There was a story in the Wall Street Journal yesterday about the "new skyscraper" and it featured the proposed Museum Plaza in Loiuisville. I don't know if anyone else has seen the renderings for this building, but it is absolutely hideous and it doesn't flow well within the cities existing skyline.
Why rush to build such a haphazard building? The concept of combining a hotel with a museum, residential and office space is good, don't get me wrong, but the design is totally off. That's a very hard design to pull off, even in Chicago.
This will be very interesting to watch. :eek2:

I have slated this project from day 1! I too like the idea of it, but the design and its relation to the street level is horrifying! I could even look past the design if it was incoporated into the immediate area. The whole open-plaza portion sucks. As a planner by trade, this is something that I thought died back in the 1970's. By "isolating" the activity in this building from the rest of the street activity, you really run the risk of it acting as a "vaccuum" and doing more harm than good. NOW, if this idea were built in a structure that was accessible from the sidewalk I would be more open to the idea. BUT, with a shoddy grain elevator as the entrance...oooh...poor planning.

The design is challenging but I think it will fit well with downtown. Downtown Louisville is anything but homogenous. It will complement the post-modern architecture along with the boring international styles that already exist.

As far as the street interaction goes: it will be accessible from Main St. I don't know how much more plainly that can be stated. If you don't think the 3 blocks of cast iron buildings this will be behind will benefit, then that is your speculation. I would imagine they would become hot property given the amount of traffic that will be on that side of downtown. With the plan of connecting the MP with the Ali Museum and the Belvedere, this project is not as "isolated" as you claim it is.

The entire purpose of this building is to make a statement for modern art and urban lifestyles. If you don't think it will accomplish this, fine. But, I do.

I have slated this project from day 1! I too like the idea of it, but the design and its relation to the street level is horrifying! I could even look past the design if it was incoporated into the immediate area. The whole open-plaza portion sucks. As a planner by trade, this is something that I thought died back in the 1970's. By "isolating" the activity in this building from the rest of the street activity, you really run the risk of it acting as a "vaccuum" and doing more harm than good. NOW, if this idea were built in a structure that was accessible from the sidewalk I would be more open to the idea. BUT, with a shoddy grain elevator as the entrance...oooh...poor planning.
I really don't think they would be so stupid as to just put a big fat slab of concrete for the underneath plaza. The only renderings we have that show the plaza area have shown it as a gray box with some steps. I think its just unfinished. They were more interested in getting the design out. I don't believe they have shown us what the plaza will really look like. We haven't a clue how it will relate to the street yet. There are no images of main entrances, street levels or anything.
If you are going by that video, then I dont think you have to worry because it is full of unrefined and non-specific details, including, yes the plaza. It will not be a big gray block. Like you said, that was left in the 70's.. (and europe..)

I just saw that soulbrotha had taken these a while ago. They give a bit more insight into the sort of thought put into the relationship with the street level:

http://www.pbase.com/soulbrotha4620/image/57263846/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/soulbrotha4620/image/57263843/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/soulbrotha4620/image/57263842/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/soulbrotha4620/image/57263848/original.jpg

Sorry. but the more I look at it, the more I find this thing absolutely neato..
http://www.pbase.com/soulbrotha4620/image/57263858/original.jpg

See RenCen, Detroit. Learn from past mistakes!

Hardly..
Try looking at the numbers before you talk out your ass.
If we're talking in terms of design, then thats also absurd because this is not a goliath that consumes the skyline.

EDIT:
"The entire complex[RenCen] has 5.5 million square feet of office space"

...

"Museum plaza will have 300,000 square feet of office space"

HMMMM
Thats to dispel any thought that it will suck up Louisville's market, which it wont.

Museum Plaza is definitely not Ren Cen. Ren Cen when it was built was in complete isolation from Detroit's CBD, and the riverfront was basically the back door. Now Detroit has infill plaza areas along the Detroit River, it doesn't seem like an alien ship landed.

Museum Plaza is very walkable to whole of downtown Louisville, and more connected to the city grid, and pedestrian traffic. But the other major distinction, this not a John Portman-esque gold glassed cylinder like Peachtree Plaza, or Rosemont, IL Hyatt, etc.
the South tower of Museum Plaza integrates well with the existing established heights of downtown skyscrapers as well.

If that is the case, I apologize about the RenCen comparison. But, looking at the renderings posted above, the base of the structure looks very similar to that of the auto-oriented nature of RenCen in Detroit. With berms and massive stark contrasts in urban design, it just looked very similar to RenCen.

It is important to note that contrary to popular belief, the RenCen design did offer several pedestrian access points to Detroit. They were just poorly designed and placed in such a way that no one would use them. When designing such things, it is important to note that people wont just use the pedestrian access because it is there.

^^
I agree that it does have a similar effects in terms of appearance and relation to existing buildings, but luckily, it is not as harsh, nore overpowering as the RenCen.

But with all this negatve talk on the RenCen, I have to be nice and give it some love. It is still a very interesting complex and an impressize structure. ;)

The Ren Cen it is not. I think it's marvelous.

I hate to say this but after looking at the pcitures of the Museum Plaza time after time but the structure is ugly...pure ugly.

I just don't get it? Maybe if there were a few more renderings available / details.. Is there a website?

Ahh the power of google... http://www.museumplaza.net/

But still.. the renderings on the site don't help much.. Interesting concept but it just seems so out of touch with the rest of the city.. especially when you see the skyline shots with the rest of the city along side with it.

I have slated this project from day 1! I too like the idea of it, but the design and its relation to the street level is horrifying! I could even look past the design if it was incoporated into the immediate area. The whole open-plaza portion sucks. As a planner by trade, this is something that I thought died back in the 1970's. By "isolating" the activity in this building from the rest of the street activity, you really run the risk of it acting as a "vaccuum" and doing more harm than good. NOW, if this idea were built in a structure that was accessible from the sidewalk I would be more open to the idea. BUT, with a shoddy grain elevator as the entrance...oooh...poor planning.

I bet you'd be creaming your pants if this were proposed in Indy...

I hate to say this but after looking at the pcitures of the Museum Plaza time after time but the structure is ugly...pure ugly.
I agree. Not only is it ugly, but off by the side like it will be and with that design, it will not only be ugly but will basically be screaming, "LOOK AT ME!! I AM SOOOO NOTICEABLE AND SOOOO UGLY!!!!!"

*This is not an attack on Louisville...I like Louisville...I just think this building design is heinous!*

I go back and forth on this one. Sometimes I like it, sometimes I dont. Guess I will reserve my judgement until the thing gets built and I can see it in person.

http://www.worldarchitecturenews.com/project/uploaded_files/362_museumplaza.jpg

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/9755/mplouisvilleiu9.th.jpg (http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mplouisvilleiu9.jpg)


=


http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6261/kaliningraddm7.th.jpg (http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kaliningraddm7.jpg)











:jk:

I bet you'd be creaming your pants if this were proposed in Indy...


:bash: Must you CONSTANTLY single me out??? Your obsession with me is not healthy!

No, I would not be creaming my pants....I would be on the phone to former planning co-workers at the City making sure that they would be requiring a redesign of this hideous thing! This structure IS NOT good planning! Simple as that. YOU DO NOT build a structure in a downtown that isolates its self from the street traffic (much like Circle Centre). There is a reason why most downtown malls have failed...they are not integrated into their environments. Indy's Circle Centre is a HUGE exception. "Museum Spasm" needs to have a traditional base with traditional integration into its surroundings...not a museum and "retail" 20stories from the street, accessible by a grain elevator. I know you Louisville people think "WOW, 60-stories..." BUT, you all are being short-sighted. If/when this thing gets built, enjoy it while you can, because the honeymoon will be short-lived.

I really like this project. For Tokyo. It's the kind of thing that the Japanese would go crazy for. I'm not sure how it might work in Louisville, but I'm looking forward to finding out. I hope it's a spectacular success!

articles...videos...pics....

article
http://archrecord.construction.com/news/daily/archives/060217oma.asp
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060210/NEWS01/602100364
http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/feb2006/id20060223_523277.htm?chan=innovation_architecture_architecture+lead
http://www.wowflutter.com/2006/04/25/the-museum-plaza-in-louisville-using-video-to-create-a-vision-of-a-new-place/
http://www.bdcnetwork.com/article/CA6342161.html
http://www.archiseek.com/onsite/architecture_design/
http://www.contractmagazine.com/contract/design_news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001995395
http://www.leovia.com/?q=node/589
http://lifewithoutbuildings.net/2006/02/oma-will-eat-itself_113956380155032137.html




video
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=842158740734770916&q=museum+plaza

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-288895071044986767&q=joshua+ramus


pics
http://www.pbase.com/abdulsharif/image/56133659.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/abdulsharif/image/56133666.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/abdulsharif/image/55899128.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/abdulsharif/image/56283015.jpg

http://www.bdcnetwork.com/contents/images/bdc0606dboard14.jpg


museum plaza will fit right in to the left.....

<<-----
http://www.pbase.com/abdulsharif/image/60458148/large.jpg


---------------

updates

-M.A. Mortenson Co., of Minneapolis, has been named the construction managers for Museum Plaza, according to a news release
The company has project operations in 47 states and multiple international locations. Its projects have included:

the Museum of Contemporary Art in Denver
http://rda.rice.edu/contentimage/Adjaye.jpg

the Metropolitan Tower in Seattle
http://www.ckcps.com/images/lg_vert_metro.jpg

and the Walt Disney Concert Hall in Los Angeles
http://www.artexcursions.com/images/concerthall.jpg

according to the release.


-Houston-based Kendall/Heaton Associates has been named executive architects.

-Magnusson Klemencic Associates, which formerly collaborated with the OMA team on the striking Seattle Central Library project, will serve as structural and civil engineers. The company is located in Seattle.

-Consultants located in Louisville include Land Design & Development as associate civil engineers and AMEC as geotechnical engineers

-Other consultants that recently have joined the Museum Plaza team are Newcomb & Boyd, mechanical, electrical and plumbing engineers located in Atlanta; Front Inc., facade consultants, located in New York City; Persohn/Hohn, vertical transportation consultants in Houston; and Cermak Peterka Peterson, wind-study consultants in Fort Collins, Colo.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-article-a-33135-m-61-sc-83-museum_plaza_developers_name_consulting_firms-i

anyway...wtf happend to 'louisville isn't midwestern?' i haven't posted a thread in here about louisville for months...

I kind of like it for some reason.

And what happened to that guy who would always consider Louisville deep South?

I kind of like it for some reason.

And what happened to that guy who would always consider Louisville deep South?

You just said the magic words...he'll be here soon!

Louisville I dont think is ready to have a building like this. It wont work with the skyline.

:bash: Must you CONSTANTLY single me out??? Your obsession with me is not healthy!

No, I would not be creaming my pants....I would be on the phone to former planning co-workers at the City making sure that they would be requiring a redesign of this hideous thing! This structure IS NOT good planning! Simple as that. YOU DO NOT build a structure in a downtown that isolates its self from the street traffic (much like Circle Centre). There is a reason why most downtown malls have failed...they are not integrated into their environments. Indy's Circle Centre is a HUGE exception. "Museum Spasm" needs to have a traditional base with traditional integration into its surroundings...not a museum and "retail" 20stories from the street, accessible by a grain elevator. I know you Louisville people think "WOW, 60-stories..." BUT, you all are being short-sighted. If/when this thing gets built, enjoy it while you can, because the honeymoon will be short-lived.

What is it that is so offensive (not visually, that's your opinion) about the function of this building. This building will add 235 dwelling units, 300 hotel rooms, 2 museums, and 300,000 sq. ft. of office space. If you saw the parcel of land, you would think it's impossible. But, I digress.

With the addition of that many downtown citizens (especially when you consider the fact that they will most likely be part of the coveted "creative class"), that many hotel guests, and that many downtown workers, how does it create a vacuum. Will the residents not venture down to Main St. for dinner, coffee or a show? Will the hotel guests not spill out into downtown to see all there is to offer? Will the downtown workers not utilize all that downtown has to offer?

Will your "grain elevator" not be a draw for out of towner's to see what it's all about? Couldn't you liken it to the St. Louis arch in that, even if all you do is look out, wouldn't want to go up in it?

I find the fact that since this is to be a) mixed use, b) connected to Main St. and c) connected to existing museums and common space, unable to be a "vacuum". If this building was an isolated office only where workers pulled into a garage, didn't leave, and pulled out, then maybe. If it were a retail outlet where patrons did the same as previously mentioned, then probably. But it's not. It is an attraction along with a function. It will add more people downtown that won't a) be able to sustain themselves in the building alone, nor b) want to.

So, aside from the asthetics, which I could care less if anyone drools or pukes over (because that is reaction and that is what the architect wants), I find it hard to buy your argument that this will be a drain on downtown.

go enroll in Planning 101 and you will get the point.

everyone forgets its connected to the ali center...which has a public park and ampitheatre.

go enroll in Planning 101 and you will get the point.

Yeah, got it. Is that the class where you learn to see the future, or the one where you learn to rebuff the designs of the most prominent architects?

So, aside from the asthetics, which I could care less if anyone drools or pukes over (because that is reaction and that is what the architect wants), I find it hard to buy your argument that this will be a drain on downtown.
It is really sad that an architect would design something just to get any kind of a reaction..This is not a good design IMO- it has no grace, harmony, does not consider the overall skyline, does not engage the rest of the buildings and is something that the citizens of Louisville will have to look at for decade upon decade-and all to satisfy some architect's desire to have 'a reaction'???
This building looks like something out of a Jenga(sp?) game. It sounds like a good idea in it's function but the design?..it just escapes me how someone could appreciate seeing that on the Louisville skyline. Seems like good idea, bad execution to me. And of course this is just my own opinion of the aesthetics of the thing..not the function. What do you think of the aesthetics of the building?..what makes it work for you?

In my opinion, either Museum Plaza will thrive and rest of the downtown area will suffer OR the rest of the downtown area will thrive and Museum Plaza will suffer. The two will not be working together toward one common environment and either way, Louisville will suffer. Again, just my opinion. My gut tells me that this is a bad idea. My eyes tell me this is a very bad idea.

Is it a done deal? Has it passed all necessary hurdles and will it really be built?

It is really sad that an architect would design something just to get any kind of a reaction..This is not a good design IMO- it has no grace, harmony, does not consider the overall skyline, does not engage the rest of the buildings and is something that the citizens of Louisville will have to look at for decade upon decade-and all to satisfy some architect's desire to have 'a reaction'???
This building looks like something out of a Jenga(sp?) game. It sounds like a good idea in it's function but the design?..it just escapes me how someone could appreciate seeing that on the Louisville skyline. Seems like good idea, bad execution to me. And of course this is just my own opinion of the aesthetics of the thing..not the function. What do you think of the aesthetics of the building?..what makes it work for you?

doesn't engage the rest of the buildings? like i said before, it will be directly connected the the Ali center and has an elevator connect straight to the rows on main street. how much more connected do you want?

the thousands of people that come to the ali center each year will probably also pass through the public plaza on the 23rd floor of museum plaza as well.

http://www.courier-journal.com/html/ali/alicenter/main.jpg

doesn't engage the rest of the buildings? like i said before, it will be directly connected the the Ali center and has an elevator connect straight to the rows on main street. how much more connected do you want?

the thousands of people that come to the ali center each year will probably also pass through the public plaza on the 23rd floor of museum plaza as well.

http://www.courier-journal.com/html/ali/alicenter/main.jpg
What I meant by 'engaging' the other buildings had nothing to do with actual physical connections. I am talking about a visual thing. It does not visually connect with the other cluster of buildings in the CBD at all. It does not harmonize with them, contrast in a pleasant way, does not 'talk' to them, magnify them, or relate to them visually in any way at all. it is an island visually and separates itself from the rest of the CBD by it's design, which only emphasizes it's mass and makes it have an even larger visual impact than it would otherwise. It does not look like any thought whatsoever was given to the actual site and skyline(Louisville) of the city that this thing is being built next to. I am not questioning it's functionality, I am questioning how it will actually look in the Louisville skyline. Thousands of people are going to have to look at this thing everyday, and if 90 percent of them detest it, then is it the right thing to build? I wonder what the average person in Louisville thinks about this design?

In my opinion, either Museum Plaza will thrive and rest of the downtown area will suffer OR the rest of the downtown area will thrive and Museum Plaza will suffer. The two will not be working together toward one common environment and either way, Louisville will suffer.
And what if it looked exactly like the Chrysler building?
Everything was eaxactly the same, the function, and the use, but it was the Chrysler building. Would it work then?

People, really the biggest thing about this building is the design. Other than that its still just another building. Sure, it has a museum on the 22nd floor, but I would consider that better than being on the ground floor.(esp considering its location) It will be the first sort of public observation deck in Louisville.
Just try and put it in every day context. As Daville said, those are workers in DT, those are residents. Where is this building going wrong? I'd prefer if you guys spelled out for me because I don't see it. And Cory, enough with the street level arguement. It hardly has a street connection anyway. For god sakes, its trapped by a highway, a flood wall, and its surrounding buildings.(Ali center and MainSt cast irons) There isn't pedestrian traffic there to begin with, and there is no way that a Contemporary Art museum will eat up all of DT's pedestrians and workers. That is the only major draw this will have from the rest of DT. How is it to suck up DT Louisville's activity?
BAH. You people make no sense.

It is really sad that an architect would design something just to get any kind of a reaction..This is not a good design IMO- it has no grace, harmony, does not consider the overall skyline, does not engage the rest of the buildings and is something that the citizens of Louisville will have to look at for decade upon decade-and all to satisfy some architect's desire to have 'a reaction'???
This building looks like something out of a Jenga(sp?) game. It sounds like a good idea in it's function but the design?..it just escapes me how someone could appreciate seeing that on the Louisville skyline. Seems like good idea, bad execution to me. And of course this is just my own opinion of the aesthetics of the thing..not the function. What do you think of the aesthetics of the building?..what makes it work for you?

I love things that are unique. When I go to a new place, I want to do and experience things that can only be done at that location. A great example is restaurants. I want to sample the best local restaurants, not a chain or corporate type. That is how I view this building. If Louisville was building another spired building, it would seem like a chain design. We see this design in so many cities its disgusting. The only "wow" factor would be it's height, but the general impression would not be long lasting. Museum Plaza is SO unique. People will look at it and remember the "ugly oil rig looking thing" or the "truly amazing, innovative design". Either way, they will remember it. It will challenge them. They'll leave or drive through Louisville, and go home and say, "You have gotta see this (monstrosity/gem) of a building in Louisville." To me, that is a good thing.

This is, however, not the first time Louisvillians have endured this discussion. The Humana Building was the topic of conversation when it was rolled out. People hated it. They thought it would ruin the skyline which consisted of only international style of architecture. However, not only has the Humana Building assimilated with the skyline and city, but has allowed other creative paths to be explored. I find Louisville's skyline to be one of the least homogenous of most other cities our size. So many buildings are unique: Humana, Waterfront Plaza, and Aegon (which does have one clone in Winston-Salem), and Museum Plaza will be one more. For this reason, I think Museum Plaza will not only thrive, but open the door and raise the bar for architecture in Louisville. Any other tower built will have to try and compete/trump MP. That may be a knee-jerk reaction to go back to a traditional look. Or, it could be a design so innovative it makes MP look like a bland corporate center. For these reasons, I love the design.

And Cory, enough with the street level arguement. It hardly has a street connection anyway. For god sakes, its trapped by a highway, a flood wall, and its surrounding buildings.(Ali center and MainSt cast irons) There isn't pedestrian traffic there to begin with, and there is no way that a Contemporary Art museum will eat up all of DT's pedestrians and workers. That is the only major draw this will have from the rest of DT. How is it to suck up DT Louisville's activity?
BAH. You people make no sense.

You completely underscore what I have been saying...hardly any street connection!! WHY build something that will FURTHER deter from pedestrian traffic? Downtowns function in North America because people are on sidewalks. When adding something new to the environment, you want to create a destination, yet at the same time, want them to be excited about the other opportunities that are also near-by. With this project, it is VERY conceivable that persons would drive their cars to either this or Ali, then, go get back in their cars and leave! It is not connected to the rest of the downtown street activity. Its all about integration and this project is not!

^ I'm not so sure about that. Remember that these are condo towers. The base of these towers perhaps should be more private than an office tower, although you can certainly make an argument to the contrary. No tourist or office worker really has any need to go to these towers at all. The tenants will most likely be the main pedestrian traffic around the base of the towers and thus the retail amenities (if any) should probably cater to them and not necessarily the rest of downtown. The office/museum portion is directly connected to the Ali Center.

On the other hand I do find heavily "program-driven" projects like these - and many of the brutalist structures of the 1970's - to be one-trick ponies. If you watch the video on the project website that describes the design it is clear that the whole complex was separated into components and juggled into an assembly that is purely a response to the program. i.e., "This is a box for people, this is another box for offices, and here's another box for the museum." It is self-conscious, too easy and preening.

But I can be a sucker for cool forms and so that doesn't make me dislike it at all. :)

you do have a point...so, who knows, maybe it will work. BUT, this building is not self-sustaining and therefore the residents of the tower have to shop/eat somewhere! Might as well just jump in the car and head out to St. Matthews instead of walking through the "void" to get over to Fourth Street Live.

Again...INTEGRATION.

you do have a point...so, who knows, maybe it will work. BUT, this building is not self-sustaining and therefore the residents of the tower have to shop/eat somewhere! Might as well just jump in the car and head out to St. Matthews instead of walking through the "void" to get over to Fourth Street Live.

Again...INTEGRATION.


True..because there is certainly nothing on W. Main and only abandoned buildings until 4th Street Live! Man, you hit the nail on the head :ohno:

lol.....do i need to pull the main street photos up?

The "Void" I referenced is the "plaza" area of Museum Spasm, not your downtown.

edit sorry.

The "Void" I referenced is the "plaza" area of Museum Spasm, not your downtown.


the public plaza is 23 stories in the air....and its directly connected by elevator to main street.

Yeah, I have yet to recieve a valid reason on why the project is destined to fail. Only more evidence to convince me it is going to work. I had forgotten about the market they had promised a while ago.
Again, I totally understand where this thing is ugly. In every respect of what is traditionally considered "pretty", this thing is the bastard son of Joan Rivers AFTER the plastic surgery. ick.
But alas, I have yet to see any contemporary art that didn't make me do a double-take, and this thing is all about contemporary art...
But it is still functionally fine, and I highly doubt that the type of people that would go to an artsy fartsy contemporary art museum aren't going to soak up all the urbanity around the museum. They arent the sort to drive up in their car, look, and then leave. It will only add to DT. I can't see how it won't... I really am baffled.

My two cents:

I'm glad they aren't building it in Indy because I'd rather not have to suffer through talking about that damn thing for the rest of my frickin life...

That said, I hope it's successful. I think it all hinges on how well the elevator thingy is designed.

Well all I know is that its ugly. I dont know anything about urban planning or anything like cwilson or somet of you guys. But for Louisvilles sake I sure hope its gos well. :)

I finally found a good picture of the structure I immediately thought of when i first saw the Museum Tower. Thanks MCC! This is in downtown Indy, a stones throw from the RCA dome and other downtown landmarks. It's called the "Citizen's Gas and Coke utility thingamajig" or something like that...

http://i.pbase.com/o2/27/474827/1/52308591.indyjul17.jpg

you Louisville people are too damn sensitive. I don't know how much more clear I can be....I am not talking about the plaza in the sky, I am talking about the vast waste of ground space that this thing "hovers" over. I don't know how you all can't see this??? It is BAD URBAN PLANNING in a donwtown environment. Simple. I understand the concept and I like it, it is just that this building is not the best to showcase the concept. If the base of this was a solid structure completely accessible from the sidewalk (not one leg of the "chair" or by a grain shaft) I would have a different opinion. And to say this is the best integrated building in the region about made me spit my coffee. THERE IS NO WAY that this is and NO WAY you will convince me otherwise. Yes, I am a planner and as a planner, this is BAD. Is the concept good; yes, but the design at the base is not and I don't like it and it is something straight out of the 1970's...a period of HORRIBLE mistakes with regards to urban planning.

I have not attacked your city at all...I know enough about DT Louisville to know that there are destinations there and that there are condos there, but why not make them more cohesive and integrated.

Ok this building is growing on me but still I think a more modern design with a WOW factor could be done. Like something other than boxes....... the two main things that I love about this building is One: it's in Kentucky and Two: its tall, other than that not much more is appealing. It looks very kin to the National City tower..........however I must say this, if it is covered in nothing but black sleek glass then it may look better than I thought. Is it going to be all glass exterior?

you Louisville people are too damn sensitive. I don't know how much more clear I can be....I am not talking about the plaza in the sky, I am talking about the vast waste of ground space that this thing "hovers" over. I don't know how you all can't see this??? It is BAD URBAN PLANNING in a donwtown environment. Simple. I understand the concept and I like it, it is just that this building is not the best to showcase the concept. If the base of this was a solid structure completely accessible from the sidewalk (not one leg of the "chair" or by a grain shaft) I would have a different opinion. And to say this is the best integrated building in the region about made me spit my coffee. THERE IS NO WAY that this is and NO WAY you will convince me otherwise. Yes, I am a planner and as a planner, this is BAD. Is the concept good; yes, but the design at the base is not and I don't like it and it is something straight out of the 1970's...a period of HORRIBLE mistakes with regards to urban planning.

I have not attacked your city at all...I know enough about DT Louisville to know that there are destinations there and that there are condos there, but why not make them more cohesive and integrated.

You have given no reason why this isn't connected to a.) 7th St. and b.) Main St. The fact of the matter is that it is connected at the street level to both of them. Why you don't see this is beyond me. You have no reason to assume people won't access or exit the building via Main St. You have no reason to assume people won't access or exit on to 7th St. directly. You are so concerned with the underground parking area and drop off that it's blinding you. People will live and work here. They have to park somewhere. That is what you want to dwell on. Why don't you want to dwell on the Main St. and 7th St. points of access as part of it's integration with it's surroundings?

you Louisville people are too damn sensitive.

Cory, maybe people wouldn't be so sensitive and listen to your opinion more if you:

A) Quit telling us all how amazing of an urban planner you are. Everyone here knows you are an urban planner. We get the point, mmkay? But just so you know, you're not the only human being on here who has studied urban planning or going to join that profession.

B) If you spoke of Museum Plaza in a more "professional" manner. At every chance you get you use derogatory phrases to describe the building...but then you scream, "BUT MY OPINION IS MORE VALID! I AM AN URBAN PLANNER!" Seriously, saying things like "grain shaft" and "Museum Spasm" are meant to be inflamatory, and then you try to sit back and say, "Well, it is YOU who is sensitive, not me! I AM AN URBAN PLANNER! My opinion is more valid!" Spare us, seriously. If you talked about the building in a manner consistant with polite society and offered actual suggestions about the site plan and integration other than just "It needs to be more traditional! It has no pedestrian access! It has a grain elevator!" people might be honestly interested in considering your opinion instead of arguing with you.

So, honestly Cory, I have no doubt you have studied the site plans and know that section of downtown Louisville well...Please tell us how you would change this building to better integrate it with the downtown streetscape. Keep in mind the flood wall, I-64, 7th Street and Main Street. Don't give us general changes, but give it some thought and some actual, concrete changes that should be made with the integration. (No design changes are going to happen to the building, so that part is moot.)

Actually Jake, I hadn't said I was an amazing planner, but thanks for pointing-out the obvious! I know that a lot of people here have studied planning, but obviously the courses in Louisville are sub-par.

How's that?

Next...

Actually Jake, I hadn't said I was an amazing planner, but thanks for pointing-out the obvious! I know that a lot of people here have studied planning, but obviously the courses in Louisville are sub-par.

How's that?



Predictable.

Ok this building is growing on me but still I think a more modern design with a WOW factor could be done. Like something other than boxes....... the two main things that I love about this building is One: it's in Kentucky and Two: its tall, other than that not much more is appealing. It looks very kin to the National City tower..........however I must say this, if it is covered in nothing but black sleek glass then it may look better than I thought. Is it going to be all glass exterior?


yep, every window will pretty much be see through. article about that.

'The new Museum Plaza skyscraper planned for downtown Louisville, for example, will have a skin of glass -- allowing people to see inside the hotel, lofts, contemporary art museum and office building. '
http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060309/SCENE05/603090331/0/FEATURES

i think too many people are jumping to conclusions just because of the rendering. the only way to judge this, is too see the final product with your own eyes. The renderings are ok, but untill you see it glowing at night, untill you see it reflecting off the ohio river, untill you see it in the fog driving down the expressway, i don't think you've really seen anything

Actually Jake, I hadn't said I was an amazing planner, but thanks for pointing-out the obvious! I know that a lot of people here have studied planning, but obviously the courses in Louisville are sub-par.

How's that?

Next...
Again, somone asked you to explain, and you don't.
I'm not arguing with you, I just want to know where you're coming from saying it has no street integration.
Go look at the pictures I posted. The renderings are, first of all, very not detailed, so I don't know how it can be said that we really know anything about how it will integrate into the street level, and second of all, there is no great mass of land below the building. It appears to be some dort of drive around that will no doubt be for the hotel leg. If it were just a great big mass of building, the only real street connection it could even make would be 7th street. As it is, they are redirecting 7th street to better connect the building to the grid.

And you know full-well I have no urban planning experience and have never had any classes. Im still in highschool. So, any time you feel like "schooling" me, go right ahead, but please explain instead of just telling me I'm wrong.

Actually Jake, I hadn't said I was an amazing planner, but thanks for pointing-out the obvious! I know that a lot of people here have studied planning, but obviously the courses in Louisville are sub-par.

How's that?

Next...
:hilarious :applause: :rofl:
Very nice!

Actually Jake, I hadn't said I was an amazing planner, but thanks for pointing-out the obvious! I know that a lot of people here have studied planning, but obviously the courses in Louisville are sub-par.

How's that?

Next...


Your comments are pompous and ill informed. As if Indy has a good urban planning schools? Please!

Anyways, if you want to talk intellectually about what the problem is with the ground floor, then explain.

But, I for one, think everyone on here has explained to you well how this building connects and integrates with Main Street, 7th Street, as well as the burgeoning museum and cultural arts district on West Main Street.

Come see the exhibit, come explore every business on West Main street, and come see the actual site before you continue spewing crap that simply makes you look ridiculous.

Anyways, if you want to talk intellectually about what the problem is with the ground floor, then explain.






Actually, that was the approach that I first took. Go back and read! BUT, all you Louisville forumers kept telling me how I was wrong and taking my criticism of the project personally and therefore YOU ALL began to discredit me...SO, I took the same tone. I don't know how to be more clear. I guess I need to draw pictures. BUT, to me, a mixed-use project of this scale in a city the size of Louisville should be directly built to the street right-of-way. (thats a sidewalk in a downtown in case you all didn't know). NOT, wedged next to some flood wall and "connected" to a nearby attraction underground. Have you ever heard of a "mental barrier?" Yes, a couple "legs" touch the ground. Great! Why isn't the entire base of this structure at street level? Why is there a driveway under this tower? You state for a hotel or the condos...ok. BUT, that driveway under the building creates the "void" I have been talking about and cause a disconnect of this project for the immediate street traffic. Further, the main focus or "selling-point" of this is a museum for the public...why isolate that from the street level restaurants and other nearby "attractions" and place it 20-stories in the sky only accessible by a poorly designed glorified escalator? Louisville isn't Paris, NYC, or Chicago. You all DON'T have the same level of pedestrian traffic or tourist activity. Therefore, those ideas may work in one of the world's permiere cities, but I highly doubt it would work anywhere in the region outside of Chicago.

You say that there will be people living in the tower too...I can see that. BUT, don't tell me that the residents of this project are enough to keep the museum or any other "public" part of this structure "busy." What happens when the "mental barrier" of the escalotor cause people to "skip" this downtown attraction? You are hoping that they see this thing and think "cool...let's go inside." But what about the inverse, something you all are failing to see. To me, why design something of this size in a downtown like Louisville's with potential for detractions??? That has been my point this whole time. It could be SO MUCH BETTER. Yet, you people all seem to think that nothing better could be done. It most certainly could. I say...take off your blinders and think about this some more.

I compare this project to one of Indy's first "mixed-use" structures, National City Center. This building was built in the 1970's and as many of you may know, houses The Hyatt Regency, National City Bank Office, "retail shops," and until this past month, Simon's offices. The building has three entrances and is in directly connceted to the Convention Center and Circle Centre via a skybridge and parking garage. HOWEVER, the building has a 1970's-era "plaza" between Washington Street and the entrance and you must go inside the building to get to any of the shops. Well, there aren't shops any longer, only a McDonalds and a pizza place. Everything else has sat empty...why you might ask? Because the building is not pedestrian friendly. Despite having a hotel, an indirect connection to Circle Centre and the Convention Center, and offcies for Simon and National City, it can't pull people off of the street to sustain the "shops" inside. Now that Simon hasd moved out, the "shops" are in serious trouble! Do you all see what I am getting at??? Probably not. The point is that this type of concept doesn't work unless you have HUGE numbers of people, something that neither Indy nor Louisville has.

I am done discussing this. I have made my points...and made them clear. If this project was thrown down at a Staff Meeting in the Indy Planning Office, it would be ripped to shreads. Would it still get an approval, probably, because higher powers would be at work. BUT, I am pretty sure that someone in the Louisville Planning Office has also had something to say about this buildings "lack" of integration. Skywalks, undergorund tunnels and "hope" don't make a project integrated. There is much more to it than just that.

Everything else has sat empty...why you might ask? Because the building is not pedestrian friendly. Despite having a hotel, an indirect connection to Circle Centre and the Convention Center, and offcies for Simon and National City, it can't pull people off of the street to sustain the "shops" inside. Now that Simon hasd moved out, the "shops" are in serious trouble! Do you all see what I am getting at??? Probably not. The point is that this type of concept doesn't work unless you have HUGE numbers of people, something that neither Indy nor Louisville has.


Another good example of this is the Grand Avenue Mall in Milwaukee.. (and most other downtown malls). It can't keep tenants despite renewel efforts of the new owners. And it is also connected to the convention center, several hotels, several office buildings. The building that houses the mall also has office and residential as part of the complex but the mall is still failing. It was only sucessful for the first few years when it was still "new and exciting".

In the past is was said that this was happening because Milwaukee's downtown couldn't support retail, but those arguments are failing because the very pedestrian friendly, walkable Historic Third Ward in downtown Milwaukee is booming with retail and is getting a lot of national attention for it's success.

wow...I must have made Jake mad...I am less one "friend" on my myspace page after my little reply. Hmmm....

Wow...there must be some serious sibling rivalry going on between Louisville and Indy.

Louisville: Stop being so sensitive. We all understand that it’s exciting to see new development in your city (especially at an impressive 60 stories) but don’t just jump and be happy because you’re getting something tall…demand something aesthetically challenging, yet pleasing to the eye. The current design is not attractive or appealing.
For example, take the proposed Fordham Spire (www.fordhamcospire.com) here in Chicago. It’s tall (124 stories), sleek and multi-purpose (hotel/business/condo). It’s unlike any other building that exists, yet it’s absolutely beautiful! The only reservation people have is that it will sit right on the lake and it will stand out to potential terrorists for another 911 style attack.

Indianapolis: Stop being soo mean! You look like a big brother bickering back and forth with his kid sister!
:bash:

Actually, that was the approach that I first took. Go back and read! BUT, all you Louisville forumers kept telling me how I was wrong and taking my criticism of the project personally and therefore YOU ALL began to discredit me...SO, I took the same tone. I don't know how to be more clear. I guess I need to draw pictures. BUT, to me, a mixed-use project of this scale in a city the size of Louisville should be directly built to the street right-of-way. (thats a sidewalk in a downtown in case you all didn't know). NOT, wedged next to some flood wall and "connected" to a nearby attraction underground. Have you ever heard of a "mental barrier?" Yes, a couple "legs" touch the ground. Great! Why isn't the entire base of this structure at street level? Why is there a driveway under this tower? You state for a hotel or the condos...ok. BUT, that driveway under the building creates the "void" I have been talking about and cause a disconnect of this project for the immediate street traffic. Further, the main focus or "selling-point" of this is a museum for the public...why isolate that from the street level restaurants and other nearby "attractions" and place it 20-stories in the sky only accessible by a poorly designed glorified escalator? Louisville isn't Paris, NYC, or Chicago. You all DON'T have the same level of pedestrian traffic or tourist activity. Therefore, those ideas may work in one of the world's permiere cities, but I highly doubt it would work anywhere in the region outside of Chicago.

You say that there will be people living in the tower too...I can see that. BUT, don't tell me that the residents of this project are enough to keep the museum or any other "public" part of this structure "busy." What happens when the "mental barrier" of the escalotor cause people to "skip" this downtown attraction? You are hoping that they see this thing and think "cool...let's go inside." But what about the inverse, something you all are failing to see. To me, why design something of this size in a downtown like Louisville's with potential for detractions??? That has been my point this whole time. It could be SO MUCH BETTER. Yet, you people all seem to think that nothing better could be done. It most certainly could. I say...take off your blinders and think about this some more.

I compare this project to one of Indy's first "mixed-use" structures, National City Center. This building was built in the 1970's and as many of you may know, houses The Hyatt Regency, National City Bank Office, "retail shops," and until this past month, Simon's offices. The building has three entrances and is in directly connceted to the Convention Center and Circle Centre via a skybridge and parking garage. HOWEVER, the building has a 1970's-era "plaza" between Washington Street and the entrance and you must go inside the building to get to any of the shops. Well, there aren't shops any longer, only a McDonalds and a pizza place. Everything else has sat empty...why you might ask? Because the building is not pedestrian friendly. Despite having a hotel, an indirect connection to Circle Centre and the Convention Center, and offcies for Simon and National City, it can't pull people off of the street to sustain the "shops" inside. Now that Simon hasd moved out, the "shops" are in serious trouble! Do you all see what I am getting at??? Probably not. The point is that this type of concept doesn't work unless you have HUGE numbers of people, something that neither Indy nor Louisville has.

I am done discussing this. I have made my points...and made them clear. If this project was thrown down at a Staff Meeting in the Indy Planning Office, it would be ripped to shreads. Would it still get an approval, probably, because higher powers would be at work. BUT, I am pretty sure that someone in the Louisville Planning Office has also had something to say about this buildings "lack" of integration. Skywalks, undergorund tunnels and "hope" don't make a project integrated. There is much more to it than just that.

So, which is it. Does MP suck because it won't draw people off the street to shop, or does it suck becuase the people using it won't go into downtown? You've switched it up so many times, I can't remember.

The fact is, the "acre in the sky" is there because the plot of land is too small to fit the developer's requirements. It is primarily a museum, which is a destination space. Few people stroll along the "street right-of-way" and say, "hey, modern art. I didn't know it was here. Let's take a peek for the next few hours." Of course there will be other components. A small bit of retail and services will be in the public space, but it isn't the main point. This isn't a mall trying to inject retail into the city. It's not an entertainment district either. It may have small shops and restaurants, but only to serve those coming to the Museum, working in the offices, or staying in the hotel. THIS IS NOT FUNCTIONING AS A NORMAL DEVELOPMENT. The primary purpose is art. The J.B. Speed Art Museum on UofL's campus. It is not near any hotel, shopping, etc. However, it is successful because it is a destination location.

However, your disconnect theory has one flaw. Say your are walking along W. Main and you see an ultra-modern building above. Your thoughts maybe, "I wonder what that's all about", but, according to you, have no idea how to get to it so you don't dwell on it. But then you come across a beautiful cast iron facade that promises modern art. So, because there is no mental block, you enter. Upon entering, you find that you can take a escalator ride to, at the very least, an observation point 22 stories in the air. What do you do?

I think the biggest disconnect here is your views of what the building is and the developers views of what the building is. This is not going to function as a normal building. It is unique. I can see why it doesn't fit in your paradigm, but that does not preclude it from fulfilling its roll. I think you should a.) be open and think outside the box a little, and b.) wait in see how it all goes down instead of spewing your doomsday prophecies. You may have your reservations, but your inability to see any potential is troubling and narrow-minded.

So, which is it. Does MP suck because it won't draw people off the street to shop, or does it suck becuase the people using it won't go into downtown? You've switched it up so many times, I can't remember.



Ummm...news flash...you can't have one without the other. Come on now, you are smarter than that!

Pedestrian connectivity works both ways (unless there is a black hole, I suppose).

I obvioulsy had to narrow my focus as fully explaining the problem was causing too many to get "confused."

Ummm...news flash...you can't have one without the other. Come on now, you are smarter than that!

Pedestrian connectivity works both ways (unless there is a black hole, I suppose).

I obvioulsy had to narrow my focus as fully explaining the problem was causing too many to get "confused."


Umm...once again, try thinking outside your textbooks.

If this were a mall, then yes, you can't have one without the other. But, since the brunt of the development is hotel, office, and condo, you have most your trips originating and terminating at the location. You claim that people would rather get in their cars and drive to St. Matthews, even though there are all these wonderful places within 5 minutes of walking, and even though the people there are there because they prefer urbanity, all because you don't feel it has any street connectivity. So, which is it. Does MP suck because it won't draw the "I have no other business there" pedestrian off the street, even though it is easy access for them from a busy street, OR does MP suck because it won't bleed out the "I love downtown which is why I'm here" person dwelling, be it temporary or perminently, and cause them to drive to inner ring suburbs? WHICH is it? What I gather from you is that it will be a great chasm of steel and glass that no one will enjoy because it doesn't fit your paradigm. OK.

Louisville: Stop being so sensitive. We all understand that it’s exciting to see new development in your city (especially at an impressive 60 stories) but don’t just jump and be happy because you’re getting something tall…demand something aesthetically challenging, yet pleasing to the eye. The current design is not attractive or appealing.
For example, take the proposed Fordham Spire (www.fordhamcospire.com) here in Chicago. It’s tall (124 stories), sleek and multi-purpose (hotel/business/condo). It’s unlike any other building that exists, yet it’s absolutely beautiful! The only reservation people have is that it will sit right on the lake and it will stand out to potential terrorists for another 911 style attack.



MP isn't pleasing to you. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be built. If a great novel can not be appreciated by all, that doesn't mean the author should not have written it.

Louisville isn't Paris, NYC, or Chicago. You all DON'T have the same level of pedestrian traffic or tourist activity.


what created the pedestrian traffic in paris? people go there to see the eiffel tower. i beleive People will come to louisville to see the museum plaza. the eiffel tower attracts 6 + million people per year....thats 6 million more than before it was built....now i want to hear all those people who called the eiffel tower's design 'ugly' complain now.....museum plaza is a much more radical design than the eiffel tower, and i think over the years people will see how much it will attract foot traffic to downtown louisville.......remember people also said the Sydney Opera House and the Eiffel Tower and [the Guggenheim] Bilbao were ugly when they were unveiled. what do they have to say now?

and not to mention that around the same time museum plaza is being completed in 2010, there will also be a new 22,000 seat arena about 6 blocks to the east ....and not to mention the completion of the Ali center plaza which is expected to bring in hundreds of thousands of visitors per year (and sits right next to mp if you haven't noticed)....so your claim that there isn't any foot traffic around that area will probably be null and void by 2010.....you seem to not realize that museum plaza isn't going to be complete tommorow....you're looking at four years...a lot can change in four years....just look at 4th street live.....if you had been at fourth street live(previously the 'galleria'), three years ago, and came back for the first time today, you'd think you were in a different city.

Ummm...news flash...you can't have one without the other. Come on now, you are smarter than that!

Pedestrian connectivity works both ways (unless there is a black hole, I suppose).

I obvioulsy had to narrow my focus as fully explaining the problem was causing too many to get "confused."



Thanks cwilson, now you are talking intelligent. Before you just seemed like a pompous jerk, and no one wants to read that! I think you made some valid points. It seems like alot of your problem has to do with the site itself. I too would LOVE if this was built on one of our large surface lots....perhaps the one on 7th and Market or even better, the one at 2nd and Muhammad Ali. Unfortunately, it is the only feasible site for this bc it is basically free for the developers to use since the city is essentially gifting it to them.

I really do not think we have enough street level renderings to make any great observations about this, but I must agree about the "mental" void it could create standing in a hotel roundabout looking up at the two "legs." You must also keep in mind the the west "leg" of the tower will be flush with the sidewalk on 7th street where there will be a farmer's market, coffee shop, and sundry store. As Daville noted, this is NOT going to be a mall or circle center deal. Any retail is going to be what I have already noted and a few gift shops.

I am up in the air about having a sky museum...it does seem a little 70ish. For example, Louisville had two revolving restuarants in the 80's on top of the Hyatt and Galt House. I believe the one at the Hyatt is closed and the one at the Galt House may be closing as well. In the meantime, Jeff Ruby's upscale steakhouse is open on the street at 4th and Main, and it is just doing killer business as it has become a dining and dancing late night place for the baby boomer set.

So the question becomes, is the novelty of having a sky museum and a funky contemporary design with two legs enough to draw people in? I think MOST definitely. Hell there was ANOTHER article in the Wall Street Journal the other day about Louisville's posh new 21C hotel and the upcoming Museum Plaza. Like it or not, there is national buzz about Louisville.

The question becomes would a mixed use project like this work better in the heart of downtown, closer to the heavy pedestrian traffic on 4th street?

At this point the answer may be obvious, but then again, perhaps you do not see the vision that the city has and is currently thriving on. We are encouraging development at either end of Main/Market and 4th street to give downtown the backbone it needs to expand to other streets. It is already happening, slowly but surely. In the past couple months, at least a half dozen businesses have opened downtown AWAY from the immediate 4th street Live and main street hot spots.

We have seen an upscale sushi lounge open, another one to open soon, a late night Chicago hot dog place, a new bar on 3rd street, 2 new urban grocers, a new upscale liquor store/deli, a new outlet of a local pizza chain, and more. All this in TWO MONTHS! You see, downtown is adding the amenties that downtown residents want and need, and we are really starting to fill in. So, I think making MUseum Plaza a solid, square base would be very boring given its LOCATION. I think your point would hold better if it was in the heart of downtown, which is just not an option.

Wow...there must be some serious sibling rivalry going on between Louisville and Indy.

Indianapolis: Stop being soo mean! You look like a big brother bickering back and forth with his kid sister!
:bash:


No not at all, but I can tell you that Indy never was and currently is not our "big brother." For the most part, no one here gives a damn about Indy. The same can be said when Indy residents think of Louisville.

Indy and Louisville are more like two golfers playing the same course. Each golfer plays against the course and doesn't worry about the other golfer. However, when another golfer scores better on a round, the first golfer may try to discredit how the other golfer shot so well under par. I think that is what is going on here. There is no rivalry, only Cwilson coming in using his Indy experiences as reference I suppose.

No not at all, but I can tell you that Indy never was and currently is not our "big brother." For the most part, no one here gives a damn about Indy. The same can be said when Indy residents think of Louisville.


Yeah, Indy is definitely not our big brother. More like a third cousin that we've met twice in our life.

No. We control and dominate Louisville. It wont be long before we annex them all! The Kentucky Derby would become the Indy Derby, and so on.

Louisville: the little brother of Indianapolis. I kinda like that. Thanks, EastMeetsMidwest!

There isn't anything wrong with being a little brother, of course. Indy is a much smaller brotha of Chicaago, and Chicago is a little brother of NYC. Right, Gych?

No not at all, but I can tell you that Indy never was and currently is not our "big brother." For the most part, no one here gives a damn about Indy. The same can be said when Indy residents think of Louisville.

I agree with that. Indianapolis could as well be Des Moines as far as Louisvillians are concerned. Louisvilles orientation is more to the south and to Cincinnati (the traditional rival city).


@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

It is really suprising to see this Museum Plaza discussion continue.


Say your are walking along W. Main and you see an ultra-modern building above. Your thoughts maybe, "I wonder what that's all about", but, according to you, have no idea how to get to it so you don't dwell on it. But then you come across a beautiful cast iron facade that promises modern art. So, because there is no mental block, you enter. Upon entering, you find that you can take a escalator ride to, at the very least, an observation point 22 stories in the air. What do you do?

Thats what is so intriguing about this project...the way it incoporates the Main Street streetscape and one of those long narrow Main Street loft buildings into the design....the old Main Street building will be the "Front Door" to MP as it leads to that big escalator.

I also like how there is sort of a shared space thing going on in that the MP plaza will be connected to the Ali Center, which will be connected to the Belvedere. So there will be this elevated set of plazas connected to each other.

^^
But I think that is what Cory sees as bad planning, because it brings people to that plaza and park area, instead of to the street.
However, I think that it won't be any differentthan how the Belvedere is treated now. It festival space, and a nice place to walk up to away from the street and traffic. The Belvedere certainly doesn't pull away from the pedestrian traffic in DT now, and if anything, it adds to the crowd because of the many festivals held there throughout the year.

I really hope Louisville comes through with this building, regardless of what has been discussed above.

If "Louisville" sin't "concerned" with Indy, then why is that EVERYTIME I read an article in the Courier-Journal about Louisville, the writer inevitably compares Louisville's lack of progress (ie. Arena), to its closest neighbors advances?? Indianapolis and Nashville are ALWAYS mentioned as places that Louisville lags behind. Any Louisville forumer that claims differently is delusional!

I remember an article that Gych posted sometime back where people from Louisville wrote comments to the paper and one person who disagreed with the building of an arena even stated something along the lines of "Louisville isn't Indianapolis, Nashville, or Cincinnati!"

Just my 2 cents.

still at it?? wow. get over it, this building was announced almost a year ago. if you don't like it, great, but don't ruin it for the people who do. Very rarely will you find members from louisville envading a thread about a building going up in Indianapolis.


...and gych is gone...get over him too....you're from indy, why do you read the CJ so much?

No not at all, but I can tell you that Indy never was and currently is not our "big brother." For the most part, no one here gives a damn about Indy. The same can be said when Indy residents think of Louisville.

Indy and Louisville are more like two golfers playing the same course. Each golfer plays against the course and doesn't worry about the other golfer. However, when another golfer scores better on a round, the first golfer may try to discredit how the other golfer shot so well under par. I think that is what is going on here. There is no rivalry, only Cwilson coming in using his Indy experiences as reference I suppose.

Wow...the golf analogy is genious. Thats some good stuff lol.

Very rarely will you find members from louisville envading a thread about a building going up in Indianapolis.


because there are no such threads. thats why you find people like cwilson always going into louisville threads.

If "Louisville" sin't "concerned" with Indy, then why is that EVERYTIME I read an article in the Courier-Journal about Louisville, the writer inevitably compares Louisville's lack of progress (ie. Arena), to its closest neighbors advances?? Indianapolis and Nashville are ALWAYS mentioned as places that Louisville lags behind. Any Louisville forumer that claims differently is delusional!

I remember an article that Gych posted sometime back where people from Louisville wrote comments to the paper and one person who disagreed with the building of an arena even stated something along the lines of "Louisville isn't Indianapolis, Nashville, or Cincinnati!"

Just my 2 cents.


Hmm, I read the CJ everyday and have never seen that. The only way Louisville is "behind" Indy is from an arena standpoint (which gets you pro sports), and perhaps that it also lacks something like the Lilly endowment. In many ways, Indy is "behind" Louisville whether it is in the arts, historic urban neighborhoods, architecture, or restaurants. Indy needs to be focused on itself, and perhaps being big brother to Fort Wayne, but people in Louisville really could give a damn about Indy.

But seriously, how did this become an Indy vs. Louisville thing? Cwilson, I know you love Indy, but calm down your act. It seems every thread I go into, whether it is Cincy or Charlotte or Louisville or whatever, you are making some reference to Indy when no one even mentioned it. I just recall reading something you wrote about the new tower to be built in Cincy, and you say something like, "too bad the office market is down in downtown Cincy." Then you go on to say that it is also "down" in Indy at 11% vacancy, when I know damn well you saw them post that Cincy is 17% vacant in the CBD. Its like you are always trying to make a comparison. It comes across as pompous--it does. Louisville is not Indy and thank God, no offense. I would have to move if it was.

But I think that is what Cory sees as bad planning, because it brings people to that plaza and park area, instead of to the street.

What will happen is that this will function the way a big department store functions in a traditional downtown. The building will attract people from Main Street, who will walk to it, and then through that building space fronting main, which will lead to the escalator/elevator and plaza.

The plaza then connects with the Ali Center and Belevedere.

In a sense this building will work to benefit the Ali Center, which is really isolated on top of its parking they way it is currently designed.

I can see how this would be "used"...people will park on or near Main, or in the parking garage that is proposed for the 7th-8th street block, and then walk to Main, walk through the converted Main Street building space up to MP, then take the elevator up to the Museum (probably for the view!), then back down and then walk through the plaza spaces to Ali Center, to the Belvedere to look at the river, and then back down to Main Street to their car.

So in a sense it could very well be a generator for some foot traffic downtown, just as a sort of local attraction that people will travel to to check-out.

For the people who use this building as residence, hotel, or office, they will probably be using their cars to travel as the place will be having an undertower parking garage, or maybe office workers coming and going for lunch will generate some foot traffic.

What will happen is that this will function the way a big department store functions in a traditional downtown.
Thats just the thing. The only public attraction this has is the Museum, a restaurant, and an observation deck of sorts. Most people can't give a rat's ass about contemporary art, and most people wouldn't be able to afford the restaurant. And nobody is going to come in, observe the view, and leave DT. It will be just another something to do in DT. Its not like there is going to be a mall or movie theatre that will keep people inside and off the street for hours on end.

Thats just the thing. The only public attraction this has is the Museum, a restaurant, and an observation deck of sorts. Most people can't give a rat's ass about contemporary art, and most people wouldn't be able to afford the restaurant. And nobody is going to come in, observe the view, and leave DT. It will be just another something to do in DT. Its not like there is going to be a mall or movie theatre that will keep people inside and off the street for hours on end.


Well.....it will also have a Farmer's Market, sundry shop, coffee shop, dry cleaners, and a couple other retailers. If anything, it will become the central gathering place for artistic minded downtown residents. As river road is expanded into Shippingport, I feel strongly a vibrant warehouse district will develop in 10 years along west main street around 15th all the way up to Portland Ave. I need to go down and take some pics of the Shippingport area and the very dense 4-5 story warehouses that are just ITCHING to become lofts.

^^
I was speaking on the Island plaza. All of the things you mentioned would be on the ground level, right?

I need to go down and take some pics of the Shippingport area and the very dense 4-5 story warehouses that are just ITCHING to become lofts.

Thats actually kind of a neat area.

Then you go on to say that it is also "down" in Indy at 11% vacancy, when I know damn well you saw them post that Cincy is 17% vacant in the CBD.

And on top of that, the vacancy number cwilson gave is a flat out lie. I was looking in the Indy thread and the vacancy rate has been over 15% for a while.

And on top of that, the vacancy number cwilson gave is a flat out lie. I was looking in the Indy thread and the vacancy rate has been over 15% for a while.

WRONG!!!! The rate has not been that high for a while. Go back and read the whole damn thread you freak and get off of my nuts!

You would have also saw me mention that the Simon move as well as the moving of several businesses from One Indiana Square is what caused the rise. BECAUSE, last quarter, Indy's rate was lower than it had been in years and there is an article in the Indy Dev thread about the drop specifically! The article also states that it would rise with the Simon move and One Indiana Sq. fiasco. So, your point would be what...other than you obviously dangle from my sack?

wow...i wonder how this turned into a a thread about Indianapolis.....

wow...i wonder how this turned into a a thread about Indianapolis.....


It isnt, ignore them. I have a friend who works in city development and he was saying they are looking at some very nice names for the hotel part of Museum Plaza. Whatever the case, expect something very upscale. Already the new 21C hotel is getting reviews as one of the nicest hotels in this entire region.

Has anyone noticed the sales center for RiverPark Place is already in a shell state and is moving quick?

For me, MP is something that will completely benefit Louisville. I wasn't completely used to the whole design of building but it has grown on me, and most other Louisvillians. I feel it reflects the ways of the city's people. I'm not all technical and complicated as some of you all are when it comes to this building. I don't just see the building. I look at everything including the downtown waterfront. I can see myself visiting MP and the Ali Center, then walking from the belvedere to the Warf to Waterfront Park and to what will be the Big 4 pedestrian bridge. Everyone just has to face it, the building is being built. Although it's nice to argue about whose city is better and bigger, if it isn't NYC, Chicago, or L.A., it's kind of moot. American cities need to build more buildings that reflect the spirit of their areas. Sure some might think of it as ugly, but only will the people of the particular city (Louisville in this case) will understand the importance of the design. MP is well received by most in Louisville and if it will help the city advance, more power to it. Although I do wonder how it'll fare in the event of a moderate earthquake? :|

Earthquakes in Louisville? Yeah, we've got them in Milwaukee too but they're certainly never high enough on the richter (sp?) scale to merit any legitimate concern.

With regard to the building design, I never though it was absolutely terrible. From a planning standpoint, it's pretty bad. Whatever though, you're right. It'll be built and it's just something that's got to be accepted.

Louisville is in a higher seismic risk area due to being closer to that New Madrid fault area, and being bult on alluvium.

The urban design/lanscaping firm for the plaza has been chosen.

Base in Rotterdam, West 8 (http://www.west8.nl/)

Any additional discussion can be directed to the official Museum Plaza (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=316119) thread.