Angola Records 20.6 Percent Growth for 2005


May 25, 2006
Posted to the web May 25, 2006

Luanda

Angola's growth reached 20.6 percent in 2005, the government said on Wednesday.

The oil-driven economy grew at its fastest pace since independence in 1975, according to government figures.

The International Monetary Fund (IMF) predicated growth of 18 percent for 2005 against a figure of 12.2 percent for the previous year. The IMF expects growth of at least 27 percent for 2006, which would make Angola the fastest growing economy in the world.

Angola is sub-Saharan Africa's second largest oil producer. High oil prices and development in the sector have helped the country rebuild infrastructure following the end of a 27-years civil war in 2002.

Angola produces 1.4 million barrels of oil per day, most of which is exported to China. Investments from BP, Chevron, Exxon Mobil and its own national oil company Sonangol are likely to take this figure over 2 million by the end of 2007.

Angola has used some of its oil revenue to build up reserves of $14.4bn.
Although the government has built up reserves and is trying to diversify revenue, oil still accounts for over 80 percent of current fiscal receipts.

thats crazy, it means that the GDP will double in 4 years.

Yeah, that´s true. it is really sky-rocketing

^^ ANGOLA ^^ :cheers: :rock:

Is Angola the next Eq. Guinea?

And BTW, exactly how have thye been managing such high growth rates?

Naga Solidus, No, it is much better due its its sheer size and massive natural ressoruce potential. Angola is presently like the Wild West, investors from all over are flocking to that country in droves (and many people are not merely interested in the oil sector). If Angola mantains its double digit growth for at least ten years, the country will have unrecognizably changed. :)...and it might be better than Thailand for example... :) and on par with countries such as Malaysia

sadly no african country (apart from perhaps SA or Botswana)will achieve what the far east has achieved as the corruption and incompetance in angola is still huge. But it is doing well and I deal with angolan investments practically every day in my job. A very enjoyable country to visit.

it certainly could teach nigeria a thing or two!

Mike 2000, If we were fortune tellers, we would already all be young millionaires and gleefully relax our mind somewhere on the sun-drenched and coconut-tree plastered French Antilles or the Bahamas, so how can you predict that Africa will never change? (except SA and Botswana). Have it escaped your notice that Thailand has had more than 30 coup d´états in its past and that corruption riddles Malaysia as well? That South Korea was showered with hundreds of billion of dollars from its day of creation by the US? (all this doesn´t mean that Asia has done very well and showed a lot of will and strength of development, of course)....but to condemn the whole of Africa beforehand is far too early. Of course, Africa´s past gives more ground for pessism than for optimism but if we adopt only a pessimistic attitude "we can just drop an atomic bomb on the almost all African countries" ...because "they will never change" and that´s it!
Angola is emerging from almsot 35 years of brutal civil war, it is more than a generation lost. The country is not receiving a lot of aid as opposed to some countries in the Middle East which have even more oil like Irak for instance, and which are helped massively by the international community. Angola is doing EVERYTHING on its own and three years of peace is too early to indirectly say that it is a "failed state" and that it will never reach the potential of Thailand or Malaysia due to its so-called “corruption and imcompetence syndrom”. I cannot share that simple-minded viewpoint, sorry! (and I am not bulging with optimism but with a good sense of realism.)

As for India which is showing great economic viguour,...but I can tell you that Germany gave a toss for that country 15 to 20 years back. (“lost in abject poverty and underdevelopment”...”does the world truly who needs India”?, this is what sad thruth that occupied the minds of businesspeople as well as politicians at that time). Nowadays they are hastily queing up to get their slice of the juicy pie. Moreover, it is showered with enormous praise by the German media (which it also partly desserves, to my mind).

So please let´s be a bit more balanced. Africa´s success will largely be due to the development of South Africa but that does not mean that the rest won´t join the the trail to a “better world”. Thanks to the emergence of countries such as India and China, Africa will be offered a good chance (maybe its last in the age of capitalism) to climb the ladder of economic success. Angola and Nigeria, Ghana, Senegal as well as Kenya and Mozambique are well-positioned to take up the fight, too. (Maybe Côte d´ivoire and/or Zimbabwe, too, when durbale peace and “wisdom” returns to those two countries)


PS: As for Botswana which falls in the same catgory like Gabon, Namibia etc.....these countries will be too small to have any remarkable impact on the world stage. I largely doubt that they will ever reach the status of Thailand or Malaysia (due to their size) in terms of economic strenth not in terms of GDP per head. ..but they can perfectly position themselves in the field of agro-technology, mining-processing or the service sector.
:)

^^ :applause: :applause: :applause:

Thank You Matt..very good analysis.

Skipperbill, no problem. :)

mate you dont actually live here and you never have done!! I actually live and work in the africa for a US investment bank dealing with investments in africa and who deals with african governments every day as part of the job!!!Sorry but Africa (outside of SA) has some oppertunities to make money but none of it is well run by normal standards and as for living in it it is pretty miserable outside of SA and Botswana and Namibia. Sorry but whilst there is some good economic growth in parts of the continet it is still badly run and things are not getting any better. You go on about Angola and oother african countries but i bet you would like to bring up your kids in them!!! And I doubt in 50 years you would want to either. Sorry mate but thats the reality. Corruption/incompetance/stupidity/skills shortages etc are NOT getting better here and in many places they are getting much much worse. Even with angola 20% is 20% of basically nothing and with all that oil it would be quite remarkable if they were nopt achieving such growth with current oil prices!!!

Mike2000, if you had read more of my postings you would have known that I lived and had grown up in Africa and still have many contacts as well as friends in various parts from and in Africa. (I do travel as well as my parents and friends to Africa) And I know many people who regret having left and seek to return because the miss the African way of life and the people. So you needn´t instruct me on Africa. (I am the wrong person for that) Sorry, but you are pretty one-sided: "Forget the rest of Africa outside of SA, Botswana and Namibia" :bash:

PS:Mike2000, you should apply for a post at the German media, I am sure that they will have a place for people like you.

Miek2000, high growth rates are usually almost due to one or two sectors that are booming. Nobody can expect something different from a developing country at the beginning...and even the more from a nation which has been ruined by war. Growth deriving from the export of natural resources was and is the case for South Africa as well as for Botswana (diamonds) and Namibia, too. Moreover, Nigeria is also experiencing growth outside the oil sector. I cannot understand why you already condemn Angola so early? 3 years of peace and you are expecting another Malaysia/Thailand/South Africa from a country that has suffered almost 35 years of brutal civil strife and war??? Angola has a very good source of highly professional people who are returning to the country....and the country is truly doing a great effort at reconstruting WHICH IS NOT EASY AS IT IS NOT REALLY SUPPORTED BY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY (besides, its former colonial power Portugal which has a particular relation)

GIVE IT SOME MORE TIME. How can you say that Angola will be exatly in 50 years time as it is nowadays? Is our world the same place nowadays as it was 50 years back (1956)????? HISTORY AND CHANGE NEED TO BE KEYWORDS YOU SHOULD KEEP IN MIND :yes:

Sometimes people judge countries, especially African countries, on a different perspective. Of course, African countries won't be moving in the same wavelength as the Europeans. They both have different parameters. African countries will be moving forwards based on the variables that they have. It's not going to be in the same fast phase as the Europeans but they will surely be moving forwards. Angola is having a revival with the help of professionals who had their aliyah just like Israel had theirs. The same thing is true with the El Salvador. Because of political trouble, many of El Salvador's citizens left. Now they are coming back armed with the knowledge they gained while staying in advance countries like the U.S.

Because of Oil...

If they don't diversify their economy, when oil prices tumble, it may go the other way..

this is useless info to me unless the money is going back to the country and develop areas "OUTSIDE LUANDA " and to the poor its nothing ,we got the same prob here in sa ,for some reason most african leaders like keeping the money to themselves and buy houses in euro ....there i said it 3rd world mentailty

mate am not condeming it Im just saying that NO african country will achieve what aisia has. Africa has been independant for many many years anmd under the same global trade conditions as aisia it has gone backwards and sorry to say outside of a few economic stats is still going backwards!! Angloa has few if any proffesionals and as for your assertion that it has many skilled people returning : I very much doubt that. I go many times a year and most doctors etc want to leave not go back. How many times have you been to angola mate? I applaud you efforts on this forum but you and all you other european and american posters are very nieve when it comes to our continent!!

Mike2000,How can I be naive when I am an african (or at least half African)? I have been to Angola twice and my father has good contacts to that country...as he travels there frequently on his business trips (as to many other parts in Africa). He is an TRUE AFRICAN so I really trust him what he tells...and he is saying the absolute opposite of you. PEOPLE ARE RETURNING AND NOT LEAVING. (whwn you talk of leaving here in Germany last years more than 150 000 Germans left due to the bad econimic condition of germany and germany is still statistically NO. 3 in the world)
Angola is moving in the right direction. (this what his businesspartners are telling him and when he speaks to the folks down there....., this doesn´t mean that there are still challenges to overcome).
Angola gained its independence from Portugal in 1975 and a brutal civil war after the war of liberation set inn. Peace was sealed in 2002...so 3 and half years ago, that country starts to build up in some areas from scratch. ....We are not living in 2025 so that we can say angola has failed.
As for Asia (take out South Korea, taiwan, Singapore and Hong Kong as well as the other giants India and China)....with the rest of the countries, nothing very extraordinary that cannot be achieved by African countries such as Angola in the same span of time if not even shorter than Thailand, Indonesia or Malaysia has down. We are not talking about the first generation tiger economies, this will be very difficult to achieve for African countries...but for the second generation tiger economies, no doubt about them. (I have been to Thailand and Malaysia for holidays and I know what I am talking about)

er a true african? what do you mean by that? as in south africans/zimbabweans are not true africans? How long have you lived here and where? Sorry mate but Africa cannot achieve what aisia has done as it does not have the skills base.

but mathais I do love this forum and I applaud all the work you have done in setting it up .

I lived in Côte d´ivoire and Nigeria (should know that from my other posts). Skill base: African people are skilled and intelligent....oh my god, you are really like a the guy who ventured into the "heart of darkness" in Joseph conrad´s novel.

Why for heavens sake shouldn´t Angola or another country become another Thailand or Malaysia? :bash:

I am not talking abouth South Korea, Taiwan or Singapore, man!

venture into the heart of darkness?!!! I actually live here!!!!

er a true african? what do you mean by that? as in south africans/zimbabweans are not true africans? How long have you lived here and where? Sorry mate but Africa cannot achieve what aisia has done as it does not have the skills base.

Wow, where did you get this from? I think he was simply telling you that his father is a well traveled man who has been to many parts of Africa. :weirdo:

I have read some of your posts and I am at a loss for words. I am still trying to figure out you alergic reaction to any good news from Africa.

A 20%+ growth in GDP for a nation emerging out of civil war like Angola is great news no matter what way you look at it.

As far as saying that African's are incompetent and unable to manage themselves...I think with views like that you might find a great home in the neo-Nazi movement in Europe, they need poeple like you.

I dont have an allergic reaction to good news from africa and I welcome it but I am afraid that we have to be grounded in reality on this forum. As for your nazi comment you are a bloody idiot. Africa GOVERNMENTS have shown quite clearly that they are not able to run things effeciently and all I say is that africa cannot develop untill the excuses stop and governments accept their duty to provide for the people and not narrow sectional interests and themselves.

"but mathais I do love this forum and I applaud all the work you have done in setting it up ."


Mike2000, It is hard to believe that for me when I read your comments on countries beyond the "civilised rim" (South Africa and Namibia). Give our continent a C-H-A-N-C-E Africa desserves it! There are other "Thailands" and "Malaysias" realisable on the continent

you are a bloody idiot.

Now you are starting to show your true colors. lol

Africa GOVERNMENTS have shown quite clearly that they are not able to run things effeciently

Do you not realize that AFRICAN GOVERNMENTS are run by AFRICAN PEOPLE. And we all know that governments change from time to time with good people(like Obsanjo, Kibaki etc.) replacing bad ones.

But you are not writing off only leaders you are writing off entire COUNTRIES. You are telling us that no African COUNTRIES filled with AFRICAN PEOPLE can prosper no matter what. I beg to differ. I think AFRICAN PEOPLE are intelligent and they are capable of what any European peoples can do.

Like my man Matt said, GIVE AFRICA A CHANCE.

For any under-developed country, an economic growth rate of 20% is remarkable.
So, please, just be happy for Angola.It just emerged from a civil war, not that long ago (just 3.5 yeard). I believe that it is tooooooo early for judgements from ANYBODY.

Angola is doing everything on its own. They are not receiving any help. China, India, Brazil, Portugal give loans (with high interest rates) to Angola. The IMF is not exactly helping (they are always critising. yes the government is crap, the next elections will be hold in the first quater of 2007, chance for a change).

Normally, any country that just emerged from a war will have a donor conference within 1 year by the IMF. 3 years have passed and still no donor conference for Angola.

When Europe got out of WW2, the US can with the Marshall plan, without this plan God can only tell where Europe would have been now. It certainly wouldn't be as industrialised and modern as it is now.

It also took Europe 40 years (min.) to become modern and industrialised as it is now. This doen not entail the whole of Europe, just Western Europe. When you look at East Europe, that is totaly different than Western Europe. Even Southern Europe is not THAT modern. Spain, Portugal, Italy and others still have a lot to do if they want to reach the same level as West Europe.

Give Africa a chance, just like matt said. :)

Nice thread Matt. Keep up the good work! ;) ;) ;)

oh well growth is growth hope the dont waste it like oil rich nigeria"well there learning now sort of" we should all take a page out of the botswana admin

all I try to do is get some realism here. After all that is what we have in the SA forum and it makes it much more interesting. My bank produced a report a ferw weeks ago here in Joburg to warn our clients of the very real problems in africas oil producing nations. Namely that the high oil prices are obscuring major structural problems and that when the oil price calms down they are going to have some serious problems. As we pointed out the structaral investment and reform that needs to be done after the last oil price boom is just not taking place in angola/nigeria etc and neither is the serious attempts at a sustainable social investment coupled with tax and rebate simplification and a more liquid domestic capital market. As we saw before with nigeria after the last oil price boom as soon a oil falls the country struggles again and the factories that opened soon close and the infastructure continues to crumble. As we concluded in the report to our clients africas share of the global economy will continue to fall and the cost of buisiness due to crumbling infastructure will continue to rise (as it has been doing this year and will do next year as well). As we put it africas oil producing governments are currently living in a 'fools paradise' So sorry guys and gals who dont like a dose of realism but africa esp angola and nigeria is actually missing out on a very real chance for sustainable growth at the moment.

BTW nice of you to mention Kibaki. I dont know why this forum loves him so much as he has actually been a pretty useless leader. His government is still riddled with corruption and the last budget showed a £6 BILLION black hole between tax reciepts and spending due to corruption according to calculations by PWC and Barclays. Indeed Kenya is spending only 70% of what it needs to keep infastructure at its already woefull levals. Food for thought guys.

a little task for all you people out there. Compare the sustainable economic growth models of Moz and Ghana with the unstable and short term models of Nigeria and Angola. In Moz and Ghana you have proper STRUCTURAL economic growth and in Angola for example you have revenue economic growth due to an unpredictable geo political climate ie: oil price which unless combined with structural reform etc is rather meaningless in the long run. Firstly Angola could put some of that revenue into starting a felxible domestic capital market. Secondly it could reduce 25% of taxes to stimulate domestic growth that could minimize reliance on a high oil price, thirdly it could reduce capital gains taxes and introduce tax rebates for domestic reinvestment. Finally and crucially it needs to relax foreign worker regulations so as to prevent its crippling skills shortage becoming a noose.I could go on but I wont as you prob wont understand what I am going on about. But that is what angola need to do to convert a 20% growth rate into a sustainable structural 10% per anum growth rate. Then we could have a new botswana on our hands.

Mike2000, We do perfectly understand what you are alluding to and the buzzword of the 70´s, namely "dutch-disease" sums it up what you enlarged on. I am completing my studies in politics and economics so I am AWARE of what you are telling us. ...but to be honest with you, I am not very fond of predictions. In 1968 Gunnar Myrdal wrote a book "the Asian drama", in the mid 90´s Worldbank wrote a report on the “East Asian Miracle” and two years later, we all witnessed the Asian crisis. History gives tons of those stupid examples.
But most of the consultant agencies and banking instritues mainly love to produce paper and keep their people occupied. Have it escaped your notice that those countries which didn´t pay much heed to what the IWF and World bank said during the Asian crisis emerged better than the ones which did not? (example: Thailand and Mahatir´s Malaysia, the latter gave a toss for the “IWF medicine” and Malaysia came out of the crisis more quickly and unscathed than Thailand did)


As for Angola and Nigeria do you really think that people/businesspeople just sit around and do nothing else than awaiting the free flow of easy petrodollars? Nigerians would really feel deeply hurt and insulted by such unbalanced and stereotypical viewpoints. Sorry, how simple-minded are you? There are a lot of macro-economic reforms taking place in Nigeria which are on par with those of Ghana and Mozambique. NIGERIA IS NO LONGER THAT “TRASH COUNTRY” IT USED TO BE IN THE 90´s if it still hasn´t come to your mind? (By the way foreign debt is almost entirely reduced in Nigeria and still after the repayment of foreign debt, Nigeria´s foreign exchange reserves are still almost TWICE those of South Africa.....and the oil price is by now way falling and it will not be falling quickly, so foreign resserves will touch at least a 100 BILLION DOLLARS in 2 to 3 years). In the past all the money was recklessly spinoed off or spent on lavish and insane projects (exactely hat you described) and the debts that Obasanjo had to repay now derives from that period of the 70´s and early 80´s of high oil prices. You have to speak with the Nigerian finance minister.
Angola is another story (as Lady L and SkipperBill are saying, the country is not supported by the international community and , to my mind, its oil base is still far too small in order to support an entire recovery for all regions of that vast country, Angola is not Russia or Saudia Arabia!!!...but a country that makes great strides towards reconstruction and recovery even in some of the four points that you mentioned above). Moreover, the country has currently other priority areas than to fulfill those four aspects you touched upon. (more water and sanitation projects, more social housing: Angola currently embarks on building more than 250 000 social housing projects in the country.... which is still not enough, more hospitals, building and rebuilding airports, railways, roads highways, bridges...moreover, Angola will open its first stock exchange at the end of 2006 which is not a bad decision)
As Lady L Sipper Bill and myself say: ANGOLA NEEDS M-O-R-E T-I-M-E!!!

Germany´s war ended in 1945, was Germany a full-fledged economy with all the macro-econimc reforms already in place by 1948????? No, not even with the enormous finacial and technical help it received during those times

As for the skill base: you might feel offended but there are more skilled Nigerians (in absolute number!!), even more if you take those from the Diaspora into account, than South Africans where the vast majority of people have been ruthlessly denied access to a decent education under apartheid. and even Angola is not a country of stupid illiterates (as you are alluding, too)...there are many clever, well eduacted and intelligent people (do not forget the vast diapora of Angolans consisting of black Angola-Angolans in Europe and beyond, white Portuguese-Angolans and Brazilian-Angolans)

Matthias, If you will heed my advice, quit this discussion with Mike/Dysan. I am speaking as a Nigerian who lived in South Africa. Their hate for Nigerians has reached dangerous levels. Their media is obsessed with painting a bad picture of Nigerians every single day guatanteed on their 7pm news. Notice how Dysan said all Africa will develop EXCEPT Nigeria. You wont win with them. It is almost visceral.

Africa especially Nigeria is moving forward. People may shut themselves up to reality but soon enough they will have to open the doors to the real world. Nigeria has the fastest growing GSM industry in Africa, set to be the largest by 2012. Communication is essential to development. We have the largest foreign reserve in Africa and we intend to invest it in African development. The Nay sayers are driven by other sentiments that unfortunately deprives one of logical reasoning.

We got another Nigerian on this forum, F-A-N-T-A-S-T-I-C NEWS AND Welcome !:) :) :)


PS: I sent you a message on your personal account

HI NAIJALOVE

We got another Nigerian on this forum, F-A-N-T-A-S-T-I-C NEWS AND Welcome !:) :) :)


PS: I sent you a message on your personal account

Africa is not a country, so stop talking about it like it is. Not all the countries in Europe are rich.

Wow, where did you get this from? I think he was simply telling you that his father is a well traveled man who has been to many parts of Africa. :weirdo:

I have read some of your posts and I am at a loss for words. I am still trying to figure out you alergic reaction to any good news from Africa.

A 20%+ growth in GDP for a nation emerging out of civil war like Angola is great news no matter what way you look at it.

As far as saying that African's are incompetent and unable to manage themselves...I think with views like that you might find a great home in the neo-Nazi movement in Europe, they need poeple like you.

He's a so called white South African, what do you expect?

Anyways, I do feel that Matthias is overreacting like some kind of woman on her monthly and does need to be a little bit realistic . Botswana and the Asian Tigers did not advance because of wishful thinking. The corrupt politicians need to keep their hands out of the cookie jar.

Thanks Matthias. This is an interesting forum. Looking forward to contribute my 2 cents. :)

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=ct20031115114133510S5323206

A murky web of more than 230 sophisticated crime syndicates - many run by foreigners - is choking South Africa.

The Russian mafia, Chinese triads, Nigerian rings and Pakistani gangs are using local criminals as foot soldiers in their transnational criminal networks.

The Institute of Security Studies (ISS) has found that locals are also being used as mules to smuggle diamonds, precious stones, luxury vehicles and drugs in and out of the country.

In an alarming revelation that seems to support a contention that is usually dismissed as xenophobia, the study showed that out of 40 000 to 100 000 Nigerians currently living in South Africa, only 4 000 are in the country legally, and a significant number are involved in drug trafficking, fraud, telephone scams, false documentation and money laundering scams, among others.

Jenni Irish, from the consultancy Injobo Nebandla, who was commissioned by ISS to do the study, said Pakistani syndicates - which also profit from drug trafficking - are the fastest growing crime network in the country. But, said Irish, this does not mean the other syndicates are less dangerous.

"The Chinese triads are highly structured and it doesn't mean because their numbers are fewer they are any less dangerous than the Nigerians or Pakistanis.

"All have their own areas of specialisation which may impact on violent crimes. Drugs have a significant part of many crimes committed in this country," she said.

The triads are involved in the smuggling of gold and diamonds, dealing in endangered species, and counterfeit or stolen goods. They use Taiwanese, Korean and Chinese people to do their illegal transactions.

The study also revealed that the Chinese were responsible for at least 70% of kidnappings in the country.

Russian networks are involved in arms smuggling, fraud, car theft, prostitution and uranium smuggling and, like the Chinese, use hit men to assassinate those who double-cross them.

Almost all these syndicates have legitimate businesses, said Irish, "and have these networks on the side".

Their South African counterparts showed far less sophistication in their criminal activities, concentrating mainly on vehicle hijacking and cash-in-transit heists.

The study showed that while organised crime reigned supreme, corruption within different sectors of business, law enforcement and government departments perpetuated the situation.

Mike Ramagoma, spokesperson for the deputy minister of home affairs, acknowledged that the documentation system was easily penetrated. The Department of Home Affairs has been working closely with police to target corrupt officials internally and those operating illegally in the country.

Captain Ronnie Naidoo, spokesperson for the national police head office, said they were struggling with false documentation.

"We are working with Interpol, SADC regions and cross-border countries to deal with drug trafficking from Pakistan and India."

Police had adopted a new approach in tackling organised crime, said Naidoo.

"We used to take out the runners, now we've replaced that approach with longer investigations in an attempt to identify and capture the kingpins."

South Africans don't appreciate foreign terrorists robbing, kidnapping, killing and raping all over the country.

Disgusting, they shouldn't even allow Russians in South Africa.

Naijalove, I sent you a private message

Muckigfutz, I am not overreacting but I feel unpleasently disturbed by people who only come to unfairly criticize countries which are just taking their first steps towards recovery, That´s all!...and only because these countries are in Africa, it doesn´t mean that they are automatically condemed to fail.

Hirakatashi, we have got tons of these aticles on East europeans invading Germany where I currently live (and they are not Africans!!!) in the German media on a daily basis ....and with the enlargement of the EU, things will only heat up!Moreover, do you want to say that Nigerians or Non-South Africans are all kidnappers or reckless terrorists in South Africa????

In an alarming revelation that seems to support a contention that is usually dismissed as xenophobia, the study showed that out of 40 000 to 100 000 Nigerians currently living in South Africa, only 4 000 are in the country legally, and a SIGNIFICANT number are involved in drug trafficking, fraud, telephone scams, false documentation and money laundering scams, among others.


What is significant? Where does it stop where does it begin? I am a scientist. I want figures, and we can decide what is significant. Again, you have only revealed the tip of the ice-berg of the rampant xenophobia in the South African societal psyche.

I came into the country hoping to contribute my own to the development of Africa. I worked in rural hospitals for 8 years, while I turned down offers in America where I hold a medical license. Many of my patients routinely defualted on payments, some could not even pay in cash, but will bring in food. I worked alongside other Nigerians and Congolese. Many other Nigerians I knew were academicans teaching in Universities.

South Africans don't appreciate foreign terrorists robbing, kidnapping, killing and raping all over the country
What you have put up is ludacris and I doubt if such ridiculous propaganda ever leaves the territory of South Africa. If this is true, a CIVILIZED nation that is besieged by foreign criminals would raise it with the presidents of such nations. To go about labelling whole nationalities in your country as criminals and playing to the fear of your citizens shows how far short of civilzed behavior the elite of your country displays.

mathias all iam doin is pointing out some very real issues and your reaction is very immature and frankly rather pathetic. As you are a student I guess I can understand that. But when you get out into the real world (and also perhaps get an understanding of real worl economics) you will realise that what Iam saying about angola is a very real problem. Why are you so sensitive to me pointing out the structural problems in angola and the fact the it is not experiencing the kind of growth it needs to succeed long term. I for one have actually put forward some policies it could adopt in order tyo gain growth (because oh yes silly me: that is actually my JOB!!!) whereas you seem to post ecomomic articles with NO understanding of their meaning. And then run crying to the race/colonialism comfort blanket when someone tries to explain the economics behind what you post. GROW UP.

Mike2000, we do seem to talk on cross purpose at times. Instead of giving me instructions on "my growing of age" or on countries which I do have an academic and/or a personal attachment to/knowledge of , you should just step aside for a moment and reflect on what you are uttering! FOR THE LAST TIME: I have said that Angola emerged from 35 years of war and hundreds of years of foreign oppression, it is learning to grow up without the "kind" help of the international community and so far it is doing well considering its short duration of peace. (you might be writing reports on countries but my father who also travels to Angola told me the complete opposite of what you are saying and my father as well as his friends/businesspartners are not idiots)..Let´s be more downs to earth. I do appreciate your advice and your work but why do you start to throw Angola, Nigeria as well as all the other African countries into the dustbin SO EARLY? Angola´s development is still to fresh to be brushed aside.
Angola has currently other focus areas to concentrate its energy upon than to masterfully fulfill all the four aspects you pointed out (even some of the so called newly industrialising countries have problems to fulfill them entirely). One can´t look for gold if one does not have the tools to search for it! Angola has to start with the basics first (your measurement of scale is too high for the moment)....if that is done, Angola has to start to look at the points you mentioned....(but the people in governement and beyond are aware of that already).
Moreover, it is really insulting that you say that I am not aware of what I am posting given the fact that I am an academic (should I go on posting solely on war, Aids and hunger in Africa, is that what you want to hear?). Why can´t we just draw people´s attention to positive news which comes out of Africa? (the South African forum as most of the other forums are doing that as well). Are other Africans not entitled to do it?

So please Mike2000, I want to be friends with you. We can interact on a more fruitful basis than the one we embarked upon, unfortunately. :)

Naijalove, I sent you a private message

Muckigfutz, I am not overreacting but I feel unpleasently disturbed by people who only come to unfairly criticize countries which are just taking their first steps towards recovery, That´s all!...and only because these countries are in Africa, it doesn´t mean that they are automatically condemed to fail.


I am only saying this because you were boasting about how Nigeria has such a high GDP of 99 billion, when naturally so since it has a high population, however that is not even a good fact, being that Nigeria has 150 million people.

Muckingfutz, I was not boasting about Nigeria´s GDP. Happiness has nothing to do with being boastful .(why do some people like to twist my words on this forum?)..I am just happy that Nigeria´s GDP (as that of other African countries improves) improve from where it was in 2000 (around 40 Billion for Nigeria). One canssee that the country advances . It is a start, one shouldn´t stop there, of course. That´s all!

I am not throwing angola into the dustbin I am merely pointing out what needs to be done in order for it to climb out of the dustbin that years of civil war has put it in! After all africa will never develop to its full potential unless it introduces SUSTAINABLE economic policies that are not reliant on commodity prices. And in this thread I have suggested what some of those policies might be. I am not saying your father is stupid but if you read any report on angola by a banking group or an economist then you will see that they share my concerns. Africa is littered with countries that enjoyed a commodity boom only for it to end in tears. I am just worried that might happen with angola. Suggesting positive moves a government might take in order to rectify the situation is hardly writing off angola but instead it is making a practical contribution to a thread on the angolan economy.

All mike and the rest of us are saying, is yes be positive, but not be blind. 20% growth sounds fantastic, but even if it was 50% growth its still an irrelevant number due to the fact that its a commodity such as oil and how much effect is 20% growth actually having on the day to day lives of the people? i doubt any! Growth is only an indicator of success IF it directly alters the landscape, livelihoods and prospects of the people. In this case it is not. A huge proportion of the money garnered from this oil boom is going to foreignors that have the skills to manage and develop these projects. The number of South African, European and American firms making billions is incredible. These are the people making most of the money. WHY? Cos the local population do not have the skills to do it. Is the government using its reciepts to change this, mike and myself will say no, you will say yes...no point arguing on that we will never reach a common answer.

All we are saying is that growth needs to be managed, and revenues pushed into areas that will make the economy stable. The country needs to diversify, for besides oil what do they have going for themselves?

I seriously doubt that the guy in Angola feels as optimistic as you expats feel...

And regards Nigerians in South Africa...

I have no doubt that their are good nigerians here that aim only to better themselves in south africa, the land of percieved opportunity for all africans. I do not doubt that for second. However, sadly the ones that do cause havoc, run the drug and kidnapping rings and the like give the rest a terribly bad name. so you should not be harsh on us for not wanting most of them in this country, cos alot of our social problems at present stem from a total onslaught of foreigners into this country. There are probably close on 3 million Africans living in south africa, thats alot for us to handle.

Mike2000/dysan1, I will reply to it later, maybe tomorrow because I am pressed for time prsently.

All mike and the rest of us are saying, is yes be positive, but not be blind. 20% growth sounds fantastic, but even if it was 50% growth its still an irrelevant number due to the fact that its a commodity such as oil and how much effect is 20% growth actually having on the day to day lives of the people? i doubt any! Growth is only an indicator of success IF it directly alters the landscape, livelihoods and prospects of the people. In this case it is not. A huge proportion of the money garnered from this oil boom is going to foreignors that have the skills to manage and develop these projects. The number of South African, European and American firms making billions is incredible. These are the people making most of the money. WHY? Cos the local population do not have the skills to do it. Is the government using its reciepts to change this, mike and myself will say no, you will say yes...no point arguing on that we will never reach a common answer.

All we are saying is that growth needs to be managed, and revenues pushed into areas that will make the economy stable. The country needs to diversify, for besides oil what do they have going for themselves?

I seriously doubt that the guy in Angola feels as optimistic as you expats feel...

The growth is post-war reconstruction and will last 6 years maximum, before it levels down to 10% for 15 years and then 5% for 25 years. I never got over excited about it. But it deserves commendation that things are being done.

And regards Nigerians in South Africa...

I have no doubt that their are good nigerians here that aim only to better themselves in south africa, the land of percieved opportunity for all africans. handle.

Stop right there. You didnt just say that. You know your country has the toughest employment policies when it comes to foreign black africans. Particularly those from African countries that fought apartheid the most. Vitually no african person I knew got employed in the private sector. We all worked in academia or hospitals. Those who opened businesses had african customers. And those who needed to survive went into drug trade. To reinforce my point, the Ministry of Health has just put forward a policy to stop bringing in African doctors, and not to renew contracts of existing African doctors in South Africa. I am so grateful I left the country before all this mess. In the meantime, Cuban doctors are still being brought in. Indeed a land of opportunity for all Africans!!

I do not doubt that for second. However, sadly the ones that do cause havoc, run the drug and kidnapping rings and the like give the rest a terribly bad name. so you should not be harsh on us for not wanting most of them in this country, cos alot of our social problems at present stem from a total onslaught of foreigners into this country. There are probably close on 3 million Africans living in south africa, thats alot for us to

The free movement policy in West Africa has made West Africa the most mobile regional block, second only to Europe. And none of these West African countries have a GDP the size of South Africa's.

we have enough unemployment as it is and the last thing we need is more unskilled immigrants. I welcome all skilled people from africa to come here and the min of healths attitude is a disgrace but the vast majority of african immigrants are unskilled and it the the poor black south africans who suffer from our pourus borders the most and who are most angry about it. I dont know if it is a true stat but according to jackie selebi our police boss here in SA 60% of crime in joburg is by people from outside of SA. That is a disgrace.

we have enough unemployment as it is and the last thing we need is more unskilled immigrants. I welcome all skilled people from africa to come here and the min of healths attitude is a disgrace but the vast majority of african immigrants are unskilled and it the the poor black south africans who suffer from our pourus borders the most and who are most angry about it. I dont know if it is a true stat but according to jackie selebi our police boss here in SA 60% of crime in joburg is by people from outside of SA. That is a disgrace.
Agreed. Low skill levels and involvement in crimes tend to be mostly immigrants from Zambia, Mozambique, Zimbabwe and rest of SADEC area. My house help was Zimbabwean. The ones from farther north tend to be either more educated than other african immigrants, or involved in more high profile crimes like drugs. It is the percentage involvement that I fail to agree with.

However, despite all I have said, South Africans (whites, blacks, indians) who are indeed cosmopolitan in their outlook tend to be better than the Americans on the average. Americans are another story for another day!!

I agree that the percentages are difficult to pin down, and I tend to not believe anything I hear from the SAPS or our ministry of safety and security. But I think it is also true that there is a large and growing west african involvement in organised crime ie: drugs/hijacking rings etc etc. Or at least that is the overwealming perception of south africans of all races.

naijalove, i think you misinterpretted my statement. when i said

"I have no doubt that their are good nigerians here that aim only to better themselves in south africa, the land of percieved opportunity for all africans."

I was meaning that people outside of south africa, in the rest of africa often see south africa as the place that will filfull their dreams and make them rich. only once here do they realise that 1000's of other people thought the same thing and they are all fighting for the same pie. i NEVER said that South africa is the land of promise. Just thought that needed to be cleared up. if we cld change that perception, then hopefully we wouldnt be swamped with all these uneducated low skilled people, when we have enough of a skills problem with our own people.

WoW~!

Hi Mike2000/Dysan1

Growing sustainably should always be in the interest of a country, no doubt about that! But Angola has oil as well as other minerals which are capturing the interest of the world. Moreover, it is experincing a post-war reconstruction boom (even Germany experinced for some years of double digit growth after the war ended the so-called“Wirtschaftswunder/German economic miracle”).

But as for Angola it is also experiencing A LOT OF GROWTH OUTSIDE THE OIL SECTOR (construction and agriculture). Double-digit growth will remain high for at least the next 5 years. Luckily due to oil Angola is given the chance to rebuild relatively quickly without oil nothing it would have been more difficult. The government has a “development plan”, the first one is centred on REINTEGRATION DEMINING AND RECONSTRUCTION. (but don´t forget that Angola is less dependable on oil as an income bas than some of the ultra-rich Gulf States). Something which tinkles me pink is that some people blindly praised the “second generation tiger economies” (Thiland, Indonesia and Malaysia) while they start to condem Angola. As for Botwana, what will he country do if the mines are empty? Is Botswana really diversified?
Unemployement is still a huge problem in Botswana and incomes are very unequally distributed, same for Namibia....but people blindly shower these two countries with praises endlessly (especially Botswana). Why is the HIV rate the highest in Africa (40%!!!!) although the country is merely inhabited by 1.5 million people, never experienced war and had a smooth decolonisation process? Why is the mineral rich country debating on reintroducing school fees although it gets billions from its sell of diamonds annually? THESE ARE QUESTIONS WHICH NEED TO BE ASKED when we really want to be critical WITH ALL (!!!!) countries and not just with those which got out of a war that ravaged the country for 35 years?
As to the second generation tiger economies (which I do respect) , one can´t deny the fact that Thailand´s economic boom of the mid 80´s to the late 90´s was primarily driven by foreign (Chinese) investment (although everybody praised that country while condemining africa as the “hopeless continent”). Investors withdrew their money in 1997/98 and the bubble burst with the consequences we all know. The boom was chiefly driven by many Chinese who settled in thailand and controlled the economy.
As for the expats in Angola: it is normal that Angola needs a lot of expatriates (especially in the oil and real estate sector)...but is the case really different to many other oil rich countries in the Gulf (Saudia Arabia, Oman, Kuwait)? And doesn´t South Africa need expatriates as well? Some time back I read that around 70 000 Germans are working in South Africa in all fields throughout the country.
Angola as every other country in the world is also building up national companies. IT TAKES TIME
ROME WAS NOT BUILT IN A DAY!
:)

Hi Mike2000/Dysan1

Growing sustainably should always be in the interest of a country, no doubt about that! But Angola has oil as well as other minerals which are capturing the interest of the world. Moreover, it is experincing a post-war reconstruction boom (even Germany experinced for some years of double digit growth after the war ended the so-called“Wirtschaftswunder/German economic miracle”).

But as for Angola it is also experiencing A LOT OF GROWTH OUTSIDE THE OIL SECTOR (construction and agriculture). Double-digit growth will remain high for at least the next 5 years. Luckily due to oil Angola is given the chance to rebuild relatively quickly without oil nothing it would have been more difficult. The government has a “development plan”, the first one is centred on REINTEGRATION DEMINING AND RECONSTRUCTION. (but don´t forget that Angola is less dependable on oil as an income bas than some of the ultra-rich Gulf States). Something which tinkles me pink is that some people blindly praised the “second generation tiger economies” (Thiland, Indonesia and Malaysia) while they start to condem Angola. As for Botwana, what will he country do if the mines are empty? Is Botswana really diversified?
Unemployement is still a huge problem in Botswana and incomes are very unequally distributed, same for Namibia....but people blindly shower these two countries with praises endlessly (especially Botswana). Why is the HIV rate the highest in Africa (40%!!!!) although the country is merely inhabited by 1.5 million people, never experienced war and had a smooth decolonisation process? Why is the mineral rich country debating on reintroducing school fees although it gets billions from its sell of diamonds annually? THESE ARE QUESTIONS WHICH NEED TO BE ASKED when we really want to be critical WITH ALL (!!!!) countries and not just with those which got out of a war that ravaged the country for 35 years?
As to the second generation tiger economies (which I do respect) , one can´t deny the fact that Thailand´s economic boom of the mid 80´s to the late 90´s was primarily driven by foreign (Chinese) investment (although everybody praised that country while condemining africa as the “hopeless continent”). Investors withdrew their money in 1997/98 and the bubble burst with the consequences we all know. The boom was chiefly driven by many Chinese who settled in thailand and controlled the economy.
As for the expats in Angola: it is normal that Angola needs a lot of expatriates (especially in the oil and real estate sector)...but is the case really different to many other oil rich countries in the Gulf (Saudia Arabia, Oman, Kuwait)? And doesn´t South Africa need expatriates as well? Some time back I read that around 70 000 Germans are working in South Africa in all fields throughout the country.
Angola as every other country in the world is also building up national companies. IT TAKES TIME
ROME WAS NOT BUILT IN A DAY!
:)

Matthias, read my post in the African Economy Thread.

:cheers: :cheers: