edit: ^^ They may be minorities in the same way that Shia's are a minority in Pakistan.

edit out.

who me??? how can i do that??

^^ No, I had edited out my own post after you quoted the post you were referring to. I have edited it again...

edit: ^^ They may be minorities in the same way that Shia's are a minority in Pakistan.

minorities means non-muslims as a whole because we only see posts about non-muslims here.

my only point is that i found it offensive and i would be thankful if this post gets deleted.

minorities means non-muslims as a whole because we only see posts about non-muslims here.

my only point is that i found it offensive and i would be thankful if this post gets deleted.

Minority doesn't mean a non-Muslim only, in my view only Sunnis are a majority in Pakistan. Often times violence has been perpetrated against other religions or sects. And minorities also include ethnicities, such as the Kalash people.

I'm sure Pakia didn't mean to imply that Ismailis are non-Muslims, and no one took it that way. Just saying :)

Btw, can you explain what is the "difference" between Ismailis and other Muslim sects?

Minority doesn't mean a non-Muslim only, in my view only Sunnis are a majority in Pakistan. Often times violence has been perpetrated against other religions or sects. And minorities also include ethnicities, such as the Kalash people.

I'm sure Pakia didn't mean to imply that Ismailis are non-Muslims, and no one took it that way. Just saying :)

Btw, can you explain what is the "difference" between Ismailis and other Muslim sects?

oh thats cool but u know how a person feels sometimes about something, i kinda feel that way. thats why agar yeh post delete ho gaya tou mere dil ko tasali hogi. :)

Btw, can you explain what is the "difference" between Ismailis and other Muslim sects?[/QUOTE]

sure. the difference is tha after hazrat Muhammad(S.A.W) we believe in Hazrat Ali(A.S) as the imam just like shias. The difference is that after the sixth imam, we (us and shias) split and to this day we(ismailis) believe in the direct descendants of hazrat Muhammad(S.A.W) as our imam and our present imam is Shah Karim Al-Hussaini(A.S), popularly known as Prince Karim Aga Khan.

Granted Pakistan is vastly muslim, some 97% but the other 3% do have rights just as any of us to be represented and acknowledged for their achievements in every sphere of Pakistan's heritage/culture and achievements.

Lets give them their long overdue respect and credit.

I'd like to start a thread where all of us can post news and such regarding our non-muslim Pakistan brethren and give them an opportunity to vent their complaints (and praises where due) about us and our treatment towards them.

We do have beautiful churches, gurdwaras, mandirs, temples in Pakistan. Lets have them posted with some background, so more and more of us can appreciate their history and contribution to Pakistan culture.

Hope we've the courage to admit past mistakes and wisdom not to repeat them.

it sure is about non-muslims. see^^

My apologies, didn't mean to offend anyone. Definitely not referring to Ismailies or Shias as non-muslims.

Just a case of getting carried away in my zeal to show people & their religious places who generally are marginalized in our country. Muslims or otherwise.

Mods have full authority to delete as they see fit. Thanks Brighty for making my case.

My apologies, didn't mean to offend anyone. Definitely not referring to Ismailies or Shias as non-muslims.

Just a case of getting carried away in my zeal to show people & their religious places who generally are marginalized in our country. Muslims or otherwise.

Mods have full authority to delete as they see fit. Thanks Brighty for making my case.

thank You very much brother. i appreciate it. :) there have been cases of sectarian tensions but at the end of the day we are all brothers. so how do we delete that post about ismailis???

bXXt94AU8n0

Ashes of Pakistani Hindus await Ganges salvation (http://www.dawn.net/wps/wcm/connect/Dawn%20Content%20Library/dawn/news/pakistan/sindh/ashes-pakistani-hindus-await-ganges-salvation--qs)

Wednesday, 21 Jan, 2009 | 08:38 AM PST |

KARACHI: Ayaz Baloch claps his hands once and opens the door to a stale room in what was once a Karachi library, saying he needs to warn the Hindu souls inside that a living being is entering.

Baloch is the caretaker of a largely deserted cremation ground in Karachi, where the remains of about 130 minority Hindus are gathering dust in a peculiar footnote to the country's oft-strained ties with India.

'It started more than 30 years ago,' says Mohammed Pervez, a guard at the facility in Karachi's oldest slum Golimar, who says the area's Muslim poor have kept watch over the ashes for decades.

'These pots started piling up as the dead had asked in their wills that their ashes be immersed in the Ganges river, but their families could not get visas from India and left them here in trust,' he said.

Three decades on, with relations again tense between the neighbours in the wake of the attacks on Mumbai which New Delhi has pinned on Pakistan-based militants, the urns are still here.

The dead are now in danger of being lost and forgotten as the identification tags on the urns have started to fade, prompting the caretakers to launch a frantic search for the families of the deceased.

Mohandas, who asked that only his first name be used to protect his family's privacy, said he was astonished to finally find the remains of his uncle Vishnu, who died in 1979, at the Karachi facility.

'We came here to find him but it was nearly impossible. The writing on many of the tags has completely disappeared, especially on the older containers,' he said.

'My father tried hard to fulfil the last wish of his older brother, but could not get an Indian visa. My father also wanted to be immersed in the Ganges after his death but seeing how difficult it is, he changed his mind.'

Mohandas said his father's ashes were eventually bathed in the Indus river in southern Pakistan, which Hindus regard as holy.

Hindus believe the immersion of human remains in the Ganges, which flows from the Himalayas to the Bay of Bengal, leads to salvation for the soul.

Pakistan's Hindus, who make up only about two per cent of the overwhelmingly Muslim country's population of 160 million, usually immerse the remains of their dead in the Indus or the Arabian Sea.

But some Hindus here hope they will be brought to the Indian town of Haridwar after death for a final cleansing in the Ganges.

Lachman Jaisinghani, a leader of Karachi's small Hindu community, says that getting permission from India is difficult, as the authorities there want proof that the deceased has family still living in Haridwar.

'Normally India issues visas to only those who have relations in Haridwar. These deceased made wills but there is no proof,' Jaisinghani said.

Even if the relatives have evidence of family ties across the border, the sad state of the identification tags makes it hard to claim their loved ones' remains, according to the cremation ground's chief custodian Maharaj Ramnath.

'More than a generation has passed since the deaths of some of the people here, so it is very difficult for the families now to identify the ashes,' Ramnath told AFP.

Each of the urns, capped with white or red cloth, has a tag bearing the name of the deceased and the date of death. But much of the writing is illegible.

Ramnath says the facility's caretakers launched a public appeal in the hopes of finding relatives of some of the deceased, but their leaflet campaign yielded few results.

Another Hindu leader here, Hari Motwani, says he fears that even those families who have both the right ashes and the required documentation, getting visas will be complicated following the carnage in India's financial centre.

'Things had improved a lot before the Mumbai attacks, but now we are all anxious about the future, as the visa regime always becomes difficult whenever tension grips the two countries,' said Motwani.

Ramnath says despite the current friction between India and Pakistan, he will not stop fighting for the souls of the deceased.

'We have again applied to get permission from the Indian authorities to go to Haridwar to immerse these ashes,' he said.

'We hope it will happen sooner or later.'

I know Ganges flows into Bangladesh as well and there are millions of Bangladeshi Hindus, who immerse their loves ones remains in their part of Ganges.

So why don't they take them to Bangladesh side of Ganges. It may not be Varnasi but still is Ganges!!

Ashes of Pakistani Hindus await Ganges salvation (http://www.dawn.net/wps/wcm/connect/Dawn%20Content%20Library/dawn/news/pakistan/sindh/ashes-pakistani-hindus-await-ganges-salvation--qs)

This is DISGUSTING!!! :no: India should atleast let the last wishes of the Pakistani Hindus be fulfilled!!

http://www.app.com.pk/photo/photo_lib/13-02-2009/8ca5ada2abc90eef3cf5b789f5363c78.jpg

http://www.jalrox.com/quetta%20fort/slides/IM000732.JPG

http://www.jalrox.com/quetta%20fort/slides/IM000723.JPG

http://www.jalrox.com/quetta%20fort/slides/IM000727.JPG

http://www.jalrox.com/quetta%20fort/slides/IM000729.JPG

http://www.jalrox.com/quetta%20fort/slides/IM000728.JPG

http://www.jalrox.com/quetta%20fort/slides/IM000725.JPG

Ashes of Pakistani Hindus await Ganges salvation (http://www.dawn.net/wps/wcm/connect/Dawn%20Content%20Library/dawn/news/pakistan/sindh/ashes-pakistani-hindus-await-ganges-salvation--qs)
I just read it and it's pretty sad. Pakistan thankfully never makes it difficult for the Sikhs who visit Pakistan.

^^ Beautiful Hindu temple there Pakia!

That temple is really good looking even in its dilapidated state, I hope it gets restored.

^^ yes our government needs to renovate this temple cuz' minorities need to be protected and they shud feel the same as other citezens.

http://www.statesman.com.pk/pictures/Pix13-84.jpg

http://www.statesman.com.pk/pictures/Pix13-85.jpg

http://www.statesman.com.pk/pictures/Pix13-86.jpg

http://www.statesman.com.pk/pictures/APP73-13Islamabad.jpg

^^:lol::lol: "HOLI MOLI"

http://www.statesman.com.pk/pictures/APP73-13Islamabad.jpg

Aren't you supposed to make gay comments? You're hitting on girls.

Aren't you supposed to make gay comments? You're hitting on girls.

can we let it go?

:ohno:

yea man seriously.. comments lik that r so wrong..

Aey Ramo lal....!!!

....Yaad karo wo Holi ki raat jab tum nay kaha tha... Holi... Holi.... ki raat hai


:rofl:

^^ Gandi baat...:nono:

http://www.statesman.com.pk/pictures/APP73-13Islamabad.jpg

Paki Im disappointed in you..She's not Cute .. She looks like okay I dont wanna be mean but she isnt good.

Post your own picture here on this forum.

Paki Im disappointed in you..She's not Cute .. She looks like okay I dont wanna be mean but she isnt good.

Sorry I can't be helped, love a girl with nuthnee! :cheers:

@ plasma i did posted once and I think I didnt get a bad response.. Check this for further info TADA

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=735420&page=29

Sorry I can't be helped, love a girl with nuthnee! :cheers:

Sadly i dont have one =(.. lol Just flirting around.. :cheers:

One of my posts got deleted.. =( Why why why?Talk about freedom of speech eh?

Sadly i dont have one =(.. lol Just flirting around.. :cheers:

One of my posts got deleted.. =( Why why why?Talk about freedom of speech eh?

are you talking about the one that mentions a religion/sect?

If so its because it started to engulf into a flame.

One of my posts got deleted.. =( Why why why?Talk about freedom of speech eh?

so u didn't hav a chance to read my reply???? :ohno:

@ plasma i did posted once and I think I didnt get a bad response.. Check this for further info TADA

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=735420&page=29

What? Why me? I said something? :dunno:

What? Why me? I said something? :dunno:

lol i meant indus .. I dont know from where the fk ur name came outta my mouth.. Anywho it was for u!
Indus probably wanted to see what this bigmouth girl looks like cause i said that nose-ring girl isnt cute!

@ townboy
No kb didnt let me get enlightened.. :p

@ kb
Umm okay!

@ townboy
No kb didnt let me get enlightened.. :p



oh so u want me to send u a message abt ur doubts????:)

Paki Im disappointed in you..She's not Cute .. She looks like okay I dont wanna be mean but she isnt good.
Well, she has a huge tummy that needs some lovin'.

And what discussion got deleted? Can I know about it? PM!

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20090508/capt.12a5228fa4f741a0abe6dc1dc4ee76e1.pakistan_xbkb103.jpg
Pakistani people from Sikh community who fled Mingora and Buner in the troubled valley of Swat prepare spinach for lunch for refugees who take refuge at a Sikh temple in Hasanabdal, 45 kilometers (28 miles) from Islamabad, Pakistan, on Friday, May 8, 2009. Pakistani jets screamed over a Taliban-controlled town Friday and bombed suspected militant positions as hundreds of thousands fled in terror and other trapped residents appealed for a pause in the fighting so they could escape.
http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20090508/capt.c88696e1c09e4e1eb2ccbe3fb265f0e7.aptopix_pakistan_xbkb102.jpg?x=256&y=345&q=85&sig=j1LreR3FsYTEHcRFHv49BQ--
A Pakistani from Sikh community who fled Mingora and Buner in the troubled valley of Swat listens to a government official as he takes refuge in a Sikh temple in Hasanabdal, 45 kilometers (28 miles) from Islamabad, Pakistan, on Friday, May 8, 2009.
http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20090508/capt.956b87f572004ceca65a136ce82cf716.pakistan_xbkb101.jpg?
Pakistani people from Sikh community who fled Mingora and Buner in the troubled valley of Swat, take refuge in their temple in Hasanabdal, 45 kilometers (28 miles) from Islamabad, Pakistan, on Friday, May 8, 2009.

are the Kalasha people chitral people?

^^ NO, the kalasha are descendants of alexander's army... rest of chitrali ppl r from central asia...

^^ do they live in the same area? And why do they wear the same traditional clothes?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/MacedonEmpire.jpg

as you see, Alexander's empire also had conquest in central asia. So chitralis may have greek blood as well

^^ do they live in the same area? And why do they wear the same traditional clothes?

how could u be such a dumbass??? kalash hav their different traditional clothes... havent u EVER seen kalash clothes???? n plus they were defeated by muslim rulers, so they fled to the valleys of bumburet, birir and rumbur to preserve their culture and religion...

:master:

@-SchizoPhrenic


sadly i missed your pic.i was not around that time, but why you removed it?

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/c7286f804e44af3dafb8ff1a5a504e19/1.jpg?MOD=AJPERES
Pakistani Roman Catholic nuns visit the site of the suicide car bomb a day after the attack in Lahore. Pakistani Taliban claimed responsibility for a suicide attack in Lahore to avenge a military offensive in the northwest and vowed further deadly strikes. A van carrying high-intensity explosives hit a police checkpost outside the offices of the Rescue-15 and the Inter-Services Intelligence on Lawrence Road killing 26 people and leaving more than 251 injured.-AFP Photo/ Arif Ali.

Why were they visiting a suicide attack site? :dunno:

they were feeling suicidal......

(pun intended)

I read in news paper that 10 deers are dead bcoz of the voice of that blast, and loins in the zoo have stopped eating

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/images/2009/06/01/20090601_e06.jpg
ISLAMABAD: Participants of a rally celebrating allocation of five percent quota for minorities in government jobs drink water from taps set up by the CDA. shabbir hussain :applause:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009\06\01\story_1-6-2009_pg11_9

Hindu Muslim Sikh Issai, sub hain bhai bhai.

Did you just make that up?

If its from the state or some other literary person, i have a question to ask,

why can't they come up with something less lame! :sly:

Did they not have the quota before?

Hindu Muslim Sikh Issai, sub hain bhai bhai.

Did you just make that up?

If its from the state or some other literary person, i have a question to ask,

why can't they come up with something less lame! :sly:

Did they not have the quota before?

This quote been around since pre-partition days to curb communal strifes and comes up every so often.

Lame? maybe but effective? yes

Quotas are bad idea, IMO

Quotas are bad idea, IMO

Not they're not, our minorities are disadvantaged, and being only around only 3%-5% of the population, they deserve a little affirmative action. I know what minorities have to put up with in this country.

I read in news paper that 10 deers are dead bcoz of the voice of that blast, and loins in the zoo have stopped eating

Yeah man I saw an elephant fly this morning and I wasn't even high....:sly:

I read in news paper that 10 deers are dead bcoz of the voice of that blast, and loins in the zoo have stopped eating

Don't know abt deers but 4 peacocks were killed & hundreds of birds were injured as a result of blast

I didn't know we had African-Pakistanis living in pakistan!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3118/2684230019_5c92d7346f.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2116/2382965674_eabe40da9b.jpg?v=0

Yeah they are called "Sheedi" and they live in Karachi in Lyari. :yes:

i was really excited when i heard abt them for the first time.... lik a couple of yrs ago.. gotta holla at ma homies sometime.. :lol:

Yeah they are called "Sheedi" and they live in Karachi in Lyari. :yes:

And along the Makran Coast of Balochistan.

http://statesman.com.pk/pictures/Pix14-48.jpg

Ankhain Mathay Per = Eyes on the Forehead

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/3728526265_8ca477398b_o.jpg

A beautiful Kalash green-eyed girl from Romboor, Kalash valleys, Chitral, Pakistan

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/3728527571_c38ba76812_o.jpg

Khupase, Kalash Head Dress, Chitral

The very colorful Kalash Head Dress, Khupase, the Kalash women wear it.

It is a bit similar to the Ladakhi women head dress " Piraq".

It consists of colorful beads, sea shells etc.

Enjoy the marvels of Pakistan.

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/3719017821_c1a3b872a3_o.jpg

A Shy Kalash girl, from Hindukush, Chitral

The beauty of Hindukush, Kalash, the mysterious tribes.

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/3717177538_bce6576c41_o.jpg

A Kalash girl, Hindukush, Pakistan

An innocent face from Hindukush, a Kalash girl.

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/3672570480_2495fa2e7a_o.jpg

Kalash girls from Hindukush, Chitral

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/3706621651_80db4194ef_o.jpg

Kalash Kids, from Birir valley, Chitral

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/3711439633_465482715c_o.jpg

A face from Hindukush, Chitral

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/3483352387_f536ab65d8_o.jpg

Kalash, the story tellers of Hindukush

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/3392336357_935d99b63e_o.jpg

Kalash girls from Hindukush, Pakistan

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/3435635396_c936d69231_o.jpg

A face from Hindukush, Chitral

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/3420880707_2fd8901faa_o.jpg

The mystery of Hindukush, Kalash tribes

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/3387106177_ab5cc555d9_o.jpg

A Kalash Cherub, Hindukush, Kalash valleys

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/3274148187_921a3398a3_o.jpg

Kalash, the innocense of Hindukush

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/3272775056_9bebef8353_o.jpg

A Kalash girl from Romboor, Kalash valleys of Chitral, Hindukush, Pakistan

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/3274038708_24101ddb77_o.jpg

Kalash, the mystery of Hindukush

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/2808401972_f4d7fd1436_o.jpg

Roombor Valley

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/2813742114_d882a140ff_o.jpg

Kalash girl, Romboor,Hindukush, Pakistan

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/2813740372_b29724b83c_o.jpg

Kalash girls, Romboor,Hindukush, Pakistan

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/2651941003_d2ecc483ce_o.jpg

Kalash family

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/2673925991_5c5edbabf2_o.jpg

A Kalash cherub

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/2679500888_699e5ecd54_o.jpg

Kalash girl from Hindukush, Pakistan

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/2628326897_bf242d476b_o.jpg

Kalash

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/2570399430_9ce76f3bf1_o.jpg

Kalash festival Joshi, Bamborate

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/2564563243_3cac22858d_o.jpg

Two young girls from ancient tribes of Kalash, at spring festival celebrations

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/2564561949_37a7e16c28_o.jpg

Kalash festivities

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/2557641857_44f3c7ebf8_o.jpg

Kalash Spring festival in Hindukush

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/k2rulez/2558464838_cd2c3a1cdc_o.jpg

Kalash Spring festival in Hindukush, Pakistan

Dont know if this has been posted here before, but this is freakin awesome.
Especially, our Sikh jawan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy0S6iqLwXw

Thats crazy man! who would have ever expected that!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4008/4203416888_7daac6e202_o.jpg
Guru Ka Lahore is a cluster of three Gurdwaras near Basantgarh village in Bilaspur district of Himachal Pradesh, about 12 kilometers north of Anandpur Sahib in Punjab, which are located at the site of Guru Gobind Singh's marriage. A fourth Gurdwara at the spot which played a part in the wedding is located about a Kilometer away.

In keeping with Panjabi tradition the betrothal of young Gobind Rai had taken place during the lifetime of his father Guru Tegh Bahadur, but the marriage had been postponed because of the elder Guru's martyrdom in November 1675. Early in 1677, Jito Ji's father, Bhai Hari Jas, a resident of Lahore, came to Chakk Nannki (later Anandpur Sahib) and proposed that the bridegroom's marriage party should go to Lahore with the marriage being performed at an early and suitable date.

The elders in the holy family considered that it was still not politically advisable to go to Lahore. The young Guru said, we shall create a 'Lahore' here. The bride's family may come and reside in it, and the marriage may take place as agreed. Consequently, a temporary camp was set up near Basantgarh to look like part of Lahore. The site was called Guru Ka Lahore. Bhai Hari Jas brought his family and relations to the temporary 'Lahore' and the marriage took place on 23rd Har 1734 Bikrami/21st June 1677. Even after the camp had been closed down and diassembled, the place continued to be considered holy. A Gurdwara was established at the camp site to which two more were added later close to some nearby springs.

Interesting, I thought!!

http://www.app.com.pk/photo/photo_lib/25-12-2009/077172da8404b83279b0f111255f54f2.jpg

Nice to have here such open minded people, to show and respect the religious minorities of Pakistan! Thx you very much for your work here!

edit

Its really encouraging to read the posts & know there are some liberal minded people in Pakistan. I only recently discovered my Grandmother from my Mum's side is originally from Lahore. I always thought it was odd that she had no family besides her sister but didn't think much of it. At 16 she saw her entire family butchered and managed to escape with her older sister, luckily taken in my grandfathers family when they reached Jalandhar. She just recently returned from a religious sikh yatra there, her first time there since 1947. It was an emotional trip for her but the people were mostly welcoming. My dads side is all originally from Rawalpindi, so technically l'm 3/4 Pakistani! All I've also got many other friends here in the UK Punjabi Hindus/Sikhs & Sindhi Hindus orginally from Pakistan and likewise a couple of Punjabi Muslim friends from the Indian side. Were all planning on going to both India and Pakistan next year, can't wait!

Also just another general question, my friends Mothers family are originally from NWFP. some village area near the border with Afghanistan. Her mothers Hindu and speaks fluent pashto, all her side of the family are very pale, with light brown hair, mostly with blue/green eyes. So are they pathan's or kailash?? Her Mother family call themselves hindu pathans but is there such a thing??

Hey,yes there are pathan hindus of course (to this day there is a large sikh/hindu community in peshawar and parts of nwfp). Only after those taliban people took over, did these minorities suffer (had to pay some tax) for short time being but after the army took over swat, kohat, and other areas of nwfp the situation was back to normal. Sikhs are respected alot in Pak (pak is more than 50 percent punjabis so bond exists and the guru is respected) and hindus (i only met some in karachi) but i know in kohat, quetta, and peshawar (my dad hails from there) people live as brothers. There are sikhs in the army and I believe one is some high ranking official.

And if you are looking for hindu pashtuns? look at the kapoors, they hail from peshawar and hence kareena and her siblings milky white skin or that actor neil mukesh or whatever.

And Kalash people are limit to chitral and observe their culture strictly and are very insular. There are no hindu origin Kalash (complete different culture and faith). And the whole green eyes and fair skin? Very common in northern and western pak and gilgit-baltistan/kashmir region and spread out in other regions of Pakistan due to migration and intermarrying.

And enjoy your trip when you go there!

@purenyork123

really nice to see what you are writing. I personally think that only Taliban is the problem according to treatment of religios minorities.

taliban? .... yes they are not only problem for minoroties .. actually they are a problem for all Pakistani. ( but their time is over... all pakistani hate them because they are worse than animals )

purenyork123

Thanks l'm sure l'll have a grt experience there. Its surprising looking at the pictures here that the landscape, scale of development, people etc look very similar to North India and for some reason l found that surprising, expected it to be more different. I was teaching English in Delhi for 2 years and it looks identical to Lahore almost, so l'm sure l'll feel at home. As for the blue/green eye, l also saw that quite a few times across India and members of my family have that look, but her family are all exceptionally white, like pale for a white person and they look totally european until you see them in sarees and salwar kameez then u think ok maybe they are south asian!

Oh yeah and another question, l was wondering if there was any hope of tracing my Grandmothers second cousins, they were kidnapped and converted in 47, in the build up to partition. Last my Grandmas knew they both married living in some village around Multan- she knows no more. I think after watching Khamosh Pani recently l'm on mission to try and trace them!

Just one last question, going by the comments on here l'm reassured l don't need to do this but many of my UK Pak friends have advised myself and Hindu/Sikh friends to change our names and pass ourselves off as muslim! They've even given me the name Asif Anwar! They are deadly serious though and say it would dangerous to say otherwise besides one friend who said it wouldn't cause a problem and it would have a novelty factor as there are so few Sikhs/Hindus left in Pakistan. I'm confused!

Just one last question, going by the comments on here l'm reassured l don't need to do this but many of my UK Pak friends have advised myself and Hindu/Sikh friends to change our names and pass ourselves off as muslim! They've even given me the name Asif Anwar! They are deadly serious though and say it would dangerous to say otherwise besides one friend who said it wouldn't cause a problem and it would have a novelty factor as there are so few Sikhs/Hindus left in Pakistan. I'm confused!

No need to change name, the people are really friendly.

Unless you are planning to stalk on the taliban or trying to blow/ staboage a secured army or ISI base and a undercover RAW agent then you dont need to change the name haha.

Who is telling you all this? have your paki friends even visited Pak or simply making assumptions? No one will look at you or care. If Icelanders can walk in pak (look at tourists thread) then im sure no one cares. You will be fine and you will get preferential treatments because of your indian lineage.

I DONT KNOW IF YOU KNOW THIS but in that friendship test between pakistan and india in lahore ALL HOTELS WERE LITERALLY FREE OR DEAD CHEAP FOR INDIANS. No one hates or despise Indians in Pak lol...nor have an obsession of India(some just dont like the govt like indians dont like ours but the common people dont give a heck).

The Zikris (Arabic: ذكرى‎), often called the Mahdavia are a branch of Islam concentrated in Makran, Balochistan (Pakistan and Iran), that follows the teachings of Muhammad Jaunpuri. The name Zikri comes from the Arabic word dhikr (pronounced "Zikr" in South Asia). The word is also commonly used to describe Sufi worship.

Contents [hide]
1 Practices
2 Socio-Economics
2.1 Persecution
3 External
Practices
The content of their prayer, which they call Zikr-e-Elahi, refers to a person's worship of Allah; they are generally regarded as mainstream Muslims. Zikris, like mainstream Muslims, are religiously obligated to pray five times daily.

Zikri perform all five Islamic tenants - the Hajj, Roza (fasting) Zakkat and all Shahadah. Zikiris have been performing their version of the Zikir-e-Elahi for well over one thousand years.

The Zikris perform the standard Islamic Hajj but moreover they also make pilgrimage (ziyarat) to the mountain where Imam Mehdi Alle Salam stayed there called Koh-e-Murad (Mountain of Desire), in Persian). The mountain is located in the city of Turbat in Balochistan. They celebrate ziyarat on the 27th night of Ramadan.

The cultural and commercial significance of the Zikri festivals are same as other Baloch .Their religious leaders – Mullais – believe that the Zikri prayer is ‘a bit different than the others’. Their zikr khanas – they have few places of worship, unlike the growing number of mosques across Makran – are like mosques but do not have pulpits pointing towards Mecca. Instead, there are stones and mats on which they sit and do the zikr. However, on a visit to the prayer places at Koh-i-Murad, a few copies of the Qur’an were found on the shelves.

Towards the end of Ramadan, a huge assembly called the Choghan takes place at a hilltop in the region to commemorate the occasion. This assembly is not a substitute for Hajj.

Socio-Economics
Most Zikris live in Baluchistan, where they are the majority religious group in the district of Gwadar. There are also large groups of Zikris in the Pakistani city of Karachiand a few numbered in the Pakistani province of Sindh, and in Iran. Many of the other smaller groups live in Karachi and Makran, although the Zikris, for example, are predominantly in south-western Baluchistan where their spiritual center, Koh-i-Murad, is located. However, they are becoming less visible, fearing that they will also be designated a ‘minority’, against their will like Ahmadis .

The Zikris of Balochistan – a predominantly Baloch ethnic group in Makran and the adjoining areas – fear they will suffer the fate of the Ahmadis, as there are demands from certain groups for their designation as a non-Muslim minority.

Most Zikris are poor peasants or nomads who enjoy coming to Koh-i-Murad as others elsewhere enjoy visiting shrines. The number of Zikris is not known since they identify themselves as Muslims. It is estimated that there are several thousands living in Pakistan. In addition, there are huge Zikri communities in Karachi, Las Bela and Quetta. There are more Zikri Baloch in Karachi than anywhere else, but many have recently migrated for economic reasons, while staying in touch with their native Makran.

Persecution
Zikris had traditionally been victimized in Pakistan, Iran and in Afghani Balochistan, and the recent emphasis on Sunni and scripturalist Islam encouraged the JUI to make inroads into Baloch regions. NGOs, including the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) and local activists, are creating a greater awareness of the Zikri predicament and aim to forestall a majoritarian backlash against this scattered and impoverished community. Recently, police protection has been provided to Zikri visitors.
http://www.albaloch.com/
http://www.30-days.net/muslims/wp-content/uploads/p46_d30zikri_gwadar.jpg

http://30-days.net/muslims/muslims-in/asia-south-central/zikri-baluch/

Lahore and Delhi are virtually identical cities and at the time of separation both sides had to make a choice of the city. Pakistan chose Lahore and India Delhi but they are very much alike minus the population Delhi being close to 20million and Lahore only 7million but the square miles of Lahore are significant hence Lahore is also Chicago's sister city.

^^ same with Karachi and Bombay! also Islamabad & chundigarth because they are both new!

i personally like gurgaon and bangaluru of all indian cities..

Yeah my friend Yasmin is the only l know who has travelled across both India and Pakistan and noticed many similarities despite 60 years since partition. Her pictures of Delhi and Lahore & Islamabad and Chandigargh in particular were like the same cities. As for my UK Pak friends they do visit every 1 or 2 years, which is why l was worried because of their advice. I don't think the situation would arise often anyway were l would have to identify myself and l am not religious at all, so don't wear a kara or anything. They said we would all just look like Pakistanis from the West. My friend Yasmin who's Sindhi Muslim, whilst travelling around India was taken as Punjabi, Sindhi Hindu, Kashmiri, Gujararti to Marathi- so just shows most people don't know the difference! As for my Grandma, her experience was mostly welcoming- just two dodgy incidents- one when she was out in a group together with a UK Sikh priest- who had a turban, kara, beard etc- and they had abuses hurled at them by a group of young men. The other incident was when she ordered some fruit (ordered alot to be given to charities) and the shopkeeper assuming she was local asked home delivery address, she explained she was a sikh pilgrim- he was then quite abusive. BUT she and about 30 other women from the local temple in the UK gave on average 6 lakh Pakistani rupees each to local charities and they were very welcoming as were the hotel staff and people who helped with transport from gurudwara to gurudwara. As for finding my Grandma's cousins l've given up on the idea after talking it over with a few people, probably not wise to dig up the past and l'm sure they've moved on.

Karachi is far better than Bombay. Karachi's slums are at least made of concrete and are less crowded (as hard as it is to believe that there could be any place more congested) than Dharvi and also which area of Bombay can compare to Defence, Clifton, North Nazimabad, KDA or PECHS in Karachi?

^^ Yeaa, but the Economy can also be compared. Bombay has a lot more industry and Factories.

^^ Yeaa, but the Economy can also be compared. Bombay has a lot more industry and Factories.

Mumbai is the most congested metropolitian city of the world.......

Also. Mumbai's population is 2.5 crores & the population of Karachi is 1.6 crores.......

Karachi is far better than Mumbai.........:yes:

Mumbai is the most congested metropolitian city of the world.......

Also. Mumbai's population is 2.5 crores & the population of Karachi is 1.6 crores.......

Karachi is far better than Mumbai.........:yes:

i concur based on facts statistics and ground reality :)

Yeah my friend Yasmin is the only l know who has travelled across both India and Pakistan and noticed many similarities despite 60 years since partition. Her pictures of Delhi and Lahore & Islamabad and Chandigargh in particular were like the same cities. As for my UK Pak friends they do visit every 1 or 2 years, which is why l was worried because of their advice. I don't think the situation would arise often anyway were l would have to identify myself and l am not religious at all, so don't wear a kara or anything. They said we would all just look like Pakistanis from the West. My friend Yasmin who's Sindhi Muslim, whilst travelling around India was taken as Punjabi, Sindhi Hindu, Kashmiri, Gujararti to Marathi- so just shows most people don't know the difference! As for my Grandma, her experience was mostly welcoming- just two dodgy incidents- one when she was out in a group together with a UK Sikh priest- who had a turban, kara, beard etc- and they had abuses hurled at them by a group of young men. The other incident was when she ordered some fruit (ordered alot to be given to charities) and the shopkeeper assuming she was local asked home delivery address, she explained she was a sikh pilgrim- he was then quite abusive. BUT she and about 30 other women from the local temple in the UK gave on average 6 lakh Pakistani rupees each to local charities and they were very welcoming as were the hotel staff and people who helped with transport from gurudwara to gurudwara. As for finding my Grandma's cousins l've given up on the idea after talking it over with a few people, probably not wise to dig up the past and l'm sure they've moved on.

That's strange. Was that in Punjab? I'm a Punjabi, and I have never heard any Pakistani Punjabi say anything negative about sikhs. It's the oposite, Pakistani Punjabis look at sikhs as our Punjabi brothers. The people your grandma met were probably some fanatics.

PakNorway

Yes it was in Lahore. There are ignorant people everywhere, so she did not take it personally. The group of young men did say some quite disgusting things and this to a group of 30 elderly Punjabi women and 1 sikh male priest. When they were alone together they had no problems but when the priest turned up to join them, they got some abuse from these guys, they starting throwing stones and saying your not welcome etc etc THey just walked away and said nothing. The other incident, all the women were ordering stuff to give to the poor and they guy assumed they were all muslim and local and was being very friendly, none of the women corrected him of his assumptions because they had that all the time, any way it was only when he started asking questions about why they were ordering so much and were it was going etc that she told him they were all on a religious yatra from blackburn, lancashire. He then started preaching to them, saying they following the wrong path etc etc my gran felt quite insulted at some of his comments and this time answered back and then he got abusive and they walked away and took their business elsewhere.

As for the Karachi-Mumbai debate- l have no idea as not been to Karcachi but have heard they are similar in the sense that people from all over live there, multi-ethnic, multi-religious (in the case of Mumbai), and both economic powerhouses etc. I lived in Delhi 2 years and loved it, alot of posh colonies and farmhouse suburbs, aswell as gated townships and communities, and new urban areas like Gurgaon and Gtr Noida l liked. Lived in Greater Kailash 2, within walking distance had 3 star michellan standard French, Italian, Chinese & Continental restaurants, expensive for India but reasonable for the high standard compared to UK. As for Mumbai, it does seem that certain pockets, enclaves or roads have billionaires or millionaires and then 2 miles or less down the road you have a slum cluster! Navi Mumbai though was spread out, modern, very urban and had some really nice neighbourhoods.

i concur based on facts statistics and ground reality :)

I am sure Karachi and Mumbai retain similarities, cultural and otherwise from the pre-colonial era.

On the other hand, Mumbai's skyline underwent a drastc change over the last 10 - 15 years though, with numerous buildings in the 40+ floor category dotting the skyline now and many more under construction, even much taller ones. Also the 25 Million (& growing) per annum passenger volume at the Mumbai airport does indicate a growing economic clout for that city. Though I have never been to Karachi, judging by what one could access via internet, these could be some of the current differnces between the two cities.

Which city is better compared to the other would be a matter of perspectives and individual preferences. perhaps only someone who has been to both places can best judge that. As an Indian, I feel Mumbai has improved considerably from infrastructure & lifestyle angles last decade and the build up of large scale infrastructure changes got tremendous momentum recently. Its hence no surprise that thousands of westerners currently live in Mumbai on a long term basis, on business or job assignments, which would be quite far fetched even to think of say 15 years back.

Mumbai has some nice tall buildings coming up, but from what I've seen on SSC and other internet sources, these buildings are quite close to, or even in the middle of dirty, unplanned poor areas. Also, the size of an average middle class Indian house in Mumbai is smaller than in Karachi. Karachi has huge residential areas with decent 500 sq ft and 1000 sq ft houses. When it comes to skyscrapers, Mumbai is ahead of Karachi. But when it comes to cleanliness and urban planning, Karachi is ahead.

Delhi and Lahore are identical cities though, and Gurgaon seems to be the best Indian cities, at least from pictures.

Anyway, we are drifting off-topic, this thread is about minorities. Plus city v city discussions are banned on SSC anyways :tongue2:

Karachi is like Mumbai and Delhi is comparable to Lahore??? What are you guys talking ...If you are comparing the cities economically, Mumbai and Delhi are miles ahead of Karachi and Lahore. The cumulative GDP of Delhi and Mumbai is approximately equal to the GDP of the entire Pakistan.

Read this : https://www.ukmediacentre.pwc.com/imagelibrary/detail.asp?MediaDetailsID=1562

Download global cities GDP ranking.

Karachi is like Dhaka..both the cities have same GDP and roughly the same population...Lahore compares well with very small cities such as, Surat.

Karachi is like Mumbai and Delhi is comparable to Lahore??? What are you guys talking ...If you are comparing the cities economically, Mumbai and Delhi are miles ahead of Karachi and Lahore. The cumulative GDP of Delhi and Mumbai is approximately equal to the GDP of the entire Pakistan.

Read this : https://www.ukmediacentre.pwc.com/imagelibrary/detail.asp?MediaDetailsID=1562

Download global cities GDP ranking.

Karachi is like Dhaka..both the cities have same GDP and roughly the same population...Lahore compares well with very small cities such as, Surat.

Oh please, like economics decide which city is more livable. You're telling me living conditions are better in LA as compared to say, Washington DC? not a chance.

Oh please, like economics decide which city is more livable. You're telling me living conditions are better in LA as compared to say, Washington DC? not a chance.

From everyone else except God , We demand data !

I supported my argument with some data. Please list any source, any publication ( except of-course Pakistani) which states that Karachi and Lahore are better / equal to Bombay and Delhi on any parameter.
I hope this data would serve as an eye opener to people who put Karachi and Mumbai and Lahore and Delhi in same league.
Read Again: The cumulative GDP of Delhi and Mumbai is approx equal to that of the entire Pakistan , how you guys compare I dont understand.

From everyone else except God , We demand data !

I supported my argument with some data. Please list any source, any publication ( except of-course Pakistani) which states that Karachi and Lahore are better / equal to Bombay and Delhi on any parameter.
I hope this data would serve as an eye opener to people who put Karachi and Mumbai and Lahore and Delhi in same league.
Read Again: The cumulative GDP of Delhi and Mumbai is approx equal to that of the entire Pakistan , how you guys compare I dont understand.

Don't be over excited, you are talking on the basis of a foreign investment in your country where almost every company of the world had brought an investment over the last decade and your this so called GDP depends on the foreign investement and we are pretty much on our own and moreover have no slums like nowhere else like yours here atleast in these cities of Karachi and Lahore, Good luck with your GDP, can't improve a standard of life of a common citizen

NEW DELHI: India is the biggest victim of financial crisis-induced poverty, according to data obtained by an Indian newspaper from the United Nations Department of Economic and Social Affairs' (UNDESA).

The UNDESA data estimates that the number of India's poor was 33.6 million higher in 2009 than would have been the case if the growth rates of the years from 2004 to 2007 had been maintained. In 2009 alone, an estimated 13.6 million more people in India became poor or remained in poverty than would have been the case at 2008 growth rates.

In other words, while a dip from the 8.8% growth in GDP averaged from 2004-05 to 2006-07 to the 6.7% estimated for 2008-09 may be nothing like the recession faced by the West, its human consequences for India were probably worse. The 2.1% decline in India's GDP growth rate has effectively translated into a 2.8% increase in the incidence of poverty.

According to the UNDESA's World Economic Situation and Prospects 2010, 47 million more people globally became poor or remained in poverty in 2009 than would have been the case at 2008 growth rates, and 84 million more than would have poor at 2004-7 growth rates. Of these, 19 and 40 million respectively are in south Asia.

The report uses the World Bank's definition of poverty, which is people living on less than $1.25 per day in 2005 Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) dollars.

The estimates assume that there has been no change in income distribution. If inequality grew in India in 2009, the number of poor would be even higher than these projections.

The UNDESA report attributes this increase in poverty to a combination of reduced household incomes, rising unemployment and pressure on public services. Job losses in India were primarily in export-oriented industries like textiles while employment levels in Indian firms catering to the domestic market were largely unaffected, the report says.
http://www.thenews.com.pk/updates.asp?id=98309

Don't be over excited, you are talking on the basis of a foreign investment in your country where almost every company of the world had brought an investment over the last decade and your this so called GDP depends on the foreign investement and we are pretty much on our own and moreover have no slums like nowhere else like yours here atleast in these cities of Karachi and Lahore, Good luck with your GDP, can't improve a standard of life of a common citizen


India's growth has been because of foreign investment and Pakistan is generating revenue on its own !...Dear friend, again you have made a statement ..but do you have any data to support it????

Pakistan generating revenues !!!!! The entire economy of Pakistan was in such a dire situation an year back that IMF had to give it emergency loan to keep it afloat..
See this : http://www.imf.org/external/country/PAK/index.htm

Every time Pakistan is mentioned on the IMF webpage it is also mentioned how much aid is being released. Kerry Lugar bill, Fresh tranch of IMF, Fresh approvals from US govt.... Aid , aid and aid ...Why does Pakistan need aid when according to you , it generates its own revenue???

India however poor it might be, is not living of aid. You have pasted a random article on India's poverty , I can paste tens of articles highlighting poverty in Pakistan , China or any developing nation.

All I meant from my post is give a comparison of Karachi, Lahore with Delhi, Bombay to prove that they are well off.
the GDP/person of Mumbai and Delhi is 2 to 2.5 times that of Karachi ( you can use the same PWC article and do a simple math to arrive at the figures).How do you say Karachites have better life? Everywhere in the world the comparisons are made on the basis of GDP/person, if you have any other measure or a study please,please list here.

I have never met any Pakistani who has even a slightest sense of Economics or talks in terms of data..everyone makes statements in the air...our this is better, our that is better.

To each city, his own
LETS NOT DERAIL THIS THREAD

FYI

GDP per capita doesnt exactly show HUMAN DEVELOPMENT but WEALTH, as look at equatorial guinea--one of the highest gdp per capita in the world--but one of the poorest, underdeveloped nation. ALL economist will tell you that this figure can truly be misleading as it doesnt show wealth distribution BUT ACCUMULATIVE WEALTH. AND NO WHERE IN THE WORLD IS GDP PER CAPITA TAKEN AS HUMAN DEVELOPMENT (NOW YOU NEED A REALITY CHECK) or else CUBA, which has a far lower gdp per capita than Argentina, wouldnt have equal or even better develpment indices. BANGLADESH has even beaten Pakistan and India in some development indices

At the end of the day its about how the common man can feed his stomach, has access to sanitation, drinking water, and other essential goods. Compare india's sanitation to Pakistan's (33% to 66%), wealth distribution, people living on less than 1.25 a day, and the cities differ even more or other levels like water access, open defecation, electricity, etc.

AND
The so-called friends of Pakistan still have to give their pledged aid( thats why pakistan is cutting down on human sector development (brecorder.com.pk)) and US still hasn't reimbursed on their coalition reimbursement fund ( you know the fund to give Pakistanis equipments AND ALL the Allies of US get it). Pakistan has lost a tune of 60 billion dollars in the last 10 years due to this war (6 billions per year while US has given about 1.5 billion). Our govt can also easily stop this so called "aid" and just charge transit fees for NATO goods (ALOT HIGHER THAN 1.5 BILLIONS PER YEAR) but it doesn't to show the goodwill towards US and change Pakistani people perspective on US.

SO TECHNICALLY Pakistan is relying on herself. Half of our politicians didnt even want kerry-lugar bill (it makes up a miniscule amount of our entire budget) but then again at least we can lower the 6 billion dollars annual lost due to this war and have some assistance.

And Pakistan wasnt the only nation to go to IMF during the economic disaster...

And Jas, in US I had the same experience. Everywhere I go in manhattan, some guy is preaching to me about JESUS.
I let him speak or simply say "to each his own faith." Its not like they are knifing you to convert.

NOW PLEASE LETS GET BACK TO THE REAL ISSUE
I DIDNT COMPARE KARACHI OR WHATEVER IN MY POSTS
REMEMBER IT IS BANNED HERE IN SSC

purenyork,

I also have the same experience in the UK. Its common for jehovah witness to come knocking at your door and l've been accosted by muslim preachers in the city centre, that doesn't bother me- l'm not religious in the slightest, don't believe in it- just say not interested mate and move on. BUT it was completely different with my gran as he made insulting comments against the sikh & hindu faith and was aggressively promoting islam- no he didn't have a knife but he was 40 yr old + large male and my gran is 78yrs old- so it was TOTALLY inappropriate l'm afraid.

As for the whole India vs Pakistan thing, going on Yasmins thoughts- there are pros n cons with both places but overall stage of development on an verage is actually pretty much the same- just more starkly contrasting in the case of India from top to bottom, as in the flithy rich 2 desperately poor- extremes are greater. I think from what l can gather Karachi probably has more suburban open areas than Mumbai. To offset this, Navi Mumbai is open, well planned and modern. Delhi has loads of really nice green suburan areas though.

This is about Minority citizens in Pakistan.

Please NO MORE POSTS about Karachi vs Mumbai or any other city.

Hello!

Is there also a buddhist minority in Pakistan and are there also buddhist temples?

^^I think there are holy sites of Buddism in Taxila........


Not much Buddists in Pakistan......

^^I think there are holy sites of Buddism in Taxila........


Not much Buddists in Pakistan......

True, not much but they are not totally non-existant either.

There are estimated 2.5 million Bengali-speaking Pakistanis living in the country. And among them there is still a small Buddhist community, mostly in Karachi.
Buddhism is the third largest religion in Bangladesh, esp. in Chittagong and areas bordering Mynamar(Burma).

Most famous Pakistani Buddhist, until she moved to Bangladesh, was film actress Shabnam & her music director husband Robin Gosh.

There are also reports of a some Buddhist living in the Tibetean border area esp. Hunza, in a village on west bank of Hunza river, called Ganesh village.

Wish Pakistan's Buddhist heritage of Gandhara gets better preserved and promoted for tourism.

Thanks guys for the info.

Protecting Pakistan's HindusThe cultural and institutional marginalisation of Hindus in Pakistan is a travesty of human dignity and freedom
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Ali Eteraz guardian.co.uk, Friday 11 April 2008 08.00 BST Article historyHindus in Pakistan have suffered grievously since the founding of the nation in 1947. Recently, in the southern province of Sindh, a Hindu man was accused of blasphemy and beaten to death by his co-workers. This comes at the heels of the abduction and dismemberment of a Hindu engineer.

A little while earlier, the military removed 70 Hindu families from lands where they had been living since the 19th century. To this day the temples that Pakistanis destroyed in 1992 in response to the destruction of the Babri mosque in India have not been restored.

Pakistan, according to many accounts, was founded as a way to protect the rights and existence of the minority Muslim population of Colonial India in the face of the larger Hindu majority. Pakistan's founder, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, is reported to have said in 1947: "In due course of time Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be Muslims - not in a religious sense for that is the personal faith of an individual- but in a political sense as citizens of one state." It is therefore a travesty of Pakistan's own founding principles that its Hindus - and not to exclude Christians and Ahmadis - have suffered so grossly.

There are two levels of prejudice in Pakistan with respect to Hindus - the cultural and the legal.

While it is difficult to say which one is more pernicious, cultural prejudice is certainly more difficult to uproot because it is perpetuated by religious supremacism, nationalism, stories, myth, lies, families, media, schooling and bigotry.

Cultural prejudice has become part and parcel of language itself. Hindus are referred to as "na pak." Na means "un" and pak means "pure." So, Hindus are turned into the impure, or unclean. Given that the word "pak" is part of the word "Pakistan" - which means Land of the Pure - somebody's impurity suggests that they are not really Pakistani.

To make matters even worse, Pakistani mullahs teach a very supremacist version of the Islamic creed, the kalima. Usually, the kalima reads simply: "There is no god but God and Muhammad is His final messenger." The version that children are taught, however, reads as follows: "The first kalima is Tayyab; Tayyab means Pak (Pure); There is no god but God and Muhammad is His final Messenger."

Do you see how the word "Pak" - which denotes both purity and connects to citizenship in Pakistan - is smuggled into the Islamic creed? Since in Urdu this little ditty rhymes very effectively, this is the version of religiosity that most children repeat their entire lives. As a result, while they grow up, they psychologically equate Hindus with impurity, with uncleanliness, as not Pakistani, and therefore less than, both Islamically and as citizens.

The only two parties that can begin to bring some change in this arena are the state and the liberal clerics.

Last year Pakistan's prime minister did greet Hindus during Diwali and a prominent Hindu nationalist leader - who had to quit his party because of his outreach - that was born in Karachi did come back and pay respects to his birth-city.

Cricket diplomacy, which began in 2004, helped a little (but not really, because the focus was on cricket and not on religion). Also, there are a few prominent Hindus here and there - one is a justice of the Supreme Court and one is the leading leg-spinner for the cricket team. Yet, as the Pakistani exile Tarek Fatah points out, Justice Bhagwandas had to take the oath on the Quran. Meanwhile, Kaneria is regularly excluded from the Pakistani cricket team's congregational Islamic prayer.

As bad as the cultural prejudice is, legal prejudice is the one that must be more urgently dealt with, because it is what allows cultural prejudice to acquire institutional power.

Two laws in particular have been very problematic for the Hindu community.

The first one was promulgated under the 1973 constitution which made Islam the state religion of Pakistan and established a separate electorate for Muslims and non-Muslims so that Hindus could only vote for Hindu candidates. Musharraf abolished this in 2002. I think Muslims who support the idea of Islamic states around the world really need to stop and think about this for a second. It took an American-backed dictator in the year 2002 for a Muslim state to abolish unequal voting? As a wise man once said: are you kidding me? This is a deplorable commentary on the state of equality in today's Islam.

The second law is the infamous blasphemy law passed under Islamist dictator Zia ul Haq in the 1980s. Designed specifically to punish the Ahmadi minority, the blasphemy law now provides convenient protection to anyone who ever wants to kill, murder, maim, beat up, mug, abduct, or punish any religious minority. All you really have to do is carry out your brutality and then point at the victim and say that he was blasphemous.

This law needs to be repealed immediately: no reform, no fixing, no tweaking, but total abolishment. Efforts to repeal it under Musharraf failed in the Senate. The secular parliament in session now is probably not going to touch it unless it is told to do so by international groups (who frankly aren't really interested). The UN, EU, US, and International Council of Jurists must make some noise about repealing Pakistan's heinous blasphemy law.

There are little more than three million Hindus in Pakistan (a nation of 160 million). They are still part of Pakistani life and need to be treated with respect and dignity. According to some sources, at the founding of Pakistan, Hindus comprised nearly 15% of the country's population and now number barely 2%. Many have left, many have been killed, and many have converted to other religions to protect themselves. All in all, a travesty for a state that was created with the intended purpose of protecting minorities.

Just met some Pakistani Hindus in the UK, that have been granted asylum in the UK. Unfortunately that article in the Guardian seems to ring true. But my Pak Uk mates say sikhs are viewed in more positive light, hope they are right! As for Buddhists, with the J&K area Ladakh being majority buddhist l would of thought there would be some in the Northern Areas of J&K, even if small in number.

On a more positive note

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8507803.stm

Mending hearts in times of conflict

By Geeta Pandey
BBC News, Bangalore




The brothers were warned by their neighbours before coming to India
Abdul Gaffar sits on his hospital bed, drinking sweet syrupy tea from a plastic cup. "I'm feeling good," he says, smiling.

Abdul was born with a congenital heart disease, explains brother Ali Baksh.

"He had two big holes in his heart and some valves were missing. He was very weak, he couldn't walk, he had no strength in his hands. Thanks to Allah, he's fine now."

Abdul is from the Pakistani city of Karachi and he is among the growing number of Pakistanis with serious heart conditions being referred to the Narayana Hrudayalaya hospital - in the southern Indian city of Bangalore.

"We brought Abdul here because the doctors in Pakistan said he could not be treated there. They said, take him to India," Ali Baksh says.

The cardiologists in Pakistan sent an e-mail to Narayana about Abdul, and the hospital responded with an offer to perform the surgery.

"He was born with pulmonary atresia - which means there was no direct connection between his heart and lung arteries. So we used a synthetic tube to create a connection between the two," explains the hospital chairman and chief surgeon, Dr Devi Shetty.

Strained relations

Earlier, Mr Gaffar could not even get out of bed because the oxygen content in his body was very low.

"But now, he can live a normal life. He can't take part in competitive sport, and can't do heavy exercise but other than that, all is well with him," Dr Shetty says.

Relations between India and Pakistan - who have fought three wars since their partition in 1947 - have long been strained.


Indian troops battled for three days to regain control of Mumbai in 2008
While their long-standing dispute over Kashmir continues, relations took a severe beating following the November 2008 Mumbai (Bombay) attacks.

India blamed the attacks on Pakistan-based militant group Lashkar-e Taiba. After initially denying the charge, Pakistan admitted that the attacks were partly planned on its territory.

An angry India suspended peace talks and relations have since hit rock bottom.

Narayana Hrudyalaya, however, has continued with its healthy form of "track two diplomacy" to mend the hearts of many Pakistanis.

Every year the hospital performs more than 100 operations on Pakistani patients, most of them children, says Dr Shetty.

"For us children of this country and children of Pakistan are the same. What sin have they done? It's not fair on our part to think when a child in Pakistan is in distress and I'm in a position to help the child, [that] I shouldn't help the child. It doesn't work that way.

"I understand there are major issues brewing between the two countries. But I'm sure wisdom will prevail, and the leaders will set things right because this kind of relationship cannot go on forever. I'm sure at some point of time things will become normal," he says.

Warning

Dr Shetty, however, says that Indian authorities have been "very sympathetic" to Pakistani children with heart problems and have issued them visas quickly.

That claim is seconded by Ali Baksh, who says they had no problems obtaining an Indian visa.

But, he says, they did set off from Karachi in December with a sense of trepidation.


Dr Shetty hopes things will become normal between India and Pakistan
"Our neighbours warned us," says Ali Baksh.

"They said: 'You are going to India, God knows what kind of people are there? The times are bad, relations between the two countries are bad, there may be a war while you're there, you are bound to get into some sort of problem.'

"I said: 'If something happens, then that's my luck. I will take my brother to India for his surgery. And thank Allah we haven't had any bad experience, everything turned out really well for us.' "

The brothers crossed the Wagah border by train and arrived in the Indian capital, Delhi.

"From there we took another train to Bangalore. We asked around and found our way to the hospital."

Ali Baksh is all praise for his hosts. "People here are very good, they are peace-loving. They work hard for their living, they don't bother anyone."

And now the brothers are getting ready for the journey home.

"Now my brother is fine, we will be discharged soon and then we will fly to Delhi and then take the train back to Pakistan."

Abdul cannot seem to contain his happiness.

"I'm looking forward to meeting abbu [father] and ammi [mother]. When I was coming, ammi said, go get your surgery done, and then come back."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8485274.stm

Pakistans Sheedi community

Just met some Pakistani Hindus in the UK, that have been granted asylum in the UK. Unfortunately that article in the Guardian seems to ring true. But my Pak Uk mates say sikhs are viewed in more positive light, hope they are right! As for Buddhists, with the J&K area Ladakh being majority buddhist l would of thought there would be some in the Northern Areas of J&K, even if small in number.

I actually know some Pakistani hindus living in UK! They are two brothers owning the Consolidate Company in Pakistan and other Countries! Name, Naveen and Deepak Khillani!

Just met some Pakistani Hindus in the UK, that have been granted asylum in the UK. Unfortunately that article in the Guardian seems to ring true. But my Pak Uk mates say sikhs are viewed in more positive light, hope they are right! As for Buddhists, with the J&K area Ladakh being majority buddhist l would of thought there would be some in the Northern Areas of J&K, even if small in number.

same. it's really sad. I am from India and the city I come from has a growing population of pakistani hindus who want to seek asylum. Most of them have experienced what is being written in the article what makes it more sad is that some of them are doctors and skilled people. :(

One of Pakistan's most famous designer is hindu--deepak perwani--and Hindus in karachi are some of the most respected and well know businessmen and economists. He actually got offended when a hotelier told him hes Indian due to his name in Lahore...

I will say that hindus in small cities and villages, like rural sindh, do feel racist and negative views from others like here in US people in small towns are still hostile to minorities and other religions. People in US in those regions cant stand people who arent A WASP.


And Jas, no offence, but every comment I see here from you has to do with someone you know or whoever else suffered racism in Pakistan. I understand this exists but just saying it. You make it seem like all of Pakistan is like this because trust me this kid I knew in my high skool, Makhan singh, has fam in Lahore and say he will choose pak over India anyday.

Now Im not saying any nation is bad but lets not get biased due to some news. Hell its not just hindus or sikhs but other muslim sects--in the subcontinent if u come from small towns and a minority there is bound to be racism. Most of our peoples are uneducated and have thinkings and education similar to sub sahara africa.

I have by the way family in Quetta, Lahore, and Karachi and they have hindu and christian and sikh friends and acquaintances and they live rather fine. Im not sugarcoating anything but thats like me saying "America is hostile to muslims" or "Australia hates Indians." Go to Pakistan and experience it then talk. My uncle is indian muslim and some of the stores he tells me in India are pretty fuc!ed up.

^^

nobody is saying that all minorities in pakistan are treated that way however a large number do get. what are the views of general public about that blasphemy act? are there any organisation who are against it?

same. it's really sad. I am from India and the city I come from has a growing population of pakistani hindus who want to seek asylum. Most of them have experienced what is being written in the article what makes it more sad is that some of them are doctors and skilled people. :(

same. it's really sad. I am from Pakistan and the city I come from has a growing population of Indian Christians who want to seek asylum. Most of them have experienced what is being written in articles about Orissa what makes it more sad is that some of them are doctors and skilled people. :(

ahh that's a surprise... can you provide any source? by the way I am very surprised by your claims because in orrisa they speak bengali and the culture is very different as well so I don't think pakistan would be the first choice by those christian most of them who are tribal converts and depend on the land around them. sure you didn't just make that up as we two don't get along well? because I'm not lying about what I said, I personally know people who are refugees from pakistan and if you don't beleive that then here are two articles which I could find as normally the refugees don't talk to media because of the fear of being deported:

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/south-asia/tortured-in-pakistan-hindu-migrants-want-to-stay-in-india_100246780.html

http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/dec/09spec.htm

http://statesman.com.pk/pictures/Px16-054.jpg
"Long Live Muslim-Christians Unity
Stop the harrassment of minorities"

ahh that's a surprise... can you provide any source? by the way I am very surprised by your claims because in orrisa they speak bengali and the culture is very different as well so I don't think pakistan would be the first choice by those christian most of them who are tribal converts and depend on the land around them. sure you didn't just make that up as we two don't get along well? because I'm not lying about what I said, I personally know people who are refugees from pakistan and if you don't beleive that then here are two articles which I could find as normally the refugees don't talk to media because of the fear of being deported:

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/south-asia/tortured-in-pakistan-hindu-migrants-want-to-stay-in-india_100246780.html

http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/dec/09spec.htm

It was a sarcastic post to show how silly your post was. Anyone can claim anything on the internet.

India is too big for the poor Christians to leave (no viable alternative nearby), but fix human rights violations in your own country (and in Kashmir) before you come preaching here, mmkay?

http://www.fides.org/aree/news/newsdet.php?idnews=25963&lan=eng

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20100118/indian-christians-forced-out-of-camps-ahead-of-eu-visit/index.html

Also, Muslims in India are overrepresented in jails and underrepresented in education and government. Since independence this so called secular country has had 1 ceremonial figurehead Muslim president. Their per capita income is lower. At least that is not the case here with Hindus and never have any minorities come under attack at the scale we see in India.

^^

It's sad to see your attitude. I commented because this thread is about pakistani minorities and not indian ones. I very well know about the situation of minorities in my country but it was not relevant in a thread about "pakistani minorities" anyway it's not worth discussing with you anyway as you lack knowledge in this issue ( muslim presidents of india bit) anyway you don't want to accept the realities but want to play the country vs country card when you know yourself that this form is about pakistani minorities. And just because according to you india doesn't treats it's minorities well doesn't mean that pakistan shouldn't take care of it's minorities we are different countries with different priorities.


p.s. they always say ( specially booga) sarcasm doesn't work on the i.n.t.e.r.n.e.t.

Oh, so you expect me to think that you are coming in here with good faith when in the international skybar you frequently troll against Pakistan?

Jas posts a crappy article which is some guys opinion and there are many lies in it. I will highlight some.

Cultural prejudice has become part and parcel of language itself. Hindus are referred to as "na pak." Na means "un" and pak means "pure." So, Hindus are turned into the impure, or unclean. Given that the word "pak" is part of the word "Pakistan" - which means Land of the Pure - somebody's impurity suggests that they are not really Pakistani.

This is horse****

True, some extremists don't like Hindus, but then again some extremists don't like Shia Muslims either, they are that extreme. However, there is no prejudice against Hindu's to the level of calling them "napak", that is just a blatant lie.

To make matters even worse, Pakistani mullahs teach a very supremacist version of the Islamic creed, the kalima. Usually, the kalima reads simply: "There is no god but God and Muhammad is His final messenger." The version that children are taught, however, reads as follows: "The first kalima is Tayyab; Tayyab means Pak (Pure); There is no god but God and Muhammad is His final Messenger."

Again, go check the figures of what % of Pakistani kids attend madrassas. There are mullah's in Pakistan attempting to make people suicide bombers. Yet you've never seen Hindus or any other minority attacked by terrorists. Kind of makes you wonder, if they hate Hindus so much, why aren't they attacking them?

Meanwhile, Kaneria is regularly excluded from the Pakistani cricket team's congregational Islamic prayer.

Right, Kaneria begs them to join the Islamic prayer, because you know, he is so desperate to pray to a God he doesn't believe in. There is no way he chooses to stay away :|

The first one was promulgated under the 1973 constitution which made Islam the state religion of Pakistan and established a separate electorate for Muslims and non-Muslims so that Hindus could only vote for Hindu candidates. Musharraf abolished this in 2002. I think Muslims who support the idea of Islamic states around the world really need to stop and think about this for a second. It took an American-backed dictator in the year 2002 for a Muslim state to abolish unequal voting? As a wise man once said: are you kidding me? This is a deplorable commentary on the state of equality in today's Islam.

These laws were meant to ensure that there would always be minorities represented in government. The law that a Hindu can only vote for a Hindu ensured that Muslim candidates could not threaten/intimidate/force Hindus to vote for them. Maybe the author needs to stop and think about what he is writing.

The second law is the infamous blasphemy law passed under Islamist dictator Zia ul Haq in the 1980s. Designed specifically to punish the Ahmadi minority, the blasphemy law now provides convenient protection to anyone who ever wants to kill, murder, maim, beat up, mug, abduct, or punish any religious minority. All you really have to do is carry out your brutality and then point at the victim and say that he was blasphemous.

This law needs to be repealed immediately: no reform, no fixing, no tweaking, but total abolishment. Efforts to repeal it under Musharraf failed in the Senate. The secular parliament in session now is probably not going to touch it unless it is told to do so by international groups (who frankly aren't really interested). The UN, EU, US, and International Council of Jurists must make some noise about repealing Pakistan's heinous blasphemy law.

Finally something that is true. By the way, the blasphemy law is not strictly enforced. Usually in villages if a minority is accused of blasphemy, a mob lynches him which is the biggest problem. If the police are able to get to the accused blasphemer, he is safer. I hate the backward village culture, it must be destroyed and modernity and secularism forced on everyone.

Brightside

India has had 4 Indian Muslim Presidents not 1. I know many Gujarati Muslims here in the UK who are very patriotic, more so than hindus and have nothing but positive experiences of India. India is very complex and diverse, with extremes left right and centre. I lived their for 2 years and remember in Delhi, seeing a march of people demanding greater gay rights and gay marriage, in old Delhi seeing a muslim demonstration and hearing a mullah type figure preach hate against non-muslims and his intentions of a muslim India & mission to convert etc and this in a crowd with many non-muslims- luckily no response from them- in Gujarat- hearing a group of Hindus spout their hate of muslims and intentions to rid the nation of all non-hindus/sikhs/jains/buddhists, l could go on and on. My mate Yasmin, who's Pakistani Sindhi Muslim, said she would rather be Muslim in India than Hindu in Pakistan, anyday. Its all a personal opinion. She spent most of her time in educated middle class urban areas, her experience may have been different in other areas. There is a big Muslim middle class population but they are overall the poorest religious community BUT most of them reside in the poorest and most backward states of India, west bengal, bihar & uttar pradesh. So obviously the figures would be less- on income & education levels- but not by much, a couple of percentage. The real problem in India BY FAR is the marginalisation of low caste and tribal people, & in general poor uneducated are exploited regardless of religion, just as money and connections regardless of religion can get you anything there.
I posted that article because l am a Guardian reader and l encountered some Pakistani Hindus through work who had some horrific tales. My intention is not to create a whole drama India vs Pakistan thing. I am going to Pakistan next year with an open mind. I am not prejudiced in the slightest. My fathers family is west punjabi as is my grandmothers on my mums side- they suffered greatly and could easily be anti-muslim but they areant and have many pakistani friends here in the UK.
Most people whether Hindu or Muslim or Sikh are decent and not extremists. One religion is not more extreme than the other, its cuts both ways. India has had its problems and as a secular nation should fair far better than it does but a nation as diverse (in terms of religion, wealth, ideas, ethnicities, lack of resources, poor government & management etc)as India, can't think of one even remotely comparable, its probably doing better than it really should. As for Pakistan, its a islamic republic, so the expectations are going to be different, l think the majority don't feel threatened by them, they are somewhat marginalised from the mainstream and do we don't see these large scale riots on the whole, also in terms of India the far right seem to play alot on the history os islamic invasion and fear etc wheras there isn't an equivalent for Muslim extremists, although muslims can focus on kashmir of course and the riots of 1992 &2002 to stoke up anger, injustice etc.

Anyone can quote incidents of hindus they know in Pak suffering, or Muslims suffering in India. Of course it happens both ways. Yasmin has met many Pak Hindus in Rajasthan. I have met many disgruntled Kashmiri Muslim, who hate both India and Pakistan in equal measure. I've met Kasmiri Hindus who long for home, in awful conditions in Jammu. Bengali Hindus flooding in to West Bengal with horrific tales. Bengali muslims migrants harassed when most are in India for purely economic reasons. Anyways, l've already ranted too much!

^^

Your first post which you regard is horse whatever might be true. maybe you haven't experienced it but around 2 years ago a prominent hindi paper use to publish a whole page in a weekly news paper which was all related to friendship between pakistan and india. A prominent female journalists/writer use to write lovely articles on different topics and I remember in one of them she talked about this issue. may not be prevalent but some people do hold this type of view.

Your point about terrorists not attacking hindus: Taliban gave a warning to hindus and sikhs ( possibaly other minorities as well) in peshawar to give some kind of a protection tax or leave the land. However, terrorism is not the main concern it's the forcible conversion or kidnappings by extremists which is most talked about.

Same here, didn't get the kaneria part.

I believe the writer was writing about making islam the state religion which may make minorities feel uneasy and the second point he made was about that voting thing which got abolished surely for the right reasons.


your last point about blasphamy law; it may not be strictly enforced but it is misused by people. it's not only hindus, other minorities have also suffered because of this act and if you go by the accounts of people who have suffered it doesn't only happen in villages it's prominent in cities as well.

Jas29

When you come to Pakistan, visit as many temples and churches as you can and come back to this thread and post what the Hindus and Christians of Pakistan living in Pakistan said, not some people living abroad who maybe suffered some unpleasant incidents back in the times when issues like Kashmir and Babri masjid were the only thing Muslim Pakistanis associated with India, and thus Hindus. There are two things that really anger me about Pakistan's laws regarding minorities, one is that any non-Muslim cannot become Prime Minister or President, and the other is the blasphemy law. The blasphemy law was amended by Musharraf.

Unfortunately our country was poisoned by the Saudi influence during Zia ul Haq's time, and repairing the damage he has done will take a while. Until these extremist mullah's are put in their place, these two laws cannot be repealed. They threw a hissy fit when Musharraf removed the words "Islamic Republic of" from our passport. So yes, it will take us a while to be a country where minorities enjoy equal rights and aren't second class citizens, but overall in terms of jobs or security of life, or being treated with respect, our minorities don't have it any worse than minorities in India. And you can verify my claims next year when you come here :)

Brightside

I look forward to it. I don't think they are treated any worse than in India, l would say about the same overall.

Actually l would Bangladesh is far worse in minorities rights but thats another story- l have human rights lawyer friends over there now- no media attention on it.

Anyway, a few more atricles l found which you may find of interest?

The sexual politics of partitionAfter the Raj: The division of Pakistan from India was a battle not only over land, but also over women's 'honour' - a conflict still played out today.
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Sunny Hundal guardian.co.uk, Friday 17 August 2007 07.00 BST Article historyIn 2004, just before local elections, the British National Party aired a party political broadcast featuring a Sikh man talking of the hardships his family faced during partition. He recounted how his family were killed by Muslims and said they were not to be trusted. Mr Singh made another appearance later on BNPtv, where he talked of his experience at length.

The BNP's strategy wasn't merely a shot in the dark. It was based on earlier dealings with extremist Sikhs who were openly willing to form alliances with the BNP against Muslims. "Divide and rule", the mantra that British forces used so effectively in India, had been transplanted to modern Britain.

In many ways, this is not surprising. While the 60th anniversary of Indian and Pakistani independence has brought us a dearth of programming where people re-visit the respective countries or talk of their experiences, less light is shed on how the carnage of partition still impacts Britain's South Asian Hindu, Sikh and Muslim communities. It is impossible to provide a good overview in a short-ish blog, so I will focus here on one key element: the role of women.

In patriarchal and feudal societies, women are almost always seen as the bearers of culture and "honour". Traditional, conservative South Asian culture fetishises women to such an extent that, while the official line says they are held in high esteem and regard, in actual fact, they are treated simply as vessels of that honour, and their lives are forced to be structured around preserving that. They are not allowed to do anything that compromises those ideals, while men have much freer reign without the same burden.

Partition exposed this deeply ingrained misogny in the most brutal fashion. When Muslim, Hindu and Sikh men wanted to take revenge for their peers being killed by the other, they deliberately went out searching for women of other religions to rape and kidnap. When villages were confronted with angry baying mobs, the women were told to commit suicide by jumping in the well for their own benefit rather than fall in the clutches of the other (this is told and handled amazingly in the film Khamosh Pani - Silent Waters).

It intensified bigotry on all sides, and this was frequently expressed in a battle by besmirching women's honour.

Second- and third-generation Britons have largely moved on from those times. Tensions do flare up sometimes when discussing history (especially on discussion forums or even Wikipedia). But the growth of a pan-South Asian subculture in Britain over the 90s (largely driven by music and a secular media) ensured that young Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis were constantly rubbing up against each other, striking up friendships and forging relationships in ways their parents would not have. At university, undercover inter-religious relationships are rife.

But brown folk are unfortunately easily manipulated by bigots. The rallying cry that "your women are under attack" is used even today as a surefire way to get hotheads riled up. During the anti-Muslim pogroms of 2002 in the Indian state of Gujarat, men were recorded by human rights group as deliberately raping or sexually mutilating women with the aim to destroy their honour. The situation isn't any better in Bangladesh, Pakistan or neighbouring Afghanistan.

Closer to home, the Hindu Forum of Britain recently alleged in several newspaper articles that Hindu and Sikh women were being forcibly converted to Islam without producing a single case the police could investigate. The Midlands-based Sikh Awareness Society has been accused of making similar claims.

Similarly, there are cited cases of Muslim girls being forced to cover up with a hijab or niqab by their parents, usually with the view that men would otherwise prey on them. I agree with Yasmin Alibhai-Brown when she said, "The niqab expunges the female Muslim presence from the landscape and hands the world over to men. It rejects human commonalities and even the membership of society itself."

Of course, brown folk are not alone in this misogny. When sexual predators of Asian origin molest white girls, then the same narrative surfaces in the media and with racists - without any comparison with white men engaged in similar crimes.

These are the same old battles between prejudiced people, played out by manipulating and coercing women.

Sixty years on, there are instances where I feel people have learnt their lesson and moved on. But those willing to stoke up prejudices for their own political purposes are never far from the surface.

The Mumbai terror attacks prove the partitioning of India and Pakistan was a tragic mistakeThe enmity meant to lurk inside every Pakistani towards India has always seemed ridiculous to me; it is like hating one's own past
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Sarfraz Manzoor The Guardian, Monday 15 December 2008 Article historyI had not been to Bombay before this year, and, aside from two weeks in Goa a decade ago, had never set foot on Indian soil. That in itself is not surprising; for Pakistanis, India exerts a compelling but complex fascination. It is the enemy in cricket, in two wars and in the long rumbling dispute over the contested territory of Kashmir - and yet it is also the ancestral homeland with a shared language and history. My fascination with India was not because it offered a tantalising taste of the exotic other - the appeal to those westerners who come to find themselves - but because it was so close to Pakistan, the land of my parents, the country where I was born.

Earlier this year I was invited by the Kitab book festival to visit Bombay (the original name for Mumbai and the one most locals use). I arrived on a searing February afternoon and took a taxi to my hotel, the Taj, in Colaba on the southern tip of the city. From my window I could see the Gateway to India, the giant stone arch through which the last British troops to leave India passed 60 years ago. Born in Lahore, I was slightly nervous about being in India; I had a faint suspicion that my Pakistani heritage would be instantly identifiable to every passerby. The truth was, of course, that I blended in as well as any other person who did not truly belong; I spoke Urdu to the street vendors and they replied in Hindi, which is practically the same; I ordered saag aloo, which my mother makes for me at home; and everywhere I inhaled the city's wild, chaotic energy. And as I sat in the back of a speeding rickshaw and soaked up the sight of Hindus and Muslims and Sikhs living in the city, I kept wishing I could take my mother to Bombay.

Like my late father, my mother was born Indian in what 14 years later became Pakistan under the 1947 partition. I wondered how she would feel about being in India and whether it would feel like home. She left Pakistan in 1974, bringing me and my siblings to join my father, who had come to Britain 11 years earlier. For second-generation British Pakistanis, home is a complicated question. I see my generation as the casualties of a double fracture: ripped out of India and then torn from Pakistan. The enmity that is meant to lurk inside every Pakistani towards India has therefore always seemed ridiculous to me; it is like being asked to hate one's own past. It seems natural that my best friend of the past 20 years is a British Indian Sikh: what is different is so much less important than what is shared.

Last month I returned to India for a six-week trip. I was back in Bombay, working on a Radio 4 documentary. My producer and I had a free Saturday morning, and I showed him the Taj. It was Saturday 22 November. As we walked through the metal detectors I remember thinking they were not in position on my previous visit. We sat briefly by the pool before returning to the heat and noise, wandering past the Leopold cafe, where I had eaten stuffed parathas nine months earlier. The next morning I flew to Bangalore and at the airport I picked up a newspaper. The front-page headline was a quote from the Pakistani president, Asif Ali Zardari, talking of the links between India and Pakistan. Quoting his late wife, Benazir Bhutto, the president said, "There is a little bit of India in every Pakistani." The words appeared to usher in a new era of Indo-Pakistani relations, in which the tensions, suspicions and hostility of the past were finally put to rest.

You know what happened next. Within hours, it was reported that Pakistan, or Pakistanis, were implicated in the Bombay attacks; Zardari's remarks already felt overtaken by appalling events. Muslims in Bombay, fearful that the attacks would incite hatred against them, were quick to show their solidarity with the rest of the country. The city's largest Muslim graveyard refused to bury the nine slain gunmen who carried out the attacks and last week's Eid celebrations were appropriately muted, with some of Bollywood's leading Muslim stars wearing black armbands to express their sadness. Meanwhile, polling across India revealed an unambigious suspicion that Pakistan was behind the attacks, with more than two thirds of Indians wanting to sever all ties with its troublesome neighbour.

The attacks were inevitably dubbed "India's 9/11" and there has been talk of a "war on terror" against Lashkar-e-Taiba, the Lahore-based outfit thought to have carried out the killings. But this second war on terror seems as ill-conceived as the first. The danger is that it distracts from the truth of how much the two countries share. I am convinced that the attacks, like those in Delhi and Islamabad, are further evidence that the partitioning of India and Pakistan has proved a tragic mistake. It was prompted for laudable reasons - to protect Muslims from Hindu dominance - but it caused the death of millions in the greatest migration in human history, and 60 years on what has it achieved? Two nations - three including Bangladesh, which gained independence in 1971 - whose leaders have shed blood and spent billions fighting each other while their people have starved and suffered. But in loving India I do not hate Pakistan. I find myself agreeing with the Delhi street vendor who, when I told him I was originally from Pakistan, said with a wave of a hand, "India, Pakistan, it is all one." Pakistan is like a severed leg, hacked from the body and expected to run on its own.

The Mexican author Carlos Fuentes described the border between the US and Mexico as "an enormous bloody wound, a sick body, mute in the face of its ills, on the point of shouting, torn by its loyalties, and beaten, finally, by political callousness, demagoguery and corruption". The words strike me as sadly all-too appropriate to the India/Pakistan border, another bloody wound that can only begin healing when we acknowledge the personal and political tragedy of partition.

• Charlie Brooker is away

• This week Sarfraz roamed the forts and palaces of Rajasthan by day and watched the entire series of Our Friends in the North on DVD in the evenings. He read The Black Album by Hanif Kureishi: "I missed it when it came out, but the themes of race, religion and rock'n'roll remain compellingly prescient."

OKAY JAS,LISTEN UP BUDDY...

This is about minority in Pakistan, as in post revelent articles.Post something positive too--not just pakis and indians having fun in INDIA (how does that fit in)--but about minorities IN PAKISTAN (real sources AND DONT TRY TO DIG IT UP TO FIND SOME CRAP)If you cant then dont post anything. Please. Also what happened has happened. Long live my Pakistan safe salamahat, long live your India. End of discussion.

I dont want to be a dickhead--sorry for that--but positing irrevelent articles just make this thread another BS.

THIS THREAD CELEBRATES DIVERSITY, not god knows what.

Honestly,I have soooooooooo many stories just from my high school of sikhs disliking india--hell some supported "khalistan"--but I dont jump on the bandwagon or brand India. Our countries can only educate the people to end animosity between peoples like people in US now finally see Blacks as equals after education and whatever. Only then would this hatred vanquish and inshallah it will


And there is no equal to muslim terrorism in India? last time i looked Shiv Sena was a cup of tea and the role BJP played in gujurat massacre is shyt (the inquiry India conducted Lies--your own parliament admitted it and the BJP started whining and then HEADLINES TODAY INDIA did an exposee)...So please.


And you post articles from "digg it". Honestly?
real articles...i havent seen one real editor or whoever write "brown people." *ohgod*

Mann! You guys gotta stop writing very long responses! Its hard to catch up to the topic!

Sikh pilgrims ‘overwhelmed’ by reception



Friday, February 19, 2010
By Our Correspondent

LAHORE

MORE than 350 Sikh pilgrims, led by Sardar Jageer Singh, on Thursday arrived at the Wahga Railway Station to celebrate the freedom of Nankana Sahib - the birthplace of Guru Nanak - from Hindus.

Pilgrims were greeted at Wagha Railway Station by Pakistan Sikh Gurdawara Perbandahk Committee Chief Sardar Sham Singh, former Chief Sardar Bishan Singh and officials of the Evacuee Trust Property Board (ETPB).

Talking to newsmen, Sardar Jagheer Singh said that they were overwhelmed by the reception they got on their arrival in Pakistan. He said he was thankful to ETPB Chairman Syed Asif Hashami for supporting them and taking care of their religious places in Pakistan. He said that the whole Sikh community was grateful to the ETPB for providing facilities to Sikhs. To a question, Sardar Jahgeer Singh said all the news item appearing in newspapers regarding the sale of property and land of Sikh shrines were baseless and they felt that Asif Hashami was their protector in Pakistan. The deputy leader of the delegation, Sardar Jaspal Singh, thanked the ETPB for reception Sikhs received in Pakistan.

We should learn from jhodpoor and his India about minorities and their rights cough cough minus Gujrat riots, khalistan movement, ayodhia carnage, Bombay 1994 riots, oh yea and rape of Kashmir.... Wat more.... Aaah no I actually have a life other then arguing with jhodpooor. My 2 cents get a lfe Indian

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/amankiasharticleshow/5571664.cms

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/5571677.cms

We should learn from jhodpoor and his India about minorities and their rights cough cough minus Gujrat riots, khalistan movement, ayodhia carnage, Bombay 1994 riots, oh yea and rape of Kashmir.... Wat more.... Aaah no I actually have a life other then arguing with jhodpooor. My 2 cents get a lfe Indian

First of all my ID is Jodhpur so spell it correctly. Secondly, stop being a hypocrite read the whole discussion and notice how many times your fellow countrymen have written:this thread is about "pakistani minorities" so why do you want to bring up indian minorities? It seems like your trying to justify the problems faced by your minorities by the problems faced by Indian minorities? that's really childish. I could discuss pages and pages about Indian minorities but this thread is about pakistani minorities. And what did I say wrong in my posts? just because it didn't have the traditional image of a happy minority thing but talked about refugees and religious persecution. These problems are faced by minorities in Pakistan and you cannot deny that. I thought this thread was about discussing pakistani minorities but people like you just want to hear good news about the minorities and ignore the problems faced by them. Facing the problems wouldn't make pakistan look bad it would only show that pakistan cares about the situation of its minorities.


p.s. where are the mods of this section? You can see frequent comments saying "this thread is about pakistani minorities" then why are you allowing comments about indian ones? you very well know that someone would see it and a whole off topic discussion will start.

First of all my ID is Jodhpur so spell it correctly. Secondly, stop being a hypocrite read the whole discussion and notice how many times your fellow countrymen have written:this thread is about "pakistani minorities" so why do you want to bring up indian minorities? It seems like your trying to justify the problems faced by your minorities by the problems faced by Indian minorities? that's really childish. I could discuss pages and pages about Indian minorities but this thread is about pakistani minorities. And what did I say wrong in my posts? just because it didn't have the traditional image of a happy minority thing but talked about refugees and religious persecution. These problems are faced by minorities in Pakistan and you cannot deny that. I thought this thread was about discussing pakistani minorities but people like you just want to hear good news about the minorities and ignore the problems faced by them. Facing the problems wouldn't make pakistan look bad it would only show that pakistan cares about the situation of its minorities.


p.s. where are the mods of this section? You can see frequent comments saying "this thread is about pakistani minorities" then why are you allowing comments about indian ones? you very well know that someone would see it and a whole off topic discussion will start.

annnnnnnd the wining goes onnnn.....are bhannniaz known for anything else other than wining.....oooh yea dhotiz....kumon johdpoor take it easy man ;)....