View Full Version : Vancouver tussles with condo, office mix


mr.x
August 24th, 2006, 08:56 AM
Despite two-year-long moratorium on downtown condominiums, city grapples with keeping workplaces in the city centre

PETER MITHAM

Special to The Globe and Mail

VANCOUVER -- Three years ago, plans for a 420-unit condo tower at Granville and Dunsmuir, directly across the street from the Canaccord Tower where the Vancouver Stock Exchange once did business, were an innovative means of making the most of an underused commercial property in a lacklustre office market.

But following a string of applications to rezone similar properties and even convert existing office towers, such as the iconic, cube-shaped Westcoast Energy tower, to high-end condos, Vancouver councillors said enough.

Responding to criticism that the emphasis on downtown residential development was making Vancouver more of a resort than a proper city, and that the city was jeopardizing its commercial land base, councillors declared a moratorium on residential development in the downtown core.

The moratorium, passed in May, 2004, extended from approximately Robson Street to the waterfront six blocks north, and west from Victory Square on the edge of the Downtown Eastside to Bute Street and the condo towers of Coal Harbour.


Two years later, the impact of the conversions and rezonings lingers: Downtown sites that were developed for condos have left fewer sites available for offices. The resulting scarcity has boosted the value of the remaining office sites, while the high prices paid for residential development sites has also raised the value of office sites.

"There's no new pressure from residential, due to the moratorium, but land values have been bid up . . . so we're left with the resulting pressure," said Tony Astles, senior vice-president with Bentall Real Estate Services LP.

Mr. Astles pegs the current cost of developing class-A office space at $36 to $39 a square foot, about even with top-end rents today, but a development proposed today will have to count on rents continuing to rise to cover construction costs that are unlikely to be set until 2008.

"Construction costs will be going up considerably, so then your rental rate is going to have to be matching that," he said, sidestepping an estimate to say only: "The numbers will be higher."

Given such conditions, the only current prospects for new office development in the Vancouver core are 838 West Hastings, where Jameson Development Corp. plans to build 75,000 square feet of offices as part of a mixed-use project, including a hotel and condos, and a city-owned lot across from the Queen Elizabeth Theatre that is tagged for a federal office tower.

With municipal approval times for new projects in Vancouver running upward of 240 days, and construction costs rising more than 10 to 15 per cent a year on the back of material and labour costs, Mr. Astles said developers are more likely to look to Burnaby and Richmond where smaller-scale projects allow them to bring space to market faster and at less expense.

"There's a number of designed sites that are ready for construction, and they will likely come into play in the next few years. So, the City of Vancouver could lose some of its businesses to the suburbs."

Making sure an undertow from the tide of residential development doesn't sweep Vancouver office space to the suburbs is the goal of a study that's tallying office space -- developed and undeveloped -- in the city's downtown. The study aims to determine the best balance between office and condo development in the core.

Ronda Howard, the senior planner overseeing the study, said a final plan is set to go to council next year covering the metropolitan core, an area extending from the harbour south to 16th Avenue between Burrard Street and Clark Drive.

The study's initial findings indicate that development of office space typically follows market cycles, always catching up with demand. Over the past five years, for example, a total of two million square feet of office space was built. Although some existing space was lost at the same time, as a result of conversions to condos and other factors, the net gain was still 1.3 million square feet on a total inventory in the metropolitan core of about 24.5 million square feet.

"Downtown Vancouver has added more office square feet in the last 10 years than Toronto," Ms. Howard said. "It has also had a higher per-cent growth in office space than Toronto, or Montreal."

But Chris Clibbon, senior research analyst with CB Richard Ellis in Vancouver, argues that the lack of a major office project ready to go presents a major problem for Vancouver, which had an average downtown vacancy rate in the second quarter of 6.5 per cent.

Just 350,000 square feet are slated to come to market by 2010. More than 235,000 square feet of the new space will be in the second phase of the Bentall 5 tower, which was largely leased prior to construction.

But for the past three years, an average of 150,000 to 200,000 square feet of office space each quarter has been taken up by leases.

"When you're talking about 150,000 to 200,000 square feet of absorption a quarter, 350,000 square feet of new supply in four years is not enough to satisfy demand," Mr. Clibbon said.

Calgary, which is next to Vancouver in terms of downtown residential growth in Western Canada and is posting an average core office vacancy rate of 0.6 per cent, isn't facing the same crunch.

Indeed, Calgary is having difficulty reining in office development, according to Brent Toderian, that city's manager for centre city planning and design who is set to become head planner for Vancouver. "We have issues of large-scale office users bleeding out of the office core, going into the high-density residential neighbourhoods around them."

To better manage the balance, Calgary is currently reviewing its centre city development plan, which hasn't had a comprehensive makeover since 1966.

Noting the planning reviews under way in both Vancouver and Calgary, Vancouver planning director Larry Beasley (who is retiring and handing the reins to Mr. Toderian on Sept. 14) said Vancouver offers a model of how blending residential and commercial uses can create an urban core that remains vibrant even when office workers go home.

Other cities "see the balance in Vancouver and they want that," he said.

Part of the key is having homes relatively close to jobs -- in this case, downtown office towers -- a scenario that requires strong urban design principles that address both the location as well as the form of new developments. The study of land uses in the metropolitan core will help to further strengthen existing policies.

Mr. Toderian said the Vancouver model is influencing Calgary's review of its own city centre area plan, but that doesn't mean Calgary will become a clone of Vancouver. Rather, the principles will help Calgary address its own challenges in the interest of ensuring a healthy market for both office and residential development well into the future.

"What Vancouver shows is that there's a magic to doing density in a way that's highly livable. And that sustains the market over time," Mr. Toderian said.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060815.PRVANOFFICE15/TPStory/Business


Correction: vacancy rate is 3%, not 6%

WinnipegPatriot
August 24th, 2006, 01:03 PM
I too am a little annoyed that Vancouver is looking more like a resort. New office towers will be a nice addition! Of course, they will have to be tall given the lack of space right??? This is the ideal reason to forego the height restrictions. obviously, if you have limited space, you need to build up!

VanSeaPor
August 29th, 2006, 07:49 AM
I would like to see the uglier apartments and condos done away with first.

valantino
August 29th, 2006, 08:51 AM
Downtown Vancouver has added more office square feet in the last 10 years than Toronto," Ms. Howard said

cute

EastVanMark
August 29th, 2006, 10:12 AM
I too am a little annoyed that Vancouver is looking more like a resort. New office towers will be a nice addition! Of course, they will have to be tall given the lack of space right??? This is the ideal reason to forego the height restrictions. obviously, if you have limited space, you need to build up!

Seems only logical. Just one problem; Vancouver polititions are allergic to logic.
As far as adding 350,000 of office space by 2010; pathetic. One proper office tower should have double that square footage. When you consider most of that is because of Bentall 5, it makes it even worse

Nouvellecosse
August 30th, 2006, 12:24 PM
I would like to see the uglier apartments and condos done away with first.
Same here...

Rhino
August 30th, 2006, 06:39 PM
what new Office buildings are beeing worked on right now or are in the works ?

officedweller
August 30th, 2006, 09:37 PM
Not much downtown - the second phase of Bentall V and a smallish office component in the Jameson Tower - plus a rumoured office tower at Alberni & Thurlow or Granville Square - nothing concrete on those though.

PeterSmith
September 1st, 2006, 12:40 AM
What is happening to the jobs in Vancouver? Are they relocating outside of downtown? Are they relocating to other cities? How is unemployment in Vancouver?

This idea of people wanting to live in the city is a foreign concept to where I live, so I'm very curious to hear how this is playing out. What would you all like to see happen with this situation? Would you like to see people stop moving to downtown, or would you just like to see office space keep up with the residential development?

spongeg
September 1st, 2006, 03:05 AM
so whos preventing a new office tower from going up?

city council or developers?

officedweller
September 1st, 2006, 09:07 PM
More like "what's" preventing...

That would be economics. There's more profit in condos than office space. Lease rates have to be high enough to offset the high construction costs. When the market gets tight on vacant space, lease rates will rise ... and hopefully developers will respond.

KGB
September 2nd, 2006, 02:36 AM
Quote:
Downtown Vancouver has added more office square feet in the last 10 years than Toronto," Ms. Howard said


"cute"



Well sure...the idea that someone would even try to spin it to sound like Vancouver is "outdoing" Toronto in some sort of office market comparison is dumb in the first place. I mean com'on...to cherry pick a time when Toronto wasn't building much new office space to make the fact that you built dick all yourself seem like you accomplished something is a tad pathetic.

But that's beside the point....Ms Howard is just plain wrong anyway...Downtown Toronto has added more than 1.3 million square feet of new office space in the last 10 years anyway. Sure, we haven't put up any major office towers, but that doesn't mean there hasn't been any new office space added...someone needed to do a little more homework before shooting their mouth off.

2 Queen St East was 430,000 square feet....Allied Canadian added about 1 million square feet in their adaptive reuse project at King/Spadina...and many more adaptive re-use office projects have taken place...they just aren't huge, but they all add up to a lot of space....King West corridor/Entertainment District/Queen East/King East/Liberty Village...we are talking major amounts of space if you add it up.

Also, there's Rogers major addition to their head office on Jarvis, although that is owner-occupied, not leasable space to the general public. Then there's that new 110,000 square foot LEEDS SAS building on King East. Then their's MaRS, which is very specific space, but lots of office space non-the-less...phase 1 is 700,000 square feet alone.

So, I don't think Vancouver can really make any claims over Toronto in regards to office space in the last ten years...and years before that...or any years down the road.






KGB

Rhino
September 2nd, 2006, 07:52 AM
wow toronto sure is great , thanks KGB

KGB
September 2nd, 2006, 04:08 PM
Isn't that sarcasm pointed in the wrong direction? Nothing about my post was trying to make out Toronto to be great. Outdoing Vancouver in anything isn't considered any big accomplishment for Toronto, which is why you would rarely hear of such comparisons.

Rather, it was a response to someone trying to make out Vancouver to be "great", or to have made some kind of accomplishment by making a statement like we built more new office space than Toronto in a given period. It's quite common to hear other cities, especially western cities always making comparisons to Toronto when bragging about their city's accomplishments.

I guess there's nothing unusual about this, as Toronto is the largest city, and therefore the natural candidate for comparisons, but in this case, the statement is false to begin with.

It doesn't seem logical that you would attack the correction of false information. Is it just the fact that you, from western Canada, having that built-in negative knee-jerk reaction to anything "Toronto" that accounts for this?






KGB

Rhino
September 2nd, 2006, 07:20 PM
No its not your correction of info that sarcasm is directed at , its that instead of showing a point and moving on , Its more or less the way you also belittled Vancouver again thats all . I under stand where your comming from though , If someone said
( just an example ) there was more to do in Ontario as opposed to B.C. , when it comes to out door activities Id be a little miffed too .

Plumber73
September 2nd, 2006, 09:22 PM
"Downtown Vancouver has added more office square feet in the last 10 years than Toronto," Ms. Howard said"

That doesn't make sense to me. I thought we've lost office space if anything - with residential taking over...

I wouldn't give a flying F even if we have added more office space than Toronto or Montreal. Is it really something to take pride in? Something you have absolutely no control over?

KGB
September 3rd, 2006, 02:55 AM
"No its not your correction of info that sarcasm is directed at , its that instead of showing a point and moving on , Its more or less the way you also belittled Vancouver again thats all"


You'd have to be pretty paranoid to perceive my post as about belittling Vancouver. I quite clearly took a quote from a specific person and countered it with facts. There's nothing anti-Vancouver in it at all.

It's quite true that I have a poor opinion of western Canadians when it comes to their fantasies about Toronto or Ontario....but this article and your response are just proof of how wide-spread these falacies are.






"If someone said ( just an example ) there was more to do in Ontario as opposed to B.C. , when it comes to out door activities Id be a little miffed too"



I don't know if that's a very good example, as while I'm sure this is yet another widely-held fantasy by BCers (I've heard this one too many times), you'd be hard-pressed to counter such a claim with facts as I have. There are 13 million of us...occasionally we go outdoors and do activities. What in the world would make you think any more of it would be going on in BC????????

Geeez....and you wonder where I get my wonky impression of you westerners.







KGB

mr.x
September 3rd, 2006, 04:39 AM
KGB, this is a warning.

KGB
September 3rd, 2006, 04:54 AM
A warning concerning what...correcting false claims in posts by providing facts to back it up???

Perhaps it's the smart-ass posts given in response to it that should garner any warnings, as that would seem to be more along the lines of inappropriate forum behavior with its obvious antagonistic and sarcastic display.

If your bias allows you to be blind to this, then perhaps "moderating" is not for you?






KGB

mr.x
September 3rd, 2006, 05:13 AM
A warning concerning what...correcting false claims in posts by providing facts to back it up???

Perhaps it's the smart-ass posts given in response to it that should garner any warnings, as that would seem to be more along the lines of inappropriate forum behavior with its obvious antagonistic and sarcastic display.

If your bias allows you to be blind to this, then perhaps "moderating" is not for you?


KGB

Bias? KGB, i've seen you start arguments here in this forum (the previous Western Canada forum) where you've completely hijacked topics and talked about other cities and what i don't want to see here is the exact same thing happening again. You got your point across already, there was no need for comments like "you wonder where I get my wonky impression of you westerners."

We've had a problem here in the Canada forums for quite some time in regards to disrespect, and particularly trolls, and i personally will not tolerate this. This doesn't just go for you but for all Canadians in these forums from coast to coast.....if i see it, i'll act on it.

KGB
September 3rd, 2006, 07:04 AM
"KGB, i've seen you start arguments here in this forum (the previous Western Canada forum) where you've completely hijacked topics and talked about other cities and what i don't want to see here is the exact same thing happening again. We've had a problem here in the Canada forums for quite some time in regards to disrespect, and particularly trolls"


Uh...no. You didn't see me start any arguements before, any more than I have now. What you do see is me, disagreeing with a claim posted in an article (an article posted by YOU). I challenged that claim with facts. I did not "hijack" anything...I did not talk about "other" cities...YOU posted an article that contained a direct claim regarding Vancouver and Toronto...not me. This is not trolling and there was nothing disrespectful said in doing so. I am perfectly entitled to challenge claims made in posts.

Directly following my post, was a snide, sarcastic and antagonistic remark directed personally at me, which certainly had nothing to do with the posted article. It was then followed by analogies about Ontario, BC and outdoor activities (uh yea...whatever). Hardly on topic, and certainly not brought up by me.

This was uncalled for, disrespectful, off topic and certainly a deliberate attempt at shit-disturbing.

So you ask why I mention bias? This manages to fly under your radar, and instead you decide to play the heavy with me, issueing ominous "warnings" and wrongly accusing me of trolling, disrespect, changing the topic, and some vague references to non-existent past trolling.

How would you account for this then?






KGB

mr.x
September 3rd, 2006, 07:33 AM
ummmm......KGB, do you really think I would or anybody else would disagree with your argument? it's ridiculous to say that Vancouver outdid Toronto in office space and anybody would agree with that.

Your warning was based on this comment made in the second post:

Geeez....and you wonder where I get my wonky impression of you westerners.

And if i didn't step in, you can bet this topic will turn into a shit fest.



The posts following yours were simply 1) to show that you were going off-topic and that the point was taken and 2) was just an analogy. Final point is: you have been trolling here in the past, and trolling includes belittling....for example, how about the original RAV topics in this forum and the Subways forum, and a Vancouver economic output topic in this forum, etc.