I still think lots of people on this forum are too focused on height. Toronto has never really been about supertall buildings. I would go as far as saying we don't actually have any "supertalls." Leaving aside the CN tower. But who cares? The idea is to create a great city (which I'm not convinced we're doing as well as we could be), not just tall buildings.

At street level, the difference between a 200m building and a 300m building is negligible. But that's how we should be examining these buildings - from the street. How do they interact with life on the ground? How do they work in terms of logistics, transportation, shadows, etc? And yes, how do they look from different angles? Not just height. There is just way too much focus on that aspect in Toronto. It's the reason we (foolishly) think a building is good, like some on this site, and also why people (foolishly) think a building is bad. See: NIMBYs.

You make a lot of sense, but remember this is a skyscraper site (as in scrapin' the sky) and height comes with the territory...

I was just browsing city compilations and was struck by the situation in Seattle... tallest proposed, u/c etc. is 140m.

280m doesn't sound half bad does it?

Seattle voters reduced the allowable building height to 450 feet in 1990 or so, despite (and because of) the existence of numerous buildings above that height. This height hasn't been passed since except by IDX in 2003 (which steps up a hillside) and WaMu in 2006 (variance kept the #6 US bank headquartered in DT Seattle).

Only in 2006 did we create zones above 450'. This includes a small area with unlimited height but tough FAR (floor area ratio) restrictions, and additional areas at 500'. Some former 240' areas became 400' areas. Our tallest projects underway are 460 and 440. Even in the unlimited zone, the FARs preclude supertalls. An office building would have trouble getting over 700' or 800', even if they did find land, which would be difficult. I'm not sure if a residential tower has the same FAR restrictions.

Now we have one proposal that's probably 500 to 550', and another at 500', both offices that claim to be looking at 2008 starts. I can think of only one mixed-use tower proposed for a 500' zone and it's probably a few floors shorter than that.

Meanwhile, much of our proposed development intends to use the new 400' zoning.

DT Bellevue, our main suburban downtown, has a 450' limit. Current construction includes two at 450 and one at 416 I think, to go with one other 450 existing.

We're half the size of Toronto, and also less high-rise oriented. Our current volume of construction is a big deal for us in terms of percentage added. Many of us look at nearby Vancouver with real jealousy for their big edge in condo towers.

I'm sure Vancouver coveted Seattle's height for a long time. It's great that lots of density/downtown living is being added in seattle. Thanks for the insight.

second that, elliot. seattle's skyline looks better than toronto's, imho.

second that, elliot. seattle's skyline looks better than toronto's, imho.
Blasphemy!

What happened to the 325 m tower? I thought it would be Canada's tallest building.

What happened to the 325 m tower? I thought it would be Canada's tallest building.
Read this thread and you'll find out.

so I heard today that Howard Schultz bought one of (if not THE) penthouse of the trump building..... and I think thats pretty cool! although, he'll only be using it as a sort of vacation property.....

You make a lot of sense, but remember this is a skyscraper site (as in scrapin' the sky) and height comes with the territory...

I love height too. I would love to see taller buildings here. I think anyone who's into buildings is fascinated by the big and tall ones.

I just think that the focus is all wrong here in some cases. Some people think projects are bad just because they are tall, and some people think certain buildings are good just because they are tall.

so I heard today that Howard Schultz bought one of (if not THE) penthouse of the trump building

is that the Starbucks guy? very cool if true....how reliable is your source?

that is the Starbucks guy, and my source is pretty reliable, but I guess we'll have to see. maybe one day once it ever gets built....

that is the Starbucks guy, and my source is pretty reliable, but I guess we'll have to see. maybe one day once it ever gets built....

The Talon executives have bought the penthouses

OK folks, since some people are not sharing what they know, I will try and help out. Barricades will be up Sept 4th and Construction start is Sept 18th. BTW this date has been known for months.

Dino - the # of floors/stories isn't the same as height. Some buldings only have 8 -10 ft ceilings throughout the bulding. At Trump Toronto, the ceilings are 10ft. high in the hotel and 11 - 13 ft. high in the residences. For instance:

Trump International, Chicago 1,362 ft. / 96 stories
Trump International, Toronto 925 ft. / 57 stories
Trump World Tower, NYC 861 ft. / 72 stories
Trump Tower, NYC 664 ft. / 58 stories
Trump International, Las Vegas 622 ft. / 64 stories
Trump International, NYC, 583 ft. / 44 stories

I'd say Trump Toronto fits quite nicely in the Trump portfolio of tall buildings...

Well done! Hopefully that puts all the clamor about the # of stories to rest as this is still one tall building.

OK folks, since some people are not sharing what they know, I will try and help out. Barricades will be up Sept 4th and Construction start is Sept 18th. BTW this date has been known for months.


Intheknow07, if this turns out correct, I will personally buy you a drink..:cheers:

Trump Toronto when is the sales center coming down?

Sept 10th

May I ask where you got your information from? Thanks

He's "in the know" bwahaha.

May I ask where you got your information from? Thanks

Yes you can but I can not tell you, sorry. Keep track of my answers though. I don't mind being held accountable. If you have other questions related to the project, ask me. If I can answer it for you, I will.

time to speak up ;)

As far as I've being made aware the variances for the reduction & such were declined so

A. Is this true?
B. If so, I'd hate to see you held accountable if the appeals process takes longer than expected ;)

LOL. Was the variance really declined? I wish we had some more "in the know" people here who go to the meetings at City Hall and what not.

OK folks, since some people are not sharing what they know, I will try and help out. Barricades will be up Sept 4th and Construction start is Sept 18th. BTW this date has been known for months.

wow great news!
i love this city and i can't wait for this building to finally get under-way!
:banana:

LOL. Was the variance really declined? I wish we had some more "in the know" people here who go to the meetings at City Hall and what not.

the committeee of adjustments is actually through the OMB (not that it matters).

there were several minor variances applied for so not sure if only one or all (including the height reduction) were declined

What does that mean for the project?

Well if it was in fact declined, then they must build at 70 stories I guess...

Well if it was in fact declined, then they must build at 70 stories I guess...

Or maybe nothing at all? I can imagine the committee rejecting the height change on the basis that the height of the units is part of the product purchased and a reduction wouldn't be fair to buyers. But that's just my wild idea. I'm sure we'll know more soon.

Or maybe nothing at all? I can imagine the committee rejecting the height change on the basis that the height of the units is part of the product purchased and a reduction wouldn't be fair to buyers. But that's just my wild idea. I'm sure we'll know more soon.

Meh.. whatever the outcome, maybe the city can extort the full 70-storey tower?:lol: That'd be awesome, but I doubt it.. It's either 57 or nothing I guess.. They cannot afford 70.

I hope if it's declined by the city, that Trump decides not to build the tower in this location :D Or maybe not even build it at all! That would be awesome :D

time to speak up ;)

As far as I've being made aware the variances for the reduction & such were declined so

A. Is this true?
B. If so, I'd hate to see you held accountable if the appeals process takes longer than expected ;)

Valantino, as far as I know, varianaces were allowed/approved. What is your source of information?

^^ Different location?
Bring on Trump Yorkville then...If that works out than sales will go through the roof

I think the brand + design are more a culprit for the low sales than the location. Nearby Shangri-la certainly has had no problems selling.

Wait, what would be the point of declining a height reduction?

time to speak up ;)

As far as I've being made aware the variances for the reduction & such were declined so

A. Is this true?
B. If so, I'd hate to see you held accountable if the appeals process takes longer than expected ;)

You need a better source for your information, which is why I joined this thread. No, it is not true. TTT received approval for the variances and everything is on track.

You need a better source for your information

that's why I asked for confirmation

What is your source of information?

just a friend

Or maybe nothing at all? I can imagine the committee rejecting the height change on the basis that the height of the units is part of the product purchased and a reduction wouldn't be fair to buyers. But that's just my wild idea. I'm sure we'll know more soon.

Waterloo: The height change had no impact on purchasers in this property. They held out the highest floors in their sales campaign all along. The shorter tower was a contengency they had planned for if sales/financing required it. If you bought a unit on floor 40, it is still the same view whether the building is 70 stories or 57 stories.

Unless you are buying the penthouse, I don't get what the big deal is about the building height. Most units are going to have some blockage of view no matter what floor you are on. Maybe this is more about bragging rights for having the tallest building, otherwise, who cares.

I would like to get everyone's opinion on the probability of these buildings getting built in Toronto. I will answer the Trump one however the doubters can change it if they want. If you have data to back up your opinions, you get bonus points.

Trump 100%
Ritz %
Four Seasons %
Shangrila %

^^^^ Perhaps you should start a new thread in the toronto section with a poll and keep this thread just for Trump. You will get a better response with a new thread and keep the tangents here to a minimum.

I would like to get everyone's opinion on the probability of these buildings getting built in Toronto. I will answer the Trump one however the doubters can change it if they want. If you have data to back up your opinions, you get bonus points.

Trump 100%
Ritz %
Four Seasons %
Shangrila %

I can't see why any of them would not be a sure fire build. No building is 100% til it is occupied, but all of those are sure bets.

Let's keep this Trump specific. I can see this going way off topic.

It's been reported that Trump has now gone to 74 floors. Anyone else read that article? Crazy!

It's been reported that Trump has now gone to 74 floors. Anyone else read that article? Crazy!

There is no truth to that whatsoever. Where is this article?

It's been reported that Trump has now gone to 74 floors. Anyone else read that article? Crazy!

that would be great news
and no i haven't read the article
post it please.
but who knows there are probibly so many rumors going on about this building

LOL this forum is full of rumours.. bad ones though.. I certainly don't believe Trump growing to 74 stories...

Ahh, but the anticipation for the truth is what gets your blood running.

It's been reported that Trump has now gone to 74 floors. Anyone else read that article? Crazy!
Which article?

Gotta love rumours.

Which article?

An imaginary one?

hehe! Tallin does have a good imagination!

An imaginary one?
Oh yes that one! I know that one. :|

It's been reported that Trump has now gone to 74 floors. Anyone else read that article? Crazy!

Did you get your numbers reversed? Maybe it is dropping to 47 now. :)

The lastest information I have is the building has increased to 924.79 ft / 281.88 m.

Is that 7.4 feet increase from our last known numbers?

Oh the confusion.

I just wanted to stir the pot and be a dick. Sorry guys. Made it up.

you little shit..........tells you how gullible we all are (or some of us).

That's rediculous

I just wanted to stir the pot and be a dick. Sorry guys. Made it up.

We knew.

look at what this trump building is doing to us...

Hey Guys!

I just read on the internet that Trump is now going to be 74 floors.

Seriously. I just read it.

Hey Guys!

I just read on the internet that Trump is now going to be 74 floors.

Seriously. I just read it.

I didn't think it was funny the first time, but it sure was hilarious the second time. Way to be orignial!:bash:

Hey Guys!

I just read on the internet that Trump is now going to be 74 floors.

Seriously. I just read it.

and where did you read it?
could you please post some information for your point
maybe if you can proove it we would believe you

It wasn't funny the first time... infraction for the next person who gives information that is based upon nothing!

Hey Guys!

I just read on the internet that Trump is now going to be 74 floors.

Seriously. I just read it.

I seriously think this is funny but find it funnier that people didn't understand your joke guy. nice work!

and where did you read it?
could you please post some information for your point
maybe if you can proove it we would believe you

he read it because I wrote it you knob. jeez. he didn't say it was factual. he said he READ it.

I seriously think this is funny but find it funnier that people didn't understand your joke guy. nice work!

So a couple of people out of thousands think it was funny. There has to be a bad joke thread somewhere you could join instead.

he read it because I wrote it you knob. jeez. he didn't say it was factual. he said he READ it.

okay my bad
don't get all pissy about a mistake

Why does Tallinn keep coming back with a new name? I mean obviously he gets the hint he's not wanted here.

Could it finally be as 'intheknow' has said?


http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2007/te/bgrd/backgroundfile-4757.pdf

Looks that way to me valantino.

Valantino, what were you referring to? My computer crashed when I tried to download the Adobe file.

lane closure on Adelaide due to construction starting Sept 7 to Sept 30 2009. Adelaide is gonna be a parking lot with two lanes closed

lane closure on Adelaide due to construction starting Sept 7 to Sept 30 2009. Adelaide is gonna be a parking lot with two lanes closed

Keep in mind that lane closures do not equate to construction start. Barricades around the property up Sept 4th, demolition of sales office on Sept 10th, and construction start Sept 18th "IF" they are able to get Trump in town. They would like to tie construction start with the Toronto film festival if possible that starts on Sept 15th due to the extra publicity with the world press there. The big challenge has been aligning with Donald Trump's calendar in getting him into Toronto on that day.

^^ They might be better off doing it on a day when The Donald is not available locally. I don't think he has been a great selling point, so far, and he doesn't seem to have made much personal effort to push the project like he has the Chicago and the Las Vegas ones.

^^ I can't completely disagree with you about the local appeal for Donald Trump but I should say that the local Toronto market did scoop up alot of the hotel units. The condo sales have been more international buyers than local buyers.

Also, don't forget that Donald was paid $1.5M to come to speak at that event in Toronto earlier this year so apparently there is some local appeal. The key is does he appeal to the discretionary Toronto buyer who has $2M to buy a condo?

My gut tells me that the local Toronto market sees great business opportunity in the hotel units for income potential but does not want to either live in a Trump property or does not care for the location in the financial district. I suspect it is the latter.

I hope you are right

Well I am "in the know" afterall :)

If you can prove it fine. This project was suppose to start years ago. Start dates come and go. We will see. By all means prove it.

I believe:banana: you:) .

. This project was suppose to start years ago. .

Years ago? I thought the project was only conceived in 2004? Are you by chance one of the astounding number of people who confuse this project with the previous "Trump" project that fell through? Surely not after that subject has been so thoroughly flogged in these threads....... I'd say in all fairness that the maximum amount of delay was one year.

Since we have alot of local Toronto experts on this thread, can I get someone who understands the position of the Trump Tower on the lot to tell me what the views will be like in each direction if you are midway up in the building? Unless someone knows otherwise, I am going to guess that the position of the building will have a N, S, E, W view as opposed to a NE, SW, view etc.

The kind of things I am looking for are which views will you be able to clearly see Lake Ontario, CN Tower, Scotia Bank, distant buildings, etc. I am also interested in which of the view directions will be good and bad views. Any takers?

Wow that's hard to say.... I'd say looking north will not be blocked... looking South and West will be. East partially? I dunno, I could be wrong.

PS: It's CN Tower ;)

I'm pretty sure east-facing suites will be able to glimpse Scotia Plaza. Specifically, they will be able to read and record logins/passwords and emails on every computer.

Wow that's hard to say.... I'd say looking north will not be blocked... looking South and West will be. East partially? I dunno, I could be wrong.

PS: It's CN Tower ;)

very helpful.

Here is what I am guessing the views will be at the Trump Tower but would like verification:

SOUTH VIEW - faces Lake Ontario. Are you looking through other buildings to see Lake Ontario? How much obstruction in viewing the lake?

EAST VIEW - faces Scotia Plaza Building. Is this the worst view with the most obstruction?

NORTH VIEW - faces older downtown and city lights and could face a new 30 storey construction office building. View is unobstructed.

WEST VIEW - faces area not likely to see new construction and has view of the downtown area, First Canadian Place building, with the CN tower off to the left. Obstructed view due to First Canadian Place building.

NE VIEW - View of the city lights and Scotia Plaza building

SE VIEW - View is of the Lake and some green area, some city view and the Scotia Plaza Building

SW VIEW - View is of Lake Ontario and the CN Tower. Is this the best view in the building?

Do you agree? disagree?

Hey TrumpToronto, care to weigh in as well?

North view won't see the CN Tower.

North view won't see the CN Tower.

Thanks, I have made that correction.

SOUTHEAST - Blocked by Scotia
EAST - unobstructed above 400 feet (One Financial Centre)
NORTH - blocked by 50 storey Bay Adelaide
NORTHEAST - unobstructed until Bay Adelaide phase 2 is built
NORTWEST - unobstructed above 400 feet (Thompson Centre)
WEST - unobstructed above 400 feet (Oxfiord Tower)
SOUTHWEST - blocked by FCP, TD Tower
SOUTH - lakeviews entirely blocked by Canada Trust Tower , Bank of Nova Scotia Building and Commerce Court

^^ Hey thanks Valantino! Much appreciated.

SOUTH - lakeviews entirely blocked by Canada Trust Tower , Bank of Nova Scotia Building and Commerce Court


Keep in mind, unless building take up the entire peripheral view, they don't really "block" all that much. They have to be very close to have any major effect.

I'm sure there will be great views from almost any angle. Besides, I like a view looking through a forest of highrises...it's only if you staring straight into a wall in front of you that sucks.



KGB

I think the only view that might suck is the East. But maybe not, it's hard to say.

Does anyone have a good picture they could post that would highlight the views both obstructed & unobstructed?

there is some 'drift' (lack of a better term) so the placements are a little off
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a234/mark3333/downtown.jpg

one building has little affect but together you probably will see at most "a three lane wide" (instead of four to account for Trump being not directly over top Bay Street) view of the lake

Years ago? I thought the project was only conceived in 2004? Are you by chance one of the astounding number of people who confuse this project with the previous "Trump" project that fell through? Surely not after that subject has been so thoroughly flogged in these threads....... I'd say in all fairness that the maximum amount of delay was one year.

Thanks Taller, Better. Yes... sales for Trump International began September 2004. We had hoped to break-ground within 18-24 months of that date, but instead it has taken another 12 months... not unheard of or unusual for a building of this size and price range.

Some people here seem to forget that the original incarnation of this building was a Ritz-Carlton with a different development team--including Pat Baker's team handling sales. They unfortunately did not have enough capital to make the project go, or give it the push it needed. But I certainly can't fault them for their ambition. Additionally, Marriott at the time began pulling back many projects in several cities following 9/11--including Toronto. The timing was not great for a project like this. Nor do I think Toronto was quite ready for it.

Trump came into the game towards the end and only as a very minor marketing partner at the time.

The current development team and the Trump Organization rescued this project because they saw the viability in it, redesigned the building and re-branded it Trump International in 2003/04. Outside of our development team, there were very few people who believed in the project locally. And yet, it has been a success and we proved that there is in fact a five-star luxury market in Toronto... which helped pave the way for developments from our competitors. And honestly, having competition has helped us this past year.

In the end, I think the city of Toronto will benefit greatly from having both a Trump building and Ritz-Carlton, as well as Four-Seasons and Shangri-La. These four 4/5-star luxury projects will help to raise the profile of Toronto worldwide. It's all good!

Awesome job with the picture Valantino! I think I know some of the buildings you have highlighted.

Has the buildings design been revised in any way Trumptoronto?

SOUTHEAST - Blocked by Scotia
EAST - unobstructed above 400 feet (One Financial Centre)
NORTH - blocked by 50 storey Bay Adelaide
NORTHEAST - unobstructed until Bay Adelaide phase 2 is built
NORTWEST - unobstructed above 400 feet (Thompson Centre)
WEST - unobstructed above 400 feet (Oxfiord Tower)
SOUTHWEST - blocked by FCP, TD Tower
SOUTH - lakeviews entirely blocked by Canada Trust Tower , Bank of Nova Scotia Building and Commerce Court

The lowest level of residential condominiums start at about 434 ft :)

The lowest level of residential condominiums start at about 434 ft :)

Do you agree that the view of Lake Ontario will be completely blocked?

Do you agree that the view of Lake Ontario will be completely blocked?

Completely? I don't think so. TD and Commerce Court are over a city block away to the south. FCP is a bit offset from Trump Toronto, so it won't really affect the view to the SW from the SW units of the building. You will definitely be able to see the CN Tower and lake from that vantage point.

I guess to get a comparitive view to the South... if you were looking out of the SW corner of the Scotia Tower, your view would be similar to Trump Toronto's.

Has the buildings design been revised in any way Trumptoronto?

Good question.. how has the height decrease been dealt with, visually?

Good question.. how has the height decrease been dealt with, visually?

I remember him saying that the design hasn't changed at al... So I'm imagining a shorter, pretentious tower.
At its former height it worked, at this shorter one the tower just screams "I'm trying I'm trying but I can't"

Good question.. how has the height decrease been dealt with, visually?

I don't think you are going to get the answer you are hoping for. Cut off the top 13 stories and take the funky top to the building and move it down. There you go! That is the new building in a nut shell from an outside appearance.

I remember him saying that the design hasn't changed at al... So I'm imagining a shorter, pretentious tower.
At its former height it worked, at this shorter one the tower just screams "I'm trying I'm trying but I can't"
Am I the only one who thinks it's going to look better at a reduced height? Before it was almost the exact same height as Scotia and First Canadian. It would have made the 3 buildings together look too much like one big chunky monolith.

This building can't possibly look "better" unless it's completely redesigned. That's just my opinion ;)

But yes, it did look stupid being around the same height as our current tallests. It should have stood out more. Now it's just taking up prime real estate where something better and more suitable could be built. Oh well.

This building can't possibly look "better" unless it's completely redesigned. That's just my opinion ;)

But yes, it did look stupid being around the same height as our current tallests. It should have stood out more. Now it's just taking up prime real estate where something better and more suitable could be built. Oh well.

"Taking up prime real estate"? Come on! This is a top-notch project! It's not like they threw Olympic Spirit down in that location. This tower will look good.

Now it's just taking up prime real estate where something better and more suitable could be built. Oh well.

Just curious, who thinks the Ritz wishes they had this piece of property back instead of their new development site?

Just curious, who thinks the Ritz wishes they had this piece of property back instead of their new development site?

doubt it - their current site offers better views, closer to cutural facilities while still being directly connected to the financial core (via our underground walkway system)

where are you from intheknow?

^^ I get that but the Trump building will be connected to the cultural areas via the PATH system. Do you think the view from the location is the real true reason Ritz left this building site or was it related to 911 issues and the economy as TrumpToronto suggested?

This is why I have been asking all of "view" questions. I am trying to determine if view alone is the reason why some of the "other" properties have been selling their residences faster than Trump. I believe this to be the case rather than people not liking Donald Trump as others have posted.

"Taking up prime real estate"? Come on! This is a top-notch project! It's not like they threw Olympic Spirit down in that location. This tower will look good.
I think something mixed should have been made. Residential/commercial/hotel. I really hate the design. It's nasty. Plus it's got his name on it. Ick.

real true reason Ritz left this building site or was it related to 911 issues and the economy as TrumpToronto suggested?


I thought they departed when one of the development team members (pretty sure the moneyman) was charge with fraud in the US.

Has the buildings design been revised in any way Trumptoronto?

It has. But visually, it looks almost identical. Unless you compared renderings side-by-side, you wouldn't really notice the difference. From a rough NW-view rendering I have, it just has a little bit less of the stair-step look to it towards the top.

I thought they departed when one of the development team members (pretty sure the moneyman) was charge with fraud in the US.

Yes. That was one of the issues as well. He is not a part of the current development team that took the project over.

From a rough NW-view rendering I have, it just has a little bit less of the stair-step look to it towards the top.

Care to show it to us?

When are the Representatives going to be announcing the construction time fame, to the VIP members.

When are the Representatives going to be announcing the construction time fame, to the VIP members.

They already have and I gave you the dates. Remember?

:banana: Thanks.

I get that but the Trump building will be connected to the cultural areas via the PATH system. Do you think the view from the location is the real true reason Ritz left this building site or was it related to 911 issues and the economy as TrumpToronto suggested?

This is why I have been asking all of "view" questions. I am trying to determine if view alone is the reason why some of the "other" properties have been selling their residences faster than Trump. I believe this to be the case rather than people not liking Donald Trump as others have posted.

A high end hotel/condo tower was a new concept that has taken a long time to be accepted by the wealthy in Toronto. TTT was pioneering a new concept and the second problem was the location in the downtown financial core. People work on Bay St near King, so they had to be convinced that living there would be a good and prestigious thing to do. The well-to-do can live in a mansion in Rosedale or Forest Hill both located very close to downtown.

Had the building been located in Bloor/Yorkville it would have been built by now because of the upscale location. TTT blazed the trail for the Ritz and the the Shangri-La to be located near the financial core. The building of the opera house has also helped to make the area more prestigious along with the construction of TIFF nearby. If the TTT was just starting sales today it would do well.

^I think you're mainly grasping at straws attempting to reason why Trump has underpreformed eventhough our trumptoronto will no doubt say otherwise (as he probably should)

Trump definitely did not blaze the trail for the condo hotel concept in this city (i.e. skyline,bridgestreet,stinson) and I would say Tridel was the first to truly test the luxury market with 10 Bellair in 2001

Location is obviously a big reason - we all know it, have wonder, and have already examined/discussed thoroughly the what if it was in Yorkville

It doesn't Matter now. Its going to be built.

I'll believe that when there is a crane in the ground. Even then, the stump comes to mind. And the fact that Trump rhymes with stump, well, I won't go there :P

It doesn't Matter now. Its going to be built.

a little stumpier then planned though

Donald Trump, Don Jr., and Ivanka are all confirmed to be in Toronto on Sept 18th for the groundbreaking.

Cool! That'll make one great photo op...

Why the hell is Trump TO so much smaller than Trump Chicago? Trump TO at 90+ stories would be cool....

I'm very tempted to say "Because Trump is a dumb shit."

Why the hell is Trump TO so much smaller than Trump Chicago? Trump TO at 90+ stories would be cool....

The condo competition in Toronto has been much, much more fierce than in Chicago. The Toronto market has seen more sales than any other city in NA in
recent years, so the competition to sell high end suites is tougher here.
Fewer condos go up in Chicago, more people live there... you do the math.

And Trump doesn't have as strong a brand here, for whatever reason.

Donald Trump, Don Jr., and Ivanka are all confirmed to be in Toronto on Sept 18th for the groundbreaking.

good to know - still have time to rent a hotel room and prehaps a lunge or two before the special night

Well, 1 Bloor and Aura at College Park are promising, so I hope they get built!

And Trump doesn't have as strong a brand here, for whatever reason.

Probably because he's misogynistic and evil. :yes:

Seeing as how he is a guy who has been on prime time tv all year and yet still managed to do sweet tweet in the way of promotion of this project, are we to be honoured that he and his two nerdlings are descending upon our fair city? I'm ferclempt with excitement. I can't look at his son without laughing out loud.

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/237090

I guess its 'official'
57 habitable, 59 total.

Yes but what about the height?

Yes but what about the height?

Don't even get me started on the inaccuracies in the article! Seems the reporter didn't check her facts and has confused "storeys" with height.

Current height is the same as reported here a while ago... 57 storeys / 281.88 m / 924.79 feet.

Which to the best of my knowledge is still the tallest residential building in Canada...

what about the application for the additional 2 stories from the city?

and what about scotiabanks objections to the increased number of units in the redesign?

what about the application for the additional 2 stories from the city?

and what about scotiabanks objections to the increased number of units in the redesign?

From what I understand, it has more to do with the labeling of mechanical levels/usable space and its relation to by-laws. I don't know the full details, but to the best of my knowledge I do not think it has any impact on height of the building. If I learn anything different, I'll pass it on...

Scotia has had an objection or two regarding density, traffic and parking issues over the years, but the issues have usually been resolved.

Don't even get me started on the inaccuracies in the article! Seems the reporter didn't check her facts and has confused "storeys" with height.

Current height is the same as reported here a while ago... 57 storeys / 281.88 m / 924.79 feet.

Which to the best of my knowledge is still the tallest residential building in Canada...

Inaccuracies of the article? What about your inaccuacies? I'm just going to come out and say it. Why didn't you just come out and say it was struggling? Why were you trying to hide it?

Inaccuracies of the article? What about your inaccuacies? I'm just going to come out and say it. Why didn't you just come out and say it was struggling? Why were you trying to hide it?

The residences, yes. The hotel, no. The sales for the hotel portion have been phenomenal.

So does that mean the whole project is struggling? I wouldn't say so. I would say it averages out to sales have been reasonably good overall, not great. The real test will be whether construction start spikes residence sales.

P.S. Do you really expect an employee to get on the internet when he is representing the company and say that sales are struggling?

Look. The damn thing is going up, and that is the main thing... like it or not.

Inaccuracies of the article? What about your inaccuacies? I'm just going to come out and say it. Why didn't you just come out and say it was struggling? Why were you trying to hide it?

He is a representative of the company, a sales agent no less, so you have to read the posts in that context. Having said that, I think his contributions have been great. I even remember him saying at one time that things had been going slowly (ie struggling) but that they had picked up. Admittedly he mentioned after the fact that the project had been going slowly but I guess that is understandable. I wish all the major (and smaller) projects would have a representative on here. Maybe they don't think it's worth it? Or it's just not a hospitable environment?

From the Star.............


Stinson puzzled over downsizing

Jul 18, 2007 04:30 AM

The Harry wants to know one thing from The Donald: Why?

Why in a hot market did the Trump International Hotel and Tower seek approval for shrinkage to 57 storeys from 70?

"I don't know why they would downsize it, it's ridiculous," fellow developer Harry Stinson says. "I just don't get it, and it's hard to get a straight answer why."

Rumours have been making the rounds on Bay St. for some time that sales at Trump's tower – with a top price of $19.6 million – are not going well.

Meanwhile, the Toronto-based Stinson, an arch-rival of the flamboyant Trump in the hotel-condo market, says he doesn't buy claims the Trump tower is to be downsized for technical reasons.

Stinson's comments are the latest in an often light-hearted war of words between Stinson and Trump, star of the cancelled NBC reality show "The Apprentice".

The pair have jabbed away at each other in print for several years. "If Donald wants to call me for help, my consulting fee is reasonable," Stinson says.

- Gail Swainson


I don't think their little comedy rival routine is doing them any good in the high end market either. Trump sales have lagged in this particular market for two main reasons...Trump is the inferior brand and has the inferior location.

And the project is tainted by the first attempt of the site, where design was considered so bad, that even the city itself, which normally doesn't get involved in "design" demanded something better. And then there was the criminal element associated with it.

Let's face it, it's a dodgy project from every angle.

If the Midland Group (Talon) were smart, they would have not got involved with Trump in the first place. Maybe from a Russian perspective, the name Trump comes off as a high-end brand...but not in Toronto, where it is more likely to be considered "cheeze" by the target market.

They would have been better off simply marketing the project as an "unknown", and actually saved a lot of money by not paying for Trump branding.




KGB

If the Midland Group (Talon) were smart, they would have not got involved with Trump in the first place.
They would have been better off simply marketing the project as an "unknown", and actually saved a lot of money by not paying for Trump branding.KGB

Maybe a few people know who the Midland Group and Talon are but the vast majority of people do not. There is no way they could command the $1200 a square foot they are getting now without "instant" name recognition like Trump. Keep in mind, when they first started selling this building, the general condo market was going for under $300 a square foot and Talon/Trump was charging double that.

The common misconception on this thread is that this property is just being marketed locally to the people in Toronto. It is not, there are a substantial number of international buyers who have bought only because of the Trump name and what that represents.

I get it that alot of Canadians do not feel the same way about Trump as others do. I can tell you that I don't care what his hair looks like, whether he is brash and arrogant, or whether he comes off as a jerk. I really don't plan to hang out with the guy. My concern is that he builds top of the line quality, 5 star properties, and I can return a profit on my investment. Isn't that what real estate is all about?

Maybe a few people know who the Midland Group and Talon are but the vast majority of people do not.


That was excactly the point I was making...your reply gives me the impression you misunderstood it.



There is no way they could command the $1200 a square foot they are getting now without "instant" name recognition like Trump.

Well, that's simply not true....how many projects with that kind of price do you want me to name where the the general public has no knowledge or "image" of the developer?

A recognizable "name" is but one marketing ploy when trying to conjur up an "image" to the public.

It's the fact that Trump has been the least sucessful "brand" in Toronto's high-end condo market...I'm not saying it doesn't work "at all".



Keep in mind, when they first started selling this building, the general condo market was going for under $300 a square foot and Talon/Trump was charging double that.

Well the "general" or do you mean "average" condo price is still very low...we are talking about the high-end condo market, and at the time, and before that time, there were indeed units in that niche market.

It's a silly arguement anyway, because one would think if you have this supposed jump on the competition, with the superior brand name, you would have an advantage..not a disadvantage. Trump does not have a lot of units to sell in the grand scheme of the Toronto luxury condo market...so why have they been passed over?


The common misconception on this thread is that this property is just being marketed locally to the people in Toronto. It is not, there are a substantial number of international buyers who have bought only because of the Trump name and what that represents.


I think the only misconception, is your assumptions...I'm pretty sure that is common knowledge that Trump was marketed to "international" investors.

And that's another strange marketing strategy from these guys I can't quite understand....why, in a city with such a huge condo market, vastly dominated by local purchasing, would you choose to limit your sales by choosing to sell a product not geared towards the market you have the best chance of selling to? And the kind of people who find the "Trump" name impressive, are not the kind of people who would be likely attracted to Toronto.





I can tell you that I don't care what his hair looks like, whether he is brash and arrogant, or whether he comes off as a jerk. I really don't plan to hang out with the guy. My concern is that he builds top of the line quality, 5 star properties, and I can return a profit on my investment. Isn't that what real estate is all about?


Well, now you are starting contradict yourself....first the "Trump" name has cache...now you don't care about the bad image, just the investment potential of the actual product. And if that's the case, it is clear that Trump is not, and is not likely to be your best bet investment-wise for this kind of product in Toronto. Don't take my word for it...just look at the evidence.

Don't get me wrong...I actually like the project on it's own, despite the competition being better. But I am not looking at it from an investment standpoint, because if I wanted to make money in the luxury real estate market in Toronto, this would be one of the last places I would look....I just like it from the skyscraper perspective...I'm looking forward to it.

As for your mystification over why people "pick" on this building...it's quite simple...in a long-standing bull market that is Toronto condos, things can get a bit mundane, and a little drama is good for a diversion....and the name "TRUMP" has a great big frigging bullseye on it.





KGB

I am just glad its going up period.

I am just glad its going up period.


The bottom line...........me too.




KGB

That was excactly the point I was making...your reply gives me the impression you misunderstood it.KGB

I believe you were the one who said the building would have been better off being marketed as an unknown. How did I misundstand that? In my humble opinion, most people do not buy 5 star properties without name recognition. Yes, they do buy 4 star without it. Maybe Toronto is familiar with Talon but the rest of the world isn't.



Well, that's simply not true....how many projects with that kind of price do you want me to name where the the general public has no knowledge or "image" of the developer?

Name as many as you can that were selling at $600 + per sq. ft in Toronto BEFORE the Trump project was announced 2 years ago.


It's the fact that Trump has been the least sucessful "brand" in Toronto's high-end condo market...I'm not saying it doesn't work "at all".

How many cranes do you see downtown building "5 Star" properties right now? This one starts within 60 days. At 85% sold, you have a strange perspective of what is not working and not well accepted.

Trump does not have a lot of units to sell in the grand scheme of the Toronto luxury condo market...so why have they been passed over?

So you consider a building 85% sold, even before they have put the first shovel in the ground, as being "passed over"?

And the kind of people who find the "Trump" name impressive, are not the kind of people who would be likely attracted to Toronto.

Interesting comment. I believe I am the "kind of people" you are referring to and I was attracted to Toronto because of Trump. But I do appreciate you trying to speak for me and others.

Well, now you are starting contradict yourself....first the "Trump" name has cache...now you don't care about the bad image, just the investment potential of the actual product.

Who avoids buying property at the Ritz or Four Seasons because of the way their CEO styles his hair? Do you really think they have choir boys running Trump's competitors?

For some of us, the "Trump" name conjurs up images of bad hair and Rosie confrontations, for others it stands for guaranteed and consistent 5 star quality which makes for a good investment and a place others would choose to stay at or want to own property in. I guess it's ok though if you believe his hair is what his image and brand is all about.

And if that's the case, it is clear that Trump is not, and is not likely to be your best bet investment-wise for this kind of product in Toronto. Don't take my word for it...just look at the evidence..

You are right. Buying in at $600 where it is now selling at $1200 per square foot was a huge mistake. Is that the evidence you are referring to?

how come so many people here don't want this project to succeed? It is a good looking project that will take away another parking lot. This will be one of Toronto's tallest building. I also don't understand why so many people hate how this building looks and say that it's going to be stumpy. It will NOT be stumpy, it will actually look kind of slim. The land that they are building on is very small and the height of this building is over 900 ft! This building will not be stumpy. This building is a good looking builsing that will make Toronto's skyline look even better than it already is and will ad even more density to an already dense area. Let's just be happy that this will go under construction!

Inaccuracies of the article? What about your inaccuacies? I'm just going to come out and say it. Why didn't you just come out and say it was struggling? Why were you trying to hide it?

Because we're NOT struggling! We're starting construction in September!

Look, I won't even begin to detail the inaccuracies in the article--the building's status vs. the other two properties mentioned (we haven't been "eclipsed"--at 281.88 metres, we're still taller than both by nearly 60 metres!), confusion with Ritz (2001) vs. Trump (2004), and inferred quotes by the writer. The writer was determined to make the focus of her article "slow sales" no matter what was said, nor what facts were presented. I think she honestly believed she was uncovering some big secret (that most of you have known about for a couple of months... the change to 57 stories).

As I've mentioned before here, we're faced with a definite must-complete- building-by date for our purchasers and we intend to fulfull that promise to them. The building must be completed by the end of 2010. It's going to take nearly 3 years for the building to be built--that is a fact we can't change.

And yes, there were technical challenges that we were concerned about. This is building is being built on a 15,000-sq. ft. footprint that narrows to 10-000-sq. ft. at the top. And with the growth from 109 to 147 residences, the speed of elevators and wait-times were a definite concern related to quality of life for the residences.

Yes. Sales did start out slowly the first 3-4 months at the end of 2004. But once the marketing efforts were ramped up and were in the media world-wide, sales took off like a rocket in early 2005.

We focused the majority of our marketing efforts on the hotel condominiums as we knew that the local market would take a while to come around to the residential condominiums (because of the past history with the Ritz, price range and uncertain completion date). Once the hotel condo's began to sell out (in particular the 1BR suites), we realized there was a market for smaller residential suites than what we were offering as well. Which is why when we grew to 70 stories, we added a few floors of smaller suites (6 suites per floor, from about 1300 - 1900 s.f.). And guess what? There are only a couple of those residences left in the current inventory!

The building is now over 70% sold (in units)! At pricing hovering around $1,000 a sq.-ft. (prices no one in Toronto believed were possible 3 years ago on this scale). We proved it could be done despite what we were told by the so-called "experts!"

We've sold over $275-million in real estate in just over 2 1/2 years--that's an almost $9-million a month average (is that really slow?). NOT reservations, not intent to buy... but solid purchaser contracts. Is there another project in Toronto that has acheived that prior to Trump Toronto?

how come so many people here don't want this project to succeed? It is a good looking project that will take away another parking lot. This will be one of Toronto's tallest building. I also don't understand why so many people hate how this building looks and say that it's going to be stumpy. It will NOT be stumpy, it will actually look kind of slim. The land that they are building on is very small and the height of this building is over 900 ft! This building will not be stumpy. This building is a good looking builsing that will make Toronto's skyline look even better than it already is and will ad even more density to an already dense area. Let's just be happy that this will go under construction!

If you can discover that for me... please let me know. Honestly, when we first announced the project three years ago, I couldn't believe all the negativity and pessimism towards the project--from real estate professionals, to the media to some on this board. This building has had more scrutiny than any other project in the city.

I mean really? Is the parking lot on the site preferrable? It's a prime downtown corner parcel, in the heart of the city.

At every corner we've faced obstacles and naysayers and yet, here we are, ready to begin construction in a couple of months from now!

The building is now over 70% sold (in units)! At pricing hovering around $1,000 a sq.-ft.

trumptoronto, not to take anything away from the rest of your post, but I do not agree with the sales data you just posted. Are you looking at old data?

trumptoronto, not to take anything away from the rest of your post, but I do not agree with the sales data you just posted. Are you looking at old data?

Possibly. According to my figures, in the available (pre-construction) inventory for sale, that number is actually closer to 90%; and between $1100 - $1500 per sq. ft.

Possibly. According to my figures, in the available (pre-construction) inventory for sale, that number is actually closer to 90%.

Thanks trumptoronto, at nearly 90% sold, I guess we both stand corrected. This project is a failure :nuts:

how come so many people here don't want this project to succeed?

Just remember, there are plenty of folks out there (including certain real estate professionals), who are very glad that the project is a success. And I would add something I said before, kudos to the Trump Toronto sales team, they have done a very good job with a location that I think is a tough sell for residences.

Can't wait to see the hoarding to go up! :)

Toronto is not the only city to experience a height reduction in one of its tall building developments. Trump's Chicago tower was also lowered and redesigned from 150 storeys (610m) to 96 storeys (415m). "Prior to Sept. 11, we had plans for 150 stories, the tallest building in the world," Trump said in 2003. "What we end up with is a better building, a more practical building." Also at that time the luxury hotel concept was relatively untried in Chicago, the same as in Toronto.

The redesign improved the look of the building from a very heavy bulky and blocky building to a much more slimmer tower. Toronto's tower will be slightly redesigned removing some of the indentations thereby simplifying the look of the tower. Lets see how the final redesign will look.

December 2001 The first version of Trump Tower Chicago:
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/8623/40618391tx7.jpg

I am thankful that that did not get built. I mean the Burj Dubai is not that great looking, but it's definitely better looking than that thing.

:...of this building is over 900 ft! If you can discover that for me... please let me know. Honestly, when we first announced the project three years ago, I couldn't believe all the negativity and pessimism towards the project--from real estate professionals, to the media to some on this board. This building has had more scrutiny than any other project in the city.

I mean really? Is the parking lot on the site preferrable? It's a prime downtown corner parcel, in the heart of the city.

At every corner we've faced obstacles and naysayers and yet, here we are, ready to begin construction in a couple of months from now!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are continuously (and other people as well) talking about 900 ft, thus 181
m, but that isn't real height of this building; the height to the roof top is probably around 232 m.

PS. counting the spire as the real and final height is a nonsence.

Following the same logic the Petronas towers were once proclaimed as tallest in the world
and how it looks funny and surreal (if not immensely stupid) you can see in this picture-diagram.
I guess I don't have to ask you which building looks (and it is !!!) really taller !!! !!! !!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/istrian/RealHeight.jpg

You are continuously (and other people as well) talking about 900 ft, thus 181
m, but that isn't real height of this building; the height to the roof top is probably around 232 m.

And your point is? Does it really bother you that much, that they're quoting the height to the spire, instead of the height to the roof?:bash:

Sorry, but we have two really boring threads repeating each other.
Trump Tower is ugly. No it is not. Trump Tower will never be built. Yes it will.
Donald Trump has ugly hair. It is a stumpy short building. No it is not. They are including the spire in the height.
Big deal. Hopefully at least some of the kvetching will slow down when this tower starts to rise.

I believe you were the one who said the building would have been better off being marketed as an unknown. How did I misundstand that? Maybe Toronto is familiar with Talon but the rest of the world isn't.

You still don't get it...I'm not saying Toronto is familiar with Talon...I'm saying they aren't. The point I was making, is that you are better off marketing it without a "name" at all, than with Trump's name. That's why they had to go outside of Toronto, where I suppose there is a market that actually doesn't find the Trump name cheeze, and is interested in investing in a building with his name rented for it in Toronto.

Not a very big global market for that sort of product obviously, or we would have the thing built already....not still looking at a parking lot with an outdated billboard on it.

But, I suppose the problem here, is the fact that this is one of those "hotel-condo" buildings, so a "name" would be needed for the hotel portion of it, which even though it is a separate condo corporation from the actual residential portion, is still obviously going to be linked to it.

So after the first attempt at the building went sour, with Ritz no longer interested, they came up with Trump I guess. Not a very savy move....along comes similar hotel-condo projects...Ritz, Shangri La, Four Seasons, hazelton...all with much better names, much better locations, a lot more units, and sell like hotcakes...at even higher prices. Ritz is under construction, Hazelton is nearing occupancy, Shangri La sells the first phase of units practically over night and will start construction soon, and Four Seasons is about as good a bet in Toronto as you could get (and with the top penthouses selling out immedietely).




Name as many as you can that were selling at $600 + per sq. ft in Toronto BEFORE the Trump project was announced 2 years ago.

Why do people keep talking like Trump started a trend or something? The reason people didn't start licking up high priced hotel-condos until Ritz, Shangri-La,, Four Seasons, etc, isn't because of Trump, but because there wasn't a product good enough until then...sorry, but Trump really wasn't that enticing.

If you don't believe me, then ask yourself this question...if Trump is/was so good, why didn't people pass on all those other similarily and even higher priced buildings and snap up all the Trump units instead? It is/was on the market at the same time.



How many cranes do you see downtown building "5 Star" properties right now? This one starts within 60 days. At 85% sold, you have a strange perspective of what is not working and not well accepted.

I think we have already covered that. As for luxury condos, what are you talking about....plenty is under construction...and plenty is already constructed.

What's this "5 star" crap you keep spouting...let me let you in on a little secret...there's nothing "5 star" about Trump...not the man, and not the building. If you want to sell a "5 star" development, you have to at least start out with a "5 star" location...and Bay & Adelaide is not a 5 star location...simple as that. Great 5 star location for a law firm...just not for a residence.

Let me tell you a little something about what constitutes "5 star" living in Toronto.

First off, the cream of the crop do not live in apartments...they live in houses...that's what Toronto has...houses. Manhattan does not have houses...they have a few townhouses, and if you have $30 million dollars, you can purchase one of them...otherwise, you live in an apartment. In Toronto, these cream-of-the-crop houses are not downtown...they are midtown...or Bridle Path...or just blow the wad and build yourself a $90 million estate in Caledon or something (seriously, I've seen these places).

These days, luxury condos are indeed coming into favour with the wealthy...they will never be on the same level as houses, but "some" people are warming up to them. But a true "5 star" apartment is never going to be at Bay & Adelaide...it's never going to be in an "investor" building full of renters....and it's not going to be in a building with Donald Trumps face plastered on it.

You want a real 5 star condo-hotel building....check out The Hazelton. Only 18 suites (no more than 20 units is the ultimate high end building...the fewer the better), and a prime Yorkville location....gee, what do you think is better...the corner of Hazelton & Yorkville, or Bay & Adelaide...ha ha ha. Chef Mark McEwan handling the food, YabuPushelberg handling the interiors, former general manager of the Four Seasons managing the building, and service up the ying yang (it has a $2 million 26-seat private screening room for the film festival crowd and even a private-jet concierge).

You can jam on about "5 star" all you want, but in the case of Trump, it's all self-proclaimed...The Hazelton is already called "5 star", but then again, it has the goods to back it up.




Who avoids buying property at the Ritz or Four Seasons because of the way their CEO styles his hair? I guess it's ok though if you believe his hair is what his image and brand is all about.


Well, first of all, nobody seems to be avoiding buying units in THOSE projects. And we don't know what their hair looks like, because they aren't boorish, infomercial media sluts.

I never said anything about Trumps hair...it's the least of his image problems.



You are right. Buying in at $600 where it is now selling at $1200 per square foot was a huge mistake.


Well, seeing as you haven't actually made a penny, let's hold off on counting the profits for the moment.

If you are buying for investment purposes, then tieing up your money for what...six years...is hardly an astute real estate venture in Toronto. By the time you actually take possession of that unit and sell it, I could have made you a lot more money already, let alone waiting for the next three years until it's built and you can re-sell it.

Sorry dude...getting into the Toronto real estate market by following Donald Trump's name here was not the most brilliant move you could have made.




KGB

Does it even matter anymore. There are many things I would like to change in my past. However, you can't go back you can only go forward.
Who cares if it took the Trump people over two year to sell there building.

All the matters is it is going to start construction in September.

Sorry, but we have two really boring threads repeating each other.


Probably could get rid of this thread since TrumpToronto and Intheknow are obviously sitting and chatting in the same room.

:-)

Probably could get rid of this thread since TrumpToronto and Intheknow are obviously sitting and chatting in the same room.

:-)

If you want to think I am affiliated with trumptoronto, that is your perogative. My personal opinion of him is this. I think it is great that he provides information to this thread. However, he gives you information in tiny pieces LONG after he knows them and that is what I hope to provide this forum. The cut back of this building to 57 stories was known is late January. When did you all find out about it?

You still don't get it...I'm not saying Toronto is familiar with Talon...I'm saying they aren't. The point I was making, is that you are better off marketing it without a "name" at all, than with Trump's name. That's why they had to go outside of Toronto, where I suppose there is a market that actually doesn't find the Trump name cheeze, and is interested in investing in a building with his name rented for it in Toronto.KGB

5 Star properties are not appealing without a name. That is part of the draw to them. I have bought many of them, have you?

I believe Trump's name is ALSO on the hotel portion of this project isn't it? Tell me why they are 95% sold on hotel units where most all of the purchases were from the local Toronto area?

The slower sales for the residences portion has nothing to do with Trump, it is the location.

Not a very big global market for that sort of product obviously, or we would have the thing built already....not still looking at a parking lot with an outdated billboard on it.

It will start construction in less than 2 months. How many 50 + storey 5 star projects are under construction now? 18 unit projects don't count. Of course they can build them faster.

....along comes similar hotel-condo projects...Ritz, Shangri La, Four Seasons, hazelton...all with much better names, much better locations, a lot more units, and sell like hotcakes...at even higher prices. Ritz is under construction, Hazelton is nearing occupancy, Shangri La sells the first phase of units practically over night and will start construction soon, and Four Seasons is about as good a bet in Toronto as you could get (and with the top penthouses selling out immedietely)..

Here are the facts. The Ritz is priced under Trump for comparable floors in their property. The Four Seasons is priced similarly to Trump right now. The only legitimate 5 star property that is ahead of Trump is the Ritz for getting the project completed. Guess what? None of the properties you mentioned had to sell hotel units like Trump on top of residences.

What's this "5 star" crap you keep spouting...let me let you in on a little secret...there's nothing "5 star" about Trump...not the man, and not the building. If you want to sell a "5 star" development, you have to at least start out with a "5 star" location...and Bay & Adelaide is not a 5 star location...simple as that. Great 5 star location for a law firm...just not for a residence.)

I am guessing you have never stayed at a Trump property before. You get to five stars by the services provided on top of the luxury. That is also how you get to the "average" rate of around $600 - $750 per night which the Trump hotel will command when finished.


Let me tell you a little something about what constitutes "5 star" living in Toronto. First off, the cream of the crop do not live in apartments...they live in houses...that's what Toronto has...houses. Manhattan does not have houses...they have a few townhouses, and if you have $30 million dollars, you can purchase one of them...otherwise, you live in an apartment.

Thank you for educating me about 5 star living. What you don't understand is that people who buy a residence in the Trump tower will still have those other residences


If you are buying for investment purposes, then tieing up your money for what...six years...is hardly an astute real estate venture in Toronto. By the time you actually take possession of that unit and sell it, I could have made you a lot more money already, let alone waiting for the next three years until it's built and you can re-sell it.

Your comments tell me that you really have no clue what your talking about. To buy a residence, you only put down 20% and have a year to pay it. With that 20% down, I have earned at 5X return in a year with continued upside until completion. Show me any other investment with that kind of potential and I will buy you dinner.

Sorry dude...getting into the Toronto real estate market by following Donald Trump's name here was not the most brilliant move you could have made.

KGB, we get that you hate Donald Trump. We got it the first time, the second time, and the third time. I honestly don't understand why you frequent this thread when you hate Trump and this building so much.

Your comments tell me that you really have no clue what your talking about. To buy a residence, you only put down 20% and have a year to pay it. With that 20% down, I have earned at 5X return in a year with continued upside until completion. Show me any other investment with that kind of potential and I will buy you dinner.


how can you have possibly earned 5X return on money sitting in some broker's trust account

and if you want to make tons of money in Toronto real estate, the last place to look at is the condo market where supply is steadily being increased. I'd be very surprised even if the commercial tax rate issue has been resolved huge re-sale demand for 5 star luxury, income generating, closets!

KGB, you seem to have the answer/rebuttal to everything, as long as it's critical of Trump or Trump Toronto.

You keep talking about Trump the person, not Trump the developer. He is known and respected world-wide for what he does primarily... develop top-of-the-line properties. All of his bravado would mean nothing if he wasn't at least very good at it.

You can be critical of the man all you want. But the fact is Trump International Hotel & Tower, One Central Park West had been (until this year) a Mobil five-star property. My guess is that the room renovations they did and the construction associated with that last year may have affected that. The bottom-line, the man and his company know how to run a five-star property.

And to this date, there are still no five-star hotel properties in Toronto--that includes the existing Four Seasons at four-stars. Location has NOTHING to do with five-star hotel status.

The Hazelton is a great property. I agree. But it's got just 18 units. It's a small intimate property--who wouldn't want to live there? But you can't really compare it to the other buildings mentioned. It's not a high-rise.

Four Seasons, Shangri-La, Ritz-Carlton, etc... they all are strong brand names through-out the world. They are all great companies. And also much larger than the Trump Orgranization and with a larger database of previous purchasers in other cities to market to. Yet, all of these hotel brands need sales from around the world to make these Toronto projects viable. They certainly aren't selling all of their units locally. They are no different.

And in fact, the majority of sales for Shangri-La occurred out-of-market (Asia and Vancouver) before units were even offerred for sale in Toronto. And I know the Ritz has done events/marketing in Hong Kong as well.

Yes. The Ritz is under construction already. But that's NOT because of sales. It's because Ritz-Carlton wanted to build the hotel portion of the building and are partners in the project. It was going to happen no matter what. And if they are selling like hot-cakes, with just what 135 units, in a year's time, how come they are not sold out already? From what I've heard internally, they are a little over half-way there.

"Why do people keep talking like Trump started a trend or something? The reason people didn't start licking up high priced hotel-condos until Ritz, Shangri-La,, Four Seasons, etc, isn't because of Trump, but because there wasn't a product good enough until then...sorry, but Trump really wasn't that enticing."

Trump Toronto is the only property in Toronto selling hotel condominiums and in fact are over 90% sold out of current inventory. That's over 200 hotel units sold. So obviously someone found it enticing. And of course, a good portion of those units were marketed to and sold by business travelers throughout the world. It's a great deal if you come to Toronto for business--you can use the suite, earn revenue on it when away and of course, the real estate appreciation if/when you decide to sell.

KGB, we told flat-out by real estate professionals in Toronto three years ago that we would never succeed at selling at $1,000-a sq. ft., that the Toronto market wasn't ready for those prices. Well, we did. And we're starting construction in September.

"If you are buying for investment purposes, then tieing up your money for what...six years...is hardly an astute real estate venture in Toronto. By the time you actually take possession of that unit and sell it, I could have made you a lot more money already, let alone waiting for the next three years until it's built and you can re-sell it."

So, let's see, if you were one of the early purchasers at $650-a sq. ft. and a comparable suite is selling for twice that now, two years later. You've only tied up 20% of the purchase price for the deposit. And other luxury properties are coming onto the market at that higher price (proving that the market can absorb it)... Yes, it's real estate, there is risk and it's all speculative, but how exactly is that a bad investment three years from now if you can sell it for at least double your initial investment?

TrumpToronto and IntheKnow07, please don't waste your time and energy getting into a pissing match with with KGB. You can't win. He's like the Energizer Bunny, he just keeps going and going and going. He wins by volume. I find it's better to think of KGB as forum entertainment. He's not right all that often, but it's the way he believes that he is that makes reading his posts so darn enjoyable. But please, keep the updates coming - which is what most of us viewing these forums are really here for.

He gets his point across clearly, and believes very strongly in what he posts. A thread will never die as long as KGB is on the offense, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's not as if his position on certain topics don't make logical sense--because they clearly do. You can't dismiss a forumer's credibility when what they are saying makes logical sense.

Ya so, let's not get this topic closed shall we?

Wow.. the swoosh of the crown even resembles the whirlpool of trump's hair...

...First off, the cream of the crop do not live in apartments...they live in houses...that's what Toronto has...houses. Manhattan does not have houses...they have a few townhouses, and if you have $30 million dollars, you can purchase one of them...otherwise, you live in an apartment. In Toronto, these cream-of-the-crop houses are not downtown...they are midtown...or Bridle Path...or just blow the wad and build yourself a $90 million estate in Caledon or something (seriously, I've seen these places).

These days, luxury condos are indeed coming into favour with the wealthy...they will never be on the same level as houses, but "some" people are warming up to them...
KGB

I agree with KGB. Traditionally the wealthy in Toronto have preferred houses to apartments and because Toronto is not Manhattan there are houses suitable for the wealthy located close to downtown. Ted Rogers lives in Forest Hill. Luxury condos are coming into increasing favour with the wealthy especially around Yorkville but the popular business location of Bay Street needed more convincing. That has been reflected in the sales performance of the residential portion of TTT over the last couple of years.

It has taken a while to get to the close to 90% level in sales and that is better than the current sales level for the already under construction Trump Tower in Chicago.

I agree with KGB. Traditionally the wealthy in Toronto have preferred houses to apartments and because Toronto is not Manhattan there are houses suitable for the wealthy located close to downtown. Ted Rogers lives in Forest Hill. Luxury condos are coming into increasing favour with the wealthy especially around Yorkville but the popular business location of Bay Street needed more convincing. That has been reflected in the sales performance of the residential portion of TTT over the last couple of years. .

Let me attempt to clarify the target market for the residences. They are not attempting to market it to the blue hairs of Toronto as they will probably choose somewhere else. This property, (with its location and the smaller size residences), are being marketed primarily to the well heeled business executive who wants a place of their own while staying in Toronto. Most likely, it will be the CBD that they want to be near.

The hotel portion is also not being marketed as a place for wedding receptions and such. They are catering primarily to the business traveler. Once again, if the local Toronto market wants a great wedding reception and hotel rooms for their guests, they will probably go elsewhere.

I understand the criticism of the "location" due to the other large buildings by it, but you are not considering the completely different target market each of the 5 star properties are targeting. Yes, the Ritz and Four Seasons also cater to the business traveler but it will not be their sole focus as it is with Trump. That is where you will see the big gap in services offered by the Trump property versus the others.

It has taken a while to get to the close to 90% level in sales and that is better than the current sales level for the already under construction Trump Tower in Chicago.

I haven't checked in a little while but the pricing in Toronto is already close to Chicago and construction has not started here. Of course, they have a tremendous amount of units to sell in Chicago so that is a factor.

This article is a couple of months old and I find it interesting to compare TTT with the much bigger TTC. The Hotel will open in December and the building will be still under construction with topping out occuring well into 2008.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-070522trump,0,1515210.story?coll=chi-bizfront-hed

Family Trump gears up to pitch International Hotel & Tower
By Susan Diesenhouse
Tribune staff reporter

May 22, 2007, 5:03 PM CDT

Boosting sales of the $850 million Trump International Hotel & Tower will be a family effort on Thursday morning. Appearing at the downtown construction site will be Donald Trump -- both senior and junior -- Ivanka and Eric, all of whom work on the project.

Ostensibly, the Trumps will be here to update the media on the progress of sales and mark construction reaching the 29th floor, topping off the hotel portion of the 92-story tower on the banks of the Chicago River. The hotel is slated to open in December.

The Skidmore Ownings & Merrill-designed glass-clad development also will include residential condominiums, retail, parking and outdoor park space.

But another likely reason for the Trumps' visit is to generate more sales for the project. Usually, a developer makes its profit on the last 25 percent of unit sales.

On that point, Trump still has quite a way to go. So far, the developer has sold 223 of its 339 hotel condominiums priced at an average $1,325 square foot and 378 of its 486 residential condominiums at an average price of $1093 square foot, according to Tere Proctor, Trumps' sales director in Chicago.

Sales progress has been slow. In January, Trump had sold 220 hotel units and 373 residential condominiums, according to Proctor at the time.

In one strategic shift, Trump has decided to add more hotel and residential condominiums by dividing up some larger three-bedroom units, Proctor said. "This better meets the needs of our buyers for whom this is a second or third home," she explained.

Trump Toronto begins construction in September. I happy this project is moving forward.

Let just be happy everyone.

The building itself looks great at that corner. However I think it would have been more successful as some some sort of office or hotel/office development since its crazy to pay such money for a year round residence in the financial core. All in all Trump should have chosen a Yorkville location close to good transit if he wanted this particular kind of development to be successful.

Happy to hear it at least starts in the fall though:banana:

All in all Trump should have chosen a Yorkville location close to good transit if he wanted this particular kind of development to be successful.

Yeah, It has no chance of doing well. Have they even sold 1 unit yet?

I think he just meant MORE successful. A hotel/office project would have suited it better.

5 Star properties are not appealing without a name. That is part of the draw to them.

Well, "5 star" hotels generally MAKE a name for themselves...not the other way around. This hotel hasn't even started contruction, so any "rating" you give it is well...somebody's biased opinion...not a fact. This is Donald Trump...the king of self-promotion...what else would he call anything with his name on it...even if it doesn't exist yet. Let's just say I'm not one of those people that associate the Trump brand with "5 star"...unless it's a 10-star rating system.

Besides, my idea of a "5-star" hotel, is one that is owned and operated by that hotel establishment...not one that's owned and operated by a condo corporation, made up of non-hotel people. Sorry, but your and my idea of "5-star" are not the same.



Here are the facts.

No...the facts are that they are all selling more, in a shorter period of time. Trumps being lapped by the competition, and he's still pretending he's in the lead. If Trump were as good as them, it would have been built by now. Even Trump's excuses for it are wrong. The only condo building that has taken longer to get up, is our own little local-yokal huckster...The Harry!! LOL



Your comments tell me that you really have no clue what your talking about. To buy a residence, you only put down 20% and have a year to pay it.

Uh...yea...I'm familiar with how it works. I've already taken my test at OREA, so I doubt there's anything you could enlighten me on in the real estate world.

By the time Trump ever gets built, registered, and you close on your unit, I have a feeling that the glut of these kinds of units that is rumoured may very well be one of the few that may have some merit. And if that is true, the Trump building will suffer in both re-sale, and renting rooms compared to it's competition....just like it does in pre-construction selling. Of course, I could be proven wrong on that one....time will tell.

Look, if you bought a unit (was it hotel room or residential unit? ) because you REALLY want to own in a Trump building, then you made the right move...cause people should buy what they really want and truly like. If you bought it simply because you thought it was the best real estate deal in Toronto, then I'm afraid you could have done better.




I have earned at 5X return in a year with continued upside until completion.

You don't "earn" anything in real estate until you have sold it. You don't even own it yet. Hopefully you, and everyone else who bought into it profit from it eventually.

But don't try and tell me you've stumbled across the real estate deal of the century or something...cause it isn't. Conversely, I'm not saying it's the worst one either.


Show me any other investment with that kind of potential and I will buy you dinner.

Please try and book a table at Eigensinn now...I'd love to eat there sometime in October.


I honestly don't understand why you frequent this thread when you hate Trump and this building so much.

Except I don't "hate" Doanald Trump...and I don't hate the building...in fact I like the building, and I'm wanting it built as much as anyone. If we are talking about the realities of marketing real estate, then I have a different opinion.




KGB

KGB, you seem to have the answer/rebuttal to everything, as long as it's critical of Trump or Trump Toronto.


At least my opinions are my own. You're an employee, so your opinion is pretty much pre-ordained...isn't it? It's not like you're here to give us some kind of unbiased opinion. So please...wag that finger somewhere else will ya.



You keep talking about Trump the person, not Trump the developer. He is known and respected world-wide for what he does primarily... develop top-of-the-line properties.

Yea, except he isn't the developer...the developer licensed his name. Correct me if I'm wrong...people don't seem to be clear on this point...and that itself smells.

I'll agree that he's very well known...but respected depends on who you ask...he's also a major joke by probably even more people.



And to this date, there are still no five-star hotel properties in Toronto


And sigh...still no Trump either.

Can someone please start a petition to remove the term "5-star" from the english vocabulary.



The Hazelton is a great property. I agree. But you can't really compare it to the other buildings mentioned. It's not a high-rise.

Why can't I compare it...it's better...period. Why does the size disqualify it?



Four Seasons, Shangri-La, Ritz-Carlton, etc... they all are strong brand names through-out the world. They are all great companies. And also much larger than the Trump Orgranization and with a larger database of previous purchasers in other cities to market to. Yet, all of these hotel brands need sales from around the world to make these Toronto projects viable. They certainly aren't selling all of their units locally. They are no different.


But wait...I thought Trump was the greatest brand ever invented? I'm sure Mr Trump would agree. And what do you mean they are no different? ...they are quite different...they aren't taking forever to market their properties, and aren't having to downsize their buildings in the process....and don't have a boorish reality-show clown as a spokesman.




Yes. The Ritz is under construction already. But that's NOT because of sales. It's because Ritz-Carlton wanted to build the hotel portion of the building and are partners in the project.


Right...and that's how you build a "5-star" hotel....with a great hotel name that can actually build it. Ritz-Carlton didn't build their popularity on reality tv shows. They know how to get the cream in the cupcake.




And if they are selling like hot-cakes, with just what 135 units, in a year's time, how come they are not sold out already?

Well, let's just say they are doing a hell of a lot better in less than a year, with tons of competition from other quality product, than Trump has done all this time, when they had it all to themselves.




KGB, we told flat-out by real estate professionals in Toronto three years ago that we would never succeed at selling at $1,000-a sq. ft., that the Toronto market wasn't ready for those prices. Well, we did. And we're starting construction in September.


Yea, well the next time a real estate 'professional" tells you they have a crystal ball...run. And you make it sound like Trump "created" that market, when the reality is, that market came along...and Trump isn't the only one selling in that price range. But that is a very "Trump" way to spin it...isn't it?



but how exactly is that a bad investment three years from now if you can sell it for at least double your initial investment?


I never said it was a "bad" investment. I just said it wasn't the "best" one in Toronto. I'm sure nothing terrible will happen to the luxury condo market in Toronto, and early investors will make a very nice equity pop.

You seem to be confusing the "real estate talk" with my own personal taste in terms of buying into anything with the "Trump" label on it...the whole thing just leaves a very bad taste in my mouth...I don't care how successful it is...i have my standards, and sometimes it comes ahead of money.




KGB

Trumptoronto and Intheknow thank you for your updates.

we like to be the first to know what happens.

Thanks again so much!!

You seem to be confusing the "real estate talk" with my own personal taste in terms of buying into anything with the "Trump" label on it...the whole thing just leaves a very bad taste in my mouth...I don't care how successful it is...i have my standards, and sometimes it comes ahead of money.

I've already taken my test at OREA, so I doubt there's anything you could enlighten me on in the real estate world.

This is all good to know, KGB. When I decide to sell, I know a "rookie" real estate agent that won't get my business. Besides, I wouldn't want you to have to compromise your high standards with something that leaves a "bad taste in your mouth".

Did they teach you about "networking" in your real estate class or were you absent that day?

rookie!! (hehehe)

lol!

When I decide to sell, I know a "rookie" real estate agent that won't get my business.

Who said I was a real estate agent? (or salesperson to be more accurate...very few people selling real estate are agents). I'm in the geothermal business...real estate is just a hobby....so far.




Did they teach you about "networking" in your real estate class or were you absent that day?

If you think that means I should kiss your ass, while getting lectured on behavior from people like you....then I'm glad I payed more attention to the "ethics" portion of the classes.


Anyway...not really interested in turning this into a schoolyard insult fest...those are my feelings about the Trump building. My comments were more concerned with the condos than the hotel portion. In the grand scheme of things, I like the fact that the project is being built...I even like where it's being built from a skyline perspective (I'm a big fan of MINT intensification).

As someone who's purchased in the project, I don't imagine you appreciate those comments...I can't help that. And I can't imagine it means much to you anyway....so let's not get all worked up about it.





ah, the entertainer is back. honestly, trumptoronto and intheknow07, don't bother responding to him. i told you, you can't win. he can outpost you guys anyday. these forums have become his personal blog.

you should know that the majority of people who visit these forums appreciate your updates. we may not post everytime we visit but we're here. and we're the same people who skip over every post KGB deems necessary. right or wrong, his pissing matches are just tiresome.


Anybody have a clue who this wanker is? I've never heard of him before...or is he just some cloaked banned forumer?



KGB

More reincarnations in the Toronto forums than you can shake a stick at.... so it is hard to keep track of who was who...:lol:

I heard that units in there will cost 1.8 billion dollars, which is, according to Taller Better, not unheard of, as a beach house was recently sold for 1/100th of that price. :eek:

I heard that units in there will cost 1.8 billion dollars, which is, according to Taller Better, not unheard of, as a beach house was recently sold for 1/100th of that price. :eek:

vid, I'm willing to sell you the unit I'm living in for the low low price of 1 billion dollars... that is a clear savings of 8 million dollars. Now you can't ask for better than that, can you?
Cash, however. No cheques.

Because we're NOT struggling! We're starting construction in September!

Look, I won't even begin to detail the inaccuracies in the article--the building's status vs. the other two properties mentioned (we haven't been "eclipsed"--at 281.88 metres, we're still taller than both by nearly 60 metres!), confusion with Ritz (2001) vs. Trump (2004), and inferred quotes by the writer. The writer was determined to make the focus of her article "slow sales" no matter what was said, nor what facts were presented. I think she honestly believed she was uncovering some big secret (that most of you have known about for a couple of months... the change to 57 stories).

As I've mentioned before here, we're faced with a definite must-complete- building-by date for our purchasers and we intend to fulfull that promise to them. The building must be completed by the end of 2010. It's going to take nearly 3 years for the building to be built--that is a fact we can't change.

And yes, there were technical challenges that we were concerned about. This is building is being built on a 15,000-sq. ft. footprint that narrows to 10-000-sq. ft. at the top. And with the growth from 109 to 147 residences, the speed of elevators and wait-times were a definite concern related to quality of life for the residences.

Yes. Sales did start out slowly the first 3-4 months at the end of 2004. But once the marketing efforts were ramped up and were in the media world-wide, sales took off like a rocket in early 2005.

We focused the majority of our marketing efforts on the hotel condominiums as we knew that the local market would take a while to come around to the residential condominiums (because of the past history with the Ritz, price range and uncertain completion date). Once the hotel condo's began to sell out (in particular the 1BR suites), we realized there was a market for smaller residential suites than what we were offering as well. Which is why when we grew to 70 stories, we added a few floors of smaller suites (6 suites per floor, from about 1300 - 1900 s.f.). And guess what? There are only a couple of those residences left in the current inventory!

The building is now over 70% sold (in units)! At pricing hovering around $1,000 a sq.-ft. (prices no one in Toronto believed were possible 3 years ago on this scale). We proved it could be done despite what we were told by the so-called "experts!"

We've sold over $275-million in real estate in just over 2 1/2 years--that's an almost $9-million a month average (is that really slow?). NOT reservations, not intent to buy... but solid purchaser contracts. Is there another project in Toronto that has acheived that prior to Trump Toronto?


Excellent update, glad to see things are moving forward.

vid, I'm willing to sell you the unit I'm living in for the low low price of 1 billion dollars... that is a clear savings of 8 million dollars. Now you can't ask for better than that, can you?
Cash, however. No cheques.

Actually it's a savings of $800 million! Seriously though, I wouldn't pay more than 7 or 8 hundred mill for the place. I guess I'm stingy.

i'm not going to get into with you, KGB. this is your blog, buddy. i'm not a banned forumer, though.

"wanker"? very funny. entertaining to the last.

have a great day.

I dont understand the point of berating a forumer because he is connected to a project you dont like or a person you dont like.

Live and let live. (it's a good motto, and why not quit while your ahead :))

No point pissing them off when they bring valuable information to the forum.

vid, I'm willing to sell you the unit I'm living in for the low low price of 1 billion dollars... that is a clear savings of 8 million dollars. Now you can't ask for better than that, can you?
Cash, however. No cheques.

Be careful, VID enjoys "milking" typos :lol:

TrumpToronto and IntheKnow07, please don't waste your time and energy getting into a pissing match with with KGB. You can't win. He's like the Energizer Bunny, he just keeps going and going and going. He wins by volume.

Not true. I have taken that piss-ass bitter old bitch down numerous times.
And I'm damn proud of it.

I dont understand the point of berating a forumer because he is connected to a project you dont like or a person you dont like.

I'm not quite sure who that is directed at...but if it's me, then I never berated anyone...I simply gave opinions about the marketing of a particular building...it had nothing personal attached to it (except for Mr Trump).

If other people want to take it personally, and start something personal, that's not my problem. I understand people like trumptoronto and Intheknow07 have a vested interest, and I can understand their motivations to challenge critisisms.

As for completely useless contributors like bigcityboy and Dingo... people who join the thread with NO other purpose than unsolicited, unsubstantiated and basically childish personal insults to other forumers, well...what do you do?




KGB

Be careful, VID enjoys "milking" typos :lol:

I'll bet he does, the naughty boy!! ;)

I dont understand the point of berating a forumer because he is connected to a project you dont like or a person you dont like.

Live and let live. (it's a good motto, and why not quit while your ahead :))

No point pissing them off when they bring valuable information to the forum.

This stands for people like KGB who aren't connected to a project. I've learnt a heck of a lot about the city from his posts and fell this place wouldn't be the same without his contributions.

People often take things the wrong way on a message board as they never would in person. I am definitely guilty of this too. So no, I don't have an easily implementable solution given we are dealing with human beings.

Edited for a plethora of spelling errors.

This stands for people like KGB who aren't connected to a project. I've learnt a heck of a lot about the city from his posts and fell this place wouldn't be the same without his contributions.

People often take things the wrong way on a message board as they never would in person. I am definitely guilty of this too. So no, I don't have an easily implementable solution given we are dealing with human beings.

Edited for a plethora of spelling errors.

I agree, no matter how much TrumpToronto says the project isn't struggling, compared to other projects geared towards the same market--it is! I have no idea why anyone would actually argue that when the numbers speak for themselves.

I agree, no matter how much TrumpToronto says the project isn't struggling, compared to other projects geared towards the same market--it is! I have no idea why anyone would actually argue that when the numbers speak for themselves.

True enough, but those "other projects" were at least somewhat inspired by Trump to enter the Toronto market based on Trump Development's earlier "successes". And yes the Trump Development "invented" or "pioneered" the whole class of Hotel Residences within the Toronto market at least within this upscale niche. Selling a quarter of a billion dollars is not bad especially when your doing something that has not been proven, and in a location that is less than desireable.

True enough, but those "other projects" were at least somewhat inspired by Trump to enter the Toronto market based on Trump Development's earlier "successes".

I don't possibly see how considering Trump is still a parking lot while the others are already in the ground - much more likely successfully completed projects such as 10 Belliar ($10 million penthouse and three $5 million sub-penthouse sold around 2002 ) was their inspiration


And yes the Trump Development "invented" or "pioneered" the whole class of Hotel Residences within the Toronto market at least within this upscale niche.

Trump is the first to go for the arbitrary 5 star rating but that hardly means it is the first to build hotel residences at this degree of luxury


Obviously the marketing of this being at a level of luxury never before seen in Toronto must be working if so many knowledgable skyscraper fans have fallen for it therefore it the name must be the root of the poor sales

September can't come soon enough.

I don't possibly see how considering Trump is still a parking lot while the others are already in the ground - much more likely successfully completed projects such as 10 Belliar ($10 million penthouse and three $5 million sub-penthouse sold around 2002 ) was their inspiration

Trump is the first to go for the arbitrary 5 star rating but that hardly means it is the first to build hotel residences at this degree of luxury

Trump was the first to market a building on "this scale". It still is a 350-400 Million dollar Development. Belliar is a far cry from this, and as stated previously Ritz was going forward with their Hotel Operations in Toronto irregardless of sales. Two years ago on UrbanToronto/ SSP I stated that it (Ritz) would likely break ground before the other hotel brands.


Obviously the marketing of this being at a level of luxury never before seen in Toronto must be working if so many knowledgable skyscraper fans have fallen for it therefore it the name must be the root of the poor sales


valantino, why would you say that 275 Million dollars sold of real estate sold is a poor performance? I dont know why everyone keeps saying this is a poor performance. At least back up this poor performance with sales numbers from other projects. Trump is still the largest of the Hotel developments currently underway in Toronto.

September can't come soon enough.

Just over a month to go

I'm just happy that with Trump our downtown core will get even more denser!!!!

Trump was the first to market a building on "this scale". It still is a 350-400 Million dollar Development. Belliar is a far cry from this, and as stated previously Ritz was going forward with their Hotel Operations in Toronto irregardless of sales. Two years ago on UrbanToronto/ SSP I stated that it (Ritz) would likely break ground before the other hotel brands.

Really, at this point, I couldn't care less if you believe some underperforming development created this luxury boom everyone is lining up to be a part of instead of the two dominant chains building towers. - one with past success in a doomed project and the other taking advantage of a steaming hot Yorkville market as well as defending its home turf

p.s. I think you're putting way too much emphasis on scale - bigger means bigger marketing budget


valantino, why would you say that 275 Million dollars sold of real estate sold is a poor performance? I dont know why everyone keeps saying this is a poor performance. At least back up this poor performance with sales numbers from other projects.

275 million now, eh?

anywho ..

Where are you? Who Who, Who Who

at least a half dozen projects valued in the hundreds of millions each have sold the majority of their suites in a matter of weeks

Trump is still the largest of the Hotel developments currently underway in Toronto.

I do believe Shangri-la is now larger, in dollars, than Stumpy Trumpy

but you still haven't given me numbers that support your claim Trump is a poor performer against its immediate competition.

I dont think its a valid point. ( and its a point that you and KGB have stated over and over again :|)

I'm pretty sure KGB will dig up some numbers for me to back up his claim. Until then I will give credit where credit is due.

those "other projects" were at least somewhat inspired by Trump to enter the Toronto market based on Trump Development's earlier "successes".

I don't think they were inspired by Trump at all...I think Toronto's very hot real estate market attracted a lot of people who wanted to get in on it. Remember, Ritz was planning on getting into the Toronto market at that site before Trump was heard of, but passed because of dodgy press associated with it. Obviously they re-grouped to search for a better site/developer, and found it...and that's why they are under construction, and their former location's reincarnation isn't.



And yes the Trump Development "invented" or "pioneered" the whole class of Hotel Residences within the Toronto market at least within this upscale niche.

cough ** Windsor Arms** cough




but you still haven't given me numbers that support your claim Trump is a poor performer against its immediate competition.

I dont think its a valid point. ( and its a point that you and KGB have stated over and over again )

I'm pretty sure KGB will dig up some numbers for me to back up his claim. Until then I will give credit where credit is due.


Well, this seems to be an issue of differing perspectives. If you want me to be impressed with someone selling $275 million dollars worth of real estate...fine, I will be. In the general Toronto condo market, and given the amount of time they have been on the market, i'd say they have not done well compared to many other developers who have sold much more than that over the same period of time.

But, this is a little different, as Trump was selling to a much smaller segment of the market. But it's not like there was "no" market for condos priced at $700,000 to millions...cause there were plenty even back when Trump first started selling (and even before that). It's just that one again, Trump is not going to be people's first choice a lot of the time.

BUT...they have not performed as well against the other 8 or so other super-expensive projects that are also on the market. First, they had a huge head start on the competition, and that wasn't enough to get enough sales to begin construction...and once the competition was available, their individual and combined sales have been better...and this is because the majority of people will feel the same way I do...which is that given a choice, I would rather buy one of the others.

I also think that condominium hotel rooms are just not a product that has really been popular because people associate great hotels with great hotel companies....the ones that can build them because they are in the hotel business...not hotels that need to sell all the hotel rooms to speculators first, and then try to manage it like it was a company-owned-run buisness.

I hope that once it's built, the hotel does extremely well, and does the city proud...and makes money for the speculators.

And I'm not putting all the blame on the project taking so long on Trump....he's just taking a fee for licensing his name out. The real blame is on the actual developer, who is not very experienced, for making so many bad moves.




I'm just happy that with Trump our downtown core will get even more denser!!!!

Despite my feelings about the details on sales/marketing, at the end of the day, I will be just as happy as anyone to see this addition the the skyline...to hell with the details!!





KGB

but you still haven't given me numbers that support your claim Trump is a poor performer against its immediate competition.



I'll give you one .. Shangri-la sold a minimum of $116 million worth of property in one day which in this market is becoming routine (and, BTW, Trump is closer to 200 than 275)

I will be just as happy as anyone to see this addition the the skyline


I'd rather see Trump cancelled and something taller, better built in its place. After 2010 would be just the icing on the cake.

^^ Don't worry there is always enough room for a 1000 footer, and wherever it goes it will look great:) :wink2:

I'll give you one .. Shangri-la sold a minimum of $116 million worth of property in one day which in this market is becoming routine (and, BTW, Trump is closer to 200 than 275)

250/310 = 80% of the construction has been financed through sales.

310 Million Dollar Development = 500 Million Building When Complete ( built in profit of 190 Million Dollars??, not bad eh?)

Math geniuses feel free to put your spin on the numbers. The above was my spin.


Here is a trump Toronto new release:
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/03-23-2007/0004552002&EDATE=


TORONTO, March 23 /PRNewswire/ - Toronto's Talon International
Development Inc. announced today that an agreement has been reached with
international bank Raiffeisen Zentralbank osterreich AG (RZB) to arrange
$310-million in construction financing for the developer's five-star Trump
International Hotel & Tower, Toronto.
Construction of Canada's first Trump Tower is scheduled to begin later
this year.
"This is a very exciting time for the entire Trump Toronto team," said
Talon Chairman Alex Shnaider. "Today's announcement represents the
fulfillment of our vision to build the finest hotel and residential
condominiums in the marketplace."
"My partners and I are very pleased to have our financing arrangements
completed and we look forward to developing one of the most luxurious Trump
buildings we have ever built," stated Donald J. Trump. "I look forward to
starting construction on this great project very soon."
Mr. Shnaider believes the universal appeal of the Trump brand and the
Trump Toronto team's global business experience has contributed greatly to
the success of the project - including the ability to attract a leading
multi-national commercial financing partner.
"With over $250-million in pre-construction sales from buyers
world-wide, Trump Toronto is truly an international success story," said
Mr. Shnaider. "I am very pleased that we were able to leverage our
international business interests to secure construction financing with an
exceptional European financial institution like RZB."
Raiffeisen Zentralbank osterreich AG (RZB) is the third largest bank in
Austria and one of the country's leading commercial and investment banks.
RZB's strong involvement in Central and Eastern Europe (CEE), its
exceptional growth and outstanding appeal to customers have made it one of
the top players in the region.
"We are delighted to be involved in the financing of this historic and
dynamic project and are extremely pleased to continue our long-standing
relationship with both Mr. Shnaider and Midland Group," said Karl Sevelda,
Member of the RZB board.
Located in the heart of Toronto's financial and entertainment
districts, the $500-million Trump International Hotel & Tower, Toronto will
be one of the tallest and most luxurious buildings in Canada when
completed.
Remaining hotel condominium suites are currently priced from CAD
$800,000 and residential suites start at CAD $1.8 million.
About the Development
Trump International Hotel & Tower, Toronto, is a joint venture between
Donald J. Trump and Talon International Development Inc. Located at the
southeast corner of Bay and Adelaide, the Tower represents the epitome of
high-end luxury living and features the only five-star hotel condominiums
available for purchase in Toronto. The building was designed by the
Toronto-based firm Zeidler Partnership Architects.
Talon International Development Inc. is comprised of Canadian and
international partners who possess an enviable track record of achievement
in creating, developing and building businesses throughout the world.
Talon's majority shareholder is Midland Resources Holding Limited. Founded
in 1994, Midland is a privately owned trading and investment-holding
organization. The Group has interests in a broad range of industries,
including real estate, steel production and trading and shipping. Midland's
operations are global with offices and agents in 35 countries worldwide.
The Trump Organization specializes in five-star real estate development
and will operate and manage the hotel. The project will be the Trump
Organization's fourth Trump International Hotel & Tower and the first
outside the United States.
Raiffeisen Zentralbank osterreich AG (RZB) is the central institution
of the Austrian Raiffeisen Banking Group, the country's largest banking
group. It is a leading corporate and investment bank in Austria and also
considers Central and Eastern Europe (CEE) as its home market. Via listed
subsidiary Raiffeisen International Bank-Holding AG, it operates one of the
leading banking networks in CEE with subsidiary banks and finance leasing
companies in 16 markets. More than 12 million customers are attended to
through more than 2,800 business outlets. Representative offices in
Lithuania and Moldova complement the group's presence in the region.
RZB is the only Austrian bank with a global network of business units
reaching all important finance centres around the globe. It is also present
in Asia via its branches and representative offices.
Detailed fact sheets and electronic images are available at
www.trumptoronto.ca

200 Million would mean they haven't even sold enough real estate to finance 50% of the building. Somehow I doubt a bank would agree to finance with that type of sales performance.

The bank required 80% of the units sold to get their financing. They backed off enough floors to hit that target which brought them to 57 stories. They had no choice or they would have jeopardized all the previous sold units if they waited to hit 80% of a 70 storey tower.

I don't know where Valantino is getting his data of $200M sold but it is wrong.

Brilliant!

I agree, no matter how much TrumpToronto says the project isn't struggling, compared to other projects geared towards the same market--it is! I have no idea why anyone would actually argue that when the numbers speak for themselves.

What numbers? Other than Shangri-La--which I DO believe the pre-sale numbers--I've not seen truthful sales numbers released for others. The Ritz says one thing publicly, but through my network, I hear much different otherwise. Same as Four Seasons. It's called "Toronto real estate marketing" aka "hype." Don't always believe what you hear...

The facts are, Ritz has just 135 units to sell, Four Seasons has 204--only 339 suites between the two of them. We have more inventory than both of those properties combined at 379 suites to sell.

MikeinTO may have the latest numbers, since he seems to have an inside track, but from what I hear, Ritz has sold about 75-80 of their suites this past year and the Four Seasons about 40 (a good pace!). Reservations are not the same thing as sales! Look, I think it's great that those properties are here. It validates that there IS in fact a five-star luxury marketing in Toronto. But, I don't necessarily believe the sales hype.

At Trump Toronto, we've averaged about $8-9 million a month in firm sales, roughly about 90-suites a year. 90% of the residences we've put on the market have sold--including the two $4.5-million Penthouse Residences. The remaining suites have yet to be offerred for sale (held for post-construction release). 93% of the hotel condo suites we've put on the market have sold. At over $275-million in real estate since September 2004, that is struggling? I'll be happy to take our struggles, thank you.

I'll give you one .. Shangri-la sold a minimum of $116 million worth of property in one day which in this market is becoming routine (and, BTW, Trump is closer to 200 than 275)

Sorry Valantino. But I have the price grid in front of me that shows exactly what suites we've sold and for how much.

Sorry Valantino. But I have the price grid in front of me that shows exactly what suites we've sold and for how much.

Guys, it really is rediculous that you are fortunate to have a direct source like trumptoronto on this thread and not believe what he is telling you.

You don't always get the information as fast as he knows it (which is understandable) but when you do get it, it is dead on accurate. I also agree with the data he just shared and I do not know trumptoronto so I am validating through other sources.

You do realize that we don't know who either of you really are. We can't trust you guys more than you could trust me with info. We just have to hope you both know things we don't, and believe you. Or not.

You do realize that we don't know who either of you really are. We can't trust you guys more than you could trust me with info. We just have to hope you both know things we don't, and believe you. Or not.

I have a crazy idea phunky. Believe us until we give you a reason not to.

thats a pretty good point

I have a crazy idea phunky. Believe us until we give you a reason not to.

The Ritz says one thing publicly, but through my network, I hear much different otherwise. Same as Four Seasons. It's called "Toronto real estate marketing" aka "hype." Don't always believe what you hear...


There ya go, the only exception is Trump because their marketing or hype comes from the only good, honest, salt of the earth people in the industry. Believe everything they say, especially on a message board where there's absolutely zero accountability.

There ya go, the only exception is Trump because their marketing or hype comes from the only good, honest, salt of the earth people in the industry. Believe everything they say, especially on a message board where there's absolutely zero accountability.

trumptoronto is on the development team, not marketing. So who do you want your information coming from, people not tied to or involved in any way with the project? Yea, that sounds like a great source to believe instead. And if you don't believe anyone, then why bother with this thread?

I get it, your a sceptic. Heard it loud and clear.

Papajojo I understand where you are coming from. Its hard to believe anyone on forums. However, the city already approved lane closure for this project. It is September 7, and so it is a lot easier to believe what they are saying.

trumptoronto is on the development team, not marketing. So who do you want your information coming from, people not tied to or involved in any way with the project? Yea, that sounds like a great source to believe instead. And if you don't believe anyone, then why bother with this thread?

I get it, your a sceptic. Heard it loud and clear.

You giving out info is fine, but as trumptoronto said, just don't take it all as absolute truth. As you can understand, it's foolhardy to believe everything you hear, which some people might tend to do. I understand the place is being built and that's cool with me.

It's called "Toronto real estate marketing" aka "hype." Don't always believe what you hear...



I can't believe someone affiliated with the "Trump" name is lecturing people on hype. Now that's rich.

And I don't need to believe what i hear...I can believe what i SEE. I look at the Ritz site, which only went on sale a short while ago...and there's a construction crane working. I look at the Trump site, and all see is the same sales centre, which could probably apply for heritage status by now (SAVE OUR TRUMP SALES CENTRE) LOL...maybe they could just include it into the tower's facade?.




Math geniuses feel free to put your spin on the numbers.


You forgot to factor in the time involved.




Guys, it really is rediculous that you are fortunate to have a direct source like trumptoronto on this thread and not believe what he is telling you.


Well, a biased source that is only going to tell you something if it's perceived as "good"....you are guaranteed a spin. And I don't think he is giving us any info before it can be made public anyway.

As for not believing him...I believe the "numbers" he's quoting...why would I not? And I appreciate havinging him here. But that's not the issue in the first place...we are talking about how well it has fared in relation to similar projects.




The bank required 80% of the units sold to get their financing. They backed off enough floors to hit that target which brought them to 57 stories. They had no choice or they would have jeopardized all the previous sold units if they waited to hit 80% of a 70 storey tower.

And how could that not be seen as "blinking" ? They had to compromise the project before it blew up their face. And on top of it, it looks like they had to get creative with the financing too...I know the developer has eastern european connections, so going to an eastern european co-op for financing isn't unusual, but I doubt they could get the standard canadian bank financing...they are probably in the same boat as Stinson...you can pre-sell all the units you like, but the banks weren't going to finance "him" anyway. In fact, i find 1 King and this project very similar in that regard.

Think any of these other projects have so much trouble? No way...they are superior products from all-star teams.





KGB

And how could that not be seen as "blinking" ? They had to compromise the project before it blew up their face. And on top of it, it looks like they had to get creative with the financing

Big deal, they "blinked" and had to compromise by still building the tallest condo/hotel in Toronto. If you want to call that finishing in last place, go ahead.

I left out the words "five star" to keep you happy. I will save it for my next post.

As for not believing him...I believe the "numbers" he's quoting...why would I not?

KGB

Well there is a motive to possibly putting up higher numbers, as trumptoronto said so himself, to hype up the place, get word of mouth going that the place is selling out fast. Whether he is or not, I don't know, but I wouldn't put the possibility down altogether considering these are anonymous postings on a message board.

Well there is a reason he could be possibly putting up higher numbers, as trumptoronto said so himself, to hype up the place, get word of mouth going that the place is selling out fast.


Well, "fast" is obviously a relative term then i guess.

But that has nothing to do with any points I'm making. I am not disputing any sales numbers...I'm simply taking what we already know, and evaluating why it has taken so long to get where it is. That's all. I'm not saying it hasn't sold...I'm not saying it isn't the tallest residential building in the country...I'm not saying the building sucks. I'm just saying, that if it's such a great project, why have so many people chosen to buy the same level of product in other projects instead.




KGB

Well there is a reason he could be possibly putting up higher numbers, as trumptoronto said so himself, to hype up the place, get word of mouth going that the place is selling out fast. Whether he is or not, I don't know, but I wouldn't put the possibility down altogether considering these are anonymous postings on a message board.

If anything, trumptoronto is conservative as opposed to someone who is over hyping this project. I have questioned him enough on his conservative numbers for units sold where it now appears he has taken the time to really search out the most current data. That alone should tell you he is not in marketing or sales.

Remember, I gave you Sept 18th start date. trumptoronto only gave you "September". Say goodbye to the on-site sales office September 10th. Another date you have heard only from me. But I will say it again, we are fortunate he is providing this forum anything.

cuz the location sucks.

You do realize that the hotel portion is almost completely sold out don't you? Last time I checked, they were planning on building it at the same location as the residences.

There ya go, the only exception is Trump because their marketing or hype comes from the only good, honest, salt of the earth people in the industry. Believe everything they say, especially on a message board where there's absolutely zero accountability.

Here's what I mean by "hype." Many developments come out early on raving about how much they've sold already... we're already 50%, 70%, etc. sold! And yet, all they truthfully have is a reservation list, not actual firm sales contracts. Which is why so many projects boast great numbers initially, but yet, often times, the development never happens.

I can't believe someone affiliated with the "Trump" name is lecturing people on hype. Now that's rich.

And I don't need to believe what i hear...I can believe what i SEE. I look at the Ritz site, which only went on sale a short while ago...and there's a construction crane working. I look at the Trump site, and all see is the same sales centre, which could probably apply for heritage status by now (SAVE OUR TRUMP SALES CENTRE) LOL...maybe they could just include it into the tower's facade?.
KGB

The Ritz-Carlton started construction because Ritz-Carlton wanted to build the hotel in Toronto. Period. It was going ahead no matter what the residential sales pace was. The Residences at Ritz-Carlton only has 135 units to sell. We have 379--in a comparable price range. So of course, it's taken us longer! And that being said, the Residences at the Ritz-Carlton have NOT sold at any faster pace then Trump Toronto has. We've averaged about 90 units sold a year. In almost a year's time, from what I've heard, the Ritz has yet to meet that number.

Which is why so many projects boast great numbers initially, but yet, often times, the development never happens.


Really..."often" times, condo developments never happen? That's an immensely broad stroke of an accusation you have just made. I don't think you could characterize the Toronto condo market as "hollow" sales bullshit...too many record-breaking sales and construction figures to make that one fly.

In fact, i can't recall very many "hyped" projects that never happened. Oh wait...there's the first incarnation of the "Trump" project...then there's the reincarnation of that project, that has been "hyped" for years now, and still just a parking lot.

You know the old saying...people who live in glass condo towers.




KGB

The Ritz-Carlton started construction because Ritz-Carlton wanted to build the hotel in Toronto. Period. It was going ahead no matter what the residential sales pace was. The Residences at Ritz-Carlton only has 135 units to sell. We have 379--in a comparable price range. So of course, it's taken us longer! And that being said, the Residences at the Ritz-Carlton have NOT sold at any faster pace then Trump Toronto has. We've averaged about 90 units sold a year. In almost a year's time, from what I've heard, the Ritz has yet to meet that number.


Now your just repeating your little spin. Your logic is waaaay out of wack. It doesn't matter that they don't have to "sell" their hotel suites, cause they are already sold...to themselves....they still have to fuking PAAAAY for them to be constructed....the same as Trump does.

The simple fact of the matter is, it's going ahead...and in a hell of lot less time than it has taken trump.




KGB

I'm just saying, that if it's such a great project, why have so many people chosen to buy the same level of product in other projects instead.KGB

Because they are good projects also. Happy now? I think it is great that the Ritz and Four Seasons will also be building new in Toronto.


Your logic is waaaay out of wack. It doesn't matter that they don't have to "sell" their hotel suites, cause they are already sold...to themselves....they still have to fuking PAAAAY for them to be constructed....the same as Trump does.KGB

Did you really read what you typed before you posted it?? Are you saying it doesn't matter that the Ritz is building the hotel without having to sell them first? They are building based on a speculative market for hotel space. That is a hell of alot easier to move forward into construction than having to sell them all to individuals under contract. Trump is not paying for the hotels or the residences, investors are. Requires a bit more work don't you think?

Here's what I mean by "hype." Many developments come out early on raving about how much they've sold already... we're already 50%, 70%, etc. sold! And yet, all they truthfully have is a reservation list, not actual firm sales contracts. Which is why so many projects boast great numbers initially, but yet, often times, the development never happens.

Okay, sounds rather misleading.

Well, "fast" is obviously a relative term then i guess.

But that has nothing to do with any points I'm making. I am not disputing any sales numbers...I'm simply taking what we already know, and evaluating why it has taken so long to get where it is. That's all. I'm not saying it hasn't sold...I'm not saying it isn't the tallest residential building in the country...I'm not saying the building sucks. I'm just saying, that if it's such a great project, why have so many people chosen to buy the same level of product in other projects instead.

KGB

cuz the location sucks

If anything, trumptoronto is conservative and not one to over hype this project. I have questioned him enough on his conservative numbers for units sold where it appears he has taken the time to really search out the data and give you what the current picture is. That alone should tell you he is not in marketing or sales.

Remember, I gave you Sept 18th start date. trumptoronto only gave you "September". Say goodbye to the on site sales office September 10th. Another date you have heard only from me. I'll say it again, we are fortunate he is providing this forum anything.

Fair enough, I'll take your word for it since it doesn't really matter to me anyway. Do all purchasers get access to all the sales data? Did you purchase a hotel suite?

the location does not suck...maybe only in grocery store terms. what's so bad about it

I don't see how it sucks either. It's very very central as far as I can see. The type of people who will live there, do not want wide open spaces, they want urbanism on steroids. You can't do too much better than this location. A bank tower on each side, City Hall and the Eaton Centre a couple blocks north, the waterfront a 10 minute walk south, Union Station, Opera, Museums, Concert Halls, Theatre, it's all right there.

The only thing missing, as poined out above, is a good grocery store close by. I'm sure these people can send a staff member to fetch groceries for them, or buy over priced food at the Bay's Food Hall, Longho's in the Galleria, or order in.

Because they are good projects also.

Uh....yea...I think we could safely say that....thanks for that enlightening tidbit.



Did you really read what you typed before you posted it?? Are you saying it doesn't matter that the Ritz is building the hotel without having to sell them first?


Yes...I read it. You should not just read it, but try and "understand" it, and within the context of other points made in the topic.

Both projects need to be financed before construction can begin. And it isn't "easier" to finance something that isn't already 80% sold...it's harder.

When you are Ritz/Graywood, with Cadillac Fairview backing you up, you can just roll into the Royal Bank and get financing. If you are Talon, you can't...even if you rent the Trump name. It's like Stinson and his similar "5-star" hotel scheme...you can pre-sell them, and you STILL can't get local banks to touch you....you have to get creative with the financing. Or in other words, you take forever to do it. It has to do with risk.

And risk is not just something banks look at...so do condo purchasers...which is why it has taken so long to sell the condos. If you are shopping around Toronto for a brand new swanky luxo condo, and you take a look at One St Thomas, 100 Yorkville, The Regency, The Hazelton, 77 Charles, 155 Cumberland, The St. Thomas, Museum House (all projects without "names" attached to them), and then Trump...whcih one do you think will appeal to most people?

Then look around at really big high-end hotel/condo projects like Ritz, Four Seasons, Shangri-la...and then trump. Which have the most cashe? I think the market has spoken.




the location does not suck...maybe only in grocery store terms. what's so bad about it

Well, obviously you just don't understand the hierarchy of Toronto "locations". I wouldn't say it "sucks"...it just doesn't compare with other locations.



cuz the location sucks

The location isn't the only issue...it's not a "5-star" location, that's for sure.

But there are other factors as well...the Trump name has too much of a cheeze factor for many....the developer does not have a track record for this kind of development....it's a condo hotel suite scheme, which doesn't conform to the "usual" 5-star hotel idea that a tried-and-true, established name owns and manages their hotels. This looks, acts and smells too much like a "Harry Stinson" type of project. And the longer it takes to get a shovel in the ground, the more doubt and negativity it attracts.




KGB

^^ If you were expecting a response from me to your post, you actually have to make a point first. Repeating the same old tired stuff doesn't count. I am still waiting.....:ohno:

If you were expecting a response from me to your post, you actually have to make a point first.

Well, my post was addressing other people. It isn't AAAAAALL about you ya know.

I'm not expecting anything from you. I already know your position...you have apparantly purchased a unit in Trump, and you aren't going to let anything rain on your parade. If you're happy...then I'm happy for you. Doesn't change my opinions regarding the project either though.




KGB

KGB can't you just wait until September? They already announced it.
Instead of complaining and moaning, just be patient like everyone else.
Your act is getting tired.

I don't see how it sucks either. It's very very central as far as I can see. The type of people who will live there, do not want wide open spaces, they want urbanism on steroids. You can't do too much better than this location. A bank tower on each side, City Hall and the Eaton Centre a couple blocks north, the waterfront a 10 minute walk south, Union Station, Opera, Museums, Concert Halls, Theatre, it's all right there.

The only thing missing, as poined out above, is a good grocery store close by. I'm sure these people can send a staff member to fetch groceries for them, or buy over priced food at the Bay's Food Hall, Longho's in the Galleria, or order in.

Urbanism is one thing, but it's an inconvenient distance away from any urban highlights. A bank office tower on both sides? That sucks, who wants to live in the middle of office space surrounded by swarms of office workers during business hours? The wealthy people of Manhattan don't want to live in the middle of their financial district. I considered the main prospects for the Trump Toronto to be out of towners and I guess this is true, but even still, if I were a business executive who came in for short durations, why would I want to live right where I work when I can move to a better location within a 10 minute drive in any direction. What's so great about living by Union Station when you're going to use a car? The waterfront is at an inconvenient distance, if you liked the waterfront it would be a much better idea to actually live there. Is living by City Hall and Eaton centre a great positive? If someone was obsessed with Opera, Concert Halls and Theatre to make it one of their #1 priorities in location, the Ritz-Carlton would be a better location. You can't underscore the importance of a good quality grocery store nearby, even for wealthy people. The area around the building is an unappealing walking area and has no night or weekend life. You've got the waterfront area, St. Lawrence market area, Queen West and entertainment district, King West, Yorkville as better living areas nearby. I've lived downtown most of my life and I don't understand how if anyone had that kind of money to spend, why they would want to live in that location considering the many other options.

KGB can't you just wait until September? They already announced it.
Instead of complaining and moaning, just be patient like everyone else.

Why? What's going to happen in September? Why is reading comprehension so difficult for some people. I'm not complaining or moaning...I'm trying to piece together a puzzle as to why the Trump story has unfolded as it has. Starting construction or not in Septmeber has nothing to do with that.




KGB

What I am saying is who care how long it took them. They are starting it in September.

I don't care how long to took them to get to point A to point B. As long as you they got there.

I'm not complaining or moaning...

That is the statement of the year! LOL

Uh....yea...I think we could safely say that....thanks for that enlightening tidbit.






Yes...I read it. You should not just read it, but try and "understand" it, and within the context of other points made in the topic.

Both projects need to be financed before construction can begin. And it isn't "easier" to finance something that isn't already 80% sold...it's harder.

When you are Ritz/Graywood, with Cadillac Fairview backing you up, you can just roll into the Royal Bank and get financing. If you are Talon, you can't...even if you rent the Trump name. It's like Stinson and his similar "5-star" hotel scheme...you can pre-sell them, and you STILL can't get local banks to touch you....you have to get creative with the financing. Or in other words, you take forever to do it. It has to do with risk.

And risk is not just something banks look at...so do condo purchasers...which is why it has taken so long to sell the condos. If you are shopping around Toronto for a brand new swanky luxo condo, and you take a look at One St Thomas, 100 Yorkville, The Regency, The Hazelton, 77 Charles, 155 Cumberland, The St. Thomas, Museum House (all projects without "names" attached to them), and then Trump...whcih one do you think will appeal to most people?

Then look around at really big high-end hotel/condo projects like Ritz, Four Seasons, Shangri-la...and then trump. Which have the most cashe? I think the market has spoken.






Well, obviously you just don't understand the hierarchy of Toronto "locations". I wouldn't say it "sucks"...it just doesn't compare with other locations.





The location isn't the only issue...it's not a "5-star" location, that's for sure.

But there are other factors as well...the Trump name has too much of a cheeze factor for many....the developer does not have a track record for this kind of development....it's a condo hotel suite scheme, which doesn't conform to the "usual" 5-star hotel idea that a tried-and-true, established name owns and manages their hotels. This looks, acts and smells too much like a "Harry Stinson" type of project. And the longer it takes to get a shovel in the ground, the more doubt and negativity it attracts.




KGB

Everything word in your above post points to the hurdles which Trump has overcome to get to this point. If anything, their "success" will be greater than all the other hotel brands due to the obstacles they had to deal with in getting the project started.

Every word in your above post points to the hurdles which Trump has overcome to get to this point. If anything, their "success" will be greater than all the other hotel brands due to the obstacles they had to deal with in getting the project started.


Thank you caltrane! So this is the subtle message KGB has been trying to get across to all us? Appologies to KGB for the previous misunderstandings. :banana:

Well, "fast" is obviously a relative term then i guess.

But that has nothing to do with any points I'm making. I am not disputing any sales numbers...I'm simply taking what we already know, and evaluating why it has taken so long to get where it is. That's all. I'm not saying it hasn't sold...I'm not saying it isn't the tallest residential building in the country...I'm not saying the building sucks. I'm just saying, that if it's such a great project, why have so many people chosen to buy the same level of product in other projects instead.
KGB

FACTS:
Trump Toronto sales began September 2004.
Construction begins September 2007.
379 units for sale.
90% of suites released for pre-construction sale have sold.
$275-million in firm sales in 34 months.
Record-breaking? No. Succesful? Yes.

Customers for Four Seasons, Ritz-Carlton, Shangri-La and Trump are similar, yet different. And from different parts of the world than others.

It's the same reason some people choose BMW, some choose Mercedes, some choose Lexus and some choose Bentley. All similar in price and luxury at their top-end (Bentley kicks it up a notch), but unique to those who drive them.

So, some people have chosen to buy at different properties for different reasons. Big deal? That doesn't make one project better than another. Just different. Each property has slightly different or unique lifestyle offerings that better fit some clients than others. We've had clients come to us after visiting the other properties and bought with us, and vice versa. Having competition has actually been beneficial for us.

Bottom line, all of these projects are great for Toronto!

^^ I could have bought at any of them and chose Trump. I did look at the Ritz and Four Seasons as well but chose Trump because I felt it fit my particular needs the best, just as trumptoronto mentioned.

How is this so hard to understand for some people? Not everybody thinks like you, KGB. I couldn't care less how close I am to the symphony or whether the view is better at another location. My reasons for choosing Trump was that it was the best choice that catered to the business traveler and is tying all their services around it. The other properties do cater to the business traveler but they are distracted by also catering to weddings, special events and other things as well. For me, that would be an annoying inconvienance to have to deal with so I am glad the Ritz and others serve that market.

SO KGB, if you are going to turn real estate into something more than a hobby, you have to realize that some of your customers do not think like you and buy for different reasons. If you can't wrap your brain around that, stick to the geothermal business.

I could have bought at any of them and chose Trump. I did look at the Ritz and Four Seasons as well but chose Trump because I felt it fit my particular needs the best

How is this so hard to understand for some people?

It's not hard for me to understand. Which is why i have mentioned several times that if "you" are happy with that purchase, than "you" made the right decision.

But this hasn't been ALL about YOU. That is a concept you seem to have a hard time understanding (which probably is the real reason Trump appeals to you).




It's the same reason some people choose BMW, some choose Mercedes, some choose Lexus and some choose Bentley. All similar in price and luxury at their top-end (Bentley kicks it up a notch), but unique to those who drive them.

I really don't think we require automobile analogies.

Maybe Trump could build a car next? (of course he would have to pre-sell them all before they could be manufactured).





KGB

Alright the needs to STOP! Trump will be starting in September!!!!!!!!!! let's be happy and not so negative! Were so lucky here that we have to people Intheknow ans TrumpToronto here telling all this imformation months in advance!!! I would like to say thank you for what you have given us!

Ya it's getting really annoying now.

Ya it's getting really annoying now.

LOL.

Actually they both have good points but most of the time are not addressing the same details so progress is...slow(?).

Anyway, they've been going at it for almost three years. You don't really expect them to stop now do you? LOL.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=2588844#post2588844

Is this the one that got them going?