To digress a bit from the ongoing Monorail debate in another thread, I picked-up this news from the Daily Breeze and Curbed LA:

http://la.curbed.com/2006-08-harbor1.jpg
http://la.curbed.com/2006-08-HarborSubdivision.gif

Wow. We don't know where the MTA is gonna get all of its money from, but we hope they get some more so they can actually make one or two of their studied light rail routes become reality. Today, the Daily Breeze reports on an infrequently used rail line, known as the Harbor Subdivision, connecting downtown to the South Bay that has the potential to be integrated into the City's existing mass transit system - whether by bus, light rail or MetroLink rail. Proponents of the rail line have gained the notice of the MTA and City Officials.

Harbor Area Councilwoman Janice Hahn also favors mass transit along the Harbor Subdivision.

"I think the whole Harbor Area is disconnected from good mass transit," she said. "This would connect Wilmington eventually to the Green Line, so I think this is a good rail line to connect the Harbor Area."

Both Hahn and Rosendahl believe commuter rail on the Harbor Subdivision would complement local light rail along an extended Green Line.

The Harbor Subdivision could accomplish---a direct route to LAX from Downtown with no train switches. Rosendahl has termed the right-of-way "The LAX Express". If only.

Links for more info:
[B]http://thetransitcoalition.us/TTC_MTA-HarborSubdivisionIndex.htm
http://www.dailybreeze.com/news/articles/3597916.html?page=1&c=y

:laugh: right about the mono thread.

looks great. i suppose it's a given that it will have transfer stations with the green and blue lines. hopefully the mta will extend the north end of it to union station or to connect with the goldline.

i bet they already have most of the money for this too. i heard the city made a lot of revenue this year. plus the mayor has done a lot of international and national business trying to collect money.

this topic reminds me: how is the south bay doing? wasn't there a revitalization project proposed for the area (i really don't know if that's off topic or not)?

I can see a station that would be shared with green line, but why the blue line? if you we're headed to long beach, you would from the southbay, you would be better off taking the train south and catching a bus, not going all the way to south LA just to take the 45 minute blue line ride.

As for south bay revitalization, ive never heard of such a thing. the south bay is pretty self sustaining area, lots of jobs and lots of housing, no real need for any revitalization. however, if this metrolink line was to get build, i would imagine it would spark some higher density housing near the stations. the only thing is that commuter rail is not economically viable enough to run lfrequently like a subway or light rail line. so this future metrolink route probably wouldnt give people the opportunity to give up their cars, just avoid using them to commute to the airport or work (if they worked downtown). regardless, its a hell of an idea and in surprised that more attention has not been brought to this idea.

True...I think the SouthBay/San Pedro area is under-served by mass transit. I moved back to Redondo Beach 2 months ago. My commute to downtown would be: park my car in the Marine Avenue Green Line Station, get off at the Harbor Fwy Station and take the Metro Express bus to 7th/Figueroa...It's not bad at all but could be better. It would be nice if the rail line actually ends in downtown San Pedro, makes a loop through Gaffey street and back. In its present form, the Green line is indeed a train to nowhere, so this plan is a welcome relief.....Regarding new developments in the South Bay related to transportation or TOD's, nothing much. The area lags far behind Hollywood, Long Beach, Pasadena but traffic is getting worse.....

it's all nice but the SB seems to like its taste of suburbia type of lifestyle, their are other areas that are making much more noise about rapid transit. Pasadena, Burbank and Glendale got together and paid for their own EIR (did not wait for the MTA)to see if a east west train or busway would be viable. Now that's ambition!

the map shows the line going east past the 110 and pretty much passes downtown on the south side. it just about gets to the los angeles river. it goes almost 1 mile past long beach avenue to santa fe avenue then turns north. the line might not intersect a station, but it does go over or under the line.

also, if i lived in inglewood and worked on flower street, i could transfer from the san pedro line to the blue line. if i didn't transfer, i would have to walk about 5 miles to get to flower street. of course i don't know how many people do that here, but it would be better if it help out as many as possible.

the san pedro redevelopment topic was a thread that showed up months ago and lasted for a week. i agree that this area would densify more quickly if the proposed line were in place (it is encouraged around all transit afterall).

arch1: i don't know if this new line would do anything for you. you would have to transfer to the blue line if you didn't take the metro express fom the harbor station.

nevertheless, i'd rather have it than not. any transit in the los angeles region would work with todays traffic problems. that and i would like clear roads when i'm driving to disneyland :) .

I'm having a hard time reading the LAX/Westchester route on my treo. Can someone confirm the route......... Many thanks in advanced!

On the other hand, it's about time we get a piece of the action for what we contribute to mass transit.

We should build it, but how much will this cost? :)

I would think that it would be more of use as a Metrolink line, most likely down to Orange County someplace.

Also, sean11, not to be mean or anything, but how about using some puncuation and stuff occasionally? It makes all of your posts sound very emotionless and rushed.

Also, that last post needed a question mark. Badly.

Is that better Phanlax, thanks for the tip.

it's all nice but the SB seems to like its taste of suburbia type of lifestyle, their are other areas that are making much more noise about rapid transit. Pasadena, Burbank and Glendale got together and paid for their own EIR (did not wait for the MTA)to see if a east west train or busway would be viable. Now that's ambition!
You're right on the money!....and to think that 60-70 years ago, the Red Cars' tracks were all over the South Bay. The original Red Car rights-of-way were bought by the respective cities of Manhattan Beach, Hermosa and Redondo Beach, tore them up or paved over them. The Valley Blvd. line, which passes through 3 cities & used to connect the South Bay with downtown LA, is now a jogging path and a public park...Some remnants of the tracks are still visible in some areas...tsk!tsk! Traffic is horrendous along Rosecrans Ave., PCH and Aviation Blvd. and yet not a single political leader in the area had ever addressed the issue of mass transit. There aren't even any street signs that would lead you to the Green Line train stations....and what's the deal with El Segundo? There are 3 Green line stations in the city and yet not a single TOD project is in the works...They need to retool their zoning regulations ASAP.....

So sorry. In this economy, with this administration and such limited funds we cannot even begin to think to bring water to the South Bay. If they want it, they'll have to fight just like everyone else. Hell, Glendale has no urban rail but is, get this, building a TOD in its downtown in anticipation of something happening in the future. The South Bay already has the Blue Line running through it and the Green Line reaching into its interior! And as "arch" said, nary a TOD being built along the Green Line or even pie in the sky plans!! Look what Pasadena is doing along the Gold Line and it just makes the cities and neighborhoods along the Green Line look ass-backwards. Every other line has plans for TOD's except for the Green Line. Hell, El Segundo and the surrounding area even killed the airport expansion plan that would have ushered the Green Line into LAX. I say fuck'em!

As I posted on Curbed LA:

Projected cost of the Union Station to LAX Metrolink line is $700M according to the draft Long Range Transportation Plan that the MTA has to submit every 5 years. (I can't continue without pointing out that the fact our "LONG RANGE" transportation plans have to be rewritten every 5 years is a microcosm of what's wrong with city planning in Los Angeles.)

Nonetheless, I see several uses of the Harbor Subdivision, but the primary two are:

A) An LAX to Union Station train (LAXpress), which I prioritize very low on the list of necessary rail projects in Los Angeles County for a lot of reasons. Chief among them is the existance of the FlyAway that can get passengers from LAX to Union Station in 20-30 minutes and actually get passengers to their terminals. Unless LAX has a people mover to get passengers directly to the terminals, all passengers would simply have to get off the LAXpress to take a shuttle.

B) Much more interesting, necessary and popular: the southern portion of a 405 line that would connect the Valley, LAX, South Bay, Torrance and Long Beach. It's the Bronze line on the map:
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j142/damienwg/goodmon_final.gif

If traffic on the 405 is a barometer the line should be built heavy rail with the capacity to comfortably transport at least 200K passengers a day. Here’s how we build it. The mayor is currently out stumping for the Red line asking for $4-5B. That’s the cost of building the subway from its current terminus at Wilshire/Western to the Santa Monica Pier. My suggestion is that we get the $4-5B and instead of continuing west down Wilshire after Wilshire/Westwood we turn the trains north to run under the Sepulveda pass to connect to the Orange line at Van Nuys Blvd (once the trains reach Ventura/Van Nuys they could run elevated above Van Nuys Blvd), with stations along the way at UCLA, Ventura/Van Nuys, Van Nuys/Magnolia and Van Nuys/Oxnard (Orange line). The added benefits of this northward turn would be tremendous. Notably, it would illustrate as best as any alignment could the benefits to the San Fernando Valley of a Red line extension. It would make a lot of SFV opponents of the Wilshire line extension, direct stakeholders and I believe convert them into advocates. And it’s not like the change would be solely political. Shortly after the 405 freeway, Wilshire Blvd and the Expo Line begin to serve the same corridor, and a MAJOR portion of the westside’s car traffic are Valley residents.

So that’s the northern portion of the 405 line, now about the southern. Most current politicians vocally advocate the western portion of Green line be extended in two directions:

1) North from the Aviation station to LAX

2) South from the Redondo Beach station terminus to the South Bay Galleria along the Harbor Subdivision. The draft LRTP extends it even further down the Harbor Subdivision to Normandie south down Normandie to PCH and east to PCH/110 fwy.
If these two legs are built all that would be necessary is to “fill the gaps”:
-Wilshire/Westwood to LAX (via the eastern shoulder of the 405 freeway and south elevated down Sepulveda)
-PCH/110 fwy to the Blue line (via elevated east above PCH)

Do that and there’s your 405 line connecting the Valley, Westside, LAX, Torrance, South Bay and Long Beach. Providing transfer stations to the Wilshire line, Expo line, Green line, Blue line, San Fernando Valley busway (Orange line) and Harbor Transitway.

Like I said, it should be built to handle at least 200K passengers a day. It would undoubtedly get our rail system very close to serving 1 million passengers a day.

One of the reasons (probably the main reason)why this idea has gained some traction is that it could be done "on the cheap." I realize this is a relative definition of the word cheap, but much cheaper than a subway, and probaby cheaper than the Blue Line. Probably only slightly more than building the Green Line extension into LAX, which would have to be partially underground.

The whole "LAX Express" concept means the line would have very limited stops: LAX, maybe Crenshaw Avenue, Vermont Avenue, and Union Station. There's talk of making it a Metrolink line. This means the fares could be higher than MetroRail. They could also use diesel trains, which are cheaper to build (but not cheaper to operate) than electric trolleys. This includes using the horrible DMU cars (Diesel Multiple Units), a combination passenger car and locomotive in one. Ugh.

The map shows the line going up to the Blue Line and ending at Redondo Junction, which is along the Blue Line. From there, the line could go north and go to Union Station up Alameda Avenue, either in a trench, on the surface, or on an elevated structure. (Elevated trains with a locomotive? That's a bit retro, don't you think?) :)

^ Re: the southern portion of the Harbor Subdivision

The South Bay residents would throw a major hissyfit if we ever tried to push for DMUs to go through their communities. Just look at the ROW on the map to see how close and how many homes it comes near. With Juanita Millendar-McDonald sitting on the House Transportation Committee, I don't think we want to do anything but please South Bay residents. And yes it could be done on the cheap. But I question how much cheaper you think it would be. Should we spend $50-70 million more for grade-separations at major intersections in the South Bay? I think most people would undoubtedly say yes. Whether it's light rail or DMU, the tracks will need to be replaced and electrification is only $4-5 million a mile.

Looks good. How likely is it to get financed though?

Someone, anyone do we have any updates on this important Line???

I would like to see this as an electrified Metrolink line, built in two phases:

1) From Union Station to LAX
2) From LAX to the South Bay Transit Center

The line would be an express or limited-stop line that gets people to and from the airport in a jiffy. This would feature remote check-in and replace the LAX Flyaway bus.

The reason why this line should be a Metrolink and not Metro Rail line is so that it could be extended past the South Bay to Long Beach Airport and eventually John Wayne Airport, making this a rail line that connects between regional tranportation centers. This line could possibly extend past John Wayne to Ontario. The people who live around LAX would support this line, as it allows LAX capacity to be spread out over several regional airports.

Also because of the frequency of travel (every 30 minutes) this should be an electrified commuter line that would hopefully be the model for the rest of the Metrolink system to be upgraded to electric trains.

Someone, anyone do we have any updates on this important Line???

No definite timetable. I believe preliminary studies will be started soon though....

I've been in the South Bay all my life, and I know for a fact, the last thing the South Bay needs is a Light Rail line. The Blue Line or Green Line is within reach from most bus routes that run through it, and most of these brainwashed people aren't down with riding trains anyway. I think that money would be better spent getting to somewhere more....transit-friendly.

I've been in the South Bay all my life, and I know for a fact, the last thing the South Bay needs is a Light Rail line. The Blue Line or Green Line is within reach from most bus routes that run through it, and most of these brainwashed people aren't down with riding trains anyway. I think that money would be better spent getting to somewhere more....transit-friendly.

You're right but some places in the South Bay, especially places like Torrance, are in a "No Man's Land" as far as freeways; the 405 is still a long drive away.

I've been in the South Bay all my life, and I know for a fact, the last thing the South Bay needs is a Light Rail line. The Blue Line or Green Line is within reach from most bus routes that run through it, and most of these brainwashed people aren't down with riding trains anyway. I think that money would be better spent getting to somewhere more....transit-friendly.

you sound like a NIMBYist man. seriously, any transit is good and will have to be built up anyway. might as well do it before construction costs in the area shoot up

you sound like a NIMBYist man. seriously, any transit is good and will have to be built up anyway. might as well do it before construction costs in the area shoot up

Hey, don't get me wrong I'd love for that to happen, but it'd seem like the cash-strapped MTA would put that money where it'd be better used. The South Bay isn't traffic-choked like many other parts of LA yet, so I think they should build toward there first.

And not to mention the Blue Line is 6 blocks from my house, or a 5 minute bus ride away. :banana:

yeah true... i'd much rather see the gold line to montclair, the red line, or expo's second phase get the funding first. i figured since there was going to be a study, they might as well go through with something. the thing i don't like about the path they show is that it goes all over instead of just downtown to the south bay, probably following the 110 closely

I've been in the South Bay all my life, and I know for a fact, the last thing the South Bay needs is a Light Rail line. The Blue Line or Green Line is within reach from most bus routes that run through it, and most of these brainwashed people aren't down with riding trains anyway. I think that money would be better spent getting to somewhere more....transit-friendly.


I'm with you. This area already has the Green and Blue. It almost seems like the South Bay is the "other Valley".