Hi everybody,

I got a job offer in each of these cities and I need some help deciding between the two. Can any residents of either give me some advice?

So far, Rochester has this going for it: lots of available apts, easier access to the usual city perks such as shopping, entertainment, etc. as well as an airport that has a nonstop flight back home (NYC). Going against it are more traffic/sprawl and slightly higher living costs than Watertown (I think??) And if would be less bike-friendly than Watertown though certainly better than NYC.

Living in Watertown has the benefit of me being able to go 5 minutes in one direction to be in the free and open while going 5 min in the other direction and I'll be at the office and within range of shopping,etc though on a much smaller scale of course. Apts are also harder find and what's out there seems to be much older and more spread out in the communities around the city.

Can anybody else offer other tips, advice, etc.
It would be much appreciated. Thanks!! :)

I prefer Rochester.

OK first let me put it into perspective here, I'm a current Rochester resident, and I have family that live in Watertown, that being said here is my highlight.

I agree with you that there are lots of available apartments, and many of them would be the NY style you are used too, if you live in a loft there are plenty of those new and under construction, I can point you in a good direction if you are looking for that type of living. If you like sports, "minor league" theatre, museums, etc. there is plenty of that too do here. Along with pretty decent nightlife along the Monroe/Alexander area, and High Falls. I don't know how familiar you are with the ROC so I'll tell you that the average commute time is 21 minutes....so I wouldn't characterize that as a lot of traffic.

Sprawl is much slower here in Rochester, due to minimal population growth, so it is not sprawl that you would see in places throughout the South/Southwest. Many things are within a 15 minute drive. 15 Minutes from Downtown you can be out in the country, and do things like pick apples, or pumpkins if you so choose.

I would whole-heartily disagree with the statement that it is more bike-friendly. In Rochester you have designated bike trails to ride on. The Erie Canal path is paved for bikers and walkers alike. Throughout the Olmsted parks (Genesee Valley, and Maplewood) you have miles of bike paths, so if you are looking for that we certainly have Watertown beat.


Watertown is like a military town, there are some things going on at certain times, but nothing really memorable jumps out at me. Certainly there is no real sprawl there either (if you don't count Fort Drum because that is all sprawl). No bikepaths, no New York style living. It's a beautiful area, but there just isn't much to do there. You could go to Wal Mart and try a hammer or something, but I just think you are better off in Rochester.

If it were me and I had to do it again, I would still choose Rochester. It would be much easier for you to transfer from NY to ROC, than NY to Watertown.

Plus here are some picture highlights from around town.

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/9932/picture030ul2.jpg

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/8639/picture027tr6.jpg

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4461/picture001fg4.jpg

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/2899/picture030kx2.jpg

Watertown is near the Thousand Islands, so that's a big plus in the Summer. I would think that Watertown is close to dead in the Winter.

Rochester is a pretty big city, so typically, there will be a lot of things to do.

They're both nice, but I think you'll find alot more to do in Rochester. I'm minimally familiar with Watertown having gone to school in Potsdam, but it's not exactly the most "happening" place. You're only an hour or so from Syracuse, however, which should satisfy the shopping aspect nicely.

In the end, I suppose it comes down to what your preferences are - big city or small city.

Pretty much what everyone else has already said. I have one distant cousin that I know of that lives in Watertown and she is a hippie that lives in a little hut; everyone else is in Rochester. lol. Eventhough yes, Watertown is cheaper than Rochester, coming from NYC; Rochester would still be a major bargan. They are building many upscale lofts downtown and there is "talk" of a decent sized "urban village" with upscale shops, townhomes/condos (to own) and apartments in the Charlotte area right on lake Ontario (There is a lot of controversy about this however, because that area is a very popular daytime outing durring the summer).

If you like city living, Rochester. Watertown is good if you like nature. It's also one hour away from Ottawa, which isn't a good enough reason for you to move there.

Thanks for the information, everybody. very useful. :)

Some other Roc questions: anybody have a map that shows the city limits and where the suburbs begin. I'm checking Google Earth but can't really make heads or tails where Rochester ends and where Brighton begins, for example. Speaking of which, if I go, I probably won't end up in the cbd, but somewhere outside. I heard Brighton, Henrietta, Fairport and East Rochester are nice places and you're close to all the downtown entertainment and also shopping in the typical big suburban malls.

As for apt rent, it seems $500 will get me a basic 600sqft, 1br while $650 is a stepup and $800+ would be good living (again, for the suburbs and not Roc city itself). Are these good numbers for budgeting? How much more for utilities? I imagining heating bills in winter could get high.

Next, I'll have to get a car. Will a basic 2WD sedan be able to handle the winters? or AWD is suggested? snow tires too? (remember, you're speaking to a NYer who rarely drives, much less in the snow. hehe)

Oh yeah, blangjr21, thanks for the biking info--sounds nice! Actually, I'm happy on any road I don't have to dodge cars on but bike trails are even better. :okay:

A 2 weel drive will be fine, front wheel drive would ensure that. As for the city limits; you should be able to see them on google earth, it's under "us governemt" in the layers window. The city limits to the southwest is the Erie Canal; if it's east of the Genesee River, the town on the other side of the canal is Brighton; east of the river, and it's Gates. The city limits are pretty basic and easy to understand with the exception of Durand-Eastman Park/Beach. That's the big chunk of "city" that is totally cut off from the rest, on Lake Ontario, surrounded on three sides by the town of Irondequiot. Nobody actually lives there, it just just a park with a huge golfcourse, and a beach that they just opened to swimmingt last week for the first time in over 40 years. Here is a map of Monroe County that shows the boundaries of the city and all of the towns and villages.

(ignore the part where greece is circled in red with an arrow pointing to it, that's somethign I did a while ago to show something on another thread)

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a221/nixter369/greece.jpg

Engineer, if you are looking for the best places (both safety wise, and comfort/proximity wise) the best towns for that are Brighton, Chili, Greece, Perinton, Penfield, and Webster. I don't think that $500 is too far away from ballpark, but many apartment complexes around here include utilities so the average rent I would say is around $650 for a 1 bedroom, 1 bathroom apartment, that is good quality. Now if you are looking for specific apartments I'd be willing to give you some suggestions, but I hope that you really enjoy life in Rochester (if you are choosing to come here) because it is certainly a great community.

Though we need to work on the women here, many of them got an attitude! :laugh:

Oh and a 2WD is pretty easy to deal with, the DPW's do a great job clearing off the streets when the area is blanketed with snow. We didn't really have too many days like that last year. In Watertown you would get pretty blasted with Snow, so Rochester is a signifigantly easier community to commute in when the snow comes around.

As far as malls go they are all pretty good places (if you are in to that kind of thing) Eastview being the most "chic" with its numerous upper echelon shops, Greece-Ridge Mall in Greece is the largest area mall, Medley Centre has that new car smell, although it was built in the 80's they have really turned the place around, and Marketplace holds its own as the Southern portions most popular shopping destination. There are "lifestyle-centers" in Webster and Pittsford as well if you are into that sort of thing.

Yeah, you don't need 4WD for the winters. I tend to contend that nobody does, actually, just those who don't know how to drive in the stuff (which actually makes them more dangerous). If Rochester is even half as good as Buffalo when it comes to clearing snow, you'll be set. Watertown is a little more iffy as they get more snow (probably the most in the entire northeast) and I know up in those parts they like to use sand instead of salt - which I think is useless. Still though, it's not too bad up there.

I'm not familiar with the Rochester rental market, but it would seem a range between $400-600 for a decent apartment is reasonable. I pay $665 outside Buffalo for a 2BR, and the place is probably way better than average. I can't see it going for more than $700 in Rochester. Watertown would be cheaper, but I have no idea how much as I have zero experience there.

You mention biking - that is one area where Watertown probably knocks Rochester dead. Not in terms of bike facilities, but country roads with virtually no traffic. Might make a difference whether you bike to get somewhere, or just recreationally. I used to love biking up there when I was at school.

As a lifelong resident of the Rochester area I would have to advise you to take the Watertown job. Over the past 15-20 years this area has gone through an unprecedented socio-economic decline that most of the young posters here are unable to grasp. We now have the highest crime rate in all of NY State and have been well documented as the only metro in the country to continually lose jobs since 911. In fact last month alone another 6,100 jobs were lost as compared to last year. in all our local economy has nearly 30,000 fewer jobs now than at 911.

In Watertown you will be closer to Syacuse which has been steadily adding jobs at a pace that exceeds the national increase. You will also be closer to better shopping at the major Caurosal Mall as well as have access to big time college sports, none of which are available here.

Be very wary of moving here at a time when we are on a major downward spiral. As many of the children of my friends can attest - Rochester is no place to build a career. That is why they along with some 35% of their cohorts have moved out of the Rochester area. BTW the 35% figure comes from the US Census Bureau.

As a lifelong resident of the Rochester area I would have to advise you to take the Watertown job. Over the past 15-20 years this area has gone through an unprecedented socio-economic decline that most of the young posters here are unable to grasp. We now have the highest crime rate in all of NY State and have been well documented as the only metro in the country to continually lose jobs since 911. In fact last month alone another 6,100 jobs were lost as compared to last year. in all our local economy has nearly 30,000 fewer jobs now than at 911.

In Watertown you will be closer to Syacuse which has been steadily adding jobs at a pace that exceeds the national increase. You will also be closer to better shopping at the major Caurosal Mall as well as have access to big time college sports, none of which are available here.

Be very wary of moving here at a time when we are on a major downward spiral. As many of the children of my friends can attest - Rochester is no place to build a career. That is why they along with some 35% of their cohorts have moved out of the Rochester area. BTW the 35% figure comes from the US Census Bureau.

Even with the loss of jobs, I don't see how Rochester is just flat out worse than Watertown. A large town like Watertown isn't going to be seeing new jobs either. In fact, your typical town would more likely lose any great jobs because it's more out in the middle of nowhere, farther away from bigger businesses.

Of course, right now it doesn't matter how many jobs Rochester is losing, because he was already offered a job in each city, so he won't have to look for a job. As of now, it seems like hi job in either city is stable.

And I don't understand why you say Watertown is close to Syracuse. A quick look at a map shows me that both cities seem to be around the same distance from Syracuse, and have easy access to Syracuse via an Interstate. So why is this a plus for Watertwon but not for Rochester?

Besides, why would he look for a job in Syracuse? As mentioned earlier, he was offered a job in each city, so he doesn't have to look for a job. That eliminates the opportunity to look for a job in Syracuse out of the equation entirely.

Your argument just seems to be pretty weak, since you need to add Syracuse into Watertown to make Watertown look better than Rochester. Syracuse might be better than Rochester, but what does that ahve to do with Watertown? And if he has job offers in both cities, he doesn't really have to worry about who is losing their job in either market. I just think you approached his question in an entirely incorrect manner.

In my opinion he would be far better off in Watertown than in Rochester for the reasons I have stated. You seem to totally gloss over the fact that we have the highest crime rate in the entire state and one of the highest in the northeast. The decline here over the past several years is palpable. Most people do not stay with one employer for their entire careers. There are no metro areas in the country declining in jobs faster or more persistantly than Rochester. Thus it is a very poor place to choose to have a career in. Watertown is about a half hour closer to the GROWING Syracuse area than is Rochester so if he started a career there he could live a half hour from either Watertown or Syracuse and would have the potential for a future without uprooting. That opportunity is far more limited in Rochester and becoming increasingly more so each month as our job base continues to dwindle. Syracuse jobs are up 1.3% this year while Rochester area jobs are down 1.4%. Thus central NY would appear to posess far more promise than the Rochester area.

There is a reason why Rochester is a national leader in the exporting of our young, that reason is economic opportunity which we clearly lack.

In my opinion he would be far better off in Watertown than in Rochester for the reasons I have stated. You seem to totally gloss over the fact that we have the highest crime rate in the entire state and one of the highest in the northeast. The decline here over the past several years is palpable. Most people do not stay with one employer for their entire careers. There are no metro areas in the country declining in jobs faster or more persistantly than Rochester. Thus it is a very poor place to choose to have a career in. Watertown is about a half hour closer to the GROWING Syracuse area than is Rochester so if he started a career there he could live a half hour from either Watertown or Syracuse and would have the potential for a future without uprooting. That opportunity is far more limited in Rochester and becoming increasingly more so each month as our job base continues to dwindle. Syracuse jobs are up 1.3% this year while Rochester area jobs are down 1.4%. Thus central NY would appear to posess far more promise than the Rochester area.

There is a reason why Rochester is a national leader in the exporting of our young, that reason is economic opportunity which we clearly lack.

Again, what does Syracuse have to do with this? And why not live halfway between Rochester and Syracuse? That way, if he did take the Rochester job and lose it (although I doubt they would downsize him or relocate him so soon), then he could take advantage of the Syracuse market.

You still have to explain how Syracuse is a plus for Watertown but not for Rochester. Your argument is like me telling someone that Wilmingotn benefits form being close to Philly, but Trenton doesn't.

And why is it so great to live halfway between Syracuse and Watertown? You say that there are plenty of opportunities for him in Syracuse if he needs them. So are you implying that he might lose his job in Watertown as well? If he held his job in Watertown, then why bring up Syracuse's job market in the first place?

He asked for opinions and I gave him mine. It is every bit as valid as yours. In fact it is much more valid than yours because I unlike you (or Rocboy who also thinks things are going great here) actually live here and not hundreds of miles away. I know many many young people that have had to leave the area after college because theopportunities simply do not exist here. Our job count is going down and so is our population and so is our wealth relative to the rest of the nation. All of this has been well documented by the federal and state governments. Just look at the Rochester development site and see what qualifies as development. One idiot actually posted a new sign for a store as an indication that our economy has turned the corner.

Most young people in the Rochester area in a recent scientific survey said that they were going to move out of the area within the next five years.

In my opinion he would be far better off in Watertown than in Rochester for the reasons I have stated. You seem to totally gloss over the fact that we have the highest crime rate in the entire state and one of the highest in the northeast. The decline here over the past several years is palpable. Most people do not stay with one employer for their entire careers. There are no metro areas in the country declining in jobs faster or more persistantly than Rochester. Thus it is a very poor place to choose to have a career in. Watertown is about a half hour closer to the GROWING Syracuse area than is Rochester so if he started a career there he could live a half hour from either Watertown or Syracuse and would have the potential for a future without uprooting. That opportunity is far more limited in Rochester and becoming increasingly more so each month as our job base continues to dwindle. Syracuse jobs are up 1.3% this year while Rochester area jobs are down 1.4%. Thus central NY would appear to posess far more promise than the Rochester area.

There is a reason why Rochester is a national leader in the exporting of our young, that reason is economic opportunity which we clearly lack.

He has already stated that he isn't looking to live in the city. The city is where the crime is.... Greece is one of the safest municipalites in the nation. He has a job in Rochester, your theory that nobody can ever come there because it is so crippled and poor is wrong. I'm sorry you had to find out this way. To say that there is more opportunity in Watertown than in Rochester shows just how nuts you are.

Again, what does Syracuse have to do with this? And why not live halfway between Rochester and Syracuse? That way, if he did take the Rochester job and lose it (although I doubt they would downsize him or relocate him so soon), then he could take advantage of the Syracuse market.

You still have to explain how Syracuse is a plus for Watertown but not for Rochester. Your argument is like me telling someone that Wilmingotn benefits form being close to Philly, but Trenton doesn't.

And why is it so great to live halfway between Syracuse and Watertown? You say that there are plenty of opportunities for him in Syracuse if he needs them. So are you implying that he might lose his job in Watertown as well? If he held his job in Watertown, then why bring up Syracuse's job market in the first place?

Matt, don't bother. She's just a depressed housewife who blaims her problems on Rochester for whatever reason. We go through this almost daily on the Rochester Development News thread. She complains about the area and tells other people not to move to Rochester; yet she lives here, hates it, and stays. Go figure! I had a feeling she would hi-jack this thread sooner or later. She would DIE before she let anyone get a possitive image of Rochester!

<bullshit>

As a lifelong resident of Rochester, and frequent visitor the the Thousand Islands area, I recommend you relocate here. I have a strong affinity for the Thousand Islands area for recreation. I've even considered moving my office to the Clayton/Alex Bay area during the summers - but it's too far a drive to the nearest airport and high-speed internet service coverage is spotty.

One drawback - Watertown lacks the diversity of a large metro area, but if you're looking for a quiet community and the job you are persuing is secure, then Watertown is certainly worth considering.

If you plan to move to Rochester, come up here for a few days to scope the area. You'll find a lot of diversity among the various neighborhoods and communities in the metro.

Before you do so, post a note on this forum. Several of the locals on this forum can give you guidelines prior to the trip.

He asked for opinions and I gave him mine. It is every bit as valid as yours. In fact it is much more valid than yours because I unlike you (or Rocboy who also thinks things are going great here) actually live here and not hundreds of miles away. I know many many young people that have had to leave the area after college because theopportunities simply do not exist here. Our job count is going down and so is our population and so is our wealth relative to the rest of the nation. All of this has been well documented by the federal and state governments. Just look at the Rochester development site and see what qualifies as development. One idiot actually posted a new sign for a store as an indication that our economy has turned the corner.

Most young people in the Rochester area in a recent scientific survey said that they were going to move out of the area within the next five years.

Your argument doesn't seem so valid to me, inasmuch that you don't seem to answer his question, but rather answer a different question entirely.

The reason your argument is faulty is because 1) you act as if he is simply looking for a job, not that he was offered a job, and 2) you act like he's going to get fired as soon as he starts working. I would think that whoever has offered to hire him will keep him around for a while: they will be spending time and money to train him, and if he is young (which I think he is), his salary will be lower than the salary of someone older and/or who has been with the company for a long time.

You continuously bring up all of these jobs leaving town and all of these young people leaving town. But what does that have to do with him if he already has a job offer? It doesn't matter if 0 people, 1 person, or 100,000 people leave Rochester; that job offer will still be on the table until he accepts it or rejects it.

Notice that I am not debating your other points, like crime. That is because that is the kind of information he was asking for. He simply wants a comparison of each city, not about how the job market in Syracuse is or anything like that.

...I know many many young people that have had to leave the area after college because theopportunities simply do not exist here...Most young people in the Rochester area in a recent scientific survey said that they were going to move out of the area within the next five years.
Oh please, it happens everywhere. They're kids. I said I was moving out too, and I did. Now where am I? Plus, every job doesn't exist in every city. Also, people/families simply just don't stay together to the same extent they did even just 20 years ago; we've become a far more mobile society. You don't seem to take that into account. I'll be willing to bet you that the same survey in Watertown would yield an even higher percentage. Have you ever been to Watertown? Though I'd hesitate to call it "depressed", it's not the most viable place in the US. I'm not trying to bash it, because I like the area it's in - but saying it's better off than Rochester (as if that were the issue at stake) is just plain kooky.

I think our friend here has just learned of Rochester's most negative aspect. Let me be the first to say, if you choose Rochester, Welcome to Western New York. You'll just love some of the people around here (though I'm sure anywhere has them too).

If the young man wants to live in an area that is going downhill, in an area with high crime and cloudy skies - the cloudiest metro upstate. Then he should move to Rochester. If he prefers to do his shopping at going out of business sales such as at Chase Pitkin then he should move to Rochester. If he wants to move to a community that is fast losing it's middle class to the south than he should choose Rochester. If he thinks the opinion of someone living in the Carolina's such as 17 year old Rocboy or someone living in Delaware such as xzmattzx are more in tuned with what is happening here than a native who still lives here than so be it. I have seen a dramatic decline in this metro over the past 15 years and has seen this decline deepen over the last 3 or 4 years. If it was 1980 I would say come to Rochester but in 2006 I can not. How come none of you mentioned the masssive property and or sales tax increases that will be necessary to close out counties 80 million budget gap.

Don't sugar coat and lie to someone that is making a life decision - that is just cruel.

No susie.... what's cruel is keeping yourself in such a terrible area as Rochester. You shouldn't be so cruel to yourself; you should move away from Rochester imediately! You don't have to suffer that much and you don't deserve it!

If the young man wants to live in an area that is going downhill, in an area with high crime and cloudy skies - the cloudiest metro upstate. Then he should move to Rochester. If he prefers to do his shopping at going out of business sales such as at Chase Pitkin then he should move to Rochester. If he wants to move to a community that is fast losing it's middle class to the south than he should choose Rochester. If he thinks the opinion of someone living in the Carolina's such as 17 year old Rocboy or someone living in Delaware such as xzmattzx are more in tuned with what is happening here than a native who still lives here than so be it. I have seen a dramatic decline in this metro over the past 15 years and has seen this decline deepen over the last 3 or 4 years. If it was 1980 I would say come to Rochester but in 2006 I can not. How come none of you mentioned the masssive property and or sales tax increases that will be necessary to close out counties 80 million budget gap.

Don't sugar coat and lie to someone that is making a life decision - that is just cruel.

Go ahead and tell him why Rochester is so bad, but why don't you give him some information to back it up? All you seem to be saying is stuff like "yound people are leaving", "crime is highest in the state here", "Syracuse is growing", etc. Maybe you can explain to him why the economic outlook for the city will put his job into jeopardy? Maybe you can also explain to him why people are leaving, so he can see if something similar could happen to him?

Making statements that don't pertain to him don't help him much. If you hate Rochester, that's fine, but he wants an unbiased opinion that will help him make a decision on his job, and you should give your opinion to him in a manner that will help him on an individual level.

On a more serious note. Engineer; take tally; The person who actually lives in the imediate Rochester area and not an exurb (Susie's way out in Hamlin, Blang is in Penfield), says it's a decent place. I will send you a PM with the link to another forum where most of the threads are pertaining to questions like yours.

Growth without growth


BY KRESTIA DEGEORGE


Like a lot of people, Neil Jaschik has his e-mail set up to append a quote to each outgoing message.

Jaschik's, attributed to the second-century Rabbi Tarfon, reads this way:

"It may not be your obligation to finish the task; but neither are you permitted to refrain from beginning it."

They're fitting words for anyone engaged in the often Sisyphean task of promoting healthy land-use planning. But they're doubly so considering the contents of the e-mail that accompanied them to our inbox:

"I am sorry to have to inform you," the opening sentence read, "that due to loss of funding and staff, the Common Good Planning Center will no longer be functioning as it has in the past, effective July 1, 2006."

The e-mail takes a Tarfonian twist, assuring its readers that the center is working to bequeath its mission --- "developing communities in ways that are ecologically sustainable, economically productive, and socially equitable" --- to like-minded organizations in Rochester.

Still, it's not hard to feel as though this marks the end of an era. Sprawl hasn't stopped; between 2000 and 2004, MonroeCounty added more than 6,000 housing units while losing nearly 27,000 people, according to the US Census Bureau.

And while sprawl continues, one of the few local organizations focusing on growth and planning policies is folding.

Despite what Jaschik describes as a growing awareness of the problems associated with sprawl, the CommonGoodPlanningCenter never gained a financial foothold.

In a recent interview, he talked about those conditions, and what the community ought to be focusing on. Following is an edited transcript of that discussion:

City: What's changed in terms of the built environment and how it affects people, and what hasn't?

Jaschik: Well, probably the problem is what hasn't changed. We still continue to sprawl, build in the suburbs --- not only build in the suburbs but do it in a way that increases housing size, increases land that's being used, increases our dependence on the automobile, continues to screen out affordable housing except in very limited instances, and continues to concentrate poverty. And there's just been very little attempt to turn these forces around. So it's been a frustrating eight years.

I worked on a very good report called Benchmarking Greater Rochester that was done with the assistance of the Center for Governmental Research. We looked through a whole host of indicators --- demographic, economic, transportation, social, and other indicators --- of what's going on in the Greater Rochester area, vis-ŕ-vis about 30 other metropolitan areas. And we sort of did a US News and World Report ranking thing. We showed how in certain measures, the Rochester area was way behind and in other measures we were very good.

In basic resources, Rochester was really ahead of the curve, particularly in terms of brain power. And one of the measures of that was patents per capita. I think we were like second or third in the country, just behind Silicon Valley. So on the input measures --- the relative education, the kind of companies we had here --- we had it.

But on the output measures --- the growth in income, the environmental condition --- we were down in the bottom third. One of the main reasons is that we do not cooperate as a community. We don't put it together and plan as a single regional entity. And that has been one of the main messages the CommonGoodPlanningCenter has tried to get across.

You do have occasional cooperative efforts where towns and villages might plan together jointly or under the Quality Communities Program. The three western towns and OrleansCounty, for instance, put together a joint planning effort. But it's just hit or miss, and there's not real pressure or persuasion to maintain that.

That report, which came out in late 1999, did have a little bit of buzz attached to it, and people did look at it. Unfortunately, as with so many of these reports, after the initial buzz nobody used it as we hoped it'd be used: as a focus for a plan of action.

You've said you hope some other organizations will pick up some of this work. What are some of our biggest challenges?

The biggest is this: Don't let any more of our precious resources go away. Make this an attractive community to maintain. There's been a whole lot written already about the brain drain, so I won't beat that into the ground, but that's real, and that's a major concern.

Because we are not growing, we actually have an opportunity. There's no reason to continue additional development at the scale that it goes on. The reality that we're running out of fossil fuel will make an impact on people's psyches --- to understand that we have to rethink the way we live and travel and work and relate to one another.

What are the most disturbing trends that you've noticed over the past eight years?

I think the lack of interest in trying to come together as a region --- because none of these problems are going to be solved unless we cooperate. And it's going to take more than just entering into these so-called voluntary arrangements. Because it's like a cartel: as soon as one entity sees its advantage to break out of the system, it will.

I know this is heresy in New York State, but you do need some requirement, some mandate from on high that says certain levels of decisions can only be made at a regional level or at a county level.

David Rusk [the nationally known regionalism expert] put out a report a couple of years ago that made the point that waiting for New York to come together and try to create the regions like they did in Ontario is going to be like waiting for Godot. But counties, at least in Upstate, could serve as very real proxies for that regional government if they got off their duffs and tried to exert some more authority. So, yeah, I think there's some hope that can happen.

David Rusk talked about Rochester reaching a tipping point, where once you get beyond a certain point, you can't recover. Do you think we've reached that point?

I think using the measures that he used in defining that, and using more current data than when he came here back in the late 90's, you might see that. I don't know for sure. I think it had to do with the percent minorities living in the central city, the difference between the median income of the central city and the suburbs....On all of those measures, we have certainly gotten worse. But I don't think that tipping point was an absolute thing. If you use that kind of stuff to say, 'Well, we're over the falls; we might as well throw it in,' it's not going to be very helpful.

It may have changed over time, but the difference between the way an average Canadian or British citizen views their government and the way an average American views their government is the difference between night and day. Obviously they also complain about taxes and corruption and incompetence. Unfortunately, people don't get that lathered up about the corruption and incompetence within corporate America, but that's another story.

Here are Rusk’s three “point of no return” criteria and what has happened since he issued his warning.

1) A population loss of 20 percent or more from the city’s peak
1950 332,488
1990 232,000 30 percent loss
2000 219,773 34 percent loss

2) A minority population of 30% or more
1990 40 percent
2000 47.8 percent

3) Income disparity: median income level for city residents that is less than 70% that of the region’s
1990 71 percent
2000 60.4 percent

Growth without growth


BY KRESTIA DEGEORGE


Like a lot of people, Neil Jaschik has his e-mail set up to append a quote to each outgoing message.

Jaschik's, attributed to the second-century Rabbi Tarfon, reads this way:

"It may not be your obligation to finish the task; but neither are you permitted to refrain from beginning it."

They're fitting words for anyone engaged in the often Sisyphean task of promoting healthy land-use planning. But they're doubly so considering the contents of the e-mail that accompanied them to our inbox:

"I am sorry to have to inform you," the opening sentence read, "that due to loss of funding and staff, the Common Good Planning Center will no longer be functioning as it has in the past, effective July 1, 2006."

The e-mail takes a Tarfonian twist, assuring its readers that the center is working to bequeath its mission --- "developing communities in ways that are ecologically sustainable, economically productive, and socially equitable" --- to like-minded organizations in Rochester.

Still, it's not hard to feel as though this marks the end of an era. Sprawl hasn't stopped; between 2000 and 2004, MonroeCounty added more than 6,000 housing units while losing nearly 27,000 people, according to the US Census Bureau.

And while sprawl continues, one of the few local organizations focusing on growth and planning policies is folding.

Despite what Jaschik describes as a growing awareness of the problems associated with sprawl, the CommonGoodPlanningCenter never gained a financial foothold.

In a recent interview, he talked about those conditions, and what the community ought to be focusing on. Following is an edited transcript of that discussion:

City: What's changed in terms of the built environment and how it affects people, and what hasn't?

Jaschik: Well, probably the problem is what hasn't changed. We still continue to sprawl, build in the suburbs --- not only build in the suburbs but do it in a way that increases housing size, increases land that's being used, increases our dependence on the automobile, continues to screen out affordable housing except in very limited instances, and continues to concentrate poverty. And there's just been very little attempt to turn these forces around. So it's been a frustrating eight years.

I worked on a very good report called Benchmarking Greater Rochester that was done with the assistance of the Center for Governmental Research. We looked through a whole host of indicators --- demographic, economic, transportation, social, and other indicators --- of what's going on in the Greater Rochester area, vis-ŕ-vis about 30 other metropolitan areas. And we sort of did a US News and World Report ranking thing. We showed how in certain measures, the Rochester area was way behind and in other measures we were very good.

In basic resources, Rochester was really ahead of the curve, particularly in terms of brain power. And one of the measures of that was patents per capita. I think we were like second or third in the country, just behind Silicon Valley. So on the input measures --- the relative education, the kind of companies we had here --- we had it.

But on the output measures --- the growth in income, the environmental condition --- we were down in the bottom third. One of the main reasons is that we do not cooperate as a community. We don't put it together and plan as a single regional entity. And that has been one of the main messages the CommonGoodPlanningCenter has tried to get across.

You do have occasional cooperative efforts where towns and villages might plan together jointly or under the Quality Communities Program. The three western towns and OrleansCounty, for instance, put together a joint planning effort. But it's just hit or miss, and there's not real pressure or persuasion to maintain that.

That report, which came out in late 1999, did have a little bit of buzz attached to it, and people did look at it. Unfortunately, as with so many of these reports, after the initial buzz nobody used it as we hoped it'd be used: as a focus for a plan of action.

You've said you hope some other organizations will pick up some of this work. What are some of our biggest challenges?

The biggest is this: Don't let any more of our precious resources go away. Make this an attractive community to maintain. There's been a whole lot written already about the brain drain, so I won't beat that into the ground, but that's real, and that's a major concern.

Because we are not growing, we actually have an opportunity. There's no reason to continue additional development at the scale that it goes on. The reality that we're running out of fossil fuel will make an impact on people's psyches --- to understand that we have to rethink the way we live and travel and work and relate to one another.

What are the most disturbing trends that you've noticed over the past eight years?

I think the lack of interest in trying to come together as a region --- because none of these problems are going to be solved unless we cooperate. And it's going to take more than just entering into these so-called voluntary arrangements. Because it's like a cartel: as soon as one entity sees its advantage to break out of the system, it will.

I know this is heresy in New York State, but you do need some requirement, some mandate from on high that says certain levels of decisions can only be made at a regional level or at a county level.

David Rusk [the nationally known regionalism expert] put out a report a couple of years ago that made the point that waiting for New York to come together and try to create the regions like they did in Ontario is going to be like waiting for Godot. But counties, at least in Upstate, could serve as very real proxies for that regional government if they got off their duffs and tried to exert some more authority. So, yeah, I think there's some hope that can happen.

David Rusk talked about Rochester reaching a tipping point, where once you get beyond a certain point, you can't recover. Do you think we've reached that point?

I think using the measures that he used in defining that, and using more current data than when he came here back in the late 90's, you might see that. I don't know for sure. I think it had to do with the percent minorities living in the central city, the difference between the median income of the central city and the suburbs....On all of those measures, we have certainly gotten worse. But I don't think that tipping point was an absolute thing. If you use that kind of stuff to say, 'Well, we're over the falls; we might as well throw it in,' it's not going to be very helpful.

It may have changed over time, but the difference between the way an average Canadian or British citizen views their government and the way an average American views their government is the difference between night and day. Obviously they also complain about taxes and corruption and incompetence. Unfortunately, people don't get that lathered up about the corruption and incompetence within corporate America, but that's another story.

Here are Rusk’s three “point of no return” criteria and what has happened since he issued his warning.

1) A population loss of 20 percent or more from the city’s peak
1950 332,488
1990 232,000 30 percent loss
2000 219,773 34 percent loss

2) A minority population of 30% or more
1990 40 percent
2000 47.8 percent

3) Income disparity: median income level for city residents that is less than 70% that of the region’s
1990 71 percent
2000 60.4 percent



A minority population of 30% or more makes a city a place a "point of no return". So just about every major city is beyond the point of no return? You racist, inbred, hickass bitch!.... whew, had to vent there for a moment, my apoligies to everyone else eventhough I'm sure you think similar things. Also, Monroe County has definitely not lost 27,000 people in 4 years. It has lost 2,400; Ontario County, (right next door) gained 4,000.

I still don't see the connection between the exodus in Rochester and Engineer's job offer. Maybe I'm missing something? :dunno:

The only think you are missing matt is months and months worth of this crap from Susie almost daily. She doesn't care about engineer of have his intrests in mind at all; this is just another opportunity for Susie to flame Rochester. She is just a miserable fat old lady who likes to come on the internet and blast her home town to vent her frustrations at the world. It's kind of sad actually; can you imagine what her real life must be like if she puts so much energy into bashing the area where she lives?

But that last thing she posted was the most outragous I've seen yet; hence the "racist, inmbred, hickass bitch" comment.

see below

A minority population of 30% or more makes a city a place a "point of no return". So just about every major city is beyond the point of no return? You racist, inbred, hickass bitch!.... whew, had to vent there for a moment, my apoligies to everyone else eventhough I'm sure you think similar things. Also, Monroe County has definitely not lost 27,000 people in 4 years. It has lost 2,400; Ontario County, (right next door) gained 4,000.
My your youth is showing. This is not my hypothesis it is that of David Rusk former mayory of Albuquerque and one of the most repected experts on urban America today. That is why he was brought in by the City.

http://www.demographia.com/db-rusk.htm

BTW the 27,000 is what City Paper printed, they said it is from the census bureau. I take their word from Rochester over that of the ramblings of a 17 year old kid from hundreds and hundreds of miles away.

see above

You still posted it saying that it was proving your point. You are a racist inbred hickass bitch just like I said. Really sad. By the way, I like how you are trying to cover it up by positing the same thing mulitple times so the thread will go to another page. It's almost clever!

I'll say it again;

The only think you are missing matt is months and months worth of this crap from Susie almost daily. She doesn't care about engineer of have his intrests in mind at all; this is just another opportunity for Susie to flame Rochester. She is just a miserable fat old lady who likes to come on the internet and blast her home town to vent her frustrations at the world. It's kind of sad actually; can you imagine what her real life must be like if she puts so much energy into bashing the area where she lives?

But that last thing she posted was the most outragous I've seen yet; hence the "racist, inmbred, hickass bitch" comment.

"racist,.

:scouserd:
Now, that would be tough for me to pull off ! ! !



inmbred,

Is this how they teach you to spell down south?

Just as an aside to all the childish antics on this forum by Ms. Susie and Mr. RocGuy I'll provide stats of the booming Syracuse and Buffalo she speaks of.

Census Stats:
ONONDAGA COUNTY (SYRACUSE)

2000: 458,336
2004 (Estimate): 446,002

CHANGE: (12,334)

ERIE COUNTY (BUFFALO)

2000: 950,265
2004 (Estimate): 905,385

CHANGE: (44,800)

So as you can see New York sucks, because of high taxes, and nothing else. It is not subject to one small area or anything like Susan believes that it is. This is a system wide thing, so everyone quit the pissing match.

After further review even Albany County has lost population according to the census information.

2000: 294,565
2004: 281,607

CHANGE: (12,958)

I've long been curious about Watertown... anybody got any pics?

Watertown is the hometown of Richard Greico.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/59/Richardgriecocover.jpg

nobody ever talks about Syracuse...WTF

Man, has this gotten out of hand.

Someone comes around to help buck the trend, and all we do (I'm not accusing all of you :)) throw the trend right in his face. Yeah, that's self-improvement. If I didn't know better, I'd say you rather enjoy this predicament!. Shameful.

Hey ROCguy - at least she's not calling you a 12 or 13 year old anymore, you've graduated up to 17. Way to act your age!

I got a migrane (literaly) after logging off earler. (thank god my mom had some imitrex left over from a perscription. lol). Buff; you are right about Syracuse; lol, Hero just made a huge upstate ny picture thread and didn't even post any of Syracuse! I almost feel bad for them.

what are you talking about? there's plenty of Syracuse in Hero's thread.

definietly go with rochester. watertown is ok but it's small and boring...especially if you're younger.

half of my senior class ended up in ROC (the other in NC) so there is something good going on over there. if i HAD to relcate back to NYS, rochester would probably be it. or albany...

what are you talking about? there's plenty of Syracuse in Hero's thread.

Really? I must have missed it. I only saw Albany, Buffalo, Bimghamton, Rochester, Troy, and Saratoga Spings.

Nevermind, I just looked back at it and saw them.

The scuttlebut that my husband is hearing around the office is that 1,500 of these additional layoffs will be in Rochester. Add this to Rochester's remaining share of the origianl 25,000 announced layoff and you will see that Kodak is going to lay off at least 3,750 more people in Rochester But hey at least Kodak wins awards for diversity!

Kodak losses up; more worldwide layoffs likely


David Tyler
Staff writer


(August 1, 2006) — Eastman Kodak Co. reported its seventh consecutive quarterly loss this morning and said it expects to lay off as many as 2,000 more workers worldwide.

Rochester's second largest employer reported a loss of $282 million, or 98 cents a share, on revenue of $3.36 billion. That compares with a loss of $155 million, or 54 cents a share, in the same period a year ago.

Excluding restructuring charges, the loss was $167 million, compared with a loss of $137 million in the year-ago quarter. Revenue in the second quarter of 2005 was $3.69 billion.

Analysts surveyed by Thomson One Analytics had been expecting operating earnings of $69 million, or 24 cents a share, on revenue of $3.47 billion.

Kodak said it has eliminated 20,500 of a planned 25,000 jobs worldwide and now expects to lay off a total of 25,000 to 27,000 workers. Total restructuring charges from the program will be between $3 billion and $3.4 billion, the company said. At the end of 2005, the last time Kodak reported local employment numbers, the company had 14,100 workers in the Rochester area.

"Our second-quarter results demonstrate continuing progress in the execution of our digital business strategy and the implementation of our digital business model," Antonio M. Perez, chairman and chief executive officer, said in a printed statement released this morning.

"We are coming into the final stages of our digital transformation. By the end of next year, the majority of the restructuring costs will be behind us and Kodak will be positioned for sustained success in digital markets."

Kodak also said it was entering into a deal with Flextronics International Ltd. to manufacture and distribute Kodak's consumer digital cameras on a worldwide basis, and to handle certain development and design functions. Under the deal, approximately 550 Kodak employees are being transferred to Flextronics. It was not immediately clear where those employees would be stationed.

"This evolution in our digital capture operating model is consistent with our strategy and will enable us to compete in this business with greater flexibility, cost efficiency and predictability," said Perez. "It will support our margin expansion efforts and enable us to better serve our customers and consumers by delivering Kodak's innovative digital products through the world-class operations of Flextronics."

Flextronics also does contract manufacturing for Xerox Corp.

Kodak also said it now expects revenue from digital products to grow more slowly, at a 10 percent clip, rather than the previously forecast 16 to 22 percent.

Perez and Chief Financial Officer Robert Brust will discuss results during an 11 a.m. conference call with analysts. To listen to the call visit www.kodak.com/go/invest. If you would like to receive text alerts on earnings reports from Kodak or other local companies in the future, click on the "text alert" icon on the homepage to subscribe.

DTYLER@DemocratandChronicle.com

Has anyone realized that engineer hasn't made a post on this thread since the day he made it? Congradulations susie you scared him off from this forum (but unfortunetly for you, the last post he made, still seemed like he was choosing Rochester; mission failed susie)

My your youth is showing. This is not my hypothesis it is that of David Rusk former mayory of Albuquerque and one of the most repected experts on urban America today. That is why he was brought in by the City.

http://www.demographia.com/db-rusk.htm

BTW the 27,000 is what City Paper printed, they said it is from the census bureau. I take their word from Rochester over that of the ramblings of a 17 year old kid from hundreds and hundreds of miles away.

hahahahahahahahahaha, the fact that you, the city of rochester, or anyone for that matter, would consider an employee or associate of demographia.com/wendall cox an expert on anything is just laughable.

demographia is a great resource for statistical information. its value however, ends there. the majority of planners and economists alike feel that wendall cox(demographia), the cascade policy institute, and their associates to be amongst the most biased urban-issue-oriented think tanks around.

a few years ago they(CPI) were hired to "research" economic feasibility for light rail in milwaukie,wi. a milwaukie journalist found that while they were on the city's payroll, they were also on the payroll of several large, private transit operators who lobby heavily against public transit expansion nation wide. i will see if i can dig up a few articles on the topic.

the fact that the city of rochester would even consider hiring a consultant affiliated with an organization that is known for pushing private interest, shows a lack of knowledge and failure to research on the part of the city.
the fact that you would actually sight demographia and its affiliates as a reliable source, shows you're lack of insight on the subject.

I'm pretty sure that the city of Rochester never actually hired this firm to study anything. I think that this was just someone elses insight form the forum, I could be wrong though

Mr. Rusk is far more of an expert on Urban America than you could ever hope to be. He does not "work" for demographia. He is a well respected independent author and has published many books on the subject of urban revitalization.

Just because you don't like the message is no reason to make false accusations and try to (and fail) disparage the messenger.

The scuttlebut that my husband is hearing around the office is that 1,500 of these [3,750] additional layoffs will be in Rochester. Add this to Rochester's remaining share of the origianl 25,000 announced layoff and you will see that Kodak is going to lay off at least 3,750 more people in Rochester But hey at least Kodak wins awards for diversity!
So which is it, 3,750 or 1,500?

Mr. Rusk is far more of an expert on Urban America than you could ever hope to be. He does not "work" for demographia. He is a well respected independent author and has published many books on the subject of urban revitalization.

Just because you don't like the message is no reason to make false accusations and try to (and fail) disparage the messenger.


Susie,

If your such an expert what are you doing living in Rochester? I mean i would have thought you would have hopped on the LAST ferry run over to the real city on Lake Ontario by now since you hate ROC so much.. I guess what you fail to realize is that the lifestyle that can be had in Western NY is second to none if you land a decent job. I live in downtown Toronto and have been trying to move to Western NY for a couple years now, as i believe its a really good place to buy a house and raise a family. Here are some examples as to why..

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Susie.. common, why trash a place where you can get so much for so little? Those of us who live in "REAL" cities ussually want out !! Big Cities are good places to live while your young.. but after that.. its hard to make a nice life for your family..

WZ1:
I noticed that you said you want to move to WNY, obviously our lack of economic opportunities makes that impossible. Thanks for proving my point!

So which is it, 3,750 or 1,500?
I thought I was clear, it's 1,500 of yesterdays announcement plus 2,250 previously announced but not yet eliminated. Plus do not underestimate the spinoff multiplier effect which will probably cost another 2,000 or so jobs in the economy.

WZ1:
I noticed that you said you want to move to WNY, obviously our lack of economic opportunities makes that impossible. Thanks for proving my point!


I have had offers, its getting my future wife a work visa thats the problem, so i really didnt prove anything..

susie, why are YOU still in rochester? shit or get off the pot...but quit bitching about it.