers which are up and completed in my dreams of 2012 :righton: , Nothing is going to stop the Grrrrrrrreat !!! Tibor Hollo :old: :okay: , and they will start late this year on tower 1, and complete tower 1 in early to mid 2009, and Tower 2 should be completed by 2011 :cool: .

I saY IT AGAIN :soon: :dj: ,

Go Cranes My Fairweather " Friend " !!! :banana: :cheer: :pepper:

usually 60 percent gets them a loan to construct the tower.

i recall there was about 700 or so units 800 to be safe in villa magna
so that would mean that they need about 420-480 units presold to get there loan...

Updates anyone?

Is there a recent rendering of this?

www.villamagna.com

Most lenders are running at 70 to 75% pre-sales requirement these days. This loan is going to be fairly massive. As profit margins go down, the % goes up. The lenders want their loan covered by some margin w/ sales. So if it is a $300M loan they'd want some higher number than that in sales.

usually 60 percent gets them a loan to construct the tower.

i recall there was about 700 or so units 800 to be safe in villa magna
so that would mean that they need about 420-480 units presold to get there loan...

Then how is it that some developers, notably Novarre, break ground prior to sales ?

Maybe they finance in-house, I don't know. Related might be another example of a developer for whom this never seems an issue.

So.....would they have to sell out 75% of the entire project to line up financing?

If it is a large public company, projects can be financed internally through the company's debt. It's just a matter of treasury management. The financing is not based on the individual asset being financed, but the company as a whole w/ a certain debt to equity ratio (usually 2 to 1 up to 4 to 1).

All the projects I work on are single purpose entities and they are secured by the pre-sales, land and guarantees of the sponsors. Some projects are not guaranteed and the pre-sales are even more important.

Then how is it that some developers, notably Novarre, break ground prior to sales ?

Maybe they finance in-house, I don't know. Related might be another example of a developer for whom this never seems an issue.

Then how is it that some developers, notably Novarre, break ground prior to sales ? Maybe they finance in-house, I don't know. Related might be another example of a developer for whom this never seems an issue.That is it. Some developers, another notable is Intel Development (Avenue), will use internal financing to get the project rolling as they begin sales, they inevitably will use bank financing.
Although Related certainly could do this, I don't believe that they do. Like Fortune, Related would likely sell enough apartments with hard contracts to go to bank an negotiate great terms on a construction loan. Developers that use there own money take on significantly more risk, but may be able to negotiate better loan terms for doing so.
On classic story of a developer that tried to finance his own tower was the Green/Blue/White Diamond developer. The Blue and Green went up and he tried to take the money from B & G to finance the White without a bank. B & G's sales slowed to a halt and he got in trouble. Constuction on the White Diamond halted, the cranes left the site and the project sat for about 8 years until Merco bought the 6 story skeleton, renamed it Akoya and finished it off.

Bingo.

People forget that this business has a significant amount of risk. You couldn't get 20 to 40% (or in some cases even more) returns without risk.

If you can wait longer to sell, lock in your costs w/ greater certainty and then sell when you really need to, you are going to make more profit. The risk is that the market softens, and you can't sell when you need to sell. The risk at pre-selling early is that your costs keep going up but your revenue is locked in, thus reducing profits.

Like i said... it's a risky game one way or the other, but the rewards are quite nice.

Developers that use there own money take on significantly more risk, but may be able to negotiate better loan terms for doing so.

Is Tibor Hollo in a position to self-finance, or is he dependent upon outsiders? If so, how soon can we expect him to have financing in place, if ever??

I live in Club at Brickell Bay and am worried about Villa Magna blocking my views of the water, given that Hollo also built the Club he should keep the owners of that building in mind and not build something so damn tall right next door

you bought a city view and thats what you will get
if you wanted water views you would have bought
at jade facing east...

florida law does not protect view corridors... and tibor hollow was thinking about the cash not the views from the club why do you think he built that one first. met should have built met 2 and 3 first before met 1 now they will have hard time with sales becuase of epic blocking the view...

you bought a city view and thats what you will get
if you wanted water views you would have bought
at jade facing east...

florida law does not protect view corridors... and tibor hollow was thinking about the cash not the views from the club why do you think he built that one first. met should have built met 2 and 3 first before met 1 now they will have hard time with sales becuase of epic blocking the view...

Although I would think at this point that Met 3 is not having problems with sales. And of course Met 2 is largely office.

you bought a city view and thats what you will get
if you wanted water views you would have bought
at jade facing east...

florida law does not protect view corridors... and tibor hollow was thinking about the cash not the views from the club why do you think he built that one first. met should have built met 2 and 3 first before met 1 now they will have hard time with sales becuase of epic blocking the view...

I know the law doesn't protect the view, I just don't get why these towers have to be so damn tall, the Club is 43, the Mark is 38 I think, 57 is a bit much. Anyway, I am just glad that it will be a looonng time before these things get built. That is, if they get built at all, I don't think the numbers from that May 19 article are that encouraging, if they were correct that means as of last month they had sold less than 25% of the units

By the way, is there a way to search these forums? I wanted to read up on ICON and some other buildings but can't figure out how to search

if they sold 25 percent in reality it means they have sold 50 percent of one tower..... which is good considering its 800$ sq ft condos....

i was in a corner unit at blue today great view going for about 900k which means 450 a sq ft... almost 2000 sq ft unit...

Is Tibor Hollo in a position to self-finance, or is he dependent upon outsiders? If so, how soon can we expect him to have financing in place, if ever??

My Fair WeatherFriend :rock: , lol, Yes Tibor Hollo :righton: is the President and co owner of East Coast Railroad, He has so much money, its like Armando Codina :okay: , both men can start projects without financing , Its in their savings banks, Villa Magna :cheer: Will be built and both towers will be completed by 2011. :righton:

Not for anything, but 2011? What the hell is that? And you should know I respect and fully realize Mr. Hollo's intelligence, which is why I do not believe the towers will be built. Sure he has funds available, but he is not going to use his own money to build projects doomed to failure.....especially if he has already cashed out of the deal!! And, if you know anything at all, it is common knowledge that he has, in fact, cashed out! Or so rumor has it...chuckle...

tibor hollo cash out on a project he would have to be dead to do something like that... he would redesign it before cashing out on it...

the man has enough bank to build miami 5 times over if he wanted to...

tibor hollo cash out on a project he would have to be dead to do something like that... he would redesign it before cashing out on it...

the man has enough bank to build miami 5 times over if he wanted to...


I still am not impressed by the number of units sold, and given the way the market is (and despite the eternal optimism on this board I don't think the condo market will be that great for the next few years, considering the literally thousands of units that will deluge the market from Met, Plaza, Icon, etc.), I think an apartment with 700 units all priced at 600k or above is not going anywhere, just not enough buyers at that price point in my opinion.

Also this report from a realtor explicitly says "DO NOT RECOMMEND" Villa Magna

http://www.beatrizproperties.com/downloads/PreCon_MarketAnalysis.pdf

its one of the last waterfront properties in brickell
it will sell for that and much more in the future and people will pay
the only other waterfront property going up is swire on brickell island behind the mandarin and that will be 800 sq ft starting price

Not for anything, but 2011? What the hell is that? And you should know I respect and fully realize Mr. Hollo's intelligence, which is why I do not believe the towers will be built. Sure he has funds available, but he is not going to use his own money to build projects doomed to failure.....especially if he has already cashed out of the deal!! And, if you know anything at all, it is common knowledge that he has, in fact, cashed out! Or so rumor has it...chuckle...

Uh it would be nice if you would live up to your name. You seem to really hate this project, all your post reflect that. I dont care about that, hate what you want. But its getting old, move on.

I am still on meds from my wisdom teeth surgery, so don't hold me accountable if this is retarded:

Should this be moved into the development section?

I'm thinking yes.

Rx and Rider.....so clueless. This thing is dead in the water, but no worries, Tibor is whole! Tibor is incredible. If either of you, Rx or Rider, could provide information on the project which would lead us to believe it may in fact be feasible, I would be appreciative. Otherwise, do not suggest I "go away." Hugs & kisses......

^ Happiness rides on whether or not Villa Magna suceeds of fails.

Perhaps Tibor ran over his dog ?

i still dont see any evidence behind his statement that its just not going to happen?

with ice, onyx II, met III not happening and other high end luxury projects there is a great need for a luxury project difference is this one has a brickell bay drive address and looks out at city, bay, beach views and is in a really safe neighborhood did i say brickell...

the 4 seasons is 1000k a sq ft
and jade is 600 sq ft

at 600 sq ft sales price this building is priced right and considering some people might want to move out of there old condos on bricekell and upgrade to more modern ameneties or avoid an assessment on an old building they have lived in for the last 10-20 years this would be a great option....

the towers will get built even if tibor has to go rentals on one of them he will build it becuase he can condo convert and then sell it at 1000 sq ft each...



now will the real slim shady please stand up or shut up or sit down or whatever

Nope! Wrong again.......

Also curious about an ad in the Miami Herald a couple weeks ago that referred to Coalco / Villa Magna??? Has Tibor lost or given up controp of the project?

Also curious about an ad in the Miami Herald a couple weeks ago that referred to Coalco / Villa Magna??? Has Tibor lost or given up controp of the project?

My Fair WeatherFriend :hi: , I just got Tibor Hollo's :righton: home phone number from the sales ladies at the Sale center, 1200 Brickell Bay Drive :cool: , the ladies just talked to him there today, saying how great the sales of the first tower was going fast up to almost 35 % :hm: , and saying that a Late Fall, 2006 groundbreaking :applause: on the first tower will start, with NO PROBLEM :cheer: :okay: .

^^ he wont believe you Chuck, why waste your time.

lol chuck call tibor hollo and tell em to build us a 1000 footer next

My Fair WeatherFriend :hi: , I just got Tibor Hollo's :righton: home phone number from the sales ladies at the Sale center, 1200 Brickell Bay Drive :cool: , the ladies just talked to him there today, saying how great the sales of the first tower was going fast up to almost 35 % :hm: , and saying that a Late Fall, 2006 groundbreaking :applause: on the first tower will start, with NO PROBLEM :cheer: :okay: .


You say you got Hollo's number but it sounds like you only spoke with the sales people and I don't find that a particularly convincing source, if there were problems (and I'm not saying there are in fact, only hypothetically), it's not like they would say "oh we aren't sure about groundbreaking, it may or may not happen". My only point is I would take what a salesperson says about a project with a grain of salt. Now if you talked to Hollo personally (and I'm surprised they would give away his home number, by the way), that's a different story.

the boy is a mess he doesnt know what hes talking about...

i refuse to post anything else on here and would just shut down the this thread
i dont talk to ignorant people...

the boy is a mess he doesnt know what hes talking about...

i refuse to post anything else on here and would just shut down the this thread
i dont talk to ignorant people...

You're right, I'm sorry. I should have taken cheery statements allegedly said by biased salespeople as undisputable proof that the project will go on. My apologies if I'm looking for FACT and not BS hype from salespeople who would say anything to increase sales beyond 17% of the total units proposed after 6 months on the market.

Close the thread, I could care less. We'll wait until Fall 2006 and see if groundbreaking occurs then.

You're right, I'm sorry. I should have taken cheery statements allegedly said by biased salespeople as undisputable proof that the project will go on. My apologies if I'm looking for FACT and not BS hype from salespeople who would say anything to increase sales beyond 17% of the total units proposed after 6 months on the market.

Close the thread, I could care less. We'll wait until Fall 2006 and see if groundbreaking occurs then.

I dont think he is talking about you, I think he is talking about Fairweather.

seriously though.. im suspecting dude2006 is fairweatherfriend...

Nope....he is definitely more objective, though equally intelligent! He sees through all your bullsh1t! Fall 2006, yeah......

And Chuck, you got Tibor's home #. Did you call him?

I suspect it is more fashionably cynical than objective to question this project.

The biggest problem that I see this project has is ICON Brickell which is also bayfront, is IMO a far better product and is cheaper (per sqft) too if I remember correctly. Its hard to claim you are "the last" bayfront property when one just up the road is also up for sale (though admitedly it doesn't have the wide bay view with Brickell Key in the way).

The biggest problem that I see this project has is ICON Brickell which is also bayfront, is IMO a far better product and is cheaper (per sqft) too if I remember correctly. Its hard to claim you are "the last" bayfront property when one just up the road is also up for sale (though admitedly it doesn't have the wide bay view with Brickell Key in the way).


They are both nice projects, but aside from being cheaper Icon has the advantage that at least one of the towers (Tower 1) should be ready by 2008, while people are saying this one "might" be ready by 2009 (although I agree the view from Magna would be nicer overall than from Icon). I wonder if Hollo might consider lowering the price? Although I suppose it is almost unheard of for a developer to lower the price midway through a project

what building is in that location now if any?

i hope they dont have to take out one of those famouse Miami vice buildings.but If its one of those ugly 15-20 story brown buildings than good lol but either way as long as its taller im all for it !!!!

what building is in that location now if any?


Didn't mean to get off topic but if you're talking about Icon it is on the lot immediately to the south of the bridge over the Miami river, there was an old Sheraton hotel that was already torn down to make room for the 3 towers

yes... and if you would like to see the implosion of the sheraton hotel...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtmwJVmBvXg

Wow....quiet out there. No word on Villa Magna. No word means no good. Writing is on the wall!!!

^ Hope springs eternal.

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM :(

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM :(


Can we get Chuck to call Hollo at home for news? He said he was given his number...

^ Chuck's got a pretty good prognostication record without his having to bother Tibor at home.

I say this one (like the rest of Hollo's project) is going to fly ... if only to piss off fairweatherfriend.

^ Chuck's got a pretty good prognostication record without his having to bother Tibor at home.

I say this one (like the rest of Hollo's project) is going to fly ... if only to piss off fairweatherfriend.


Here Here!!!

read the news paper morons, it was all over the rea estate section today in the words of young joc its going down

read the news paper morons, it was all over the rea estate section today in the words of young joc its going down

What are you talking about, the only thing I saw in today's paper were advertisements

I think he might be talking about this article (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/breaking_news/15003029.htm) from a few days ago. I'd post the text, but I think it was recently posted. In the words of Napoleon Dynamite "Ugh! Gross! Freakin' idiot!"

Other people on this forum have said construction is due to start in late 2006, assuming that occurs does anyone know if they are going to do both towers at the same time, and if not which tower will start first? I'm hoping it's the North tower

By the way, what is it with the lack of a search feature in these forums? It really takes away from its functionality

Other people on this forum have said construction is due to start in late 2006, assuming that occurs does anyone know if they are going to do both towers at the same time, and if not which tower will start first?

Dude :banana: :cucumber: :wave: !!!, your getting a Dell :scouserd: , lol.
Yes :cool: , its the north tower going up first this december, 2006.
The last time I was at the 1200 Brickell bay drive sales office, the ladies :nuts: show me the model of the two towers, but they said the north tower is selling faster than the south tower, which will break ground a year later in late , 2007 :cheers: .

Dude :banana: :cucumber: :wave: !!!, your getting a Dell :scouserd: , lol.
Yes :cool: , its the north tower going up first this december, 2006.
The last time I was at the 1200 Brickell bay drive sales office, the ladies :nuts: show me the model of the two towers, but they said the north tower is selling faster than the south tower, which will break ground a year later in late , 2007 :cheers: .


Great, thanks for the info

Due to....yeah and I anticipate they anticipate to be selling out. This all means nothing. Project is going to tank...or so I think.

Due to....yeah and I anticipate they anticipate to be selling out. This all means nothing. Project is going to tank...or so I <b>thing</b>.

Think. You mean think. And no, hopefully it all pulls through and Villa Magna ends up being a huge addition to the Miami skyline and gripes you every time you see it.

Miami is on fire right now! Miami is having soo many new buildings! They are booming for real!

It's REALLY too bad that Villa Magna will be covering up the beautiful, albeit simple, back of Espiritu Santo Plaza. That building is spectacular! From the back you can see how separate the guillotine front section is, and how it seems clamped on to the rest of the building. I love looking at it in the morning as you cross the causeway and the sunrise illuminates it. Villa Magna will block all that out. It may not be a supertall but it is sculpturally amazing.

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1103/001final22se3.jpg

this is what I'm talking about

It's REALLY too bad that Villa Magna will be covering up the beautiful, albeit simple, back of Espiritu Santo Plaza. That building is spectacular! From the back you can see how separate the guillotine front section is, and how it seems clamped on to the rest of the building. I love looking at it in the morning as you cross the causeway and the sunrise illuminates it. Villa Magna will block all that out. It may not be a supertall but it is sculpturally amazing.

I agree Arch, and along with the Wachovia (which has aged extremely well) the BEST of the Miami skyline, imo.

And, yes, also agreed that a non "supertall" or not even particularly tall by any standard building CAN make an iconic statement.

Santo does it by leaps and bounds as does a recently completed awesome building (similar size) here in Philly called the Cira Center....which I'd post a pic of but I remain a computer dork. :)

Anyway, agreed. Blocking the view of Santo from ANY angle cannot be a good thing. It's superb.

Cila Center:

http://k43.pbase.com/v3/67/580567/2/47292445.phila9y.jpg

:)

OK...this will most likely backfire (partly because my user info says I can't post images for some reason) but here is an ATTEMPT to post my first image here. The Cira Center in Philadelphia.

(If it doesn't work, please be kind to this poor soul still stuck in the 20th Century...)

http://www.thehub.com/images/ciracentre.jpg

Hey! It worked! (applause for the old fart)

And THANKS for stealing my thunder, Meepy....j/k.

Anyway, neither shot shows how good it plays off the skyline...even though it's hardly a supertall. Like Espirito Santo, though, it shows that really good things can come in smaller packages.

OUT OF TOPIC:

LOL. I was on mt way to the LA Forum and I saw the name of the title really fast and for some reason I thought it said "Small Vagina." Stupid, I know... but it made me smile. :tongue3:

http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/9920/cd8120r15adh2.jpg

The beautiful geometry of ESP

Arch, don't fret Villa Magna will never be built!

Arch, don't fret Villa Magna will never be built!

My Fair Weather Friend :bowtie: , your a " ICON " :) ,
Is it okay to say that, I know its aginst the rules :dunno: ,I have to ask Toucano :bow: or Jasonhouse :bow: , if it's okay, lol.
:wave: but You just don't Quit, do ya, You really hate this project by My old friend Tibor Hollo :cheer: .

My Fair weather friend :hi: , Have you ever seen the movie " Jason Vs. Freddie ", when Freddie said to Jason, " Don't you Ever Die !!! ", LOL. :cheers:

Has anyone heard anything new on this project? Chuck had reported a few months ago that groundbreaking on the first tower was to happen in fall 2006, anyone know if it looks like that will happen?

Dead in the water....Chuck?

Heh....

Almost sold out at this point.

;)

That's great news!!!!

Are we using reverse mojo now ? :)

if this keeps up, we're gonna have cross mojination, thus ultimately, resulting in everyone's head exploding

BIG NEWS COMING!!!

Gee lemme guess... its dead?

If it is dead, then we can all be thrilled for our pathetic friend fairweatherfriend.

If it is dead, then we can all be thrilled for our pathetic friend fairweatherfriend.


Fairweather's uninsightful prediction aside, the lack of news (good or bad) on this project does not bode well I don't think. I'm questioning whether the project really will start this fall as the salespeople told Chuck it would

Lack of news on Hollo projects is neither here nor there. All of his projects tend to move slowly. Opera Tower took forever to get going. He's patient. He's methodical. And he's out to develop this particular project just to spite fairweatherfriend.

BIG NEWS COMING!!!

Yes !!!, My Fair WeatherFriend :) , Villa Magna's South Condo Tower breaks ground in
:eek2: December, 2006 :eek2:
, with a Huge white tent party on the same site :cheers: .

Great news Chuck!!! :) :cheers: :wave: :cheer: :cheers1: :banana2:

Is that the BIG NEWS! ? ;)

Yes !!!, My Fair WeatherFriend :) , Villa Magna's South Condo Tower breaks ground in
:eek2: December, 2006 :eek2:
, with a Huge white tent party on the same site :cheers: .


Interesting, but do you know why the south and not the north tower will be going up first?





Originally Posted by ChuckScraperMiami#1 on July 21, 2006
Dude !!!, your getting a Dell , lol.
Yes , its the north tower going up first this december, 2006.
The last time I was at the 1200 Brickell bay drive sales office, the ladies show me the model of the two towers, but they said the north tower is selling faster than the south tower, which will break ground a year later in late , 2007 .

This forum is dead.

^^Sad but true...

yeah... where is everyone?

I was mourning the same thing. Fearing that as the boom slows, (not the bubble bursts) there just isn't enough new information to keep my apetite satisfied. I am coming to Miami at the end of the month and I will shoot as many projects on there way up as I can, and get them posted. My goal is to have at least one new image for every single thread.

Thanks, arch. dave has been carrying the forum on his shoulders. I know he's appreciate your contributions, as I know I will.

^good idea arch, cant wait to see em

Chuck ....Dale,

Give it a break. I am, in fact, insightful. Market is dead, as is this project. December?? Yeah, and then perhaps March...don't think so. But then again , if you are Tibor fans, he suffers no harm. My clown friends, they burn! As I predicted, anticipated...Will, go home!

Hugs and kisses.....

Chuck ....Dale,

Give it a break. I am, in fact, insightful. Market is dead, as is this project. December?? Yeah, and then perhaps March...don't think so. But then again , if you are Tibor fans, he suffers no harm. My clown friends, they burn! As I predicted, anticipated...Will, go home!

Hugs and kisses.....

You are in fact, pathetic. Give us a break.

No hugs and kisses.

You are in fact, pathetic. Give us a break.

No hugs and kisses.


I will probably be accused of conspiring with, or perhaps even being the same person as fairweatherfriend (as it's happened before), but I can kind of see his point. I too was surprised to learn that the project was going forward with the market the way it is, and no disrespect to Chuck but he just posts a conclusory message saying it's going to start in December but doesn't say whether that's just a hunch or where he got the info from (not to mention that the post was inconsistent with an earlier one in which he said that the north, and not the south, tower would be the first one being built). And it's a fact that this project was supposed to break ground several times in the past, only to be postponed.

It is one thing to doubt that a project will fly, because of the market, and another to constantly naysay the project for purely personal and emotional reasons.

But whereas the project may or may not fly, are you suggesting that the market is such that no project of this magnitude can succeed ? And are you innured to Hollo's track record and his historical long leadtimes ?

Also, I'm not aware of any past announced groundbreaking dates.

It is one thing to doubt that a project will fly, because of the market, and another to constantly naysay the project for purely personal and emotional reasons.

But whereas the project may or may not fly, are you suggesting that the market is such that no project of this magnitude can succeed ? And are you innured to Hollo's track record and his historical long leadtimes ?

Also, I'm not aware of any past announced groundbreaking dates.


I don't know about "announced" groundbreaking dates, but I do know that various "projected" groundbreaking dates have been thrown about that have come and gone. E.g.,

http://www.floridarealtyfinder.com/FloridaRealty_Brickell_VillaMagana.htm (February 2006)

http://www.rebateflorida.com/community.php?id=27 (May 2006)

My only point, again, is that since I don't know where Chuck got the info about December 2006, I am reluctant to treat it as gospel.

And similarly, Opera Tower passed one projected groundbreaking date after another ... and survived the naysayers. Lack of info and long leadtimes are neither here nor there.

And I'm not sure where Chuck got his info, but he's got a pretty good track record.

Seriously guys, I am an outsider. For personal reasons I do hope this Villa Magna goes up in flames. I have some insight as to how the deal was set up, so all you Tibor fans should not take offense. Believe me, smart man that he is, he is covered. Totally covered. If this project tanks, the only ones that get burned are the folks I know - people that you do not know. I respect all your opinions, and would not be so obnoxious if I truly believed the failure of this project would cause you harm.

So now tell me, why should I believe this project has any chance of succeeding?

Seriously guys, I am an outsider. For personal reasons I do hope this Villa Magna goes up in flames. I have some insight as to how the deal was set up, so all you Tibor fans should not take offense. Believe me, smart man that he is, he is covered. Totally covered. If this project tanks, the only ones that get burned are the folks I know - people that you do not know. I respect all your opinions, and would not be so obnoxious if I truly believed the failure of this project would cause you harm.

So now tell me, why should I believe this project has any chance of succeeding?

I do appreciate your point of view. But I think your question could just as easily be reversed. In other words, given Hollo's track record - and the fact that the market, though slowed, is clearly not dead - why is there any reason to believe that it would fail ?

It's all about underlying costs. Their cost basis is such that they need to command above market prices in order for the project to succeed. They were counting on prices increasing faster, or greater, than what we are seeing in the current market.

It's all about underlying costs. Their cost basis is such that they need to command above market prices in order for the project to succeed. They were counting on prices increasing faster, or greater, than what we are seeing in the current market.

I really Missed when My Fair WeatherFriend :dunno: ???, anyone know where's my old friend of knocking down one of my favorite Projects in Brickell:) .

You must be drinking heavily....do us all a favor and reply when you feel capable of doing so in english.

In addition, if you hear of any construction financing, I would wager heavily that it is NOT non-recourse.

You must be drinking heavily....do us all a favor and reply when you feel capable of doing so in english.

Lay off my friend Chuck. He was here long before you brought your forlorn ways, and has furnished us with credible information on many occaisions. You're just the johnny-come-lately who's popped by to poop on Villa Magna.

So what's the verdict on this one guys? My money would be on Chuck, due to his good (but not perfect) track record, but fairweatherfriend appears to have some good insider info backing up his persistent doubts...

Chuck, will we see cranes on this site in time for the Super Bowl in February '07?

This project sounds personal to Fair, what the story?

I seriously doubt this project is economically viable in the current market. i see all sorts of sales reports from product ranging from $175k a unit to $750k a unit on a weekly basis and I speak w/ Lenders (big ones... BofA, Wachovia, Corus, Ocean, HSBC, LaSalle, Regions/AmSouth) and they are extremely worried... they are becoming more and more conservative in their underwriting... Their credit committees are shooting down deals left and right, and they are watching their assets much more closely.

This building is very large, very expensive, and is being sold extremely late in a boom/bust cycle. It has a brand new building right next to it, that has about 25% of its units up for sale. It is just extremely unlikely that any lender would take a risk on this project or that any developer would put up the kind of cash required to build it without a good chunk of sales.

And of course sales people will tell you it is getting ready to start any time now... 1. they dont' make decisions and they don't usually have all the info. 2. they are in the business of selling and if they let it get out that you might be years from building the building, no one is going to buy, and 3. they are sales people and sales people are pretty generally scummy.

Obviously something on this parcel gets built... the question is what? and when?

FIRST OF ALL TIBOR HOLLO HAS ENOUGH CASH TO BUILD IT WITHOUT A LENDER THE MAN HAS A GREAT TRACK RECORD HE BROUGHT US THE RIVERGATE PLAZA WHICH IS NEXT TO THE BRICKELL BRIDGE AND THIS WAS THE FIRST CONDO PROJECT ON BRICKELL HE LATER BUILT THE TOWER NEAR OPERA TOWER BEFORE ANYONE EVER THOUGHT OF BUILDING CONDOS THERE.

HE CURRENTLY IS MARKETING THIS PROJECT TO NEWYORKERS AND THAT IS WHY YOU DONT HEAR MUCH ABOUT IT BECAUSE THE MARKETTING IS NOT BEING DONE HERE ITS BEING HANDLED BY "The Coalco management team"

WILL THIS PROJECT FLY?

LIKE THE NAME IMPLYS NEVER COUNT ON YOUR "fairweatherfriend's"

No one is going to build a pair of towers this size with cash. It's an absurd proposition. I don't care how rich you are.

This project is just going to keep slipping... Q4 '06... Q1 '07... Q2 '07... etc.

I'd just like to go on the record as saying... I like the project. I'm just doubtful that any project that isn't already at 65 to 75% presold already, being built any time soon.

A LITTLE INFO ON MR. HOLLO

MOST OF TIBORS PROJECTS WHERE MARKETED AS RENTAL BUILDINGS SO THE MAN HAS USED HIS OWN CASH BEFORE IN THE PAST
SO IS IT CRAZY TO USE YOUR OWN MONEY TO BUILD SOMETHING? NOT FOR TIBOR HOLLO

RENTAL PROPERTIES THAT TURNED CONDO INCLUDE

645-unit Brickell Bay Plaza apartment tower at 1200 Brickell Bay Drive
347-unit South Bayshore Tower a rental tower on Brickell Bay Drive
471-unit Bay Parc Plaza, a rental tower just north of the Omni
645-unit Opera Tower

"I wish I could build 10,000 units in Brickell and downtown," he says. "I could rent them all."





Tibor Hollo
Florida East Coast Realty
Credentials: Royalty personified, Hollo is one of the fathers of modern Miami, a seminal builder on Brickell Avenue and the developer of the original Omni complex, including the (now) Doubletree Grand Hotel. After a hiatus in the mid-1990s, he is back – again – with high-rise rental projects in his old Omni and Brickell-area stomping grounds.
Quote: “There is nothing worse than suburban sprawl. The only answer for the future, as more and more people come into the area, is vertical intensification … if I could build 10,000 units in the [downtown and Brickell] area I would, because I could rent them all.”

Call him the 50/50 Man because, in the course of 50 years, Tibor Hollo has built 50 million square feet of construction projects. The founder and president of Florida East Coast Realty, Tibor Hollo is credited with building the first high-rise building on Brickell Avenue in 1972: Rivergate Plaza. Other projects in Hollo’s resume include the Bay Parc Plaza, Venetia/The Grand, the Biscayne Bay Marriott Hotel and Marina, Plaza Venetia, Flamingo Plaza, Vizcaya Towers, Center House, Sans Souci Manor, Tropicana East, West Apartments, the Twin Lakes Racquet Club, the Omni complex, 888 Brickell Avenue, and a few government buildings such as the United Stated Justice Department Building in Downtown Miami. his latest project: the Club at Brickell Bay, a 43-story high-rise that is being promoted as “Miami’s Answer to Park Avenue.”



"CALL HIM CRAZY BUT HE HAS BEEN DOING THIS FOR HALF OF MIAMI'S LIFETIME 50+ YEARS MIAMI IS ONLY 100 YEARS OLD AS A CITY I THINK THE MAN KNOWS WHAT HE IS DOING AND EVEN SO HE CAN ALWAYS RENT THOSE UNITS"

If there's no market, if the math doesn't work, the project doesn't get built. Could care less how great a man Tibor is. As for marketing in NY - I am between both cities on a regular basis - have seen very little to speak of. Cannot remember the last time I saw an ad.

HE WILL BUILD IT AS RENTAL APTS IF IY DOESNT WORK OUT

AND NOTE TO (YOUR)SELF HE HAS BEEN DOING THIS LONGER THEN YOU HAVE BEEN ALIVE 56 YEARS DUDE NO POSSIBLE ARGUMENT YOU BRING UP COULD POSSIBLY DERAIL THIS PROJECT SO DROP IT....


I WILL GIVE YOU THIS ONE VILLA MAGNA WILL GET BUILT 99.9 PERCENT SURE
THE .1 FACTOR WOULD BE IF TIBOR HOLLO DIED THATS THE ONLY WAY THIS PROJECT WONT GO UP AND EVEN THAT IS UNLIKELY HIS WIDOW OR SON WOULD CONTINUE THE FAMILY BUSINESS OR HIS HEADS OF STAFF WOULD MAKE SURE IT TOOK OFF SO EVERYONE CAN PROFIT ONE LAST TIME BEFORE HEADING OFF TO ANOTHER COMPANY.

NOW ARGUE WITH 56 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE IF YOU WANT BUT IT WILL ONLY MAKE YOU LOOK LIKE A MAD MAN.



"THERES A WHOLE FLOCK OF ITALIANS WANTING TO GET OFF STATEN ISLAND HEADED THIS WAY CHECK YOUR LOCAL BAR"

HAHAHAHAHA HaHa HAAAAA! Good one!

Here's a point to ponder....Miami condo development has been fueled (primarily) by speculative investors, not the need for housing. And if the need arises, there are more than enough built and unsold condo units to satisfy the demand. There is no way the banks underwrite this puppy, and no way Tibor self-finances. I think I have mentioned on several occasions that I believe he comes out whole on this regardless of whether it is built or not.....

TIBOR HOLLOW HAS GONE THROUGH HOW MANY REALESTATE HOUSING TRENDS? CONSIDERING HE HAS 56 YEARS EXPERIENCE THAT WOULD MEAN HE HAS BEEN HERE SINCE THE 1950'S

THE MAN I MORE THEN CAPABLE OF BUILDING A CONDO TOWER ON THE MOON AT THIS POINT BUT I WOULD THINK THERE WOULD BE A RACE BECAUSE RELATED GROUP HAS BEEN KICKING SOME A$S LATELY...

SORRY BUT I CANT GO AGAINST EXPERIENCE REGARDLESS OF HOW THE MARKET MAY LOOK TO YOU... ITS YOUR PERSPECTIVE AND NOT ALL BANKS HAVE YOUR PERSPECTIVE I WOULD BANK ROLL HIS PROJECT EVEN AS A RENTAL ITS A WIN WIN WIN SITUATION FOR ANYONE....

HERES SOMETHING FOR YOU TO PONDER THE MORE OFFICE BUILDINGS GET ANNOUNCED THE CLOSER WE GET TO THE THIRD BUILDING BOOM OFFICE WAVE WAS THE SECOND BOOM AND ITS COME IN AT THE RIGHT TIME THE THIRD BOOM WOULD BEGIN BY 2010 SO TIBOR BUILDS HIS PROJECT IT COMES ONLINE IN LATE 2009 EARLY 2010 AND THE OWNERS OF THOSE UNITS WILL BE SEEING PROFITS BECUASE THERE UNITS WILL BE WORTH ABOUT 1K THE SQ FT.

YOU CAN PISS ON THE MAN FOR BUILDING THESE TWO TOWERS BUT HIS EXPERIENCE SAYS IT ALL WHAT IM STARTING TO WONDER IF YOU ARE JUST ONE OF THOSE MARK AT BRICKELL BAY DRIVE PISSED OFF RESIDENTS...YOUR RANTING WON'T SAVE YOUR VIEW, FLORIDA LAW DOESNT PROTECT VIEW CORRIDORS

Here's a point to ponder....Miami condo development has been fueled (primarily) by speculative investors, not the need for housing.How do you define "speculative investor"? Is a speculative investor someone that buys a pre-contruction condo? Of course if there is nothing but a lot of dirt, and you buy the 35th floor before it exists, you are speculating. Speculating that it will be built. My friend that lived in Kendall speculated that his Brickell on the River 41st floor apartment would be built and it was. He moved closer to his job, and doesn't get stuck in traffic jams. Do you count him?
Some of the "vulture fund" guys and people in the press seem to believe that 80% of condos are being purchased by people that intend to sell them immediately after closing.
There isn't, nor has there been, any evidence of 80%. There are more facts to support the notion that there are less than 20% of these investors intent on selling shortly after closing.
The story above is anecdotal of course, but if you study the CBD, Brickell, and Miami Beach markets, you will be hard pressed to find any new building with more than 20% of the units on the market. The lone exception is Jade.
Here are some recently completed buildings, and the number of people that have put them up for sale.
NeoVertika - 17% on the market
BotR - 17%
One Miami - 13% (123 out of 896 units)
The Loft - 6%
The Club at Brickell - 6%
Icon South Beach - 7%

I think you'd have to be insane or incredibly short sighted to believe this building won't eventually get built. With each new building constructed the novelty of living in Brickell, Miami, or Miami Beach grows. Anyone who visits this site must agree that Miami is transforming. Within a decade it will be considered one of the most urban cities in the US just with the construction already in the works. With all the growth in South America you can also count on Miami transforming into a business a cultural epicenter. Miami will be a great place to invest over the long run and what better place could there be to invest than the last remaining bayfront property in Brickell.

Primarily, fairweatherfriend does not *want* it to be built. It is a personal issue with him. The economics is just camouflage

I agree Dale, that sure is what it seems like to me as well.

hey i believe he lives in the mark at brickell and is pissed cause his view will soon be history but if he is really really really pissed he is probably one of those selling his unit at the jade becuase of the view also... he has done everything possible to make this project not go trough except probably voodo or santeria in which case he better get a really good witchdoctor cause tibors got some cosmic karma kinda luck to be in the biz for almost 60 years and still going strong...

Damn rx, ya got me pegged!

THE NEWS GETS EVEN BETTER

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7332/villamagna01ys2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/5484/villamagna02cks1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/6112/villamagna01cex1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/958/villamagna03cyt1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/8523/villamagna04cyr4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1088/villamagna05csb1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

THE NEWS GETS EVEN BETTER

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7332/villamagna01ys2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/5484/villamagna02cks1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/6112/villamagna01cex1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/958/villamagna03cyt1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/8523/villamagna04cyr4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1088/villamagna05csb1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Great News.

More like an act of desperation! Green generally doesn't pay. This tells me it's just about said and done.....

FAIRWEATHER FRIEND?!? ARE YOU SERIOUS?!? I CAN'T IMAGINE HOW THINGS OPERATE IN THE REST OF YOUR LIFE?!

Arch, I lead a good life. And yes, I mean it. I give them credit though. If things are floundering, you need to be proactive and either revise your current pitch, or come up with a new one altogether. Which is pretty much what they've done, or what they present as being what they've done. Do you guys really think they went back to the drawing boards and spent additional monies to re-engineer the project. Don't think so. Would be throwing good money after bad.

Funny how many attack me, but over the length of time, not a single individual has come up with anything that has remotely proven me wrong....

I'm waiting.

In no way do I mean to attack you fairweatherfriend, the tennis match over villa magna is great fun, and your conviction to your point of view is admirable. Truth is I have no financial stake in any of it so it is just hope for a more architectural tomorrowthat keeps enrolled.

Arch, I lead a good life. And yes, I mean it. I give them credit though. If things are floundering, you need to be proactive and either revise your current pitch, or come up with a new one altogether. Which is pretty much what they've done, or what they present as being what they've done. Do you guys really think they went back to the drawing boards and spent additional monies to re-engineer the project. Don't think so. Would be throwing good money after bad.

Funny how many attack me, but over the length of time, not a single individual has come up with anything that has remotely proven me wrong....

I'm waiting.

Proven you wrong about what ?

I HATE TO SEE HIM TALK CRAP ABOUT REDESIGN AND SPENDING MONEY
TIBOR HOLLO REDESIGNED THIS TOWER ABOUT 6 TIMES AND HE WENT INFRONT OF THE REVIEW BOARD 12 TIMES BY LAW AFTER 2 TIMES OF BEING DISMISSED WITH NO VOTE ON THE PROJECT HE AS A DEVELOPER HAS THE RIGHT TO BUILD WHATEVER THE MAX IS ALLOWED WITH NO FURTHER REVIEW...

HE COULD HAVE BUILT TWO 67 FLOOR TOWERS WITH 1000+ UNITS OR ONE HUGE WALL HE DID THE RIGHT THING AND STILL GOT HIS PROJECT CUT DOWN TO 757 UNITS BECAUSE JOHNNY W DIDNT LIKE THE DENSITY OF THE PROJECT...

ANYHOW WOULD HE SPEND MONEY AND REDESIGN THE TOWER...YES AND HE HAS....CAN HE BUILD IT WITH HIS OWN MONEY WITH NO BANK LOAN...YES AND HE HAS IN THE PAST.

"SOME PEOPLE I HAVE LEARNED ARE IGNORANT BY DEFAULT"

Dale,

There is no reason to believe this thing will ever be built, other than heresay. Hence, no one has proven me wrong.

As for this Rx dude, I think he's smoking crack, or somehow he is sooooo vested in this project he feels totally obligated to talk from his tale.

Rx, told you, your buddy Tibor is already financially whole on this deal. Given the current economic climate why would he self-finance. Pleeeeease, exercise some degree of common sense and/or intelligence. You come across as some subspecies of monkey or something.

The sun shall rise....therefore,so shall Tibor! Give me a break you crazy groupie...

Dale,

There is no reason to believe this thing will ever be built, other than heresay. Hence, no one has proven me wrong.

As for this Rx dude, I think he's smoking crack, or somehow he is sooooo vested in this project he feels totally obligated to talk from his tale.

Rx, told you, your buddy Tibor is already financially whole on this deal. Given the current economic climate why would he self-finance. Pleeeeease, exercise some degree of common sense and/or intelligence. You come across as some subspecies of monkey or something.

The sun shall rise....therefore,so shall Tibor! Give me a break you crazy groupie...

Don't we have to wait until it breaks ground to prove you wrong ? Patience, grasshopper. ;)

WEDNESDAY NIGHT THERE WAS SOME ACTIVITY ON THE SITE I WOULD GO INTO DETAIL BUT ALL I WILL SAY IS THAT COME 2 WEEKS WE WILL BE ABLE TO PUT THIS FORUM TO REST AND SAY GOODBYE TO OUR "fairweatherfriend" ALL THIS GOOD NEWS AND ITS NOT EVEN CHRISTMAS...

Hmm...question: What's Villa Magna going to look like from the street? Any renderings facing the street?

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/6647/streetlevelmr0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)




http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/7229/01nc7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1284/02fp2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/7102/03po9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/76/08el9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/7364/04nj8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/8296/05gc0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/6241/06ja4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2884/07rw3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I hope Villa Magna never gets built. They are two ugly towers that do not deserve that prime location.

I'm not too fond of them either...

It's great that Tibor removed The Club from the renderings!! I think that the Club is awful.
Not fond of the Club, but Villa Magna is cool, It'll be built, the question is when.

hey, i agree w/ those above me, but i'm an optimist--i look at the silver lining; two thinly shaped towers that look nice and tall from off shore. imagine driving north over the rickenbacker.. what a nice little addition to the skyline, eh? :D

I'd rather have a taller 4 Season design like tower on that site.

For that site Enrique Norton's 70-story Flatiron Tower will be perfect. That is a stunning, spectacular tower, that if is built, it will become a tower of iconic stature. However, with our luck Villa Magna will get built, and Flatiron Tower will not!

For that site Enrique Norton's 70-story Flatiron Tower will be perfect. That is a stunning, spectacular tower, that if is built, it will become a tower of iconic stature. However, with our luck Villa Magna will get built, and Flatiron Tower will not!


Unfortunately it looks like this will be going forward after all, recently what looks like construction materials were placed on the site towards the edge of the lot closest to Jade

as i stated before our fairweatherfriend will swallow his words very shortly

And I think Flatiron is dead in any case.

Where do you get that Flatiron is dead? Maybe we shouldn't be so sure to claim disaster for projects, many different scenarios can be played out. Premiere is possibly, soon to be back in play, tides often turn before the last concrete block is cast. Even if a project that is up for sale, doesn't mean its dead. It will be interesting to watch the market and see what turns around.

Where do you get that Flatiron is dead? Maybe we shouldn't be so sure to claim disaster for projects, many different scenarios can be played out. Premiere is possibly, soon to be back in play, tides often turn before the last concrete block is cast. Even if a project that is up for sale, doesn't mean its dead. It will be interesting to watch the market and see what turns around.

The lot is up for sale. And there has been talk on this forum to the effect that it was dead. I hope it's premature.

Me too. The lot for sale usually means the project is for sale, and in my "dreams of 2012" new buyers are showing up. In one instance I have heard there is a new buyer interested. No papers signed yet, but it is back in play. Now that the nasty B word has been dropped, thanks to Roark, we'll see how that changes the playing field.

I do take it as a very good sign that, amidst all the din of naysaying, big projects continue to move forward, like Villa Magna, Capital and Infinity II.

I do take it as a very good sign that, amidst all the din of naysaying, big projects continue to move forward, like Villa Magna, Capital and Infinity II.

Can we add Freedom Tower to that list???:banana: :)

Can we add Freedom Tower to that list???:banana: :)

Do you mean 600 Biscayne ?

Not for anything.....if anything substantive were taking place on the Villa Magna lot, do you not think the developer would be shouting it to the high heavens??!!! Construction would not be covert, nor would construction financing on a project of this magnitude. My banker buddies have reason to believe there is no construction financing in place. They certainly would know. What you are seeing may be a marketing ploy....not so different that their "green building" announcements. Me thinks neither is real....

When defeated, I shall be the first to admit defeat.....

i hope your right... these buildings suck... rather have the plot vacant for 15 years til the next boom and then maybe we can get something decent of this great piece of land... think in the long term people...

i hope your right... these buildings suck... rather have the plot vacant for 15 years til the next boom and then maybe we can get something decent of this great piece of land... think in the long term people...

As much as I would like for these buildings not to be built, I have to disagree with fairweatherfriend that the activity on the site is a "marketing ploy." I was skeptical that it was going forward until I saw the construction materials placed there. I think it's just a matter of time now.

There's no financing in place. Any mortgage would have to be recorded in the public records and the only one so far is a $12.0M land loan from Colonial Bank that was just renewed in August for the third time.

Maybe Rx has reference to a pending arrangement set to be announced. And of course he contends that Hollo can finance himself.

THE MAN THAT BUILT THE GRAND AT 2.8 MILLION SQUARE FEET OF SPACE THE LARGEST IN SOUTH EAST FLORIDA AND HE BUILT THE OMNI MALL PLUS THE FIRST CONDO BUILDING IN BRICKELL...


WHAT WAS THE QUESTION AGAIN??????????

YES HE CAN FINANCE HIMSELF

I hate to piss on the parade but the only construction equipment visible from the Herald's Four Seasons Webcam as of 1:09 PM today was a bulldozer. The other cars parked in the lot have been there for months. But I'm sure this project will start eventually and I disagree with those who have said that this building is not worthy of the location. Tibor Hollo will prove all the naysayers wrong in the coming months when this thing starts going vertical. :D

I hate to piss on the parade but the only construction equipment visible from the Herald's Four Seasons Webcam as of 1:09 PM today was a bulldozer. The other cars parked in the lot have been there for months. But I'm sure this project will start eventually and I disagree with those who have said that this building is not worthy of the location. Tibor Hollo will prove all the naysayers wrong in the coming months when this thing starts going vertical. :D


The construction stuff I was referring to is a pile of materials like cement blocks, etc. on the edge of the lot closest to Jade. It's not much but I think it was added there recently and I don't know why else it would be there if not for this building.

As I said earlier, if construction were to commence, someone would be shouting to the high heavens. All you clowns who say Tibor can finance this on his own, you have not been paying attention. He is already whole on this deal. No reason to go out of pocket at this point.

As far as his genius - you are all right. He is a genius.
I have tremendous respect for Tibor.

His partners on the other hand...

:blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah:

I WOULD GIVE ONE OF MY FAMOUS PREDICTIONS BUT WHY EVEN BOTHER?

THANKSGIVING WILL BE A THANKFULL CELEBRATION

AND SOON WE WILL MISS THE TURKEY....

Seriously guys, I am an outsider. For personal reasons I do hope this Villa Magna goes up in flames. I have some insight as to how the deal was set up, so all you Tibor fans should not take offense. Believe me, smart man that he is, he is covered. Totally covered. If this project tanks, the only ones that get burned are the folks I know - people that you do not know. I respect all your opinions, and would not be so obnoxious if I truly believed the failure of this project would cause you harm.

So now tell me, why should I believe this project has any chance of succeeding?

^^
Because, My Fair Weather Friend:) , It will be Built soon as the sellers said a Thanksgiving ceremony for turkey non-belivers who are Non-Tibor hollo fans, or as many say a Christmas groundbreaking with testing Rods going in first, and then the pillings for the foundation of Tower 1 should start going in early next year, 2007:righton: and Us:grouphug: ( INSIDERS ) :cheers: here in a family of the Miami Forum as Tibor Hollo FANS:banana: :cheer: :pepper:

My Fair weather Friend, I know one thing about you for sure,
Your really not a disagreeable outsider person,
but staying outside our Miami Forum is like the Movie therater Slogan at the beginning of each movie.

" Silence Is Golden ":lol:

But, anyway:ohno: , your sure have kept this Thread alive and HOT for a long time.:cheers:

Yeah, keep it up Chuck. Come early next year, you'll be spouting something about early Summer, come Summer, it will be late Fall...

Keep humoring us. So far, you're batting .000%.

Any mortgage would have to be recorded in the public records and the only one so far is a $12.0M land loan from Colonial Bank that was just renewed in August for the third time.Not true.

But please, someone, anyone, any clown, post something providing some degree of evidence this thing is going forward. The hell with homage to King Tibor. You fans are seriously tripping over your d***s. No responses to my previous post in which I stated that these guys would be shouting to the high heavens if they were moving forward???

If construction starts in the next 6 months, I owe you all drinks!!!:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :banana: :bash:

I would like to start off by saying i am not for nor against this quarreling of the minds, and wish not to choose any side whatsoever. That said...
But please, someone, anyone, any clown, post something providing some degree of evidence this thing is going forward. The hell with homage to King Tibor. You fans are seriously tripping over your d***s. No responses to my previous post in which I stated that these guys would be shouting to the high heavens if they were moving forward???
I have yet to see anyone, including urself FWF, post any type of evidence other than your statement of "my credible sources".

Moreover, the fact of the matter is, that unless interpretted otherwise, this project is scheduled to be constructed and completed on time, i pressume. The burden of proof to contradict otherwise lays squarely on you.
If construction starts in the next 6 months, I owe you all drinks!!!:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :banana: :bash:
I'll take a Heineken.

Born ...damn, you are clueless as the rest. Construction was originally scheduled to begin a very, very long time ago. It has not commenced. Nothing for me to prove. Where in God's name do you come up with the comment stating it is being developed on schedule? Seriously, clueless. You actually help prove my point. No Heineken.

lol guilty as charged. But seriously... i could give three $hits if Villa Magna gets built or not... i'm just riding the wave of construction in this city. If it gets built, it's built. If it doesn't, oh well; save it for another time.

Honestly dude... you need to lighten up a bit--loosen that belt buckle. :nuts: Go party, drink, live life. Spend time w/ ur kids, if u have any. Life's short as it is... u can go any day. What i'm saying is life is too short to let [stuff] rent space in your head. That includes Villa Magna. This goes out to all my fellow forumers. Be happy with what's been happening to this city. A transformation in front of our very eyes.

Besides, the Russian mafia-types aren't that bad once you get to know them.

Spend a lot of time with the family, and know how to have a good time as well. I find this forum to be very entertaining.......Cannot tell you when or if a thought of Villa Magna crossed my mind before falling off to sleep!

I have far too much going on to be preoccupied. But when I am at the computer and have a spare moment or two, it's nice to check in...:) :) :)

make mine a fosters or sam-adams

I have far too much going on to be preoccupied. But when I am at the computer and have a spare moment or two, it's nice to check in...:) :) :)
bump

6 months from November 11th.....so far I've got a Sam Adams and a Heineken. If I lose, I am getting off far too easy....

But please, someone, anyone, any clown, post something providing some degree of evidence this thing is going forward. The hell with homage to King Tibor. You fans are seriously tripping over your d***s. No responses to my previous post in which I stated that these guys would be shouting to the high heavens if they were moving forward???

If construction starts in the next 6 months, I owe you all drinks!!!:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :banana: :bash:

My Fair Weather Friend:banana: , your the kind of person:nuts: I would like to meet just to see who we are really dealing with here, So , on Memorial Day weekend, 2007, over six months from now, when Tower One of the Villa Magna:) is putting its foundation in by then , I'll have a strong Barcardi Rum and Coke:cheers: from you at the Newest Bar at the Mary Brickell Village next to the Publix on the second floor on that Saturday afternoon around 2 pm sharp, :lol:

Thanks for the offer !!!:ohno:

Here is a nice little quote. As I've said before, I remain very optimistic about this project.
He'll start building Villa Magna when he has one third of the units sold. Currently, a little over 20 percent are sold. He expects to get the permits before the end of the year. 'We have painstakingly examined what is there. We have found very interesting economic developments,' he said, noting more than two dozen projects that never got off the ground because of rising construction costs and a changing market. Thousands of people got deposits back. 'Unfortunately for medium-priced condominiums and lower priced condominiums, the developers just cannot pair up the pricing with their cost,' He said. However, the high-end market is very strong.

Here is a nice little quote. As I've said before, I remain very optimistic about this project.

DGM, got one word for you....."SPIN." Just my opinion. Chuck, if you're right, I will meet you there....

Here is a nice little quote. As I've said before, I remain very optimistic about this project.

What date is this article? Because in May 2006, Hollo said that 21% of the units had been sold.

"We have plenty of buyers," said Tibor Hollo, chairman of Florida East Coast Realty, who is developing Villa Magna, two towers on Brickell Avenue, which he said was the last available waterfront parcel. Since his first building opened for sale in February, Mr. Hollo said, 167 of the 787 units have sold, each at more than $1 million.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/19/us/19miami.html?ex=1163739600&en=72e7e0078689c81b&ei=5070

DGM, got one word for you....."SPIN." Just my opinion. Chuck, if you're right, I will meet you there....

My " FairWeather " Friend:) , The Deal is On:banana: , I'm really counting on that drink from you, and maybe a few other Miami Forum Members could meet us there , too, We'll take group pictures and post them here. We'll have so much to talk about, Maybe we'll go over and meet Tibor Hollo:ohno: at his home over that Memorial weekend, lol.:lol: and also take pictures Us:) , You and I in front of the construction cranes on the Villa Magna site.:cheers:

Wow, I can't wait for this Great celebration ,
:banana: :) Go Cranes !!!:cheers:

This article from today's Herald is saying groundbreaking is now for next spring:

http://specialsections.miami.com/SS/Page.aspx?&secid=24657&pagenum=1

http://img.travidia.com/ss-art/464666

WELL I KNEW HE WOULD MAKE DUE ON HIS PROMISE OF MAKING A PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT BEFORE TURKEY DAY.

IM GLAD THAT HE ADDRESSED EVERY SINGLE POINT THAT I BROUGHT UP
ABOUT HIS CREDIBILITY OF BUILDING SUCH HUGE TOWER(S) AND WITH HIS "RESOURCES"

WELL I KNEW HE WOULD MAKE DUE ON HIS PROMISE OF MAKING A PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT BEFORE TURKEY DAY.

IM GLAD THAT HE ADDRESSED EVERY SINGLE POINT THAT I BROUGHT UP
ABOUT HIS CREDIBILITY OF BUILDING SUCH HUGE TOWER(S) AND WITH HIS "RESOURCES"

This is what, the 4th time the "scheduled groundbreaking" has been delayed?

Gotta love Dude!!

This is what, the 4th time the "scheduled groundbreaking" has been delayed?
^^
DUDE:rock: , my friend:wave: , No more DELAYS:no: , The Drinks are on My " Fairweather : Friend:cheers: ,
There will be NO More excuses, NO Hurricanes !!!, No HIGH Interest rates or Prime Rates to stop our MAN, Tibor Hollo from A Spring 2007 Groundbreaking:applause: and the Construction Cranes WILL be putting in Pillings for the Foundation around the middle of May for our Miami Forum Group Family:grouphug: pictures in front of the Villa Magna Site:righton:
:dance:
Wow:) , I can't wait again for this Great Celebration !!!
Go Cranes !!!:cheers: :banana2: :cheer: :pepper:

Another Herald article. In this one Hollo says he only plans on financing 1/3 of the project and he plans to use his own money for the other 2/3.

http://img.travidia.com/ss-page/291426

http://img.travidia.com/ss-page/291427

Interesting, although I note that in this article, which is very recent, it says that 20% of units are sold. I pointed out earlier this week that in an article in May 2006, supposedly 21% were sold. See http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/19/us...89c81b&ei=5070 (" 'We have plenty of buyers,' " said Tibor Hollo, chairman of Florida East Coast Realty, who is developing Villa Magna, two towers on Brickell Avenue, which he said was the last available waterfront parcel. Since his first building opened for sale in February, Mr. Hollo said, 167 of the 787 units have sold, each at more than $1 million.")

If the sales rate remains the same as it has been between May and November 2006, I don't see how a spring 2007 groundbreaking can occur. How do they propose to sell 10% of units in a couple of months when they haven't been able to achieve that in the last 6 months?

This is what, the 4th time the "scheduled groundbreaking" has been delayed?

Which would make it like many other Miami projects that are currently u/c. There is time, and there is developer's time.

INTERESTING HOW HE IS FINANCING OUT OF HIS OWN POCKET AS I STATED BEFORE

Not to be mean, but then again, maybe...

Rx, you clueless dolt. You believe everything you read? Do you not realize that these guys have to do everything they can to inspire hope and faith in this project. If the general public thinks the project is in jeopardy, they will avoid it like the plague. Everything you read is part of the "pitch."

I repeat, I agree Tibor is a genius. He has cashed out on this. Someone else is holding the bag.

Just because an article says he will move forward in Spring is not proof that he actually will. But, clueless dolt that you are, you jump up and down like an idiot waving your hands saying "told you so...."

I take it you don't work in Real Estate, do you?

By the way, I understand that folks in Russia are getting very pissed (not at Tibor though). If Tibor were ready to move, I do not believe that would be the case.

Then again, it's all conjecture on my part!

NO I DONT WORK PERIOD

I JUST HAVE A PORTFOLIO OF PROPERTIES

BUT JUST TO CLEAR SOMETHING UP "HOW COME I SAY HE WILL USE HIS CASH TO BUILD THESE TOWERS AND THEN TIBOR SAYS HE WILL DO THE VERY SAME THING I SAID?" JUST GOES TO SHOW YOU THAT IF ANYONE KNOWS DEVELOPERS AND ANYONE KNOWS REALESTATE ITS THIS CLUELESS DOLT....

IVE NEVER INSULTED YOU BUT I DO HAVE TO SAY YOU HAVE PROVEN TO BE A BIG MORON....

fairweatherfriend, what is the deal. Why so much negativity towards this project. Do you live near Villa Magna? If so, is all this negativity bc when finished your view will be blocked? Just curious.

Okay...so where have I been wrong. Not once my friend.....

I KNOW IM NOT WRONG WHEN I TOLD YOU HE WILL FINANCE HIMSELF OF POCKET... I KNOW I WONT BE WRONG TO SAY THIS FORUM IS SOON TO BE DELETED SINCE YOU SEEM TO LIKE TO INSULT PEOPLE INSTEAD OF FACING THE FACT ITS GETTING BUILT.

My apologies to the board, and especially Rx. I have been just plain out-of-line nasty.

The "article" that was posted is pretty clearly an advertising supplement designed to spur interest in various developments.

That said, I certainly hope this project happens.

Bummer. Guess we have nothing to chat about until the Spring, when he either starts building or does'nt......

yes, to be continued

Has anyone seen Chuck? I wonder if he is working with his illegals on Villa or Met 3.

More from the Roark "unscientific measure of a failing project", another salesperson is leaving Villa Magna and looking for work elsewhere.
When salespeople leave a project, they leave their commissions on the table. They have to really believe that the project isn't going to be finished to walk away.

Or they're not in a postion to wait it out. Translation: abide by Hollo's plodding pace. Opera Tower took forever and a day. Yet, it rises.

More from the Roark "unscientific measure of a failing project", another salesperson is leaving Villa Magna and looking for work elsewhere.
When salespeople leave a project, they leave their commissions on the table. They have to really believe that the project isn't going to be finished to walk away.


Can't say I'm surprised that salespeople would be leaving, considering that according to Hollo himself a whopping 1% of units were sold since May

Rx....you've got to be somewhat concerned here????

Anyone out there?

Anyone out there?

Your enjoying this far to much dude

Not to be too pathetic, but any word out there on the status of the project?

Why do we care about this stupid project....in my opinion this land would be far better if left empty without those two ugly monstrosities-never seen a tibor hollo project come out nicely, i had high hopes for opera tower and even that one looks like a regular ugly condo tower.So in my opinion i would rather that project never get close to being built.

Not to be too pathetic, but any word out there on the status of the project?

FECR also announced plans to break ground on Villa Magna at 1201 Brickell Bay Dr. in the spring. The development will include 787 residences, a wind-resistant sand beach, heated lap pool, massage island and open-air cabanas. One- to four-bedroom units will be priced from $800,000 to $3 million.

For information, call 305-358-7710 or visit fecr.com

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/states/florida/counties/miami-dade/cities_neighborhoods/beaches/16245360.htm

how can you have "a wind-resistant sand beach"? I don't understand how one can make that work on a highrise, especially if a tropical system swings through.

how can you have "a wind-resistant sand beach"? I don't understand how one can make that work on a highrise, especially if a tropical system swings through.


I was going to ask the same thing, sounds pretty wild.

Concrete has a little bit of sand in it, right? Maybe it will be one of those pools with the beach entrance and sandy texture...

Good to see everyone coming back! But...other than the advertisement for Spring groundbreaking (????), does anyone have anything substantive to report? And yes, I am biased, like a few others out there, I would like to see this tank....

Good to see everyone coming back! But...other than the advertisement for Spring groundbreaking (????), does anyone have anything substantive to report? And yes, I am biased, like a few others out there, I would like to see this tank....

Happy New Year My Fair Weather Friend:) , that drink with you is getting closer each month, Memmorial day weekend will be here soon:cheers: .

TO ANSWER HIS QUESTION

SHOULD WE SHOW CONCERN EVERYTIME AN EMPLOYEE QUITS TACO BELL OR MCDONALDS? WHY SHOULD WE BE CONCERNED WITH ONE EMPLOYEE THAT DECIDED THEY WHERE UNHAPPY?

TO ANSWER HIS QUESTION

SHOULD WE SHOW CONCERN EVERYTIME AN EMPLOYEE QUITS TACO BELL OR MCDONALDS? WHY SHOULD WE BE CONCERNED WITH ONE EMPLOYEE THAT DECIDED THEY WHERE UNHAPPY?


I found out yesterday that the realtor through whom I rented my current apartment at Club at Brickell Bay and who worked at Vistas International, the realtor handling Villa Magna sales, left last month. Guess he wasn't too optimistic about the latest reincarnation of the long-promised groundbreaking in spring 2007

GOODLUCK FINDING A JOB NOW... WHERE IS THE REALTOR GOING TO WORK AT MAJESTIC? LOL

Anyone have any news on the status of this development? Awfully quiet out there....

yea just read a article today in Miami magazine. They are finishing Opera Tower at the moment and ground breaking for Villa Magna in April. Lets cross are fingers:banana:

Still awfully damn quiet...

still haven't gotten out of January...

HE JUST HAD TO GET UP TO 80 COUNT ON HIS POST

I CAN BET YOU ALL 80 ARE PROBABLY THE SAME VILLA MAGNA:toilet: :toilet: BS :toilet: :toilet: THATS GOING TO TURN AROUND AND BITE HIM IN THE REAR END...

GOODLUCK FINDING A JOB NOW... WHERE IS THE REALTOR GOING TO WORK AT MAJESTIC? LOLI know one very successful development that is hiring.:)

I WOULD TAKE THEM STRAIGHT TO EDGARDO DEFORTUNA AND HAVE THEM WORKING WITH FORTUNE REALTY IN A HEARTBEAT IF I KNEW THIS PERSON HAD SOME INTEGRITY AND STANDS FOR QUALITY IN THE PROPERTY THEY ARE REPRESENTING...

THIS REALTOR CAN GO BACK TO CORPORATE AMERICA OR DRIVING YELLOW BUSSES... WATCH THE MARKET HAVE A JUMP START IN MARCH AND THEN LATER IN THIS WEAK HURRICANE SEASON...

3RD AND 4TH QUATER WE WILL BE SEEING ALOT OF POSITVE HYPE AND BUZZ FROM SUCCESSFULL DEVELOPMENTS... LIKE PAC AND MIDTOWN SHOPS

WEDNESDAY NIGHT THERE WAS SOME ACTIVITY ON THE SITE I WOULD GO INTO DETAIL BUT ALL I WILL SAY IS THAT COME 2 WEEKS WE WILL BE ABLE TO PUT THIS FORUM TO REST AND SAY GOODBYE TO OUR "fairweatherfriend" ALL THIS GOOD NEWS AND ITS NOT EVEN CHRISTMAS...

Rx, you are a proven clown. April? and you tell me in two weeks I will have been proven wrong. I correct myself, not clown, ABSOLUTE CLOWN, perhaps IGNORAMUS. Anyway, give me any reason to believe the project is going forward, other than the say-so of the mighty Tibor (who, mind you, I have no issues with and wish only the best!).

I think you owe me many beers.

Rx, you are a proven clown. April? and you tell me in two weeks I will have been proven wrong. I correct myself, not clown, ABSOLUTE CLOWN, perhaps IGNORAMUS. Anyway, give me any reason to believe the project is going forward, other than the say-so of the mighty Tibor (who, mind you, I have no issues with and wish only the best!).

I think you owe me many beers.

I should make it clear that Rx's post was submitted last April, almost a year ago..

Damn, can you imagine what the carrying costs are on the Villa Magna site?

OK 3 POST BACK TO BACK WITHOUT EDITING IS SPAMMING:spam1:

I TOLD YOU TIBOR WOULD MAKE A PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT BEFORE THANKSGIVING AND HE DID

I ALSO TOLD YOU GROUNDBREAKING IS THIS APRIL... JUST LIKE MANY OTHERS HAVE TOLD YOU.

A TOWER LIKE THAT DOESNT JUST POP OUT OF THE GROUND AND TWO OF THEM???? COMON DUDE... IT TAKES TIME TO PLAN AND MAKE SURE YOU ARE DOING THINGS RIGHT BEFORE YOU BREAK GROUND.

I TOLD YOU TIBOR WOULD FINANCE THE PROJECT OUT OF HIS ON POCKET AND THE ARTICLE PROVED IT ALSO...

NOW AS FOR THE BEER BET :booze: :cheers: :cheers2: :scouserd: :cheers1::scouserd: :cheers2: :cheers: :booze: THAT WAS ALL YOURS I NEVER MADE SUCH BET... BUT I DONT MIND BUYING A SORE LOSSER A BEER ANYDAY...


the long-promised groundbreaking is in spring 2007


WHERE IS YOUR PROOF THAT ITS NOT HAPPENING?

There's an article in Miami Today that where Tibor is quoted as saying that the groundbreaking will be in May of '07. He says sales are very good in the water view units and very bad in the city view units.

There's an article in Miami Today that where Tibor is quoted as saying that the groundbreaking will be in May of '07. He says sales are very good in the water view units and very bad in the city view units.

Thanks Dach:) , my friend,

and,

My Fairweather " Friend:) ", This is going to be a close bet on that drink:cheers: ,
Well, during Memmorial Day weekend:banana: , we'll be either celebrating that drink of Cranes groundbreaking:bash: ,

Or just another Lie:ohno: by my friend Tibor Hollo:) , But
I'm confident , he'll Proceed with His Pride and Joy !!!:cheers:

Anyone have any new news on the project? Still slated for May groundbreaking? Has the condo market in Miami picked up steam?

Will Villa Magna suffer a similar fate?

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/orl-miket1807mar18,0,3354518.column?track=mostemailedlink

^ Our Mike Thomas mentioned just about everything except the fact that Related is taking over the project, thus virtually guaranteeing its success.

you are right dale that was on feb 23rd 2007 before he wrote his article but the man had to get paid for a story and he wasnt about to scratch it and start over or give it a happy ending... seems he will be taking that swan dive after all from the 52 floor and if related is building it then he better start sweating cause they will have it up in 52 weeks.

It appears Donald Trump is getting his wish.

The Related Group of Florida out of Miami signed a letter of intent with Mirabilis Ventures and SimDag LLC Friday to take over as managing partner of the Trump Tower Tampa project, a 52-story luxury condominium project that has struggled to get out of the ground in Tampa's downtown core.

http://tampabay.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2007/02/19/daily58.html?surround=lfn

But what of our Villa Magna!?!?

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/2481/dt1158576486zd6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/541/dt1158576114an5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/3953/dt1158576417vr6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/278/dt1158576230sy1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/1535/dt1158576297wb9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Thanks for the great pictures. Is this project still going to happen? I haven't been keeping up on it, but it looks like a nice addition to the southern Brickell area...

p.s. In those pictures, a lot of the newer buildings in Brickell are missing!!! But it doesn't really matter; those are mainly to see the new Villa Magna buildings, not the surrounding ones.

Man these buildings are Ugly...The pedestal looks retarded too...

Man these buildings are Ugly...The pedestal looks retarded too...


I just saw an ad for it the other day trumpeting units for a "modest" 800k-3 million. How in the hell do they expect to find so many buyers at those prices, in this market you would have to be crazy to pay 800k for a 1 bedroom unit. the location (area) is nice but not nice enough, nor is the bayfront thing enough to justify those prices in my opinion

They're definitely not the best buildings architecturally.....they're kind of boring and don't have any pizazz. But they look pretty tall, I think there 56 floors each and they're even a little taller than Jade Residences which is next door. I like them because they fill in that little gap in the skyline there and have a nice height. I do wish they would eliminate the parking pedestal and spice up the design a bit, but I'll gladly take them the way the are.....twin towers are nice no matter how bland they are.

Man these buildings are Ugly...The pedestal looks retarded too...

Toucano:) , my master and friend:cheers: !!!

Ugly or retarded, Just build them ,
is all I want Tibor Hollo to do,
Get something started on that last waterfront property in Brickell

PLEASE Mr. Hollo ,Start in June !!!,
I beg you, lol.:nuts:

Toucano:) , my master and friend:cheers: !!!

Ugly or retarded, Just build them ,
is all I want Tibor Hollo to do,
Get something started on that last waterfront property in Brickell

PLEASE Mr. Hollo ,Start in June !!!,
I beg you, lol.:nuts:



I thought groundbreaking was supposedly set for April, are we up to June now?

Just wondering, what is the official floor count on Villa Magna? On Emporis, it says that both towers will be 57 floors.....but the official Villa Magna website says that one will be 62 floors and the other will be 61....it doesn't make a big difference, but what is the real floor count?

And do I have the right height at 574 feet for both towers?

Just think of the residents of Solaris, VM's almost 20-story parking pedestal about as tall as their penthouses...

Just think of the residents of Solaris, VM's almost 20-story parking pedestal about as tall as their penthouses...

Webster's defines 'filthy rich' as the ability to look down on your neighbor's penthouse apartment from your parking space.

Webster's defines 'filthy rich' as the ability to look down on your neighbor's penthouse apartment from his parking space.
:lol: Ha ha ha ha