Hi everybody

I raise up the question about conducting the gay parade in Jerusalem (which eventually was canceled due to the war).

do you think it is a gay rights issue?

on one hand, it is clear that the prohibition (if was) breaches the right for freedom of speech etc..
on the other, we shouldn't put ourselves directly into brawls - after all, it is a unique and problematic city without gays... it's not REALLY necessary for the parade to be held in Jerusalem.

what do you think?

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(till then, I'll find me another jewish gay from Israel... :) are you? find me at http://www.gay.co.il)

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=370083

Jerusalem is without gays?
are u kidding?
there is also council member is a gay;)

No gays in Jerusalem... hehe... yeeeah suuuuure *note the sarcasm*

Perhaps Jerusalem should host and sponsor the world's largest barbeque ribs cookoff where the greatest pork ribs are the center piece of the Jerusalem ribs contest. All the local Jews and Arabs can come taste the best pork ribs in the world. That also seems fitting for Jerusalem to do.

That would not make sense in a country where people don't eat pork... however, it doesn't seem to me that the percentage of gay population is lower in Israel than in other countries, so I wonder, what's wrong with celebrating the gay pride parade in the capital city of Israel? Or now it's a haredi ghetto?

That would not make sense in a country where people don't eat pork... however, it doesn't seem to me that the percentage of gay population is lower in Israel than in other countries, so I wonder, what's wrong with celebrating the gay pride parade in the capital city of Israel? Or now it's a haredi ghetto?
Why do you say its a haredi ghetto, whatever that is? And how does the per capita number of gay people in Israel relative to the per capita number of gay people elsewhere in the world relate to my original post?

I say it because it seems that in your opinion haredim are free to live their lives the way they want in Jerusalem, but not the Israeli gay community, so I wonder why, now only haredim are free in Jlem? Last time I checked Jlem was the capital of ALL ISRAEL (that obviously includes the gay Israelis).

As for the gay people percentage in Israel... I commented it because of your absurd comparation with a pork contest in Jlem, when we all know Jews don't eat pork. What was the relation with the gay parade? Do you think it's not something "Jewish" or "Israeli" to be gay? Then you have to learn a lot about your own country...

i support having a gay parade in jerusalem, but we all need to look also that this city is full or ortodox religious people, jews, xtians and muslims, if they make this parede a dissaster can happen, so i think is better to do it in tel aviv or any other city with an open mind

If people surrender to the threats of the radicals the only thing that will happen is that they will realise that they can achieve their goals through threats... how are you going to stop them then? How are you going to stop them when they know that to get what they want and prevent people from expressing their ideas and feelings the only thing they have to do is to threaten with a bloodshed? First of all, those who made such threats should be taken to court for incitation to violence, and second, there's nothing in the Israeli law that forbids a parade of that kind, in Jerusalem or ANYWHERE ELSE in the State of Israel.

I say it because it seems that in your opinion haredim are free to live their lives the way they want in Jerusalem, but not the Israeli gay community, so I wonder why, now only haredim are free in Jlem? Last time I checked Jlem was the capital of ALL ISRAEL (that obviously includes the gay Israelis).

As for the gay people percentage in Israel... I commented it because of your absurd comparation with a pork contest in Jlem, when we all know Jews don't eat pork. What was the relation with the gay parade? Do you think it's not something "Jewish" or "Israeli" to be gay? Then you have to learn a lot about your own country...
The only reason Jews do not eat pork is because of the Torah. The only reason we do not have celebrations of the wonders of pork is because of the Torah. Have you any other reason why Jews do not eat pork historically.. no. Even if you are not observant of Torah and mitzvot, there is no other historical source for Jews not eating pork other than Torah ... that is our tradition. Yet there is no law against eating pork in Israel. Yet you can accept the reason we would not hold a celebration of pork in our people's capital. The same with homosexuality. Jews do not celebrate homosexuality even if some Jews engage in its activities. Just as jews do not celebrate the tasty pork products even if some Jews eat pork. It is not an issue of law. It is an issue of what Jews celebrate. Jerusalem is the eternal Jewish capital, well before there was ever a modern state called Israel. If you have something to discern between the pork issue and the gay issue, and both of their roots in Jewish custom, I would welcome your ideas. This is not a heredi issue .. it is a Jewish issue.

I used to support such an event taking place in Jerusalem, now I do not.

Gay rights are an issue that has to be adressed, but to have such a "sexual" demonstration at the heart of a city considered holy by many people, including those who inhabit it, is clearly disrespectfull.

Note that I would not be against a "normal" pro-homosexual rights demonstration in Jerusalem, but a sexual meat market for gay people? No.

This is simply a matter of respect.

it is so ironic, celebrating homosexuality in probably the most holiest city in the world. What would Jesus, Moses or Muhammad think of this?

Blasphemy :mad:

[...] but to have such a "sexual" demonstration at the heart of a city considered holy by many people, including those who inhabit it, is clearly disrespecting.
Note that I would not be against a "normal" pro-homosexual rights demonstration in Lebanon, but a sexual meat market for gay people? No.

[...] The same with homosexuality. Jews do not celebrate homosexuality even if some Jews engage in its activities. [...] If you have something to discern between the pork issue and the gay issue, and both of their roots in Jewish custom, I would welcome your ideas. This is not a heredi issue .. it is a Jewish issue.

Who says about celebrating homosexuality??? Who says about "meat market"???
It's about gay pride (to show everybody has one) as Anton remarked:
[...] so I wonder, what's wrong with celebrating the gay pride parade in the capital city of Israel? Or now it's a haredi ghetto?

It sounds like Polish ruling coalition BS about "homosexual propaganda" and "propagation of homosexuality" during... chats about tolerance in schools or during "Marches of tolerance" in Poland (they look just like "Black marches" after shocking murder; no "nacked parts of body", no extravaganza, only rainbow flags, transparents with slogans etc.).

If there will be any activities against Israeli law (including public morality, as it's also part of the law), participants or organizers should response for it in a court.

Everythingsone, I got news for you, the Torah IS NOT the law of Israel, at least as long as haredim are kept away from power.

it is so ironic, celebrating homosexuality in probably the most holiest city in the world. What would Jesus, Moses or Muhammad think of this?

Well, Jesus, Moses and Muhamad aren't Israeli citizens, so I think that the Israeli citizens are the ones who should decide the kind of country they want to live in. And if they wanted the Torah to become the law of Israel, Shas would be leading the Knesset... which doesn't seem to be happening.

I used to support such an event taking place in Jerusalem, now I do not.

Gay rights are an issue that has to be adressed, but to have such a "sexual" demonstration at the heart of a city considered holy by many people, including those who inhabit it, is clearly disrespecting.

Note that I would not be against a "normal" pro-homosexual rights demonstration in Lebanon, but a sexual meat market for gay people? No.

This is simply a matter of respect.

Virtual, I agree with you that a so called "normal" pro - homosexual rights demonstration would be more appropriate, it's also more of my taste... but I wouldn't ban a carnavalesque parade just because it's not of my taste... it's also not of my taste the use of the headscarf (Arabs) or the backward haredim traditions (Orthodox Jews), but I don't tell them what to do. In a city like Jerusalem, where so many communities live side by side, respect to the others should prevail, and that means also to respect those who do not follow religious rules. Live and let live...

I think we should stop reasoning in theory here.

Yes in theory, such an event shouldn't be an issue.

But in the end, orinigaly the whole point of these parades is to make people accept homosexuality, to fight against discrimination, to break the taboo.

However, these parades only strenghen homophobia and the idea that homosexuality is just a decadent sexual fetish for large segments of society.

I have come accross numerous gay people who have said that these parades were not about politics anymore, and that it was just a gay version of the love parades in Germany or the Mardi gras in Louisiana.

PS: I off course meant Jerusalem in my previous post, and not Lebanon, I mix everything up by writting in all these threads at the same time.

Virtual, it can't just be a gay version of the love parade when there have been threats of a bloodbath if the parade takes place...

A gay parade in a city which is highly volatile and is the centre of faith for billions of religious people who might be offended by this is highly unwise ad irresponsible.

I still think that before anything else, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, and it's a shame that the citizens of Israel aren't free to celebrate whatever they want in their own capital city. Does it go against the Israeli laws?

It's funny how what many of you are saying resembles what many anti Israelis say... I mean "Go to Tel Aviv, Jerusalem is a mayor religious center for three religions", interestingly, I've heard this sentence more than once, and it wasn't about a gay parade, but about the whole government of Israel...

Everythingsone, I got news for you, the Torah IS NOT the law of Israel, at least as long as haredim are kept away from power.
You must learn how to keep discussions logical. When you are settled down enough to follow a thought through from beginning to its next logical point, let me know. Your response has nothing to do at all with the issues discused before. the relationship between the 2 issues is clearly delineated above for you. Do not change the subject to irrelevent and nonresponsive tidbits of an irrational thought process. Try to let go of your own biased and irrational views of other Jews in the hopes of following along with the discussion at hand. Your knee-jerk reaction only blinds your thought processes.

i have a qs,why do gays and lesbians want to have a parade in jerusalem, isent tel abib more liberal or there is another benifit for them from jerusalem demonstrantion?

They precisly want to parade in Jerusalem because it is a religious and conservative city...

ok got it, thanks.

Hamorabi, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel... now tell me if that's not important.

Hamorabi, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel... now tell me if that's not important.
its not about the importance, jerusalem is a holy city for the three main religiones of the world. and i have heard from an israeli friend that the city is not very livable for someone who wants to have fun or go clubbing for example. so it struck me that gay parades are always held in jerusalem although tel aviv is way too open and suitable for this event.

MMMMMMMM difficoult subject...

This years I went to the gay parade in Tokyo, and well I` ve seen the gay parade in Madrid because it`s so huge that if you are in the center of the city, no way you can ignore......

As gay I have to admit that I find great to make demonstrations for our rights etc etc From the other hand, I`m rpoud of myself, of being gay......dunno, it`s part of me, but it`s actually something secondary.....

I think the best is a Salomonic decission, after al it`s the city of Salomon.....


The gay have right to demonstrate for the values and rights etc etc etc but probably it would be intelligent to remember that they are in Jerusalem and that thwey should respect the people living as well....
So just as a matter of respect this haikry men wearing leather hald naked.....or women showing her bubbs shopuld be avoided.......in a way it should be a more "serious" parade.....

after all, Tel Aviv is better for partying...... :scouserd:

I just wished in Jerusalem Haredim would respect as much as they want to be respected in Mea Shearim..................
So, just as a matter of rights to do whatever they want (they are not harming anyone and if you don`t want to go see it, just don`t go) gays should fight for the "slaughty" kind of parades!

Even if I said, I don`t feel represented by those kind of acts, at least everyone should be open enough to accept that there are different people and to accept them to do what they feel like it.....they are not harming you as said! Even if you are a haredi which thinks that gay people are evil and sick, does it affect your life or beliefs?

The difference is that, Haredim fear everything from outside, including gay behavoirs in others....when gay people don`t give a fuck for what Haredim do.......
But probably, if Haredim wouldn`t be as sectarian, and they would let their children to choose their lifes, there wouldn`t be any Haredim anymore......

MMMMMMMM difficoult subject...

This years I went to the gay parade in Tokyo, and well I` ve seen the gay parade in Madrid because it`s so huge that if you are in the center of the city, no way you can ignore......

As gay I have to admit that I find great to make demonstrations for our rights etc etc From the other hand, I`m rpoud of myself, of being gay......dunno, it`s part of me, but it`s actually something secondary.....

I think the best is a Salomonic decission, after al it`s the city of Salomon.....


The gay have right to demonstrate for the values and rights etc etc etc but probably it would be intelligent to remember that they are in Jerusalem and that thwey should respect the people living as well....
So just as a matter of respect this haikry men wearing leather hald naked.....or women showing her bubbs shopuld be avoided.......in a way it should be a more "serious" parade...........
But it will not be avoided. It will be flaunted.

after all, Tel Aviv is better for partying...... :scouserd:

I just wished in Jerusalem Haredim would respect as much as they want to be respected in Mea Shearim..................
So, just as a matter of rights to do whatever they want (they are not harming anyone and if you don`t want to go see it, just don`t go) gays should fight for the "slaughty" kind of parades!...........
Why should the people of the place have to avoid thrir own streets so that others can flaunt their lack of public decency? It seems that all people are responsible for the basic societal norms when in public. The religous are not showing disrespect. The people going beyond the norms of societal contracts inherent in all societies are the ones showing lack of respect.

Even if I said, I don`t feel represented by those kind of acts, at least everyone should be open enough to accept that there are different people and to accept them to do what they feel like it.....they are not harming you as said! Even if you are a haredi which thinks that gay people are evil and sick, does it affect your life or beliefs?

The difference is that, Haredim fear everything from outside, including gay behavoirs in others....when gay people don`t give a fuck for what Haredim do.......
But probably, if Haredim wouldn`t be as sectarian, and they would let their children to choose their lifes, there wouldn`t be any Haredim anymore......
Religous would have no interest in trading diamonds and beauty uncountable for worthless trinkets offered by these types of spectacles. Who are you kidding?

^^ maybe black robes and fur hats that stink and smell with the worst b/o humanly imaginable in 35c heat is lack of public decency?
who are you to tell us what is and isnt decent??

why should posters be destroyed just because they show people in short sleeves? and women cant wear shorts because of over-horny religious?

^^ maybe black robes and fur hats that stink and smell with the worst b/o humanly imaginable in 35c heat is lack of public decency?
who are you to tell us what is and isnt decent??

why should posters be destroyed just because they show people in short sleeves? and women cant wear shorts because of over-horny religious?
I am you and you are me. Decency in any society is an agreed upon set of values. Jerusalem has its societal norms as do other places as well. Society defines decency.

You self hatred is way out of control, by the way. Don't blame others for the decadence you run towards. Don't blame others for the lack you feel when others do not cling to the decadence you cannot get away from.

why is it out of control? when you wear coats and hats in summer you are bound to stink and sweat bad. believe me sitting next to them on a bus is not easy.

why is it out of control? when you wear coats and hats in summer you are bound to stink and sweat bad. believe me sitting next to them on a bus is not easy.
Read it again a few more times until you understand. You are capable if you put your mind to it.

You might even understand the pasuk if you put your mind to it.

חזק ואמץ כי אתה תנחיל את העם הזה את הארץ אשר נשבעתי לאבותם לתת להם

What is decent wont be forced on us by a minority that thinks it lives in a 17th century shteitel.

What is decent wont be forced on us by a minority that thinks it lives in a 17th century shteitel.
You are so full of fear and anger you do not even realize what you are writing. The only coercion going on here comes seething through your words and your ideas. Yet you blame others. The only 17th century shtetle is the one in your mind. And you still don't get there is no 'us' or 'them'. There is only society as a whole in a group setting that establishes each place's norms. It is you who wants to supercede the society to impose your beliefs on the cultural norms of Jerusalem.

I want to set them free from the dead-end they are in and make them productive in the society, they have to reform and they are avoiding it out of fear and fear alone.

I want to set them free from the dead-end they are in and make them productive in the society, they have to reform and they are avoiding it out of fear and fear alone.
So you do not believe the pasuk you use in your own posts?

חזק ואמץ כי אתה תנחיל את העם הזה את הארץ אשר נשבעתי לאבותם לתת להם

You avoid the issues and blame others for your own lack of understanding. They do not need your help, which is really a hinderance. And you do not need their help. You just need to help yourself and loose all your self hatred that you disguise as disdain for your brethren. Good luck.

^^ If you werent on the process of reform yourself, you wouldnt be able to use a computer or internet and we couldnt even be talking right now, so admit that Im right and you know what groups Im talking about, they live in a closed culture of fear.

I dont push myself on them to reform, but they cant push themselves if gays want to parade on the street, its their street as well and at least they contribute to the country.

and I can believe in our religious right to israel without being religious.
Its called a believing secular and its wonderful, try it ;)

^^ If you werent on the process of reform yourself, you wouldnt be able to use a computer or internet and we couldnt even be talking right now, so admit that Im right and you know what groups Im talking about, they live in a closed culture of fear.

I dont push myself on them to reform, but they cant push themselves if gays want to parade on the street, its their street as well and at least they contribute to the country.

and I can believe in our religious right to israel without being religious.
Its called a believing secular and its wonderful, try it ;)
You have no idea what you are talking about. You only know your own twisted misunderstandings and you project them on others. Rafuah shlemah, Achi.

You are so full of fear and anger you do not even realize what you are writing. The only coercion going on here comes seething through your words and your ideas. Yet you blame others. The only 17th century shtetle is the one in your mind. And you still don't get there is no 'us' or 'them'. There is only society as a whole in a group setting that establishes each place's norms. It is you who wants to supercede the society to impose your beliefs on the cultural norms of Jerusalem.

Do you blame him for feeling fear? After all it's Orthodox people who throw stones at drivers during Shabbat, and they're also the ones who threat with a bloodbath if a gay parade is held in Jerusalem.

Do you blame him for feeling fear? After all it's Orthodox people who throw stones at drivers during Shabbat, and they're also the ones who threat with a bloodbath if a gay parade is held in Jerusalem.
That is not what he fears.

What I fear is the religious intolerance and wars between orthodox hatzerot in europe, spreading here because of their inability to modernize and do what judaism was always best in - adopting. Im sure in new york they wouldnt dare to force themselves and jerusalem being holy is an excuse, they are trying to overtake jerusalem and drive out seculars, this is only one step.

What I fear is the religious intolerance and wars between orthodox hatzerot in europe, spreading here because of their inability to modernize and do what judaism was always best in - adopting. Im sure in new york they wouldnt dare to force themselves and jerusalem being holy is an excuse, they are trying to overtake jerusalem and this is only one step.
You are the one who is showing intolerance here. And according to you, all laws and societal norms are coercive and intolerant because they, by definition, proscribe acceptable and unacceptable behavior and actions.

"inability to modernize and do what judaism was always best in - adopting." .. you do not know what you are talking about. Torah adapts to the times without compromising its essence. Abandonment of principles is not adapting ... it is capitulating. And Torah and Judaism never does that, and succeeds. It is a path to self destruction and has nothing to do with Judaism.

However, these parades only strenghen homophobia and the idea that homosexuality is just a decadent sexual fetish for large segments of society.

I've nothing to say but that, as a gay, I think you're right.

gays may see it as a 'gay rights' issue, but doing it in Jerusalem, deliberately to oppose or protest, stimulates bad and ugly remarks on gays among the "normals" :) , and in fact brings the opposite of the original aim of the parade - fighting for gays rights.

Jews ultraorthodox should not stop anyone from being free and live their lives as they want..can you imagine gays demostrating and getting agressive against ultraorthodox and against their way of living and dressing, etc...this people are the biggest problem of the region, thanx God we dont have this fanatics in Europe (at least not with any real power) !!!!

you have other fanatics in europe, christian fanatics, neonazis..
they oppose it not less than anyone else

I'm against a gay pride parade in Jersualem, it's a holy city why should they be allowed to march there? They know it will only inflame the religious Jews there and it's a slap in the face to Israel.

You know why is it that the Gays feel they need to parade and tell everyone there gay? No one cares, we don't march around having "Straight" parades, then they wonder why they are getting stabbed in Jerusalem? As a Jew I am disgusted and ashamed that this parade was allowed in Jerusalem.

Wasn't the parade scheduled for today?,

did the parade happen?

I'm so out of the loop.

I'm against a gay pride parade in Jersualem, it's a holy city why should they be allowed to march there? They know it will only inflame the religious Jews there and it's a slap in the face to Israel.

You know why is it that the Gays feel they need to parade and tell everyone there gay? No one cares, we don't march around having "Straight" parades, then they wonder why they are getting stabbed in Jerusalem? As a Jew I am disgusted and ashamed that this parade was allowed in Jerusalem.

The more I read the more I am soooo happy to live in the free and wonderful Europe !!!!!!:banana:

The parade took place with 5000 participating people and next year it will also take place and if it disgusting to someone he can close his eyes because part of democracy is that everyone has a right to be himself if it doesnt hurt anyone else, and it doesnt.

Israel is much more liberal on gay issues than Europe and has much more new laws to allow same marriage rights.
We also have for example the Danish ambassador who lives with his partner in Tel Aviv..

so I think Europe can look to Israel as a rolemodel for gay rights, and all this happened here in less than 15 years, when laws banning gays were stopped.

Jews ultraorthodox should not stop anyone from being free and live their lives as they want..can you imagine gays demostrating and getting agressive against ultraorthodox and against their way of living and dressing, etc...this people are the biggest problem of the region, thanx God we dont have this fanatics in Europe (at least not with any real power) !!!!

:lol: just read about parades in Croatia,Poland,Russia,Lithuania,Hungary,Romania...(Europe isn't just Spain,France,UK and Sweden)

The parade took place with 5000 participating people and next year it will also take place and if it disgusting to someone he can close his eyes because part of democracy is that everyone has a right to be himself if it doesnt hurt anyone else, and it doesnt.

Israel is much more liberal on gay issues than Europe and has much more new laws to allow same marriage rights.
We also have for example the Danish ambassador who lives with his partner in Tel Aviv..

so I think Europe can look to Israel as a rolemodel for gay rights, and all this happened here in less than 15 years, when laws banning gays were stopped.

+Israeli gay representers has better rights than in France and USA

Israel is much more liberal on gay issues than Europe and has much more new laws to allow same marriage rights.


LOL now that's funny... how about proving it with some facts? :)

so I think Europe can look to Israel as a rolemodel for gay rights, and all this happened here in less than 15 years, when laws banning gays were stopped.

It happened in less than 15 years cos your country is made up from people who came from other countries where the Gay and Lesbian movement had been working and fighting for the rights of the community for years... let's not manipulate the facts :)

Antón, people didnt start to go to Israel 15 years ago. And other than Spain i cant think of much countries in Europe with similar laws for homosexuals as Israel.

It happened in less than 15 years cos your country is made up from people who came from other countries where the Gay and Lesbian movement had been working and fighting for the rights of the community for years... let's not manipulate the facts :)

yeah russians and ethiopians:lol:

Antón, people didnt start to go to Israel 15 years ago. And other than Spain i cant think of much countries in Europe with similar laws for homosexuals as Israel.

Bikes, you think I didn't know people migrated to Israel from way longer than 15 years? You don't need to insult my intelligence to disagree with me, and you know very well that if Israel is a progressive country towards homosexuality it is because of those Israelis of Western background which inherited the respect for human rights from their Western European/American origins. As Zohar said (which actually supported my post though he tried the contrary, too bad for him), it's obviously not Russians or Ethiopians the communities that are fighting for the gay rights in Israel, but those who are of American or Western European origin. Is anyone going to deny this now?

As for laws for homosexuals similar as the ones Israel has... basically every Western European country has laws like that, if you don't know about it, then you need to inform yourself better. It's not just about Belgium, the Netherlands and Spain approving gay marriage, but in almost every Western European country you have partnership laws and anti discrimination laws (anti discrimination laws are also granted by the European Union), that's very common over here and those are rights we take for granted, unlike in the Middle East where respect for homosexuals is such a rare thing that just cos Israel has it they think they're like the top of the world in the gay right thing, you wish, guys.

Anton go check facts about emmigration:D
(most of people with european origins are israeli...american jews are mostly anti-gay cuz they are religious!
i thought u're good guy i never didn't know Europe=4 countries of Western Europe!

Well, i do not think, that we have to state that the liberal laws in Israel are due to European immigrants. Their modern society is due to high quality education. We could also say that America is liberal with homosexuals due to European background..

Only 3 countries in Europe have allowed gay marriages till now, out of 55(!), so i think Israel is well above the average European country in this sense. Also artificial insemination for Lesbians isnt common in Europe either.. I dont know who said Israel is on the top of the world in this topic, i believe its Spain.

i never didn't know Europe=4 countries of Western Europe!

Go learn some English, you didn't get a thing of what I said.

I dont know who said Israel is on the top of the world in this topic

Someone was bragging about "how much Europe has to learn from Israel" concerning gay rights... well, dreaming is for free.

Well, i do not think, that we have to state that the liberal laws in Israel are due to European immigrants.

I was talking about people of European background, not direct inmigrants, try not to manipulate my words.

it's so stupid!!
european background?who came in 1930-1948? they knew about gay rights?

Go learn some English, you didn't get a thing of what I said.

yes u're always right!
u said Europe gives rights to gays!
what about Russia,Poland,Greece,Croatia,Serbia,Hungary,Romania,Bulgaria,Czech.rep.,Macedonia,Albania,Lithuania,Latvia,Estonia,Portugal etc...there are just few gay friendly countries in Europe! Spain,UK,Sweden,Denmark,Finland,Norway and Germany! that's all

Someone was bragging about "how much Europe has to learn from Israel" concerning gay rights... well, dreaming is for free.

Israel is not on topic for sure!but one of tolerant countries

LOL now that's funny... how about proving it with some facts? :)

facts?

gays enjoy same marital rights as non gays. the only european countries even close to that is holland and denmark.

facts?

gays enjoy same marital rights as non gays. the only european countries even close to that is holland and denmark.

Actually that's not true, but if you're happier believing that... feel free.

facts?

gays enjoy same marital rights as non gays. the only european countries even close to that is holland and denmark.

Even close? Excuse moi? Gay's in The Netherlands hold the same rights as heterosexuals regarding everything. That's not close, it's better. And same-sex marriage has still not been fully sanctioned in Israel. Common-law marriage status has been given thru several court appeals though, so Israel is making a lot progress. It's good.

*that was my I have a bigger one rant!*

:lol:

Same in Spain, so yeah, ours is bigger too! :D

I was talking about people of European background, not direct inmigrants, try not to manipulate my words.

Okay, i didnt know that, its not manipulating, but if you dont express fully of what you mean, its easy to misunderstand, thats what happened..

Yeah... my apologies, Bikes, I didn't mean to be harsh with you!