There is no question Pen Equity has done a second rate job developing that incredible corner, and if they have the slightest lick of common sense they will be kicking themselves now watching what is happening at Yonge/Bloor. In any case, despite its failings, the Square itself is a marvellous success. I love Times Square as much as anyone, but it really doesn't have much different in the way of signage than Dundas Square.

I would have to disagree with the last part of your post. Not that I think a comparison to Times Square is even relevant but there is more than just the NASDAQ curvey video screen (which is actually part of the building with holes for windows, now that's creative). There's the Coke neon light sign, there's the huge Virgin neon sign, the ESPN zone curvey screens, the LG neon box, neon McDonalds signs, Neon Toyota sings, and video screens on top of video screens with a ton more neon objects. There is a lot of backlit stuff, but none of it looks out of place because size, shapes, screens, neon and backlit are so mixed together.

Again, I'm not saying we should compare Dundas to Time, but more forethought and a better mix of signage would have gone a long way.

Good point,TB. We tend to evaluate a lot of what we have based on some imagined version of what exists elsewhere.

the perimeter of times square is not technically a square...its a rectangle. from 47th street to 42nd when you include broadway and 7th ave and the medians. i've been there for new years before when the traffic is shut off. when those two lanes are shut down for 1 million people its a whole different level. its truly a square in this case.

The inside is just as bad. (from what little I've seen) I have not seen one single part of this building that is done to an acceptable level. Even the things that should be great, like the huge video screen, they manage to do something to screw it up. It's like Pen Equity is run by complete incompetents. I know we shouldn't compare apples to oranges but I went on Youtube and searched for videos of Times Square, yesterday, just to see how the Yanks do it, and the difference is HUGE! There are so many huge video screens, along with colourful neon and all kinds of interesting, cool smaller signs.

Of course, this is Toronto and I was not expecting Tmes Square 2 but I was expecting this complex to at least come half way up to the hype and BS of the talk and renderings. Why make a rendering that looks half decent, then change it and make something of such low standards?



Agree with you. In fact, this is a brand new development, it should be better than Times Square. Usually standards get continually raised. When you build from scratch you have far greater opportunity to raise the bar. That this didn't even match Times Square on so many levels constitutes a failure.

Agree with you. In fact, this is a brand new development, it should be better than Times Square. Usually standards get continually raised. When you build from scratch you have far greater opportunity to raise the bar. That this didn't even match Times Square on so many levels constitutes a failure.

How can something brand new even hope to be as good as something that has been given time to grow organically? And how can a sinlge building be superior to a whole intersection?

Of course, this is Toronto and I was not expecting Tmes Square 2


Actually, this is Toronto...we can, and have been capable of setting the bar for things when we set our minds to it....there's really no excuse for Toronto not to produce the best.

Times Square is a larger physical area, and it's "stuff" is higher. It's just "more" of something, rather than necessarily "better". And Times Square didn't happen in a year or two (some might say it isn't as impressive as it was in its heyday)...let's give Toronto a wee break on that one at least.





KGB

How can something brand new even hope to be as good as something that has been given time to grow organically?

Things that have grown organically tend to work very well because they have had time to evolve, but by their nature, certain limitations exist that don't exist when you can build from scratch. A blank canvas always offers the opportunity for much more creativity and many more options are obviously available.

Refurbishments of existing structures never offer the same possibilities that building from scratch does. Why do you think it is often deemed better to demo than to renovate? I'm not suggesting that new buildings will always surpass something that has evolved over time, but that the opportunity for that to be attained is optimized.

This type of development lends itself to improvement because of the nature of it. It is very reliant on technological advancements in lighting, video, and multimedia in general. The fact that structures in New York that were not initially designed to accomodate this technology, but have been continually updated, is better in your mind than a 21st century modern design especially designed for this purpose IS a failure.

I'm glad we have this development, but they didn't deliver the visually superior product that today's technology and engineering advancements should have afforded them. It's good, but should have been much better executed.

You're still a youngin Dino, lol.

1000! :tongue2:

I invite people on their next trip to NYC to have a close, perhaps more critical look at things next time they hit Times Square. Look at it with the same level of criticism you bestow upon Dundas Square, and be honest about it. There is a lot of garish tackiness and junk around that area, so to remember it all as being vastly superior strikes me as unrealistic. As fun as it will be to stand and gawk up at Times Square, perhaps it won't be quite the majestic thrill you felt when you first saw it, and Yonge/Dundas was still Cheapo's The World's Cheapest Shoestore, and a Baskin Robbins, and a Licks Burger joint. As for the architecture around Times Square, a lot of it is forgettable. Ok, one last visit to Times Square. Why, you say? Because I honestly think it is time to jog people's memories just a tad with a bit of a reality check. These are the last two I will bore you with... I give you the Applebees, the Cinnabon, the cheesy new Disneyfied Hilton, the Starbucks, the AMC Theatres, and the HMV for your viewing pleasure:

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/2e22b349.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/2a3527d9.jpg

There is no question Pen Equity has done a second rate job developing that incredible corner, and if they have the slightest lick of common sense they will be kicking themselves now watching what is happening at Yonge/Bloor. In any case, despite its failings, the Square itself is a marvellous success. I love Times Square as much as anyone, but it really doesn't have much different in the way of signage than Dundas Square.

... I disagree with your assertion that Pen Equity has done a second rate job. It's a start. This is Y&D version 2.0.

Cities take hundreds of years to form, Toronto Life Square is just one step in a centuries long process of making this area a world landmark.

I guess I look at the building as a temporary building. In 40 - 50 years it will be altered, and improved.

Take Yonge and Bay - the HBC centre is a flop. It doesn't do much to aid the street. But it helped to create the intersection. And we'll progress from there.


The most wonderful thing about Toronto is it's finally "built" - now the fun can begin. The ROM, AGO, and O'Keeth Centre are great example of what happens in a Finished city, we finally have the time to touch up the paint.

The signage wall of the Metropolis Building (bulldozing right past using the Toronto Lite moniker) on the South is an excellent idea.. it is the crowning touch on all four sides of the square.... but the actual building itself really could have been so much more. In any case, the final result of the square is to stand in the middle at night and look up and around in awe.... nothing succeeds like excess, and this Square packs a major punch! As you say, it is still a work in progress and will add and develop over the years.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/2e22b349.jpg



thats 42nd street. not really in the square....

call me tacky, but i'd kill for that kind of lighting at dundas square!

In my mind, 42nd Street is part of The Square area. Don't forget that the Times Square subway station entrance is actually on 42nd Street. There is, as we all know, no actual square, so it is just the area close to the v intersection, in much the same way as Yonge Street is part of the Dundas Square area even up to Gerrard. To me, on Broadway, Time Square very loosely goes from 46th to 41st, but I might be stretching that too far.

I LOVED 42nd Street back in the 70's, and was royally pissed when Giuliani scrubbed it all clean and the Disneyfication of the area began. People here might think of Times Square as having evolved naturally over a long period of time, but the Giuliani crew single handedly changed the face of it during the cleanup.



call me tacky, but i'd kill for that kind of lighting at dundas square!

Chew gottit mang! Chew Tacky!! :)
but yeah, it is fun in that over the top Wow Factor way. Wakes the touristos up, that is for sure.

^ thats what i'm hoping for at dundas square. just that WOW factor. that 24/7 wow factor. i dont mind the render. that everyone is critisizin.....but the signs arent in stone right guys? it will get better

And, it is not even finished yet.. will be a ball of activity next summer.

thats 42nd street. not really in the square....

call me tacky, but I'd kill for that kind of lighting at Dundas square!

Call me tacky too, lol but I like the neon and all that colour. Metropolis has no colour, it needs lots more colourful NEON!!! Neon is not just advertising material, it can be art. This was not supposed to be ordinary advertising, on an ordinary corner. This was supposed to be our big WOW corner, the one spot in the city where advertising was allowed to go CRAZY and yes, a little tacky. We were told to expect something spectacular, even from Kyle Rae, and we get, for the most part, so far, ORDINARY! Yes, I am UNDERWHELMED.

You don't see it in those pics but in the video I saw, there are lots of smaller, interesting neon signs and creative use of lighting that is not in Dundas Square. Look at how much better and brighter the neon Future Shop sign on the side is, compared to the red Future Shop sign on the front. Do you see even one thing on Metropolis that you think is creative, innovative or impressive?

With all the new advances in lighting and computers they could have really tried some new and wonderful ways to add WOW to this complex and yet, they give us something below the standard. I say if your going to do something, DO IT RIGHT! Will it change and improve? Maybe in 20 years but who the hell wants to wait 20 years. :ohno: lol I'll be in some gay, old folks home chasing cute male attendants by then.

I love neon, too, and it would be AMAZING to see more of it at Dundas Square (the huge round LG sign is all neon, but is wasted because most of it is white neon and some of the older installations are neon, like Zanzibar) , but in honesty 95% of the signage in Times Square is exactly the same type as here. Backlit plastic boxes (like the Cinnabon, Starbucks, HMV signage) and some top lit vinyl photograph signs, etc... ) . That is the way they do most signage nowadays, everywhere. I much prefer creative neon signs, but they cost a fortune, thus the cheaper back lit stuff rules the world. There is some creativity coming in with Trivision signs, etc... The bright fuscia- reddish tinged photo of 42nd Street above that I posted looks neony and garish because of the white balance that the guy chose for his camera to take the picture, but trust me most of these signs are the same type as Dundas Square. Personally I don't think there is any shortage of "colour" at Yonge/Dundas, but maybe we are just open to seeing more stimulation when we are on vacation than when we are schlepping down the streets of our home town. ;)

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/5e6a338c.jpg

and Yonge/Dundas has one aspect that Times Square has been completely, utterly scrubbed clean of..
(thanks to the puritanical Giuliani) any type of Hot Delicious Girls, or any other remotely naughty stuff have been completely eradicated from 42nd St.. it is now a squeaky-clean family-oriented place that you can take the kids after going to church on a Sunday that is every bit as wholesome as going to Disneyland. Yonge Street has been able to hang on to some of its original gritty character:

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/6199153d.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/e388e4b7.jpg

If you want unlimited colour, you can fiddle with your white balance, like the guy did who took that 42nd street photo. Tada! instant neon colour:

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/fc0c5ac2.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/3f4bc80a.jpg

but je digress.. back to reality:

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/bd987eb1.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/d57bcc7d.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/654d7ca3.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/881f77d3.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/91f3554a.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/f129f157.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/b40a6793.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/2c4a76da.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/b732ebcc.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/9652046b.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/30667bcc.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/184c992a.jpg

Here are some shots on Yonge south of Dundas, looking north at Yonge/Dundas:

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/7fa7469b.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/4a65c092.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/65343c0c.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/5a43e4c2.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/7dd41246.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/2f00a3fe.jpg






Times Square is mythical in our minds... the Great White Way has been part of our collective
conscience for the past century. We have all gone and stood gaping upward at it all like some rube
who just fell off the turnip truck. Those are shoes far too big to ever be filled, and I don't think anyone should lose any sleep trying to. When we go on vacation, we are open to fun and stimuli, probably a bit drunk and having an amazing time. We don't have to go to work the next morning, and above all we are more forgiving... we don't see the tackiness of other cities, we only see the good parts. So, Yonge Dundas is what it is. It is not Times Square, and no matter what it ever becomes, people will never let it equal Times Square, so we shouldn't even bother. Dundas Square is our square, with all its warts and disappointments. It has its own flavour , character and differences, and that is ok! I think we can kind of let go of our selves and start enjoying it without worrying if it is bigger or better than TS.. cuz it ain't.

The only difference for me is that Times Square is much bigger and ALOT more people...Dundas square is smaller and dead

Dead? Have you visited Dundas Square at all this past summer?

I'm a bit gobsmacked at that one. "Dead" is the last description I would give Dundas Square.

HAHAH As soon as I saw that comment I knew T/B was gonna have a field day.

yea dundas square is dead all right. its only the busiest intersection in canada? lol

Yeah you'd think a place so empty wouldn't be able to sustain any advertisements, but last time I was there I definitely saw a few.

i haven't really seen much traffic around there personally, only during special events is it packed. the square is usually empty and...grey. i live a five-minute walk away too so i see it quite often. i'd say on average it gets "busy" for maybe an hour or two a day.

i haven't really seen much traffic around there personally, only during special events is it packed. the square is usually empty and...grey. i live a five-minute walk away too so i see it quite often. i'd say on average it gets "busy" for maybe an hour or two a day.

Its busy every time im there, thought it has been quite dead the last two weeks.

The only difference for me is that Times Square is much bigger and ALOT more people...Dundas square is smaller and dead

I guess u haven't been to Times sq at 4am, it's not very busy.

I remember being there in the summer in 2003 at 4am, the mcdonalds was closed and only a few places were open. I know it sounds crazy but there had to be no more than 50 people out.... lol.. the city does sleep at some point I found out.

The only difference for me is that Times Square is much bigger and ALOT more people...Dundas square is smaller and dead

Yeah! Even Cincinnatti is more crowded! :)

I guess u haven't been to Times sq at 4am, it's not very busy.

I remember being there in the summer in 2003 at 4am, the mcdonalds was closed and only a few places were open. I know it sounds crazy but there had to be no more than 50 people out.... lol.. the city does sleep at some point I found out.


Exactly! Well, the Dundas Square I rode my bike past every day this past summer has been booming. I've got tons of summer pix of the Square but at this point don't feel like bothering to post any more.

HAHAH As soon as I saw that comment I knew T/B was gonna have a field day.


LOL!! Either that or fall back in shock!!:lol:

I forgot to mention earlier that some Adidas signage has gone up on the windows along both Dundas and Yonge St. The windows have been tinted so you cant see inside anymore and it says "Coming Soon". Im guessing they will be the second tenant to open and judging by the amount of work going on inside... it should be around Christmas or early January.

The only difference for me is that Times Square is much bigger and ALOT more people...Dundas square is smaller and dead

Oh man...I've heard dumb stuff before. But this takes the cake.

Times square appears to have more neon than Dundas

Phase 2 would absolutely be the west side of Yonge north of Dundas. Pizza Pizza, Sunrise, even the souvenir shop would need updated facades.

Times square appears to have more neon than Dundas

Phase 2 would absolutely be the west side of Yonge north of Dundas. Pizza Pizza, Sunrise, even the souvenir shop would need updated facades.

Historically, NYC probably had as much neon as any city in the world, around Times Square. There still are some of the old neon signs up, and quite likely there are more than in DS. However, neon signs are increasingly rare today... they represent a big investment, and they represent a semi-permanent sign, which most signage nowadays is not. I love neon, and find it very beautiful, but the fact of life is that most signage going up these days is the same everywhere. That huge round LG neon sign at the corner of Dundas and Yonge must have cost a fortune... too bad most of the logo is white as it is a waste. My whole point is, Times Square is not as radically different for signage as most people here seem to be under the impression. And if people are going by the pictures I posted, there is not a lot of real neon in those photos (the Ruby's sign on the left has three strips of neon under it, and the sign on the extreme right hand side that shows a letter B appears also to be neon); the reddish tinged photograph of 42nd street looks entirely neony at a glance, but as I said that is the white balance of the camera. A closer inspection will reveal box signs and plastic backlit.

In the winter there aren't many people out on the streets..anywhere in Toronto..they're all hiding in PATH

Outdoor traffic goes down in every Northern city in the winter, including New York, London, Montreal and any other city in the Northern Hemisphere. That is normal. NYC will always have more people on its streets, as it is three to four times the size of Toronto.

I've concluded that ale26 is simply not serious...and therefore engaging his stupid remarks pointless.

If there is nothing interesting to be said about the thread topic at the moment, can we go back to discussing my audio system instead? I was just listening to Holly Cole's Don't Smoke in Bed cd, and I must say, 300B SET amps were custon designed for her voice.

Oh yea...I'm at home really, really fuking sick too...so if you wanted to shower me with whatever brand of sympathy you like...don't be shy.





KGB

Outdoor traffic goes down in every Northern city in the winter, including New York, London, Montreal and any other city in the Northern Hemisphere. That is normal. NYC will always have more people on its streets, as it is three to four times the size of Toronto.

But even in Manhattan I've walked on some pretty deserted streets, even in summer. Abut 5 years ago I walked from South Street Seaport to Greenwich village, alone at around 6 or 7 pm, on a summer weekday. At first, there were people all around, and then before I even thought about it, I realized I was the only person in sight. I got a bit nervous when I noticed a really rough looking guy walking my way and there was not a single person around nor an open store or restaurant I could zip into. I started walking really fast to get to anyplace where there were stores or people or something that made me feel secure. lol

Also at night, by the United Nations, the streets were totally empty around 11pm. I have a video of me walking all alone along that street, with nobody around, so not all of Manhattan is 24/7 action. Besides New York and Montreal, Toronto is pretty lively at night. During the day in summer, Dundas Square is full of people and action. Almost every weekend has something going on.

^^ absolutely. People have it in their mind that NYC is 24-7 on every street, 365 days per year. I've seen in past threads where people moan that the business district in Toronto is dead on weekends unlike New York, and it makes me realize they have never strolled down Wall Street on a Sunday afternoon.

In the winter there aren't many people out on the streets..anywhere in Toronto..they're all hiding in PATH

Canadians are tough! :) Even on the coldest days of the year, you will still find plenty of people walking on Ste. Catherine St. and Yonge St. (and many with no hat or gloves lol) Hell, I lived in Montreal during that ice storm and people still went out and had fun. People still walked the icy streets and The bars were still packed. :banana:

Canadians are tough! :) Even on the coldest days of the year, you will still find plenty of people walking on Ste. Catherine St. and Yonge St. (and many with no hat or gloves lol) Hell, I lived in Montreal during that ice storm and people still went out and had fun. People still walked the icy streets and The bars were still packed. :banana:

see KGB's post above.

see KGB's post above.

Oui :yes:

I've concluded that ale26 is simply not serious...and therefore engaging his stupid remarks pointless.

If there is nothing interesting to be said about the thread topic at the moment, can we go back to discussing my audio system instead? I was just listening to Holly Cole's Don't Smoke in Bed cd, and I must say, 300B SET amps were custon designed for her voice.

Oh yea...I'm at home really, really fuking sick too...so if you wanted to shower me with whatever brand of sympathy you like...don't be shy.





KGB

Take a couple drinks of a good brandy that'll fix ya. Or at least make you forget that you were sick

In the winter there aren't many people out on the streets..anywhere in Toronto..they're all hiding in PATH

PATH covers everywhere in Toronto? Neat. I was unaware of the fact.

Seriously though, it does detract somewhat from the streetlife in the CBD during rush hours, but the constantly busy areas stay busy throughout the year, as people still need and want to do shit and go places, which are not available through PATH.

Walking to Dundas station today, I detoured to the entrance from Dundas Square and was surprised to see people in the square with this weather. Many were just criss crossing it to get to the other side, but there were actually a lot of people sitting down on the chairs at tables. Weren't the tables and chairs gone around this time last year?

On another note, the stairs leading down to Dundas station in front of TLS are in the process of being ripped apart!

Those ads a few years old actually, lol.

^^ are you talking about my pics? Lots of them were taken last year, before Metropolis-Toronto-Lite was up. ..others were taken thru the summer.

But even in Manhattan I've walked on some pretty deserted streets, even in summer. Abut 5 years ago I walked from South Street Seaport to Greenwich village, alone at around 6 or 7 pm, on a summer weekday. At first, there were people all around, and then before I even thought about it, I realized I was the only person in sight. I got a bit nervous when I noticed a really rough looking guy walking my way and there was not a single person around nor an open store or restaurant I could zip into. I started walking really fast to get to anyplace where there were stores or people or something that made me feel secure. lol

Also at night, by the United Nations, the streets were totally empty around 11pm. I have a video of me walking all alone along that street, with nobody around, so not all of Manhattan is 24/7 action. Besides New York and Montreal, Toronto is pretty lively at night. During the day in summer, Dundas Square is full of people and action. Almost every weekend has something going on.

I've been in a similar situation. I was walking with a friend down 8th Ave. trying to find a place for dinner around 9-10PM on a September weeknight. Once we passed the Port Authority bus terminal (@42nd) into the Garment District everything was closed and locked up and the streetlights were turned out. I mean it looked like some forgotten or abandonned part of the city. The place was deserted save for the few cars whipping up 8th. It wasn't until we reached Penn station (@34th) that we saw lights and people. We were thinking, had anything happened to us back there no one would have found us until the morning!

The Garment District has this image to tourist of lively and colourful if a little gritty, kinda like our Fashion District. Big surprise when the sun goes down. At least in the Fashion District they've got bars/clubs/restaurants thrown in to keep the place going overnight.

I've been in a similar situation. I was walking with a friend down 8th Ave. trying to find a place for dinner around 9-10PM on a September weeknight. Once we passed the Port Authority bus terminal (@42nd) into the Garment District everything was closed and locked up and the streetlights were turned out. I mean it looked like some forgotten or abandonned part of the city. The place was deserted save for the few cars whipping up 8th. It wasn't until we reached Penn station (@34th) that we saw lights and people. We were thinking, had anything happened to us back there no one would have found us until the morning!

The Garment District has this image to tourist of lively and colourful if a little gritty, kinda like our Fashion District. Big surprise when the sun goes down. At least in the Fashion District they've got bars/clubs/restaurants thrown in to keep the place going overnight.

I think there are lots of parts of Manhattan that are deserted at night. I was trying to find a bar in the meat packing district and it was dark and deserted. Also around the top part of Central Park/lower Harlem it's deserted after dark. I took a walk all around Central Park and after I went north of the Museum of New York, my brother and I were virtually alone, until we got to near the Dakota on the other side of the park.

Forget NYC, check out Boston, Miami, Chicago, Baltimore, Washington, Cleavland, Pittsburgh, Tampa, Detroit and Philadelphia at night and you will see all the downtowns of those cities are DEAD after dark. (even in tourist season) I saw more people walking around downtown Vancouver, after midnight, in December, that all those places put together in summer. I'm serious, when I was in all those major cities walking around at night, I was the only one around. Downtown Vancouver used to be so dead 20 years ago but when I was there last year, the downtown streets were busy all night. (and I was out until 430 am)

I guess u haven't been to Times sq at 4am, it's not very busy.

I remember being there in the summer in 2003 at 4am, the mcdonalds was closed and only a few places were open. I know it sounds crazy but there had to be no more than 50 people out.... lol.. the city does sleep at some point I found out.

I have been in Times Sq. by myself. Nobody else. Well, except for a cop. and it was around 8AM.

I can't say that for Dundas Sq. (but am not suggesting that it is busier).

New York is a great place, but it can't live up to its myths.

I was amazed at how quiet that city is between 6AM and 10AM (and I am talking about Broadway, 5th Ave, Park Ave, Avenue of the Maricas, etc...).

I was trying to find a bar in the meat packing district and it was dark and deserted.

Should have been there with me 20 years ago! We could have popped into
the Lure! ;) But also love the French bistro there called Pastis... one of my fave places.

I have been in Times Sq. by myself. Nobody else. Well, except for a cop. and it was around 8AM.

I can't say that for Dundas Sq. (but am not suggesting that it is busier).

New York is a great place, but it can't live up to its myths.

I was amazed at how quiet that city is between 6AM and 10AM (and I am talking about Broadway, 5th Ave, Park Ave, Avenue of the Maricas, etc...).

that is so true. For some reason we all enjoy making myths when we travel. Sometimes we don't even rationalize it, or even admit it to ourselves, but a kind of self-aggrandization kicks in and we pad the story a bit to make a city fit the bill we have in our mind. I have heard people describe a city, say "City A" and in my mind I do a double take, and I have to ask myself:"WTF? Are you talking about the "City A" that I know?" . Dundas Square has a tough job to combat the "idea" of Times Square, thus it should just never even bother to try.

I think there are lots of parts of Manhattan that are deserted at night. I was trying to find a bar in the meat packing district and it was dark and deserted. Also around the top part of Central Park/lower Harlem it's deserted after dark. I took a walk all around Central Park and after I went north of the Museum of New York, my brother and I were virtually alone, until we got to near the Dakota on the other side of the park.

Forget NYC, check out Boston, Miami, Chicago, Baltimore, Washington, Cleavland, Pittsburgh, Tampa, Detroit and Philadelphia at night and you will see all the downtowns of those cities are DEAD after dark. (even in tourist season) I saw more people walking around downtown Vancouver, after midnight, in December, that all those places put together in summer. I'm serious, when I was in all those major cities walking around at night, I was the only one around. Downtown Vancouver used to be so dead 20 years ago but when I was there last year, the downtown streets were busy all night. (and I was out until 430 am)

Honestly though, all cites have areas that get a bit deserted at night, maybe except for Hong Kong. I remember my first night in Tokyo 2 summers ago, I was walking all around the Imperial Palace area and it was more or less deserted.

Should have been there with me 20 years ago! We could have popped into
the Lure! ;) But also love the French bistro there called Pastis... one of my fave places.



that is so true. For some reason we all enjoy making myths when we travel. Sometimes we don't even rationalize it, or even admit it to ourselves, but a kind of self-aggrandization kicks in and we pad the story a bit to make a city fit the bill we have in our mind. I have heard people describe a city, say "City A" and in my mind I do a double take, and I have to ask myself:"WTF? Are you talking about the "City A" that I know?" . Dundas Square has a tough job to combat the "idea" of Times Square, thus it should just never even bother to try.

I've been to the Lure and it wasn't quite as exciting as I had imagined. None of the bars in NYC were very exciting. Hell, in Stella's the male strippers couldn't even take off their G-strings. And that was back in the day when Remintons had "Sperm Attack Mondays" going on. Now that was a show worth seeing. I almost got hit in the eye once. Thank god I have a big mouth. :lol::lol::lol:

Honestly though, all cites have areas that get a bit deserted at night, maybe except for Hong Kong. I remember my first night in Tokyo 2 summers ago, I was walking all around the Imperial Palace area and it was more or less deserted.

Oh yeah, Hong Kong was packed at night. (too packed) Saigon was also very crowded at night, with lots going on all night long. Even vendors on the street were selling late into the night. The traffic is crazy and noisy. It never seems to stop

Speaking of night time vendors, Toronto needs a night market, like they have in Bangkok. I love it, it would be so cool and unique in North America. (much like Kensigton Market is)

Speaking of night time vendors, Toronto needs a night market, like they have in Bangkok. I love it, it would be so cool and unique in North America. (much like Kensigton Market is)

Actually they have a huge one in Vancouver. I think it's primarily Chinese.

Speaking of night time vendors, Toronto needs a night market, like they have in Bangkok. I love it, it would be so cool and unique in North America. (much like Kensigton Market is)

... That's a great idea.

^^ I agree... a night market in the summer in Dundas Square would be just the thing! The crowds are there, milling about, so there may as well be an open air market! Excellent idea, Molly!
Re: Lure... you are right. They were extremely strict, but I am afraid I was a bit drunk and didn't know the rules so....... made a bit of a spectacle of myself!:lol:

Giuliani has spoiled the gay scene in Manhattan. It used to be so much more fun.

Wasn't there some movement on the vendor situation recently? I remember last week listening to some news story about relaxing city bylaws and encouraging the proliferation of food vendors representing the diversity of our city. We should be capitalizing on this strength rather than limiting it.

Taller: you are right about Giuliani. Alot of New Yorkers keep telling us how lucky we are to have had Sonic, and now Circa. Gay New York certainly isn't as fun as it was 10 years ago.

The laws for vendors have been relaxed, and I am sure next summer we will see a broader variety of fast foods available from carts. The City made an ill-considered attempt at getting into the business of creating and renting out a fleet of stands, but the public reaction was so negative they wisely reconsidered and decided not to.

T.O street meat is world class

I'll freely admit that the street vendor hot dogs for sale here are in my opinion the best I have had anywhere. Many cities, like Montreal, don't allow any vending of foodstuffs on the sidewalk. I don't ever remember street food in Vancouver, either. I've eaten a few 'dogs in NYC, too, but these ones here are my fave.

The street meat is good here, the hot dogs in nyc are nasty cheap ones you buy in the stores here... lol
I don't recall any in Vancouver as well, which is weird.

Is the ads up for the tri-vision yet? Or has PCL stalled?
I'm surprised it's not all done for the holiday season, 3 weeks till xmas! :P

The street meat is good here, the hot dogs in nyc are nasty cheap ones you buy in the stores here... lol
I don't recall any in Vancouver as well, which is weird.

Is the ads up for the tri-vision yet? Or has PCL stalled?
I'm surprised it's not all done for the holiday season, 3 weeks till xmas! :P

The tri-vision isnt even installed yet. There is just a small section of the bottom middle up.

I'll freely admit that the street vendor hot dogs for sale here are in my opinion the best I have had anywhere. Many cities, like Montreal, don't allow any vending of foodstuffs on the sidewalk. I don't ever remember street food in Vancouver, either. I've eaten a few 'dogs in NYC, too, but these ones here are my fave.

There's only one in Vancouver (Howe/Robson).. very run of the mill and overpriced

The tri-vision isnt even installed yet. There is just a small section of the bottom middle up.

I figured it would've been done by now, seeing that part wss put up about 2 weeks ago or so now. I guess the cold is bothering the workers, haha.

My favourite street meat is from the chicken halal vendors in Manhattan. The first time I had it, I couldn't believe: 1.) how good it was, 2.) how much food I got, and 3.) how inexpensive it was. My favourite was a stand that only operated from just before lunch 'til around 5 or 6 PM in Midtown, near the Rockefeller Center. Everytime I visit NYC, I make a point of getting me some chicken halal... street style!

Here's a really popular Manhattan street vendor that operates at night (7:30 PM - 4 AM) and they even have their own website! http://www.53rdand6th.com

Is the chicken halal like shawarma? I'm careful about where I eat that stuff, as it stays heated so long.

I figured it would've been done by now, seeing that part wss put up about 2 weeks ago or so now. I guess the cold is bothering the workers, haha.

Now that winter is here the exterior will take a while to finish.

the chicken shawarma is usually fresh. this is what the taxi drivers eat all the time, it goes quick. since most of them will not eat beef, the beef is usually not as fresh.

My favourite street meat is from the chicken halal vendors in Manhattan. The first time I had it, I couldn't believe: 1.) how good it was, 2.) how much food I got, and 3.) how inexpensive it was. My favourite was a stand that only operated from just before lunch 'til around 5 or 6 PM in Midtown, near the Rockefeller Center. Everytime I visit NYC, I make a point of getting me some chicken halal... street style!

Here's a really popular Manhattan street vendor that operates at night (7:30 PM - 4 AM) and they even have their own website! http://www.53rdand6th.com


There's a 24 hour shwarma place at Gerrard & Jarvis... A bit west of Jarvis past the Harvey's there. It's called "Pita Land"

You can always count on 3 AM shwarma there, and it's delicious and very filling!

T.O is such a shawarma lovin city!

omg i miss shawarma, toronto has the best ,im at school in BC and u cant find it anywhere , or at least decent stuff

omg i miss shawarma, toronto has the best ,im at school in BC and u cant find it anywhere , or at least decent stuff

at least you have authentic sushi. as i'm sure u know, we got all the sushi in teh world, but its run by non japanese!!

As good as Sharwma is, I can't get over how amazing good 'kebap' was in Germany/Austria/Czech republic. I think that stuff is more Turkish. Instead of having it in a pita, it's in more of a gyro thing which is also toasted.

at least you have authentic sushi. as i'm sure u know, we got all the sushi in teh world, but its run by non japanese!!

Does it matter? I have frequently eaten amazing French food cooked by an Asian chef.

Is the chicken halal like shawarma? I'm careful about where I eat that stuff, as it stays heated so long.

There's a 24 hour shwarma place at Gerrard & Jarvis... A bit west of Jarvis past the Harvey's there. It's called "Pita Land"

You can always count on 3 AM shwarma there, and it's delicious and very filling!

Chicken Shawarma is basically a sandwich, the Middle Eastern version of the Gyro. This page is a good reference: http://www.answers.com/shawarma

When I refer to Chicken Halal from the NYC street vendors, I'm talking more about seasoned grilled pieces or chunks of chicken, served with rice and lettuce, special sauce, and some pita wedges. This page might have the best description and photo: http://andremika.blogspot.com/2007/10/shendys-halal-cart-chicken-and-rice-is.html

I'm not sure that photo does it justice. Trust me, it smells and tastes amazing, and like the person who wrote that blog entry said, it's the deal of the century.

Burritos OWNS Shawarmas!

lol, okay, enough with the Shawarma ... anyone have updated pics of the square?

Nope. So, speaking of chicken shawarma... :D

Well, I think there are a plethora of things can be done by cart. If it can be done on special events like Taste of the Danforth, it can be done on a daily basis.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/43a54b67.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/724a2ba1.jpg

I'm with Chocho about burritos and tacos. I like them better than meat on a stick, but we should be able to have a choice of either now!:

:)

damn, where do i get one of those things around my hood?!?! i've been looking for a nice open-pita shawarma for ages...all they have around here is wrap shawarmas.

Well, I think there are a plethora of things can be done by cart. If it can be done on special events like Taste of the Danforth, it can be done on a daily basis.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/43a54b67.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/724a2ba1.jpg

I'm with Chocho about burritos and tacos. I like them better than meat on a stick, but we should be able to have a choice of either now!:

:)

Mexican food is my fav! That small place...Burrito Boyz, is good. I've heard that the one in Kensington is better.

Oh yeah...keep on walking right past Burrito Boys. It is a Tex/Cal/Mex thing with 50 pound sandwiches that are ok, but owe no lineage further south than somewhere between Buffalo and San Diego. Go down the street a bit for REAL Mexican tacos:

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/ca512a0c.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/4c89ee4b.jpg

or a little further still for pupusos.. not from Mexico, of course, but very delicious!!

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/Autumn%202007/70248220.jpg

"Chipotle mexican grill" is expanding internationally with their first out of USA restaurant coming to toronto in 2008. not real mexican food, but the food is fucking amazing. watch out people, this is the hottest thing in the USA right now.

TB: The last pics you posted, the first 2 (that Mexican place in Kensington), went there in the summer that place is AMAZING!


Anyway back to the topic at hand, was at the square today and I got a look at the Future Shop with the storage facility and employee lounge at the windows... man what a stupid design.

Should religious groups be able to set up tents, tables at Yonge and Dundas?

No. Next question.

^^^ LOL! :lol:

seriously, it can be quite entertaining. I've sat for half an hour watching the
JEEZUS man at Yonge and Dundas scare the crap out of people by screaming in their ear as they walk by! I just ignore most of them.

People should remember that Dundas Square's promixity to 1 Bloor East (across the street) will ensure it is ultimately a very successful urban experiment/intervention.

Talk to you in a week...... :runaway:

Earlier this year, around May, I was walking by Dundas Square with my girlfriend, and one of those "Apocalypse" guys was trying to get me to buy a newspaper.

He had tried to do the same thing the year before, and I said to him, after he stuck it in my hand, "You told me it was the end of the world a year ago" and handed the paper back to him.

The year before when he offered me the paper and I tried to walk away with it, he grabbed me and said I had to pay for the paper, I said, "What good is money, if you're telling me the world is going to end?"

big fat burrito in kensinton is the holy grail of toronto burritos!

there's the jesus guy taking up space on the corner, then there's the islam booth tryin to sell me korans, then there is some white guy trying to sell the Bhagvad Gita. then in the summer we have the black history group trying to sell me their newspaper...its too much!

^^^ LOL! :lol:

seriously, it can be quite entertaining. I've sat for half an hour watching the
JEEZUS man at Yonge and Dundas scare the crap out of people by screaming in their ear as they walk by! I just ignore most of them.

LOL... He gets me every damn time! Ill be thinking "hes going to yell it now" and when he does it still surprises the hell out of me.

... ya I'm tired of the black history month guys ... every month is now black history month!

It's not like they're passive sellers, they're very aggressive. They hand tourists the flyers then tell them that they have to pay for them.

I like the chalk drawers or the buskers, they don't force you into paying.

Tonight the islam tent now had a bunch of tables set up - I'm all for religous freedom and promoting your cause - hand out all the books you want - but Y&D isn't a place for stalls. I draw the line of having tents and tables set up.

And nobody will do anything because the religion card will be played.

The whole thing adds life to the corner. I kind of like all the wackos vying for our attention. Regan has the right idea.. chat back! :)

Well, perhaps, religious groups should get a vendors license just like everyone else. They're selling a product too. As long as they don't target people under 18, I'm fine with it.

We should encourage street food vendors. Our multicultural makeup is one of our best assets. We should be capitalizing on this to make our city a better tourist draw, not the opposite. We should have the best street food on the planet.

Don't think it hasn't crossed my mind that I want to set up shop and try and sell three of my favourite books right in front of them. The God Delusion, God is not Great, and Letter to a Christian Nation.

yesterday at dundas square i saw a guy in a santa suit and wearing a grinch mask getting into lots of fights. i walked by around 5 and he was fighting with a religious guy.. then i walked by again around 7 and he was fighting with a homeless guy.

he really made the square come to life!! :lol:

oh by the way those little screens around the big video screen look so bad in person that i couldn't believe my eyes. if they really had to be there then why did they space them all unevenly and randomly?? :ohno:

oh by the way those little screens around the big video screen look so bad in person that i couldn't believe my eyes. if they really had to be there then why did they space them all unevenly and randomly?? :ohno:

Thank god I'm not the only person here who hates those things. Why did anyone think this was a good idea? And the worst part is that you can see the gray background.

Thank god I'm not the only person here who hates those things. Why did anyone think this was a good idea? And the worst part is that you can see the gray background.

Hah I thought I was the only one. I think I posted a bunch of pages back about the ridiculousness of those, and the only people who replied thought I was silly for thinking that. The whole thing looks like they wanted a bigger screen, but didn't have money so they settled for useless tilted screens (with a double row on the right side for so strange reason) because maybe that would look just as nice... well it doesn't.

"The whole thing looks like they wanted a bigger screen, but didn't have money so they settled for useless tilted screens"

I imagine you hit the nail on the head. Those screens are expensive, and probably someone had a bright idea to save a few bucks.

Don't think it hasn't crossed my mind that I want to set up shop and try and sell three of my favourite books right in front of them. The God Delusion, God is not Great, and Letter to a Christian Nation.

Oh, Crazy Canuck.

Don't think it hasn't crossed my mind that I want to set up shop and try and sell three of my favourite books right in front of them. The God Delusion, God is not Great, and Letter to a Christian Nation.

Wish you would. The mind control industry is very powerful. It would be great to have someone who offers de-programming. They're like the Borg in Star Trek. Resistance is futile! We will assimilate you! :lol:

Oh, Crazy Canuck.

It's just a thought, lol.

Hah I thought I was the only one. I think I posted a bunch of pages back about the ridiculousness of those, and the only people who replied thought I was silly for thinking that. The whole thing looks like they wanted a bigger screen, but didn't have money so they settled for useless tilted screens (with a double row on the right side for so strange reason) because maybe that would look just as nice... well it doesn't.

You're not the only one. I've mentioned it more than once. Here are two examples from three months ago:

On Sept. 4: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=15173168#post15173168

And on Sept. 11: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=15321527#post15321527

"The whole thing looks like they wanted a bigger screen, but didn't have money so they settled for useless tilted screens"

I imagine you hit the nail on the head. Those screens are expensive, and probably someone had a bright idea to save a few bucks.

That's just pathetic. Those stupid gaps still irk me. If anybody at Pen Equity had the tiniest bit of creativity or gave a crap about our city, it could have been so much better. Too many people just want to exploit this city and give little back. That's how I see Pen Equity. The sad part is it was once expropriated by Toronto, so at one point, we were in the driver's seat. I have no clue how these opportunities always seem to slip away but I think it's a shame. I want better for my home town. Is that too much to ask?:ohno::ohno::ohno:

Photos taken today. More of the tri-vision has been installed.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2418/2102453212_1a7dd34fb5_b.jpg


From Dundas looking east you can see the north facing sign.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2239/2102453206_66ce9598dc_b.jpg

Well, I finally went into Future Shop today, and what a mindblasting experience. Truly it seems there was no design whatsoever... just jumbled a bunch of crap in wherever it would fit so they could open before Christmas. Also, that exposed ceiling is appalling. The window wall is wasted... mostly covered by merchandising displays rammed up against the windows, and the glass is so dark you can barely see light through it. Was pointless trying to take a photo. Canadian Tire is posh compared to this. Then the elevator ride back down to the street.. so ghetto. I now think of it as Putrid Shop.

They probably covered the windows at Future Shop on purpose... if it's too bright you can't see the TVs too well.

They probably covered the windows at Future Shop on purpose... if it's too bright you can't see the TVs too well.

I doubt the good people at Future Shop pay that much attention to light. The big, white curved screens above the counter in the middle of the store are totally washed out by the super bright ceiling lights.

Come on guys, it can't be that bad, can it?

Come on guys, it can't be that bad, can it?

That is what I said. Trust me, it makes Best Buy look like Bloomingdale's.

Come on guys, it can't be that bad, can it?


Unfortunately, yes it is. I can't imagine anyone wanting to step forward to claim they “designed” this mess. They are totally oblivious to the location of the building and how important that location is. They are unhappily ignorant of the enormous advertising potential afforded by the windows overlooking Dundas Square, both to promote the Future Shop brand and the city. I could have been in any warehouse store in any suburb. Damn!

Unfortunately, yes it is. I can't imagine anyone wanting to step forward to claim they “designed” this mess. They are totally oblivious to the location of the building and how important that location is. They are unhappily ignorant of the enormous advertising potential afforded by the windows overlooking Dundas Square, both to promote the Future Shop brand and the city. I could have been in any warehouse store in any suburb. Damn!

Well if they plan their stores the same way Canadian Tire does (Which makes sense since all of their other locations are pretty much the same layout) then this store had no plan. CT has plans already drawn for various store sizes which are pretty much standard no matter where you go. The Bay/Dundas location was built differently than the traditional store which meant there was no existing plan to follow. The plan was pretty much done on the spot and things were monitored to see how well the plan worked. No major changes have been made so im guessing their planning was a success (Though Marks Work Warehouse is having problems with their layout and may see changes) Btw... if you remember when CT first opened, the windows were pretty much filled with overstock, today they are filled with product displays.

I can see future shop making numerous changes over the next few years until they get a floor plan that works.

You really get the feeling in Future Shop that it was all just jammed together in a mad rush to open before Christmas. Possibly they intend to give it some cohesion afterward.... but it might be tempting for them to just wait and leave it as is.

Everyone should send these bozos an email telling them what they think. The email address is:
service@futureshop.com
I think they operate out of Burnaby, BC.

Sometimes these emails work. About seven years ago I wrote Aldo in Montreal showing them a photo
of the wretched renovation that was done on their downtown store (since closed) where you could see the filthy ghosting of the old sign that no one had bothered to paint over. Within a few weeks the store was looking better. Name and shame, I say....

You've convinced me T/B, Im drawing up the email now. So far I've got;
I am writing in hopes of an improvement to the recently opened FutureShop at Yonge/Dundas in Toronto. This key location is supposed to house your 'flagship' store, yet the use of space has been less than impressive. Besides the exposed ceiling and generally poor layout of shelves and staff rooms, the window wall that looks onto Dundas Square is wasted, covered and dark. I could go on, but I have faith that anyone who goes and sees this themselves will recognize the mismanagement. I know this location has been opened in a hurry to catch the Christmas rush, but I hope that due attention is paid sooner rather than later. This problem is about image as much practical design, and this store offers a large company such as Futureshop a chance to firmly establish its brand image among a sea of contenders.

That's a good idea!

You really get the feeling in Future Shop that it was all just jammed together in a mad rush to open before Christmas. Possibly they intend to give it some cohesion afterward.... but it might be tempting for them to just wait and leave it as is.

Everyone should send these bozos an email telling them what they think. The email address is:
service@futureshop.com
I think they operate out of Burnaby, BC.

Sometimes these emails work. About seven years ago I wrote Aldo in Montreal showing them a photo
of the wretched renovation that was done on their downtown store (since closed) where you could see the filthy ghosting of the old sign that no one had bothered to paint over. Within a few weeks the store was looking better. Name and shame, I say....

Futureshop is a lost cause. Let's move on to Adidas.

I have been to their store in London and Madrid. It's not going to be spectacular but at least more slick than FS.

Adidas Sports Performance stores actually do not have a big collection of their lines. I am a Tennis freak and their collection at both London and Madrid were quite lacking. I would expect their Toronto Store to have a big section for MLS with FC Toronto being their focal point.

It would be interesting to see how they are going to use the basement level of their shop. Maybe a bargain section. Or could that be their employee lounge, so that they don't have to be viewed by the public a la FS? :)

You really get the feeling in Future Shop that it was all just jammed together in a mad rush to open before Christmas. Possibly they intend to give it some cohesion afterward.... but it might be tempting for them to just wait and leave it as is.

Everyone should send these bozos an email telling them what they think. The email address is:
service@futureshop.com
I think they operate out of Burnaby, BC.

Sometimes these emails work. About seven years ago I wrote Aldo in Montreal showing them a photo
of the wretched renovation that was done on their downtown store (since closed) where you could see the filthy ghosting of the old sign that no one had bothered to paint over. Within a few weeks the store was looking better. Name and shame, I say....


... sent them an email just now ... thanks.

Come on guys, it can't be that bad, can it?

... it's bad from the moment you try to enter from the street - the Yonge St. enterence is very awkward... especially when it's busy.

The computer section you get trapped in ... as it's a pocket locked away... Your always walking around people... the cashier station is in the middle of the store...

... it's bad from the moment you try to enter from the street - the Yonge St. enterence is very awkward... especially when it's busy.

The computer section you get trapped in ... as it's a pocket locked away... Your always walking around people... the cashier station is in the middle of the store...

The whole thing just lacks any kind of high tech flash, style, cool vibe or anything. :ohno: YEP, I know this is a Future Shop and not Apple :nuts: but I just was wishing this one flagship store would be something to not hate but I guess I expected too much. :bash:

Would it have killed the motherf*#kers to go above the ordinary, and make it fun? After all, Dundas Square, is the centre, of "the centre of the universe". (Isn't it?) So, I would expect so much more but maybe I'm delusional right now. :lol:

Well, I finally went into Future Shop today, and what a mindblasting experience. Truly it seems there was no design whatsoever... just jumbled a bunch of crap in wherever it would fit so they could open before Christmas. Also, that exposed ceiling is appalling. The window wall is wasted... mostly covered by merchandising displays rammed up against the windows, and the glass is so dark you can barely see light through it. Was pointless trying to take a photo. Canadian Tire is posh compared to this. Then the elevator ride back down to the street.. so ghetto. I now think of it as Putrid Shop.

I agree with your observation on the elevator ride in and out of it. The "lobby is dead and there is no life in it. Even the Eaton Centre entrance across the street with nothing but a TD machine in it has more life.

It's not done yet, let's just hope that the best is yet to come.

You've convinced me T/B, Im drawing up the email now. So far I've got;
I am writing in hopes of an improvement to the recently opened FutureShop at Yonge/Dundas in Toronto. This key location is supposed to house your 'flagship' store, yet the use of space has been less than impressive. Besides the exposed ceiling and generally poor layout of shelves and staff rooms, the window wall that looks onto Dundas Square is wasted, covered and dark. I could go on, but I have faith that anyone who goes and sees this themselves will recognize the mismanagement. I know this location has been opened in a hurry to catch the Christmas rush, but I hope that due attention is paid sooner rather than later. This problem is about image as much practical design, and this store offers a large company such as Futureshop a chance to firmly establish its brand image among a sea of contenders.

Wow, you really sendin' this? Wonder if they'll reply...

Futureshop is a lost cause. Let's move on to Adidas.


I see no reason why it is a lost cause.. the store opened in a rush, and perhaps some negative feedback will encourage them to rethink it. This is fairly common with branch-plant retail.. businesses will put more pride and effort into a 'flagship' if it is in their own city. We have to encourage these bozos to examine what they have done here.

Wow, you really sendin' this? Wonder if they'll reply...

I seriously am going to call the Future Shop store manager and express my disappointment with them too. I figure if enough people give them a bit of direction, it couldn't hurt. Somebody has to get the ball moving and I know it probably won't do much but I will vent anyway.

Next up, Pen Equity, I really need to tell those guys off. I just think that if they have no commitment to this city at all, then keep their projects in the suburbs, so it won't ruin the one part of Toronto that really matters to me. (the heart) Let's face it, the central core is what really distinguishes Toronto, screw that up and you might as well live in Edmonton. (Which my brother recently moved to, after constantly bitching about Toronto. Guess what? Now he misses Toronto and says life in Toronto was so much easier and better. Edmonton seems a bit rough for the boy. lol)

So my point is, you have to protect and APPRECIATE the good things we do have in this city because WE DESERVE IT! We deserve to have quality and not have to settle for sub par and cheap-outs. This is a very wealthy city in one of the worlds economic powerhouses, so I do not buy the notion of Toronto crying poor all the time. It's just a political dance, with smoke and mirrors. This city is VERY wealthy.

DO YOU HEAR THAT PEN EQUITY!!! WE DESERVE BETTER AND WE DEMAND BETTER!!! :ohno::ohno::ohno:

If Pen Equity can't afford to do the job right, they should have left the job to more capable and talented people. :bash: :bash: :bash:

Sorry for the rant but it just came out.

I think more people should rant about it.. would do a world of good for our friends at Future Shop to realize what a trashy store they have foisted upon that corner.

I'm joining in the negative criticism of Toronto Life Square (formerly Metropolis):
1) I think it's mainly PenEquity's fault for the lack of vision and civic commitment to create a building in the commercial epicentre of the city that Toronto can be proud of, as well, as for being so damn f**king cheap and greedy and not spending money on good design. It's infuriating to see the lack of quality and good design of this building when compared to similar developments elsewhere in the world, namely Tokyo, NYC, Singapore, etc.
2) City Hall should have also kept a closer eye during the design process considering the quality of properties this "developer" has and manages. Just take a look at their website: http://www.penequity.com/Pages/leasing.html
3) I'm surprised Toronto Life Publishing paid money to put their name on this substandard development.
4) Has anybody emailed Christopher Hume about this yet. I'm sure he'll have a field day on his column when this thing has it's official opening. Can't wait to read it.

I don't think the entire building is a disaster... the signage/advertising South wall will work perfectly well with Dundas Square. The interior space of the building is being horrendously mis-used by Future Shop. The sad thing is that the development could have been so much better. The most glaring omission is a high rise element... a tall, slender and sleek tower would have anchored the entire square.

I also blame Ryerson for not letting their parking garage be torn down. It takes up a huge amount of the interior space, creating an awkward layout with the inaccessible "nose" of the building.

I also blame Ryerson for not letting their parking garage be torn down. It takes up a huge amount of the interior space, creating an awkward layout with the inaccessible "nose" of the building.

I see your point but I have 2 questions. Why did they even bother to build that part of the building it is a small triangle of space that seems to get left out of the rest of the building. I wonder why they didn't build a more curvy (curved wall?) that bulged out onto the street to give it more interior space. Failing that why build that area at all? The small triangle of sidewall was perfect for a small sculpture or mini meeting area. It kind of cuts the ryerson students off now as they have to walk around that triangle.

I see your point but I have 2 questions. Why did they even bother to build that part of the building it is a small triangle of space that seems to get left out of the rest of the building. I wonder why they didn't build a more curvy (curved wall?) that bulged out onto the street to give it more interior space. Failing that why build that area at all? The small triangle of sidewall was perfect for a small sculpture or mini meeting area. It kind of cuts the ryerson students off now as they have to walk around that triangle.

In regards to the curved wall idea (which I think was a much more attactive design option considering the shape and turn of Dundas St. at that point and of DS itself), PenEquity is as cheap as they come. Read: curved walls are, in general quite a bit more expensive that straight ones, especially when we are talking about large glazed areas.

I see your point but I have 2 questions. Why did they even bother to build that part of the building it is a small triangle of space that seems to get left out of the rest of the building. I wonder why they didn't build a more curvy (curved wall?) that bulged out onto the street to give it more interior space. Failing that why build that area at all? The small triangle of sidewall was perfect for a small sculpture or mini meeting area. It kind of cuts the ryerson students off now as they have to walk around that triangle.

Yeah, that certainly would be an option, That little "nose" sure doesn't add much to the interior of the building. I guess people felt that it would be good to have a facade that followed the curve of Dundas street.

Another option would have been to keep O'Keefe lane open, and only developing Metropolis on the part of the site west of the Ryerson parking garage. But even in that case, that parking lot should have been torn down with something better built in its place.

I think they should have bought out HMV and built on top of them and that would have given them more space on the upper levels. As for that triangle, Unit 300 looks really awkward to deal with. Same with Unit 122. I'm really surprised Units 112 and 114 haven't been leased yet, considering their Yonge St frontages. Once it opens, I'm sure Units 302, 304, 306, 314 and 316 will get leased.

I also blame Ryerson for not letting their parking garage be torn down. It takes up a huge amount of the interior space, creating an awkward layout with the inaccessible "nose" of the building.

Ryerson was beyond idiodic.

I would have made far more sense to tear down the structure. Dig out the area (maybe even bought the HMV site, put in a very large multi-storey parking garage in the basement and a proper building above ground - in turn offer a floor of proper classrooms - instead the "theatres" - which is stupid.

Ryerson was beyond idiodic.

I would have made far more sense to tear down the structure. Dig out the area (maybe even bought the HMV site, put in a very large multi-storey parking garage in the basement and a proper building above ground - in turn offer a floor of proper classrooms - instead the "theatres" - which is stupid.

It had to do with the revenue and operation of the parking garage. Tearing it down would mean losing a book store (which until this year was the only one) and revenue from the parking garage. Seeing as it has taken 10 years to build this thing... Ryerson walked away as the smart party. No delays or lost revenue to worry about!

The benefits to Ryerson from the final planning report:

"(d)Ryerson Polytechnic University: use of 12 cinemas (up to 2800 seats) for lecture hall purposes during the morning; guaranteed parking revenues; physical improvements to the Victoria Street streetscape; an "address" on the new square for this important downtown institution;"

Also

(b)The former City of Toronto entered into a Memorandum of Terms with Ryerson Polytechnic University on November 3, 1997. The memorandum is being transformed into an agreement, the intention of which is to serve as a contract between PenEquity Management Corporation and Ryerson once the agreement is assigned from the City upon taking title to the lands.

The agreement covers issues which arise from developing above the Ryerson parking garage including the transfer of the air rights, the guarantee of parking revenues, the operation of the garage, possible disruption to the operation of the Ryerson bookstore and the Tim Hortons, payments to Ryerson, use of the theatres for lecture hall space, the design of the development as it affects Ryerson and various miscellaneous matters.

These terms have not changed since the approval of the former City of Toronto Council with the following exception. Ryerson has requested that the City stand behind PenEquity's guarantee of the revenue from the Ryerson parking garage. The City's guarantee would be for approximately $1.5 million during the construction period of the project and for $750,000.00 from substantial completion until there was a 2 year period of no claims on the guarantee. In consideration of the City's role in brokering an arrangement between PenEquity and Ryerson which will be of some considerable benefit, it is appropriate in this limited circumstance that the City stand beside Ryerson to ensure that it maintains its revenue position.

It had to do with the revenue and operation of the parking garage. Tearing it down would mean losing a book store (which until this year was the only one) and revenue from the parking garage. Seeing as it has taken 10 years to build this thing... Ryerson walked away as the smart party. No delays or lost revenue to worry about!

The benefits to Ryerson from the final planning report:

"(d)Ryerson Polytechnic University: use of 12 cinemas (up to 2800 seats) for lecture hall purposes during the morning; guaranteed parking revenues; physical improvements to the Victoria Street streetscape; an "address" on the new square for this important downtown institution;"

Also

(b)The former City of Toronto entered into a Memorandum of Terms with Ryerson Polytechnic University on November 3, 1997. The memorandum is being transformed into an agreement, the intention of which is to serve as a contract between PenEquity Management Corporation and Ryerson once the agreement is assigned from the City upon taking title to the lands.

The agreement covers issues which arise from developing above the Ryerson parking garage including the transfer of the air rights, the guarantee of parking revenues, the operation of the garage, possible disruption to the operation of the Ryerson bookstore and the Tim Hortons, payments to Ryerson, use of the theatres for lecture hall space, the design of the development as it affects Ryerson and various miscellaneous matters.

These terms have not changed since the approval of the former City of Toronto Council with the following exception. Ryerson has requested that the City stand behind PenEquity's guarantee of the revenue from the Ryerson parking garage. The City's guarantee would be for approximately $1.5 million during the construction period of the project and for $750,000.00 from substantial completion until there was a 2 year period of no claims on the guarantee. In consideration of the City's role in brokering an arrangement between PenEquity and Ryerson which will be of some considerable benefit, it is appropriate in this limited circumstance that the City stand beside Ryerson to ensure that it maintains its revenue position.

... well if the World of Books seems to be able to find a new temporary store along Yonge street every 6 months ... clearly Ryerson could find something.

Maybe they could have bought the historic building right next door. Renovated it. Put the book store there. Tore down parking garage... moved back into new - better facility ... and sell of renovated building.

Gee.. no creativity in public institutions. It's all about doing the bare minimum.

BTW ... this is what Future Shop sends as a response:

Dear Valued Customer:

Thank you for notifying us of your concerns. Please be assured that we will make every effort to provide you with a satisfactory resolution.

To help us assist you, please respond back to us with the following information so that we are able to provide the store with complete details and your complete contact information:

Date of Incident:
Who you spoke with at the store:
Your Full Name:
Your address:
Your phone number:

Thank you for your patience and co-operation. We value your business and look forward to serving you again.

**Please copy this entire message into your next e-mail back.**

Sincerely,

Customer Care
Future Shop

BTW ... this is what Future Shop sends as a response:

Dear Valued Customer:

Thank you for notifying us of your concerns. Please be assured that we will make every effort to provide you with a satisfactory resolution.

To help us assist you, please respond back to us with the following information so that we are able to provide the store with complete details and your complete contact information:

Date of Incident:
Who you spoke with at the store:
Your Full Name:
Your address:
Your phone number:

Thank you for your patience and co-operation. We value your business and look forward to serving you again.

**Please copy this entire message into your next e-mail back.**

Sincerely,

Customer Care
Future Shop

LMFAO @ Date of incident.... "Everytime I walk by, or into your fucking store you idiots!"

LOL! In other words register your complaint at:
www.tellsomeonewhogivesafck.com :lol:

LOL! In other words register your complaint at:
www.tellsomeonewhogivesafck.com :lol:

EXACTLY! They probably didn't even read the thing. :ohno:

BTW ... this is what Future Shop sends as a response:

Dear Valued Customer:

Thank you for notifying us of your concerns. Please be assured that we will make every effort to provide you with a satisfactory resolution.

To help us assist you, please respond back to us with the following information so that we are able to provide the store with complete details and your complete contact information:

Date of Incident:
Who you spoke with at the store:
Your Full Name:
Your address:
Your phone number:

Thank you for your patience and co-operation. We value your business and look forward to serving you again.

**Please copy this entire message into your next e-mail back.**

Sincerely,

Customer Care
Future Shop

Standard corporate email response much? Didn't make any mention of the issues brought up in the initial email and the response has no relevance to it either.

^^^ You will find when you reply to this computer generated response, you will get another one automatically returned:


"Thank you for your Email.

We are experiencing higher than normal email and call volume.
Your email is important to us and we will respond to you as quickly
as possible.

Please be advised that your email is in priority sequence, sending
additional emails may delay the response.

To assist with your inquiry you may wish to visit our Information
Centre at the following link:

http://www.futureshop.ca/informationcentre/EN/default.asp?logon=&langid=EN

Your patience and cooperation is greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,

Futureshop.ca
Customer Care

Please do not respond to this email, as it is an auto system
response."

I wish it was a Best Buy @ TLS instead. Future Shop is scummy and terrible service. (= commission)

I like how they tell me:

"Please be advised that your email is in priority sequence, sending
additional emails may delay the response."

... So fuck off and leave us alone.

I like how they tell me:

"Please be advised that your email is in priority sequence, sending
additional emails may delay the response."

... So fuck off and leave us alone.

I love the "Please do not respond to this email, as it is an auto system
response."

Another 'fuck off and leave us alone'

I wonder what the next round of automated responses sounds like!

You know damn well no (real) human is ever going to read these things, and if they do it will be some bored secretary filing her nails in Burnaby who will sniff at each one and hit "delete"..."delete"...."delete"...until she comes upon a joke forward sent to her by another bored secretary.

I wish it was a Best Buy @ TLS instead. Future Shop is scummy and terrible service. (= commission)

True, but since Best Buy owns Future Shop, I think the service is basically the same.

I think the main reason Best Buy has kept Future Shop around, and has placed it in Toronto Life Square is that it has been in the physical area for a long time, and also since the majority of people still believe that it is a Canadian company.

Well they don't advertise the fact that BB owns FS, but everyone heard about the buyout, and everyone knows it.

It is pretty sad when a generic corp like Best Buy comes in, buys a generic Canadian rival, and the result has us wishing Best Buy had taken the space at Y/D... :(

I'm as patriotic as the next chap... but I have my limits...

It is indeed pretty sad. However, I'm sure a Dundas Square snowball fight would cheer you up.

It is pretty sad when a generic corp like Best Buy comes in, buys a generic Canadian rival, and the result has us wishing Best Buy had taken the space at Y/D... :(

I'm as patriotic as the next chap... but I have my limits...

I don't like these situations either, but in this case, Best Buy is the better brand. I have no respect for Future Shop.

I think the main reason I don't like Future Shop is the fact that Best Buy is letting the brand die, and isn't investing the proper dough into marketing and sales. I think future shop even makes fun of this fact with their commercials, you know, the ones where they have the fill in the blank sales event but the same commercial.

10 years from now I doubt that Future Shop will be around.

Not if it keeps heading in the direction that it is. When I was new to buying cameras I felt bamboozled by many of the sales people who were scratching and clawing for commission. Fortunately I eventually found one who seemed unbiased and knew what he was saying. I would never buy another camera there again, under any circumstance however.

I don't think FS is going anywhere. If it goes away, it just leaves the industry with room for another strong competitor, be it Circuit City or another company... For now, FS still has 1 1/2 times the store count of BB.

I think the big thing was that when bb was coming in they were a suburban power centre kind of store. FS was the same but still had some urban locations (see the Yonge St. store). Now bb has seen that they too can operate in an urban surrounding and that I fear may spell the death of FS unless they stick to higher end product and better service.

Oh wow... y'all still talkin' 'bout Future Shop? :)

Oh wow... y'all still talkin' 'bout Future Shop? :)

No joke. Just think Dino, if they didn't tear down those old buildings, we wouldn't be in this mess. :lol::lol:

I was in there the other day, and I did not see what all the fuss was about. It was a Future Shop. And it was just as I expected it. The locker room part is silly, but otherwise...

No joke. Just think Dino, if they didn't tear down those old buildings, we wouldn't be in this mess. :lol::lol:

I was in there the other day, and I did not see what all the fuss was about. It was a Future Shop. And it was just as I expected it. The locker room part is silly, but otherwise...

I think that's the whole point, it's just a Future Shop but it should have been more than just a regular Future Shop. It could have been a store worthy of that predominant corner. It should have been much more than it was but with that defeatist attitude, we end up with just more of the same third rate crap many Torontonians seem to accept. I was born in Toronto and I don't want the same old, same old. I want better. Is that too much to ask of ourselves? I don't think so. YES, some Torontonians actually want better and I am not ashamed to say it. That Mayor better keep his promise to us, we want a city that deserves to be Canada's big shot. I'm waiting, David. Where is my beautiful city? Keep your promises and spend some money.

I think that's the whole point, it's just a Future Shop but it should have been more than just a regular Future Shop. It could have been a store worthy of that predominant corner. It should have been much more than it was but with that defeatist attitude, we end up with just more of the same third rate crap many Torontonians seem to accept. I was born in Toronto and I don't want the same old, same old. I want better. Is that too much to ask of ourselves? I don't think so. YES, some Torontonians actually want better and I am not ashamed to say it. That Mayor better keep his promise to us, we want a city that deserves to be Canada's big shot. I'm waiting, David. Where is my beautiful city? Keep your promises and spend some money.

So in your opinion, having a bigger and better chain electronics store is what Torontonians should be aiming for to become a better city that strives for greatness? Personally, I think this Square has no bearing on why I like Toronto. Even if this turned out perfectly, it would still be just a big bunch of advertisements and stores that I could visit elsewhere. The real Toronto for me is everywhere BUT this corner.

But I agree with you 100% that people should ditch the defeatist attitude here and just enjoy what we already have and continue to improve this awesome city. Being a defeatist is so 90s.

No joke. Just think Dino, if they didn't tear down those old buildings, we wouldn't be in this mess. :lol::lol:

I was in there the other day, and I did not see what all the fuss was about. It was a Future Shop. And it was just as I expected it. The locker room part is silly, but otherwise...

Well, okay... I can understand any argument about the lobby - when you walk in at that corner its dead. Empty. Nada. But the store itself, when you walk in, is not all that bad. I was expecting way worse (like way) from all the hoopla I heard here. But as soon as you step foot in the door, it's a store. And there's even a greeter! Come on, now.

:tongue2:

I prefer the FS sign to the Best Buy Sign. Honestly I think Best Buy is sooo 90's..

I think that's the whole point, it's just a Future Shop but it should have been more than just a regular Future Shop. It could have been a store worthy of that predominant corner. It should have been much more than it was but with that defeatist attitude, we end up with just more of the same third rate crap many Torontonians seem to accept. I was born in Toronto and I don't want the same old, same old. I want better. Is that too much to ask of ourselves? I don't think so. YES, some Torontonians actually want better and I am not ashamed to say it. That Mayor better keep his promise to us, we want a city that deserves to be Canada's big shot. I'm waiting, David. Where is my beautiful city? Keep your promises and spend some money.

Trust me, I have high standards, but I don't see how the argument applies here. It is Future Shop. If I had my way, we would have no box format stores in the city. I vote with my dollar, and avoid shopping at these places.

I guess what I am saying is that I don't care about this issue, and perhaps I am pleased that it is a dinky store that leaves more room for something else that can impress us. No, I take that back. I don't give a crap about any of the stores in this place.

But when it is all said and done, I am happy with the redevelopment of the square, including this corner of it. As Dick Florida says, it is not my asthetic, but I see it serving a valuable purpose as a meeting place.

Anyone going to this square and expecting to be blown away by the Future Shop is a tool IMO.

The Tim Hortons won't blow people away either.

Will the AMC knock the socks off every other movie theatre in town? No.

This is one of those things where the whole should be greater than the sum of its parts. Let's judge it when it is whole.

... it's like "Pimp my Big Box plaza"

What really gets me laughing about this building is when ever I'm on dundas heading east just where it curves to the right. if you look up, you can see what I presume to be the Future Shop staff room. it looks horrible, jackets, crap tables, a fridge, and lockers... Come on!!

... facing onto our square? Ew.... what's with these people. haha

Have they finished putting up that other giant screen yet that was half done two weeks ago?

^^ I don't think so.
So far, I'm very disappointed by this new development (inside and outside). The outside is not as great as I imagined, the ads & signs aren't nice, and this grey color of the building really sad... The only good thing is this giant screen. Hopefully it will be better once completely finished...

im not trying to put dundas square down or anything, but i'm currently in new york for a little while, and i was at times square today and wow, toronto cannot compare to what new york has done. since last time i was here, about a year or so ago, they have expanded like crazy, with many new personalized stores. times square has a massive screen, bigger than any in dundas squares, only devoted to an m&m's store.. it's huge! moreover, theres some weird charmin ultra (the toilet paper brand) washroom type thing, where its basically just a place you enter with posters all over, the theme song playing, and you go up an escalator to some kind of big room with a line to personal washrooms, with people running in after every person to inspect and clean it. really cool place and i reccomend it.
my main point is that its not about signage or stuff like that, what dundas square needs is more specialized stores that will attract tourism, then the ads will come themselves. we need something like a coca cola store, just filled with coca cola products. or something like a store devoted to cadbury products, we've already got the big bad ontop of the building with people climbing over it.
im not sure if dundas square itself is able to attracts those types of things, but all i'm saying is that while many are talking about all the banners, lights, posters, ads, and neon, the main issue is more outdoor shopping. you can cover a building completely with neon, but it wont attract the millions that times squares shopping avalability does.

^^
Why is this thread all about comparing to Times Square. This is Toronto, not New York. As long as NYC is being used as the benchmark how can we enjoy any of these great projects going on in OUR city. Yes New York is awesome, yes Chicago has it going on. But in case any have forgotten Toronto is developing its own life, its own vibe different from any precedent set by pioneering cities. Perfection doesn't come the first, second, third, or fourth time around. I realize we all want the best for Toronto but the city is still fairly young, it's just hitting it's stride so let's implore some patience. I agree that this project is meh but its a friggin building with a bunch of signs on it, it's so adaptable its crazy.

I'd say that the comparison comes directly from the city and developers. I don't have a link, but I'm sure I've heard on numerous times a comparison being made.

It's also an obvious comparison, different culture and life aside they are essentially very similar.

Given the fact that Dundas Square is being built to some sort of master plan should mean a perfect opportunity to build the best the first time. What I find disappointing is the lack of any real inspiration in anything planned or built. All the components are there, they're just out of phase or something.

theres some weird charmin ultra (the toilet paper brand) washroom type thing, where its basically just a place you enter with posters all over, the theme song playing, and you go up an escalator to some kind of big room with a line to personal washrooms, with people running in after every person to inspect and clean it.

Thats great. :lol:


Seriously though, having a bunch of kitchshy tourist crap will not improve Dundas Square at all. Emulating Times Square in that respect is something we absolutely do NOT want to do.

nevermind this... i was just being overly sarcastic because i'm depressed that my desktop computer broke today :(

so sarcasm deleted.

The tri-vision is nearing completion. Latest update from the Metropolis web site.

http://www.metropolis.ca/

http://www.metropolis.ca/gallery/images/1197220353.jpg


Construction Progress - AMC Theatre Lobby
http://www.metropolis.ca/gallery/images/1197122069.jpg


Construction Update - View from escalators leaving AMC
http://www.metropolis.ca/gallery/images/1197122015.jpg

I cannot believe they didn't have this finished by the Christmas Shopping season.

secondly, Whoever designed Future Shop should be shot. Nice view of boxes heading down the escalators.

The draw at Dundas Square will never, should never be Future shop. The draw is the constant events and concerts that happen there.

I like the escalators though, they make a cool photo.

The building here provides an urban wall, and some cool restaurant patios.

I went in there again this past Sunday and took a closer look at the lobby/escalator area. I imagined it with all the other stores open and realized, 'hey, it could still work out just yet'.

The pic of the new AMC (below) looks promising and let's not forget there'll be an Adidas, Extreme Fitness, Jack Astor's and a food court opening soon.

Let's not give up on it yet. This baby still has time to wow.

(The virtual black greeter at the foot of the Future Shop Yonge St. entrance did wow me; in fact, it reminded me of the virtual black historian from The Time Machine.)

I cannot believe they didn't have this finished by the Christmas Shopping season.

secondly, Whoever designed Future Shop should be shot. Nice view of boxes heading down the escalators.

.. you can't believe Pen Equity didn't finish something on time???

Come on, less keep the sarcasm down!

(The virtual black greeter at the foot of the Future Shop Yonge St. entrance did wow me; in fact, it reminded me of the virtual black historian from The Time Machine.)

It's a short 'wow' factor though, because once you're funneled onto the narrow escalator, you have nothing else to look at but down at the projector. They could've at least hidden the projector. It's like showing someone a cool magic trick and then immediately spoiling how it's done.

Now that all the pieces are in place for the tri-vision, have they put ads in it yet? Or is it just sitting there empty.

It's a short 'wow' factor though, because once you're funneled onto the narrow escalator, you have nothing else to look at but down at the projector. They could've at least hidden the projector. It's like showing someone a cool magic trick and then immediately spoiling how it's done.

Yeah, true dat.

The rotating panels of the trivision were being installed yesterday.

They were almost done when I walked by today.

Pictures?

Pictures?


I was thinking the same, I could walk 5 blocks up Yonge and see for myself, but I'm too lazy. in the morning maybe.

Pictures?

Taken by Smunky over at UT today:

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee89/smuncky/Ferry%20Corsten%20at%20Guv%2011%20year/DSC05162.jpg

I suppose TLS hasn't turned out to be the anchor of Dundas Square we all hoped it might have become. However, there are a lot of other signs in that area, and the new City building I'm sure will add something.

Toronto Life Square will just be another fixture in the advertisement orgy we call Dundas Square and surrounding area. Hopefully something much better will be built within eye sight and people will forget it even exists.

It's with all things Ontario - it looks over engineered and no time spent on craftsmanship.

Canadian architects are good at engineering Zellers stores, but completely useless when it comes to design works of beauty or style.

Again, the conceptuals for this building were great, until they were handed over to the engineers who the took it and put their over-engineered lack of creative thinking ideas to work.

Look at the thickness of the borders around the billboards? It looks like a bunch of billboards slapped to a wall. When it could have been sooo much more.

But as we've seen with the interior of the Future Shop, design is not a strong suit of Canadians. And we all pay for it.

Architects don't engineer highways, engineers do. Civil engineers to be specific. There are hundreds of awful architects in this country, but also lots of very talented ones. To lump all Canadian architects together is not only unfair, but inaccurate generalization. This building is a dud, as it was so eloquently put in a recent article, but that shouldn't taint all architects in this country as substandard.

It should also be noted that architects work under numerous constraints that the general public are not privy to. Budget constraints and the desires of developers are just 2 of many. In all fairness, architects don't have free reign and 100% control over projects.

I was, and remain, 100% in support of a commercial development of this genre in this area, but this building is exceedingly disappointing. The only thing they seem to have gotten right are the black sidewalk posts lining this stretch of Yonge Street. They look grand. Unfortunately, they even managed to screw this up. They've been secured to the sidewalk with asphalt in a truly amateur and shoddy manner. Why bother investing in sophisticated and expensive features and then ruin it with sloppy workmanship? These people are out to lunch. Shocking.

I agree with both of you. The borders around the signs are ludicrous and the overall craftsmanship is pathetic.

I reiterate.. whoever thought that stationary ventilation shaft fans were a nice touch should be shot.

Their body should be burned in Dundas Square. The ashes should then be loaded into the next rocket headed for outer space and released when they are far enough away from our planet. As the ashes float around aimlessly (like his creative mind) a meteor should come out of nowhere and smash them into unrecognizable particles that will eventually drift into the sun.

Let's not blame the engineers either.

Engineers do as they are told.

This structure is what it is - crass and ugly. Perfect for this intersection. To expect more from it is pretty foolish.

It would be more foolish to design a spectacular structure, and then hide it behind some crappy signs and LCDs.

As for the complaints about the implementation of the design, have at it. Shoddy work is never acceptable. I get that beef.

I agree with both of you. The borders around the signs are ludicrous and the overall craftsmanship is pathetic.

I reiterate.. whoever thought that stationary ventilation shaft fans were a nice touch should be shot.

Their body should be burned in Dundas Square. The ashes should then be loaded into the next rocket headed for outer space and released when they are far enough away from our planet. As the ashes float around aimlessly (like his creative mind) a meteor should come out of nowhere and smash them into unrecognizable particles that will eventually drift into the sun.

:lol:

This building has to be the one that has generated the most visceral criticism in recent memory in this and other forums, including urbantoronto.ca I hope this will turn into heavy criticism in the regular media, as well. It's the best way to let the city and developers know that people do care, and want better architecture in this city.
By the way, according to http://www.downtownyonge.com/Development_fact_sheet the architect of this dud is : Baldwin and Franklin Architects.
Last Monday, I called Penequity to complain about this fiasco. I was only able to get to the receptionist this time, but I will try again next week.

FYI: PenEquity 416-408-3080

From: http://www.penequity.com/Pages/dynamic.html
Mr. Glenn A. Miller, Chairman
Mr. David V. Johnston, President & Chief Executive Officer
Mr. Dino DiVito, Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
*Mr. Douglas L. Peters, Vice President of Planning & Construction*
*Mr. Lawrence J. Burke, Vice President, Planning & Construction*
Mr. Leger Xavier, Vice President, Leasing & Marketing
Ms. Stacey Lenathen, Vice President, Property Management
*Mr. Timothy J. Conway* ("has served as Director of Financing at PenEquity Management Corporation for the past 6 years. He is currently Vice President of PenEquity’s newly formed media division, Metropolis Media, which is responsible for the development and implementation of outdoor signage and digital broadcasting systems")

Let's not blame the engineers either.

Engineers do as they are told.

This structure is what it is - crass and ugly. Perfect for this intersection. To expect more from it is pretty foolish.

It would be more foolish to design a spectacular structure, and then hide it behind some crappy signs and LCDs.

As for the complaints about the implementation of the design, have at it. Shoddy work is never acceptable. I get that beef.

It wasn't my intention to blame engineers either. I apologize if that is how it was taken. I have to disagree vehemently that simply because the nature of this area is intense commercial advertisement, that it needs to be ugly or crass.

It is easy for capitalist excess to lend itself to vulgarity since that is what we usually get. That doesn't mean a better outcome is too much to ask for. This development had the potential to marry the intensity of this type of commercialism with sophisticated architecture. The result could have been extraordinary and mesmerizing.

What we got was a poorly thought out grouping of sub par signage, on a building that was a complete after thought. This project was doomed as soon as they deemed the building's design secondary since it would be covered with screens. This logic was seriously flawed. You design a stunning piece of architecture that accommodates screens, you don't simply erect a skeleton to hang them on.

i can't see how penequity allowed future shop to put their staff room and hallway along the square. it completely contradicts their assertion that corporations should spend major $ to advertise on the square because of its prime exposure. if i was a corporation looking to advertise i'd say, "why should i pay a lot to advertise here? look at what future shop is doing with their square exposure. clearly it's of no value."

complain..whine...complain some more, whine, cry. then whine some more.

You guys are gonna run through the world's supply of Kleenex.

complain..whine...complain some more, whine, cry. then whine some more.

You guys are gonna run through the world's supply of Kleenex.

'Tis the nature of the boards.

I don't see the need (nor do I have a desire) for a.) stunning architeture at every corner of the city or b.) at this particular intersection.

The ugliness of TLS will not matter, nor should it matter over time, because a.) newer, better adds will cover most of the facade and b.) it should organically become a destination for the general populus (the majority of whom could care less about vented shafts or faux fans)

well the inside looks like crap too...

well the inside looks like crap too...


Bare drywall usually looks like crap....

Unless of course your talking about designer bare drywall...which is a totally different story...

:ohno:

^^
The overall quality of this development inside and out leaves a LOT to be desired. It is obvious to everyone that the building is not completely finished, but it is finished enough to reveal the poor design and craftmanship. There is no point in trying to cover the sun with one finger.

PS. To anyone that thinks this building is OK: Have you travelled? Have you been to London, Tokyo, New York, Paris and seen the quality of comparable developments?

PS. To anyone that thinks this building is OK: Have you travelled? Have you been to London, Tokyo, New York, Paris and seen the quality of comparable developments?

I've been to those cities - although none of them in the past few years (will be in NYC shortly however).

Do I think TLS ranks among the top of these kind of "developments" ? No.

Howeve the places in other cities have evolved over the years. I think minus the large video screen and perhaps the trivision, the other ads at TLS are pretty poor - but I think over time, companies will realize and recognize the value of advertising at TLS and newer, better billboards/led screens/whatever.

I do agree that the craftmanship is lacking in certain areas but IMO, for this kind of development, it isn't as important.

I think minus the large video screen and perhaps the trivision, the other ads at TLS are pretty poor - but I think over time, companies will realize and recognize the value of advertising at TLS and newer, better billboards/led screens/whatever.

I do agree that the craftmanship is lacking in certain areas but IMO, for this kind of development, it isn't as important.

Exactally my thoughts. This isn't about being a remarkable piece of architecture, its, for lack of a better term - a picture frame for advertisements. And while it is still lackluster in that regard, fixing it and expanding upon it won't be too difficult in the future.

A tower on top would certainly have been a good thing, however. Perhaps it is possible to demolish the parking garage within, and build something there?

^^ Generally agree with these cats.

^^
The overall quality of this development inside and out leaves a LOT to be desired. It is obvious to everyone that the building is not completely finished, but it is finished enough to reveal the poor design and craftmanship. There is no point in trying to cover the sun with one finger.

PS. To anyone that thinks this building is OK: Have you travelled? Have you been to London, Tokyo, New York, Paris and seen the quality of comparable developments?

Travelled enough to know and see that all the cities above have their share of crap (well, can't be absolute for Tokyo, but I am sure it does).

Also travelled enough to know that "you can't block out the sun with your finger" is a favourite expression in Cuba.

I agree that we should have high standards, but I am not delusional. There will be stuff that is not up to snuff. Plus, we need a place for all the cheese eaters to go, and say "wow". That's all this is. Dundas Square is going to be wildly successful IMO. It already is.

It wasn't my intention to blame engineers either. I apologize if that is how it was taken. I have to disagree vehemently that simply because the nature of this area is intense commercial advertisement, that it needs to be ugly or crass.

It is easy for capitalist excess to lend itself to vulgarity since that is what we usually get. That doesn't mean a better outcome is too much to ask for. This development had the potential to marry the intensity of this type of commercialism with sophisticated architecture. The result could have been extraordinary and mesmerizing.

What we got was a poorly thought out grouping of sub par signage, on a building that was a complete after thought. This project was doomed as soon as they deemed the building's design secondary since it would be covered with screens. This logic was seriously flawed. You design a stunning piece of architecture that accommodates screens, you don't simply erect a skeleton to hang them on.

I was referring to Urban's post, and didn't read you as insulting our ring fingered friends.

As for your post, I would love this to be what you are calling for, but am not worked up about it anymore (if you look back at some of my posts on this thread, my thoughts are all over the map).

I also think it is great that you have high standards With more people like you, we will raise the bar.

But also remember that we all have different taste. For example, those spires you posted recently are terrible IMO. And hey, there is no accounting for taste.

Travelled enough to know and see that all the cities above have their share of crap (well, can't be absolute for Tokyo, but I am sure it does).

Also travelled enough to know that "you can't block out the sun with your finger" is a favourite expression in Cuba.

I agree that we should have high standards, but I am not delusional. There will be stuff that is not up to snuff. Plus, we need a place for all the cheese eaters to go, and say "wow". That's all this is. Dundas Square is going to be wildly successful IMO. It already is.

Obviously, all cities have their share of crap. However, with few exceptions, Toronto is not known to have great quality architecture. That is due to a number of factors, including the fact that the city's biggest growth spurt occurred during the 50's, 60's and 70's decades that produced not necessarily the best architecture, quite evident throughout the city. So in a way, the current building boom in which we are, provides an amazing chance to reverse that, and every new building is an opportunity to create a different architectural and urban paradigm for the city; especially at such prominent location. Being complacent about poor design is something Toronto cannot afford anymore.

PS: That expression is quite common in all spanish speaking countries, not just Cuba.

PS: That expression is quite common in all spanish speaking countries, not just Cuba.

Sure. But that's where I heard it first. And when I heard it, it was in Spanish.

Obviously, all cities have their share of crap. However, with few exceptions, Toronto is not known to have great quality architecture. That is due to a number of factors, including the fact that the city's biggest growth spurt occurred during the 50's, 60's and 70's decades that produced not necessarily the best architecture, quite evident throughout the city. So in a way, the current building boom in which we are, provides an amazing chance to reverse that, and every new building is an opportunity to create a different architectural and urban paradigm for the city; especially at such prominent location. Being complacent about poor design is something Toronto cannot afford anymore.

Or to turn that argument around, once 50's, 60's and 70's architecture is back in vogue, Toronto will be considered a grand town.

Some of our best material comes from those decades.

I might go further and say that it has been down hill since then.

Oh, heck, let's get rid of the might. It has been down hill since then.

It is quite odd that people have bought so much into corporate marketing schemes that we now crave as many huge advertisement billboards as possible.

...the overall craftsmanship is pathetic.

I reiterate.. whoever thought that stationary ventilation shaft fans were a nice touch should be shot.

Their body should be burned in Dundas Square. The ashes should then be loaded into the next rocket headed for outer space and released when they are far enough away from our planet. As the ashes float around aimlessly (like his creative mind) a meteor should come out of nowhere and smash them into unrecognizable particles that will eventually drift into the sun.

Tough crowd. You gon' burn some witches while you're at it? :tongue3:

It is quite odd that people have bought so much into corporate marketing schemes that we now crave as many huge advertisement billboards as possible.

Its not about wanting to see products being advertised, it is about visual stimulation. I'd much prefer to see bright, colourful, beautiful/gaudy art displays take the place of advertisements, but sadly, that is beyond unrealistic to expect something like that...sooo, advertising it is!

Its not about wanting to see products being advertised, it is about visual stimulation. I'd much prefer to see bright, colourful, beautiful/gaudy art displays take the place of advertisements, but sadly, that is beyond unrealistic to expect something like that...sooo, advertising it is!

I'm absolutely certain that many would prefer advertisement billboards over beautiful art displays. In my opinion, no one will be satisfied until Dundas Square is the exact xerox of Times Square or Piccadilly Circus. It's also ironic how many people want Toronto to be original yet they go on to suggest that we should follow the model of the New York, Tokyo, London and Paris.

Just my two cents.

I'm absolutely certain that many would prefer advertisement billboards over beautiful art displays.

By art I don't mean some pretty landscape paintings or lame statues, I'm thinking more along the lines of modern, street art-esque with an advertisement-like visual impact. Perhaps I should post I a few pictures of the type of thing I mean?


It's also ironic how many people want Toronto to be original yet they go on to suggest that we should follow the model of the New York, Tokyo, London and Paris.

Yes, the hypocrisy present among the Torontonian self-loathers can be quite laughable sometimes.

I'm absolutely certain that many would prefer advertisement billboards over beautiful art displays. In my opinion, no one will be satisfied until Dundas Square is the exact xerox of Times Square or Piccadilly Circus. It's also ironic how many people want Toronto to be original yet they go on to suggest that we should follow the model of the New York, Tokyo, London and Paris.

Just my two cents.

Sometimes I wonder about some people. It is not about following others' models but to be aware that we don't exist in a vacuum; that there are others who are doing things or have done things before us and that they have done it well. Our aim should be to be at least as good, and hopefully better. To be original in our own mediocrity is not what Toronto deserves for the future, in spite of those who advocate mediocrity in this forum and elsewhere.

tri-vision is working.....!

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/voiceofreality/IMG_0077.jpg

posted by VoiceofReality over at UT

I was referring to Urban's post, and didn't read you as insulting our ring fingered friends.

As for your post, I would love this to be what you are calling for, but am not worked up about it anymore (if you look back at some of my posts on this thread, my thoughts are all over the map).

I also think it is great that you have high standards With more people like you, we will raise the bar.

But also remember that we all have different taste. For example, those spires you posted recently are terrible IMO. And hey, there is no accounting for taste.

Fair enough. I have little issue with differences in tastes. Indifference is another matter.

As far as this building goes, I have to agree with you. Many of us have aired our observations, but you reach a point where criticism becomes pointless. It's a done deal.

Thank you for the compliment.

What are those ads in between the screens? They look like they're advertising gray, steel siding... Oh wait, those are the horrific gaps that almost equal the adds in total exposed space..

Everything up there really should be a television screen. What's the use of stationary ads? People can buy 150 inch screens for their homes now, you'd think they could afford to put more than one up here. Especially considering they could make more profit from cycling ads on a Giant TV billboard.

Toyko, London, New York all have their fair share of crap. The difference is they also have their fair share of amazing, quality buildings!!!

What are those ads in between the screens? They look like they're advertising gray, steel siding... Oh wait, those are the horrific gaps that almost equal the adds in total exposed space..

Everything up there really should be a television screen. What's the use of stationary ads? People can buy 150 inch screens for their homes now, you'd think they could afford to put more than one up here. Especially considering they could make more profit from cycling ads on a Giant TV billboard.

1.) There are still two more ads to go. One of which will be a long vertical ad (or 3 ads) that will go over those long ducts that will cover up a lot of the empty space.
Personally, I have no issues with the spacing between the existing ads.

2.) The 150 inch screen was JUST annouced at CES 2008 and it is hardly a mainstream item. It is supposed to be released in 2009 and cost $100K+. That thing is a physical beast and shipping restrictions/costs and house size limits means that it will not become a mainstream item.

3.) Companies pay for ad space, so they obviously see the merit in spending money for backlit ads and thus far PenEquity is providing ad space that their clients are asking for. In a few years, maybe there will be more demand and the ads/types of signage will change. That is the "beauty" of this kind of structure ...

Looking at that picture, I think this might turn out to be ok depending on a few things:

- I really hope we get a nice vertical sign to go over the ducts and I hope it is either a.) one BIG sign or b.) white backlit. There is far too much white.
- I hope the Toronto Life signage will be similar to the latest renderings. I'm a bit surprised that they weren't one of the first things to go up. IMO, as per the render, it adds to the "kitsch" aesthetic and more importantly it's not white backlit.
- The retail signage will go up (AMC/Jack Astors/etc).

My biggest peeves with the development besides taking an eternity to get going are:
- the small screens around the giant video screen. I don't like the fact that there are two rows on one side and just one on the other.
- the removal of the electronic ticker in favour of the smaller Sharp sign
- the cheapening of the last big sign (over the ducts) from concave to flat.

My biggest peeves with the development besides taking an eternity to get going are:
- the small screens around the giant video screen. I don't like the fact that there are two rows on one side and just one on the other.
- the removal of the electronic ticker in favour of the smaller Sharp sign
- the cheapening of the last big sign (over the ducts) from concave to flat.

please, please, please let's not forget the atrocious placement of future shop's hallway and staff room. i've never, ever seen an architect put the interior "guts" of a building on display like that. and to have this at yonge & dundas is just...honestly, i just get so pissed when i think about this. it's a royal fuck you to the square and the building.

^^
I agree.

please, please, please let's not forget the atrocious placement of future shop's hallway and staff room. i've never, ever seen an architect put the interior "guts" of a building on display like that. and to have this at yonge & dundas is just...honestly, i just get so pissed when i think about this. it's a royal fuck you to the square and the building.

I agree. There are quite a few things wrong with that Futureshop location.

Everything up there really should be a television screen. What's the use of stationary ads? People can buy 150 inch screens for their homes now, you'd think they could afford to put more than one up here. Especially considering they could make more profit from cycling ads on a Giant TV billboard.

Patience my child, in time those things you mention will happen.

It's also ironic how many people want Toronto to be original yet they go on to suggest that we should follow the model of the New York, Tokyo, London and Paris.

Just my two cents.

Totally get your point but also think that Toronto is absolutely original.

Unfortunately, the world is full of cheese eaters, and what ends up happening is that all the places where cheese gets eaten start to look the same. So to say that Toronto is following other city models is not fully accurate IMO. It is just the market trying to deliver its cheese.

So, instead of complaining about the cheese, time is better spent complaining about the cheese eaters (or mocking then, which is one of my favourite ways to pass time).

Travelled enough to know and see that all the cities above have their share of crap (well, can't be absolute for Tokyo, but I am sure it does).

Also travelled enough to know that "you can't block out the sun with your finger" is a favourite expression in Cuba.

I agree that we should have high standards, but I am not delusional. There will be stuff that is not up to snuff. Plus, we need a place for all the cheese eaters to go, and say "wow". That's all this is. Dundas Square is going to be wildly successful IMO. It already is.

Well you don't have to leave the city to see better signage applied to a building. S/W Yonge and Bloor has signage with a bit of flare. I'm not saying it's a gem.

But they've put some consideration into the frame.

Y&D have simply slapped billboards on a wall. They have to look somehow incorporated into the larger structure.

please, please, please let's not forget the atrocious placement of future shop's hallway and staff room. i've never, ever seen an architect put the interior "guts" of a building on display like that. and to have this at yonge & dundas is just...honestly, i just get so pissed when i think about this. it's a royal fuck you to the square and the building.

... my concern is Future Shop WILL fix this - and black out the windows!

The store could have been so much better laid out. The TV's should be where the computers are (dark part of the store) and the computer section should be where the staff room/tv area is (bright) with views of the square.

I like Cheddar, and Monterey Jack, and Brie, and Gouda, and Parmesan, and...

I think in a way the whole area taken together is impressive. Not architectually of course, but I've talked to a couple of people who have visited Toronto for their first time and they were all awestruck for a couple of seconds standing at the intersection of Yonge and Dundas. Even people in the suburbs who have lived in Toronto for years, started to look at Toronto in a different light.

Toronto is not Paris, London or New York and never will be, so get over it!! Stop this endless comparison between Toronto and city X because Toronto will always seem to come up short. Toronto is Toronto!

Most people also don't care how the inside of a Future looks like. Honestly who cares? Even if it was beautiful, I would never shop there.

I've never seen such a tough crowd, it's as if in your minds Toronto was headed for failure before it was even built. I think few cities would withstand this amount of constant barrage. Toronto is a city still in the process of unpacking, give it some time.

^^ Call me weird, but I don't think Toronto comes up short.

There are things about Toronto that are sooo much better that the cities you have listed. One example is that some 24 year old with a reasonably good job can afford a condo downtown. Another is a single mom in social housing, downtown. Or and artist that isn't being bank rolled by his wealthy family. These are people that make a city interesting and fun to live in. A rich man's museum/playground does not excite me very much.

1.) There are still two more ads to go. One of which will be a long vertical ad (or 3 ads) that will go over those long ducts that will cover up a lot of the empty space.
Personally, I have no issues with the spacing between the existing ads.

2.) The 150 inch screen was JUST annouced at CES 2008 and it is hardly a mainstream item. It is supposed to be released in 2009 and cost $100K+. That thing is a physical beast and shipping restrictions/costs and house size limits means that it will not become a mainstream item.

3.) Companies pay for ad space, so they obviously see the merit in spending money for backlit ads and thus far PenEquity is providing ad space that their clients are asking for. In a few years, maybe there will be more demand and the ads/types of signage will change. That is the "beauty" of this kind of structure ...

Looking at that picture, I think this might turn out to be ok depending on a few things:

- I really hope we get a nice vertical sign to go over the ducts and I hope it is either a.) one BIG sign or b.) white backlit. There is far too much white.
- I hope the Toronto Life signage will be similar to the latest renderings. I'm a bit surprised that they weren't one of the first things to go up. IMO, as per the render, it adds to the "kitsch" aesthetic and more importantly it's not white backlit.
- The retail signage will go up (AMC/Jack Astors/etc).

My biggest peeves with the development besides taking an eternity to get going are:
- the small screens around the giant video screen. I don't like the fact that there are two rows on one side and just one on the other.
- the removal of the electronic ticker in favour of the smaller Sharp sign
- the cheapening of the last big sign (over the ducts) from concave to flat.

What about the Toronto Life signs? There's supposed to be one on the Yonge St. side on the long vertical sign that had the Future Shop ad. Then on top of the building facing the square - shouldn't there be a title sign there too and what about all the other little finishes on the roof?

I think in a way the whole area taken together is impressive. Not architectually of course, but I've talked to a couple of people who have visited Toronto for their first time and they were all awestruck for a couple of seconds standing at the intersection of Yonge and Dundas. Even people in the suburbs who have lived in Toronto for years, started to look at Toronto in a different light.

Toronto is not Paris, London or New York and never will be, so get over it!! Stop this endless comparison between Toronto and city X because Toronto will always seem to come up short. Toronto is Toronto!

Most people also don't care how the inside of a Future looks like. Honestly who cares? Even if it was beautiful, I would never shop there.

I've never seen such a tough crowd, it's as if in your minds Toronto was headed for failure before it was even built. I think few cities would withstand this amount of constant barrage. Toronto is a city still in the process of unpacking, give it some time.

I pretty much agree... I ride my bike past that intersection every day, and
it is endless entertainment watching the crowds gawk around with their mouths open! The corner is a huge success.
I have never seen such a tough crowd, either. We all want to strive and push for better for our town, but somewhere along the way balance has been lost, and the thirst for failure has taken over. Do you think that deep down Canadian society has a bit of a fear of success?

I pretty much agree... I ride my bike past that intersection every day, and
it is endless entertainment watching the crowds gawk around with their mouths open! The corner is a huge success.
I have never seen such a tough crowd, either. We all want to strive and push for better for our town, but somewhere along the way balance has been lost, and the thirst for failure has taken over. Do you think that deep down Canadian society has a bit of a fear of success?

Agree aswell. I love the intersection and I think TLS is just fine the way it is. People here are too critical sometimes.

I think the TLS building is a missed opportunity, but basically its main purpose is the south advertising wall, which fits in perfectly with the Square as a whole. It is a weak link, but the Square as
a whole is a smashing success.

What about the Toronto Life signs? There's supposed to be one on the Yonge St. side on the long vertical sign that had the Future Shop ad. Then on top of the building facing the square - shouldn't there be a title sign there too and what about all the other little finishes on the roof?

? I mentioned that I hope the Toronto Life signs (which have yet to be installed) will stay true to the latest rendering.

BTW, those extra finishes on the roof have been removed ever since they changed the "render signage" to make it Toronto Life square and not Metropolis.

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/293729

We don't deserve this horrorchitecture

Jan 14, 2008 04:30 AM
Christopher Hume

Under any circumstances, the new Toronto Life Square would be a disappointment, but given its particular history, it's doubly so.

In case you hadn't noticed, the "square" is the nasty dark grey bunker that now occupies the northeast corner of Yonge and Dundas Sts. It looms over one of the city's most important intersections with all the charm of a high-security prison. Big, bulky, busy and boring to the last rivet, it is a building untouched by architecture, or any other civic concern for that matter.

If this weren't injury enough, the insult lies in the fact that the complex was built on prime real estate expropriated by the city back in the late 1990s for the purpose of revitalizing the neighbourhood. But even before this galactic coal-carrier is finally finished later this year, it's clear it will add little to the area, except its sheer bulk.

And as for the contents of this lumpen excuse for a building, they will include Future Shop, Shoppers Drug Mart, AMC Theatres, as well as the inevitable Tim Hortons.

How exciting is that?

What makes it all so laughable is that Toronto Life Square likes to pass itself off as this city's answer to Times Square in New York. That might lead one to expect noisy crowds, commercial kitsch and vertigo-inducing video ads, all of which can be fun in small doses once or twice a decade. Instead, we get a building so dead and inert, one feels uncomfortable walking past it.

Since the project was launched all those years ago, a lot has happened in the area. Yonge-Dundas Square opened in 2003 and has become a genuine civic space. Always under intense pressure to pay its way, the square has even started to make money.

Recently, Citytv announced it will take over the former Olympic Torch building on the east side of the square, a move that will generate activity.

"Citytv could be adventurous in its use of the square," notes its co-designer, architect James Brown. "They could appropriate it so the square would become a studio."

As for Toronto Life Square, the best hope is that much of the unrelieved grey of its surfaces will eventually be hidden beneath the advertising that will provide whatever identity it has. Indeed, the building might best be understood as an armature for video screens, billboards and the like.

There's no shame in background buildings – that's what most urban structures are – but they need to be well designed, decently appointed and, above all, part of the larger whole. At Yonge and Dundas, they also need to define the square, which is, after all, an open space surrounded by buildings.

Unfortunately, Toronto Life Square (whose original name, Metropolis, made a lot more sense), looms over the square ominously, too big for the corner and barely contained within its site.

The industrial references – exterior fans and exposed air ducts – seem singularly inappropriate in this context. If the designers were going for a Pompidou Centre-like mechanical aesthetic, which could have been fun, they failed. Perhaps because of the grey exterior, which some might see as urban camouflage, and the easy awkwardness of its utilitarianism, the building takes on a strangely military quality. It could be a post-apocalyptic battlefield headquarters, or something built for the permanent warfare envisioned by Orwell in 1984.

But smothered in advertising, corporate logos and the clutter of commercial branding, the building will be largely invisible. Just as well, too; its appearance is a painful reminder of how low architectural standards are in Toronto. The developer, PenEquity, has committed not just an offence against good taste, but a crime against urbanity.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Hume can be reached at chume@thestar.ca

I think the TLS building is a missed opportunity, but basically its main purpose is the south advertising wall, which fits in perfectly with the Square as a whole. It is a weak link, but the Square as
a whole is a smashing success.

Yes, that sums it up well. They could have done so much better, but there is no denying the success of the square. It's fantastic. I'd love another 2-3 major squares downtown. Not duplicates, but each with it's own style and character.

I love that small tiny public space east of the Bay-Adelaide tower being constructed. It's right across from the southern flank of the Bay store. I use it often in the same manner as I use Dundas Square. It's a great spot to take in the city in a peaceful relaxing environment. Read, drink coffee, meet friends, and there's even a water feature. Does anyone know if we'll be losing it?

Yes, that sums it up well. They could have done so much better, but there is no denying the success of the square. It's fantastic. I'd love another 2-3 major squares downtown. Not duplicates, but each with it's own style and character.

I love that small tiny public space east of the Bay-Adelaide tower being constructed. It's right across from the southern flank of the Bay store. I use it often in the same manner as I use Dundas Square. It's a great spot to take in the city in a peaceful relaxing environment. Read, drink coffee, meet friends, and there's even a water feature. Does anyone know if we'll be losing it?

Are you talking about Cloud Gardens?
I believe that there is money to rejuvenate this park from the B-A developers.
It needs it. As far as I know it will be preserved.

The Fume missed his chance to invent a good new word, should have been HORRITECTURE, not HORRORCHITECTURE. :lol:

Not sure where to post this...

Breakfast Television just announced that it will be airing live from the former Olympic Spirit building on Friday!

Christopher Hume just reiterated, rather nicely, what I said in previous posts.
Thanks.

I thought the exposed air ducts are being covered by a big ad? If not then they should start knocking down the building as it would loook really unfinished.

Yes, that sums it up well. They could have done so much better, but there is no denying the success of the square. It's fantastic. I'd love another 2-3 major squares downtown. Not duplicates, but each with it's own style and character.

I love that small tiny public space east of the Bay-Adelaide tower being constructed. It's right across from the southern flank of the Bay store. I use it often in the same manner as I use Dundas Square. It's a great spot to take in the city in a peaceful relaxing environment. Read, drink coffee, meet friends, and there's even a water feature. Does anyone know if we'll be losing it?

I know that little park.. it is a gem. Something tells me it will be retained, as it was seriously designed, and not just a little patch of grass. I'd love to see a park go in beside Bistro 990... but I realize that will never happen as the parking lot is giving way to a new building.

It looks like the ducts are going to be covered with flat advertising, like the rest of the building, and not the more interesting curved ones they show in their rendering. Why is it every change in this building (from the rendering) is always for the worse and not the better? Pen Equity obviously cares nothing about their reputation. They couldn't have cheaped-out more if they tried. Walking along Dundas St. you can still see the ducts from the side and knowing P E they will just leave it that way. If this building ever gets destroyed in a natural disaster, I won't miss it at all.

Molly check your mailbox!! :D

I think that Hume's assesment is overly harsh.
The building was designed to be covered with ads and not an architectural showpiece in and of itself. To that end, I think it does what was intented. Utilitarian, yes, as movie theatre and Ryerson lecture hall with some retail. Alot of people should lighten up here. Just go to any suburbia and see how many movie joints are being built as architectural showcases.

I couldn't agree more with Mr. Hume's assessment of the abomination that has risen at the North-East corner of Yonge & Dundas. Toronto Life Square demonstrates once again that PenEquity has no business (nor vision) for buildings woven into the fabric of a thriving city centre. Their "skills" are best left to the monstrous malls and movie theatres surrounded by football field-sized parking lots that they built their "reputation" constructing in the 905 area code.

Not sure where to post this...

Breakfast Television just announced that it will be airing live from the former Olympic Spirit building on Friday!

Really? That's odd cuz they haven't moved yet, nor have they rebranded the outside with their logo. Are they even ready?

Well City does their live eye from Dundas Square practically every week nowadays. I'm sure they'll do it via truck, bring a few tables. There's not that much to BT anyway.

Really? That's odd cuz they haven't moved yet, nor have they rebranded the outside with their logo. Are they even ready?

It wont be permanent. They just want to introduce viewers to their new space. They will be back on Queen St. Monday morning.

I know that little park.. it is a gem. Something tells me it will be retained, as it was seriously designed, and not just a little patch of grass. I'd love to see a park go in beside Bistro 990... but I realize that will never happen as the parking lot is giving way to a new building.

Do you mean Cloud Gardens? I believe that will be kept, it's a pretty awesome park.

Photo taken today January 14, they started to install the sign covering the ventilation shafts.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2102/2194413014_aa2a0953fa_b.jpg

Are you talking about Cloud Gardens?
I believe that there is money to rejuvenate this park from the B-A developers.
It needs it. As far as I know it will be preserved.

I've actually never made note of what it is called. There's only one public space in that location, so it must be Cloud Gardens. There is a ramp that zig-zags up above the water feature.

I hope you are right about the rejuvenation. It is tiny, but adds so much to the area.

Taller:

Can I twist your arm to take some photos of it? Perhaps, you have some already? I'd do it myself, but I have no camera and zero knowledge of photography.

I'll try and remember to check it out... probably looks dreary in the winter, but it is a great looking little park, and exquisitely planned.

i love that park, too. i love it so much that i feature it quite clearly in one of the scenes of my feature film, sidekick. about half-way through the movie, the two main characters walk and talk as they weave their way down the path and past the waterfall. the scene continues with them standing on temperance on the south side of the park and again, it's quite visible in the b.g.

god, it's amazing how much the city has changed since i shot the film in 2004. there's another scene with the same two characters walking along a brick wall on the other side of temperance that was demolished as part of the bay-adelaide development.

i have another scene shot at metro hall with the huge parking lot visible in the b.g that is now on its way to becoming rbc centre and the ritz. and another scene with 2 characters peeing against hoarding on king street that has been condos for over 2 years now!

btw, if you want to check out sidekick, which features toronto as toronto, it's available at video stores everywhere. and at hmv. and on amazon. it's everywhere. and taller better likes it!