I have just read that the United Nations has identified certain areas in North America which they describe as megacities. These include the Bos-Wash, Chi-Pitts and Cascadia. They say how these areas of really built up and some of the richest areas on Earth and I was thinking all though not as rich as some of those areas the Northern cities are really large and close to each other and have large economies.

For example:


The population of the metropolitan areas are:

Greater Liverpool: 1,589,319
Greater Manchester: 3,180,200
Greater Preston: 350,000
Greater Leeds: 2,200,000
Greater Sheffield: 1,819,500
Greater Nottingham: 1,220,000

Total: 10,350,019.

As for the economies:

Merseyside: 16,173
Greater Manchester: 24,950
West Yorkshire: 31,995
South Yorkshire: 15,799
City of Nottingham: 5,796

Total: 94,713 GVA

This could easily be seen as an important economic and populous region or megapolis.

BTW Bos-Wash stands for Boston to Washington D.C
Chi-Pitts stands for Chicago to Pittsburgh and Cascadia for the region from Vancouver, Canada to Portland, Oregon.

dude, that's not fair. You shouldn’t compare Nottingham to huge areas like South/West Yorkshire. Nottingham is by no means low in it’s economy!

But you're right that this could easily be seen as an important economic and populous region or megapolis.

I only used the city bit because I could'nt find any figures for Greater Nottingham. I suppose I could have used Nottinghamshire.

Greater Preston- since when has that existed? What does that include other than Preston and its suburbs? Blackpool? Fylde basically?

"Greater Manchester: 3,180,200" that's about 600,000 too high, unless you're ropping in Warrington or something

eh? When you say Greater Leeds do you mean West Yorkshire?

Must do; Greater Leeds is different to West Yorkshire.

The figures are'nt meant to be exactly accurate just what I had seen from various websites.

Greater Preston- since when has that existed? What does that include other than Preston and its suburbs? Blackpool? Fylde basically?
Greater Preston has existed since 1978. Its more commonly known as Central Lancashire and consists of 3 boroughs: Preston, South Ribble, Chorley.
They are into the advanced stages of turning them into one unitary authority which will be called Greater Preston.
Dont confuse it with the Northern Ways definition of Central Lancashire which includes Preston, BB-W-DW, Pendle, Lancaster and the Fylde conurbation.

Yes I've heard of Central Lancashire.. I've never really heard of Greater Preston (or Greater Sheffield for that matter) but I do hear informally Greater Liverpool, Leeds and Nottingham- usually X City Region though.

Greater Sheffield is South Yorkshire or sometimes the Sheffield City region.

Yes I've heard of Central Lancashire.. I've never really heard of Greater Preston (or Greater Sheffield for that matter) but I do hear informally Greater Liverpool, Leeds and Nottingham- usually X City Region though.
Only because its in your local media, never nationally. I would never have heard of Greater Leeds if it hadnt of been posted on this forum. The 'Greater Preston' concept has been in the Lancashire media just as much (especially recently), I and the other Preston forumers have just chosen not to shout about it as much.

I've never heard Greater Leeds mentioned in the local media, or anywhere except here and places I have been linked to from here. Isn't it a government thing? City regions and all that?

Doesn't the Leeds city region actually exclude bits of West Yorkshire and inclue bits outside of W Yorks?

i don't see the point of this thread anymore.

I've never heard Greater Leeds mentioned in the local media, or anywhere except here and places I have been linked to from here.
I've seen it in YEP articles and its been mentioned numerous times on your local radio stations.

But?
I would never have heard of Greater Leeds if it hadnt of been posted on this forum.

I've never heard of it outside this forum.

Maybe in the YEP when some government report mentions it. But never as a way of describing the region.

Don't forget Kingston upon Hull too (or Hull to friends), which has around 400,000 inc suburbs.

I thought the Northern way just encompassed areas on the M62 corridor, from Liverpool to Hull?

It should also include NewcastleGateshead and Teeside; I personally dont include them but officially they are included.

Greater Liverpool, Preston, Leeds, Sheffield are really only used in the local media and if you listen from time to time on weather forecasts. I dont think it really matters tbh.

Leeds City Region is used commonly in official things and a bit in the media and among people. It generally includes all of West Yorkshire and parts of North Yorkshire (Skipton, Harrogate, Selby) and the City of York.

how does the city of york fall into the leeds city region?

I don't know, I didn't come up with the places in the city region did I. Even the northern part of Barnsley was defined as Leeds City Region.

Oh you didnt create the Leeds City Region? Sorry I though you did...

I can understand why Harrogate and Selby could be in the region, and I remember a report or something stating that Barnsley is, but surely not york. Not even Barnsley for that matter.

Well, maybe York. But I don't think Selby. I think its to do with the fact that so many people commute from York and Barnsley into Leeds to work (as well as Skipton, Harrogate, Selby, WY towns/cities)

Check out the wiki pages for Greater Sheffield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Sheffield), Greater Nottingham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Nottingham), Greater Merseyside (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Merseyside) and The Northern Way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Northern_Way).

Also, for maps of the city regions, try the Moving Forward: The Northern Way (www.thenorthernway.co.uk) website. There are maps on each idividual city's development plan, eg Sheffield City Region (http://www.thenorthernway.co.uk/downloaddoc.asp?id=19&page=179&skin=0) (chapter 2), Manchester City Region (http://www.thenorthernway.co.uk/downloaddoc.asp?id=18&page=179&skin=0) and Leeds City Region (http://www.thenorthernway.co.uk/downloaddoc.asp?id=17&page=179&skin=0) (last page)

Ah, Greater Greater Mancunia...

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/4011/greatergreatermancuniaql8.png

*evil cackle*

:|

To be honest I think we can remove Vale Royal and Congleton from the region.

leibenstraum?

I love how the 'Manchester city region' can be abbreviated to 'Mcr'!

leibenstraum?

Well, Cheshire... ;)

Leeds city region appears to include Barnsley!! lol

Yeah, so does Sheffields. It's kinda shared by the two. (Although not particularly attached to either)

does that mean they get double the investment/intergration, ie from both diferent city regions. lol

That said, barnsley has the same proportion of or more of people coming to work in Leeds, than a number of the surrounding boroughs to manchester have to the manchester-salford LA, such as oldham, wigan, rochdale

I know someone who lives in Leeds but works in Barnsley.

I live in Salford but work in Oldham. It takes me 15mins to get there too.

How long does it take to go from Leeds to Barnsley?

I can get from my house in leeds to barnsley in 15-20 mins. Rush hour..i've done it once, when i had to go to barnsley hospital it took 25 mins. Bearing in mind all the queues at rush hour on the m1 are gridlocked towards Leeds, and virtually empty south bound towards barnsley. It only starts to block up again when you get past barnsley towards sheffield.

Yes Barnsley is in 2 city regions.

does that mean they get double the investment/intergration, ie from both diferent city regions. lol

That said, barnsley has the same proportion of or more of people coming to work in Leeds, than a number of the surrounding boroughs to manchester have to the manchester-salford LA, such as oldham, wigan, rochdale

You're doing the boundary thing again wiggles. I'll pop up to remind you every time you do it. I'm sure Leeds city centre has more people commuting into it than the CIS tower does too.

?? not making sense. ;)

blah blah blah

Oi! Can you explain why you deliberately lied on the Leeds thread? Aren't you supposed to be a mod?

It's not good fella. It doesn't say much for the forum when the mods are so petty as to lie and make stuff up

Oi! Can you explain why you deliberately lied on the Leeds thread? Aren't you supposed to be a mod?

It's not good fella. It doesn't say much for the forum when the mods are so petty as to lie and make stuff up

Firstly, I'm not a mod. Secondly, where did I lie?

You're doing the boundary thing again wiggles. I'll pop up to remind you every time you do it. I'm sure Leeds city centre has more people commuting into it than the CIS tower does too.

can you explain?

can you explain?

That you're looking at the people who commute into the entire of Leeds as a city, as well as farms on the outskirts, whilst you're only measuring commuters from Oldham into the city council LA, excluding three of the main employment areas in the city.

Firstly, I'm not a mod. Secondly, where did I lie?

You lied in the 'Leeds Population Growth' thread in our forum

I know you are saying now that it was your computer's fault, but either way, it's not good enough

You tend to use a lot of (unreferenced) data to make your arguments, and people trust you to be accurate and not, by accident or design, miscalculate or misrepresent a figure in order to mislead people

I'm sure you just think you're batting for Manchester, but it's not cricket

Thank fuck you aren't a mod

Lets not get on to the fucking population arguments again. There's umpteen other threads with that on!

That you're looking at the people who commute into the entire of Leeds as a city, as well as farms on the outskirts, whilst you're only measuring commuters from Oldham into the city council LA, excluding three of the main employment areas in the city.

How many people do you think commute to farms ffs?

And aren't you comparing commuters into PUAs anyway?

How many people do you think commute to farms ffs?

And aren't you comparing commuters into PUAs anyway?

Firstly, I've been waiting for ages to see wiggles' original Huddersfield commuter figures and he's still not posted it, so I don't expect to see the Barnsley ones.

Secondly, no he isn't.

As for farms, that was a by the by and showing that he's comparing just part of the urban centre of Manchester to the entire of Leeds. It excluded the whole of Trafford Park for example, which is the largest single employment area in GM outside the city centre.

You lied in the 'Leeds Population Growth' thread in our forum

I know you are saying now that it was your computer's fault, but either way, it's not good enough

You tend to use a lot of (unreferenced) data to make your arguments, and people trust you to be accurate and not, by accident or design, miscalculate or misrepresent a figure in order to mislead people

I'm sure you just think you're batting for Manchester, but it's not cricket

Thank fuck you aren't a mod
I simply copied and pasted the figures and got it wrong in an internet discussion. Sorry. There was actually a thread dedicated to employment figures and the like. Check in there and you'll see I'd posted the correct ones. I think a lot of people would have assumed the autosum button would autosum just like I did.

I can't really be arsed checking back on your old posts

If you did post the real figures in another thread, it makes it doubly suspicious that you posted different figures in a different thread and then proudly boasted of Manchester being X amount bigger than elsewhere

I'm not one to dwell on these things so I'll leave it at that

That you're looking at the people who commute into the entire of Leeds as a city, as well as farms on the outskirts, whilst you're only measuring commuters from Oldham into the city council LA, excluding three of the main employment areas in the city.

No. Even looking at workers from Bolton, who travel *anywhere* into the whole of greater manchester for work.. it amounts to 21%. Barnsley has 17,000 travelling in, which equates to 22.8%

Or 23,000 travel out of tameside into manchester-salford-trafford LA out of 96,254 = 23.8% This completely backs up what I said, in that, even barnsley shares a similar proportion of inter-work connectively to Leeds as the GM boroughs do to mancs, which explains why barnsley is in Leeds City Region.

Barnsley has 17,000 travelling in, which equates to 22.8%

Yeah but 12,000 of them are probably farmhands and milkmaids

No. Even looking at workers from Bolton, who travel *anywhere* into the whole of greater manchester for work.. it amounts to 21%. Barnsley has 17,000 travelling in, which equates to 22.8%

Or 23,000 travel out of tameside into manchester-salford-trafford LA out of 96,254 = 23.8% This completely backs up what I said, in that, even barnsley shares a similar proportion of inter-work connectively to Leeds as the GM boroughs do to mancs, which explains why barnsley is in Leeds City Region.

For the dozenth time wiggley, do you have the figures to back this up, along with your claims about Huddersfield? BTW, both Oldham and Tameside have had the largest increases in congestion of any local authorities in the country in the past few years, largely because of an increase in commuters.

Oh, and why have you suddenly switched to Bolton? You were talking about Oldham before! :lol:

Oldhams congestion is down to IKEA!

^^ That's Ashton fella!

Gah.

Near enough.

Oldhams congestion is down to IKEA!

You mean Ikea Manchester (Ashton-Under-Lyne)? :) Half of all the employment in central Ashton is now thanks to stuff built after the M60 was completed and a third of it is on the commercial park right at the junction! Most of the congestion is due to the amount of commuting in both directions.

From Crains.

Northern Way calls for Manchester hub
By Simon Binns

[QUOTE]
Regeneration body The Northern Way has published its plan for the creation of a major rail transport hub for the north of England based around central Manchester.

The organization, which is a £50m initiative between the north of England’s three regional development agencies, has said that if proposed improvements heavy rail links in and around Manchester were not made it could lead to the creation of bottlenecks that could cost the economy up to £16bn a year.

The report is part of an ongoing feasibility study into the creation of the Manchester Hub – a heavy rail network in and around Oxford Road, Piccadilly and Victoria stations. Plans include:- increasing capacity to meet a forecasted 39 per cent growth in traffic by 2020; achieving journey times between cities that are in excess of 60mph to make them more favourable to cars; improve access to growth areas such as Salford Quays within Greater Manchester’s city region and to improve the frequency of express services on Transpennine routes.

The Northern Way said that the proposed hub “is the greatest single strategic transport issue facing the North of England”.

“If the North is to play its part in national economic recovery, it will be through business growth in our major cities which are inter-connected by rail through Manchester,” said Professor David Begg, chairman of the Northern Transport Compact. “A joined-up North, provided with highly reliable, direct express services, is part of the vision that we have defined. Investment in Manchester is needed to deliver it.”

Councillor Matt Colledge, chair of Greater Manchester’s Integrated Transport Authority (GMITA), said: “Many trains are unacceptably overcrowded and there are an increasing number of gaps in services brought about by a lack of network capacity.

“We need to make sure that our network can meet current demand and encourage further growth by providing faster and more regular connections locally and to cities like Liverpool, Preston, Leeds and beyond.

Councillor Keith Whitmore, vice chair of GMITA, said: “The hub is the greatest single strategic transport issue for the economic future of the North and this report outlines just why.

“In the next few years we’ve looked to provide short-term answers, like longer trains, to bridge the gap between demand and capacity. The time has now come to start developing real and tangible long-term options for unlocking the full economic potential of the hub.

“We now look forward to working with Network Rail on the next phase of the study – to identify and develop the priorities for future investment.”



Manchester Hub improvements vital to the North's economic growth
24th April 2009


The Northern Way is today publishing the first stage of work considering how best to increase the capability of the rail network in and around central Manchester - the "Manchester Hub". The Manchester Hub is the greatest single strategic transport issue facing the North of England. It impacts on rail services across the North as most passenger train journeys linking the North's major cities together pass through the Hub and the movement of freight is also affected. It also impacts on Manchester commuter services.

Professor David Begg, Chairman of the Northern Transport Compact said:

"The most significant finding from our work is simply this. A feasible package of measures that includes greater connectivity across Manchester would bring between £13bn and £16bn economic benefits for the North of England and beyond."

"The benefits we have identified are widely spread across the North. Manchester Hub is not about one or two key flows. Growth in rail demand is highest in Manchester local commuter markets, and the greatest rates of benefits are on the main corridors linking the North's seven other City Regions with Manchester. There are also significant growth objectives related to the West Coast Main Line corridor and railfreight as well."

The Northern Way has identified 10 conditional outputs that Network Rail, in collaboration with their rail industry colleagues, should seek to meet when developing and then identifying the way forward for the Manchester Hub. These relate to:

1. Capacity and flexibility - more capacity and greater capability that can be used more flexibly to meet forecast 39% growth in demand by 2020. After this, or if there is higher growth, train lengthening rather than further infrastructure works would provide additional capacity.

2. Carbon Reduction - In terms of in-service operation the aim should be to contribute to the trajectory of reduced carbon emissions as set in national level overall targets for the transport sector.

3. Performance - performance of franchised rail services should be kept consistent with the targets set nationally by the Department for Transport.

4. Journey Times - to achieve regular interval city centre to city centre times that are recognisably faster than by car, and adopting 60 miles per hour as a benchmark, these are target journey times for the key corridors, from a Manchester City Centre station (either Victoria or Piccadilly) to the principal adjoining city regions:

Leeds 40 minutes (and Bradford 50 minutes, recognising route characteristics)
Sheffield 40 minutes
Chester 40 minutes
Liverpool 30 minutes
Preston 30 minutes.
Assuming dwell times at Leeds and York are also minimised, this would give journey times to Newcastle, Middlesbrough and Hull of 133, 124 and 101 minutes respectively.
5. Access to Growth Centres in Greater Manchester - Support growth across Greater Manchester by improving access to the key town centres and Salford Quays, as well as the growth areas in and around the centre of Manchester.

6. Connectivity to deliver economic benefits - improved connectivity should be achieved:

(a) by promoting direct cross-Manchester movements (for which train service provision and franchising costs will also generally experience cost efficiencies), and

(b) where this cannot be done, convenient passenger interchange should be achieved.

7. Manchester Airport - to maximise rail's share of journeys to the Airport, account needs to be taken of the potential to improve links from the Airport to destinations across the North as well as North Wales and the West and North Midlands. Connecting the Airport with each of the North's city regions, on a 7 day/week basis, service start and finish time should give 95% of air passengers the option of using rail for their inbound and outbound legs.

8. Trans Pennine - The three Trans Pennine rail corridors form the spine for City Region to City Region links across the North: to and from Liverpool and Central Lancashire in the west through to Tyne and Wear, Tees Valley and Hull and the Humber in the east via Leeds or Sheffield. The Trans Pennine corridors should support high frequency, high quality, regular interval core express services that link all of the Northern City Regions in a way designed to maximise the number of direct city region to city region linkages, and meet the enhanced journey times and performance targets.

9. North South Links and High Speed Rail - provision should be made to meet forecasts and requirements for a doubling of West Coast Main Line demand by 2026 and to accommodate High Speed 2 options to and beyond central Manchester, together with a possible parkway station.

10. Freight - Provision for a doubling of freight tonnage from existing and new origins and destinations to/from the multi-modal terminals at Trafford Park and elsewhere in the North West by 2030.

Professor Begg added:

"If the North is to play its part in national economic recovery, it will be through business growth in our major cities which are inter-connected by rail through Manchester. A joined-up North, provided with highly reliable, direct express services, is part of the vision that we have defined. Investment in Manchester is needed to deliver it."

"Manchester Hub is about a long term solution to a problem that affects the development of national, regional and local rail services. This is the question that Network Rail needs to address."

"Given the scale of benefits on offer, it will be right for Network Rail to consider a full range of options in taking the next stage of work forward. Our work demonstrates Manchester Hub is a challenge to which it is worth devoting considerable resources."

Steven Broomhead, Chief Executive of the North West Regional Development Agency, said:

"The Agency welcomes this first phase report. Investment in the Manchester Rail Hub is essential for effective rail operations not only in the Northwest but the entire North of England. It should help to unlock a number of key drivers of the economy, including faster journey times between our northern cities and extra freight and passenger capacity. Long term planning is essential to deliver rail infrastructure provision and we look forward to working with Network Rail on the second phase of this report".

ENDS



Media contacts:

Mark Fuller
Linstock Communications

T: 020 7089 2089
M: 07952 286 223
mark@linstockcommunications.com



Nicola Hughes
The Northern Way

T: 0191 229 6752
M: 07771 805 949
nicola.hughes@thenorthernway.co.uk



Notes to editors:

The Northern Way is a unique initiative, bringing together the cities and regions of the North of England to work together to improve the sustainable economic development of the North towards the level of more prosperous regions.

Formed as a partnership between the three northern Regional Development Agencies (Yorkshire Forward, Northwest Regional Development Agency and One NorthEast), we also work with local authorities, universities, the private sector and other partners to secure a strong coalition in support of this goal.

The Northern Way aims to influence policy and delivery at a local, city region, regional and national level, to join up thinking and encourage collaboration.

On 4th October 2007, the then Department for Transport Minister of State, Rosie Winterton, responding to the work of the Northern Way, announced that a study would be undertaken to develop proposals to enhance the capacity and functionality of the Manchester Hub. The Manchester Hub Study is being undertaken in two phases overseen by a Department for Transport-chaired Sponsors' Group, the other members being the Northern Way, Greater Manchester Integrated Transport Authority and Passenger Transport Executive, and Network Rail.

The Manchester Hub Sponsors' Group asked that the Northern Way lead the Phase 1 study. The Phase 2 work is being led by Network Rail. Producing the Manchester Hub Conditional Output Statement has been the primary purpose of the Phase 1 study. It pulls together evidence about how the economic performance of the North is affected by transport links and in addition has developed new evidence on the specific economic case for investment in the Manchester Hub. The outputs are described as "conditional" because achieving them depends on Network Rail finding it possible to devise solutions which are affordable and represent value for money.

The Phase 2 work is focussing on the development and assessment of rail options to meet the Conditional Output Statement.

The Manchester Hub is the network of 14 rail corridors that link and cross in and around central Manchester. These are:

Southport via Wigan
Preston and the North via Bolton
Blackburn
Bradford via Rochdale
Yorkshire & the North East via Leeds
Glossop / Hadfield
Marple / Romiley
Yorkshire & the East Midlands via Sheffield
Buxton
London, Birmingham and the South (via West Coast Main Line)
Manchester Airport
Chester via Northwich
Liverpool via Irlam
Liverpool / Chester via Warrington

Manchester? I could think of a more central transport hub for the Northern Way ;)

Manchester? I could think of a more central transport hub for the Northern Way ;)

It's not about creating a hub, it's about investing in the hub that already exists. Whether it's geographically central or not, Manchester operates as a central point for rail services between the Lancashire and Yorkshire cities and investment in its rail capacity would benefit all major towns and cities in the north.

Manchester? I could think of a more central transport hub for the Northern Way ;)

Sheffield.. :lol:

It's not about creating a hub, it's about investing in the hub that already exists. Whether it's geographically central or not, Manchester operates as a central point for rail services between the Lancashire and Yorkshire cities and investment in its rail capacity would benefit all major towns and cities in the north.


command economics garnered economic advantage over your competitor cities.... where have we heared that before?

command economics garnered economic advantage over your competitor cities.... where have we heared that before?

Think what you want Tony, but that fact that it takes two hours to get to Leeds or Sheffield from Liverpool is not good for your economy.

To be honest I think we can remove Vale Royal and Congleton from the region.

And Warrington.

Fuck, I just noticed that post is really old.