Tens of thousands of people continued to be detained or imprisoned in violation of their fundamental human rights and were at high risk of torture or ill-treatment. Thousands of people were sentenced to death or executed, many after unfair trials. Public protests increased against forcible evictions and land requisition without adequate compensation.

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/chn-summary-eng

I think you are talking about US Army in Iraq

No sir, this is the China forum.

I am referring to China's persecution of the Falun Gong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_gong), the ill treatment of prisoners, the enslavement of the Tibetan people, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet) the trafficking of woman, the Tiananmen Square massacre, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989) the one child policy which leaders to murder and the forced sterilization of women.

Need i go on?

You are such a dumbass instead of Mr. Smart. Registered in Aug. 2006? 7 posts so far? Who are you? Another troll? That idiotic Danish called Comache in disguise? or someone else who was banned on SSC for attacking China and came back with this dumbass new username?

So what?

Everyone knows that the rule of a single political party without the control of neither a free press nor a free elections leads to abuse of political power.

Thats the price the chinese people have to pay for their economic progress.
And right now, everybody accepts that, even the west :)

If you have nothing mature to add about the topic then please refrain from posting. This thread was intended to be a discussion regarding China's policies. If you wish to start a post about me, the US military or anything else please start a new topic and do it in the proper forum.

You are not trying to start a constructive discussion. You were doing ideological China-bashing which lots of other trolls had done for endless times on this forum before. Always inevitably fierce fighting, swearing, cursing would be flamed up. I have no interest in having any further so-called discussion with you, but trust me, there're quite a few Chinese forumers on SSC that are very difficult for you to handle with, and you would totally regret that you even started this thread, unless you are a troll and your only purpose of starting this thread was to incite a "war".

If you have nothing mature to add about the topic then please refrain from posting. This thread was intended to be a discussion regarding China's policies. If you wish to start a post about me, the US military or anything else please start a new topic and do it in the proper forum.
hehe, I agree with you if you don't mention Falun Gong. Ask any chinese and find out what falun gong is before you made a comment. Almost every Chinese (even the anti-comminust activist) knows what Falungong is and what they do. Who on earth believe Falungong except brainwashed people like you? :)

you are really humiliating yourself and making yourself a laughingstock by talking FLG, stop here please.

No sir, this is the China forum.

I am referring to China's persecution of the Falun Gong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_gong), the ill treatment of prisoners, the enslavement of the Tibetan people, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet) the trafficking of woman, the Tiananmen Square massacre, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989) the one child policy which leaders to murder and the forced sterilization of women.

Need i go on?

Why don't you go to other politics-related forums? This is Skyscrapercity.com

BTW, do you think it's more effective to do whatever you can do to correct these problems than just barking here? Even if you manage to change our minds, is there any significance? Maybe a naked protest by you in Tian'anmen Square can attract more attention or just persuade your dear President Bush to drop bombs on China like they did before on other countries.

If there are two countries with a long history or tradition as you call it of Human Rights Violation it is the USA and the UK. Both their governments and their armies. And i am not talking about three matters like the Flaun Gong, Tiananmen Square and the Tibetan People. I am talking about so many matters that will give you a headache just by reading their titles.

But then again you sound like one of those people terrorised of China's arising might that will surpass and miniscule the USA.

Well, I don't want to go inside the debate, just want to say that all of these China-bashing campaign only backfires, meaning that Chinese are getting more and more distrustful to these lecturers.

Also, please be aware, this is not the place to post political issues.

I don't see why everyone's jumping on him so fiercely. The man just stated that China has terrible human rights abuses, which it does. But alot of countries do, I wouldn't be too offended if someone told me there were human rights abuses in my country. There are everywhere. China is on most of the worlds watchlist because it is so big and the government is so opressive.


I heard on the news that Paul MCartney was trying to boycott china because of it's abuse to children and torture of animals. I think what he is doing is very extreme, and unjustified, but in some people's minds it's right.

the enslavement of the Tibetan people
Enslavement? Tell us about human rights in Tibet before the PRC got that region back to China, please. Tell us about the serfs (slaves) and the situation of women under the taliban (sorry) lamaist government, come on :|

I think you are talking about US Army in Iraq



China did to Tibet what America is doing to Iraq. I think it's a bit hypocritical of you.

Mr. Smart,
Should we call you Mr. Stupid? It seems that "Mr.Stupid " describes you characteristics much better than "Mr.Smart". :cheers: :cheers:

I don't see why everyone's jumping on him so fiercely. The man just stated that China has terrible human rights abuses, which it does. But alot of countries do, I wouldn't be too offended if someone told me there were human rights abuses in my country. There are everywhere. China is on most of the worlds watchlist because it is so big and the government is so opressive.


I heard on the news that Paul MCartney was trying to boycott china because of it's abuse to children and torture of animals. I think what he is doing is very extreme, and unjustified, but in some people's minds it's right.

And Thailand prostitutes its children for Western child molesters. Notice the West never makes a stink about their human rights abuse playgrounds?

I'm sure Paul McCartney expects the Chinese to start killing themselves because they don't have his approval for existing.

Every time they talked about CHina, only two things, Tibet and Ti'anman Square, no matter how many year ago, no matter what it is the real fact.

Never have any rest! Why nobody talks about Japan invaded Asia 70 years ago?

Do you suppose that each one who posts these stuff, the Chinese have to say sth to explain? Otherwise they admit all the malign? For twenty years? How many times these things have been refered to, and China has been cursed, demonized?

So you tell me how China does to pleased you? Let FLG who instigate believer fire themsleves for some purification charge CHina? Or stop one child policy and make Chinese 2 billion to flood the whole world? Or make CCP crash like USSR and China fall into pieces? Or you want CHina collapse? Or you just want to see CHinese embarrassing to make yourself happy?

That's why some forumers here hate the western people... :sleepy: I know most western people are reasonable and polite like z0rg, hope guys who are not don't be fool any more...

If you have nothing mature to add about the topic then please refrain from posting. This thread was intended to be a discussion regarding China's policies. If you wish to start a post about me, the US military or anything else please start a new topic and do it in the proper forum.

Yeah and this is a forum about skyscrapers and not your political hypocrisy and your nationalistic insecurities.

Yeah and this is a forum about skyscrapers and not your political hypocrisy and your nationalistic insecurities.

It seems they like politics (or bashing China) rather than skyscapers, give them some links called politics forums, where they can bash as high as they can get...

I don't see why everyone's jumping on him so fiercely. The man just stated that China has terrible human rights abuses, which it does. But alot of countries do, I wouldn't be too offended if someone told me there were human rights abuses in my country. There are everywhere. China is on most of the worlds watchlist because it is so big and the government is so opressive.


I heard on the news that Paul MCartney was trying to boycott china because of it's abuse to children and torture of animals. I think what he is doing is very extreme, and unjustified, but in some people's minds it's right.

If you are just soliciting the answer you were expecting, then there is no point to raise any issue. You can just point a gun and tell us what to say.

All of the chinese forumers, most have access to west freedom, so to speak, are just talking honestly what they think. If you don't like, then simply leave. If you want to discuss here, then accept what you get.

^I never told you guys what to say. I was just wondering why people were jumping on him. There is is alot of hatred of westerners on these forums, which is why I don't spend much time here.


And Thailand prostitutes its children for Western child molesters. Notice the West never makes a stink about their human rights abuse playgrounds?


Who says the West never raises the issue of human rights? That's half of what the goddam European Union ever freaking talks about.

Living in Thailand I realized how untrue that steryotype is among the general population. There are 220,000 recorded Prostitutes in a country of 70 million. US. Phillipines. Taiwan and much of Europe have larger sex industries. Thai's just don't try to hide it.

No sir, this is the China forum.

I am referring to China's persecution of the Falun Gong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_gong), the ill treatment of prisoners, the enslavement of the Tibetan people, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet) the trafficking of woman, the Tiananmen Square massacre, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989) the one child policy which leaders to murder and the forced sterilization of women.

Need i go on?

China did many many wrong things, but those you mentioned may be the only few things China did right.

^I never told you guys what to say. I was just wondering why people were jumping on him. There is is alot of hatred of westerners on these forums, which is why I don't spend much time here.


I have told you why, you just didn't read it. I will post it again, and imagine some one do the same things to your country... :bash:

Every time they talked about CHina, only two things, Tibet and Ti'anman Square, no matter how many year ago, no matter what it is the real fact.

Never have any rest! Why nobody talks about Japan invaded Asia 70 years ago?

Do you suppose that each one who posts these stuff, the Chinese have to say sth to explain? Otherwise they admit all the malign? For twenty years? How many times these things have been refered to, and China has been cursed, demonized?

So you tell me how China does to pleased you? Let FLG who instigate believer fire themsleves for some purification charge CHina? Or stop one child policy and make Chinese 2 billion to flood the whole world? Or make CCP crash like USSR and China fall into pieces? Or you want CHina collapse? Or you just want to see CHinese embarrassing to make yourself happy?

That's why some forumers here hate the western people... I know most western people are reasonable and polite like z0rg, hope guys who are not don't be fool any more...
____________

中国开始步向成熟.

@Jo48
I'll tell you how to distinguish a China-bashing troll.
They have less than 10 posts. Most are related to Tian'anmen or Falungong or human rights.
They change the username as soon as they got banned.
Those trolls don't deserve we talking to them normally. I think we are quite polite to them already. If face to face, he'd better protect his ass first.

Pointing the finger at another country doesn't help the issue. Every country has their problems but China's oppresive regime brings them to another level. It's China that is on a human rights watchlist, not America.

Iraq vs. Tibet

The US has a military presence here but they have given control back to the government. The problem in Iraq is that Islam has split them into two factions.

In Tibet almost all of the people are solely against the Chinese for the subjugation of the people and theft of their land. Tibetans were forced to starve so that China could obtain the nuclear bomb. The Sino-Soviet split happened because China did nothing to help its friend the Soviet Union; it was only concerned about obtaining weaponry and military technology.

Internet

It comes as no surprise that the Chinese government blocks many Western sites. Free speech is a major problem for this country which is only concerned with gaining more military power and lining the pockets of its politicians.

People

China cares very little for it's people. The government views the people as an expendable resource similar to oil or natural gas. It is for this reason that the Chinese people have starved while the government sold food abroad. "Human wave" tactics were also shown during the Korean War when Chinese soldiers were sent into battle with poor equipment using rush tactics. Many Chinese soldiers died in the winter of the war due to poor equipment and the heartless tactics of leaders who cared little for the welfare of the common man.



You can flame me all you want but the fact still stands that China has a long way to go before it can call itself a civilized nation. It's neighbors South Korea and Japan have become much more mature while China continues to remain an infant. Chinese people are good people but they are too trusting of their government and allow themselves to be taken advantage of.

China did many many wrong things, but those you mentioned may be the only few things China did right.



China does do many things right, but torture and enslavement are never justified. Sure it wasn't right of Mr. Smart to make this thread. I can see how anyone who is Chinese may get offended, but you're still treating him pretty nastily.


If we are mature people, we should be able to discuss our countries shortcomings, because personally, I find alot of it interesting. But when people throw the words 'Dumbass' and 'troll' around it just ruins everything.

Pointing the finger at another country doesn't help the issue. Every country has their problems but China's oppresive regime brings them to another level. It's China that is on a human rights watchlist, not America.

Iraq vs. Tibet

The US has a military presence here but they have given control back to the government. The problem in Iraq is that Islam has split them into two factions.

In Tibet almost all of the people are solely against the Chinese for the subjugation of the people and theft of their land. Tibetans were forced to starve so that China could obtain the nuclear bomb. The Sino-Soviet split happened because China did nothing to help its friend the Soviet Union; it was only concerned about obtaining weaponry and military technology.

Internet

It comes as no surprise that the Chinese government blocks many Western sites. Free speech is a major problem for this country which is only concerned with gaining more military power and lining the pockets of its politicians.

People

China cares very little for it's people. The government views the people as an expendable resource similar to oil or natural gas. It is for this reason that the Chinese people have starved while the government sold food abroad. "Human wave" tactics were also shown during the Korean War when Chinese soldiers were sent into battle with poor equipment using rush tactics. Many Chinese soldiers died in the winter of the war due to poor equipment and the heartless tactics of leaders who cared little for the welfare of the common man.



You can flame me all you want but the fact still stands that China has a long way to go before it can call itself a civilized nation. It's neighbors South Korea and Japan have become much more mature while China continues to remain an infant. Chinese people are good people but they are too trusting of their government and allow themselves to be taken advantage of.

I'm sure that's your Western propaganda version of it. The fact is China isn't taking military action on anyone while the West is. China doesn't have a religious agenda to enslave all of humanity under Christianity. You don't understand why Chinese people here don't follow the West blindly and criticize the government? It's because the Chinese aren't dogs for Western masters to command. We don't follow the West who in history has committed far more crimes upon the Chinese than the communists. You're concern for human rights in China is disingenuous as history and current events have proven. Western human rights groups are operated by Westerners who have a interest in keeping the truth hidden about Western crimes upon humanity in history. You don't recognize that conflict because of simple arrogance. They have no credibility criticzing other countries when Americans use them to back their attacks while themselves rejecting their "authority" when the guns are in the rare instance pointed at US human rights violations. Yesterday, the West put the name of God in front of them so that no one could question or challenge their divine right to take-over the world under its submission. Today they they do it in the name of democracy and human rights. All the difference in the world simply put into a name.

You're not winning hearts and minds with that arrogance. But then that was never your agenda in the first place but just racist trolling as usual. The universe isn't black and white where you can just declare yourself "the good" so that in your mind anyone who challenges or disobeys you slightest command has to be for evil. As if just because you say it, it makes it so? Ever hear of lying?

I'm tired of talking with you two, Jo48 and Mr. Stupid. Anyone who are not bored, would you please repeat to them what we did thousands of times since we joined this forum.
When it comes to China issues, you are no expert than us, who lived in China and now live in western countries most of the time.
So, cut it off before this thread getting closed.

I'm tired of talking with you two, Jo48 and Mr. Stupid. Anyone who are not bored, would you please repeat to them what we did



Why are you draggin me into this? What did I say to anyone?

Once again: Enslavement in China????
What's next?

The evil capitalist - communist empire according to the NYT and their hordes of brainwashed trolls all around the Internet:
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/6751/mordormapbig12axn5.jpg

No sense of ridicule left! You guys are very proud of your freedom of speech, but you should use the freedom of thinking sometimes. It isn't painful, believe me :|

Why are you draggin me into this? What did I say to anyone?
No I'm not, don't get me wrong.
You are free to leave.

Pointing the finger at another country doesn't help the issue. Every country has their problems but China's oppresive regime brings them to another level. It's China that is on a human rights watchlist, not America.

Iraq vs. Tibet

The US has a military presence here but they have given control back to the government. The problem in Iraq is that Islam has split them into two factions.

In Tibet almost all of the people are solely against the Chinese for the subjugation of the people and theft of their land. Tibetans were forced to starve so that China could obtain the nuclear bomb. The Sino-Soviet split happened because China did nothing to help its friend the Soviet Union; it was only concerned about obtaining weaponry and military technology.

Internet

It comes as no surprise that the Chinese government blocks many Western sites. Free speech is a major problem for this country which is only concerned with gaining more military power and lining the pockets of its politicians.

People

China cares very little for it's people. The government views the people as an expendable resource similar to oil or natural gas. It is for this reason that the Chinese people have starved while the government sold food abroad. "Human wave" tactics were also shown during the Korean War when Chinese soldiers were sent into battle with poor equipment using rush tactics. Many Chinese soldiers died in the winter of the war due to poor equipment and the heartless tactics of leaders who cared little for the welfare of the common man.



You can flame me all you want but the fact still stands that China has a long way to go before it can call itself a civilized nation. It's neighbors South Korea and Japan have become much more mature while China continues to remain an infant. Chinese people are good people but they are too trusting of their government and allow themselves to be taken advantage of.

All these ideological shit just further convince me that you are an arrogant, brainwashed dumbass plus a troll.

And to that Jo48, if you think this Mr. Stupid doesn't deserve to be called "dumbass" or "troll", I must say you are not much better than him either. This forum is full of hatred against westerners? Are you kidding me? Go to any American forum (you are an American, right?), and attack the US on black slavery, Europeans' massive killing of native Americans, Europeans' colonization of American continents, Iraqi war, so on and on, see which kind of reponse you will get, both you and we know it would be ten times worse than what you have seen in this thread. Don't tell me that's not true. I am in the so-called "American Heartland" now, I know what your countrymen are like.

I know what your countrymen are like.



Oh wow, thank you. That wasn't offensive at all.


Why is it that when someone brings up a problem china needs to work on Chinese forumers get angry? Is nationalism that strong in china that you can't admit your own countries shortcoming? All countries have problems. (If you think I'm bashing China you should read all of my posts very carefully, I never attacked or insulted ANYONE)... so why I have earned the china forums' hatred for expressing my opinion that human rights abuses are wrong I'll never know.

I know China has many problems, as none of us try to deny.
But you need to know what's the purpose of the original poster. And basically you are just "adding sauce to his cooking".
If my former posts offended you I apologize. But you are also offending us by standing beside this famous troll.
He registered at least dozens of usernames just trying to arouse flames in Chinese forum.
Hope this time I make it clear. I am doing experiment and it is really a long day so I cannot write long as usual.

Well I apologize too, I had no Idea he was a famous troll. I was just wondering why people were being so nasty to him. I don't neccessarily think it was a good idea for him to start this thread. I was trying to be more 'neutral' than on either side of the debate.

Well I apologize too, I had no Idea he was a famous troll. I was just wondering why people were being so nasty to him. I don't neccessarily think it was a good idea for him to start this thread. I was trying to be more 'neutral' than on either side of the debate.
Nice to see we didn't lose another foreign friend. :)
Never mind, he's already get banned. He didn't live long as last time though. But I'm sure he will be back this week. :D
As your concerns about these issues, just to let you know, some posters in this thread are not Chinese, like z0rg, WhiteMagick and maybe Minotaur, if I remembered correctly. They seem to have a real "neutral" view.
Thanks.

Ok...


Sorry if anyone took what I was saying the wrong way.

Ok...


Sorry if anyone took what I was saying the wrong way.

Mr Smart is not wrong talking about China's problems, but he's using some infamous organization (Falungong) as his evidence. That says alot about the western media hype and how pathetic and ignorant the westerns are under those medias.

Living in US for 8 years, now I feel "Brainwash" is a word which can be used more on the westerns than on the Chinese.

Don't make such huge generalizations. Alot of us Americans hate our own media. I think all media is incredibly biased. It's not just 'The Dreaded West' :sleepy:

The notoriously liberal American media is not to be trusted. Take it with a grain of salt.

Is it really you, Sean?

Why do you hate liberals so much? I don't get it.

In my honest opinion, conservative media is worse. I don't want to pick a fight with you, okay...it's just that (if you're really Sean Hannity) I find your show Sean & Combs very one-sided and/or close-minded because if one of your t.v. guests has an opinion and/or fact (real fact, mis-informed fact) that you do not share...you seem not to listen to his/her justification but continue to distract and/or disturb him/her...

Sorry if I had to bring this up...no hard feelings...but please be more open-minded next time. :)

Mr Smart has raised some valid points.

Why was he banned?

From the literatures given by Falun Gong organization, it is obvious to me that Falun Gong is a cult (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult), not just physical meditation organization as it often claimed. The brainwash by cult can be a very powerful force. In the Chinese history of the mid of 19th century, there was a Taiping Rebellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_rebellion) which used cult as driving force. I personally believe that the rebellion movement was one of reasons that weakened China in the last 150 years. About the same time of Taiping rebellion war, Japan successfully went through Meiji Restoration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_Restoration) which made Japan stronger than China. Falun Gong had millions of members in China, which Chinese communist government sees it as potential threat to the social stability from the lessons of Chinese history. Since the social stability and economic development are the top priorities of the Chinese communist government, it naturally has to crack down the Falun Gong.

In the recent American history, there were several terrible events with cults including People’s Temple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples_Temple) in which 913 people died. More recently, FBI relentlessly sieged Branch Davidian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_Davidian) in Waco, Texas, which led to the massacre of 76 people. So the cult problem is not only happening in China but also in USA.

I like liberals, but I don't subscribe to their immoral world views. Some of my best friends are liberals, but we don't talk politics because it's bad for our relationship.

Mr. Smart has raised some valid issues as well as our Chinese friends. Although China's human rights record is deplorable, I do agree that Falun Gong is a cult which should be eliminated like Scientology. In this area, the American government is deficient. We need to crack down on cults like China does and put Scientologists and others of their ilk out of business.

I think China and America can learn from each other. They are both great nations with great problems. We need to learn to work together instead of against each other.

China does do many things right, but torture and enslavement are never justified. Sure it wasn't right of Mr. Smart to make this thread. I can see how anyone who is Chinese may get offended, but you're still treating him pretty nastily.


If we are mature people, we should be able to discuss our countries shortcomings, because personally, I find alot of it interesting. But when people throw the words 'Dumbass' and 'troll' around it just ruins everything.


At least 78 people died in southern Thailand after being arrested and loaded into army trucks following Monday's clashes with security forces.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3954587.stm

This just happened in October 2004. If this happened in China, imagine what would the western countries say? Must be another XXXX Massacre and Mr. XXXXX would add this as an evidence for bashing China even 20 years later.

i think there should seriously be a live-and-let live attitude with the West and China. China does not bash the West for what they no, nor do they bash the U.S. for attacking foreign countries. Everybody does bad things. Like Jesus said, he who is without sin cast the first stone. China does bad things so does everyone else. But to demonize China for repressing human rights while torturing and raiding Iraqis makes me wanna puke.

Israel is a good example of this. You do not hear Israelis condemning the Chinese for human rights violations. Israel knows that it commits "crimes against humanity" but just last month, Israeli army units massacred civilian women and children.

Point is, everyone does bad things. We leave you alone and you leave us alone.

^^ I think the action taken by Thai gov't is justified in that they are fighting separists. And it is good that int'l community showed understanding for such tradegy.

But what you are referring is true that west has no understanding at all when it comes to China. They are only interested in sabotaging, disintegrating and collapsing China. Those issues of Tibet and FLG simly do not worth arguing.

Everyone who talks about China's political or social issues should consider the nation's history and cultural effects. Basically, a well-educated person can easily tell that that Mr. S? must be a western kid who is too fragile to accept China's rise. I think in reality he must be a very sad kid.

Mr Smart has raised some valid points.

Why was he banned?

Maybe he was banned because he wanted to express his displeasure that the Chinese don't seek the approval of the West to breath their air.

Unless a certain country has perfect human rights record, no one has the right to criticize China, its simply non of other people's concern and China is doing just fine.
Western countries should learn to keep their noses out of other people's issues.

At least 78 people died in southern Thailand after being arrested and loaded into army trucks following Monday's clashes with security forces.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3954587.stm


Your point? So there's political corruption in Thailand too, there is everywhere. No one said there wasn't.

Your point? So there's political corruption in Thailand too, there is everywhere. No one said there wasn't.

The point is Americans don't care about human rights. If you ignore the crime in one country but whine about it in another, it means human rights isn't the issue or the concern but is just an excuse to cover-up more selfish motivations, i.e. racism and/or nationalism. If you really cared, why do you ignore it in other places especially in countries that the West does have leverage? And to think that everyone has to stop and follow the West blindly whenever it beckons is the height of arrogance. As if the West knows what's more important for everyone and expects the world the embrace and follow at a instant. Sounds like Westerners think they're gods to be followed and worshipped. Interesting that the countries that do worship Westerners as gods have their human rights abuses ignored while the ones don't see Westerners as gods are the ones always under scrutiny.

As long as the mojority of a country are satisfied with stutas quo, it will be a successful country. CHina may have the most problems of the world, but as long as most of her people love her, understand her, believe in her, that's enough...

The point is Americans don't care about human rights. If you ignore the crime in one country but whine about it in another, it means human rights isn't the issue or the concern but is just an excuse to cover-up more selfish motivations, i.e. racism and/or nationalism. If you really cared, why do you ignore it in other places especially in countries that the West does have leverage? And to think that everyone has to stop and follow the West blindly whenever it beckons is the height of arrogance. As if the West knows what's more important for everyone and expects the world the embrace and follow at a instant. Sounds like Westerners think they're gods to be followed and worshipped. Interesting that the countries that do worship Westerners as gods have their human rights abuses ignored while the ones don't see Westerners as gods are the ones always under scrutiny.

What an absolutely absurd statement.

1. Who says Americans don't care about human rights?
The EU, USA, Australia, NZ and Canada have the least human rights abuses of any countries per capita. Is that not caring?

2. Racism and Nationalism!? China is more Nationalistic that most. And you can't tell me there are no prejudices against foriegners in China. When I was there this summer with a group there was a black kid from Africa (Not America) on my trip and he recieved nasty stares and comments all the time.

3. Who are you to say we all think we're gods? Are you actually stupid enough to judge a country by it's government? If you're one of those people I won't even bother to argue with you.

4. If you read any of the forum rules, there's no ultra-nationalism or ultra-provincialism or xenophobia allowed. Basically because it's absolutely absurd and just annoying to everyone else.

If you really hate the west keep that to yourself. Even on an anti-west section of the forums.

As long as the mojority of a country are satisfied with stutas quo, it will be a successful country. CHina may have the most problems of the world, but as long as most of her people love her, understand her, believe in her, that's enough...


Sure, and there's no reason you shouldn't love China. It's your country and you should love it. But there's no reason to look down on other nations (Not directing that at you).

What an absolutely absurd statement.

1. Who says Americans don't care about human rights?
The EU, USA, Australia, NZ and Canada have the least human rights abuses of any countries per capita. Is that not caring?

2. Racism and Nationalism!? China is more Nationalistic that most. And you can't tell me there are no prejudices against foriegners in China. When I was there this summer with a group there was a black kid from Africa (Not America) on my trip and he recieved nasty stares and comments all the time.

3. Who are you to say we all think we're gods? Are you actually stupid enough to judge a country by it's government? If you're one of those people I won't even bother to argue with you.

4. If you read any of the forum rules, there's no ultra-nationalism or ultra-provincialism or xenophobia allowed. Basically because it's absolutely absurd and just annoying to everyone else.

If you really hate the west keep that to yourself. Even on an anti-west section of the forums.

1. Your inconsistent actions say you don't care about human rights. Why don't you answer the question why are some countries' human rights violations ignored by the West? If you actually cared, no one in the world who's human rights were being violated would be ignored. You can't even give a straight answer because the truth is most likely racist and nationalistic in nature. I highly doubt you were ever in China. You don't think I can endlessly tells stories of Western racism? The Chinese don't lynch blacks, burn black children in churches, intentionally give them diseases, keel haul them behind trucks only to stop when there are no body parts left to drag, or enslave them. And you ignorantly think the Chinese are worse? Any racism towards Africans in China was taught by the West. Just like when the Japanese notoriously say something racist about blacks, it's verbatim from what Western racists say. That doesn't happen without influence.

The Chinese have a history of "Africans" positively portrayed in Chinese folklore. Traditionally "black" is look upon in reverence. When the first Chinese explorers visited Africa and saw Africans for the first time, long before European explorers, that started a flurry of Chinese stories of heroic "Africans" figures in Chinese folklore. Ever been to a Chinese New Year parade? You'll see an African as one of the legendary Eight Immortals. I don't doubt there is racism in China but unlike the West where it is cultural, in China it was either born from your teachings when you imperialists occupied China or was a result of long oppression from foreign occupiers like yourselves. And did you know the most popular Western celebrities in China are all black. They are far more well known in China that WASP celebrities. African-American sports athletes sell more of their endorsed products in China than Yao Ming's. When Kobe Byrant visited Shanghai for an appearance, there were so many fans crowding the streets that business actually froze for the day. Kobe couldn't get to where he was going so his sponsors cancelled the appearance causing a riot on the streets. So what did you say about Chinese being more nationalistic and racist than WASPs? Did you forget that Westerners enslaved Africans while the Chinese never got involved in the African slave trade even though Westerners tried to sell African slaves in China. Oh by the way, when Chinese explorers visited Africa for the first time, they left them in peace unlike the West who raped, pillaged, and plundered never leaving for over 400 years until communism rose to stir the world against Western colonialism. It wasn't Western compassion and humanity or finally coming to your senses that what you did was wrong that made you decolonize. It was fear of communists using your historical oppression of the Third World as leverage against you during the Cold War.

China was one of the first countries to support and recognize Nelson Mandela and the African National Congress as heroes while Americans were one of the last choosing most of that time to see him as a terrorist while looking upon white apartheid Afrikaners as innocent victims.

Of course you don't abuse human rights of your own kind. You do them to minorities and in other people's countries. Do I have to remind you about 75 million Native Americans slaughtered in the US alone? That'll surely keep them quiet so it'll look like no abuses happen. How about the fact the countries of the West are the only people in human history that literally tried to take over the world? You can't say that for anyone else. Oh, BTW, Western movies and books of fiction with charaters like Ming, the Merciless and FuManchu plotting to takeover the world don't count as real.

2. The whole world is more accepting of Western culture than the other way around. Like the Chinese aren't exposed to American movies or play Western music and see McDonald's and Disney and every other Western icon on the streets of China? The problem with Western popular culture embraced by China is that you also export your racism like stated before.

3. When you think the world has to stop at every Westerners' whim and work at what you see as a priority, i.e. human rights abuse in China, you do think you're gods. As this thread has shown, posters including you get angry at all the resistance to what Westerners think should be the priority in China which is your perception of human rights. Did you know in the Third World, most people see economic stabilty and eliminating poverty as a human right and in fact the most important right? The West doesn't see that as a human right because economics is the no.1 weapon used against countries they don't like. Isolate countries with embargos and sanctions and then hope that will stir the population into rebellion thus forcing regime change. But with sanctions and embargos, the innocent are the first to starve while dictators are the last to suffer. Love that logic. Force innocent people into starvation and famine and hope some them will be strong enough to force a coup against all the people with the power. Then one has to bring up the hypocrisy that Western countries have and still support dictators around the world. Since there are still embargoes and sanctions in the world, that shows it doesn't work. But Westerners continue to use failed tactics out of ego and refuse to admit they can be wrong. Just like a god.

4. Yeah and this is a forum about skyscrapers and not about your petty nationalistic insecurities in the world. Why would a Westerner bring up China's human rights abuse in a forum about buildings? Is it because the unprecedented massive construction that's happening in China is an indicator of China's power in the future and to you that's undeserving because of China's human rights abuse? Well I've got news for you. China's rise to power is the most peaceful in history compared to everyone elses. The West and their allied powers raped, pillaged, and plundered all of the world to get where they are today. The West took and stole everything they wanted while China is spurring Third World economies around the world buying resources at the highest prices on the market in history.

So all of these disingenuous arguments about Chinese human rights abuse is really about fear of the West losing supremacy and power in the world. China doesn't know it's place behind the West. The countries that do know their place get a pass on their human rights abuses.

Action speaks louder than words. You're argument pointing to Western human rights groups calling China the worst is simply a lie by your own actions. The West is bombing countries today, i.e. Iraq, in the name of human rights abuse. If China is the worst, why hasn't the West started a war with China? The cry for human rights makes preemptive action more acceptable unlike the real reasons... Iraq and the Middle East for control of the world oil supply and for China... to stop the end of Western dominion over the world. Look at all those human rights abuses motivated by self-serving interests put into that context. You don't bomb China because China can bomb back.

Ironic, that no one is allowed to challenge you and then you demand people not post if they don't agree and support your points. Interesting that the ones that hide behind human rights are the first to deny them from others.

BTW, you don't answer the questions or as you say, "bother to argue," because it's called denial of the truth.

Jo48, you should really take a look at South Korea up until the 90's. If you really care about human rights violations, you would be appalled. But since it is never really about human rights, no one cares that hundreds were massacred in Kwangju in 1980 with flamethrowers and bayonets. No one cares about the thousands of people that Park Chung Hee tortured and killed. No one cares about how suspected communists were shot and their corpses hung from a helicopter flown from village to village to deter potential defectors. No one cares that South Korea has one of the worst human rights records in modern times. Not even the Koreans themselves, you know why? Because now, South Korea has become one of the wealthiest, most advanced countries in the world because of these measures. It was a horrible place to live back in the 50's, 60's, and even 70's. But because of intelligent but oppressive dictators, it rose from abject poverty to first world status. Compare what China is doing right now and you will see vast similarities. China is doing almost exactly what South Korea did four decades before. Only difference is, a powerful China will be large enough to effectively challenge the US.

1. Your inconsistent actions say you don't care about human rights. Why don't you answer the question why are some countries' human rights violations ignored by the West? If you actually cared, no one in the world who's human rights were being violated would be ignored. You can't even give a straight answer because the truth is most likely racist and nationalistic in nature. I highly doubt you were ever in China. You don't think I can endlessly tells stories of Western racism? The Chinese don't lynch blacks, burn black children in churches, intentionally give them diseases, keel haul them behind trucks only to stop when there are no body parts left to drag, or enslave them. And you ignorantly think the Chinese are worse? Any racism towards Africans in China was taught by the West. Just like when the Japanese notoriously say something racist about blacks, it's verbatim from what Western racists say. That doesn't happen without influence.

The Chinese have a history of "Africans" positively portrayed in Chinese folklore. Traditionally "black" is look upon in reverence. When the first Chinese explorers visited Africa and saw Africans for the first time, long before European explorers, that started a flurry of Chinese stories of heroic "Africans" figures in Chinese folklore. Ever been to a Chinese New Year parade? You'll see an African as one of the legendary Eight Immortals. I don't doubt there is racism in China but unlike the West where it is cultural, in China it was either born from your teachings when you imperialists occupied China or was a result of long oppression from foreign occupiers like yourselves. And did you know the most popular Western celebrities in China are all black. They are far more well known in China that WASP celebrities. African-American sports athletes sell more of their endorsed products in China than Yao Ming's. When Kobe Byrant visited Shanghai for an appearance, there were so many fans crowding the streets that business actually froze for the day. Kobe couldn't get to where he was going so his sponsors cancelled the appearance causing a riot on the streets. So what did you say about Chinese being more nationalistic and racist than WASPs? Did you forget that Westerners enslaved Africans while the Chinese never got involved in the African slave trade even though Westerners tried to sell African slaves in China. Oh by the way, when Chinese explorers visited Africa for the first time, they left them in peace unlike the West who raped, pillaged, and plundered never leaving for over 400 years until communism rose to stir the world against Western colonialism. It wasn't Western compassion and humanity or finally coming to your senses that what you did was wrong that made you decolonize. It was fear of communists using your historical oppression of the Third World as leverage against you during the Cold War.

China was one of the first countries to support and recognize Nelson Mandela and the African National Congress as heroes while Americans were one of the last choosing most of that time to see him as a terrorist while looking upon white apartheid Afrikaners as innocent victims.

Of course you don't abuse human rights of your own kind. You do them to minorities and in other people's countries. Do I have to remind you about 75 million Native Americans slaughtered in the US alone? That'll surely keep them quiet so it'll look like no abuses happen. How about the fact the countries of the West are the only people in human history that literally tried to take over the world? You can't say that for anyone else. Oh, BTW, Western movies and books of fiction with charaters like Ming, the Merciless and FuManchu plotting to takeover the world don't count as real.

2. The whole world is more accepting of Western culture than the other way around. Like the Chinese aren't exposed to American movies or play Western music and see McDonald's and Disney and every other Western icon on the streets of China? The problem with Western popular culture embraced by China is that you also export your racism like stated before.

3. When you think the world has to stop at every Westerners' whim and work at what you see as a priority, i.e. human rights abuse in China, you do think you're gods. As this thread has shown, posters including you get angry at all the resistance to what Westerners think should be the priority in China which is your perception of human rights. Did you know in the Third World, most people see economic stabilty and eliminating poverty as a human right and in fact the most important right? The West doesn't see that as a human right because economics is the no.1 weapon used against countries they don't like. Isolate countries with embargos and sanctions and then hope that will stir the population into rebellion thus forcing regime change. But with sanctions and embargos, the innocent are the first to starve while dictators are the last to suffer. Love that logic. Force innocent people into starvation and famine and hope some them will be strong enough to force a coup against all the people with the power. Then one has to bring up the hypocrisy that Western countries have and still support dictators around the world. Since there are still embargoes and sanctions in the world, that shows it doesn't work. But Westerners continue to use failed tactics out of ego and refuse to admit they can be wrong. Just like a god.

4. Yeah and this is a forum about skyscrapers and not about your petty nationalistic insecurities in the world. Why would a Westerner bring up China's human rights abuse in a forum about buildings? Is it because the unprecedented massive construction that's happening in China is an indicator of China's power in the future and to you that's undeserving because of China's human rights abuse? Well I've got news for you. China's rise to power is the most peaceful in history compared to everyone elses. The West and their allied powers raped, pillaged, and plundered all of the world to get where they are today. The West took and stole everything they wanted while China is spurring Third World economies around the world buying resources at the highest prices on the market in history.

So all of these disingenuous arguments about Chinese human rights abuse is really about fear of the West losing supremacy and power in the world. China doesn't know it's place behind the West. The countries that do know their place get a pass on their human rights abuses.

Action speaks louder than words. You're argument pointing to Western human rights groups calling China the worst is simply a lie by your own actions. The West is bombing countries today, i.e. Iraq, in the name of human rights abuse. If China is the worst, why hasn't the West started a war with China? The cry for human rights makes preemptive action more acceptable unlike the real reasons... Iraq and the Middle East for control of the world oil supply and for China... to stop the end of Western dominion over the world. Look at all those human rights abuses motivated by self-serving interests put into that context. You don't bomb China because China can bomb back.

Ironic, that no one is allowed to challenge you and then you demand people not post if they don't agree and support your points. Interesting that the ones that hide behind human rights are the first to deny them from others.

BTW, you don't answer the questions or as you say, "bother to argue," because it's called denial of the truth.


Very well said!!!

Minotaur, do you have any sources regarding "Western" nations trying to sell African slaves to China and Chinese stories of heroic "Africans" figures in Chinese folklore? I need more information for a project.

Thanks in advance!!

Did you know in the Third World, most people see economic stability and eliminating poverty as a human right and in fact the most important right?

Did you make a survey to say that ? I've never seen such a stupid argument, because democratic third-World's countries are poor, Dictatorship in china is justified ?

Can you tell me how many reports of Human Rights network international, of human Rights Watch, of Amnesty international have been written against China's government ?

Can you tell me how many reports of Human Rights network international, of human Rights Watch, of Amnesty international have been written against China's government ?

Oh for your westerner god's sake, stop bringing those laughable reports please. They are all written by westners to entertain themselves, and do not mean a damn thing to us. We witness what happen in China with our own eyes, and know perfectly well what's going on.

Think about what your lovely french said about Kwanju insident. Oh yeah, French at least did not send the fleet to help the massacre like US did, just maybe praised the SK gov't for their action.

So stop pretending your french are angels. You are just bothered by China's double digit growth, that's all.

中国是没人权，但别拿法轮功说事

Oh for your westerner god's sake, stop bringing those laughable reports please. They are all written by westners to entertain themselves, and do not mean a damn thing to us. We witness what happen in China with our own eyes, and know perfectly well what's going on.

Think about what your lovely french said about Kwanju insident. Oh yeah, French at least did not send the fleet to help the massacre like US did, just maybe praised the SK gov't for their action.

So stop pretending your french are angels. You are just bothered by China's double digit growth, that's all.


Where did i say french people are angels ? you need to learn to read, and why do you speak about economy, i don't see the link between a thread about Human Rights and the China's economy growth.

Just some Questions, Why wouldn't china be a democracy ? Why wouldn't china respect the human Rights ? it's impossible ? Why ?

Very well said!!!

Minotaur, do you have any sources regarding "Western" nations trying to sell African slaves to China and Chinese stories of heroic "Africans" figures in Chinese folklore? I need more information for a project.

Thanks in advance!!

I read books on early Chinese sea voyages. It's been a while since reading these but the one that stands out for me is "The Star Raft" by Philip Snow. That's the one that discusses China's relation with Africa before the European colonization through to the Cold War. The book mentions an account from China's archives where supposedly the Chinese witnessed first hand the European rape of Africa and it was this act of Western barbarism there that made China close its doors to the world. After reading that one, I tried doing a little reseach myself but it's hard to find more info about Chinese folklore in relation to Africa but basically in legend the Chinese believed in a group of divine beings that had black skin. So when Chinese explorers went to Africa for the first time, they thought Africans were these legendary people told in stories. So since then stories in folklore were told of their heroic tales. There's supposedly one that falls in line with other tales about a Chinese princess that was kidnapped by some evil warlord and the princess's family hires a "African" hero to go save her. I don't recall if it was this book, but I remember there was a picture of a Chinese painting of an "African" dressed in Chinese military armor with Chinese soldiers on horseback fighting off what I think was Mongols. It did not mention if it was a real account or just a picture of a Chinese tale.

Just some Questions, Why wouldn't china be a democracy ? Why wouldn't china respect the human Rights ? it's impossible ? Why ?
When you are forcing China to get so called "democracy" you are already a narrow minded westerner yourself. You overlooked a fact that single ideology is not applicable universally (cultures, history, developing status or population all matters) and sometimes using ideology differences as an excuse to question another country simply denies the truth of a complex world.

Just some Questions, Why wouldn't china be a democracy ? Why wouldn't china respect the human Rights ? it's impossible ? Why ?
Oh, it is not about democracy or human rights either, which are just the nice pretexts to achieve certain objectives, since as you said, french is not angel.

The fact is, China does not need a license or justification from west, clear enough? Oh wait, those poor Russian, they still have NOT got the license yet, after the tremendous economic disasters cause by shock therapy perscription from west.

So get the hell out of China politics. If you really have a problem, I guess you just have to send a troop to China. :)

Did you make a survey to say that ? I've never seen such a stupid argument, because democratic third-World's countries are poor, Dictatorship in china is justified ?

Can you tell me how many reports of Human Rights network international, of human Rights Watch, of Amnesty international have been written against China's government ?

Did I say it came from a survey? It is fact that impoverished people think about feeding their family and themselves first. They don't think about freedom of speech or democracy. First thing's first. Of course you wouldn't understand because you don't listen to others about what they want. You tell them what they want instead. You actually think people who are starving and poor want freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and democracy first? THEY WANT TO FEED THEIR FAMILIES!!! Interesting that during the tsunami relief effort that hit Southeast Asia, the victims cried for jobs and not for the photo-op for Westerners to get a picture of themselves giving poor people highly-eriched biscuits and blankets.

Of course economic rights is not important to a Westerner. Keeping people poor means having control over them. Where China knows economics is important first. Having a strong economy means independence from the West. That's why Westerners hate China because they don't want the Third World breaking their dependency on the West.

The Chinese have a saying... Give a man a fish and he can feed himself for a day. Teach a man to fish and he can feed his family for the rest of his life.

Keeping people poor keeps people dependent on you. It's the economy, stupid! It is fact that when people's economics rise so do their freedoms. Democracy doesn't guarantee economic stability. I can name countries on every continent that have democracies that don't have freedom and human rights. You're just coming from the height of Western arrogance and ignorance.

Asia is filled with nations that have denied democratic rights in favor of economics and are allies of the West. How do you explain that? I bet you're ignorant enough to believe that Taiwan has been a democracy for it's entire history. But the truth is it was a police state no different from China at the same time for most of its history and democracy was only recent event.

Or how about those British who out of the 156 years of occupation of Hong Kong never gave the people their democractic rights. Did you know the British imprisoned Chinese children for wanting the truth taught in schools about how Hong Kong was aquired through the Opium Wars and not the lie the British were teaching? Where's that reverence for human rights now? You don't sound any different from a dictator. It was only the last six years where they had their first taste of democracy but it wasn't a true one since the British always chose the governor. And look at how the people of Hong Kong had a higher standard of living than their British masters had back home.

Interesting that after the 1997 Asian Financial Crisis, the countries that embraced the advice of the West, their economies got worse. While the countries that didn't listen, got better.

You don't like the dictators of China? What makes you think the Chinese will be better off listening to the dictators of the West instead. Venezuela and Palestine are examples showing how the West could care less about democracy. When the people vote in leaders that don't favor the West, all of the sudden the West prefer the dictators that will do their bidding. More hypocrisy.

Dictatorship in china is justified ?

Nodobdy really cares how much do you hate the Chinese government. But don't call "dictatorship" something that it is not. Some Westerns think that every country which insn't a representative democracy is automatically a dictatorship, this is a little egocentric. They even call "dictators" some democratic leaders only because they don't like them (such as Venezuela's and Iran's presidents).

China IS NOT a dictatorship. Does it have a dictator? It is an authoritarian government, okay, but it is not a dictatorship. These two things are not the same. I'm not defending China here, I'm just telling ya a technical fact. Dictatorships have a number of characteristics and the Chinese government lacks most of them. For example, Hu Jintao cannot govern China more than two legislatures of 5 years, his mandate is limited by law while in many democracies this doesn't happen. A dictator is supposed to rule his country as longer as he desires and nobody can put him out of power by legal ways.

Plus, Hu hasn't an absolute power. In fact, the power of Hu is more limited than the power of many leaders of presidencialist democracies in the West. What's the role of the president of the PRC? He establishes general policies, especially in foreign affairs. But he doesn't look to make much more than the Pope: Much talk, little action. That's why the president of China uses to take more titles so that he can do something more, because the paper of the president it too little. Nothing to do with a dictator.

Then, if I'm not wrong Hu cannot legislate himself, China has a number of legislative bodies which make laws, and their members are not elected by Hu at all. On the other hand, many Western presidents have further power to promulgate "presidential decretes" than Hu.

Authoritarian? No doubt about that. Dictatorial? Not at all. In fact, many Western regimes are techically more dictatorial than China. If anybody dislikes it, I'm sorry I didn't write these basic tenants of political theory. The West did! :lol:

^^ Thanks z0rg. I frown with this labeling of "dictatorship", but I decided not to respond because it takes quite a lot of effort.

Well, it is not because someone like rem knows nothing about the facts, but they just spread the lies anyway. I have seen and heard this labeling numerous times. It is nice that you and rem coorperated to demonstrate a small tip of west-lie-iceberg.

Did you make a survey to say that ? I've never seen such a stupid argument, because democratic third-World's countries are poor, Dictatorship in china is justified ?

Can you tell me how many reports of Human Rights network international, of human Rights Watch, of Amnesty international have been written against China's government ?

Do you really care about China's Human Rights? Have you ever donated money to some funds like China's Human Rights Fund or China's Democracy Fund? If not, do it now!!! It's much more effective and fruitful than just paying some lip service here, which is basically equivalent to a smelly farting.

how about those British who out of the 156 years of occupation of Hong Kong never gave the people their democractic rights. Did you know the British imprisoned Chinese children for wanting the truth taught in schools about how Hong Kong was aquired through the Opium Wars and not the lie the British were teaching? Where's that reverence for human rights now?

This is an excellent point, actually.

I see a lot of propaganda detailing so-called human rights abuses occurring all over China, but it presents an extremely distorted image tailored for corporate and capitalist interests.

Authoritarian systems work, whether you like it or not.

I just got an idea of how to make this interesting thread going.

So let's just imagine, how can China get the "democracy license" from west.

Well of course free election is no question and foreign countries are just free to intervene. But this is just no doubt superficial and there are certainly hidden requirements that China has to meet. (Since as you can see, US are really mad at Chavez.....) So what are they?

The following are my list:

1. Tibet independence;

2. Taiwan independence;

3. Perhaps somewhere else independence....

4. China has to be plagued by the evil cult of Falun Gong (or sure FLG is well behaved in west, funny)

These are just what I can come up with and I am pretty sure that they are not enough.

Well Russia had struggled to get the license for quite a while but now it appears that not too many russian are interested.

So get the hell out of China's politics! :)

I just got an idea of how to make this interesting thread going.

So let's just imagine, how can China get the "democracy license" from west.

Well of course free election is no question and foreign countries are just free to intervene. But this is just no doubt superficial and there are certainly hidden requirements that China has to meet. (Since as you can see, US are really mad at Chavez.....) So what are they?

The following are my list:

1. Tibet independence;

2. Taiwan independence;

3. Perhaps somewhere else independence....

4. China has to be plagued by the evil cult of Falun Gong (or sure FLG is well behaved in west, funny)

These are just what I can come up with and I am pretty sure that they are not enough.

Well Russia had struggled to get the license for quite a while but now it appears that not too many russian are interested.

So get the hell out of China's politics! :)

Here's some more:

Freedom of religion actually means Christian rule over China.

Blind obedience to the West is essential to be a true believer in democracy and freedom.

China must enact laws where local laws don't apply to Westerners. Just like Japan, South Korea, and also the Phillipines, when the US had military bases, where if an American commits crimes like rape and/or murder of women and children, their criminals get special treatment if there's no media attention. The worst punishment would be deportation out of the country.

All Western crimes against humanity must never be spoken of or taught in schools ever.

You overlooked a fact that single ideology is not applicable universally.


I completely agree with you, that’s why the democracy is the best system, in a democracy there are a lot of ideologies, parties, candidates etc… whereas in a dictatorship, there’s only one vision and like you said a single ideology is not applicable universally.

Democracy is not an ideology,it is a system.


You actually think people who are starving and poor want freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and democracy first? THEY WANT TO FEED THEIR FAMILIES!!!



I didn't know democracy was responsible of the starvation, incredible, and so, if tomorrow China become a democracy, all the Chinese are going to starve? Think again….



Democracy doesn't guarantee economic stability.


Wow that’s new; look at the top ten List of countries by GDP per capita.
Luxembourg, Norway, United States, Ireland, Iceland, Denmark, Canada, Austria, Hong Kong, Switzerland. I see only Hong Kong which is not a democracy.


I can name countries on every continent that have democracies that don't have freedom and human rights. You're just coming from the height of Western arrogance and ignorance.


Actually, we can even name more countries on every continent that have not democracies that don't have freedom and human rights.




But the truth is it was a police state no different from China at the same time for most of its history and democracy was only recent event.


Yes but today it’s a democracy.


Do you really care about China's Human Rights? Have you ever donated money to some funds like China's Human Rights Fund or China's Democracy Fund? If not, do it now!!! It's much more effective and fruitful than just paying some lip service here, which is basically equivalent to a smelly farting.

you can't answer if you ask another question, but actually i think you don't want to answer.


When the people vote in leaders that don't favor the West, all of the sudden the West prefer the dictators that will do their bidding. More hypocrisy.


You mistake US' government for the West. you generalize all western people in thinking they form only one person. That's typical of the racists, but sorry for you, West is a melting pot of languages, cultures, traditions, religions etc.

If you really have a problem, I guess you just have to send a troop to China.

Oh and if you have a problem, i guess you just have to put me in a laogai, wow, i'm becoming as stupid as you, sorry for this meaningless sentence.


Nobody really cares how much do you hate the Chinese government.

So, What do you really want to say ? I don't have the right to speak, Who are you to say that ? you think you're God, or maybe you think you're a member of the chinese Censorship's administration.
Of course China isn't a dictatorship of a man. It's the dictatorship of a political party, The CPC.


Did you make a survey to say that ? posteb by me --------- Did I say it came from a survey? posted by Minotaur

That's why i ask you this question. :)

Rem, I want to ask you something. What do you think of the human rights violations of South Korea back in the 60's? Do you think it is justified? Please answer me directly. And then, lets match up the parallels with China. That is not an opinion. China is pretty much following the South Korean way to prosperity. Why? because it works! Authoritarian governments might seem brutal but please understand that a transition to democracy is inevitable. When that happens, ask the average Chinese whether all those years of oppression was worthwhile and all 1.3 billion will say yes. Just like how all 50 million south koreans agree that those brutal years under Park Chung Hee were necessary. Please dont bullshit about how democracies have higher GDP's so it makes it better. You are so fucking shallow. How about seeing the score for democracy vs. dictatorship in pulling a severely impoverished country into the developed world?

Democracy:
1. Iceland - massive U.S. aid plus small population

Dictatorship:
1. South Korea - Park Chung Hee was probably one of the most brutal dictators of the twentieth century
2. Taiwan - Chiang Kai-sek's police state
3. Singapore - Lee Kwan Yew's oppressive government
4. Spain - dictatorship of Franco
5. Japan - Meiji Restoration and subsequent industrialization

I'm not bashing on democracy. its not about which is better, but which suits what type of country. trying to impose democracy on countries that cannot handle it is like giving someone kemotherapy for heart disease. It just would not work. Democracy is an excellent form of government for a developed, industrialized country with a highly educated population. A dictatorship is an excellent form of government for a very impoverished country but resilient in its goal of becoming industrialized in less than a generation. Trust me, China will inevitably become a democracy like South Korea and Taiwan, and that day might not be so far away. But to impose democracy prematurely is a recipe for disaster. Sun Yatsen tried to do that early in the 20th century but failed miserably. The CHinese cannot afford to make such mistakes again

Rem, I want to ask you something. What do you think of the human rights violations of South Korea back in the 60's? Do you think it is justified? Please answer me directly

Sorry, i can't answer you because i don't know the 60's in South Korea.


. trying to impose democracy on countries that cannot handle it is like giving someone kemotherapy for heart disease.


I completely agree with you. you're totally right. The best example is Iraq. trying to impose democracy in this country has been a disaster.



Trust me, China will inevitably become a democracy like South Korea and Taiwan, and that day might not be so far away. But to impose democracy prematurely is a recipe for disaster.


I hope you're right.


Sun Yatsen tried to do that early in the 20th century but failed miserably. The CHinese cannot afford to make such mistakes again



it's not so easy. i don't want China become a democracy tomorrow, i know it will be long before this arrives, and we don't want to impose it, but when China's government use the censorship to shut people up, or when they send people in jail just because they criticized the CPC. it seems very difficult that China take the way of democracy.
And I hate to see some people, not you drunkenmunkey888, say : " Our government is good, all chinese are happy and if that's not the case, the dissidents have to go to prison. it's the national interest. "
these people are completely stupid and bad. But people who say that's necessary but the system is authoritarian and far from being perfect, i'm sometimes agree with them. That's all, and i would like to say chinese like europeans or americans aren't obligated to support their governments.
So when i'm "bashing" on China's government i don't attack Chinese people, you know i like pretty much this country, if i have to choose to go to only one asian country, i would choose China, japan is too modern and there's nothing very interesting, and they're not very friendly, South Korea too small , Mongolia too poor and empty, Taiwan i guess never, Vietnam maybe.. it's a nice place.

I didn't know democracy was responsible of the starvation, incredible, and so, if tomorrow China become a democracy, all the Chinese are going to starve? Think again….

The oldest loser trick in the book... When you know you're wrong, do the bait and switch routine. Your side is the one arguing democractic rights solves all problems. Now you're saying it doesn't.

Wow that’s new; look at the top ten List of countries by GDP per capita.

Look at all the countries that you ignore that are democratic and poor. And you also forget that the West through imperialism and colonialization got to where they are today by violating human rights around the world.

Actually, we can even name more countries on every continent that have not democracies that don't have freedom and human rights.

Again the bait and switch routine. Your side claims democratic countries don't violate human rights. No one claimed non-democratic countries don't. Just like a Westerner, when your argument fails, try to transfer your ignorance onto to the people destroying your arguments.

Yes but today it’s a democracy.

Again, you avoid all the points that expose your hypocrisy. Taiwan shows you don't care about democracy and human rights. Taiwan for most of its history was a police state and murdered journalists that didn't favor the government. That didn't seem to bother you just as long as Taiwan favored Western interests and not because of human rights. Just like the US abandoned Taiwan in favor of the communists just because China was against the Soviet Union. Where are those democratic and human rights principles now?

Taiwan only became "democratic" as a last desperate act to get the US on its side. The US told Taiwan to be democratic long ago but never listened. Besides, when the President of Taiwan stages fake assassination attempts to get sympathy votes or uses his power for corruption so his family can get rich, that's not a true democracy!

And look how you completely ignore and avoid the fact when you have a Western country like Great Britain in control of Hong Kong, you never cared one bit that they denied democratic and human rights to the people living there because it was to in the best self-interests of the British to do so.

You mistake US' government for the West. you generalize all western people in thinking they form only one person. That's typical of the racists, but sorry for you, West is a melting pot of languages, cultures, traditions, religions etc.

You're following the US and their propaganda lies. Yeah and you want to reap the rewards of US actions but when they fail, you cowardly distance yourself. Western countries are all controlled by Western Europeans. See a lot of anti-immigration in Europe these days. And since the US is in an anti-immigrant fervor as well, that's contradictory to the melting pot fantasy you lie about. Racists think they know what is best for the rest of the non-white world. The rest of the world never tried to take-over the world because of their belief in their racial supremacy unlike the West.

So, What do you really want to say ? I don't have the right to speak, Who are you to say that ? you think you're God, or maybe you think you're a member of the chinese Censorship's administration.

Trying to transfer your ills onto others? We know all Westerners think they're superior to everyone else and expect to be worshipped like gods.



BTW, you're not French at all are you? You're just one those French-hating Americans trying get people to think you're French so that all your ignorance and arrogance will be blamed on them. I even suspect you're one person using more than one identity in here. Your illogic and arrogance is very similar to the other ignorant posters lying about caring about human rights.

Originally Posted by Rem

it's not so easy. i don't want China become a democracy tomorrow, i know it will be long before this arrives, and we don't want to impose it, but when China's government use the censorship to shut people up, or when they send people in jail just because they criticized the CPC. it seems very difficult that China take the way of democracy


Well you since mentioned you don't know much about South Korea in the 60's, lemme tell you that in what you said in the quote above, the words China can be replaced by South Korea and it wouldve been perfectly applicable up until the 90's. People never bashed South Korea though, they just sort of pitied it. I was just wondering why people bash China for what theyre doing even though South Korea did exactly just that a couple of decades back. Why does South Korea get to censor media, send critics of the govt to jail, and massacre protestors yet get away with it? Why does the CCP receive a different reaction for the same actions? The answer is that SK was pretty much a tool of the US while China would not become the US's bitch. If you have a better explanation, I'd like to hear it.

Don't start talk about west imperialism, when PR China still is holding Tibet and Taiwan. Haven't you guys no self criticism at all. You just making a fool out of yourself and China when blaming all kind of pathetic things on the west.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c88/EasyPrey/DontFeedTheTroll.jpg

Let's sum up the truth here!

The fact is there are endless accounts that contradict and expose the hypocrisy of the false self-anointed champions of human rights. So that establishes that they don't care about anyone's democratic and human rights if they've shown they'll readily ignore others' and their own human rights violations at the drop of a dime. So why the lies? If their motives were altruistic in nature, they wouldn't have to lie. To lie is because the truth is ugly and purely serves the self-interests of the liar. Just like all oppressors, they try to get people to believe their self-interests are everyone's interests. So we have people dumb enough to think that just because they can utter the words that they stand for human rights and democracy, and then if a lightning bolt from the heavens doesn't strike them down or their tongue doesn't explode into flames, it must be true and they expect everyone in the world to obey their every command without question or challenge.

Don't start talk about west imperialism, when PR China still is holding Tibet and Taiwan. Haven't you guys no self criticism at all. You just making a fool out of yourself and China when blaming all kind of pathetic things on the west.

Indian-killers crying for Tibet?

New ID? Don't try the bait and switch bull. This thread started with the hypocrite West crying about Tibet.

Ironic that your new ID is Sioux crying about Tibet when you hypocrites killed over 75 million Native Americans. You pile on hypocrisy like all the bull.

Why does South Korea get to censor media, send critics of the govt to jail, and massacre protestors yet get away with it?


That's a very good question, you're right that's hypocritical but i'm going to try to give some answers, Maybe because Sk is not a member of the United Nations Security Council, Sk is a small country, it was in the 60's, at that time media coverage was less important than today, SK has changed in some years whereas China's government is the same for 57 years. Maybe because SK never killed millions of people. Sk was an ally of the United States, and during the Cold War the most important thing was to have a maximum of allies, democracy dictatorship, monarchy etc.. that didn't matter, at that time there was a single enemy, the communism. I don't know. there are a lot of reasons.


Oh, for the others, it's useless to say, i'm ignorant and arrogant, i am like all Westerners a stupid dumb ass etc.... I know already that and I would like to tell you i really appreciate your politeness and respect. but don't care about that. I know Chinese are not all like you, I'm not a racist like some people who generalize everything.

Vive la Chine et l'asie, terre d'ancienneté et de modernité, toujours plein de surprises...

Let's sum up the truth here!

The fact is there are endless accounts that contradict and expose the hypocrisy of the false self-anointed champions of human rights. So that establishes that they don't care about anyone's democratic and human rights if they've shown they'll readily ignore others' and their own human rights violations at the drop of a dime. So why the lies? If their motives were altruistic in nature, they wouldn't have to lie. To lie is because the truth is ugly and purely serves the self-interests of the liar. Just like all oppressors, they try to get people to believe their self-interests are everyone's interests. So we have people dumb enough to think that just because they can utter the words that they stand for human rights and democracy, and then if a lightning bolt from the heavens doesn't strike them down or their tongue doesn't explode into flames, it must be true and they expect everyone in the world to obey their every command without question or challenge.

I don't see anything wrong to watch the human rights in other countries to make the world a better place.

^^ I don't see anything wrong to watch the human rights in other countries to make the world a better place.

Like a true hypocrite. Yeah watching others and not your own, huh?

Indian-killers crying for Tibet?

New ID? Don't try the bait and switch bull. This thread started with the hypocrite West crying about Tibet.

Ironic that your new ID is Sioux crying about Tibet when you hypocrites killed over 75 million Native Americans. You pile on hypocrisy like all the bull.

Why is the Tibet an Taiwan so important for you. Is it because you are a Chinese and like your country to be imperialist. Sorry man. But what i have read here is Chinese people with no self criticism on their government, crying and accuse west somehow that they are a more modern society.
Either me or my great great or older great parents have killed any Indians. But many Anglo's tho.

And why is important for you to impose your humans rights lies when you never cared about them before.

I've never been to Tibet or oppressed a Tibetan, so by your logic I can't be accused of doing anything to a Tibetan just like you claim you can't be responsible for what happened to Native Americans. But unlike you I know for a fact that no one in my family ever did anything to a Tibetan ever in history.

More hypocrisy and bull piling on top of each other.

^^

I know you have nothing to do with the Chinese imperialism to Tibet and Taiwan, since your country not is a democracy.
Dude i'm either American or british.

^^

I know you have nothing to do with the Chinese imperialism to Tibet and Taiwan, since your country not is a democracy.
Dude i'm either American or british.

We need to talk about euporean imperialism in USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand first before we talk about Tibet. :)

I know you have nothing to do with the Chinese imperialism to Tibet and Taiwan, since your country not is a democracy.

Wow. That doesn't make any sense! Care to clarify?

And I do live in a democratic country. But we know that doesn't matter since you don't believe in democracy like in Venezuela where the election results don't meet with your approval so you want to eliminate a democratically elected president. So quit with lying about how you cherish democracy just like all the points that prove you don't care about human rights either.

Wow. That doesn't make any sense! Care to clarify?

And I do live in a democratic country. But we know that doesn't matter since you don't believe in democracy like in Venezuela where the election results don't meet with your approval so you want to eliminate a democratically elected president. So quit with lying about how you cherish democracy just like all the points that prove you don't care about human rights either.

It's because you need some Lutheran priests in your country :).

We need to talk about euporean imperialism in USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand first before we talk about Tibet. :)

So if they leave America, China will leave Tibet and Taiwan? Does that make any sense?

And wait a minute. Do you know how many Chinese there live in America, so shouldn't they go home to?

It's because you need some Lutheran priests in your country :).

You mean you want to export your child-molesters? More hypocrisy piling. You cry about Tibet when Christians think the whole has to embrace Christianity?

You mean you want to export your child-molesters? More hypocrisy piling. You cry about Tibet when Christians think the whole has to embrace Christianity?

I'm just answering to him. I don't know what kind of people who live in Venezuela. But democracy, Lutheran Christianity, and human rights works good together. That's why i told they need a Lutheran priest. I'm don't wanna force any one.
And it looks like China do anything to infect their culture to the Tibetans.

Sk was an ally of the United States, and during the Cold War the most important thing was to have a maximum of allies, democracy dictatorship, monarchy etc.. that didn't matter, at that time there was a single enemy, the communism

yes! it is not about human rights or anything like that. you just said it yourself! it is about gaining as many allies as possible no matter how bad their human rights record is. btw china never killed millions of people either. that is a gross exaggeration. maybe millions died from failed chinese economic policies but that wasnt intentional killing. and it sounds like youre trying to give SK a number of excuses for having a brutal dictatorship. i guess it is not really fair to blame ordinary westerners for not truly understanding the extent of brutality of SK's dictatorial regime because no one in western media/politics really bashes it. This is because when it was oppressive and cruel, it was too insignificant/poor to be detected on the international radar. When it became one of the most advanced/developed countries in the world, it already changed its oppressive ways and began to respect human rights.

Just understand that China is doing EXACTLY what SK was doing back in the day except the only difference is even at this stage of development, (which is comparable to where SK was in the late 60's in terms of living standards, GDP per capita, human development index, etc.) China is already big enough for the international community to notice, hence be afraid of.

But just like how SK had a happy ending, i am very confident that China will have the same. As far as democracy, it is projected to come naturally around 2020's - 2030's. For Taiwan, my prediction is that it will rejoin the PRC as a separate political party (or parties depending on how Kuomingtang and Mingjingtang decide to handle this. i have no idea about taiwan politics so forgive me for inaccuracies) after PRC transitions to democracy. As far as Tibet and Xinjiang, I can totally see a similar setup to what Great Britain with England, Wales, and Scotland.

You see Sioux and Rem, these current "issues" can be feasibly resolved and I personally believe they will be successfully resolved so that China and the West will be happy. And judging from precedents if a government as brutal and cruel as South Korea can transition to a democracy, there is no reason to believe China can't.

Yes i believe to China will get democracy. Specially when we live in this globalised world. It just a matter of time. I'm sure far most Chinese are good and loyal people.

I'm just answering to him. I don't know what kind of people who live in Venezuela. But democracy, Lutheran Christianity, and human rights works good together. That's why i told they need a Lutheran priest. I'm don't wanna force any one.
And it looks like China do anything to infect their culture to the Tibetans.

Here we go again just with human rights and democracy. You're gonna ignore historic crimes of the Christian Al Queda which is the bloodiest religion on Earth. Yeah more than Islam. And it seems like Westerners will do anything to infect their religion and culture onto the world like history has shown. Quit with the crocodile tears about Tibet. I always hear Christians call Buddhism a Devil's religion. You Christians would be destroying the Tibetan culture more efficently and dastardly if the Chinese weren't there. All those stories I hear of Christians going to Third World countries dangling food in front of starving people and they won't get to eat it unless they embrace Christianity. Sounds like you're worshipping the devil and not God.

So if they leave America, China will leave Tibet and Taiwan? Does that make any sense?

Yes that makes sense, because most, if not all, countries take land from other. The issue is to make it work. Live with it or send a troop.


And wait a minute. Do you know how many Chinese there live in America, so shouldn't they go home to?
Yes, and I am in America too. I would be happy to leave. :)

Here we go again just with human rights and democracy. You're gonna ignore historic crimes of the Christian Al Queda which is the bloodiest religion on Earth. Yeah more than Islam. And it seems like Westerners will do anything to infect their religion and culture onto the world like history has shown. Quit with the crocodile tears about Tibet. I always hear Christians call Buddhism a Devil's religion. You Christians would be destroying the Tibetan culture more efficently and dastardly if the Chinese weren't there. All those stories I hear of Christians going to Third World countries dangling food in front of starving people and they won't get to eat it unless they embrace Christianity. Sounds like you're worshipping the devil and not God.

What are you talking about. I'm a friendly Lutheran protestant, who care about human rights. Not a Roman catholic imperialist.
No it's the Chinese who are spreading their culture anywhere in the old Tibet. You would know that if you just cared a little about Tibet.
It seems like you don't know what you talking about.

Yes that makes sense, because most, if not all, countries take land from other. The issue is to make it work. Live with it or send a troop.


You were the one who just crying about imperialism from the west before. Can you see it in China now? That's why i started to say that it's pathetic to blame west for anything. Self criticism you now.

What are you talking about. I'm a friendly Lutheran protestant, who care about human rights. Not a Roman catholic imperialist.
No it's the Chinese who are spreading their culture anywhere in the old Tibet. You would know that if you just cared a little about Tibet.
It seems like you don't know what you talking about.

It's your delusion that Christians are peaceful people. The world doesn't see China acting militarily around the world. The Christians support US military actions like lying about the reasons for invading Iraq. All Christians support the actions of other Christians on non-Christians. That is a fact! And if you cared about Tibet you would do something wouldn't you? But all you do is spill bull crap out of those mouths of yours. You bombed Iraq because they violate human rights there? If China is worse, why haven't you bombed China? That's a question that will never be answered because the truth is the real reason has nothing to do with human rights and has everything to do with Christian plans of destroying non-Christians around the world including Tibet.

You were the one who just crying about imperialism from the west before. Can you see it in China now? That's why i started to say that it's pathetic to blame west for anything. Self criticism you now.

You are talking about different issue. China gov't is not taking advantage of anything, such as the native slaughter, the invasion of Northern Mexico, to sabotage USA.

The fact is, China respects the status quo, but the west does not, and tries everything to mess up China.

You were the one who just crying about imperialism from the west before. Can you see it in China now? That's why i started to say that it's pathetic to blame west for anything. Self criticism you now.

You're forgetting the most important thing, hypocrite! The Chinese don't at all go around the world expecting everyone to follow blindly without question or challenge because they think they know what is best. The Christians and the West do. So when you stand there all high and mighty thinking you have the right to dictate to the world, you're the one that opens yourself to be called a hypocrite and liar.

It's your delusion that Christians are peaceful people. The world doesn't see China acting militarily around the world. The Christians support US military actions like lying about the reasons for invading Iraq. All Christians support the actions of other Christians on non-Christians. That is a fact! And if you cared about Tibet you would do something wouldn't you? But all you do is spill bull crap out of those mouths of yours. You bombed Iraq because they violate human rights there? If China is worse, why haven't you bombed China? That's a question that will never be answered because the truth is the real reason has nothing to do with human rights and has everything to do with Christian plans of destroying non-Christians around the world including Tibet.

I think live in a fantasy world. Did you know that most Iraqis and Iraqis in other parts of the world, believe it was right to take off Saddam. Please don't lead this debate into Iraq, this would just be a never ending debate.
Again i say, don't come here and criticize the west for imperialism when China is doing the same right now to Tibet.

And if you think that Christians plans is to destroying mankind you must be a really fool. God bless you.

You are talking about different issue. China gov't is not taking advantage of anything, such as the native slaughter, the invasion of Northern Mexico, to sabotage USA.

The fact is, China respects the status quo, but the west does not, and tries everything to mess up China.

Still i dislike what Spanish did in Mexico 300 years ago. The world is so much different now.
Sabotage USA? what are you talking about. lol.

You make me tired. All i can say, you have no self criticism.

Look Sioux, like i said earlier in a post, chances are, Tibet and all the other autonomous regions would have a relationship with a then democratic China just the way Wales, Scotland, and North Ireland will with England. IMO, this is probably gonna happen around 2040-2050ish. By then, the whole region will be decently developed and industrialized. What do you think about this, Sioux and Rem?

You're forgetting the most important thing, hypocrite! The Chinese don't at all go around the world expecting everyone to follow blindly without question or challenge because they think they know what is best. The Christians and the West do. So when you stand there all high and mighty thinking you have the right to dictate to the world, you're the one that opens yourself to be called a hypocrite and liar.

You confuse yourself now. God bless you. Good night.

Look Sioux, like i said earlier in a post, chances are, Tibet and all the other autonomous regions would have a relationship with a then democratic China just the way Wales, Scotland, and North Ireland will with England. IMO, but based on economic and population growth trends, this is probably gonna happen around 2040-2050ish. By then, the whole region will be decently developed and industrialized. As for culture, the central government is actually making a conscious effort to preserve Tibet culture. By 2040, I'd say Lhasa for example will be a large, modern metropolis with a skyline and streetscape full of mid-rise offices and apartments in Tibetan style with maybe a CBD with skyscrapers in an inner suburb outside the city center. What do you think about this, Sioux and Rem?

I think live in a fantasy world. Did you know that most Iraqis and Iraqis in other parts of the world, believe it was right to take off Saddam. Please don't lead this debate into Iraq, this would just be a never ending debate.
Again i say, don't come here and criticize the west for imperialism when China is doing the same right now to Tibet.

And if you think that Christians plans is to destroying mankind you must be a really fool. God bless you.


But you didn't go into Iraq to take out Saddam. You went into it telling the world that Iraq was about to strike with nuclear weapons which was a lie. How many times have those excuses for invading Iraq have changed? Get a hint! If you keep changing the excuses, it means you're a liar!

Christians are planning to destroy the world. It's called Revelations! The world has to be destroyed in order to make way for the second coming of Jesus Christ. That's why neo-con chickenhawks that you love are begging for an all out war in the Middle East to spur on the end of the world. And you think what's happening Tibet is worse.? Don't see China cowardly bombing Tibetans from 30,000 feet like you in Iraq. What a hypocrite!