Folks UnitedPakistan and I have decided to create this new thread in Gup Shup to facilitate Mehfil Pakistan members who want to express themselves through a proper discussion/debate on certain issues which we have not been able to discuss yet.

This thread will host numerous topics in the coming weeks and everyone will be given a chance to debate on it, either IN FAVOR or NOT IN FAVOR of the discussion/debate. But please be noted that everyone will get only "ONE" Chance to debate on it. The mere reason for that is to avoid "Counter Attacks" which generally fuel more counter attacks and eventually derail that particular thread.

And also that applies to the person posting after you, "QUOTING" a members comments in this thread is not allowed. You can express your own views, but they should not be against a member who posted before you.

Please be noted that the views should be detailed and professional. We do not want 1-Liners "Yes its wrong, or vice versa".

Lastly, this thread if open for all Mehfil Pakistan members, new and old. UnitedPakistan and I will strictly monitor this thread so that there are no "outside" interference.

This thread if strictly for mature members, please be noted that your views should be again professional and should not have a childish approach.

Your post should start with a bold headline stating "IN FAVOR" or "NOT IN FAVOR"

This week's topic is;

Maderessas, Are they doing harm to Pakistan?

WEll soory to see people did nto reply. Its an awesome thread.. let me reply :)

I will go through cases by case, then it will be evident what my answer is.

Well Maderaasas and Mullahs are 2 different things. But thier relation is as close as that of a mother and a son.
So lets start shall we. Maderesaas are meant to be where students learn about Islam. Pakistan's poverty rate is about 20%, it has been decreasing at a rate of 5% a year thanks to Musahrraf's policies. Now majority of the people in Pakistan's Maderasas come from poor families. Islamic schools provide food, water, clean clothes etc so parents send thier children there so they can be better and ealrn about Islam at the same time. So the students in the MADERESAS are not to blame.

Who teaches in the Maderesas? The beautilful Mullahs. We all love them dont we? We call them the true Imams's of Islam. Now those of u who have lived in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan know the Majority of the MUllahs are CORRUPT. Agreed? Most of you will agree that majorti of the Mullahs in Pakistan are corrupt.. about 80% lets say? We can talk about the numbers later but the point is that they are corrupt. Why are they corrupt?

They are corrupt cuz first they say they are the saviours of Islam. Then at the same time persoanlly in my 19 years of my life I have seen Mullah who of course without any doubt at all, have no problem with greed, betrayal, jealousy, showing-off, talking behind peoples' backs and the worst in human nature. We have seen em everywhere in pakistan. They are in our cities in our villages everywhere. The same goes Saudi Mutawas. They are also so called the saviours of islam but they are unfair in everything they do. For example. I was with my aunt in Saudi Arabia and a saudi Mutawa comes to my aunt and says why do u have a lispstick i will put u in jail and same time a white girl with no scarf passes by and to her he.. SAW when he turned aroud but did nto say a word! Then 2 Philipphinos pased by with lipsticks he did not sya antying to them either. Then he started yelling at us again. Mullahs like this all over and countless examples can be shared by all of u. MAYBE SOME PEOPLE IN THIS FORUM ARE IGNORANT AND LIKE TO DEFEND THEM. BUT I AM SORRY THEY ARE NOT THE TRUE IMAMS OF ISLAM, THEY ARE THE ONE WHO HAVE MADE A MESS OF ISLAM.

There are a FEW Mullahs who are nice and Intelligent and MashAllah amazing at what they do. So how many are there of Good MUllahs 2% maybe 5%. But most of u will agree thats CORRUPT Mullahs number is high uo in the 70%...They dont make mistakes. Mullahs know exactly whats going on ! They are using Islam as a poltical tool.

YOu guys all know Jamat-e-Islami. Everyone thinks they are correct. Pppl don know the history of JI. First of all they are 100% by AMericans since 1943 and onwards. I will talk about that later. With limitless funds from Saudi Arabia (and the United States), they won adherents among the bureaucracy and the merchant class. They recruited selectively among young Muslims, whom they trained, motivated and used to harass, intimidate and persecute opponents of thier extremist ideology. The point is that Mullahs are using Islam as a political tool to come to power and they ar not going to help Islam in anyway. All the sensible Mullahs in Pakistan are insensible in thier poliicies and like diologue rather than killing, bombs etc etc.The entire character of a nation is being distorted. The spirit of tolerance that once stood out among the ebullient, fun-loving people of Sindh and Punjab provinces has all but disappeared. Thanks to the Brainfeeding of SECTS of various Mullahs.

8000 Mullahs in Saudi Arabia have been caught last year cuz they were teaching non-Islamic and Extremist values. Number is probably in 10,000 + in Pakistan. And its true we know personally many of them teach us extremist values. Such as all jews are bad, and advocatign manmade rules to implemnet thier ideas. Or if u kill a non-Muslim u get 72 Hoors all that stuff is brainfed into the minds of Innocent pppl and then they have no idea what Quran says cuz they dont have knowledge and then they trun to extremism. This is the reason extremism exists. There are ignorant ppl in the world who i have had arguments on the fact that they think that there is no Extremism in paksitan. Simply not true.

WHat is happenin in the Muslim world right now is all thanks to the extermist balues portrayed by our Mullahs. The extremist and manmade Islam spread by the Taliban and the same extremist values taught by Mullahs all over Maderesas in Pakistan. not syaing All mullahs teach the same thing. There are Mullahs who are awesome and are innocent. But majortiy is not. ANd they are brain feedingg woring information in the minds of students and students are learning the wrogn things and thats they many em have extremist idiologies. You can try talking to one and u will see the great deal of extremism that is brainfed to them.

so Mullahs are harming Islam. They are not helping at all. Especially in paksitan they are using ISlam to win tier evil idilogies. When the cartoosn wrre made.. all Mullahs in Paksitan came to street noot for the Prophet but to overthrow the government. ANd then at the same time they say we are doig this in the name of the prophet and all educated ppl know what they are about to do do Islam and Pakistan.

I have said enough. Mullahs are harming Pakistan and Islam and thanks to such corrupt Mullahs Maderesas might haram Pakistan and Islam in the long run too. Musharraf said that mathematics and science should be taught in maderesas as well. we knowo know QUran has so much scientific facts so scholars will learn more and will be able to use mathematics to do grat things fir ISlam. we all know that hwo imporant knowledge is to us. God has stated the wor knowledge in the Quran 800o times or so. BUt no.. Mullahs will stay ignorant as ever. Musharraf is not wrong in this. Science and mathematic will only make our Islamic students better and they will Inteligent when they grow up they will Progess Islam. So help them Progress Islam.

Now In the end i wanna say. STOP defeding the Mullahs who are corrupt. They dont make mistakes. They do them on purpose. Stop taking Jamat-e-Islami as Innocnet just cuz they have an islamic name. Do some research. Read them.. notice them see how they act see all Mullahs how they act.. whether they are right or not... then only will u know which Mullahs need to be respeced oor not. Dont be blind. some ppl in this forum are. DEFEND the QURAN and HADITH and DONT let the MUllahs FOOL you. They are fools themselves and its only cuz of us thy are so hot shots. stop licking thier feets.. (only to those ppl who do) :)

Read the Quran urself.. and ask others spread knwoledge and defend the authnentic hadiths. Then only will Islam progress. U leave it to the MUllahs Islam is goign no where. Mullahs let us down they let the young generation down.

NOT ALL OF THEM ARE THE SAME. THERE ARE GOOD ONES OUT THERE. FIND THEM. BUT THE ONES WHO ARE CORRRUPT, STAND UP TO THEM.

PAKISTANI MULLAHS ARE CORRUPT, ALL OF U KNOW. PAKISTAN IS BECOMING A HIGHLY EXTEREMIST COUNTRY THANKS TO THEM AND IF MUSHI WAS NOT IN POWER AND IF WE DID NOT HAVE A MILITARY AND NUCLEAR CAPIBILITY THEN WE WOULD HAVEE BEEN IN DEEP DOODLE RIGHT NOW.

Lets help each other fight this Mullah nonsesne. :) Our parents made us edicted. May God bless them so much. Now we have to carry Islam forward. :) We have to act now and act fast. SO that islam of the future is the Islam that every Non Muslim wants to eneter. With the corrupt Mulahs of today no one wants to be a MUslim due the way they reprsent hemselves. There are awesoem MUllahs out there who dont even have a beard but they are spreading Islam faster than traditional Mulalhs cuz they use logic to convert. So lets give our Future world and Muslim a better place to live by trying our best to bring Islam do its Originality. ISlam = 10 Commandments. :) Mullahs have maade it hell complicated. :) The choice is urs. :) i love all of u guys cuz i know we are on the same page we want to be good muslims so lets start at our homes read the Quran ( translation) etc and hold it tight with authintic hadiths. :) try try tryyy lets work hard to come to the Political scene when u all grow upppp, goota try.. no harm in trying.. God will help ppl of good intentions..so lets do it :) What a Tragedy that would be if we dont even try.... :)

Thanks! :) i am tired and i am done

I mailed my friends the question and I have a gift for you guys, they all rpeled back i will post thier asnwers here. Since they are just asnwers and there are no debates here.

Friend # 1:

Pakistan got 2 diffrent sort of madrassas working there. Most of the madrassas that r working in the metropolitans or big cities and towns, i support em, coz when i was in pak i was very deeply involved in there stuff and ive seen em very closely, but the madrassas that r in small, less developed or tribal areas, i really got some reservations about em.

pakistan is country with a 42% literacy rate.. 42 %..yeah m right, only and only 42 %... but do u think its true that 42% of pakistan's population is literate?? i dont think so, coz in the definition of literate is given in the constitution of pakistan as " a person who can read and write his name", so do u think 42% r literate in pakistan :S:S hell no :S:s it would be just like 20 22%.... y literacy rate is so slow? coz ppl dont have money to and if they have 40 bucks to send there kid to school , they dont have money to cloth and feed their children properly.... but the intelligent ppl decide to send there kids to madrassas.. where they can learn how to read and write they can eat properly from the lungar there they will be clothed properly they will have a clean place to sleep,they will be raised in some restrictions and obligations that most of the kids never have at there homes, they will have a comp in the library to go to reutars, bbc, darse quran, islam today and stuff, they will study about allah's deen, and after getting diploma from madrrassah then they can apply for karz e hasna and go to uni and stuff , and at the end most probably insha allah thier relgiouse concepts will be clearer than other kids of there age group.

and i also wana mention that there r some madrassas in karachi, they have "international students" studying there, but now they've been sent back to there countries .

But there r also some madrassas, that r not following musharaf's educational plane for madrassas... like on geo television they were showing some madrassas near pak afghan border, and now they r sealed by government coz government claimed that students were also given training to handle arms and weapons, if thats true, m against those madrassas.

the thing that makes me happy is that mushi uncle is changing the traditional madrassas thingi to modern, islamic schools alhumdulilah.

Friend # 2:

Imam Abu Hanifah, rahimahullah, was amongst the greatest of scholars and they would get into these great debates with each other. When his son started getting into debating too, he told him to stay away from it. His son asked how can you tell me to keep away from it, when you used to do it too?

So Abu Hanifah replied, When we debated it was as though the birds were sitting on our heads, because we were scared stiff that the other person would slip up (and end up saying something that would land them in kufr), but when you debate, you are on the edge of your seats just waiting for the other person to slip up so you can win the debate.

also remember sheikh al Barbaharees saying : sitting in order to advice sincerely is to open the doors of benefit and sitting in order to debate is to close the doors of benefit...

and regarding the topic.. Madrassahs and Mullahs are they going to harm Pakistan and Islam ?..

first of all what are madrassahs ?? what are the motives behind them.. if the motives are to teach our children the true deen of Allah.. then yes iam 100 % for them inshAllah.. and yes IAM ALSO for Mullahs .. but not the ones u guys have in mind.. Iam talking about the true imams of Islam.. inshAllah.. and no they will not harm islam nor Pakistan but rather will help them.. It is a fact but unfortunately maj. of our socities are anpadh and gawar regarding the religion they do not know the basics and we have to teach them in a certain way inshAllah...and what Khawar said concerning these madrassahs just touched my heart.. i wana go to one as well now..

wa allahu 'alam

Friend # 3:

most mullahs are corrupt but madrasas arent doing any harm to pakistan, its just that they think its doing harm cuz they tryin to be like the freakin US of Freakin A. but there are nicer mullahs, the cool ones who also run madrasas ex. Tariq Jameel, etc.

madrasas are cool

Friend # 4:

Majority of the Madrassa's in pakistan have bad reputaion...it was hard for me to see the kids from these madrassa's go out everymorning, afternoon and evening and go door to door and ask for what they call ( Mazeefa) which means food basicly...it was like begeing realy..so instead of raising them on stronging thier charecters and inspire them of the previouse Sahaba's or Phrophets...i saw them not even being able to make eyes contact properly...let alone haveing a conversation.....

one day when i asked one of them kids to get inside and wait on the chair till the tea is done...he looked @ me as if i was outta ma mind !!

why are they feeling like our servants ??
and am talking bout modern cities and all...

so when i hear madrassa in pakistan..i think...not right!

Friend # 5:

yes thts the actual point that what r the motives of these madrassas... In my point of view the only motive
of the madrassa is to provide religious education and to teach din(accepted) and best of all if they
provide scientific education beside the religious education. now upto wt extent these motives r met?
the fact is that there r hardly 1% madrassas that provide scientific education.... ok.. but how many of em r providing religius education.. very few..... u wont believe ppl but its truth that in the name of religious education, most ofthe madrassa r giving ppl religious education related to their cast n firqa... so instead of producing muslims, they r
producing sunnis, wahabis, deobandis n shias...... Once i went to my frend.. he was giving tuition to a small kid(that kid also use to attend madrassa at day time).. he asked the kid wt he will do when he wud grow up? The kid replied 'i will do jihaad'. my frend further asked, "gud... against whom u will do jihaad?".. the kid said, " against shias"...
now if this is the religious education n the knowledge of din the madrassas r giving, then its a shame for all of us..
Most of the imams in our mosquest(mostly in villages, n village population constitute more than 70% of total population) r students of some madrassa.. but in most of the mosquest nowadays, wt they do is to spread hatered against other casts..
i know very well abt imam of my mosque who has been jailed for the illegal use of loud speakers..n i know abt many others who do such kinda stupid things.... n the worst of all, they think that they r doing very gud work, they r serving the religion by doing all this...
now another aspect of madrassa education.. wt goes on with the students there.. there was a news few yrs back when a student was tied with zanjeers cuz of being absent from madrassa... Is this the way to give religious education... i dont think there is any Mullah
who knows how to be patient a affectionate towards the students.. Todays Mullahs just know one language, the language of beating.. n i hate this.
Ok, one final thing, Musharraf asked all the madrassas to get registered.. now why these madrassa owners r shouting at this.. wt problem they had in getting registerd if they r not doing nething wrong.... n not to forget beside all this hatered, there r many madrassas
that teaches how to blast shias mosque, n how to attack a sunni's gathering..... n everyhing being done in the name of Allah n religion..
Beside all this, there r few, rahter very few madrassas that r civilised n giving botha kinda education.. This madrassa culture shud be promoted i think.. not the one i've mentined above.. thts not the way to learn religion...
and something abt Mullahs.. i dont accept that at present there is ne Mullah who has got the real knowledge of Islam...Todays Mullahs just know that they have to put up long beards, white pag, tasbeeh in hand.. jsut do Allah Allah in front of ppl, n when nobody is there, then do wteva u want... Todays Mullahs (most of em) r just using Islam for their political benifits.... All this religious hatered in our society taday is due to em... no other person is responsible for it... they have put this poison in our society n r continously up to it...

and the final thing is.. these Madrassa can be the best mode of education if used in the proper way.. if these uneducated Mullahs keep on running these Madrassa, then i am sorry that u cant expect alam-e-dins from em.. The only bechlors they will produce wud be the terrorists...
Besides all this, there r very few Mullahs amongst them who r worth to be called as Alam-e-dins or who really have got the true knowledge on islam...

Friend # 6:

madrassas are alright unless they are run by retard physco freaks who spread hatred (which most of them sadlly are).

madrassas are important most of the kids in madrassas wouldnt have no where to go and would end up in places even more dangerous places.

the sad thing is that if madrasses in pak have stoped anti hate america slogan the more important thing is that they are continuing the anti rich hate in pak

a drift has been created in pakistan where there are only poor poeple or rich people and the middle class has vanished from pakistan and these poor poeple usually hate the rich pople from their guts (the best example could be given of what happed recently in lahore)

rich : i mean the educated decent working peopel with white colar jobs
poor: not usually poor have a steady source of income but always cry that we are poor we are poor and are uneducated illetrate jahals

i know i have been stoped by mullah on streets in paks the only 5 or 6 times i have been there just because i was dressed different and by dressed different i meant the normal jeans and a tee shirt and started giving me lectures about how is it haram to take bribes and a person should earn a hilal living.
just because of the way i was dressed or looked they asumed that i was living on haram income.

these madrassas dont teach their childern the modern ways saying that the modern ways are against islam. they them selves are illetrate and uneducated and are afraid if our childern might studey and become good and decent they might go out of their control.

these madrasa childern have 0 confidence and the only thing they speak about is the anti america slogans or as i told the anti decent people slogan.

i have been started at by people in between namaz ! when i said " ameeeeeeeeeeen" in a loud voice peopel in front of me praying turned their heads looking at me and then again the mullah gave me a 1 hr lecture saying hoe it was haram to say " ameeen " in a loud voice

people in pak are divided between deobandi, wahabee blah blha blha people in pak break fast in ramadan with five to 10 minutes difference because all the mosques have different time for azaan

sadly paksitan is in its worst state a person could imagine and i am afraid theis bubble wpould burst very soon

kick start this thread again, it was a great idea!

Sure, post in a question and lets have a discussion!

Do you believe its choice or genetic disposition of a person?

Pakistan
Statute: Section 377
Penalty: Death by stoning

Statute
From International Lesbian and Gay Association

Section 377 Penal Code criminalizes "carnal knowledge of any man against the order of nature", with a penalty of 2 years up to life imprisonment and a possible corporal punishment of a 100 lashes. (PB)

Islamic law was re-introduced in 1990. "Pakistani civil law punishes those who have gay sex with two years to life in prison, while Islamic law, which also can be enforced legally, calls for up to 100 lashes or death by stoning." (RW/886)

[While it seems unlikely that Section 377 would apply to lesbians, it seems likely that Islamic law would]

"Arrests and trials do not occur … As elsewhere with unenforced sodomy prescriptions, the existence of the law is a threat - a threat conducive to blackmail. While the law is largely irrelevant to life in Pakistan, those acting in its name are not…..Police recurrently take money and/or sex from those they know to be involved in same-sex sex (commercial or not). (Chapter on Pakistan by Stephen O Murray and Badruddin Khan in "Sociolegal Control of Homosexuality".)

"The World Organization Against Torture (WOAT) is targeting Pakistan over the recent whipping of two males allegedly caught having sex in a public lavatory. Mohammad Zaman, 38, a mosque worker, and Fahimullah, a 14-year-old student, were lashed publicly May 17 in Bara Bazar in Pakistan's western Khyber Agency, an area administered by local Afridi tribespeople.

Zaman received 75 blows and the boy got 32. They allegedly confessed to Maulana Abdul Hadi, head of Tanzeem Ittehad-e-Ulema-e-Qabail (TIUQ), the local Islamic ruling party, and to Afridi elders that they committed sodomy. Zaman allegedly paid Fahimullah 100 rupees ($3) to have sex with him. The Pakistan government launched a paramilitary operation in August 1995 against the TIUQ following their establishment of a paramilitary force and an independent judicial system. TIUQ regained prominence earlier this year after the government extended voting rights to the tribespeople." (RW/164/18.6.1997)

http://www.sodomylaws.org/world/pakistan/pakistan.htm

Talking of which, I read these Pakistan sex laws, three of which I remember:

1) You cannot masturbate.
2) You cannot have oral sex.
3) You cannot have anal sex with your wife. But here's the kicker - if a child witnesses his/her parents enganged in the act of sodomy, it's incumbent upon him/her to report it. WTF???

These I read in the the homoeopathy book that is taught at the homoeo college (I got my hands on it, my aunt was studying homoeopathy).

The output of our madrassas are:
1. Maulavis (which are useless)
2. Terrorists (which are harmful)
3. Violent Protestors (again which only cause damage)

Talking of which, I read these Pakistan sex laws, three of which I remember:

1) You cannot masturbate.
2) You cannot have oral sex.
3) You cannot have anal sex with your wife. But here's the kicker - if a child witnesses his/her parents enganged in the act of sodomy, it's incumbent upon him/her to report it. WTF???

These I read in the the homoeopathy book that is taught at the homoeo college (I got my hands on it, my aunt was studying homoeopathy).

:nuts: :nuts:

ao what's the punishment if someone caught ? :lol:

^^ I think its stoning, but apart from that I think there should be some liberty in the laws, its not that these laws have prevented stoning or prevented people from not doing all the stuff mentioned.

How can you justify stoning for masturbation?

How can you justify stoning for masturbation?

Yeah, in that case no one would be left alive.

I have a better question. How the hell would you find out that someone was masturbating? Or having oral sex? Or engaging in sodomy (voyeuristic children notwithstanding)?

I have no idea how they would find out, and why they would make laws like these anyways.

These should moreso be taught in general (if they dont want people to do all of this) rather then making a law out of them, but then again how would they educate the common person?

They cant even get the common person to put a condom on, forget about these.

To be fair, all countries have such laws. I don't think it's a matter of actually catching someone do it, but more a matter of what kind of activities are "looked down upon in the society", hence they appear as laws.

As for education, it's a shame that such topics are taboo. Things are starting to change, but not by much. Of course, I'm extremely liberal, and understand that not everyone's like that, but I'm sure that people can be educated without crossing any lines.

Having anal sex is prohibited by Islam in all sects and that is why there is a law against it. If you read the preamble of the constitution you will then understand why these laws have been enacted.

Ok, what about masturbation and oral sex? That's a law pulled right out of someone's ass. Not that I care. Again, this is not endemic to Pakistan. Sex laws are made like this everywhere - "I wouldn't want my daughter to have sex before 18, let's make that unlawful".

Hello guys & gal,

We have been talking for a long time against our mullahs / Maulvis/ religious extremists. We all know killing extremists or supressing extremism won't solve this issue but only give it a rise.

What do you think is the best way to eradicate extemism in our society and how people should be educated about the true nature and understanding of Islam.


So i request you to come up with some good ideas. Thanks.

Moved here, I will post my reply tomorrow ..

The sad reality in our country is that religion is a tool that anybody can use anytime, anywhere for their own benefit(s).

It is shocking to see that our religious leaders, Mullahs, Imams, or anyothers, think of themselves above the common man just for the reason that their preaching Islam.

I think there are very less Mosques in Karachi which are totally pure from hatred, sect rift, extremism. One can goto any mosque and he/she will find various stalls outside the mosque distributing hate material whether against other countries or against the Government.

I am baffled to see Mullahs and such call other muslims "Kafirs" when they themselves are not angles. A person, few years back was stoned to death because of him asking a question to an imam during friday prayers when the imam had drifted from the religious preachings to start hate against America and its allies, that person was stoned to death, unfortunately.

That is just one example of how powerful the religious leaders are when the common man is totally empty religiously, to realize that their wrong.

The way we can tackle this problem is to promote true, pure, religious leaders. They are present in the country, they do not come out because of the fact that they might aswell be stoned because of them preaching the "right" Islam.

Unfortunately those people are called America's "agents" or the Governments "agents" due to the only fact that their right in their version of Islam.

I would have suggested a more forceful reaction to these illogical religious leaders, but considering the current Lal Masjid issue, I presume the person who starts this action would eventually be shot.

We need to promote those people who show the true face of Islam, which is pure and peaceful. The Government should initiate some programs regarding that aswell where their security would not be compromised.

I agree with the views of Fahad, but i think the use of force is not a good solution always. Use of force only creates a pressure cooker situtation. I think government with the help of our intellectuals and true islamic scholars should think of a long term strategy to preach the true islam and to get rid of idiotic traditional mullahs. since we are talking about solution, in my view :

1. all mosques should be brought under the control of government,
2. Single friday sermon for all mosques,
3. no politics or hatred for other sects, strict laws need to be made to control non-compliance
4. ban on the use of loud speakers other than Azaan (prayer call)
5. promote Quran in urdu & local languages
6. All madarrassas should be declard government schools
7. Islamiat should be a vast and must subject for everyone at school
8. Anyone forcibly trying to impose his own islam, should be punished & turned to jail.


any more suggestions wellcome, perhaps we can finalize and send it to government.

The Government is hopelessly incapable of delaing with extremism if the "silent moderate majority" chooses to remain silent. Tell me something, why arent the moderates assembling against the ninjas of Lal Masjid? If the "silent moderate majority" is the force that rules Pakistan, then they certainly need to show their numbers!

In Karachi we have MQM which is always there to deal with such lunatics. I remember when the MMA was taking out rallies in opposition of the WPB the MQM turned out in hundreds of thousands on M.A. Jinnah road in support and showed those extremists that they are not the ones calling the shots.

So where are the moderates in Islamabad? Why is nobody standing up to these ninjas parading in the Jinnah suparmarket harrasing the shopkeepers?

What the Government needs to do is establish a cell in every police station of every city of every province of Pakistan to specifically deal with hate-preachers. They need to setup hotlines where moderate people like ourselves can call and complain about hate-preaching in any mosque so that swift action can be taken against the perpetrators.

The Government has tried and failed to register all the seminaries of Pakistan. The Government needs to renew its efforts and do away with the people proving to be impediments in the struggle to eradicate extremism from our society. Our society cannot afford people like Ejaz-ul-Haq who are known to be KISSASSES!

The moderate majority needs to take out rallies in every city of Pakistan to show the extremists that they are not the only ones who can come out on the streets.

Until and unless the Moderate people of Pakistan dont come out of their perpetual state of lethargy and this attitute of "sub chalta hai" is not eradicated, I can assure you that the Government or anyother institution will remain helpless against extremism.

We need to set examples. Need I remind you that this whole Lal Masjid fiasco started due to the Governments inability to deal with these bastards in the first place! The whole country has forgotten that Lal Masjid is built on illegally occupied land and so are 80 other mosques in Islamabad! All this is not happening because these lunatics want to implement Shariah in Pakistan, no this is happening because these people want to bury the issue of the illegal land. They want to deal such a blow to the Government that the Government never dare try to vacate them from that land ever again. That is what this is all about!

We need to set examples. We need to instill the fear of accountability amongst the extremist forces of Pakistan!

My :2cents:

I agree that the moderates in Pakistan should come forward at this time to diffuse the whole situation, though I cant really imagine the situation being diffused if they come out. Considering how violent the extremist (yes I will call them extremists) mullahs and the burkha-clad women are, they should for now be shown the door courtesy the Police.

The moderates in Pakistan would not come out because of the fact that they know the extremists have more street power, considering the whole population which has nothing more to do then take its daily frustration out on anyone they can get their hands onto.

And its more like American politics, no matter how much the Democrats try, its always a Republican the country votes as President, thus the moderates, through their own channels know that they will be coming in power at the end of the day.

But does that solve the problem? It has never, we need leaders and governments that are moderate, but extremely strict in dealing with issues like the one that has gripped Islamabad and its citizens.

I hope you guys here won't go accusing me for being a 'troll' to bring up the subject of word P a k i being an insult or not. But I think it should be open to debate. I sincerely want to know why we think word 'P a k i' is an insult.

P a k i might have been used by some bigots in Europe esp. in UK to discriminate against people of Indo-Pak region. May they be Indians, Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans or Pakistani origin.

I have a problem with letting other define the word P a k i.

In Urdu the word P a k i has good meaning like cleaniness.

So why not reclaim "this word". After all P a k i is not a bastardization of a word, just an abbreviation. So please lets not go calling PurePaki or anyone else troll for using this word.

Before Pakia, I wanted to use ProudPaki too.

I hope you guys here won't go accusing me for being a 'troll' to bring up the subject of word P a k i being an insult or not. But I think it should be open to debate. I sincerely want to know why we think word 'P a k i' is an insult.

P a k i might have been used by some bigots in Europe esp. in UK to discriminate against people of Indo-Pak region. May they be Indians, Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans or Pakistani origin.

I have a problem with letting other define the word P a k i.

In Urdu the word P a k i has good meaning like cleaniness.

So why not reclaim "this word". After all P a k i is not a bastardization of a word, just an abbreviation. So please lets not go calling PurePaki or anyone else troll for using this word.

Before Pakia, I wanted to use ProudPaki too.


depends on the context. ...i am OK with both Pure or Proud ****.

^^ dang it - it is already classified as insult :)

Having anal sex is prohibited by Islam in all sects and that is why there is a law against it. If you read the preamble of the constitution you will then understand why these laws have been enacted.

Not all sects UP.

Talking of which, I read these Pakistan sex laws, three of which I remember:

1) You cannot masturbate.
2) You cannot have oral sex.
3) You cannot have anal sex with your wife. But here's the kicker - if a child witnesses his/her parents enganged in the act of sodomy, it's incumbent upon him/her to report it. WTF???

These I read in the the homoeopathy book that is taught at the homoeo college (I got my hands on it, my aunt was studying homoeopathy).

NO guys do not read too much into that. Nothing but gay sex is prohibited, all other are okay as long as you are in a wedlock and your spouse does not complain.

NO guys do not read too much into that. Nothing but gay sex is prohibited, all other are okay as long as you are in a wedlock and your spouse does not complain.

Jub mian biwi razi toh kya karay ga qazi...

NO guys do not read too much into that. Nothing but gay sex is prohibited, all other are okay as long as you are in a wedlock and your spouse does not complain.

FYI, anal sex is prohibited in Quran specifically.

FYI, anal sex is prohibited in Quran specifically.

Yes I'm pretty sure thats the case.

@ vazim and oogabooga.

I have been trying to find any verse in the Quran that forbids it but I couldn't. Can you please share it with us?

All I could find is that it is forbidden by scholars based on some hadiths.

@ vazim and oogabooga.

I have been trying to find any verse in the Quran that forbids it but I couldn't. Can you please share it with us?

All I could find is that it is forbidden by scholars based on some hadiths.

In light of which, I retract my previous statement. :D

Same goes with Oral.

FYI, anal sex is prohibited in Quran specifically.
Nowhere in Koran it talks about it. Though in Torah it is categorically prohibited between man-man and man-woman. All references by Muslims are never credible. Some of muslim sects allow it, like we say in Karachi, when your wife is going through "Geeli Pitch" phase. Let me say in Urdu, Yar pitch geeli hai, ball tou turn hogi hee.

Nowhere in Koran it talks about it. Though in Torah it is categorically prohibited between man-man and man-woman. All references by Muslims are never credible. Some of muslim sects allow it, like we say in Karachi, when your wife is going through "Geeli Pitch" phase. Let me say in Urdu, Yar pitch geeli hai, ball tou turn hogi hee.

That is both perverse and disgusting! I dont know whether to laugh or barf? :ohno:

Well anyways it's not in the Quran. So as long as husband and wife are ok with whatever floats their boat..it's ok.

^^ how do you know its not in the Quran?

That is both perverse and disgusting! I dont know whether to laugh or barf? :ohno:
No kidding!

Nowhere in Koran it talks about it. Though in Torah it is categorically prohibited between man-man and man-woman. All references by Muslims are never credible. Some of muslim sects allow it, like we say in Karachi, when your wife is going through "Geeli Pitch" phase. Let me say in Urdu, Yar pitch geeli hai, ball tou turn hogi hee.

:omg:


Verse 2:223

Yusuf Ali:
Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear God. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe.

Zohurul Hoque:
Your wives are a farm for you; so come to your farm as-and-when you please, and take steps for yourselves. And revere Allah; and know that you are going to meet Him. And give glad tidings to the Believers.

T. J. Irving:
Your wives are [meant] for you to cultivate: so go to your cultivation whenever you wish. Send things on ahead for yourselves, and heed God; know that you will be meeting Him. Proclaim such to believers!

T.U. Hilali-M. Khan:
Your wives are a tilth for you, so go to your tilth (have sexual relations with your wives in any manner as long as it is in the vagina and not in the anus), when or how you will, and send (good deeds, or ask Allâh to bestow upon you pious offspring) before you for your ownselves. And fear Allâh, and know that you are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give good tidings to the believers (O Muhammad SAW).

M. Pickthall:
Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad).

M.H. Shakir: Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like, and do good beforehand for yourselves, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.




Albaqarah specifically says your wives are your fields, (i.e. to cultivate) it only means vagina, however, if u have your personal elaborations then God helps you.

@Vazim.

three things i would like to say.

1. Translation vs authors viewpoint.
All things mentioned in brackets are always the translators point of view and not a translation from the Quran. So it must be clear that the Quran does not explicitly mentions it but the translator thinks this is what it refers to. And none of the translators except one ,T.U. Hilali-M. Khan, writes of it. Yusuf Ali and pickthall are the best known translations agreed to upon by scholars and universities all over the world.

2. From where the authors viewpoint is derived.
Now coming to the translators point of view, it is thought be in relation to a hadith from Al-Tirmidhi and Ibn-e-Ahmad but their ahadeeth are certainly not even as reliable as those of Sahih bukhari and Muslim( may Allah be pleased with all of them) .


3. Quote Quran in its context and with reference to other verses.
If you want to quote the Quran, its should be quoted in its context. If you read a few verses before and after Allah is answering questions raised by the jews. One of their myths was that if a man went to have sex (vaginal)lying from behind the child would be a squint. And this verse is in response to it.

So worth noting here is that the Quran does not prohibit anal sex explicitly. Its only some ahadeeth as can be clearly seen in the translations you quoted i.e within brackets means authors understanding.

Also it says approach your tilth however you wish- its a verse that is permitting something not disallowing something. The verse just before explicitly prohibits wine and gambling, approaching women during menses, marriage with unbelievers and then this verse(which is the very next one) is one that allows people to have sex in any position.

For your reference here are the ahadeeth from which some scholars base their comments.

The ahadeeth.

Translation of Sahih Muslim, Book 8, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 3364:
"Jabir (b. Abdullah) (Allah be pleased with him) reported that the Jews used to say that when one comes to one's wife through the vagina, but being on her back, and she becomes pregnant, the child has a squint. So the verse came down:' Your wives are your tilth; go then unto your tilth, as you may desire.' ".

Imaam Ahmad, 2/479:
"Cursed is the one who approaches his wife in her rectum"

al-Tirmidhi, no. 1/243:
"The one who has intercourse with a menstruating woman, or with a woman in her rectum, or who goes to a fortune-teller, has disbelieved in what was revealed to Muhammad."

Its from the above two ahadeeth that the authors get their viewpoint and translation of the above verse. The hadeeth from Sahih muslim says why this verse was revealed and does not prohibit anal sex or even confine the meaning to just one opening.


Some people who think it is permissible mention that approaching your wife(as used in arabic) only means sexual intercourse through the vagina and only between man and women. So anal sex, oral sex, gays, lesbians,masturbation etc aren't even referred to in this verse. However, I am not going into that.

My point here is not whether anal sex is good or bad or allowed or not. But please do not attribute to the Quran what is derived from scholars thinking and ahadeeth(week or sound).

The works of ahadeeth were works of men and can never have the same authenticity as that of the Quran, hence we should always distinguish between the two.

@Vazim.

three things i would like to say.

1. Translation vs authors viewpoint.
All things mentioned in brackets are always the translators point of view and not a translation from the Quran. So it must be clear that the Quran does not explicitly mentions it but the translator thinks this is what it refers to. And none of the translators except one ,T.U. Hilali-M. Khan, writes of it. Yusuf Ali and pickthall are the best known translations agreed to upon by scholars and universities all over the world.

2. From where the authors viewpoint is derived.
Now coming to the translators point of view, it is thought be in relation to a hadith from Al-Tirmidhi and Ibn-e-Ahmad but their ahadeeth are certainly not even as reliable as those of Sahih bukhari and Muslim( may Allah be pleased with all of them) .


3. Quote Quran in its context and with reference to other verses.
If you want to quote the Quran, its should be quoted in its context. If you read a few verses before and after Allah is answering questions raised by the jews. One of their myths was that if a man went to have sex (vaginal)lying from behind the child would be a squint. And this verse is in response to it.

So worth noting here is that the Quran does not prohibit anal sex explicitly. Its only some ahadeeth as can be clearly seen in the translations you quoted i.e within brackets means authors understanding.

Also it says approach your tilth however you wish- its a verse that is permitting something not disallowing something. The verse just before explicitly prohibits wine and gambling, approaching women during menses, marriage with unbelievers and then this verse(which is the very next one) is one that allows people to have sex in any position.

For your reference here are the ahadeeth from which some scholars base their comments.

The ahadeeth.

Translation of Sahih Muslim, Book 8, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 3364:
"Jabir (b. Abdullah) (Allah be pleased with him) reported that the Jews used to say that when one comes to one's wife through the vagina, but being on her back, and she becomes pregnant, the child has a squint. So the verse came down:' Your wives are your tilth; go then unto your tilth, as you may desire.' ".

Imaam Ahmad, 2/479:
"Cursed is the one who approaches his wife in her rectum"

al-Tirmidhi, no. 1/243:
"The one who has intercourse with a menstruating woman, or with a woman in her rectum, or who goes to a fortune-teller, has disbelieved in what was revealed to Muhammad."

Its from the above two ahadeeth that the authors get their viewpoint and translation of the above verse. The hadeeth from Sahih muslim says why this verse was revealed and does not prohibit anal sex or even confine the meaning to just one opening.


Some people who think it is permissible mention that approaching your wife(as used in arabic) only means sexual intercourse through the vagina and only between man and women. So anal sex, oral sex, gays, lesbians,masturbation etc aren't even referred to in this verse. However, I am not going into that.

My point here is not whether anal sex is good or bad or allowed or not. But please do not attribute to the Quran what is derived from scholars thinking and ahadeeth(week or sound).

The works of ahadeeth were works of men and can never have the same authenticity as that of the Quran, hence we should always distinguish between the two.


The point why i quoted those verses with bracket is for those who believe that Quran allows anykind of sex while reffering to this verse. So that's why i quoted several translations.

Zohurul Hoque:
Your wives are a farm for you; so come to your farm as-and-when you please, and take steps for yourselves. And revere Allah; and know that you are going to meet Him. And give glad tidings to the Believers.

Okay Quran doesn't prohibit anal sex but it doesn't allow it either! Similarly ther are so many things that are not prohibited in Islam but we take them granted for good. Tell me if sex with animals is porhibited in quran ?

What i'm saying is that simply it is clear from the verse that you go to your wife to cultivate! & there is only place to cultivate.

Or if you want to have sex which is enjoyment for both there is still one place where both partners can enjoy. Anus is for excretion!!! No cultivation & no enjoyment for female!

For those who believe it allows then why Islam doesn't allow gay relations ?

Guys,

That's exactly the point. No where it has even said anything about Vagina. Manu muslim sects have no reference on these things, however Figh Hanafia is openly against it esp in Deobandi sect. Barelvi's do not allow it either, however the reasoning is not there. In Deobandis' its more of a moral issue. Other sects like Bohris, Shias, Ismailis, Darooz etc are quite enlightening on these issues. i also have a book on Fatwa's, there is a whole chapter on masturbation amongst men, trust me no where it tackles the issue directly. The only thing they refer is thou shalth not kill your children, hence masturbation is haram. In Fiqh Jafaria, masturbation is punishable by putting a burning charcoal in the hand of a boy who masturbates, but this is for the father to do it.

OK, I find it interesting that you chose this particular verse. I think it was tought in O'Levels or somewhere I else that I can't remember, but this has a whole story behind it.

There was this Makkah guy who married this Madina girl (they are famous names, I just don't remember). He tried all these funny sex positions and she stopped him saying that Madina people only do missionary style (how she knows that I never figured out, maybe her mom taught it!). Anyway, the guy got pissed and shared his plight with some other people that he wasn't getting any kinky sex. Anyway, the word spread and finally it reached to one Mr. Muhammad. And this verse was purportedly revelaed (or whatever the correct word is) in response.

The thing in quotes is complete hogwash. It's some dimwit's point of view who is too anal about anal. This verse specifically means that you can try out the whole kamasutra if you want, sexual positions are not restricted to missionary.

Personally speaking, I don't know what Islam says on anal. Nor do I care. Even if I did, it wouldn't make any difference, I find it revolting.

If you don't really care, why bother posting here?

Why would you even want to go up that route anyway?

I see a very high quality drop in this thread and the title should be changed.

You're having an intellectual discussion about masturbation?

If you don't really care, why bother posting here?
Huh? I posted coz I knew the provenance of this verse. As long as I'm actually adding something to the discussion, why can't I post? I just put my own thoughts on the matter at the end, which have nothing to do with what I said above it.

Where did you come up with that story btw? If its so famous it must have a lot of authentic material on it. Please provide a valid reference.

I think i have clearly mentioned in my post when and why this verse was revealed.

Where did you come up with that story btw? If its so famous it must have a lot of authentic material on it. Please provide a valid reference.

I think i have clearly mentioned in my post when and why this verse was revealed.
Why are you getting so antagonistic? If you think I'm wrong, you just have to ask. I'll try and find a reference for you, like I said I was taught this in I believe O'Level Islamiat.

Why are you getting so antagonistic? If you think I'm wrong, you just have to ask. I'll try and find a reference for you, like I said I was taught this in I believe O'Level Islamiat.

If you are basing this story on a hadith (I have heard of it) then you should know about the anal issue from hadiths as well.

If you are basing this story on a hadith (I have heard of it) then you should know about the anal issue from hadiths as well.
I can't understand what you trying to say, Sir. Kindly rephrase.

edit.

I was hoping we start a new topic now..

What countries from the Muslim world do you see leading the Ummah in the coming years and why?

Pakistan because of Pakistan's growing economy and strong self-reliant military.

UAE because of their strong economy and their Pakistani trained growing military.

Pakistan because of Pakistan's growing economy and strong self-reliant military.

UAE because of their strong economy and their Pakistani trained growing military.

Good argument...I would like to say Pakistan too.....BUT the one substance that is missing from the winning formula is not having the self-confidence and mental strength....which is unfortunately vital!

Good argument...I would like to say Pakistan too.....BUT the one substance that is missing from the winning formula is not having the self-confidence and mental strength....which is unfortunately vital!
Yup, and I am sure we will see some replies in this thread supporting that assessment.

I would say Pakistan, Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Pakistan for thier nuclear power and military and immense amount of technical knowledge and the freedom to do anything which if used in a proper way can take us really really far.. when we seperated from india we had 2 factories and if u look today we have gone very far comparing to 1947 but its sad we had some corrupt leaders otherwise pakistan was going really really far... but there is hope and we should work forward in making pakistan a welfare state. 2ndly Pakistan has excellent relations with all countries including Saudi Arabia and the fact that we are a nuclear power will shield all Muslim nations from any such attack

Iran is in the same position as Pakistan in terms of progress and I will say exactly the same thing for Iran as I did for Pakistan.. these 2 countries have the will and the people to do it.. they are not like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait who just give thier oil to the americans and see mUslims dieing around them

Saudi Arabia has the money and all powers need energy source to surviive and Pakistan is lucky to have it..

However one prob with Iran, Sunni countries dun have good relations with them, Pakistan's relations are imporving and Abdullah just met Iranian President so signs are looking good.

^^ I think Iran has more educated people than Pakistan does.

^^ I think Iran has more educated people than Pakistan does.
Iran's literacy rate is higher but we have more educated people!

Iran has est. 50 million literates...

Pakistan has est. 90 million literates...

^^ so? that number is also more than the total population of many EU countries (maybe)...that desn't prove anything. its the rate that matters. also in Pakistan any person who can read newspaper is called a literate person..not a correct definition of literacy

Iran's literacy rate is higher but we have more educated people!

Iran has est. 50 million literates...

Pakistan has est. 90 million literates...

Also, Irans 50 Million literate people are from a total of 70-80 million population! Wheres Pakistans 90 million people are from a total population of 165 million.

^^ so? that number is also more than the total population of many EU countries (maybe)...that desn't prove anything. its the rate that matters. also in Pakistan any person who can read newspaper is called a literate person..not a correct definition of literacy

^^ Not to mention the 'ghost graduates' from our infamous ghost schools! :lol: :lol:

As for the detractors, Iran can be judged from the fact that they maintain all of their US equipment and even working on newer projects even when they are sanctioned by the West. Iran is close or probably more advanced than pakistan when it comes to indigenous defense products except Pakistan's nuke and missile program. Pakistan even bought Cobra spares from Iran when it was under sanction pre-9/11,

Thats because Pakistan has only recently started a SERIOUS drive for indigenous capability! Thats why we are absorbing new technologies and asking for ToT to provide our engineers and scientists with more experience.

^^ Not to mention the 'ghost graduates' from our infamous ghost schools! :lol: :lol:

As for the detractors, Iran can be judged from the fact that they maintain all of their US equipment and even working on newer projects even when they are sanctioned by the West. Iran is close or probably more advanced than pakistan when it comes to indigenous defense products except Pakistan's nuke and missile program. Pakistan even bought Cobra spares from Iran when it was under sanction pre-9/11,

The spares that they have come from cannibalizing the left over Western hardware from the Shah Pehlavi era. And what technology are you referring to? Their fighter aircraft called "sagheh" which has only made a maiden flight and then recently in a parade somewhere and consists of cannibalized parts from the Western hardware leftover from the Shah's era? Irans military is a joke compared to Pakistans. If you want cold hard fact then you should visit and read Pakdef more often.

UP, you idiot! You know tons more than me as far as the army is concerned, speak up sugarpuff!

Most of their indigenous products are just remakes of western versions with little or no innovation. They basically decided to try to keep their fleet of American weapons alive by creating a capability at home to repair and build more of these weapons. As for the Cobra's Pakistan have much more advanced versions of this type of helicopter compared to Iran. And all their new equipment is just based off designs from decades past!

for once can we not talk about army and helicopters and nukes. I am sure there is more to economy than just military

The Iranians may not have the latest military hardware but they sure have the biggest balls in the neighborhood.

I agree , they do have balls. But they have balls cos they have OIL...take that away from them, i dont know how they would react to the world/US pressure...

Exactly! See, balls and oil go hand in hand. :yes:

Not only balls but they have mines and a waterway which is used for the transportation of 25% of the worlds crude oil supply.

Then they have missiles capable of reaching Israel and people in the upper echelons of power who are crazy enough to use them.

However, I must say that I admire Irans guts. I love how they "stick it to the man". :D

The spares that they have come from cannibalizing the left over Western hardware from the Shah Pehlavi era. And what technology are you referring to? Their fighter aircraft called "sagheh" which has only made a maiden flight and then recently in a parade somewhere and consists of cannibalized parts from the Western hardware leftover from the Shah's era? Irans military is a joke compared to Pakistans. If you want cold hard fact then you should visit and read Pakdef more often.

UP, you idiot! You know tons more than me as far as the army is concerned, speak up sugarpuff!

Cannibalizing for more than 20 years? :nuts:

Yaar at least I thought you had a head based on what I saw on the other threads. Don't get this pseudo nationalism get to your head.. :ohno:

What about pakdef? They are speculators. Does any one of them on active duty in the army? How can pakistan's cobras be too advanced when US doesn't like giving advanced stuff to us. They even removed 'sensitive stuff' from our f16s [if we ever get them].

Exactly! See, balls and oil go hand in hand. :yes:

Not only balls but they have mines and a waterway which is used for the transportation of 25% of the worlds crude oil supply.

Then they have missiles capable of reaching Israel and people in the upper echelons of power who are crazy enough to use them.

However, I must say that I admire Irans guts. I love how they "stick it to the man". :D

Pakistan should place missiles right at the corner of the Western Most part of the Balochistan border, I bet this will make the Americans shit in thier pants.

Then we can of course invade Oman, who claims that Gawadar is theirs! - haha bunch of jokers.

Cannibalizing for more than 20 years? :nuts:

Yaar at least I thought you had a head based on what I saw on the other threads. Don't get this pseudo nationalism get to your head.. :ohno:

What about pakdef? They are speculators. Does any one of them on active duty in the army? How can pakistan's cobras be too advanced when US doesn't like giving advanced stuff to us. They even removed 'sensitive stuff' from our f16s [if we ever get them].
It is a fact that Pakistani cobra's are more advanced than their Iranian counterparts. The PakDef people consist mostly of retired personnel and people with connections to very high positions. Their information is reliable and 100% on the mark. Their credibility beats yours by miles!

Cannibalizing for more than 20 years? :nuts:

Yaar at least I thought you had a head based on what I saw on the other threads. Don't get this pseudo nationalism get to your head.. :ohno:

What about pakdef? They are speculators. Does any one of them on active duty in the army? How can pakistan's cobras be too advanced when US doesn't like giving advanced stuff to us. They even removed 'sensitive stuff' from our f16s [if we ever get them].

Well I appreciate that you consider me a person "with a head". :tongue3:

It is a well known fact that out of almost a 100 F-14 Tomcats that Iran had while the Shah was ruling, they only have 40-something in active service today, which is still a significant force considering how capable the F-14 Tomcat is. There are even videos documenting cannibalized Tomcat's rusting away in Iranian military bases.

As far as the cobra's are concerned, the US has given Pakistan attack helicopters to deal with the Taliban in our Northern Regions. Even India acknowledged this fact, I read an article on Rediff once in which the author was bitching about how the US shouldnt give Pakistan sophisticated weaponry because we (Pakistan) will eventually use it against India. And the author mentioned a number of weapons systems including the Cobra. But thats not what I am basing my opinion on. Some people posted pictures of our SSG and the Cobras on PAKDEF! But thats not what I am basing my opinion on either. I am basing my opinion on the congressional report that listed all assistance provided to Pakistan to fight the "War on Terrorism" and there was quite a ruckus in the Congress about how we should have never been given that hardware.

As for PAKDEF, it is by far the most credible source of news on the Pakistan Armed forces. PAKDEF has people who are either currently in the Army or retired Army personnel with very good inside sources. If you read the discussions over there you will see that those guys dont have any bias and they accept all of our (Pakistans) shortcomings.

I dont know if you are a member there or not but I suggest you visit the site and see for yourself how much information they have.

And my being critical of the Army proves that I am no Nationalist. I cant even begin to recall how many times I have argued with UP about how our Army has done this wrong and done that wrong. But we all know UP, hes quite the enthusiastic 5-yearold! :tongue3:

:jk: UP. :lol:

Sometimes I wish I could take all the annoying haramis and put them in a oven! HAHA! NOT J/K

Whooooo meeeee? :(

Yes you you MQM supporter!!! :bash: :banana: :lol:

And oooga / UP / other ids :tongue3: , I never said Pakistan didn't have Cobras. Sure, right now pakistan is not buying spares for Cobras from Iran anymore but it did pre-9/11 when the whole fleet probably consisted of 20 choppers :shifty: I saw it on pakistanidefence website.

Look at it this way. Pakistan fires one or two missiles when it is time for missile tests while Iran fired dozens of them in just one of their tests.:eek2: :shocked: A lot of their progress is a result of the education for which Shah had played a big part as well.

Yes you you MQM supporter!!! :bash: :banana: :lol:

And oooga / UP / other ids :tongue3: , I never said Pakistan didn't have Cobras. Sure, right now pakistan is not buying spares for Cobras from Iran anymore but it did pre-9/11 when the whole fleet probably consisted of 20 choppers :shifty: I saw it on pakistanidefence website.

Look at it this way. Pakistan fires one or two missiles when it is time for missile tests while Iran fired dozens of them in just one of their tests.:eek2: :shocked: A lot of their progress is a result of the education for which Shah had played a big part as well.
If you are basing your entire assessment on data from PDF then I highly suggest you stop right here. That site is the WORST possible site to get defense information from in any case! And the reason why Iran fires more missiles is because they are trying to flex their muscle in front of the Americans and there is no other reason.

^^ No it also means they have more missiles and means like money and engineers which comes back to education.

Do you believe that if we take the nukes aside, Pakistan military could fight Iran in balochistan?

^^ No it also means they have more missiles and means like money and engineers which comes back to education.

Do you believe that if we take the nukes aside, Pakistan military could fight Iran in balochistan?
That is the most incorrect statement regarding the armed forces of Pakistan that I have ever heard on this forum. How can you make such an assessment that Iran has more missiles? The Pakistani cobras are equipped with Bakthiar-Shikan missiles which are locally produced and have proven themselves in conflict already.

And yes I believe Pakistan would be able to fight Iran in Balochistan. We have the weapons and manpower to take them on if attacked. This is all hypothetically speaking as there is no reason to fight Iran in a conflict.

IDEAS 2006 Defence Exhibition
Usman Ansari reports on the biannual Pakistani defence show that was held in Karachi at the end of November 2006

The previous IDEAS defence shows have grown continuously in size and scope, and IDEAS2006, held in the financial powerhouse that is Pakistan’s coastal city of Karachi, continued that trend. With daily mobility displays of Pakistani Army vehicles, an impressive naval display, and culminating in one of Asia’s most impressive firepower displays, IDEAS2006 was a perfect opportunity to showcase the latest and best in local Pakistani security technology and military hardware.
In fact it can be claimed that IDEAS2006 grew significantly from previous exhibitions, and even after four days it was possible to have not had time to visit all the exhibitor’s stands. This is a reflection of the resounding success the exhibition was internationally as many globally renowned companies attended. The close ties with other countries such as Turkey were apparent with Turkish companies virtually booking one entire exhibition hall. The proud title above the door adequately displayed the sentiment, ‘Welcome to Turkey’. Turkish companies have shown their expertise in a number of areas and have demonstrated they can compete with more well known companies on the international stage. Aselsen, Roketsan, MJ Onuk, and TAI were all prominent exhibitors and surrounded by companies from the well-established Turkish small arms industry. As would be expected from companies from a country very close to Pakistan, a number of them have had significant success in winning contracts from Pakistan. TAI, which has done very well with the Turkish Air Force F-16 fleet, was named as the company that would handle the mid-life up-grade of the PAF F-16 fleet, in conjunction with Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra. TAI has significant expertise in this area having not only carried out this work but also assembled F-16s for the TAF. MJ Onuk on the other hand recently won an order from the PN of two of its MRTP-33 FAC for use with the SSG(N). These are formidable craft that combine speed with a deadly punch of four Harpoon anti-ship missiles. The company has had significant success at home producing craft for the Turkish security forces (not least the coastguard), who rely heavily on MJ Onuk vessels for the fast interception of suspect shipping in and around Turkish waters.
Lockheed Martin was also present and is a company that will be doing business with Pakistan for some time. Its principal product that was of interest during IDEAS2006 was of course the F-16, a significant order of which is a major plank of the PAF’s regeneration programme. The F-16C Block-52 will form the ‘tip’ of the spear when it is inducted into service bringing PAF strength and capabilities into line with other modern air-forces. Another aspect of this relationship is the ubiquitous P-3C Orion, and the PN is currently in the process of significantly boosting its number of this incredibly capable MPA, so as to have a greater capability to patrol the waters of the Arabian Sea and northern Indian Ocean in support of the WoT. In this regard Pakistan is an indispensable ally, and the work of the Pakistani armed forces has been essential in some of the success’ that have been had to date. The PN, as part of CTF-150, and in operations in territorial waters, is active in this endeavour every day of the year, and boosting the Orion fleet will allow Pakistan to increase the contribution it makes. One other area in which Lockheed Martin was hoping to boost Pakistani capabilities was the area of AEW. Lockheed Martin was clearly hoping to interest the PN in a P-3 fitted with the Hawkeye 2000 AEW system from what was displayed at its stand. This would be similar in appearance, but most likely superior in terms of performance, to the US Customs & Border Patrol Orion AEW aircraft that patrol the airspace around the American mainland. With the impending introduction of the Saab Eyrie AEW&C system into PAF service, there is a need for a similar system to monitor the airspace over the Pakistani littoral. The number of Eyrie systems on order is not sufficient in number to provide constant cover throughout a 24 hour period. Whether these efforts will bear fruit is uncertain, despite there being a clear need. However, Lockheed Martin was also offering ex-USN S-3 Viking aircraft for use in the maritime environment. It is unlikely that the PN will opt for such an aircraft (though there is speculation other South East Asian countries may) as it is being withdrawn for USN service in 2009, and there is no real requirement at present. If the PN is (as some analysts speculate) considering expanding the naval air arm to include fast strike jets in the long-term, it is likely these will be JF-17 or J/F-10 multi-role aircraft, and not a platform such as the Viking, despite its incredible capabilities. However, with Lockheed Martin assuring the aircraft will be supported throughout the life of the airframe, it is likely that a country in need of an aircraft for ASW will eventually opt for this impressive aircraft.
One other major American company present of note was Boeing which is one of the world’s most successful companies. There was much on display from the company including a model of the C-47 Chinook that made such an impact in the response to the earthquake that struck the previous year. Such a helicopter may be beyond the financial means of Pakistan but it would be a very welcome addition to the military/humanitarian airlift capabilities if procured. Furthermore a company closely linked with the F-16 deal was Raytheon, another American company that has been incredibly successful globally. During the exhibition it promoted a large number of its products and its range of CIWS may yet interest the PN, as it already operates the Vulcan Phalanx CIWS. Whether the PN will introduce the RAM, SeaRAM or the FLIR equipped latest version of the Phalanx remains to be seen, but the main product of note was the AIM-120 AMRAAM. Pakistan has officially (rumours persist, but until confirmed they are still an object of speculation) been without an operational BVR capability for two decades despite its best efforts to induct such a capability. In the aftermath of IDEAS2006 it was announced that Pakistan had signed a contract for 500 of the latest version of what is the global benchmark for air-launched BVR missiles. Clearly the past misfortunes of the PAF are being rectified.
French industry was also present and in a big way, if not in its own right with companies such as DCN, then as part of European multi-nationals such as EADS and MBDA. The inroads the French have made into Pakistan have been impressive, as they are involved in projects and supporting platforms used by all three services. In the past the major standard-bearer of French products has been the Mirage series of aircraft that currently serve the PAF so well, however at IDEAS2006, the main item the French were being linked with was the ongoing programme for the next generation PN SSK. Competition is fierce with the French contender being the DCN Marlin SSK. The submarine is a development of the DCN Scorpene SSK and incorporates technology from the Barracuda SSN, the French Navy’s next generation nuclear-powered hunter killer. The design incorporates a new diesel AIP system as standard, rather than as an optional extra, as with the current Pakistani Agosta-90B/Khalid class SSK. It has increased range and endurance, plus greater manoeuvrability for operations in shallow littoral waters. No less than the chief designer of the Marlin was present at IDEAS2006 to answer any questions that may be on the minds of the attending media, and the in this regard the large DCN stand was very busy. If there can be a criticism of the Marlin at this stage though it is a major one, it is yet to make its way off the drawing board, and therefore cannot be fully physically evaluated. The DCN maintained though that this was not a problem as the Marlin being an evolution of an existing design is actually proven technology. Not everybody was convinced by this argument, though it was a credible rebuttal of the criticism. The same criticism cannot be made about the Marlin’s rival, the German Type-214 SSK, as it has already won export orders from South Korea and Greece. HDW, the producer of the Type-214, has a major bone to pick with the French. It lost out against the DCN Scorpene in Chile (admittedly due to its own mistakes), and India (where it was not even permitted to bid due to - now resolved - legal issues). It would therefore be a major accomplishment to ‘steal’ a traditional French customer that has operated no other submarines but French ones since the early 1970s (Daphne – decommissioned, Agosta-70, and Agosta-90B). A development of the incredibly successful Type-209 series that incorporates technology from the deadly Type-212A, the Type-214 is a very potent platform which has already impressed enough to have won orders. According to the German officials present at IDEAS2006, the Type-214 was an ‘evolution’ of the Type-212A ‘revolution’. It appears to be more hydrodynamic than the Marlin, (though that should of course not be a deciding factor in itself), and incorporates a hydrogen fuel-cell AIP that is integral to the submarine design. It comes equipped with a formidable range of weaponry that may include the IDAS submarine launched missile system that is capable of engaging air or surface threats. Whatever the outcome of the competition, the PN will find itself equipped with an incredibly capable platform. One recent addition to the DCN submarine portfolio is the SMX-23, a small SSK intended for coastal operations or for first-time submarine operators. Though no such requirement exists for Pakistan to operate such a submarine, it would, (if inducted), allow the PN to keep a larger number of submarines at sea for no significant change to the operating costs of the fleet. If the contract would allow, it would also give Pakistan a product that it could export to friendly countries in the region such as Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and the Gulf States. All this would likely require a sizable increase in indigenous industrial capacity, not to mention an increase in finances so it is unlikely to happen. However, DCN clearly had its eye on a potentially more lucrative prize. There is a stated requirement with the PN for a number of corvettes, and DCN was not slow in displaying a model of the Gowind-120. The design incorporates technology derived from the Aquitaine FREMM programme and is undoubtedly a very capable vessel that would fully satisfy the PN’s requirements. This decision will not be made for sometime, (certainly not until the SSK programme has been finalised), but DCN clearly thought it was better to have their product established as a potential contender.
There were also companies present from many other countries. British defence companies such as Cobham and Martin Baker were some of the most high profile. Cobham is likely to supply the in-flight refuelling equipment for the Il-76 aircraft that were recently ordered from the Ukraine. This capability will significantly enhance the effectiveness of the PAF frontline fleet, and over time deliver considerable cost savings through allowing for a greater flight hours/fuel consumption ratio. IDEAS2006 also saw one of the most famous British companies attending, Martin Baker, the global leader in ejection seats for fast jets. The company has recently branched into providing crash resistant seats for helicopters, and has already built up a considerable range. However, it was its Mk-16LE state of the art ejection seat that was the hot topic for the company during IDEAS2006 as it has been selected for the FC-1/JF-17 (termed CN-16LE and PK-16LE respectively). Over 1000 seats in the series have already been delivered to date having been selected for service in a wide range of aircraft such as: Typhoon, Rafale, Lightning II, T-50, T-38, F-5 and T-6. What is perhaps an ultimate irony is that the seat has also been selected for the Indian HAL Tejas, which was once the great rival of the JF-17 in South Asia. The slow pace of that project has resulted in the Tejas as being years away from operational service if at all. The Mk-16 offers simple, minimal, long internal servicing to provide low cost of ownership. It has a ‘4th generation’ electronic sequencer, and features enhanced parachute deployment allowing for an ejecting pilot to be safely under a fully deployed canopy (even at low speed and low altitude), far quicker than is currently possible with other ejection seats. There were mixed fortunes during IDEAS2006, as with the crash of a PAF Mirage, Martin Baker saved the life of the pilot through having an earlier model of seat fitted, (though Pakistan lost an aircraft). Romanian industry was represented by the state owned company Romarm, which secures business for national companies. Over the years of the Cold War Romania built up considerable expertise in the arms industry, and has much to offer in the way of joint projects with Pakistan. The Greek company Sunlight Industrial Complex, makers of batteries for submarines and torpedoes was also present. Sunlight batteries power the Pakistani Agosta-90B and X-craft fleets, and according to the company representative offer greater flexibility over those fitted originally because they are longer-lasting. Though somewhat low-profile the clients this company has successfully managed to acquire speak volumes for its products. Not only are Sunlight batteries fitted to Greek submarines but they also fitted to Egyptian, Ukrainian, Polish, Peruvian, and South African submarines. Clearly the origin of the platform and therefore batteries are no constraint for Sunlight; they are plainly able to make their product fit customer requirements. Saab also displayed a number of its wares, but perhaps they were overshadowed by the main item of interest, the Saab-2000 AEW&C Eyrie that has been ordered by the PAF. When delivered they will fulfil a long-standing PAF requirement for an AEW capability. This need was first apparent in the 1980s when Soviet aircraft were able to bomb Pakistani villages along the border with Afghanistan that were marshalling areas for mujahideen forces preparing to enter the occupied the Soviet occupied country. Though the PAF carried out a number of successful intercepts and managed to down a number of Soviet aircraft, an AEW/AWACS capability would have denied the Soviets the relative element of surprise it had in many cases. Though America offered the E-2 Hawkeye AEW platform, this was deemed unsuitable by the PAF which held out for the E-3 Sentry AWACS. In the end, it got neither, and its source of high-end equipment, America, became off limits for just over a decade. The need was further underlined during the Kargil standoff in 1999. Though two Indian aircraft were shot down by ground forces, the PAF only played a deterrent role against IAF intrusion whilst a grim battle was waged across the Line of Control in Indian occupied Kashmir. Despite the fact Indian aircraft did not intrude into Pakistani airspace, the situational awareness over the mountainous Kashmir region was inadequate just as it was when the Soviets were occupying Afghanistan. Only an AEW/AEW&C/AWACS system would rectify this, and there was also pressure from the Indian side as the next year the IAF began an extensive evaluation of the Beriev A-50 AEW. Three years later the IAF ordered three Israeli Phalcon AEW systems (of the same type that had previously been sold to China, but the contract was cancelled due to American pressure). These were to be fitted on the Il-76 Candid, the airframes of which would be flown from the factory in Uzbekistan to Israel for the installation of the system. The pressure was therefore on the PAF to match this capability or accept that it would be totally outclassed in the air over its own territory for the first time. There had been speculation for sometime that Pakistan was interested in the Swedish Eyrie AEW&C system and an order was eventually signed for six platforms. More systems may find their way into Pakistani service either from America in the form of the P-3 AEW, (see above) or a Chinese system similar to the Eyrie equipped Saab. In any case the Eyrie AEW&C system was of great interest during IDEAS2006.
When it comes to a nation that is synonymous with partnership and Pakistan though, it has to be China, and Chinese military enterprise was a considerable presence at IDEAS2006. The relationship between Pakistan and its ‘all weather friend’ is extensive, and in the military field it covers all three services. The most prominent Sino-Chinese co-operation was of course the JF-17 Thunder, which seems to have captured the imagination of the public much like the F-86 Sabre and the F-16 Fighting Falcon have done so previously. This is despite the fact that the aircraft was at the time of the event yet to fly in Pakistani airspace, let alone wear PAF roundels and fight a war. Whether it was the CATIC stand, the PAC, or the PAF stand, there was always a throng of visitors wanting to know more about the latest exciting development in the PAF. The JF-17 promises to be a lightweight multi-role fighter that will replace the A-5, Mirage-III/V, and F-7 aircraft in the PAF inventory. It is also aimed at customers wanting to replace aircraft such as the F-5 Freedom Fighter, MiG-21 Fishbed and other such aircraft, or acquire an affordable (both in terms of initial cost and operation) fighter aircraft with modern capabilities for the first time. The fact that it is likely to be relatively sanction free platform from a reliable source, will no doubt interest a great many potential clients. The aircraft will be co-produced in China and Pakistan, so there will be plenty of scope for potential export orders to be met, as well as the PAF obtaining a ‘sanction proof’ frontline aircraft that can be fully supported by indigenous industry. The officials at PAC were quite open about their plans for the development of the aircraft, with an in-flight refuelling capability (perhaps even conformal fuel tanks), and other such improvements envisaged. The main task at present though is to get the aircraft flying in PAF colours and fully operational, and worry about these things once this has been accomplished. One cloud that seems to cast a shadow over the project is the engine. The Russian RD-93 (a derivative of the RD-33 that powers the MiG-29) is currently powering the prototypes, and is set to power the Chinese aircraft. It is unclear however, if this deal allows for the engines to be exported to third parties such as Pakistan, and Russian officials are on record in saying that an ‘end user certificate’ would have to be given (presumably for their approval) by the Chinese in the case of export orders. With Russia’s longstanding relationship with India there has been much pressure from New Delhi in making sure this does not happen. However, both PAF, and PAC officials, were absolutely confidant there would be no problems, and the JF-17 would fly in Pakistani colours as planned. If this means they will not be powered by the RD-93, then the only other option at present is the WS-13 engine being developed by the Chinese. The performance of this engine is stated to be superior in terms of reliability and power, to the RD-93, so there is a silver lining to this cloud. The only issue may be that the PAF may have to wait a short while longer for the JF-17 to enter operational service. A more tangible display of Sino-Pakistani aircraft collaboration was the K-8 Karakorum that was on display at the PAF outdoor display. The K-8 advanced/basic jet trainer that has sold very well overseas, particularly in Africa where the Egyptian Air Force is its biggest customer and is building the aircraft under license. Parts of the aircraft were built by PAC, but the decision was made early on not to opt for a Pakistani construction line, as it was thought that there was insufficient indigenous experience at the time to make this realistic, or even practical. Instead, it was decided that some parts for the aircraft would be made in Pakistan to help build up more experience in aircraft manufacture before taking on full assembly/production of an aircraft, a decision that has directly led to the JF-17 programme. In PAF service it is thought the K-8 will completely eventually replace the T-37 in the training role, where it is already more popular due to the tandem seating arrangement for pilot and instructor. This layout helps boost trainee confidence due to the isolation from the instructor. The K-8 is likely to remain in service for a considerable time yet.
Though it may not be so obviously stated the Al-Khalid also has its roots in a Chinese design, the Type-90II, but there has been considerable improvement of this type that took nearly a decade. In this time a number of prototypes were presented to the PA, including a 120mm model equipped with mainly Western systems, and one with fully Chinese systems. What was selected chose the best from what was available, including its powerful Ukrainian engine, which is the key factor in its excellent agility. This was apparent for all to see during the daily mobility display that showcased various PA vehicles, of both indigenous and foreign design. The Ukrainian connection did not end there as the Al-Khalid displayed at the HIT outdoor stand (billed as a ‘product improved Al-Khalid’) included the ‘Varta’ optronic countermeasures system. ‘Varta’ is capable of decoying ATGMs, and also countering laser designators and laser rangefinders by making them give false readings. The Al-Khalid is therefore fast, agile, and it also packs a punch with its 125mm smoothbore gun. The ‘hunter-killer’ capability it has is due to the commander’s independent thermal sight, and the Battle Management System (BMS). These allow the tank to track targets and also share information with other tanks in the formation. Such sharing of information would be a key asset in quickly getting to grips with and enemy and winning an encounter. The commander can identify targets and lay fire as he sees fit, with the capability to override commands made by the gunner. The gunner is also equipped with a high quality thermal sight, meaning the Al-Khalid is fully capable of night action, (in this respect the driver is equipped with a passive night sight). The Al-Khalid has been extensively promoted by its producer, Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT), and the first export order has been secured with Sri Lanka placing an order for a small number. The Al-Khalid’s ‘stable-mate’ from HIT, the Al-Zarrar (an upgrade of the Chinese Type-59), was also heavily promoted, and took part in both the static, and mobile displays. Though not as advanced as the Al-Khalid, it has a crucial part to play in PA service in maintaining numbers whilst the Al-Khalid provides the ‘mailed fist’ of the PA armoured strike arm. Suspension, transmission and the power-pack are all new, as is the armoured package that covers the frontal arc of the tank. The turret has been up-armoured with an additional layer of composite armour, and there has also been a layer of ERA placed over the turret and the frontal part of the hull. The 125mm necessitated the turret be raised to accommodate the additional bulk, but this is not so apparent due to the added armour. There is no auto-loader like the Al-Khalid, so the turret is rather cramped for three people, but the philosophy behind the Al-Zarrar was that it would provide a tank capable of surviving on the modern battlefield at an affordable price. The Al-Zarrar continues to enter PA service in large numbers where the Type-59 forms the backbone of the MBT fleet. The main target in terms of export attention has been Africa and Asia where the Type-59 and early T-series tanks are present in large numbers. The potential customers are unlikely to have the financial resources to purchase more modern types, so the outlook is favourable. The Al-Zarrar has already been ordered by Bangladesh as an upgrade for its Type-59 fleet. HIT’s products do not stop at tanks though as it also offers a range of vehicles based off the M-113 and indigenous Saad/Al-Talha tracked APCs. These were exhibited at the HIT static display, and put on an excellent show during the mobility display. A variant of the M-113 produced by HIT that is of particular note, despite no customer having yet come forward, is the Hamza IFV. Armed with an unmanned turret that packs a 25mm cannon and co-axial 7.62mm, the Hamza is definitely well armed, and being based on the basic M-113 chassis, it is tough and versatile. There is no requirement for such a vehicle in the PA, but it is readily available should any customer place an order, or even request a similar armament on the Saad or Talha APC. The Al-Talha and Saad are essentially the same but the Saad is slightly longer with an extra road wheel. The Saad has been linked with a possible sale to the Saudis, (along with the Al-Khalid), but the deal may not now take place. The Al-Talha has however been sold to Iraq along with another HIT product, the Mohafiz internal security vehicle. The Mohafiz is based on the Land Rover Defender but has a much altered aluminium body. It is in service with Pakistani security forces and has proved itself to be a valuable asset. The most interesting (and newest) HIT vehicle at IDEAS2006 though was the Discreet Armoured Vehicle (DAV) that is based on a normal Toyota saloon/sedan. It is the first time that such a vehicle has been made on so light a chassis, and it comes at a time when there is soaring requirement for such vehicles, for both government and private use. It is capable of withstanding fire from 7.62mm NATO ball ammunition, has an armoured undercarriage to protect against hand-grenade explosions, and can travel for a considerable distance on its ‘run-flat’ tyres. Externally the vehicle has no differences to an unmodified vehicle, and there is currently no comparable level of security on a vehicle of this size available. Other armoured vehicles on the market are based on larger, more expensive models such as Jaguars, Range Rovers, or the ubiquitous Mercedes. These are far from discreet though, and attract a great deal of attention, especially in less well developed countries. Therefore HIT has clearly identified a niche in the market, and the DAV is certain to be an export success. It was during IDEAS2006 that the Lebanese Minister of Industry, Pierre Amine Gemayel, was assassinated in Beirut after his car was ambushed by gun wielding assailants. Had he been in the DAV, he would clearly have survived.
The Military Vehicle Research Defence Establishment, (MVRDE), has a come a long way since it was founded in the aftermath of the 1971 Indo-Pakistan war where sanctions had an adverse effect on the defence capabilities of Pakistani forces. At IDEAS2006 it had a number of its very wide selection of products displayed at its static display, with some of these vehicles also taking part in the mobility display. These included its AVLB mounted on an M-47M Patton MBT chassis. The bridge is of aluminium construction and capable of spanning a 21.58m gap, and supporting weights of 60 tons; it also capable of being tandem launched with similar short/medium span bridges. MVRDE also displayed two of its anti-mine vehicles the ‘Troll Anti-Mine’ and the ‘Dragon Engineer Mine Plough’. Both are based on the chassis of the T-55 MBT, but whereas the Dragon rolls anti-tank mines out of the path of the tank and advancing forces, the Troll deliberately detonates them. The Dragon uses two sets of ploughs, the tines of which dig out buried mines and roll them away from the tank. A roller assembly is fitted to the rear to deal with anti-personnel mines in the ploughed area. The Troll’s clearing rollers can withstand up 12 anti-tank blasts and sweeps two 90cm lanes at up to 12kmh. The assembly is controlled by the driver, and the mechanism can be fitted or removed using the jib that is also fitted. MVRDE’s mine clearing devices have been a real success story, and the most notable foreign customer has been Kuwait, which is still dealing with a legacy of war and invasion. MVRDE also displayed one of its mobile workshops, tankers, an Al-Khalid simulator, semi-trailer, and Track Launch Assembly (TLA). The Class-60 hydraulic TLA allows for tracked or wheeled vehicles up to the weight of 60 tons to cross soft terrain. It is mounted on two 6-ton Yasoob 6x6 trucks, spans 45m, and can laid or retrieved in 7-10 minutes. The 60-Ton Semi-Trailer can carry any vehicle weighing up to 60 tons over metalled, dirt, and shingle tracks. The trailer provides uniform payload support for vehicles carried. MVRDE continues to work on a number projects for a wide variety of applications and is likely to have a number of new products on display at IDEAS2008.
One other area in which Pakistani industry has made significant advancements is in the manufacture of UAVs. There are a number of companies working the field but the four major companies are Albadeey Technologies, Advanced Computing & Engineering Solutions (ACES), Integrated Defence Systems (IDS), and Integrated Dynamics (ID). All have considerable experience, and between them have won a number of domestic and foreign contracts. Integrated Dynamics’ products are certainly not conventional in appearance, and it has perhaps been the most successful in terms of a high profile foreign sale, when its ‘Border Eagle Mk2’ was ordered by the American authorities for border patrol duties. It is a low altitude, border and perimeter monitoring UAV, with a top speed of 160km/h, 50km range, and an enhanceable endurance of 4 hours. The payload is relatively light at 5kg, but it is interchangeable, with various payloads capable of being carried. With technology rapidly shrinking UAV sensors, this will undoubtedly not hold the Border Eagle back. Three other ID products of note displayed at IDEAS2006 were the ‘Nighthawk’ High Altitude Long Endurance (HALE) UAV, the ‘Desert Hawk’ UAV, and the ‘Tornado’ UAV. The Nighthawk is a 100 mile range, 15hr endurance platform with a 125mph max speed. It can carry a 6kg payload in a combination of daylight/IR TV and still cameras that are activated as required. It is equipped with a UHF data-link. The Desert Hawk is a low altitude and perimeter monitoring UAV. It has a carbon-composite platform equipped with micro gyro-stabilised payloads in its payload bay. It has a 100mph max speed, 18.75 mile range, and an enhanceable 3hr endurance. The ‘Tornado’ on the other hand is not a surveillance UAV but rather an expendable drone designed to confuse the enemy into thinking it is a real attacking aircraft, and expend valuable SAMs in an effort to destroy it, (or at least turn on a dormant air defence radar so it can be attacked with SEAD aircraft). As the name would suggest it is a perfect replica of the one of the best strike aircraft currently available, the Panavia Tornado, which is in service with the RAF, German air force, Italian air force, and the RSAF. IDS on the other hand exhibited its ‘Huma-1’ tactical UAV. It is a composite UAV that performs a wide range of remote sensing tasks. Range is 500km, max speed 180km/h, endurance 5-6hrs, and it has a 100km operational radius. It carries a 20kg payload and includes a real-time video transmission system. ACES displayed its ‘Eagle-Eye-P1’ UAV and also exhibited the ground Control Station (GCS) from which it is controlled. The ‘Eagle Eye-P1’ tactical UAV has an 80km range, 3hr endurance, and 120km max speed. Tracking is GPS based, and it carries a 30kg payload of a 'pan, tilt & zoom' video camera for real time digital video surveillance. One of the most established Pakistani UAV companies, Albadeey Technologies, was also present. It has a vast amount of experience and has produced a number of high quality UAVs and target drones. The most eye-catching is undoubtedly the ‘ABJT Target Drone’. The ABJT is a high speed, jet powered, target drone. It is a medium range expendable target for air-to-air, AAA and SAM training. It is available in autopilot (5km), and BVR (20km) versions. Normal range is 2km. A less sophisticated target drone, the ‘Shahzore’, is also available. It is a medium range, propeller powered target drone for AAA and SAM training with an endurance of up to 90 minutes. It is available in autopilot (5km), and BVR (20km) versions. Normal range is 3km. The most basic Albadeey target drone is the ‘Ababeel’. It is used by PAF/PA and a number of other customers, and is a cheap, effective, and expendable solution for training personnel in ground based air defence. Its manoeuvrability allows it to simulate any attack profile. Albadeey also displayed two surveillance UAVs, the ‘Hud Hud II’ and ‘Hud Hud III’. The ‘Hud Hud III’ is an enlarged version of the ‘Hud Hud II’ with greater endurance (6hrs) and range (100km). It can carry a 40kg payload which is usually a high resolution CCD camera, GPS, and frequency modulated L Band video transmitter. The Pakistani UAV industry continues to improve and there a number of new exciting projects in the pipeline that will be targeted at the Pakistani armed forces, and increasingly, foreign customers, as the industry branches out to secure more overseas clients.
One of the most well patronised displays by far though was the ‘Army Strategic Forces Command’ (ASFC) display, where indigenous missile technology was present for all to see. The missiles were strictly not for sale but for display purposes only. A separate tent was made available for those who wished to meet the ASFC officers present. It can safely be said they were amongst the most open and welcoming of any of the personnel at IDEAS2006, whereas the nature of their work in being responsible for the operation of the nation’s nuclear deterrent, may have suggested this may not have been the case. The display was certainly impressive with nearly the full range of missiles on display. The missiles displayed consisted of: Shaheen-I/II, Ghauri, Babur, and Ghaznavi. All bar Babur are ballistic missiles with the Shaheen-I/II and Ghaznavi missiles being solid fuelled, and Ghauri liquid fuelled. Babur is a land-attack cruise missile closely resembling the American Tomahawk. It is the newest addition to the ASFC arsenal, and is a 500km range, 1500kg, weapon with a 300kg payload, and 10m CEP. It is currently land-based but like the Tomahawk there is no reason why it could not be modified to be fired from a submarine if the requirement arises. An air-launched version is also a possibility, but merely being possible does not mean it is likely to happen. A requirement has to exist first for this to take place and currently Pakistan is content with what it regards as its ‘minimum deterrent’ of land based strategic missiles. All in all ASFC showed they were approachable and helpful, but at the same time displayed the exceptionally high level of dedication and professionalism as would be expected from them.
When the decision was made to produce military equipment indigenously, Pakistan produced little more than small-arms and ammunition. This has expanded considerably and now Pakistan produces increasingly sophisticated weaponry and equipment. However, despite the growing sophistication Pakistani industry has maintained what it is known for, quality at an affordable price. The main standard bearer for weaponry and ammunition of varying calibres is Pakistan Ordinance Factories (POF). Everything from small-arms to artillery ammunition is produced by the company, and it continues to make great strides in producing for Pakistani armed forces and increasingly, for export. The small arms are aimed primarily at the African and Asian markets where there is not really the requirement for the latest technology, only that what is on offer is affordable and reliable. This is the reason weapons like the RPG-7 and 106mm recoilless rifle are still produced and exported. During IDEAS2006 agreements were signed with French and South Korean companies for 155mm artillery ammunition. This calibre is the global standard for heavy artillery and POF will no doubt make great efforts to secure export customers after having established itself as a supplier of high quality and reliable products. POF also produces tank ammunition in varying calibres from 100mm to 125mm. The POF 125mm APFSDS-T is naturally offered for export with the Al-Khalid and Al-Zarrar, ensuring there is as much reliability as is possible in the supply of materials for a potential customer.
This reliability of supply can be extended to include a great deal of other systems for the tanks including the night vision systems and laser range finders thanks largely due to ATCOP. The Al-Zarrar gunner’s night sight is produced by the company and as is a laser range finder for T-series tanks. The night sight in particular is of particular interest for customers as the capability to fight at night is crucial on a modern battlefield. Night vision equipment for personal soldiers is produced by the Institute of Optronics, which produces a number of night vision devices from a monocular to weapon-based sights, and NVG goggles for pilots. These devices are in increasingly wide spread use in the Pakistani armed forces, and have been used extensively along the border with Afghanistan as the security forces tackle the Al-Qaeda and Taliban menace. Pakistani industry is also branching out into new areas such as air deliverable weapons such as the Durandal anti-runway bomb, Combined Effects Munition (CEM), and the Mk-15 Retarder Tail Unit (RTU) for Mk-82 bombs. The first two items are produced by Nescom and offer potential customers devastating weapons that have till recently only been available from more developed nations. The Durandal can be used against any hardened target such a runway or bunker and works by detonating after the warhead has burrowed into the target, thereby increasing the level of devastation. The CEM is a general purpose weapon that is packed with 247 bomblets for use against troops and armour. The Mk-15 RTU allows for Mk-82 bombs to be released during a high speed low-level pass by retarding the fall of the bomb, and allowing the attacking aircraft to safely depart the scene prior to detonation. In this respect it works in a similar fashion to the Durandal, though this weapon is first parachute retarded, and then boosted by a rocket motor into the target surface. Clearly these are just the beginnings for Pakistani industry’s venture into more sophisticated weaponry and there is a clear line that can be drawn from retarding simple dumb bombs and unguided munitions, to something more substantial. The next stage will undoubtedly be PGM, and with experience that has been gained with such systems as the Babur LACM, these developments may be apparent by as early as IDEAS2008.
One area of Pakistani military industry that has been overlooked until recently has been the maritime sphere. However, there has been a great deal of progress made with indigenous Pakistani products that have a naval application. Karachi based Marine Systems Limited (MSL) has manufactured a number of products including a training simulator capable of simulating any sensor system, on any naval platform, under any climatic and sea state conditions. This will increase the amount of training done on land, easing the burden on operational assets considerably. MSL also produces a number of display units that can be used in various applications on board naval platforms, which was the one of the steps it took before producing its training simulator. The main MSL breakthrough though has been its Towed Array Sonar (TAS) for submarines. Systems already in service with the PN were found to be too bulky, heavy and based on old technology. MSL’s TAS is not only lighter and more compact, but was found to have a performance superior to designs currently available to the PN. The system will be installed on current PN submarines (where on the Agosta-90B it will be integrated with the SUBTICS combat management system), and also the winner of the submarine contract. The system is being offered for export to friendly countries, in particular those in the Gulf States. Also present at IDEAS2006 was Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW). It is Pakistan’s major shipbuilder and has built a number of warships for the PN. These have included the Shujaat FAC, replenishment ships, and also the Agosta-90B class SSK. The next big projects for the shipyard will be the new SSK for the PN and also the F-22P. The pattern the shipyard has been following is to have slowly built up key experience in building various types of warships in terms of size and complexity, and will move to the next stage with the F-22P as it will obtain some experience in major warship design as well as construction. Only the final ship of the batch of four will be built by KSEW, but the hope is that the experience will be put to good use in building the PN corvette fleet when a decision is made, and also a proposed follow-on class from the F-22P. The ultimate aim is for the shipyard to be a designer and exporter of such vessels, and the experience gained is slowly leading in that direction.
Not all the companies present were concerned with the manufacture of weapons though as some, such as Australian company Aerostructures Technologies deal with ensuring the structural integrity of aircraft. This is an increasingly important service as aircraft remain in service longer, and therefore the fatigue experienced by the airframe is greater. The company has helped the PAF maintain its fleet of FT-5 training aircraft, but also works on many other airframe types (it has worked on the RAAF Orion and F-111 aircraft) from fast jets to helicopters. For helicopters and MPA in particular the maritime environment has a harsh effect on aircraft, so ensuring structural integrity of MPA and helicopters is big business. The representatives from the company seemed to have been in great demand, and were kept busy talking to a number of visitors representing foreign governments.
It is clear therefore that IDEAS2006 was one of Asia’s major defence exhibitions, and with current trends it is likely to expand yet further over the coming years. As an opportunity for Pakistani companies to display their products and the advances they have made, it is an invaluable event. Past exhibitions have helped to raise the profile of local industry and win orders from foreign customers. IDEAS has also proved itself to be an unrivalled networking event for industry and government officials from around the world. When it comes to defence exhibitions and the wider defence industry, Pakistan has shown it knows how to handle things.

New Equipment that was showcased at Idea's 2006!:banana:

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/ideas2006/images/IMGP0454.JPG
MSL Trainer

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/ideas2006/images/IMGP0535.JPG
Saad APC

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/ideas2006/images/IMGP0600.JPG
Al-Zarrar

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/ideas2006/images/IMGP0638.JPG
Al-Khalid

Can't you just post the part about Pakistan in post 85? :nuts:

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/ideas2006/images/IMGP0795.JPG

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/ideas2006/images/IMGP0801.JPG

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/ideas2006/images/IMGP0836.JPG

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/ideas2006/images/IMGP0841.JPG

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/ideas2006/images/IMGP0926.JPG

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/ideas2006/images/IMGP0932.JPG

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/ideas2006/images/IMGP1102.JPG


Pakistani UAV'S

Can't you just post the part about Pakistan in post 85? :nuts:
You need to be educated in these matters so stop being lazy and start reading.

Yes you you MQM supporter!!! :bash: :banana: :lol:

And oooga / UP / other ids :tongue3:

Wow! So I support MQM now? I believe that a person who is not even capable of understanding the english language would be able to determine my utter and absolute contempt (putting it mildly) for MQM after a mere glimpse of my posts on this forum! Yes, it is THAT obvious!

Furthermore, you are now alleging that UP and I are the same people?

I do believe you have lost your mind. :ohno:

jiCqyg5SoQE

Wow! So I support MQM now? I believe that a person who is not even capable of understanding the english language would be able to determine my utter and absolute contempt (putting it mildly) for MQM after a mere glimpse of my posts on this forum! Yes, it is THAT obvious!

Furthermore, you are now alleging that UP and I are the same people?

I do believe you have lost your mind. :ohno:
I do not know how I got labelled as a MQM supporter but it just shows the level of his sanity.:lol:

These UAVs look crap! Got any figures/tech details?

yJctf6if3oA

These UAVs look crap! Got any figures/tech details?

Well the AK-47 is not much of a looker either but we all know what it is capable of. :|











now go back to watching that pr0n

These UAVs look crap! Got any figures/tech details?
The Pakistani UAV development program is still young and these are all made by private companies. And no they do not look like crap and the look of the UAV does not really have to do with its performance. I am actually quite disappointed you would make such an assessment without the correct technical details. If you want the details go to Integrated Defense’s site as well as the other makers of these UAV's.

Well the AK-47 is not much of a looker either but we all know what it is capable of. :|











now go back to watching that pr0n
I was just watching a documentary on that a few minutes ago!:lol:

I was just watching a documentary on that a few minutes ago!:lol:

Riiiiight.

Wow! So I support MQM now? I believe that a person who is not even capable of understanding the english language would be able to determine my utter and absolute contempt (putting it mildly) for MQM after a mere glimpse of my posts on this forum! Yes, it is THAT obvious!

Furthermore, you are now alleging that UP and I are the same people?

I do believe you have lost your mind. :ohno:

No no it ish naught my folt.. :(

It is all the "intellectual discussion" that is going on here..


Ok I will move to the persian girls thread :fiddle:

The Pakistani UAV development program is still young and these are all made by private companies. And no they do not look like crap and the look of the UAV does not really have to do with its performance. I am actually quite disappointed you would make such an assessment without the correct technical details. If you want the details go to Integrated Defense’s site as well as the other makers of these UAV's.
I just said they looked crap, not that they performed crap. Two entirely different things. And that's exactly why I asked for the tech details so that I get to know about their capabilities. And you were watching a documentary on pr0n?

Please give me the link to their details. And isn't Integrated Defense Boeing's? Or is it that they are making the UAVs for Pakistan.

I just said they looked crap, not that they performed crap. Two entirely different things. And that's exactly why I asked for the tech details so that I get to know about their capabilities. And you were watching a documentary on pr0n?

Please give me the link to their details. And isn't Integrated Defense Boeing's? Or is it that they are making the UAVs for Pakistan.
No IDS is a 100% private Pakistani defence company!:) They are also many other companies that have started operations but this is a sector that we can really perform well in after a few more years!

As for the details these are all new UAV's so it will be difficult to find the figures but in some of the pictures you can find the required information.

Pakistan sold beagle UAV's to the US a while back to monitor the Mexican border.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/pakistan/kamra.htm

Its rough and tough military hardware, we should gudge it by its performance not by finishing.

UP thanks for the information.....Great posts.

^^ No it also means they have more missiles and means like money and engineers which comes back to education.

Do you believe that if we take the nukes aside, Pakistan military could fight Iran in balochistan?

Pakistan and iran are getting closer we dont have to fight.

I feel very bad when people underestimates pakistan's defence capability......
I think our JAWANS has great jazba , even with out wapons our jawans can win the war.
if u just take the nukes aside, pakistan has more suphisticated weapons then its neighbors, no one can match the capability of Alkhalid tanks, submarrines, cruise missles, advance target tracking systems and missels launchers and the accuracy of automatic machine guns. if u just read the UP's post carefully u will know technically how advance we are in military hardware.

Not to mention Pakistan hides most of her weapons that the government funds. Remember the Babur cruise missile? It practically popped out of the ass of Shaukat Sultan out of nowhere!

No IDS is a 100% private Pakistani defence company!:) They are also many other companies that have started operations but this is a sector that we can really perform well in after a few more years!

As for the details these are all new UAV's so it will be difficult to find the figures but in some of the pictures you can find the required information.

Pakistan sold beagle UAV's to the US a while back to monitor the Mexican border.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/pakistan/kamra.htm
This is all I could find:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Integrated_Defense_Systems
http://www.raytheon.com/businesses/rids/about/index.html

This is all I could find:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Integrated_Defense_Systems
http://www.raytheon.com/businesses/rids/about/index.html
Try Integrated Defense Systems...

I can get you a pass to the IDEA's 2007 show but you would be representing UPK. ISPR will also be conducting a background check on you as well so let me know now if there is something that might...hmm....:lol:

Try Integrated Defense Systems...

I can get you a pass to the IDEA's 2007 show but you would be representing UPK. ISPR will also be conducting a background check on you as well so let me know now if there is something that might...hmm....:lol:
Yeah man! Get me a pass!

I think our JAWANS has great jazba , even with out wapons our jawans can win the war.

^^ I see you are falling in the same trap that the whole muslim ummah is in.
They think they are great just because they were great in the past. Saladin or ghaznavi's achievements have nothing to do with today's muslims.

It was because of that mentality that Arabs lost the 67 war! And seriously, if what you say was true then pakistan should've comprehensively routed india in 48, 65, 71, 99 etc instead of a comprehensive defeat and rest all "stalemates". :ohno: :ohno:


And don't any one of you dare come calling me an "indian" .. *argh* :rant: :D

^^ I see you are falling in the same trap that the whole muslim ummah is in.
They think they are great just because they were great in the past. Saladin or ghaznavi's achievements have nothing to do with today's muslims.

It was because of that mentality that Arabs lost the 67 war! And seriously, if what you say was true then pakistan should've comprehensively routed india in 48, 65, 71, 99 etc instead of a comprehensive defeat and rest all "stalemates". :ohno: :ohno:


And don't any one of you dare come calling me an "indian" .. *argh* :rant: :D

I fully agree with you! :yes:











you indian :D

^^ Yea you cot mee.. me indian..
name vivikanand bhalasubhramaniyan..

:shifty:

^^ Yes.. me indian..

Jeay altaf hussain! :D

You friggin idiot! The way its written is "G.A Altaf Hussain"!

And its "Hindu, Muslim, Bhai Bahi"

You friggin idiot! The way its written is "G.A Altaf Hussain"!

And its "Hindu, Muslim, Bhai Bahi"

Wot aar u talkin about?

Thank You Come again.. :banana:

Wot aar u talkin about?

Thank You Come again.. :banana:

Stop editing your posts!

Personal question, whats your first name? If your not comfortable with telling me than give me the first alphabet in your name. Please?

^^ I see you are falling in the same trap that the whole muslim ummah is in.
They think they are great just because they were great in the past. Saladin or ghaznavi's achievements have nothing to do with today's muslims.

It was because of that mentality that Arabs lost the 67 war! And seriously, if what you say was true then pakistan should've comprehensively routed india in 48, 65, 71, 99 etc instead of a comprehensive defeat and rest all "stalemates". :ohno: :ohno:


And don't any one of you dare come calling me an "indian" .. *argh* :rant: :D
Nothing but anti military rhetoric without any knowledge of military affairs. I love how you said the Iranian's had more missiles for their cobras!:lol:

We locally manufacture our own version of the TOW:lol:

I love how you said the Iranian's had more missiles for their cobras!

I wonder how you turned my discussion of Iran firing ballistic missiles to missile fitted on Cobras? :hammer:

:runaway:

I wonder how you turned my discussion of Iran firing ballistic missiles to missile fitted on Cobras? :hammer:

:runaway:
That’s because we were discussing the Cobra's throughout the entire conversation.

Either way you are so horribly wrong it makes my mind blow. There was a recent report by a think tank on how Pakistan’s missile production is on overdrive and how we were performing very well in this field. Perhaps, instead of putting through the sensationalistic ignorant crap you should stop by PakDef.info and educate yourself extensively in the matters of defense.
GEO-TV



CAPITAL TALK SPECIAL
05-03-2004


Dr. SAMAR MUBARAKMAND N.I, H.I, S.I.
Chairman NESCOM



Hamid Mir is here with Capital Talk Special. Today we will have a talk with a personality who is associated with Pakistan’s nuclear program for the last 42 years, yes 42 years. Surely you must be thinking that Pakistan’s nuclear program had begun 30 years ago during the era of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, so who is this personality who is associated for the past 42 years with Pakistan’s nuclear program. So today you will be able to meet this personality and let me tell you that this is his first formal interview, and he is the same person who has been busy with the recent successful tests of Pakistan’s Shaheen and Ghaznavi series of missiles. So let me introduce you to Dr. Samar Mubarakmand, who is the chairman of National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM) and he is associated with Pakistan’s nuclear program for the past 42 years.

Hamid Mir: Dr. Sahib first of all please tell us when did our nuclear program begin?
Samar: In 1962 when I was first associated with this program, the first phase of this program was underway, at that time the development of manpower and human resource required for this program was initiated. A large number of people were sent abroad by the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission for higher studies and to acquire PhDs, and they were sent to the world’s best universities and I also went to Oxford for my PhD during that time. So during the 1970s and 80s, manpower was further expanded and developed and trained. Along with this, in the 60s the Pakistan Institute of Nuclear Science and Technology, also known as PINSTECH was set up where a research reactor was established. At that time Pakistan consisted of two parts, East and West Pakistan, and at that time a research reactor and an atomic accelerator was also set up at Dhaka, and many scientists were also trained there. So basically some facilities for research were set up in the country and people were sent abroad for higher studies. So when India conducted its atomic test in 1974, at that time our Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto sahib had already resolved that Pakistan would also run its own atomic program and nuclear weapons program, so when India conducted its test in 1974, this resolve transformed into practical reality.

Hamid Mir: So we can say that research had begun in the 60s….
Samar: Yes research had begun in the 60s.

Hamid Mir: And this practical work on this research began in the 1970s?
Samar: Yes in the 1970s that research transformed into an atomic program.

Hamid Mir: You joined this research in 1962?
Samar: Yes I joined the PAEC and began to be associated with this research.

Hamid Mir: Dr. Sahib please tell us that the former chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission of Pakistan, late Munir Ahmed Khan sahib once told us that our first cold test was conducted in 1983, will you please tell us something regarding this?
Samar: Yes, when our program began in 1974, first of all we had to develop an infrastructure, which included a very big design team of nuclear physicists which by the Grace of Allah still exists and is very competent and if required can deliver a new atomic bomb design to the country every three to four months, as per our requirements. Then facilities were also created for manufacturing, because when a bomb is being designed and made, facilities for explosives are needed, ultra-high precision facilities of mechanical engineering are required, then electronics have to be fully mastered, then once a weapon has been developed, then a totally different technology has to be mastered to test that weapon because testing is such an event that once you press a button, the bomb is detonated and the entire test is over in a few micro-seconds. So you should have such a capability of testing that in those one or two microseconds, the yield of the bomb is measured accurately and the performance of the bomb is properly gauged and understood. So all this was done and by 1983 the first bomb was also developed, which was ready for a cold test. Then you need some tunnels in the mountains for conducting a test, which should be in a strong rock wherein the tunnels should be constructed so that during a test no radiation or damage is leaked outside the mountain. This infrastructure also took 5-6 years to develop, and work on it continued from 1977 to 1982-83. When we were ready for a cold test, the government gave us permission to conduct it, and it was the month of March, during which the first cold test was conducted and believe me, it was conducted very discreetly. We drove big trucks without drivers for many hundreds of kilometers ourselves and our scientists acquired heavy driving licenses for this purpose and then conducted the cold test.

Hamid Mir: Where was the cold test conducted?
Samar: I cannot tell you the site where the cold test was conducted…

Hamid Mir: So the cold test was conducted under your supervision?
Samar: Yes it was conducted under my supervision because I was the leader of the test team at that time. So when the test took place, Allah Almighty gave us success and believe me the joy that we had for the cold test at that time was so much that we realized that today we have become a nuclear power, but we could not express it because we were told to keep it secret.

Hamid Mir: You just said that our scientists are so competent that they can develop a new bomb design every three to four months but some people in the international media say that Pakistan’s nuclear program is not indigenous and is dependent on bits and pieces (components and equipment) taken from here and there.
Samar: Look, components and equipment are available throughout the world and their utility is dual use, you can also use them for peaceful applications, like electronic components that can either be used in a radio or can be used in an atomic bomb, there is steel, which can either be used in a bridge or can be used in an atomic bomb also, so this is no argument, dual use items are available of every kind and from every where, which if you need you can acquire. Now you know that the Internet is available, if you go on the Internet, you can get crude designs of a bomb also. But if designs are also available in the world and if materials are also available in the black market, then 30-40 countries in the world should have been able to develop atom bombs by now. What is the thing that is an obstacle for a country to develop this capability of a bomb? What we are able to gather from our 40-42 year experience is that we have had almost two generations who have been associated with this program. First we trained the manpower, then we began work on the bomb, then we conducted the first cold test, then there was a design in the cold test which we knew would certainly work but where and how would we use it, because it was such a large size which could not be fitted on to a missile or an aircraft. So after 1983 till 1998, we developed 5-6 more designs, conducted their cold tests and not one but more than one cold tests, and we confirmed that they were the right designs, and we developed them in large quantities and kept them with us, and when we had a chance, we tested all these designs, and all of them were successful, all six of them. Now after passing through this experience, and after working in this program for so many years, and I mentioned the Internet to you also, and I also talked about materials, after saying all this I think no one should have any doubt in his mind that after acquiring four components from the black market, and after getting a design from the internet, it is not an easy task that any one can do. So anyone cannot do it, because if anyone could do it so easily, then many countries would have done it by now.

Hamid Mir: From 14-15 years, Libya and Iran have been buying components and materials from the black market, but they could not develop anything?
Samar: This is proof of the fact that they tried very hard to acquire materials from the black market to develop a program but the bottom line is that until and unless there is a human resource available in a country which understands this work to such an extent that it is able to develop and raise this program from zero to 100% all by itself, till then this work cannot be accomplished.

Hamid Mir: There is another important thing, please tell us about it, on 28th May 1998, who carried out the nuclear tests?
Samar: I was leading that team. I was working for the Atomic Energy Commission at that time. And I have worked in the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission from 1962 to 2001. And because atom bombs were developed in PAEC, the entire testing capabilities were there, all the tunnels were developed by the Atomic Energy Commission, site was theirs, I was leading the team that was looking after this program in the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission from every angle, so it was natural for Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif to have given this responsibility to me. And I went to Chaghi with 140 scientists, engineers and technicians and there we conducted these tests.

Hamid Mir: But we had heard that Dr. Qadeer sahib was also present at Chaghi?
Samar: Look, we cannot carry out an atomic test at the spur of the moment, without preparation. I visited Chaghi for the first time in 1981. We installed the instruments in the tunnels, prepared the tunnels according to our requirements, we built atomic bombs during this time also, conducted their cold tests, and when we were asked to carry out these tests, we were given only six days notice. This work cannot be done in six days alone. This was successful in six days only because we were working on and were associated with this program, with the test site, with testing procedures for 20-25 years and we have developed all these processes and procedures ourselves. So technically we had complete mastery over all this work. When these tests were conducted, our team went there on 20th May, and on 28th May, in the early morning, the tunnels were plugged and the preparation for the test was complete and on 28th May, around 3.pm was the time selected for testing. So at that time, at about 2.45 pm, some of our guests arrived to witness the tests, and Dr. Qadeer Khan sahib was also one of them.

Hamid Mir: He (Qadeer) came to see the tests?
Samar: Yes he came there to see the tests and it was the first visit of his life to Chaghi. And he came there at the invitation of the chairman of the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission, and he arrived 15 minutes prior to the explosions. At that time we were present at a remote site 15-20 kms away from the test site from where we had to conduct the tests. So he came there and joined us in the Dua and then we conducted the test in his presence and we showed him the test and other guests also saw the test.

Hamid Mir: Now the general impression in the world is that tests were only carried out on 28th May, was there any test on 30th May as well?
Samar: We carried out five tests on 28th May, and we conducted another test on 30th May. We have another test site, which is approximately 150 kms away from Chaghi, which is in a desert, and this was an underground test. The Chaghi tests were carried out in tunnels inside a mountain. So the test on May 30 was of immense importance for us because we tested the last and latest design of the atom bomb that we had developed, and we had already carried out its cold test, so we had to test the design of this test on May 30. And this bomb is very small in size and is very efficient and powerful in yield and this bomb is fitted on to many of our delivery systems such as missiles and aircraft. So it was very important for us that this test should be successful and Allah Almighty gave us a lot of success in it.

Hamid Mir: So in May 1998, not five but six atomic tests were conducted?
Samar: Yes six tests were conducted.

Hamid Mir: Dr. Sahib we are listening to the story of Pakistan’s nuclear program and nuclear tests from you and surely a common Pakistani is very happy to know that Pakistan has now become nuclear power, but some people say that Pakistan’s nuclear program has been rolled back?
Samar: Look; if a program has to be rolled back, you should keep an eye on three to four things. First of all the manpower, the human resource and the people who are working on the program, if the government wishes to roll back the program, the first thing it will do will be to break that team. There is a perception in our country, may be it is because we live in South Asia where there is the concept of idol worship, we tend to associate one particular individual with every work, we consider him to be our hero, and people think that this program is going on only because of this one individual, and there is a major flaw in this thinking, that if for some reason you remove that hero from the scene, so common people will think that the program has ended. So the perception of roll back will automatically emerge if you associate the success of the whole program with this one individual. Today I want to tell you in very clear terms that in the nuclear program, in developing a nuclear weapon, there are 15-20 technologies involved, which include uranium exploration, mining of uranium, refining of uranium, you have to dig out uranium from the earth, then convert it into gas, then its enrichment, then it has to be converted into metal, then it has to be machined, then explosives have to be developed and machined and given the shape of an atomic bomb. Then there are many other things which are used in the making of a bomb and which are developed, and I don’t want to go into their details now, then designs have to be developed in which a team of nuclear scientists and physicists is involved, then there has to be a test team so that when a bomb has been made, it is tested, and I have told you that in a test you have to obtain the complete data in one micro-second on how the bomb has performed, then tunnels have to be constructed which is the job of geo scientists, then if you have to convert this bomb into a deliverable weapon, because otherwise it is only a device which you can put on the ground and detonate it by joining afew wires, but if you have to deliver it by an aircraft or a missile, it involves many other requirements such as radars, electronics, computers, and when all these systems and technologies are integrated, only then a deliverable weapon is developed. Now in these 15-20 technologies, in each one of these technologies we have a scientist of international repute, international eminence and international level who is leading that particular team, who has 600 to 1000 men working under him who are middle-level, lower-level and technician-level people. In the same way you can take the case of missiles. In missiles, there are more technologies involved that an atomic bomb and if I go into their details, it will take a lot of time, and there also there are 15-20 people of this level, who pertain to guidance, controls, aerodynamics, of designing and developing rocket motors.

Hamid Mir: so you are saying that all these people are working in their respective fields?
Samar: Yes, all these 30-40 people of top international level are with us and our team is intact and they are working in their respective fields.

Hamid Mir: So Dr. Sahib you were saying that all people are working in their fields and the program has not been rolled back?
Samar: Yes absolutely, and the second thing that needs to be seen is that if the government wished to roll back the program, it can cut our budget. I assure you that each year we get our budget as per our requirements and it is never cut and even now our budget is the same as it used to be in the past many years and the government is also very serious to take this program forward. So in this respect I assure you that the budget we require is provided to us, we spend it with a lot of responsibility, there are many checks and balances over us, our audit is conducted regularly, and our scientists work with a lot of honesty. Then the third thing that has to be seen is that you keep getting technical targets and the government continues to give us technical targets about what we have to do. So if you are given money and you also have the human resource but you don’t have work to do, even then the program can be rolled back. Yyou should note that first we built the Ghaznavi, then we tested it, then we developed Shaheen-I, version 1, and tested it in 1999, then we developed Shaheen-I, version 2 , which had a greater range than the previous one, and then in October 2002, we conducted its two tests, then in October 2003, we conducted two tests of Shaheen-I, version 2, before that in May 2002 we conducted tests of Ghauri and Abdali. Last year we delivered the missiles and mobile launchers of Shaheen missiles to Pakistan Army and we equipped one complete regiment/battery with these missiles. Now we have again equipped the Army with a battery of Ghaznavi missiles along with launchers, so what does this mean? it means that new missiles are being developed, their new versions are being developed, when we first fired Shaheen-I, its accuracy was different, and now its accuracy is less than 90 meters, Ghaznavi’s accuracy is 58 meters.

Hamid Mir: Will you please tell us what is 58 meters and 90 meters accuracy?
Samar: Now Shaheen’s full range is 700 kms, in the last test, we placed a flag in the ground after completing 700 kms, there neutral observers were stationed and were asked to tell us themselves where the missile falls and we fired the missile from 700 kms away and the missile hit the ground within 90 meters of the target.

Hamid Mir: Now some of our very responsible column writers, on the basis of foreign media reports, are writing that Pakistan’s missile program has been rolled back and some American codes have been installed on those missiles which are known only to the Americans and not to us and whenever we would need to fire the missile, we will have to ask the codes from America and only then the missile would be launched?
Samar: Look, if we can develop a complicated thing like a missile or a difficult thing like a nuclear weapon, then we know full well how to safeguard them also. We don’t need to get these codes from anywhere. We have a National Command Authority, which has a Command and Control Wing, which controls all our nuclear weapons and missiles. We have adopted the world’s most advanced command and control system. And it is a very important part of that system that secret codes must be installed in all our weapons. When a weapon needs to be used, the person who is using it is given the code a few moments prior to the weapon’s use, and when he feeds that code via the computer, then that weapon is armed and the weapon can only be used in this way. So we have developed these codes ourselves and when these codes are installed at the time of the manufacture of these weapons and they cannot be installed on them later on. Our Command Authority knows what are these codes and these are very secure.

Hamid Mir: You have told us a very important point that these codes cannot be fitted into these weapons after they have been manufactured?
Samar: Yes these codes are fitted at the time of manufacture and it is not possible for anyone to take these weapons somewhere and then use them or detonate them and these weapons cannot be used by anyone who wishes to use them. Their safety is of immense significance and we take great care of this at the time of their manufacture.

Hamid Mir: You said that you also know how to protect these weapons. There is a famous journalist Seymour Hersh who has also written many books, his research articles are published in New Yorker magazine, a few days back he was in Pakistan, here he said that Pakistan’s atomic assets are very unsafe and if religious extremists rebel against the government and declare war or topple the government, they can take these atomic weapons and missiles somewhere else, can this happen?
Samar: No this is impossible, it is just like creating a popular story, it does not happen like this, it is a very serious matter, I will put a nuclear weapon on the road, you can keep it there for 10 months and I guarantee you that no one can use it or detonate it or cause any destruction from it. These weapons cannot be used like this.

Hamid Mir: How is it possible Dr. Sahib, if you put such a weapon on the road and I will give a truck to a suicide bomber who will hit the weapon on the road.
Samar: No, he will only break the nuclear weapon by hitting it but it will not detonate. If an atomic bomb which is fitted onto a missile or an aircraft and if that missile or aircraft is launched and crashes inside your own country, that weapon will not work, the weapon will fall and break but will not detonate. There is a mechanism and procedure for its detonation, first you give it a code, if you throw a weapon on the ground, it will break but a nuclear explosion will not take place, the explosive inside it will explode, but the nuclear reaction that has to take place will not be triggered. It will be just like detonating 100 kg of explosives.

Hamid Mir: So when Mr. Seymour Hersh who is a senior American journalist writes such things, he does not have information or writes only for propaganda?
Samar: I think his designs are only for propaganda and as I said his aims would be to publish a popular story, as there is no science in what he is saying. Weapons don’t work like this.

Hamid Mir: Now if we talk of missiles, you have told us something about Ghaznavi, what is Shaheen, you have now fired Shaheen-II also?
Samar: Shaheen-II is the front line missile of the entire family of missiles being made Pakistan, starting from Hatf-I to Abdali, to Ghaznavi to Shaheen-I version I and Shaheen-I version II to this Shaheen-II. Shaheen-II is a solid fuelled missile, it is a very big missile and weighs 25 tons and consists of two-stages. It has a rocket motor which activates when the missile lifts off which takes the missile to a height of 25 kms after which the rocket motor of second stage is activated and the first stage rocket motor separates at this stage. Then the second stage motor takes the missile to a height of 130 kms and after this its re-entry vehicle which includes the warhead and terminal guidance and control system, this is known as re-entry vehicle, this is then separated from the second stage motor which then takes it forward and after making very accurate corrections takes the missile to a height of 600 kms in orbit after which the missile is brought down and it enters the atmosphere and hits the target.

Hamid Mir: first it goes 600 kms up in the atmosphere, then what is its range ahead of that?
Samar: Its range is 2500 kms and we have fired it to the last boundary of Pakistan’s territorial waters, which is about 2000 kms, and we had selected a target of 1800 kms for it. Its total range is 2500 kms.

Hamid Mir: What is the basic difference between Shaheen-I and Shaheen-II?
Samar: The range of Shaheen-I is 700 kms, its diameter is 1 meter, its length is 11 meters, Shaheen-II’s range is 2500 kms, its diameter is 1.4 meters, its length is 17.5 meters and it weighs 25 tons.

Hamid Mir: A while ago you were telling us that you conducted the first test of Shaheen-I in 1999, then in 2002, then in October 2003, why did you conduct tests of Shaheen-I again and again?
Samar: When missiles are produced, and by the Grace of Allah these missiles are now in mass production, we are also giving them to the Army and there is a qualification procedure for missiles. One batch is manufactured and one missile is fired and tested from that batch. So if that missile performs accurately as per its specifications, then it is said that the whole batch has qualified.

Hamid Mir: Now Dr. Sahib lets talk something about proliferation. I have this four year old advertisement which was published in Pakistan’s English newspapers and at that time you were in the Atomic Energy Commission. The advertisement is from the Ministry of Commerce but there is also mention of the Atomic Energy Commission in it and this advertisement which contains a list and enriched uranium is also included in that list and it says that Pakistan is willing to export a lot of nuclear materials along with enriched uranium and other equipment and materials. At that time you were in the Atomic Energy Commission and on the basis of this advertisement the leader of opposition Benazir Bhutto in many western countries is claiming that during the era of General Pervez Musharraf proliferation started. So would you like to give a response to this?
Samar: I do wish to clarify this issue. This advertisement is an advertisement of an application form which was given in the newspaper by the Ministry of Commerce. If you look at this application form, all the countries in the world who manufacture nuclear materials or such dual use items which can be used in nuclear programs and have peaceful uses also, all such countries in order to prevent such materials and equipment from falling into wrong hands via export, this form is also available in all those countries.If any person wants to sell any such material or component outside his country, and if someone from a foreign country wants to purchase any such material or component from him, first such a person has to fill this application form, and take permission from the respective ministry of commerce for export. And the ministry of commerce asks the buyer where he intends to use that material or component and asks an end use certificate from that buyer. The ministry then decides on the basis of the end use certificate whether the material or component should be exported to that buyer or not. And if the ministry of commerce grants an export license, only then that material or component can be exported. Pakistan in order to bring its export control culture to the level of advanced countries of the world who are nuclear powers has adopted this application form, which is an international form, and asked the ministry of commerce to advertise it so that if someone wants to sell any dual use item or material outside this country, so first he fills this form and takes permission from the government. It is not that we are always ready to sell these materials, this form is an advertisement of a list of materials that if someone wishes to buy any items from this list of material mentioned in the advertisement, he will have to first fill this form and take permission from the government.

Hamid Mir: Can Pakistan sell enriched uranium to any country or organization or person after filling this form?
Samar: Look, it depends on how much enriched uranium someone wants to buy from you. Someone can buy one milligram from you also, it has medical applications, you know that all the treatment in cancer hospitals is through nuclear materials that emit radiations. These radiations are used in cancer treatment. Similarly, a lot of research work is done in universities by students and they use these materials in very small quantities, not even one gram, but they study the properties of materials by taking a thousandth part of a gram of such materials and also study the energy of the radiations from these materials. When we were students at Oxford, we had worked with these materials.

Hamid Mir: So they are used for research purposes?
Samar: Yes for research and if someone has to buy this material for research in such small quantities, the export control regime is applied there also and the application form will have to be filled in and permission from the government taken before any such material is exported.

Hamid Mir: Dr. Sahib, we are talking about proliferation. There are many reports in foreign newspapers that some people after making and copying some drawings and formulas have sent them abroad, these people can be a very big threat and in this way atomic technology and secrets can be transferred to someone else. So is such a thing possible?
Samar: Look, I want to say this with a lot of clarity that if you are working in the nuclear program in the country, you sign an oath of secrecy on the first day of your work, all of us have signed this oath of secrecy and we understand it and we follow it very strictly. We have worked for 42 years on this program and in our department (PAEC) this culture was very strictly enforced that we will not even tell the other Directorate about or work, which are the Directorates of the Atomic Energy Commission also. Any person who required any information, he was given restricted access to that information according to his requirement only. Even the scientists working on different projects would not discuss their work with each other or amongst themselves. So this was the act of secrecy. Therefore if any scientist has violated the act of secrecy by exporting any secret, any document or paper, or any equipment or technology to any extent, this is a violation of the act of secrecy and I believe this is a very big injustice done to the nation because it is a trust that the nation has in us from day one and we should not violate this trust. Now regarding the issue of proliferation, and I am talking in the context of the world that the world has said that Pakistan has committed proliferation, there is a very obvious thing in all this, and because we are experimentalists and we have actually worked on the bomb, if someone would give me some drawings and formulas and ask me to build an atom bomb, so can I do it? To build a bomb, I would need training, I would need those machines by which atom bomb is manufactured, I would need raw materials, components which I can use in those machines to build a bomb, and most importantly I would need test equipment to test if bomb has been properly developed and works accurately or not. Now these are five things, design, training, materials, machines, and test equipment. Now for any country that does not know anything about such a program, if it is provided with one or two of these things or steps, so even then it cannot build an atom bomb until it does not have that human resource which is capable of developing that program from beginning to the end indigenously.

Hamid Mir: So what you are saying is that even if someone has given some secrets and drawings to Iran, Libya and North Korea, unless these countries have proper trained people with them, they cannot build nuclear weapons?
Samar: Yes unless there would be proper trained people in these countries, who have been educated in these disciplines and have the mental ability to accomplish this task from beginning to the end, if they have such a capability and you give them some things, then may be their program that would normally take 9.5 years if it would otherwise take them 10 yrs to accomplish this task because of your help and if they don’t have the capability, they will never be able to do it and the proof of this is the fact that it has been 14 yrs for people to have taken drawings, but nothing has been done till now.

Hamid Mir: So then what is the black market, why is the IAEA is so scared of the black market and is saying that some scientists have links with the black market?
Samar: Yes , as I mentioned to you earlier, the black market can cut short the time for your program and if you would need 10 years to do something, then because of the black market you may be able to do it in 8 years if you can get some things from the black market. But if you are able to get some things from the market but you don’t have the capability for doing other things, then you cannot reach anywhere. So this point needs to be understood that we have developed a capability over 40 years, we have 50,000 trained people who are working and who understand their work, we have machines, infrastructure, materials, we have our own uranium, and we have everything of our own. If today I have to buy some steel from somewhere which is not available in Pakistan or if I have to buy some electronic components which are also used in a radio and which are not made in my country, so if I buy some of these components from the market instead of building everything myself, it will only save me some time, but if someone were to give me some nuts and bolts and four transistors and ask me to build an atom bomb, so I will not be able to do it.

Hamid Mir: Dr. Sahib, after listening to your talk, a question would have come up in the minds of many viewers and the question is very genuine, that question I put in front of you, if the 1983 cold test was conducted by Dr. Samar Mubarakmand, if the atomic tests of 28th May 1998 were also conducted by Dr. Samar Mubarakmand, so then what did Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan do?
Samar: Look I have told you very clearly……

Hamid Mir: No, what was his role then?
Samar: His role was also of importance. We had designed the atomic bomb and manufactured it, we needed fuel for that, you can take the example that you have manufactured a motorcar for which we need petrol, so the fuel is enriched uranium, and Dr. Qadeer Khan had a very competent team of scientists, and most of them had gone there from the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission, and Dr. Qadeer was the administrator of this team in Kahuta. And this team at Kahuta developed and installed the facilities, which are necessary for the enrichment of uranium. So this is also one very important link in 15-20 equally important links needed for building an atomic bomb. So uranium itself is explored, refined and transformed into gaseous form by the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission and then this gaseous uranium goes to Kahuta where it is enriched which is also a difficult job and which is accomplished by the scientists of Kahuta, and there is a very big team of 10-12000 people who are working there, and after the uranium has been enriched, it is handed back to the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission where it is converted into metal and then used as fuel in a bomb, which is also developed by PAEC.

Hamid Mir: Also please tell us what is difference between Ghauri and Shaheen missiles? It is commonly presumed that the Ghauri was the brainchild of Dr. A.Q.Khan?
Samar: Ghauri missile runs on liquid fuel. The entire family of Shaheen missiles, Ghaznavi, Abdali, Shaheen version I & II etc are all solid fuelled missiles. The complete system of solid fuel missiles is designed and developed in my organization, NESCOM; all these solid fuelled missiles are designed, developed and mass-produced in NESCOM. And the Ghauri missile program began in Kahuta but at present the warhead of Ghauri is also developed in NESCOM and is our responsibility because warheads of Shaheen system missiles or Ghauri or for fighter aircraft are all developed by NESCOM.

Hamid Mir: You remained associated with Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission for 40 years, now NESCOM has been established, what is the reason behind its establishment and what is its role?
Samar: Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission is a research institution and in research one thing is first created and tested and is then brought to such a level where it can be used and is ready to be mass-produced. But when you have to undertake mass production of a particular item, whether it is a missile of nuclear warheads, which you have to develop and produce in large numbers, and when they are produced in such a way that they can be used by the Army or the Air Force, for this purpose a dedicated and separate organization is always established, whose responsibility is to produce strategic weapons in large numbers.

Hamid Mir: Thank you very much Dr. Samar Mubarakmand sahib

What the? Who's gonna read that wall of text? Can someone please tell me what it says, in about 5 words.

What the? Who's gonna read that wall of text? Can someone please tell me what it says, in about 5 words.
:ohno:

What the? Who's gonna read that wall of text? Can someone please tell me what it says, in about 5 words.

:lol:

Intellectual debate or defense program?

Intellectual debate or defense program?
Intellectual debate can cover any issue...

There is no general topic...:nuts: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOlLI1rre2U

Lots of intellect in this clip.

Here's an intellectual thought: How do you bring unity in a country with so many different ethnicities?

So many rumour and taboos are circulating around Pakistan about every other ethnic group. Question is how do you bring proper unity in Pakistan: one nation type mentality. I've seen it get better over the years, but I think it needs a lot of attention if were going to aim in becoming a sucessful islamic power. How can you bring together the Islamic world, when we ourselves in a "limbo".

Fire when ready!

Here is some of the work we came up with on UPK on this matter:

I hereby propose a new structure for the Government of Pakistan

Objectives:

- Simplified structure,
- Little bureaucracy
- Less tiers of government
- Less VIPs
- Efficient governance
- Fast reforms and progress
- Maximum local participation
- Emphasis on Pakistani identity and amalgamation rather than provincial identities
- Preservation of local cultures and demands
- Maximum local input in ensuring their own government
- a TRUE democracy
- ensure religious and minority rights and protection

Requirements:

- Pakistan's current governmental system should be abolished
- Provinces should be abolished and replaced by smaller Provinces or large districts that are based on regional needs such as big cities, regional areas and identities like South-eastern Sindh, Bahawalpur, Makran, Kalash, Hazara etc
- Min provincial divisions: 15
- Max provincial divisions: 20
- Provincial governments should be abolished
- Presidential system instead of Prime Ministerial system

HERES THE NEW STRUCTURE I PROPOSE

A: CENTRAL GOVERNMENT

Two houses, one consulting council:

1) NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

- members from each small province or large district based proportionately on population
- Max 150 members (proportionately divided on the bases of province populations)
- Population census to be conducted in each province after six years
- Members more responsible for provincial well being
- proposes and argues on laws based on their constituency's interests
- Prime Minister heads the national assembly and coordinates affairs smoothly
- National assembly proposes laws and passes drafts to be checked by the Religious and Secular Council and then to be approved by the Senate
- no Assembly member can be elected for more than two terms
- members have to be born in the district and should have lived there at least 75% of their life
- members must have a minimal qualification of graduation from a four-year college

>>RELIGIOUS AND SECULAR COUNCIL:

A consulting council of 3 members elected from each small province / large district (1 Sunni scholar, 1 Shia scholar, 1 minority representative)

- Headed by the Prime Minister who can veto the decision of the council ONLY in case of a squabble or indecision
- Senate can veto and remove amendments by the council based on national interest
- advises the National Assembly on the correctness of laws by proposing amendments to drafts passed by the Assembly.
- Sunni / Shia scholars need to be qualified - at least 4 years university degree in religion, plus 4 years experience in jurisprudence
- Sunni / Shia scholars make sure that any law doesnt go blatantly unislamic
- Minority representatives elected from provinces' religious/secular minorities
- Minority representatives make sure that any law doesnt disrespect their rights or freedoms
- Decisions on amendments MUST BE MADE BY VOTING by the council members.
- Approved laws are passed back to the National Assembly for review and final vote before going to the senate.
- A maximum of three months allowed for decision making by council after which, the draft automatically goes to senate for approval.


2) SENATE

- 2 members from each district regardless of population or area
- members more responsible for national well being
- has final say in passing laws
- headed by President, supreme head of state who can veto any laws
- senate votes and passes any laws that are approved by the National Assembly
- after national assembly and senate approval, president signs or vetos laws to bring them into effect
- President coordinates the senate and makes sure all demands are met in national interests
- members should have lived in the region for at least 75% of their life
- members should have completed at least a four-year bachelors degree
- members elected from either of three possible political parties
- no senator can be elected for more than two terms

DUTIES OF CENTRAL GOVERNMENT:

Decides national strategies and looks after national security and well being.
Devise national policies for defence, foreign affairs, education, healthcare, infrastructure, human development etc. based on small voluntary comittees picked from the national assembly. Each comittee should have an appointed professional consultant who should have a master's degree in the subject and who advises the comittee on making effective decisions that are then approved by the national assembly and the senate.



B: SMALL PROVINCE / LARGE DISTRICT GOVERNMENTS

1) CENTRAL COUNCIL

- A representative elected from the district to coordinate the following affairs within the district:
- Edcucation
- Healthcare
- Infrastructure
- Human Development
- Provincial security (heads police, etc)
- Revenue and taxation (at least 50% of taxes collected from an area should be spent in the SAME area)
- other important areas such as transportation, energy, etc
- Headed by the Province Nazim
- Each representative must have at least five years experience in their relative areas and must have at least a three year diploma
- Decides local strategies, and looks after local well being
- Decides projects for the province based on local input


2) LOCAL COUNCIL

Each large district has at least four local councils headed by Naib Nazims

- representatives from the locality who act as sub-coordinators in the same areas as the central council.
- Mostly responsible for taking local feedback and implementing projects

ELECTIONS

A: CENTRAL GOVERNMENT

- Representatives to be elected from 3 possible political parties only!
- National Assembly representative can be elected for maximum of 2 terms
- Senators can be elected for maximum of 3 terms (being a senator becomes better with experience in national affairs)
- President or Prime Minister cannot be elected for more than 2 terms
- each party must conduct party elections before each national election to decide on a party head for those elections
- No party head can be elected more than 2 times
- 4 year terms for each house
- Representatives to the religious and secular council can be elected for 4 terms of 4 years each

B: SMALL PROVINCE / LARGE DISTRICT GOVERNMENT

- Local government elections not based on political parties
- Anybody can be a candidate (as long as they are properly qualified) and 3 rounds of local elections are held (after 2 months each) to narrow down on candidate options.
- No local councillor or Nazim can be elected more than 3 times
- Local councillors and Nazims are elected for 4 year terms as well.

LEGISLATIVE PROCESS OF THE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT

- National Assembly drafts and passes law based on provincial interests
- Religious and Secular council deliberates and votes on law, and proposes amendments to make sure its religiously, and secularly correct
- National Assembly reviews and votes on amended law
- if law passes, it goes to the Senate for approval
- if law fails, National Assembly meets with Religious and Secular Council in joint session to debate on amendments
- National Assembly passes second draft
- Religious and Secular council reviews and proposes amendments to the second draft
- National Assembly reviews amended draft and votes on it.
- if passes, it goes to the Senate for approval
- if fails, one last try is possible after which Senate can review all three drafts and vote on the best one themselves.

In order to bring about a effective system of governance in Pakistan we must first look at the population and percentages of the population of the provinces. Then we must establish a system based on our research and findings. Below I have listed all my research.

Actual Populations of the provinces and territories:

Punjab: 73,621,290 (1998)
Sindh: 30,439,893 (1998)
NWFP: 17,743,645 (1998)
Balochistan: 6,565,885 (1998)
Northern Areas: 1,500,000 (1998)
Azad Kashmir: 3,965,999 (1998)
FATA: 3,341,070 (1998)

Actual Total Population Count: 137,177,782

Estimated Population of the Provinces and Territories:
Punjab: 75,000,000
Sindh: 35,000,000
NWFP: 20,000,000
Balochistan: 7,000,000
Northern Areas: 2,000,000
Azad Kashmir: 4,000,000
FATA: 4,000,000

Estimated Total Population Count: 147,000,000

Now I know that we have 165 million people estimated for 2006 but I do not have access to those 2006 estimates for the provinces. I have decided to award the territories provincial status for sake of argument. To make the math easier on those math challenged, I have decided to use the estimated figures.

Estimated Percentage of Total Population by Province:

Punjab: 51 %
Sindh: 23.8 %
NWFP: 13.6 %
Balochistan: 4.76 %
Northern Areas: 1.36 %
Azad Kashmir: 2.72 %
FATA: 2.72 %

+ OR - .04 %

Now what this research tell us is that we need to understand that dividing the provinces into smaller pieces will NOT be enough to solve the problem we currently face. As you can see Balochistan is the largest province in Pakistan yet it has a population of 7 million which is about 4.76 % of the population. Therefore, dividing Balochistan would further weaken the position of the Baloch people. We must find a solution to the problems that dividing the provinces will create. The solution for this would be to implement a National assembly where EVERY province will have 5 seats. Therefore, no one lacks representation in this new government structure. We can also adopt another house where the seats will be based on population but it will be under the National Assembly. This is a very simple solution to the problems and off course more reforms will be needed to make this idea feasible.

We must divide the provinces and I am sure there is no doubt about that in anyone's mind at this point. But we must make sure we do this carefully, so that the system can be strong and actually function as planned.

It is imperative that we…



Empower the local populace
First step towards more democratic society
Self sufficiency of the provinces through taxation and through the budget

First step towards provincial autonomy
Not divide along ethnic or linguistic lines

Dividing on these lines will further harm our unity
If we don't do this carefully we will end up with a lot of wasted time and a failed strategy that did more harm than good.

If you take reference towards my analysis and swerveuts, there are safeguards in the system so that in the Senate the population of the provinces would be immaterial. This system is quite similar to what the US current has with the Congress and House of Representatives. If you have ever studied US history, you would see similarities to what we are going through right now. We simply can not divide all the other provinces and leave big huge Balochistan alone which is already the largest province in the country. If you refer to our proposals you will clearly see that there is no reason for them to bitch because of the following…


- members have to be born in the district and should have lived there at least 75% of their life
- 2 members from each district regardless of population or areaSo as you can see the system is quite fair and takes into consideration what the people of Pakistan fear.

Please dont bring our neighbours into this discussion, posts deleted.

Here's an intellectual thought: How do you bring unity in a country with so many different ethnicities?

So many rumour and taboos are circulating around Pakistan about every other ethnic group. Question is how do you bring proper unity in Pakistan: one nation type mentality. I've seen it get better over the years, but I think it needs a lot of attention if were going to aim in becoming a sucessful islamic power. How can you bring together the Islamic world, when we ourselves in a "limbo".

Fire when ready!

The reason people engage in such petty issues is because they have the time to do so! They should be working their asses off trying to provide a decent living for their family. As they saying goes, idle hands are the devils playground. I think Pakistan is on course towards ending this ethnic "strife", if you will.

- Pakistan needs to invest in education, there needs to be an "every child must go to school policy", and it should be enforced vigorously. This policy should be enforced at the very grassroots level in the far-flung areas. The Government needs to offer compensation to the poor families in return for those families sending their children to school. The compensation should be in the form of feeding the children while they are in school and a cash allowance for every day attended plus a bonus for every grade passed. Money needs to be diverted from senseless defense acquisitions and white elephant projects such as the "National Monument" in Islamabad to strengthening the education infrastructure. The children of our nation are afterall the future of our nation and if money is not spent on their devlopment than what future lies for Pakistan?

- One of the best policies of the current Government is the "investor friendly atmosphere" it has created. We need to maintain the growth at any cost. The Government is doing an excellent job by inviting Arab investment in the country and it needs to to do an even better job. All redtape and beuracracy must be done away with. Economic growth translates into job creation and once people have jobs, they dont have any time to indulge in such petty issues of ethnicity and creed. Why do you think the moderate populace of Pakistan is the "silent majority"? It is the silent majority because it is the educated majority, it is employed and does not have the time to indulge in such matters. Quite simply, if a person has a job he/she does not have the time for these "shennanigans", PERIOD.

- Invest in the countries law enforcement authorities. Police reforms are the way to do this. All the higherups of Police should be replaced with educated, well paid and socially-aware individuals and this should be done from the SHO level. Other measures that need to be taken to reform the police is anyones guess.

:2cents:

PAF has not made a major arms purchase since the 80’s and here you are calling our defense acquisitions senseless. Pakistan’s national security should ALWAYS come before anything and everyone else.

PAF has not made a major arms purchase since the 80’s and here you are calling our defense acquisitions senseless. Pakistan’s national security should ALWAYS come before anything and everyone else.

But ofcourse.

UP has obviously done a lotta thinking but I think one critical point is missing and that is to clean up and strenghen the judicial system.

UP has obviously done a lotta thinking but I think one critical point is missing and that is to clean up and strenghen the judicial system.
You cannot clean the system until you have a responsible moderate CJ because any tampering by the executive branch will cause the same problems we are having right now.

The CJ might be strolling around hand in hand with Aitzaz Ahsan now, but what about before? Why is it that everyone here is outrightly denying the facts that are staring us in our faces?

This CJ made some very good decisions. He stopped the sale of the Steel Mills, he Stopped the New Murree Project and thousands fo trees from being slaughtered, he actually heard the plea of the relatives of the missing people and forced the Government to take action, he was sincere in his approach to the investigation of the KSE crash, in which allot of our senior bankers were involved, he actually cared about the environment etc.

And why was he ousted? because he "allegedly" got his son a job in the police. Hogwash! If someone was to make a list of "favors" done by Musharraf and Shaukat Aziz, I can guarantee you that the list would be endless.

A strong, free and fair judicial system is the stuff of legends. Something Pakistan will never be able to achieve as long as Pakistan remains a "one man show". Musharraf had an excellent chance to reform our judiciary but he pissed it away.

Here's an intellectual thought: How do you bring unity in a country with so many different ethnicities?

So many rumour and taboos are circulating around Pakistan about every other ethnic group. Question is how do you bring proper unity in Pakistan: one nation type mentality. I've seen it get better over the years, but I think it needs a lot of attention if were going to aim in becoming a sucessful islamic power. How can you bring together the Islamic world, when we ourselves in a "limbo".

Fire when ready!

educate, educate and educate

The CJ might be strolling around hand in hand with Aitzaz Ahsan now, but what about before? Why is it that everyone here is outrightly denying the facts that are staring us in our faces?

This CJ made some very good decisions. He stopped the sale of the Steel Mills, he Stopped the New Murree Project and thousands fo trees from being slaughtered, he actually heard the plea of the relatives of the missing people and forced the Government to take action, he was sincere in his approach to the investigation of the KSE crash, in which allot of our senior bankers were involved, he actually cared about the environment etc.

And why was he ousted? because he "allegedly" got his son a job in the police. Hogwash! If someone was to make a list of "favors" done by Musharraf and Shaukat Aziz, I can guarantee you that the list would be endless.

A strong, free and fair judicial system is the stuff of legends. Something Pakistan will never be able to achieve as long as Pakistan remains a "one man show". Musharraf had an excellent chance to reform our judiciary but he pissed it away.

I agree with you completely - Musharraf really messed up big time. I personally completely support Shurfu cause imo Pakistanis are too dumb and too uneducated to deserve democracy. In Pakistan's case as Kent Brockman would say "Democracy simply doesnt work".

But Musharraf should not have messed with justice, period. CJ did take quite a few good steps and it was horrible the way Shurfu acted. Still, nothing gives CJ right to do what he has been doing recently.

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/dmag/images/dmag2.jpg
When a friend asked me to write a piece on Pakistan, I thought he was joking. Not being a writer, however, I was quite flattered by the request, but was quickly faced with the dilemma of a blank page staring back at me.

How do you start describing something that you eat, breathe and sleep? With some apprehension, I sat down and decided to write not only about the place but also about my experiences with that broad, colourful spectrum of humanity that calls itself Pakistani.

This is my personal and subjective perspective. I have lived in the two largest cities of the country; Karachi, where I was born and raised and where I live today -- and Lahore, the city which has an eternal connection with my soul.

While the inhabitants of the two cities differ in many ways, they share three common traits, which are pretty representative of all our people. Whether it was the old grandmother living in the Walled City of Lahore who insisted on serving our group of six students tea and a hot meal while we were surveying their area or the gracious hostess in her sprawling mansion in Karachi’s Defence area — the compassion, generosity and hospitality I have experienced is the same. And perhaps another one: our love affair with food!

During my college days in Lahore, I used to travel by all sorts of public transport: the rickshaw, bus, train, plane, flying coaches and even the deadly minibus or wagon as they are called in Punjab — sometimes in a group, sometimes just with another girl. There were hardly any untoward incidents that I can recall — and the few that did happen, were dealt with effectively by passersby; strangers who helped us of their own accord without wanting anything in return.

I have strolled down the narrow lanes of Rashakai and Barra in Peshawar, Ichhra and Anarkali in Lahore, Bohri Bazaar and Jodia Bazaar in Karachi, and have been mesmerised by the different sounds and smells of places, teeming with diversity and a deep vibrancy that is thousands of years old.

I have attended a Punjabi Christian wedding in Sialkot and a Goan Christian wedding in Karachi and seen how people can assimilate themselves into their local environs while retaining an identity of their own. I have been to Nauroze celebrations and Navjote ceremonies and partaken of the wonderful Parsi cuisine, which is representative of the gentle, cultured Zoroastrians I grew up with, but who, sadly, left in droves.

I have celebrated the colours of Holi, fired patakhas and gorged on shikarpuri mithai on Diwali; flown kites and climbed treacherous rooftops on Basant; danced to the beat of the dhol and festive songs at Mayuns and Mehndis.

I have stayed in small towns and villages in Sindh, Balochistan, Punjab and the NWFP and enjoyed the magnanimous feasts arranged by modest hosts. I have experienced the barren, arid beauty of Balochistan; the haunting silence of Makli and Chawkandi tombs in the moonlight; the seas and lakes of Sindh; the rich and fertile plains and rivers of Punjab; the rugged majesty of the mountains of the north and the splendour of waterfalls and mountain rivers; the impenetrable Attock, Rohtas and Shigar forts, the Tarbela and Khanpur dams; gone trout fishing on the picture perfect Satpara lake in Skardu; driven to Gujranwala for chirras and kasur for andrasay, to Hyderabad for machli and rabri, to Bombay Bakery for the most divine coffee cake, to Peshawar for namak wala gosht, to Murree for the first snowfall just to walk down Mall Road in the snow while licking ice-cream cones, to Nathiagali for wild berries, horse riding and chicken Karahi.

I have travelled all over Swat, the beautiful valley of the warm people who opened their arms and homes for us. The same Swat which is now burning because of religious fanaticism yet where we travelled as a group of 20 boys and girls and encountered no prejudices, religious or social; where we sat in the beautiful Marghazar Palace with the raging Swat River beside us providing its own music.

I have found gracious hospitality at army cantonments in Khulduna, Gharyal, Kharian and others. I have experienced the assistance from them when one of our colleagues lost his way in the hills of Abbotabad. I have witnessed the passing-out parades of handsome cadets at impressive ceremonies in Risalpur. I have protested and picketed outside the Governor and Chief Minister’s House in Lahore. I have been threatened by the women in black of the Jamaat-i-Islami and run from their armed thugs when they attacked our defenceless artists on campus. I have skipped classes to catch the first drops of rain at Jehangir’s Tomb, smell the mutti ki khushboo in vast fields, have a steaming cup of kashmiri chai fom Lakshmi Chowk, woken up at dawn to see the sunrise and have the seasonal hareesa from Nisbat Road, walked for miles to take a walk in the park, view an exhibition, take a tonga ride and catch rainbows.

I have seen Punjabi movies sitting inside the box and whistled and cheered lustily at Anjuman’s thumkas and her thunder thighs, at Sultan Rahi and his gandasa.

As a child, I have slid down the sloping walls of the Jehangir Kothari Parade, have driven to the Clifton beach like all Karachiites, to glimpse the sea through the car window or walk down the crumbling sea wall and take a bumpy camel ride, uncertain whether I love it or hate it -- but MUST do it; have been to the public beaches and seen fully clothed women bathing in the sea with their shalwars ballooning behind them.

I have read in the quiet, air-conditioned haven of the British Council and American Centre libraries, before terrorism reared its head and they became fortresses and inaccessible to the people they were meant for. I have sat cross-legged around a thaal and eaten delicious Bohri food, heard their language, eaten dhokray and macchi ka pulao at Memon households, gone for congregational taraveehs and prayers in Ramazan, ending up at Baakra hotel in Kharadar, eaten daal mash and paratha at truck driver stands while driving through the countryside; had friendly passersby help in changing punctured tyres, sales boys entice me with saris by trying it on themselves, be offered courteous service and udhaar from the neighbourhood grocer, the sabzi wala and fruit wala.

I have had complete strangers pray for me when I was ill, give me duas to read, holy water to drink. I have been surrounded by love and caring by friends and family who are humane, who have gone out of their way to support me emotionally and physically, and who have seen me through the most trying times of my life.

Where can one experience such diversity of people, of food and clothing, of hospitality and meagre means, of emotions and affection, of generosity of the spirit and the self, and of humanity?

Pakistan Zindabad!
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/dmag/dmag2.htm

^^ She could have so easily made this article so much more interesting and captivating than it is. What a letdown!

:cheer:

ooga don't forget this thread is only for intellectuals :bash:







j/k

ooga don't forget this thread is only for intellectuals :bash:

Then what are you doing here?



















:lol: