"Seaport" is almost topped out. "Seaboard" Square is south Channelside down by the Towers.

Working from home now and, returning from lunch, there's a lot of demolition that just started today at 11th/Cumberland/Meridian (two bulldozers going full speed and a couple of the smaller old warehouses are already down) ... is Seaboard Square underway?

Other projects ... Slade is going well ... 40-50 workers out there today, along with lots of activity at Seaport (looks like the sixth floor is almost topped out in two buildings, and poured concete for the ground floor in the third building).

According to the condo manager at Grand Central, "140 units" now occupied here, but they're also now marketing the condos as rentals as well ... it's now a "sales/rental center" on the ninth floor. When I asked about retail, he mentioned that "Sweetbay has been inquiring recently" though, like previous rumours, I'll believe it when I see it.
Atleast it is from a manager that works there and not just someone on here goign "Guess what, They're building a 1000 ft tower near TIA!"

Working from home now and, returning from lunch, there's a lot of demolition that just started today at 11th/Cumberland/Meridian (two bulldozers going full speed and a couple of the smaller old warehouses are already down) ... is Seaboard Square underway?



I remember earlier in the year the Seaboard people did say they would start construction on the hotel portion by Septmeber of this year, maybe they were accurate and it would be Seabaord in that case.

I remember earlier in the year the Seaboard people did say they would start construction on the hotel portion by Septmeber of this year, maybe they were accurate and it would be Seabaord in that case.

I'll walk down tomorrow to check it out again because I'm blocked from view from my place from where they were working today, but it was the parcel directly across from Towers of Channelside, the one that faces Meridian ... definitely something is happening.

Also, don't know if its been posted, but there are signs outside the parcel for the new office tower on Meridian and Channelside ... said it was changing from "CBD2 to CBD2" which I didn't understand, but said that "restaurants and retail spaces" would be included. Hearing will be held on October 25th according to the signs.

^^ drove by the Seaboard property this a.m. They are definitely working on removing old warehouses. Just the smallest of the buildings right now between 11th and Meridian, just north of the ToC. The main building is gone and they were digging up and removing the old foundation.

Anyone notice the lighting? Did it just start tonight? ... actually pretty cool. From Channelside, I can see everything but the West side, but East side seems to be pink/magenta constantly, while the middle is changing colors about every ten seconds (blue/green/white/gold/purple) ... looks like 3-4 units are fully lit, so maybe this is a private party or one-time thing ... but looks great (interesting at least).

Anyone notice the lighting? Did it just start tonight? ... actually pretty cool. From Channelside, I can see everything but the West side, but East side seems to be pink/magenta constantly, while the middle is changing colors about every ten seconds (blue/green/white/gold/purple) ... looks like 3-4 units are fully lit, so maybe this is a private party or one-time thing ... but looks great (interesting at least).

Sounds cool. Downtown needs as much cool lighting at night as it can get. Hopefully it is permanent.

Also, the Salde ceremony was yesterday. Did anyone go, and if so how was it?

^I didn't. I quit my job friday. I should have waited until this friday. lololol

Just had a chance to walk down 11th returning from Channelside, and the demolition of the other Seaboard Square warehouses is underway ... you can't see it from Meridian, but most/all of the interiors are down with (it looks like) 3-4 bulldozers down there. Wonder if they'll announce something soon.

And it looks like the interesting lights (still don't know if I like them, but at least its something) at the Plaza of Harbour Island might be permanent ... its going on again tonight.

I think the lights over at Harbour Island are in place for the grand opening week; I wouldn't count on them becoming a permanent fixture.

As for the activity on the Seaboard Square property, I've heard rumors which if true will be great news for all of us development fans here; but since it's only second hand information, I'll respect the forum by keeping it under wraps until it's confirmed. :tongue3:

Jason - you quit your job? Was it that bad? More importantly, do you already have something else lined up?

Will it or they be tall Q?

Seaboard Square had two towers that were 29 stories and another one in the 20 story range but it did have gave probably around 5 total buildings. Unless they changed it. I don't know if the portion that *may* start construction soon was one of the larger or one of the smaller portions of the project.

Wasn't the hotel part of Seaboard like a Marriott Spring Hill Suites or something along those lines?

That's what I'd heard or read as well, FloridaFuture. I was at the presentation that the Sembler group made for the Channel District Council some time ago on Seaboard Square, and they did mention building this amibitious project in phases. I believe the first phase was going to be the hotel, but I really haven't heard anything from them in quite a while, so who knows?

Jason - you quit your job? Was it that bad? More importantly, do you already have something else lined up?
I guess you could say the feeling was mutual. They wanted me to keep innovating things from the way they used to be, saving the company thousands of dollars, yet wanted me to keep working erratic hours for a ridiculously low wage. It was worth it for a while to get experience and work really close to home, but it was ultimately making me miserable, and that affected my performance, and who wants to work like that? Not me.

And no, I don't have a job... Anyone hiring CAD techs?

Seaboard Square had two towers that were 29 stories and another one in the 20 story range but it did have gave probably around 5 total buildings. Unless they changed it. I don't know if the portion that *may* start construction soon was one of the larger or one of the smaller portions of the project.

Wasn't the hotel part of Seaboard like a Marriott Spring Hill Suites or something along those lines?
Since it looks like people heard the rumors that Quegiebo had, I guess I'll share them to you guys.

Quebiebo pm'ed me that there will be about 3 phases that will last about 5 years, so it should be done by 2012. The first phase will include the Spring Hill Marriot hotel. Gary (Quegiebo) said that the hotel will be 16 stories tall. I think this is great. Should be 1 floor for retail, about 3-4 floors for parking and then around 11 floors for the hotel portion. And great planning, because this part should be done around the same time next year and give more hotel occupacy before the Super Bowl. Don't know if it is needed, but a great choice to buy a hotel room.

Next should be a 29-story mixed used tower. It will include Retail, Office, and a residential portion to it. So this will be beneficial for all the ones that are saying that Channelside needs some office spaces.

Last should be twin 25-story Residential Tower. So this will include a lot of condos and give the area office space. Can't forget all the retail space that will be included.

So pretty much, this will be a massive project for Channelside. I wasn't aware of how huge this was going to be before Gary told. Hopefully we will get to see renders for all 3 phases. Gary? :)

Here are some older renderings of Seaboard from Villagerealestate.blogspot.com:

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o236/JordanA_015/site_final.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o236/JordanA_015/site1_final.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o236/JordanA_015/sea5_final.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o236/JordanA_015/sea4_final.jpg

There is some similarity in style between these towers and something you might find on SoBe. Especially the shorter tower.

I guess you could say the feeling was mutual. They wanted me to keep innovating things from the way they used to be, saving the company thousands of dollars, yet wanted me to keep working erratic hours for a ridiculously low wage. It was worth it for a while to get experience and work really close to home, but it was ultimately making me miserable, and that affected my performance, and who wants to work like that? Not me.

And no, I don't have a job... Anyone hiring CAD techs?

Sorry to hear that, Jason, though I know exactly what you've been through. I experienced a similar work situation about 10 years ago which soured my performance and my respect for the Office, but I didn't quit; I was fired (ouch). It all worked out for the better though. I, too, was miserable and it really wasn't worth losing my sanity. :lol:

You've got plenty to offer for someone who'll appreciate you, Jason. Just hang in there! :)

Well there ya go. Here's the message you sent me no less than 24-hours ago:

"I don't mind if you tell me. And I swear I won't post it in the Channelside thread. I'll probably contact the developers and try to pull anything out of them." NPRG

Let me start by saying thanks for keeping your word. ;) I guess technically you didn't post it, but you may as well have.

As I mentioned in my initial response, I heard rumors that I had not confirmed and I didn't wish to get everyone's hopes up, but since it has peeked some curiosity, let me offer what I sent to you based on what I overheard:

Keep an eye out for a groundbreaking before years end. This 5.82 acre project will be completed in three phases and will take approximately five years to complete. The first phase involves development of a 16-story Spring Hill Suites by Marriott; the second phase is a 29-story mixed use retail/office/residential building and the final phase will include two 25-story residential towers.

The building to the far right in the second rendering provided by FlFuture is the proposed hotel that is supposed to begin the first phase. It's the shortest of the four proposed towers. It's the same building to the right of the twin towers that fall within the center of the first rendering.

However, and please keep in mind, this is not an absolute certainty as of this moment... again, from what I understand there are still legal/contractual issues and details to sort out. In other words, think about Trump Tower and how certainty sometimes turns out painfully less than certain. Let me also note that I'm am not involved in any way with this project nor any other project, I just happen to know individuals who are more "in the know" where Tampa's development is concerned and sometimes I overhear things. ;)

Anywho, of all the projects offered in channelside, I hope this one comes to life because of the density and the number of towers. Of course, I'm still a fan of The Place Phase II and hope to see it break ground soon, but even from the lips of the developer himself, that was supposed to occur over the summer and it's still not under construction. Bottom line is that you just never know unless you're the one actually signing the papers. :)

Well there ya go. Here's the message you sent me no less than 24-hours ago:

"I don't mind if you tell me. And I swear I won't post it in the Channelside thread. I'll probably contact the developers and try to pull anything out of them." NPRG

Let me start by saying thanks for keeping your word. ;) I guess technically you didn't post it, but you may as well have.

As I mentioned in my initial response, I heard rumors that I had not confirmed and I didn't wish to get everyone's hopes up, but since it has peeked some curiosity, let me offer what I sent to you based on what I overheard:

Keep an eye out for a groundbreaking before years end. This 5.82 acre project will be completed in three phases and will take approximately five years to complete. The first phase involves development of a 16-story Spring Hill Suites by Marriott; the second phase is a 29-story mixed use retail/office/residential building and the final phase will include two 25-story residential towers.

The building to the far right in the second rendering provided by FlFuture is the proposed hotel that is supposed to begin the first phase. It's the shortest of the four proposed towers. It's the same building to the right of the twin towers that fall within the center of the first rendering.

However, and please keep in mind, this is not an absolute certainty as of this moment... again, from what I understand there are still legal/contractual issues and details to sort out. In other words, think about Trump Tower and how certainty sometimes turns out painfully less than certain. Let me also note that I'm am not involved in any way with this project nor any other project, I just happen to know individuals who are more "in the know" where Tampa's development is concerned and sometimes I overhear things. ;)

Anywho, of all the projects offered in channelside, I hope this one comes to life because of the density and the number of towers. Of course, I'm still a fan of The Place Phase II and hope to see it break ground soon, but even from the lips of the developer himself, that was supposed to occur over the summer and it's still not under construction. Bottom line is that you just never know unless you're the one actually signing the papers. :)
But I did say that I got all that from you and didn't take credit. And I just didn't want people going "Really, a hotel? What Kind? How tall? What color will it be? What color is the sky?". And I also pm'ed telling you that I did post it. I feel like a lier :cry:

But anyways, I hope this happens. Since the renders are old, I wonder if anything has been redesigned on it.

I guess you could say the feeling was mutual. They wanted me to keep innovating things from the way they used to be, saving the company thousands of dollars, yet wanted me to keep working erratic hours for a ridiculously low wage. It was worth it for a while to get experience and work really close to home, but it was ultimately making me miserable, and that affected my performance, and who wants to work like that? Not me.

And no, I don't have a job... Anyone hiring CAD techs?

Would you like to train me in CAD? :)

OK, here is something that should jar people a bit -- it's not exactly news from Towres at Channelside, it's an EVENT scheduled at Towers at Channelside... And it's not a run-of-the-mill "meet your neighbors" party:

http://www.wetultrapool.com/

Flash intensive site. I think this is scheduled for October 27th...

OK, here is something that should jar people a bit -- it's not exactly news from Towres at Channelside, it's an EVENT scheduled at Towers at Channelside... And it's not a run-of-the-mill "meet your neighbors" party:

http://www.wetultrapool.com/

Flash intensive site. I think this is scheduled for October 27th...

Thanks for posting this John.

What the hell is up with this Wet Ultra Pool thing? I thought the condo owners (i.e. the HOA) owned the pool.... This website and sponsor info reads as though the condo owners don't actually own the pool and are merely a member of the Wet Ultra Pool... Could this be the case?

Wow, I'm speechless. I don't consider myself a prude, but if this is for real, and as the sponsor package link indicates, a condo owner there can expect these types of events to occur on a regular basis, I'd be suing the developer for breach of contract.

Just what I'd want to hear, loud nightclub like parties happening right below my condo until 2am.... Wow is all I can say, and not in a good way...

WTF

Uh. Something tells me this was not originally part of the package T@C residents had in mind.

That pool is gonna be TRASHED in a year, two.

Hmm. It says the "Wet Ultra Pool will be open to select clientele on Sunday afternoons during the pool season. In addition to this one weekly event, Wet will also play host to some of Tampa's most sought after special events and select private engagements."

I guess they weren't kidding about resort style living, this is right out of Vegas. There is also a New Years Eve event, but no info on it.

But it may not be for real, I almost want to say this is a mistake and they meant the pool at the Hard Rock. For example, the after party is at Floyd's which is at the casino and is no where close to Channelside. Also I searched around and found another event listing saying "Wet Ultra Pool @ Hard Rock". And they give the address as 615 Channelside Drive which is not correct, that's what the mall across the street is. IIRC the actual address is off Cumberland.

I don't see what the big deal is... They built a huuuge resort style pool deck and club area... I thought it was obvious it wasn't built just to serve a couple hundred people living in the building.

I don't see what the big deal is... They built a huuuge resort style pool deck and club area... I thought it was obvious it wasn't built just to serve a couple hundred people living in the building.

I respectfully disagree with you on this. I remember getting a marketing brochure on this project and nothing stated that the pool area was a leased amenity, or to be shared with a private entity (disclosure of which is required by Florida Statutes).

Why would one want to pay such a high price for a condo and high HOA fees, just to have 1,500+ members of the public come in and trash their homes (I consider my entire condo building to be like my home, and I expect my fellow neighbors/guests to respect/care for it just as I do).

Besides the legal aspect and ownership issues. The beauty of Channelside in my opinion is that you can walk from your condo to Channelside Bay Plaza and have a great time to party, then come back to your condo and enjoy the luxury surroundings. I just can't imagine a demographic that would support that many $400k+ units wanting to actually live in a nightclub-style enviroment (okay, call me a prude). I don't want to feel like I'm living at The Palms in Vegas.

Skypoint, for example, has one of the best master association deed restriction documents I've ever seen for a mixed-use highrise. A party such as the one described on the Wet Pool website would never be allowed at Skypoint (even if the pool deck was a shared amenity, which it isn't). I was impressed with just how thorough Novare was in protecting the homeowners (and themselves, really).

Also, as much as I would enjoy partying with Playmates and the like, I certainly wouldn't want it to become the mainstay image for the condo building I'm living in. If that was the case, I could kiss families, most retirees, and half the other population out as far as potential buyers for resales.

To sum it up, based on all the marketing and press about TOC, I always thought it was going to be an upscale, classy, yet lively condo building. If Wet Ultra Pool is for real, Tampa just got a sleazy, party crazy condo building that is going to be a real dissappointment for the original buyers who thought they were buying into a class project. Not only that, they will face potentially disastrous legal and financial liabilites and headaches from sharing common elements with a private entity hosting late night parties of 1,000+ people.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope this is just a big mistake from the production company that's promoting the event. If it's actually being held at the Hard Rock, then I take everything back that I've written here. I don't normally act so quick to make judgements, but this just blows my mind. Hopefully is all for nothing.

I edited my response as you replied...

All I'm saying is that I specifically recall the developer pointing out how the pool area would be a true resort style pool area, and would have a high capacity which could be used for special events... And now it is.

And when I heard about a resort pool area, restaurants and a huge resort quality spa and gym being built in an entertainment/tourist district, I thought the project was being marketed to people who want to live an active social lifestyle, not people who want to quietly read a book by the pool.

That's cool. I know where you're coming from. I remember the media calling it a Las Vegas style pool experience, but I always thought that was to give people the idea of servers bringing drinks poolside with the whole luxe scene and all... Like the Venetian or Bellagio, a high class Las Vegas experience.

I'm all for having fun and partying with neighbors. For me, the difference is that hopefully my neighbors are in the mindset that they are personally held liable for their or their guests actions. If they do something stupid, they have to live with all the other residents who know what they did. There's accountability when it's residents involved.

When you have 1000+ members of the public using what is thought to be a pool within the condo domain, they will do whatever they want when they pay their $20 admission charge and never look back. I'm sure there will be drugs and whatnot at these parties, including the New Years Eve one that is suggested on the website.

At a country club, or any respectable social club for that matter, no member wants to have the others look or treat them with disdain because of their or their guests ill behavior. To be shamed amongst the club members would cause most people to make a quick and quiet exit.

I know I've totally spent too much time even thinking about since I don't live there (and I'm no longer speechless). I just get so heated about it since I actually thought about buying there, thinking it would be awesome to have such a cool pool setup (I was thinking it would be more like a resort experience). It just blows my mind that I could have been one of those residents who could be shocked to find out what may actually be a normal occurance in their home (like I said, I think of a whole building as my home).

You probably won't ever see me get so heated up again, unless it's about grafitti (err, I mean urban art) in the Channel District :)

I agree that the parties seem a little unseemly for such a venue, but that's Tampa. Really, what else could it be with the nightlife crowd in this city?

One thing I just thought of... they're also only having these parties on nights when people should be expecting noise... Halloween? New Years? In an entertainment district?

Haha yea the flyers make TcC look like the new Club 112 or something. But it must really be a massive deck to have fire marshall approval for over 1000 people. That's well over capacity of the whole building (~250 units) all on the deck at once.

Holy crap, I wish I knew what that link was taking me to before I went to it at work!!!! I'm sure I'll be flagged for that one.

sorry Random... I didn't go through it much to see if there was NSFW content.

More Channelside News:

Grille 29 shut down a couple of weeks ago ... apparently, the owner was in a major dispute with the landlords and just closed, even though they claimed they were profitable there.

Splitsville started opening for lunch daily about 3-4 months ago, but now it looks like they've shifted back to Fri-Sun for lunch ... the "Lunch Every Day" sign was down, and it was closed today.

Hurricane Pass Outfitters is long gone, and they're doing a lot of construction in there ... is this the new Wet Willie's that was mentioned earlier? Wonder if that got the go-ahead.

The Place is now starting to fill up. Three moving trucks at the same time just an hour ago (looked like three different units). From the North side of the building last night (the only side where I have a clear view), there were a lot of units lit up last night with televisions and lights.

Ventana is also starting to have a number of move-ins based on the furnished balconies.

The Slade is really moving along ... lots of foundation work being completed (lots of concrete base).

Seaboard Square is almost totally demolished ... looks like only about 1/4 left standing ... surprised there hasn't been an announcement yet.

Seaport is topped out now at six stories with about half the site, and the other half is just now starting to go up with the first story.

In Need Of A Crystal Ball
By JANIS D. FROELICH, The Tampa Tribune

Published: October 3, 2007

CHANNEL DISTRICT - The Slade at Channelside, under construction at 202 N. 11th St., hosted an unusually introspective groundbreaking recently.

Not that the normal trappings of such events weren't evident: Mayor Pam Iorio was on hand, mimosas were flowing at 10 a.m. and a model one-bedroom condominium with sleek furnishings was open for inspection.

But then the speakers, one by one, mulled over the sluggish market.

In thanking his contractor, Miami developer Juan Porro said, 'In this tough market in these tough times, our product is at an easy price.'

'We will persevere,' said Jerry Rappaport Jr. of New Boston Fund, one of the project's financers. 'This product will be successful.'

He described Tampa as 'not a sleepy town' and then asked, 'Why would anyone start a condominium project at this time?' before giving kudos to The Slade's sales force, which has sold 65 percent of the 280 units.

Brian Covey of Wells Fargo, another project financer, told the crowd on The Slade's third-floor sales center to put aside the negative news about sliding home sales.

'We are confident in the market,' he said.

But the construction of the eight-story, retail-residential complex with units from $250,000 to $500,000 could be the last for a while in a neighborhood that has enjoyed a housing boom in the past five years. Four projects are slowly filling up: Grand Central at Kennedy, The Place, Ventana and The Towers of Channelside.

As he prepared to speak at The Slade groundbreaking, city Councilman Tom Scott said he doesn't go to many such ceremonies these days.

'How many more?' he asked. 'That's the question.'

Iorio said she's optimistic based on the Channel District's fast-changing history.

'It went from shabby to chic,' she said. 'And what did it take? Pioneers.'

She pointed to Grand Central's completion as a perfect backdrop.

But developers such as Greg Minder, president of intowngroup, expressed reservations about a rush to keep building in the Channel District.

Minder, who is overseeing the recently completed SkyPoint and the under construction Element residential projects downtown, said intowngroup's plans for a residential tower and park on 11th Street are on hold.

'We'll look at the supply and demand,' he said. 'The whole urban idea is coming together.'

Michael Chen, the city's Community Redevelopment Agency representative for downtown and the Channel District, said Sembler Investments is building a hotel as part of its 5.8-acre, 725-unit Seaboard Square project between Meridian Avenue and 12th Street.

'Some buildings have gone down on the property,' he said of the three sheds bulldozed last week. 'And they are working on the 11th Street realignment. So everything is moving forward.'

Reporter Janis D. Froelich can be reached at (813) 835-2104 or jfroelich@tampatrib.com.

http://southtampa2.tbo.com/content/2007/oct/03/st-in-need-of-a-crystal-ball1/?news

Wow - let's 1) talk down the market and 2) forget that it takes two years or so to build a building and no one knows what the market will be like then.

Michael Chen, the city's Community Redevelopment Agency representative for downtown and the Channel District, said Sembler Investments is building a hotel as part of its 5.8-acre, 725-unit Seaboard Square project between Meridian Avenue and 12th Street.

I guess that confirms what's going to spring up first on that property. Given the market, that seems to make sense.

Thanks for posting this John.

What the hell is up with this Wet Ultra Pool thing? I thought the condo owners (i.e. the HOA) owned the pool.... This website and sponsor info reads as though the condo owners don't actually own the pool and are merely a member of the Wet Ultra Pool... Could this be the case?

Wow, I'm speechless. I don't consider myself a prude, but if this is for real, and as the sponsor package link indicates, a condo owner there can expect these types of events to occur on a regular basis, I'd be suing the developer for breach of contract.

Just what I'd want to hear, loud nightclub like parties happening right below my condo until 2am.... Wow is all I can say, and not in a good way...

I assume that the HOA will profit from those who want to lease it. When the residents take over the HOA, perhaps they will be able to renegotiate the lease - or even choose not to renew it. But personally - I don't see why you would want to do this. It will probably be only special occasions and it has the potential to bring something totally NEW to downtown and make TOC a destination onto itself. I only see it bringing the property value of TOC up. Personally, I am more impressed by TOC than I am Skypoint. Just my opinion though. Skypoint looks pretty nice as well..

Anyone know what's going on at 12th Street at Kennedy? Bulldozers started tearing up the road fronting the East side of the Amazon Fuse and Rubber building ... it looks like they're either expanding the road or adding parking spaces. Doesn't look like its development, as some of the workers had "City of Tampa Safety Officer" vests on.

Wet Willie's is a "go". Went to lunch at Channelside, peered in the window of the old clothes shop in the courtyard (next to the art/picture store), and blueprints were laying there that had "Wet Willie's" listed ...

New art gallery has gone into the old Seaboard Square sales office (on 12th across from the Channelside garage).

Entire site for Seaboard Square has been demolished and nearly everything has been trucked away. Hope the hotel construction starts soon.

Also, remember, 5-cent streetcar rides all day on Saturday. Centro Ybor is having Octoberfest activities, various stations having events, and Channelside is having "Save Our Arts" with music, films, art, fashion shows, etc. Along with the "Tour of Homes", should be a good Saturday down here.

Hopefully they either wised up or the city stepped in, but anyhow, Wet Ultra Pool Party is now dead (according to their website: www.wetultrapool.com).

Good riddens, I say...

^I wonder if they had obtained liquor permits or whatever? Perhaps not?

BTW when as was at T@C on the urban home tour yesterday, they said the hotel at Seaboard Square would be a Hotel Indigo. (Intercontinental brand) That would probably be an upgrade over the originally rumored Marriott Springhill Suites.

That is a great hotel... They base their architecture on art and architecture known as the Golden Mean, the Fibonacci Sequence or Phi. They are a little quirky, but they are good hotels.

Anyone know anything about the work at the lot bounded by Meridian and Nebraska, and Kennedy and Twiggs? That old building on Twiggs/Meridian has a few bulldozers out working today and it looks like the interior has been completely demolished, with the building soon behind.

The lot bordered by Kennedy/Meridian has some ground work underway, and a couple of new "Office Spaces for Sale" signs are out. I haven't seen any announcement though ...

^I think there was a very very small office project proposed for that site a while back. I forgot the name and never saw the deisgn. But I *think* it was under 5 stories. Kind of a cornered off site against the Crosstown.

Was there any signs out with a developer or architect name or website?

Is it this one? It's close by at least.

http://gasparproperties.com/WACOmainsale.htm

^Yep, I think so.

http://gasparproperties.com/Waco-03c%20rendering_small.jpg

It doesn't look horrible, it's just so short. This would have been better located in Ybor/Adamo.

Should have brought that complaint up in 1916, this building has history:

Located in the Channel District, this 30,000 square foot, two-story office building was originally a warehouse constructed in 1917. It has most of its original terra cotta block and period Chicago brick shell walls. Gaspar will preserve these walls for their industrial look, while providing up-to-date building efficiency and features.

^Yep, I think so.

http://gasparproperties.com/Waco-03c%20rendering_small.jpg

It doesn't look horrible, it's just so short. This would have been better located in Ybor/Adamo.
I totally agree

^Uh, hello?

It's an historic renovation. Good reuse of space. The site isn't that desirable.

^^^ ya but the building has been completly de-historicified.
Its modern now. I think it looks cool. But they should've built on top of it like many a manhattan buildings.

^Uh, hello?

It's an historic renovation. Good reuse of space. The site isn't that desirable.

Yea it is cornered off in a bad spot, but, like Jbrisco said, it doesn't look or have a historic feel in that rendering. I didn't say it was a bad project overall, it's just looking at mapquest aerial, it isn't as dense (height, or really layout) as I'd like.

Should have brought that complaint up in 1916, this building has history:

Now if this was brand new it would be the type of stuff to have on Ybor. ;) There you go. After all, Box Factory were successfully converted to lofts along Adamo.

^^^ ya but the building has been completly de-historicified.
Its modern now. I think it looks cool. But they should've built on top of it like many a manhattan buildings.
As JBrisco said, they could had built on top of it. Or atleast made them into lofts/apartments. This is just a couple office spaces, we need more than that.

Eh. I like it. It's 30k sq feet of hip office space in Channelside (where there isn't much else but half empty condos and empty retail). That's a good thing. It would be especially bad for residential as it's sandwiched between the crosstown and train tracks. As in a few feet away from each. If this wasn't going there it would just be one more abandoned building for years to come.

^Until the tracks come up.

Is ConAgra finally going to leave?

^I think there was a very very small office project proposed for that site a while back. I forgot the name and never saw the deisgn. But I *think* it was under 5 stories. Kind of a cornered off site against the Crosstown.

Was there any signs out with a developer or architect name or website?

Walked by from across the street, and the only developer/architect name I could see was "LANE" and a phone number of 813.288.1800 ... but they're doing more work today.

But the pictures/location you and JonKnee posted look correct ... apparently they won't be tearing down the existing buliding after all ...

They do a pretty good job with preservations, check out the list:

http://gasparproperties.com/preservation.htm

The General Automotive Building houses TPD Internal Affairs and is classy. Right across the street from Fly and on the same block as The Arlington (which is another beautiful restoration).

From the downtown partnership about this office project:

Pretty much what we've now already heard, but it does give a completion date.

The Offices at Channelside, a redevelopment project of a warehouse to commercial office use, continues. The 1930s building is unique because it offers both terracotta and brick walls. Developers plan on having very unique offering for businesses in a real urban feel with large windows and exposed ceilings. The project is on track to be completed in January 08. The project is located on the corner of Meridian and Twiggs Streets.

http://www.tampasdowntown.com/newsletter.aspx?newid=67

Is ConAgra finally going to leave?

Not that I'm aware of. But whenever they do, there would certainly be room along the west side of Meridian for development, or a significant park. (or most likely, a mix)

This info was from the TBT yesterday, I can't find it online:


McGraw's is being retooled as "Hook Nightclub" and will be open to the public in November. Basically a country bar wasn't doing well with the demographic in the area, no shit is what I say.

Wet Willies, as previously noted, is going into the old Hurricane Pass Outfitters slot. Could open by Christmas.

The owners of Thai Thani are opening up a Japanese restaurant called Oishi next to their location on the second floor.

From a trusted friend (and hotel developer/investor), Kimpton Hotels are close to announcing their first Tampa-area hotel within the next month or so. By 2009, they hope to have two, possibly three hotels, under construction or completed in the area. It looks like the first one will be in Channelside (though they're still investigating properties downtown Tampa as well), the next in downtown St. Pete, and the third to be determined (mentioned Ybor, the beaches, North Sarasota, and also, surprisingly, by the Hard Rock Casino, depending on what happens to the casino with new potential gambling laws ... I still find that a stretch though).

If they come, this is great. Kimptons are fantastic boutique hotels, usually designed with a "theme" restaurant as well along with impeccible service and interesting amenities (always free high speed Internet, funky leopard-print robes at many, Goldfish as "temporary pets" during your visit, wine tastings each evening). I should know more in the next 2-3 weeks.

Never heard of them(Kimpton) before, but their announcement to the Tampa Bay market, seems positive.

Just checked their website. It looks like they have wonderful rooms, very detailed indeed and different themes to them. Most of the projects look like they renovated buildings, I can't think of them renovating anything in Channelside, cause there isn't much, so will this be their first project they start from scratch. Can't wait for more detail.

Thanks

I've stayed at a Klimpton hotel - the Nine Zero in Boston. Very nice. Something similar, or even more moderately priced, would be a great addition to the Channelside area.

I've been wondering since I read the post earlier this morning where they're proposing to build this hotel. Perhaps the site of the old Finergy project (12th and Washington)? Or perhaps where the defunct Fairmont Hotel was to be built (next to Internat'l Trade Bldg on Channelside)?

Would really help Channelside become more of a "destination" if both the Indigo and the Klimpton brand hotels were to build in the next couple years.

Kimpton hotels are nice - they'd probably be the most upscale staying spot in Tampa, or at the very least attract the niche that isn't particularly enthused about the limited choice of "Marriot"-type hotels we have downtown.

I've had a pleasant time in one of their SF properties and hope to see them in the Channel District. It'd really elevate the area.

^When the Four Seasons goes up on Rocky Point, I think that's going to take the cake for a while.

I'm excited to see some more distinctive hotels going up (or being renovated) downtown, and not just brands from the ultra-mainstream hotel chains.

^When the Four Seasons goes up on Rocky Point, I think that's going to take the cake for a while.

I'm excited to see some more distinctive hotels going up (or being renovated) downtown, and not just brands from the ultra-mainstream hotel chains.

Ritz-Carlton not Four Seasons right?

The Seaboard Square Indigo hotel may also fill that gap.

^Right. Ritz-Carlton... Fuck I keep mixing things up lately!!!

Just a word to the wise... In February the TCC has stated that they are going to be hearing what the Florida Aquarium is planning to do with the land next to the Florida Aquarium. Wilson Miller is going to be the contractor and also, the F. A. is also hiring a contractor.

Could that be the $6m expansion the Aquarium had a press release about a few weeks ago?

Steve

^Or the long term plans for the surface lot in front of Terminal 3?

^Right. Ritz-Carlton... Fuck I keep mixing things up lately!!!

Speaking of that, anybody else heard anything new about the ritz on rocky point? I thought the announcement regarding if it was going up or not was supposed to have come out by now...

I think that this could be about something else. I heard Saul- Sena saying that she wanted to hear what the FA planned to do with the lot. I do not know if it had to do with the 6-million dollar deal, or if that is a separate plan. There might be something else in the works that has not been in the presses.

Wilson Miller presented a vision for future development around North Ybor Channel to the Channel District Council last night. This project would lie within the "wedge" area roughly bound by Channelside Dr on the West, LRS Expressway to the North, W Harbor St to the South, and Ybor Channel on the East.

Gibraltar Development hopes to turn these 22 acres into a mixed use project, with three main towers. Initial plans call for two of the buildings to be residential, with the third primarily office. Also included in the drawings were a new TECO Streetcar stop, three parks and a "Harborwalk," possibly with cafes and outdoor performing space.

No heights were given for the towers, as it is in the very early stages of planning. They did say that all three buildings would have very unique and seperate architectural styles.

This goes before City Council for preliminary approval on January 10. They may build in phases, with the office tower kicking off the project (especially given the current housing situation in Florida). Each tower would be presented and approved individually.

Wilson Miller is also stating that this would be a DRI - Development of Regional Impact. Not completely sure what falls into that category, but it sounds important huh? Maybe one of you guys in the business would have more info on that.

In all, it was very well-received within the CDC. It would be a major parcel "linking" Channelside to Ybor and the Adamo Corridor (which they anticipate going through it's own metamorphisis when the new IKEA is built in 2009).

^Cool, I'll be looking at for this.

However you said there would be 3 parks, (I assume they'd be seprate) I'd rather there just be one bigger park.

Gibraltar is the developer of Venu...

I can not wait to see the renderings! Hot stuff!!! I do not see Channelside stopping construction for a little while, (and they might as well just keep on building to resurge the housing boom)...lol

Wilson Miller presented a vision for future development around North Ybor Channel to the Channel District Council last night. This project would lie within the "wedge" area roughly bound by Channelside Dr on the West, LRS Expressway to the North, W Harbor St to the South, and Ybor Channel on the East.

Gibraltar Development hopes to turn these 22 acres into a mixed use project, with three main towers. Initial plans call for two of the buildings to be residential, with the third primarily office. Also included in the drawings were a new TECO Streetcar stop, three parks and a "Harborwalk," possibly with cafes and outdoor performing space.

No heights were given for the towers, as it is in the very early stages of planning. They did say that all three buildings would have very unique and seperate architectural styles.

This goes before City Council for preliminary approval on January 10. They may build in phases, with the office tower kicking off the project (especially given the current housing situation in Florida). Each tower would be presented and approved individually.

Wilson Miller is also stating that this would be a DRI - Development of Regional Impact. Not completely sure what falls into that category, but it sounds important huh? Maybe one of you guys in the business would have more info on that.

In all, it was very well-received within the CDC. It would be a major parcel "linking" Channelside to Ybor and the Adamo Corridor (which they anticipate going through it's own metamorphisis when the new IKEA is built in 2009).

People should be aware that this land was rezoned some time ago to CBD-2, which is the same zoning for the DT core. There also more than three buildings. There are simply three landmark towers that will be a part of this very large project. From what I understand, this would be like Grand Central and T@C combined... Only bigger. And taller.

Maybe I'll trot myself on down to Wilson Miller and get some pics for the site... I have to go DT tomorrow, so we'll see if I have any luck... lol... Maybe I can score a job while I'm at it... Fat chance of that, I'm sure.

This must be a bigger project than that in the area I'm looking at here:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/thehappysmith/GrainElevator.jpg

Is there room here for 3+ towers, 3 parks, etc? This doesn't look like 22 acres to me.
Those drydocks are still quite active and employ actual real humans. Are they... going away? Moving someplace? Do I have my location confused? Is the parcel bigger than what I've pictured?
Of course any project here would be better than the open sandpit that currently occupies most of the territory I'm picturing. What would become of the grain elevator? Is it still used? (I rather like it, myself.)

Is there room here for 3+ towers, 3 parks, etc? This doesn't look like 22 acres to me.
I believe they said 22 acres, but I may have heard wrong. Regardless, the drawings show three primary tower within the area you've outlined.

Those drydocks are still quite active and employ actual real humans. Are they... going away? Moving someplace?
The ship repair company's lease expires in 2008, I believe, and they will be moving. The new businesses should employ a lot more real humans! :lol:

Do I have my location confused? Is the parcel bigger than what I've pictured?
Nope and nope.

Of course any project here would be better than the open sandpit that currently occupies most of the territory I'm picturing.
Agreed!

What would become of the grain elevator? Is it still used?
Don't know if it's used or not, but the elevator is coming down.

What is the story with the Towers of Channelside? Is it finally complete? Are people moving in? I've been a bit out of the news on this for a while.

At he Urban Home tour, people were already moved in and moving in to the East tower. The pool deck was "at least a month away form being done" about a month ago.

The west tower still has interior work.

I was down there for a hockey game last night and there were lots of lights on in both towers. One balcony on the West tower had christmas lights, so I would assume that both buildings are now open.

I can not wait until we have people all over the place and there is a lot more going on.

Demo update - I was running on Channelside Drive last night, and noticed that they have started demo'ing the two buildings on the SW corner of Whiting and Channelside where the Del Villar is planned.

^Mercury Advisors are developing Del Villar right? If so, has their been any progress or news on the Martin, another one of their projects, that was announced first?

Hmm... Del Villar was to come after The Martin.... I wonder if they're clearing the parcel to market it, and take their profit via value adding (they rezoned it, cleared it; it's a turnkey site)...

If so, not a good sign for the short term, though longterm, it could be a plus since now there would be two developers ready to go, not one, when the market turns.

Perhaps the schedule changed after the Martin went apartment instead of condo.

Why does it seem like no retail has opened up in those buildings?
Has the commercial market slowed too? What retail has opened up. I saw a couple of things at GC.

^Commercial is resistant to go into an area where there is little nearby residences still, and even less daytime workers close enough to frequent... Unless they're getting a killer price or a big tax break, and new retail coming into DT isn't getting either for the most part.

Why does it seem like no retail has opened up in those buildings?
Has the commercial market slowed too? What retail has opened up. I saw a couple of things at GC.


GC doesn't yet have any retail (at least in the traditional sense of the word). The second floor businesses have opened up, which does include a plastic surgeon. But the grocery store, the Panera Bread, and all the other great amenities that were supposed to come with this project have yet to materialize. I did hear that the commercial retail aspect of this project was supposed to start taking shape in 2008, but we shall see.

Hmm... Del Villar was to come after The Martin.... I wonder if they're clearing the parcel to market it, and take their profit via value adding (they rezoned it, cleared it; it's a turnkey site)...

If so, not a good sign for the short term, though longterm, it could be a plus since now there would be two developers ready to go, not one, when the market turns.

Their current plan is to build the Del Villar first and The Martin will come later. They are redesigning The Martin (or at least trying to), because the overall design was too expensive to build. They think by making some changes they can substantially lower the contruction cost. Of course the Del Villar has it's challenges too. It will require some sort of automated parking system, but the ones they originally planned on are very expensive and they are looking at alternatives. Either way, they plan to come out of the ground on the Del Villar first.

^Awesome... Thanks for the heads up.

Kimpton Hotels Coming ...

From a trusted friend (and hotel developer/investor), Kimpton Hotels are close to announcing their first Tampa-area hotel within the next month or so. By 2009, they hope to have two, possibly three hotels, under construction or completed in the area. It looks like the first one will be in Channelside (though they're still investigating properties downtown Tampa as well), the next in downtown St. Pete, and the third to be determined...I should know more in the next 2-3 weeks.

Hey Kentski, any updates on the Kimpton Hotels coming to Tampa?

Kimpton Hotels Coming ...

From a trusted friend (and hotel developer/investor), Kimpton Hotels are close to announcing their first Tampa-area hotel within the next month or so. By 2009, they hope to have two, possibly three hotels, under construction or completed in the area. It looks like the first one will be in Channelside (though they're still investigating properties downtown Tampa as well), the next in downtown St. Pete, and the third to be determined...I should know more in the next 2-3 weeks.

Hey Kentski, any updates on the Kimpton Hotels coming to Tampa?

Have to be a little careful, but last I heard, they're still shooting for Channelside and now, probably, downtown St. Pete ... Two hotels in the next couple of years. That's all I know ...

Progress on Seaport Channelside in the form of exterior paint. The building at the corner of Twiggs and 12th St is being painted, and can easily be seen from Channelside Drive (or 12th Street). The Twiggs side had not yet been painted when I drove by this morning.

Color scheme looks OK (kind of a slate blue, a brick red, and a pale yellow).

I still can't believe that they built residences to the same height as the hellish Selmon next to it, and the parking garage flanking it.

Just seems so counterintuitive to me... Which is why I guess it's a good thing I'm not the one making such decisions.

HART and Hooters have discontinued the weekday lunchtime shuttle from DT to Channelside.

Check this thread for more info

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=556059

More on Prime Meridian today from the Trib.

http://media.tbo.com/photos/trib/2007/dec/1211prm1.jpg

Downtown Project Raises Standards

By DAVE SIMANOFF, The Tampa Tribune

Published: December 12, 2007

TAMPA - In the architectural renderings, Prime Meridian Center is 20 stories of cool blue arched glass, banded with strips of precast concrete the color of sand.

It's not hard to imagine the building growing orange and pink in the late throes of a Florida sunset, or reflecting the violet and purple skies after a rainstorm.

But the most important color at Prime Meridian Center is the one you won't see in a sketch or on its facade.

That's the color green.

Prime Meridian Center, the first major new office building to rise in Tampa since 100 North Tampa opened in 1992, will follow the Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design standards established by the U.S. Green Building Council.

LEED promotes sustainability, conservation and environmental protection through smart design, an emphasis on reusable and recycled materials, and saving power and water through efficient heating, cooling, plumbing and lighting systems.

Trammell Crow Co., Prime Meridian Center's developer, has registered the office building's plans with the Green Building Council. Construction is expected to begin early next year.

The Green Building Council will only certify a building as LEED compliant once it is completed. Trammell Crow expects to finish Prime Meridian Center in January 2010.

Right now, only three buildings in the Tampa Bay area have LEED certification: the Happy Feet Plus shoe store in Clearwater, a community building in Dunedin and a small office building in St. Petersburg.

Decision Came As An 'Epiphany'

Veteran developer Robert Abberger is Trammell Crow's senior managing director in Florida. Ask him to explain his decision to pursue an environmentally sustainable, LEED-standard office building, and he will earnestly use terms like "epiphany" and "eye opening."

Abberger explained that clients in Orlando and Sarasota recently hired him to work on LEED-standard office and condominium projects, which helped him realize how important sustainable development is - and how much more efficient a LEED-certified building can be, when it comes to energy usage, than a traditional building.

Abberger also said about a year ago, Trammell Crow was purchased by commercial real estate giant CB Richard Ellis, which had made a massive commitment to sustainable development. As the two companies integrated, Abberger was tapped to join several task forces that worked on environmental issues, which deepened his commitment.

LEED-standard buildings "are not only healthier to be in, but also good stewards of our limited resources, and also have a positive impact on our community," he said.

Prime Meridian Center will cost about $150 million to build, or about $333 a square foot. Abberger said some of the building components - such as the more sophisticated power systems or plumbing fixtures - will cost more than they would have cost in a traditional building, but that investment in efficient infrastructure will save Trammell Crow money in operating costs.

The water and power bills for office buildings vary greatly, depending on how the structure was built, how old it is and how the tenants use the space. Abberger estimates that most of the major office buildings in downtown Tampa cost about $12 a square foot a year to operate, and Prime Meridian Center will "conservatively" cost $1 to $1.50 a square foot a year less.

Josh Bomstein, vice president of the Florida Gulf Coast chapter of the U.S. Green Building Council, said that Trammell Crow's example will show other developers that LEED standards and sustainable development have moved into the mainstream.

"Trammell Crow doing it says to me that it's the smart thing to do. It raises the bar in the industry," he said. "They are not in the business of spending foolishly on their construction dollars."

Bomstein, who is also vice president of business development for Clearwater-based Creative Contractors, said many tenants may start to start to seek out space in sustainable office buildings, just as many shoppers are looking for green options in supermarkets and malls.

"Green in general - whether you're talking about green buildings or green anything - is everywhere," he said. "You can't pick up a newspaper or magazine without seeing some green things. You have to be in a cave not to have been exposed to it."

Trammell Crow isn't the only office developer with green plans in the Tampa Bay area.

Crescent Resources intends to build its next two office buildings in the West Shore district to LEED standards. Rubenstein Partners has registered plans for a West Shore office park with the U.S. Green Building Council. Liberty Property Trust also has a LEED-standard building in the works for its Woodland Corporate Center, according to the building council listings.

Building Will Set Other Standards, Too

Abberger said he is not worried about competition from new office buildings in the suburbs. He said Prime Meridian Center will provide the comforts of new suburban office buildings - such as large floors that can accommodate a lot of employees efficiently - as well as a bevy of downtown amenities to keep workers happy, such as easy access to the Channelside Bay Plaza entertainment center, The Florida Aquarium and the St. Pete Times Forum.

Compared with a suburban office building, many of the existing downtown towers don't provide very big floors, forcing tenants to divide their staffs onto many levels, Abberger said. Also, many downtown buildings don't provide a lot of parking for tenants, whereas Prime Meridian Center's adjacent parking deck will provide tenants with about the same amount of spaces they would receive in a suburban lot, he said.

Trammell Crow expects rental rates to run about $30 a square foot a year, which is comparable with rates in the West Shore district, but about 30 percent higher than other downtown buildings.

Abberger said he thinks Prime Meridian Center will stand out from the competition because it's the only suburban-style building with a downtown address. And, he says, because it's only a matter of time because tenants and office workers won't want to work anywhere that's not green.

Abberger will be one of those tenants. Trammell Crow and its parent company, CB Richard Ellis, will consolidate all of their local operations in the new building.

Abberger couldn't be prouder.

"I have three amazing daughters, and of all the things I've done over the years that have changed the skyline, this was the first time I saw them get excited about what their dad was doing," he said.

Damn you jonknee, you posted the article one minute before I did!

So this got approved? Damn, I wish it didn't. Look at the render at the link and look at that garage. That is a big waste of land. I wouldn't had mind this if it was built on top of the garage, even though I believe thsi whole project doesn;t belong in Channelside, but having that much of land just for what it looks like a 7 floor parking garage is just stupid. And another thing is retail. It might be an office building, but Channelside is an entertainment district and this doesn't even qualify close to that. Maybe move this more down West.

And youngkg posted it 2 minutes before that in the project's thread. :lol:

Please post all discusssions on the article and project there. :)

^^
Nice photo finish :lol:

Kimpton Hotels Coming ...

From a trusted friend (and hotel developer/investor), Kimpton Hotels are close to announcing their first Tampa-area hotel within the next month or so. By 2009, they hope to have two, possibly three hotels, under construction or completed in the area. It looks like the first one will be in Channelside (though they're still investigating properties downtown Tampa as well), the next in downtown St. Pete, and the third to be determined...I should know more in the next 2-3 weeks.

Hey Kentski, any updates on the Kimpton Hotels coming to Tampa?
Any news of this?

Checked there website and they do have Tampa as a future investment, nothing on St.Pete though. I just realized that the Epic Hotel for Miami is a Kimpton project, pretty sweet!

http://www.mlsfinder.com/fl_mfrmls/highrises/index.cfm?action=searchresults&searchkey=e5713dc2-cb94-ce3a-5aa2-ea271c0a8bcc&npp=10

are they kidding? half a million for a condo!?!?!

^your link is dead... try it again.

http://www.highrises.com/tampa/grand-central-at-kennedy/

http://www.mlsfinder.com/fl_mfrmls/highrises/index.cfm?action=searchresults&searchkey=e5d6418c-e9b9-a455-1071-d640d1ff2932&npp=10

try again... still, 500k is nuts!

http://www.highrises.com/tampa/grand-central-at-kennedy/

http://www.mlsfinder.com/fl_mfrmls/highrises/index.cfm?action=searchresults&searchkey=e5d6418c-e9b9-a455-1071-d640d1ff2932&npp=10

try again... still, 500k is nuts!

MLSFinder has poor usability and makes it difficult to link to search results, but I think you're trying to link to this page (http://www.mlsfinder.com/fl_mfrmls/highrises/index.cfm?action=newsearchsession&address=1208%20e%20kennedy). 500k is a lot, but it's definitely a high-end building.

thats the one.

who do they expect to be buying those? the avg tampa income is nowhere near enough to afford that!

thats the one.

who do they expect to be buying those? the avg tampa income is nowhere near enough to afford that!

Well it's also not an average Tampa building. As I said before, it's a high-end building being marketed to high-end buyers. There are lots of people living in the building at the moment (even some on this forum). And even then, the $500k units are the high-end of the building. There are plenty more available in the $200s.

^Right you are on all counts.

well, are there any plans for less grandiose buildings for the Avg Tampanian?

http://www.containercity.com/

maybe a container city! :banana2:

lol... The West End project has some lower priced stuff. $200s and 300s I think.

Plus, there are existing properties all around DT, even on Harbour Island.

:ohno:

even 200-300 is out of range for the avg tampa family...

^^
Yep. So much is still overpriced. Most middle class families can't afford even that kind of price range.

Renting an apartment is no better financialwise with landlords jacking rent up into the mid to high hundreds.

:ohno:

even 200-300 is out of range for the avg tampa family...
When you get below this range, you're talking about people not exactly making much money, even relative to this metro. And the land values downtown aren't going to support the kind of development that will yield such lower prices for buyers.

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ADPTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=40000US86599&-qr_name=ACS_2006_EST_G00_DP3&-context=adp&-ds_name=&-tree_id=306&-_lang=en&-redoLog=false&-format=

when you look at the numbers, it just makes no sense.

Tampa is not a well to do area.

the median household income is roughly 43k dollars. using the standard 2.5 times salary for a mortgage, the house should cost less than 110.

even if you use the mean, at 60k, the house should be no more than 150

to afford a place going for 250k, the income would need to be 100k! and only about 8.5% of the people in the area makes that kinda money...

Blueb73, welcome to real estate! you must be reading some old real estate book to come up with those calculations. all the rules have been rewritten. 500k for a condo is really not out of the ordinary, not even in tampa. there are plenty of people who can afford that. although many of these people are of advanced age and don't necessarily live in tampa (ie snowbirds). 200k is very affordable with a household income of 43k. now if you have a couple of kids, your paycheck will be stretched but that is why it's necessary to save when you're single without those obligations and don't live beyonds your means.

Blueb73, welcome to real estate! you must be reading some old real estate book to come up with those calculations. all the rules have been rewritten. 500k for a condo is really not out of the ordinary, not even in tampa. there are plenty of people who can afford that. although many of these people are of advanced age and don't necessarily live in tampa (ie snowbirds). 200k is very affordable with a household income of 43k. now if you have a couple of kids, your paycheck will be stretched but that is why it's necessary to save when you're single without those obligations and don't live beyonds your means.

and who does that anymore?!?!?

I always got the vibe that Tampa's Condo Market was aiming more of out of state buyers than local ones. You look at Trump Tampa (btw, any news of this) and ask yourself "Who would pay $1.2 mil for a unit?" and than you see people buying who come from NYC and Los Angeles and you see a trend.

St.Pete is different though. I believe they have more local and state-wide buyers than Tampa.

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ADPTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=40000US86599&-qr_name=ACS_2006_EST_G00_DP3&-context=adp&-ds_name=&-tree_id=306&-_lang=en&-redoLog=false&-format=

when you look at the numbers, it just makes no sense.

Tampa is not a well to do area.

the median household income is roughly 43k dollars. using the standard 2.5 times salary for a mortgage, the house should cost less than 110.

even if you use the mean, at 60k, the house should be no more than 150

to afford a place going for 250k, the income would need to be 100k! and only about 8.5% of the people in the area makes that kinda money...

Luxury high-rises in waterfront downtown areas are not "median". If you don't want to spend a lot you go out to the sub-urbs. That's how it works everywhere. Do the same math on any other city.

While I wouldn't pay 500k for a unit in Grand Central, some of the other projects warrant the price.

Speaking of Grand Central, I really was not impressed. Other than the kitchen, the rest of the unit looked apartment grade to me. And the hallways and other common area with the exception of the pool deck were horrible. The hallways reminded me of a bowling alley.

After looking at almost every building in Channelside my wife and I decided on a unit in The Place.

While I wouldn't pay 500k for a unit in Grand Central, some of the other projects warrant the price.

Speaking of Grand Central, I really was not impressed. Other than the kitchen, the rest of the unit looked apartment grade to me. And the hallways and other common area with the exception of the pool deck were horrible. The hallways reminded me of a bowling alley.

After looking at almost every building in Channelside my wife and I decided on a unit in The Place.

I did think the public areas of GC were odd as well. The hallways are hellishly long and straight. Almost like you're in the hallway scene of the Matrix--just a long string of doors. And the lobby is really lame for such a large building.

I haven't been over to The Place yet, but I generally dig Euro/modern style so I assume it's up my alley.

^Place is VERY nice. It had great common places and hallways.

Luxury high-rises in waterfront downtown areas are not "median". If you don't want to spend a lot you go out to the sub-urbs. That's how it works everywhere. Do the same math on any other city.

then Tampa will never truly become an urban city. You need to build things people can afford. Why would anyone on a budget spend 2-3-4 times for a place to live when they can get so much more for so much less in the suburbs?

If this is the best Tampa can do, it will never urbanize.

Yeah, from what I've seen of the building interiors, The Place clearly has the superior design in terms of livability between those two. However, I think GC's pool deck and views are better than The Place's. The units themselves really comes down to personal preference for the combination of floorplans and amenities imo.

Wow, Grand Central had ceiling tiles in the hallways! Yeah, the common areas there weren't great, but I'd live there...I thought the units were just fine.

Kimpton Hotels Coming ...

From a trusted friend (and hotel developer/investor), Kimpton Hotels are close to announcing their first Tampa-area hotel within the next month or so. By 2009, they hope to have two, possibly three hotels, under construction or completed in the area. It looks like the first one will be in Channelside (though they're still investigating properties downtown Tampa as well), the next in downtown St. Pete, and the third to be determined...I should know more in the next 2-3 weeks.

Hey Kentski, any updates on the Kimpton Hotels coming to Tampa?
Got a email from May Tien


Hello Mike,

We are looking at the Tampa market currently, and do not have many details yet to share with the public. We appreciate your interest as well as enthusiasm for our development and please keep checking the Kimpton website for the most current details.

Regards,

May


So, it's just saying what everyone else is saying.

Luxury high-rises in waterfront downtown areas are not "median". If you don't want to spend a lot you go out to the sub-urbs. That's how it works everywhere. Do the same math on any other city.

Um, BS?

Wow, Grand Central had ceiling tiles in the hallways! Yeah, the common areas there weren't great, but I'd live there...I thought the units were just fine.

Here is my take on Channelside.
I think it looks great and I think it will be successful, but it will take much longer then it should. The mistakes are very obvious to me and they are paying for them now cause the units are not really selling. WHY? They are too small and too expenisive period. They want 250-350 a sq foot and most of the units space is not designed well, they may look good on paper or even cool in person, but living in it over time you will begin to see the mess up. The developers tried to make too much money from the go and the built at a perfect time and investors were buying them up thinking they were going to make some serious cash. I am not sure what can be done, but MOST of the units are not going to accomidate families or single couples cause it's simpliy to small and too much. I just don't see single professionals throwing down 300-400 K for a 600-1000 units....too small of a market, so these units will sit. What would have been a better idea was to make a 1/3 of the units between 700-1000 1/1 (199-299K). 1/3 between 1300-1800 2/2 (300-450K) and 1/3 between 2000-3000 for around 450-600K

Not sure how this can be done. I went to skypoint and liked it, but the space is poorly designed and cost too much for what they want.....plus it like 44 cent a square foot for the monthly maintenace fee.......yea I'll be right on that. To me this is the problem and its a big one.

Sorry to bug you guys again. Anyone know what the 211 Meridian is? On the TampaGov Developmental Map, it has it on there and I never heard of it before. And also, this looks pretty recently updated, anyone know why the Four Seasons Project is still up than?

http://www.tampagov.net/dept_economic_and_urban_development/programs_and_services/Community_redevelopment_areas/Downtown/Residential_development_Map.asp

Sorry to bug you guys again. Anyone know what the 211 Meridian is? On the TampaGov Developmental Map, it has it on there and I never geard of it before.
http://www.tampagov.net/dept_economic_and_urban_development/programs_and_services/Community_redevelopment_areas/Downtown/Residential_development_Map.asp

Place at Channelside Phase 3

Place at Channelside Phase 3
Really? Why so far from the other 2?

Really? Why so far from the other 2?

Well, it may not really be a Phase 3, but it really has no official name and it is by the same developer as Place so that name has kinda stuck on these boards, until it gets a real name.

Heres an article in the Tribune about all of the retail coming up in downtown and Channelside...


http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/dec/19/bz-empty-storefronts-filled-with-hope-and-promise/

Heres an article in the Tribune about all of the retail coming up in downtown and Channelside...


http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/dec/19/bz-empty-storefronts-filled-with-hope-and-promise/
Why the hell do they have to compare us to other cities in the first place? One thing, Tampa isn't even close to the ranks of Chi-Town, NYC, or Miami, and another thing, Just talk about the retail, don't go into "oh,Tampa won't have the charactistics of NYC retail corridors.

I hope the retail spaces sell pretty soon. If they fill up the retail with the right stuff, they will be able to cut traffic in the area. Because if they just feel it up with stupid shops and not grocery store/s and all that, the residents at T@C, Grand, and the other dvelopments will be force to drive to do so.

^ I don't know why but I thought when those shops in Channelside open up, Tampa would be EXACTLY like NYC or Chicago... I'm glad they set me straight on that.

^ I don't know why but I thought when those shops in Channelside open up, Tampa would be EXACTLY like NYC or Chicago... I'm glad they set me straight on that.
lol, I know!

Seriously, what is the point of comparing Tampa to another or other cities? We know the city will never be like NYC and Chicago and personally, I would never want Tampa to be like them. Tampa should develop it's own character and shouldn't focus to reach for something that isn't POSSIBLE!

^ I don't know why but I thought when those shops in Channelside open up, Tampa would be EXACTLY like NYC or Chicago... I'm glad they set me straight on that.
True that bro... The other day I took the Red Line downtown from my place, and when I came out of the subway tunnel, I thought I was in Chicago for a minute there...

...oh wait...


lololol:nuts:

There was equipment at the Mercury Advisors third or second (depending who you ask) site today. It appeared to be setting up to drill test pilings.

The site for the Martin?

The site for the Martin?
I believe they are actually working on the Del Villar

Checking back on Channel District
By AMY SCHERZER, scherzer@sptimes.com
Published January 11, 2008

In 1993, Kim and Richard Markham's move into a 20,000-square-foot warehouse on N 11th Street kickstarted the Channel District renaissance. Richard, a family physician, and Kim, an accountant, opened a medical clinic and rallied the fledgling neighborhood - maybe 20 residents at the time, counting cats and dogs - to define itself.

Then in January 2005, the Markhams moved onto 6 acres in Molokai, Hawaii, a rural island of 7,000 people with no traffic lights, no daily newspaper and one movie theater. Now, the couple grow organic vegetables and fruits. Kim is a competitive outrigger paddler; Richard is an award-winning Auwana hula dancer.

Last week, they visited the Channel District for the first time in three years. I had a few questions for them, and they shared some insightful thoughts about this changing community.



Your first reaction?

Kim: Amazed, and alternatively elated and disappointed. We drove around in circles going, "Wow, look at that, wow." We remembered when our first house used to be next to a crack house, and now it's a beautiful law firm. It felt like a place you've never seen before but you've known you've been there.

Richard: Some buildings are better than the drawings, like the Ventana (condominium). Some buildings didn't have the visual impact I thought they would. I hope the architects continue to push the limits to create interesting buildings.

Your biggest disappointment?

Kim: The city hasn't addressed the streetscape for the benefit of the residents living there. The developers have made really nice and expensive improvements, but they can't do it alone.

Richard: It's almost inexcusable to plan for three years. Paved streets, wide sidewalks, landscaping, parking ... I thought that would be done by now. It's not even begun.



Despite your efforts to enforce the district's 60-foot height limit, the City Council waived the restriction to allow high-rise condos. What went through your mind when you saw the towers?

Kim: To me, it already looks very similar to neighborhoods in Miami and even South Hyde Park. We spent thousands of hours defining the district's unique sense of place. Now the distinction is blurred.

We did hope at one time the district architecture would hark back to the low-rise, big-box warehouse style, in sharp contrast to a glamorous urban core where 30-story towers belong.

In Molokai, no building can be higher than a palm tree, so no one's view of the ocean is ever blocked.

Richard: I always thought the most interesting part of the Channel District were the views of the channels, the ships and the industry across the water, which gives a glimpse of Tampa's history and ongoing reality of this city. So we always argued for a deep setback on the waterfront. All of the waterfront should stay in the public domain.



You helped lobby the City Council and the County Commission to create tax increment financing (TIF) here. Has that achieved what you hoped?

Kim: TIF money is a blank check for City Council to spend a pool of tax money for whatever they want. With 10,000 to 30,000 projected residents living in a hurricane zone, the Channel District Council wanted a protected infrastructure, buried utilities and we wanted 10 percent to be directed to the arts, because that's what was so special about the district. I don't know if that's been done.

Richard: We had a difficult time getting back to business after the four hurricanes in 2004 because of flooding and especially the downed power lines. TIF should address those infrastructure issues first, but I am also in favor of some types of buy-down or subsidies for artists and arts groups so they can co-exist in the urban core with residential and commercial.



So what do you find pleasing in the district?

Kim: I love the vibrant colors, blue, green, purple. I'm thrilled about the Stageworks space - they used to have their rehearsals in my house. Our primary goal was not to drive out the artists, because that's what made the district fun. A few who own their buildings are still there, but most of the renters are gone.

It's still the best place to live for three reasons: location, location, location. It's still the heart of the whole urban experience. In a way, I'm sorry I can't be in two places at the same time.



You once wrote in your Channel District newsletter many things you would accomplish as Mayor for a Day. What suggestions do you have now?

Kim: I wish the empty retail spaces could be occupied by galleries, even temporarily, while we get through the recession.

Richard: The city should use some TIF or public money to purchase some pocket parks and install decent lighting so people can safely enjoy the streets after dark. And some land needs to be reserved for public parking.



What do you miss about Tampa?

Richard: I miss my patients, and I miss walking to hockey games. Nobody in Molokai cares about my Lightning. I still keep my skates and stick handy. We developed a surge of enthusiasm for the district, rode a great wave of energy through City Council and developed great friendships.

Kim: I miss the urban fabric, the wine-and-cheese art openings. We have the hula scene, but I miss peering into someone else's mind. I miss decent restaurants - it's a 50-mile flight to Honolulu or an hour-and-half ferry to Maui. I miss all our friends and invite everybody to visit us in Molokai.

[Last modified January 10, 2008, 07:25:20]

http://www.sptimes.com/2008/01/11/Citytimes/Checking_back_on_Chan.shtml

THat is a rambling mess of an interview - just like their planning ideas. Nothing above a palm tree, I miss the urban fabric, views (if you can't see over the trees?)

Anyway, on a more interesting note, I was talking with a landowner in Channelside who was saying the Sembler hotel (near the Towers) was supposed to start vry soon - he was told. Can't vouch for the accuracy, but the land is being messed with, so maybe there is something to it.

I think it's a great article (sic). It shows well the alarming disconnect between what people wish would happen, and the reality of city building...

The Markhams clearly didn't understand what a vibrant urban core looks like or is comprised of, and clearly had no desire to live in one either. They wanted to live in the fantasyland that could only possibly exist in their minds. How on Earth they were entrusted to help shape what Downtown Tampa's newest urban neighborhood looks like boggles my mind.

As I always say, when you put people in charge of things that they aren't qualified to do, you get a big mess. As soon as the city's leaders stop letting doctors and accountants do the urban planning, then our neighborhoods will stop sucking so much.

I just can't help but point out that Saul-Sena is an urban planner - like many of the officials who apporve so much crap.

^And just think, all you have to do to join them is advocate for the downtown of a major city to be redeveloped into a sprawling, low density village of middle-aged yuppies who fancy themselves hippies, and you too can be an 'urban pioneer'!

How about no...
:P I should be the Urban Planner.
Doesn't anyone take Tampa seriously as a city?
I know this is Florida.. but c'mon.

Somewhat off topic, but I just spent the last few days downtown for a state-wide music convention and was very impressed by the level of activity at all hours of the day and night. Channelside was packed everytime I got to go out in that direction, there appeared to always be something going on at the sports forum, the convention center was of course packed for the convention, the performing arts center was bustling, there were people walking on the streets, there was traffic well into the night hours, there were people in and out of the condo buildings... I was just very impressed by the magnitude of "urbanity" which I have never felt in the past. While Tampa is no New York, it is so clearly well on its way to having a livable and vibrant urban core.

Quite alot of construction going on out in channelside too... The Tampa Bay History Center looked to be mostly done with the first floor and starting the second. Seaport (as hideous and cheap-looking as it is) is obviously close to completion. The Slade was up to the 3rd floor on the northern portion if i remember correctly? Site work on a few other lots, and a few newly constructed low rises had sprouted up that I hadn't remembered from before... (a long 2 story building across meridian from seaport and future martin?)

Go Tampa!!!

I think that Tampa will get its stuff in gear, but I think that if we are going to make a good impression on the visiting populous then Tampa as a whole needs to realize what is around us (water, sand, warm weather year round), and utilize everything that we have. Until we are able to get all of our ducks in line people, and companies will continue to go elsewhere to call home, and Tampa will be stuck in the same place that we are now.

There was equipment at the Mercury Advisors third or second (depending who you ask) site today. It appeared to be setting up to drill test pilings.

Today "stuff" was in the ground. Big metal things have been submerged. What does this mean? :nuts:

Sort of u/c?

It can't be... somebody would have reported that...

I'll do some research into it...


what shape were the metal things? Are there some remaining above ground to see? What vehicular equipment is on site? Cranes? Trackhoe? Drilling rig? Dozer? I haven't been over that way in a couple weeks, even though I've been DT, including today.

It can't be... somebody would have reported that...

I'll do some research into it...

my feelings exactly, but one of those things - the sort of metal wall things they use when they build bridges/hiways - that sort of a thing - my vocab is pretty fucking weak tonight for whatever reason - is in the ground with a drill/crane sitting next to it. and the site is all cleaned up and in order for construction. so....?

it would surprise me to see it under construction. guess it's just a test?

ok, got my act in gear - it looked like a double t- shaped retaining wall that you'd see along the 275 expansion. it may not BE that, but that's what it looked like.

and the equipment was either a crane or a drilling rig - didn't look close enough at that - the activity on the ground caught my eye as i idled by.

Sounds like they're pulling up some dirt then... I assume these sheet piles were near a property boundary? Expect to see a pump and well points soon if they are digging.





oh, and this is sheet piling... Used to hold back soil when going below grade, or when holding back earthworks as the retaining wall, or prior to final installation of the retaining wall.
http://www.cmisheetpiling.com/img/bigwall.jpg


This is a double tee... Very, very commonly used as decking in parking structures these days.
http://www.jwpeters.com/Images/Double-tee.jpg

ok, then it's sheet piling, as you've probably assumed.

thanks for clarifying - definitely not my area of expertise. i appreciate it.

In the past week I've been asked to participate in two surveys regarding Channelside and Downtown. Has anyone else had the pleasure?

The Channelside Arts survey ( from the city of Tampa) was forwarded to me from the admin at the property management office @ Grand Central. In essense it asked if you were an arts organization ( for or non-profit ) would you locate in Channelside. And if so, what services/amenities would make it more attractive. The only part that pertained to me, being a Channelside resident, was what kind of art and other activities would I like to see, what I wouldn't want to see ( mimes ), what I envisoned the neighborhood becoming, and how much I'm spending on the arts in Channelside vs. Hillsborough county.

The second survey came thru the Tampa Downtown Partnership - http://www.tampasdowntown.com/newsletter.aspx?newid=67.
It's geared to folks working in Downtown, what they like, hate, etc. They ask a great deal about what could be done to keep folks DT after work and bring them in back on weekends.

IMO it's encouraging to see the city solicting opinions about activities for DT. Whether or not they can be implemented is another question.

Condos In Chapter 11

By SHANNON BEHNKEN, The Tampa Tribune

Published: January 26, 2008

TAMPA - The developers of the Towers of Channelside, a pair of 29-story luxury condominiums, filed for bankruptcy court protection Friday, stating that Wachovia Corp. cut off its credit.

The developer has sold just 89 of the 257 units, according to documents filed in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Tampa on Friday. Many of the contracts on units that have not closed fell through because buyers backed out, documents said.

Two partners in the development did not return calls seeking comment.

The company, Towers of Channelside LLC, based in Plant City, listed debt between $50 million and $100 million and assets of between $100 million and $500 million, in Chapter 11 documents.

"Wachovia has refused to allow the debtor to draw the remaining amounts available under the Wachovia loan," the company said in court papers. Wachovia is owed about $58 million, according to court documents.

The 20 largest unsecured creditors are owed $11.6 million. Of those, the three biggest are CT Towers LLC, owed $6.2 million; Batson-Cook Co., owed $3 million; and Kevin Brodsky, owed $1.2 million.

If all buyers with contracts had closed, all creditors would have been paid, the developer said in its filing.

Tampa Realtor Toni Everett said she wasn't surprised by the news and had heard that some buyers weren't able to close.

Everett said she is representing some clients who bought units and are now trying to sell. She said she had been inside of one of the towers Friday morning and that most of the units seemed complete. She said she thought the developers were just putting finishing touches on some units, such as paint.

At the peak of the housing boom, more than two dozen condominiums were planned for in and around downtown Tampa. A handful of the condos have opened and some other developers have either stalled or canceled projects.

Everett said she had been concerned about the flood of condo developments in the Channel District and wondered whether there would be enough buyers to fill the units. Condos that she's selling in other areas of downtown are doing better, she said.

"I've been through other downturns," she said. "This is my fourth downturn. I saw what was going to happen down there."

Information from Bloomberg News was used in this report. Reporter Shannon Behnken can be reached at sbehnken@tampatrib.com or (813) 259-7804.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/jan/26/bz-condos-in-chapter-11/?news-money

^At least the building looks complete. If that had happened midway through construction it would have been a real eyesore.

I sense some tasty discounts coming to a condo near us!

Yep, someone's going to get a deal. Or I guess (257-89) people :).

^ Absolutely... I feel sorry for the people that already bought. Their condos just lost approx. 30-40% of their original value... To get the velocity of disposition the bank will desire, they will dump those units (especially since most banks are indicating they want to use the first qtr of this year to do all of their remaining writedowns).

Not only that, I bet the HOA will be insolvent as well, forcing it to issue special assesments to the unit owners to cover the shortfalls while the banks bicker and try to dispose of the units. From experience, banks rarely pay the HOA fees for units they own. The HOA can place a lien on the units, but there's going to be a long list of creditors with better standing to recover any proceeds first.

It's ashame too. Towers of Channelside is one of the nicer buildings in Tampa (in my opinion). The balconies are to die for and most of the units were finished nicely.

If the banks involved in this project decide to liquidate, the situation will make things much worse for other projects that have inventory in Channelside/Downtown...

^ Absolutely... I feel sorry for the people that already bought. Their condos just lost approx. 30-40% of their original value... To get the velocity of disposition the bank will desire, they will dump those units (especially since most banks are indicating they want to use the first qtr of this year to do all of their remaining writedowns).

Not only that, I bet the HOA will be insolvent as well, forcing it to issue special assesments to the unit owners to cover the shortfalls while the banks bicker and try to dispose of the units. From experience, banks rarely pay the HOA fees for units they own. The HOA can place a lien on the units, but there's going to be a long list of creditors with better standing to recover any proceeds first.

It's ashame too. Towers of Channelside is one of the nicer buildings in Tampa (in my opinion). The balconies are to die for and most of the units were finished nicely.

If the banks involved in this project decide to liquidate, the situation will make things much worse for other projects that have inventory in Channelside/Downtown...

Very possible, when the notes are sold on the secondary financial markets for fifty cents on the dollar.

^ Absolutely... I feel sorry for the people that already bought. Their condos just lost approx. 30-40% of their original value... To get the velocity of disposition the bank will desire, they will dump those units (especially since most banks are indicating they want to use the first qtr of this year to do all of their remaining writedowns).

Not only that, I bet the HOA will be insolvent as well, forcing it to issue special assesments to the unit owners to cover the shortfalls while the banks bicker and try to dispose of the units. From experience, banks rarely pay the HOA fees for units they own. The HOA can place a lien on the units, but there's going to be a long list of creditors with better standing to recover any proceeds first.

It's ashame too. Towers of Channelside is one of the nicer buildings in Tampa (in my opinion). The balconies are to die for and most of the units were finished nicely.

If the banks involved in this project decide to liquidate, the situation will make things much worse for other projects that have inventory in Channelside/Downtown...


Let me get this straight...the developers of these basically completed towers will be forced to find a buyer for all the unsold units as a whole or lower the prices and continue trying to sell them individually? How much time do they have before the bank "repos" the entire project? or is this even possible?

I had heard there was going to be a grand opening this week...it's probably canceled!

Let me get this straight...the developers of these basically completed towers will be forced to find a buyer for all the unsold units as a whole or lower the prices and continue trying to sell them individually? How much time do they have before the bank "repos" the entire project? or is this even possible?

I had heard there was going to be a grand opening this week...it's probably canceled!

Well, it 's probably a mix of parties who will determine the outcome (the court, the banks, and the developer). If the developer is in default with their financing agreements (and the condos themselves are considered the security in those agreements), I believe the bank can proceed with foreclosures while hammering out the rest in bankruptcy court. Either way, both the court and the bank would likely take the same course of action - liquidate.

The banks are just dumping stuff right now, at values that make no sense. For example, there's a gorgeous waterfront estate home in MiraBay right now that originally sold for $1.45m. The bank that held the mortgage foreclosed on it and is now dumping it for a little under $750k (even though Southshore is a tough sale right now, the bank clearly has it priced to sell faster than a typical 90 day listing timeframe).

From talking to some senior bank officials recently, they've all indicated that they want (and need) to make a clean cut with their writedowns in the 1st Qtr of this year. They want to take the majority of their losses all at once and then be able to return to income and growth for Wall Street. Makes perfect sense - it's like a surgeon removing cancer, get it all at once and sew the patient back up.

On the flipside, I read a recent article about the CEO of The Related Group starting a billion-dollar vulture fund (buying up condos and other properties from distressed developers in Miami and beyond). This scenario would be the best one for TOC, in my opinion. They'd hold onto the condos, rent them out, and then sell when the market comes back. The existing owners won't be left totally unharmed, but they'd be a lot better off than the alternate scenario.

Let's just hope the other downtown/channelside developers don't suffer the same problems as the TOC group has...

Makes perfect sense - it's like a surgeon removing cancer, get it all at once and sew the patient back up.

I think that this is the best analogy I have heard in reguards to the housing market and the market in general.

^^Trust me, mobster, we ain't seen nothing yet, unfortunately! :( Is there a doctor in the house???

As I see it, and no doubt most of you see it as well, America finds itself in critical condition, financially.

Humm, just for shits-and-giggles, let's check out the ugly facts... a national debt just over 9.2 trillion dollars; an accumulated debt, including individual, business and govt. just shy of 50 trillion (we love our credit cards, no doubt); a trade deficit running in the multiple trillions; and an annual interest payment (fiscal year 2007 alone) just shy of $420 billion - our third largest expenditure among the twelve appropriations, b.t.w. and we don't even get a reach around! Know what I'm sayin'?

And never mind that we've borrowed over 800 billion from China (that's why we're forced to kiss their ass); 600 billion from Japan (truly, our closest ally) who have literally devalued their currency just to boost the "less-mighty" dollar; and close to a trillion from 15 other nations around the globe... who knew???

Trickle down economics, my ass! Let's call it what it really is: piss on your head economics! Jesus Christ! Will we ever learn??? Don't ever hand them your checkbook!!! Bunch of frickin' clueless wonders in charge, I tell ya! Pass me the national credit card please! Credit limit breached? No problem. We'll just raise the debt ceiling every year because we can. Oh - and we'll do it late at night so as not to generate headlines and all...

An interest rate reduction (last Tuesday) of .75 basis points by the Federal Reserve (prior to the FOMC meeting, b.t.w.) speaks volumes to the avg. investor! Hello? It's reactionary; a.k.a. panic. And as we celebrated MLK Day with our financial markets closed, the Hang Seng slid into free-fall losing nearly 2,000 points; the DAX fell nearly .04%; the FTSE falling just shy of 3.5%; and the ASX closely mirroring the DAX losing nearly .04% in a single trading session. OUCH! That's why the Reserve Chairman cut the rates last Tuesday - pure and simple. Is it any wonder?!?!

No doubt, a betting man would certainly lay odds that the Reserve will, once again, lower the interest rate by at least .25 at the next FOMC meeting just to keep the markets' happy. How sad it is, I'd say... a dollar in free-fall and yet we're forced to cut interest rates just to avoid falling into recession. So... what's wrong with this picture? Anybody remember the demise of the Russian ruple? Let us pray. ;) But I digress...

Ask yourself this: when was the last time that Congress and the Admistration joined forces and actually came to an agreement (150 billion quick fix) so quickly? In a week's time, no less. It's a miracle! :)

More importantly, when has this country ever had to pump over 200 billion in liquidity (in a few short months) just to keep our financial markets from sinking? Oh, I know... that would be "never"! Hell, even the S&L bailout crisis required a smaller lifeboat...

But not to worry... the glass is half full. :lol: No doubt, we'll eventually get it together and ultimately overcome this fiscal crisis - common sense and fiscal disipline will ultimately prevail because it must - and I suspect that we'll be all-the-wiser in the long rung run... let us collectively hope so! ;)

As for me, personally, I'm scoring the largest profits to date trading this market. The irony is that it's like shooting fish in a barrel. I guess I'm just lucky. Damn! I'm long-winded! :)

So as to not hijack this thread, C.B. Ellis has updated Tampa's development status, wherein they suggest that "The Place, Phase II" is currently "under construction." Is this for real? Anybody know? :dunno:

^ Well no need to worry, they are sending out $600 and $1200 checks soon to fix everything! (Yeah right!) The sad part is, both parties have fallen into the spend mode. Republicans aren't any better than Democrats when it comes to spending and taxing.

This market volatility has really made me a ton of money the past few weeks. Its not hard to make good money when a stock swings down 4% then finishs up 4% for the day...that's an 8% profit in one day if you do it right! :)

The thread already has a topic folks.


btw RM, if you have so much money, loan me some. ;)

^ I wish I did have a lot! :)

Back to topic: These condos are going to sell for pretty cheap I bet.

C.B. Ellis has updated Tampa's development status, wherein they suggest that "The Place, Phase II" is currently "under construction." Is this for real? Anybody know?

I live right around the corner from the lot where the Place, Phase II was / is to be built, and I can assure you that there is no activity whatsoever on that lot.

There are a lot of emply units at the Place, Phase I as well as the Towers of Channelside. On a more positive note, it does look like Grand Central is filling up nicely (at least judging by the balcony furniture and lights at night).

C.B. Ellis has updated Tampa's development status, wherein they suggest that "The Place, Phase II" is currently "under construction." Is this for real? Anybody know?

I live right around the corner from the lot where the Place, Phase II was / is to be built, and I can assure you that there is no activity whatsoever on that lot.

There are a lot of emply units at the Place, Phase I as well as the Towers of Channelside. On a more positive note, it does look like Grand Central is filling up nicely (at least judging by the balcony furniture and lights at night).

I just moved into a unit in The Place on the 15th. It truly is a fantastic building. My wife spoke to the community manager this morning and was told that 70 units have closed so far (out of 244 I think). Most of those 70 are owner occupied according to her.

With that low occupancy and the current market I wouldn't hold my breath on Phase II starting anytime soon.

^ I wish I did have a lot! :)

Back to topic: These condos are going to sell for pretty cheap I bet.

Yes, we're first waiting to see where the Miami condo market goes.

Condo tower developer seeks bankruptcy protection
Tampa Bay Business Journal - by Michael Hinman

The developer of the Towers of Channelside is asking a bankruptcy judge to allow it to sell eight units right away while it seeks Chapter 11 protection.

The Towers of Channelside LLC filed for protection Jan. 25 with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court's Middle District of Florida after Wachovia Bank threatened to declare a default on its $105.8 million loan to build the twin 29-story, 257-unit condominium towers.

In a case management summary filed Wednesday, Towers of Channelside said that "virtually all" of its units in the project were pre-sold prior to the towers' groundbreaking on Channelside Drive across the street from Channelside Bay Plaza. However, once the buildings were completed last October, sales were closed on only 89 of the units, leaving about $6.9 million in nonrefundable deposits.

All but $2 million of those deposits are not in dispute through legal channels, and Towers executives said Wachovia refused to allow them to use $4.9 million of the unused deposits toward the amount still owed.

Towers of Channelside have paid down $50 million of the overall loan, with another $58 million still due, court documents said. At the same time, Wachovia still has control of all the property's retail space as well as 168 residential units as collateral.

Developers also still owe $19.3 million to Merrill Lynch Capital, which provided a mezzanine loan in June 2005. The loan originally was for $14.8 million, but increased to $16.8 million a year later. Towers also received a pre-construction loan of $4.5 million from CT Towers LLC, and will be expected to pay $120,000 in real estate taxes in March.

Last year, Towers of Channelside earned more than $47.4 million in gross revenue from the sales of units, and had a net income of $5.9 million mostly from deposits and interest in escrow accounts, according to the court document. However, 98 percent of that net income was paid to Wachovia, developers said.

The Towers of Channelside Development team included Richard Sacchi, Bradley Hite and Michael McGuinness. Each received compensation of more than $210,000 between July 2005 and June 2007 for their services, the court filing said. The total value of the buildings, not including the undisputed deposits, is $102.1 million.

Sales on many of the units haven't closed because those who bought before the towers were built now say they no longer could afford the units, developers said in their bankruptcy filing. McGuinness told the Tampa Bay Business Journal in January 2007, just weeks before the topping ceremony of the first tower, that his development team worked hard to weed out as many speculators as possible.

"We have a lot of buyers who drop by the project two or three times a day to see the progress of their units," McGuinness said at the time. "Some have even told me they go up on the parking garage (next to the project site) to watch the construction."

Last August, the Towers sold four of its five retail units including 5,000 square feet for a restaurant and lounge, 2,500 square feet for a pizza shop, and 1,300 square feet for a liquor package store. State records showed Tower Holdings LLC buying a unit for $1.1 million, CS Commercial LLC purchasing a unit for $880,000 and Cumberland LLC buying a unit for $619,000.

"We think all these buyers add to the overall quality of our development," McGuinness said at the time. "We're practically the only developer closing on retail, and we're already 4-for-4."

Towers developers have already begun marketing the remaining residential units.

http://tampabay.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2008/01/28/daily46.html?jst=b_ln_hl

How much are 2 bedroom 2 bath at GC@Kennedy

Virtually all units were pre-sold, but only about a 1/3 have closed. If they can't get the units closed at pre-construction prices, the Developer, or the bank once they get it, are going to have to substantially reduce the asking prices to sell in this market. Holding as long term rentals just extends the bleeding for years, as rents will not cover the holding costs, and reduces the units' value, as they are no longer new, but have been used or abused by many renters.

By the way, do any downtown, or channelside condos offer cabana service so downtown workers can enjoy a lunch time or afterwork swim? or is it just a matter of going as a guest of a resident?

^I got the impression that Towers at Channelside was going to have that sort of thing... But I don't know if it happened, or still is, or ever was.

This week's "In Town Tampa" newsletter from the Tampa Downtown Partnership actually had an interesting article...

http://www.tampasdowntown.com/newsletter.aspx?newid=69
http://www.211meridian.com/211Meridian/
The Innovation Hangar: Hatching A Downtown Creative Incubator

By Gary Shepherd

A creative industries incubator on downtown Tampa’s eastern side is the new business address for an eclectic mix of photographers, webmasters, writers, promoters, musicians, audio engineers, event organizers, and other creatives.

The 11,000-square-foot “Innovation Hangar” at 211 N. Meridian Ave. also is a now-and-then site for film, video and photo shoots, pilot club meetings, recording sessions at in-house Radiograph Studios – and, of course, parties.

Brandon-based PR man Steve Holub of Xposure Group uses his new space two or three days a week. “It’s very convenient for me, on the edge of downtown. I can zip over from Brandon and have another office at my fingertips,” Holub says. He timeshares a desk and uses available gear as needed. “I love the location, the facilities, and the people,” says Holub. “I can meet more regularly with a lot of other interesting, talented people to network, collaborate, and try to build each other’s businesses.”

“We’re already pitching a couple new business accounts together, under the Hangar umbrella, and having fun doing it.” Holub found the Hangar through Rodney Biddle, a web designer and programmer. Biddle is a Hangar tenant, and a colleague and pal of Innovation Hangar’s creator, Darrin Guilbeau. Guilbeau, 41, is a web designer, consultant, and entrepreneur with a Science, Technology and Innovation Management master’s from The University of Tampa.
“Working with those types of people is different, because they have different motivations,” says Guilbeau, an Air Force veteran, pilot, and musician. “Inspiration is crucial for creative people. So one thing we’re trying to do is provide an environment that helps promote creativity.”

Indeed, the motto of Guilbeau’s web company, Silicon Advantage, is “where the techies, artists, and suits collide” – a slogan that nicely foreshadowed the hatching of the creative downtown incubator. The space was once a Caterpillar heavy equipment service facility, and later became the funky residence of Channelside District pioneers Richard and Kim Markham. The Markhams, for instance, turned a former oil-change pit into a small indoor swimming pool.

As 211meridian.com says, the Markhams “filled the place with their art collection and turned it into a popular venue for art shows, fundraising events and parties, which helped sparkle the reputation of Channelside as an artsy area of Tampa.”

Andrei and Elena Leonov bought the 17,000-square-foot parcel and the building in 2004. They originally planned an indoor golf academy, but scrapped that idea. A deal to sell the property is on hold, at least through 2008, says Andrei Leonov, so the incubator concept is secure there for now.

Guilbeau approached Andrei Leonov last September about creating an incubator, and Leonov agreed. “I wish we had done this a year ago,” says Leonov, who had previously leased the big open downstairs space for photo shoots.
Besides filming, the open (and un-air conditioned) 7,000-square-foot bottom floor is good for various large-scale events (at least at night – construction of The Slade condo building next door is noisy in the daytime). “We’re trying to hold events every few weeks,” says Guilbeau, who resides in a nearby downtown loft.

Looking up inside the building, ground-floor visitors can see a balcony ringing the interior of the loft space. Upstairs, 4,000 square feet of loft area is split among seven private offices/workspaces. Also upstairs is an airy communal room that’s a mix of living room, kitchen, and workspace. That “west wing” space features the timeshare desks, plus comfy couches and a great westward view of downtown’s urban core.

Guilbeau leases from Leonov and sublets Hangar space. One second-floor room is used by several photographers, another room is a recording studio, and other folks have taken other spaces.

Among additional plans: A digital Kwuick Magazine, which would deliver articles via the Apple iPhone. The prototype website, designed by Rodney Biddle, is at www.kwuick.com.

For now, the nascent Innovation Hangar is percolating along nicely. “I love having a presence in the Channelside area,” says photographer Sean Deren (seanderen.com). “It’s a cool little area to be in.” “There seems to be a lot of interest in it. It seems to be a pretty cool idea,” agrees Leonov. “I’m not making any money on this, but I hold hope for the incubator concept.”

Looks like Seaboard Square will start in March.

The Tampa Tribune

Published: February 6, 2008

Updated: 02/04/2008 09:34 pm

CHANNEL DISTRICT - Elliot Greenbaum and Liliana Villaverde of Davis Islands opened Galeria Leo Artzi in October with hopes of selling only the works of local artists.

For Greenbaum, it was a bittersweet homecoming. In 2005, he sold his Seaboard Cold Storage property, located in the Channel District for more than 40 years.

Renting space from a developer for the gallery brings him back to a neighborhood he knows well. But Galeria Leo's stay at 209 S. 12th St. will be short-lived. The property is part of almost 6 acres earmarked by St. Petersburg developer Sembler Investments to become Seaboard Square, a hotel and residential project set to begin in March.

Villaverde, an account executive for Centro Mi Diario, a Spanish publication of Media General, owner of The Tampa Tribune, said the gallery's works include sculptures by Channel District dance instructor Louisa Menchkoff and surrealist Darwin Leon.

"The truth is these are great works of art," Greenbaum said.

He's upset about the theft of two of Leon's paintings in a recent break-in.

"The artist was livid," Greenbaum said. "These each represented six months of work."

The urban setting has other challenges for a fledging gallery. The sluggish housing market is curtailing the expected influx of residents to the Channel District. But Greenbaum is optimistic. He plans to relocate to a nearby condominium complex, such as Grand Central at Kennedy, where ground-floor retail space is plentiful.

"We're committed to making this work," said Greenbaum, who paints and writes poetry under the pseudonym Leo Artzi and remains president of Seaboard Cold Storage at its new location, 5601 N. Anderson Road.

Galeria Leo Artzi is at 209 S. 12th St. For information, call (813) 220-4078 or go to www.leoartzi.com.

Janis D. Froelich

^That would be phase 1. The 16 story hotel portion of the project. I've heard it would be a Hotel Indigo Brand. Beyond that I really have nothing else on Seaboard.

Also, Red Brick Pizza is now open in the Towers of Channelside. Appeared to be a nice sized crowd inside.

^I took my daughter there friday night. Not bad.

^^Trust me, mobster, we ain't seen nothing yet, unfortunately! :( Is there a doctor in the house???

As I see it, and no doubt most of you see it as well, America finds itself in critical condition, financially.

Humm, just for shits-and-giggles, let's check out the ugly facts... a national debt just over 9.2 trillion dollars; an accumulated debt, including individual, business and govt. just shy of 50 trillion (we love our credit cards, no doubt); a trade deficit running in the multiple trillions; and an annual interest payment (fiscal year 2007 alone) just shy of $420 billion - our third largest expenditure among the twelve appropriations, b.t.w. and we don't even get a reach around! Know what I'm sayin'?

And never mind that we've borrowed over 800 billion from China (that's why we're forced to kiss their ass); 600 billion from Japan (truly, our closest ally) who have literally devalued their currency just to boost the "less-mighty" dollar; and close to a trillion from 15 other nations around the globe... who knew???

Trickle down economics, my ass! Let's call it what it really is: piss on your head economics! Jesus Christ! Will we ever learn??? Don't ever hand them your checkbook!!! Bunch of frickin' clueless wonders in charge, I tell ya! Pass me the national credit card please! Credit limit breached? No problem. We'll just raise the debt ceiling every year because we can. Oh - and we'll do it late at night so as not to generate headlines and all...

An interest rate reduction (last Tuesday) of .75 basis points by the Federal Reserve (prior to the FOMC meeting, b.t.w.) speaks volumes to the avg. investor! Hello? It's reactionary; a.k.a. panic. And as we celebrated MLK Day with our financial markets closed, the Hang Seng slid into free-fall losing nearly 2,000 points; the DAX fell nearly .04%; the FTSE falling just shy of 3.5%; and the ASX closely mirroring the DAX losing nearly .04% in a single trading session. OUCH! That's why the Reserve Chairman cut the rates last Tuesday - pure and simple. Is it any wonder?!?!

No doubt, a betting man would certainly lay odds that the Reserve will, once again, lower the interest rate by at least .25 at the next FOMC meeting just to keep the markets' happy. How sad it is, I'd say... a dollar in free-fall and yet we're forced to cut interest rates just to avoid falling into recession. So... what's wrong with this picture? Anybody remember the demise of the Russian ruple? Let us pray. ;) But I digress...

Ask yourself this: when was the last time that Congress and the Admistration joined forces and actually came to an agreement (150 billion quick fix) so quickly? In a week's time, no less. It's a miracle! :)

More importantly, when has this country ever had to pump over 200 billion in liquidity (in a few short months) just to keep our financial markets from sinking? Oh, I know... that would be "never"! Hell, even the S&L bailout crisis required a smaller lifeboat...

But not to worry... the glass is half full. :lol: No doubt, we'll eventually get it together and ultimately overcome this fiscal crisis - common sense and fiscal disipline will ultimately prevail because it must - and I suspect that we'll be all-the-wiser in the long rung run... let us collectively hope so! ;)

As for me, personally, I'm scoring the largest profits to date trading this market. The irony is that it's like shooting fish in a barrel. I guess I'm just lucky. Damn! I'm long-winded! :)

So as to not hijack this thread, C.B. Ellis has updated Tampa's development status, wherein they suggest that "The Place, Phase II" is currently "under construction." Is this for real? Anybody know? :dunno:

Geez, that's a whole lot of panic...

I predict the dollar will rebound. You've got billions and billions of dollars tied up in real estate collateral and on the books of major banks that have just disappeared due to write downs. Billions and billions of additional value have disappeared in stock market troubles. And banks are reluctant to make loans, even with the slashed fed funds rate.

It's ugly, but the upshot is that with a lower supply of dollars, unless there's a massive cut in demand, the equilibrium price of dollars vs. other currency should climb. Besides, remember that other central banks in the world economy are also slashing their interest rates. As their money supply balloons, our dollar will improve by comparison.

The government spends too much money. But, the leveraged buying power of the government has in part caused our economy to keep expanding at a nice clip. At some point the government's long-term debt will become too large in comparison to tax-revenue growth, and I suspect the Fed will "ignore" inflation to pay its obligations off cheaper.

The best outcome is to cut spending while keeping taxes where they are. Shift federal spending and control on public welfare programs to the individual states, which have a lower rate of overhead. Stop justifying expensive strategic warfare spending (we don't need bigger and better bombs and tanks and airplanes to deal with terrorists who hide in apartments and mosques and schools...). Slash federal arts funding and congressional earmarks - let the states decide what they want to fund. Implement a budget line-item veto amendment, even if it takes a Constitutional amendment to do so.

I suspect if the Republicans continue the status quo, we'll get bigger spending on homeland defense and tax cuts, while if the Democrats get more power, we'll see tax increases that will push us further into recession.

As for the trade deficit... I'm a believer in free trade. Hiking tariffs is what sparked the Great Depression.

^ Red Brick Pizza? I'll be there this weekend. I love their pizza!

I'll have to go check it out as well. Always up for a good pizza. As such I usually end up making my own, but I'll give RB a shot.

We should have a forum gathering there some time. Seems like a logical location for a group like ours, being in the base of a highrise and all. :)

^^Sounds good, especially with our underage population it sounds better than meeting at a bar!

Lol... We could always slip them in a rather large handbag...lol. I kid, I kid!

On a side note, I was in Channelside for the Gasparilla Pirate send off, lots of fun btw, and I stumbled past Red Brick Pizza. It looks like a really cool place. Great place for a meet.

I went to Red Brick for lunch today. They are still learning the ropes (the people assembling the pizzas kept looking at the menu and carefully measuring things out), but I enjoyed it. They did a nice build out. Parking seems a bit odd though, is there no space in the ToC garage for the retail?

I went to Red Brick for lunch today. They are still learning the ropes (the people assembling the pizzas kept looking at the menu and carefully measuring things out), but I enjoyed it. They did a nice build out. Parking seems a bit odd though, is there no space in the ToC garage for the retail?
I'm guessing they believed the Channelside Parking Garage (real name is over my head) would hold both visitors there and the rest of Channelside. But ofcourse, common sense sometimes to come to some people.

More Retail/Residents= More visitors= Less Parkind Spaces!!!!!

And I can't see why I'm failing Math

(Not full article, print addition of biz journal)

Wading into the rental pool
Developers opt for 'Plan B' in fiscal survival effort
Friday, February 15, 2008
Tampa Bay Business Journal - by Michael Hinman Staff Writer
Print Article Email Article Reprints RSS Feeds Add to Del.icio.us Digg This

http://cll.bizjournals.com/story_image/110569-400-0.jpg?rev=3
Photo by JIm Stem, Illustration by Mark Warren
The rooftop pool area at Grand Central at Kennedy.
View Larger Related News

TAMPA -- It was originally marketed as "fresh urban living" where residents own and not rent. But now, one of the Channelside District's more talked about projects can't avoid some of the fiscal pressures from a nearly non-existent condominium market.

Grand Central at Kennedy is now offering more than 150 units for rent despite closing on 200 other units, while at the same time putting two other planned projects by developer Mercury Advisors nearby in limbo as the Tampa Bay housing market tries to stabilize.

"We always had a backup plan in place," said Ken Stoltenberg, a director for Mercury Advisors, which built the 392-unit Grand Central on the corner of Kennedy Boulevard and Madison Street. "We knew that if something like this [the downturn in the housing market] did happen, that we would lease the ones that didn't sell. We decided in November that we would be better off renting what we haven't sold as opposed to doing nothing."

Fighting to survive
The market change has threatened two other projects that Mercury Advisors had on the drawing table, including the 321-unit The Martin and the 33-story, 120-unit The DelVillar. The developer is looking at what else it can do with the land pegged for The Martin, next to Grand Central.

http://tampabay.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2008/02/18/story1.html

(Not full article, print addition of biz journal)

Wading into the rental pool
Developers opt for 'Plan B' in fiscal survival effort
Friday, February 15, 2008
Tampa Bay Business Journal - by Michael Hinman Staff Writer
Print Article Email Article Reprints RSS Feeds Add to Del.icio.us Digg This

http://cll.bizjournals.com/story_image/110569-400-0.jpg?rev=3
Photo by JIm Stem, Illustration by Mark Warren
The rooftop pool area at Grand Central at Kennedy.
View Larger Related News

TAMPA -- It was originally marketed as "fresh urban living" where residents own and not rent. But now, one of the Channelside District's more talked about projects can't avoid some of the fiscal pressures from a nearly non-existent condominium market.

Grand Central at Kennedy is now offering more than 150 units for rent despite closing on 200 other units, while at the same time putting two other planned projects by developer Mercury Advisors nearby in limbo as the Tampa Bay housing market tries to stabilize.

"We always had a backup plan in place," said Ken Stoltenberg, a director for Mercury Advisors, which built the 392-unit Grand Central on the corner of Kennedy Boulevard and Madison Street. "We knew that if something like this [the downturn in the housing market] did happen, that we would lease the ones that didn't sell. We decided in November that we would be better off renting what we haven't sold as opposed to doing nothing."

Fighting to survive
The market change has threatened two other projects that Mercury Advisors had on the drawing table, including the 321-unit The Martin and the 33-story, 120-unit The DelVillar. The developer is looking at what else it can do with the land pegged for The Martin, next to Grand Central.

http://tampabay.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2008/02/18/story1.html

Yep, they really screwed the people who bought in that project.

Yep, they really screwed the people who bought in that project.

A full building (via rentals) is better than a empty building because of unsold units. Who's getting screwed?

I have a friend who lives in Grand Central and she's constantly complaining about the renters there. Not that the developer is to blame, because many of the investors who closed have rented their units out too... She mentioned to me that it's like living in a college apartment complex - loud neighbors, trash left everywhere, and otherwise rude people.

I'm curious how the developer was able to convert the building to rentals since most condo docs limited rentals to 25% of the total number of units.

I'd be more concerned about lenders blacklisting the building, in my opinion. Many lenders will cut off lending where a buildings rental occupancy exceeds 30% (due to the risks involved).

These are tough times... I'm sure the developer is just doing what they have to do to protect their interests.

On a different topic, I'm hearing some not so great things about The Place... I won't say what they are since I haven't confirmed them (it would be irresponsible). Does anyone here have the skinny on what's going on over there? What about the people on this board that live there?

^I have a friend at Grand Central, and I hear the same things. Owners tend to take care of things more than renters. This will surely bring values down some in that building.

^What if the developer defaults and the property falls into bankruptcy? Is that better?

I'm afraid that this is a 'pick the lesser evil' situation.

I have a friend who lives in Grand Central and she's constantly complaining about the renters there. Not that the developer is to blame, because many of the investors who closed have rented their units out too... She mentioned to me that it's like living in a college apartment complex - loud neighbors, trash left everywhere, and otherwise rude people.

I'm curious how the developer was able to convert the building to rentals since most condo docs limited rentals to 25% of the total number of units.

I'd be more concerned about lenders blacklisting the building, in my opinion. Many lenders will cut off lending where a buildings rental occupancy exceeds 30% (due to the risks involved).

These are tough times... I'm sure the developer is just doing what they have to do to protect their interests.

On a different topic, I'm hearing some not so great things about The Place... I won't say what they are since I haven't confirmed them (it would be irresponsible). Does anyone here have the skinny on what's going on over there? What about the people on this board that live there?

I live in Skypoint and can tell you, owners here are concerned that Novare will follow the same model as Grand Central. I too am not sure what clause in the condo docs are used to circumvent the 25-30% rental cap.

The question with GC is whether it's better for the bank to take control and sell units at .50 on the dollar- injecting new owners into the bldg OR indefinitely having a rental property, whereby current owners will not be able to sell (as no banks will finance rental bldgs). I guess we can use ToC as a case study.

A full building (via rentals) is better than a empty building because of unsold units. Who's getting screwed?

Because a building full of rentals will make it harder for someone wishing to buy in there. It will mean that according to Fannie Mae/Freddy Mack the units are considered investment properties so anyone buying a unit will get stuck with a higher interest rate, higher down payment requirement, etc.

That obviously makes it harder for a current owner to sell their unit.

And as to how they are able to get around the condo docs - from what I've been told Grand Central's condo docs did not limit the amount of rental units. It was always their "plan b" to rent the units if they went unsold.

Because a building full of rentals will make it harder for someone wishing to buy in there. It will mean that according to Fannie Mae/Freddy Mack the units are considered investment properties so anyone buying a unit will get stuck with a higher interest rate, higher down payment requirement, etc.

That obviously makes it harder for a current owner to sell their unit.

And as to how they are able to get around the condo docs - from what I've been told Grand Central's condo docs did not limit the amount of rental units. It was always their "plan b" to rent the units if they went unsold.

It's obviously not ideal. But probably better than the building going into bankruptcy and have the price of units drop in half. That's not good for values either.

^What if the developer defaults and the property falls into bankruptcy? Is that better?

I'm afraid that this is a 'pick the lesser evil' situation.

It sucks no matter what they do.

^Welcome to America.

what is the one bedroom rental rate at grand central... Isn't it over $1,500?

what is the one bedroom rental rate at grand central... Isn't it over $1,500?

A bit cheaper:

http://tampa.craigslist.org/search/apa?query=grand+central&minAsk=min&maxAsk=max&bedrooms=

what is the one bedroom rental rate at grand central... Isn't it over $1,500?

Starts at $1,200

how are college maturity level individuals coming up with the money to rent these places.

^roommates I would think... or two jobs?

I pay $1300 for a bay area place - and a split it. San Francisco, that is.

It aint so bad for a new place...

Just for comparables, my wife and I paid like $675 for a one bedroom in the Georgian (Hills and Albany in HP) back in 2000-2002. We then moved to Bayshore South of Gandy (5221 Bayshore) and paid like $600 for a one bedroom and then about $700 for a two bedroom.

We are now paying $995 for a 2/2, 1200sf in Dunwoody, a mile north of Perimeter mall. A friend of ours is paying about $1900 for a 2400sf townhouse in a complex next door. It costs more to live in the good neighborhoods.

^ That still isn't bad. When I lived in an apt. in Brandon it was $1000/month.

Apartment rental rates are so screwy its silly. Get this, when my wife, then fiancee, and I moved in together on Davis Island (38 Davis Blvd, next to Seaborn) in 1998 we paid, $325 a month for a studio. About four months later a guy moved out upstairs, we took his one bedroom and the owner, a nice old guy who's name I forget, said that he would have to charge us a little more, $375 a month. About 150 yards south they were getting $550+ one similar sized apartments.

Angst towers over some buyers

Several are trying to regain deposits amid a bankruptcy filing.
By Emily Nipps, Times Staff Writer
Published February 29, 2008

CHANNELSIDE

When the Towers of Channelside luxury condo developers filed for bankruptcy last month, they mostly blamed the 168 buyers who put down 10 percent deposits but never followed through with the sales.

Two-thirds of the buyers walked away from their deposits, ranging from $30,000 to $100,000.

Some, it appeared, couldn't get financing for condos that cost about $275,000 and up; others were shy about closing in a shaky housing market, developers said in court documents.

Several buyers, however, have come forward with another side of the story, one of broken promises and slow construction. A few have filed lawsuits;others are in a war of letters with the developers, hoping to get their deposits back.

John Madiedo, who owns a local insurance company, put down $74,000 on two units one for him, one for his son and hoped to move in by late 2007. But as construction went on and the developers seemed antsy to finalize the sales, "things just didn't smell right and sound right," he said.

"This was a house of cards," Madiedo said, "and when they started pressuring people to close, that's when scares started happening."

Scott Newberger also is trying to get his deposit, $50,400, refunded. "People didn't just decide not to close," he said. "We went there and looked at the building and we were like, 'Hell, no.' "

* * *

At the peak of the real estate boom, Towers of Channelside looked like a fantastic investment, if not a chic place to live. The elegant drawings of the 29-story twin towers and floor plans of the 257 units were enough to sell all the condos before the project broke ground.

"I was very excited," said Newberger, a 44-year-old Tampa banker.

But after putting down his 10 percent and signing a contract in 2004, a series of events soured his taste for the project.

In March 2005, he received a new contract that was amended to extend the construction time from two years to three, though the amendments were not clearly highlighted, he said.

The sales office kept sending paperwork and notices to an old address, he said, despite several calls and e-mails informing the office that he had moved. Newberger suspected they were doing it on purpose to keep him uninformed.

Then, in August 2007, the sales office sent him a letter to set up a preclosing walk-through, but then rescheduled because the unit wasn't ready, he said.

In September, he did the walk-through and found unfinished drywall in the lobby, a concrete pit where the pool was supposed to be, and problems with the elevator and common areas, he said. He sent a certified letter saying he wasn't ready to close but says he never heard back.

Newberger began getting letters that said he would be in default of the sales contract if he didn't close quickly because he had already done the walk-through.

In the meantime, he kept writing the sales associate and developers to find out where his $54,400 was being held in escrow. He wanted to make sure the money had not been released to the developers because he was disputing the contract.

Newberger eventually learned the money was with U.S. Bank. He remained frustrated, though, because he said a manager there wouldn't give him details about his escrow.

Then, on Jan. 25, Towers of Channelside LLC filed for bankruptcy protection, claiming $50-million to $100-million in debt, $58-million of which is owed to the lender, Wachovia Corp.

Developer Michael McGuinness said he could not comment on Towers of Channelside. His partners, Brad Hite and Rich Sacchi, could not be reached. The sales associate, Becky Lane, said she no longer works for Towers of Channelside and could not comment because of the bankruptcy case.

Nine lawsuits

The Towers' bankruptcy filing has stalled nine lawsuits filed against the project in the past year.

Two were filed by attorney Brett Wadsworth, who represents Peter Hoobyar, Nicola Hoobyar and Clarence Rowland, buyers who never closed. He plans to go forward with the cases once the automatic stay, or protection against debtors, is lifted in bankruptcy court.

The lawsuits include accusations ranging from misrepresentation and fraud to breach of contract, Wadsworth said. He contends that the condo developers violated the Interstate Land Sales Full Disclosure Act, which protects property buyers from being misled.

His clients are upset because their units were issued certificates of occupancy by the city, although construction was ongoing inside the Towers buildings. According to their contracts, once the certificates were issued, the buyers were obligated to close on the condos.

"There are certain procedures a developer must follow if there are a certain number of units. ... And it is our position that the C.O. should not have been filed without sufficient completion of the building's construction," Wadsworth said.

Bob Bass, the city's chief construction inspector, said certificates of occupancy can be issued for condo units even though construction and landscaping are ongoing.

Some buyers, though, say the incomplete work was enough to make the building unsafe.

Newberger thinks he has found enough evidence to force the developers to give back his deposit without a lawsuit.

Madiedo said he doesn't want to pour more money into getting back his $74,000, but also doesn't want to give up without a fight and may eventually sue the Towers.

The cases could take months, or even years, to resolve.

A lawyer told Madiedo the case would cost $25,000 or more to pursue. He is just grateful that he didn't spend more than $700,000 on two condos that could be mired in construction delays and court battles.

"This project," Madiedo said, "is a blemish on the business landscape in this community."

Emily Nipps can be reached at nipps@sptimes.com or (813) 226-3431.

[Last modified February 28, 2008, 22:57:38]

http://www.sptimes.com/2008/02/29/Citytimes/Angst_towers_over_som.shtml

Channel District surveys reveal frustration, hopes
By Amy Scherzer, Times Staff Writer
Published February 29, 2008

CHANNEL DISTRICT - Consultants hired by the city's Community Redevelopment Agency to help determine the role of the arts in the Channel District summarized major findings this week.

Challenges and opportunities were identified from responses to an online survey of 2,300 residents, business owners, artists and nonprofit organizations.

About 65 individual interviews were also conducted.

Four major challenges were summed up for about 25 people who came to the Florida Aquarium on Monday evening and Tuesday morning:

- Parking is a concern of visitors and business owners.

- Lack of pedestrian traffic hinders retail growth.

- The high cost of real estate is perceived as a barrier.

- The perception of poor urban planning is prevalent.

Other issues that were raised concerned safety, security, street lighting and the perception of crime.

The survey also showed that people don't make a distinction between the cluster of shops and restaurants at Channelside and the broader Channel District neighborhood, said Leith ter Muelen, president of LandAir Project Resources, which conducted the survey and will be paid $35,000 to assess existing arts assets, research national trends, vet ideas and make recommendations.

Respondents perceived that the area attracts a 20-something demographic to an atmosphere attuned to clubs and parties, noted consultant Jeffrey Ling, vice president of Evergreen Solutions, which is helping with the survey.

That image does not distinguish between thriving Channelside entertainment and the emerging Channel District, Ling concurred, also noting the need for branding.

Frustration came across loud and clear in focus groups conducted by the consultants.

Residency hasn't taken off as expected. Transportation problems include getting in and out of the district. The streetcar and parking got mixed reviews.

Ling also said 57 percent of respondents were unaware that the Channel District is in a state Enterprise Zone with opportunities for business owners to accrue tax benefits.

Consultant Paul Nagle used buzzwords like diversity, outreach and integration, citing Providence, Pittsburgh, Toronto and Dublin as examples of cities turning arts districts into sustainable economic successes.

"The key is to diversify programming, audience and revenue sources," Nagle said. "The broader the support, the broader the survival."

Asked to name the area's attributes, two Channel District residents spoke up.

"The potential," Blake Hayden said, a board member of the Community Redevelopment Agency. "That's a positive to me."

"Location," said Darren Guilbeau, also a business owner. "You can walk to the St. Pete Times Forum. It's easy to get to the airport, Brandon, Ybor."

Both men agreed with Stageworks Theatre board member Andrea Graham's call to capitalize on the outdoor aspect of the Channel District, calling for cafes, street vendors, play areas and an open air market.

Ling closed the morning session asking participants to name a more optimal location in which to live or open a business.

"Downtown St. Petersburg," murmured a few.

Amy Scherzer can be reached at scherzer@sptimes.com or (813) 226-3332.

[Last modified February 28, 2008, 22:59:37]

http://www.sptimes.com/2008/02/29/Citytimes/Channel_District_surv.shtml

The thing about the "downtown St. Petersburg" murmur that bugs me is that it took about 20 years to get downtown St. Pete to its current state. I can remember going to the Cafe Detroit when I was in high school for concerts and stuff and thinking, this is going to be cool. Then more and more small shops made the commitment to lose money for a few years until the area improved. Throughout the early 90's when the Big Catch had its heyday and all the other little clubs and bars opened the area grew and solidified. This was all prior to Baywalk, DT SP had a cool vibe to it. It served the USF SP community well. There were lots of small low key bars and restaraunts, it was and is a cool area. But it took 10 years to really get going and now that its a work in progress for over 20 years. There has always been a residential aspect to DT SP, there were warehouses in Channelside 5 years ago. Its going to take time and commitment by visionary business owners to create a vibrant area. If its a bunch of retirees in Ventana waiting for a Chico's to move in, it'll be a long wait. But if you get a few places like Spain opening there, it will work eventually.

One of the most essential elements of an arts district / community is dense, affordable housing. Something Channelside completely lacks.
It's laughable Tampa thinks Channelside could be their neigborhood of the arts. In fact I'd go so far as to say whoever is making that designation has their head up their ass.

Seminole Heights will continue to humbly fill that role. Like downtown St. Petersburg, there is a bohemian vibe and and an abundance of inexpensive housing.

Exactly, its more likely to become a more verticle Hyde Park than an Arts District. I think it would be a great place to open an architecture studio, law office, small professional office, etc... Then you could get a few small dining/drinking establishments and you might have something.

The problem is, the scale has to be much larger to both make it worth buying the land, and worth it for the city and existing taxpayers to have funded the infrastructure spent in the area... And believe me, it's a big number that would probably set off howls with the rightwing knee-jerk reactionaries if they caught wind of it.

DT St Pete has this great grid just sitting there, thoroughly underused even today. The nearby old neighborhoods somehow blend well with DT, even with 175 and 375...That isn't the case in DT Tampa, where the grid sucks ass (highways and water chop it all up), making Channelside an isolated entity. imo Channelside needs lots of density, else it will never live up to the hype.

The good thing is that by and large, we'll get it in time. A lot of people hoped that it would take off in 5 years... Turns out it will be more like 9-10.

Now it has decent density, if people were actually living in all those empty units. Its just expensive and is more likely to be small professional offices on the first floor with residences above. Its very unlikely to be lots of retail.

^We've talked about there here before... For the retail to really take hold, there would have to be a couple million sqft of office space in the district too. There's just not enough feet on the pavement, nor enough transit reach to bring people, nor enough room for the parking needed to bring people in to support good street retail.

how are college maturity level individuals coming up with the money to rent these places.

Parents.
Look at UT's majority. Rich Northeastern kids.
:)

^ That's good.

^ That's good.

Its keeping the pricing high! If kids or people weren't renting they would be vacant, causing the prices to go down where normal Tampanians can afford.

Now it has decent density, if people were actually living in all those empty units. Its just expensive and is more likely to be small professional offices on the first floor with residences above. Its very unlikely to be lots of retail.

I planned on opening up a small boutique title insurance company in Channelside, "Channelside Title" (http://channelsidetitleonline.com) currently off Kennedy. However, the rents are currently to high. If anyone knows of any deals down in Channelside please let me know!
:bash:

Haven't heard from you in a while Josh. Yeah, rent is high everywhere...quite saddening for any budding entrepreneur.

Anyone have any updates on anything in Channelside??? I might convince my family to go down there on Monday since it will be my birthday, but if anyone has any updates, that would be great. Espicially on Seaboard Square and The Slade

^^
happy early b-day! :cheers:

^^
happy early b-day! :cheers:
Thanks dude, Big 18! Can't wait........

18?

Dang! I didn't know you were that young. I'm still shocked at how young Jordan is. I bet all these younger people (including myself) make Jason fell REALLY old :lol:.

Anyways, back to topic now...

^Nah, I'm more than used to it.

^Nah, I'm more than used to it.
How old are you, around 30?

:D

---

I am 22... I would guess Jason is 28

We'll discuss it some other time, in the right thread.

^^
yep

We'll discuss it some other time, in the right thread.

Jasonhouse:bow:, our MasterChief:master: and friend:righton:,
Congrats to your NOW 8,000th POST !!!:dance:, and I know your around 34 now:cheers:,
Long Live the Master !!!:cheer::applause:

bah, I've got many more than that.

^^
You gotta see the thread in the skybar Jase, everyone is now congratulating you on your 8,000th post :cheer:

I have a question....I went to a hockey game last night and saw they were building something right next to the arena. It almost looked like it was in the parking lot and they were on the second floor. What is that?

I have a question....I went to a hockey game last night and saw they were building something right next to the arena. It almost looked like it was in the parking lot and they were on the second floor. What is that?

It's the Tampa Bay History Museum.

I have a question....I went to a hockey game last night and saw they were building something right next to the arena. It almost looked like it was in the parking lot and they were on the second floor. What is that?

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=460210

THIS CAN'T BE GOOD:

Thursday, March 6, 2008 - 2:51 PM EST
Place at Channelside developer seeks bankruptcy protectionTampa Bay Business Journal - by Michael Hinman Staff Writer
Print Article Email Article Reprints RSS Feeds Add to Del.icio.us Digg This
Another high-profile condominium developer in Tampa's Channelside District is seeking protection from creditors.

Key Developers Group LLC, developer of the 469-unit The Place at Channelside, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection Wednesday in the U.S. Bankruptcy Court's Middle District of Tampa citing assets between $100 million and $500 million, and liabilities between $50 million and $100 million.

Few details about the bankruptcy filing are known as documentation listing major creditors as well as a case management summary have yet to be filed. A phone call is pending return from Scott A. Stichter of Stichter Riedel Blain & Prosser PA, who is representing Key Developers and its president Fida Sirdar Hussain.

This is the second bankruptcy filed by a Channelside developer this year. The Towers of Channelside LLC, which built the twin 29-story, 257-unit condominium towers across from Channelside Bay Plaza, filed for Chapter 11 protection Jan. 25 after Wachovia Bank threatened to declare a default on its $105.8 million loan used for construction.

The official Web site for The Place at Channelside said as late as Thursday that units there were "95 percent sold." The complex is located between Channelside Drive and South 12th Street between East Washington and East Whiting streets.

Key Developers had been hit with a number of lawsuits in recent months, mostly from those committed to buy in the complex. Last November, nearly 100 suits had been filed against the company for a range of actions including rescission demands and breach of contract.

"Channelside is a natural for The Place because of the unique blend of amenities within walking distance," Sirdar said when announcing the project in July 2004. "Our project wants to set the tone for future gentrification."

Unit sizes ranged form 926 to 3,665 square feet, and were originally listed from $180,000 to more than $1 million. Buildout for both towers was estimated at $194 million.

A meeting of creditors is set for April 2 at 1:30 p.m. at the 501 E. Polk St. courthouse.

^

This was part of the bad news I had first learned of about two weeks ago (and solicited here if anyone else had heard the same chatter), but couldn't publicly mention any specifics... There's a lot more to the story, which I'm sure will play out in the media of the next couple of weeks.

It won't be pretty....

This sucks because this is the same guy who was pushing The Place II. His "vision" for the area was more towers and it now appears DOA.

Unfortunately the "vision" was a tad too ambitious. I think the area is great with the current massing. Unfortunately, there aren't enough buyers for the units. Its not really an oversupply issue, but a pricing level. If they could (and they probably can) drop pricing 30-40% then maybe people will step up. But right now if you want 1050 sf Living Area SFR (2/1) on a decent sized lot in South Tampa you can have one for $169,500 (I know because that is what I am trying to sell for). So that is what they are competing against. It is an scary market. I'm just happy my bank is willing to do a short sale. If I can find a buyer that is. The $200+ pricing for small 1 and 2 bed units in a mid-rise condo were insane for the market.

Well I guess there won't be any point tower with The Place... Its a real shame. The economy is getting ugly.

Condo buyers: Return deposits

The Channelside developer denies accusations of deceptive practices.
By Emily Nipps, Times Staff Writer
Published March 7, 2008

Since the Towers of Channelside condominium developers filed for bankruptcy in late January, a dozen or more buyers have either threatened or filed lawsuits to get their 10 percent deposits back.

Some claim they were pressured to close before construction was finished and others believe they were duped by shady business practices or altered contracts.

None of it's true, developer Rich Sacchi told City Times this week.

"These people are looking for every excuse to not close," Sacchi said. "We finished the work, we fulfilled our obligations and now it's up to them to fulfill theirs."

Sacchi believes that too many inexperienced investors got caught up in the hot 2004 real estate market when the twin towers' 257 units - worth $275,000 to $3-million - sold out within two weeks. When the time came to close late last year, two-thirds of the units went unclaimed. Several buyers walked away from their 10 percent deposits, leaving about $6.9-million behind.

It's not nearly enough to cover the $50-million to $100-million in debt that the developers have claimed in bankruptcy court, but they have asked a judge to use most of the deposit money toward paying off the debt, since the buyers defaulted on their contracts.

Local attorney Brett Wadsworth represents three clients who want that money back, saying there were problems with the contracts and that the building was unfinished at closing time.

Another attorney, Mike Rodriguez, said he represents a buyer looking to get her deposit back before the developers claim it in court.

"It's my opinion that they may have withheld information from bankruptcy court," Rodriguez said.

Sacchi said that's not true. "For every attorney who says one thing," he said, "you can find an attorney who says the opposite. That's what attorneys do."

As for the buyers who complained about unfinished construction, Sacchi said they should come see it now. It's "100 percent" complete, he said, except for a few touchups here and there. The developers finished everything before its promised date of March 2008, according to his interpretation of the final contract which extended the original time frame to complete construction from two years to three.

"We're still working with people," he said. "If they want to close, we'd love to help them close."

Sacchi doesn't suspect they will, though, because he believes many buyers were looking to flip the condos, not live in them. And in the current condo market, no one is able to flip.

"People just got caught up in the market," he said.

As for the bankruptcy filing, Sacchi said the Chapter 11 reorganization will allow them to finish the project and keep selling the units. The sales office is getting about 60 visitors per week, he said, and "it's business as usual."

Almost a hundred of the units have now sold and are occupied, and four of the five retail spaces are occupied by restaurants and a wine and liquor shop. The fifth space is under contract.

"It's the best project in Tampa right now," Sacchi said. "Hands down."

Emily Nipps can be reached at nipps@sptimes.com or (813) 226-3431.

[Last modified March 7, 2008, 00:40:59]

http://www.sptimes.com/2008/03/07/Citytimes/Condo_buyers__Return_.shtml

By JANIS D. FROELICH, The Tampa Tribune

Published: March 12, 2008

CHANNEL DISTRICT - A three-tower project that could include a hotel, residences and retail is moving ahead but with a scaled-down version for now.

Gibraltar Development Corp. will ask the city council on Thursday to rezone only half of its 22 acres, said Michael English of WilsonMiller, an engineering, planning and design company working on the project.

English said Gibraltar always had planned to develop in phases, but some of the office areas have been trimmed.

"Gibraltar would like to start tomorrow," he said.

About 298,000 square feet of office space is planned instead of 409,500. Retail space remains at 55,000 square feet.

Residential units have gone up from 812 to 1,105, project planner Evan Johnson said.

Of the plan presented at the Channel District Council meeting in November, the basics are maintained, English said. The acreage where most of International Ship Repair & Marine Services is located will include three public parks in the North Ybor Channel area. In the shadow of the Lee Roy Selmon Expressway between Ybor City and the Channel District, the property will also provide a new streetcar stop.

The property is next to the future site of Ikea, a Swedish furniture chain.

A 1,000-foot-long Harbor Walk is planned along the water, but Gibraltar doesn't plan boat slips because of port security concerns, Channel District residents were told.

Tad Humphreys, president of International Ship, said he spends 20 percent of his time on the company's relocation.

"I have a couple spots in mind," he said.

The International Ship property includes portions leased from the Tampa Port Authority. Humphreys said any timetable Gibraltar presents to him "would be doable."

The Clearwater-based Gibraltar also is developing the residential high-rise Venu on the southwest corner of Ashley Drive and Kennedy Boulevard.

Shit, so much for that project producing something of worth, architecturally speaking... They're already VE-ing it to death.

Well if anything the fact that Gibraltar is pushing this project should be good news for Venu. Interesting that they would nix office space and add residential units in the current market though...

Anyone know how tall these "towers" are supposed to be? Great that they are adding a TECO stop though.

Steve

I don't know how tall they are going to be... I don't like the idea of scaling down though. Why should the city allow prime property to be built at a level beneath what it could handle? I don't think the towers were all that high to begin with.

Its a private property, so the city can't really say anything if the proposal meets all applicable codes. They could stick a Waffle House there if they could meet zoning and site development. But really anything is better than either abandoned buildings or vacant lots. Cities grow organically, and quite frankly I would prefer to see a tiered step-up towards downtown and not a bunch of will-nilly towers sprouting all over the place. That's what Atlanta has and it kind sucks.