Buffalo and WNY forumers...others if interested.

There is continued talk of the Buffalo Bass Pro shops store at the former Aud in downtown Buffalo

Bass Pro is looking to demolish the War Memorial Aud and construct a store on the site just feet from the Buffalo river and Lake Erie.

for more information...refer to the Buffalo Developments thread or simply ask.

its a YES of NO poll :)

If they wanted to build something else on the site, or had a good idea on how to keep the Aud, I wouldn't be for a Bass Pro shop, but since they don't, just build the damn thing.

tear down the aud and get a move on with this thing...

Why don't they just make a decision already? I don't care either way. Talking about for years and years is just stupid though.

I say yes. Mostly because they are building a hotel on the site of the old Buffalo News Building.

Are you kidding me, why in the hell would you not build it, Buffalo needs this, the Aud is an eyesore and completely useless, if it falls through then that's a joke!! Niagara Falls doesn't have to be the only tourist destination here, the entire area, "both sides of the border" can stand to benefit from each other.

I say yes. Mostly because they are building a hotel on the site of the old Buffalo News Building.

did I miss something?

Go for it, just let me inside the aud to photograph it before it comes down.

Seriously I don't get it, $66 million to bring a fishing store, a FISHING STORE for Christ sake, and allow them to demolish a historical significant building. Maybe I could understand $66 million to make the Aud into a new shopping centre for various new stores. But really it's like there's fish healthy enough to eat in Lake Erie anyways.

There has got to be a better way to spend $66 million to bring back some vibrancy to the downtown.

There's a Bass Pro at Vaughan Mills Mall and it's a giant log house.

But really the biggest problem I see is how easily the city is allowing the Aud to be demolished plus ontop of that the city is paying to demolish it.

Pros:
A giant anchor store to kickoff other planned developement of Inner Harbor
New business on Main St. soon to have Pedestrian Mall removed.
Reuse of dormant site (Aud unused for 10 years)
Great Lakes Museum included.
Involves other infrastructure improvements to the area.
Possible connection to Canal project.
Possible Hotel
Promises of Millions of visitors every year.
Increased sales tax for city.

Cons:
Project involves $66 million in public funds
Nothing has been finalized yet. No details.
Bass Pro has asked to have final say in what businesses locate near them
Bass Pro has indicated they want open parking for RV's
Are customer projections legitimate? Will millions really come to this store?
Since project announced 2 years ago, nearby Bass Pro planned for Pittsburgh
No property tax for city (lease deal for $1 per year or something like that...)


Really, THE main problem here is that we don't have the details and nothing's been finalized after 2 years of discussion.
The physical design is unknown (especially now that they won't use the Aud)
We don't know if the project will be urban-friendly (all their other stores are suburban)
We don't know if the other infrastructure improvements will happen (intermodal hub is supposedly cancelled)
We don't know for sure yet if they will build a hotel
We don't know if they will connect with the canal project


I've only been to a Bass Pro once - outside Dallas. It was nice... had a cool aquarium and a little creek with fish and ducks inside. But I'd never bother going back. Once was enough for curiosity sake. Will the Buffalo one be bigger and more exciting than the Dallas one? If yes, how so?

With all these unknowns, I can't say I support it or not. If all those unknowns come out positive then this could be a truly great project for downtown. But until more details are released I have to wait and see...

a few notes...

Has anyone driven down the lower terrace in the last few years...I can see where millions are going to have to be spent on roads and foundations under the skyway.

I dont get the RV thing...I would like to see more about boats and fishing, like a pool or a boat marina...something really different.

the city should lay down its demands...logical and simple restrictions...and if Bass Pro cant agree this will save us the Aud for another project or perhaps they will meet us half way and work with the city, unlike the Senecas.

If this is done right, the city, the company and the tourism industry will gain, there are many options and alot of money to be made.

Haha.. I wonder who voted no.

The Pittsburgh Bass Pro is almost a non-starter, its to be built almost an hour south of Downtown Pittsburgh, so Northern PA residents would still choose Buffalo over the Pitt store because of drive time...

Haha.. I wonder who voted no.

Starts with a D and ends with an Exan?

the stores are pretty cool (we have one here in houston) but i hope buffalo isn't expecting it to be a major boost to the local economy. but if it means replacing an eyesore and ecourage further development then i would say yeah...build it.

Starts with a D and ends with an Exan?


That would be my wild guess. I say build it. Its better than nothing. Who knows, maybe they will have a design nice enough for even DT to get behind.

Haha.. I wonder who voted no.
Even funnier, is the idiot that posted this (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=9858728&postcount=1957), at the same time, doesn't think it should be built. Evidently this person finds this whole debate humorous, yet at the same time thinks the failure is the 'right' thing to do.

Man, there are some real mental cases around here.

I say build it. Its better than nothing.

...and that, ladies and gentlemen, has been Buffalo's problem for the past 30 years.

Better to be mired in mediocrity than to have nothing, right?

Sigh... I want so much better.

...and that, ladies and gentlemen, has been Buffalo's problem for the past 30 years.
I could swear there were other reasons. Some of which you have championed yourself?

Well, you get what I mean. The "we'll take what we can get" mentality is a dangerous one.

I wonder how a proposed Wal-Mart in the in the city would go over? Afterall, it would be tax revenue...

Of course yes, just make sure it is appropriately designed. Is it the saviour of downtown- nope. Will it kick-start further development at the foot of Main- that's what we're being led to believe. Let's hope so. Better a Bass Pro than a casino.

Well, you get what I mean. The "we'll take what we can get" mentality is a dangerous one.
I'm not disagreeing.

(Speaking of dangerous, look at whose company you're in in this poll! :eek: Not saying you should change your mind, it's your opinion and I respect that. Just - how's it feel to have the highest IQ in the group?)


I wonder how a proposed Wal-Mart in the in the city would go over? Afterall, it would be tax revenue...
Now that's a dangerous analogy, though I see your point. I just hope you're being facetious. Wal-Mart is in a class by itself. I'm sure on paper, a Wal-Mart would be a boon to many of the towns which have rejected them. Fortunately common sense occasionally prevails.

Of course yes, just make sure it is appropriately designed. Is it the saviour of downtown- nope. Will it kick-start further development at the foot of Main- that's what we're being led to believe. Let's hope so. Better a Bass Pro than a casino.
Amen. :bow: :rock:

Though officially I still say I'm not for or against. The devil is in the details, so to speak; unfortunately many of these details require the thing to be built in order to be found out. Risk.

A Bass Pro would do well, I'm sure. Yes, build it! :yes:

Well if a Baltimoran supports it, maybe it's ok? :)

I think they should give every tax payer in erie county a free fishing rod and lure.

then Buffalo would be the fish capital of the world...imagine that smell! :)

I never knew such a place existed... always thought your local Main Street bait and tackle shop was the beginning and end of the fishing retail industry.

Whaddayaknow.

fishermen are nuts... they need a home depot sized store

just make sure it is appropriately designed
Isn't that the basic problem though? We can't make sure anything is appropriately designed... from the Casino to HealthNow to BassPro to the CourtHouse... All have major design flaws when it comes to good Urban development but then we just get stuck with whatever.

They are all completely out of our control. So... No, we can't just make sure it is appropriately designed.

;)

"I wonder how a proposed Wal-Mart in the in the city would go over? Afterall, it would be tax revenue..."

Walmart is not better than nothing. Bass Pro is better than nothing. Obviously I have low standards, but Walmart is where I draw the line. I initially was against the Bass Pro, but there have been a lot of good points made and ive changed my view on it. Also, im pretty confident that the city leaderns wont allow a suburban style store with a huge parking lot to be built in the CBD. There is no way that could happen, right?


Shit.

...and that, ladies and gentlemen, has been Buffalo's problem for the past 30 years.

Better to be mired in mediocrity than to have nothing, right?

Sigh... I want so much better.

ahhh and ladies and gentlemen, this has been Buffalo's problem for the past 30 years. There has to always be someone who hates outside money, development, and would rather have a vacant building for the next 50 years than have an upscale retail store in the retail district.

Originally Posted by DallasTexan
I wonder how a proposed Wal-Mart in the in the city would go over? Afterall, it would be tax revenue...

I guess we'll see ;)

And by " ;) " I don't mean "gotcha" I mean literally we'll see.

ahhh and ladies and gentlemen, this has been Buffalo's problem for the past 30 years. There has to always be someone who hates outside money, development, and would rather have a vacant building for the next 50 years than have an upscale retail store in the retail district.

Yes, I hate development. Grrrrr!

It's sad to see Buffalonians sell their souls for any type of development.

Well, Jesus Christ himself hasn't yet come down to Buffalo to spruce up downtown with his own holy hands and urban planning genius, now has he?

Soul-selling can be justified.

I thought Issa was our new Jesus?

Walmart downtown...they have them in London UK

and that city is beating Nashville, Birmingham and Dallas in every aspect of urbinity. :)

Would Walmart build downtown...no way, they need more parking that even downtown Buffalo can provide...they want no taxes...which we all know Buffalo needs like a crack head needs crack.

Walmart would simply find it too costly to build a box store in the CBD, this does not rule out Bailey, Hertel or South Park...but IMO, NEVER the CBD.

I think Jesus gave up and moved to North Carolina back in '94. He said he'd come back though. I wonder if he showed up for the Old Home Week...

But we are getting the Dalai Lama in a couple weeks!! ;)
DALAI :llama:

jesus has a place at Midway :)

On the topic of parking lots, I was "Google Earthing" last night out of boredom instead of going to bed (which I might add is killing me now), and I think I may have found a city which has a potential to kick Buffalo's ass in terms of CBD parking lots. Not to say we don't have a serious problem (the crackwhore analogy was very apt), and maybe not in gross area (I wasn't that bored), but in terms of contiguous coverage:

<drumroll, please>

Raleigh, NC

Maybe ROCguy can enlighten us further.

Yeah, well, ROCguy admits he never goes to downtown Raleigh, so I doubt he'd be much of a help ;)

The difference between Raleigh and Buffalo's parking lots is that at one time, Buffalo had stuff on them... whereas Raleigh's just had grass and log cabins on them :D

DT, too bad you only wish that was the case.

Raleigh too razed many of its buildings, (though smaller) in favor of parking lots, I guess we are finding it wasn't a Buffalo thing after all. :)

Walmart downtown...they have them in London UK

and that city is beating Nashville, Birmingham and Dallas in every aspect of urbinity. :)

Would Walmart build downtown...no way, they need more parking that even downtown Buffalo can provide...they want no taxes...which we all know Buffalo needs like a crack head needs crack.

Walmart would simply find it too costly to build a box store in the CBD, this does not rule out Bailey, Hertel or South Park...but IMO, NEVER the CBD.


if im not mistaken there is now a walmart in manhattan.

The difference between Raleigh and Buffalo's parking lots is that at one time, Buffalo had stuff on them... whereas Raleigh's just had grass and log cabins on them :D
Perhaps that's the case with Raleigh (as it was in Buffalo), but I think that would have signified a horrible use of prime real estate. Not to mention a bigger jab at Raleigh than Buffalo by implying there was no significant development within a couple thousand feet of the CBD for well over a hundred years between the early 1800s or whenever and when the lots were "built".

Denver had perhaps a bigger glut as well, as I'm remembering from a thread posted in the USUI forum. They evidently have some pretty ambitious plans going on for them though, which is good.

if im not mistaken there is now a walmart in manhattan.

Not a single Walmart in any of the five boroughs, they refuse to give in to NYC employment standards, so there won't be one for a long time. Something's probably gonna give eventually, though.

There is a K-Mart in Manhattan, and two Targets in really out-of-the-way areas of Queens and Brooklyn.

OKC's Bass Pro sales fall short of consultant projections
Brian Brus. Journal Record. Oklahoma City, Okla.: Apr 19, 2005. pg. 1

Bass Pro Shops in Bricktown reported sales of $33.5 million for 2004, about $5 million short of earlier projections, officials reported.
We had hoped that Bass Pro sales would be what the consultant projected, said JoeVan Bullard, executive director of the Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority.
The company reports its monthly sales figures to the authority. Bullard called the low numbers discouraging.
The goal overall of creating more retail traffic in the Bricktown area, that is coming along, he said. And I think when we get additional housing units built downtown, that will combine with the Bass Pro effort, the (Harkins) theater effort, those other things that are located in Lower Bricktown, and hopefully we can bring more retail traffic to the downtown area.
The Oklahoma City Council made the decision to lure Bass Pro Shops to Bricktown in May 2002 in the hopes of establishing an anchor tenant to stimulate private development for the district. The city leased the building to Bass Pro through the Urban Renewal Authority.
In mid-2003, the council approved the city's funding of an additional $1.7 million to cover Bass Pro's construction costs near Interstate 40, modifying the agreement so that Bass Pro would pay back the money through an increase of 8 percent in its annual lease rate, from $610,000 to $710,000. The adjustment brought the city's share of investment to about $19 million.
A report prepared in 2002 by the consultant firm Peckham, Guyton, Albers and Viets, or PGAV Inc., just ahead of the Oklahoma City Council's approval that year to subsidize the business, revealed the company projected annual sales of $38.5 million.
The company also projected sales growth of about 2.5 percent each year for the first four years.
The sales reported for 2004 were short about $5 million of that mark, Urban Renewal Authority records show. And a December-to- December comparison of 2003 and 2004 shows a 20 percent drop.
Bass Pro corporate officials could not be reached for comment.

DT, too bad you only wish that was the case.

Raleigh too razed many of its buildings, (though smaller) in favor of parking lots, I guess we are finding it wasn't a Buffalo thing after all. :)

Only an idiot would believe urban renewal only happened in Buffalo.

Raleigh razed many of the buildings in its core because many of the old buildings were single family residential in nature. In 1900, the city had a population of only 13,000 - hardly a large city by any stretch of the imagination.

they refuse to give in to NYC employment standards, so there won't be one for a long time.
Good for them.

I refuse to give in to their standards for product quality (irrespective of their labor and business policies which I also hate), therefore I'll never set foot in one if they build one across the street and run everyone else out of business.
Only an idiot would believe urban renewal happened in Buffalo.
Then I suppose those "suburban" developments on William and Genesee and others that you claim to hate mean nothing to you? Seems to be a form of urban renewal to me...

And if we didn't have any, it's probably because Rockefeller used it all up building that abominable monument to government in Albany. Indisputably the epitome of urban renewal in the US. Eat your heart out, we got it all.
Raleigh razed many of the buildings in its core because many of the old buildings were single family residential in nature. In 1900, the city had a population of only 13,000 - hardly a large city by any stretch of the imagination.
And replaced them with parking lots. Or with something of similar or higher density which were eventually replaced with parking lots. I fail to see the difference here. And 13,000 population will generally still cover a land area bigger than Raleigh's current CBD. I'm sure those 13,000 weren't living in sprawling tenements, rather low density housing as you said. I also doubt that the city was so forward thinking so as to raze these properties and hold the vacant land knowing that in 50 or whatever years that the demand for parking space would be so great. That would be Buffalo's forward-thinking avenue, and even they don't do that.

I should have known the anti-Buffalo crowd would seize on the parking lot comments. Geesh, I'm sorry I brought it up. Go on thinking the physics of everything were soooo different.

I think its a great idea to build it right there on the water front. Lots of boaters and fishermen and fisherwomen will love that. You would have to be a silly goose to think bringing people to the city is a bad thing. Rednecks need a place to spend money too. I hope they build a walmart next to it. that would probably save buffalo. yup. But im not a silly goose. So its a good thing they are bringing here. lol

Then I suppose those "suburban" developments on William and Genesee and others that you claim to hate mean nothing to you? Seems to be a form of urban renewal to me...

And if we didn't have any, it's probably because Rockefeller used it all up building that abominable monument to government in Albany. Indisputably the epitome of urban renewal in the US. Eat your heart out, we got it all.

Oops, I made a typo. I corrected my reply.

And replaced them with parking lots. Or with something of similar or higher density which were eventually replaced with parking lots. I fail to see the difference here. And 13,000 population will generally still cover a land area bigger than Raleigh's current CBD. I'm sure those 13,000 weren't living in sprawling tenements, rather low density housing as you said. I also doubt that the city was so forward thinking so as to raze these properties and hold the vacant land knowing that in 50 or whatever years that the demand for parking space would be so great. That would be Buffalo's forward-thinking avenue, and even they don't do that.

I should have known the anti-Buffalo crowd would seize on the parking lot comments. Geesh, I'm sorry I brought it up. Go on thinking the physics of everything were soooo different.

It's not being anti-Buffalo at all. If you look at the satellite image, you'll see that single family homes surround Raleigh's CBD, and some even encroach into downtown itself. Raleigh never had a huge urban core because it was never an old city (obviously), and most of the buildings torn down in the CBD were of the single family nature - personally, I consider this to be much different than tearing down large office and retail buildings... but that's only m opinion. Buffalo's old gems were built to last - Raleigh's shotguns were not.

As for vacant land in the CBD, well... it's North Carolina. Check out Charlotte in 1974:

http://www.cmhpf.org/sky2.jpg

Oooof.

I hope they have an outdoor gun range at the Bass Pro...that will really get the fruitcakes jumping.

NMO = Silly Goose

I think we should put a 50 foot tall animatronic deer on the roof... or a giant Big Mouth Billy Bass!

http://static.userland.com/images/saenz/BillyBass.jpg

Imagine if we program it to chant "Let's go Buffalo!" during Sabres games! Fabulous.

why not...as long as we don't look like Nashville

Of course... crap like this isn't allowed. Ewwww.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i188/ariesjow/Places/SigModel7.jpg

Ghastly.

Of course... crap like this isn't allowed.
Hey, I never said it looked like crap. Call it tacky as I'm sure many would, but I actually like the art deco-ish sunburst (or whatever that's called). (Unless it's just going to be some massive, texture-less sheet aluminum cutout, in which case I'll say it sucks.)

I even "selected" it as one of three "prototypes" for which I think (personally) would look best as a somewhat scaled down tower in Buffalo.

BTW that Charlotte picture is strange looking - what's with all that vacant land? I'll say it doesn't look good or bad, just strange. Plus I just like old photos of cities.

Of course... crap like this isn't allowed. Ewwww.

What kind of stupid "skyscraper" is that?? It's only 4 feet tall!!

(sorry, just saw Zoolander again.) ;)

Time for Plan B? -- City considers other options for Pyramid as Bass Pro Shops drags feet; [Final Edition]
David Williams / williams@commercialappealcom. The Commercial Appeal. Memphis, Tenn.: Sep 3, 2006. pg. D.1

It's been said that, "The charm of fishing is that it is the pursuit of that which is elusive but attainable, a perpetual series of occasions for hope."
The quote has been attributed to "Anonymous" and John Buchan, First Baron Tweedsmuir of Enfield. But we suspect Robert Lipscomb.
As the city's chief financial officer and the man trying to coax Bass Pro Shops to fully commit to The Pyramid project, he's doubtless had such thoughts.
More than six months after the big splash of Bass Pro's announcement of a $100 million-plus outdoors mega-store at the vacant arena, there's no final contract and no deadline for one.
More than six months after a company press release crowed, "Bass Pro Shops Coming to the Memphis Pyramid," it's still about pursuit and hope - and, increasingly, the what-if thoughts of a Plan B.
"There are some things shaping up," Lipscomb says of a backup plan. "I'm not at liberty to divulge those, because people we're talking to have asked for some kind of confidentiality.
"You would always have to have a Plan B. I would think any business person, any logical person, would say on a project of this magnitude, you would have to have a Plan B."
Even so, Lipscomb remains committed to Plan A, so much so that he didn't give Bass Pro a deadline to
commit when meeting last week with company president Jim Hagale.
Lipscomb's patience with the Springfield, Mo.-based outdoors retailer could be explained logically enough. Bass Pro, he says, is "clearly head and shoulders above any opportunity."
Which is to say, there's a question of leverage - or lack thereof - on the Memphis end of the line.
City Council chairwoman TaJuan Stout Mitchell agreed with Lipscomb's approach, saying, "For us not to be a little patient would be foolish. But I do think it's always wise for us to have a Plan B - and, really, a Plan C."
Those possibilities could include a movie production company, given that Village Roadshow Pictures, the company behind "The Matrix," is said to be in talks to open a production facility here. The Pyramid already has served as a movie soundstage, for local filmmaker Craig Brewer's "Black Snake Moan."
"The option of trying to lure the movie studio here sounds promising," Mitchell said.
As a movie production facility, The Pyramid would lack the drawing power of Big Retail, although Rey Flemings, president of the Memphis Music Foundation, said in June that a prospective movie company, which he wouldn't identify, could spend $250 million on productions over five years.
Or, Plan B could be a variation on Plan A - another big-box store, given that national consultants recommended major retail, with its economic impact and regional drawing power. Attempts to reach Cabela's, a rival of Bass Pro, were unsuccessful.
Or it could be an indoor theme park, as proposed by local marketing executive Greg Ericson, whose partners include philanthropist Becky Wilson and Greg Hnedak of Hnedak Bobo Group architects.
Ericson is talking with Bass Pro about a partnership, but also says his group could go it alone.
"We would definitely like to have Bass Pro as a partner in the Pyramid development," Ericson says, "but if they end up pulling out, we are ready to move forward with both funding and developing the entire project.
"Our group is confident we can fund this project upwards of $100 million."
But Ericson would like to see a timetable set: "Our group needs to have something concrete decided within the next two to three months, and signed well before the end of the year."
For now, though, the city and county are focusing on Bass Pro. They pursue, with the goal of a contractual guarantee from the company. They hope it happens - and soon - while also looking for fallback options that don't seem like fallback options.
"We've had offers for churches," Lipscomb says, but adds, "It meets weekly, OK? There's very little economic benefit to that."
Early on, there was an offer to sell the building to a group that would convert it to federal office space. Demolition was suggested too.
But Lipscomb said, "What I'm committed to is finding the absolute highest and best use for the citizens - the maximum economic benefit."
Bass Pro - which attracts 4 million annual visitors to its Springfield store - has been deemed the highest and best use of all.
That's why there was such a big splash on Feb. 24, when the project was announced.
After more than six months have passed with little progress, though, how long is too long? A month? The end of the year? Feb. 24, 2007 ?
"In my mind, we have a deadline," Lipscomb said. "But I don't want to negotiate this deal in the paper.
"At some point, there will be an end game."

Birmingham's been waiting two years for theirs as well... this company likes to take their time.

Really?

What was is the location/design of the proposed Birmingham store?

A crappy log cabin in a lifestyle center in the suburbs, lol.

Fortunately, the developer is also in talks to bring in the area's first Neiman Marcus.

Well at least that makes more sense to put it in the suburbs.

If Buffalo’s proposed store ever gets built, it should go in the suburbs, maybe even a place like Batavia, along the Thruway, where the market for hunting & game stuff is. Doesn’t belong downtown. Along Memphis, I think Buffalo’s about the only place with plans for these downtown. Everywhere else, there out in the sticks.

It makes no sense for city residents to have to go out to the Walden Galleria to find any decent retail, while suburban & rural residents would be driving their Winnebago’s & pickups into Buffalo for hunting & fishing supplies. It’s not like their going to be riding the light rail line back with their new hunting rifles!

That’s great that B-Ham might get a Neiman-Marcus. That’s really what Buffalo should be trying to do is work on attracting some first-class retail. Might be difficult to get a N-M around Buffalo. But at least a Macy’s or Nordstrom’s along with Borders or Barnes & Noble is what’s really needed to bring shoppers downtown. And a lot would be riding the light rail down.

Looks like Memphis is finally beginning to think about Plan B. So, just in case this deal falls apart, Buffalo might be well advised to do start doing the same. And not a Cabela's!

I too think Batavia would be an excellent location - it'd be in the middle of Buffalo and Rochester and could serve both markets.

But then you're oversaturating the Rochester "market" with your store in Auburn, and that would be 2 of them just 80 miles apart. Though either way you have 3 within 200 miles. I don't know.

I still don't understand the draw, but I'm not much for "outdoor" activities either so I probably wouldn't.

are you kidding me...Batavia is putting up on hell of a battle to keep out SUPER Walmart...we have a Walmart, but the people (minority) say it will kill local businesses (Thats Albany's job) so stupid...

If I was Bass Pro...I would build in Buffalo and NEVER consider Batavia.

If it was a Pizza supply distributor...yes, hunting and fishing NO.