Yeah, but I'm tired of developers getting one thing approved by the city, then building something else. I would think they'd have to get their new proposal approved as well.

Well if anything the fact that Gibraltar is pushing this project should be good news for Venu. Interesting that they would nix office space and add residential units in the current market though...
Because the office market is quickly getting overbuilt again, and residential will recover way before the office market, especially downtown.

The meeting for the project is tonight. Anyone attend it?

Does anyone have a future skyline with all of the projected buildings?
I have never seen one exept with individual models.

Does anyone have a future skyline with all of the projected buildings?
I have never seen one exept with individual models.

Jason was working on one in another thread. I can't find the thread and I don't think anything ever became of it. :dunno:

Does anyone have a future skyline with all of the projected buildings?
I have never seen one exept with individual models.
Just imagine a Tampa version of the Grand Canyon. 2 ridges of skyscrapers and than a bottomless pit of parking spaces in the middle.

In seriousness, something needs to happen between Channelside and CBD. I believe the only projects every proposed in the middle of Tampa were Tampa Tower/s and wasn't Four Seasons proposed somewhere in the barren land of weeds and crack asphalt?

The Union Station office towers would qualify as the edge of CBD, so that would help. Also the Prime Meridian tower would help too, in spite of the contrversy it has on this board.

Steve

There were pictures of the proposed project in the print edition of the paper. I don't know how to post them.

^In today's Tribune? If they're in the Tribune I'll scan them.

The meeting was rescheduled to March 27th for the Ybor Channel project.

The meeting was rescheduled to March 27th for the Ybor Channel project.
Any reason why?

It sucks that they scaled down this project. But I just don't understand why they cut down the office units but added more residential. I know both markets are quite shitty at the moment, but would it had been smarter to cut both or even changed the residential to hotels?

And also, I still don't know where the exact location is for this. Is this project on the lot next to the Crosstown?

^I'm not sure why but I got it in e-mail from the developer itself. ;)

As far as the scaling down, it doesn't appear to be that big of a deal. The developer appears to be simply going in phases, which seems smart to me at this time. When the article said "scaling down" I think they meant the fact that the current rezoning is only for half of the site.

Sure they took out about 110,000 square feet of office, but they added about 300 residential units. If the project remains at the same total square footage for everything combined, that means each newly added unit will only be around 370 square feet. (110,000 sq. ft. office taken out / 300 units replacing that office = 370 sq. ft. per unit, since each added unit can't possibly be only 370 sq. ft., they must have added to the total project's square footage) Actually, I think they ADDED total square footage to the project, which means they could've actually added to the towers, or at least redistributed units throughout the site.

And if they don't plan to develop the remaining 11 or so acres, then they must've increased density, which is good.

^I'm not sure why but I got it in e-mail from the developer itself. ;)

As far as the scaling down, it doesn't appear to be that big of a deal. The developer appears to be simply going in phases, which seems smart to me at this time. When the article said "scaling down" I think they meant the fact that the current rezoning is only for half of the site.

Sure they took out about 110,000 square feet of office, but they added about 300 residential units. If the project remains at the same total square footage for everything combined, that means each newly added unit will only be around 370 square feet. (110,000 sq. ft. office taken out / 300 units replacing that office = 370 sq. ft. per unit, since each added unit can't possibly be only 370 sq. ft., they must have added to the total project's square footage) Actually, I think they ADDED total square footage to the project, which means they could've actually added to the towers, or at least redistributed units throughout the site.

And if they don't plan to develop the remaining 11 or so acres, then they must've increased density, which is good.
I want emails! :(

well, it's only a week and half until the meeting, we'll be getting new renders soon. I'm just happy this is still going. For a while, we thought this was dead.

It was in the Tribune on March 12th

^How'd it look?

It was in the Tribune on March 12th
WHAT??? And I missed it? :mad:

To be honest, I didn't count the number of floors but I'd guess right at about 20 floors or so. There were three buildings from what I remember and park space up to and against the crosstown and underneath. The article claimed 4 new urban parks and lots of open space. It looked better then what's currently there (silos) though I was hoping for taller buildings in that area.

The one good thing is that the article mentioned they are ready to start "tommorrow" on development of the site.

No, it said they would like to start tomorrow. I would like a lot of things tomorrow, it doesn't mean I'm ready to do them. There's a lot of doubletalk out there, I'll believe they will start tomorrow when I see them starting work tomorrow.

I peeked into Venu's sales center this past weekend and it's completely empty, bare commercial carpet and some wires hanging in places. I was never in it before, so I'm not sure how built out it was, but it's gone. The Venu banners are still hanging up in the windows, blocking the view of the empty room.

^According to the developer, via email, Venu is "on hold".

I'm not sure if that means active sales have been suspended or what, but it is from the developer so take it for what its worth.

^^^
Man, I hope Venu gets built. But I dont want an overload of condos in the downtown market.

We already have an overload. I think Venu's problem is that the art musuem isn't proposed to be directly across the street, like it was when the project was announced.

We already have an overload. I think Venu's problem is that the art musuem isn't proposed to be directly across the street, like it was when the project was announced.

Whether the art museum is directly across the street, or down the street, isn't a major factor in Venu's viability. If and/or when the market can bear more downtown condos is the key.

In that case, see you in 8-10 years Venu. Too much overcapacity to sell between DT and Channelside. You are more likely to see a new residential tower going up along Bayshore in the interim, than one DT.

Venu probably won't look the same either because the Florida Building Code is changed about every 3-4 years on average so that is like two code changes, creating probably too many to count little design revisions. Its the things like allowable loads that gradually change the thickness of floor systems and the design pressure on windows that create reduced opening sizes due to cost, etc....

It just teaches developers to get their act together and get building while the market is starting to heat up, not at the peak. Its too expensive to sit on your hands.

The city should look into regulating the inevitable foreclosure sales that are going to happen in downtown residential projects, to help ensure that the bulk of sales go to people who will actually live in the units. What downtown doesn't need is yet another corporation buy them up, and then sit on units, or rent them for a couple years in the hopes of selling for more, or even to try and quickly flip with a markup.

And perhaps the city should take a look at somehow developing more stringent rules of their own about condo project sales policies (to again ensure that sales are to new residents, not investors). It's pretty clear that the developers didn't do much to ensure this on their own, which is a huge part of why these projects are floundering now.

I think the whole "lottery" process to sell the units was a scam in all honesty. I know many many people who put their name in the lottery who actually would've lived in the units but their name didn't come up. Something is fishy about the whole thing.

The problem is that I don't think the city can manipulate the market like that. They can try to write whatever laws they want, but eventually it gets too complicated with existing state and federal real estate laws and regs.

Remember, the St. Pete Beach tried to tinker with their development rules and all they got was a giant mess and no one wanting to jump into the mud to sort it out. Its more a national problem than a Tampa specific one and we should probably let the process sort itself out over the next couple years.

If you look at how many condos have been absorbed by the market in the years prior to the "boom" it is understandable that this many units do not sell quickly. It appears that none of the developers has done anything like a market study before they started.

However, I think residential construction in downtown Tampa will have a "comeback" in about 2 years. By then, the Bank and real estate crisis should be totally over, the economy will be back on the rise and downtown will have a finished Curtis Hixon Park, 3 new museums, and parts of the riverwalk finished which will completely change the image of downtown. Also, we might see a new office tower and more hotels pretty soon.

Tampa has done an outstanding job redeveloping many areas. Since they are so big, we just need to be patient until the pieces of the puzzle will connect. Imagine: Hyde Park, Ybor City, Harbour Island, the immediate CBD, Channelside, West Bank, The Heights, Central Park. In addition to that: Westshore and Rocky Point with a lot of projects.

The problem though is that every developer I know did have extensive market studies performed... The data that was used turned out to be crap because of what is now being termed "phantom demand" - demand that on paper exists, but in reality does not.

We can all attest that we knew people who were buying real estate, swearing that they were going to move into it, all the while having ZERO intention of ever making the second mortgage payment on the home (they hoped to flip it right after closing or within 60 days). We even hear about senior citizens putting their retirement accounts at risk by buying condos they never had any intention of living in.

It was this variable that many professionals had a "feeling" was out there, but couldn't get a grasp on just how bad it would be because nearly every speculator was lying about it. They lied when they signed contracts with anti-investor clauses. They lied when they applied for primary mortgages. They lied when they told fellow buyers at developer parties that it was going to be a second home.

All of the feasibility studies I've read used actual, hard data. The problem was that it all turned out to be crap (i.e. sales that occured that would have never occured in a normal market).

Everyone likes to blame developers, realtors and the like (and some do share the blame - especially those that targeted and knowingly fed off the speculator market), but most people fail to recongize that the speculators did anything possible (i.e. lie) to buy builder presales, regardless of investor prohibition clauses, primary home mortgage clauses, and what not.

Most people thought if they kept their mouths shut and lied, they'd get in on the gravy train - all the while they were just one of millions doing the exact same thing - which is why this market bubbled... and popped.

On the Venu topic, I was in their sales center late last year. It was on the fourth floor, if my memory serves right. It was definitely filled with marketing displays, scaled models, and a vignette kitchen and bath display. I remember talking to some former tenants of that building, who were quite ticked with they way they were given notice to vacate... It's always good to remember not to burn bridges, because tables can turn very quickly...

Also, I agree with Jasonhouse that Venu was using the Art Museum's "Cube" location as a basis for their lifestyle propostion. Their marketing plan and advertising was all about their proximity to the "cube" art museum and they were definitely targeting the upper-income typical art lover buyer (hence the prospoed original artwork and sculptures in the common areas and whatnot).

In reality, I'm sure they'd be happy to get anyone, but I thought even back then they were way off base in their expectations. The floorplans, with the exception of their penthouses, absolutely sucked (imho).

In my opinion, the people who never would have lived in the building would have enjoyed the better deal. They'd get to enjoy a great looking building without paying one cent, while the owners who lived in it suffered with terribly inefficient and poorly designed living spaces.

Harsh, I know, but if you saw what I saw - you'd most likely agree.

OK, OK, enough about Venu. Let's get back to Channelside news...

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/realestate/article423196.ece

Channelside construction plans start to build
By Steve Huettel, Times Staff Writer
Published Tuesday, March 18, 2008 9:54 PM

Two new buildings should start sprouting out of Tampa's Channelside district this year, neither contributing to the glut of empty condos. Garrison Station, a 250-unit apartment project next to the Channelside Bay Mall, could break ground at the end of 2008. It was the site for Downtown Channelside, a planned 30-story condo tower with retail and office space. The developers have joined with apartment builder ZOM to buy the 3.5-acre site from the Tampa Port Authority for $10.2-million. The authority is making plans for a $7-million parking garage expansion with 700 to 800 spaces across Channelside Drive from the mall. If approved by port commissioners, construction could start in August and be completed in a year.

[Last modified Tuesday, March 18, 2008 9:54 PM]

Between this project, Post's project on Howard and the huge number of vacant condos in the rental market, it looks like there will be plenty of options for those who don't want to buy. I would bet that this project will be built with converting to condo in a few years just like Post Harbour Island. This means that the glut and overcapacity in condos will take many years to work-off.

thank goodness we are getting more rentals in the area! i have always believed that the condo conversion craze that had taken over was one of the main reasons our local economy has been in a slump! hopefully things will start to turn around here despite our national problems.
will this zom project be wher the parking lot between channelside plaza and beneficial drive where the sun cruises have been docking?

MORE ON THE PARKING GARAGE EXPANSION:

Planners Chart More Parking For Channelside
By TED JACKOVICS

The Tampa Tribune

Published: March 19, 2008


TAMPA - Parking at Channelside Bay Plaza could become more plentiful by late summer of next year under a proposal to add up to 900 spaces to the port authority's 2,500-space parking garage.

Port officials previewed an expansion plan Tuesday for the garage that serves cruise passengers and patrons of the Channelside entertainment district.

Construction costs would be about $7 million for a four-story addition on port property adjacent to and west of the garage along Channelside Drive, the port authority staff estimated.

Port authority commissioners could consider bids by July if all goes smoothly in working out details for the type of contract proposal that would best suit the project, port director Richard Wainio said.

The project could get under way in August and take a year to complete, port officials said.

"We can get double the number of spaces in the addition if we use it for valet parking, where you might double-park cars," Wainio said, explaining how the small parcel could accommodate up to 900 vehicles.

The expansion would help relieve the loss of 363 uncovered, surface parking spaces adjacent to the Channelside entertainment complex. Those include valet parking spaces that will be lost when a nearby Byrd Corp. condominium project gets under way, which port officials said could begin this year.

The expanded parking garage also will help fill increased demand for Channelside parking on weekends and for St. Pete Times Forum events, officials said.

"It's a growing area, and parking is one of the dynamic components," said Christine Burdick, president of the Downtown Tampa Partnership.

"Often on weekends, the garage gets full when people come from all over the area to use the entertainment district," she said.

Burdick said any advance in parking is a welcome development for an issue that has been in discussion for more than a year.

Wainio emphasized that garage expansion plans are in a preliminary stage. One thought might be to use the ground floor of the expansion for a staging area for trucks that serve cruise ships. The area where the trucks now park also would be lost when the Byrd Corp. condominium project gets under way, officials said.

Reporter Ted Jackovics can be reached at tjackovics@tampatrib.com or (813) 259-7817.

^yeah... They will surely be pricey, so I wouldn't get your hopes up too much with regards to this helping out the rental market. It may help push other units in less desirable locations towards foreclosure if they occupied by the time this is completed, but that's about it.

Too bad they can't add another level to the garage, and rework the ground level to feature some retail / small office storefronts wherever possible. The dead zone the Port's garage creates between the 'Channelside Mall' as it's now called, and the condos to the north really, really sucks... It's kind of ironic that one of the worst urban 'offenders' in the neighborhood, when it comes to creating an interesting street scene, is a govt owned structure.

Wainio emphasized that garage expansion plans are in a preliminary stage. One thought might be to use the ground floor of the expansion for a staging area for trucks that serve cruise ships. The area where the trucks now park also would be lost when the Byrd Corp. condominium project gets under way, officials said.

Reporter Ted Jackovics can be reached at tjackovics@tampatrib.com or (813) 259-7817.
Woo....woo....woooooo..... They couldn't be talking about Blu Channelside can they? Because that's where the trucks park and Byrd Corps. is/was involved in Blu Channelside.

^It's talking about the project in the article at the top of the page. Which is a redone Blu. (same site)

Between this apartment project, Prime Meridian, and the Seaboard hotel we may have a nice little cluster of cranes in the southern thrid of Channelside by year's end if all goes well. :yes:

Like Jason said, these apartments probably are going to be big and expensive. 250 units doesn't sound like a lot for that site, unless the tower is too short. Not to mention the fact that price will be driven up by location.

^It's talking about the project in the article at the top of the page. Which is a redone Blu. (same site)

Between this apartment project, Prime Meridian, and the Seaboard hotel we may have a nice little cluster of cranes in the southern thrid of Channelside by year's end if all goes well. :yes:

Like Jason said, these apartments probably are going to be big and expensive. 250 units doesn't sound like a lot for that site, unless the tower is too short. Not to mention the fact that price will be driven up by location.
Oh, is that where it is going. What a shame actually. That site had lots of potential and if the folks on Harbour View didn't had to b*tch about every single thing, Blu would had started before everyone realized that our housing market was going downhill. But I guess that's a good thing, because than we would have empty condos and what a waste. I just hope Garrison Station brings the area more than just apartments.

True, we will have a nice small cluster of cranes by the end of the year. You also have to remember that the garage will be U/C and than you have the others.

^It's a shame the H.I. people had to shoot down the grocer there in Blu. Especially since it would've benefited them too. But I'm sure this project will have a good amount of retail They've got the site land for a significant amount.

Channelside will probably get a grocery store eventually anyway, maybe in a more central location in the district.

Either way, I'll wait until I see renderings and get more info on Garrison Station before making a decision of whether this is a worthy replacement to Blu. :)

I want to know where this garage is going that the Port is building. I thought that they were adding to the existing garage (makes the most sense), but the article that was posted at the same time as my last post seems to indicate a new garage being built on a parcel "west" of the existing garage? That's either T@C or that tiiiny sliver of land between T@C and Channelside Drive. (where that logo thing is)

Surely they're not going to put a garage there, when it should SO CLEARLY either be a spot for a small project like 1000 Channelside (4 story live-work space) or a park, which would be immensely popular with residents, and give them another reason to walk down 12th... The Port Authority can't seriously be considering trashing yet more of the streetscape with a parking garage, in one of the few places in all of Tampa with sufficient foot traffic to support storefront retail. They need to rework the garage they've got, or stipulate that a portion of the Garrison Station parcel become a common easement). Good grief, they can't wedge a garage in between Channelside Dr and where Red Brick Pizza is, that will look hideous.

Don't underestimate the optomism of parking garage designers. Have you ever tried to park in the Wachovia bldg's. It probably 5-10 percent more marked spaces than actual capacity. They try to cram in as many "compact" spaces as they can. They are supposed to stick to standard AIA approved sizes, but I've found it is nepotiable. But because we have so many minivan/suv driving women around who cannot seem to pull straight into a space (keeping parallel to the lines is such a task :bash:), it kills the stated capacity. So when they say 900 cars its probably closer to 810, when you factor in optomistic parking space sizing.

I want to know where this garage is going that the Port is building. I thought that they were adding to the existing garage (makes the most sense), but the article that was posted at the same time as my last post seems to indicate a new garage being built on a parcel "west" of the existing garage? That's either T@C or that tiiiny sliver of land between T@C and Channelside Drive. (where that logo thing is)

Surely they're not going to put a garage there, when it should SO CLEARLY either be a spot for a small project like 1000 Channelside (4 story live-work space) or a park, which would be immensely popular with residents, and give them another reason to walk down 12th... The Port Authority can't seriously be considering trashing yet more of the streetscape with a parking garage, in one of the few places in all of Tampa with sufficient foot traffic to support storefront retail. They need to rework the garage they've got, or stipulate that a portion of the Garrison Station parcel become a common easement). Good grief, they can't wedge a garage in between Channelside Dr and where Red Brick Pizza is, that will look hideous.
I totally agree Jason. Trying to squeeze a 4-story garage on that lot of land will be 1) Completely ugly and 2) Impossible and useless. And it doesn't really add up too. It just doesn't seem like 800 parking spaces can fit in a 4-story garage with that much room. I wouldn't even say 400 parking spaces can fit in there. Something has to be wrong.

I think the BoA parking garage has like 1200 spaces and it is 12 or 13 stories tall...don't see how they can fit a few hundred in a 4 story garage with that small of a footprint.

Yeah it can't be at the location of the Channelside sign. You can't possibly fit 200 spots a level on that small sliver.

I think the BoA parking garage has like 1200 spaces and it is 12 or 13 stories tall...don't see how they can fit a few hundred in a 4 story garage with that small of a footprint.
My guess, making more sense, would be that this new garage will be North of Towers of Channelside, bordered by E Cumberland Ave, S 11th St, S 12th St, and that building to the North. If this isn't it, I have no clue where the real location is.

^That's Seaboard Square I think.

^That's Seaboard Square I think.
I think Seaboard Square is the lot west of the one I'm talking about. Because this lot has a recently new lofts on the site, I just don't remember the name.

The Port owns the land I described above. The land up north of Cumberland is for Seaboard Square, Del Villar, etc... Maybe they're going to have 12th vacated between T@C and the existing garage? Even so, the new garage would probably have to be long and skinny, with the long axis along Channelside, effectively walling off 12th and T@C from Channelside... Holy crap that is the wrong place to put a garage.

Damn, we need to find out what's up with this one.


http://aycu39.webshots.com/image/49838/2004087750813426254_rs.jpg

^ I hope that isn't the location. If they want to build a parking garage - fine, but not there. Not without a building on top of it or something. Why do we keep wasting good space on something so stupid?

I don't mind a garage in that place as long as they build a nice fassade and put retail/restaurants in the ground floor.

^The article describes the ground floor as being extra tall, so that it can be used as a loading zone for big trucks... Considering the piece of land in question is a triangular shape and is less than an acre, there's barely enough room for the ramp structure, truck loading zone, and the structure/service cores of the garage itself. There isn't going to be to be any retail, else it would have been mentioned.

I don't understand why they don't do a deal with the Garrison Station project to have a couple levels in their garage, instead of royally fouling up the neighborhood. I mean seriously, if we can't get the government agency which enabled Channelside to exist in the first place to develop in a way which makes the neighborhood better, then how can anyone ask that developers to do so? People had better keep a close eye on this.

The problem is, the port are not professional urban planners, and/or they appear to still have some of their own interest in the back of their head. When in reality, making the district as attractive as possible would benefit them more in the long run.

I just don't see why their comisionners should get to dictate and plan the city's densest (or at least planned to be densest) residential urban neighborhood.

I realize it's their land but still.

The port authority has never claimed to be urban planners. They are trying to maximise money coming into the port. If it made more sense to run a container port, they would. But since Tampa sucks as a container destination, it never developed, so they are trying to squeeze every last penny out of the place. Quite frankly, were lucky they haven't thought of something else that would be worse for the general public but good for the port authority.

I never said the port claimed to be urban planners, but they should be responsible enough to pass along the responsibility of urban planning to the pros.

As far as the port of Tampa being a bad container destination, I don't know where you get that from. The port of Tampa is in the top 10 in volume for the country, primarily for cargo. With some of, if not the best, access to the Panama Canal in the country.

^It's not that great as a container destination, though it will be better as one several years from now, after a few key infrastructure projects have been completed that will affect the port (Panama Canal, CSX hub/track deal, truck connector to I-4/Selmon)... And even after that, the port will still be increasingly hindered by the undersized Sunshine Skyway bridge, and the narrow shipping channel in the bay.

The problem is, the port are not professional urban planners, and/or they appear to still have some of their own interest in the back of their head. When in reality, making the district as attractive as possible would benefit the more in the long run.

It's interesting that you posted this, because I was going to carry on some more about how it seems evident that the port is prioritizing port function over the neighborhood's livability in this instance. The ultimate point was going to be that the port basically lost the ability to put shipping interests ahead of human interests the day people were allowed to move in. The port is going to have to be a lot more intelligent in their planning than this.

Not that I said that you said that they were urban planners, its just that they are acting like any other land owner. They just want to maximise profits. I'd like them to act responsibly too, I just expect them to act like money-grubbing whores. If they could get away with a 600' tall tower that was an industrial waste reprocessor, and make more on it, they would. They might paint it a nice color to appease the public, but they would grab every dollar possible. Its like that stupid abandoned gas station at South Howard and West Azeele, that owner is just sitting on it to maximise profit, damn the urban fabric of the area. Same thing with the Port Authority. From the history of how the port has been run, its obvious they see themselves more as real estate land barons and less as port operators.

Reminder: The developer of the Ybor Channel project said in an e-mail to me 2 weeks ago the hearing for the project is scheduled for the tonight. (March 27th)

What project?

^My bad, the Ybor Channel project. Same developer as Venu.

With the Port Authority? BOCC? TCC? Who is the meeting with?

Nevermind, I see it's on the TCC agenda tonight.

Anyone know what is going on the lot where the Bodega Gardens once was? I parked last night near Victory Lofts ( also recieveing a $30 fine) and notice that the ground looked like it was recently worked on.

haha, I called it... The buildings in the Gibraltar development are now all squatty, boxy, modernist, slabs now, with none of them over 300ft, if that. Previously, they had indicated that there would be something major on the site. I don't remember if the adjective was iconic, or landmark or what, but it was clear that they meant tall, prominent and attractive.

What they showed last night was creative, interesting and very preliminary, but it is also going to be very poorly received by the average Tampanian if it even remotely resembles what they showed last night... ugghh, the biggest building looked like a 300ft X 300ft checkerboard on its side. *throws up a little in mouth* Even through the TV, there were audible grumblings when the renderings were displayed.


Other than that, the siting and landscape design for the project seemed pretty nice (hard to tell on tv, but it looked tip top, and all involved are highly respected), and of course sailed through this preliminary phase with ease. It went so smooth that Linda Saul-Sena didn't even bother trying to get them to throw in a few dozen tiki huts and a free art gallery either. John Dingfelder was kind enough to require a dog park. :)

Is Tampa becoming a city with people!?!?! With Councilpeople who care about us?!?!?!?!?!?
OMG!!

John Dingfelder was kind enough to require a dog park. :)

:bow:

haha, I called it... The buildings in the Gibraltar development are now all squatty, boxy, modernist, slabs now, with none of them over 300ft, if that. Previously, they had indicated that there would be something major on the site. I don't remember if the adjective was iconic, or landmark or what, but it was clear that they meant tall, prominent and attractive.

What they showed last night was creative, interesting and very preliminary, but it is also going to be very poorly received by the average Tampanian if it even remotely resembles what they showed last night... ugghh, the biggest building looked like a 300ft X 300ft checkerboard on its side. *throws up a little in mouth* Even through the TV, there were audible grumblings when the renderings were displayed.


Other than that, the siting and landscape design for the project seemed pretty nice (hard to tell on tv, but it looked tip top, and all involved are highly respected), and of course sailed through this preliminary phase with ease. It went so smooth that Linda Saul-Sena didn't even bother trying to get them to throw in a few dozen tiki huts and a free art gallery either. John Dingfelder was kind enough to require a dog park. :)

Not as boxy as Grand Central I hope......

Its cool that they are focusing a lot on the landscape. And the dog park will be very beneficial to the residents that live in the area.

^Ironic you say that, as I was going to compare it to GC specifically as a baseline (vaguely similar checker pattern on the facade & similarly oppressive, hulking masses)... but I didn't want to ramble too much...

Plus, this is very preliminary, and is being done by a very good firm (Alfonso Architects)... It was a vision look, not even a schematic really. But Mr Alfonso made it clear that his basis of inspiration was Mies van der Rohe's 860-880 and 900-910 LSD projects... So I think it's best to consider me hopeful that we'll get something worth looking at, but I'm not holding my breath.

When will construction actually start?

Say goodbye to Channelside's Pirate Cove Bodega, and hola to Casa Havana.

Never quite "got" that Pirate's Cove concept, and apparently from the empty chairs every time I walked by, neither did anyone else.

So smoke 'em if you got 'em.

http://tampabay.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2008/03/31/daily36.html?jst=b_ln_hl

ACME Sports & Entertainment buys Channelside business
Tampa Bay Business Journal

Pirate Cove Bodega in Channelside has been acquired by ACME Sports & Entertainment.

Financial details of the transaction were not disclosed.

ACME, which is based in Satellite Beach, said it will convert the business into a Casa Havana that will be the flagship location for the company.

The company owns and operates Tabacaleras Cubanas USA in Ybor City and will sell its cigars at Casa Havana.

ACME (OTCBB: ASEN) said in a release it plans to open 10 of the smoke-friendly coffee bars by the end of the year.

Gibraltar Wins Initial Approval
By JANIS D. FROELICH

The Tampa Tribune

Published: April 5, 2008

CHANNEL DISTRICT - To make way for the future, a little bit of the past must go.

That was the situation facing Tampa City Council as it considered voting on the first phase of a massive redevelopment slated for Channelside and Adamo drives.

In the end, the council voted 5-0, with Mary Mulhern and Thomas Scott absent, to give initial approval to Gibraltar Development Corp.'s plans for 1,105 condominiums, 55,000 square feet of retail and 298,000 square feet of office space.

Gibraltar submitted about half of its 22 acres to the council for rezoning. The other half awaits approval from the state because of waterfront issues, as well as council approval. Gibraltar hopes to have the total parcel rezoned in 1

1/2

years.

The project would replace a holdover of the port industry, once the dominant tenant along Ybor Channel before the cruise industry took over. International Ship Repair & Marine Services will relocate before the first of three condominium towers is constructed. At 304 feet, the building would be the smallest tower.

One snag remains before Clearwater-based Gibraltar moves forward.

The company wants to close a portion of 14th Street, south of Adamo, which is used for access to International Ship Repair and dead-ends at a security checkpoint. The request sounded fine to council members until it was underscored with photographs that the block-long portion is made of bricks.

The street closure requires a public hearing, which is set for April 17, the same day as the final vote on the rezoning.

"I really hope the bricks won't be lost," Councilwoman Linda Saul-Sena said at the March 27 hearing.

She suggested the bricks, a part of Tampa's past, be reused on the site or given to another project.

David Gamble, a Boston architect working with Gibraltar, told the council the project would be among the first to develop the northern end of the waterfront. He said the time frame is 15 to 20 years for the three buildings; construction of the first tower would begin in two years.

Councilman John Dingfelder said he is excited about Gibraltar's promise of a 1,000-foot public walkway around the channel, including five parks, one with a new streetcar stop.

Dingfelder suggested a dog park be part of plans to landscape under the Selmon Crosstown Expressway. He also wondered how Channel District residents and the public would gain access to the property.

Local architect Albert Alfonso, who is working with Gibraltar, said there will be three or four ways to reach the 3

1/2

acres of parks, including at the streetcar stop.

"We very much wanted to open up the area," said Alfonso, who described the architecture as warm modernism.

City urban planner Wilson Stair said the project's design is welcoming.

"They wanted it softer and inviting rather than a fortress," he said.

Tom Taylor, president of the Palmetto Beach Community Association, said the parks will be within walking distance of his neighborhood. He said the community supports the project, which is next to the planned site of Ikea, a Swedish furniture store chain.

"The project is far superior to what's there now," he said.

Reporter Janis D. Froelich can be reached at (813) 835-2104 or jfroelich@tampatrib.com.


Find this article at:
http://centraltampa2.tbo.com/content/2008/apr/05/st-gibraltar-wins-initial-approval

Is Saul-Sena seriously complaining about a block of brick road? What they hell is wrong with this lady? Sometimes she argues about some decent stuff, but than she starts complaining about pointless crap that I certainly just shake my head and walk away. It might be history, but I'm pretty sure that everyone willl be damn right okay if Tampa lost a block of brick street.

And holy crap! 2 years until construction starts and 15-20 years for the whole damn thing to be finish? I'll almost be 40 when this is done!!! This is a long damn project. If I didn't know anything about it, I would believe they were building a whole new city.

Atleast it got approved........ :)

So, the 5 "parks" will be done in 20 years, too.

lawl.

That article says the first building would be 304ft and would be the shortest? In the renderings I saw them present to the city, nothing looked like it was over 25 floors.

20 Years???? Well, at least the condo market should be turned around by then.:lol: Over 300 ft for the shortest building is great, but like Jason said that does not jive with what we saw before. And give me a break about the bricks.

Nice project, but I hate the time line. Anything with a time line that far out makes one suspect that half of it will not be built as planned and that they are really just hoping to hang onto the land until the value goes up and the market turns around.

Steve

I own and live here, so still trying to figure out if this is a good thing or not so good ... but, as of today, the signs on the front ground floor windows at Grand Central at Kennedy have been changed to "Marriott Execustay" with the Marriott logo (about 10-12 signs total). Went to the website (www.execustay.com) and it looks like this is a temporary housing brand for corporate relocations and the such ...

Will post when I find out more, but also wanted to see if anyone else out there knew anything.

^ What?!?! Wow, that is interesting. I don't know what to think of that.

That is pretty interesting. Are the signs in place of Grand Central or in addition?

The signs are in place of the old "Sales and Rentals - Grand Central" signs out front (though those signs are still on the building sides, and New Homes America is in the East Building lobby doing sales/rentals).

I'm assuming its just empty condos that are rented out for longer-term corporate people or other relocating. I don't know how they could make just one section of the buildings a "Marriott Execustay" so I'm also assuming its just the condos that are available for rent from the developer.

I'll try to find out more. I don't think this is a bad thing at all ... just went through the Execustay website, and it looks like they're at some nice places in other cities and require at least a 30-day stay. So I think this could be a good addition ...

Not a bad thing in the short term at least.

They should be great tenants a least. The corporate types don't usually trash apartments. And good for local restaurants and what not.

Its better than having an empty building.

Much better than an empty building - We need more people living downtown and in channelside to make it more attractive to retail.. And then the empty units will be more attractive too.

They won't trash the suites, but I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in number of questionable "escort" types around. Not that I hang out with dirtbags or anything, but whenever you get someone with a months separation from their spouse you are asking for trouble. You see it in Tallahassee during the Legislative session, the whole "what happens in Tally, stays in Tally," mentality. Just keep an eye out.

Gibraltar Wins Initial Approval


.....The street closure requires a public hearing, which is set for April 17, the same day as the final vote on the rezoning......

http://centraltampa2.tbo.com/content/2008/apr/05/st-gibraltar-wins-initial-approval

Anyone have an update if they have gone before the council so far tonight?

^It just passed. (and is passing, since there are multiple votes)

Dipshit Councilwoman Mary Mulhern voted Nay.

I wonder about that woman sometimes. I can never figure out why she votes the way she does. Sometimes I think she just likes to be the dissenting vote.

^Lucky for her, we've got real losers like Ronda Storms to remind us what a lousy elected official really looks like. Mary Mulhern isn't bad, she's simply warming a seat.

I've been spending a lot of time in the forum, due to my company slowly dying, but the one thing I can't help but notice is that Channelside in general has the potential to be a really cool neighborhood. The only problem is that it is fairly isolated from downtown. I know its only about a quarter mile from the CBD, but with the combination of the industrial plant (whose name escapes me), the rail corridor, and Meridian, Channelside feels isolated from the rest of what should be considered an all inclusive DT. All the new projects (including The Slade which I thought was going to suck out loud), have created a great urban vibe. Unfortunately its poorly integrated with the rest of the DT area.

Normally I am a pretty strong proponent of the free market, but if there were ever a case for the government to make a business uncomfortable to the point where they would move, getting rid of this industrial plant would be it. Its about 1/4 mile from North/South 11th Street (where the Channelside development really starts), to the Crosstown. this area is largely dead. If you get development on the East side of Meridian you still have a .16 mile dead space to the Crosstown.

Sorry to lament like this but it's like watching your kid halfass something. You know that something great (or at least pretty good) is possible and then He/She just does something half hearted. The reason I am so pissed about it is that with the current market, it'll be years before any fill-in occurs. Add to this it seems that development is pushing further East from Channelside, and not West towards the CBD. It seems that every other part of the city is filling in well. Westshore is booming, S.Tampa in generally steadily gets better. I'm afraid that Channelside is going to take years to burn off the overcapacity that exists, before anything new is even drawn-up.

^ Every time I'm in Channelside I think the same thing: "That ConAgra plant has to go." I predict that as soon as the market makes that property valuable enough, some developer will come along and make ConAgra an offer they can no longer refuse for their land.

Without ConAgra they could connect all the streets which will make Channelside much less isolated. It's really annoying that it's only connected at the top and bottom (nothing between Jackson and Channelside Dr).

^ I wonder whatever happened to the plan to extend Cumberland - which currently dead-ends at Meridian - to the west, along the southern side of the ConAgra site. This would be a start.

The signs are in place of the old "Sales and Rentals - Grand Central" signs out front (though those signs are still on the building sides, and New Homes America is in the East Building lobby doing sales/rentals).

I'm assuming its just empty condos that are rented out for longer-term corporate people or other relocating. I don't know how they could make just one section of the buildings a "Marriott Execustay" so I'm also assuming its just the condos that are available for rent from the developer.

I'll try to find out more. I don't think this is a bad thing at all ... just went through the Execustay website, and it looks like they're at some nice places in other cities and require at least a 30-day stay. So I think this could be a good addition ...

Execustay is NOT cheap for sure(the most expensive of "extended stay" type places)...mostly they will be 6 month to a year long contracts for professionals either on an assignement, relocations. Fully firnished corporate aprtments. I was with Marriott for 12 years in the past, and did a 1 year marketing and sales stint with Execustay by Marriott.

Here's some site plans of the Ybor Channel project in the last two pages of this PDF:

http://www.tamparail.org/uploads/THS02008.pdf

Sounds like ToC is *really* empty. I wonder what the numbers are.

http://www.tampabay.com/features/humaninterest/article473403.ece

Tampa condo is a tower of solitude

Johnny Foens paid $548,200 to get into heaven.

He rode an elevator into the sky, unlocked a door and stepped onto the balcony of his new three-bedroom, three-bathroom condominium.

Behold, to the west, the majesty of a downtown skyline sparkling in the sun. To the south, the posh pulsations of Harbour Island. And you smell that? That salty stretch of Tampa's blue-black bay drifting toward the horizon?

"This is why I bought the place," Johnny says.

At first he had company.

Five hundred people turned out for the groundbreaking in 2005, complete with spotlights, valets and a sand sculpture of the towers-to-be. All 257 units in these two 29-story towers were snatched up in 13 days, before ground was even broken.

But alas, this is Florida, where another boom has busted. Two-thirds of the buyers have backed out. Deals have been shredded, lawsuits filed. The developer sought bankruptcy protection after the fallout.

That left Johnny Foens, who kept his promise and moved into the middle of a city of 318,000 in a county of 1.1-million, in a region of 2.7-million, and found himself living in a tower nearly alone.

Much has been written about the winners and losers in this soured housing market. But if there are bust-time complexities to explore, they are found on the 11th floor of Towers of Channelside, where a man makes his home among scores of empty condos.

Punch the button. Step past the security guard and onto the elevator.

"Hey!" Johnny says, swinging the door open. "Welcome."

Johnny is 39. He wears his hair curly and crisp and sports black-framed glasses, shiny shoes and a button-up shirt, pressed but untucked.

He grew up around here and made his money — good money — in the screened enclosure business. He has three kids; a teenager and two youngsters he sees every other weekend. Their pictures hang in the hallway and their bedrooms are painted with the Disney castle and Pokemon.

Johnny's girlfriend, Amanda Jasin, wearing long blond hair and a red party dress, just turned 22 and studies at the University of South Florida. The two met when Johnny's buddy hired Amanda as a cocktail waitress for a poker party. Johnny kisses her a lot and bought her a stuffed buffalo head for Christmas.

When she's not in school, she stays here, with the buffalo head, high above Tampa.

You can't help but think they'd fit perfectly into the social network of this condo tower, if one existed.

"We'd really like to meet some couples," Amanda says, "but there's nobody here to meet."

That adds a touch of irony to the advertisements showing cute singles poolside, handsome couples snuggling, beautiful people doing beautiful things.

An oasis in the center of the action, says the development Web site. Life at The Towers of Channelside encompasses tropical breezes, flowing waters and the flash of warm smiles. But beware — it's only part of the magic.

• • •

Before Christmas, Johnny stretched a few strands of white lights across his balcony. Most nights it was the only sign of life on the darkened south side of his tower.

"It can get kinda lonely," Johnny says.

There are benefits, besides the view.

You can hopscotch to the trolley station and rock your way to Ybor before your Sierra Nevada gets warm. You can skip to work downtown without soiling your button-up. You can almost spit on Channelside cruise liners from the penthouse.

Even the emptiness is not all bad.

The pool table downstairs is always open.

Johnny and Amanda play kickball with his kids in the common areas when they visit. And the kids ride their scooters down empty hallways, past darkened condominiums, across carpet that doesn't need vacuuming.

No one ever complains.

• • •

"You wanna sneak up to the penthouse?" Johnny asks.

Sure.

He takes off without locking up.

"That's another perk," he says. "You don't have to lock your doors."

He punches the button for the elevator. The doors slide open immediately.

"You never have to wait," he says.

Up he goes, then out of the elevator and up, up, up some stairs. On the top floor, the door to the penthouse is unlocked. Johnny leads the way. He holds Amanda on the balcony and leans against the railing. Those views again.

"Pretty sweet," he says.

These are the benefits.

• • •

On the flip side, there is plenty of idle time when you live alone in a building as large as this.

At Publix, Johnny and Amanda pick up extra sacks of rolls to throw from the balcony. Boredom plus altitude means lookout below.

On Super Bowl Sunday, they emptied a vegetable tray during a can-you-hit-that-with-produce contest.

Another negative: Maintenance is slow. Not long ago, Johnny clogged the garbage chute with pizza boxes, and when no one showed up to fix the problem, he dragged a concrete block five flights up and dropped it in the chute. When that failed, he tried another.

"It just exploded," he says.

The pool isn't heated. Johnny suspects it's because there aren't enough residents to justify the bills. He did figure out how to activate the waterfall, which pours down from Disneyfied bluffs. Still, instead of mingling beauties on lounge chairs and late-night Red Bull-and-vodka parties, the only real action on pool deck is the occasional Realtor networking social. Yay.

Worse than all that are the nuances of life with no neighbors, the things you wouldn't necessarily think about.

Johnny sliced his finger cooking dinner not long ago. He was out of bandages. Perfect time to ask a neighborly favor, if he had neighbors.

Johnny wrapped the gushing wound in plastic wrap until it quit bleeding.

A few weeks ago, Amanda was baking a strawberry pie. She had sugar, strawberries, gelatin. All she needed was 2 tablespoons of cornstarch. She tried to remember where the other people lived. Was the woman with the Pomeranian on the fifth floor?

She knocked. No one answered.

The strawberry pie became the latest casualty of the housing bust.

"If you need, like, one little thing, oh man," she says.

Outside the sliding glass doors to the balcony, Tampa pulses with life. A cruise ship slices toward the port, traffic flows down Channelside Drive, workers spill from buildings for their afternoon commute.

In the middle of it all, a man and woman close the door on their urban oasis, where a decorative stone on a shiny new bookshelf says: "Sing like there's nobody listening."

Its a sad, sad, land we live in with the condo bust. I see tons of recently finished towers and they are all practically empty. Anything that was U/C has for the most part, stalled. There are few exceptions though......

The writing was on the wall ON THIS FORUM with ToC if you ask me. We were talking up Skypoint and Grand Central and other projects and I think we had ONE person come into this forum and say they were buying into ToC and couldn't get a completion date.

I mean, this is factual, the forum is the place to go with regards to high rise projects in the bay area and we have had people interested in buying into projects or who have bought into projects stop by here to chat. But ToC? Nope. Never happened.

From what I have heard, TOC was basically sold out in a matter of days to people "in the know" when originally launched. Mostly real estate insiders who either were in the industry or knew the right people in the industry.

I personally know someone who was going to buy three units and backed out before going to contract (he said he heard and witnessed too much frenzy with people speculating and got spooked).

This is probably the reason why we have what we have today. The general public was largely left out of the presales program. Not to say that people on this board aren't on the inside... but I got the feeling you had to practically be a friend of the developers to get in (or know someone who was).

I lost my taste for buying anything down there not long after Art Center Lofts and those lofts on 12th got built... Channelside 212?... After that, all projects were quickly run by out of town developers here preying on buyers for high margins. I had zero interest in spending my money on their high profit margin, not the 'value' of the home... it's the same as with anyone dumb enough to have bought into a rental/condo conversion... that was a joke from day one... Just a money transferring machine. buyer takes on debt, developer doing the flipping gets cash in hand today, free and clear. what a joke... this is why condo conversion units are now being whored out for as much as 1/2 of the selling price from 2 years ago...

This isn't clothing going out of style, this is HOUSING. A staple of the economy and our society... Well, developers suckered buyers and made their billions, and now homeowners are the ones left holding the bag... I wasn't that dumb. I stayed in my townhouse, whose value has barely depreciated. I'll probably sell later this year and buy TWO places now with the money that would have only gotten me the DP on one place before... lolololol

Buy low, sell high... Not the other way around jackasses... Yeah, you can definitely tell that people in Tampa are poorly educated.


[edited for clarification]

Jason is right that all these speculators who tried to make a quick buck off HOUSING deserve what they get. Unfortunately, everyone gets to live with the results for many, many years to come. It'll take at least five years to sell off all the existing over capacity in condos. Element hasn't even come online yet, and I wouldn't be surprised if it went luxury rentals. Channelside will eventually recover, but imagine being a 60 year old retired business owner from the Midwest. You want to retire to a condo in Florida. What is going to be your first choice factoring in its FLORIDA and being that you were a small-medium business owner and you are somewhat risk averse? You'll probably go for the Beaches first. If you have more urban desires (good food, things to do, etc.), you go for Tampa. Now knowing that public transit sucks in Tampa and most likely will for the next decade or so, you'll have a car or two (say a Z4 and a 7series). Now you can choose Channelside which is mostly small condos marketed to much younger, much less wellheeled clientel. Or you can do what every other retiree with money who moves to Tampa does, he/she/they buy on Bayshore or Harbour Island. The TOC have a very tough road to hoe coming out of this. I don't envy those who actually closed, because they will be maintaining those towers by themselves.

We mentioned Element, but should we give Novare the props they deserve for not letting speculators buy entire floors like they tried to during the pre-construction sales?

I think when Element was still in pre-con, they figured that things were going in the toilet and that they should keep their options open. They had that 8-12 months after GCK and ThePlace were already underway. I'm not positive of the timeline, but that seems reasonable. They are now in the position, depending on sales (stagnant), that they could shift large portions (entire floors) to luxury rentals. They could offer their committed buyers options to shift to different floors if say they had one guy on one entire floor, they could offer incentives to get him on another "owners" floor while keeping a large portion for the rental business. It makes sense. Rentals are slow and steady relatively low profits for say five years and then dump try and sell again. Unfortunately GCK and ThePlace, got in at the perfectly wrong time and are getting their ass handed to them. They can't take a large portion and go rental, because they have owners spread helter skelter throughout the buildings. Sucks for them but Novaire should be complimented on not being stupid.

^I always kind of figured it had more to do with their own investors' agreements. That is, I figured that they couldn't sell units in Element, so long as 'X' percentage was available for sale in Skypoint... But they had more investors lined up before Skypoint was sold out, so build Element anyways while you've got the money to do so, and worry about filling it later. Or that's my guess. I have no idea what the fact of the matter is.



perhaps they figured Element goes up and is sold out withing 6-12 months, because the market would be better and could absorb the units... Not quite going to be the case though, it seems... The housing is coming, the people are coming, but the jobs to support the people actually living in the housing hasn't materialized... Shockingly, the 'trickle-down' part of the Bush plan has never occurred. (both Bushes)

^^
And yet Bush continues to say that we're not in a recession. I absolutely disagree. This economy has gone so much down the drain that we are definitely inching closer to a recession. And frankly, I have a real bad feeling that his "economic stimulus plan" will backfire.

As for the fate of Channelside, I believe that in about 4 to 6 years from now, the area will begin to rebound. But in my opinion, it will be at least 3 to 5 years for the rebound to begin happening.

Meh, it is not just Bush saying that we are not in a recession, a lot of people want to believe that. I for one am not one of them. The stimulus package will help about as much as the last one did; most will save or pay off credt card debt, some will spend it on consumer goods, and it will help some (maybe shorten it about a month or two) with the recession but recessions are inevitable anyway so you just have to ride it out.

Steve

with the recession but recessions are inevitable anyway so you just have to ride it out.

sadly, this is the reality of things...

we will see how things are 5 to 6 years from now...hopefully it will be better.

Regarding the ToC, anyone go to the last Urban Tour of Homes a few weeks ago...I toured ToC, and although the balcony views were breath taking and large, and the pool area was one of the best i have seen(resort like), Im not sure the rest of the twoers warrants such steep pricing in the 370k+ arena. The public and common areas were very drab and plain, and there is no fitness center. Compared to Skypoint ameneities, which are priced far less than ToC, I could never see spending the amount being asked at ToC.

I looked at units in TOC for fun about 2 or 3 months ago. It is about 1/3 full. It is not nearly as bad as the St. Petersburg Times article makes it out to be. TOC is a really great development. The pool and bar are fantastic. I think in the long run, that location by the water and right across from the channelside retail will outperform SkyPoint and Element.

Channelside will become the hot neighborhood once the demand catches up to the supply in the condo market.

^I agree with all of that... But on the last part for different reasons... I think that Channelside will kick ass once housing prices are in line with what interested buyers can afford to pay. if developers do not offer supply which meets demand, then that supply will sit idle and depreciate until it does, as is occurring now.


Because of horrific planning in exurban markets and skyrocketing energy prices, there is more pent up demand for urban living right now, today, than ever before in this region. The problem is that there is a serious disconnect between the price buyers can afford to pay, and the profits that developers hope to make. Developers heretofore have used a fatally flawed business plan, which counted on luring buyers with an annual income that simply isn't realistic in this market. And to top it off, government did NOTHING to step in and bring things back to reality, which is why the problem is as bad as it is now.

^And to top it off, government did NOTHING to step in and bring things back to reality, which is why the problem is as bad as it is now.

Are you suggesting that it's government's role to set real estate prices?

^I agree with all of that... But on the last part for different reasons... I think that Channelside will kick ass once housing prices are in line with what interested buyers can afford to pay. if developers do not offer supply which meets demand, then that supply will sit idle and depreciate until it does, as is occurring now.


Because of horrific planning in exurban markets and skyrocketing energy prices, there is more pent up demand for urban living right now, today, than ever before in this region. The problem is that there is a serious disconnect between the price buyers can afford to pay, and the profits that developers hope to make. Developers heretofore have used a fatally flawed business plan, which counted on luring buyers with an annual income that simply isn't realistic in this market. And to top it off, government did NOTHING to step in and bring things back to reality, which is why the problem is as bad as it is now.I agree Channelside/Ybor area will kick ass, but Channelside major problem will be price adjustment. Some of you may not agree, but I think in the next few years the price will be half of what they are now. People are out of their mind to have paid 300 Sg Ft for an apartment. I see a steady decline and until we hit 175/200 Sg ft, they will continue to sit.

Some developers and owners are going to lose a lot of money, but the prices were set to high to begin with. Thanks to mostly real estate professionals and private investors. It may take 10 year for this to get on track, just depends on how fast/willing people will sell these apartment for a reasonable price.

No. It's government's responsibility to regulate markets (or at least try), not control them or manipulate them. This is the United States, not Zimbabwe, or Russia in the early 90's.

Just one quick comment on Recession - though it may be out of place now. The definition of Recession says that there has to be certain economic losses for X straight quarters before one can be declared.

I think it's bullshit, but thats the definition. Businesses, citizens - they are tightening their belts... There is economic growth but it's at the top, which hasn't helped those in the middle ro bottom one piece.

Recession is defined as a period of general economic decline; specifically, a decline in GDP for two or more consecutive quarters. The days of $3.00 gas are over, folks - think more like $5.00+... We're at a crossroads where the world's global energy needs are concerned. We're either going "green" or waaaaaay brown!

Back on topic... I still believe that the channelside district will rebound nicely; and those who do, or will eventually call the area home will be very satisfied. If our representatives take it seriously enough, serious public transportation options will already be in place before the turnaround. :)

No. It's government's responsibility to regulate markets (or at least try), not control them or manipulate them. This is the United States, not Zimbabwe, or Russia in the early 90's.

Jason-


I disagree with you on this one. I don’t believe the government has the authority to regulate a housing market and even if it did, not sure how they could really go about doing so. Who could have stop this from crashing down and demanding a steady and realistic growth would have been the banks. They should have worked with appraisers and real estate professionals to keep things from getting out of control. What happen was pure greed and as the old saying goes “easy come and easy go” bank made a fortune on new homes, refi, second and third moorages, now it’s time to pay the piper

Recession is defined as a period of general economic decline; specifically, a decline in GDP for two or more consecutive quarters. The days of $3.00 gas are over, folks - think more like $5.00+... We're at a crossroads where the world's global energy needs are concerned. We're either going "green" or waaaaaay brown!

Back on topic... I still believe that the channelside district will rebound nicely; and those who do, or will eventually call the area home will be very satisfied. If our representatives take it seriously enough, serious public transportation options will already be in place before the turnaround. :)

I agree gas WILL be 5-6 dollars a gallon period! Remember there is ALWAYS good news with the bad. People will find it cheaper to live DT instead of living in the suburbs.

Just like the city of Tampa, the United States needs some real leadership, but unfortunately the 3 ding dongs we have to choose from will not be what we need to truly move into the new millennium. Very sad indeed

It's the government's job to prevent rampid specualtion on things like real property, especially if it is all driven from money that is not local. Local governments let the state of Florida down. Some areas are worse than others. Look at central florida and miami.

It's the government's job to prevent rampid specualtion on things like real property, especially if it is all driven from money that is not local. Local governments let the state of Florida down. Some areas are worse than others. Look at central florida and miami.

Excuse me? Local governments are to blame first and foremost? After the state has done all they could to deregulate and steal power from local governments?

The state government is retarded at best and has been for quite some time. It's an ideological playground where wedge issues are more important than fiscal responsibility and social responsibility. "Social responsibility" is not banning truck nutz, it's not banning low riding pants, it's not trying to benefit the billboard industry or the NRA. It's actually helping the citizens.

They have failed time and time again. Unchecked growth and a pro-development platform, lax regulations, pro-corporate agendas. And it's the local governments fault? It's the local goverment's fault that education has been getting less and less income for decades now? Is it the local government's fault that there is such a strict anti-tax stance in Tallahassee to make up for budget shortfalls (that were in place while Jeb Bush was still governor but miraculously were covered by federal handouts and new math) falls on their shoulders and forces said local governments to slash back community services in order to make up for the lack of income?

Local urban planning is not the job of people in Tally. The taxing structure is all local. The people who screwed us are all local (with exception to Storms who is now in Tally) The problem is that the local government did nothing while developers were whoring out property to the highest bidders (mostly out of state non-residents) all the while making housing costs far exceed what the median income of the region could realistically afford. Sure it's simplified. Sure the lenders are to blame as well for giving out risky loans to people, but at the end of the day the local government actually encouraged the behavior.

You both have good points, but I'd have to submit that several groups have to share the blame:

Local governments for maintaining a develop-at-all-costs posture in the interest of building their tax base; and for failing to roll back millage rates as market values spiked so that they could realize a windfall in ad valorem taxes. School boards are included in this group.

State government for failing to reign in the rampant development which created sprawl and a severe over-supply of residential units in many areas of the state, especially Florida; and for failing to force local governments (many of whom still do not really understand how the ad valorem tax system works) to roll back property taxes, instead offering up bandaids that onl;y complicate the system and will require us to revisit this whole issue again in 10 to 15 years. Don't forget, Amendment 10 (the Save Our Homes amendment) passed in 1992.

The federal government for failing to regulate mortgage companies pushing adjustable rate, interest-only and other insane mortgage practices to speculative buyers (that have traditionally required a higher degree of care) that obviously lead to financial ruin when they proliferate; and for allowing lenders to increase the proportion and amount of mortgages to borrowers that don't qualify or are marginal. The federal government should have been more proactive at taking care to prevent another S&L crisis, but wanted to allow the real estate spike to serve as an economic catalyst when we all know the government has little to do with the ebbs and flows of the economy. The fed is included in this because they artificially held down the fed rate at a 40 year low to fire up the economy, risking inflation, and the overall health of the US market system.

Just my $.02 worth...

How about the people who took out the loans to buy overvalued property without the means to pay

^Uhh, and where were they supposed to buy? Not everyone can commute from N Dakota or Detroit for cheap housing.

I think he means the people who played "investor" and were planning on flipping the property that they had no hope to pay for. Many got burned and they have no one to blame but themselves. Example, Towers of Channelside.

I mean anyone that bought a house they could not afford thinking that they could refinance or pay for it out of magic. . . You can always rent or buy a smaller place. I have a hard time simply blaming the government for people's financial mistakes.

ie., two school teachers should not be buying a $400K house on an adjustable rate mortgage unless they have a lot of other income.

I mean anyone that bought a house they could not afford thinking that they could refinance or pay for it out of magic. . . You can always rent or buy a smaller place. I have a hard time simply blaming the government for people's financial mistakes.

ie., two school teachers should not be buying a $400K house on an adjustable rate mortgage unless they have a lot of other income.

Heck, neither could 2 corporate monkey IT workers, or 2 nurses, or 2 police officers/pubic servants.

I do not feel sorry for anyone who bought a house they knew they couldn't afford. I have a friend who bought a house worth $500,000 on a combined income of $100,000. He did 0% down with an ARM. He just lost his house. I don't think the government should do any type of bail out whatsoever. It is not the governments job to bail people out of their mortgages.

^That's not what I'm talking about either. Those people should take the bath they set themselves up for... I was referring more to the bottom end of the market, who didn't really have much choice but to get stuck paying the higher prices that low interest rates created, yet they were typically stuck still paying high rates with tough terms that they didn't understand. They get stuck living on the edge, because the market above them took everything along for the ride.

Naturally, the lower end of the market was the first to be raided by builders looking to buy cheap, rezone, build bigger and make a ton of money. Lax government oversight ensured that they could get approval and build just about build whatever they wanted, wherever they wanted. Leaders sat on their asses throughout the whole thing, knowing full well what was occurring, because they were the ones signing off on the rezonings and permits to allow it to occur. And yet they did nothing, and wonder now why our community has been rocked by a capsized housing market. Not like it is solely the fault of govt leaders (it's the Fed's fault more than anyone else's imo), but they and only they had the power to do anything about it, and they did nothing.

^ I think the lower rates are actually the cause of the current problem. I have a feeling our lower rates now could produce something similar. There are some people out there who were just too ignorant of what they were getting themselves into. For them, I still do not think any assistance should be provided unless it can be proven that the mortgage company/builder misrepresented the facts or terms of the loan.

The weak US dollar and the poor performance of the stock market led to a boom in foreign speculation which drove up the real estate market.

But ultimately it is the fault of the banks and mortgage lenders who were recklessly trying to sell huge variable interest loans to anyone with a pulse. Certainly the buyers themselves share in the blame as well. However individual loss pales in comparison to the loss that the banking industry has incurred.

Had the banks had any standards at all to determine who was eligible and for how much this would have never happened.

Unfortunately a lot of good banks that didn't make any bad loans are being hurt because they bought mortgage backed securities.

^same difference. If your money ultimately goes to mortgages, you're invested in mortgages obviously. Why was something so obviously true so hard to figure out for these dum dum banks? Are we seriously to believe that they didn't know what they were buying?

No, of course they knew what they were buying.

I haven't seen it reported by the news yet, but I heard from a colleague that Ventana is now in the process of bankruptcy. Apparently, their lender has already filed to foreclose on their mortgage and the bankruptcy is pending.

My thoughts have always been that Ventana was a great building, with sucky views though. In the right location (with good views), Ventana would have been a gold-mine.

Yet another victim of the housing/condo slump...

I haven't seen it reported by the news yet, but I heard from a colleague that Ventana is now in the process of bankruptcy. Apparently, their lender has already filed to foreclose on their mortgage and the bankruptcy is pending.

My thoughts have always been that Ventana was a great building, with sucky views though. In the right location (with good views), Ventana would have been a gold-mine.

It's a fairly small building compared to its neighbors (84 units), I wonder how many went unsold. There are a lot up for sale on the MLS, but it's hard to see if they are developer owned.

I was driving by last night and there were 4 lights on in the entire building. Either people just weren't home or nobody lives there.

That's surprising, because my dad has a friend that bought a unit right as it opened and said that he loved the units there than the ones at Grand Central.

Don't know what could be the reason for the poor sales, maybe bad advertising?

Don't know what could be the reason for the poor sales, maybe bad advertising?



^From what I saw, Ventana had more billboard advertisements and such then any other of the projects. Its sales center was more visible too: in the Channelside Entertainment complex.

I saw a sign, today, on the side of the parking garage at the Towers of Channelside that had the following website: http://www.ajachannelside.com

Does anyone know what it's all about?

I saw a sign, today, on the side of the parking garage at the Towers of Channelside that had the following website: http://www.ajachannelside.com

Does anyone know what it's all about?

It's a lounge / restaurant that is opening soon.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=15103512&postcount=949

Friday, May 30, 2008

Window on the housing slide: Channelside's Ventana project back to the bank

Project resists bankruptcy for a different tack

Tampa Bay Business Journal - by Michael Hinman Staff Writer

MICHAEL HINMAN

TAMPA -- As two of its neighbors reorganize through bankruptcy court, Ventana Tampa LLC decided to take a different route. It's handing the keys of Ventana, its 84-unit condominium complex on Kennedy Boulevard and Channelside Drive, back to the bank.

In an agreement filed with the Hillsborough County Circuit Court May 21, Ventana Tampa, Channelside Building Inc., as well as William E. Ware and Sarah Edington, agreed to give the project to Mercantile Bank for $16.8 million still owed and the repayment of $500,000 over a three-year period.

At the same time, the court appointed Douglas P. Wilson of Douglas Wilson Cos. in San Diego receiver, giving him immediate control of the property as a manager and operator.

Not taking the bankruptcy route
Neither Ronald B. Cohn of Arnstein & Lehr LLP of Tampa, an attorney representing Mercantile, nor Alberto F. Gomez of Morse & Gomez PA of Tampa, who represented the defendants, returned phone calls seeking comment.

http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2008/06/02/story3.html

mhinman@bizjournals.com | 813.342.2477

Ventana Condos Soon To Have Bank As Owner
By SHANNON BEHNKEN
The Tampa Tribune
Published: June 4, 2008

TAMPA - Facing foreclosure, the developers of the Ventana condominiums in the Channel District have agreed to hand the keys to the project's lender and walk way, according to documents filed in Hillsborough County Circuit Court.

Ventana, completed early last year, has 85 units, but the developer has sold only 41 units, county property records show. None of the six retail condominiums have sold.

Ventana Tampa LLC, a company run by local developer Bill Ware, agreed to turn the building over to Mercantile Bank, according to a partial mortgage release filed in county court May 28. Ventana is at Kennedy Boulevard and Channelside Drive.

Court records show that Mercantile loaned the developer $31.8 million to build the condominiums. The lender filed a notice to foreclose in March.

Ware did not return a call Tuesday for comment.

The developer of Ventana sold 38 units in 2007 for a median sales price of $455,000 and three units in 2008 for a median price of $480,000, county records show.

Ventana is not the only Tampa condominium that is struggling. Three others in the Channel District have filed for bankruptcy reorganization this year. They include:

•Towers of Channelside LLC, the builder of Towers of Channelside, filed for bankruptcy protection in January after Wachovia cut off the company's credit.

•Key Developers, the developers of The Place at Channelside, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in March.

•Tampa Condo 2 LLC, the developers of the proposed 472-unit Tampa Condo II, filed to reorganize under bankruptcy in March. The company is a subsidiary of Daytona Beach-based Amon Investments LLC.

The developers of these projects have something else in common: weak sales. The developers have said buyers signed contracts to purchase before the buildings were constructed but some didn't follow through after the real estate market softened.

Reporter Shannon Behnken can be reached at (813) 259-7804 or sbehnken@tampatrib.com.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/jun/04/bz-ventana-condos-soon-to-have-bank-as-owner/?news-money

^ Ouch. There are going to be some really good deals though, the bank isn't going to want to screw around.

The Tampa Port Authority has plans to build a new parking garage next to the current structure in the Channelside District.

But several members of the Tampa City Council tried to persuade the Authority today to allow retail shops to be located on the first floor of the structure to create a more vibrant area directly across the street from a current row of shops.

Charlie Clue is with the Tampa Port Authority; he says Tampa is now the seventh largest cruise port in the country.

Councilman John Dingfelder said he was aware that some businesses in Channelside have struggled, but said it would be ideal for the port to raise revenue by allowing for shops to built on the first floor of the garage, instead of dedicating that to parking.

The proposed width of the sidewalk outside the garage is currently designed to be 5 feet long. Councilwoman Linda Saul Sena said the sidewalk should be at least three times that, with shade and a place for for benches, carts, maybe a café. Clue was non-committal on the request.

Councilwoman Mary Mulhern said it would seem to be in the best interest in of the port in the future to create more walkable retail presence in Channelside.

Councilman Charlie Miranda appeared to endorse the parking garage, saying other parts of town would relish having such a structure.

City Council members said they would encourage the Tampa Port Authority to review their concerns.

I agree with the need for retail on the first level and the pedestrian friendly sidewalk enhancements, especially in that area.

Source: http://www.wmnf.org/news_stories/5694

I agree with the council.

Mulhern hit the nail on the head with this line:

Councilwoman Mary Mulhern said it would seem to be in the best interest in of the port in the future to create more walkable retail presence in Channelside.

Councilman Charlie Miranda appeared to endorse the parking garage, saying other parts of town would relish having such a structure.

And Miranda needs to realize that people would appreciate the garage even MORE (you know, going the extra step for once) by putting retail in the base, and that the port has the responsilty (and as Mulhern said and as I said a while back on this topic) and desire to do what is in the best interest as well of the district and city's future.

Great to hear that the Coucil has realized that retail on the first floor would be good for the Port and City. I believe most of us here said the same thing when we heard that the Port will be building a new garage. The only thing I worry about is the fact that we already have empty retail spaces down Channelside Drive. I don't know if really opening more spaces for retail and eateries would be the right choose. It might work out and I'll be proven wrong, but it just seems pointless altogether.

A 5 foot sidewalk?!

Whoa, how is that even code? Where are we? In the First World?!

I don't know if really opening more spaces for retail and eateries would be the right choose. It might work out and I'll be proven wrong, but it just seems pointless altogether.

You're interested in city planning, right? I mean, you post here.

You do understand the definition of planning - to plan ahead. It won't always be so - and it sure as hell is gonna take longer with a 5 food sidewalk in front of a stacked parking lot. :bash:

Foresight?!

You're interested in city planning, right? I mean, you post here.

You do understand the definition of planning - to plan ahead. It won't always be so - and it sure as hell is gonna take longer with a 5 food sidewalk in front of a stacked parking lot. :bash:

Foresight?!
You're totally right and I can't argue there. Sooner or later, the sidewalks will need to be upgraded to keep up with the City. And being in Boy Scouts and the Scout Motto being "Be Prepared", I understand the importance of being prepared. I was mainly critizing the fact that we have a vast area of vacant retail spaces in Channelside and the city wants more. But down the road, when we're 20 years older, we'll wonder why the City was stupid enough to not put retail there.

I would love to see 2 big restuarants there. Or even a club and restuarant.

I would love to not see a parking garage in such a prime spot. Why not stack on the existing garage (assuming it's engineered to handle the load - last time I was there, I checked and thought it was) or - god forbid - wait until the market truly demands parking and build something with units (office, residential, WHATEVER) wrapping at least part of the facade? Oh, to dream of doing what is common practice in every other city.

I think the policy that the City goes with is the "Jump ship and make it quick" policy. They seem to head towards the right direction, but we come to realize that they got lost somewhere near the torn of Insanity.

Certainly there is other lots around Channelside that can handle a parking garage. It's just moronic to place a garage where the City wants it to be built. And it's not like it will make people walk far, we have a damn trolley system. It just seems when it comes to the City, they half @ss it and we regret it down the road. Great we will be getting a parking garage, which the city needs, but give it 2-3 years from now and the City will be slapping themselves in the back of the head asking why they didn't build a larger one.

or - god forbid - wait until the market truly demands parking and build something with units

I believe the market will need parking because a surface lot is going away. Isn't that what started this whole thing?

After reading the article about the proposed garage (several times) I still can't figure out exactly where they are talking about when they say "next to the existing structure in the Channel district". Looking at Google Earth there doesn't appear to be anywhere (that the Port Authority or the city already owns) with the space for a garage that is "next to the existing structure". I'm not sure if they are talking about land across Channelside drive which is currently a surface lot parking for the Aquarium.

After reading the article about the proposed garage (several times) I still can't figure out exactly where they are talking about when they say "next to the existing structure in the Channel district". Looking at Google Earth there doesn't appear to be anywhere (that the Port Authority or the city already owns) with the space for a garage that is "next to the existing structure". I'm not sure if they are talking about land across Channelside drive which is currently a surface lot parking for the Aquarium.
We have always speculated that some how they'll build the garage between TofC and Channelside Plaza. But as I think about more and more, I believe the lot they are talking about is a lot west of the garage and north of TofC, where I have seen the site cleared and numerously "cleaned up" in the past 6 months.

^No, that is the Seaboard Square site, where a hotel is reportedly going to break ground any day now.


The surface lot due west of the shops (on the south side of C-Drive) is being razed to make way for the Byrd Corp's rental /retail twin tower project.

The sliver of land, and private ROW due west of the Port Authority garage (due south of Towers at Channelside, which doesn't abut C-Drive. The subject property does)

Basically the garage is proposed where that little green space is, with the ornamental art that says 'Channelside' on it. This includes the curving road and sliver of parking there as well, both of which will go bye bye.

^No, that is the Seaboard Square site, where a hotel is reportedly going to break ground any day now.


The surface lot due west of the shops (on the south side of C-Drive) is being razed to make way for the Byrd Corp's rental /retail twin tower project.

The sliver of land, and private ROW due west of the Port Authority garage (due south of Towers at Channelside, which doesn't abut C-Drive. The subject property does)

Basically the garage is proposed where that little green space is, with the ornamental art that says 'Channelside' on it. This includes the curving road and sliver of parking there as well, both of which will go bye bye.
Oh no, not that, I know where Seaboard Squard. In this case, the lot I mean is the one between SS and the Channelside Garage.

^What lot would that be?

^What lot would that be?
The one between where Seaboard will go and the parking garage. Sorry, I would be more specific, but I dont have a map to use on my iTouch. I know there's a vacant warehouse on the site, but it can come down quickly before August.

The lot that the Tampa Port Authority owns is indeed directly S of ToC. There's a small parking lot and some green space (with the art that Jason mentioned). It would be directly across from the Channelside mall.

And on a related note, I used the existing garage there last night and the new coin pay system is absolutely an abomination. I don't know how I could make it work more inefficiently.

^I've had to double pay twice now... At this point, I categorically don't park there anymore. I use valet, and tell absolutely everybody I know to avoid that garage at all costs.

The first time they ripped me off, the bottom feeding clerks they have running the place lied to me about how the system works, and demanded that I had to pay BEFORE I even left the garage to go do my thing. They work there, not me, so I heeded their warning about the new coin system... Then when I tried to leave with my 'paid' coin several hours later when I was done for the night, I found out that no, once you pay, you only have 10 minutes to get out. So, I had to pay twice for a single use of the facility.

Which leads to the 2nd time I had to double pay... I almost always park on the roof, cuz my daughter loves to see the sights (she's 3)... So, I come back to the garage, pay, wait for the elevator, get upstairs, got in the car immediately, and started driving down. Well, on saturdays the place is packed and people are wandering all over the place lugging suitcases for their cruise. By the time I got down to the gate, time was of course up... I REFUSED to double pay again, and thus had to wait for 20 minutes for some fat ass manager to mosy on over from his smoke break and argue with me for 5 more minutes about why it took so long for me to use their shitty garage (mind you, I couldn't move my car from the gate. I sat there blocked in until fat boy showed up and let me leave)... Not surprisingly, the more I argued with him, the more people overheard me bitching about the pay system and started gathering around, trying to interject their own issues with the shitty parking system into the discussion.

He FINALLY let me leave only after I calmly asked him since he was in fact holding my daughter and myself against our wills over a bill I already paid, if I needed to call the police and report that we were being falsely imprisoned? Suddenly, he had no problem letting me leave... lol... Instead of thanking him (why would I?), I instead reminded everyone within earshot that the valet parking across the street was only a dollar more.

Ok this bugs me. It seems Americans in general seem to have a hell of time figuring out any type of parking meter that doesn't involve inserting coins and twisting a knob. No matter where I go, people can't figure anything out. Its not like you are risking a huge amount of cash or risk electrocuting someone. Its just a machine that works on reading a metered card or needs your input as to shich space you want and for how much time. We went to the Georgia Aquarium the other week and there was "Joe S**t the Rag Man" standing right next to the machines to help people figure out how to use it. The instruction are printed on the machine in English (large type even) and they still needed to post a guy there to assist people. Every machine I have ever used works on a simple principle, insert money/credit card, take enter space number and get slip. I mean, come on people, they aren't that hard.

The only places I have ever been where people seem to be able to figure these things out are DC (but those people are very type-A in general and will yell at you for not standing on the right and walking on the left) and at Atlantic Station in Atlanta.

Oh no, not that, I know where Seaboard Squard. In this case, the lot I mean is the one between SS and the Channelside Garage.
No, you're incorrect.

Dude, you do remember that I worked in land surveying, doing exactly this kind of research for the past 3 years, right? When I state something like that, it's not a 'guess'.

Every machine I have ever used works on a simple principle, insert money/credit card, take enter space number and get slip. I mean, come on people, they aren't that hard.

hahahahaha, oh believe me we all WISH we had a normal, logical, easy-to-use system like that here... But we don't.

The system here is quite clearly made with one thing in mind; higher profits. Ease of use, efficient cycling through of old and new users, and happy customers are clearly not the least bit of a concern there.

People can park there all they want, but I won't ever park there ever again, so long as they have the same rip-off system and same asshole managers there. If that means I don't go to Channelside as often, then that's their loss, not mine.

Ok this bugs me. It seems Americans in general seem to have a hell of time figuring out any type of parking meter that doesn't involve inserting coins and twisting a knob.

To those that haven't used the new system, it's definitely a cluster. It's not like the choose a space machines, so save your bitching about Americans. The general idea is:


You pull in and get a plastic chip that weighs about as much as a paperclip and is about the size of a quarter. Park in any empty space. Take the "coin" with you. Don't lose this coin or you'll have to pay for a full day.
Some businesses in Channelside will validate your coin for you, that involves placing it on a little device and waiting for a light on the device to change colors. The coin appearance doesn't change, it's just a plastic chip with an RFID.
On your way back to the garage, you have to pay down stairs in automated machines that also have several employees monitoring (there go the automated cost savings!). The machines aren't overly fast, definitely no quicker than the old check out lanes.
After you pay, either via cash or credit, you get another coin that looks identical to the first. Don't lose this coin or you'll have to pay for a full day.
To exit the garage you need to insert this second coin, and as Jason said if you took too long in the garage it won't let you out and you'll have to re-pay. This is the second time you have to stop and do something to get out of the garage, any time savings by using the machine is now wiped out because you still have to wait for everyone in front of you to stop and insert their coin.

All this for 50 cents so I could see a movie. It's insane. I can figure it out just fine, it's just a system designed to fail because failures create more revenue. Some flashy consultants came into down with a spreadsheet and convinced some bureaucrat at the Port Authority that if they spent tons of money on this system they could look like they had their shit together. It will look good when they are up for a promotion in five years. The presentation probably hit on a promise of increased efficiencies and how re-using plastic RFID tags is green because that's what they wanted to hear. Not because it's true. It's a scam. If they really wanted to speed things up they could have integrated in with SunPass like the airport is doing.

Update: The system is called ChipCoin and apparently this is the first install in Florida and one of the first in the country. Hopefully it doesn't catch on.

in agree jonknee. that coin thing at channelside was a pain in ass

granted i know what to do now, but what a headache

I went there and used the new coin system when it was first installed back in maybe Feb. or March. I didn't have a problem with it, but it wasn't crowded. The question did cross my mind however that once I paid how long did I have to get out. There wasn't any notice that said 10 minutes. They had a bunch of people monitoring it and at the time I figured it was just to get the bugs worked out. I haven't been back since then (not because of the parking) but it sounds ridiculous that they still have people monitoring the 'automated' system. What's the point?

But the instructions are in english right? It seems it only adds the extra step with the second coin. Most automated systems I've seen (GA Aquarium and Atlantic Station) give you a card (cardboard with mag stripe) at entry. You then park, take the card with you, enjoy what ever you are doing, when done go to paystation, pay with cash or credit, card gets validated, take card, get in car, use the same card to get out of garage. Maybe it has a time limit to leave too, but then again, when I leave someplace, I leave. I don't habitually hang out in parking garages. So really the only difference is one extra step with the second coin, which I'll admit is unusual. But really what is the difference between a 1 gram coin and a 1 gram card? Be thankful that you can have the coin validated too, I'm never seen that.

But the instructions are in english right? It seems it only adds the extra step with the second coin. Most automated systems I've seen (GA Aquarium and Atlantic Station) give you a card (cardboard with mag stripe) at entry. You then park, take the card with you, enjoy what ever you are doing, when done go to paystation, pay with cash or credit, card gets validated, take card, get in car, use the same card to get out of garage. Maybe it has a time limit to leave too, but then again, when I leave someplace, I leave. I don't habitually hang out in parking garages. So really the only difference is one extra step with the second coin, which I'll admit is unusual. But really what is the difference between a 1 gram coin and a 1 gram card? Be thankful that you can have the coin validated too, I'm never seen that.

The pain isn't directions it's that they purposely make it really easy to screw up and have to either pay twice or pay the full day rate. The coin is *really* easy to lose, it weighs nothing so you won't feel it drop out of your pocket. The mag stripe cards were standard ISO-7810 ID-1 which makes it easy to keep with your ID or any credit cards.

Compare to the automated garage at Grand Central, pull in and get the ticket, leave it on your dash, on your way out insert ticket and pay. You won't lose it, you only have to stop at one machine and it's truly automated. This "automated" system involves 3 or 4 staffers, as many as they had when it wasn't automated.

If it isn't broken, don't fix it. They literally ripped out a standard functional solution for this one that is only supported by a single vendor and offers no obvious advantage. I'd love to know what they spent on the system.

Update: Another disadvantage from the city's point of view is this system will almost certainly significantly increase the percentage of credit card payments. Credit cards are an especially poor way to do small dollar transactions and a large percentage of the revenue will be paid to Visa/MC instead of the Port Authority. If they ever release the figures it's going to be a good chuckle.

No, you're incorrect.

Dude, you do remember that I worked in land surveying, doing exactly this kind of research for the past 3 years, right? When I state something like that, it's not a 'guess'.
I never said you wre wrong so calm the hell down.

All I said was that the lot you weren't talking about wasn't the lot I was refering to that I believed this would be going. I never said I was right and I never said you were wrong. So to jump up and throw your hands in the air to prove your point that worked as a land surveyer didn't impress me nor make a point.

I never carry cash so I'm just as likely to charge $1.00 as $500.00. CheckCard that is. I've just never had a problem with any of the systems. It just amazes me everytime we go to Atlantic Station there is at least one family standing in front of the validating machine scratching their heads. It reminds me of tha scene from Zoolander where Derek and Hansel are trying to get the information from the computer.

Ok folks...


Here's to hoping the new garage presently proposed does not include this system, and is redesigned to include design features which will actually interact with the surroundings.

A few weeks back a friend of mine dropped the coin in between the seats of the car we were in and had to pay double. Yes it was his fault, but having some magic coin be your way out is an absolutley ridiculous, inconvienant, uninviting system.

Not only that but in order to explain the situation it took about half an hour. The people just didn't get it. Magic coin gone. It stopped up a lane in the garage. Luckily we weren't leaving at a busy time.

I have avoided that garage ever since the day I rode my bicycle up to the top floor to take a picture of the city skyline and got chased down by a fat, slovenly security guard in a golf cart who told me I had to pay to be there. This was at least three years ago. Glad to see things haven't improved. Perhaps fat security guard is now fat manager.

On the brighter side I had to run out to Brandon yesterday morning and so I came back on the elevated lanes (I've never driven those into the city, only out to Brandon). Channelside is starting to look like a nice, dense, urban neighborhood from up there. It was pretty sweet.
Now if there were just some people in those buildings...

I don't see what the big deal is about the new parking setup. You push the button, you get the coin. When you leave, you put the coin in,and you swipe the card, then the gate goes up and you step on the gas to make your car go forward. What's the problem? It really couldn't be any easier. I'm happy with it. It's better than talking to an attendant while they're talking on the cellphone or whatever, fumbling around to get change,etc. Also, went to the Red Brick Pizza place over there. Had a sandwich. Terrible. About a half hr wait and they weren't even busy. Saw a couple of the units in Towers of Channelside. nice pool, not as great as i thought it would be though with all the hype about it. 1100 sq ft balcony (so they say) on a $700k unit was really nice. sweeping panoramic views. inside didn't seem to measure up to the stated sq footage either. but it was nice. just way over priced.

With all these people you would think the city could capitalize more:

Ticket sales close in on Madison Square Garden
By Sean Daly, Times Pop Music Critic
In print: Wednesday, July 16, 2008
Not only is Madison Square Garden "the world's most famous arena," it's also one of the busiest. But the venerable New York joint shouldn't get too cocky. According to Pollstar, an industry trade magazine, Tampa's St. Pete Times Forum is now the second-busiest venue in the United States, right behind MSG. The Times Forum was also the 11th-busiest venue in the entire world.

Pollstar ranks venues based on ticket sales; thanks to concert and sporting events (primarily the Tampa Bay Lightning), the Times Forum sold 236,038 tickets from January to June 2008. The BankAtlantic Center in Sunrise was ranked eighth in the country; Orlando's Amway Arena was ninth.

These yowza numbers aren't new for the Times Forum, which has benefited from a central location in Florida plus a rabid concertgoing public. Built in 1996, the Tampa landmark has been the No. 1 venue in the country four times in the past five years. And with Tom Petty, George Michael and Neil Diamond all scheduled to perform this year, plus a buzz-worthy Lightning team, the Times Forum just might catch MSG by the end of 2008.

Sean Daly, Times Pop Music Critic

http://www.tampabay.com/features/music/article701057.ece

How do they define "venue"? It's not all stadiums (the Yankees have sold 2.5m tickets this year and even the Rays are over 1m). Perhaps stadiums under a certain number of seats?

Indoor arenas.

Indoor arenas.

The Trop's indoors.

I hate when articles make statistical claims without any mention of how the numbers were calculated.

The trop is a baseball stadium. Ofcourse, it has many ticket sales, it seats about 40,000. But they are talking about indoor ARENAS. The trop is home to the Rays, maybe a basketball tournament or two. The forum is home to more events, like all arenas. Concerts, circuses, fighting, ceremonies, as well as the Lightning. Its the difference between a stadium and arena.

I still remember when the Forum first opened. I went to the Royal Hannaford Circus and the place wasn't even completed yet (there was still a lot of interior work to be done during the time).

i know two new channelside residents - my parents are trading in their house in apollo beach for a penthouse at meridian. good to see this happening! they're excited about walking to shop and eat, taking the trolley... something i thought i'd never expect from such conservative types.

I still remember when the Forum first opened. I went to the Royal Hannaford Circus and the place wasn't even completed yet (there was still a lot of interior work to be done during the time).

Well, from what Palace Sports and Entertainment (the last owners of the Lightning) remarked... I think it was Tom Wilson specifically -- he said the Forum (when he first saw it probably in 1997-98 (Palace Sports tried to buy the team but Art Williams swooped in and got them -- for one year) that the building seemed incomplete. "Someone must have said 'It is supposed to be finished now, so it is finished now.'"

They knew how to operate an arena, that much is certain. I know their was disdain for their ownership as much as their was celebration of the team winning the Cup in 2004... But above all things, Palace Sports took Ice Palace a step beyond.

Good to hear Maxim98. Let them know I own PH#505 there and ask if maybe they have some friends that would be interested in becoming their neighbors? :)
I will probably be putting it on the market in the near future as we have decided to keep our home to raise our three year old.

Does anyone know how much apartments are in Seaboard (?) Whatever that apartment one is on Twiggs.

^ they actually have a pretty good website with all that info on it. Starts at $1060 apparently.

http://www.seaportchannelside.com/

Thats not too bad... I would need a room mate though >.<

Judge orders auction of vacant Tampa Channelside condos

Vacant condos could be bargains
By James Thorner, Times Staff Writer

Published Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:32 PM

The fallout from an overbuilt condo market intensified as a bankruptcy judge has ordered the auction of the remaining vacant condos in the Place at Channelside, an insolvent development near the Port of Tampa.

The Oct. 5 auction takes in 171 of 245 condos at the Place, ranging in size from 596-square-foot studios to a mammoth 3,665-square-foot penthouse. The whole portfolio will be sold as one unit with a minimum reserve price of $17.25-million.

Based on the minimum bid requirement, units could sell for $100,000 each, far shy of the several-hundred-thousand-dollar asking price for previously purchased, modest-sized units.

Developer Fida Sirdar of Key Developers Group signed up buyers for two eight-story condo towers in 2005. But by 2007, buyers were suing by the dozens to back out of deals.

The 2.1-acre site comes with ground-floor shop space, a parking garage and other extras.

This probably won't be the last condo-related auction: Projects such as the Towers at Channelside and Trump Tower Tampa also are inching their way through bankruptcy court.

Trump Tower is little more than a lot on the Hillsborough River, but developers expressed fear last month that their multi-million-dollar property may be subject to a fire sale if they don't get a cash-rich investor.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/realestate/article778688.ece

The whole portfolio will be sold as one unit
WTF kind of crap is this?

Nice way to lock out local buyers who would actually move in right away and populate the neighborhood... And talk about a great way to f*** over the 74 owners who actually kept their word.

Who is the judge that approved this lousy idea?

Yes it sucks for those buyers who closed on their units, but it'll probably take 5 years or so to burn off those other units. Consequently the judge probably made the best economic decision for all involved and bundled the remaining units. This will allow the new owner to either try and sell them individually or convert to rentals until the market recovers. It also allows the current developer some protection. It sucks but its the result of the current market. The current developer obviously doesn't have the ability to maintain the current situation and the likely outcome would be a reduction in quality of life for the current residents and deterioration of the building because the developer cannot keep up with it. The new owner would in theory have the ability to maintain the current standards and continue either selling or renting. Trust me I lived in an apartment complex "going condo" with a developer with shallow pockets, everything went to crap real fast.

We'll see what happens. My guess is that they get turned into rentals while some company sits on them for a few years.

It's a real shame that the units weren't auctioned off individually, which is of course more work and would take more time, but also should have yielded more money and gotten permanent owner/residents in the neighborhood much sooner.

I wonder how much they will rent for, or how much they will resell for?
I wish they would've auctioned them, because I would jump on one for sure!

We'll see what happens. My guess is that they get turned into rentals while some company sits on them for a few years.

It's a real shame that the units weren't auctioned off individually, which is of course more work and would take more time, but also should have yielded more money and gotten permanent owner/residents in the neighborhood much sooner.

The judge's responsibility isn't to fill the neighborhood with owner residents, it's to maximize the revenue for the creditors. You'd think individual sales would lead to higher revenue, but perhaps calculating in all the extra time and expense for individual sales makes it even out. There's obviously plenty of past history to go from.

It is a shame though, having the building full of owner residents would be great for the neighborhood.

The carrying costs on a place like that are enormous. This is probably the best solution for the creditors and speaking of the neighborhood in general:

CHANGING CHANNELSIDEThe entertainment complex, which has struggled to draw local customers since it opened seven years ago, is finally seeing modest signs of success.
By Susan Thurston, Times Staff Writer

Published Wednesday, August 20, 2008 12:00 PM


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's 9 p.m. on a Wednesday, and bartender Jason Lewis is alone at the bar reading a copy of I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell.

Six hours into his shift, he's rung about $50 in sales and isn't expecting much more. He can't remember a slower night in the two years he has worked at Tinatapas in Channelside, but laments there have been many. Business is good on the weekends but slow the rest of the week, especially during the day, when many of the restaurants are closed.

"We get a lot of tourists who are in their hotels looking for something to do,'' Lewis said. "They come down here during the day and say, 'This is it?'''

Seven years after opening in Tampa's seaport on the edge of downtown, Channelside has struggled to gain the foothold as envisioned. Challenges that once loomed, from finding a vibrant tenant mix to developing a downtown customer base, remain. Throw in the 9/11 attacks that took place a few months after the opening and the recent real-estate bust, and it's a wonder the place has survived — and, in a handful of instances, thrived.

"There's nothing down there to draw you,'' said Denise Becknell, a Channel District resident who wants to move but can't find a buyer for her loft. "It's over-rated.''

A slow start

The $49 million entertainment complex opened in early 2001 with few tenants and strong competition from Centro Ybor and St. Petersburg's BayWalk, which opened about the same time. Channelside's original owner had taken over the 10-screen movie complex, the main anchor, in anticipation of Regal Cinemas declaring bankruptcy. A few restaurants pulled out at the last minute, leaving Pop City, a club and adult arcade, as the only major draw.

Within months, despite the addition of Stump's Supper Club, Howl at the Moon and a few other businesses, the situation wasn't much better. A representative for Channelside's owner at the time, Orix Real Estate Equities of Chicago, admitted: "It should not have been built at the time it was built because there is a complete lack of demand for this retail rental space.''

The 230,000-square-foot center persisted and, by mid 2003, was about three-quarters occupied. The next year, Hooters arrived, giving locals a taste of familiarity.

Since then, several businesses have come and gone. The Signature Room Grille, an outpost of the famed restaurant atop Chicago's John Hancock building, opened in 2006 but closed the next year. Grille 29, which had a decent following among locals, shuttered last fall.

In March, the company that owns some of the bars on the second level, including Margarita Mama's and Banana Joe's, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. A few weeks ago, Hook Rum Club, a large bar on the second level, closed.

Locals lacking

Drawing locals, the bread-and-butter of retail centers, has been difficult. Investors, not homeowners, bought many nearby condominiums, leaving a significant percentage vacant. The Towers of Channelside, the closest to Channelside, filed for bankruptcy.

Even those living in the Channel District don't frequent the businesses as often as expected. They might walk over for dinner or a movie every now and then but haven't made a habit of it.

"I really don't go over there,'' said Jill Lifsey, 36, who lives in the Victory Lofts and owns District Designs, a modern design center next door. "It's so young. It's all clubs.''

She and her husband, Stan, prefer downtown places, such as Zelda's Cafe & Deli on Kennedy Boulevard or Fly on Franklin Street, over Channelside's themed eateries.

"Personally, I don't think it's high quality,'' she said. "It's kind of cheesy.''

Luisa Meshekoff, owner of a longtime dance studio in the Channel District, said she's never liked the look or feel of Channelside. Rather than blend with the waterfront setting, like the Florida Aquarium, the complex blocks it.

"It's pretty plastic,'' she said. "My preferences are for smaller enclaves with something that's interesting. Something that's more the essence of the neighborhood.''

Pockets of positives

Amid the disappointments are signs of encouragement. After several years of tenant searching, Channelside is nearly full, thanks to the recent additions of Wet Willie's and Oishi Japanese restaurant. It's a prime destination for conventioneers and tourists, and becomes party central whenever a major event comes to town, such as next year's Super Bowl.

Despite poor economic times, some businesses are seeing modest growth. Sales at the Wine Design, one of the center's few longtime retail shops, has increased in the past five years, especially among regulars who like the new wine-tasting vending machines. Locals now account for half the business, up from 25 percent a few years ago.

"We're extremely pleased that our numbers keep going up,'' co-owner Heidi Nietzel said. "We've always been saying, 'It's going to take longer than expected.'''

At Stumps, after a few years of flat sales, receipts are up, due to the new Rock Star Fridays in which customers sing Karaoke to a live band. At Splitsville — an upscale bowling-alley concept that's expanding nationwide — corporate events, private parties and nighttime traffic have built business every year. (Cruise passengers don't spend much unless their ship is delayed.)

Even Bennigan's, which closed most of its locations, stayed open in Channelside and enjoys a jump in business during hockey games, concerts and popular movie openings.

"We've been doing great,'' said David Beringer, one of the managers. "We're real busy on the weekends and during the week we're up compared to last year.''

A driving force

Soldiering through the ups and down: Guy Revelle and his partner, Mark Gibson. The longtime tenants started with Stump's and Howl at the Moon, then added Splitsville and Tinatapas.

Going in, they knew it would take time to revitalize downtown Tampa and develop the Channel District. They also knew they had some absolutes in their favor. Within walking distance were major attractions — the Florida Aquarium, St. Pete Times Forum, Tampa Convention Center and streetcar to Ybor City.

Revelle immersed himself in everything downtown and Channelside. He joined boards and committees for the Tampa Downtown Partnership and Tampa Bay & Company, and started meeting with public officials. He also pleaded — to no avail — with Outback officials to bring in a restaurant.

"This is going to be a slow build, and we were ready for that,'' Revelle said in a recent interview. "I've never been the type of person to sit around and cry.''

Revelle successfully fought to add weekend evening hours to the yellow In-Town Trolley that circulates through downtown. He pushed to attract national sporting events, such as the 2008 Women's Final Four, and he wants to create a frequent customer card for locals.

Persistent problems

Business owners admit some problems — such as parking — are unlikely to go away. The Tampa Port Authority garage across the street fills up quickly on weekends. The west-side parking lot is free at lunchtime but costs $5 any time after 1:30 p.m., deterring many people who can park for free at competing venues, such as International Plaza.

Once inside, access to the waterfront is limited due to port security. Only a few places offer waterfront views.

Even the name creates confusion. First it was the Channelside at Garrison Seaport, then the Shoppes at Channelside. Channelside stuck, but became the catchall name for the Channel District neighborhood.

So the complex added Bay Plaza to the name in 2006. Banners and signs advertise as such, although it's still known locally as Channelside. Its Web site, ChannelsideBayPlaza.com, is often confused for Channelside.com, which is unrelated.

Efforts to build a local following have met with mixed results. Hooters offered a free lunchtime trolley from the downtown business district but ended it late last year because the cost didn't justify it.

This summer, plans to revive Friday night fireworks fizzled when businesses couldn't raise the money.

Customers from neighboring hotels and attractions continue to help keep the center afloat. The convention center mentions Channelside prominently when soliciting large groups. And the Florida Aquarium has discussed launching a summer "date night" with extended hours on Thursdays, so patrons can walk directly from there to dinner at Channelside.

Most weekday nights, it's not unusual for out-of-towners and conventioneers to make up most of the clientele. Business people walk over from their hotels only to find the complex half-closed.

"I had a great meal at the Thai place, but it was empty,'' said Al Masucci, a medical sales manager from New Jersey. Channelside is "a beautiful place, but I thought it would be a lot busier.''

— Will Channelside ever become a top destination? Tell us what you think at tbteditors@tampabay.com.


http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/article777925.ece

The problem is that if they auction off 170+ units to individuals, the winning bids will probably be $70-$90k each.... You can't dump 170 units on the market at once and not expect the prices to collapse (especially given the lack of interest in condos right now).

I actually think it's pretty smart of them to do a bulk sale. Hopefully, some large development group will swoop it up and then conduct a sales/rental program.

Think about it this way - the bankrupt developer would probably lose their shirt if they sold the cheapest one-bedroom for less than $220k. With this plan, a development company can come in, take the risk, and sell them starting at $150k and still make a nice profit (as a reward for taking what is still a big gamble in this market).

The existing buyers will surely suffer from a drop in values, but with a bulk sale such as this, probably much less than if an absolute auction took place for all the units. Regardless, in the long term, the true value of these condos will stabilize once supply/demand are back in balance.

Its more than just supply/demand.
Its when lenders are willing to give out loans again.
And I hope they don't go crazy again....

Loans are out there for people with historically proper downpayment/income requirements. The days of 5% down (unless it's VA or FHA) and 4-5x income are gone.

The only caveat to that is that banks are in fact, restricting loans for certain areas they believe have a significant risk of the values declining further. In that case, the borrower has two choices... Up the downpayment or pick another home/neighborhood.

The problem is that if they auction off 170+ units to individuals, the winning bids will probably be $70-$90k each.... You can't dump 170 units on the market at once and not expect the prices to collapse (especially given the lack of interest in condos right now).

That doesn't make any sense at all.

Selling one unit at $17.5mil+ limits the pool of bidders only to those interests who can afford to make such a singularly large bid. Selling the units in a different way (there are many ways the units could be bundled and sold off) would then allow buyers into the bidding pool who are interested in bidding, but do not have the capital to buy the place out. Inevitably, the per unit price goes up when more bidders have access to the units being auctioned off.

That doesn't make any sense at all.

Selling one unit at $17.5mil+ limits the pool of bidders only to those interests who can afford to make such a singularly large bid. Selling the units in a different way (there are many ways the units could be bundled and sold off) would then allow buyers into the bidding pool who are interested in bidding, but do not have the capital to buy the place out. Inevitably, the per unit price goes up when more bidders have access to the units being auctioned off.

You're right that with a large enough pool of bidders, the values should increase, not drop. However, to guarantee a large enough pool of buyers (for 170+ units), the auctioneer would need to conduct regional/national marketing - which is extremely cost prohibitive. I've been to and associated with some of the more recent REO auctions. Believe me, you don't want to drop 170+ units into a "absolute" auction - it would be a massacre.

Looking back, I didn't fully explain my logic for that statement.

I figured they could have done something as simple as releasing 30 units a month for auction...

I just want people living in the buildings asap. The sooner people live there the sooner the neighborhood finally starts taking shape, and the sooner values stabilize and something realistic can actually get built.

Btw, I seriously doubt that we're going to see any rental project actually break ground downtown any time soon. Probably not any hotels either, since condo units are being converted for those uses as well (and occupancy is plummeting along with travel). Thankfully, Element and The Slade are far enough along that they will actually get built. The streetscape won't be marred with the concrete shells.

Hotel Indigo to break ground soon in Tampa

Posted: Sep 15, 2008 07:58 PM

Construction of a new $30-million Hotel Indigo in Tampa's Channelside District should begin before the end of the year. The Sembler Co. of St. Petersburg and Tampa's BayStar Hotel Group are partners in the 168-room, seven-story hotel planned at Meridian Avenue and Cumberland Street. They expect to break ground in the fourth quarter of this year and open the doors in the first quarter of 2010, said George Glover, BayStar's chief executive. Earlier this year, BayStar bought the Heritage Hotel in downtown St. Petersburg. It will reopen it in November as a Hotel Indigo after a $3-million makeover. InterContinental Hotel Group launched Hotel Indigo in 2004 as a hip, "branded boutique" line targeting mid-market business travelers.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/article812916.ece

Eh small but will add density...

Is this a part of seaboard square?

^Sembler is in charge of Seaboard Square, so yes.

Darn, now where will I park for free near channelside? :lol:
This is good news, can't wait to see the renderings!

12th street parking is free from 8am - 9pm near the garage

PRWeb (Press Release Newswire)

Tampa Developer Files Bankruptcy - 171 Condos Now Scheduled for the Auction Block

By order of the U.S. Bankruptcy Court, a portfolio of 171 brand new condominium apartments is now slated for the auction block. Complex is known as "The Place at Channelside", near the Port of Tampa, Florida

Tampa, FL (PRWEB) September 18, 2008 -- The Auction is scheduled for October 15th at 11 AM - the entire portfolio of 171 units (there are 245 units within this upscale development) along with 12,930± square feet of retail space will be offered as one unit of sale with a starting price of $17.250 million.


According to Lamar Fisher, President and CEO of Fisher Auction Co., Inc. this is an unbelievable concession on the Court's part because the developer owes the bank more than $47 Million.


The United States Bankruptcy Court engaged Fisher Auction Co., Inc. along with Cushman and Wakefield to market and auction this portfolio. The Developer fell into insolvency trying to cope with rapidly declining condo prices and buyers who backed out of their contracts. "We are pleased to bring our experience with bankruptcy and bank-owned property auctions throughout the country to this case" said Fisher.


"This is an absolute remarkable opportunity for investors to take advantage of the current marketing conditions and capture this trophy development." Fisher continued "With marketing conditions having stagnated for the last couple of years, we are looking to move this portfolio which will benefit both the creditors and the local economic area. No one wants empty units sitting - I think conditions are in place for the real estate market to begin a transition."


For additional auction information or photographs visit www.fisherauction.com

http://www.prweb.com/releases/Bankruptcy/Auction/prweb1343974.htm

Interesting....The Place is one condo I would really like to own - but I only need one, not the whole place!

Steve

Hotel Indigo to break ground soon in Tampa

Posted: Sep 15, 2008 07:58 PM

Construction of a new $30-million Hotel Indigo in Tampa's Channelside District should begin before the end of the year. The Sembler Co. of St. Petersburg and Tampa's BayStar Hotel Group are partners in the 168-room, seven-story hotel planned at Meridian Avenue and Cumberland Street. They expect to break ground in the fourth quarter of this year and open the doors in the first quarter of 2010, said George Glover, BayStar's chief executive. Earlier this year, BayStar bought the Heritage Hotel in downtown St. Petersburg. It will reopen it in November as a Hotel Indigo after a $3-million makeover. InterContinental Hotel Group launched Hotel Indigo in 2004 as a hip, "branded boutique" line targeting mid-market business travelers.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/article812916.ece
Great News! It's good we'll have some more hotel space in the Channelside area. I agree, a little too small for the space it's planned for. But still great none the less. Can't wait for the renders and hear more from Sembler.

Darn, now where will I park for free near channelside? :lol:
This is good news, can't wait to see the renderings!

I don't have access right now, but trust me, it isn't much to look at.

I don't have access right now, but trust me, it isn't much to look at.

Well that's a downer.

Great News! It's good we'll have some more hotel space in the Channelside area. I agree, a little too small for the space it's planned for. But still great none the less. Can't wait for the renders and hear more from Sembler.
So just went through like 5 so links to get to somewhere I wanted to be at. Got an PDF of a Indigo Development Brochure. Don't know if anyone has seen this or if it's an old render, but it's 7 stories just like the article, so it could be.

http://development.ihg.com/content/downloads/Final%20Indigo%20Brochure.pdf

It's on Page 25 and on the first row. I don't like it at all. It's just like Grand Central and too boxy. Looking at the other projects around the US, it looks like we got the low level of developments. Too white aswell!

I think Indigo's Ft. Myers 7 story hotel project has a better design then the one here.

Don't mind the white and the overall design aesthetic, but the render doesn't show enough. Its like trying to get an idea of what a Honda Civic looks like by showing the side mirror. Not enough there yet to make a fair opinion. But I am Mr.Modernism, so its looking good to me so far. It'll fit the neighborhood. But if they wrap that inverted "L" shape around the corner and do some type of CCTV tower ripoff that would be shameless. Be happy it doesn't look like the Jersey, Las Vegas or any of them really. They all look like crap except the Miami one.

Don't mind the white and the overall design aesthetic, but the render doesn't show enough. Its like trying to get an idea of what a Honda Civic looks like by showing the side mirror. Not enough there yet to make a fair opinion. But I am Mr.Modernism, so its looking good to me so far. It'll fit the neighborhood. But if they wrap that inverted "L" shape around the corner and do some type of CCTV tower ripoff that would be shameless. Be happy it doesn't look like the Jersey, Las Vegas or any of them really. They all look like crap except the Miami one.
Whats modern about it? The boxness of it? There's nothing modern about it at all. If you call covering it with white paint "modern", than my house is modern than. And this is just the first project. Either they make the whole Seaboard Square project white which would suck or they have this building as white and than make the other two some different color which will look awful.

Im not sure if the rendering is in this picture but

http://www.tampagov.net/dept_economic_and_urban_development/images/WEB_MAP_IMAGES/20_Seaboard_Square.jpg

^That's not it.

The whole design language is modern. The window shape, lack of arch topped windows, the lack of divided lights, the overall massing of the structure, the exterior materials and finishes (it looks like smooth stucco). All are a more contemporary look. The drawings for the project above, which isn't the project in question, are a good version of Med Derivative. Most of that neighborhood has gone contemporary. Trying to shoehorn in something else now will seem totally out of place. Kind of like putting a Richard Meier house in Hyde Park. It wouldn't fit.

Whats the obsession with Villages in Tampa?

Sprawl trumps all!

The obsession seems to stem from people's desire to make everything look a historically inaccurate remake of Positano. Gotta love foam bands wrapping windows.

Whats the obsession with Villages in Tampa?

Point 1, its not just Tampa its the trendy thing in most cosmo markets now a days as they try and change the image of the burbs.

Point 2, quasi unrelated but why do people always want to move to the country to turn it into the city? Street lights, pavement and parking meters for everyone... :ohno:

Point 3, its funny how people will think these are so novel and trendy and at the same time turn their nose up at actually going into the city to do things...

Whats the obsession with Villages in Tampa?

No, I think its the fact that we have "cow-town" mentality in the council who thinks Tampa is a small village.
Oh I know Rob I'm fighting all the development in Keystone!!!

The Place at Channelside sells for $21.9M
Tampa Bay Business Journal
by Michael Hinman Staff writer

The identity of the group in line to buy The Place at Channelside has yet to be revealed, but the purchase price is now public.

The 243-unit complex on Channelside Drive sold for $21.9 million during a bankruptcy court-ordered auction Wednesday, representing about $128,000 each for the unsold 171 units plus 12,930 square feet of retail.

Fisher Auction Co. Inc. and Cushman & Wakefield of Florida Inc. conducted the auction meant to help settle a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing from Key Developers Group LLC, which had hoped to maintain the property during the reorganization. However, the court instead chose an auction plan offered by KeyBank National Association – still owed $47.8 million – and a minimum bid was set at $17.25 million, or about 24 cents on the dollar.

More than 50 people gathered to participate in the auction, led by Lamar Fisher. Several people were involved in the bidding early on, but after amounts hit $19 million, it was a battle between two potential buyers, creeping up about $100,000 a time until the final amount fell just short of $22 million.

The bankruptcy court still has to approve the winning bid. Closing is scheduled for the end of October. If the bid stands, it will represent a sale of about $92.18 per square foot, well below the estimated original value of $350 per square foot.

“We opened the bidding low enough to get the market excited about it,” Byron Moger, executive director of apartment brokerage services for Cushman & Wakefield, said last month when the auction was first announced. “It won’t have high velocity, but it will have decent velocity, especially at a lower price point.”

Key Developers filed for bankruptcy in March, and joined several other condominium developments in the Channel District that sought bankruptcy protection or simply gave ownership back to the bank since the beginning of the year following the crash of the condominium market.

http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2008/10/13/daily36.html?f=et83&ana=e_du

Yikes. That's quite a deal. I knew I should have kept that $22m laying around for a rainy day!

But look at the $128,000 for a unit. Wish I had that kind of money.

If they were smart they would come up with a breakdown per square foot then add a simple multiplier factor, say +20%, keep the whole thing open and honest (and minimally staffed) and they could start finding buyers quick. Have a very simple one page sheet explaining what they paid (including settlement sheet from the auction) divided by square feet of residences, times 1.2% equals your deal. They would sell very fast being open, honest and reasonable like that.

Yikes. That's quite a deal. I knew I should have kept that $22m laying around for a rainy day!

I shouldn't have used mine as joint paper. :ohno: lol jk

GRAND CENTRAL TO GET A GYM!

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/retail/article856568.ece

Though the Grand Central at Kennedy's 392 residential units now are about 95 percent occupied, the vast swath of retail space on the ground floor of the building has remained noticeably empty.

That will change soon. The condo complex at 1208 E Kennedy Blvd. will get its first major tenant in early 2009 — a Powerhouse Gym location that will take up about 15 percent of the available 108,000 square feet of retail space.

"A fitness center has been in our plans since the inception of Grand Central six years ago," said Ken Stoltenberg, a director for developer Mercury Advisors. "It's one of the most requested uses for all the people who live at the property. It's something that has been really lacking in the area, and … a key building block you want to have in a successful urban neighborhood."

Stoltenberg said he hopes to announce more tenants soon. A major supermarket is high on the developer's wish list. "It's extremely important for the neighborhood, and we are working on it very hard," he said.

Powerhouse Gym franchise owner Matthew Midyett said his family owned five Powerhouse locations in greater Los Angeles for 20 years. Now a Lutz resident, Midyett said ample parking at Grand Central and the developer's willingness to work out a deal made it the right time to jump into the Tampa market.

"It is just really difficult for a business owner to sink a million bucks into something" right now, Midyett said. "You need the help of an educated landlord that is aware of the times."

Powerhouse Gym of Tampa Bay will take up a corner unit. The Powerhouse brand is notable for high-end equipment and a policy that allows independent trainers to use gym facilities, Midyett said. For this location, he plans a cycling room that will feature virtual reality courses and blasts of pure oxygen.

Midyett hopes the Powerhouse location will open in mid January. The gym's Web site is www.powerhousegym.com/tampabay.

One other occupant has been confirmed for Grand Central's retail space. The Tampa theater company Stageworks will move into its first permanent home early next year. Mercury Advisors donated about 6,000 square feet of space for Stageworks as a condition of the project's approval, Stoltenberg said.

For a time, Mercury Advisors had hoped to sell the ground floor spaces as retail condominiums but in recent months has decided to lease them out indefinitely.

"Obviously, given the challenging economic times, it's always the most difficult to get the first (tenant)," Stoltenberg said. "It's a use that everyone in the building and neighborhood is going to enjoy."

The developer was able to fill most of its residential units by offering about 150 unsold condos as rental apartments.

More Miami than Monaco

Jesus Abad and Nestor Urdaneta had a concept that was pretty simple: offer hip clothes just a hop from downtown.

Their 2,500-square foot boutique opened in July at 2907 W Kennedy Blvd. The store is named Monaco Boutique and Salon, but what's in it is much more reflective of its owners' backgrounds as store owners in Miami and Venezuela, Abad said.

The clothes and jewelry are trendy and urban, and all of it comes from New York, Miami or Los Angeles. It's best suited for young professionals looking for outfits for nights out.

"We get some baseball players from out of town, Buccaneer players — pretty much the crowd I get is anywhere from 18 years old to 34," Abad said.

Abad and Urdaneta leased part of their space to accommodate a salon and spa, which opened this month. The combination gives the neighborhood "something Tampa doesn't have (elsewhere) — a high-end boutique with a high-end salon," Abad said.

Clothing prices range from $45 to $169. Hours at Monaco Fashion are 10 a.m. to 9 p.m. Monday through Saturday, and Sunday by appointment.

Do you know something that should be everybody's business? Call (813) 226-3394 or e-mail sharonlginn@yahoo.com.

I like the inside of The Place at Channelside

http://tampabay.bizjournals.com/slideshow/1717113.html?page=1

^On the urban home tour it was by far had the best interior/common areas of any of the projects. They really did a great job on it.

Don't know if this old news or news, but according to Mercury Advisors website, they are considering making Del Villar apartments due to the economy.

Also, any news about the Garrison Apartments or the proposed parking garage in Channelside?

Mercury is out of their minds if they even think of starting Del Villar for four years. There is going to be so much overcapacity in that area, that everyone and their brother will be cutting each other's throats to get renters in the door.

Mercury is out of their minds if they even think of starting Del Villar for four years. There is going to be so much overcapacity in that area, that everyone and their brother will be cutting each other's throats to get renters in the door.
Yeah, it would really smart of them to just put this on the shelves instead of going through the trouble of making the units rental and than changing them back to residential when the market rebounds. The only reason Element and such are doing it this way is because they are completed or almost completed.

Mercury is out of their minds if they even think of starting Del Villar for four years. There is going to be so much overcapacity in that area, that everyone and their brother will be cutting each other's throats to get renters in the door.

Market to U.T. Students. It'll make it no problem at all.

http://tamparealestateinsider.wordpress.com/2008/10/24/the-place-condos-channelside/

The Place at Channelside Auction Winner Announced-Tampa, Florida

Posted on October 24, 2008 by realtyrae

Canadian developer Jim Spatz makes American debut

Tampa Bay Business Journal - by Michael Hinman Staff Writer

TAMPA — Jim Spatz had never strayed far from Nova Scotia. But with a simple wave of the hand, he made his development company international when he became the new owner of The Place at Channelside.

Spatz, CEO of Southwest Properties in Halifax, joined forces with Armco Capital Corp.to buy the 243-unit condominium complex in Tampa’s Channel District for $21.9 million in a bankruptcy auction last week. He won’t close on the property until the end of the month, but Spatz already knows The Place will have to settle as a rental destination for some time to come.

“We’d like to sell units, but there’s just no market for that right now,” Spatz said. “We’re looking at a long-term horizon, maybe three or four or five years. But when the market recovers, and we believe it will, we’ll be ready to sell.”

A growing influence
As the American economy faltered, Spatz decided last summer that it was time to invest in Florida. He visited a number of properties for sale or facing foreclosure, but he didn’t get excited until he found The Place at Channelside, a victim of the nation’s crashed housing market.

A further enticement: the possibility of snagging it for less than $100 a square foot.

KeyBank N.A., trying to collect on $47.8 million it loaned to Key Developers GroupLLC, convinced a bankruptcy judge to auction the property. The minimum bid was $17.25 million, or 24 cents on the dollar.

Spatz flew to Tampa for the Oct. 15 auction.

Unknown locally, Spatz sat among about 75 people in The Place’s recreation room on the sixth floor with a view of Tampa’s port area holding a placard identifying him simply as “574.”

Within minutes of Fisher Auction Co. Inc.’s Lamar Fisher smacking his gavel, Spatz was high bidder for The Place at roughly $128,000 for each of its unsold 171 units.

“It’s a great location, and I think it’s going to get stronger over time,” Spatz said. “You have that proximity to downtown where all those jobs are, and people will want to be close to the food and entertainment there, too.”

Canada calling
In recent months, the U.S. dollar has strengthened against its Canadian counterpart after spending the summer almost even, but that hasn’t slowed the Canadian influence in the American housing market. Rod Anderson, an insolvency attorney with Holland & Knight, represented one of the losing bidders for The Place, who he would only identify as a Canadian firm.

“Florida is on a lot of people’s maps because a lot has happened here in terms of growth and development,” Anderson said. “We’re seeing opportunities here for some different players who are looking for a value price and have the deep pockets to be able to fund it and hold out long enough for the market to turnaround so they can have an exit strategy when the time’s right.”

Waiting it out

Rental demand remains strong in the Channel District where rates remain well over the submarket’s average of $1.19 a square foot.

A competing project, Grand Central at Kennedy, converted to rental in February and that 392-unit complex is now 95 percent occupied.

“There’s not a shortage of people who want to live downtown and have that lifestyle,” said Ken Stoltenberg, director of Grand Central developer Mercury Advisors. “Once you get over $2,000 a month, the pool of renters thins out pretty quickly. But if you keep it under $2,000, the market is pretty deep.”

Stoltenberg considers himself lucky he was able to hold on to Grand Central and wait out the market, but others with finished projects haven’t been so fortunate.

The Towers of Channelside LLC started January off filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection after Wachovia Bank threatened to default on a $105.8 million loan used for construction. Key Developers soon followed with its own Chapter 11 for The Place.

Ventana TampaLLC gave its 84-unit complex on Kennedy Boulevard and Channelside Drive back to Mercantile Bank after it failed to repay $16.8 million.

But the hundreds of new windows lining Channelside Drive, once vastly dark at night, are brighter these days. Southwest plans to continue that trend once it is handed the keys to The Place.

“It had some rough times, but we’re glad there’s no stigma attached to it,” Spatz said. “It was caught in the same downward draft that many other projects were caught in, and I think when all of that clears up, we’ll be a part of the area where everyone wants to live.”

Canadian developer Jim Spatz makes American debutMan with placard ‘574’ new owner of The Place at Channelside
Friday, October 24, 2008 | Modified: Monday, October 27, 2008 - 4:00 AM
Tampa Bay Business Journal - by Michael Hinman Staff Writer

http://cll.bizjournals.com/story_image/209646-300-0-3.jpg
http://cll.bizjournals.com/story_image/209644-300-0-3.jpg

TAMPA — Jim Spatz had never strayed far from Nova Scotia. But with a simple wave of the hand, he made his development company international when he became the new owner of The Place at Channelside.

Spatz, CEO of Southwest Properties in Halifax, joined forces with Armco Capital Corp. to buy the 243-unit condominium complex in Tampa’s Channel District for $21.9 million in a bankruptcy auction last week. He won’t close on the property until the end of the month, but Spatz already knows The Place will have to settle as a rental destination for some time to come.

“We’d like to sell units, but there’s just no market for that right now,” Spatz said. “We’re looking at a long-term horizon, maybe three or four or five years. But when the market recovers, and we believe it will, we’ll be ready to sell.”

A growing influence
As the American economy faltered, Spatz decided last summer that it was time to invest in Florida. He visited a number of properties for sale or facing foreclosure, but he didn’t get excited until he found The Place at Channelside, a victim of the nation’s crashed housing market.

A further enticement: the possibility of snagging it for less than $100 a square foot.

KeyBank N.A., trying to collect on $47.8 million it loaned to Key Developers Group LLC, convinced a bankruptcy judge to auction the property. The minimum bid was $17.25 million, or 24 cents on the dollar.

Spatz flew to Tampa for the Oct. 15 auction.

Unknown locally, Spatz sat among about 75 people in The Place’s recreation room on the sixth floor with a view of Tampa’s port area holding a placard identifying him simply as “574.”

Within minutes of Fisher Auction Co. Inc.’s Lamar Fisher smacking his gavel, Spatz was high bidder for The Place at roughly $128,000 for each of its unsold 171 units.

“It’s a great location, and I think it’s going to get stronger over time,” Spatz said. “You have that proximity to downtown where all those jobs are, and people will want to be close to the food and entertainment there, too.”

Canada calling
In recent months, the U.S. dollar has strengthened against its Canadian counterpart after spending the summer almost even, but that hasn’t slowed the Canadian influence in the American housing market. Rod Anderson, an insolvency attorney with Holland & Knight, represented one of the losing bidders for The Place, who he would only identify as a Canadian firm.

“Florida is on a lot of people’s maps because a lot has happened here in terms of growth and development,” Anderson said. “We’re seeing opportunities here for some different players who are looking for a value price and have the deep pockets to be able to fund it and hold out long enough for the market to turnaround so they can have an exit strategy when the time’s right.”

Waiting it out
Rental demand remains strong in the Channel District where rates remain well over the submarket’s average of $1.19 a square foot.

A competing project, Grand Central at Kennedy, converted to rental in February and that 392-unit complex is now 95 percent occupied.

“There’s not a shortage of people who want to live downtown and have that lifestyle,” said Ken Stoltenberg, director of Grand Central developer Mercury Advisors. “Once you get over $2,000 a month, the pool of renters thins out pretty quickly. But if you keep it under $2,000, the market is pretty deep.”

Stoltenberg considers himself lucky he was able to hold on to Grand Central and wait out the market, but others with finished projects haven’t been so fortunate.

The Towers of Channelside LLC started January off filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection after Wachovia Bank threatened to default on a $105.8 million loan used for construction. Key Developers soon followed with its own Chapter 11 for The Place.

Ventana Tampa LLC gave its 84-unit complex on Kennedy Boulevard and Channelside Drive back to Mercantile Bank after it failed to repay $16.8 million.

But the hundreds of new windows lining Channelside Drive, once vastly dark at night, are brighter these days. Southwest plans to continue that trend once it is handed the keys to The Place.

“It had some rough times, but we’re glad there’s no stigma attached to it,” Spatz said. “It was caught in the same downward draft that many other projects were caught in, and I think when all of that clears up, we’ll be a part of the area where everyone wants to live.”

Expanding internationally
Simon Spatz founded Southwest Properties in February 1950 and has grown it from the grocery store business he developed soon after immigrating to Halifax, Nova Scotia.

After spending its first 30 years as a multifamily rental property developer, Southwest leaped into retail, office, warehouse and hospitality in the late 1980s when Spatz’s son, Jim, took over. Southwest has since developed more than $100 million of investment property.

The purchase of The Place at Channelside is the launch of a wide-scale expansion of Southwest into the United States with a focus on Florida, Nevada, Arizona and California.

“We’re looking mostly at acquisition at this point,” Jim Spatz said. “I don’t think you’re going to see a crane in the skyline for quite a while.”

mhinman@bizjournals.com | 813.342.2477

http://tampabay.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2008/10/27/story1.html?b=1225080000^1721646

Today while going by the towers at channelside there are two signs that say aja channelside.

there is a website and it says winter 2008

http://ajachannelside.com/

Website Ad has a Victoria's Secret type quality to it.

A google search reveals they also have a Myspace page: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=402342091


Today while going by the towers at channelside there are two signs that say aja channelside.

there is a website and it says winter 2008

http://ajachannelside.com/

Speaking of that MySpace profile, they added me a few weeks back. I turned it down.

Speaking of that MySpace profile, they added me a few weeks back. I turned it down.
Meany Head! :D

What is exactly? A bar? restaurant? club? Found a site talking about job openings from them, but didn't specify what they were. Only saying they were looking for security, bartenders, line cooks, servers, and all that.

It looks like it's going to be an upscale club, catering to the business crowd or yuppie crowd.

Yea it's an upscale lounge, I had posted about it earlier in the ToC thread. Should be serving food late which is notable. It's behind schedule (was supposed to open in 2007), but apparently still on the way.

Condo Project Beats The Odds, Builds Hope
By SHANNON BEHNKEN
sbehnken@tampatrib.com
Published: November 2, 2008

From a penthouse balcony on the 29th floor of the best building he ever built, Richard Sacchi stared out over downtown Tampa.

He was broken, a developer whose company had just filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. It was a last-ditch effort to stop foreclosure on The Towers of Channelside, twin condos that got stuck in the housing downturn.

From that balcony, he had a view of two other new condominium complexes, one that filed for bankruptcy a month earlier and another that handed the keys over to the lender and walked away.

"We fully expect to come out of this on the other side," Sacchi said at the time.

That was in March. This month, the developer called with much better news.

The lender that forced Sacchi's hand in bankruptcy by cutting off the credit line has agreed to structure a new loan. That means the company can finish the project and pay off creditors.

This is big news. It's likely, industry insiders say, that the Towers is the first condo complex in Florida to emerge from bankruptcy.

Only time will tell if more follow suit.

The housing boom seemed to bring developers - and wannabes - out of the woodwork. News releases announcing the "tallest" or "most luxurious" condos to ever grace Tampa arrived on my desk regularly.

At one time, there were more than two dozen condo complexes planned for in and around downtown. City officials were just giddy when asked what that kind of development could do to the downtown core, which pretty much shuts down with the business day.

Some of the condos seem to be doing just fine. But many developers, such as the Towers of Channelside LLC, just started too late. The boom fizzled before all the units sold.

All 257 condos were spoken for at one point, Sacchi said. But as the market soured, buyers, many of whom planned to flip for big profits, dropped out. When Wachovia refused to extend the repayment plan for the construction loan, bankruptcy was the only option.

The Towers project wasn't alone. Some condo proposals faded away quietly. Others made big headlines.

Trump Tower Tower Tampa. The developer of the proposed 52-story condo is in Chapter 11, and unless The Donald signs on to a new agreement, the Trump name is off-limits now.

Ventana. The developer of the 84 condominiums in the Channel District surrendered ownership to its lender in June.

Tampa Condo II. The developer of the proposed 472-unit condo filed to reorganize under bankruptcy in March.

The Place At Channelside. Amid Chapter 11 bankruptcy, the developer of the 245-unit building sold 171 unsold units at auction in October. The winning bidder bought all of them for $21.9 million. That's quite a deal, considering the developer owed the bank about $47 million.

Back at The Towers of Channelside, Sacchi is hopeful that shedding the stigma of bankruptcy will help the towers become successful after all.

He has 150 condos left to sell. That includes the penthouse on the 29th floor, which Sacchi has always planned to buy for himself.

From the balcony, he'll look out over whatever residential neighborhood Tampa eventually becomes.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/nov/02/bz-condo-project-beats-the-odds-builds-hope/

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/dec/01/street-tampa-arena-be-renamed-again/

Street By Tampa Arena To Be Renamed Again


By CHRISTIAN M. WADE | The Tampa Tribune
Published: December 1, 2008

TAMPA - As they prepare for the opening of the new Tampa Bay History Center along the Garrison Channel, city officials want to return a nearby roadway to its original name.
If the Tampa City Council approves the changes, Saint Pete Times Forum Drive will be renamed Old Water Street to highlight the role of the Channel District in Tampa's rich history.
Over the years, the quarter-mile-long riverfront bend – now a one-way street running east from Franklin Street to Channelside Drive – has been known by many names.
When the Tampa Bay Lightning's arena was built in 1992, the city renamed the road Ice Palace Drive, after the facility. In 2003, as part of the hockey team's $30 million deal with the St. Petersburg Times to rename the arena the St. Pete Times Forum, the city proposed renaming the road after the arena's new moniker.
At the time, city council members balked at the changes, questioning why the Lightning had included the street name in an amenities package without first getting city approval.
"I don't think the city should be for sale to anybody," Councilman John Dingfelder said.
As an alternative, Dingfelder proposed renaming the street for former Mayor Dick Greco. Greco, however, declined the offer.
Eventually the council approved the changes with a caveat: street signs had to say "Saint" instead of "St." City officials said that using "St." would cause confusion when emergency crews respond to 911 calls.
This time around, the change is expected to face much less opposition from council members; it would cost the city about $1,200 for the new signs.
City officials said the St. Petersburg Times did not object to the proposed change.
In 1997, the roadway was temporarily named Sesame Street by then-Mayor Greco to mark the arrival of the Broadway adaptation of the children's TV show "Sesame Street" at the arena.
The three-story, $52 million history center, set to open this month, will take visitors from the Tampa Bay area's prehistory through the arrival of the Spanish explorers, the Seminole Indian wars, the Civil War, the coming of the railroad and the rise of the modern city.

^^
That will be good. At least the city will bring back some old history into south DT.

It's a shame that street gets the ass of the forum and gets a parking garage considering it's across the street from a park and soon to be museum on the water. It would've been ideal spot for towers.

I like the name change.

Don't know if this old news or news, but according to Mercury Advisors website, they are considering making Del Villar apartments due to the economy.



Yeah I was just going through their website today trying to find new renderings for the Martin. I did come across a nice night rendering of Del Villar:

http://www.mercury-advisors.com/images/html/del_villar_sM9HJ899679C.jpg

Yeah I was just going through their website today trying to find new renderings for the Martin. I did come across a nice night rendering of Del Villar:

http://www.mercury-advisors.com/images/html/del_villar_sM9HJ899679C.jpg
Yeah, I was wondering what happened to this. For a while, it seemed like they scrapped The Martin and were going to do this instead. Interesting. Nice rendering though.

When its done it'll be one of the best looking towers in town and due to its location, will become rather iconic (because its the most prominent thing on the way in on the crosstown).

I hope they actually build it.

I just want to see the robotic garage become a reality... if those caught on, they could really have a visible, tangible impact on condo design around here.