Cebú Heritage Watch [Archive] - Page 25

sanvalente

August 18th, 2008, 01:52 AM

Mga Bai,

Looking at the old pic above reminded me of my discussion last Saturday with Dr. Resil
Mojares .. Naa diay advantage kung smoker ka... you get to meet people nga smokers pod during seminar breaks and still discuss the seminar in relation to other topics he he he. Our discussion went around the old photograph sources and where to get it.. yes,
there seems to have a concern/problem on this one...

Btw, the Hambin/USC- sponsored Doing Family History fora last Saturday was indeed a
success! Congratulations! Na hunong ug na klaro na jud ang cige namong issue sa apo
ni veloso regarding their ancestry. I got to meet personally Ka Bino, ang Bantayanon,
Slemarken, Lord Carnal, and of course the famous Archaeologue. Indeed my privilege
you meet you mga bai...

Going back to old pictures, maybe you have already thought about this before but the
plan is:

Each and everyone of us will contribute old (digitize) picture not necessarily Cebu.
Each picture should have a caption/description and a verifiable source or link. We
decide who will be the librarian and such other functions like editorial board, verification
and etc. Am sure this will not be costly because we are in cyberspace and our library
is found in our laptops.

Am sure kung daghan ta then daghan na pod ang ma kolekta maybe in six months.
We meet after that and decide if there is a need to organize a group just for this
purpose alone then create that database then decide among ourselves if we donate that
to an institution like CSC/etc. With this database of old pictures, the next job is to verify and edit its caption/description ... if the group will decide to donate then that
will be our kabilin or share to our common passion and your names will be there perma-
nently.

On the other hand, if the group decides not to donate, instead make our own cds and
sell it then we can have a common fund for the next project or research, who knows
that money will fund you when you go to the National Archives or National Museum
or the archives in Spain, USA/etc. One concern 'tho is the legal aspect of copyright,
we can consult our lawyer friends out there esp when the pictures are copyrighted.

Now, with that database, if somebody will ask for a poster-size or for a gallery print with
frame then that would be an additional service...

I am a photographer in my spare time (film pa to kaniadto) and somewhere along
the way I got bored with the usual subjects like portraiture, landscape, etc (even
glamor photography and nudity).. I refocus what I wanted and found out that I
love old photographs .. and the rest is history. I can imagine before asking permission
to take reproductions of all the pictures in Casa Gorordo and some old families in
Cebu/etc... but it was quite expensive then until the digicams came in.

Plenty of things that can be done if we are a group... unsa inyong mga
hunahuna mga bai?

sanvalente

August 18th, 2008, 01:52 AM

archaeologue

August 18th, 2008, 04:33 AM

archaeologue

August 18th, 2008, 04:33 AM

archaeologue

August 18th, 2008, 04:36 AM

murag tae na sa kabayo... Obviously the Fuente Rotunda wasn't there yet (and so are the roads, probably) so the fountain stood on a big piece of land where animals were left to graze. :banana:

maypang tae na-picturan pa...

:lol::lol::lol:

archaeologue

August 18th, 2008, 04:36 AM

goleyson

August 18th, 2008, 09:22 AM

these old post cards were reprinted?

by the way, karon pako na Thomas Hendrick died of cholera. :) ihas... btw, where is he burried? who was the bishop then who prayed to the Lady of Guadalupe so the epidemic may come to an end?

goleyson

August 18th, 2008, 09:22 AM

Ka_Bino

August 18th, 2008, 10:49 AM

from the "ang sugbo kaniadto" postcards

Fuente de Osmeña, ca 1915

http://images.raunil.multiply.com/image/4/photos/21/600x600/10/postcard-10.jpg?et=8UpU2NIt1zijK29Aa7bxMQ&nmid=110894370

There was a story of the Murder In Fuente, mention in Nyora Conching's Book..

She naver named the Lady..

Court letigation was long..

But Jaime Pecornell has amazing Ghost Story to that Murder..

The LAdy who lives in Sanciangco area, after the murder had occured was seen entering thier house and kiss her sleeping child

Ka_Bino

August 18th, 2008, 10:49 AM

Ka_Bino

August 18th, 2008, 01:10 PM

Larsian

by: Darby Dunn

‘Sa’man? Larsian?

If you have not heard of the word Larsian, then you probably haven't been around Cebu. Larsian is one of Cebu's most prominent eating havens, one of the few that passed the test of time. Located at the uptown area near Fuente Osmeña and Chong Hua Hospital, Larsian’s general location offers a myriad of scenes that is undeniably CEBUANO in charm.

Fuente Osmeña for one is a fountain landmark honoring one of the country’s Presidents, Sergio Osmeña Sr., who hailed from the Island of Cebu. Also commonplace around Larsian are children urging you to buy one of their Sampaguita necklaces as you eat your food.

A true-blue Cebuana, it was only a few years ago that I noticed I know very little of the history of Larsian, this place that I have come to love not only for its food, but for the many memories that happened there. I then asked my mother who told me the place used to be a restaurant in the 70's called Larsian, which somehow retained its name long after the restaurant itself. I passed the information to my friends who argued that wasn’t true, because what they knew was that Larsian was a combination of two names. Little did I know that my mother and friends were both correct. Larsian was an eatery in the early 70's that derived its name from the owner's (Col. Alvino Mondarez) mother named Pilar and her twin sister, Siana. Put Pilar and Siana together and you get Larsian.

Today Larsian is a place lined with a number of barbecue stands offering similar barbecue selections. Among the selections are: chicken - wings, thigh, skin, breast, feet or intestine; pork – pork liver, chorizo, tocino; seafood like squid and fish and a lot more. You get to select any of those and hand them over to the one in charge to be cooked. You are then asked how many puso (hanging rice) you want. The waiting usually takes 10 – 15 minutes.

If you allow me to take a little trip back in the past: the old Larsian set-up show tables lined up either inside the little stores or outside near a corner street. The common decorations inside were outdated calendars featuring scantily clad women, some Christmas lights and ceiling fans on low ceilings, a set-up that I personally miss.

Just recently Larsian has been transferred to another location, albeit maybe just ten paces away from the old one (yes, ten steps), and renamed The New Larsian. The new set-up features a more organized and cleaner look with uniform tables and stalls. Very little has changed, the food selection is the same as it should be and the Sampaguita vendors are still around to either bother or charm you depending on what type of predisposition you are keen to.

Larsian is neutral ground - loved by the rich and poor alike, the young and old, the popular and the not so popular, the boisterous and the meek, the poetic and unsympathetic – a place where people go to not for luxury but for the food and mere experience. It opens from late afternoon up until dawn.

‘Sa’man? Larsian?
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff84/suroyta/mike%20cullinane/DSC02166.jpg
Vip, GSB, and Mike Cullinane

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff84/suroyta/mike%20cullinane/DSC02171-1.jpg
Mike Cullinane enjoying his Chicken
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff84/suroyta/mike%20cullinane/DSC02162.jpg
Txting Joy Gera that we are at LARSIAN

Ka_Bino

August 18th, 2008, 01:10 PM

archaeologue

August 18th, 2008, 04:26 PM

There was a story of the Murder In Fuente, mention in Nyora Conching's Book..

The lady was never named..

Court litigation was long..

But Jaime Pecornell has an amazing Ghost Story related to this murder..

The Lady lived in Sanciangco area; after the murder had occured, she was seen entering their house and kissing her sleeping child

i think i wrote about this when i was still writing for Deja Vu (remember the Sunstar weekend section signed by Ybarra?)...

also, this sad event, reported in Nueva Fuerza issues of June 24, 1915 and July 15, 1915, is recounted in Concepcion Briones' book "Life in Old Parian"...

the young married woman, Carmina Brisas-Emir, lived in Parian with her child as well as he mother and sister...she and her lover, a guy named Santillan, were killed sometime on March 21, 1915, if i remember correctly...the accused was the scion of an Indian (Bombay) family, the Jureidinis, who was in love with the girl...but the girl was already taken by a man named Santillan...the case of a jilted lover.
something like that...

archaeologue

August 18th, 2008, 04:26 PM

SleMarKen

August 18th, 2008, 08:19 PM

shot shot man si padre:cheers:....

@archaeologue, drinks on the house or kandila na?

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/jbersales/museosugbo7.jpg

markiiboi of slemarken

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/jbersales/skyscrapercity7.jpg

SleMarKen

August 18th, 2008, 08:19 PM

archaeologue

August 19th, 2008, 01:54 AM

[QUOTE=SleMarKen;24162162]shot shot man si padre:cheers:....

@archaeologue, drinks on the house or kandila na?

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/jbersales/museosugbo7.jpg

kinadila na haha....but yes, he drank red wine later...drinks were on the house of course. :cheers:

archaeologue

August 19th, 2008, 01:54 AM

Ka_Bino

August 19th, 2008, 06:07 AM

i think i wrote about this when i was still writing for Deja Vu (remember the Sunstar weekend section signed by Ybarra?)...

also, this sad event, reported in Nueva Fuerza issues of June 24, 1915 and July 15, 1915, is recounted in Concepcion Briones' book "Life in Old Parian"...

the young married woman, Carmina Brisas-Emir, lived in Parian with her child as well as he mother and sister...she and her lover, a guy named Santillan, were killed sometime on March 21, 1915, if i remember correctly...the accused was the scion of an Indian (Bombay) family, the Jureidinis, who was in love with the girl...but the girl was already taken by a man named Santillan...the case of a jilted lover.
something like that...

Lingaw nga paminawon how Don Jaime retold the story, as if he was there to document it..

there are always unsolve crimes the history left us..

and its so much fun remembering them...

@Archaeologue, Bantayanon unsa pay unsolve crimes sa sugbu sa karaang panahon

Ka_Bino

August 19th, 2008, 06:07 AM

Ka_Bino

August 19th, 2008, 06:15 AM

Monday, August 18, 2008
Plugged: ‘Here’s what happened here’
By Isolde D. Amante Of Sun.Star Cebu

TWO weeks ago, the American historian Michael Cullinane came upon “a whole bundle” of records that, he hopes, will reveal new information and insights about why the principalia of San Nicolas joined the revolution of Tres de Abril.

Cullinane already knows this subject better than most Cebuanos, but the process of uncovering history, he says, “never ends.”

In an interview at the Casa Gorordo Museum, Dr. Cullinane shares his fascination with the origins of the Cebuano political elite, as well as Cebuano history in general—a scholarly interest he has sustained since he first visited the Philippines as a Peace Corps volunteer in the early 1970s.

The local stories and personalities that get overlooked in the national histories: they’re what fascinate Dr. Cullinane.

“Almost all the national events took place in Cebu also, but they took place differently. For instance, how did the Philippine-American War operate in Cebu?

The best book on that war, in my opinion, is the one by Resil Mojares. So why not use it? Teachers can give some introductory material about the Philippine-American War in general, and then, drawing from Resil’s work, say, ‘Here’s what happened here.’”

Cullinane serves as the associate director of the Center for Southeast Asian Studies at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and is credited with helping set up the Cebuano Studies Center at the University of San Carlos. Most recently, he wrote “Ilustrado Politics: Filipino Elite Responses to American Rule, 1898-1908.”

“There’s a tremendous amount of material that I, in my lifetime, cannot even come close to exhausting, so I’ve defined things that I do want to exhaust,” he says. “I’ve read all the notarial records from 1818 to 1873, and 1888 to 1903. My job on this trip was to close the gap, but it’s too much. So I’ll keep coming back until I do.”

Your current project is about the urban origins of the Cebuano political elite. Why is it important to distinguish between urban and rural bases of status?

The project itself deals a lot with the rural, but for me the interesting part about the origins of the Cebuano elite is, when it becomes political. When does politics begin?

The socioeconomic elite can be traced well back into the Spanish period, with the creation of a wealthy, landed, property-owning, educated elite—if you want to, you can take that back all the way to the second half of the 18th century, which is when my project starts. My project starts mga (around) 1750s to mga 1940.

From 1750 to the beginning of the 20th century, to 1900—the Spanish period—there are no politics per se, except in the municipio or the towns. But as politics begins to develop in those towns and begins to change, I like to focus on the late 19th century, and this is where the urban comes in. The urban elite of Cebu City moved out of the city and into the towns, and this is well-documented. I’ve spent 30 years documenting this move.

First of all, the Chinese mestizos of the Parian in the late 18th century develop a strong economic base that is largely driven by commerce, by property-owning, and by eventually taking their wealth and becoming educated. The first to be educated among the Chinese mestizos become priests and they’re quite dominant. Yet they’re completely unknown in Cebu or Philippine history. The second group is the people who begin to study law, the abogados, and there are quite a few of them but they tend not to be a part of either Cebu history or Philippine history. So I’m bringing forward those people.

The elite that emerges economically and socially is based first in the Parian, then it moves into the larger Cebu City. And the other thing that happens is, the port moves. The Parian ceases to be the port of Cebu. By the time the port of Cebu opens up to the world in 1860, it’s really the Lutaos district south of the fort, that strip of land between the southern part of the port and the Rio Pajina—which is the beginning of San Nicolas—that is the new port.

The elites—who are now making money through trade, owning bodegas in Cebu City, setting up houses and camarines in the Lutaos district— begin to realize that they can also make profit by owning land in the province, and they begin to move out of their urban enclave and acquire property throughout Cebu Province, though not in every town. The town that stands out in this regard is Carcar. If you look at the Carcar elite from the beginning of the 19th century, the municipal elite, what we call the principalia, then come back and look at it again at the end of the 19th century, you see a complete transformation. It starts out with some migrants from Bohol, and then you come back again and you find out that the elite is almost entirely controlled by Chinese mestizos from the Parian of Cebu: Noel, Osmeña, Velez, Cui, at iba pa. There’s the urban connection…

My effort is to look at Cebu City as a rapidly growing commercial center, the creation of wealth in it, and the moving of people from that city into the province, and then we come to the most exciting moment—of course there are a lot of stories along the way, including the revolution, which was huge—but the big moment for me is when the Americans arrive. What is it they want to do?

They want to introduce democracy.

Elections! Ex-a-a-ctly! We see the beginnings of a city and provincial politics. In 1901, every municipality in the Philippines votes for their presidente, their mayor. The electorate was expanded. It used to be just 13 people, the members of the principalia who would sit around and vote for the gobernadorcillo. Now it’s all the male elite: those who have obtained a high school education, those who own over a certain amount of land, those who previously held offices. All men. The women don’t vote until the Commonwealth Period. The three criteria for voting are all elite: wealth, education and office-holding. That sets the criteria for the right to the presidency. And it hasn’t changed since then.

Even the urban character doesn’t seem to have changed.

No. Throughout the American colonial period, most of the representatives of the seven districts of Cebu have their main home in Cebu City. In 1907, a Cuenco represents the fifth district of Cebu, where he never lived. That changes in the latter part of the period and today, it’s not so. You have groups like Durano, Abines, Martinez, who are not from Cebu City…

But at that time, all of these elites were comerciantes and major businessmen from Cebu City who spread out into the province and, in 1901, had no trouble going into politics—using elections as a mechanism for controlling rent-seeking, controlling the whole operation. They get it. They get it very quickly. The person who doesn’t have to move out of Cebu City is Don Sergio Osmeña. He chooses to run within the second district of Cebu, which included Cebu City at that time.

He was a master politician, unbelievably so. He wasn’t flashy, he wasn’t a big, outgoing sort of guy, but he moved…

(Manuel) Quezon sort of overshadowed him?

Yes, Quezon was the dynamic one. But if you read all the reports about Don Sergio in the early 20th century when he became powerful and never lost it until after World War II—which were special circumstances—he never lost an election in Cebu and he completely manipulated local politics. When he became governor in 1906, he took tours, he hand-shook, baby-kissed, and he went to every town in Cebu Province. He had no trouble winning the governorship during that time. He’s the one who invented Cebu politics and how it’s done. He invented the deal—you know, who’s going to get the school, where, or who’s going to get the road, where. And at the same time, he worked very effectively with the American colonial masters—in theory, the “masters.” I always considered Don Sergio to be the master, not the Americans.

In a way, the introduction of municipal elections became an incentive for the elite to just keep spreading outside the city?
At the end of 1901, you have the elections for municipal officials. The Americans tied that election closely to the next one, which occurred only a month later, in early 1902, for governor. The Americans’ institutional development connected the voting in the towns to the elections for provincial governor…all the provincial councilors were brought to Cebu City, and in closed quarters voted for governor. It wasn’t an open election

until around 1907 and then it became a more direct election for governor. But at the outset, you bring all the councilors together—you can imagine the politics that occurs in one place, over who should be governor. Julio Llorente was wiped out (in 1902) because Juan Climaco had an entire network of Chinese mestizos—including Don Sergio, Vicente Sotto, Dionisio Jakosalem, all these people—who helped him defeat Llorente.

The subsequent elections all linked municipal politics to provincial politics. It’s always been linked from the beginning, and this is critical. Every political leader who wants to aspire to be governor needs his municipal connections.

He needs to have links. It’s amazing to me that one of the first words that emerged in Filipino politics at the beginning of the 20th century is “lider.” It was the person who made the connection between the municipal and provincial officials; it was the one who managed the link.

Within every municipality, of course, “liders” developed too; the mayor needed his links to different barrios. You get what really is this network of patron-client relationships linked by a series of “liders”—these persons who negotiate between the (gubernatorial) candidate and the people where he’s trying to get votes from…

What provoked your interest in Philippine history?

For me, it’s a blessing that I have a career that allows me to be a historian, where I can live a decent, middle-class life in the United States. I get a good salary, I have good hours, I get time off for research. Being an academic in the United States gives you a tremendous advantage of being able to do this.

When I meet my fellow academics in the Philippines, I realize they have no time, they teach all the time, they hardly have any opportunities for research grants.

My interest started here in Cebu largely because I was a Peace Corps volunteer. I taught math at the Cebu Normal School. As it turned out, in graduate school I had the opportunity to go into Southeast Asian history. I like Southeast Asia, and I love being in the Philippines. I had many friends here by the time I started graduate school, and I had already started to learn Cebuano.

Also, it’s very clear that the history had not been very well written. Are there sources, you might ask? There are thousands!

You put together the availability of thousands of sources, the lack of a really clear history of the country, let alone of the region…and a Fulbright research grant that allowed me to study this.

It has been quite a blessing. I can make a life, I can make a career out of something I thoroughly enjoy, and hopefully I can make a contribution.

Ka_Bino

August 19th, 2008, 06:15 AM

habagatcentral1

August 19th, 2008, 06:27 AM

^^ Cool. Its a good news for local historians. It just puts to show that historiography need not be always at the core of the country.

I think these lectures of Dr.Culliane were the ones also made at Ateneo de Manila several weeks ago (which unfortunately I didn't attended due to weather and some unavoidable situations, bawi na lang ako next time).

habagatcentral1

August 19th, 2008, 06:27 AM

archaeologue

August 19th, 2008, 10:12 AM

@Archaeologue, Bantayanon unsa pay unsolve crimes sa sugbu sa karaang panahon

one unsolved crime is the beheading of Gov. Hilario Abellana, the martyr governor, sometime in February 1945 by the Japanese. his remains have never been found...there are so many unsolved crimes of the japanese occupation period....and the war crimes trials are a good material to get to know more about what happened to so many people during this time.

:bash:

archaeologue

August 19th, 2008, 10:12 AM

parianon

August 19th, 2008, 08:13 PM

parianon

August 19th, 2008, 08:13 PM

Mercato

August 20th, 2008, 02:03 AM

^^ Whose version of history? Why, of course the victorious americans and the victorious manila imperials... :lol:

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/jbersales/museosugbo10.jpg

Another partial view of Gallery IV, in the far end is the Sotero Cabahug Memorabilia.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/jbersales/museosugbo12.jpg

The Sotero Cabahug Memorabilia. Builder of the Capitol, he deserves a special place in the museum. Don Sotero (‘No Terong sa mga caraan) also had a full size statue surrounded by a beautiful fountain in front of the Mandaue City Hall back then; goodness, it was his hometown. (oi, dili intaun katong bag-o karon nga ngil-ad caayong waterfalls sa kilid sa city hall, no?)

But the powers that be a few years ago saw it fit to convert it into a parking lot. Mga wa'ay batasan ug wa'ay mga kabangkaagan, mga ignoranteng mapanamas-tamason sa historia sa caraang Mandaue...

Fuente de Osmeña, ca 1915

http://images.raunil.multiply.com/image/4/photos/21/600x600/10/postcard-10.jpg?et=8UpU2NIt1zijK29Aa7bxMQ&nmid=110894370 Ah! Mas caraan di-ay ang Fuente Osmena cumpara sa Capitolyo, caron pa sab ko, wa’a di-ay ko masayud niana. Tinuod tae sa caballo o tae sa kabaw/vaca apan sagdi lang. Sud-onga ug maau si Inday Guapa, o di ba? Magsuroy suroy lang nagsul-ob pa ug traje de boda... dressed to kill jud.

La-in pa’ay ato. Kinsa man caha ang nasayud palihug con ang Parish of Pardo still retains birth/ baptismal records or logbooks of baptisms and marriages dating from 1850 right up to World War II (1939-1940)? (Ug unya intaun Lord Carnal, dili buot pasabot nga natawo ko caniadtong 1850, ciertamente no). :lol:

Ensacto ba ang akong pamensar nga San Nicolas (ang akong tumong) is under the Parish of Pardo? Salamat caayo antemano... :cheers2:

Mercato

August 20th, 2008, 02:03 AM

Ang_Bantayanon

August 20th, 2008, 03:39 AM

I long for the day the church will admit to the error of suppressing the parian church. The Spanish colonialist have been overthrown, but the agustinian friars are still lording over, in a way, Cebu’s religious life, and to a great deal, still own vast properties.

For sure, they have a different version of the history of cebu. Their museum would certainly not make mention of Parian but how good a subject the natives were, and what great conquistadores and missionaries the Spanish soldiers and friars were.

Whose version of history for years have we known?

Gavin, is this you? :lol:

It may not be accurate to generalize that it was only the Augustinians who were responsible for the suppression of Parian Church... The bishop of Cebu is partly responsible (for its later demolition) because the Cathedral had to funnel the money of the rich Parian mestizos to be used to expand the Cathedral. I would like to refer you to a document entitled Ensanche dela Iglesia Catedral de Cebu. On the other hand, the Augustinians were shorn of their vast landholdings during the American era which is basically the bone of contention between the city and province of Cebu now -- the Banilad Friar Estates.

Welcome Parianon! :banana:

Ang_Bantayanon

August 20th, 2008, 03:39 AM

Ang_Bantayanon

August 20th, 2008, 03:46 AM

^^ Whose version of history? Why, of course the victorious americans and the victorious manila imperials... :lol:

Don Sotero (‘No Terong sa mga caraan) also had a full size statue surrounded by a beautiful fountain in front of the Mandaue City Hall back then; goodness, it was his hometown. (oi, dili intaun katong bag-o karon nga ngil-ad caayong waterfalls sa kilid sa city hall, no?)

But the powers that be back then saw it fit to convert it into a parking lot.

Ah! Mas caraan di-ay ang Fuente Osmena cumpara sa Capitolyo, caron pa sab ko, wa’a di-ay ko masayud niana.

La-in pa’ay ato. Kinsa man caha ang nasayud palihug con ang Parish of Pardo still retains birth/ baptismal records or logbooks of baptisms and marriages dating from 1850 right up to World War II (1939-1940)? (Ug unya intaun Lord Carnal, dili buot pasabot nga natawo ko caniadtong 1850, ciertamente no). :lol:

Ensacto ba ang akong pamensar nga San Nicolas (ang akong tumong) is under the Parish of Pardo? Salamat caayo antemano... :cheers2:

Mercato, the documents in the parish of El Pardo dates back to 1866, its founding date. Im sure they still have all libros canonicos in the parish archives 'til the present.

San Nicolas was a different parish. It was the matrix of El Pardo. There are no documents in San Nicolas left during the Spanish era 'til the war because they were reduced to ashes when the ancient church was bombed and reduced to rubble. :banana:

Ang_Bantayanon

August 20th, 2008, 03:46 AM

Mercato

August 20th, 2008, 05:16 AM

Mercato, the documents in the parish of El Pardo dates back to 1866, its founding date. Im sure they still have all libros canonicos in the parish archives 'til the present.

San Nicolas was a different parish. It was the matrix of El Pardo. There are no documents in San Nicolas left during the Spanish era 'til the war because they were reduced to ashes when the ancient church was bombed and reduced to rubble. :banana: Salamat.... Aww, mao ba? unya nganong nag-ambak ambak man na imong saguing dong con na-ugdaw na diay sa cayo intaun tiempo sa guerra? :cry:

Kinahanglan ko'g ayuda sa akong gi-research.. asa man caha ko manukad? :lol:

Mercato

August 20th, 2008, 05:16 AM

archaeologue

August 20th, 2008, 06:42 AM

Gavin, is this you? :lol:

It may not be accurate to generalize that it was only the Augustinians who were responsible for the suppression of Parian Church... The bishop of Cebu is partly responsible (for its later demolition) because the Cathedral had to funnel the money of the rich Parian mestizos to be used to expand the Cathedral. I would like to refer you to a document entitled Ensanche dela Iglesia Catedral de Cebu. On the other hand, the Augustinians were shorn of their vast landholdings during the American era which is basically the bone of contention between the city and province of Cebu now -- the Banilad Friar Estates.

Welcome Parianon! :banana:

Welcome Parianon!

It may also interest you to know that the first documents to certify to the problem of the wealth of Parian (surely the envy of the Augustinians) was done by the provincial superior of the Augustinians in the early 1830s, no other than Fray Julian Bermejo! it appears that he was probably one of the contravidas in the unfolding saga then of the fate of Parian....

archaeologue

August 20th, 2008, 06:42 AM

archaeologue

August 20th, 2008, 06:48 AM

archaeologue

August 20th, 2008, 06:48 AM

parianon

August 20th, 2008, 09:09 AM

It may not be accurate to generalize that it was only the Augustinians who were responsible for the suppression of Parian Church... The bishop of Cebu is partly responsible (for its later demolition) because the Cathedral had to funnel the money of the rich Parian mestizos to be used to expand the Cathedral. I would like to refer you to a document entitled Ensanche dela Iglesia Catedral de Cebu. On the other hand, the Augustinians were shorn of their vast landholdings during the American era which is basically the bone of contention between the city and province of Cebu now -- the Banilad Friar Estates.

Welcome Parianon! :

thanks for the information.

parianon

August 20th, 2008, 09:09 AM

parianon

August 20th, 2008, 09:49 AM

parianon

August 20th, 2008, 09:49 AM

Mercato

August 20th, 2008, 10:51 AM

so, asa na man caha ang caraang estastua ni 'No Terong karon? cung wala na na giatiman sa mandaue, ato na lang nang cuhaon aron matagaan ug igong pagtagad didto sa museo sugbo....
Mahitungod niana wa’a na caayo ko masinati. Segun sa mga sugilanon sa mga katigu’angan nahitabo ang pag convertir ug pagtangtang sa rebulto panahon sa mga Ouano – nila ni Pidong cuno. Ambot lang caha, hinaut unta nga wa’a guipatimbang sa mga guachinanggo para himuong scrap metal.

Duha ang puedeng masangpit bahin niana. Ang Cabahug clan nga ana-a pa ang ancestral house nila haduol sa Cortes Hospital. O bien ang current administration. Pero mangutana pud ko con unsa’ay nahibao’an sa mga katigu’angan con maka-lugar ko’g tawag.

Mercato

August 20th, 2008, 10:51 AM

Ang_Bantayanon

August 20th, 2008, 01:03 PM

i wouldnt be surprised if the cathedral was involved. by the time the magnificent stone and tile church of parian was erected and up to its demolition, the cathedral was built mainly of light materials. it was only towards the late 19th century that the present edifice was started to be built.

i would like to know who were running the cathedral?

Exactamente! For the longest time, the Cathedral of Cebu was just compared to a barn due to lack of funds so they had to suppress the parish then demolish the church of Parian so that the funds of the rich mestizo-sangleyes would be diverted to the construction of the Cathedral, which was supposed to be the mother-parish of the biggest diocese in the Philippines!

The Cathedral, of course, was run by the secular clergy, although the bishop during the suppression was an Augustinian, who, if I remember it right was Santos Gomez Marañon.

Well this is my take on the issue.. I may be wrong, though (unless proven otherwise by other documents) :banana:

Ang_Bantayanon

August 20th, 2008, 01:03 PM

Ang_Bantayanon

August 20th, 2008, 01:06 PM

Mahitungod niana wa’a na caayo ko masinati. Segun sa mga sugilanon sa mga katigu’angan nahitabo ang pag convertir ug pagtangtang sa rebulto panahon sa mga Ouano – nila ni Pidong cuno. Ambot lang caha, hinaut unta nga wa’a guipatimbang sa mga guachinanggo para himuong scrap metal.

Duha ang puedeng masangpit bahin niana. Ang Cabahug clan nga ana-a pa ang ancestral house nila haduol sa Cortes Hospital. O bien ang current administration. Pero mangutana pud ko con unsa’ay nahibao’an sa mga katigu’angan con maka-lugar ko’g tawag.

Tungod kay bag-o man ang administrasyon og kaaway sa naunang administrasyon, ilang gipaguba ang fountain nga gi-balik na karon isip usa ka karsada. Gipabalik pud nila ang estatwa ni Gob. Cabahug nga ginama sa usa ka national artist.

Well, this is a classic case of wasting people's hard-earned money.

Ang_Bantayanon

August 20th, 2008, 01:06 PM

archaeologue

August 20th, 2008, 01:26 PM

Duha ang puedeng masangpit bahin niana. Ang Cabahug clan nga ana-a pa ang ancestral house nila haduol sa Cortes Hospital. O bien ang current administration. Pero mangutana pud ko con unsa’ay nahibao’an sa mga katigu’angan con maka-lugar ko’g tawag.

Dako ang akong kalipay nga mosaysay kanatong tanan dinhi nga ako gayud dayon gitawagan si Ma'am Guadsky Cabahug-Latonio ug iyang gisaysay kanako nga ang rebulto ni Justice Sotero Cabahug gitagaan na usab ug dakong luna sa plaza pinaagi sa paningkamot sa mga bag-ong nagdumala sa mandaue karon ilalum ni halangdon Jonas Cortes.

Sa una kuno gipadaplin lang gyud intawn to, natago tungod adtong nagkabang nga blue tiles ug waterfall nga gibutang sa mga ouano, mao nga kanunay daw ihian sa mga way puangod nga mga ignoranteng mga hugawan sa maong syudad. :banana:

archaeologue

August 20th, 2008, 01:26 PM

sanvalente

August 20th, 2008, 03:35 PM

Mga Bai, sharing with you some of my favorite quotes (no offense meant baya ha...):

History: gossip well told. ~Elbert Hubbard, The Roycroft Dictionary

God cannot alter the past, though historians can. ~Samuel Butler, "Prose Observations"

Historian: an unsuccessful novelist. ~H.L. Mencken

If an historian were to relate truthfully all the crimes, weaknesses and disorders of mankind, his readers would take his work for satire rather than for history. ~Pierre Bayle, Historical and Critical Dictionary

Historical investigation has for its aim to fix the order and character of events throughout past time and in all places. The task is frankly superhuman. ~George Santayana, The Life of Reason

Perhaps nobody has changed the course of history as much as the historians. ~Franklin P. Jones

The past actually happened but history is only what someone wrote down. ~A. Whitney Brown, The Big Picture

History is the propaganda of the victors. ~Ernst Toller

People tend to forget that the word "history" contains the word "story". ~Ken Burns

A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.
-Bertrand Russell

I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong.
-Bertrand Russell

If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way.
-Bertrand Russell

Don't you think the word "history" is somewhat chauvinistic? We can use another
word like "herstory" if the author is a woman.... cheers..

sanvalente

August 20th, 2008, 03:35 PM

parianon

August 20th, 2008, 04:04 PM

Exactamente! For the longest time, the Cathedral of Cebu was just compared to a barn due to lack of funds so they had to suppress the parish then demolish the church of Parian so that the funds of the rich mestizo-sangleyes would be diverted to the construction of the Cathedral, which was supposed to be the mother-parish of the biggest diocese in the Philippines!

The Cathedral, of course, was run by the secular clergy, although the bishop during the suppression was an Augustinian, who, if I remember it right was Santos Gomez Marañon.

Well this is my take on the issue.. I may be wrong, though (unless proven otherwise by other documents) :banana:

prof mike cullinane said, after the parian elite lost the battle for the preservation of the church, they set their sights on the prize: the commerce and trade of cebu as its ports opened to the world market.

but how do you think the fervent parishioners must have felt? denied of a parish for reasons incomprehensible to the faithful, many must have been disillusioned. many must have disliked the idea of going to the spanish cathedral for parish functions and activities.

what could have been the impact of such an act by the church?

it shouldn't come as a surprise then that Gregorio Aglipay was able to build the Aglipayan church in Parian, near the old church. Many men of parian also became masons in the late part of the 19th century.

parianon

August 20th, 2008, 04:04 PM

Ang_Bantayanon

August 20th, 2008, 04:06 PM

Ang_Bantayanon

August 20th, 2008, 04:06 PM

Ang_Bantayanon

August 20th, 2008, 04:12 PM

prof mike cullinane said, after the parian elite lost the battle for the preservation of the church, they set their sights on the prize: the commerce and trade of cebu as its ports opened to the world market.

but how do you think the fervent parishioners must have felt? denied of a parish for reasons incomprehensible to the faithful, many must have been disillusioned. many must have disliked the idea of going to the spanish cathedral for parish functions and activities.

what could have been the impact of such an act by the church?

it shouldn't come as a surprise then that Gregorio Aglipay was able to build the Aglipayan church in Parian, near the old church. Many men of parian also became masons in the late part of the 19th century.

Oh yeah, exactly.. Parian's loss were other towns' gain. Unfortunately I can no longer answer your question because my answer would already border on mere speculation. :ohno: :banana:

Ang_Bantayanon

August 20th, 2008, 04:12 PM

archaeologue

August 20th, 2008, 04:34 PM

Argao is planning to establish a museum! finally! hmmmmm....teaser ra una ni....but i sincerely hope that town will really, finally make a museum out of the casa real....and the ones planning it are simply the best....

archaeologue

August 20th, 2008, 04:34 PM

parianon

August 20th, 2008, 05:25 PM

http://bp2.blogger.com/_ZJoPYbXUr5I/RuDM1DMQO7I/AAAAAAAAAN0/53bAiM1iAB8/s1600-h/29082007113.jpg

i'm not sure if the image comes out right. i'm a newbie here.

Parian's loss remains a loss, uncorrected to this very day.

imagine a parish one has now abolished, demolished stone by stone.

the image above are of descendants of the Parian parishioners, venerating the parish patron saint, san juan bautista more than a hundred years after their church, a point of reference, an anchor of stability was erased from the face of the earth.

in case the image doesn't come out right. pls check this site: http://cbrainard.blogspot.com/2007/09/cofradia-san-juan-batista-in-cebu.html

thanks to cecilia manguerra brainard, wonderful writer.

thanks for this wonderful site too. great discussions.

parianon

August 20th, 2008, 05:25 PM

goleyson

August 20th, 2008, 06:20 PM

goleyson

August 20th, 2008, 06:20 PM

Mercato

August 20th, 2008, 06:31 PM

Dako ang akong kalipay nga mosaysay kanatong tanan dinhi nga ako gayud dayon gitawagan si Ma'am Guadsky Cabahug-Latonio ug iyang gisaysay kanako nga ang rebulto ni Justice Sotero Cabahug gitagaan na usab ug dakong luna sa plaza pinaagi sa paningkamot sa mga bag-ong nagdumala sa mandaue karon ilalum ni halangdon Jonas Cortes.

Sa una kuno gipadaplin lang gyud intawn to, natago tungod adtong nagkabang nga blue tiles ug waterfall nga gibutang sa mga ouano, mao nga kanunay daw ihian sa mga way puangod nga mga ignoranteng mga hugawan sa maong syudad. :banana:

Yesss :banana:

Mercato

August 20th, 2008, 06:31 PM

sanvalente

August 21st, 2008, 12:47 AM

@sanvalente,

Some of the quotes were true, in the past, but with today's rational citizen who goes over critically what a historian writes, some quotes are passe. Gone are the days when historians would just concoct stories out of their wild imagination. Historians work on documents now and not just with rumors they hear.

AngBantayanon@

Indeed! Some are true, in fact, the documents that they wrote in their time
are our sources now... the others of course are passe as you call it ...
nothing of great importance to these quotes except that I learned something
that historians are now careful in getting the right sources.

I posted these quotes for the readers to have a quick one-second laugh, a smirk, a smile, or even a frown ... but it should be more on the lighter side.

Now this leads me to ask a question since I am not a historian. Is there a
protocol regarding the acceptance of old documents/manuscripts regarding
its credibility and integrity? I read somewhere that there were other Gospels
in the Bible but what was taught to us was only 4... and there are plenty
of stories too regarding forgeries and hoax.. tho I don't think there are as
far as Cebu is concerned...

Parianon@

Welcome sir! Are your a member of Ang Kagikan sa Parian Foundation?
Am curious if it is still active now.

sanvalente

August 21st, 2008, 12:47 AM

Ang_Bantayanon

August 21st, 2008, 01:34 AM

AngBantayanon@

Indeed! Some are true, in fact, the documents that they wrote in their time
are our sources now... the others of course are passe as you call it ...
nothing of great importance to these quotes except that I learned something
that historians are now careful in getting the right sources.

I posted these quotes for the readers to have a quick one-second laugh, a smirk, a smile, or even a frown ... but it should be more on the lighter side.

Now this leads me to ask a question since I am not a historian. Is there a
protocol regarding the acceptance of old documents/manuscripts regarding
its credibility and integrity? I read somewhere that there were other Gospels
in the Bible but what was taught to us was only 4... and there are plenty
of stories too regarding forgeries and hoax.. tho I don't think there are as
far as Cebu is concerned...

Parianon@

Welcome sir! Are your a member of Ang Kagikan sa Parian Foundation?
Am curious if it is still active now.

Documents have to be subjected to scrutiny. Read Louis Gottschalk's Understanding History how to... As to the Gospels, I really don't know how they did it perhaps you ask theologians on this. :nuts:

Ang_Bantayanon

August 21st, 2008, 01:34 AM

archaeologue

August 21st, 2008, 02:12 AM

no plans of restoring the old retablo in the church?

it would cost millions just to get that ugly gold paint out...and it would be very very risky.. and there is no guarantee that the original patina of age will resurface...

the retablo, i'm afraid, is a done deal....and only a hundred years of patient waiting will put it back as antique na pod kay 100 years na man unya ang nakalabay human gibinuangan ni msgr. ang retablo :banana:

....unfortunately, wa na ta anang panahuna ...and who knows? maybe the judgment will not be too harsh 100 years from now kay naa na man pod nay patina of age....mo-fade na ang gold ug makalimtan na ang mga donors sa pintal nga gustong masikat uban ni msgr. :bash:

besides, sikat bya jud kaau ning sambahan sa Argao...whenever there are trainings on conservation, special mention jud dayon ning gibuhat ni monsginor....aron malikayan sa mga way puagod nga mga kaparian...all that the trainer or lecturer has to do is show a picture of the pre-golden and the golden retablo (a la then and now) and voila! all the participants get a first-hand look at what should not be done....pwde pod paadtoon sa simbahan mismo para masilawan sila sa bulawanong kahayag og makakat-on jud dayon...

archaeologue

August 21st, 2008, 02:12 AM

goleyson

August 21st, 2008, 09:54 AM

goleyson

August 21st, 2008, 09:54 AM

archaeologue

August 21st, 2008, 01:33 PM

^^^
what happened to the monsignor? wa siya batu-a? (barbaric kaayo ko. hehe), i have not seen the retablo in its shiny shimering splendid theme.. oh i only saw it on tv in one of the tv masses and i thought there is a new church having a retablo patterned after argao. the images look like golden idols rather than objects for religious veneration. before it was painted, yes it looked dark and dirty. kuwang ra jud unta to og suga and limpyo.

i hope they can tap big companies to sponsor its restoration. San Miguel Corporation perhaps lol... I have seen in flickr how the old retablo ravaged by the lahar was saved and restored by a well-known restorer and the result was just gorgeous. but as you have mentioned above, the main problem is money.

i don't think it would be prudent to do anything about it right now...unless there is a disaster or calamity in Argao (god forbid) akin to the lahar in central luzon, di jud na matarog ang San Miguel Corp although the patron saint of Argao is, you guessed it, San Miguel

besides the risk of removing the paint right now outweighs doing anything to it....huwaton na lang jud ang 100 ka tuig ani...in other words, wa na tay mahems except iampo ang monsignor nga malangit intawn siya kay di lang ra ba kini ang iyang sala...naa pay lain...ang karaang capilla posa nga iyang gibungkag kay gipulihan ug bag-o...

also there are conservation principles that disallow the use of lights on retablos...which explains why the Sto. Nino basilica is very dark and cavernous and why candles are no longer lighted inside except those for the Masses...

archaeologue

August 21st, 2008, 01:33 PM

parianon

August 21st, 2008, 04:28 PM

Parianon@ Welcome sir! Are your a member of Ang Kagikan sa Parian Foundation? Am curious if it is still active now.

i heard of it. but no, i'm not a member. I'm not sure if it is still active. i heard, the historians and some descendants couldn't agree as to its composition. i kinda agree more with resil mojares that one need not be a descendant of parian to be a part of it. i told him so last time we met.

what the people of parian achieved during the spanish colonial period and the early 20th century is a testament to what the cebuanos are capable of: entrepreneurship, spiritual maturity, ingenuity, pride, cosmopolitan spirit and cultural sophistication.

parianon

August 21st, 2008, 04:28 PM

SleMarKen

August 21st, 2008, 08:50 PM

it would cost millions just to get that ugly gold paint out...and it would be very very risky.. and there is no guarantee that the original patina of age will resurface...

the retablo, i'm afraid, is a done deal....and only a hundred years of patient waiting will put it back as antique na pod kay 100 years na man unya ang nakalabay human gibinuangan ni msgr. ang retablo :banana:

....unfortunately, wa na ta anang panahuna ...and who knows? maybe the judgment will not be too harsh 100 years from now kay naa na man pod nay patina of age....mo-fade na ang gold ug makalimtan na ang mga donors sa pintal nga gustong masikat uban ni msgr. :bash:

besides, sikat bya jud kaau ning sambahan sa Argao...whenever there are trainings on conservation, special mention jud dayon ning gibuhat ni monsginor....aron malikayan sa mga way puagod nga mga kaparian...all that the trainer or lecturer has to do is show a picture of the pre-golden and the golden retablo (a la then and now) and voila! all the participants get a first-hand look at what should not be done....pwde pod paadtoon sa simbahan mismo para masilawan sila sa bulawanong kahayag og makakat-on jud dayon...

can the archdiocese control these kind of act? why would they allow such? kung mag-ilis na pud og pari lahi napud cguro cya og trippan with his "Midas touch" bacin tibuok simbahan pintalan og gold.

dugaya pud anang 100 years hulaton nato mapanit ang gold. kinsa pay buhi nato ana diri.

SleMarKen

August 21st, 2008, 08:50 PM

goleyson

August 22nd, 2008, 08:29 AM

^^^
100 years and mapanit ra ang gold paint og iyaha? i think naa man tngaliy techniques of removing that bloody golf paint.

ambot naunsa pud ni ang ubang pari oi.. walay committee and archdiocese na pwede consultahon before mag renovate of unsa ba? daghan man gud tiguwang sa simbahan and as i see it, murag ang mga tiguwang gipul-an na sa karaan mao na they want changes tngali. see the cathedral for example.. murag swimming pool with the constant wreckovations.

goleyson

August 22nd, 2008, 08:29 AM

LordCarnal

August 22nd, 2008, 09:01 AM

^^

Paghimo na mo ug bag-o na thread!

Kay nilapas na ta sa 1,000 posts... di na ko muhimo, kamo nasad...

:banana: :banana: :banana:

LordCarnal

August 22nd, 2008, 09:01 AM

^^

Paghimo na mo ug bag-o na thread!

Kay nilapas na ta sa 1,000 posts... di na ko muhimo, kamo nasad...

:banana: :banana: :banana:

Ka_Bino

August 22nd, 2008, 10:49 AM

The previous thread (Thread 5) is now full as it has reached more than 1,000 posts...

LINK TO THE PREVIOUS Thread
>>>>> ‎http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=556480

Ka_Bino

August 22nd, 2008, 10:49 AM

The previous thread (Thread 5) is now full as it has reached more than 1,000 posts...

LINK TO THE PREVIOUS Thread
>>>>> ‎http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=556480

Ka_Bino

August 22nd, 2008, 10:53 AM

Pls. use the new tread

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=692014

Ka_Bino

August 22nd, 2008, 10:53 AM

Pls. use the new tread

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=692014

flesh_is_weak

August 22nd, 2008, 12:20 PM

sosyal...naabot na ug 1000...ug 99% spam free pa gyud (hehehe...ironically, this post is spam :lol:)

flesh_is_weak

August 22nd, 2008, 12:20 PM

sosyal...naabot na ug 1000...ug 99% spam free pa gyud (hehehe...ironically, this post is spam :lol:)

LordCarnal

August 22nd, 2008, 02:17 PM

LordCarnal

August 22nd, 2008, 02:17 PM

LordCarnal

August 22nd, 2008, 02:28 PM

Anyway, I hope that the cathedral can train an organist who will play the pipe organ on ordinary days and Sundays.

I heard that this instrument is only played in "special" services celebrated by the cardinal but I myself have attended a lot of special services celebrated by the cardinal and never have I heard this beautiful piece of instrument play.

According to one of those from the Diego Cera Organ Builders who built this pipe organ in 1995-1996, Mr. Cealwyn Tagle, leaving this instrument idle will only do more damage.

Furthermore, according to him, there's a great difference between the sound of the pipe organ and that of the Yamaha electric organ.

Below: An organist from Diego Cera playing the pipe organ. (Photo by Hsmoller (http://www.flickr.com/photos/25373160@N03/2774186611/))

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3018/2774186611_056694002c.jpg

Below: The pipe organ made up of two caseworks -- the Main Organ and the Rueckpositiv Organ, which is a common arrangement in Europe especially in Germany. The organist sits between the two caseworks and can actually play the two organ cases separately or together. (Photo by Cealwyn Tagle (http://www.flickr.com/photos/philippine_church_music/1050318080/))

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1189/1050318080_ec5919410e.jpg

.:.

LordCarnal

August 22nd, 2008, 02:28 PM

LordCarnal

August 22nd, 2008, 02:50 PM

Aside from the retablo of Argao, there's another item that needs our close watch.

Look at the photo below closely. This pipe organ used to have three horizontal rows of trumpets/pipes. Now there are only two. One can clearly discern the "holes" were the pipe used to emanate.

You can also notice at the leftmost part that there's a pipe that is bent downwards. Perhaps during an attempt to remove it?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3103/2621129660_b5cd184db6.jpg

According to an expert, a lot of pipe organs in Bohol lost their pipes, mainly made of Tin and Lead, after some of the priests sold them to junk shops.

Here in Cebu, Dalaguete's pipe organ no longer has pipes.. Asa na kaha.. :nuts:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s223/arnold_carl/WordPress/Old_Churches/Dalaguete/02dalaguete.jpg

LordCarnal

August 22nd, 2008, 02:50 PM

Ka_Bino

August 22nd, 2008, 03:42 PM

By the way nice 'tung pictures sa Larsian. Cowboy diay si Dr. Cullinane.

.:.

Cowboy mulang...

he loves to eat Lomi sa Visayan restaurant...

We just walk around cebu..

Mosakay ug jeep...

basta wala jud to siya'y arte

Ka_Bino

August 22nd, 2008, 03:42 PM

Sinjin P.

August 22nd, 2008, 04:05 PM

Although dili kaayo ko tigpost ani nga thread, mubasa baya ko once in a while ug daghan kog nakat-onan. Salamat sa atong mga contributors intawn! :applause:

Anyway, on Monday, since holiday man, nagplano mi magroadtrip hangtud Boljoon. Abli ba kaha ang mga simbahan sa probinsya ana no?

Sinjin P.

August 22nd, 2008, 04:05 PM

Ka_Bino

August 22nd, 2008, 04:50 PM

Ka_Bino

August 22nd, 2008, 04:50 PM

flesh_is_weak

August 22nd, 2008, 04:53 PM

Mosakay ug jeep...

basta wala jud to siya'y arte

yeah, it's amazing how tourists seem to appreciate our local form of transport more than ungrateful locals do (myself included)

speaking of which, did he by any chance, in your conversations let slip any 'new'--that is, previously unknown, or forgotten-- information on Cebu's ill-fated railways?

flesh_is_weak

August 22nd, 2008, 04:53 PM

SleMarKen

August 22nd, 2008, 05:19 PM

SleMarKen

August 22nd, 2008, 05:19 PM

Ka_Bino

August 22nd, 2008, 05:22 PM

i think we talk about the railways in passing..

but give me time i'll ask him..

he is still in manila doing research mostly in the national archive..

Ka_Bino

August 22nd, 2008, 05:22 PM

i think we talk about the railways in passing..

but give me time i'll ask him..

he is still in manila doing research mostly in the national archive..

archaeologue

August 22nd, 2008, 05:36 PM

^^^
100 years and mapanit ra ang gold paint og iyaha? i think naa man tngaliy techniques of removing that bloody golf paint.

dire na ko moreply ani ha...hehe..

by patina of age, i mean that the gold is now reacting to the elements. peeling is one possiblity although very, very remote...the chemical reaction of the paint to dust, moisture, heat, and the soot from lighted candles will do the trick of causing the gold to turn dull if not brown altogether...given 100 years, of course.

ang problema lang if 50 years from now, another monsignor, perhaps apo aning monsignor karon, thinking of the legacy of his grand-ucnle lolo monsignor, will raise funds to give the gold another sheen! disaster na pod!!!

there is a technique to remove the gold but the cost and the time it will take will be too steep for Argao or even the Catholic hierarchy is Cebu to pay.

first, tangtangon na ang retablo, piece by piece...dad-on sa conservation laboratory that wil be set up nearby.

then with the use of special types of scalpels and microscopic lenses, i-peel off na very, very, very, very slowly...like one inch every day ra ang mahuman. wa pa jud na'y guarantee nga di maapil ug kalangkat ang original nga gesso or estofado nga applique.

My best example would be "The Night of the Watchmen", a huge painting by Rembrandt. Sections of it were slashed (i think three thin slashes) with a knife by a deranged man in the early 1970s. The painting, which is almost the size of Luna's "Spoliarium" was taken down and repaired. It took about four years to cover the slash and restore the painting. Still when you go to the Rijksmuseum (the Dutch national museum) where it is prominently displayed, you can still see the thin slices albeit covered with paint that had to be concocted in chemical labs that reproduced the original 1600s type of paint material!!!

in other words, the risks are too humongous and the cost would bankrupt the church in Cebu.

pabayaan na lang jud na....

ug iampo ang monsignor nga makasabot ra ang kalangitan sa iyang gibuhat (apil na ang iyang pagpapas sa capilla posa ug paglangkat sa spanish-era coral stone portals sa sementeryo kay dili masulod iyang truck!)

ambot naunsa pud ni ang ubang pari oi.. walay committee and archdiocese na pwede consultahon before mag renovate of unsa ba? daghan man gud tiguwang sa simbahan and as i see it, murag ang mga tiguwang gipul-an na sa karaan mao na they want changes tngali. see the cathedral for example.. murag swimming pool with the constant wreckovations.

The Archdiocesan Commission for the Cultural Heritage of the Church is a Vatican-mandated office that is tasked with ensuring the balance between the liturgical requirements of Vatican II and the heritage of the church. Ang Bantayanon sits in that commission. Its equivalent in the Vatican is the Pontifical Commission for the Cultural Heritage of the Church.

Alas, advisory ra jud gihapon na dri. Maski warningan na ang mga pari ug monsignori nga mokonsulta sa commission, pwerte rang gamaya ang mokunsulta. and most who consult are those trying to renovate churches that are not older than 30 years.

kadto hinuong dapat mokunsulta kay 100 to 150 years na ilang simbahan, di jud modeparal. mga way puangod. hinuon, nag-andam na si satanas ug luna nila didto sa impyerno! but ambot di ba kaha siya mahadlok nga basin usbon pod ni nila ang appearance sa impyerno, kaliguon ug gold!!!lolzzzzz....... :bash:

paet.

archaeologue

August 22nd, 2008, 05:36 PM

SleMarKen

August 22nd, 2008, 05:48 PM

SleMarKen

August 22nd, 2008, 05:48 PM

archaeologue

August 22nd, 2008, 06:06 PM

^^so kada ilis og pari, another challenge for heritage conservationist para dili pun-an ang pintal or any other desecrating act towards those structures.

kung ako naa midas touch kanang pari-a himuon sad nakong gold unya ibutang iya rebulto atubangan sa simbahan. hehehehehe!

i think wa to malipay ang parish pastoral council of argao, or at least, the members who attended the provincial heritage caravan when the fifth (or was it sixth?) cluster was held in Argao in September last year.

when it was my turn to speak, I asked all the participants---who were inside the Casa Real, their backs turned to the church---to face the church.

when they did so, I started my diatribe. first, I asked the members of the pastoral council to raise their hands...(a few of the participants did)....then i began by telling them that Argao church missed its chance to be declared a National Cultural Treasure (NCT), like Boljoon church, the first step for listing in the UNESCO World Heritage List, because nagpabaya ang pastoral council ug mga tigsimba sa Argao. "Gipasagdan ra ninyo ang inyong pinakakaraang edipsiyo nga duwa-duwaan sa inyong kaparian," I yelled at them.

But in the same vein, I also assured them to try their luck 100 years from now. Because what the monsginor did will become part of heritage by then.

Although I warned them nga by that time, napuno na ang Cebu ug mga NCTs, Argao na lang ang wala pa sa lista!!!! :banana:

pagkahapon, milagro kaau, miapil gihapon sa caravan ang mga taga-pastoral council! tsk! basin wa sila kasabot? :bash:

o nakonsyensya kaha? :lol:

archaeologue

August 22nd, 2008, 06:06 PM

overtureph

August 22nd, 2008, 06:22 PM

Exactamente! For the longest time, the Cathedral of Cebu was just compared to a barn due to lack of funds so they had to suppress the parish then demolish the church of Parian so that the funds of the rich mestizo-sangleyes would be diverted to the construction of the Cathedral, which was supposed to be the mother-parish of the biggest diocese in the Philippines!

The Cathedral, of course, was run by the secular clergy, although the bishop during the suppression was an Augustinian, who, if I remember it right was Santos Gomez Marañon.

Well this is my take on the issue.. I may be wrong, though (unless proven otherwise by other documents) :banana:

I thought it was demolished because (it was kind of competing in what sense I don't know) of the Agustinian Sto. Niño church. I didn't know that the bishop during that time was from the Agustinian order. So maybe this could be a motive for the approval for the demolition.

Where was the Parian church located? Are there still remnants or ruins on its site?

overtureph

August 22nd, 2008, 06:22 PM

Exactamente! For the longest time, the Cathedral of Cebu was just compared to a barn due to lack of funds so they had to suppress the parish then demolish the church of Parian so that the funds of the rich mestizo-sangleyes would be diverted to the construction of the Cathedral, which was supposed to be the mother-parish of the biggest diocese in the Philippines!

The Cathedral, of course, was run by the secular clergy, although the bishop during the suppression was an Augustinian, who, if I remember it right was Santos Gomez Marañon.

Well this is my take on the issue.. I may be wrong, though (unless proven otherwise by other documents) :banana:

I thought it was demolished because (it was kind of competing in what sense I don't know) of the Agustinian Sto. Niño church. I didn't know that the bishop during that time was from the Agustinian order. So maybe this could be a motive for the approval for the demolition.

Where was the Parian church located? Are there still remnants or ruins on its site?

SleMarKen

August 22nd, 2008, 07:22 PM

SleMarKen

August 22nd, 2008, 07:22 PM

goleyson

August 22nd, 2008, 09:26 PM

goleyson

August 22nd, 2008, 09:26 PM

archaeologue

August 23rd, 2008, 01:03 AM

i also saw one documentary on NGC, and that time, Michelangelo's painting on Capilla Sestina. It was revealed then that the persons were originally painted with their privies exposed and the coverings were just later additions.

i think there is a cheaper way than setting up a lab... hiring expert santeros perhaps who could rehabilitate it or repaint it replicating the art of such era. hehe. but that is faking.. but even michelangelo did such.

yes, that would be faking it...conservation principles would dictate that the retablo be left as it is if there is no way to remove the gold paint anymore.

making it look antique would be ersatz rehabilitation...basin mas kuyaw pa ang resulta.

archaeologue

August 23rd, 2008, 01:03 AM

SleMarKen

August 23rd, 2008, 01:36 AM

yes, that would be faking it...conservation principles would dictate that the retablo be left as it is if there is no way to remove the gold paint anymore.

making it look antique would be ersatz rehabilitation...basin mas kuyaw pa ang resulta.

wala nay makakita nato 100 years from now kung unsa nay mahitabo sa retablo.

SleMarKen

August 23rd, 2008, 01:36 AM

Sleepwalker

August 23rd, 2008, 03:39 AM

Dapat pud siguro ni seminaron atong mga pari about heritage. Kay unsaon na lang og magpataka na sila paguba og simbahan kay ilisan og glassy kaayo nga simbahan.

Pwede kaha mahangyo ang archdiocese of Cebu nga maseminar sila just to let them be aware the importance of heritage.

Anyway, dali ra makasabot ang mga pari ana...Kay pwera lang sa mga tarong, ubay ubay man pud sa mga pari ang hilig og mobilin og kabilin(heirs) kada parokya nga ila maadtoan....Hehehehhee...No offense intended.

Vox populi, vox Dei!

Sleepwalker

August 23rd, 2008, 03:39 AM

habagatcentral1

August 23rd, 2008, 05:20 AM

i think we talk about the railways in passing..

but give me time i'll ask him..

he is still in manila doing research mostly in the national archive..

Bai, do you have a contact number or schedule of Dr.Culianne? Sa PM ra bai. Tnx. :)

habagatcentral1

August 23rd, 2008, 05:20 AM

habagatcentral1

August 23rd, 2008, 05:23 AM

I'll quote this from a priest whom I have talked with several months ago:

In short, Priests act like they are the kings of their own little kingdom and the church is their castle. They'll do what they please because they defend that "Churches here in the Philippines are living churches, unlike those empty cathedrals/churches in Europe as what the heritage conservationists wanted to happen to the church here in the Philippines...."

A valid excuse or a lame excuse?

habagatcentral1

August 23rd, 2008, 05:23 AM

LordCarnal

August 23rd, 2008, 06:50 AM

I thought it was demolished because (it was kind of competing in what sense I don't know) of the Agustinian Sto. Niño church. I didn't know that the bishop during that time was from the Agustinian order. So maybe this could be a motive for the approval for the demolition.

Where was the Parian church located? Are there still remnants or ruins on its site?

A very long story actually with lots of circumstances which also includes the growing power of the Pari-an elite, which if I'm not mistaken posed as a threat? Got this info from Bruce Fenner's book.

Anyway, can anyone explain to us here about the "Banilad Friars Estate?"

...

LordCarnal

August 23rd, 2008, 06:50 AM

Ka_Bino

August 23rd, 2008, 08:44 AM

Bai, do you have a contact number or schedule of Dr.Culianne? Sa PM ra bai. Tnx. :)

Sorry i can't give you his contact number, and i don't have his sched outside of cebu,(sa cebu rako niya alalay)

but take this tip. he is always at the national archives, just see him there..

Ka_Bino

August 23rd, 2008, 08:44 AM

habagatcentral1

August 23rd, 2008, 08:53 AM

^^ Yikes...the forbidden lair....hehehe!! Forbidden for it needs permission from my profs to go there, hay...Anyway, thanks for the tip. :)

habagatcentral1

August 23rd, 2008, 08:53 AM

^^ Yikes...the forbidden lair....hehehe!! Forbidden for it needs permission from my profs to go there, hay...Anyway, thanks for the tip. :)

Ka_Bino

August 23rd, 2008, 09:19 AM

Why man nga Frobiden?

Ka_Bino

August 23rd, 2008, 09:19 AM

Why man nga Frobiden?

goleyson

August 23rd, 2008, 10:03 AM

I'll quote this from a priest whom I have talked with several months ago:

A valid excuse or a lame excuse?

valid at the same time lame...

expansions and changes in order to accomodate the people is acceptable as long as it wont deviate from the the overall theme of the church.. when the cathdral of cebu underwent renovations during the 90s, the result was nice until recent or never ending changes keep on poping ang now voila with a cathedral that for me doesnt befit or worhty for a place known a the birthplace of christianity in asia. this is just my own opinion..

goleyson

August 23rd, 2008, 10:03 AM

LordCarnal

August 23rd, 2008, 12:59 PM

^^

They shouldn't have removed the retablos even though they weren't antique.

Well at least we know that it's safely kept at CG's cathedral, err, church in Talisay, hehehe..

Anyway, someone from Diego Cera will come to Boljoon this month to submit a proposal for the restoration of their pipe organ. Basing on the photos of their work, these guys have been successful in restoring Bohol's pipe organs. Currently they are rehabilitating the pipe organ of the Manila Cathedral. :banana:

.:.

LordCarnal

August 23rd, 2008, 12:59 PM

parianon

August 23rd, 2008, 01:42 PM

Welcome to the fifth thread.. :banana:

We have come a long way indeed.

By the way nice 'tung pictures sa Larsian. Cowboy diay si Dr. Cullinane.

Welcome also Parianon to Skyscrapercity Forums. :banana:

I thought at first "pari-onon" (likely candidate to the priesthood), hehe.

.:.

thanks for the warm welcome. until now the etymology of the word parian has not been resolved. even the historians mojares and cullinane can't quite categorically pinpoint the origin of the word.

parianon because my ancestors hailed from parian. that also explains my interest in the place and the time where "all the action was" in Cebu, so to speak.

parianon

August 23rd, 2008, 01:42 PM

sanvalente

August 23rd, 2008, 02:07 PM

.....

Anyway, can anyone explain to us here about the "Banilad Friars Estate?"
....
...

Friar Lands is a very interesting topic. Here's a very short history although during the time of the Americans. Copy pasted from my notes (various sources).

Maybe one of you mga bai can trace who are the families in Cebu nga na benefited ani. Sad to note that it was decided by the Supreme Court that
it is legal even to those who bought it until this point in time. I know of a family here in Cebu who was a beneficiary kay anak sa pari ang ilang lolo.

Here it is:

"Anyone who researched history will stumble across curious connections. William Howard Taft, a man who became President of the United States and later its chief justice, played an unusual part in church history.

In 1900 and 1901 Taft served as a commissioner to the Philippines which the United States administered following the Spanish-American war. Upon his return to the United States, he was called to testify before a Senate committee. One of the problems he had noted in the Philippines was that of the friar lands.

The Spanish presence in the Philippines had been deeply resented by Filipinos on account of these lands. During Spain's control of the islands, the friars had acquired 400,000 prime acres. Filipinos worked this land for them and were charged excessive rents. Worse yet, friars behaved as political bosses in many of the villages lying on these lands, dictating policies and expenditures.
A rebellion stripped the friars of their holdings. However, they still retained title under the law. Complicating the situation, when the United States had taken possession of the islands, its treaty with Spain guaranteed existing property rights. President Theodore Roosevelt was in a bind. Under the terms of the treaty, he could not confiscate the lands, but neither would he force the peasants to accept back their old masters, the friars.

His only option was to attempt to cut a deal with the Vatican, a deal which would satisfy the Filipinos and meet the friars legal claims. On May 9, 1902 he sent Taft to Rome to negotiate the friars' withdrawal.

Taft offered to buy the friars' lands at a price to be set by arbitration. America had a strict policy of separation of church and state, he said, and while friendly to the Catholic church, insisted that Roman Catholic control of the lives of Filipinos must end. Pope Leo XIII said he could not accept this.
His successor, Pius X (pope from 1903 - 1914), was more open to negotiation. He agreed to an arrangement in which the Filipinos raised a bond for over $7 million to pay for the land, which was then sold to native farmers on easy terms. More than 50,000 took advantage of the deal to acquire their own property. Taft became such a hero to the Filipinos that they held protests when Roosevelt recalled him to make him a member of his administration."

sanvalente

August 23rd, 2008, 02:07 PM

parianon

August 23rd, 2008, 02:24 PM

http://bp2.blogger.com/_ZJoPYbXUr5I/RuDM1DMQO7I/AAAAAAAAAN0/53bAiM1iAB8/s320/29082007113.jpg

finally. i got the posting right. this was the image i wanted to post here. got this from the blog site of writer cecilia manguerra brainnard which she also got from Louie Nacorda (some rights reserved only, i suppose)

for me, the picture is significant.

the suppression, abolition and eventually, the demolition of the parian church was a mistake committed by no less than the catholic clergy during the spanish colonial period. the Augustinians, which to this day remain active in the city's religious and cultural life and the diocese of cebu headed by an Agustinian bishop at that time connived in delivering the fatal blow to the indigenous church.

yet the church according to the 2nd Vatican Council is not the structure, the stone edifice but the people of God. Our Christian faith has survived despite the mistakes of the friars and the Spanish colonizers. Parian was known then as the town of beatas. The borromeos, gorordos, ralloses, velezes had priests and nuns in the family. you ask anyone whose family has descended from parian and he/she would attest to the deep spirituality of their parents and grandparents leaving behind prayer books, religious icons, lengthy prayers and novenas.

the present is a continuing past. the picture above are of direct descendants of parian parishioners venerating to this day San Juan Bautista, Parian's patron saint.

When will the Church in Cebu make the public admission to the mistake? Much like the Vatican admitting last year that the templars were found innocent by Pope Clement V of the charges hurled against them by the king of france during their trial. yet the church wasnt strong enough then being based in Avignon, France at that time to defy the king. such weakness resulted in the unjust torture, murder, looting, and public humiliation of the templars.

how will the church in Cebu rectify that mistake?

parianon

August 23rd, 2008, 02:24 PM

flesh_is_weak

August 23rd, 2008, 03:01 PM

is the image being venerated but a head? or is it intended to be just a head? the baptizer after all was beheaded...

flesh_is_weak

August 23rd, 2008, 03:01 PM

is the image being venerated but a head? or is it intended to be just a head? the baptizer after all was beheaded...

parianon

August 23rd, 2008, 03:24 PM

is the image being venerated but a head? or is it intended to be just a head? the baptizer after all was beheaded...

check the high res version. i dont have the authorization to post it here, having just lifted it from another site: http://cbrainard.blogspot.com/2007/09/cofradia-san-juan-batista-in-cebu.html

parianon

August 23rd, 2008, 03:24 PM

overtureph

August 23rd, 2008, 08:48 PM

I'll quote this from a priest whom I have talked with several months ago:

A valid excuse or a lame excuse?

I guess this applies to the expansion of Quiapo church. More than 20 years ago, there was discussion as to expand the church or not. One argument was for it's historical value and the other one was the need to accommodate the devotees and the popularity of the devotion to the Nazareno. So as we can see today, which side won.

overtureph

August 23rd, 2008, 08:48 PM

flesh_is_weak

August 24th, 2008, 06:37 AM

check the high res version. i dont have the authorization to post it here, having just lifted it from another site: http://cbrainard.blogspot.com/2007/09/cofradia-san-juan-batista-in-cebu.html

wow, it's the most 'unique' icon that i've seen so far...ulo ra gyud siya (not counting the numerous Ecce Homos)...amazing...where in Cebu is it venerated? is it open to the public or to family and friends only?

flesh_is_weak

August 24th, 2008, 06:37 AM

flesh_is_weak

August 24th, 2008, 12:43 PM

for reasons that no thread for such topic exists, and that i've read somewhere before in this thread that there is a budding Canon lawyer among the ranks of those posting here, hence i would post this question:

> i've read on the internet that the pronunciation/articulation of the widely accepted name of God, the Tetragammaton or 'Yahweh' is now banned by the Catholic Church just recently...since they're already doing this, why wont they also revert to the use of 'Sabaoth' or even just '...of hosts' or '...of armies' instead of '...of power and might' in the Sanctus? and while they're at it, what about scrapping the benediction after the Lord's prayer (for Thine is the...) which doesnt belong there in the first place?

flesh_is_weak

August 24th, 2008, 12:43 PM

gee

August 24th, 2008, 09:22 PM

^^ could you cite your sources or else we would end up discussing "church pronouncements" which don´t exist at all ... further, be reminded that this thread is for cebu heritage ...

gee

August 24th, 2008, 09:22 PM

^^ could you cite your sources or else we would end up discussing "church pronouncements" which don´t exist at all ... further, be reminded that this thread is for cebu heritage ...

gee

August 24th, 2008, 11:26 PM

I'll quote this from a priest whom I have talked with several months ago:

A valid excuse or a lame excuse?

bay, living churches pa ang philippines kay kusog pa man moamot ang mga tawo sa simbahan ... unlike here in europe that they are selling their churches ´cause the diocese could not afford anymore to maintain its churches. i heard the archdiocese of berlin is closing about 50 churches and they are for sale!!!

i think it takes time before people would understand what heritage thing is all about ... i think even in europe this is just a recent development ... cause i know some churches in germany whose paintings on the wall or ceiling were removed right after the second vatican council because the priests at that time believed that those paintings no longer conformed to the new liturgical norms of the church ... some were restored recently, others not.

heritage conservation, as i see it in germany, succeeds because the state is strong enough to regulate the activities of its citizen with regard to structures declared as heritage site. the state set the standard. it is the one who declares, which monument/structures which ought to be protected. in germany it is more effecient because it is more localized. each state has its own law on heritage protection and in every county there is a certain office which deals with these things. once a monument or structure is declared a heritage site, everything is documented: e.g., the color of the wall, the type of material used, etc. so when a private owner of a structure, which has been declared by the state as heritage site, wants to repair or renovate that structure, he has to inform that certain office. and that office set the rules - what can be done and not. the owner also gets incentive from the state. but if the rules are not followed, the owner can be penalized by the state.

it is quite problematic in the philippines in declaring a heritage site because, as i see it, everything is so centralized ... we always have to wait for NHI ... i think we need the local government in heritage conservation ... if a certain structure has a great significance for a certain town, but not necessarily for the whole province, why can't the local government declare it a heritage site ...

gee

August 24th, 2008, 11:26 PM

habagatcentral1

August 25th, 2008, 02:15 AM

habagatcentral1

August 25th, 2008, 02:15 AM

flesh_is_weak

August 25th, 2008, 03:55 AM

^^ could you cite your sources or else we would end up discussing "church pronouncements" which don´t exist at all ... further, be reminded that this thread is for cebu heritage ...

i cant find any thread for church rules kasi...didnt i mention that i posted here because a regular poster of the CHT is quite knowledgeable on Canon Law?

this should suffice: http://www.execulink.com/~dtribe/blog/Name%20of%20God.pdf

flesh_is_weak

August 25th, 2008, 03:55 AM

gee

August 25th, 2008, 06:33 AM

^ it is a directive (the closest equivalent would be city ordinance) from the congregation of divine worship, a vatican office handling matters on liturgy .... the directive sets rule with regard to the use of the name of God in liturgy ... vatican would not excommunicate you if you use it in your daily conversation ...

gee

August 25th, 2008, 06:33 AM

archaeologue

August 25th, 2008, 12:54 PM

^^ I think LGUs have the power for heritage conservation that is enough for them to protect the area or the site itself. If the LGU can declare the site as a heritage site in their own part through an ordinance, that has entitled the site for protection and emphasis. Of course this is not enough as some of local politics can seek for the loopholes in the local level, thus the need of the national body.

In anyway, I wish that the LGUs can have "police power" in heritage conservation.

There are two LGUs so far that have adopted the sample ordinance that was presented to them in the Conservation Management Planning Workshops conducted by the provivncial committee on sites, relics and sturctures at the capitol social hall. These are Santander and Argao. Their proposed ordinances are now on second reading in their particular sanggunians. WE hope others will follow suit.

archaeologue

August 25th, 2008, 12:54 PM

Ang_Bantayanon

August 25th, 2008, 02:02 PM

bay, living churches pa ang philippines kay kusog pa man moamot ang mga tawo sa simbahan ... unlike here in europe that they are selling their churches ´cause the diocese could not afford anymore to maintain its churches. i heard the archdiocese of berlin is closing about 50 churches and they are for sale!!!

i think it takes time before people would understand what heritage thing is all about ... i think even in europe this is just a recent development ... cause i know some churches in germany whose paintings on the wall or ceiling were removed right after the second vatican council because the priests at that time believed that those paintings no longer conformed to the new liturgical norms of the church ... some were restored recently, others not.

heritage conservation, as i see it in germany, succeeds because the state is strong enough to regulate the activities of its citizen with regard to structures declared as heritage site. the state set the standard. it is the one who declares, which monument/structures which ought to be protected. in germany it is more effecient because it is more localized. each state has its own law on heritage protection and in every county there is a certain office which deals with these things. once a monument or structure is declared a heritage site, everything is documented: e.g., the color of the wall, the type of material used, etc. so when a private owner of a structure, which has been declared by the state as heritage site, wants to repair or renovate that structure, he has to inform that certain office. and that office set the rules - what can be done and not. the owner also gets incentive from the state. but if the rules are not followed, the owner can be penalized by the state.

it is quite problematic in the philippines in declaring a heritage site because, as i see it, everything is so centralized ... we always have to wait for NHI ... i think we need the local government in heritage conservation ... if a certain structure has a great significance for a certain town, but not necessarily for the whole province, why can't the local government declare it a heritage site ...

The good news is that a few weeks ago, the provincial government of Cebu has organized a council which is tasked to identify the heritage structures in all towns and cities comprising the province.. I think our own Archaeologue can tell us more about this. In this case, those structures that may not qualify to be recognized by the NHI can be given local recognition.

Ang_Bantayanon

August 25th, 2008, 02:02 PM

LordCarnal

August 25th, 2008, 02:58 PM

@archaeologue

sir di pa open ang museu sugbo noh? by appointment lang? amo unta paanhaon ang tibuok SSC Cebu together with members of Cebu Bloggers Society (around 10 kabuok)

Murag tour kumbaga.

Okay ra? :D:D

LordCarnal

August 25th, 2008, 02:58 PM

flesh_is_weak

August 25th, 2008, 03:18 PM

not pertaining to the museum, pero kabantay ko na kasagarang mga heritage society naa man gud air of exclusivity na mura ug ma-uwaw ang mga common tao na mo-take part (maayo unta baya para naay active community participation)

mura man gud ug ma-equate (perhaps out of prejudice) siya sa mga alta ug mga kaliwat sa mga adunahan na familia...maayo unta kung naay makahuna-huna ug himo ug kanang pang-masa ug appeal na heritage conservation program para, as i've said, dunay active community participation na mahitabo

flesh_is_weak

August 25th, 2008, 03:18 PM

overtureph

August 25th, 2008, 03:58 PM

bay, living churches pa ang philippines kay kusog pa man moamot ang mga tawo sa simbahan ... unlike here in europe that they are selling their churches ´cause the diocese could not afford anymore to maintain its churches. i heard the archdiocese of berlin is closing about 50 churches and they are for sale!!!

i think it takes time before people would understand what heritage thing is all about ... i think even in europe this is just a recent development ... cause i know some churches in germany whose paintings on the wall or ceiling were removed right after the second vatican council because the priests at that time believed that those paintings no longer conformed to the new liturgical norms of the church ... some were restored recently, others not.

heritage conservation, as i see it in germany, succeeds because the state is strong enough to regulate the activities of its citizen with regard to structures declared as heritage site. the state set the standard. it is the one who declares, which monument/structures which ought to be protected. in germany it is more effecient because it is more localized. each state has its own law on heritage protection and in every county there is a certain office which deals with these things. once a monument or structure is declared a heritage site, everything is documented: e.g., the color of the wall, the type of material used, etc. so when a private owner of a structure, which has been declared by the state as heritage site, wants to repair or renovate that structure, he has to inform that certain office. and that office set the rules - what can be done and not. the owner also gets incentive from the state. but if the rules are not followed, the owner can be penalized by the state.

it is quite problematic in the philippines in declaring a heritage site because, as i see it, everything is so centralized ... we always have to wait for NHI ... i think we need the local government in heritage conservation ... if a certain structure has a great significance for a certain town, but not necessarily for the whole province, why can't the local government declare it a heritage site ...

What's interesting is in Mexico, where as far as I know churches or the most important churches are owned by the state. There are similarities between both countries and yet Mexico's churches and colonial cities are more preserved than ours. And if I'm not mistaken, Mexico has a history that is anti-clerical. They also have several UNESCO heritage sites.

overtureph

August 25th, 2008, 03:58 PM

bay, living churches pa ang philippines kay kusog pa man moamot ang mga tawo sa simbahan ... unlike here in europe that they are selling their churches ´cause the diocese could not afford anymore to maintain its churches. i heard the archdiocese of berlin is closing about 50 churches and they are for sale!!!

i think it takes time before people would understand what heritage thing is all about ... i think even in europe this is just a recent development ... cause i know some churches in germany whose paintings on the wall or ceiling were removed right after the second vatican council because the priests at that time believed that those paintings no longer conformed to the new liturgical norms of the church ... some were restored recently, others not.

heritage conservation, as i see it in germany, succeeds because the state is strong enough to regulate the activities of its citizen with regard to structures declared as heritage site. the state set the standard. it is the one who declares, which monument/structures which ought to be protected. in germany it is more effecient because it is more localized. each state has its own law on heritage protection and in every county there is a certain office which deals with these things. once a monument or structure is declared a heritage site, everything is documented: e.g., the color of the wall, the type of material used, etc. so when a private owner of a structure, which has been declared by the state as heritage site, wants to repair or renovate that structure, he has to inform that certain office. and that office set the rules - what can be done and not. the owner also gets incentive from the state. but if the rules are not followed, the owner can be penalized by the state.

it is quite problematic in the philippines in declaring a heritage site because, as i see it, everything is so centralized ... we always have to wait for NHI ... i think we need the local government in heritage conservation ... if a certain structure has a great significance for a certain town, but not necessarily for the whole province, why can't the local government declare it a heritage site ...

What's interesting is in Mexico, where as far as I know churches or the most important churches are owned by the state. There are similarities between both countries and yet Mexico's churches and colonial cities are more preserved than ours. And if I'm not mistaken, Mexico has a history that is anti-clerical. They also have several UNESCO heritage sites.

parianon

August 25th, 2008, 05:28 PM

it is ironic. in germany, they have well preserved heritage sites and for sure, that include churches, yet many Germans have turned their back on the catholic church like elsewhere in europe.

in mexico, the anti-church liberals eventually had an upperhand against the conservatives (loyal to the Church) after a long history of conflict throughout most of its post-colonial history, and effectively stripped the catholic church most of its landholdings, possessions and power over the country's politics. yet, the state managed to preserve their Spanish era churches.

Probably why in the philippines, heritage sites like churches aren't well preserved is because whether we like it or not, they still are used by the faithful freely (no state intervention, like in mexico i suppose). We still have "living churches" and a blurred separation of church and state.

that dilemma was never more pronounced than in the renovation of the cebu cathedral. the archdiocese was torn between preserving the past, and making the church responsive to the needs of today's faithful who are still very much around thankfully. the result was a century old-facade, and a neoclassical inside with modern amenities. (i agree, when are they going to stop renovating? every time i go there, something is changed. first, the chair, then the altar...)

heritage is both tangible and intangible. dr. erlinda alburo of the cebuano studies center in a forum sponsored by the casa gorodo museum last year, called for efforts for the preservation of both.

Last June 16 to 19, 2008 Unesco held a Convention for the Safeguarding of the Intangible Cultural Heritage which include oral traditions and expressions, performing arts, social practices and rituals, traditional craftsmanship, etc.

we just have to strike a balance somewhere and not forget heritage is also in the intangibles, and that includes our Christian faith. And before i forget to mention my beloved Parian, it's a faith that has been well-handed down by faithful mestizo-sangleyes converted and educated by the Jesuits in Parian.

parianon

August 25th, 2008, 05:28 PM

gee

August 26th, 2008, 09:44 AM

gee

August 26th, 2008, 09:44 AM