Welcome to the infrastructure thread, a thread where we post news, information and
pictures of everything concerning infrastructure in the S&B region.

EDIT

a list of more specific N&B infrastructure threads:

Airports:
Nordic Aviation Thread (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=433286)
Baltic airports - how they do? (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=121035)
Proposed terminal 4 at Copenhagen Airport (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=573793)
NEW TERMINAL FOR CPH - READY IN 2 YEARS (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=650752)

Rail:
Rail Baltica (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=201386)
Rail Baltica (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=320660) (why do we have two threads? both have been active in overlapping timeframes)
Swedish HSR (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=571442)
Fast train from Strasbourg to Arhus-Kobenhavn, Svenska, Norge !!! (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=297876)

Motorways:
Highway in Baltic countries (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=496471)
Swedish motorway projects (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=213174)
Road construction and development projects in Norway (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=151996)

Waterways:
The Herson Canal megaproject - the link between the Baltic and The Black Sea (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=500577)

By Country/Regaion:
Danish Infrastructure - Everything here (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=186107)
Infrastructure in the Baltics (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=185740)

By City:
Riga City public transport thread! (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=290603)
VILNIUS - Infrastructure projects‎ (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=481230)
At last - new subway trains (Oslo) (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=276516)
Helsinki metro network - just a little story (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=275818)

Nice looking train !! ;)


Finland have the Pendolino trains which reach speeds of 220 km/h

http://www.vr.fi/heo/junat/pendokuvat/Pendolino2sl.jpg

Nice looking train !! ;)


Finland have the Pendolino trains which reach speeds of 220 km/h

http://www.vr.fi/heo/junat/pendokuvat/Pendolino2sl.jpg
which is the fastest train in service in the Nordic region for atleast 5 more year? Italian made right?

I'll start with posting some info about Swedens first real highspeed train, "Gröna tåget" which is being developed by Banverket and
Bombardier (and a few others).

Cough...Acela....cough.... :runaway:

Most of you (probably?) know about the IC4 already... which is over 3 god dang years late!!!
It's being built by the same italian company that built Metroen in CPH.. (huge mistake by DSB :bash: )

Anyway, here's what it looks like: (photos © DSB.dk):
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y198/DLL10101/IC4/DanskTog-IC4-3.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y198/DLL10101/IC4/DanskTog-IC4-4.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y198/DLL10101/IC4/DanskTog-IC4-Badvrlse.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y198/DLL10101/IC4/DanskTog-IC4-Kkken.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y198/DLL10101/IC4/DanskTog-IC4-Sdder2.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y198/DLL10101/IC4/DanskTog-IC4-Sdder.jpg

A test drive, in Århus i believe:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y198/DLL10101/IC4/DanskTog-IC4-5.jpg

Nice pictures...

damn nice train! but I cant say the seats look that extremly comfy though ;)

/\ i think they look pretty comfy... remember, this is Denmark, they're not meant to be sat in for more than a few hours, max ;)

..

/\ i think they look pretty comfy... remember, this is Denmark, they're not meant to be sat in for more than a few hours, max ;)
that actually went through my head when writing the reply. Everything in DK is more or less commuter-ish ;)

WOW, IC4 looks incredibly good! I like it!

"Oikorata" - 63km of new high speed tracks

Since 3rd September it will be significantly easier to reach Eastern Finnish towns - the new 63km long high-speed contingent between Kerava and Lahti will be opened. "Oikorata" allows the max speed of 220km/h.

http://www.rhk.fi/oikorata/maisema_kauklamp_iso.jpg

http://www.rhk.fi/oikorata/maisema_ljokil_iso.jpg

New railway tunnel between Helsinki and Tallinn?

The whole project would cost something between 1,3 and 2,1 million eur. After all it's not so much - for comparison: the western extension to Helsinki metro is calculated to cost something between 390 and 450 million eur.

In 2002 1,3 tons of freight and 6,1 passengers were transported between Helsinki and Tallinn. For comparison it would be interesting to know the analogous numbers of Copenhagen and Malmö before the Öresundbron was built?

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/1029/hkitaltunneli8bv.jpg

Option 1: Helsinki-Ruoholahti-Rohuneeme-Maardu-Tallinn
- total lenght 105km (83km in tunnel)

Option 2: Helsinki-Masala-Porkkala-Rohuneeme-Maardu-Tallinn
- total lenght 120km (63km in tunnel)

But I'm afraid they will end up to train ferries.

But that 220 km/h speed is only in paper. The railtracks are not in good enough condition to drive that speed except only in some places.

Yep. VR (=Varkaiden rautatiet ;)) loaded the last decade to develop the train furniture. Now we have quite good trains but the track network needs some development to be "Western European class". So we have to wait a few more decades.

I am not sure that tunnel is a good idea in a long term! Firstly there isn't so many people living in finland and estonia, about 7mln altogether, secondly there's an alternative growing number of low-cost airlines moving to this region, and thirdly it would probably be like the "eurostar" tunnel, which is making losses at the moment!...I say go for a bridge!

WOW, IC4 looks incredibly good! I like it!
sure, they look good, but those idiots can never seam to get them build. It has got to be one of the worst run companies ever, and im pretty sure the danes are the only once stupid enough to deal with them, even after we got screwed with the metro....

what was it George Bush said or wanted to say "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, sham on me..,"

Oh, also, there was a fire in one of the tunnels under Storebælt last night, and the track is still closed...

i think you mean Billion euros ;)
if it was 1-2 mio euros something id build it :D

@cphdude I think he said

Theres an old saying in Texas, i dont know if you have heard it, it goes like.. Fool me once shame on me, fool me twice, amm.... emm..... you cant fool me twice!


Btw, around 7 mio passengers were transported between Tallinn and Helsinki in 2005

Will all those new trains have only 4 wagons, as it shows in the pic?

Theres an old saying in Texas, i dont know if you have heard it, it goes like.. Fool me once shame on me, fool me twice, amm.... emm..... you cant fool me twice!
"There's an old saying in Tennessee, I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee - this is "fool me once... ... ... ... ... shame on... .... ... .... ... shame on you"... you fool me, you can't get fooled again"

"There's an old saying in Tennessee, I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee - this is "fool me once... ... ... ... ... shame on... .... ... .... ... shame on you"... you fool me, you can't get fooled again"
yeah, i know what he said, it is one of my favorite bushisms...But as I wrote, that was what he ment to say...

btw, all this train talk is making me relivemy old dream of creating a luxury scandinavian train, like The Orient Express or The Royal Scotsman, runing through Denmark, Sweden and Norway...

^^
Let's connect our railroads to the TransSiberian one then! Pure luxury!

^^nah i think we could do it just in our 3 countries. People pay a lot of money to go on these trains...

^^
Let's connect our railroads to the TransSiberian one then! Pure luxury!

Once I heard Russia and Germany negotiating about some deal conserning ICE-trains. And iirc, these ICE trains could run between Helsinki and St. Petersburg or Moscow. Now, that could be something!

Even now you can reach Vladivostok from Helsinki by switching the train only once in Moscow. But that Helsinki-Moscow journey takes some time since the border formalities are quite long. And I don't know how often that express train "Rossija" operates between Moscow and Vladivostok.

@Staff

Super ;)

Jape,
A couple of departures per week from Moscow to Vladivostok/Beijing/Ulaan Baatar I think.

New railway tunnel between Helsinki and Tallinn?

The whole project would cost something between 1,3 and 2,1 million eur. After all it's not so much - for comparison: the western extension to Helsinki metro is calculated to cost something between 390 and 450 million eur.

In 2002 1,3 tons of freight and 6,1 passengers were transported between Helsinki and Tallinn. For comparison it would be interesting to know the analogous numbers of Copenhagen and Malmö before the Öresundbron was built?

I'm a fan of that project (although there isn't any project yet).. I've always dream about a railway tunnel between these capitals. ;)

As a Lahtian I should probably report something about the oikorata.

- The tests of Oikorata-line begin this year in June -August and pendolinos are test driven overspeed of up to 242km/h.

- The opening ceremony will be held 1.9.2006.

- The number of people in Lahti that are traveling to work to another town or city (mostly to the capital region), has more than doubled in the last decade. Oikorata is expected to further support this development.

- The number of Lahti-Helsinki train tickets sold, rose 10-11% from the previous year. 40% of all travels made from Lahti head to Helsinki.

http://www.ilmakuva.net/x-pilot/images/uploads/jarvenpaa_oikorata1_290505.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d23/tomihermes/Luhdanmaki_04295_17_hires.jpg
Luhdanmäki bridge in Hollola-Orimattila border near Lahti. This 548 metre long bridge is the second-longest bridge in Oikorata-line.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d23/tomihermes/Lahtiuusi206.jpg
Train platform in Lahti... behind schedule.

www.nordiskinfrastruktur.com is a site with news and articles about Nordic infrastructure. Only in Swedish I think.

..

^ Yeah, they are going to use pendolinos. A new Z-train (Sm4) will also start operating between Helsinki and Lahti and with it the journey takes ca. 1 hour.
(lähijuna - ei hajuakaan mikä se on englanniksi - Oikoradan asemat sekä Lahden että Riihimäen välillä tulevat pääkaupunkiseudun vyöhykeliikenteen piiriin. Uutena vyöhykkeenä hinnoitteluun tulee H-vyöhyke, johon kuuluvat Lahti, Herrala ja Järvelä.)

Intercity -56min.
Pendolinos -48min.


According to the news, they actually started to use pendolinos 2 days ago in the old track. Why? :dunno:

VR and Transcontainer set up a joint venture for container transport to the east

VR Ltd and Transcontainer, subsidiary of the Russian railways, have signed a letter of intent to set up a joint venture by the end of June. The new company will market container tranport services to Russia, other CIS countries and through the Trans-Siberian Railway to China, Korea and other Southeast Asian countries.

Setting up a joint venture will intensify marketing for the container train service to Moscow which is in its start-up phase. The aim is to start a weekly service between Helsinki and Moscow this year.

There are also plans to start a fast container train service between Finland and China. The train would reach China in 14-16 days which is approximately half that of the sea route. Nowadays containers are transported via the Trans-Siberian Railway to Nahodka harbour from where the containers are transported by ship to China.

In 2005 container tranport by rail between Finland and Russia amounted to 125 000 TEU. A total of 80% of the containers was transported between Finland and the Far East. The biggest growth potential is in container transport to Moscow, China and Korea.

Transcontainer, founded on 4.3.2006, is a subsidiary of the Russian railway company OAO RZD and responsible for container transport. The company has at its disposal 47 terminals, 23 000 container wagons and 48 000 containers. In 2005 Transcontainer transported 275 000 TEU. TEU is a unit of measurement equivalent to one 20-foot container.

http://www.vrcargo.fi/english/palveluratkaisut/uutinen_paanosto.shtml

There was some story in Hesari some weeks about how a new logistics centre is being established in Kouvola specialized in freight-traffic with China and a "China town" being built (maybe just the paper getting overly exited about couple dozen Chinese moving in though). I'd copy paste that as well but you have to pay to read their stories online.

About the Helsinki-Tallinn tunnel; Yea, it's a great idea and I'd love to see it happen. So much infact that I emailed the traffic & communications ministry about it.. they didn't share the enthusiasm though :(

Kuten jo edellisessä vastauksessani kerroin, resurssit on kohditettava niin optimaalisesti kuin mahdollista. Tällä hetkellä ei edes pystytä pitämään nykyistä rataverkkoa siinä kunnossa, jossa toivottaisiin. Myöskään RHK:n suunnitteluresursseja ei voida ohjata Tallinnan yhteyden suunnitteluun, koska kotimaassa on tärkeitä hankkeita valmisteltavina. Visiossa Tallinnan yhteys on "noteerattu", koska maailma voi 50 vuodessa muuttua paljonkin. Yhteys on huomattu, mutta aktiivisesti sitä ei suunnitella valtion varoin.
Levitaatiojunat puolestaan edellyttäisivät 10- tai mieluummin 100-kertaisia matkustajamääriä Suomen nykyisiin matkustajamääriin verrattuna. Taloudelliset tosiasiat pakottavat radanpidossa arkirealismiin.
Basically she says the possibility has been noted because the world may change a lot in 50 years, but it's not being actively planned by the Finnish state.
I took a poke at maglev as well, and that they really didn't dig :D

Kuten jo edellisessä vastauksessani kerroin...
Have you been spamming her?!

Have you been spamming her?!
Just two emails :D

Alright, I'm on summer break now, so I have way too much time on my hands :D I just made my own vision for Copenhagen in the future, and it turned out quite nicely I think. It's mostly light rail, with the exception of one S-Tog line being extended.

This is the metro and the actual plans for expansions. This is what we're most likely going to see in the future.
http://www.imgcity.net/server/primary/Resize1.jpg

This, however, is what I would like it to be in the future :D The metro is there, I didn't make that, and the black lines are S-Tog, they're there already too. The rest is made by me, though. The grey line is the extension of the S-Tog out to the airport, all the rest is light rail.
http://www.imgcity.net/server/primary/Resize2.jpg

And here with explanations plus it looks more organized. I wasn't really sure about the orange line down Jagtvej, as it's basically the same route as some of the metro ring, but I think it'd be useful and I like it :D
http://www.imgcity.net/server/primary/Resize3.jpg

Copenhagen would be so much sexier with light rail :D

^^
That can be said for Malmö as well. The much smaller Bergen and Tampere is planning lightrail networks, while Malmö still only has a extremely congested bus system...

Great work - a few comments and questions though. Firstly, you are not likely, atleast not at the moment, to convince the politicians of using the light reail track. They are just too hung up on the metro.

also a few question. I see you have planed for a light rail for Jagtvej, and I dont really understand that. As you yourself mention, that line will already be covered by the metro, so in a sence that will be a double booking. I dont think that is a great use of money and i think the politicians would say the same. Also, how do you plan on making room for it there? Jagtvej is already pretty bussy, with only two roadlines. I dont see how you can fit in two tracks for a lightrail, but maybe im missing the point...

You also suggest an expancion of an s-train track to the airport, or at least to catch the track used by the "Coastline" train going to Ørestad, Copenhagen airport, and then to Malmø. I cant really see where the expancion starts from, but im guissing Flintholm?? So that it goes from ny ellebjerg to flintholm and from there to the Ørestad track? I dont really know if that is possible, nor do I know if we need another road to the airport. I agree that it will make it a lot easier for the many new apartments in Sydhavnen and around havneholmen...But i dont thing it will be the first thing to happen.

Finaly the blue line who, aside from covering things already covered, goes into the inner city and i really dont belive that will happen...

Otherwise, very good, well done...

I know about the politicians, stupid expensive metro :D Anyway, thanks for the suggestions, I'll look into it. As for Jagtvej, I know it's already covered, but it's like a corridor all through the city, but without actually going to the inner inner city. Like Ring 3, just closer, so I decided to put a line there afterall. Besides, the politicians aren't going to listen to me anyway, and this vision is slightly overexagerrated I'd say :D As for the light blue line through parts of the inner city, I was really unsure about where to put it, but decided to make it go across Kongens Nytorv. And I do know that's rather controversial and highly unlikely to happen, but what the heck.
Space for the lines is of course the biggest of the problems, and I must say I didn't take that into consideration. I'm not a qualified city planner, nor is this thing ever going to be real, but if the politicians really wanted it, I'm sure they'd think of something :tongue2:

As for the S-Tog expansion, the part from Flintholm to Ny Ellebjerg is almost completely done by now, so that's not part of my plan. I just think they should use the already existing tracks out on Amager to kinda finish off the so called Ringbanen. For people living in the southern suburbs, there's no easy way to get to Amager without having to go through the inner city, which is quite a big detour (if you're not by car, of course). That's why I think they should expand it, but I know they're probably not going to.

^^the problem with the s-train expantion is probably to get someone to pay for it. DSB has already gotten a lot of money for the Flintholm line, and to go back and ask for more so that it could be extended again, might not work. But I agree that it is a good ide with an alternative those going to amager.

The problem is of couse that the track will lead people to Ørestad. I know thats gonna be bussy in a few years, but chances are still that people need to go further out on Amager, or into it more likely. In wich case, they still need to go back in towards the city, to go out on the other site of Amager to Amagerbrogade.

In order for it to work, you would need complete new s-train tracks, complete with new staions, and a line that goes in the middle of the island, pretty much like the brown line you have described. Wth a station near bella center, people could take the metro to ørestad and then out to the airport. Not the easiest thing, but still beter then going all the way into the city. I dont know the cost, but im guessing it will be a lot more expensive to build s-train track there, both in general but also compared to laight rail. But i really like the idea.

Blue line: I dont know if there is room, but i dont like the idea of light rail in the inner city, nor do i really feel we need it, especially when the metro cityring comes. But it can be tough, cos there is not much room.

Anyways, i dont know anything about this either, apart from what i read...It doesnt really matter, we are just talking and speculating

^^
Why extend an S-train line to the airport? There is already a good express service on that line (every 10 minutes frequency or so) and it's sharing tracks with the Ö-trains to Malmö. The metro line to Kastrup will also be opened soon.

Would the S-trains share tracks with the already existing express-route AND the Öresundtrains? That isn't possible I think.

^^
Why extend an S-train line to the airport? There is already a good express service on that line (every 10 minutes frequency or so) and it's sharing tracks with the Ö-trains to Malmö. The metro line to Kastrup will also be opened soon.

As starfish mentioned, the idea was to have a cross track line, so that the people from the many new apartments being build in sydhavnen and further out, would not have to go all the way into Copenhagen Central, or Nørreport Station, in order to go to amager. But as i also mention, a line like that would have a greater chance, it if was to go to the middle of amager, insted of following the tracks from the Øresundstrain to the Airport. I agree with you that that line is already covered, and will be more so with the new metro...


Would the S-trains share tracks with the already existing express-route AND the Öresundtrains? That isn't possible I think.
Short answer is, I have no idea. But I think you may be right. Im racking my brain to come with an example of a place where the s-train and the regional or øresundstrain share a track, but i cant really think of any...Even at the undergraund stations at nørreprot and vesterport they are not the same. And I remember them talking about extending the s-train to Roskilde at some point, but they droped the idea because of costs. I guess if they could run on the same track, there would be no problem...So you are probably right, they need seperat tracks...

cphdude,
Actually, I think the all the S-train lines are comlpetely separated from all other train operations nowadays. Before it shared tracks with other trains and with streets in some places as well I think (same-level crossings), but I believe its totally separated now. That's why they call it a "true metro" now.

Great map there Starfish!

There certainly are a lot of lines, so a suggestion would be for you to give the lines different numbers showing in which order you think they should be built. I think the blue line should be line no. 1, since it covers both Søborg and Refshaleøen - both areas that are badly in need of some serious attention.

Also, I think it is a great idea to extend the s-train to the airport. Then the train would also be able to serve the southern harbour - and Taarnby station wouldn't have to be served by the express service. At Ørestad station they have made room for 8 tracks with platforms at the station, so it shouldn't be a big problem to extend the s-train that far.

However, trams really aren't my cup of tea - I've just been to Amsterdam this weekend, and trams really get on my nerves. I'm a metro-man! I think they should build a metro from the airport to Ryparken - and then continue it back to the airport over Flintholm, South harbour and Ørestad (if you want to see it then check out the link in my signature)

The tracks from Ny Ellebjerg to the Airport allready exist, and a Regional train will run this line when Ny Ellebjerg is finished. (Roskilde-Ny Ellebjerg-Airport...). So why build a S-train line?

The tracks from Ny Ellebjerg to the Airport allready exist, and a Regional train will run this line when Ny Ellebjerg is finished. (Roskilde-Ny Ellebjerg-Airport...). So why build a S-train line?
he probably did not know. I surely didnt. Has that been the plan all the time?

A company called Norsk Bane AS (http://www.norskbane.no/index_b.htm) has proposed to build a high-speed railway from Oslo to Bergen and Stavanger. The proposal has been pretty well recieved from the politicians, but the price is pretty steep: 37 billion NOK.

^^how long is that route?

^^how long is that route?

518 km by car.
-------


Norsk bane does not have much positive to say about the new double railway-track beetween Asker-Skøyen :eek:
http://www.norskbane.no/oslo_b.htm

The new tramlink for Tallinn - coloured segements. I think it can even be called an LRT, as it practically doesnt share the road with cars ;)

http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/3684/tramvai0ij.jpg

^^how long is that route?
It mentiones the part from Stavanger to Oslo being 440 km. I don't know how much it is alltogether, but I guess around 700 km. They also suggested a line from Oslo to Trondheim, around 500 km, but I don't think it stands much hope of becoming reality.

^^Okay,. Sounds like a great idea....

New traffic numbers for all larger Danish roads has been released. Quite interesting, if you're a road nerd like myself. :)

The numbers on the maps are the average daily number of vehicles (x 1000): The Maps (http://www.vejdirektoratet.dk/dokument.asp?page=document&objno=89000)

Found this excellent map of all the rail lines in Copenhagen, including Metro, S-tog, Lokalbanen, Re-lines, Ö-lines and so on.
http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/9386/byensnetbg7.gif

All the coloured lines are metro-lines, whereas the thick ones are M-lines and the thin ones are S-lines.
The light gray lines are commuter lines (Re-tog and Ö-tog).
The dark blue lines are lokalbaner (=local rails, including LRT etc.).

huge =)

I think railway tunnel between Helsinki and Tallinn is not such a crazy idea, because not only finnish and estonian ppl would use it:
Rail Baltica - a railway project is under preparation/investigation. This would link Warsaw to Kaunas, Riga, and Tallinn with a high-speed railway line. It is said to be one of the EU top long term infrastructure priorities for this region. This would mean that the tunnel would link this line further to the north with Finland. And potential users of such line are much more than only Helsinki-Tallinn travellers.

/\ Helsinki is included in Rail Baltica anyway. think rail ferries!

The tunnel would be ah-mazing, but seriously though, it's not gonna happen. Too few passengers and quite frankly, the ferries and helicopters are doing a pretty good job providing us with inter-capital (is that a word?) transit.

I believe its totally separated now. That's why they call it a "true metro" now.

Are all seperated S-trains "true metro's"? I think quite many German cities have S-bahn systems that are seperated from other traffic but they are not U-bahns.

This is how Justme explained the S-bahn concept:

"S-bahns are a different story, and these are suburban railway lines. The true S-bahn, as found in Germany pass through the city center and continue out the other side. Within the central city they may operate almost or at metro standard but they do not have to follow the same frequency levels out in the suburbs. If you look at most S-bahn/suburban railway maps, they usually follow the spoke and wheel pattern, in that they radiate out from the city center with far less complexity in the central city - this is because their main purpose, like commuter railways, is to bring people into and out of the city, rather than transit within the central core."

Does that fit to Copenhagen's S-tog system? I'd say it does. Even though S-trains can be very metro-like, urban mass transit trains for intensive traffic, they are not "metro's".

http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/9386/byensnetbg7.gif

Cool! I got inspirated by that impressive map and made this for Helsinki using similar-looking design:
http://www.jasperk.net/kaikkea/valmis1.jpg
I couldn't include all regional train lines cause many of them are simply variations of each other with minor differences. Any way, it shows that Helsinki has some city rail lines as well; A, I and M are very metro-like since they stop on every station with high frequences and they are seperated from long distance traffic. The M-line - not talking about the orange/red Metro line but the yellow city rail - was originally planned to be a part of the second metro line, so it runs on it's own, totally exclusive tracks.

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/8606/malminkartanoasema01vh2.jpg
[copyright: Miikka Granlund/kiskojarru.net]
Malminkartano station at city rail line M.

http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/5909/kapyla1xh0.jpg
[copyright: Timo Kerminen/ http://koti.mbnet.fi/kermit/Helsink2.htm]
Käpylä city rail station - see how city rail tracks are seperated from long distance traffic.

I've actually been on those red S-trains in Sthlm. There was a shortage on commuter trains here once many years ago, so they borrowed them from Denmark.
Cool ay?

Sideshow_Bob,
That is cool! Was it the older commuter train-style trainsets, or the new metro-style trains?

Are all seperated S-trains "true metro's"? I think quite many German cities have S-bahn systems that are seperated from other traffic but they are not U-bahns.

This is how Justme explained the S-bahn concept:

"S-bahns are a different story, and these are suburban railway lines. The true S-bahn, as found in Germany pass through the city center and continue out the other side. Within the central city they may operate almost or at metro standard but they do not have to follow the same frequency levels out in the suburbs. If you look at most S-bahn/suburban railway maps, they usually follow the spoke and wheel pattern, in that they radiate out from the city center with far less complexity in the central city - this is because their main purpose, like commuter railways, is to bring people into and out of the city, rather than transit within the central core."

Does that fit to Copenhagen's S-tog system? I'd say it does. Even though S-trains can be very metro-like, urban mass transit trains for intensive traffic, they are not "metro's".

While there's definately a difference between the Copenhagen Metro (only runs within inner city, automated driverless trains, ultra-high frequency) and the Copenhagen S-tog systems, both are metros by the definition.

It's just a name thing really. If the S-tog system was called "T-bana" like in Stockholm, everyone would consider the S-tog system to be a metro.
Actually, the S-tog system is more of a metro than the T-bane in Oslo (which is going to be renamed to Oslo Metro or something, soon).

Tunnelbanan in Stockholm and S-tog in Copenhagen are actually very similar in terms of coverage (mostly running in the suburbs), frequency, vehicles and operation. They resemble eachother much more than the Copenhagen Metro, which is more of a real people mover that runs exclusively within the inner city.

I've heard arguments that the S-bahn systems in Hamburg and Berlin (only those) whould be considered metro as well - but they're supposed to have really low frequency in the outer parts during non-peak times. The difference is that those cities have had U-bahns for a long time, and thus the S-bahn systems has been run like "commuter-train-metros".
Copenhagen got it's Metro-system in 2001 (?!) and the transit authorities was pretty much forced to start operating the S-tog as a real metro even before that, in 2000 I think.

It's of course up to the individual to decide when it all comes around..

Is S-tog a metro system? Is Tunnelbanan a metro system? You decide! :)

Oh, and that's an awesome transit map, Jape! I'm working on a similar one to replace the current Copenhagen map at www.urbanrail.net.

I've actually been on those red S-trains in Sthlm. There was a shortage on commuter trains here once many years ago, so they borrowed them from Denmark.
Cool ay?

Very cool! I'm amazed that they worked just like that. I mean, the Öresund trains had to be specially designed due to the differences in the power systems of the two countries.

@staff and DenverDane, Thanks!

Here's some technical info:
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-71763/dsbbn.htm

^^
Hehe, that's neat. Very old school wagons. :cool:

I passed by The Great Belt Bridge the other night, and stopped to take a photo:

http://www.mikaellykmadsen.dk/skyscrapercity/greatbelt.jpg

^^no doubt a real beauty...

Wow, great photo, mlm! The long exposure time makes it seem like there's ice on the water!

The coming sunday will be historic The metro-ring will open. This rather confusing map shows the new network (Where does line 6 end and line 4 begin? :scouserd: )
http://www.tbane.no/kart/linjekart.gif

Very nice, Northstar77!
Do you have any pictures of the new stations?

Pretty confusing that they're using two names for one line! :eek:

Sinsen is actually the only station that is brand new. Storo and Nydalen opened 3 years ago. The aprox 1km tunnel between Storo and Carl Berner is also new.

Here are some photos of Sinsen, by Aftenposten:
http://cache.aftenposten.no/multimedia/archive/00422/157852aa013_1340695_422403g.jpg

http://cache.aftenposten.no/multimedia/archive/00422/157852ss063_1340696_422404g.jpg

http://cache.aftenposten.no/multimedia/archive/00422/157852ss028_1340697_422405g.jpg

And Nydalen:
http://www.tbane.no/grafikk/topp_bilde_trapp.gif

http://trikkogbane.info/bilder/0215D.jpg

Storo(the only image I found):
http://www.dagbladet.no/download/sonytog.jpg

^^
Looks neat!

Skånetrafiken has finally started to replace Malmö's old city buses now. Totally they will replace and restaurate 180 city buses that runs within Malmö's city limits. 111 of these buses are brand new ones from German MAN.
The new buses will have surveillance cameras, full aircondition and so on - things that have been needed for quite some time.

Here's a link to Skånetrafiken's daily newsletter (with a pic of the new buses) that is publiced in Metro Malmö every day.
https://www.skanetrafiken.se/upload/Dokumentbank/Rakavagen/2006/08_Augusti/20060815_%20Malmös%20nya%20stadsbussar.pdf

Oslo gets new metro trainsets and new lines, but here in Malmö we're super happy about some new fucking buses! :D ;)

DSB still claims that the new trains from AnsaldoBrava will begin their run in 2006...

"We are in the end of the testruns" says DSB's CEO Keld Sengeløv

Also, ATP, Denmarks biggest pension fond managers, has said they would like to pump billions into the horrible state of the tracks and signal systems that is old and many years outdated, in a partnership with the public. They would exchange all tracks and signals, and maintain them for a periode of time, renting it out to DSB. This might finaly mean an update of the old tracts and systems and dramaticly reduce travel time....

Northstar: Congrats for getting the already impressive t-bane system extended! Those new stations are pretty good looking.

Btw. That map is amazing considering Oslo is slightly smaller than Helsinki. It doesn't even include the tram network (which is, iirc, over 100km long) and suburban railways, right?

Northstar: Congrats for getting the already impressive t-bane system extended! Those new stations are pretty good looking.

Btw. That map is amazing considering Oslo is slightly smaller than Helsinki. It doesn't even include the tram network (which is, iirc, over 100km long) and suburban railways, right?

Yeah, it is pretty big for Oslo's size. Line 1 could be considered a tramline/lightrail though. And keep in mind that most lines have departures only each 15 minutes. And many of the stations are quite worn down, not beeing renovated since they opened in the 60'ies, although that too is improving with a renovation-program going on.

Here are the tram-network btw, most lines depart each 10'th minute.
http://www.trafikanten.no/grafikk/Linjekart/2005_os/TrikkenOsloOkt05.png

And local trains in the greater Oslo area, or central eastern Norway.(some of those lines extend 100 km from Oslo)
http://www.trafikanten.no/grafikk/Linjekart/2005_NSB/nsb_osloomradet_lite.png

btw, Oslo sporveier are estimating that there will be 10 million new travellers each year on the metro because of the ring.

Awesome maps, NorthStar77. Is there a map for all rail lines in the Oslo area? If not, you should sit down and make on! :D

:D (Only Oslo city and closest suburbs)
http://www.trafikanten.no/grafikk/Linjekart/2005_os/SkinneOsloOkt05.png

Totally awesome map and system! Definately up there with Copenhagen and Stockholm!

I love the fact that Oslo both has an extensive metro system and an extensive tram system. Very impressive. Reminds me of Berlin. :)

It seems to me that the T-bane's main purpose is to serve the outskirts/suburbs (not so much downtown, that is), much like the T-bana in Stockholm and S-tog in Copenhagen - and that the trams do the work in the city centre. Is that correct?

It seems to me that the T-bane's main purpose is to serve the outskirts/suburbs (not so much downtown, that is), much like the T-bana in Stockholm and S-tog in Copenhagen - and that the trams do the work in the city centre. Is that correct?
T-bana in Stockholm is the main transporter in the innercity actually. And it works very well.

It seems to me that the T-bane's main purpose is to serve the outskirts/suburbs (not so much downtown, that is), much like the T-bana in Stockholm and S-tog in Copenhagen - and that the trams do the work in the city centre. Is that correct?

yeah, in general that is the case, but it depends really. The metro is best for travelling between some important parts of downtown/near downtown, like from Grønland to Nationaltheateret, for example, or up to Majorstua. On the part of the metro that runs through downtown, there are 5(or maybe 6 next week?) departures each 15'th minute, and it is very fast compared to the tram. While other places near downtown, like Frogner, Bislett, Grünerløkka, Torshov etc is better covered with tram, or bus.

While most tram-lines are shorter than the metro-lines, it is not the case for all. Line 19 Ljabru goes further south than line 4 Bergkrystallen, and line 13 Jar is pretty long too. Actually it is longer than line 4 Kolsås at the moment, as line 4 is closed from Montebello for upgrading to metro standard.

Sideshow_Bob,
What I meant is that the T-bana in Stockholm still has more stations in the suburbs than in the inner city - and the fact that it actually serves the suburbs at all, just like T-bane in Oslo and S-Tog in Copenhagen.

NorthStar77,
Great, thanks for the info. :)

Awesome maps, NorthStar77. Is there a map for all rail lines in the Oslo area? If not, you should sit down and make on! :D

That's so easy to say, but have you ever tried to make a big, well planned map? Ok, you already said you have... I have some 10 projects under way and the number is constantly growing - but so far I have succeed with one map. It's surprisingly hard to find space for the station names in the central core where the system gets denser.

^^
Agreed, it is hard to coordinate all the different lines with transfer stations and so on...

Sideshow_Bob,
What I meant is that the T-bana in Stockholm still has more stations in the suburbs than in the inner city - and the fact that it actually serves the suburbs at all, just like T-bane in Oslo and S-Tog in Copenhagen.
If you wanna count that you, you could also say a majority of stations in NYC and London are also outside the core. By far the majority of Tunnelbanans stations are within City limits, all of the Green line and most of the Red and Blue lines too. ;)

If you wanna count that you, you could also say a majority of stations in NYC and London are also outside the core. By far the majority of Tunnelbanans stations are within City limits, all of the Green line and most of the Red and Blue lines too. ;)
Well, I was rather referring to the areas of "inner city character" (ie. dense build-up). The main parts of London's Underground and New York's subway run in these inner-city areas, whereas the T-bana, S-tog and so on mainly run in more suburban-like areas (at least - there are more stations in the suburban areas than in the dense built-up areas). :)

hehe, in that sense you're right. :)

Helsinki region's city rail system will get new
Stadler FLIRT (http://www.stadlerrail.com/default.asp?n=94&ms=6&h=1&id=220&s=2) (=Flinker Leichter Innovativer Regional-Triebzug) trains. First trains will be delivered in 2009-2010. Approx at the same time the city rail network will be extended to Helsinki-Vantaa international airport (http://www.keharata.net/marja-esite_englanti.pdf).

http://www.railway-technology.com/contractor_images/selectron/Flirt-Stadler_4.jpg
source: railway-technology.com

http://img350.imageshack.us/img350/6556/stadlerpp3.jpg
source: Junakalusto OY

Our current local trains are not too old and they work really well, but they are more suitable for regional train (R-bahn) type traffic.
http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/460/sm4pasilavh6.jpg
source: Wikipedia

Some other information:
- The 74 km long high speed track "Oikorata" between Kerava and Lahti wil be opened tomorrow (3rd September). I'll make a new thread for it.
- 25th September the final decision about the big western Metro extension will be made. I have been looking forward to it for too long.

Those new trains looks good! And the "old" ones are certainly not bad either.

As of next monday, 2 Copenhagen Metro stations will change their names.

The station known as UNIVERSITETET will now be called DR BYEN. Originaly the station took its name from the planed extention of Copenhagen University that was to be located there. By the time this idea was droped however, the planing of the metro was so advanced, that it was not possible to change the name, without great costs. So the name stayed, much to the confusion of many, as the correct stop if you wanted to go to Copenhagen university was ISLANDS BRYGGE, not UNIVERSITETET.

Also the station SOLBJERG on Frederiksberg will change its name to the more known FASANVEJ.

Both station will also keep the old name internaly, to make sure there are no mistakes in case of emergency responce....

The big metro extension to Espoo is now decided to built!

Damn, I'd have a lot to say about that but sorry, I don't know English words for all those witty bureaucratic terms (have you ever tried to make a referated English translation of an endless pdf that is full of witty bureaucratic jargon?).

Anyway, this map reveals very briefly what it's all about. Two westernmost stations - Nittymaa and Matinkylä - are not visible:
http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/9338/lansimetrolinjaus1os2.jpg

I have no idea how to say it all in a nutshell. But let's try...

- This particular extension has long and very complicated history which dates back to 50's. Originally it was meant to be built not later than the mid 80's, but as we live in Finland, we have Finnish way to organize things (or to be without organizing things we should rather say).
- Approx 13 kilometers new tracks (IIRC), all completely underground.
- 7 new stations (5 of them can be found from the map above).
- The project will cost about 500 million euros (30% of it will be financed by the state).
- If all goes well, construction works might start in 2010.

Some other important public transportation projects were decided to be built:
- The half-circle light rail "Jokeri" (the ideal concept is Tvärbanan in Stockholm). It's the green half circle on the map below.
- City rail extension from Leppävaara to Espoo.

http://www.raideyva.fi/images/ve_metro.jpg

Hell yes I'm happy with these news although at the same time I know that all similar projects were built in Stockholm and Oslo decades ago.

Nya E4 öppnar till jul

2006-10-12

Av:Unt.se & TT
Södra delen av nya E4 förbi Uppsala öppnas för trafik 21 december 2006.

Det är en 24 kilometer lång sträcka till Onslunda trafikplats.
Från den trafikplatsen får bilisterna fortsätta 3 kilometer till gamla E4 söder om Björklinge.
Det innebär alltså att under de återstående tio månaderna kommer Björklingeborna att få stå ut med fortsatt genomfartstrafik.
Den samhällsekonomiska vinsten med tidigarelagd start är beräknad till 65 miljoner kronor.
Det berättade Vägverket vid en presskonferens i Uppsala på torsdagsförmiddagen under medverkan av bland andra verkets generaldirektör Ingemar Skogö.

Påverkar inte maran
Den tidigare E4-starten påverkar inte E4-loppet som går av stapeln den 15 september 2007. Loppet som går över hel- och halvmaratondistanserna kommer att genomföras som planerat och under loppet stängs nya E4 av för trafik.

Längsta i Sverige
Från Björklinge fortsätter bygget av nya E 4 till Mehedeby. Den delen ska vara klar i oktober nästa år. Då avslutas Sveriges hittills längsta motorvägsbygge, 78 kilometer för drygt tre miljarder kronor.
— Sträckan runt Uppsala kommer förmodligen inte att få 110-hastighet, när den öppnas på vintern utan högsta hastighet blir 90 kilometer i timmen, säger vägdirektör Christer Agerback vid Vägverket.
Till sommaren blir naturligtvis högsta hastigheten 110 även om vägen är byggd enligt 120-kilometersstandard.
När hela utbyggnaden är klar 2007 har i stort sett hela E4 mellan Björklinge och Helsingborg motorvägsstandard. Då återstår bara 32 kilometer utanför Ljungby i Småland.

Anyone eager to translate?

Pics from the new E4 from Mehedeby-Danmark,S.Uppsala

http://img.unt.se/bildupp/common/2006_10_3_45815_mapp/big/_bygget023.jpg

http://img.unt.se/bildupp/common/2006_10_3_45815_mapp/big/bygget009.jpg
http://img.unt.se/bildupp/common/2006_10_3_45815_mapp/big/bygget004.jpg
outside Tierp in N.Uppland
http://img.unt.se/bildupp/common/2006_10_3_45815_mapp/big/bygget006.jpg

http://img.unt.se/bildupp/common/2006_10_3_45815_mapp/big/bygget016.jpg

http://img.unt.se/bildupp/common/2006_10_3_45815_mapp/big/bygget018.jpg

http://img.unt.se/bildupp/common/2006_10_3_45815_mapp/big/bygget019.jpg

http://img.unt.se/bildupp/common/2006_10_3_45815_mapp/big/bygget020.jpg

http://img.unt.se/bildupp/common/2006_10_3_45815_mapp/big/bygget022.jpg

^ That looks pretty nice, how much is that Södra delen av nya E4 gonna cost?

Nordre Avlastningsvei

4.9km new main road, 1.2km in tunnel in the west part of downtown Trondheim. Expected cost is 1.1 billion NOK. Construction started in 2004 and phase 1 will be completed in october 2007.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/cityq/Projects%20and%20developments/NordreAvlastningsvei5small.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/cityq/Projects%20and%20developments/Ilaparkentomorrow2small.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/cityq/Projects%20and%20developments/Ila2small.jpg

Nice to see all this development in the Nordic cities!
I'm amazed how cheap the metro extension in Helsinki seems to be - the Citytunnel extension in Malmo only includes 3 stations and 17km of tracks, and will cost well over a billion Euros. :(

I'm amazed how cheap the metro extension in Helsinki seems to be - the Citytunnel extension in Malmo only includes 3 stations and 17km of tracks, and will cost well over a billion Euros. :(

It's mainly because the soil is very solid there (Finnish granite is among one of the hardest in the world). They just have to dig the tunnel and that's it. Soft soil always causes all kinds of special accomplishments. It tends to raise the costs significantly. That's the case with Malmö Citytunnel, I'd guess.

Here's another important infrastructure project in Helsinki - "Pisara" an underground city railway tunnel, similar to Citybanan in Stockholm or Citytunnel in Malmö:
http://www.rhk.fi/@Bin/1542067/pisara_lenkki.jpeg

Despite its relatively high costs - about 250 million euros - it's estimated to be really useful if not necessary:
There have been some serious capacity problems between the central station and Pasila. They are just about to raise in the future.
Currently it's somewhat slow and awkward to switch from metro to city train. Two Pisara stations (Hakaniemi and Helsinki Central) would be straightly connected to metro platforms with underground pedestrian tunnels.

250M€ ain't that bad. The Citybana that the new goverment in Swedne & Stockholm has stopped would have costed about 1.5G€ - and since they've stopped it, it won't get built for another few years. It'll still have to be built eventually tho, there's just no other realistic way to increase capacity enough.

High-speed double-decker trains such as the one pictured below are scheduled to go into service in 2008 and travel between capital Vilnius and Lithuania's 2nd largest city Kaunas. Train manufacturer is CKD Vagonka, a division of Škoda, Czech Republic. Distance between the two cities is 100km. Total of 2 trains will be put into service. Reconstruction of the Vilnius railway station is nearing completion as the Kaunas one is well underway. :cheer:
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9715/471nadr2ee1.jpg

250M€ ain't that bad. The Citybana that the new goverment in Swedne & Stockholm has stopped would have costed about 1.5G€ - and since they've stopped it, it won't get built for another few years. It'll still have to be built eventually tho, there's just no other realistic way to increase capacity enough.

This project has already cost ~1 Billion kronor, cancelling it now would be stupid...! But the hope isnt lost quite yet, other instances will also have a word on this...

Soft soil was also a big problem with the Copenhagen metro. To build the runway from the metro to the S-train, they had to freeze the soil and then hack it out...

This project has already cost ~1 Billion kronor, cancelling it now would be stupid...! But the hope isnt lost quite yet, other instances will also have a word on this...
I really hope it gets built (dug:)) asap.
One article after the election about people living near where one of the construction holes (i.e., an access-point to the underground digging/construction) being exstatic about the tunnel not getting built. Then they said they wreen't against the general idea, just that it would affect them and be oh so noicy and plenty of big trucks going thru the area their children live in. NIMBYs!!! >(

High-speed double-decker trains such as the one pictured below are scheduled to go into service in 2008 and travel between capital Vilnius and Lithuania's 2nd largest city Kaunas. Train manufacturer is CKD Vagonka, a division of Škoda, Czech Republic. Distance between the two cities is 100km. Total of 2 trains will be put into service. Reconstruction of the Vilnius railway station is nearing completion as the Kaunas one is well underway. :cheer:
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9715/471nadr2ee1.jpg


great news, but just 2 trains?

2 Weeks ago the newest strech of Danish motorway opened. 15 kms around Herning, which is stage one of the Herning - Vejle motorway. The route will be ready in 2012 (some 60 kms), but smaller streches will open in between.

Vejdirektoratet has made a newspaper and a DVD about the project, the newspaper can be read HERE (http://www.vejdirektoratet.dk/dokumentniveau.asp?page=document&objno=90196) and the movie can be seen HERE (http://www.vejdirektoratet.dk/dokumentniveau.asp?page=document&objno=90194).

A few quickies from this wet morning, and yes, it looks quite empty on such a sunday:

http://www.mikaellykmadsen.dk/skyscrapercity/herningmotorvej/1.jpg

http://www.mikaellykmadsen.dk/skyscrapercity/herningmotorvej/2.jpg

http://www.mikaellykmadsen.dk/skyscrapercity/herningmotorvej/3.jpg

http://www.mikaellykmadsen.dk/skyscrapercity/herningmotorvej/4.jpg

Finally the motorway cross with the "old" (from 2002) Herning - Århus motorway, from my flight a few months ago:

http://www.mikaellykmadsen.dk/skyscrapercity/herningmotorvej/5.jpg

2 Weeks ago the newest strech of Danish motorway opened. 15 kms around Herning, which is stage one of the Herning - Vejle motorway. The route will be ready in 2012 (some 60 kms), but smaller streches will open in between.

A few quickies from this wet morning, and yes, it looks quite empty on such a sunday:


As most of the new build highways does, thanks to the trafic mafia...But hopefully those days are over now...

But the highways are great for racing. Once i was late for my train and my dad had to drive me to the station. The speed on these highways was around 160-180 and we met 2 cars along the way...

That was fun...

/\ Considdering that we send a lot more money towards east than we get back, I don't see a problem in us getting a fraction back through infrastructure projects.

^^I dont have any problems with Jylland getting money back, but through an infrastructure that nobody uses?? That is just stupid and they could have used that money more senceble. Especially since many of the projects happend insted of infrastructure updates in the Capital area where it was really needed...

Jylland getting money is fine, but spending billions on highways that nobody uses while the Capital are is drowning in trafic is just stupid...

/\ Ah come on, it's not like nobody uses them. Og course they don't have the same amount of cars as køgebugtmotorvejen (which also is being expanded), but it is still used, though not much sunday morning. And it's also a well known fact that places with motorway has a lot bigger chance of getting new companies than places without them, so there's also a regional development factor involved.

/\ Ah come on, it's not like nobody uses them. Og course they don't have the same amount of cars as køgebugtmotorvejen (which also is being expanded), but it is still used, though not much sunday morning. And it's also a well known fact that places with motorway has a lot bigger chance of getting new companies than places without them, so there's also a regional development factor involved.

Sure that was a little exaggerated, people use them, but I dont think eough to justefy a heavy expantion like this. Køgebugt is getting a renovation, but all experts agree that it should have happend 10 years ago and that this will only help a little and for a few years...All because all the money went to jylland...

I dont know if this will bring more jobs and companies to the area, but you are probably right...But again, it could have been done differently. Again, I dont have a problem with this being done. I have a problem with it being done, insted of the places where it was really needed....

/\ Looking at the traffic across Øresund, it's not like a bridge was that needed either, but you don't hear me complain about it. And that has done exactly what big infrastructure projects most often does - bring development and jobs.

But like many other times, we will probably not agree on this issue (Cph vs. Jutland in any matter), so let's just drop it. ;)

^^sometimes our cph vs. jylland discussions are the best part od this place...:)

anyways, I dont have a problem with it,...

But like many other times, we will probably not agree on this issue (Cph vs. Jutland in any matter), so let's just drop it. ;)
At least Cph gets the big projects and funding. Stockholm... not so much. Norrland gets big railprojects that are going to shorten trip times for hundreds of people per day, projects in Sthlm that'll help tens of thousands.
/totally bitter about Citybanan not going forward as planned.

great news, but just 2 trains?


it's a start :)

great news, but just 2 trains?

I assume that 2 trains is just the first phase. Most important thing is to start the ball rolling. Unprofitable passenger train travel has been low priority for Lithuanian Railways since the independence times but hopefully this is the start of the turn-around. :cheers2:

High-speed trains to Norway

Politicians from Høyre has presented a proposal of high-speed trains in Norway. The new high-speed trains will go from Oslo-Bergen, Oslo-Kristiansand, Kristiansand-Stavanger and Stavanger-Bergen. It will take 10 years to built the 1000km long railroad, and it will cost around100 -150 billion NOK (12 100 000 000 to 18 100 000 000 Euro). 20 trains will be running on these lines 24 hours a day, and the jurney Oslo-Bergen will take 2,54 hours with a speed on about 260km/h. Todays trains take you from Oslo to Bergen about 7-8 hours.

After those 1000km of high-speed railroads is built they hope to continue with lines from Oslo-Trondheim and Oslo-Ålesund.

http://www.bt.no/multimedia/archive/00291/norge_den_s_rnorske_291247a.gif

^looks great! I hope it gets built, but don't have very high hopes.

btw. ahem, it's Kristiansand ;)

Edit: omg, they've even misspelled it on the map! :lol:

This will never happen. This is a bad idea from a Høyre politician. The only realistic high-speed trainprosject in Norway is the "Haukelibane".

btw. ahem, it's Kristiansand ;)

Edit: omg, they've even misspelled it on the map! :lol:

Outh! i misspelled it even twise! Lol to the map! :D

muster: Okay? IMO a highspeed-line Oslo-Vestfold-Kristiansand-Stavanger is much better, and important. Roughly half of Norway's population will live near such a line.

http://www.norskbane.no/graf/1reistid.gif

This will never happen. This is a bad idea from a Høyre politician. The only realistic high-speed trainprosject in Norway is the "Haukelibane".

Nah, its not a bad idea, we need it, but that proposal will probably not be completed untill many, many years. A good and realistic start is Oslo-Bergen, the rest will probably not happend the first 50 years from now.

The local paper in Kristiansand also writes about the "highspeed-train-ring" today. Oslo-Kristiansand would take 96 minutes (it takes 4.5-5 hours today)!

All members of the parliament's transport-commitee, except members from Frp, voted for forcing the railway-authorities to investigate furter the possibilities of constructing it. Construction could start as early as 2008, and completion could be in 2020.

http://www.fvn.no/nyheter/article408781.ece

The local paper in Kristiansand also writes about the "highspeed-train-ring" today. Oslo-Kristiansand would take 96 minutes (it takes 4.5-5 hours today)!

All members of the parliament's transport-commitee, except members from Frp, voted for forcing the railway-authorities to investigate furter the possibilities of constructing it. Construction could start as early as 2008, and completion could be in 2020.

http://www.fvn.no/nyheter/article408781.ece

It's almost cute to hear someone actually think they'd start this before 2009, and completeing everything by 2020 sounds like LiftPort. If you've never heard of them, they're the people who think they'll have an operational space elevator by 2018.

^hehe, yeah that is abit optimistic.

If,if, the financial side of this should not be a problem, there is the problem of where to place the line. This will be a big problem in every commune the line is supposed to go through. There will be countless of NIMBYs ready to stop it, with arguments of "verneverdige kulturlandskap" and so on and so on.. :(

I am not against high-speed train to Kristiansand or a "Train-ring". But I am against high-speed along the old "Bergensbanen". The Haukelibane must come first!


From Norsk Bane (In norwegian,sorry!):

Trasévalget
Før Haukelibanen tok form, ble det undersøkt
mange forskjellige linjeføringer, inkludert en
høyfartsbane Oslo – Bergen via Geilo og en
høyfartsbane Oslo – Stavanger via Kristiansand.
Det viste seg imidlertid at slike løsninger
ikke er hensiktsmessige.
En ny Bergensbane for høye hastigheter
måtte øst for Voss gå i lange sløyfer og bli
minst 35 km (!) lengre enn dagens trasé for å
overvinne høydeforskjellen opp til Finsetunnelen
(1.125 m) med akseptabel stigning. Å
bygge en ny bane med like sterk stigning som
den eksisterende er ikke aktuelt av både sikkerhetsmessige
og driftsøkonomiske grunner.
Alternativt kunne man tenkt seg en bane
med akseptabel stigning fra Voss rett til Haugastøl,
via Ulvik og Simadalen. Men da ville det
neppe gå tog på "gamlesporet" via Mjølfjell,
Myrdal og Finse, med store trafikktap som
konsekvens.
En høyfartsbane Oslo – Stavanger via Kristiansand
er heller ikke uproblematisk. Strekningen
er i dag 588 km lang. Selv en helt ny bane
vil bli på minst 535 km. Skal man klare å kjøre
en slik distanse på en konkurransedyktig tid i
forhold til flytrafikken, f.eks. på under 2,5
timer, vil togene ikke kunne stoppe mer enn to
til tre ganger underveis. Da vil potensialet i
fjerntrafikken i svært liten grad komme regionaltrafikken
til gode, se "Nettverket".
Oslo – Stavanger via Haukeli vil derimot
være minst 95 km kortere. Det vil tillate syv til
ni opphold underveis ved mindre enn 2,5 timers
reisetid mellom ytterpunkta. Dessuten vil fraktog
billettprisene kunne bli 20 % lavere enn via
Kristiansand.

^ Yes, maybe Haukelibanen first, that will do good for those in Oslo and Bergen, but not that good to those in between as most people live along Bergensbanen.

Welcome to the infrastructure thread, a thread where we post news, information and
pictures of everything concerning infrastructure in the S&B region.



I'll start with posting some info about Swedens first real highspeed train, "Gröna tåget" which is being developed by Banverket and
Bombardier (and a few others). The new train will be able to reach speeds up to 250-275 (300?) km/h on the curvy Swedish tracks.
http://www.gronataget.se/images/content/standard/pic2.jpg
According to Bombardier it'll be in service within 5 years :)

This train looks really cool. Almost like a Shinkansen and i can see it will have the same speed. But why is it a so called "next generation" train? Its not even a maglev.

^It's next generation compared to the ones currently on Swedish tracks. Our X2 trains from the early 90s are in fact not really that much faster than the newer regular regional trains afaik. So it's next-gen compared to the 1990s X2s.

I am not against high-speed train to Kristiansand or a "Train-ring". But I am against high-speed along the old "Bergensbanen". The Haukelibane must come first!

From Norsk Bane (In norwegian,sorry!):

Alternativt kunne man tenkt seg en bane
med akseptabel stigning fra Voss rett til Haugastøl,
via Ulvik og Simadalen. Men da ville det
neppe gå tog på "gamlesporet" via Mjølfjell,
Myrdal og Finse, med store trafikktap som
konsekvens.

The text says: "As an alternative [to the current plan, wich is 35km longer than the existing line] they could run a line directly from Voss to Haugastøl, Utvik and Simadalen (making the line much shorter). However, this would probably mean the end to trains running the existing route (via Mjølfjell, Myrkdal and Finse), causing big 'traffic-losses'"

What kind of bullshit is that? It will only surplant the existing line if it can handle the volume; and if it does, why is that a tragedy? I know Finse relys on train traffic, but it's one hotel, and that's it! Hardly worth planning national lines around..... This line isn't ment as a tool for "distriktspolitikk". It's a link between our biggest cities! Or am I missing something here :?

This line isn't ment as a tool for "distriktspolitikk". It's a link between our biggest cities! Or am I missing something here :?

I agree. Using this as a tool for "distriktspolitikk" is would a big mistake! That was exaclty what was done when Sørlandsbanen was built 70 years ago. It was supposed to bring life to inner parts of Telemark and Agder. But places like Nordagutu, Neslandsvann, Vegårdshei, Nelaug etc, is totally unknown unless you have taken the train. Sørlandsbanen should ofcourse been made with stops at Skien/Porsgrunn and Arendal/Grimstad atleast, then alot more people would have used it.

And I think a line Oslo-Kristiansand-Stavanger would still be competetive with air-traffic. Remeber, it takes atleast 1 1/2 hours from you are in downtown Oslo to the plane takes of, then it is 45-60 minutes in the air, then it takes a while to get into Stavanger too.

I agree. Using this as a tool for "distriktspolitikk" is would a big mistake! That was exaclty what was done when Sørlandsbanen was built 70 years ago. It was supposed to bring life to inner parts of Telemark and Agder. But places like Nordagutu, Neslandsvann, Vegårdshei, Nelaug etc, is totally unknown unless you have taken the train. Sørlandsbanen should ofcourse been made with stops at Skien/Porsgrunn and Arendal/Grimstad atleast, then alot more people would have used it.
I'm don't know the part down there too well, but I thought they cared less about "distriktspolitikk" then than they do now. Actually, my grandfather (who was in the military) told me the army had requested the line to be placed inland, so that it couldn't be cut off by a simple landing. I don't know if they care about that today, though (I don't even know if he was right). And I think a line Oslo-Kristiansand-Stavanger would still be competetive with air-traffic. Remeber, it takes atleast 1 1/2 hours from you are in downtown Oslo to the plane takes of, then it is 45-60 minutes in the air, then it takes a while to get into Stavanger too.
I think the main problem with making this competative is the initial investement. Those intrests will be hard to handle; just look at the Eurotunnel. When Norwegian offers tickets for a couple of hundred, they'll find it hard to win over buisness people, imo.

Here in the north Sweden they currently builiding Bothniabanan, a new railway made for speeds like 250 km/h. It will be finished 2009 and cost aproximatly 1,7 billion €.

^^
Talk about a waste money - money that Stockholm, Malmo or Gothenburg could have put to better use.

What? Isn't it time that we get something back after all this years? And its definately needed.

What? Isn't it time that we get something back after all this years? And its definately needed.
would say its vice versa ;) what have you given us btw?

I wonder the ridership numbers will be for that 1,7 Billion Euro rail.
Should be interesting to compare the ridership numbers for that 1,7 billion rail with the numbers for the Citytunnel in Malmo when it's completed (1 billion Euros).

^^ Dont know where to start. But what about 50% of all electricity produced in Sweden, enormous amount of cash from the forest and metal industry and hardworking young people moving to south Sweden. What have you given us?

They are going to finish the southern part of it, but i don't think they will build the northern part, it would add another 20 billion kronor to the project!

Haha, those are ridiculous numbers for such a 'useless' (in comparission) project.

Please note: This is primary built for freights. Yes, to provide you faster and with higher amounts of money from the north. Therefore passenger numbers will probably be low.

I'm don't know the part down there too well, but I thought they cared less about "distriktspolitikk" then than they do now. Actually, my grandfather (who was in the military) told me the army had requested the line to be placed inland, so that it couldn't be cut off by a simple landing. I don't know if they care about that today, though (I don't even know if he was right).

I've never heard that before, but it could be right.


I think the main problem with making this competative is the initial investement. Those intrests will be hard to handle; just look at the Eurotunnel. When Norwegian offers tickets for a couple of hundred, they'll find it hard to win over buisness people, imo.
I personally don't think cheap flights will exsist for many years. Once we've reached peak oil, flying will once again be something only the rich will be able to afford. Trains also have the advantage that you have time to work on your laptop during the entire travel.

When it comes to HSR in Norway, I think Oslo-Göteborg should come first. Think about it.. Oslo-Göteborg-Malmö-København-...

(Yes, I remember Linx.. It wasn't HSR)

And when it comes to "distriktspolitikk" I think roads are much better at that.. 2x2 motorways between larger cities is the minimum standard in other countries, why not here? Geology is not a problem.. Look at Switzerland, France, Austria, Italy.. If they can do it, so can we..

But of course the ultimate would be 2x2 motorways with HSR running between or next to the roadways between Oslo - Kristiansand - Stavanger - Bergen and Oslo - Trondheim, and maybe even Bergen - Ålesund - Trondheim and further north as well :drool:

Ah, one can only dream.. I'd be punished for swearing if I mentioned this in the Church of SV and SP, and the high priestesses themselves, Kristin Halvorsen and Åslaug Haga ,would deliver a hundred whip lashes to my back. We may be a first-world country, but when it comes to infrastructure we're third-world.

We may be a first-world country, but when it comes to infrastructure we're third-world.
;) I've been to Africa. Trust me: it could be worse...

^^
Talk about a waste money - money that Stockholm, Malmo or Gothenburg could have put to better use.

AMEN!!! ^^ Those are really words of wisdom!!!

;) I've been to Africa. Trust me: it could be worse...

Yeah, but still, what MaxxPower sais is very true, the development of 2x2 roads, especially E6 and a few other large roads, and of course the development of the Norwegian railroads is going to slow, Scandinavia and the rest of Europe are way ahead. I don't have much experience how much traffic cause problems in the south, but i do know if you drive to Trondheim a afternoon or evening you will be stuck in miles of traffic trains all the way from Oppdal to Trondheim, so we could use 2x2 E6 the entire way a lot there really.

And if SV and SP want less traffic and pollution we really need trains that bring us to places faster and cheaper than cars. If i go to Oslo it will be by car or plane, but if it took less then 5 hours with train and a good price i would probably take the train.

I don't know if anyone's seen the Top Gear episode where Jeremy races Richard and James from London to Oslo, but in it he points out our lack of reasonable infrastructure (well, roads) when getting to the border with a anecdotal shaking of of his head.. You'd at least think there'd be a proper road connecting two cities of ~800000 people within 300km of each other.

Ah, if only people would come to their senses so we could be annexed (http://europa.eu/) and assimilated. Then we'd be part of TEN-T, and the status map would show a big, red warning for that little country up north. And we'd put an end to this (http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Odd%20Pics%202/Eurodick.html), of course :)

Here in the north Sweden they currently builiding Bothniabanan, a new railway made for speeds like 250 km/h. It will be finished 2009 and cost aproximatly 1,7 billion €.
...and it'll be single track. My reaction to that when I learnt it was "they still do that?".
You guys should be happy it's already u/c, because the new goverment would never give the go-ahead. Just like they are trying to ax Citybanan here in Sthlm. We NEED that tunnel. The current tracks (same as in the 1870s) have been at capacity for a long time and building the "Third Track" option not only would be at capacity when completed it would also have to kill one lane on Centralbron - which has 130 000 vehicles a day...

BALTMET INFRA

Helsinki, October 30, 2006
The Baltic Metropolises, the member cities of the BaltMet, are the major hubs and junction loca-tions in the Baltic Sea regional transport and logistics networks. The transport corridors are defined by the European Commission in the TEN-T transport network, with the extensions defined by the High Level Group (draft final report 29.9.2006). As a whole, the TEN-T corridors in the Baltic Sea Region with their extensions to Russia form the backbones of the region, providing best cost-benefit value for internal and external connections of the BSR. Still, there are many missing links in the network and capacity problems especially in cities' connections to the main transport corridors.
No transport infrastructure alone is sufficient without appropriate logistics. The EU policy objective to remove transport from road to rail and to ships emphasises the importance of multimodal logisti-cal chains. BaltMet elaborates existing needs in the region and pays attention to comprehensive efforts in planning investments to the transport and logistics in the Baltic Sea Region.
Prospective strong growth of the BSR economies, mobility and transport call for continuous efforts and investment in improving our common asset, the Baltic Sea environment. The major cities themselves are key actors contributing to the state of the environment. They have a role in dimin-ishing emissions, in environmental safety policies, and in the global challenge to rapid improve-ment in energy efficiency.
The BaltMet cities have already invested a lot in transport, logistics and environment in their own territories. The national governments and the EU should find the ways to prioritise investment in projects with highest added value to the whole of the Baltic Sea Region. The overall integration and cohesion of the Baltic Sea Region should be the decisive factor in preparing the EU Structural Fund programmes for the period 2007-2013.
The following projects have been presented by the 11 BaltMet cities and discussed by the BaltMet Infra Task Force. The projects include both completed and ongoing projects as well as more initial and tentative strategic projects. Some of them are international, the others local, but all have im-pacts in the Baltic Sea Region infrastructure as a whole.


Rail Baltica

Warsaw-Kaunas-Riga-Tallinn
- TEN-T project 27
- New and upgraded railway
- 1269 MEUR

Rail Baltica link from Kaunas to Vilnius
- Construction of a new railway upto 100 km
- 260 MEUR

Warsaw-Berlin
- Upgrading of the existing railway
- estimated cost n.a.

Tallinn-Helsinki
- Rail ferry / tunnel
- cost n.a.

Helsinki-St Petersburg
- Nordic Triangle TEN-T project 12 with the extension trans-national axis
- Fast train connection, new railroad (completed 2006), upgrading of the existing railway
- 1800 MEUR

Tallinn-St. Petersburg
- TEN-T extension trans-national Northern axis
- Railway and road connection; rail and road bridges on the river Narva
- 64 MEUR


Via Baltica

Riga Northern Corridor as part of Via Baltica corridor
- TEN-T funded, the EU cohesion funds
- 1 000 MEUR

Vilnius Western bypass
- IXB corridor link with Riga direction
- Construction of a new road
- up to 133 MEUR

Gdansk – Warsaw / Katovice corridor
- TEN-T projects 23 and 25
- Rail link and motorway to Katovice
- rail 2 351 MEUR, motorway 2 754 MEUR


Nordic Triangle and the Fehmarn Belt Axis

Öresund - Hamburg
- TEN-T project 20
- Rail link and the Fehmarn Belt bridge (19 km)
- cost of railroad 4 000 MEUR, link Hamburg 1 000 MEUR and Copenhagen 671 MEUR

Southern Main Railroad Malmö-Lund
- TEN-T project 12
- Upgrading of an existing railroad (included in the Swedish railway programme 2004-2015)
- cost 217-271 MEUR

Citytunnel in Malmö
- TEN-T project 12
- New railway under construction (completed 2011)
- cost 1000 MEUR

More track capacity through Stockholm
- TEN-T project 12
- Commuter train, tunnel and stations (due to completion 2013-2016)
- estimated cost 1500 MEUR

Stockholm bypass
- TEN-T project 12 part of the E4 motorway (Copenhagen – Stockholm - Helsinki)
- Motorway connecting northern and southern regions of the lake Mälaren (construction 2008-2016)
- estimated cost 2 160 MEUR (PPP finance considered)

Motorway Uddevalla - Svinesund
- TEN-T project 12
- Part of the development and improvement of the E6 motorway between Oslo and Gothen-burg (to be completed 2010)
- estimated cost 971 MEUR

Railroad Gothenburg – Trollhattan
- TEN-T project 12
- Double tracked railroad to be developed (due to be completed 2011). On the Norwegian side, from Oslo to the Swedish border, similar investments are currently being considered
- estimated cost 688 MEUR

Let's hope even half of this stuff goes through, there's more here (http://www.baltmet.org/pub/index.php?id=53), I just posted the "interesting" part. And as a gem for the Rail-Baltica lovers ;)

3.1. The cities of Berlin, Warsaw, Tallinn, Riga, St. Petersburg and Helsinki have agreed on evaluating the practical actions to speed up the Rail Baltica project with an objective to work out an action plan for all interested cities concerned;

I don't know if anyone's seen the Top Gear episode where Jeremy races Richard and James from London to Oslo, but in it he points out our lack of reasonable infrastructure (well, roads) when getting to the border with a anecdotal shaking of of his head.. You'd at least think there'd be a proper road connecting two cities of ~800000 people within 300km of each other.

I saw that episode, and felt embarressed. But that piece of road is rapidly getting better. Since that show, we've got a new Svinesund bridge, and alot more 2x2 road, soon it's all the way Oslo-Sweden. But I agree, it should have been done 20 years ago. Oslo-Kristiansand is also sloooooowly getting better, but you can't imagine how many hours I've been stuck in congestion on that road over the years. Soo frustrating:bash:

Yeah, but still, what MaxxPower sais is very true, the development of 2x2 roads, especially E6 and a few other large roads, and of course the development of the Norwegian railroads is going to slow, Scandinavia and the rest of Europe are way ahead. I don't have much experience how much traffic cause problems in the south, but i do know if you drive to Trondheim a afternoon or evening you will be stuck in miles of traffic trains all the way from Oppdal to Trondheim, so we could use 2x2 E6 the entire way a lot there really.

And if SV and SP want less traffic and pollution we really need trains that bring us to places faster and cheaper than cars. If i go to Oslo it will be by car or plane, but if it took less then 5 hours with train and a good price i would probably take the train.
By all means, I agree. Just imagine: A new road running from Oslo to Asker would cost about 5 billion. However it saves around 20 minutes driving each way for the 50 000 who take the trip every day. Their time is worth, lets say 150 NOK/hr, it means society will save 50000*150*2/3 every day = 16500000000 NOK in 10 years.

I saw that episode, and felt embarressed. But that piece of road is rapidly getting better. Since that show, we've got a new Svinesund bridge, and alot more 2x2 road, soon it's all the way Oslo-Sweden. But I agree, it should have been done 20 years ago. Oslo-Kristiansand is also sloooooowly getting better, but you can't imagine how many hours I've been stuck in congestion on that road over the years. Soo frustrating:bash:

It's getting better, but way too slow. A decent infrastructure costs nothing compared to what it earns us in money, environment, safety and society in general. Everybody knows about the state of our roads. There's lots of reports about how traffic accidents and deaths are much lower on stretches that have been upgraded to motorway standards, but with the current "you can walk, you lazy bastard" government it's not going to get better any time soon. I'm not saying this is a problem in other countries too, but there's absolutely no political will to do anything about it here. They're doing the bread and circus thing, only we get to share a dry cookie and an old music box :)

And, IIRC, there's still a fairly long stretch on the Swedish side of OSL-GOT too that's still single track..

^ I agree with everything you said. There are parts of OSL-GOT on the swedish side that is not 2*2, that's true, but when we drove down there 2 years ago, I remember alot of road construction-activity on their side too.

I don't know if anyone's seen the Top Gear episode where Jeremy races Richard and James from London to Oslo

:)

I liked the part where he bought a packet of spunk and then when he drove across the øresundsbridge ans simply said "this is a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful bridge..."

Anyways there was a article today in Berlingske suggesting that Denmark used 200 billion kroner on more metro, lightrail, and highspeed trains...

Sounds great...

Anyways there was a article today in Berlingske suggesting that Denmark used 200 billion kroner on more metro, lightrail
In Copenhagen only?

In Copenhagen only?

Sadly no. Well, the metro was in copenhagen, the lightrail was for other big cities and the high speed train for the whole country...Though i dont know how that is possible in a small country like ours,..

I liked the part where he bought a packet of spunk and then when he drove across the øresundsbridge ans simply said "this is a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful bridge..."

Anyways there was a article today in Berlingske suggesting that Denmark used 200 billion kroner on more metro, lightrail, and highspeed trains...

Sounds great...

Great news! Wish something like that could happen here.. I think it's about time we link Norway and Denmark with a bridge too.. Or maybe a tunnel, like Britain and France? Would spell the end of weekend party trips on the "Danskeferja" (or is it "Norskeferja"?) though :)

Did you also see the episode where they drove three supercars down to Millau just to drive across the bridge? I love the episodes where they race each other across Europe.. Car vs HSR, car vs aeroplane, etc.. I know next to nothing about cars, and I don't really care about them, but I really like Top Gear because it's so well produced, and they're real men who can appreciate the beauty of a bridge :)

Sadly no. Well, the metro was in copenhagen, the lightrail was for other big cities and the high speed train for the whole country...Though i dont know how that is possible in a small country like ours,..

Well, Google Maps says Aalborg - København is 400km, so I could see why HSR would make sense there.. And if you see it in a broader context, it makes even more sense.. Imagine if you want to go from Stockholm to Berlin by HSR, then you'll have to go through Denmark (maybe across the new Femern bridge?)..

I mean, Europe is relatively small, so looking at infrastructure issues at a purely national level isn't going to work very well.. For instance, in a few years it'll be possible to go from Lisbon to Palermo by HSR, and that's going to be pretty sweet :)

Great news! Wish something like that could happen here.. I think it's about time we link Norway and Denmark with a bridge too.. Or maybe a tunnel, like Britain and France? Would spell the end of weekend party trips on the "Danskeferja" (or is it "Norskeferja"?) though :)


Here we actually call it Oslo færgen...I must admidt I have never been, but I hear good things about it...

I think the idea of a tunnel may be a long shot...Unless you guys run out of things to spend your oil money on. I Think the trafic between the 2 countries would have to be much greater. The reson the tunnel between england and france was build was that there was a real need, and a real wast of time, waiting for a ferry. If it takes an hour and a half by ferry anyways, noone cares about waiting an hour. And people who need it faster will fly..


Did you also see the episode where they drove three supercars down to Millau just to drive across the bridge? I love the episodes where they race each other across Europe.. Car vs HSR, car vs aeroplane, etc.. I know next to nothing about cars, and I don't really care about them, but I really like Top Gear because it's so well produced, and they're real men who can appreciate the beauty of a bridge :)

Thats funny Im exactly the same way. I dont really care about cars normaly and know nothing about them, yet I never miss an episode of Top Gear. Love that show, and yeah my favorite is also when they race. They showed yesterday the race from France to London with Clarkson in a car and Hammond and May in a small plane... Great stuff. I think the episode you mention is also the one where they try and escape from a Paris Parkinggarage, but has some problems with the cars being to close to the ground...

Anyways, I hope it (and Hammond) will return soon...

Well, Google Maps says Aalborg - København is 400km, so I could see why HSR would make sense there.. And if you see it in a broader context, it makes even more sense.. Imagine if you want to go from Stockholm to Berlin by HSR, then you'll have to go through Denmark (maybe across the new Femern bridge?)..

Yeah, but the problem is that there are many small stations, so a high speed train would have to stop all the time. Im not sure, but I would imagen that that would the speed of the train.

Ofcouse you could have Express trains that only stops a few places, but unless they can run on the same track as normal trains, I doubt that that will happen, since there would then be a need for 2 tracks. But If it was only one or two lines, (cph - jylland) and (femeren station - cph) and then further up...

But that would again mean great investments and thats the problem. The Danish government has just desided to spend 15-20 billion DKR. on replacing the old track and the xtremely old signals...when that is over they are not likely to spend further on a high speed train track anytime soon, unless it came with an incentment and a big fat check from the EU.

But they are pushing for more high speed trains in the EU, and if we imagened a whole new track for the 2 lines mentioned, only with stops at the major stations and then people could transfer, and the tracks would not intefear with the normal tracks...Then I guess it is possible...

I think the idea of a tunnel may be a long shot...Unless you guys run out of things to spend your oil money on. I Think the trafic between the 2 countries would have to be much greater. The reson the tunnel between england and france was build was that there was a real need, and a real wast of time, waiting for a ferry. If it takes an hour and a half by ferry anyways, noone cares about waiting an hour. And people who need it faster will fly..

Yeah, the whole tunnel/bridge thing was mostly a joke, although it would be super cool if it was actually done..

Thats funny Im exactly the same way. I dont really care about cars normaly and know nothing about them, yet I never miss an episode of Top Gear. Love that show, and yeah my favorite is also when they race. They showed yesterday the race from France to London with Clarkson in a car and Hammond and May in a small plane... Great stuff. I think the episode you mention is also the one where they try and escape from a Paris Parkinggarage, but has some problems with the cars being to close to the ground...

Anyways, I hope it (and Hammond) will return soon...

Yeah, I saw that episode too, when they went to Italy to get a truffle and see who could bring it the fastest to a restaurant in a scyscraper in London. And when they reached Lille May says he's actually not certified to fly at night :) But then they got on the Eurostar though, which just adds to the coolness of the whole thing. And the car park thing in Paris was hilarious in a slightly embarassing way :)

Here's to Hamster being back on our screens with his shiny teeth real soon :cheers:

Yeah, but the problem is that there are many small stations, so a high speed train would have to stop all the time. Im not sure, but I would imagen that that would the speed of the train.

Ofcouse you could have Express trains that only stops a few places, but unless they can run on the same track as normal trains, I doubt that that will happen, since there would then be a need for 2 tracks. But If it was only one or two lines, (cph - jylland) and (femeren station - cph) and then further up...

But that would again mean great investments and thats the problem. The Danish government has just desided to spend 15-20 billion DKR. on replacing the old track and the xtremely old signals...when that is over they are not likely to spend further on a high speed train track anytime soon, unless it came with an incentment and a big fat check from the EU.

But they are pushing for more high speed trains in the EU, and if we imagened a whole new track for the 2 lines mentioned, only with stops at the major stations and then people could transfer, and the tracks would not intefear with the normal tracks...Then I guess it is possible...

I agree that HSR would probably need to have its own tracks with fewer stations to make any sense at all.. The Femern railway (and I also imagine roadway) bridge is part of the 30 priority axes (http://ec.europa.eu/ten/transport/priority_projects_minisite/map_en.htm) in TEN-T, and with the big push for HSR in Europe, I imagine they have this in mind here as well. I think the EU probably would at least partially sponsor such a project, at least the one linking Hamburg - Copenhagen/Malmö, which I imagine is seen as an important trans-national link. The EU is traditionally very active pushing these kinds of projects, because no single country wants to bear the costs alone.

Yeah, I saw that episode too, when they went to Italy to get a truffle and see who could bring it the fastest to a restaurant in a scyscraper in London. And when they reached Lille May says he's actually not certified to fly at night :) But then they got on the Eurostar though, which just adds to the coolness of the whole thing. And the car park thing in Paris was hilarious in a slightly embarassing way :)

Here's to Hamster being back on our screens with his shiny teeth real soon :cheers: .

...while screming "I have not had my teeth done..."


I agree that HSR would probably need to have its own tracks with fewer stations to make any sense at all.. The Femern railway (and I also imagine roadway) bridge is part of the 30 priority axes (http://ec.europa.eu/ten/transport/priority_projects_minisite/map_en.htm) in TEN-T, and with the big push for HSR in Europe, I imagine they have this in mind here as well. I think the EU probably would at least partially sponsor such a project, at least the one linking Hamburg - Copenhagen/Malmö, which I imagine is seen as an important trans-national link. The EU is traditionally very active pushing these kinds of projects, because no single country wants to bear the costs alone.

Yeah, but of couse "Ze Germans" are not to crazy about the idea to begin with, so the whole project stands or falls on them...

About the "further up to Malmø and stockholm version..." Well, it guess it would depend on finding a track that could take buth a HSR and a standard train, otherwise the Oreseundbridge is going to be a problem..

Sadly no. Well, the metro was in copenhagen, the lightrail was for other big cities and the high speed train for the whole country...Though i dont know how that is possible in a small country like ours,..

I love you Denmark... :drool:

We would need more of that progressive thinking. :yes:

I love you Denmark... :drool:

We would need more of that progressive thinking. :yes:

Well this is just a sugestion from a group of engeneers...Their Guild or Union as you would have it...Politicians have said that they like the idea, but 200 billion is a lot to pull out of a budget...Still, they are fixing the tracks and signal systems for the trains, and they are building more metro and maybe even a harbourtunnel in copenhagen, so I guess we cant complain to much...

They appear to be pretty serious about that train. http://e24.no/makro-og-politikk/article1530759.ece
Pricetag: 150 billion NOK. That's serious money wherever you go...

Labour dispute continues to ram Oslo's transit system

Thousands of Oslo commuters suffered through more delays and disruption on Tuesday, after labour unrest forced the shutdown of an entire T-bane transit line. Other lines in the transit system also had problems.

The problems stem from the refusal of workers at the main T-bane maintenance station to work overtime. They claim they've "lost motivation" because of a pending move by city officials to put their services out to bid, and because of a reorganization of the transit system known as Oslo Sporveier that they oppose.

As a result, the T-bane system has a shortage of carriages in sound working order. Many of them are old and haven't been replaced yet by the new carriages now being phased in.

Sporveier officials have said that the T-bane system needs 160 carriages to handle normal traffic, especially during the commuter rush. As of Tuesday morning, 57 carriages were out of service because of the workers' slowdown.

That cuts capacity by a third. Sporveier has been trying to offer alternative bus service on many of the routes, but can't keep up with the demand. The carriage shortage on Tuesday forced shutdown of Line 3, which normally runs from Sognsvann in the hills north of Oslo, to Mortensrud in the south.

Bus service was offered from Sognsvann to Ullevaal Stadium, at which point passengers were asked to transfer back to the T-bane into town. Those continuing south to Skullerud and Mortensrud would then need to transfer back to an extraordinary bus line from downtown.

As if the T-bane disruptions weren't enough, Sporveier's tram system known as the trikk also came to a halt along Stortingsgate in the heart of town Tuesday morning. Westbound trams weren't moving around 9am, but eastbound trams continued to roll.

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1531996.ece

Labour dispute continues to ram Oslo's transit system

Thousands of Oslo commuters suffered through more delays and disruption on Tuesday, after labour unrest forced the shutdown of an entire T-bane transit line. Other lines in the transit system also had problems.

The problems stem from the refusal of workers at the main T-bane maintenance station to work overtime. They claim they've "lost motivation" because of a pending move by city officials to put their services out to bid, and because of a reorganization of the transit system known as Oslo Sporveier that they oppose.

As a result, the T-bane system has a shortage of carriages in sound working order. Many of them are old and haven't been replaced yet by the new carriages now being phased in.

Sporveier officials have said that the T-bane system needs 160 carriages to handle normal traffic, especially during the commuter rush. As of Tuesday morning, 57 carriages were out of service because of the workers' slowdown.

That cuts capacity by a third. Sporveier has been trying to offer alternative bus service on many of the routes, but can't keep up with the demand. The carriage shortage on Tuesday forced shutdown of Line 3, which normally runs from Sognsvann in the hills north of Oslo, to Mortensrud in the south.

Bus service was offered from Sognsvann to Ullevaal Stadium, at which point passengers were asked to transfer back to the T-bane into town. Those continuing south to Skullerud and Mortensrud would then need to transfer back to an extraordinary bus line from downtown.

As if the T-bane disruptions weren't enough, Sporveier's tram system known as the trikk also came to a halt along Stortingsgate in the heart of town Tuesday morning. Westbound trams weren't moving around 9am, but eastbound trams continued to roll.

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1531996.ece
Gaaah!! :eek: The flight controlers disease has spread!!
Fortunately I didn't notice today :)

Den sørnorske høyhastighetsringen:
Dobbelt så dyrt som vei

En topp moderne firefelts motorvei koster bare halvparten så mye som en enkeltsporet jernbane.

Toglinjene i ”Den sørnorske høyhastighetsringen” vil etter prognosene koste mellom 75 og 125 millioner kroner per kilometer. Dette er dobbelt så mye som en topp moderne firefelts motorvei.

Veier er langt billigere

Ifølge Mesta, statens veibyggingsselskap, koster motorveien som bygges i Østfold nå 30 millioner per kilometer. Her er grunnforholdene enkle, og på store deler av strekningen er det tofelts motorvei allerede.

Den veien som Skanska bygger mellom Sandefjord og Larvik koster 70 millioner per kilometer.

Mesta anslår at firefelts motorveier i gjennomsnitt vil koste 60 millioner kroner per kilometer. For byggekostnadene av ”Den sørnorske høyhastighetsringen” kan man dermed bygge 2000 kilometer med firefelts motorvei.

Må ha høy CO2-pris

Forskningsleder Harald Minken ved Transportøkonomisk institutt har tidligere analysert Haukelibanen. Han er skeptisk til ideen om en høyhastighetsjernbane i Sør-Norge.

- Den eneste muligheten for at et høyhastighetstog i Norge skal lønne seg, er at prisen på flyenes CO2-utslipp blir svært høy. Noen mener at CO2-utslipp fra fly er mer skadelig enn fra biler, sier Minken til E24.

Innenriks flytransport betaler i dag en CO2-avgift på 53 øre per liter flybensin.

Minken mener at prognosene både for kostnader og inntekter er for optimistiske.

- Kostnadene undervurderes, og inntektene overvurderes. Prosjektene for hurtigtog er absolutt interessante, men det må gjøres mye tenkning før de kan bli lønnsomme, sier Minken.

Trenger subsidier

I sin analyse av Haukelibanen fant Minken at denne jernbanen måtte subsidieres med 5 milliarder kroner i året. Dette prosjektet er en bane mellom Østlandet og Vestlandet over Haukeli.

Selskapet Norsk Bane har laget prosjektskissen for denne banen.

Den sørnorske høyhastighetsringen skal være en togring fra Oslo til Bergen, og langs kysten tilbake til Oslo.

Ifølge prosjektskissen er inntektspotensialet på kort sikt 5-7 milliarder kroner i året. Årlige driftsutgifter skal bli 2,5 milliarder kroner.

From E24 (http://e24.no/makro-og-politikk/article1534077.ece#AF).
__________

A article about the new high-speed trains in Norway.

High-speed trains are twise as expencive as highways.

To build high-speed trains are twise as expencive each kilometer as building a 4 lane highway. So you can built 2000km of supermodern 4 lane highway in Norway for the same price as the entire high-speed trains which are been proposed in southern Norway.

^ driving on a highway will take twice as long as the highspeed train :D

^ driving on a highway will take twice as long as the highspeed train :D

Yes, i think that article is pretty stupid. Of course its more expencive than highways. High speed trains goes way faster, and is way more green, so even though its twise as expencive its four times as good for future development than a 4 lane highway from Kristiansand to Tromsø!

That is indeed a stupid article, because what we need is both HSR and motorways. (And the comparison doesn't make sense in the first place, as mentioned) HSR can't be a substitute for proper roads, because there will always be a need for them, no matter how fast and efficient the trains are..

Cool news. Only in Swedish, but it basically says that MTR Corporation (yeah, the MTR that operates the metro in Hong Kong) wants to operate the Öresund Commuter Train traffic between Copenhagen and Malmö from 2008.
:banana:


06-11-09 KL. 15:36
SJ i nytt Öresunds-samarbete

Tillsammans med MTR Corporation - som bland annat står för tunnelbanetrafiken i Hong Kong - kommer SJ att lägga et bud på den framtida Öresundstrafiken.


SJ AB och MTR Corporation har beslutat att lägga ett gemensamt anbud på både den svenska och danska upphandlingen av Öresundstågtrafiken. MTR är ett internationellt bolag som nu vill satsa ytterligare i Europa där det sedan tidigare finns en bas i London.

SJ och MTR kommer att bilda ett gemensamt, 50-50-ägt, bolag. SJs chef, Jan Forsberg, säger i en kommentar: "Vi är glada för att nu få samarbeta med en av världens främsta tågoperatörer när det gäller kvalitet och kundbemötande. SJ har lokalkännedomen och har varit med om att utveckla tågtrafiken över Öresund. Därför kommer vi att kunna erbjuda ett mycket konkurrenskraftigt alternativ."

Jeremy Long, CEO, European Business, MTR: "Vi har bedömt SJ som en mycket stark partner med tanke på deras långa erfarenhet av Öresundstågstrafiken."

Idag är det DSB och SJ (på uppdrag av Skånetrafiken) som står för järnvägstrafiken i Öresund. DSB är den dominerande parten i samarbetet och styr tidtabeller, marknadsföring, tågens utformning och service samt är arbetsgivare för alla konduktörer på Öresundstågen.

Danska Trafikstyrelsen och Skånetrafiken är nu ansvariga för att upphandla och skriva avtal med nya operatörer från 2008. (NFÖ)

Tomorrow 10.30, Verkerhswissenschaftliches Institut Stuttgart (What a name!) presents the first fase of the highspeedtrain inquiry. I think they will recommend highspeedtrain in Norway, and go on working with second fase, which route is the best solution?
I know some people working at the parlament, it is said that there has been "a change of mind" the lasts months among norwegian politicians towards highspeedtrains. Now they think it is possible to build this in Norway! It seems like the question is not IF THEY WILL BUILD, BUT WHERE!:cheers:

This is very cool. In the news last night they said the two most likely stretches to have HSR would be Oslo - Trondheim and Oslo - Halden. I agree this would be a good start, but I'd like to see it expanded too.. Especially the Oslo-Halden one is important, connecting Oslo to Göteborg-Malmö-København-Hamburg.. I really hope this one doesn't fall through and that if they're going to do it they do it properly.. 350+ km/h :) That may be a bit optimistic, but I think they should aim for at least 300.

I'm sure they will, it's just that I can see a lot of problems when the 150 billion bill is footed. I don't think they'll go for 350 km/h, the aim for politicians is to build the railway, if it becomes in danger of being "the fastest", they'll want to avoid that, so nobody can say they're over doing it.

I wouldn't hold my breath just yet; considering how difficult it is to get 4 billion to improve E18 between Oslo and Drammen.

Besides, building HSR everywhere is not an option. This should be an ICE only. I really hope this doesn't turn out to be yet another excuse for milking urban areas for cash to keep communities that has no future on life-support.

Yeah, too bad we don't have showy politicians here. Then they'd be screaming for 350 km/h :)

Do you mean ICE as in inter-city express, i.e. only between the big cities, or the german ICE? I agree with the first, it'd be plain stupid to try and extend this as a part of a plan to keep the countryside alive.

But I really hope this becomes reality. Please, please, please don't screw this one up, my beloved motherland.

Do you mean ICE as in inter-city express, i.e. only between the big cities, or the german ICE?
Doesn't the German ICE stand for Inter-City Express? :)

Doesn't the German ICE stand for Inter-City Express? :)

Well, yes, but it could be that he meant we should use ICE technology instead of TGV, Shinkansen, etc.. But on second thought, it was pretty obvious hea meant ICE as in inter-city express :)

23.11.2006
VR and Russian railways have set up a rolling stock company for passenger services and a sales company for freight services

VR Ltd and Russian railway company OAO RZD have set up a joint rolling stock company for high speed services between Helsinki and St. Petersburg.

VR Ltd and OAO Transcontainer, subsidiary of RZD, have established a sales company to market container transport services.


Oy Karelian Trains Ltd

Oy Karelian Trains Ltd is a company which will acquire high speed trains and maintenance services for services between Helsinki and St. Petersburg. VR and RZD each own 50% of the company.

M. P. Akulov, Vice President, OAO RZD was chosen as chairman of the board. The presi-dent of the company is VR Passenger Services project manager, M.Sc. (Eng.) Ilkka Keränen. The registered office of the company is in Helsinki.

An international bidding competition will be organised for the acquisition of rolling stock.

In addition to new rolling stock, achieving faster travel times requires track investments in both countries and conducting all border formalities on the moving train. The aim is to redu-ce the travel time between Helsinki and St. Petersburg from the current five and a half hours to three hours.

A total of 267 000 journeys were made between Finland and Russia in 2005. The figure indi-cates a growth of 6% when compared with the previous year. Growth for 2006 is expected to be at least 15%.


Oy TransContainer Scandinavia Ltd

Oy TransContainer Scandinavia Ltd, jointly owned by VR and Transcontainer (50/50), will market container transport services to Russia, other CIS countries and also to e.g. China and Korea.
Furthermore, the company will intensify marketing for the Helsinki–Moscow container train.

The registered office of the company is in Helsinki. Personnel have not yet been chosen.

In 2005 container transport by rail between Finland and Russia amounted to 125 000 TEU. A total of 80% of the containers was transported between Finland and the Far East.

TEU is a unit of measurement equivalent to one 20-foot container.
Source (http://www.vrgroup.fi/vakiolinkit/VRinforms/news_99.html)

Now all that's missing is a tunnel to Tallinn and Helsinki's future is set. :)
As a Porvooian I'd love to have a railway built along the coast from Helsinki to the border as well, that would probably reduce the traveltime to St. Petersburg even further (and enable me to travel to Helsinki by train ;) )

Yeah, too bad we don't have showy politicians here. Then they'd be screaming for 350 km/h :)

Do you mean ICE as in inter-city express, i.e. only between the big cities, or the german ICE? I agree with the first, it'd be plain stupid to try and extend this as a part of a plan to keep the countryside alive.

But I really hope this becomes reality. Please, please, please don't screw this one up, my beloved motherland.
I ment inter-city express. And your beloved motherland can't even cough up 5 billion for a thorium power plant, so where will they get 150 billion for this from? That's so much money even I'm not entirely sure I'm for it...

A real LRT system to Malmö, finally?

Spårvägsutredning tillsätts i Malmö



En spårvägsutredning ska tillsättas i Malmö för att bland annat se till att spårreservat säkerställs inför en möjlig spårvägssatsning i framtiden.
Det berättade kommunalrådet Anders Rubin (s) vid en presskonferens på onsdagen.
Utredningens uppdrag blir, förutom att se till att spårreservaten säkerställs, också att klargöra turodningen i en framtida spårvägssatsning, skapa ett bredare kunskapsunderlag och öka medvetenheten kring behovet av insatser i trafiksystemet.

- Vi kan nu klart överblicka vilka effekter vi kommer att få av den helt nödvändiga satsningen på Citytunneln när det gäller den spårbundna kollektivtrafiken i Malmö, säger Anders Rubin. Och när vi lyfter blicken från det fokus som vi hittills haft på Citytunneln så kan vi också se att vi med stor säkerhet kommer att behöva utveckla spårbunden trafik även på annat sätt i Malmö efter det att Citytunneln har tagits i bruk, säger han.
- Därför behöver vi en utredning som går igenom hela problematiken och där en av de viktigaste uppgifterna blir att säkra utrymme för ett framtida spårvägsnät.
- Vi vill gärna också undersöka hur andra städer har hanterat frågan om spårbunden kollektivtrafik och se hur mycket vi kan lära oss av deras lösningar, säger Anders Rubin.
2006-09-13 15:47

I hope they'll look at Porto and other cities with great metro-tram solutions!


And as a bonus, here's some pics of Malmö's current old school tourist trams. :)

Malmö's current tourist tram network, with planned extensions (NOTE: this has nothing to do with the LRT network that Socialdemokraterna wants to build):
http://www.mss.se/WEB-bilder/MSS-hemsida/Vision2007.JPG

http://www.mss.se/WEB-bilder/BAK_3018_vatten.jpg

http://www.mss.se/WEB-bilder/TEM_3018_100.jpg

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m114/JanneP_2006/Bilder/ML74Smll.jpg

http://www.mss.se/WEB-bilder/74_BAT.jpg

http://www.mss.se/WEB-bilder/74_STB.jpg

http://www.mss.se/WEB-bilder/74_TUB.jpg

http://www.disparat.com/magnus/malmo/images/IMG_0059.JPG

Interesting article about the problems and solutions on the Öresund train traffic.
Only in Swedish, but it's basically about the huge increase in travellers and commuters on the Öresund trains between Malmö and Copenhagen.
As a former commuter between the two cities, I can only agree. You never get a seat on these trains, and it's almost claustrophobically crowded. The fact that the commuters have to share the room with air travellers from Copenhagen Airport is very bad too.
I have many times even had to wait for the next train because the current one was completely full.

"Resandet har ökat i en takt vi inte kunde förutse"
Av Kinga Sandén
Senast uppdaterad 29 november 2006 07:57

Skånetrafiken får drygt två miljarder för att köpa in 40 nya pågatåg, som i sin tur ska avlasta Öresundstågen. Det bestämde regionfullmäktige i går. Effekterna märks tidigast om två år.


I dag behöver man knappast lägga örat mot rälsen för att höra mullret från Öresundspendlarna. Efter gårdagens artikel om överfulla Öresundståg har många skrivit till Sydsvenskan. Ett urval inlägg pub?*liceras nedan.
Skånetrafikens vd Gösta Ahlberg lovar att de ska märka en förändring vid årsskiftet.



Hur skulle du beskriva läget på Öresundstågen?
– Det är trångt. Det är givetvis en svår situation för många av våra trafikanter, säger Gösta Ahlberg.

Vad är problemet?
– Det går för få tåg.

Varför?
– Resandet har ökat i en takt vi inte kunde förutse. Det har gjorts en mängd prognoser, men ingen kom i närheten av det vi har uppnått nu.

Är det okej att personer med periodkort inte får plats på vissa tåg?
– Nej. Alla våra kunder ska få plats.

Det får de inte.
– Till att börja med behöver vi de elva tåg som är beställda och ska levereras. Det första skulle redan ha kommit, men det är försenat i tillverkningen. Vi har blivit lovade att det ska komma i december. Alla tågen ska ha kommit i mars-april.

Vad har ni lärt er av detta?
– Att vi måste få fram resurser för att skaffa de bussar och tåg som behövs. Nu får vi 2,2 miljarder att köpa nya pågatåg för. De ska kunna frigöra en del Öresundståg som åker inne i Skåne. Vi får tågen inom två år.

Hur ska ni undvika att det blir så här igen?
– De prognoser vi har visar att med de åtgärder vi gör nu klarar vi den ökade efterfrågan fram till 2011.

Varför skulle de prognoserna stämma när de inte gjort det tidigare?
– Vi försöker få bättre prognoser från olika håll, men jag kan inte lova att de verkligen blir bättre.

Vad vill du säga till de pendlare som får stå varje dag?
– Det är inte den servicen vi vill tillhandahålla. Det är vår uppgift att undanröja det här.

Hur då?
– De tåg som kommer sätter vi in. Jag beklagar och hoppas att de håller ut.

Hur länge ska de hålla ut?
– Vid årsskiftet ska de märka förbättringar.

Är rimligt att de som alltid står betalar samma pris för sina kort?
– Ja. Vi bedömer att vi inte kan hantera ett system med sittplatskort så att det blir rättvist.

Pendlare kan få lämna sin sittplats vid Kastrup, när personer med platsbiljetter stiger på. Är det här ett bra system?
– Det blir en konflikt mellan långväga resande och pendelsystemet. Jag kan inte säga idag hur vi ska lösa det.
Ska det fortsätta såhär?
– Annars skapar vi ett annat problem: att de som har sittplats inte får sitta.

Varför ska pendlarna betala 1 660 kronor per månad för att komma i andra hand?
– Priset är rabatterat. De med kontantbiljett betalar mer per resa.

Så rabatten motiverar att de får stå?
– Nej det högre priset motiverar att man har rätt till sittplats.

Det är ju samma sak.
– Nej det är det inte.

Utan?
– Man kan köpa sittplats, och då gäller den.

Ni höjer priset på periodkorten efter nyår och har höjt flera gånger. Är det rimligt, med tanke på hur trafiken fungerar?
– Så dåligt är det inte generellt. Det finns problem på vissa ställen och tider. I stort sett är det ett utmärkt system.

Flera personer som skrivit till Sydsvenskan har slutat sina jobb i Danmark därför att de inte orkar med stressen kring pendlingen. Vad vill du säga till dem?
– Att en av de största utmaningarna i Skåne är att skapa resurser till kollektivtrafiken så att alla som vill kan pendla.

Är det vad du har att säga till dem?
– Om det enbart beror på pendlingen är det naturligtvis beklagligt.

Hur påverkar trängseln säkerheten?
– Enligt de myndigheter som har i uppgift att kontrollera det här är det inte ett säkerhetsproblem. Men det är ingen önskvärd situation att man kan få en känsla av otrygghet i ett fullpackat tåg.

Är det bara en känsla, när tågvärdarna inte ens kan ta sig fram?
– Om det var ett säkerhetsproblem skulle tågen inte få köra, det är den logiska slutsatsen.

I ment inter-city express. And your beloved motherland can't even cough up 5 billion for a thorium power plant, so where will they get 150 billion for this from? That's so much money even I'm not entirely sure I'm for it...

Yes, it's a stupidly large amount, but I hope we'll manage both HSR and a thorium plant :) The point is, they have to "sell" these projects to the public.. It's all about the PR.. Damn democracy, we need someone who can Get Things Done.

On the one hand it's great that people are using the trains, but it just seems like it's getting ridiculous. Which brings me to my big question: how many more trains is there room for? The bridge is only two tracks after all - and the fact that Sthlm still only has two thru-tracks is what's limiting the number of commuter and regional trains during rush-hour. hmmm... time to start looking at bi-level trains for Öresundstågen? :D

LRT for Malmö sounds like a perfect match. If Norrköping and Götet can get it to work well, then Malmö shouldn't be a problem at all. :)

Swede,
Agreed. Malmö has flat and wide streets as well which should lower the costs when putting tracks there. Plus there is also existing tracks in parts of the city that wasn't removed when they scrapped the old tram system in the 70s (?) - a good example of this is "Sillabanan" along the coast from Centralen/Västra Hamnen all the way down to Limhamn (and actually Bunkeflo and Klagshamn as well). Since the old industrial areas by the waterfront in Limhamn will be demolished and replaced with 3500-sometihng apartments, it is even more obvious.

The Citytunnel will make it possible to run many more trains through Malmö and over the bridge - I think we'll see frequencies at 10 minutes (compared to today's 20 minutes) and even higher frequency during rush hour.
The next step is to use double decker trains like on some commuter lines in Copenhagen, but that lies further away in time since the present train sets still are quite new and modern.

Similar article as the one above, about problems with too crowded trains between Lillestrøm and Oslo S. Some trains are so crowded that people faint.


Frustrerte togpassasjerer:
Svimer av med NSB

Sinte togpassasjerer raser over trange tog og mener NSB slett ikke er verdt prisen.

Trengselen på strekningen mellom Lillestrøm og Oslo S er verre enn noensinne. - Vi får ikke det vi betaler for, mener togkundene. Togene mellom Oslo S og Lillestrøm er stappfulle. Passasjerene mener at det begynner å bli uforsvarlig når folk svimer av i trengselen, skriver Romerikes Blad

http://e24.no/multimedia/archive/00486/_trengsel__nsb_jpg_486262d.jpg

- Fryktelig dyrt
Pendlerne avisen har snakket med er også alle enige om en ting: De får på ingen måte det tilbudet de betaler for.

– Det er fryktelig dyrt å ta offentlig kommunikasjon. Tilbudet NSB serverer oss, er på ingen måte verdt den prisen, sier passasjerene, som mener at trengselen har tiltatt den siste tiden.

Handlingslammet
At pendlerne ikke synes prisen står i forhold til det tilbudet de får, er vanskelig å gjøre noe med, mener informasjonssjef Preben Colstrup.

– Jeg kan godt forstå at våre reisende mener at prisen er for høy, men jeg skjønner ikke hvordan vi kan gjøre noe med prisen på tog som er så fulle at det er ubehagelig å reise, sier han til avisen.

Et månedskort fra Jessheim til Oslo, koster 1.480 kroner. Til Kløfta 1.365 kroner.

- Trafikken er enorm i alle store byer. Det er fulle tog og trengsel. Vi er glade for at flere reiser med tog. Vi får mer moderne tog og mer presise tog. Men vi har ennå ikke god nok kapasitet, sier Colstrup til Romerrikes Blad.


http://e24.no/naeringsliv/article1556013.ece#AF

Ahh, I totally recognize that scenario. :(

How far is it between Lilleström and Oslo, and how long does the route take by train?

^^ Longer trains, perhaps :dunno: But I think this is mostly a problem on trains when the one before was so delayed this one got there before it. It might not be as bad as it used to be, but I sometimes wonder why they can't get their act together. Just look at t-banen. Why is it they'll rarely have a five min delay, while NSB has delays of more than ten minutes quite often? If you're a regular with a commuter train, you're bound to know this one: "Vi har for tiden store forsinkelser i togtrafikken grunnet tekniske problemer med signalanlegget ved (..)stasjon."

If you're a regular with a commuter train, you're bound to know this one: "Vi har for tiden store forsinkelser i togtrafikken grunnet tekniske problemer med signalanlegget ved (..)stasjon."

The clue is to take a train before the big delays starts kicking in during rush hour. I usually take the train from Nationaltheateret around 7am, and rarely experience any delays, while a colleague of mine comes swearing into the office almost every day 1 1/2 hours later, complaining about trains beeing delayed half an hour or so.

How far is it between Lilleström and Oslo, and how long does the route take by train?

It's about 17 km. It used to take almost 30 minutes by train, but after the airport-express was built, it is just one long traintunnel away, and it takes 10 minutes. That is why this route has become very popular lately, and it might even partly explain the big population increase on that side of town the last 5 years.

Skånetrafiken as new Pågatågs (commuter trains) on order from French manufacturer Alstom - 49 of them to be exact. They will be delivered in the beginning of 2009.

http://sydsvenskan.se/skane/article201038.ece

http://sydsvenskan.se/multimedia/archive/00056/tagpuff_400_56568a.jpg

http://sydsvenskan.se/multimedia/archive/00056/pagatag400_56557a.jpg

They've managed to keep the purple colour in a good way in my opinion.

Not the most exciting design I've seen, but definately a big improvement from the old ugly trains.

Very bad news for Malmö:
http://sydsvenskan.se/malmo/article202669.ece

Citytunneln löser inte Malmös tågkaos
Av Erik Magnusson
Senast uppdaterad 11 december 2006 13:40

Det kaos som idag präglar tågpendlingen mellan Malmö och Köpenhamn förvärras under nästa år. Och när Citytunneln öppnar år 2011 riskerar 700 pendlare att bli kvarlämnade på perrongen. Det visar en ny prognos från Öresundsinstitutet.

Enligt Öresundsinstitutet kommer Citytunneln inte att kunna lösa den växande trafikproblemen i Malmö och Öresundsregionen.

Det beror på att Citytunneln inte kommer att kunna svälja de stora trafikökningar som är att vänta i Malmö.

Redan 2008 kommer det att fattas platser på Öresundstågen under rusningstrafik. Och platsbristen kommer år för år att bli allt mer besvärande.

När Citytunneln öppnas år 2011 måste den sundspendlare som vill få plats på tåget över Öresund hoppa på tåget på Malmö central. Om man väntar på Köpenhamnståget på Station Triangeln riskerar man att bli kvarlämnad på perrongen. Och om man tar tåget till Danmark i rusningstrafik från den nya Station Hyllie lär det inte finnas någon plats kvar.

Enligt Öresundsinstitutets analys finns det en rad lösningar som kan lösa kapacitetsproblemen i Citytunneln och på Öresundstågen.

Det kan exempelvis bli nödvändigt att behålla Svågertorp som en reservstation för ett stort antal tågavgångar.

Men det troligaste är att ett stort antal sundspendlare blir tvingade att resa mellan Malmö och Köpenhamn med bil eller buss i stället för tåg.

---------------

Bolded text translations:

Det kaos som idag präglar tågpendlingen mellan Malmö och Köpenhamn förvärras under nästa år. Och när Citytunneln öppnar år 2011 riskerar 700 pendlare att bli kvarlämnade på perrongen.
The commuting chaos between Malmö and Copenhagen will get even worse next year. And when the City Tunnel opens in 2011, there's a risk of 700 commuters being left behind on the platforms in Malmö every day.

Men det troligaste är att ett stort antal sundspendlare blir tvingade att resa mellan Malmö och Köpenhamn med bil eller buss i stället för tåg.
The most likely scenario, even when the City Tunnel is in operation, is that many commuters will be forced to take the bus or drive a car over the bridge.


10 billion SEK and it won't even be able to do the job it's supposed to do? It's so pathetic it's not even funny! :ohno:

sucks, but isn't it a bit too early to tell?

Well, I guess it's not that difficult to make passenger "forecasts" 5-6 years into the future, and they obviously know the capacity for Citytunneln - but yeah, we have to wait and see. Not much can be done about it anyway.

^^

Det é beklagligt. :ohno:

I'm so sorry to read about this. :(

Isn't there still any chance to remodify the plan and add more tracks into the project? :(

http://www.gp.se/gp/jsp/Crosslink.jsp?d=119&a=315272
20 till sjukhus när E6 rasade vid Småröd

MUNKEDAL: Cirka 20 personer har förts till sjukhus sedan cirka 300 meter av E 6 på onsdagskvällen rasade ned i Taske å intill vägen. Ingen är enligt uppgift livshotande skadad men E 6 mellan Torp och Saltkällan är helt avstängd.

Raset inträffade strax efter kl 19 och tiotalet bilar körde ned i rasmassorna och följde med ned i den 2-3 meter djupa gropen som är minst 200 meter bred sannolikt ännu bredare Vägbanorna på E 6 är helt borta. Raset inträffade där motorvägen övergår till den del av E 6 som ännu inte är utbyggd till motorväg och allt talar för att det myckna regnandet den senaste tiden har orsakar skredet.Vid 21-tiden på onsdagskvällen hade hittills 20 personer förts till sjukhus, de flesta med lättare skador. Vid 22-tiden på kvällen fortsatte det med mindre ras på den södra sidan.På kvällen rekvirerade polisen hundförare för att försäkra sig om ett ingen fanns kvar i rasområdet.
- 13 har förts till Munkedals vårdcentral. Sju har förts till Uddevalla lasarett, uppgav Leif Larsson, räddningschef i Uddevalla, till TT. Räddningsledaren Ulf Gustafsson uppgav senare på kvällen att alla hade tagits om hand. De flesta hade förts till vårdcentralen i Munkedal

Personal finns på plats från räddningstjänsterna i Orust, Munkedal och Uddevalla. Man har också ambulanser stationerade på båda sidor om det rasade vägavsnittet. En av de som suttit fast i sin bil är en lastbilschaufför som följde med det i rasmassorna med sin tankbil. Det var ännu på kvällen oklart vad som fanns i bilens tankar.

Det är E6 utanför järnvägsmuseet i Småröd söder om Munkedal som rasat och försvunnit.Enligt uppgifter har raset inträffat intill museiområdet. En fastighet har fått utrymmas liksom det husvagns- och barackläger där många vägarbetare som jobbar med E 6-motorvägen bor.
- Den första ambulansen på plats kunde inte ta sig ned till bilarna på grund av rasrisken, berättar en larmoperatör på kvällen.

Ambulanshelikopter och nio ambulanser samt räddningstjänst från Uddevalla, Munkedal och Orust ryckte ut till olycksplatsen. och enligt räddningsledaren Ulf Gustavsson på plats hade man inte fått ut alla vid tiotiden utan det fanns fortfarande personer kvar i ett par bilar. Inga dödsoffer har enligt räddningsledningen vid 22-tiden dock krävts.

Kvinna ringde från bil som rasat
Tidiga uppgifter från polisen gjorde gällande att det bara skulle vara två bilar som rasat. Enligt Thomas Fuxborg polisens presstalesman var det en kvinna som ringt in från den ena bilen.
- Hon sade sig vara oskadd men var chockad, berättar Thomas Fuxborg.

GP talade en timma efter olyckan med Siv Hansson som bor alldeles i närheten av av olycksplatsen. Hennes man Hans har gått ut med en ficklampa för att försöka bilda sig en uppfattning av raset.
- Jag kan bara se att det är en massa ljus från utryckningsfordon och att vägen är helt avstängd i bägge riktningarna. Det har bildats långa köer kan jag se från mitt fönster, berättar Siv Hansson.
Hon beskriver rasplatsen som några hundra meter norrut från järnvägsmuseet vid E6:an.

Räddningstjänstens personal som var på plats hade också ett mycket farligt räddningsjobb eftersom de fick arbeta ut an att veta om det fanns ytterligare rasrisker.

Vägen går parallellt med Taske å på dess väg ut i Saltkällefjorden och är tvåfilig. Vägen är helt försvunnen vid rasområdet och polisen har stängt av vägen från Saltkällan i norr till Torp, strax norr om Uddevalla, i söder.

Järnvägen drabbades också enligt de första uppgifterna med en avklippt kontaktledning som gjorde Bohusbanan strömlös. Ett persontåg som var på väg från Munkedal stoppades bara 600-700 meter från olycksplatsen..

Vid 20.30-tiden hade redan långa köer redan bildats på E6, både norr och söderut. Vägverket har beslutat att leda om södergående trafik via Finnsbo-färjan och Lysekil och norrgående trafik leds om via Torp, Rotviksbro och Skredsvik. Tung trafik har hänvisats via Länsväg 172 via Dalsland till Norge.
Det kommer att ta lång tid att få vägen reparerad och Vägverket spår att det kommer att bli svåra trafikproblem en tid framöver.

^^
Tragic.

At first I thought it was the standard swedish newspaper word "rasade" in the headline.. ;)

Heh, the interstate got angry... ;)

I'm just amazed no-one died. It ahppened hours after sunset and ten or so cars went over the edge...
http://img.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/0612/21/ras.jpg

the southern part of the new E4 opened today, a whole year early! :cheers:


http://img.unt.se/bildupp/common/2006_12_21_122442e4open/big/20061221_122756e4start1.jpg
sadly it's just frost.... :(

WHERE?

WHERE?
outside Uppsala of course ;) Björklinge-Danmark :)

/\ Oh yeah. :)
I'm gonna testdrive it next summer.

/\ Oh yeah. :)
I'm gonna testdrive it next summer.

and don't forget to stop by :cheers:

http://www.troleibusai.lt/img/mainfoto.jpg
http://www.vap.lt/photogallery/volvo/sudvejinti2.jpg
Vilnius currently has 45 new Solaris trolleybuses, 24 Mercedes Benz and 90 Volvo busses. This modernized fleet represents about 1/3 of the total fleet. Vilnius has been lagging somewhat behind Riga in terms of bringing it's public transport fleet up to western standards, although it's catching up as of late.

http://transport.asi.pwr.wroc.pl/images/photos/big/3/117912.jpg
Kaunas, Lithuania is getting 40 new Solaris trollyebusses over the next few years. First ones have started appearing on the streets recently. Not crazy about the color choice for the Kaunas trolleybuses...

http://img54.exs.cx/img54/2504/imgp17204mb.jpg
Kaunas also has also acquired 55 new Solaris busses last year such as the one pictured above.

The 17th station of Helsinki Metro, Kalasatama - Fiskhamnen, opened today. It'll become very important station in the future, when the new residential area of Sörnäistenranta is completed (somewhere around 2022, if we're lucky I think).

A picture of the new station can be found here: http://trumanb.net/images/muutoksia_070113.JPG

^^
At least they're thinking ahead. :cool:

Did any danes watch TV2 news tonight? - A friend told me that there where something about a new Great Belt brigde - kalundborg-samsø-århus?!?!?! anybody know what that is all about - it isn't the 1. april is it?

Did any danes watch TV2 news tonight? - A friend told me that there where something about a new Great Belt brigde - kalundborg-samsø-århus?!?!?! anybody know what that is all about - it isn't the 1. april is it?

No apparently it is a real suggestion from a bunch of engeneeres who say the country will be in great danger id the storebæltsbro is out for a longer periode at a time...Which is true, but perhaps not a reason to buiild one more.

It comes after yesterdays sugestion that we build a new oresunds bridge, because it is now finaly started to get a bit bussy...
:ohno:

http://www.berlingske.dk/indland/artikel:aid=845112/

It comes after yesterdays sugestion that we build a new oresunds bridge, because it is now finaly started to get a bit bussy...
:ohno:

http://www.berlingske.dk/indland/artikel:aid=845112/This is just stupid. Only 15.800 vehicles passed the Øresund Bridge on an average day in 2006. Compare that to the ~60.000 that crosses the Vejle Fjord Bro each day, and it also only has two lanes in each direction.

This is just stupid. Only 15.800 vehicles passed the Øresund Bridge on an average day in 2006. Compare that to the ~60.000 that crosses the Vejle Fjord Bro each day, and it also only has two lanes in each direction.

I know- And today they reported that the bridge will have another year in the red, and it will take even longer to pay of the debt...

The idea was also pretty much dismissed by several Danish experts...There ia hardly even a hint of a trafic jam...Which several comuters confermed when they asked them...Hence my :ohno:

Connecting Helsingör and Helsingborg isn't a bad idea. But doing it with a road-brisge is. A rail-tunnel would take alot of load from the rails on the Link, and seeing as how those are expected to be at capacity in the foreseeable future...

^^
Agreed. Actually it should have been done a long time ago. There have been plans on the Öresund Bridge (the "first one") for more than 100 years, if the present bridge would have been realized 50-60 years ago, I think a HH-connection would be a reality today already.

I don't really get why people are bringing up road/car traffic since the present bridge isn't congested at all in that matter. It's the rail traffic that's already way over capacity, thus one more rail connection (tunnel, preferable) is essential to re-route the passengers coming from the north of Scania and Sweden, over Helsingborg-Helsingör.

I seem to recall thart just such a tunnel is already in the long-term planning of Helsingborg City, iirc a three track tunnel - 2 for passenger traffic and 1 for freight. This would make it possible for alot of the long distance trains to go that way instead of via Malmö. Sure, fewer trains to the north from Malmö, but more room for commutertrains (that are already full during rushhour).

^^
In deed.

^^
In deed.

Indeed...:)

You're complaining about my spelling? :eek: :)

The thing about a new Øresund-link have never been proposed because of the car-traffic. Even though it have grown rapidly, there is still A LOT og capacity left - and everyone agree that congestion will not be a problem for many years, and if it get a problem, there will be many motorways around Copenhagen and other places in Denmark with much worse congestion problems.
The idea about a second Øresund-link is becuase of the rail traffic which have soon reached it max capacity (as it have been discussed earlier in the thread). A link between Helsingør and Helsingborg could relieve Øresundbron for a lot of the long distance traffic and the freight traffic, and give more room for the commuting rail traffic between Malmø and Copenhagen. In that perspective it makes good sence to me!

A second tunnel would do good, especially for traffic heading for northern Scandinavia. The motorway on the Danish side that currently stops outside Elsinore is prepared for an extension and a tunnel north of the H-Hcities btw.

Found this picture on wikipedia, and I must say if I was a kid again I´d love to live in that yellow house in the middle, with all rail traffic outside the bed room :)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Lundabilder31mars_vkbkobjer.jpg/800px-Lundabilder31mars_vkbkobjer.jpg

Meh... I say cut off the rest f Scandinavia and reimpose the good old Øresunds tax :D






j/k a new HH tunnel or bridge for that matter would be great.....


But a Århus-Kalundborg bridge is completely nuts....if anyting build a really highspeed freeway paralel to the exiscting one over Funen, just with tunnels instead of bridges - going underground with also make it posible to cut a few corners and make the CPH-Århus drive shorter and faster... ( I absolutely hate driving across damn Funen - slow twisting highway with speed traps everywhere :( )

You're complaining about my spelling? :eek: :)

Ha ha...yeah, I know...Odd isnt it...Sorry, but I couldn't help it this time. I just thought it was a bit funny. I know my spelling sucks too, thogh mostly it is not because I dont know how to, its simply that I am in too much of a hurry, or that I am too lazy to check for errors after I am done with my rambeling...Also, my keyboard is screwed up, so sometimes eventhough i press a button, nothing happens...

Defence speach over....

It happens...And it used to be a lot worse....

I feel depressed when I look at those phtos of railway and highway systems in Scandinavia. Estonia is like 20 years behind when you look at the infrastructure and it's quite sad. We have some really old trains that can't do more than 120km/h :ohno: and because the tracks are bad, trains usually ride even slower than that. And the trains shake a lot so the ride is quite uncomfortable. So 1 picture of then trains:
http://www.spz.logout.cz/foto2005/dr1b_3716rakvere_ps.jpg
And the electric trains, which run only near Tallinn:
http://www.spz.logout.cz/foto2005/2206tallinn_hp.jpg
Inside Tallinn, the situation is not better. Public trasport in Tallinn is aged, slow and uncomfortable. Well, yes there are some new buses like this:

But the average age of buses is still more than 10 years.
Trams are even worse and many of the trams used now, where used in Germany in the 80s :lol: so it's like a history museumhttp://tallinn.mashke.org/kt4/062/6216.jpg And the trams are slow...Some projects about fast-tram lines to to Lasnamäe and Mustamäe are made but these lines are very unlikely to be built before 2013 or smth.
There are trolleybuses in Tallinn too. Most of the trolleybuses are old Škodas:[url]http://tallinn.mashke.org/14tr/2629.jpg (]http://tallinn.mashke.org/bussid/1001/3511.jpg[/URL),
but here are some new Solarises: http://tallinn.mashke.org/Sola-T18/4352.jpg
Oh...now some things about roads. Many of Tallinn's streets are very bumpy. The main roads between bigger cities are in normal shape but they are narrow and curvy and because there are a lot of crazy drivers in estonia, lots of people die on the roads, while trying to overtake. We actually don't have even 1km of highway in Estonia. There are some 4-line(about 100km in total) roads but these aren't highways. It's really difficult to do something about the current situation because Estonia's state budget is small - only about 4,8 billion Euros.

nice and pessimistic there there rebasepoiss, in reality, ofcourse our systems are aged and ugly compared to most of Northern Europe, but the situation is just now beginning to rapidly change, both Elektriraudtee and Edelearaudtee want to purchase new sets. And the current trains we have... running at 120km/h are actually okay.

about Tallinn and its public transport.
Dude seriously, our busses are damn good compared to say the busses in Vilnius and Riga, ofcourse they are also starting to improve these now but we started years ago. And didnt we just order 60 brand new busses for 2007?

The trams ofcourse, are the... "uglyspot" in Tallinn, they look pretty bad, but take a look at the trams with the low section, they are pretty nice already. And heck, check out the frequency of the tramsystem - a tram approx every 30seconds!
And Trolleys are getting far better year by year, we just bought 28 from Solaris!
and lets do a little comparison of EMU's
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ee/electric/ER2-ER12/ER2T-2208-2207_Klooga-Rand_15-1-_02_04_EST.jpg
this doesnt actually look that bad, now does it!

Vilnius started to buy new buses in 2003. Now there are more than 100 new buses (mainly Volvo and some Mercedes). There are also 45 new trolleys (Solaris) which are longer than usual with max capacity of 150. Older buses are also being changed to newly bought used buses (don't know how many). Situation with public transport in Vilnius is bad, because in comparison to other cities here quite many prefer private cars instead of public transport and as a result we have quite big traffic jams for a city of ~560 000. Maybe situation will get better in the future when (if) we will get a tram.
Currently there are many new roads, viaducts U/C in Vilnius and also first in our region automated traffic control system is being realised too. Maybe the situation will be better after these projects will be realised. Though I'm not so sure because the number of cars is only increasing.
As for general situation in whole Lithuania, it seems that we are doing better than our neighbours but this is also because we are quite decentralised in comparison to our neighbours.

Maybe situation will get better in the future when (if) we will get a tram.

That "if" has no more than 10% to get true ;)

As for general situation in whole Lithuania, it seems that we are doing better than our neighbours but this is also because we are quite decentralised in comparison to our neighbours.

:lol: i hate such comparisons :D I hope you have enough arguments to defend your opinion ;)

:lol: i hate such comparisons :D I hope you have enough arguments to defend your opinion ;)
Only those who know nothing about Baltic states could say something like this. Do you really live in Kaunas? :) Because if you do, you should know the situation yourslef.

Because if you do, you should know the situation yourslef.

You mean, situation that in Lithuania transport and infrastucture position is better than in other S&B countrys? :) I know that Lithuanian roads are better than Polish ones. What else can you tell me? Let's say that i don't know these things, so please introduce me with the information you know :)

I haven't said that you are wrong, but i have said that you might get to defend your opinion, so be ready for that, that's all ;) Don't need to be mad (if you are like that) ;)

^^ In my post I did not mention S&B countries, by our neighbours I meant Latvia and Estonia. If you don't know the situation in Baltic states and you live there then shame on you. ;) You should travel and/or learn more. :)

Well, I'm pretty stupid at this subject too so you could enlighten me and show some information and facts about the infrastructure in Baltic states...Because I don't know how the situation is in Latvia and Lietuva. I have been in both of these countries but I haven't had an opportunity to use any kind of public transport in Latvia or Lietuva.

While you started to buy new busses in 2003, Tallinn sent its final Ikarus away that year. We buy tens and tens of new busses each year and were replacing the busses we bought back in the 90s.
As for trolleys there are atm 32 new trolleys, and in 2006 they signed a deal with solaris for 28 new trolleys which will be delivered in 4 years. Now, keep in mind, that Tallinn has 9 trolley lines.

About busses, atm the median age of 347 busses is 12 years. Now, this (well last) year we signed a deal for 40 New busses delivered by the summer of 2007, plus another 25 in 2008.

Also in 2006, city authorities struck a deal with Swedish Thoreb AB to install information system, GPS devices and notification systems to all the older busses, trams and trolleys of the transport fleet, as all the new now ordered busses will automatically have them. The next step now, is to install notification boards in all the bus, tram and trolley stops which show live (and accurate since its GPS) data about bus arrival and etc.
Now these systems are basically what you have on Metro trains. NExt stop, zone information (because some busses travel outside of Tallinn city limits), ticket information etc. Also these systems will notify passengers of expected delays, traffic jams, accidents, it will show the route etc, its audiovisual with LCD screens ;)

And ofcourse, we have trams....:) Which Vilnius lacks ;)

Oh and did i mention our ticket system, its mostly electronic :)

oH WELL, /\ i was babbling about city transport.
As for OVERALL situation, its debatable. I think that at the moment, lithuania does have an advantage.

And ofcourse, we have trams....:) Which Vilnius lacks ;)

Not for long :lol: By the way, you look sexy, ch1le :lol: Non of these facts (?) was mentioned for a fight :cheers1:

/\ Fights are good :D! Gimme mooore figures! :D
I look sexy? Hell, not on the pics that have ever been posted in this forum! :D

What Tallinn needs is more public transport lanes to make public transport faster. For example: I live in Viimsi, 10 km from the center of Tallinn but I have to go to school to downtown every morning. During rushhour, this could take as long as 45 minutes, which is too much. An additional lane for public transport at Pirita tee would shorten this time by 15-20 minutes.Viimsi's population is growing every year and the problem is becoming bigger. And this was only one example. At the moment people prefer a private car to public transport because moving with a car is faster and more comfortable. This causes quite large traffic jams, considering Tallinn's population, which is only about 400 000.

/\yes they are implementing Public transport ONLY lanes there, but i doubt the drivers will follow them.
And for your information, Tallinn's population is around 600 000, if we include the metro area.

^^
Metropolitan Tallin has 600.000? That's smaller than I thought!

07-01-04 KL. 13:11

Vill ha ny förbindelse över Öresund

Öresundsinstitutet vill gärna ha en ny fast förbindelse över Öresund - förslaget är en bro eller tunnel mellan Helsingborg och Helsingör.


Under fjolåret växte trafiken på Öresundsbron med 16 procent och är nu uppe i 15 800 fordon per dag - plus tågtrafiken. Den rena pendlingen ökade med 43 procent jämfört med 2005. Det bidrar till att Öresundsinstitutet spår en fortsatt mycket kraftig ökning av trafiken mellan Sverige och Danmark. 2017 kan ytterligare 23 000 danskar ha flyttat till Skåne och 30 000 svenskar kan ha börjat jobba i Storköpenhamn, enligt Öresundsinstitutets analys.

2011 kommer förmodligen tågtrafiken att öka till sex tåg i timmen mot dagens tre. Redan nu har det satts in extra vagnar i rusningstid. Det minskar utrymmet för att transportera gods på järnvägen. Därför föreslås att en fast förbindelse byggs också mellan Helsingör och Helsingborg - alternativt att Öresundsbron breddas (:nuts: !?!?!?!?!?!?!? :nuts:).

Öresundsinstitutets chef Anders Olshov säger att han anser att det bör tillsättas en utredning som undersöker möjligheterna att förstärka infrastrukturen i regionen.

Analytikern Niels Paarup-Petersen: "Det är en fråga om man vill nöja sig med samarbete eller om man vill ha integration. Det sistnämnda skulle göra regionen mycket starkare. Och det skulle vara till fördel för hela Danmark, inte bara för Köpenhamn. Resten av landet är beroende av huvudstadens styrka och den växer med en ökande sammansmältning." När det gäller infrastrukturen tillägger Paarup-Petersen: "Öresundsbron kan bli alltför trafikerad. Det är en självklar möjlighet att man gör det lättare att komma över via Helsingborg-Helsingör och man ska från början tänka in gods- och passagerartåg i lösningen."

På Kvällspostens ledarsida kommenteras diskussionen om en fast förbindelse mellan Helsingborg och Helsingör. Peter J. Olsson, politisk redaktör skriver: "Det finns motsatta uppfattningar om behovet bland danska fackdebattörer. Men när Berlingske Tidende lät sina läsare komma fram var åsikterna betydligt mer positiva: Det behövs en förbindelse till och det vanligaste förslaget var en kombinerad tåg och vägtunnel vid Öresunds norra ände - mellan Helsingborg och Helsingör. Det skulle inte bara vara en utökning av kapaciteten, utan också en lösning som tätare knyter hela Själland till hela Skåne och vägarna norrut mot Stockholm och Göteborg. Så menade Berlingskes läsare i alla fall."

Olsson fortsätter: "Tunnellösningen förordades med tanke på Kronborgs slott med dess riksintresse. Och det kulturargumentet är säkert hållbart även på den skånska sidan av Öresund.
Berlingskes läsare är med säkerhet någorlunda representativa för den danska opinionen. Därmed finns skäl att tro att nästa Öresundsförbindelse snart kommer att aktualiseras politiskt. Då är frågan: Är vi i Sverige beredda på den debatten och de diskussionerna? Det bör vi vara."
(NFÖ)

What Tallinn needs is more public transport lanes to make public transport faster. For example: I live in Viimsi, 10 km from the center of Tallinn but I have to go to school to downtown every morning. During rushhour, this could take as long as 45 minutes, which is too much. An additional lane for public transport at Pirita tee would shorten this time by 15-20 minutes.Viimsi's population is growing every year and the problem is becoming bigger. And this was only one example. At the moment people prefer a private car to public transport because moving with a car is faster and more comfortable. This causes quite large traffic jams, considering Tallinn's population, which is only about 400 000.

You should arrange car tarifs. That was done in Stockholm and it did succeed. Of course some motorists found it "unfair", but why should they have some extra rights to conquer city space and burden our globe with CO2?

Of course another good way is to make public transportation more attractive by seperating it from car lanes and giving full traffic light privileges to trams. That's how it's arranged in well-ordered public transportation cities like Göteborg, Strasbourg, Prague or Karlsruhe.

Btw. I found an interesting link for those who understand Swedish: http://www.ss.se/forum/viewtopic.php?p=101867#101867 All historical metro and tram schemes for Helsinki are introduced there very well.

^^
Metropolitan Tallin has 600.000? That's smaller than I thought!


Tallinn, yes, around 600 000. But we havent had a census in a LOOOOONG time :D And the countryside is so empty i wouldnt be surprised if it was more.

@Jape, Public transport gets light priviliges in 2007, atleast the system will be implemented by than, on the main centre streets.

Off topic: How big is (ie. what is the population of) the urban area of Tallinn?

Off topic: How big is (ie. what is the population of) the urban area of Tallinn?
400 000

@Staff Urban area? around 450 000, since we have to add Viimsi, Maardu and Muuga in it.

But its actually very very hard to talk about Figures at this point, as the last census was in 2000 and ALOT has changed since than.

Let me help you :lol:

Tallinn's population - 396,400. Information is new enough (2006-10-26) and it's source is reliable enough (Estonia's Embassy in Vilnius).

Here is 5 largest citys in Estonia:

1. Tallinn - 396 400
2. Tartu - 101 300
3. Narva - 67 400
4. Kohtla-Järve - 46 300
5. Pärnu - 44 600

http://www.estemb.lt/lang_20/rub_1682 (it's in Lithuanian) ;)

"Wikipedia" says that in Tallinn's metro area live 505,000 citizens (2006 year information)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallinn

Here you go kids :lol:

BUT IS THAT SO IMPORTANT?

Hm, can you explain me what is Tallinn's metro area? Maybe you can show some maps? :)

Hm, can you explain me what is Tallinn's metro area? Maybe you can show some maps? :)

I think it's something like the main city and the little towns which are surrounding it. Can't say exact teritories which this metro area includes, you should ask those who calculate these numbers thought :) I think metro area is very unstable gauge, in different calculations the numbers are often different :)

Can some Lithuanian tell me, which color of signs is used on Lithuanian motorways; I mean only on real motorways, equipped with this sign:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/johngang/roads/road_a2/IMG_5920.jpg

I need it for this (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=429095) thread.:D That would be all, thank you!:)

Since nobody else mentioned it, about a week ago the S-train semi-circle line was finally completed in Copenhagen with the opening of the Ny Ellebjerg station.

The line consists of 9 km of tracks, six new stations, and it has taken six years to complete. I have marked the new part in the middle with a lovely green color.

Very good for Copenhagen. Now we just need some more metro.

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/3296/dsbzv1.gif

http://www.dsb.dk/cs/Satellite?pagename=DSB/Page/Forside&c=Page&cid=1002716363264&bid=1148304786699&b=Nyhed

Ah, that is a lovely colour you have chosen to highlight the new extension, DD. :D

Finally it's open. Anyone got pics of the Ny Ellebjerg station?
With the ring completed, and the upcoming Metro Ring - CPH will have quite a decent system going on. :)

I read something about the S-tog getting a completely new "map", with new line names and lesser lines, in order to make it look more like the true metro system it actually is nowadays. Any truth to that?
Can't remember where I read it though.
I mean, the H/H+ and B/B+ lines just makes no sense to me really - why not just have a single line and combine the frequency or something? As it is now, the S-tog map looks a lot more complicated and messy than it should.

Um, I also found this weird zone map on dsb.dk, where all (?) heavy rail lines in the CPH metro area are shown, and not seperated by type at all. So, it's just a big mix of Lokalbaner (local trains), S-lines (metro), M-lines (driverless metro), Re-lines (commuter), Ö-lines (commuter) etc. :)

http://www.dsb.dk/cs/BlobServer?blobtable=ImageMap&blobheader=image%2Fjpeg&blobcol=urlbillede&blobkey=id&blobwhere=1148304790297&ssbinary=true

Anybody wanna count the stations? :D

Sorry for spamming this thread with Öresund stuff, but could any CPHers tell me what has happened to HUR-trafikken!?
What is happening back there when I'm outta town!? :nuts:

What's "Movia"? :)

From Movias homepage:
Om Trafikselskabet Movia
Trafikselskabet Movia er fra 1. januar 2007 det nye trafikselskab for hele Østdanmark efter en fusion af HUR, STS og VT.
Navnet Movia er sat sammen af de to latinske ord "moveo", som betyder bevægelse, og "via", som betyder vej, rute eller rejse.
Alle busser og lokalbaner er med i selskabet, så din bus og dit lokaltog er her stadig.
Selskabet er Danmarks største trafikselskab med omkring 220 mio. passagerer om året, 590 buslinjer, 4600 chauffører og ni lokalbanestrækninger.

And this is the best I could find of the new station:
http://www.bane.dk/db/filarkiv/4627/Nyellebjerg070101.jpg

edit: here are some more:
http://www.bane.dk/visArtikel.asp?artikelID=4780

I find the information about the new travel card "Rejsekort" more interesting: http://www.rejsekort.dk/Default.aspx?ID=56

Timeschedule:
Testing 2007
Seeland 2008
Countrywide 2009

The people behind this are the same as the ones who are making the countrywide system in the Netherlands (countrywide 2007 I believe). And one of their subcontractors is the MTR Corporation so I'm betting a lot of the technology will be based on the Hong Kong MTR which is good since it works (no fooling around like with the Ansaldo metro).

They have been talking about those card for so long - finally it looks like something is happening, nice!:)
The octopus card in Hong Kong is very user-friendly, so let's hope it is going to work as good in Denmark as over there...

yeah, that is going to be cool. But also a hassel, having to check you caRDRRrd both when you get on and of the train, bus etc...

In HK you check your card when getting on the bus, not sure how it's going to be in DK...

cphdude,
In HK/Shanghai/London (example of cities with good smart card systems) you only check your card when you get on the bus. However, since these cities use turnstiles on it's rail transportation systems, you check your card both on the way on and off. It's no problem whatsoever though, since you just keep your card deep inside your wallet and just tap your wallet against the card reading module - very easy.
Since there are no turnstiles in either the Metro or S-tog in CPH, I'm not sure how the cards will work there.


The MTR Corporation will most probably operate the Öresundtog in the future, instead of the joint operation DSB/Skånetrafiken - I can only see positive things in that. :)

Skånetrafiken will probably put it's "Octupus"-card into use during 2007 as well, and I'm sure the Scanian and CPH smart cards will be integrated in some way - preferably all the way.

The smart card system in Shanghai is very similar to the one in HK since the MTR Corporation has been a part of the development of the system in Shanghai (and some other cities in the mainland - Shenzhen and Guangzhou for example).
You can use the smart card on the Metro, all city buses, light rail, Maglev train, taxis, as well as stores/chains such as Lawson's, McDonald's and so on.