Why or why not?

I don't, for no real rhyme or reason...I just don't consider it part of New England (This is BILLS Country!)

why would anyone consider upstate NY to be New England?? When I think of upstate NY, I think of Albany and the Adirondack Mountains...and no they are not New England at all.

Here are my reasons:
1.) It is in New York State
2.) no New England accent
3.) virtually zero New England influence (more NYC influence)
4.) western NY is culturally more midwestern and nyc
5.) Yankees, Bills, Sabres fans (not Boston teams)

Not at all. New England's borders are cut and dry. New York has always been a Mid-Atlantic state to me, along with Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware, and Maryland. So Upstate New York is Mid-Atlantic, even if it has a little bit of a New England or Midwestern feel. I believe in drawing regional boundaries using political borders only.

No, upstate is too broad a definition. Although there are definitely pockets interspersed throughout which could pass as being "New England".

Generally, I'd break it down into something like this:
http://users.adelphia.net/~sargeantcm/ssc/13.jpg
The area to the east of the line, to me, is the most consistently "New England-ish". Roughly Malone-Utica-Oneonta-Westchester. Even NYC itself has some New England traits.

Areas like Lake George, Tupper Lake, Lake Placid, the Taconics, Upper Catskills, and even Albany could just as well be New England. But western NY, the St. Lawrence Valley, and the Finger Lakes region just don't really have a New England counterpart (though NH's Lakes Region is vaguely similar to the Finger Lakes, though much smaller).

^ I got this idea because there was a New England travel book that included Upstate New York (especially the Adirondack Park area) as part of the region.

Well they are just jealous and want to claim upstate as part of their tiny ass region. (lol jk). No, upstate NY is not really New Engalndish. There is however a strong New England influence in many of it's towns, most of which were in fact originally settled by New Englanders. I believe I read somwhere that up unitl the mid 1800's, 1 in 3 people living in New York state was originally from Vermont. Pittsford NY is named after Pittsford CT and DEFINITELY resembles a New England town. But the whole region in general is just that, a region of it's own.

Not one bit...at least not like Connecticut.

Some areas, like the more rural towns, Syracuse, or Albany and the Hudson Valley can be close to being considered part of New England, if slightly. But Western New York is nothing like anywhere in New England...

There might be more examples, Connecticut itself is not considered part of New England by some people.

There might be more examples, Connecticut itself is not considered part of New England by some people.

I don't concider Connecticut to be part of New England. This might piss you off rotten, but I concider CT to be the sixth borough of New York.

Upstate NY isn't New England at all. It might be like some places in New Hampshire in terms of the mountains and things like that, but the cities there are different than New England cities, in my opinion.

That's harsh, man. Fairfield County is part of the tri-state area, but at least the rest of the state is New England.

As for the "sixth borough", we all know that's Miami, hahaha.

I don't concider Connecticut to be part of New England. This might piss you off rotten, but I concider CT to be the sixth borough of New York.

Upstate NY isn't New England at all. It might be like some places in New Hampshire in terms of the mountains and things like that, but the cities there are different than New England cities, in my opinion.

Well, Connecticut is historically part of New England, there's no discussion, but these days NYC's influence has long covered those New England roots.
If we use the sports test I think more people support NY teams, though maybe we could trace an imaginary line.

Nope neither is part of the other, yet there are some overlapping characteristics.

Officially, upstate NY excludes the Mid-Hudson Valley (up thru Newburgh & Poughkeepsie) which is included within downstate & the NYC CMSA.

The Western end of Massachusetts is the most stagnant part of that generally prosperous state, while the eastern end of upstate NY is the most robust part of generally stagnant upstate NY. So Albany's Capital District & Springfield's Piooner Valley aren't all that different.

Amsterdam, Troy & some of the other old milltowns in the eastern part of upstate compare with Holyoke MA, Central Falls RI & many of the older milltowns of New England. Rochester has a few things in common with Hartford and Syracuse with Worcester. Utica seems a bit like Waterbury or Danbury.

But contrast booming Boston & declining Buffalo & there is no comparison between the largest & most influencial metros of New England & Upstate NY.

I don't concider Connecticut to be part of New England. This might piss you off rotten, but I concider CT to be the sixth borough of New York.


Why, because we have so much New Yorkers? (including myself, I did live in the city for almost 4 years) and too much Yankees fans? :nuts:

Don't worry, the Red Sox still have the edge around here...for now... :jk:

Connecticut as a state, is New England, for sure.

...but the region is too well-defined wrongly. It neglects the diversity of the states, either you are thought as Boston or a suburb of it, or part of the small town meeting town stereotype that people constantly think of New England. Going to one of Connecticut's cities, this stereotype is thrown out the window...

Connecticut is a transition zone, with Fairfield/New Haven/Litchfield counties more gravitated to New York, and Eastern Connecticut more influenced by Boston and the rest of New England. Hartford County is the true battleground...with strong influences from both. I'm a little biased, but Hartford is more economically connected to New York than Boston, but the general point is, the more east and north...is "traditional" New England.


And that is my rant for the day... :scouserd:

Now, lets stay back into the real topic: Is Upstate NY like New England?

But contrast booming Boston & declining Buffalo & there is no comparison between the largest & most influencial metros of New England & Upstate NY.
Ahh, you just gotta stick that in there any way you can, don't you?

Incidentally, there should be no comparison anyways. They're at the polar opposite ends of the respective regions being compared.

Anyone who has been to towns like Albany know that is has the same general feel of New England, which is just about 25 miles to the East

Officially, upstate NY excludes the Mid-Hudson Valley (up thru Newburgh & Poughkeepsie) which is included within downstate & the NYC CMSA.


actually you are wrong. Upstate NY is officially considered anything north of the Bronx on the mainland of NYS. This includes Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, etc... for our own purposes on this forum and in conversation as WNYers, we consider anything that is technically part of the NYC metro as "downstate", it is not accurate however. "Downstate" is officially NYC and Long Island only.

Amsterdam, Troy & some of the other old milltowns in the eastern part of upstate compare with Holyoke MA, Central Falls RI & many of the older milltowns of New England. Rochester has a few things in common with Hartford and Syracuse with Worcester. Utica seems a bit like Waterbury or Danbury.


Really?

I could see Syracuse as being similar to Hartford or (even better example) Springfield, but except with some similarities in demographics, what does Hartford have in common with Rochester?

Really?

I could see Syracuse as being similar to Hartford or (even better example) Springfield, but except with some similarities in demographics, what does Hartford have in common with Rochester?
He says it is, therefore it is. Close it up and lock the thread, question answered.

actually you are wrong. Upstate NY is officially considered anything north of the Bronx on the mainland of NYS. This includes Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, etc..

Nope I'm correct. Sure there are many in NYC who personally might still consider Haverstraw or Newburgh as part of upstate. However, I go by the official census definitions as approved by the US Office of Management & Budget (OMB). Metro North (Westchester, Putnam, Rockland, etc) has been included as part of the NY CMSA for many decades. Who ever considered Yonkers part of upstate? And the Mid-Hudson Valley has been added in the past couple of decades to the NY CMSA as downstate has grown north.

Really?

I could see Syracuse as being similar to Hartford or (even better example) Springfield, but except with some similarities in demographics, what does Hartford have in common with Rochester?

Well, those are just my perspectives. Although Rochester has almost twice the city population as Hartford, your city has a slight metro population edge over Rochester. Both are metros are divided by a river, Hartford the Connecticut, Rochester the Genesse. Both are located in the midst of traditionally rich agricultural areas.

Although Hartford is also a state capital, both cities stand out as traditionally affluent white-collar corporate centers as compared to their more historically blue-collar metro (Buffalo, Bridgeport, etc.) neighbors.

Both traditionally had strong downtowns, went with 1960s freeways & urban renewal (Constitution Plaza in Hartford, Midtown Plaza in Rochester), have suffered downtown erosion in recent decades. Although your downtown has started coming back & Rochester has visions of a Rensaisance Plaza.

Both metro economies have struggled with corporate consolidation & downsizing. Hartford with insurance & finance industry, Rochester with Kodak, Zerox, etc. Hartford seems to be about a decade ahead of Rochester in turning the economic corner.

Although Hartford has denser, New England-style neighborhood architecture with more brick three-deckers, & Rochester has more of the two-story frame houses, both cities have similar overall densities.

And as you've noted both Rochester & Hartford cities have much in common with their demographics, traditionally Irish, Italian, & Jewish, now with large African American, Puerto Rican, Jamaican, & other Latino & Caribbean, & some Asian, populations. Similar politics & relatively poor city vs. affluent suburb divides.

Syracuse seems more in line with Worcester or even like you say, Springfield. I just think of Syracuse as more like Worcester because it isn't on a major river & sprawls over more hills. But again, just my thoughts.

Hartford and Rochester aren't too similar demographicaly. Hartford has an almost majority hispanic population, with over 40% of the population being hispanic; with a 38% black population, and only 17% white population. Rochester has a 12% hispanic, 38% black (same as Hartford), and 48% white population. If you switched the hispanic and white populations of either city around; they would have almost identical demographics.

upstate YES (east of Utica) western NO...west of Utica

from syracuse eastward, upstate is new englandish but everything west of that is closer to the great lakes region.

western NY = region within uspstate NY

Hartford and Rochester aren't too similar demographicaly.

Sure, no two cities will ever be identical, but these two seem to share much in common. Hartford was the first New England city where minorities became the majority before 1980, Rochester the first upstate city to make that transition in the 1990s. Just taking a guess, I'd imagine that the public school enrollment in Rochester city is 85% black & Hispanic and in Hartford well over 90%. Not exactly the kind of schools that lame duck Erie County exec Joel Giambra would want his kids attending! LOL!

True, Hartford has almost twice as many Latinos as Rochester. But both metros (rather than say Boston & Buffalo, although Boston has much larger overall Latino pop) have the highest concentrations of Puerto Ricans in their regions, New England/Upstate New York. Plus small but growing numbers of Dominicans & other Latino immigrants. Park Street in Hartford, North Clinton Avenue in Rochester, both significant Latino arteries.

As you say, both cities have identical percentages of African Americans. Hartford's North End & Rochester's Northeast & Southwest quadrants are similar aside from the variations in housing stock. While Hartford has several times as many Jamaicans as compared Rochester, both have the largest Jamaican population in their regions. Both cities though could use more new immigrants.

African Americans and Latinos in both cities are very active in city politics. Hartford was the first sizeable upstate NY city to elect a black mayor, Bill Johnson circa 1993, Hartford was the first sizeable New England city to elect a black mayor circa 1980, & the first New England city to elect a Latino mayor, Eddie Perez circa 2001. In both cities, moreso in Hartford, minorities are moving to the inner suburbs.

Add in all the other factors. Even the papers, the Hartford Courant and the Rochester Democrat Chronicle are both IMO quite similar, both with high-quality reporting. And while the accents may be different, I really think that Rochester & Hartford have at least as much in common, maybe more, as Buffalo & Rochester. In many respects, not all, as was a light manufacturing & corporate hub, Rochester seems more like the last city in the Northeast, while Buffalo, as a one-time Great Lakes port, railroad hub, steel & auto center, seems more like the first city in the Midwest. That's just IMO though.

Hartford was really in serious distress in the early 1990s when Travelers Insurance & the other financial firms were consolidating & the real estate market went bust. But as you can see in the posts, its been coming back, ending its long population slide according to the most recent estimates. So Hartford, which has been trailing Providence in the comeback trail by about a decade, may be one of the cities Rochester can channel on the way back to a post-Kodak economy. Hear that UR has taken over as biggest employer in Rochester.

Nope I'm correct. Sure there are many in NYC who personally might still consider Haverstraw or Newburgh as part of upstate. However, I go by the official census definitions as approved by the US Office of Management & Budget (OMB). Metro North (Westchester, Putnam, Rockland, etc) has been included as part of the NY CMSA for many decades. Who ever considered Yonkers part of upstate? And the Mid-Hudson Valley has been added in the past couple of decades to the NY CMSA as downstate has grown north.

There is no such thing by census as "upstate" and "downstate", there are only states, counties, places, block groups, etc... Definitions of Upstate and Downstate are up to whoever defines it for their own purposes. And I'm saying that the mainland NYS minus the Bronx is considered "upstate." Now you can choose to define the two by economic or cultural reasons that suit your need, but ask anyone that lives in the NYC metro area and they'll say that 'upstate' starts when you cross the line north outta the Bronx, this (again) includes Westchester and Yonkers and Albany.

Westchester people consider themselves Upstate, I've lived with them for years, I know first hand. Upstate and downstate are relative to NYC (obviously). Really LI is the only downstate and mainland NY is upstate while NYC really isn't either, but still referred to as downstate.

I personally consider anything east of Roch and north of NYC as upstate. I exclude WNY cuz whenever someone uses the term "upstate" they are never referring to Buff-Roch but instead only Westchester through Plattsburg.

why would anyone consider upstate NY to be New England?? When I think of upstate NY, I think of Albany and the Adirondack Mountains...and no they are not New England at all.

Here are my reasons:
1.) It is in New York State
2.) no New England accent
3.) virtually zero New England influence (more NYC influence)
4.) western NY is culturally more midwestern and nyc
5.) Yankees, Bills, Sabres fans (not Boston teams)

Not everyone upstates a Bills or Sabres fan. Look at the NFL map below.

a sidenote: its annoying to see when outsiders instantly think upstates owned by Buffalo. Not pertaining to what bjfan82 said, but it reminded me. There are places upstate that are still closer to NYC than Buffalo.

Anyone who has been to towns like Albany know that is has the same general feel of New England, which is just about 25 miles to the East

True. Anyone driving 90 east from Utica through the Mohawk Valley past Albany into Massachusetts, it all the same vibe.

as far as sports go, its still New York, youll find many many MANY followers of NY teams still throughout upstate, its not up for grabs by any means. this is commoncensus.org, voted results from over 20,000 ppl in the respective areas

NFL: http://www.commoncensus.org/maps/nfl_1280.gif

MLB: http://www.commoncensus.org/maps/mlb_1280.gif

NBA: http://www.commoncensus.org/maps/nba_1280.gif

NHL: http://www.commoncensus.org/maps/nhl_1280.gif

Dont forget, upstate is just a relative term to NYC and downstate. If you take upstate by itself, theres a split between western and eastern right at Syracuse. western being more midwestern generally, and eastern being more new english, but those terms are taken lightly of course.

Nope I'm correct. Sure there are many in NYC who personally might still consider Haverstraw or Newburgh as part of upstate. However, I go by the official census definitions as approved by the US Office of Management & Budget (OMB). Metro North (Westchester, Putnam, Rockland, etc) has been included as part of the NY CMSA for many decades. Who ever considered Yonkers part of upstate? And the Mid-Hudson Valley has been added in the past couple of decades to the NY CMSA as downstate has grown north.

Ill have to agree with this guy.

I exclude WNY cuz whenever someone uses the term "upstate" they are never referring to Buff-Roch but instead only Westchester through Plattsburg.

agreeable. People generalize upstate as one region, but technically/arguably, its two in itself.

I voted yes, because this map is pretty dead on. one thing id argue to include would be Rome, a bit west of Utica.

http://users.adelphia.net/~sargeantcm/ssc/13.jpg

also another point id like to make is the market. there are many stores from new england that go as far as Utica, ie: hannafords. You can notice these differences spending time within the region. Utica has price chopper, im not sure but i think it ends there, and the company is hq'd from Albany. There are no Tim Hortons or Krispy Kremes and things of that such found in Utica. Thats what I know, not sure about anywhere else, but you cant ignore the similarities. I know that price chopper, and hannafords are not found in WNY. I just heard of wegmans and chase-pitkins last year our in brockport.

Utica's main supermarkets:

Price Chopper
Wal-Mart
Hannafords

we used to have a fuckin Grand Union back in the day, I remember, its based out of NJ.

As far as restaurant chains, im not sure of what the greater influence is but there is a '99' restaurant in Utica that just opened up a couple years ago, an 95% of its restaurants are based out of Mass. Just looking at the menu you can see the locations.

Im finding more and more places with links to NE than the Midwest. Stewarts Shops can also be found around the Utica area. Its based out of Saratoga Springs, into Vermont, and goes as far west as Oswego.

99 restaurant and pub.

http://the99.know-where.com/the99//region/map/NY.gif

Well, Connecticut is historically part of New England, there's no discussion, but these days NYC's influence has long covered those New England roots.
If we use the sports test I think more people support NY teams, though maybe we could trace an imaginary line.

That wasn't what I was saying. I understand Connecticut is historically part of New England, I wasn't debating that. I'm from New England, I understand what is and isn't part of it.

I was just stating that Connecticut doesn't feel like New England, at least Hartford on west doesn't.

It really has nothing to do with the sports teams either. Connecticut seems to have just as many New Yorkers as Connecticans (?) at least to me. I'm not saying it's not part of New England, I just think it has more of a New York flavor.

Connecticut as a state, is New England, for sure.
...but the region is too well-defined wrongly. It neglects the diversity of the states, either you are thought as Boston or a suburb of it, or part of the small town meeting town stereotype that people constantly think of New England. Going to one of Connecticut's cities, this stereotype is thrown out the window.


I agree and disagree. I think the region is defined wrongly. I think Maine, Vermont and New Hampshire all have more in common with each other than if you decided to cross one of those states with another New England state.

I think that Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut (whether you think it's NE or not, it technically is) have more in common with each other than any of those other three New England states.

Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine have some decent cities within them, but I wouldn't necessarily say any of the cities are "urban" compared to Hartford, Providence, or Boston. Hell I think Worcester and Springfield and New Britain have a more urban feel than the cities in those states--again it's my opinion.

Mass, RI and Connecticut have more of an overall package feel to them. They are very dense and urban in areas and then natural and scenic in others. They have that "New England feel" to certain areas if you will. I don't really concider any parts of Maine, Vermont or NH to be urban or dense.

I think that New York as a whole has more in common with the second group (Mass, RI, CT) because it has big cities and areas that are more "New England" which most people define as small town, colonial type areas. Upstate NY (to me anyways) isn't just some place rampant with cows and fields of nothing. There are a lot of great, urban cities there like Albany, Syracuse, Buffalo and Rochester. I just think the whole region "New England" has really changed drastically since the term was coined, and it's probably time to redefine/rezone the region.

we used to have a fuckin Grand Union back in the day, I remember, its based out of NJ.


Haha, all those in the NYC area became Edwards and then Shop n Stops, I remember them as well.

A good sign that you live in NYC is when you know the Food Emporium jingle by heart. And you can recognize a Key Food from a mile away because it looks like a prison that was recently bombed.

I think that New York as a whole has more in common with the second group (Mass, RI, CT) because it has big cities and areas that are more "New England" which most people define as small town, colonial type areas.

Even so, many parts of upstate are notoriously libertarian, so that's something it has in common with VT.

In my opinion, no region in the United States is as defined as New England. You could debate about the beginnings and endings of the Midatlantic, the Midwest, the South, etc, etc...but New England IS New England. It is six states: ME, NH, VT, MA, RI and CT. Period.
Do parts of eastern upstate NY have a New Englandish "feel"? Absolutely. But parts of northern Maine can feel more like New Brunswick than the rest of New England. Beyond that, however, here's the 2006 Red Sox radio network.

http://www.redsoxconnection.com/audio.html

The message is quite simple. If you live outside the Six State Region, learn to DX or get a computer! :)

also another point id like to make is the market. there are many stores from new england that go as far as Utica, ie: hannafords. You can notice these differences spending time within the region. Utica has price chopper, im not sure but i think it ends there, and the company is hq'd from Albany. There are no Tim Hortons or Krispy Kremes and things of that such found in Utica. Thats what I know, not sure about anywhere else, but you cant ignore the similarities. I know that price chopper, and hannafords are not found in WNY. I just heard of wegmans and chase-pitkins last year our in brockport.

Utica's main supermarkets:

Price Chopper
Wal-Mart
Hannafords

we used to have a fuckin Grand Union back in the day, I remember, its based out of NJ.

As far as restaurant chains, im not sure of what the greater influence is but there is a '99' restaurant in Utica that just opened up a couple years ago, an 95% of its restaurants are based out of Mass. Just looking at the menu you can see the locations.

Im finding more and more places with links to NE than the Midwest. Stewarts Shops can also be found around the Utica area. Its based out of Saratoga Springs, into Vermont, and goes as far west as Oswego.
First off, IMO, Hannaford sucks. OK, enough negativity.

As for Price Chopper, I know they're in Syracuse as well, and I've actually seen their trucks in and around Buffalo on occasion, though the closest store I know of is in Syracuse as mentioned. Grand Union was bought by Tops a few years ago (who stretch as far as Oswego I believe), but I don't know if they've since sold them.

Isn't there a Krispy Kreme in Albany? I know there used to be a few that just opened in Mass/NH, but recently they all closed, much like one of ours. I don't know if it's so much poor sales, than just oversaturating the market of grocery/convenience stores. Anyways I wouldn't say they're any more WNY than they are New England - they're new to both areas.

99 Restaurants are good, I wouldn't mind having one out here; even though there are 6 million other places around here that serve what they do. But Stewart's - that's something I want! I love their egg nog!!!! I usually buy like 10 of them at each store I pass on the way to NH (Brunswick (Troy), Hoosick, & Bennington) everytime I pass through and just leave them in the trunk so they stay cold.

As for Utica chains, we have 2 Zebbs'.

Zebbs is just an upstate chain, no different than Delmonico's Steakhouse.

Well, technically they're based out of New Hartford. Then I think 1 in each Rochester and Syracuse, and then 2 in Buffalo (Northtown & Southtown).

Yorkville, not NH.

Delmonico's is based outta NH, with restaurants in Albany, Utica, Syracuse, and Rochester.

Yorkville is still Utica! :)

Not disagreeing, but then why does their website say NH?

There is no such thing by census as "upstate" and "downstate", there are only states, counties, places, block groups, etc... Definitions of Upstate and Downstate are up to whoever defines it for their own purposes. And I'm saying that the mainland NYS minus the Bronx is considered "upstate." Now you can choose to define the two by economic or cultural reasons that suit your need, but ask anyone that lives in the NYC metro area and they'll say that 'upstate' starts when you cross the line north outta the Bronx, this (again) includes Westchester and Yonkers and Albany.

Westchester people consider themselves Upstate, I've lived with them for years, I know first hand. Upstate and downstate are relative to NYC (obviously). Really LI is the only downstate and mainland NY is upstate while NYC really isn't either, but still referred to as downstate.

I personally consider anything east of Roch and north of NYC as upstate. I exclude WNY cuz whenever someone uses the term "upstate" they are never referring to Buff-Roch but instead only Westchester through Plattsburg.

No doubt about it, everybody & has within their own mindsets & cultural maps, their own personal terminologies for regions (whether of states, cities, etc.) & where they their boundaries begin & end.

And that's exactly why I utilize official census, not personal, definitions. Not my own, but OMB's. Otherwise there's no clear & consistent basis for comparison. The NY State portion of NYC CMSA now extends from Long Island up thru the Mid-Hudson Valley & its all part of downstate.

Census definitions evolve to follow population & employment. A couple decades ago, the Mid-Hudson was not included within the downstate CMSA. But now it is, with suburbanization & the extension of the commuting range to NYC.

As NYC keeps booming & growing north, maybe in the not-too-distant future, perhaps there's a chance that even Albany might be absorbed by downstate. There are some who don’t really consider Capital District part of upstate, but at least for now it is.

Most consider Syracuse & (usually) Utica to be in Central NY, and Buffalo & (usually) Rochester to be Western NY. But along with the Southern Tier & the Northern Tier, those are all sub-sections of upstate NY. For most people who have any sense of geography (& sadly, too many Americans don’t) when they refer to upstate NY, they are ALWAYS including Buffalo & Rochester and NEVER including Yonkers.

The major NY state media have also updated their definitions of downstate & upstate to keep up with these realities. From Long Island to NYC to Albany, to Buffalo, they also generally recognize that downstate now includes not only Westchester, Putnam & Rockland, but all the Mid-Hudson counties up thru Orange & Dutchess.

So I also abide by the media's definition which also concurs with OMB’s definition of what constitutes the downstate CMSA. Likewise, when the media refer to subjects like the decline of upstate NY, they are obviously talking about places like Buffalo & Syracuse, not Rockland or Westchester!

But I’d love to see any post 1980 newspaper article that defined Yonkers as part of upstate NY!

Isn't there a Krispy Kreme in Albany? I know there used to be a few that just opened in Mass/NH, but recently they all closed, much like one of ours. I don't know if it's so much poor sales, than just oversaturating the market of grocery/convenience stores. Anyways I wouldn't say they're any more WNY than they are New England - they're new to both areas.


Krispy Kreme was a boom-and-bust chain in these parts.

Back in 2003, when the first chain opened in Newington, a suburb of Hartford, there were major lines on the street because of all the hype from the chain being from the South...

But then, the low-carb craze came, and the chain stopped being popular, and they were also selling their donuts in supermarkets, which stopped the need for some, the store closed last year...

Bad news for Krispy Kreme, but great news for Dunkin Donuts! (which has the monopoly here)

Yorkville is still Utica! :)

Not disagreeing, but then why does their website say NH?

zebb's IS in new harftord; corner of seneca tpk/ middle settlement rd. i was there every week with my buddy scott back in the day. their bbq chicken sandwich rocks.

Krispy Kreme was a boom-and-bust chain in these parts.

Back in 2003, when the first chain opened in Newington, a suburb of Hartford, there were major lines on the street because of all the hype from the chain being from the South...

But then, the low-carb craze came, and the chain stopped being popular, and they were also selling their donuts in supermarkets, which stopped the need for some, the store closed last year...

Bad news for Krispy Kreme, but great news for Dunkin Donuts! (which has the monopoly here)

Again, speaking form "krispy kreme country; trust me when I say' they are OVERRATED. Dunkin donuts is way better. They only thing better about krispy kreme is their signature glazed donut; other than that; not too impressive.

Again, speaking form "krispy kreme country; trust me when I say' they are OVERRATED. Dunkin donuts is way better. They only thing better about krispy kreme is their signature glazed donut; other than that; not too impressive.

Here in Dunkin' Donuts country, I hate DD's. They don't make any of their stuff in the actual stores. It's all made in some central bakeries and then shipped out to individual stores at like 2 or 3 in the morning.

At least at Krispy Kreme you know the donuts are pretty fresh, usually right off the line.

The only thing I get at Dunkin' Donuts is the Hot Chocolate in the fall/winter. Only reason is because it's open 24 hours and when it's 1 AM and I'm out freezing my ass off, I pop in and grab a Hot Chocolate. I don't really eat donuts, but I'd rather have a KK donut than one from Dunkins'. I don't drink coffee, so I can't comment on that.

Here in Dunkin' Donuts country, I hate DD's. They don't make any of their stuff in the actual stores. It's all made in some central bakeries and then shipped out to individual stores at like 2 or 3 in the morning.

At least at Krispy Kreme you know the donuts are pretty fresh, usually right off the line.

The only thing I get at Dunkin' Donuts is the Hot Chocolate in the fall/winter. Only reason is because it's open 24 hours and when it's 1 AM and I'm out freezing my ass off, I pop in and grab a Hot Chocolate. I don't really eat donuts, but I'd rather have a KK donut than one from Dunkins'. I don't drink coffee, so I can't comment on that.

thats odd...they make the donuts at Dunkin Donuts here...and they are the BEST.

I know because at the Batavia DD...there is a BIG window so you can watch them make the stuff...very cool. :)

Boston is definitely oversaturated with Dunkin, but I have to say I prefer it a lot over Krispy Kreme. KK is too much, it's like eating a cannoli or something, it may taste good, but my stomach feels heavy afterwards. I think the reason it was such a big deal up here was not because it was better, but just new. Some people around here freak out over Coldstone because it's another relative newcomer to the region, but I don't like it any better than Haagan Dazs or Ben & Jerry's, regional fixtures, so I feel no need to travel farther just to go to Coldstone instead.

There was one KK on Long Island, people would go from far and wide to have it, but now I hear it's closed. Suppose DD just has a more consistent, if quieter, following.

Krispy Kreme was a boom-and-bust chain in these parts.

Back in 2003, when the first chain opened in Newington, a suburb of Hartford, there were major lines on the street because of all the hype from the chain being from the South...

But then, the low-carb craze came, and the chain stopped being popular, and they were also selling their donuts in supermarkets, which stopped the need for some, the store closed last year...

Bad news for Krispy Kreme, but great news for Dunkin Donuts! (which has the monopoly here)
Sounds almost exactly what happened both in Buffalo and in NH (Nashua) when the first ones opened. Buffalo's original has since closed to sales, but they still bake them I heard. They blamed most of the actual outlet's "failure" on the fact that Krispy Kreme donuts can now be had at just about every local grocery and convenience store, therefore why bother going to the actual store when the corner store has it? Seems to make some sense to me anyways.

Does anybody know if the Erie Blvd location in Syracuse is doing OK? I stop there fairly often when I'm out that way, I've probably been to that one more than any other!

Here in Dunkin' Donuts country, I hate DD's. They don't make any of their stuff in the actual stores. It's all made in some central bakeries and then shipped out to individual stores at like 2 or 3 in the morning.

At least at Krispy Kreme you know the donuts are pretty fresh, usually right off the line.

The only thing I get at Dunkin' Donuts is the Hot Chocolate in the fall/winter. Only reason is because it's open 24 hours and when it's 1 AM and I'm out freezing my ass off, I pop in and grab a Hot Chocolate. I don't really eat donuts, but I'd rather have a KK donut than one from Dunkins'. I don't drink coffee, so I can't comment on that.
I agree 100%. Their breakfast sandwiches are good as well, I thought. Though it's pretty hard to go wrong with one of those.

I agree 100%. Their breakfast sandwiches are good as well, I thought. Though it's pretty hard to go wrong with one of those.

Ah yeah, I forgot about those. They are good, I'm a night owl and sometimes it's easier to walk over to Dunkin's and grab one of these than go to some other places. They're fairly cheap and filling, I totally forgot to mention the breakfast sandwhiches.

Krispy Kreme was huge around here when it first opened, people were obsessed with it. Then I think people just got sick of Donuts. It wasn't such a big thing to have donuts from Krispy Kreme anymore. I remember working in an office at the time where once a week someone brought in KK donuts. Now? Those stores (I think their were like 3-5 stores opened around here) are all closed. You can get KK in some areas at gas station convienient stores or supermarkets. I actually saw two KK locations inside Moghegan Sun casino, which surprised me.

I think DD's just really has something for everyone. Like I said before, I'm not a donut person If I eat 6 a year, that's a lot. Yet I still go to Dunkin's for Hot Chocolate and those breakfast sandwhiches once in awhile, I never stepped foot in a KK while they were here. That seems to be the difference in success, the options.

in new england (esp. mass and RI), there are more DD's than there are people. their strawberry banana smoothies are the best . too bad almost none of them around here.

in new england (esp. mass and RI), there are more DD's than there are people. their strawberry banana smoothies are the best . too bad almost none of them around here.
In Concord (pop. ~40,000), I counted 14 a few years ago, which includes gas stations, Shaw's, etc. "Only" 4 or 5 of those are real stores. But that's still one heck of a ratio - probably higher than Buffalo's ratio of pizza joints! lol Wouldn't be totally surprised if that number is up to 15 or 16 now, and it's possible I may have missed some. And their only real competition was a HoneyDew out in Loudon.

Ah yeah, I forgot about those. They are good, I'm a night owl and sometimes it's easier to walk over to Dunkin's and grab one of these than go to some other places. They're fairly cheap and filling, I totally forgot to mention the breakfast sandwhiches.
For the last 1 1/2 of my 4 years in Concord, my apartment was literally on the other side of a parking lot from a DD. Ironically, I probably went there the least when I lved there! Another place I lived in was a few blocks away, that was the one I probably went to most frequently. I only lived in that one 3 months or so (the place was a complete dump so I moved elsewhere).

on the topic of donuts,
any of the buffalonians here remember how good tim hortons was when they weren't owned by wendy's?
is dickie's donuts still around?

on the topic of donuts,
any of the buffalonians here remember how good tim hortons was when they weren't owned by wendy's?
is dickie's donuts still around?
Funny how a discussion on Upstate NY vs. New England devolves into talk about donuts lol.

Here's a dumb question - when were they bought by Wendy's? I suppose I'd had them, but it was long enough (many donuts ago as well) to remember if they were any better.

As for Dickies, I dunno.

There are 49 Dunkin Donuts around a ten mile radius of Hartford... :shocked:

Now that's oversaturated...but I love their Iced Coffee!

my bad, i started the donut shit.

utica is technically central new york, but just barely. most maps put utica its in own region ie: the mohawk valley. you go to ilion/herkimer/frankfort and i dont think its considered central, youre about the same distance from the capital region than to syracuse and vice versa.

Speaking of Dunkin Donuts, they have at least 25 to 30 actual stores in the city if Providence alone.

^ yeah, providence/attlebro/boston make up the DD axis of apple fritters.

every time I se the "DD" abbreviation for Dunkin Donuts on here I find myself with my mind in the gutter.

Speaking of Dunkin Donuts, they have at least 25 to 30 actual stores in the city if Providence alone.


In California & on the West Coast about 80% of the donut shops are now run by Cambodians. Another example of immigrant niched businesses. Providence has one of the largest Cambodian populations in the Northeast, so don't know, but maybe, many of these too have been opened by Cambodians?

Speaking of Dunkin Donuts, they have at least 25 to 30 actual stores in the city if Providence alone.

Well, Providence has the Dunkin Donuts center, LOL...

Here, Dunkin Donuts fit where the demographic is, but I have noticed that Indian Americans are starting to dominate in some areas in the suburbs, not that it matters, LOL.

ENOUGH WITH THE DAMNDONUTS ALREADY!!!!!!!! It's no wonder 2/3 of this country is a fatass!

^^ If you can't beat them...join them...

In California & on the West Coast about 80% of the donut shops are now run by Cambodians. Another example of immigrant niched businesses. Providence has one of the largest Cambodian populations in the Northeast, so don't know, but maybe, many of these too have been opened by Cambodians?

Asian Indians run most of them here in Delaware. Joe Biden got in trouble for making a cute comment about how the flow of Indian immigrants is good for Dunkin Donuts' business. :scouserd:

ENOUGH WITH THE DAMNDONUTS ALREADY!!!!!!!! It's no wonder 2/3 of this country is a fatass!

I'm skinny, I can talk about donuts all I want. :angel:

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm donuts...

:drool:

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm sprinkles...

Hey, when my metabamolism catches up to me, I'll stop eating 'em. But until that day...

http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/Simpsons_Donuts-l.jpg

^^ THAT'S what I'm talking about!

So which one of you is this?

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d70/naughtykat/fatass.jpg

Nah, it is Mid-Atlantic. If anything I would argue that Western New York like Western Pennsylvania gets Midwestern.

So which one of you is this?
Wow, that's just wrong.

If I ever allowed myself to reach that point, I'd like to assure society that I would march my fat ass right into oncoming traffic.

Wow, that's just wrong.

If I ever allowed myself to reach that point, I'd like to assure society that I would march my fat ass right into oncoming traffic.

I don't know what's funnier, that pic or the fact that Rocguy either had it on his hard drive or searched for it. HAHA! :eek2:

Get your mind out of the gutter..... I just typed "fatass" into google image.

Nah, it is Mid-Atlantic. If anything I would argue that Western New York like Western Pennsylvania gets Midwestern.

yea i agree. threads about upstate need to be more specific. if the title was eastern new york state as part of new england, youd probably see more yeas than nays. you cant treat upstate as if its one region. its definitely split up.

Anything outside of NYC is considered upstate New York. From the tappan zee bridge on up thats upstate new york. Westchester county where white plains, new rochelle is thats new york, but they call it the suburbs. New yorkers dont even acknowledge white plains or westchester county really.

deff. not.....Buffalo isn't New England or Midwest....we have our own damn culture lol.

although i agree wholeheartedly with the map (sargeant's?)
thats a good one..
2 summers ago i was in cooperstown/oneonta....deff. a NE flavor there.

Even New England itself can be too indeterminate, as has been mentioned. Connecticut and Maine aren't very similar.

Taking that into account when I drew that line on the map, I didn't want to imply that since I lumped Malone, NY and Westchester Cty into the same area, I thought those areas were the same. More like "total" or "overall" New England-ness as it translates directly to the west. Malone has a bit of Vermont-ish New England in it; the Westchester area has more "Connecticutishness" (say that 10x fast).

I guess you'd have an easier time finding areas that DON'T have similar characteristics to adjacent regions and states.
Eastern upstate New York is kinda like New England and kinda like the Finger Lakes area which is sort of like western NY which shares similarities with Erie and NE Ohio, which isn't all that different from the Toledo area, which isn't terribly different than northern Indiana, which if truth be told, reminds some of parts of Illinois, which merges quite nicely with Iowa, which, if you ask some, is kinda like eastern parts of Nebraska....and so forth.

lol. That's a pretty good point.

I guess you'd have an easier time finding areas that DON'T have similar characteristics to adjacent regions and states.
Eastern upstate New York is kinda like New England and kinda like the Finger Lakes area which is sort of like western NY which shares similarities with Erie and NE Ohio, which isn't all that different from the Toledo area, which isn't terribly different than northern Indiana, which if truth be told, reminds some of parts of Illinois, which merges quite nicely with Iowa, which, if you ask some, is kinda like eastern parts of Nebraska....and so forth.

elaborate?

elaborate?
My point is of course parts of eastern upstate NY feature some of the same characteristics that one would find in New England...because culture, architecture and attitude don't change because of a state line. Changes, almost always, are gradual as you move east to west or north to south. But saying you "consider" parts of NY to be New England is just as wrong as saying I consider Erie, PA to be part of western New York. It's not. It's Pennsylvania.

No Upstate NY is not part of New England.

People from NYC would consider anywhere above Westchester to be "hick" country. Even Rockland, Putnam, and Orange County.

Hartford to me is IDENTICAL to Buffalo, NY, they have so much in common its remarkable. They even look and feel similar. Rochester is similar to Providence, RI. Syracuse is similar to New Haven. Albany is similar to ?, maybe Stamford.

Upstate NY is just part of the Northeast or part of the Atlantic States, it is its own demographic. People are similar to Mid-Westerners, cities are similar to New England. Thats my take.

My point is of course parts of eastern upstate NY feature some of the same characteristics that one would find in New England...because culture, architecture and attitude don't change because of a state line. Changes, almost always, are gradual as you move east to west or north to south. But saying you "consider" parts of NY to be New England is just as wrong as saying I consider Erie, PA to be part of western New York. It's not. It's Pennsylvania.

youre taking it literally. i think the only one. what youre saying is obvious to us all.

its not officially part of New England, hell no. Thats obvious to us all. Its basic regional terminology, but to say certain characteristics found within upstate and new england are similar, is acceptable, and what were looking for.

No way.

Albany always struct me as having a New England mill-town vibe similar to Lowell.

Even New England itself can be too indeterminate, as has been mentioned. Connecticut and Maine aren't very similar.


Yeah, except for some history and some geographical similarity in parts, I don't think Connecticut and Maine have anything in common, but they are both the extremes...

No Upstate NY is not part of New England.
Hartford to me is IDENTICAL to Buffalo, NY, they have so much in common its remarkable. They even look and feel similar. Rochester is similar to Providence, RI. Syracuse is similar to New Haven. Albany is similar to ?, maybe Stamford.

How is Hartford identical to Buffalo?

Buffalo, with a Midwestern flavor, has very little in common with any of the New England cities. Rochester that does quite a bit in common with Hartford, not just being on river. Syracuse reminds me more Worcester, another hilly city.

Hartford and Buffalo don't really have much in common, really...

The Upstate NY city that reminds me of Hartford most is Albany...generally the more west you go, the less similarities you see, which has been the major point of this forum...

But it is all the Northeast...Buffalo is as northeastern as Boston or New York. Because the meaning of the Northeast is not regulated to the DC-Boston megalopolis, that is only one portion of this large and diverse region.

its not officially part of New England, hell no. Thats obvious to us all. Its basic regional terminology, but to say certain characteristics found within upstate and new england are similar, is acceptable, and what were looking for.

Well, if it's so obvious, why have a discussion about it? The question was not so obvious: It was: Do you consider Upstate New York as part of New England? According to the poll results, 75 percent of those responding don't find it obvious at all.

the title and poll are very black and white. theres a reason the new england patriots play in boston. they represent the new england area, not nys. culturally id argue eastern ny more a new england vibe, something western ny lacks.

upstate is just upstate. certain areas have similar vibes in all forms whether its canada, new england, the midwest or whatever. if i absolutely had to answer, id say the last new england stronghold/influence would be utica. upstate is two different regions within itself. the map on page 1 illustrates my opinion best.

the upstate divide is somewhere around syracuse.

I grew up in Syracuse, still have family there. Mostly Yankee fans but still a sizeable number of BoSox fans in upstate NY, especially around Albany and along border of Vermont.

Southwestern CT isn’t like your typical NY suburb. It has a lot of more of a New England feel than NY one in terms of architecture and people. Only thing that CT has in common with NY is that Southwestern CT has some of the same business as NY has.

Upstate is mid-Atlantic. Even in government. New England is really big on cities and towns having strong forms of government and counties being really weak. NY has a mixture but most counties in upstate are strong and towns are weak.

haha. the only thing i've learned form this thread is that people in this can't detect sarcasm and the like when they're life depends on it.

No we're like the Midwest

No we're like the Midwest

no we're like the Northeast, ok maybe a little Midwest....and what was the author of this thread thinking??? Not one person in the history of America has ever confused New York State with New England. Is Florida part of the Midwest? no. Is California a part of the Great Plains? no.

in new england (esp. mass and RI), there are more DD's than there are people. their strawberry banana smoothies are the best . too bad almost none of them around here.


I got my Dunkin Donuts uniform on right now :lol:

no we're like the Northeast, ok maybe a little Midwest....

Buffalo is nothing like New York City, its night and day.

People Ive talked to will compare Buffalo to Cleveland or Detroit

no we're like the Northeast, ok maybe a little Midwest....and what was the author of this thread thinking??? Not one person in the history of America has ever confused New York State with New England. Is Florida part of the Midwest? no. Is California a part of the Great Plains? no.

People have compared LA to Miami

nope, i wouldn't consider upstate NY as part of NE

geographically yes...

culturally no