Enjoy. :)

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/4193/hzpanoramazo2.jpg

huge pic . how did you make it??

My father in law in fact does not like all these skyscrapers at all. He thought they destroy the whole scenery of the beloved city.

i got a good camera,i tried to make panorama like your one,but i could'nt

^^

Exactly, it's so sad to see the destruction of classical cultural landscapes all over China. It's not that I don't like modern architecture, but most Chinese urban planers grew up during the Cultural Revolution who didn't receive much (cultural) education and therefore lack the cultural foundation when they were exposed to the outside world. Many of them copy supposedly modern and superior architecture style from the "West" without understanding and having any knowledge of "Western" history, socio-econimical development and philosophy.

^^

Exactly, it's so sad to see the destruction of classical cultural landscapes all over China. It's not that I don't like modern architecture, but most Chinese urban planers grew up during the Cultural Revolution who didn't receive much (cultural) education and therefore lack the cultural foundation when they were exposed to the outside world. Many of them copy supposedly modern and superior architecture style from the "West" without understanding and having any knowledge of "Western" history, socio-econimical development and philosophy.


I disagree. HangZhou, and Beijing, Xian etc, they are not museums, and the civilians are not displays, they deserve a better living,
as long as the elites of the culture are preserved.

I lived in hangzhou for 4 years in the 1980s, it was a really crapy city, people teasing " Beautiful west lake, crapy hangzhou city. the city boomed in the past 20 years, a modern landscape emerged. it doesn't hurt as long as the west like scenery region is not destructed. you can still see the natural west lake pano from the city side.

beijing is the same, so many westerns complain that beijing is not beijing anymore, because it is more morden then most most western cities. but the
elites are well-protected, no need to keep the massive HuTongs, which don't even have shower, toilet, falling apart anyday. in eijing only those low-income old beijingness live there because they are not able to move out finacially, the famous DaShiLan area is a well-known slum in beijing.

Generally I agree with you.

YelloPerilo,
I have argued about this issue in the Fuzhou thread.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=221212&page=3
I post here once again.
The reason why the so-called national style was formed in architecture of different countries was
1) There was no design innovation, everybody just copying the style of his neighbors. There were no professional architecture design firms in the past.
2) The availability of construction materials and technology was very limited. This can be observed in the skyscrapers style differences between New York City (many of them were built in 1930s) and Shanghai.

If you really want to ask what Chinese modern architecture style is, I will answer you this way: the current Chinese architecture style is try to use the best available construction design, technology, and materials in the world while taking the consideration of economic factors. To say in another way: the style is no-particular-style or free style.

Style is formed naturally. There is no need to enforce a style. The current "style" of Shanghai is the showcase of world modern architecture in 21st century.

I don't think the modern architecture style belongs to any particular country. If the West has better design, why can't Chinese take it? A nation with keen consciousness of learning from the merit of other nations will succeed. The opposite will fail. Didn't history in the last two hundreads of years give Chinese enough lessons? The fact that you live in a western country and know western society well does not mean that you know architecture or city planning better.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

YelloPerilo,
I have argued about this issue in thread of Fuzhou thread.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=221212&page=3
I post here once again.
The reason why the so-called national style was formed in architecture of different countries was
1) There was no design innovation, everybody just copying the style of his neighbors. There were no professional architecture design firms in the past.
2) The availability of construction materials and technology was very limited. This can be observed in the sky scrapers style differences between New York City (many of them were built in 1930s) and Shanghai.

If you really want to ask what Chinese modern architecture style is, I will answer you this way: the current Chinese architecture style is try to use the best available construction design, technology, and materials in the world while taking the consideration of economic factors. To say in another way: the style is no-particular-style or free style.

Style is formed naturally. There is no need to enforce a style. The current "style" of Shanghai is the showcase of world modern architecture in 21st century.

I don't think the modern architecture style belongs to any particular country. If the West has better design, why can't Chinese take it? A nation with keen consciousness of learning from the merit of other nations will succeed. The opposite will fail. Didn't history in the last two hundreads of years give Chinese enough lessons?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well said, I hate to see the word "west", I would prefer the word "modern"
mordern architecture originated from the west, but it is universal, it belongs to the whole human being.
we can't see a city's style untill it is fully developed, just like we can tell a baby's future untill he or she grows yp.

I disagree. HangZhou, and Beijing, Xian etc, they are not museums, and the civilians are not displays, they deserve a better living,
as long as the elites of the culture are preserved.

I lived in hangzhou for 4 years in the 1980s, it was a really crapy city, people teasing " Beautiful west lake, crapy hangzhou city. the city boomed in the past 20 years, a modern landscape emerged. it doesn't hurt as long as the west like scenery region is not destructed. you can still see the natural west lake pano from the city side.

beijing is the same, so many westerns complain that beijing is not beijing anymore, because it is more morden then most most western cities. but the
elites are well-protected, no need to keep the massive HuTongs, which don't even have shower, toilet, falling apart anyday. in eijing only those low-income old beijingness live there because they are not able to move out finacially, the famous DaShiLan area is a well-known slum in beijing.

I agree with you that neither Beijing, Shanghai nor any Chinese city are museums (with a few exceptions) are museums, but that does not mean China has to modernise at all cost disregarding her history and cultural heritage.

I currently live in an old house (built 1892) that did not have bathroom, central heating and was in a really bad shape in the 1980s. Many of these old houses were destroyed during the wirtschaftswunder till the 1980s. Most people prefered to live in modern highrises with all the modern comforts, only poor people and young students lived in the old houses sharing the flat.

But in the late 1980s people started to modernise these old houses with modern bathrooms and central heatings. Many former students earn enough money to move out, but many stayed because they got used to these old houses and have thee money to modernise them without destroying the style of the houses. The old people died leaving a lot of empty houses/ appartments for a new generation who wanted to live in a house with a "history", be they so humble as most of them were former housings for factory workers.

Most of my friends nowaday would prefere to live in a modernised old house as we think that old houses have more soul and many people regrett that during the period of economic growth, so many "beautifull" old houses were destroyed. I also see this one day happening in China, when we start to regrett what we have done during the "economic miracle".

staff
haha thank you !your picture is so beautiful!
but today's hangzhou is not only this~

Was this from that "lightning" tower?

I LOVE IT~~

it saddens me...

Great panorama. I have this photo stitching software that can do this type of super long panorama, as long as you take a series of overlapping shots.

The skyline and color are chaos.Too bad West Lake is surrouded with so many ugly buildings.They should protect the classical scenery and build highrise at least 5km from the lake and mountains.

Beautiful shot !

I disagree. HangZhou, and Beijing, Xian etc, they are not museums, and the civilians are not displays, they deserve a better living,
as long as the elites of the culture are preserved.

I lived in hangzhou for 4 years in the 1980s, it was a really crapy city, people teasing " Beautiful west lake, crapy hangzhou city. the city boomed in the past 20 years, a modern landscape emerged. it doesn't hurt as long as the west like scenery region is not destructed. you can still see the natural west lake pano from the city side.

beijing is the same, so many westerns complain that beijing is not beijing anymore, because it is more morden then most most western cities. but the
elites are well-protected, no need to keep the massive HuTongs, which don't even have shower, toilet, falling apart anyday. in eijing only those low-income old beijingness live there because they are not able to move out finacially, the famous DaShiLan area is a well-known slum in beijing.

Only real estate companies and some officers think there is no need to keep the massive HuTongs.Yes,conditions in Hutongs are poor,but after the poor people living in them are forced to move far away from the city center,which is convenient for them,they will live a harder life.Poor people in hutong usually do some small business near their hutong to feed themselves,and have a nice neighbourhood,however,they will lose them all after moving out.

BTW,most new buildings in China are neither morden nor traditional,but of no style at all.

The skyline and color are chaos.Too bad West Lake is surrouded with so many ugly buildings.They should protect the classical scenery and build highrise at least 5km from the lake and mountains.

Yes there is such official restriction, otherwise you would have already seen a Shanghai/Shenzhen stile skyline. Before 1976, to build a 7-floor building close to West Lake, you had to get the permission from Premier Zhou himself.

Only real estate companies and some officers think there is no need to keep the massive HuTongs.Yes,conditions in Hutongs are poor,but after the poor people living in them are forced to move far away from the city center,which is convenient for them,they will live a harder life.Poor people in hutong usually do some small business near their hutong to feed themselves,and have a nice neighbourhood,however,they will lose them all after moving out.


your description of Hutong makes it look like a ghetto for poor people, I say that's one more reason to get rid of Hutong and change these poor people's lives for the better.

BTW,most new buildings in China are neither morden nor traditional,but of no style at all.

you can say that to every single country on this planet, what's so special about china that ticks you off?

your description of Hutong makes it look like a ghetto for poor people, I say that's one more reason to get rid of Hutong and change these poor people's lives for the better.

How about gradual gentrification of the Hutong areas. Modernisation of the old structures and at the same time keeping cultural heritage without letting them becoming urbane slums. It would probably cost more than to tear down the old houses and build characterless blocks next to the Gugong :cry: ... culture cannot be measured with money, once they are gone, they are gone.

^^ who's going to pay for that?

^^ who's going to pay for that?

Don't be too materialist! ;)

It is the duty of every Chinese to protect and develop the Chinese culture. All Chinese citizen pay taxes to the government and in the name of the people the government has the obligation to protect the common cultural heritage of all Chinese. There are also numerous private foundations, like a friend of mine, who spend a lot of money to protect and restore classical architectures, but many local government officials are not really helpfull.

^^ the government has to be materialistic when it comes to running the country. sure, it can probably renovate the entire hutong area with a large amount of money but the only people who would benefit would be the original residents, sure there is the enhanced tourism value but i highly doubt the additional tourism income would justify the cost, and it would be unfair for other taxpayers who would never benefit from the renovation of hutong. hutong is a thing of the past and it does not serve the interest of the present day china. please just let it go.

if you know people who have the money to pay for the rennovations of hutong, then by all means ask them to buy up these areas and make them nice.

^^ the government has to be materialistic when it comes to running the country. sure, it can probably renovate the entire hutong area with a large amount of money but the only people who would benefit would be the original residents, sure there is the enhanced tourism value but i highly doubt the additional tourism income would justify the cost, and it would be unfair for other taxpayers who would never benefit from the renovation of hutong. hutong is a thing of the past and it does not serve the interest of the present day china. please just let it go.

if you know people who have the money to pay for the rennovations of hutong, then by all means ask them to buy up these areas and make them nice.

Look, the Chinese gouvernment is quite wealthy, and secondly nobody is seriously asking the gouvernment to spent all the money to restore all the hutongs in Beijing. All we demand is, that the gouvernement should implement longterm strategies and reasonable laws to protect these cultural heritages and to modernise the infrastructure (e.g. sewage, powerlines), which is a gouvernemental duty anyway.

Secondly, this kind of renovation takes a long time, at least 20 to 30 years. That my experience in Germany, but China would probably need less time. But contrary to Germany, China's property right is still in its infancy and that gives a lot of headaches to people who are willing to buy the hutongs and renovate them.

Right now there are no definite laws to protect the hutongs and many local officials are hindering private funded protection efforts.

^^ i'll use an party line to respond: yes the chinese government is quite wealthy, but there is not enough for the 1.3 billion people. i think the whole point of getting rid of the hutong is that better infrastructure can be built so that a much larger number of people can get housing. the same space for a typical hutong household can be turned into a multi-story apartment which can house many more people. when preservation of old cultural stuff clashes with modern necessities, i'd always side with the modern necessities.

hutong belongs to a musem, not in a modern city like beijing.

your description of Hutong makes it look like a ghetto for poor people, I say that's one more reason to get rid of Hutong and change these poor people's lives for the better.

"change these poor people's lives for the better?"
Who pay for them?
The answers is,they have to use all their money to buy a commie block out of the fifth ring road.No choice at all.

^^ i'll use an party line to respond: yes the chinese government is quite wealthy, but there is not enough for the 1.3 billion people. i think the whole point of getting rid of the hutong is that better infrastructure can be built so that a much larger number of people can get housing. the same space for a typical hutong household can be turned into a multi-story apartment which can house many more people. when preservation of old cultural stuff clashes with modern necessities, i'd always side with the modern necessities.

hutong belongs to a musem, not in a modern city like beijing.

That's why I said that the government should only do the job it has to do anyway, e.g. modernising the infrastucture and passing reasonable laws (e.g. building restriction, property right). The rest can be done from private money and there certainly are a lot of people who would like to buy a Siheyuan and restore it to its former glory with all the modern facilities.

I am not talking about all hutongs in Beijing, but only the ones within the second ring. Modernity does not have to clash with cultural heritage as we can see in many other countries. Take Paris, Florence and many other cittes in Europe for example. Many of them are quite big, even in comparison to Beijing and they, too, have to accomodate a large amount of people. they have managed to modernise without sacrificing to much of their cultural heritage and we should learn from their expertise and past mistakes.

It is quite a shame that the GMD surrendered Beijing to the GCD without one gun shot in order to protect Beijing but greed, corruption, incompetence and false grandeur has destroyed so much of our culture as if the CR has not done enough harm to us and as if the GMD were not greedy and corrupt enough.

your description of Hutong makes it look like a ghetto for poor people, I say that's one more reason to get rid of Hutong and change these poor people's lives for the better.
It is not a ghetto.People in it have more reasons to live in it than to move out.But when officers declare that it need to be torn down,it is.It has to be a "ghetto" to make it reasonable to move out people in it and let real estate developers build more expensive one to make money. :scouserd:

It is not a ghetto.People in it have more reasons to live in it than to move out.But when officers declare that it need to be torn down,it is.It has to be a "ghetto" to make it reasonable to move out people in it and let real estate developers build more expensive one to make money. :scouserd:


first off, i only said that your description of hutong made it sound like a ghetto.

second, we are talking about whether hutong deserves preservation, you are talking about whether there is corruption involved in the demolition. these two are two totally separate issues. i'm not going to argue with you about the corruption issue because it is totally irrelevant to the preservation issue.

[BTW,most new buildings in China are neither morden nor traditional,but of no style at all.[/QUOTE]



I live in New York city currently,which is considered the "Kindom of Skyscrapers", I've been in Shanghai, Beijing and many other cities,
I can tell you from my heart, Shanghai and Beijing's architectures are
definitely world-calss!

if you think Beijing's style is the red-wall green -roof
temple look, sorry, go to the Forbidden City, it will cost you whole day to explore. Beijing is a 15 mega people city, we have no land to build the flat temple building to fit them. the National library building, was covered by a chinese pavilion roof in order to be " traditional", (built in 1980s), now already became a silly icon of beijing.
bejing's buildings are strickly under government's height restrain in order to protect beijing 's flat skyline, they are not tall but very elegant. Shahghai's buildings are so bold and futuristic, far beyond "modern"

I'd like to know what city do you live in and whatt cities have you visited?

Newjing,
They don't have to visit New York City. All they need to do is to take a look at the pictures of European cities and some American cities in SCC forum. European cities look like antique. I have visited New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Dallas, Tokyo, London, and Vienna.

People used to call Shanghai as "Paris of East". I say that Paris is the Shanghai of Europe today.

you can say that to every single country on this planet, what's so special about china that ticks you off?
What I mean is most new buildings in China lack not only esthetics but also convenience and new tech.In most of China's 660 cities and thousands of towns,new buildings are always dressed in white tiles and eco-unfriendly materials.Water faucets are new but leaking.Sun light is not fully used.Heat is easy to get out in winter and easy to get in in summer.No facilities for handicapped people...Not because money at all,but the way they think.They just want to build them as quikly as they could and after 10 or 20 years tear down them to build new ones.

Newjing,
They don't have to visit New York City. All they need to do is to take a look at European cities and some American cities in SCC forum. European cities look like antique. I have visited New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Dallas, Tokyo, London, and Vienna.

People used to say that Shanghai was the Paris of East. I say that Paris is the Shanghai of Europe today.

I have lived in the US, in France and most of my life in Germany and I have been to China at least 50 times (staying between 1 month and 1 year).

People are proud of this antique feeling, because it is exactly this feeling that gives the city its soul and uniqueness. This antique feeling gives them a sense that they all have a common cultural root and a common future. Look at the Louvre with the modern pyramides.

Parisien would never address themself as the Shanghai of the West, neither should Chinese address themself as (European city) of the East. this is ridiculous and insulting.

Shanghai is a great city, but beside the Shanghai Bowuguan Shanghai still does not boast the cultural variaty of Paris, London, Berlin or New York because of political restriction and also because of the level of socio-economical development.

double post

[BTW,most new buildings in China are neither morden nor traditional,but of no style at all.



I live in New York city currently,which is considered the "Kindom of Skyscrapers", I've been in Shanghai, Beijing and many other cities,
I can tell you from my heart, Shanghai and Beijing's architectures are
definitely world-calss!

if you think Beijing's style is the red-wall green -roof
temple look, sorry, go to the Forbidden City, it will cost you whole day to explore. Beijing is a 15 mega people city, we have no land to build the flat temple building to fit them. the National library building, was covered by a chinese pavilion roof in order to be " traditional", (built in 1980s), now already became a silly icon of beijing.
bejing's buildings are strickly under government's height restrain in order to protect beijing 's flat skyline, they are not tall but very elegant. Shahghai's buildings are so bold and futuristic, far beyond "modern"

I'd like to know what city do you live in and whatt cities have you visited?[/QUOTE]
1.Shanghai+Beijing=China?
2.Morden=tall?
My home is a ordinary Chinese city with 3 million ppl.My college is in Shanghai.

first off, i only said that your description of hutong made it sound like a ghetto.

second, we are talking about whether hutong deserves preservation, you are talking about whether there is corruption involved in the demolition. these two are two totally separate issues. i'm not going to argue with you about the corruption issue because it is totally irrelevant to the preservation issue.


3.The government has already declared that Hutong should be protected so there is no need to talk about whether they should.
4.I am talking about why Hutong protection is an intricate thing,not as easy as many of you foreigners think.

What I mean is most new buildings in China lack not only esthetics but also convenience and new tech.In most of China's 660 cities and thousands of towns,new buildings are always dressed in white tiles and eco-unfriendly materials.Water faucets are new but leaking.Sun light is not fully used.Heat is easy to get out in winter and easy to get in in summer.No facilities for handicapped people...Not because money at all,but the way they think.They just want to build them as quikly as they could and after 10 or 20 years tear down them to build new ones.


sure, we all want to be superheros and marry supermodels, but reality is ugly and we don't have infinite resources, the only thing we can do is make the most of what we have and most times we don't even have time to decide what's best, so get used to it.

What I mean is most new buildings in China lack not only esthetics but also convenience and new tech.In most of China's 660 cities and thousands of towns,new buildings are always dressed in white tiles and eco-unfriendly materials.Water faucets are new but leaking.Sun light is not fully used.Heat is easy to get out in winter and easy to get in in summer.No facilities for handicapped people...Not because money at all,but the way they think.They just want to build them as quikly as they could and after 10 or 20 years tear down them to build new ones.

This is the ugly thruth in many cases. Those houses with toilet tiles turn yellowish within a short period of time and after two years the look like a toilet turned inside out. :puke:

Talking about econ friendly housing, we should create a new thread, because that's a mega big issue!!!

3.The government has already declared that Hutong should be protected so there is no need to talk about whether they should.


I thought you were complaining about the demolition of Hutongs?


4.I am talking about why Hutong protection is an intricate thing,not as easy as many of you foreigners think.

What foreigner are you talking about? What's the intricate about preserving Hutong?

I do not understand why shitty poor slums like Hutongs need to be preserved in order to preserve the Chinese culture/identity. Thats like associating abject poverty with traditional China. Is that what you want? Look at Tokyo for example. It is the most modern place in the world and is very recognizably Japanese and has very strong traditional presence even in the glitziest places like Ginza. IMO the Japanese developed a modern architectural style thats uniquely Japanese, ie: enormously thick gray and dark blue skyscrapers like those in Shinjuku that cannot be found anywhere else in the world. If the Japanese can do it, why cant the Chinese?

I do not understand why shitty poor slums like Hutongs need to be preserved in order to preserve the Chinese culture/identity. Thats like associating abject poverty with traditional China. Is that what you want? Look at Tokyo for example. It is the most modern place in the world and is very recognizably Japanese and has very strong traditional presence even in the glitziest places like Ginza. IMO the Japanese developed a modern architectural style thats uniquely Japanese, ie: enormously thick gray and dark blue skyscrapers like those in Shinjuku that cannot be found anywhere else in the world.

That's quite a heap of ignorance you are throwing there, xiaodi. Have you ever been to Tokyo? The "enormously thick gray and dark blue skyscrapers like those in Shinjuku" is just a small part of Tokyo. Have you been to the more traditional neigbourhoods of Tokyo?

The hutongs look so pathetic not because they have been built so, not because the style is crappy but because of decades of negligence and poverty. Have you seen some of the modernised siheyuans in Bejing? I would live in one of them any day!

If the Japanese can do it, why cant the Chinese?

This is the funniest part. You mean the substandard "new" :laugh: buildings one can find in so many places, even in Shanghai and Beijing, that look like an uncleaned toilet turned inside out ... just after two years? :puke:

Oh, I feel the after-shocks of the Cultural Revolution!

I thought you were complaining about the demolition of Hutongs?



What foreigner are you talking about? What's the intricate about preserving Hutong?
I was complaining about the demolition of hutong without concerning about its owner.Altogether two sad things.
China dosen't lack decent laws.What China lacks is decent citizens who comply with laws.Yes,the forumers have offered many suggestions,but city planners and their brains are surely brighter.They know what should be done and what shouldn't,but it's always hard to realise them.
Many old buildings are destroyed while many new ones appear.No one can stop this because China is booming and ppl need better life.The problem is the new ones mostly don't deserve to stand permanently on the earth. A waste of money and resouces...What is more,the winner in old town renewing is always businessman,not as was supposed to be.
I think they should preserve hutong while equip ithem with morden facilities.If no one can stop the demolition,i'd rather they build downright morden architectures which deserve to stand on the earth forever and become another important history scenery of the city in the future.

sure, we all want to be superheros and marry supermodels, but reality is ugly and we don't have infinite resources, the only thing we can do is make the most of what we have and most times we don't even have time to decide what's best, so get used to it.

We are also too poor to waste! :(

"The hutongs look so pathetic not because they have been built so, not because the style is crappy but because of decades of negligence and poverty."

I totally agree with you this time YelloPerilo.

I think they should preserve hutong while equip ithem with morden facilities.If no one can stop the demolition,i'd rather they build downright morden architectures which deserve to stand on the earth forever and become another important history scenery of the city in the future.


Greenlay,

To preserve the HuTongs is not as easy as we chat here online.
the HutTongs were designed for carriages, it can hardly fit a small car.
the houses are wooden structure (quiet different from europe), very difficult to maintain. no matter because of decades of negligence or poverty, the reality is that HuTongs are not suitable for living, they are not comparable with the old buildings in some european cities, like Paris, and it is not economic to remodeling dut to the poor condition and massiveness.( the whole old city, up to the 2nd ring).

by the way, the government has purposely kept some Si he Yuan as histocir scense, they will be protected as well as the forbidden city.

You might ignored one point that Hangzhou is a megacity with a population of 6,000,000 in the metro and 2,000,000 in the major city.How can you accommodate those citizens by just building the ancient-style houses? Why do you have right to prevent them from using the modern facilities such as air-conditioning and toilet?
So please face the fact,that Hangzhou is not an ancient town like Zhouzhuang or Wuzhen,but one of the three major cities in China's fastest developing area.

Besides,if you have been to Hangzhou before,espacilly in recent years,I think you would find that it's a beautiful city mixed with traditonal and modern part perfectly.So don't just keep your eyes on the skyline.We are living in the city,rather than living above or out of the city.

You might ignored one point that Hangzhou is a megacity with a population of 6,000,000 in the metro and 2,000,000 in the major city.How can you accommodate those citizens by just building the ancient-style houses? Why do you have right to prevent them from using the modern facilities such as air-conditioning and toilet?
So please face the fact,that Hangzhou is not an ancient town like Zhouzhuang or Wuzhen,but one of the three major cities in China's fastest developing area.

Besides,if you have been to Hangzhou before,espacilly in recent years,I think you would find that it's a beautiful city mixed with traditonal and modern part perfectly.So don't just keep your eyes on the skyline.We are living in the city,rather than living above or out of the city.
No one said Hangzhou should build traditional buildings.They should make height and color harmonious.However,most buildings finished in1990s lack that.
I prefer this kind of buildings in height controled area,and build skyscrapers inCBDs.
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/8066/1154104785uc2.jpg

To preserve the HuTongs is not as easy as we chat here online.
the HutTongs were designed for carriages, it can hardly fit a small car.

Why is it necessary to transform every part of Beijing into a car friendly city? Doesn't Beijing and many other big cities in China already have enough air pollutions and traffic congestions? Do we need more cars in the centre of the city? If yes, why? Have we failed to implement smart and effective public transportations like trams and undergrounds?

the houses are wooden structure (quiet different from europe), very difficult to maintain.
Scandinavia and Japan has tons of old wooden buildings and they have lots of experiences how to maintain them. Mabe we should ask them for help.

no matter because of decades of negligence or poverty, the reality is that HuTongs are not suitable for living, they are not comparable with the old buildings in some european cities, like Paris, and it is not economic to remodeling dut to the poor condition and massiveness.( the whole old city, up to the 2nd ring).
this is a very poor excuse more suitable to a real estate developer whose interest is to make money.

by the way, the government has purposely kept some Si he Yuan as histocir scense, they will be protected as well as the forbidden city.
You have a poor understanding of cultural preservation. Preservation does not necesserily mean to turn an old building into a museum but to preserve a whole set of cultural scenery and structures where real people live in them.

I live in an old house and it's not a museum, I live in something that breathes history and culture.

You might ignored one point that Hangzhou is a megacity with a population of 6,000,000 in the metro and 2,000,000 in the major city.
Paris is bigger.

How can you accommodate those citizens by just building the ancient-style houses?
It's not about building ancient-style houses, it's about preservation of ancient houses.

Why do you have right to prevent them from using the modern facilities such as air-conditioning and toilet?
Nobody want to deny anyone to have moder comfort. My house from 1892 did not have a bathroom, but it was modernised in the 80s and my comfort is far superior to many new houses and has more style as well. Come to Europe and broaden your horizon.

So please face the fact,that Hangzhou is not an ancient town like Zhouzhuang or Wuzhen,but one of the three major cities in China's fastest developing area.
You don't know much about Chinese history, do yo?

Besides,if you have been to Hangzhou before,espacilly in recent years,I think you would find that it's a beautiful city mixed with traditonal and modern part perfectly.So don't just keep your eyes on the skyline.We are living in the city,rather than living above or out of the city.

Sorry, the new buildings are mostly boring and are insulting to the eyes. A pink highrise with cheap baroque decorations next to a glass & concrete building that stands next to an ugly white-yellowish toilet tile building from the 1980s does not look like a successfull architectural mix to me.

Video for Hangzhou
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/default.cdnx/id/12688417/displaymode/1157

Hangzhou
http://files.photojerk.com/daoxuwahaha/01FFBF7A.jpg

Video for Hangzhou
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/default.cdnx/id/12688417/displaymode/1157
----------------------
hi 他们在节目中说什么 我看不懂！

Hey, Yello Perilo,

This is the first time I see a thread where I totally agree with every single word u said. So I wonder: Is it really u writing here??? haha...

btw: I hate those white tiles, too... In Wuhan, I even found recently built residental highrises for the upper-class featuring nice architecure but again f***d up with those god-damn toilet tiles... How can they STILL do such a crap??

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/3079/dsc034856du.jpg

P.S.: Hehe, is this still a thread about a hangzhou pano-pic?
Sorry, staff. Nice pic btw!

You might ignored one point that Hangzhou is a megacity with a population of 6,000,000 in the metro and 2,000,000 in the major city....

Strange... I walked from one end of your "megacity" to the other within less than two hours. It actually seemed that Xiaoshan in the south is already bigger (by area) than the genuine city of Hangzhou ... Now I wonder: Is Xiaoshan officially a part of Hangzhou or a city on its' own? Anyway, it´s still not a megacity in my eyes, especially not for chinese scales. Look at Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Wuhan and the likes to see what a megacity is.

Beside of that: I agree with u that Hangzhou looks much nicer from within the city than the skyline might let one think. It´s very clean and comfortable and there are also many beautiful modern buildings which are not visible just by looking at the skyline...

Strange... I walked from one end of your "megacity" to the other within less than two hours. It actually seemed that Xiaoshan in the south is already bigger (by area) than the genuine city of Hangzhou ...

Hangzhou is a megacity, downtown city is about 1.5 - 2 million people.
I know Wuhan is much bigger--the Biggest Village in the world, and you talk just like a farmer from the village.

I had not the intention to insult anyone from Hangzhou and already edited my post as I realized that it might appear like a provocation. Sorry for that. Perhaps u have a look at it again. I really like Hangzhou and had a great time there, it´s just that I never had the feeling to be in a big city (which is by no means a bad thing).

btw: When have u been in Wuhan for the last time to call it a big village? And no, I am not a native Wuhanese, I am German.

Hangzhou is a megacity, downtown city is about 1.5 - 2 million people.
I know Wuhan is much bigger--the Biggest Village in the world, and you talk just like a farmer from the village.

Please don't get personal. LordChaos80 is not even a Chinese.

I had not the intention to insult anyone from Hangzhou and already edited my post as I realized that it might appear like a provocation. Sorry for that. Perhaps u have a look at it again. I really like Hangzhou and had a great time there, it´s just that I never had the feeling to be in a big city (which is by no means a bad thing).

btw: When have u been in Wuhan for the last time to call it a big village? And no, I am not a native Wuhanese, I am German.




Sorry if i over reacted. I m not from Hangzhou either. i thought you were insulting hangzhou. my apologies.

I lived there for 4 years in the 1980s. I planned to visit it in May but i had to cancel the trip to stay in a hotel in shanghai instead because of some issues.
such a shame. i live all the way in new york, not easy to plan a trip again.

I never been in Wuhan, but Wuhan has a reputation for less-civilized civillians.
hope not true.
Wuhan is the only city is crowned "big" after shanghai in china, i will visit the giant someday.

@newjing:

no problem. :)
A pity u didn´t have a chance to see Hangzhou again after such a long time. I guess u would have been amazed by the development there. Speaking about Wuhan: I think that prejudice about the Wuhaneses' lack of civility has a lot to do with their local dialect which sounds quite rough or even aggressive in other Chineses' ears. Actually, many women in Wuhan are in deed a little hot-tempered, but it´s not that u can't get used to it, haha... Beside of that I think the Wuhaneses' manners are on a comparable level to those of people in Beijing, Guangzhou or whereever. At least, they are quite honest and reliable.

@newjing:

no problem. :)
A pity u didn´t have a chance to see Hangzhou again after such a long time. I guess u would have been amazed by the development there. Speaking about Wuhan: I think that prejudice about the Wuhaneses' lack of civility has a lot to do with their local dialect which sounds quite rough or even aggressive in other Chineses' ears. Actually, many women in Wuhan are in deed a little hot-tempered, but it´s not that u can't get used to it, haha... Beside of that I think the Wuhaneses' manners are on a comparable level to those of people in Beijing, Guangzhou or whereever. At least, they are quite honest and reliable.

Very interesting analysis about Wuhanese. first time heard about dialect factor, makes sense to me. China is too big, as diversified as europe. no suprise different cities hold prejudice against each other. just like the europeans, hehe. as the economy booms, people's civilzation level is improving too. i saw the big change in Beijing, Shanghai after 10 years,
I'm sure Wuhan has experienced the same.

Sorry, staff. Nice pic btw!
Hehe, cheers mate.
Unfortunately I don't have too many Wuhan pics - the weather really sucked when I went there. It's a lovely city nonetheless though. :)

Hey, Yello Perilo,

This is the first time I see a thread where I totally agree with every single word u said. So I wonder: Is it really u writing here??? haha...



Does it surprise you that I criticised my fellow tongbao and Zhongguo?

I am sure you do see the difference between my critics and the nonsense most moronic China-bashers regularly spew in this forum.

West Lake is always alluring, I hope it would not be polluted any way...

There are lots of fish in West Lake now, I wish you could taste them soon. And Lou Wai Lou is always the best restaurant alongside the lake.