The narrow road beside the Cathedral going all the way to M. J. Cuenco Avenue is P. Gomez Street. This is interesting, hehehe.

But the article says that the house is across the cathedral, ummmm. Could it be possible that there was also a "Spanish" house behind or beside the site of the then Obispado?

Wow, naa diay Cebu Historial Society sa una.



Below is the document regarding the building that Ang Bantayanon referred to. I showed it to him this afternoon while he was as usual his busy-ness digitizing so many Bag-Ong Kusog issues, while Resil Mojares was also busy preparing for his Emeritus Lectures Series which starts tomorrow.

This is the 1967 demolition of a Spanish-period building owned by the Catholic Church, and located across the Cathedral. Since it is not named as the Archbishop's Palace or even part of it, then we can safely assume that this is that other wing near the palace, to its left, when looking at it from the Cathedral.

It appears to be the first direct action activity to preserve a heritage structure in Cebu---one for the record books!


http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/jbersales/heritagecampaign1967.jpg




Strangely enough if you look at the pre-1960 photo below, the only tile-roofed structure I see is the one furhter behind the Cathedral Convent (now the museum), which is across from the narrow street at the side of the Cathedral, a small building with dark roof..maybe this narrow street is P. Gomez?


http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/jbersales/cebucathedrallow.jpg

The narrow road beside the Cathedral going all the way to M. J. Cuenco Avenue is P. Gomez Street. This is interesting, hehehe.

But the article says that the house is across the cathedral, ummmm. Could it be possible that there was also a "Spanish" house behind or beside the site of the then Obispado?

Wow, naa diay Cebu Historial Society sa una.



Below is the document regarding the building that Ang Bantayanon referred to. I showed it to him this afternoon while he was as usual his busy-ness digitizing so many Bag-Ong Kusog issues, while Resil Mojares was also busy preparing for his Emeritus Lectures Series which starts tomorrow.

This is the 1967 demolition of a Spanish-period building owned by the Catholic Church, and located across the Cathedral. Since it is not named as the Archbishop's Palace or even part of it, then we can safely assume that this is that other wing near the palace, to its left, when looking at it from the Cathedral.

It appears to be the first direct action activity to preserve a heritage structure in Cebu---one for the record books!


http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/jbersales/heritagecampaign1967.jpg




Strangely enough if you look at the pre-1960 photo below, the only tile-roofed structure I see is the one furhter behind the Cathedral Convent (now the museum), which is across from the narrow street at the side of the Cathedral, a small building with dark roof..maybe this narrow street is P. Gomez?


http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/jbersales/cebucathedrallow.jpg

http://www.pacificwrecks.com/provinces/philippines/cebu/cebu-cathedral.jpg



It's good that they did not demolish the cathedral after the war.

With only its walls, facade, and belfry remaining, this damaged cathedral reminds me of Oslob Church right after it was gutted down.

Anyway, I went to mass at the cathedral yesterday, the interiors are now brightly lit by warm lights.

The plaza is also nearing completion, paved with red brick pavers.

The facade itself is already very clean.

Kudos to Fadz Brian and the rest of the cathedral people. Now I'm waiting for the retablos, hehehe.

http://www.pacificwrecks.com/provinces/philippines/cebu/cebu-cathedral.jpg



It's good that they did not demolish the cathedral after the war.

With only its walls, facade, and belfry remaining, this damaged cathedral reminds me of Oslob Church right after it was gutted down.

Anyway, I went to mass at the cathedral yesterday, the interiors are now brightly lit by warm lights.

The plaza is also nearing completion, paved with red brick pavers.

The facade itself is already very clean.

Kudos to Fadz Brian and the rest of the cathedral people. Now I'm waiting for the retablos, hehehe.

whats the status on the subject of elevating the cebu metropolitan cathedral into a basilica on its 75th founding anniversary? is it a given or done deal? any requirements for the cathedral to comply so its wish will be granted. if so, cebu will have two basilica minores just a block away from each other. what a blessing and honor that will be for the cebuano catholics in particular and the whole visayas and country as a whole.

whats the status on the subject of elevating the cebu metropolitan cathedral into a basilica on its 75th founding anniversary? is it a given or done deal? any requirements for the cathedral to comply so its wish will be granted. if so, cebu will have two basilica minores just a block away from each other. what a blessing and honor that will be for the cebuano catholics in particular and the whole visayas and country as a whole.

post ni @archaeologue niadtong sept 2007 pa

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/dakongsawa/littlefloweracademy.jpg

post ni @archaeologue niadtong sept 2007 pa

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/dakongsawa/littlefloweracademy.jpg

whats the status on the subject of elevating the cebu metropolitan cathedral into a basilica on its 75th founding anniversary? is it a given or done deal? any requirements for the cathedral to comply so its wish will be granted. if so, cebu will have two basilica minores just a block away from each other. what a blessing and honor that will be for the cebuano catholics in particular and the whole visayas and country as a whole.

I heard that one of the requirements being a Basilica is a devotion to a particular patron saint but I do not know whether this is true.

Is Cebu Metropolitan Cathedral dedicated to Saint Vidal?

whats the status on the subject of elevating the cebu metropolitan cathedral into a basilica on its 75th founding anniversary? is it a given or done deal? any requirements for the cathedral to comply so its wish will be granted. if so, cebu will have two basilica minores just a block away from each other. what a blessing and honor that will be for the cebuano catholics in particular and the whole visayas and country as a whole.

I heard that one of the requirements being a Basilica is a devotion to a particular patron saint but I do not know whether this is true.

Is Cebu Metropolitan Cathedral dedicated to Saint Vidal?

I heard that one of the requirements being a Basilica is a devotion to a particular patron saint but I do not know whether this is true.

Is Cebu Metropolitan Cathedral dedicated to Saint Vidal?

i think its saint vitales. im not sure either but the feast of immaculate heart of mary is big in the cathedral. i used to go to the cathedral for the novena of st. jude.

I heard that one of the requirements being a Basilica is a devotion to a particular patron saint but I do not know whether this is true.

Is Cebu Metropolitan Cathedral dedicated to Saint Vidal?

i think its saint vitales. im not sure either but the feast of immaculate heart of mary is big in the cathedral. i used to go to the cathedral for the novena of st. jude.

post ni @archaeologue niadtong sept 2007 pa

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/dakongsawa/littlefloweracademy.jpg

Hurray, Gee! Yes, this is the building that was demolished in 1967! And clearly, the photo was taken from the roof of the Cathedral. This building used to be behind the Cathedral Convent.

I believe the source of this photo is the Album Conmemorativo of the elevation of the diocese into Archdiocese in 1934, right?


Weep, all ye who care for history and heritage! What a loss!

post ni @archaeologue niadtong sept 2007 pa

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/dakongsawa/littlefloweracademy.jpg

Hurray, Gee! Yes, this is the building that was demolished in 1967! And clearly, the photo was taken from the roof of the Cathedral. This building used to be behind the Cathedral Convent.

I believe the source of this photo is the Album Conmemorativo of the elevation of the diocese into Archdiocese in 1934, right?


Weep, all ye who care for history and heritage! What a loss!

This isn't the doc yet. The doc is saw had a picture of Prof. Jumalon. Anyway, the search goes on. :banana:


Yes, i remember seeing that photo sa newspaper somewhere...


Triz, I have a strong feeling that the Jumalon family may have photos of the building. Maybe it is time to call them no? hehehe...ikaw la'y tawag...

This isn't the doc yet. The doc is saw had a picture of Prof. Jumalon. Anyway, the search goes on. :banana:


Yes, i remember seeing that photo sa newspaper somewhere...


Triz, I have a strong feeling that the Jumalon family may have photos of the building. Maybe it is time to call them no? hehehe...ikaw la'y tawag...

^^ What more with the Opon Regla Church? Destroyed also in the 1960's. What's with the people back then why were they destroying centuries old establishments with newer edifice?

Opon Church was a big tragedy since it was not destroyed by fire nor earthquake but by men in sutanas. Kagwapa jud sa Opon Church sa una, nganu ila gipang-guba! Tsk!

^^ What more with the Opon Regla Church? Destroyed also in the 1960's. What's with the people back then why were they destroying centuries old establishments with newer edifice?

Opon Church was a big tragedy since it was not destroyed by fire nor earthquake but by men in sutanas. Kagwapa jud sa Opon Church sa una, nganu ila gipang-guba! Tsk!

^^ the birth of cebuano patriotism. :D:D:D waray man mi so manghinaot nalang ko na naa pud unta researchers gikan sa amo na mo-posts for our region.

It's time to start re-reading the old issues of Leyte-Samar Studies, the defunct scholarly journal published by the SVD Fathers of the former Divine Word Univ. in Tacloban.

The articles published in this journal are some of the best about Leyte and Samar anthropology, history, and sociology.

Why don't you start a thread for Waray-Waray Heritage?

Let's drink to that! :cheers:

P.s. maaram man ak magyakan han waray...hahaha...mao ra na.

^^ the birth of cebuano patriotism. :D:D:D waray man mi so manghinaot nalang ko na naa pud unta researchers gikan sa amo na mo-posts for our region.

It's time to start re-reading the old issues of Leyte-Samar Studies, the defunct scholarly journal published by the SVD Fathers of the former Divine Word Univ. in Tacloban.

The articles published in this journal are some of the best about Leyte and Samar anthropology, history, and sociology.

Why don't you start a thread for Waray-Waray Heritage?

Let's drink to that! :cheers:

P.s. maaram man ak magyakan han waray...hahaha...mao ra na.

^^ What more with the Opon Regla Church? Destroyed also in the 1960's. What's with the people back then why were they destroying centuries old establishments with newer edifice?

Opon Church was a big tragedy since it was not destroyed by fire nor earthquake but by men in sutanas. Kagwapa jud sa Opon Church sa una, nganu ila gipang-guba! Tsk!


The Swedish rock group of the 1980s has an answer to that:

"Money, Money, Money!
Always sunny, in a rich man's world!" - ABBA

^^ What more with the Opon Regla Church? Destroyed also in the 1960's. What's with the people back then why were they destroying centuries old establishments with newer edifice?

Opon Church was a big tragedy since it was not destroyed by fire nor earthquake but by men in sutanas. Kagwapa jud sa Opon Church sa una, nganu ila gipang-guba! Tsk!


The Swedish rock group of the 1980s has an answer to that:

"Money, Money, Money!
Always sunny, in a rich man's world!" - ABBA

^^ Unya matud sa libro ni Fr. Gallende nga nag-hinulsol (nagsisisi in Tagalog, I dunno what's the Cebuano for it, sorry) ang Dutch priests ato sa ila gihimo...in the first place why were they there? I thought that most of the town parishes back then were under the secular clergy (direct from the Archdiocese).

^^ Unya matud sa libro ni Fr. Gallende nga nag-hinulsol (nagsisisi in Tagalog, I dunno what's the Cebuano for it, sorry) ang Dutch priests ato sa ila gihimo...in the first place why were they there? I thought that most of the town parishes back then were under the secular clergy (direct from the Archdiocese).

The narrow road beside the Cathedral going all the way to M. J. Cuenco Avenue is P. Gomez Street. This is interesting, hehehe.

But the article says that the house is across the cathedral, ummmm. Could it be possible that there was also a "Spanish" house behind or beside the site of the then Obispado?

Wow, naa diay Cebu Historial Society sa una.

I think sakto jud ni. It just says "across from the Cathedral", not "across the Cathedral" nor "facing the Cathedral"--lahi man ang buot ipasabot sa latter two phrases. Mao jud ni sya, Dong Arnold_Carl. Or else, my English is bad. :lol:

The narrow road beside the Cathedral going all the way to M. J. Cuenco Avenue is P. Gomez Street. This is interesting, hehehe.

But the article says that the house is across the cathedral, ummmm. Could it be possible that there was also a "Spanish" house behind or beside the site of the then Obispado?

Wow, naa diay Cebu Historial Society sa una.

I think sakto jud ni. It just says "across from the Cathedral", not "across the Cathedral" nor "facing the Cathedral"--lahi man ang buot ipasabot sa latter two phrases. Mao jud ni sya, Dong Arnold_Carl. Or else, my English is bad. :lol:

^^ Unya matud sa libro ni Fr. Gallende nga nag-hinulsol (nagsisisi in Tagalog, I dunno what's the Cebuano for it, sorry) ang Dutch priests ato sa ila gihimo...in the first place why were they there? I thought that most of the town parishes back then were under the secular clergy (direct from the Archdiocese).

the islands of mactan and camotes are under the pastoral care of the missionaries of sacred heart (msc) ... before they accepted filipinos to their congregation most of them (if not all of them) were dutch

^^ Unya matud sa libro ni Fr. Gallende nga nag-hinulsol (nagsisisi in Tagalog, I dunno what's the Cebuano for it, sorry) ang Dutch priests ato sa ila gihimo...in the first place why were they there? I thought that most of the town parishes back then were under the secular clergy (direct from the Archdiocese).

the islands of mactan and camotes are under the pastoral care of the missionaries of sacred heart (msc) ... before they accepted filipinos to their congregation most of them (if not all of them) were dutch

this is the type of philippine social studies lesson that we should have learned. we never knew the rich historical contribution of cebu kay unsa man intawon to atong phippine history nga napuros raman manila. lahi siguro ang mga perspective sa mga cebuanos ug bisaya karon if our social studies class is more of cebu-centric. seeing the phillipines and the world from the cradle of recorded philippine civilization-that is cebu.

you flatter me, MatudNilaBaby :lol:...bitaw, thanks for the compliment but i think all of us deserve kudos for being noisy here hahahahahaha!!!

seriously, the 55-volume history of the towns and cities of cebu as well as the history of the Capitol and of the province will be finished by December.

When these are printed and distributed to the schools, this will be the day history will really, really matter in Cebu.

this is the type of philippine social studies lesson that we should have learned. we never knew the rich historical contribution of cebu kay unsa man intawon to atong phippine history nga napuros raman manila. lahi siguro ang mga perspective sa mga cebuanos ug bisaya karon if our social studies class is more of cebu-centric. seeing the phillipines and the world from the cradle of recorded philippine civilization-that is cebu.

you flatter me, MatudNilaBaby :lol:...bitaw, thanks for the compliment but i think all of us deserve kudos for being noisy here hahahahahaha!!!

seriously, the 55-volume history of the towns and cities of cebu as well as the history of the Capitol and of the province will be finished by December.

When these are printed and distributed to the schools, this will be the day history will really, really matter in Cebu.

good thing they did not replace the magellan's kiosk with galvanized sheets. hehe.

anyways, gahisgot naman lang jud tag historical relics, I dont know if this has been discusssed here already but I just want to ask.. What happened to the Ecce Hommo which was said to have been brought by the Magellan expedition along with the S. Nino? Is it really the one in San Agustin Museum in Intramuros? If it is, then why is it in a museum rather than inside the church so it could be venerated properly?

good thing they did not replace the magellan's kiosk with galvanized sheets. hehe.

anyways, gahisgot naman lang jud tag historical relics, I dont know if this has been discusssed here already but I just want to ask.. What happened to the Ecce Hommo which was said to have been brought by the Magellan expedition along with the S. Nino? Is it really the one in San Agustin Museum in Intramuros? If it is, then why is it in a museum rather than inside the church so it could be venerated properly?

It's time to start re-reading the old issues of Leyte-Samar Studies, the defunct scholarly journal published by the SVD Fathers of the former Divine Word Univ. in Tacloban.

The articles published in this journal are some of the best about Leyte and Samar anthropology, history, and sociology.

Why don't you start a thread for Waray-Waray Heritage?

Let's drink to that! :cheers:

P.s. maaram man ak magyakan han waray...hahaha...mao ra na.

maayo man diay ka mu-waray. hehehe... isa ray sayop ang "han" (maaram man ak magyakan hin waray....hahaha) sakto pud nang hahaha kay sa amo "hahaha..." gyud na sya. kay kung sa sugbuanon pa daw sya kay "sasasa..." daw. hehehe bitaw sensya na korny pero sa amo man gud ang sentence na "si kulas niadto sa bohol." kay mahimo man gud na "hi kulas kumadto ha bohol."

naa pa gani yagayaga na istorya na ang nagtukod daw sa tacloban kay mga ngongo daw mao napuros na daw "h" ang kasulti. "ha, hi, han, hin" imbis na "sin-o" sa amo kay "hin-o". :D

salamat gyud kaayo sa information nimo about SVD journal kay kung naa tay panahon ato nang lilion. saun kay busy pa man ta nagpadaghan ug sapi kay ingon man gud nila unsaon kuno ang heritage kung gipangutom ta. :D pagkalisud gyud usahay apan manghinaut nalang ta na kadaug tag lotto ani aron ato ning pangunahan ang dakong buhatonon alang sa heritage studies sa atong lugar.

It's time to start re-reading the old issues of Leyte-Samar Studies, the defunct scholarly journal published by the SVD Fathers of the former Divine Word Univ. in Tacloban.

The articles published in this journal are some of the best about Leyte and Samar anthropology, history, and sociology.

Why don't you start a thread for Waray-Waray Heritage?

Let's drink to that! :cheers:

P.s. maaram man ak magyakan han waray...hahaha...mao ra na.

maayo man diay ka mu-waray. hehehe... isa ray sayop ang "han" (maaram man ak magyakan hin waray....hahaha) sakto pud nang hahaha kay sa amo "hahaha..." gyud na sya. kay kung sa sugbuanon pa daw sya kay "sasasa..." daw. hehehe bitaw sensya na korny pero sa amo man gud ang sentence na "si kulas niadto sa bohol." kay mahimo man gud na "hi kulas kumadto ha bohol."

naa pa gani yagayaga na istorya na ang nagtukod daw sa tacloban kay mga ngongo daw mao napuros na daw "h" ang kasulti. "ha, hi, han, hin" imbis na "sin-o" sa amo kay "hin-o". :D

salamat gyud kaayo sa information nimo about SVD journal kay kung naa tay panahon ato nang lilion. saun kay busy pa man ta nagpadaghan ug sapi kay ingon man gud nila unsaon kuno ang heritage kung gipangutom ta. :D pagkalisud gyud usahay apan manghinaut nalang ta na kadaug tag lotto ani aron ato ning pangunahan ang dakong buhatonon alang sa heritage studies sa atong lugar.

maayo man diay ka mu-waray. hehehe... isa ray sayop ang "han" (maaram man ak magyakan hin waray....hahaha) sakto pud nang hahaha kay sa amo "hahaha..." gyud na sya. kay kung sa sugbuanon pa daw sya kay "sasasa..." daw. hehehe bitaw sensya na korny pero sa amo man gud ang sentence na "si kulas niadto sa bohol." kay mahimo man gud na "hi kulas kumadto ha bohol."

naa pa gani yagayaga na istorya na ang nagtukod daw sa tacloban kay mga ngongo daw mao napuros na daw "h" ang kasulti. "ha, hi, han, hin" imbis na "sin-o" sa amo kay "hin-o". :D

salamat gyud kaayo sa information nimo about SVD journal kay kung naa tay panahon ato nang lilion. saun kay busy pa man ta nagpadaghan ug sapi kay ingon man gud nila unsaon kuno ang heritage kung gipangutom ta. :D pagkalisud gyud usahay apan manghinaut nalang ta na kadaug tag lotto ani aron ato ning pangunahan ang dakong buhatonon alang sa heritage studies sa atong lugar.

A kumadto ayhan si Kulas sa Bohol? :banana:

That's a good observation Bukid. But how do we make the grassroots understand heritage if they are starving? Many are even forced to sell their precious family heirlooms just to survive. :ohno: Bitaw, lotto isn't also an answer because you have to bet on 13 million number combinations to win the pot prize of P130 Million. :ohno: Kung pwede pa lang! :banana:

maayo man diay ka mu-waray. hehehe... isa ray sayop ang "han" (maaram man ak magyakan hin waray....hahaha) sakto pud nang hahaha kay sa amo "hahaha..." gyud na sya. kay kung sa sugbuanon pa daw sya kay "sasasa..." daw. hehehe bitaw sensya na korny pero sa amo man gud ang sentence na "si kulas niadto sa bohol." kay mahimo man gud na "hi kulas kumadto ha bohol."

naa pa gani yagayaga na istorya na ang nagtukod daw sa tacloban kay mga ngongo daw mao napuros na daw "h" ang kasulti. "ha, hi, han, hin" imbis na "sin-o" sa amo kay "hin-o". :D

salamat gyud kaayo sa information nimo about SVD journal kay kung naa tay panahon ato nang lilion. saun kay busy pa man ta nagpadaghan ug sapi kay ingon man gud nila unsaon kuno ang heritage kung gipangutom ta. :D pagkalisud gyud usahay apan manghinaut nalang ta na kadaug tag lotto ani aron ato ning pangunahan ang dakong buhatonon alang sa heritage studies sa atong lugar.

A kumadto ayhan si Kulas sa Bohol? :banana:

That's a good observation Bukid. But how do we make the grassroots understand heritage if they are starving? Many are even forced to sell their precious family heirlooms just to survive. :ohno: Bitaw, lotto isn't also an answer because you have to bet on 13 million number combinations to win the pot prize of P130 Million. :ohno: Kung pwede pa lang! :banana:

seriously, the 55-volume history of the towns and cities of cebu as well as the history of the Capitol and of the province will be finished by December.

When these are printed and distributed to the schools, this will be the day history will really, really matter in Cebu.

"When these are printed and distributed to the schools, this will be the day history will really, really matter in Cebu" yes, this is most true.

Nahisgutan naman to dinhi ang WWII, hope ang musonod will be of some help to the undertaking, specially sa bantayan.

from Philippine Emergency and Guerilla Currency of WWII
Neil Shafer
Western Publishing Company Inc.
Copyright 1974

http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp117/TagaBogo/Postcard/page1.jpg

http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp117/TagaBogo/Postcard/page2.jpg

http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp117/TagaBogo/Postcard/page3.jpg

http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp117/TagaBogo/Postcard/page4.jpg

http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp117/TagaBogo/Postcard/page5.jpg

seriously, the 55-volume history of the towns and cities of cebu as well as the history of the Capitol and of the province will be finished by December.

When these are printed and distributed to the schools, this will be the day history will really, really matter in Cebu.

"When these are printed and distributed to the schools, this will be the day history will really, really matter in Cebu" yes, this is most true.

Nahisgutan naman to dinhi ang WWII, hope ang musonod will be of some help to the undertaking, specially sa bantayan.

from Philippine Emergency and Guerilla Currency of WWII
Neil Shafer
Western Publishing Company Inc.
Copyright 1974

http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp117/TagaBogo/Postcard/page1.jpg

http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp117/TagaBogo/Postcard/page2.jpg

http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp117/TagaBogo/Postcard/page3.jpg

http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp117/TagaBogo/Postcard/page4.jpg

http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp117/TagaBogo/Postcard/page5.jpg

A kumadto ayhan si Kulas sa Bohol? :banana:

That's a good observation Bukid. But how do we make the grassroots understand heritage if they are starving? Many are even forced to sell their precious family heirlooms just to survive. :ohno: Bitaw, lotto isn't also an answer because you have to bet on 13 million number combinations to win the pot prize of P130 Million. :ohno: Kung pwede pa lang! :banana:

dili ra man tingali ang grassroots ang kinahanglang nga i-edukar bahin sa heritage ... morag mas kinahanglanon pod i-edukar ang gobyerno ug ang simbahan kay sila ra bayay naay kwarta ug gahom aron pagguba, "pagpaanindot" kuno o pag-modernize sa mga heritage sites.

A kumadto ayhan si Kulas sa Bohol? :banana:

That's a good observation Bukid. But how do we make the grassroots understand heritage if they are starving? Many are even forced to sell their precious family heirlooms just to survive. :ohno: Bitaw, lotto isn't also an answer because you have to bet on 13 million number combinations to win the pot prize of P130 Million. :ohno: Kung pwede pa lang! :banana:

dili ra man tingali ang grassroots ang kinahanglang nga i-edukar bahin sa heritage ... morag mas kinahanglanon pod i-edukar ang gobyerno ug ang simbahan kay sila ra bayay naay kwarta ug gahom aron pagguba, "pagpaanindot" kuno o pag-modernize sa mga heritage sites.

A kumadto ayhan si Kulas sa Bohol? :banana:

That's a good observation Bukid. But how do we make the grassroots understand heritage if they are starving? Many are even forced to sell their precious family heirlooms just to survive. :ohno: Bitaw, lotto isn't also an answer because you have to bet on 13 million number combinations to win the pot prize of P130 Million. :ohno: Kung pwede pa lang! :banana:

bitaw, daghan na pud ko nadunggan sa amo na giprenda o gipamaligya ang ila mga karaan na alahas ug mga gamit tungod sa panginahanglanon ug naay uban kay heirloom gyud so karaan na gyud sya na mga butang. di gyud nila ma-appreciate ang heritage kay kinahanglan man pud nila ug makaon, ato pud education dri di man pud gyud libre. tinuod libre ang tuition apan inig mag-project na intawn maluoy ta ani nila kay magkabuang pangitag kuarta mao ang uban di nalang mu-eskwela. usahay kung naa pay mga school program sa stage magkabuang pa sila pangabang ug costume.

pero ge lang sa sunod puhon basin makadaog ko kay naa ra ba to nanghatag ug numero diri sa ssc. :D makadaog gani ko padad-an nalang mo nako ug pang-christmas party ninyo karon tuig. :D

A kumadto ayhan si Kulas sa Bohol? :banana:

That's a good observation Bukid. But how do we make the grassroots understand heritage if they are starving? Many are even forced to sell their precious family heirlooms just to survive. :ohno: Bitaw, lotto isn't also an answer because you have to bet on 13 million number combinations to win the pot prize of P130 Million. :ohno: Kung pwede pa lang! :banana:

bitaw, daghan na pud ko nadunggan sa amo na giprenda o gipamaligya ang ila mga karaan na alahas ug mga gamit tungod sa panginahanglanon ug naay uban kay heirloom gyud so karaan na gyud sya na mga butang. di gyud nila ma-appreciate ang heritage kay kinahanglan man pud nila ug makaon, ato pud education dri di man pud gyud libre. tinuod libre ang tuition apan inig mag-project na intawn maluoy ta ani nila kay magkabuang pangitag kuarta mao ang uban di nalang mu-eskwela. usahay kung naa pay mga school program sa stage magkabuang pa sila pangabang ug costume.

pero ge lang sa sunod puhon basin makadaog ko kay naa ra ba to nanghatag ug numero diri sa ssc. :D makadaog gani ko padad-an nalang mo nako ug pang-christmas party ninyo karon tuig. :D

dili ra man tingali ang grassroots ang kinahanglang nga i-edukar bahin sa heritage ... morag mas kinahanglanon pod i-edukar ang gobyerno ug ang simbahan kay sila ra bayay naay kwarta ug gahom aron pagguba, "pagpaanindot" kuno o pag-modernize sa mga heritage sites.

Hay...mao na.
I think I already gave the quote that churches here in the Philippines are living while Europe's dead and most heritage conservationists want to have the Philippine churches be like their dead cousins in Europe as argued by a priest before...

...and they do even question this: "Asa ang pondo para sa heritage conservation nga gikan sa gobyerno? Modeclare sila unya sige sila hilabot sa affairs sa kaparian...seperate baya ang Church og ang State." - I'll just withold the name of that priest who said that.

dili ra man tingali ang grassroots ang kinahanglang nga i-edukar bahin sa heritage ... morag mas kinahanglanon pod i-edukar ang gobyerno ug ang simbahan kay sila ra bayay naay kwarta ug gahom aron pagguba, "pagpaanindot" kuno o pag-modernize sa mga heritage sites.

Hay...mao na.
I think I already gave the quote that churches here in the Philippines are living while Europe's dead and most heritage conservationists want to have the Philippine churches be like their dead cousins in Europe as argued by a priest before...

...and they do even question this: "Asa ang pondo para sa heritage conservation nga gikan sa gobyerno? Modeclare sila unya sige sila hilabot sa affairs sa kaparian...seperate baya ang Church og ang State." - I'll just withold the name of that priest who said that.

dili ra man tingali ang grassroots ang kinahanglang nga i-edukar bahin sa heritage ... morag mas kinahanglanon pod i-edukar ang gobyerno ug ang simbahan kay sila ra bayay naay kwarta ug gahom aron pagguba, "pagpaanindot" kuno o pag-modernize sa mga heritage sites.

Mao lagi na, Gee, kay daghan kaayo tag angay tagaan og pagtagad. Those in the heritage movement may just be "crying in the wilderness." Wala gyuy mapili -- ma-gobyerno man o ma-simbahan. :ohno:

dili ra man tingali ang grassroots ang kinahanglang nga i-edukar bahin sa heritage ... morag mas kinahanglanon pod i-edukar ang gobyerno ug ang simbahan kay sila ra bayay naay kwarta ug gahom aron pagguba, "pagpaanindot" kuno o pag-modernize sa mga heritage sites.

Mao lagi na, Gee, kay daghan kaayo tag angay tagaan og pagtagad. Those in the heritage movement may just be "crying in the wilderness." Wala gyuy mapili -- ma-gobyerno man o ma-simbahan. :ohno:

...pero ge lang sa sunod puhon basin makadaog ko kay naa ra ba to nanghatag ug numero diri sa ssc. :D makadaog gani ko padad-an nalang mo nako ug pang-christmas party ninyo karon tuig. :D

So thoughtful of you.. pang Christmas party lang diay? :nuts:

...pero ge lang sa sunod puhon basin makadaog ko kay naa ra ba to nanghatag ug numero diri sa ssc. :D makadaog gani ko padad-an nalang mo nako ug pang-christmas party ninyo karon tuig. :D

So thoughtful of you.. pang Christmas party lang diay? :nuts:

So thoughtful of you.. pang Christmas party lang diay? :nuts:

kung paigo ipalit ug bugatti, tagsaan ta mo. :D

So thoughtful of you.. pang Christmas party lang diay? :nuts:

kung paigo ipalit ug bugatti, tagsaan ta mo. :D

Mao lagi na, Gee, kay daghan kaayo tag angay tagaan og pagtagad. Those in the heritage movement may just be "crying in the wilderness." Wala gyuy mapili -- ma-gobyerno man o ma-simbahan. :ohno:

actually trabaho man unta ni sa obispo ....

SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM is the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy promulgated by Pope Paul VI on December 4, 1963 during the First Session of the Second Vatican Council.

"During their philosophical and theological studies, clerics are to be taught about the history and development of sacred art, and about the sound principles governing the production of its works. In consequence they will be able to appreciate and preserve the Church's venerable monuments, and be in a position to aid, by good advice, artists who are engaged in producing works of art." (SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM 129)


ani pa ! gikan sa PONTIFICAL COMMISSION FOR THE CONSERVATION
OF THE ARTISTIC AND HISTORICAL PATRIMONY OF THE CHURCH


Circular letter regarding the cultural and pastoral training
of future priests in their upcoming responsibilities
concerning the artistic and historic heritage of the Church

Rome, October 15,1992



Your Eminence/Excellency,

Our Holy Father John Paul II, earnestly desiring a fruitful valorization of the cultural goods of the Church in the work of evangelization as called for by recent historical events and concerned for the protection of this precious artistic and historic heritage of the Church and of humanity as a whole, has sought to stimulate a renewed dynamism in the Church regarding these values. He therefore established a new Organism within the Roman Curia, which could take care of this particular area of pastoral and cultural activity.

As the Apostolic Constitution "Pastor bonus" became effective, on March 1,1989 the Pontifical Commission for the Conservation of the Artistic and Historic Patrimony of the Church began its activity.

One of the primary and constant concerns which emerged from the survey carried out on the current situation of the artistic and historic collections of the Church throughout the world, is that without a renewed effort on the part of the clergy regarding the conservation of these goods and their cultural and pastoral valorization, and an awareness of their role in the work of evangelization, the liturgy, and the deepening of the faith, that new dynamic wished for by the Constitution "Pastor bonus", will hardly be possible (1).

In addition, we notice the troublesome phenomenon of the improper use of a number of artistic and historic collections of the Church, which have been subtracted from the location for which they were originally intended in order to become part of private dwellings or collections. This occurs either because of the arbitrary actions sometimes carried out by those responsible for the custody of such goods or more often because of the increasing phenomenon of theft. In either case, it is indispensable that priests themselves assume the responsibility of caring for the artistic and historic collections of the Christian community while carrying out an effort for their protection and custody.

On numerous occasions the Holy See has emphasized and called to the attention of pastors this duty by underlining how indispensable it is for them to have, already by the time of their first years of priestly formation, a profound understanding of the value of sacred art. They should be aware of the importance of setting up, protecting and using properly ecclesiastical archives, and of ensuring the conservation and promotion of the library collections for the Christian communities (2).

As we will mention in this very text, the "Ratio Fundamentalis institutionis sacerdotalis", echoing the conciliar Constitution "Sacrosanctum Concilium", has requested that Sacred Liturgy, one of the principal subjects for theological studies, be presented "in connection with other subjects" (3). Within the "Norms" issued by various episcopates for the preparation of the clergy in their respective nations, the following subjects have been included: sacred art, archaeology, archive studies, and library studies as part of the liturgical and pastoral formation. This has been done in order to promote in their future priests an adequate sensitivity and preparation regarding their future responsibility in the area of the artistic and historic collections of the Church.

After an accurate examination of the different situations which one meets in the various particular churches, this Pontifical Commission considers it part of its own task ‑ in collaboration with the Congregation for Catholic Education ‑ to address this letter to the Most Reverend Bishops, to whose care the integral formation of future priests has been assigned, in order to suggest an intensification or the recovery of an effort in promoting an ad equate sensitivity and responsibility concerning the valorization, conservation, custody, and fruition of the artistic and historic collections of the Church on the part of all those who are preparing themselves for the priesthood.

I ‑ AN IMPORTANT PROBLEM FOR THE LIFE OF THE CHURCH

1. Throughout the centuries the Church has traditionally perceived the promotion, the custody, and the valorization of the highest expressions of the human spirit in the artistic and historic fields as an integral part of her ministry.

Besides carrying out a relationship of its own with the integral promotion of man through various cultural and educational initiatives, the Church has announced the Gospel and has perfected the divine cult in many ways with the aid of literary and figurative arts, music, architecture, and by conserving the historic memories and the precious documents of the life and reflection of her faithful. Thanks to these means the message of salvation has been communicated, and continues to be communicated today, to entire multitudes of believers and non‑believers.

This constant attention of the Church has enriched humanity with an immense treasure of testimonials of human ingenuity and its adhesion to the faith. This constitutes a conspicuous part of the cultural patrimony of humanity.

2. The Second Vatican Council, too, has solemnly recalled this responsibility and this ministry of the Church (4). With regard to sacred art, it has dwelled particularly on the artistic formation of the clergy: "The clergy, during the philosophical and theological courses of studies, should also be taught the history and development of sacred art, as well as the healthy principles on which the works of sacred art must be founded, in order that they might appreciate and conserve the venerable monuments of the Church and they might offer adequate advice to artists for the realization of their works"(5). The Council, in fact, has taken into account two important components of the problem, which we would like to submit now to the attention of those individuals and institutions responsible for the formation of future priests.

3. Today, on the one hand, we notice a strong growing awareness of the value of the people's artistic and cultural patrimony taking place in various parts of the world and within different cultures. A new concern has been dedicated to this area. New and more abundant resources have been employed for its conservation and use. Louder cries of protest have been sounded against the risk of its dispersion and destruction.

While humanity has registered the failure of a model of life based on the consumption of the ephemeral and on the uncontested power of technology and while those ideologies which have closed their doors to human transcendence and man's spirituality are now crumbling, we notice a growing appeal for the fruition of those goods typical of the human spirit and characteristic of the superior manifestations of man's genius. In a world menaced by new forms of cruelty and crossed by an increasingly impressive migratory flux which exposes entire populations to live almost uprooted from their own humus, a growing number of men and women are becoming sensitive to the humanizing value of artistic and cultural expressions. As a consequence, there is a growing conviction that their adequate conservation, their protection against dispersion and instrumentalization (which results from their use according to economic standards alone), and their valorization as vehicles of the meaning and value of human life, is truly important for the future of humanity as a whole.

4. On the other hand, we are aware that the effort and the responsibility of contributing to this work of humanization, to this care of the "supplement of the soul" which must be guaranteed to the modem world, gravitate particularly on the Church and ‑ within the Christian community ‑ fall above all on the shoulders of the clergy. Under the guidance of the Bishops and the Successor of St. Peter, they preside authoritatively and guide the work of evangelization which is carried out also through the promotion, the care and the use of cultural goods. To them has been assigned in a very special way the wise and enlightened work of conservation of the community's goods of which a consistent part comes from the works of human ingenuity and the precious testimonials of our fathers' faith. In addition, they have to become promoters of a constant dialogue between the ecclesiastical community and men of culture and artists. This serves to renew a tradition which has given life to immortal masterpieces while contributing to the interior enrichment of art itself, of the community of faithful, and of humanity as a whole.

5. Keeping in mind these considerations and in view of the recent survey conducted by the Pontifical Commission for the Conservation of the Artistic and Historic Patrimony of the Church in the individual particular Churches, we have to say unfortunately that in many cases the preparation of the clergy for this task during these recent years has been quite weak and incomplete if not entirely absent.

It is true that in our modem world priests find themselves facing numerous, urgent and complex problems connected with the work of evangelization and the pastoral guidance of their community. But it is also true that their capacity of managing and evaluating correctly the cultural goods assigned to them is part of their mission which, on the basis of the preceding considerations, certainly does not constitute a secondary or negligible factor. Even in those cases where the relationship between priests and cultural goods is suitably mediated by competent lay people and expert consultants, the ultimate responsibility and above all the pastoral purpose of the use of these goods remains the primary responsibility of those who preside over the community and this requires an adequate preparation.

The negative consequences of a lack of aesthetic and pastoral sensitivity in the management of cultural goods are in many cases evident. They have often been the reason for a justified complaint on the part of ecclesiastical and civil authorities. Thefts have been caused at times by of a serious lack of protection, because of damages, improper and destructive use, illegal sales, incomplete and devastating restorations, inadequate care of the collections, difficulty of dialogue or sterile relations with the world of artiste and experts (6).

6. In view of these phenomena a renewed attention on the part of the entire Church to this problem seems increasingly urgent. Much has been done and much is being carried out even today to correct errors and to prevent negligences. But more remains to be done above all in the area of a renewed sensitivity and information regarding the importance of this primary aspect of the service of the Church in proclaiming the Gospel message and in supporting the true progress of humanity.

Thus, we believe we are facing a real problem whose importance must not escape anyone. It assumes a characteristic of particular urgency if one considers its pertinence to the great task of new evangelization. An adequate solution to this problem will be able to offer new and efficient possibilities in the fields of catechesis, and liturgical pastoral activity, and in a more general way in the area of promotion and diffusion of culture. The latter aspect has never been considered extraneous to the concerns of the Church for the integral development of humanity.

7. On the basis of these considerations, it seems fitting to the Pontifical Commission for the Conservation of the Artistic and Historic Patrimony of the Church to offer to the Most Reverend Bishops and particularly to those responsible for priestly and religious formation a specific contribution to meditate on, along with some practical suggestions on the subject of the preparation of future priests concerning the promotion, protection, and valorization of cultural goods.

Thus we recall and renew a long known tradition which has involved the Church, and in particular the Supreme Pontiffs and the Dicasteries of the Holy See, in often emphasizing solemnly the importance of this problem and the ways to approach it in an efficient manner (7).

The present contribution is very much in agreement with the reflections inspired by the recent Synod of Bishops concerning priestly formation Among the "current circumstances" recalled by this Synod's theme, we can identify in fact what we have already mentioned above. In more than one intervention by synod fathers the theme of cultural goods as ways for evangelization and promotion of the faith has been referred to more or less directly. We find this echoed in the Apostolic Exhortation of our Holy Father John Paul II (8).

8. We intend here to put forth some observations and suggest some priorities regarding four principal points: first and foremost the aim of this intervention and the educational aspects which it intends to underline; second, an analysis of the educational itinerary as a whole and its principal individual components, in order to dwell – as our third point – on the scholastic‑intellectual aspect of this kind of formation. Finally, we will turn to some other considerations regarding the educators and the suitable instruments for an adequate preparation of priests in the promotion, conservation, and valorization of the patrimony of cultural goods assigned to their care.

II ‑ THE AIM OF THIS DOCUMENT

9. This document intends to aid those responsible for the formation of candidates for the priesthood by defining the educational itinerary and above all by suggesting the operative ways and the initiatives turned toward making future priests aware of their task regarding the artistic and historic collections of the Church while inserting these ways organically within their educational curriculum.

Since it deals with beginning or defining an educational program which in recent years has been interrupted or has suffered delays or gaps for various reasons in many ecclesiastical circles, the principal preoccupation is to stimulate a profound reflection on the present situation, the needs and necessities, the resources available or to be employed, in order to create the conditions for setting up concrete initiatives in a gradual and well thought-out manner.

Let us not forget that this is a problem faced in the permanent formation of the clergy as well. However, we want to concentrate our attention at least for the time being on the initial formation of future priests.

10. What we intend to say refers particularly to candidates for the priesthood affiliated to the diocesan Clergy, the Institutes of consecrated life and the Societies of apostolic life. Considering, however, the great responsibility of so many religious lay people and religious women working with cultural goods, this letter is also addressed to candidates being trained in Institutes of consecrated life and lay Societies of apostolic life, male and female, so that they might also be prepared to take into account this aspect of their apostolic activity.
11. We certainly do not mean to prepare experts on the subject of the management of cultural goods. What we want to achieve is simply that pastors acquire that kind of sensitivity and competence which can permit them to attentively evaluate the extent of the values concerned so that they might, on the given occasion, benefit correctly from the collaboration of experts without depending on excessive delegation. Priests must be trained to educate the community under their care to these values. They must be able to collaborate correctly with associations, public and private administrations and organizations dedicated to the protection and promotion of art and the various forms of culture.

12. The area we are referring to does not only include sacred art (architecture, painting, sculpture, mosaics, music, internal decorating, and every other art form connected with the making of the liturgy and the cult), but also libraries, archives, museums many of which are still emerging today and are being renovated or up‑dated with a particular ecclesiastical qualification. The promotion and the care of all these areas is meant to be considered as a service of great value offered to the entire Christian community under whose protection remains such a conspicuous part of the cultural patrimony of humanity.

III ‑ A COMPLETE ITINERARY OF FORMATION AND WHY

13. Before expressing some particular suggestions, we want to recall that particularly in our case of a typical "pastoral formation"; our concern is not only to guarantee the transmission of notions or information regarding cultural goods. More than that, we intend to trace an itinerary of formation which, under various aspects and with different means, wants to ensure the growth of a mature sensitivity for these values in the context of an educational project for every seminary or house of studies.

Cultural goods must be known and appreciated by educated persons who will be able to understand their global value and to benefit from the contemplation of those truths which they communicate.

We find ourselves confronted with a problem that is not only an academic one, but whose roots extend to the global formation of an individual's sensitivity. Consequently, under this perspective and for the majority of cases regarding future priests, it will mean integrating a culture, which in various parts of the world seems to become increasingly technical and efficient. This does not spontaneously favor the assertion of a humanistic mentality which represents an indispensable premise for correctly evaluating the highest and most authentic expressions of the human spirit.

14. The formation must deal above all with this kind of integration particularly if the candidates for the priesthood come from an environment characterized by a prevalent unilateral technical culture and a "scientific mentality", presenting thus serious gaps from the point of view of aesthetic experience, historic and literary sensitivity, a "participating" consciousness toward the artistic world, and above all the capacity of understanding these values.

Students should be involved personally in the learning of this "humanism" which, in its most noble and balanced meaning, reveals itself to be that in dispensable premise and necessary accompaniment for welcoming the evangelical message on the part of single individuals or cultures. As one can perceive, this does not entail only an intellectual effort but rather a global growth of the individual in terms of the level of maturity of his sensitivity, of his religious belief and worship, and his cultural, spiritual, and pastoral levels.

The educational programs of seminaries and houses of studies must enrich themselves in many ways and on selected and planned occasions by suitable experiences and stimuli aimed at increasing this global maturity.

15. It is wise to recall here that the environment where this education takes place represents already in itself a place for educational potential. Even a simple or modem environment will be more or less able to facilitate an atmosphere of recollection and to increase the growth of an adequate aesthetic sensitivity. This is even more hue if one lives in places filled with history and art.

16. Communal life itself can also be important for our objective. Stimulating a sense of active participation and assuming one's responsibility, teaching a spirit of collaboration together with an understanding of one's own limits, increasing the respect for the gifts of others and the capacity of exploiting these gifts by guiding them to the service of the Gospel, are just some of the components of this aspect of education for the presbyteral ministry.

The failure to acquire these human qualities can be one of the more immediate causes of immature behavior with regard to the historic and artistic heritage or of the difficulties encountered in carrying out a correct and fruitful dialogue with the world of artists. Nothing can inhibit an appreciation of the hue and the beautiful more than a narrow mentality.

17. Spiritual formation also assumes great importance in this master. The liturgical life has a very important role in the education of aesthetic sensitivity. The first art school is made up of the celebrations which are held in the formation community. They should be exemplary even in an artistic point of view. This entails a constant verification of their level and their quality in order to avoid opposite excesses of carelessness or bizarre and overwhelming refinement, both contrary to good aesthetic sense.

Communal and individual prayer are also important moments of formation for an artistic sensitivity deeply integrated in the experience of faith itself. Those responsible for spiritual formation must therefore educate to prayer in such a way as to leave space for the dimensions of sensitivity, imagination, and aesthetic contemplation. The latter; if well inserted in the experience of grace and in the welcoming of the Spirit, is by no means distracting or evasive. It is in fact a vehicle for a more profound celebration of "the great works of the Lord."

18. Pastoral practice often meets problems associated with sacred art and art in general.

It is thus necessary that future priests be helped out first of all in not ignoring these problems but in knowing how to recognize, evaluate, and confront them with prudence and pastoral intelligence. Already during their first ministerial experiences, they will thus become aware of the responsibilities that await them as guides of the community of faithful in such a fascinating world rich in resources, but also in need of purification and orientation.

IV ‑ ACADEMIC AND INTELLECTUAL FORMATION

19. What we have said so far certainly does not intend to underestimate the specific contribution of intellectual formation to a solution of our problem through an appropriate structure of academic courses. We only want to place this decisive and essential area of formation within the wider context of the global growth of an individual which should also constitute the aim of academic training.

In the following suggestions we will abide by the indications of the Ratio Fundamentalis which wisely recommend not to "multiply the number of subjects but to try to insert adequately in the already existing ones new issues and aspects." (9)

20. In order to integrate the gaps of past curricula of studies one should favor the contribution of a good high school training in the minor seminary as much as possible or other forms of educational and cultural training of vocations in the first adolescent years.

In the recent Synod of Bishops on the training of future priests many Fathers have dwelled on the necessity of proposing to young and adult vocations an introductory year of theology. During this time one could find adequate placement of courses in art history, history of civilization, and philosophy which can prove to be of great help to the maturity of the humanistic and artistic sensitivity. The post‑synodal document has welcomed this request (10).

21. Philosophy courses should rightly include the presentation of a sufficient group of issues concerning aesthetics.

Systematic theology can present many important themes referring to the "form" of revelation. The latter can be evaluated not only in the light of the transcendentals, the true and the good, but also the beautiful, an aspect too often ignored (11).

Spiritual theology, in particular, will be able to influence positively in this sense through an analysis of subjects like iconology or the influence of the aesthetic element in general on the rise of the most elevated Christian experiences.

The teaching of canoe law should include an analysis of important canons that concern the management of cultural goods and works of art.

The role of the teaching of the liturgy is all the more important since it should emphasize the expressive and communicative value of faith which can be attributed to works of architecture, painting, sculpture music in relations to the sacramental celebrations and the cult.

This is also true for ecclesiastical history and patrology which offer a wide range of possibilities to highlight the creativity of the Christian faith, its capacity to accept and elevate various artistic expressions, the profound relationship which exists between theological reflection, and the inculturation of faith and works of art.

Finally even in pastoral theology, which has recently acquired greater attention in ecclesiastical studies, there are wide areas in which the themes of sacred art, cultural goods, and the role of pastors of the Christian community as responsible guides for such goods, can be treated according to new viewpoints.

22. While recommending, as we mentioned earlier, not to multiply needlessly academic courses, the Ratio Fundamentalis has recognized the role and the importance of special courses and elective subjects (12).

Some national episcopates intent on elaborating the "Norms" for their own seminaries have taken up this initiative (13). They have suggested that courses be planned in which history and the principles of sacred art, Christian archeology, archive science, and library science be included. Such courses can contribute in selecting a number of students who can major in these subjects in order that they might also be able to become a stimulus and an aid to their fellow brothers.

23. We wish that during the revision and up‑dating of all the "Norms" of each Episcopal Conference this section of subject areas be specifically planned for since it falls under the general theme of the "cultural and pastoral formation regarding ecclesiastical cultural goods." We can even say that it is possible right now that every seminary and houses of studies delineate and intensify a specific program on this subject by evaluating the space available within the co‑natural subject matters for the theme of the artistic and historic heritage, as we indicated above (14).

The publication of adequate manuals could be of great use in this sense. They could present, in a unified manner, the essential theses regarding the complex juridical, liturgical, aesthetic, pastoral and technical issue of conservation, restoration, management, and responsibility toward the cultural goods of the Church and the role of future priests in this area.

24. In terms of academic orientation and academic life in general, we should finally underline the utility of specific initiatives such as meetings with artiste and art critics, participation in some of the major artistic events, information and visits to diocesan institutions (for example, diocesan museums, archives, libraries), visits to the most important religious and civil monuments of the diocese.

A direct encounter with the world of art and history, either through a personal acquaintance with those working in this field or through a personal contact with works of art and historic documents, constitutes a particularly efficient educational experience which can not be substituted by theoretical lessons given in school.

EDUCATORS AND MEANS

25. All those responsible for the actual formation should be required to have a good sensitivity toward the problem underlined here because, as we hope to have demonstrated, the acquisition of the right sensitivity in the field of promotion, protection, and valorization of cultural goods depends on various factors which involve the responsibility of all the different components of a seminary education.

Among faculty members, the professors of liturgy and ecclesiastical history acquire particular importance since they embody more directly and explicitly the role of educators of a good aesthetic sensitivity. In this respect the professor of Pastoral Theology has an essential role.

It maybe superfluous to point out that the indications we have mentioned require on the part of these faculty members and in various ways on the part of the entire educational staff of the seminaries and houses of studies a conspicuous effort to keep their professional level up to date.

26. It would be wise in this sense to provide specialized training for those faculty members which could be charged to teach subjects like pastoral work, sacred art, Christian archeology, archive science, library science. Besides what has already been admirably done in many parts of the world as well as by Pontifical Institutes in Rome (15), one could study the possibility of coordinating the available resources and establishing a project for the formation of ecclesiastical workers for cultural goods in each nation or region. This way they could be offered not only the necessary high scientific competence but also the required theological and ecclesiastical sensitivity along with a specific training in teaching these subjects, particularly in seminaries and houses of studies.

Once such programs of specialized training have been set up, those educators and teachers who will then be employed in the educational institutions which offer training for future priests regarding their responsibility in the field of the Church's cultural goods, can be invited to attend.

27. The subject matters involved in the formation of future priests in this particular field are also often subjects taught, either wholly or in part, in the various state or private university departments as part of the bachelor's or masters degrees. It's important that such cultural institutions, particularly those connected with in Catholic Universities, constitute a point of reference and an opportunity for comparison and dialogue for the educational activity of the seminaries and the houses of studies. A similar suggestion can be made concerning museums, library facilities, and non-ecclesiastical archives, which often through various organizational means, carry out interesting cultural activities which the Christian community can not remain extraneous to.

28. A fruitful point of reference for educational values is certainly constituted by the diocesan Commission for sacred art or by other Church organisms which take care of this area with a pastoral aim in mind.

The exchange of individuals, information, and initiatives between these organisms and the seminary and houses of studies is normally one of the most suitable channels for integrating the education of future priests in view of their pastoral care for the arts, the cultural goods of the community, and a concrete preparation for work in this field.

We are sure that Your Excellency, sensitive to all the aspects of pastoral life, will accept the concerns and the suggestions contained in this letter while sharing the solicitude of our Holy Father John Paul II and our own that future priests might be able to confront even those responsibilities associated with the delicate subject of the artistic heritage and the historic documents assigned to their care and promotion.

We hope that Your Excellency will be able to transmit the text of this letter along with your own suggestions and comments, to the responsible Educators and Faculty members of Your Seminary, so that they might have a chance to reflect on the fundamental issues which have motivated it. We hope that they can then design, along with concrete operative lines, the program of institutional studies of their students both with regard to the courses of the six year theological and philosophical training, and the global project of formation, according to the suggestions we have taken the liberty to underline here.

In addition, we would be delighted if during one of the meetings of your clergy, Your Excellency could inform them of the growing effort we ask of them all with regard to our responsibility toward the artistic and historic heritage of the Church from the start of their formation. We thank you Your Excellency for Your attention and concern, and we would be truly grateful for any information concerning the realization of these suggestions in Your Diocese which might enable us to avail ourselves of these experiences as an aid to other Churches.

We take this opportunity to express our deep regards and esteem.

Sincerely Yours in Jesus Christ,

FRANCESCO MARCHISANO
Secretary

MONS. PAOLO RABITTI
Under‑secretary

Mao lagi na, Gee, kay daghan kaayo tag angay tagaan og pagtagad. Those in the heritage movement may just be "crying in the wilderness." Wala gyuy mapili -- ma-gobyerno man o ma-simbahan. :ohno:

actually trabaho man unta ni sa obispo ....

SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM is the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy promulgated by Pope Paul VI on December 4, 1963 during the First Session of the Second Vatican Council.

"During their philosophical and theological studies, clerics are to be taught about the history and development of sacred art, and about the sound principles governing the production of its works. In consequence they will be able to appreciate and preserve the Church's venerable monuments, and be in a position to aid, by good advice, artists who are engaged in producing works of art." (SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM 129)


ani pa ! gikan sa PONTIFICAL COMMISSION FOR THE CONSERVATION
OF THE ARTISTIC AND HISTORICAL PATRIMONY OF THE CHURCH


Circular letter regarding the cultural and pastoral training
of future priests in their upcoming responsibilities
concerning the artistic and historic heritage of the Church

Rome, October 15,1992



Your Eminence/Excellency,

Our Holy Father John Paul II, earnestly desiring a fruitful valorization of the cultural goods of the Church in the work of evangelization as called for by recent historical events and concerned for the protection of this precious artistic and historic heritage of the Church and of humanity as a whole, has sought to stimulate a renewed dynamism in the Church regarding these values. He therefore established a new Organism within the Roman Curia, which could take care of this particular area of pastoral and cultural activity.

As the Apostolic Constitution "Pastor bonus" became effective, on March 1,1989 the Pontifical Commission for the Conservation of the Artistic and Historic Patrimony of the Church began its activity.

One of the primary and constant concerns which emerged from the survey carried out on the current situation of the artistic and historic collections of the Church throughout the world, is that without a renewed effort on the part of the clergy regarding the conservation of these goods and their cultural and pastoral valorization, and an awareness of their role in the work of evangelization, the liturgy, and the deepening of the faith, that new dynamic wished for by the Constitution "Pastor bonus", will hardly be possible (1).

In addition, we notice the troublesome phenomenon of the improper use of a number of artistic and historic collections of the Church, which have been subtracted from the location for which they were originally intended in order to become part of private dwellings or collections. This occurs either because of the arbitrary actions sometimes carried out by those responsible for the custody of such goods or more often because of the increasing phenomenon of theft. In either case, it is indispensable that priests themselves assume the responsibility of caring for the artistic and historic collections of the Christian community while carrying out an effort for their protection and custody.

On numerous occasions the Holy See has emphasized and called to the attention of pastors this duty by underlining how indispensable it is for them to have, already by the time of their first years of priestly formation, a profound understanding of the value of sacred art. They should be aware of the importance of setting up, protecting and using properly ecclesiastical archives, and of ensuring the conservation and promotion of the library collections for the Christian communities (2).

As we will mention in this very text, the "Ratio Fundamentalis institutionis sacerdotalis", echoing the conciliar Constitution "Sacrosanctum Concilium", has requested that Sacred Liturgy, one of the principal subjects for theological studies, be presented "in connection with other subjects" (3). Within the "Norms" issued by various episcopates for the preparation of the clergy in their respective nations, the following subjects have been included: sacred art, archaeology, archive studies, and library studies as part of the liturgical and pastoral formation. This has been done in order to promote in their future priests an adequate sensitivity and preparation regarding their future responsibility in the area of the artistic and historic collections of the Church.

After an accurate examination of the different situations which one meets in the various particular churches, this Pontifical Commission considers it part of its own task ‑ in collaboration with the Congregation for Catholic Education ‑ to address this letter to the Most Reverend Bishops, to whose care the integral formation of future priests has been assigned, in order to suggest an intensification or the recovery of an effort in promoting an ad equate sensitivity and responsibility concerning the valorization, conservation, custody, and fruition of the artistic and historic collections of the Church on the part of all those who are preparing themselves for the priesthood.

I ‑ AN IMPORTANT PROBLEM FOR THE LIFE OF THE CHURCH

1. Throughout the centuries the Church has traditionally perceived the promotion, the custody, and the valorization of the highest expressions of the human spirit in the artistic and historic fields as an integral part of her ministry.

Besides carrying out a relationship of its own with the integral promotion of man through various cultural and educational initiatives, the Church has announced the Gospel and has perfected the divine cult in many ways with the aid of literary and figurative arts, music, architecture, and by conserving the historic memories and the precious documents of the life and reflection of her faithful. Thanks to these means the message of salvation has been communicated, and continues to be communicated today, to entire multitudes of believers and non‑believers.

This constant attention of the Church has enriched humanity with an immense treasure of testimonials of human ingenuity and its adhesion to the faith. This constitutes a conspicuous part of the cultural patrimony of humanity.

2. The Second Vatican Council, too, has solemnly recalled this responsibility and this ministry of the Church (4). With regard to sacred art, it has dwelled particularly on the artistic formation of the clergy: "The clergy, during the philosophical and theological courses of studies, should also be taught the history and development of sacred art, as well as the healthy principles on which the works of sacred art must be founded, in order that they might appreciate and conserve the venerable monuments of the Church and they might offer adequate advice to artists for the realization of their works"(5). The Council, in fact, has taken into account two important components of the problem, which we would like to submit now to the attention of those individuals and institutions responsible for the formation of future priests.

3. Today, on the one hand, we notice a strong growing awareness of the value of the people's artistic and cultural patrimony taking place in various parts of the world and within different cultures. A new concern has been dedicated to this area. New and more abundant resources have been employed for its conservation and use. Louder cries of protest have been sounded against the risk of its dispersion and destruction.

While humanity has registered the failure of a model of life based on the consumption of the ephemeral and on the uncontested power of technology and while those ideologies which have closed their doors to human transcendence and man's spirituality are now crumbling, we notice a growing appeal for the fruition of those goods typical of the human spirit and characteristic of the superior manifestations of man's genius. In a world menaced by new forms of cruelty and crossed by an increasingly impressive migratory flux which exposes entire populations to live almost uprooted from their own humus, a growing number of men and women are becoming sensitive to the humanizing value of artistic and cultural expressions. As a consequence, there is a growing conviction that their adequate conservation, their protection against dispersion and instrumentalization (which results from their use according to economic standards alone), and their valorization as vehicles of the meaning and value of human life, is truly important for the future of humanity as a whole.

4. On the other hand, we are aware that the effort and the responsibility of contributing to this work of humanization, to this care of the "supplement of the soul" which must be guaranteed to the modem world, gravitate particularly on the Church and ‑ within the Christian community ‑ fall above all on the shoulders of the clergy. Under the guidance of the Bishops and the Successor of St. Peter, they preside authoritatively and guide the work of evangelization which is carried out also through the promotion, the care and the use of cultural goods. To them has been assigned in a very special way the wise and enlightened work of conservation of the community's goods of which a consistent part comes from the works of human ingenuity and the precious testimonials of our fathers' faith. In addition, they have to become promoters of a constant dialogue between the ecclesiastical community and men of culture and artists. This serves to renew a tradition which has given life to immortal masterpieces while contributing to the interior enrichment of art itself, of the community of faithful, and of humanity as a whole.

5. Keeping in mind these considerations and in view of the recent survey conducted by the Pontifical Commission for the Conservation of the Artistic and Historic Patrimony of the Church in the individual particular Churches, we have to say unfortunately that in many cases the preparation of the clergy for this task during these recent years has been quite weak and incomplete if not entirely absent.

It is true that in our modem world priests find themselves facing numerous, urgent and complex problems connected with the work of evangelization and the pastoral guidance of their community. But it is also true that their capacity of managing and evaluating correctly the cultural goods assigned to them is part of their mission which, on the basis of the preceding considerations, certainly does not constitute a secondary or negligible factor. Even in those cases where the relationship between priests and cultural goods is suitably mediated by competent lay people and expert consultants, the ultimate responsibility and above all the pastoral purpose of the use of these goods remains the primary responsibility of those who preside over the community and this requires an adequate preparation.

The negative consequences of a lack of aesthetic and pastoral sensitivity in the management of cultural goods are in many cases evident. They have often been the reason for a justified complaint on the part of ecclesiastical and civil authorities. Thefts have been caused at times by of a serious lack of protection, because of damages, improper and destructive use, illegal sales, incomplete and devastating restorations, inadequate care of the collections, difficulty of dialogue or sterile relations with the world of artiste and experts (6).

6. In view of these phenomena a renewed attention on the part of the entire Church to this problem seems increasingly urgent. Much has been done and much is being carried out even today to correct errors and to prevent negligences. But more remains to be done above all in the area of a renewed sensitivity and information regarding the importance of this primary aspect of the service of the Church in proclaiming the Gospel message and in supporting the true progress of humanity.

Thus, we believe we are facing a real problem whose importance must not escape anyone. It assumes a characteristic of particular urgency if one considers its pertinence to the great task of new evangelization. An adequate solution to this problem will be able to offer new and efficient possibilities in the fields of catechesis, and liturgical pastoral activity, and in a more general way in the area of promotion and diffusion of culture. The latter aspect has never been considered extraneous to the concerns of the Church for the integral development of humanity.

7. On the basis of these considerations, it seems fitting to the Pontifical Commission for the Conservation of the Artistic and Historic Patrimony of the Church to offer to the Most Reverend Bishops and particularly to those responsible for priestly and religious formation a specific contribution to meditate on, along with some practical suggestions on the subject of the preparation of future priests concerning the promotion, protection, and valorization of cultural goods.

Thus we recall and renew a long known tradition which has involved the Church, and in particular the Supreme Pontiffs and the Dicasteries of the Holy See, in often emphasizing solemnly the importance of this problem and the ways to approach it in an efficient manner (7).

The present contribution is very much in agreement with the reflections inspired by the recent Synod of Bishops concerning priestly formation Among the "current circumstances" recalled by this Synod's theme, we can identify in fact what we have already mentioned above. In more than one intervention by synod fathers the theme of cultural goods as ways for evangelization and promotion of the faith has been referred to more or less directly. We find this echoed in the Apostolic Exhortation of our Holy Father John Paul II (8).

8. We intend here to put forth some observations and suggest some priorities regarding four principal points: first and foremost the aim of this intervention and the educational aspects which it intends to underline; second, an analysis of the educational itinerary as a whole and its principal individual components, in order to dwell – as our third point – on the scholastic‑intellectual aspect of this kind of formation. Finally, we will turn to some other considerations regarding the educators and the suitable instruments for an adequate preparation of priests in the promotion, conservation, and valorization of the patrimony of cultural goods assigned to their care.

II ‑ THE AIM OF THIS DOCUMENT

9. This document intends to aid those responsible for the formation of candidates for the priesthood by defining the educational itinerary and above all by suggesting the operative ways and the initiatives turned toward making future priests aware of their task regarding the artistic and historic collections of the Church while inserting these ways organically within their educational curriculum.

Since it deals with beginning or defining an educational program which in recent years has been interrupted or has suffered delays or gaps for various reasons in many ecclesiastical circles, the principal preoccupation is to stimulate a profound reflection on the present situation, the needs and necessities, the resources available or to be employed, in order to create the conditions for setting up concrete initiatives in a gradual and well thought-out manner.

Let us not forget that this is a problem faced in the permanent formation of the clergy as well. However, we want to concentrate our attention at least for the time being on the initial formation of future priests.

10. What we intend to say refers particularly to candidates for the priesthood affiliated to the diocesan Clergy, the Institutes of consecrated life and the Societies of apostolic life. Considering, however, the great responsibility of so many religious lay people and religious women working with cultural goods, this letter is also addressed to candidates being trained in Institutes of consecrated life and lay Societies of apostolic life, male and female, so that they might also be prepared to take into account this aspect of their apostolic activity.
11. We certainly do not mean to prepare experts on the subject of the management of cultural goods. What we want to achieve is simply that pastors acquire that kind of sensitivity and competence which can permit them to attentively evaluate the extent of the values concerned so that they might, on the given occasion, benefit correctly from the collaboration of experts without depending on excessive delegation. Priests must be trained to educate the community under their care to these values. They must be able to collaborate correctly with associations, public and private administrations and organizations dedicated to the protection and promotion of art and the various forms of culture.

12. The area we are referring to does not only include sacred art (architecture, painting, sculpture, mosaics, music, internal decorating, and every other art form connected with the making of the liturgy and the cult), but also libraries, archives, museums many of which are still emerging today and are being renovated or up‑dated with a particular ecclesiastical qualification. The promotion and the care of all these areas is meant to be considered as a service of great value offered to the entire Christian community under whose protection remains such a conspicuous part of the cultural patrimony of humanity.

III ‑ A COMPLETE ITINERARY OF FORMATION AND WHY

13. Before expressing some particular suggestions, we want to recall that particularly in our case of a typical "pastoral formation"; our concern is not only to guarantee the transmission of notions or information regarding cultural goods. More than that, we intend to trace an itinerary of formation which, under various aspects and with different means, wants to ensure the growth of a mature sensitivity for these values in the context of an educational project for every seminary or house of studies.

Cultural goods must be known and appreciated by educated persons who will be able to understand their global value and to benefit from the contemplation of those truths which they communicate.

We find ourselves confronted with a problem that is not only an academic one, but whose roots extend to the global formation of an individual's sensitivity. Consequently, under this perspective and for the majority of cases regarding future priests, it will mean integrating a culture, which in various parts of the world seems to become increasingly technical and efficient. This does not spontaneously favor the assertion of a humanistic mentality which represents an indispensable premise for correctly evaluating the highest and most authentic expressions of the human spirit.

14. The formation must deal above all with this kind of integration particularly if the candidates for the priesthood come from an environment characterized by a prevalent unilateral technical culture and a "scientific mentality", presenting thus serious gaps from the point of view of aesthetic experience, historic and literary sensitivity, a "participating" consciousness toward the artistic world, and above all the capacity of understanding these values.

Students should be involved personally in the learning of this "humanism" which, in its most noble and balanced meaning, reveals itself to be that in dispensable premise and necessary accompaniment for welcoming the evangelical message on the part of single individuals or cultures. As one can perceive, this does not entail only an intellectual effort but rather a global growth of the individual in terms of the level of maturity of his sensitivity, of his religious belief and worship, and his cultural, spiritual, and pastoral levels.

The educational programs of seminaries and houses of studies must enrich themselves in many ways and on selected and planned occasions by suitable experiences and stimuli aimed at increasing this global maturity.

15. It is wise to recall here that the environment where this education takes place represents already in itself a place for educational potential. Even a simple or modem environment will be more or less able to facilitate an atmosphere of recollection and to increase the growth of an adequate aesthetic sensitivity. This is even more hue if one lives in places filled with history and art.

16. Communal life itself can also be important for our objective. Stimulating a sense of active participation and assuming one's responsibility, teaching a spirit of collaboration together with an understanding of one's own limits, increasing the respect for the gifts of others and the capacity of exploiting these gifts by guiding them to the service of the Gospel, are just some of the components of this aspect of education for the presbyteral ministry.

The failure to acquire these human qualities can be one of the more immediate causes of immature behavior with regard to the historic and artistic heritage or of the difficulties encountered in carrying out a correct and fruitful dialogue with the world of artists. Nothing can inhibit an appreciation of the hue and the beautiful more than a narrow mentality.

17. Spiritual formation also assumes great importance in this master. The liturgical life has a very important role in the education of aesthetic sensitivity. The first art school is made up of the celebrations which are held in the formation community. They should be exemplary even in an artistic point of view. This entails a constant verification of their level and their quality in order to avoid opposite excesses of carelessness or bizarre and overwhelming refinement, both contrary to good aesthetic sense.

Communal and individual prayer are also important moments of formation for an artistic sensitivity deeply integrated in the experience of faith itself. Those responsible for spiritual formation must therefore educate to prayer in such a way as to leave space for the dimensions of sensitivity, imagination, and aesthetic contemplation. The latter; if well inserted in the experience of grace and in the welcoming of the Spirit, is by no means distracting or evasive. It is in fact a vehicle for a more profound celebration of "the great works of the Lord."

18. Pastoral practice often meets problems associated with sacred art and art in general.

It is thus necessary that future priests be helped out first of all in not ignoring these problems but in knowing how to recognize, evaluate, and confront them with prudence and pastoral intelligence. Already during their first ministerial experiences, they will thus become aware of the responsibilities that await them as guides of the community of faithful in such a fascinating world rich in resources, but also in need of purification and orientation.

IV ‑ ACADEMIC AND INTELLECTUAL FORMATION

19. What we have said so far certainly does not intend to underestimate the specific contribution of intellectual formation to a solution of our problem through an appropriate structure of academic courses. We only want to place this decisive and essential area of formation within the wider context of the global growth of an individual which should also constitute the aim of academic training.

In the following suggestions we will abide by the indications of the Ratio Fundamentalis which wisely recommend not to "multiply the number of subjects but to try to insert adequately in the already existing ones new issues and aspects." (9)

20. In order to integrate the gaps of past curricula of studies one should favor the contribution of a good high school training in the minor seminary as much as possible or other forms of educational and cultural training of vocations in the first adolescent years.

In the recent Synod of Bishops on the training of future priests many Fathers have dwelled on the necessity of proposing to young and adult vocations an introductory year of theology. During this time one could find adequate placement of courses in art history, history of civilization, and philosophy which can prove to be of great help to the maturity of the humanistic and artistic sensitivity. The post‑synodal document has welcomed this request (10).

21. Philosophy courses should rightly include the presentation of a sufficient group of issues concerning aesthetics.

Systematic theology can present many important themes referring to the "form" of revelation. The latter can be evaluated not only in the light of the transcendentals, the true and the good, but also the beautiful, an aspect too often ignored (11).

Spiritual theology, in particular, will be able to influence positively in this sense through an analysis of subjects like iconology or the influence of the aesthetic element in general on the rise of the most elevated Christian experiences.

The teaching of canoe law should include an analysis of important canons that concern the management of cultural goods and works of art.

The role of the teaching of the liturgy is all the more important since it should emphasize the expressive and communicative value of faith which can be attributed to works of architecture, painting, sculpture music in relations to the sacramental celebrations and the cult.

This is also true for ecclesiastical history and patrology which offer a wide range of possibilities to highlight the creativity of the Christian faith, its capacity to accept and elevate various artistic expressions, the profound relationship which exists between theological reflection, and the inculturation of faith and works of art.

Finally even in pastoral theology, which has recently acquired greater attention in ecclesiastical studies, there are wide areas in which the themes of sacred art, cultural goods, and the role of pastors of the Christian community as responsible guides for such goods, can be treated according to new viewpoints.

22. While recommending, as we mentioned earlier, not to multiply needlessly academic courses, the Ratio Fundamentalis has recognized the role and the importance of special courses and elective subjects (12).

Some national episcopates intent on elaborating the "Norms" for their own seminaries have taken up this initiative (13). They have suggested that courses be planned in which history and the principles of sacred art, Christian archeology, archive science, and library science be included. Such courses can contribute in selecting a number of students who can major in these subjects in order that they might also be able to become a stimulus and an aid to their fellow brothers.

23. We wish that during the revision and up‑dating of all the "Norms" of each Episcopal Conference this section of subject areas be specifically planned for since it falls under the general theme of the "cultural and pastoral formation regarding ecclesiastical cultural goods." We can even say that it is possible right now that every seminary and houses of studies delineate and intensify a specific program on this subject by evaluating the space available within the co‑natural subject matters for the theme of the artistic and historic heritage, as we indicated above (14).

The publication of adequate manuals could be of great use in this sense. They could present, in a unified manner, the essential theses regarding the complex juridical, liturgical, aesthetic, pastoral and technical issue of conservation, restoration, management, and responsibility toward the cultural goods of the Church and the role of future priests in this area.

24. In terms of academic orientation and academic life in general, we should finally underline the utility of specific initiatives such as meetings with artiste and art critics, participation in some of the major artistic events, information and visits to diocesan institutions (for example, diocesan museums, archives, libraries), visits to the most important religious and civil monuments of the diocese.

A direct encounter with the world of art and history, either through a personal acquaintance with those working in this field or through a personal contact with works of art and historic documents, constitutes a particularly efficient educational experience which can not be substituted by theoretical lessons given in school.

EDUCATORS AND MEANS

25. All those responsible for the actual formation should be required to have a good sensitivity toward the problem underlined here because, as we hope to have demonstrated, the acquisition of the right sensitivity in the field of promotion, protection, and valorization of cultural goods depends on various factors which involve the responsibility of all the different components of a seminary education.

Among faculty members, the professors of liturgy and ecclesiastical history acquire particular importance since they embody more directly and explicitly the role of educators of a good aesthetic sensitivity. In this respect the professor of Pastoral Theology has an essential role.

It maybe superfluous to point out that the indications we have mentioned require on the part of these faculty members and in various ways on the part of the entire educational staff of the seminaries and houses of studies a conspicuous effort to keep their professional level up to date.

26. It would be wise in this sense to provide specialized training for those faculty members which could be charged to teach subjects like pastoral work, sacred art, Christian archeology, archive science, library science. Besides what has already been admirably done in many parts of the world as well as by Pontifical Institutes in Rome (15), one could study the possibility of coordinating the available resources and establishing a project for the formation of ecclesiastical workers for cultural goods in each nation or region. This way they could be offered not only the necessary high scientific competence but also the required theological and ecclesiastical sensitivity along with a specific training in teaching these subjects, particularly in seminaries and houses of studies.

Once such programs of specialized training have been set up, those educators and teachers who will then be employed in the educational institutions which offer training for future priests regarding their responsibility in the field of the Church's cultural goods, can be invited to attend.

27. The subject matters involved in the formation of future priests in this particular field are also often subjects taught, either wholly or in part, in the various state or private university departments as part of the bachelor's or masters degrees. It's important that such cultural institutions, particularly those connected with in Catholic Universities, constitute a point of reference and an opportunity for comparison and dialogue for the educational activity of the seminaries and the houses of studies. A similar suggestion can be made concerning museums, library facilities, and non-ecclesiastical archives, which often through various organizational means, carry out interesting cultural activities which the Christian community can not remain extraneous to.

28. A fruitful point of reference for educational values is certainly constituted by the diocesan Commission for sacred art or by other Church organisms which take care of this area with a pastoral aim in mind.

The exchange of individuals, information, and initiatives between these organisms and the seminary and houses of studies is normally one of the most suitable channels for integrating the education of future priests in view of their pastoral care for the arts, the cultural goods of the community, and a concrete preparation for work in this field.

We are sure that Your Excellency, sensitive to all the aspects of pastoral life, will accept the concerns and the suggestions contained in this letter while sharing the solicitude of our Holy Father John Paul II and our own that future priests might be able to confront even those responsibilities associated with the delicate subject of the artistic heritage and the historic documents assigned to their care and promotion.

We hope that Your Excellency will be able to transmit the text of this letter along with your own suggestions and comments, to the responsible Educators and Faculty members of Your Seminary, so that they might have a chance to reflect on the fundamental issues which have motivated it. We hope that they can then design, along with concrete operative lines, the program of institutional studies of their students both with regard to the courses of the six year theological and philosophical training, and the global project of formation, according to the suggestions we have taken the liberty to underline here.

In addition, we would be delighted if during one of the meetings of your clergy, Your Excellency could inform them of the growing effort we ask of them all with regard to our responsibility toward the artistic and historic heritage of the Church from the start of their formation. We thank you Your Excellency for Your attention and concern, and we would be truly grateful for any information concerning the realization of these suggestions in Your Diocese which might enable us to avail ourselves of these experiences as an aid to other Churches.

We take this opportunity to express our deep regards and esteem.

Sincerely Yours in Jesus Christ,

FRANCESCO MARCHISANO
Secretary

MONS. PAOLO RABITTI
Under‑secretary

you flatter me, MatudNilaBaby :lol:...bitaw, thanks for the compliment but i think all of us deserve kudos for being noisy here hahahahahaha!!!

seriously, the 55-volume history of the towns and cities of cebu as well as the history of the Capitol and of the province will be finished by December.

When these are printed and distributed to the schools, this will be the day history will really, really matter in Cebu.

This makes me excited...A lot of things that are happening in Cebu now that keeps me inspired everyday...Ganahan ko mopalit ani, unta dili mahal... :)

Speaking of Cathedral to Basilica conversion. If the cathedral will become a basilica already, can it still hold some wedding ceremonies? I am planning to hold my wedding in the cathedral, someday... :)

you flatter me, MatudNilaBaby :lol:...bitaw, thanks for the compliment but i think all of us deserve kudos for being noisy here hahahahahaha!!!

seriously, the 55-volume history of the towns and cities of cebu as well as the history of the Capitol and of the province will be finished by December.

When these are printed and distributed to the schools, this will be the day history will really, really matter in Cebu.

This makes me excited...A lot of things that are happening in Cebu now that keeps me inspired everyday...Ganahan ko mopalit ani, unta dili mahal... :)

Speaking of Cathedral to Basilica conversion. If the cathedral will become a basilica already, can it still hold some wedding ceremonies? I am planning to hold my wedding in the cathedral, someday... :)

^^ Naa nagminyo sa Santo Nino? Pwede na?

^^ Naa nagminyo sa Santo Nino? Pwede na?

^^ Naa nagminyo sa Santo Nino? Pwede na?

So far, wala ko nahibaw-an nga naa nagkasal sa Sto. Nino...Mao nang nabalaka ko, if in case cathedral will be converted to basilica, basin di na pud unya pwede pakasal diha.

^^ Naa nagminyo sa Santo Nino? Pwede na?

So far, wala ko nahibaw-an nga naa nagkasal sa Sto. Nino...Mao nang nabalaka ko, if in case cathedral will be converted to basilica, basin di na pud unya pwede pakasal diha.

^^ Naa pa man ang Redeptorist, hehe! :D

^^ Naa pa man ang Redeptorist, hehe! :D

good thing they did not replace the magellan's kiosk with galvanized sheets. hehe.

anyways, gahisgot naman lang jud tag historical relics, I dont know if this has been discusssed here already but I just want to ask.. What happened to the Ecce Hommo which was said to have been brought by the Magellan expedition along with the S. Nino? Is it really the one in San Agustin Museum in Intramuros? If it is, then why is it in a museum rather than inside the church so it could be venerated properly?

Yes, its the one in the San Agustin museum. You want to ask the Agustinians why its in the museum? I'd like to know too. The Cebu archdiocese should ask for this now that we have a museum. But maybe the Agustinians have a proprietory stance about things brought by Magellan. . .

good thing they did not replace the magellan's kiosk with galvanized sheets. hehe.

anyways, gahisgot naman lang jud tag historical relics, I dont know if this has been discusssed here already but I just want to ask.. What happened to the Ecce Hommo which was said to have been brought by the Magellan expedition along with the S. Nino? Is it really the one in San Agustin Museum in Intramuros? If it is, then why is it in a museum rather than inside the church so it could be venerated properly?

Yes, its the one in the San Agustin museum. You want to ask the Agustinians why its in the museum? I'd like to know too. The Cebu archdiocese should ask for this now that we have a museum. But maybe the Agustinians have a proprietory stance about things brought by Magellan. . .

^^ Naa pa man ang Redeptorist, hehe! :D

The redemptorist church is a parish already.

^^ Naa pa man ang Redeptorist, hehe! :D

The redemptorist church is a parish already.

^^ Naa nagminyo sa Santo Nino? Pwede na?

The reason why weddings cannot be performed in the Sto Nino basilica is because it is not a parish church.

^^ Naa nagminyo sa Santo Nino? Pwede na?

The reason why weddings cannot be performed in the Sto Nino basilica is because it is not a parish church.

you flatter me, MatudNilaBaby :lol:...bitaw, thanks for the compliment but i think all of us deserve kudos for being noisy here hahahahahaha!!!

seriously, the 55-volume history of the towns and cities of cebu as well as the history of the Capitol and of the province will be finished by December.

When these are printed and distributed to the schools, this will be the day history will really, really matter in Cebu.

I can only say AMEN to this!

you flatter me, MatudNilaBaby :lol:...bitaw, thanks for the compliment but i think all of us deserve kudos for being noisy here hahahahahaha!!!

seriously, the 55-volume history of the towns and cities of cebu as well as the history of the Capitol and of the province will be finished by December.

When these are printed and distributed to the schools, this will be the day history will really, really matter in Cebu.

I can only say AMEN to this!

The redemptorist church is a parish already.

The reason why weddings cannot be performed in the Sto Nino basilica is because it is not a parish church.

Thanks for the clarification Madame Loi. :)

The redemptorist church is a parish already.

The reason why weddings cannot be performed in the Sto Nino basilica is because it is not a parish church.

Thanks for the clarification Madame Loi. :)

I think sakto jud ni. It just says "across from the Cathedral", not "across the Cathedral" nor "facing the Cathedral"--lahi man ang buot ipasabot sa latter two phrases. Mao jud ni sya, Dong Arnold_Carl. Or else, my English is bad. :lol:

sakto ka @archaeologue. here's carmelo tamayo's visual conception of cebu city 1935-1941.

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/64/pgomezvc1.jpg

I think sakto jud ni. It just says "across from the Cathedral", not "across the Cathedral" nor "facing the Cathedral"--lahi man ang buot ipasabot sa latter two phrases. Mao jud ni sya, Dong Arnold_Carl. Or else, my English is bad. :lol:

sakto ka @archaeologue. here's carmelo tamayo's visual conception of cebu city 1935-1941.

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/64/pgomezvc1.jpg

^^^^

Ah yes, from the inside back page of Concepcion Briones' Life in Old Parian. Thanks for the confirmation, Gee.

^^^^

Ah yes, from the inside back page of Concepcion Briones' Life in Old Parian. Thanks for the confirmation, Gee.

I can only say AMEN to this!

Ah, coming from one of the distinguished writers! I say, good luck! heheheeh....

:banana:

I can only say AMEN to this!

Ah, coming from one of the distinguished writers! I say, good luck! heheheeh....

:banana:

"When these are printed and distributed to the schools, this will be the day history will really, really matter in Cebu" yes, this is most true.

Nahisgutan naman to dinhi ang WWII, hope ang musonod will be of some help to the undertaking, specially sa bantayan.

from Philippine Emergency and Guerilla Currency of WWII
Neil Shafer
Western Publishing Company Inc.
Copyright 1974

http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp117/TagaBogo/Postcard/page4.jpg


Boy, I think I have Ceb 116 to Ceb 118. they are on display at Museo Sugbo. Bisita na didto oi.

"When these are printed and distributed to the schools, this will be the day history will really, really matter in Cebu" yes, this is most true.

Nahisgutan naman to dinhi ang WWII, hope ang musonod will be of some help to the undertaking, specially sa bantayan.

from Philippine Emergency and Guerilla Currency of WWII
Neil Shafer
Western Publishing Company Inc.
Copyright 1974

http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp117/TagaBogo/Postcard/page4.jpg


Boy, I think I have Ceb 116 to Ceb 118. they are on display at Museo Sugbo. Bisita na didto oi.

I don't think any other Climacos were active during the Revolution and the subsequent war against the Americans.

The Climacos had large landholdings in Toledo, western Cebu, among other places. In fact there is one mountain barangay beside the National Highway leading to Toledo proper that is named after Juan Faller Climaco, which is probably the site of his vast landholdings, now dispersed.

He was born in 1859 and died in 1907. If I'm not mistaken, in 1902 he became the second governor of Cebu, after Julio Llorente relinquished the post.

I believe @Pinoy_Ako, that your curiosity is borne out of the fact that you are related to the Climacos, di ba?

Here is some important loss: in 2004, the ancestral home of Gov. Arsenio Climaco, Juan's brother, burned down due perhaps to faulty wiring---and all the memorabilia in it was lost forever.

Sayang. Huhuhuhu.

Thanks archaeologue. Yes, I'm looking for the members of the Climacos in Metro Manila. In the vecindario that I'd already browsed through, some of the people disappear for some years then reappear in other years. I don't know if this is related to the Quinta or what. At the outset of the Philippine revolution, only the younger siblings are present in the Vecindario, listed under an unknown person, probably a guardian or a distant relative. There is an oral tradition in the family that two members went to the Visayas, but Juan and Arsenio or the name Faller is not present in the documents I looked into. Unfortunately, the town's church was burned during the Fil-American war. They say some of the canonical books of the matrix is in Texas.

I don't think any other Climacos were active during the Revolution and the subsequent war against the Americans.

The Climacos had large landholdings in Toledo, western Cebu, among other places. In fact there is one mountain barangay beside the National Highway leading to Toledo proper that is named after Juan Faller Climaco, which is probably the site of his vast landholdings, now dispersed.

He was born in 1859 and died in 1907. If I'm not mistaken, in 1902 he became the second governor of Cebu, after Julio Llorente relinquished the post.

I believe @Pinoy_Ako, that your curiosity is borne out of the fact that you are related to the Climacos, di ba?

Here is some important loss: in 2004, the ancestral home of Gov. Arsenio Climaco, Juan's brother, burned down due perhaps to faulty wiring---and all the memorabilia in it was lost forever.

Sayang. Huhuhuhu.

Thanks archaeologue. Yes, I'm looking for the members of the Climacos in Metro Manila. In the vecindario that I'd already browsed through, some of the people disappear for some years then reappear in other years. I don't know if this is related to the Quinta or what. At the outset of the Philippine revolution, only the younger siblings are present in the Vecindario, listed under an unknown person, probably a guardian or a distant relative. There is an oral tradition in the family that two members went to the Visayas, but Juan and Arsenio or the name Faller is not present in the documents I looked into. Unfortunately, the town's church was burned during the Fil-American war. They say some of the canonical books of the matrix is in Texas.

Yes, its the one in the San Agustin museum. You want to ask the Agustinians why its in the museum? I'd like to know too. The Cebu archdiocese should ask for this now that we have a museum. But maybe the Agustinians have a proprietory stance about things brought by Magellan. . .

mam, i think the image deserves proper veneration rather than just be treated as an artifact or a museum piece. hahay.. hehe. if ang uban ang pasultihon, why clamour for its return when it is with the OSA still. :ohno:

Yes, its the one in the San Agustin museum. You want to ask the Agustinians why its in the museum? I'd like to know too. The Cebu archdiocese should ask for this now that we have a museum. But maybe the Agustinians have a proprietory stance about things brought by Magellan. . .

mam, i think the image deserves proper veneration rather than just be treated as an artifact or a museum piece. hahay.. hehe. if ang uban ang pasultihon, why clamour for its return when it is with the OSA still. :ohno:

Thanks archaeologue. Yes, I'm looking for the members of the Climacos in Metro Manila. In the vecindario that I'd already browsed through, some of the people disappear for some years then reappear in other years. I don't know if this is related to the Quinta or what. At the outset of the Philippine revolution, only the younger siblings are present in the Vecindario, listed under an unknown person, probably a guardian or a distant relative. There is an oral tradition in the family that two members went to the Visayas, but Juan and Arsenio or the name Faller is not present in the documents I looked into. Unfortunately, the town's church was burned during the Fil-American war. They say some of the canonical books of the matrix is in Texas.

Juan Cuico Climaco died in 1873. He was married to a Noel.

Thanks archaeologue. Yes, I'm looking for the members of the Climacos in Metro Manila. In the vecindario that I'd already browsed through, some of the people disappear for some years then reappear in other years. I don't know if this is related to the Quinta or what. At the outset of the Philippine revolution, only the younger siblings are present in the Vecindario, listed under an unknown person, probably a guardian or a distant relative. There is an oral tradition in the family that two members went to the Visayas, but Juan and Arsenio or the name Faller is not present in the documents I looked into. Unfortunately, the town's church was burned during the Fil-American war. They say some of the canonical books of the matrix is in Texas.

Juan Cuico Climaco died in 1873. He was married to a Noel.

Boy, I think I have Ceb 116 to Ceb 118. they are on display at Museo Sugbo. Bisita na didto oi.

Other than kanang mabasa nato sa mga libro bahin aning mga note. Ang naka interesado sa ako aning provincial issues, kaila man nako ang usa sa nag sign, si Simeon Miranda, siya sad nagkugos sa akoa sa bunyag. One time ako sad na sulti-an ang iyang anak na kato imong amahan either isog kaayo to siya o wa gyud to kasabot sa iyang gipirmahan. Tuslokon man ka sa bayoneta sa hapon kung makit-an ka magda unsa na kaha kung ikaw pa nag pirma. Another story is that coming from my 89 year old mother, my grandmother, her mother had a store. 3 kuno ka presyo ang palitunon niadto. Lain ang presyo sa pre war silver, lain para sa kwarta sa hapon, lain sad para sa mga guerilla. Ang first preference kadtong pre war silver coins, then either ang Japanese o ang guerilla notes. Hinonghungay sa before any deal is made kung unsa ang ipangbayad. Dawaton ang kwarta sa hapon kay masuko ang hapon kung dili. Dawaton sad ang guerilla kay basin toktokon ka inig gabii. Musamot kagubot labi na kung ang mopalit gamit ang kwarta sa Negros. Bisan pa para sa negros lang, pero mapugos ka ug dawat. Kinsa pa lang tong tawhana. Kanang sa bantayan para ra sad didto pero parejo sa negros dawaton gyud. Kadto sang dili nila preferred currency, mao sa'y i-unang gamiton pangbayad kung khinanglan na sad sila ug supplies para panenda.

Boy, I think I have Ceb 116 to Ceb 118. they are on display at Museo Sugbo. Bisita na didto oi.

Other than kanang mabasa nato sa mga libro bahin aning mga note. Ang naka interesado sa ako aning provincial issues, kaila man nako ang usa sa nag sign, si Simeon Miranda, siya sad nagkugos sa akoa sa bunyag. One time ako sad na sulti-an ang iyang anak na kato imong amahan either isog kaayo to siya o wa gyud to kasabot sa iyang gipirmahan. Tuslokon man ka sa bayoneta sa hapon kung makit-an ka magda unsa na kaha kung ikaw pa nag pirma. Another story is that coming from my 89 year old mother, my grandmother, her mother had a store. 3 kuno ka presyo ang palitunon niadto. Lain ang presyo sa pre war silver, lain para sa kwarta sa hapon, lain sad para sa mga guerilla. Ang first preference kadtong pre war silver coins, then either ang Japanese o ang guerilla notes. Hinonghungay sa before any deal is made kung unsa ang ipangbayad. Dawaton ang kwarta sa hapon kay masuko ang hapon kung dili. Dawaton sad ang guerilla kay basin toktokon ka inig gabii. Musamot kagubot labi na kung ang mopalit gamit ang kwarta sa Negros. Bisan pa para sa negros lang, pero mapugos ka ug dawat. Kinsa pa lang tong tawhana. Kanang sa bantayan para ra sad didto pero parejo sa negros dawaton gyud. Kadto sang dili nila preferred currency, mao sa'y i-unang gamiton pangbayad kung khinanglan na sad sila ug supplies para panenda.

dili ra man tingali ang grassroots ang kinahanglang nga i-edukar bahin sa heritage ... morag mas kinahanglanon pod i-edukar ang gobyerno ug ang simbahan kay sila ra bayay naay kwarta ug gahom aron pagguba, "pagpaanindot" kuno o pag-modernize sa mga heritage sites.

You are so right. Sometimes I wish the parishes will remain impoverished because the minute any one in the parish gets rich, he/she gives money to the parish priest to renovate the church. The priest is only too willing to and too eager to put a stamp of his stay in the parish - and woe to us all:ohno::nono: in the words of the great Joberz - PAET!!!!

dili ra man tingali ang grassroots ang kinahanglang nga i-edukar bahin sa heritage ... morag mas kinahanglanon pod i-edukar ang gobyerno ug ang simbahan kay sila ra bayay naay kwarta ug gahom aron pagguba, "pagpaanindot" kuno o pag-modernize sa mga heritage sites.

You are so right. Sometimes I wish the parishes will remain impoverished because the minute any one in the parish gets rich, he/she gives money to the parish priest to renovate the church. The priest is only too willing to and too eager to put a stamp of his stay in the parish - and woe to us all:ohno::nono: in the words of the great Joberz - PAET!!!!

I just wondered...why is Hamabar (Or Rajah Humabon) not in good terms with Pulaku (or Lapu Lapu)? Its so similar to what happened between Tommy and Teddy before, although neighbors but not in good terms....

I just wondered...why is Hamabar (Or Rajah Humabon) not in good terms with Pulaku (or Lapu Lapu)? Its so similar to what happened between Tommy and Teddy before, although neighbors but not in good terms....

I just wondered...why is Hamabar (Or Rajah Humabon) not in good terms with Pulaku (or Lapu Lapu)? Its so similar to what happened between Tommy and Teddy before, although neighbors but not in good terms....

Suya si Humabon, kay macho kaayo si Lapu-lapu...Heheheh...Joke lang.. :)

Family feud? Di ba paryentes man to sila?

I just wondered...why is Hamabar (Or Rajah Humabon) not in good terms with Pulaku (or Lapu Lapu)? Its so similar to what happened between Tommy and Teddy before, although neighbors but not in good terms....

Suya si Humabon, kay macho kaayo si Lapu-lapu...Heheheh...Joke lang.. :)

Family feud? Di ba paryentes man to sila?

You are so right. Sometimes I wish the parishes will remain impoverished because the minute any one in the parish gets rich, he/she gives money to the parish priest to renovate the church. The priest is only too willing to and too eager to put a stamp of his stay in the parish - and woe to us all:ohno::nono: in the words of the great Joberz - PAET!!!!


Great gyud na sya? hahah.

Mao ra jud ni ako ikabalik-balik og sulti:

As in the Swedish rock group ABBA:

"Money! Money! Money!
Always sunny, in a rich man's world"

heheh.

You are so right. Sometimes I wish the parishes will remain impoverished because the minute any one in the parish gets rich, he/she gives money to the parish priest to renovate the church. The priest is only too willing to and too eager to put a stamp of his stay in the parish - and woe to us all:ohno::nono: in the words of the great Joberz - PAET!!!!


Great gyud na sya? hahah.

Mao ra jud ni ako ikabalik-balik og sulti:

As in the Swedish rock group ABBA:

"Money! Money! Money!
Always sunny, in a rich man's world"

heheh.

Suya si Humabon, kay macho kaayo si Lapu-lapu...Heheheh...Joke lang.. :)

Family feud? Di ba paryentes man to sila?


The fight was most probably an issue of tribute collection from passing trading boats.

There are two channels in which one can enter the "great" trading port called Sugbu: through the narrow channel beween Mandaue and Opon coming from the north, or through the strait between Olango and Punta Engano

Remember, Legazpi was even asked by Tupas to render tribute.

Legazpi's reply? "Bombahan hinuon tamo tana, wipe out gyud mo!"

Tupas' rejoinder?: "Sige suwayi lang hahaha"...and the rest is history---well, most unfortunate for us, a history written by the victors.

mao pod na nga maglibog na ta unsa gyud to ang away nilang Lapulapu ug Humabon.

but, to use the allegory ni HabagataCentral, basin like tommy and teddy nga nag-away over the overpriced lampposts, basin nagsuyaay to sila kinsay mas lami ug sulo? hahahahaah!

:bash:

Suya si Humabon, kay macho kaayo si Lapu-lapu...Heheheh...Joke lang.. :)

Family feud? Di ba paryentes man to sila?


The fight was most probably an issue of tribute collection from passing trading boats.

There are two channels in which one can enter the "great" trading port called Sugbu: through the narrow channel beween Mandaue and Opon coming from the north, or through the strait between Olango and Punta Engano

Remember, Legazpi was even asked by Tupas to render tribute.

Legazpi's reply? "Bombahan hinuon tamo tana, wipe out gyud mo!"

Tupas' rejoinder?: "Sige suwayi lang hahaha"...and the rest is history---well, most unfortunate for us, a history written by the victors.

mao pod na nga maglibog na ta unsa gyud to ang away nilang Lapulapu ug Humabon.

but, to use the allegory ni HabagataCentral, basin like tommy and teddy nga nag-away over the overpriced lampposts, basin nagsuyaay to sila kinsay mas lami ug sulo? hahahahaah!

:bash:

basin nakat-unan ni nilang tribute collection gikan sa mga intsik ...

basin nakat-unan ni nilang tribute collection gikan sa mga intsik ...

^^ This is what I love about history...morag the latest buzz sa The Buzz og ANC, hehe! :D

Anyway, I think that's about it. I don't think Gaspar de San Agustin mentioned the reason why Humabon was not in good terms with Lapu Lapu and so was Magellan's chronicler. Perhaps we can only theorize, but for the same reason as the allegory...it will all boil down to one thing...politics, hehe!

Maayad nga gab-i sa inyo tanan kag maduro gid nga salamat! :wave:

^^ This is what I love about history...morag the latest buzz sa The Buzz og ANC, hehe! :D

Anyway, I think that's about it. I don't think Gaspar de San Agustin mentioned the reason why Humabon was not in good terms with Lapu Lapu and so was Magellan's chronicler. Perhaps we can only theorize, but for the same reason as the allegory...it will all boil down to one thing...politics, hehe!

Maayad nga gab-i sa inyo tanan kag maduro gid nga salamat! :wave:

a history written by the victors.



makes me wonder...what if remaining with the spanish was a better option than independence...

a history written by the victors.



makes me wonder...what if remaining with the spanish was a better option than independence...

makes me wonder...what if remaining with the spanish was a better option than independence...

Then we wouldn't have this cyber-conversation at all. Judging by the number of educated (meaning schooled) people during the over three hundred years the Spanish stayed in the Philippines, only a fraction of the Filipinos would be educated until now.

The Americans started their stay with a massive move to educate us, no wonder we Filipinos "fell" under their charms. Never mind that their reasons were not truly altruistic as they would want the world to believe, but educate us they did.

Spain is a romantic idea, imagine speaking the lovely Spanish language and eating paella with a glass of vino rojo all the time. But we would still look awkward doing that with our distinctively brown skin and oriental features. Juan Luna painted himself looking almost Spanish - in his dreams!

Forgive me for seemingly digressing, but that's all it amounts to - the thought of not seeking independence!

makes me wonder...what if remaining with the spanish was a better option than independence...

Then we wouldn't have this cyber-conversation at all. Judging by the number of educated (meaning schooled) people during the over three hundred years the Spanish stayed in the Philippines, only a fraction of the Filipinos would be educated until now.

The Americans started their stay with a massive move to educate us, no wonder we Filipinos "fell" under their charms. Never mind that their reasons were not truly altruistic as they would want the world to believe, but educate us they did.

Spain is a romantic idea, imagine speaking the lovely Spanish language and eating paella with a glass of vino rojo all the time. But we would still look awkward doing that with our distinctively brown skin and oriental features. Juan Luna painted himself looking almost Spanish - in his dreams!

Forgive me for seemingly digressing, but that's all it amounts to - the thought of not seeking independence!

^^^^

Hahah. I say amen to that, Ang Karaang Tawo.

How dreadful to think that we are perhaps better off without independence.

:nuts:

^^^^

Hahah. I say amen to that, Ang Karaang Tawo.

How dreadful to think that we are perhaps better off without independence.

:nuts:

basin nakat-unan ni nilang tribute collection gikan sa mga intsik ...

Hooy padz intsik akong mama :) (joke lang) Mongrel man ko :)

basin nakat-unan ni nilang tribute collection gikan sa mga intsik ...

Hooy padz intsik akong mama :) (joke lang) Mongrel man ko :)

Hooy padz intsik akong mama :) (joke lang) Mongrel man ko :)

no offense to the chinese ... but giving tribute was an official policy of the chinese imperial government ... chinese records show that butuan, manila, mindoro and sulu sent missions to china to give their tribute to the chinese emperor. but i could not find any mention of cebu sending mission to china. one possibility is that the rajah of cebu was not rich enough to finance a round trip to china.

further, it is possible that those chinese who came to cebu during the ming period were actually smugglers from fujian province. the ming government initially prohibited private trade. no chinese were allowed to engaged in foreign trade. goods were only brought to china by tributary states. to cope with the demands in china, some chinese businessmen started to smuggle goods to china.

interesting kaayo ni. gamay pa kaayo ang nagtoon ani. ingon akong propesor nga posible kaning mga insik nga taga fujien adunay well-organized network sa tibook southeast asia. mangukay usa ko sa chinese records

Hooy padz intsik akong mama :) (joke lang) Mongrel man ko :)

no offense to the chinese ... but giving tribute was an official policy of the chinese imperial government ... chinese records show that butuan, manila, mindoro and sulu sent missions to china to give their tribute to the chinese emperor. but i could not find any mention of cebu sending mission to china. one possibility is that the rajah of cebu was not rich enough to finance a round trip to china.

further, it is possible that those chinese who came to cebu during the ming period were actually smugglers from fujian province. the ming government initially prohibited private trade. no chinese were allowed to engaged in foreign trade. goods were only brought to china by tributary states. to cope with the demands in china, some chinese businessmen started to smuggle goods to china.

interesting kaayo ni. gamay pa kaayo ang nagtoon ani. ingon akong propesor nga posible kaning mga insik nga taga fujien adunay well-organized network sa tibook southeast asia. mangukay usa ko sa chinese records

no offense to the chinese ... but giving tribute was an official policy of the chinese imperial government ... chinese records show that butuan, manila, mindoro and sulu sent missions to china to give their tribute to the chinese emperor. but i could not find any mention of cebu sending mission to china. one possibility is that the rajah of cebu was not rich enough to finance a round trip to china.

further, it is possible that those chinese who came to cebu during the ming period were actually smugglers from fujian province. the ming government initially prohibited private trade. no chinese were allowed to engaged in foreign trade. goods were only brought to china by tributary states. to cope with the demands in china, some chinese businessmen started to smuggle goods to china.

interesting kaayo ni. gamay pa kaayo ang nagtoon ani. ingon akong propesor nga posible kaning mga insik nga taga fujien adunay well-organized network sa tibook southeast asia. mangukay usa ko sa chinese records

re "no offense to the chinese ..." no offense taken, my comment was meant to be a humor.

sory medyo kuwang lang siguro akong reference books, so TV lang akong i-cite :) Mga 2nd o 3rd quarter last year naa man to'y feature sa national geographic channel parte ani. Ang focus lang noon adto katong barko sa intsik nalunod sa may palawan during pre hispanic time. Pero gi trace sa mapa to nila diin ang agi-anan sa mga chinese smugglers dinhi sa ato-a.

"nga posible kaning mga insik nga taga fujien adunay well-organized network sa tibook southeast asia" If I remember it right, ang smuggling network nalakbitan ni ug explicar sad didto sa same feature.

no offense to the chinese ... but giving tribute was an official policy of the chinese imperial government ... chinese records show that butuan, manila, mindoro and sulu sent missions to china to give their tribute to the chinese emperor. but i could not find any mention of cebu sending mission to china. one possibility is that the rajah of cebu was not rich enough to finance a round trip to china.

further, it is possible that those chinese who came to cebu during the ming period were actually smugglers from fujian province. the ming government initially prohibited private trade. no chinese were allowed to engaged in foreign trade. goods were only brought to china by tributary states. to cope with the demands in china, some chinese businessmen started to smuggle goods to china.

interesting kaayo ni. gamay pa kaayo ang nagtoon ani. ingon akong propesor nga posible kaning mga insik nga taga fujien adunay well-organized network sa tibook southeast asia. mangukay usa ko sa chinese records

re "no offense to the chinese ..." no offense taken, my comment was meant to be a humor.

sory medyo kuwang lang siguro akong reference books, so TV lang akong i-cite :) Mga 2nd o 3rd quarter last year naa man to'y feature sa national geographic channel parte ani. Ang focus lang noon adto katong barko sa intsik nalunod sa may palawan during pre hispanic time. Pero gi trace sa mapa to nila diin ang agi-anan sa mga chinese smugglers dinhi sa ato-a.

"nga posible kaning mga insik nga taga fujien adunay well-organized network sa tibook southeast asia" If I remember it right, ang smuggling network nalakbitan ni ug explicar sad didto sa same feature.

Now where is the English thread? :ohno:
Will someone be kind enough to elucidate me? If my hunches are right...

All it takes is one non-Visayan Fil-Am who runs amuck in 2 threads like a raging bull in a china shop and entire threads are locked up?
Coz the heck it doesn’t make sense to me at all.

Like, this guy cannot just keep his trap shut. We never hear the end of it. Since my sabbatical 5 months ago til my return he has not stopped his mile long rants on the very same issues. Oh Gee Golly, is it more economical to have 2 entire threads locked up or just brigg the guy, yeah? We do know he has already been banned once. These lines are clearly amiss somewhere.

But hey, if the main objective was really to lock up the Visayan threads, well then fine, mission accomplished. Why does the good of one far outweigh the good of the many?

En Fin. Que locura. Son mis sentimientos.

Get a life! I dunno bout the rest of you but hey, like, I fully enjoy my life outside the Net. :tongue:

:goodnight

Now where is the English thread? :ohno:
Will someone be kind enough to elucidate me? If my hunches are right...

All it takes is one non-Visayan Fil-Am who runs amuck in 2 threads like a raging bull in a china shop and entire threads are locked up?
Coz the heck it doesn’t make sense to me at all.

Like, this guy cannot just keep his trap shut. We never hear the end of it. Since my sabbatical 5 months ago til my return he has not stopped his mile long rants on the very same issues. Oh Gee Golly, is it more economical to have 2 entire threads locked up or just brigg the guy, yeah? We do know he has already been banned once. These lines are clearly amiss somewhere.

But hey, if the main objective was really to lock up the Visayan threads, well then fine, mission accomplished. Why does the good of one far outweigh the good of the many?

En Fin. Que locura. Son mis sentimientos.

Get a life! I dunno bout the rest of you but hey, like, I fully enjoy my life outside the Net. :tongue:

:goodnight

English thread is just there sir!! It was just burried under because it got quiet on it's own...

Cebuano thread was just temporarily locked like last time, first time it was locked there was someone else who is not a bisaya as well jumped in, i wasnt there then at time I was absent as well, if that's what you were thinking... That portion of that convo was cleaned by the moderators so you probably can't see it now.

English thread is just there sir!! It was just burried under because it got quiet on it's own...

Cebuano thread was just temporarily locked like last time, first time it was locked there was someone else who is not a bisaya as well jumped in, i wasnt there then at time I was absent as well, if that's what you were thinking... That portion of that convo was cleaned by the moderators so you probably can't see it now.

Juan Cuico Climaco died in 1873. He was married to a Noel.

Thanks Gee.

You are so right. Sometimes I wish the parishes will remain impoverished because the minute any one in the parish gets rich, he/she gives money to the parish priest to renovate the church. The priest is only too willing to and too eager to put a stamp of his stay in the parish - and woe to us all:ohno::nono: in the words of the great Joberz - PAET!!!!

The Spanish colonial parish churches were formerly state edifice, funded and constructed at the State's expense, since the Spanish monarch was patron of the church ( Spain and its dominion ). I wonder if the government, as heir of the Spanish state in the Philippines, could have leverage in the modification, repair and restoration by virtue of this association

Juan Cuico Climaco died in 1873. He was married to a Noel.

Thanks Gee.

You are so right. Sometimes I wish the parishes will remain impoverished because the minute any one in the parish gets rich, he/she gives money to the parish priest to renovate the church. The priest is only too willing to and too eager to put a stamp of his stay in the parish - and woe to us all:ohno::nono: in the words of the great Joberz - PAET!!!!

The Spanish colonial parish churches were formerly state edifice, funded and constructed at the State's expense, since the Spanish monarch was patron of the church ( Spain and its dominion ). I wonder if the government, as heir of the Spanish state in the Philippines, could have leverage in the modification, repair and restoration by virtue of this association

no offense to the chinese ... but giving tribute was an official policy of the chinese imperial government ... chinese records show that butuan, manila, mindoro and sulu sent missions to china to give their tribute to the chinese emperor. but i could not find any mention of cebu sending mission to china. one possibility is that the rajah of cebu was not rich enough to finance a round trip to china.




@Gee, perhaps it is wrong to assume that we learn tribute collecting from the Chinese.

you see, demanding tribute is a form of taxation, a toll fee collection, if you may. and everyone did it because of the concept of territoriality.

IMO it is a diffusionist conception to suggest that we learned this from, say, the Chinese.

I would rather venture that this came about as a result of the natural logic of the bartering and exchange of goods which was going on between lowlanders and highlanders way before foreign trading began---salt being an important value to exchange for honey from the forested highlands

such bartering emerged because of the need for things that are otherwise not found in one's domain.

Thus, every coastal 'balangay' would want to claim the seas, for example, as their own for as long as they can defend and watch over it because it provided them resources for which to trade. And anyone who attempts to extract from this resource who is not a kin or a member of the extended kin group will surely be turned away or asked to exchange this for something in return...or worse, killed for the transgression.

this concept of exchange, though primitive and wasteful in form, created the concept of value over things that eventually gave rise to capitalism.

so i do not think we needed the chinese to tell us about territorial integrity and control. in fact we find weapons in the archaeological record on sites and burials prior to the age of foreign trading, suggesting that defense or systems of guarding oneself and, by extension, one's territory are quite ancient.

:)

no offense to the chinese ... but giving tribute was an official policy of the chinese imperial government ... chinese records show that butuan, manila, mindoro and sulu sent missions to china to give their tribute to the chinese emperor. but i could not find any mention of cebu sending mission to china. one possibility is that the rajah of cebu was not rich enough to finance a round trip to china.




@Gee, perhaps it is wrong to assume that we learn tribute collecting from the Chinese.

you see, demanding tribute is a form of taxation, a toll fee collection, if you may. and everyone did it because of the concept of territoriality.

IMO it is a diffusionist conception to suggest that we learned this from, say, the Chinese.

I would rather venture that this came about as a result of the natural logic of the bartering and exchange of goods which was going on between lowlanders and highlanders way before foreign trading began---salt being an important value to exchange for honey from the forested highlands

such bartering emerged because of the need for things that are otherwise not found in one's domain.

Thus, every coastal 'balangay' would want to claim the seas, for example, as their own for as long as they can defend and watch over it because it provided them resources for which to trade. And anyone who attempts to extract from this resource who is not a kin or a member of the extended kin group will surely be turned away or asked to exchange this for something in return...or worse, killed for the transgression.

this concept of exchange, though primitive and wasteful in form, created the concept of value over things that eventually gave rise to capitalism.

so i do not think we needed the chinese to tell us about territorial integrity and control. in fact we find weapons in the archaeological record on sites and burials prior to the age of foreign trading, suggesting that defense or systems of guarding oneself and, by extension, one's territory are quite ancient.

:)

@Gee, perhaps it is wrong to assume that we learn tribute collecting from the Chinese.

you see, demanding tribute is a form of taxation, a toll fee collection, if you may. and everyone did it because of the concept of territoriality.

IMO it is a diffusionist conception to suggest that we learned this from, say, the Chinese.

I would rather venture that this came about as a result of the natural logic of the bartering and exchange of goods which was going on between lowlanders and highlanders way before foreign trading began---salt being an important value to exchange for honey from the forested highlands

such bartering emerged because of the need for things that are otherwise not found in one's domain.

Thus, every coastal 'balangay' would want to claim the seas, for example, as their own for as long as they can defend and watch over it because it provided them resources for which to trade. And anyone who attempts to extract from this resource who is not a kin or a member of the extended kin group will surely be turned away or asked to exchange this for something in return...or worse, killed for the transgression.

this concept of exchange, though primitive and wasteful in form, created the concept of value over things that eventually gave rise to capitalism.

so i do not think we needed the chinese to tell us about territorial integrity and control. in fact we find weapons in the archaeological record on sites and burials prior to the age of foreign trading, suggesting that defense or systems of guarding oneself and, by extension, one's territory are quite ancient.

:)

@archaeologue, daghang salamat sa pagpasabot. kini nga "subject" maayo gayud kining tukion sa mga anthropologists ug historians, aron pod nato masabtan ang pag-abiabi ni humabon sa mga bisita nga puti. basin nagtuo to si humabon no nga part ra to sa tribute ang image ni sto. nino. :nuts:

@Gee, perhaps it is wrong to assume that we learn tribute collecting from the Chinese.

you see, demanding tribute is a form of taxation, a toll fee collection, if you may. and everyone did it because of the concept of territoriality.

IMO it is a diffusionist conception to suggest that we learned this from, say, the Chinese.

I would rather venture that this came about as a result of the natural logic of the bartering and exchange of goods which was going on between lowlanders and highlanders way before foreign trading began---salt being an important value to exchange for honey from the forested highlands

such bartering emerged because of the need for things that are otherwise not found in one's domain.

Thus, every coastal 'balangay' would want to claim the seas, for example, as their own for as long as they can defend and watch over it because it provided them resources for which to trade. And anyone who attempts to extract from this resource who is not a kin or a member of the extended kin group will surely be turned away or asked to exchange this for something in return...or worse, killed for the transgression.

this concept of exchange, though primitive and wasteful in form, created the concept of value over things that eventually gave rise to capitalism.

so i do not think we needed the chinese to tell us about territorial integrity and control. in fact we find weapons in the archaeological record on sites and burials prior to the age of foreign trading, suggesting that defense or systems of guarding oneself and, by extension, one's territory are quite ancient.

:)

@archaeologue, daghang salamat sa pagpasabot. kini nga "subject" maayo gayud kining tukion sa mga anthropologists ug historians, aron pod nato masabtan ang pag-abiabi ni humabon sa mga bisita nga puti. basin nagtuo to si humabon no nga part ra to sa tribute ang image ni sto. nino. :nuts:

uhm, question. is there any cebuano counterpart of Balangay? I think its too "tagalog" IMO.

uhm, question. is there any cebuano counterpart of Balangay? I think its too "tagalog" IMO.

^^^^ Barrio.

balangay / barangay in its correct usage is a boat... a long Malay boat... now how it became a community of land based houses is beyond me.

In the old days they would use terms like Barrio Tipolo, Mandaue City, Barrio Paknaan, Mandaue City, Barrio Maguicay, Mandaue City, etc etc... :lol:

^^^^ Barrio.

balangay / barangay in its correct usage is a boat... a long Malay boat... now how it became a community of land based houses is beyond me.

In the old days they would use terms like Barrio Tipolo, Mandaue City, Barrio Paknaan, Mandaue City, Barrio Maguicay, Mandaue City, etc etc... :lol:

^^

also very spanish! hahahaha....:okay:

^^

also very spanish! hahahaha....:okay:

^^^^ Barrio.

balangay / barangay in its correct usage is a boat... a long Malay boat... now how it became a community of land based houses is beyond me.




i think this is incorrect. but then again i'm just thinking from memory. the caracoas where the equivalents of what would later in the spanish period be called "barangayanes", di ba?

the concept of "barangay" to mean a boat comes from the fake Marco story of the 10 datus on board barangays, di ba?

i would venture to say, in fact, that the word barangay as boat and as a group of families may be contemporanous, given that many, many communities in the pre-hispanic and even to the hispanic period considered boats as their houses.

also, the word barangay appears quite close to the word "banay" which refers to a kin group or a group of interrrelated kins as in "kabanay", meaning one who belongs to your kin group.

^^^^ Barrio.

balangay / barangay in its correct usage is a boat... a long Malay boat... now how it became a community of land based houses is beyond me.




i think this is incorrect. but then again i'm just thinking from memory. the caracoas where the equivalents of what would later in the spanish period be called "barangayanes", di ba?

the concept of "barangay" to mean a boat comes from the fake Marco story of the 10 datus on board barangays, di ba?

i would venture to say, in fact, that the word barangay as boat and as a group of families may be contemporanous, given that many, many communities in the pre-hispanic and even to the hispanic period considered boats as their houses.

also, the word barangay appears quite close to the word "banay" which refers to a kin group or a group of interrrelated kins as in "kabanay", meaning one who belongs to your kin group.

^^

so if I were to base your explanation about the origins of our "barangay" it would have been called "kabanay" and not barangay because IMO, barangay/balangay is too tagalog... :okay:

^^

so if I were to base your explanation about the origins of our "barangay" it would have been called "kabanay" and not barangay because IMO, barangay/balangay is too tagalog... :okay:

^^

so if I were to base your explanation about the origins of our "barangay" it would have been called "kabanay" and not barangay because IMO, barangay/balangay is too tagalog... :okay:


i think so. the early spanish chroniclers will have to be consulted. let me check the Alcina volumes on this one. if tagalog ang word nga "Barangay", then the Spanish may have used the Tagal equivalents early on in their rewording of their world here in the Philippines.

^^

so if I were to base your explanation about the origins of our "barangay" it would have been called "kabanay" and not barangay because IMO, barangay/balangay is too tagalog... :okay:


i think so. the early spanish chroniclers will have to be consulted. let me check the Alcina volumes on this one. if tagalog ang word nga "Barangay", then the Spanish may have used the Tagal equivalents early on in their rewording of their world here in the Philippines.

^^

Based on the Kobak and Gutierrez translation of Alcina's Historia de las Islas e Indios de Bisayas, Vol. III, the word Barangay refers in fact to the boat. And because this is the word used, I guess this is not Tagalog.

Read page 200 of Vol III:

"Barangay llaman a la que va creciendo ya en tamano y talle y estas embarcaciones, llamadas asi, son las mas ligera qu se usaban, y usan, por aca entre estos naturales."

translated, it reads:

"Barangay is what they call the next larger in size and proportion. The vessles bearing this name are the lightest that were used and are still being utilized by the natives here." (p.201).

strangely, though, on page 477, the word Barangay is used by Alcina also to refer to a community but he does not explain the difference.

and more importantly on page 522, the footnotes, this line is prominent on top:

"Barangay is an anicent Bisayan term borrowed by the Tagalogs and used by them." (Dela Rosa-Alcazar [1914], op. cit., p. 37)....

hayyy, what owuld life be without Ignacio Alcina.

no time to check the title of this book by Dela Rosa -Alcazar. but i hope this helps.

got to go.

^^

Based on the Kobak and Gutierrez translation of Alcina's Historia de las Islas e Indios de Bisayas, Vol. III, the word Barangay refers in fact to the boat. And because this is the word used, I guess this is not Tagalog.

Read page 200 of Vol III:

"Barangay llaman a la que va creciendo ya en tamano y talle y estas embarcaciones, llamadas asi, son las mas ligera qu se usaban, y usan, por aca entre estos naturales."

translated, it reads:

"Barangay is what they call the next larger in size and proportion. The vessles bearing this name are the lightest that were used and are still being utilized by the natives here." (p.201).

strangely, though, on page 477, the word Barangay is used by Alcina also to refer to a community but he does not explain the difference.

and more importantly on page 522, the footnotes, this line is prominent on top:

"Barangay is an anicent Bisayan term borrowed by the Tagalogs and used by them." (Dela Rosa-Alcazar [1914], op. cit., p. 37)....

hayyy, what owuld life be without Ignacio Alcina.

no time to check the title of this book by Dela Rosa -Alcazar. but i hope this helps.

got to go.

Lain pay ato, gisira na pud ang Cebuano Language Thread. Ngano mga Tagawg pwede moapil sa atong pagtuki sa atong pinulongan unya wala man gyuy bisan usa nato nisulod sa ilang hilo? Pirme na lang gyud masira ang Cebuano Language Thread.

Lain pay ato, gisira na pud ang Cebuano Language Thread. Ngano mga Tagawg pwede moapil sa atong pagtuki sa atong pinulongan unya wala man gyuy bisan usa nato nisulod sa ilang hilo? Pirme na lang gyud masira ang Cebuano Language Thread.

Lain pay ato, gisira na pud ang Cebuano Language Thread. Ngano mga Tagawg pwede moapil sa atong pagtuki sa atong pinulongan unya wala man gyuy bisan usa nato nisulod sa ilang hilo? Pirme na lang gyud masira ang Cebuano Language Thread.

Why man, Triz? Init kaayo ang paglantugi sa mga tawo ana nga thread? Masirdao gud. Laag una ko. Balik lang ko unya hahaah.

Lain pay ato, gisira na pud ang Cebuano Language Thread. Ngano mga Tagawg pwede moapil sa atong pagtuki sa atong pinulongan unya wala man gyuy bisan usa nato nisulod sa ilang hilo? Pirme na lang gyud masira ang Cebuano Language Thread.

Why man, Triz? Init kaayo ang paglantugi sa mga tawo ana nga thread? Masirdao gud. Laag una ko. Balik lang ko unya hahaah.

Gisira na pud kay naa na puy wala kauyon.. basta lagi mapildis lalis.
Kamabawg mga kibot!

นางสดศรี สัตยธรรม กกต.กล่าวเมื่อวันที่ 31 มกราคม ว่า คณะกรรมการการเลือกตั้ง (กกต.) เคยมีมติให้ดำเนินคดีอาญากับนายบุญจง วงศ์ไตรรัตน์ รัฐมนตรีช่วยว่าการกระทรวงมหาดไทย จริง ซึ่งตามขั้นตอนแล้ว เมื่อ กกต.มีมติให้ดำเนินคดีอาญา สำนักวินิจฉัยและคดี ของ กกต.จะต้องจัดทำความเห็นและร่างคำวินิจฉัย เพื่อส่งไปยัง กกต.จว. อย่างไรก็ตาม ขณะนี้ไม่ทราบว่าเรื่องของนายบุญจงไปถึงไหนแล้ว เพราะ กกต.มีหน้าที่เพียงวินิจฉัยเท่านั้น ส่วนงานด้านธุรการจะเป็นทางสำนักวินิจฉัยและคดีเป็นผู้รับผิดชอบ เพราะจะให้ กกต.ไปนั่งดูแลทั้งหมดคงไม่ได้ แต่ถ้าดูจากกรอบระยะเวลาเรื่องน่าจะอยู่ที่ กกต.จว.แล้ว ส่วนการที่ กกต.ไม่ได้แจกใบแดง (เพิกถอนสิทธิเลือกตั้ง) ให้กับนายบุญจงนั้น เพราะพยานหลักฐานการสืบสวนไปไม่ถึง จึงเอาผิดได้เพียงให้ดำเนินคดีอาญา

Gisira na pud kay naa na puy wala kauyon.. basta lagi mapildis lalis.
Kamabawg mga kibot!

นางสดศรี สัตยธรรม กกต.กล่าวเมื่อวันที่ 31 มกราคม ว่า คณะกรรมการการเลือกตั้ง (กกต.) เคยมีมติให้ดำเนินคดีอาญากับนายบุญจง วงศ์ไตรรัตน์ รัฐมนตรีช่วยว่าการกระทรวงมหาดไทย จริง ซึ่งตามขั้นตอนแล้ว เมื่อ กกต.มีมติให้ดำเนินคดีอาญา สำนักวินิจฉัยและคดี ของ กกต.จะต้องจัดทำความเห็นและร่างคำวินิจฉัย เพื่อส่งไปยัง กกต.จว. อย่างไรก็ตาม ขณะนี้ไม่ทราบว่าเรื่องของนายบุญจงไปถึงไหนแล้ว เพราะ กกต.มีหน้าที่เพียงวินิจฉัยเท่านั้น ส่วนงานด้านธุรการจะเป็นทางสำนักวินิจฉัยและคดีเป็นผู้รับผิดชอบ เพราะจะให้ กกต.ไปนั่งดูแลทั้งหมดคงไม่ได้ แต่ถ้าดูจากกรอบระยะเวลาเรื่องน่าจะอยู่ที่ กกต.จว.แล้ว ส่วนการที่ กกต.ไม่ได้แจกใบแดง (เพิกถอนสิทธิเลือกตั้ง) ให้กับนายบุญจงนั้น เพราะพยานหลักฐานการสืบสวนไปไม่ถึง จึงเอาผิดได้เพียงให้ดำเนินคดีอาญา

^^ basaha na lang tong akong awahing gui-post sa taas, bai. :lol: sigue lang kay muihupay na man ko humana ko pangadye didto sa Santos thread.


@ archaeologue

There you go, the word vessel in English = large watercraft (noun), among other things.

The word embarcacion in Spanish = barco, boat, craft, vessel

So I do not understand the logic of "nationalists" twisting the name of the Malay boat word Barangay / Balangay and voila! It becomes a village. Really, it is mind boggling... :lol:

^^ basaha na lang tong akong awahing gui-post sa taas, bai. :lol: sigue lang kay muihupay na man ko humana ko pangadye didto sa Santos thread.


@ archaeologue

There you go, the word vessel in English = large watercraft (noun), among other things.

The word embarcacion in Spanish = barco, boat, craft, vessel

So I do not understand the logic of "nationalists" twisting the name of the Malay boat word Barangay / Balangay and voila! It becomes a village. Really, it is mind boggling... :lol:

^^ basaha na lang tong akong awahing gui-post sa taas, bai. :lol: sigue lang kay muihupay na man ko humana ko pangadye didto sa Santos thread.

@Mercato, i-apil tawn mi'g ampo -- kaming mga makasasala. :banana::banana::banana:

Hinaut na lang nga sa langub nga among gipuy-an
imo kaming matabangan
kay pwerteng ngioba didto :nuts:

^^ basaha na lang tong akong awahing gui-post sa taas, bai. :lol: sigue lang kay muihupay na man ko humana ko pangadye didto sa Santos thread.

@Mercato, i-apil tawn mi'g ampo -- kaming mga makasasala. :banana::banana::banana:

Hinaut na lang nga sa langub nga among gipuy-an
imo kaming matabangan
kay pwerteng ngioba didto :nuts:

But hey, if the main objective was really to lock up the Visayan threads, well then fine, mission accomplished. Why does the good of one far outweigh the good of the many?

Get a life! I dunno bout the rest of you but hey, like, I fully enjoy my life outside the Net. :tongue:

:goodnightI don't quite understand what you're trying to point out. As far as I am concerned, what I did in the Cebuano thread was just plain SOP here. The heated arguments on that thread obviously got out of hand. And when things like that happen, we immediately close the threads and edit them as fast as we could. Aside from that, I believe I've given enough warnings not only now but also several times in that past.

Now, if you truly enjoy your life outside the net, I don't think you really have to brag it here. Oh well, I guess I don't have to mind that one too. ;)

English thread is just there sir!! It was just burried under because it got quiet on it's own...

Cebuano thread was just temporarily locked like last time, first time it was locked there was someone else who is not a bisaya as well jumped in, i wasnt there then at time I was absent as well, if that's what you were thinking... That portion of that convo was cleaned by the moderators so you probably can't see it now.Thanks for the clarification. :okay:

Lain pay ato, gisira na pud ang Cebuano Language Thread. Ngano mga Tagawg pwede moapil sa atong pagtuki sa atong pinulongan unya wala man gyuy bisan usa nato nisulod sa ilang hilo? Pirme na lang gyud masira ang Cebuano Language Thread.

Gisira na pud kay naa na puy wala kauyon.. basta lagi mapildis lalis.
Kamabawg mga kibot!
นางสดศรี สัตยธรรม กกต.กล่าวเมื่อวันที่ 31 มกราคม ว่า คณะกรรมการการเลือกตั้ง (กกต.) เคยมีมติให้ดำเนินคดีอาญากับนายบุญจง วงศ์ไตรรัตน์ รัฐมนตรีช่วยว่าการกระทรวงมหาดไทย จริง ซึ่งตามขั้นตอนแล้ว เมื่อ กกต.มีมติให้ดำเนินคดีอาญา สำนักวินิจฉัยและคดี ของ กกต.จะต้องจัดทำความเห็นและร่างคำวินิจฉัย เพื่อส่งไปยัง กกต.จว. อย่างไรก็ตาม ขณะนี้ไม่ทราบว่าเรื่องของนายบุญจงไปถึงไหนแล้ว เพราะ กกต.มีหน้าที่เพียงวินิจฉัยเท่านั้น ส่วนงานด้านธุรการจะเป็นทางสำนักวินิจฉัยและคดีเป็นผู้รับผิดชอบ เพราะจะให้ กกต.ไปนั่งดูแลทั้งหมดคงไม่ได้ แต่ถ้าดูจากกรอบระยะเวลาเรื่องน่าจะอยู่ที่ กกต.จว.แล้ว ส่วนการที่ กกต.ไม่ได้แจกใบแดง (เพิกถอนสิทธิเลือกตั้ง) ให้กับนายบุญจงนั้น เพราะพยานหลักฐานการสืบสวนไปไม่ถึง จึงเอาผิดได้เพียงให้ดำเนินคดีอาญา

@Mercato, i-apil tawn mi'g ampo -- kaming mga makasasala. :banana::banana::banana:

Hinaut na lang nga sa langub nga among gipuy-an
imo kaming matabangan
kay pwerteng ngioba didto :nuts:With all due respect sir, I and the rest of the mod team have given enough instructions before to use English or at least, Filipino in this part of the forums. This thread and the rest of the threads under Photography, Heritage and Architecture thread are already considered part of the international forums and are subject to this language policy. This policy has been agreed upon for more than 3 years now. I hope we would be more considerate about the other forumers who visit this part of the forums.

Threads under the regional forums are the only place where we allow people to use their local/vernacular language.

You know how to use Thai, so I think it wouldn't be that much of a problem if you would use English too.

Thank you.

But hey, if the main objective was really to lock up the Visayan threads, well then fine, mission accomplished. Why does the good of one far outweigh the good of the many?

Get a life! I dunno bout the rest of you but hey, like, I fully enjoy my life outside the Net. :tongue:

:goodnightI don't quite understand what you're trying to point out. As far as I am concerned, what I did in the Cebuano thread was just plain SOP here. The heated arguments on that thread obviously got out of hand. And when things like that happen, we immediately close the threads and edit them as fast as we could. Aside from that, I believe I've given enough warnings not only now but also several times in that past.

Now, if you truly enjoy your life outside the net, I don't think you really have to brag it here. Oh well, I guess I don't have to mind that one too. ;)

English thread is just there sir!! It was just burried under because it got quiet on it's own...

Cebuano thread was just temporarily locked like last time, first time it was locked there was someone else who is not a bisaya as well jumped in, i wasnt there then at time I was absent as well, if that's what you were thinking... That portion of that convo was cleaned by the moderators so you probably can't see it now.Thanks for the clarification. :okay:

Lain pay ato, gisira na pud ang Cebuano Language Thread. Ngano mga Tagawg pwede moapil sa atong pagtuki sa atong pinulongan unya wala man gyuy bisan usa nato nisulod sa ilang hilo? Pirme na lang gyud masira ang Cebuano Language Thread.

Gisira na pud kay naa na puy wala kauyon.. basta lagi mapildis lalis.
Kamabawg mga kibot!
นางสดศรี สัตยธรรม กกต.กล่าวเมื่อวันที่ 31 มกราคม ว่า คณะกรรมการการเลือกตั้ง (กกต.) เคยมีมติให้ดำเนินคดีอาญากับนายบุญจง วงศ์ไตรรัตน์ รัฐมนตรีช่วยว่าการกระทรวงมหาดไทย จริง ซึ่งตามขั้นตอนแล้ว เมื่อ กกต.มีมติให้ดำเนินคดีอาญา สำนักวินิจฉัยและคดี ของ กกต.จะต้องจัดทำความเห็นและร่างคำวินิจฉัย เพื่อส่งไปยัง กกต.จว. อย่างไรก็ตาม ขณะนี้ไม่ทราบว่าเรื่องของนายบุญจงไปถึงไหนแล้ว เพราะ กกต.มีหน้าที่เพียงวินิจฉัยเท่านั้น ส่วนงานด้านธุรการจะเป็นทางสำนักวินิจฉัยและคดีเป็นผู้รับผิดชอบ เพราะจะให้ กกต.ไปนั่งดูแลทั้งหมดคงไม่ได้ แต่ถ้าดูจากกรอบระยะเวลาเรื่องน่าจะอยู่ที่ กกต.จว.แล้ว ส่วนการที่ กกต.ไม่ได้แจกใบแดง (เพิกถอนสิทธิเลือกตั้ง) ให้กับนายบุญจงนั้น เพราะพยานหลักฐานการสืบสวนไปไม่ถึง จึงเอาผิดได้เพียงให้ดำเนินคดีอาญา

@Mercato, i-apil tawn mi'g ampo -- kaming mga makasasala. :banana::banana::banana:

Hinaut na lang nga sa langub nga among gipuy-an
imo kaming matabangan
kay pwerteng ngioba didto :nuts:With all due respect sir, I and the rest of the mod team have given enough instructions before to use English or at least, Filipino in this part of the forums. This thread and the rest of the threads under Photography, Heritage and Architecture thread are already considered part of the international forums and are subject to this language policy. This policy has been agreed upon for more than 3 years now. I hope we would be more considerate about the other forumers who visit this part of the forums.

Threads under the regional forums are the only place where we allow people to use their local/vernacular language.

You know how to use Thai, so I think it wouldn't be that much of a problem if you would use English too.

Thank you.

@ archaeologue

There you go, the word vessel in English = large watercraft (noun), among other things.

The word embarcacion in Spanish = barco, boat, craft, vessel

So I do not understand the logic of "nationalists" twisting the name of the Malay boat word Barangay / Balangay and voila! It becomes a village. Really, it is mind boggling... :lol:

The Barangay being a boat is exactly my point, but you missed out on the fact which I mention that Alcina (1668) also uses the words "cabeza de barangay" and "barangay" to refer to a village about 125 pages later (250 if including the english translation using the Kobak-Guiterrez version). but apparently he does not explain why the shift from boat to community of kinsmen and women in the same volume.

padung ra ba ko sa manila ugma, di lang sa ko magpakita sa akong pagkaway gusto sa Tagalog heheh...

but I believe the geopolitical term "Barangay" which replaced the hispanic "Barrio" is historically a product of Martial Law when Marcos used it to define the powers of the barrios and break apart big ones in order to develop easier control of the grassroots for his dynasty or whatever his plans were at the start.

@ archaeologue

There you go, the word vessel in English = large watercraft (noun), among other things.

The word embarcacion in Spanish = barco, boat, craft, vessel

So I do not understand the logic of "nationalists" twisting the name of the Malay boat word Barangay / Balangay and voila! It becomes a village. Really, it is mind boggling... :lol:

The Barangay being a boat is exactly my point, but you missed out on the fact which I mention that Alcina (1668) also uses the words "cabeza de barangay" and "barangay" to refer to a village about 125 pages later (250 if including the english translation using the Kobak-Guiterrez version). but apparently he does not explain why the shift from boat to community of kinsmen and women in the same volume.

padung ra ba ko sa manila ugma, di lang sa ko magpakita sa akong pagkaway gusto sa Tagalog heheh...

but I believe the geopolitical term "Barangay" which replaced the hispanic "Barrio" is historically a product of Martial Law when Marcos used it to define the powers of the barrios and break apart big ones in order to develop easier control of the grassroots for his dynasty or whatever his plans were at the start.

^^

@Mercato, the eminent Episcopalian minister and Philippinist, the late William Henry Scott, has a definitive explanation for the expropriation by Tagalogs of the word "Barangay" in his book appropriately titled "Barangay: Sixteenth Century Philippine Culture and Society (Ateneo Press, 1994).

As part of his Introduction, Scott, citing the works of Alcina (1668) and Placencia (1589) writes thus (pages 4-5):

"Barangay, or balangay, was one of the first native words the Spaniards learned in the Philippines. When Antonio Pigafetta, Magellan's Italian expeditionary ethnographer, went ashore to parley with the ruler of Limasawa, they sat together in a boat drawn up on shore which Pigafetta called a balaghai. This word appears as either balangay or barangay, with the same meaning, in all the major languages of the Philippines, and the earliest Spanish dictionaries make it clear that it was pronounced "ba-la-ngay", not "ba-lang-gay". It is also worth noting that Pigafetta recorded the word both as balangai and as balanghai, which, of course, he wourld have pronounced the same since Italian had no h-sound.

"Unfortunately, this orthographic oddity gave birth in 1976 with the archaeological dicovery of an ancient boat in Butuan, to a bastard Philippine trm, "balanghay", which has gained popular currency though no such word is known in any Philippine language.

When the Spaniards reached Luzon, they found this word for boat also used for the smallest political unit of Tagalog society. Franciscan friar Juan de Plasencia (1589) described it as follows:

"These [datus] were chiefs of but a few people, as many as a hundred houses and even less than thirty; and this they call in Tagalog, barangay. And what was inferred from this name is that their being called this was because, since these are known from their language to be Malayos, when they came to this land, the head of barangay was taken for a datu, and even today it is still ascertained that one whole barangay was originally one family of parents and children, slaves and relatives."

"No doubt, the ancestors of the Tagalogs reached the archipelago in boats, but it is hardly likely that Tagalog communities could have maintained their discrete boatload identities across centuries and millennia. But the choice of the term, and the explanation for it, would have reinforced the perception of each community as historically distinct from all others, and legitimized its captain's claim to personal allegiance.

"These two meanings of the word barangay call attention to two important characteristics of sixteenth-century Philippines not characteristic of the twentieth---dependence oon boats and highly localized government."



so there you have it. much as we may not want to hear of this but the Tagalogs did not actually expropriate the term, according to Scott, quoting Plasencia. they were using it all along to refer to both the boat and the village of kin-related families ranging from 30 to 100---something which the Spaniards adopted for their collection of tributes so that to be a member of a barangay in Spanish times meant not your location but your membership in a king grouping, wherever you may be.

this made it quite difficult for cabezas de barangay to collect taxes when you moved to another place because even if you had moved, your barangay did not change. you still belonged to where you were listed in the first place. this is absolutely different in its usage today when Marcos expropriated the term to replace the Spanish "barrio".

^^

@Mercato, the eminent Episcopalian minister and Philippinist, the late William Henry Scott, has a definitive explanation for the expropriation by Tagalogs of the word "Barangay" in his book appropriately titled "Barangay: Sixteenth Century Philippine Culture and Society (Ateneo Press, 1994).

As part of his Introduction, Scott, citing the works of Alcina (1668) and Placencia (1589) writes thus (pages 4-5):

"Barangay, or balangay, was one of the first native words the Spaniards learned in the Philippines. When Antonio Pigafetta, Magellan's Italian expeditionary ethnographer, went ashore to parley with the ruler of Limasawa, they sat together in a boat drawn up on shore which Pigafetta called a balaghai. This word appears as either balangay or barangay, with the same meaning, in all the major languages of the Philippines, and the earliest Spanish dictionaries make it clear that it was pronounced "ba-la-ngay", not "ba-lang-gay". It is also worth noting that Pigafetta recorded the word both as balangai and as balanghai, which, of course, he wourld have pronounced the same since Italian had no h-sound.

"Unfortunately, this orthographic oddity gave birth in 1976 with the archaeological dicovery of an ancient boat in Butuan, to a bastard Philippine trm, "balanghay", which has gained popular currency though no such word is known in any Philippine language.

When the Spaniards reached Luzon, they found this word for boat also used for the smallest political unit of Tagalog society. Franciscan friar Juan de Plasencia (1589) described it as follows:

"These [datus] were chiefs of but a few people, as many as a hundred houses and even less than thirty; and this they call in Tagalog, barangay. And what was inferred from this name is that their being called this was because, since these are known from their language to be Malayos, when they came to this land, the head of barangay was taken for a datu, and even today it is still ascertained that one whole barangay was originally one family of parents and children, slaves and relatives."

"No doubt, the ancestors of the Tagalogs reached the archipelago in boats, but it is hardly likely that Tagalog communities could have maintained their discrete boatload identities across centuries and millennia. But the choice of the term, and the explanation for it, would have reinforced the perception of each community as historically distinct from all others, and legitimized its captain's claim to personal allegiance.

"These two meanings of the word barangay call attention to two important characteristics of sixteenth-century Philippines not characteristic of the twentieth---dependence oon boats and highly localized government."



so there you have it. much as we may not want to hear of this but the Tagalogs did not actually expropriate the term, according to Scott, quoting Plasencia. they were using it all along to refer to both the boat and the village of kin-related families ranging from 30 to 100---something which the Spaniards adopted for their collection of tributes so that to be a member of a barangay in Spanish times meant not your location but your membership in a king grouping, wherever you may be.

this made it quite difficult for cabezas de barangay to collect taxes when you moved to another place because even if you had moved, your barangay did not change. you still belonged to where you were listed in the first place. this is absolutely different in its usage today when Marcos expropriated the term to replace the Spanish "barrio".

^^^^ Thank you bai.
Point of order = in all my previous posts I had always ascribed the word barangay / balangay to the Malays since the term antedates the Spanish era. It was someone else who ascribed the word to the Tagalogs.
I don't quite understand what you're trying to point out. As far as I am concerned, what I did in the Cebuano thread was just plain SOP here. The heated arguments on that thread obviously got out of hand. And when things like that happen, we immediately close the threads and edit them as fast as we could. Aside from that, I believe I've given enough warnings not only now but also several times in that past.

Now, if you truly enjoy your life outside the net, I don't think you really have to brag it here. Oh well, I guess I don't have to mind that one too. ;)

Estimados Mods:

Vamos a ver. In the autumn of 2008, someone drops from out of the blue (a non Visayan) and begins to rile up the then peaceful topics in the old Cebuano thread.

He brings with him his views (alone against all the Visayans) on how we must think, what we must believe in and how we must see the world as he sees it. Like I stated, his posts are long winded & “like a raging bull in a china shop”. Susmariosep, everyone here knows that. Only his friends would be in a state of denial. Every one had read his long posts and we get the message loud and clear. It is just that we disagree.

Sure, for the sake of fairness; let all the Mods get together and investigate all the posts since 4-5 months back. It has been the same tired - same old, same old.

I took a 4-5 month sabbatical due to pressing work concerns & I thought when I returned it will be refreshing but I saw he was still at it, yes or no? YES. Am I actually to believe he has been at it on a 5 month long rant? I never heard anyone so hard working. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Are we here expected to pay obeisance to his every rant like a spoilt child? If we do not agree he goes on and on and on like ... gosh the only people I know who behave repetitiously as such are autistic.

Where are the American cliches – “Get over it”, “Give it a rest already”?

His acts bring attention to his friends, too; I am sure your Fil Am Samahan friends as well. Name calling us with sweeping curse names in the Cebuano forums. (Like the bitch word). Fortunately, their duration of stay is only brief.

So how is the new SOP gonna be? This fellow comes in here at will and his caprice, riles everyone up. When we react, we get the axe? That is not gonna solve any problem. IMHO.

There is hope actually, when you yourself told the guy to shut up. You yourself nailed it on the head when you said “everyone will only stand his ground”... that piece of observation is most astute. (All lines stated in the locked thread.)

The line you highlighted in bold was clearly directed at the offending fellow, not you. If there is a way of censoring the fellow from posting on any Visayan thread, then by all means, please. :lol:



Saludos

^^^^ Thank you bai.
Point of order = in all my previous posts I had always ascribed the word barangay / balangay to the Malays since the term antedates the Spanish era. It was someone else who ascribed the word to the Tagalogs.
I don't quite understand what you're trying to point out. As far as I am concerned, what I did in the Cebuano thread was just plain SOP here. The heated arguments on that thread obviously got out of hand. And when things like that happen, we immediately close the threads and edit them as fast as we could. Aside from that, I believe I've given enough warnings not only now but also several times in that past.

Now, if you truly enjoy your life outside the net, I don't think you really have to brag it here. Oh well, I guess I don't have to mind that one too. ;)

Estimados Mods:

Vamos a ver. In the autumn of 2008, someone drops from out of the blue (a non Visayan) and begins to rile up the then peaceful topics in the old Cebuano thread.

He brings with him his views (alone against all the Visayans) on how we must think, what we must believe in and how we must see the world as he sees it. Like I stated, his posts are long winded & “like a raging bull in a china shop”. Susmariosep, everyone here knows that. Only his friends would be in a state of denial. Every one had read his long posts and we get the message loud and clear. It is just that we disagree.

Sure, for the sake of fairness; let all the Mods get together and investigate all the posts since 4-5 months back. It has been the same tired - same old, same old.

I took a 4-5 month sabbatical due to pressing work concerns & I thought when I returned it will be refreshing but I saw he was still at it, yes or no? YES. Am I actually to believe he has been at it on a 5 month long rant? I never heard anyone so hard working. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Are we here expected to pay obeisance to his every rant like a spoilt child? If we do not agree he goes on and on and on like ... gosh the only people I know who behave repetitiously as such are autistic.

Where are the American cliches – “Get over it”, “Give it a rest already”?

His acts bring attention to his friends, too; I am sure your Fil Am Samahan friends as well. Name calling us with sweeping curse names in the Cebuano forums. (Like the bitch word). Fortunately, their duration of stay is only brief.

So how is the new SOP gonna be? This fellow comes in here at will and his caprice, riles everyone up. When we react, we get the axe? That is not gonna solve any problem. IMHO.

There is hope actually, when you yourself told the guy to shut up. You yourself nailed it on the head when you said “everyone will only stand his ground”... that piece of observation is most astute. (All lines stated in the locked thread.)

The line you highlighted in bold was clearly directed at the offending fellow, not you. If there is a way of censoring the fellow from posting on any Visayan thread, then by all means, please. :lol:



Saludos

^^

Thank God for such tender mercies that this guy you are talking about has not invaded this thread! Heaven forbid!

^^

Thank God for such tender mercies that this guy you are talking about has not invaded this thread! Heaven forbid!

perhaps you are familiar with their names, because some of the streets in cebu were named after them. but who are theses guys by the way. here are some pictures:

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/9240/88889402mk5.jpg

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2818/96067955gs6.jpg

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/8049/40071881sf2.jpg

perhaps you are familiar with their names, because some of the streets in cebu were named after them. but who are theses guys by the way. here are some pictures:

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/9240/88889402mk5.jpg

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2818/96067955gs6.jpg

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/8049/40071881sf2.jpg

With all due respect sir, I and the rest of the mod team have given enough instructions before to use English or at least, Filipino in this part of the forums. This thread and the rest of the threads under Photography, Heritage and Architecture thread are already considered part of the international forums and are subject to this language policy. This policy has been agreed upon for more than 3 years now. I hope we would be more considerate about the other forumers who visit this part of the forums.

Threads under the regional forums are the only place where we allow people to use their local/vernacular language.

You know how to use Thai, so I think it wouldn't be that much of a problem if you would use English too.

Thank you.

Nailad ang mod. Of course, I don't know Thai. I was just experimenting. :banana:

Isn't this a regional forum? We should all use English then. I would find it ridiculous to use Tagalog in a Cebuano thread.

Oh, I will certainly follow rules. Thank you. :lol:

With all due respect sir, I and the rest of the mod team have given enough instructions before to use English or at least, Filipino in this part of the forums. This thread and the rest of the threads under Photography, Heritage and Architecture thread are already considered part of the international forums and are subject to this language policy. This policy has been agreed upon for more than 3 years now. I hope we would be more considerate about the other forumers who visit this part of the forums.

Threads under the regional forums are the only place where we allow people to use their local/vernacular language.

You know how to use Thai, so I think it wouldn't be that much of a problem if you would use English too.

Thank you.

Nailad ang mod. Of course, I don't know Thai. I was just experimenting. :banana:

Isn't this a regional forum? We should all use English then. I would find it ridiculous to use Tagalog in a Cebuano thread.

Oh, I will certainly follow rules. Thank you. :lol:

perhaps you are familiar with their names, because some of the streets in cebu were named after them. but who are theses guys by the way. here are some pictures:

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/9240/88889402mk5.jpg

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2818/96067955gs6.jpg

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/8049/40071881sf2.jpg

Padre, some of them are leaders of the struggle against the Spaniards and some against the American occupation in Cebu in 1898 to 1902.

perhaps you are familiar with their names, because some of the streets in cebu were named after them. but who are theses guys by the way. here are some pictures:

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/9240/88889402mk5.jpg

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2818/96067955gs6.jpg

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/8049/40071881sf2.jpg

Padre, some of them are leaders of the struggle against the Spaniards and some against the American occupation in Cebu in 1898 to 1902.

matsalams @Ang_Bantayanon

i have new articles. those who are interested pm me.


The Spanish Philippines: Archaeological Perspectives on Colonial Economics and Society
Russell K. Skowronek

Abstract: When scholars consider Spanish colonialism in the Philippines their impressions are based largely on documentary evidence of their 377-year colonial presence and on romanticized impressions of the larger Spanish empire. In the New World, wherever Europeans settled, there is a clear break
in the archaeological sequence of pre-Columbian cultural traditions. In the systemic context these changes continue to be evidenced in architectural style, city plan, and diet. Today, however, archaeologists working in Luzon, Cebu, and Mindanao are revealing vast differences between the nature of Spanish colonialism in the Philippines and that seen in the Americas. There, the remoteness of the colony from Europe, combined with its geographical position on the doorstep of China, created a unique Spanish colonial adaptation that reveals the significance of Asia in the world economic order.


Integrating History and Archaeology in the Study of Contact Period Philippine Chiefdoms
Laura Lee Junker

Malay texts, Philippine oral traditions, Chinese tributary records and geographies, early Spanish writings, and archaeological evidence from Philippine sites present divergent views of political structures and political economies in Philippine chiefdoms of the late first millennium to midsecond millennium A.D. While some sources claim a political landscape dominated by a few large-scale, highly centralized polities almost wholly supported through foreign trade, others suggest the presence of more heterogeneous and politically segmented configurations of varying scale and complexity and with eclectic economic bases. These disparate narratives are evaluated in terms of methodological biases, their cultural context, and the historical circumstances of their production.


The Archaeology of Trading Systems, Part 1: Towards a New Trade Synthesis
Rahul Oka, Chapurukha M. Kusimba

Abstract After almost three centuries of investigations into the question of what it means to be human and the historical processes of becoming human, archaeologists have amassed a huge volume of data on prehistoric human interactions. One of the largest data sets available is on the global distribution and exchange of materials and commodities. What still remains insufficiently understood is the precise nature of these interactions and their role in shaping the diverse cultures that make up the human family as we know it. A plethora of theoretical models combined with a multitude of methodological approaches exist to explain one important aspect of human interaction—trade—and its role and place in shaping humanity. We argue that trade parallels political, religious, and social processes as one of the most significant factors to have affected our evolution. Here we review published literature on archaeological approaches to trade, including the primitivist-modernist and substantivist-formalist-Marxist debates. We also discuss economic, historical, and ethnographic research that directly addresses the role of traders and trade in both past and contemporary societies. In keeping with the complexities of interaction between trade and other aspects of human behavior, we suggest moving away from the either/or perspective or strong identification with any particular paradigm and suggest a return to the middle through a combinational approach to the study of trade in past societies.


EXPORTING THE EUROPEAN IDEA OF A NATIONAL LANGUAGE: SOME EDUCATIONAL IMPLICATIONS OF THE USE OF ENGLISH AND INDIGENOUS LANGUAGES IN THE PHILIPPINES
JERZY J. SMOLICZ AND ILLUMINADO NICAL

Abstract – The Philippines has a bilingual education policy, using English and a major indigenous language, Tagalog, renamed “Filipino”. This article describes a study on the problem facing approximately two thirds of the population who do not have English or Filipino as their first or home language. Senior secondary school students were asked abut their attitudes towards English, Filipino and their home language (Cebuana, Ilocano or Waray). Attitudes to the three languages differed. Some respondents favoured Filipino over English, others vice versa. Most respondents showed attachment to their home languages. The study concluded that it is possible for Filipinos to be literate in their mother tongue and still be fluent in Filipino, as the national language of the country, with English continuing in its role as the international language.

matsalams @Ang_Bantayanon

i have new articles. those who are interested pm me.


The Spanish Philippines: Archaeological Perspectives on Colonial Economics and Society
Russell K. Skowronek

Abstract: When scholars consider Spanish colonialism in the Philippines their impressions are based largely on documentary evidence of their 377-year colonial presence and on romanticized impressions of the larger Spanish empire. In the New World, wherever Europeans settled, there is a clear break
in the archaeological sequence of pre-Columbian cultural traditions. In the systemic context these changes continue to be evidenced in architectural style, city plan, and diet. Today, however, archaeologists working in Luzon, Cebu, and Mindanao are revealing vast differences between the nature of Spanish colonialism in the Philippines and that seen in the Americas. There, the remoteness of the colony from Europe, combined with its geographical position on the doorstep of China, created a unique Spanish colonial adaptation that reveals the significance of Asia in the world economic order.


Integrating History and Archaeology in the Study of Contact Period Philippine Chiefdoms
Laura Lee Junker

Malay texts, Philippine oral traditions, Chinese tributary records and geographies, early Spanish writings, and archaeological evidence from Philippine sites present divergent views of political structures and political economies in Philippine chiefdoms of the late first millennium to midsecond millennium A.D. While some sources claim a political landscape dominated by a few large-scale, highly centralized polities almost wholly supported through foreign trade, others suggest the presence of more heterogeneous and politically segmented configurations of varying scale and complexity and with eclectic economic bases. These disparate narratives are evaluated in terms of methodological biases, their cultural context, and the historical circumstances of their production.


The Archaeology of Trading Systems, Part 1: Towards a New Trade Synthesis
Rahul Oka, Chapurukha M. Kusimba

Abstract After almost three centuries of investigations into the question of what it means to be human and the historical processes of becoming human, archaeologists have amassed a huge volume of data on prehistoric human interactions. One of the largest data sets available is on the global distribution and exchange of materials and commodities. What still remains insufficiently understood is the precise nature of these interactions and their role in shaping the diverse cultures that make up the human family as we know it. A plethora of theoretical models combined with a multitude of methodological approaches exist to explain one important aspect of human interaction—trade—and its role and place in shaping humanity. We argue that trade parallels political, religious, and social processes as one of the most significant factors to have affected our evolution. Here we review published literature on archaeological approaches to trade, including the primitivist-modernist and substantivist-formalist-Marxist debates. We also discuss economic, historical, and ethnographic research that directly addresses the role of traders and trade in both past and contemporary societies. In keeping with the complexities of interaction between trade and other aspects of human behavior, we suggest moving away from the either/or perspective or strong identification with any particular paradigm and suggest a return to the middle through a combinational approach to the study of trade in past societies.


EXPORTING THE EUROPEAN IDEA OF A NATIONAL LANGUAGE: SOME EDUCATIONAL IMPLICATIONS OF THE USE OF ENGLISH AND INDIGENOUS LANGUAGES IN THE PHILIPPINES
JERZY J. SMOLICZ AND ILLUMINADO NICAL

Abstract – The Philippines has a bilingual education policy, using English and a major indigenous language, Tagalog, renamed “Filipino”. This article describes a study on the problem facing approximately two thirds of the population who do not have English or Filipino as their first or home language. Senior secondary school students were asked abut their attitudes towards English, Filipino and their home language (Cebuana, Ilocano or Waray). Attitudes to the three languages differed. Some respondents favoured Filipino over English, others vice versa. Most respondents showed attachment to their home languages. The study concluded that it is possible for Filipinos to be literate in their mother tongue and still be fluent in Filipino, as the national language of the country, with English continuing in its role as the international language.

Then we wouldn't have this cyber-conversation at all. Judging by the number of educated (meaning schooled) people during the over three hundred years the Spanish stayed in the Philippines, only a fraction of the Filipinos would be educated until now.

The Americans started their stay with a massive move to educate us, no wonder we Filipinos "fell" under their charms. Never mind that their reasons were not truly altruistic as they would want the world to believe, but educate us they did.

Spain is a romantic idea, imagine speaking the lovely Spanish language and eating paella with a glass of vino rojo all the time. But we would still look awkward doing that with our distinctively brown skin and oriental features. Juan Luna painted himself looking almost Spanish - in his dreams!

Forgive me for seemingly digressing, but that's all it amounts to - the thought of not seeking independence!

^^^^

Hahah. I say amen to that, Ang Karaang Tawo.

How dreadful to think that we are perhaps better off without independence.

:nuts:


so i thought...pardon my previous post, i was just pondering on a hypothetetical situation...

regarding independence though, i am sad to say that we still remain a colony to this day...

Then we wouldn't have this cyber-conversation at all. Judging by the number of educated (meaning schooled) people during the over three hundred years the Spanish stayed in the Philippines, only a fraction of the Filipinos would be educated until now.

The Americans started their stay with a massive move to educate us, no wonder we Filipinos "fell" under their charms. Never mind that their reasons were not truly altruistic as they would want the world to believe, but educate us they did.

Spain is a romantic idea, imagine speaking the lovely Spanish language and eating paella with a glass of vino rojo all the time. But we would still look awkward doing that with our distinctively brown skin and oriental features. Juan Luna painted himself looking almost Spanish - in his dreams!

Forgive me for seemingly digressing, but that's all it amounts to - the thought of not seeking independence!

^^^^

Hahah. I say amen to that, Ang Karaang Tawo.

How dreadful to think that we are perhaps better off without independence.

:nuts:


so i thought...pardon my previous post, i was just pondering on a hypothetetical situation...

regarding independence though, i am sad to say that we still remain a colony to this day...

@Gee, these articles lang kay i already got the Junker ones:


matsalams @Ang_Bantayanon


The Spanish Philippines: Archaeological Perspectives on Colonial Economics and Society
Russell K. Skowronek



The Archaeology of Trading Systems, Part 1: Towards a New Trade Synthesis
Rahul Oka, Chapurukha M. Kusimba



EXPORTING THE EUROPEAN IDEA OF A NATIONAL LANGUAGE: SOME EDUCATIONAL IMPLICATIONS OF THE USE OF ENGLISH AND INDIGENOUS LANGUAGES IN THE PHILIPPINES
JERZY J. SMOLICZ AND ILLUMINADO NICAL



Danke schon!

@Gee, these articles lang kay i already got the Junker ones:


matsalams @Ang_Bantayanon


The Spanish Philippines: Archaeological Perspectives on Colonial Economics and Society
Russell K. Skowronek



The Archaeology of Trading Systems, Part 1: Towards a New Trade Synthesis
Rahul Oka, Chapurukha M. Kusimba



EXPORTING THE EUROPEAN IDEA OF A NATIONAL LANGUAGE: SOME EDUCATIONAL IMPLICATIONS OF THE USE OF ENGLISH AND INDIGENOUS LANGUAGES IN THE PHILIPPINES
JERZY J. SMOLICZ AND ILLUMINADO NICAL



Danke schon!

so i thought...pardon my previous post, i was just pondering on a hypothetetical situation...

regarding independence though, i am sad to say that we still remain a colony to this day...

no need to apologize, really. i get your point now. and yes, given the earlier arguments, it would seem to be the case of us being still a colony. ah, Imperial Manila and how it affects our lives!

so i thought...pardon my previous post, i was just pondering on a hypothetetical situation...

regarding independence though, i am sad to say that we still remain a colony to this day...

no need to apologize, really. i get your point now. and yes, given the earlier arguments, it would seem to be the case of us being still a colony. ah, Imperial Manila and how it affects our lives!

perhaps you are familiar with their names, because some of the streets in cebu were named after them. but who are theses guys by the way. here are some pictures:

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/9240/88889402mk5.jpg

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2818/96067955gs6.jpg

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/8049/40071881sf2.jpg

If not of this thread, i could not have known better the history of Cebu, thanks to the ever-biased Philippine history.

perhaps you are familiar with their names, because some of the streets in cebu were named after them. but who are theses guys by the way. here are some pictures:

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/9240/88889402mk5.jpg

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2818/96067955gs6.jpg

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/8049/40071881sf2.jpg

If not of this thread, i could not have known better the history of Cebu, thanks to the ever-biased Philippine history.

Estimados Mods:
Vamos a ver. In the autumn of 2008, someone drops from out of the blue (a non Visayan) and begins to rile up the then peaceful topics in the old Cebuano thread.

He brings with him his views (alone against all the Visayans) on how we must think, what we must believe in and how we must see the world as he sees it. Like I stated, his posts are long winded & “like a raging bull in a china shop”. Susmariosep, everyone here knows that. Only his friends would be in a state of denial. Every one had read his long posts and we get the message loud and clear. It is just that we disagree.

So how is the new SOP gonna be? This fellow comes in here at will and his caprice, riles everyone up. When we react, we get the axe? That is not gonna solve any problem. IMHO.

There is hope actually, when you yourself told the guy to shut up. You yourself nailed it on the head when you said “everyone will only stand his ground”... that piece of observation is most astute. (All lines stated in the locked thread.)

The line you highlighted in bold was clearly directed at the offending fellow, not you. If there is a way of censoring the fellow from posting on any Visayan thread, then by all means, please. :lol:

SaludosI understand. I am glad you brought this up. Yes, I now remember what you're saying. I'm just quite confused right now because both camps are throwing the same accusations (the one I highlighted in bold) and it would take me a lot of time to read all the posts from this thread.

Let me just clarify this one thing: we close threads not because we want to punish you or anyone else. This is SOP. We close the threads because it takes us some time to edit or delete posts. And since I've been away for weeks, I wasn't able to monitor my turf for uneccessary posts. Worse, when I came back all I would see are the same old trash.

When things like this spring out, please, I remind everyone to report it to us via PM (the report button isn't working lately http://www.skyscrapercity.com/images/buttons/report.gif). There's no point in arguing with other forumers esp when they deal with topics such as ehtnoliguistic differences/stereotypes, religion, politics, etc. We won't gain anything from that. These debates only result to hatred. Actually, the SSC administrators (our "bosses") don't really encourage people to talk about these things but we still allow it anyway because we believe that we all could learn something from it. I hope that we would all cooperate so we could have a healthy discussion here.

Nevertheless, I am now editing the thread and would open it up after a few days. Please bear with me, it is hard to juggle work and SSC all at the same time.
^^
Thank God for such tender mercies that this guy you are talking about has not invaded this thread! Heaven forbid!No worries, I'll try to make your thread as peaceful as possible. Just try to ignore the person and PM it ASAP so things wouldn't be messy.

Nailad ang mod. Of course, I don't know Thai. I was just experimenting. :banana:
Isn't this a regional forum? We should all use English then. I would find it ridiculous to use Tagalog in a Cebuano thread.

Oh, I will certainly follow rules. Thank you. :lol:Oh I also have to clarify that one: the Cebuano Language thread and the rest of the language threads in the Heritage section aren't considered regional threads. The mods just allowed these threads to flourish because they thought that the forumers would just promote their language by posting the grammatical rules, syntax, phonetics or whathaveyous. And also we could at least learn something about the Cebuano language. This has always been the case in the other language threads. I just find it weird that only the Cebuano Language thread is getting all the flak.

And my bad, I didn't mean that vernaculars per se aren't allowed. What I forgot to tell you is that there should always be an accompanying translation as a sign of respect to other forumers who don't understand the language. Aside from that, how would we learn the language if you would all talk in pure Cebuano, right?

And lastly, please try to post all your concerns in this thread: Tinig ng mga SSC Kababayan Thread (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=697060). We don't want to mess up with archaeologue's thread this time, do we? He's contributing much on this thread and I really appreciate that.

Thanks for the time reading this and please PM me for other concerns. Merci beacoup. :cheers:

Estimados Mods:
Vamos a ver. In the autumn of 2008, someone drops from out of the blue (a non Visayan) and begins to rile up the then peaceful topics in the old Cebuano thread.

He brings with him his views (alone against all the Visayans) on how we must think, what we must believe in and how we must see the world as he sees it. Like I stated, his posts are long winded & “like a raging bull in a china shop”. Susmariosep, everyone here knows that. Only his friends would be in a state of denial. Every one had read his long posts and we get the message loud and clear. It is just that we disagree.

So how is the new SOP gonna be? This fellow comes in here at will and his caprice, riles everyone up. When we react, we get the axe? That is not gonna solve any problem. IMHO.

There is hope actually, when you yourself told the guy to shut up. You yourself nailed it on the head when you said “everyone will only stand his ground”... that piece of observation is most astute. (All lines stated in the locked thread.)

The line you highlighted in bold was clearly directed at the offending fellow, not you. If there is a way of censoring the fellow from posting on any Visayan thread, then by all means, please. :lol:

SaludosI understand. I am glad you brought this up. Yes, I now remember what you're saying. I'm just quite confused right now because both camps are throwing the same accusations (the one I highlighted in bold) and it would take me a lot of time to read all the posts from this thread.

Let me just clarify this one thing: we close threads not because we want to punish you or anyone else. This is SOP. We close the threads because it takes us some time to edit or delete posts. And since I've been away for weeks, I wasn't able to monitor my turf for uneccessary posts. Worse, when I came back all I would see are the same old trash.

When things like this spring out, please, I remind everyone to report it to us via PM (the report button isn't working lately http://www.skyscrapercity.com/images/buttons/report.gif). There's no point in arguing with other forumers esp when they deal with topics such as ehtnoliguistic differences/stereotypes, religion, politics, etc. We won't gain anything from that. These debates only result to hatred. Actually, the SSC administrators (our "bosses") don't really encourage people to talk about these things but we still allow it anyway because we believe that we all could learn something from it. I hope that we would all cooperate so we could have a healthy discussion here.

Nevertheless, I am now editing the thread and would open it up after a few days. Please bear with me, it is hard to juggle work and SSC all at the same time.
^^
Thank God for such tender mercies that this guy you are talking about has not invaded this thread! Heaven forbid!No worries, I'll try to make your thread as peaceful as possible. Just try to ignore the person and PM it ASAP so things wouldn't be messy.

Nailad ang mod. Of course, I don't know Thai. I was just experimenting. :banana:
Isn't this a regional forum? We should all use English then. I would find it ridiculous to use Tagalog in a Cebuano thread.

Oh, I will certainly follow rules. Thank you. :lol:Oh I also have to clarify that one: the Cebuano Language thread and the rest of the language threads in the Heritage section aren't considered regional threads. The mods just allowed these threads to flourish because they thought that the forumers would just promote their language by posting the grammatical rules, syntax, phonetics or whathaveyous. And also we could at least learn something about the Cebuano language. This has always been the case in the other language threads. I just find it weird that only the Cebuano Language thread is getting all the flak.

And my bad, I didn't mean that vernaculars per se aren't allowed. What I forgot to tell you is that there should always be an accompanying translation as a sign of respect to other forumers who don't understand the language. Aside from that, how would we learn the language if you would all talk in pure Cebuano, right?

And lastly, please try to post all your concerns in this thread: Tinig ng mga SSC Kababayan Thread (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=697060). We don't want to mess up with archaeologue's thread this time, do we? He's contributing much on this thread and I really appreciate that.

Thanks for the time reading this and please PM me for other concerns. Merci beacoup. :cheers:

umh, do anyone have pictures of El Boletin de Cebu? thanks

umh, do anyone have pictures of El Boletin de Cebu? thanks

Thanks Gee.



The Spanish colonial parish churches were formerly state edifice, funded and constructed at the State's expense, since the Spanish monarch was patron of the church ( Spain and its dominion ). I wonder if the government, as heir of the Spanish state in the Philippines, could have leverage in the modification, repair and restoration by virtue of this association

Because of the separation of church and state today, the government cannot do anything about this. Unless! the church has been declared a National Historical Landmark. In which case the church cannot be touched meaning renovated without consulting the government agency involved in this.

Which was not the case during the Spanish time as you had stated.

Thanks Gee.



The Spanish colonial parish churches were formerly state edifice, funded and constructed at the State's expense, since the Spanish monarch was patron of the church ( Spain and its dominion ). I wonder if the government, as heir of the Spanish state in the Philippines, could have leverage in the modification, repair and restoration by virtue of this association

Because of the separation of church and state today, the government cannot do anything about this. Unless! the church has been declared a National Historical Landmark. In which case the church cannot be touched meaning renovated without consulting the government agency involved in this.

Which was not the case during the Spanish time as you had stated.

perhaps you are familiar with their names, because some of the streets in cebu were named after them. but who are theses guys by the way. here are some pictures:

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/9240/88889402mk5.jpg

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2818/96067955gs6.jpg

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/8049/40071881sf2.jpg

Thank you very much for posting these pictures! Priceless!:bow:^^

perhaps you are familiar with their names, because some of the streets in cebu were named after them. but who are theses guys by the way. here are some pictures:

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/9240/88889402mk5.jpg

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2818/96067955gs6.jpg

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/8049/40071881sf2.jpg

Thank you very much for posting these pictures! Priceless!:bow:^^

^^

Thank God for such tender mercies that this guy you are talking about has not invaded this thread! Heaven forbid!

naa baya

^^

Thank God for such tender mercies that this guy you are talking about has not invaded this thread! Heaven forbid!

naa baya

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/8049/40071881sf2.jpg

Gavinu Sepulvida, the officer, if I am not mistaken, he is from Borbon.

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/8049/40071881sf2.jpg

Gavinu Sepulvida, the officer, if I am not mistaken, he is from Borbon.

Interesting to finally see the pictures of those men. Harve sent me a private message actually before about the list of Royalist. I was intrigue because I am a Climaco in my maternal-side of the family. But I am not that close with them. I am not sure if I am somewhat related to Juan Climaco but my mother's relatives are involved in politics unlike my paternal side. She had also said before that her other paternal grandmother was a Chinese mestiza. I haven't had the chance of researching my maternal background unlike my paternal side of the family.

:)

Here's a short list of known royalists who were either voluntarios locales and/or tenientes del barrios and some spanish priests and traitors:

TRAITORS:

Apolinario Alcuitas (Carcar)
kapitan Florencio Noel (Tan Insyong)
Timoteo Barcenilla
Capitan Kadyo Jaen
Capitan Jacinto Velez
Capitan Simeon Paras
Mariano Alfafara

PRIESTS:

Father Tomas Gimenez (El Pardo)
Parish priest of San Nicolas, Fray Pedro Medina,
Parish priest of Talisay, Fr. Valerio Rodrigo
Parish priest of Carcar, Fray Emiliano Diez
Parish priest of Argao, Fr. Antolin Frias
Parish priest of Cordoba, Fray Jose Baztan (Executed in town plaza)

TEACHERS:

Cartilla teacher maestro Mariano Crisologo

TIPSTER:

Teniente Januario Gabrillo of Basak, San Nicolas
(instead of being released as promised, he was tortured and subsequently died from his wounds on March 21, 1898)

Pro-Spanish Tagalog who served as a spy, Crispulo Valderrama (arrested during the retaking of the City on April 5th)
Raymundo Jurado(executed by spanish reinforcements)
Jose Abelgas from Carcar(executed by spanish reinforcements).
A woman informer of Labangon
A certain Potenciana from Pardo


VOLUNTARIOS LOCALES/PRO-SPANISH OFFICIALS/PRO-SPANISH LOCALS:

Tagalogs of the 73rd regiment
Capitan municipal Francisco Rodriguez, the former cuadrillo chief
Cesario Mendoza, the capitan municipal of Mandaue
Angel Libre
Jose Rodriguez
Francisco Villaester
Juan Climaco
Captain Revilla, chief of the local volunteers of Cebu
Remigio Gutierres, registrar of Cebu
Sgt. Claudio Gomez
Aguedo Batobalonos
Fidel Moa
Pedro Royo
A certain Cuito
Eduardo Lopez
Florentino Rallos
Francisco del Mar
Francisco Sales
Arsenio Climaco
Manuel Roa
Jose Ocampo
Juan Borres
Esteban Manuel
Angel Iriarte
Jose Atillano
Eduardo Lopez
Manuel Maldonado
Apolinar Kabilbil
Godofredo Lago
Simeon Padriga
Pedro Sanson
Juan Borres
Raymundo Enriquez (father of Manuel Enriquez de la Calzada).

Interesting to finally see the pictures of those men. Harve sent me a private message actually before about the list of Royalist. I was intrigue because I am a Climaco in my maternal-side of the family. But I am not that close with them. I am not sure if I am somewhat related to Juan Climaco but my mother's relatives are involved in politics unlike my paternal side. She had also said before that her other paternal grandmother was a Chinese mestiza. I haven't had the chance of researching my maternal background unlike my paternal side of the family.

:)

Here's a short list of known royalists who were either voluntarios locales and/or tenientes del barrios and some spanish priests and traitors:

TRAITORS:

Apolinario Alcuitas (Carcar)
kapitan Florencio Noel (Tan Insyong)
Timoteo Barcenilla
Capitan Kadyo Jaen
Capitan Jacinto Velez
Capitan Simeon Paras
Mariano Alfafara

PRIESTS:

Father Tomas Gimenez (El Pardo)
Parish priest of San Nicolas, Fray Pedro Medina,
Parish priest of Talisay, Fr. Valerio Rodrigo
Parish priest of Carcar, Fray Emiliano Diez
Parish priest of Argao, Fr. Antolin Frias
Parish priest of Cordoba, Fray Jose Baztan (Executed in town plaza)

TEACHERS:

Cartilla teacher maestro Mariano Crisologo

TIPSTER:

Teniente Januario Gabrillo of Basak, San Nicolas
(instead of being released as promised, he was tortured and subsequently died from his wounds on March 21, 1898)

Pro-Spanish Tagalog who served as a spy, Crispulo Valderrama (arrested during the retaking of the City on April 5th)
Raymundo Jurado(executed by spanish reinforcements)
Jose Abelgas from Carcar(executed by spanish reinforcements).
A woman informer of Labangon
A certain Potenciana from Pardo


VOLUNTARIOS LOCALES/PRO-SPANISH OFFICIALS/PRO-SPANISH LOCALS:

Tagalogs of the 73rd regiment
Capitan municipal Francisco Rodriguez, the former cuadrillo chief
Cesario Mendoza, the capitan municipal of Mandaue
Angel Libre
Jose Rodriguez
Francisco Villaester
Juan Climaco
Captain Revilla, chief of the local volunteers of Cebu
Remigio Gutierres, registrar of Cebu
Sgt. Claudio Gomez
Aguedo Batobalonos
Fidel Moa
Pedro Royo
A certain Cuito
Eduardo Lopez
Florentino Rallos
Francisco del Mar
Francisco Sales
Arsenio Climaco
Manuel Roa
Jose Ocampo
Juan Borres
Esteban Manuel
Angel Iriarte
Jose Atillano
Eduardo Lopez
Manuel Maldonado
Apolinar Kabilbil
Godofredo Lago
Simeon Padriga
Pedro Sanson
Juan Borres
Raymundo Enriquez (father of Manuel Enriquez de la Calzada).

I am in favour of Independence but credit should also be given to Spain. Our heroes looked up and loved Liberal Spain and I would also admire the courage of the liberals who took up for reforms under the strict ethics that had co-existed between the Church and the Spanish State. I have to admit that because of the Church's strong control of the islands liberal ideas could not easily be implemented but apart from that the Philippines as a whole was well educated if we compare ourselves with other Asian Kingdoms. If is a well known fact that the educated were mostly the clergy, elite, and the merchant class. No different in the United States or in China or Japan.

La educación en Filipinas (http://www.seacex.es/documentos/imag_colonial_12_educacion.pdf)

:)

---

PUBLIC EDUCATION DURING THE 19TH CENTURY ON A COMPARATIVE BASIS
Fernando Nakpil-Ziálcita has M.A. in Philosophy from Ateneo de Manila University, and an M.A. and a Ph.D. in Anthropology from the University of Hawaii. Dr. Zialcita teaches at the Department of Sociology and Anthropology at the Loyola Schools, Ateneo de Manila University, and heads the Cultural Heritage Studies Program at the same.

It is often said today that Spain kept the Filipinos ignorant during much of its rule, and that we owe our mass, public schooling to the US. How true is this claim?


1. Today we assume that the provision of public schooling is a duty of every State. But., like many things we take for granted today, this was in fact a 19TH CENTURY INVENTION. Just likely the telegraph, the railroad, liberal democracy and socialist ideals. Certainly in the US, as this entry suggests, it begins to appear only during the first decades of the 19th century and becomes widespread in many states only later -- during the 2nd half of that century.

http://www.history.com/encyclopedia.do?articleId=208260
http://kclibrary.nhmccd.edu/19thcentury1800.htm

2. In France, then the vanguard of Europe, public education becomes mandatory under the Guizot Law of 1833.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3686/is_200104/ai_n8934806/pg_21
http://hypo.ge-dip.etat-ge.ch/www/cliotexte/html/instruction.19e.siecle.html

3. But who should control the schools: the Church or the State? In France, Spain and other Catholic countries, the battle between the Church and the State was bitter. It was only during the Third Republic in France at the close of the 19th century, that the republican forces were able to push for a wholly secular educational system.

http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/context/19_siecle/chrono_19.htm

4. What was the situation like in the Philippines during the 19th century? Jean Mallat lived in the Philippines for 8 years. In his 2 volume 1846 book, “The Philippines”, he wrote, “In the Philippines, the education of sons of the country as well as of mestizos and indios of both sexes is not as neglected as certain persons claim. On the contrary, the colony has from the start made the greatest effort for the education of the people. Even in the smallest villages, indios find facilities for learning to read and write; everywhere there are primary schools paid by the pueblo…the education of the indios is far from backward, if compared to that of the lower classes in Europe.”


5. In 1863, public education became mandatory in Spanish Philippines. Every sizeable municipality was required to set up a public school. The German scientist Fedor Jagor observed in his 1873 book, “Travels in the Philippines”, that almost every pueblo did have a school.


6. How good were the facilities? Mallat observes that “Rather well furnished libraries exist in all convents and those of the university and colleges offer resources to pupils receiving education in these establishments.” But we can be sure that then as NOW, many schools in the provincial towns did not have adequate libraries, if at all. Small wonder that the Swedish economist Gunnar Myrdal in his review of public education in 19th century Asia in “The Asian Drama” (1968), singles out Japan and the Philippines for their governments’ commitment.


7. Who controlled the schools? Not surprisingly there was a fierce battle for control of the public schools. The quarrel between Ibarra and the parish priest about the public school in the fictitious town of San Diego in Rizal’s “Noli Me Tangere” (1887) was a microcosm of a larger battle. Initially the religious seem to have won the opening round. A Normal School was set up in Manila to train the public school teachers. But guess who trained them? The Jesuits.


8. How good was the classroom instruction? From my 21st century vantage point, I would say “Dreadful.” Rote learning, submission to the teacher’s authority, the heavy use of corporal punishment: these seemed to have characterized classroom instruction in the Philippines. But was this typical only of Spanish Philippines? Certainly not! Read the novels of Charles Dickens, whose setting is the 19th century, and observe how schoolmasters terrorized their students. A few weeks ago, the French Tele5 showed a film on the life of a woman who revolutionized instruction in 19th century France by instilling confidence in her young students instead of humiliating them in public. A teacher who substituted for her forbade one young student from going to the rest room. He ended up defecating in his pants.


9. I suspect the quality of instruction in Manila colleges then was comparable, not with that of schools in the capital cities of Western Europe, but rather with that of provincial colleges in Spain and France of that period.


10. That the quality was nonetheless laudable shows in that Rizal and his contemporaries, who went to Europe for their higher studies, were able to compete with their peers. Dr. Ariston Bautista, who developed paregoric acid as a cure for the initial symptoms of cholera, went to Madrid’s Universidad Central for his medical training. He did well. So did a grand-uncle of mine, Agapito Zialcita who went to Liverpool for training in industrial engineering. And likewise the Luna brothers, Jose Alejandrino, Edilberto Evangelista, etc. During the war with Spain and the US, some of them would put to effective use the engineering skills they had learned.


11. It is not easy to interpret history. Even some professional historians fall into the trap of examining a pattern of behavior in ISOLATION from its historical context. Freedom of speech, freedom to choose for one’s self are all 19th century popularizations. So likewise is the wedding between science-driven technology and manufacture. All these in one way or the other compelled 19th century States – and not earlier -- to examine public education as an obligation.

12. In judging an institution of the past, we should try to read as much as we can of similar institutions in comparable countries of that same period. We should try to understand the social forces that shaped that period. Otherwise our evaluation becomes thoroughly unjust.

Then we wouldn't have this cyber-conversation at all. Judging by the number of educated (meaning schooled) people during the over three hundred years the Spanish stayed in the Philippines, only a fraction of the Filipinos would be educated until now.

The Americans started their stay with a massive move to educate us, no wonder we Filipinos "fell" under their charms. Never mind that their reasons were not truly altruistic as they would want the world to believe, but educate us they did.

Spain is a romantic idea, imagine speaking the lovely Spanish language and eating paella with a glass of vino rojo all the time. But we would still look awkward doing that with our distinctively brown skin and oriental features. Juan Luna painted himself looking almost Spanish - in his dreams!

Forgive me for seemingly digressing, but that's all it amounts to - the thought of not seeking independence!

I am in favour of Independence but credit should also be given to Spain. Our heroes looked up and loved Liberal Spain and I would also admire the courage of the liberals who took up for reforms under the strict ethics that had co-existed between the Church and the Spanish State. I have to admit that because of the Church's strong control of the islands liberal ideas could not easily be implemented but apart from that the Philippines as a whole was well educated if we compare ourselves with other Asian Kingdoms. If is a well known fact that the educated were mostly the clergy, elite, and the merchant class. No different in the United States or in China or Japan.

La educación en Filipinas (http://www.seacex.es/documentos/imag_colonial_12_educacion.pdf)

:)

---

PUBLIC EDUCATION DURING THE 19TH CENTURY ON A COMPARATIVE BASIS
Fernando Nakpil-Ziálcita has M.A. in Philosophy from Ateneo de Manila University, and an M.A. and a Ph.D. in Anthropology from the University of Hawaii. Dr. Zialcita teaches at the Department of Sociology and Anthropology at the Loyola Schools, Ateneo de Manila University, and heads the Cultural Heritage Studies Program at the same.

It is often said today that Spain kept the Filipinos ignorant during much of its rule, and that we owe our mass, public schooling to the US. How true is this claim?


1. Today we assume that the provision of public schooling is a duty of every State. But., like many things we take for granted today, this was in fact a 19TH CENTURY INVENTION. Just likely the telegraph, the railroad, liberal democracy and socialist ideals. Certainly in the US, as this entry suggests, it begins to appear only during the first decades of the 19th century and becomes widespread in many states only later -- during the 2nd half of that century.

http://www.history.com/encyclopedia.do?articleId=208260
http://kclibrary.nhmccd.edu/19thcentury1800.htm

2. In France, then the vanguard of Europe, public education becomes mandatory under the Guizot Law of 1833.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3686/is_200104/ai_n8934806/pg_21
http://hypo.ge-dip.etat-ge.ch/www/cliotexte/html/instruction.19e.siecle.html

3. But who should control the schools: the Church or the State? In France, Spain and other Catholic countries, the battle between the Church and the State was bitter. It was only during the Third Republic in France at the close of the 19th century, that the republican forces were able to push for a wholly secular educational system.

http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/context/19_siecle/chrono_19.htm

4. What was the situation like in the Philippines during the 19th century? Jean Mallat lived in the Philippines for 8 years. In his 2 volume 1846 book, “The Philippines”, he wrote, “In the Philippines, the education of sons of the country as well as of mestizos and indios of both sexes is not as neglected as certain persons claim. On the contrary, the colony has from the start made the greatest effort for the education of the people. Even in the smallest villages, indios find facilities for learning to read and write; everywhere there are primary schools paid by the pueblo…the education of the indios is far from backward, if compared to that of the lower classes in Europe.”


5. In 1863, public education became mandatory in Spanish Philippines. Every sizeable municipality was required to set up a public school. The German scientist Fedor Jagor observed in his 1873 book, “Travels in the Philippines”, that almost every pueblo did have a school.


6. How good were the facilities? Mallat observes that “Rather well furnished libraries exist in all convents and those of the university and colleges offer resources to pupils receiving education in these establishments.” But we can be sure that then as NOW, many schools in the provincial towns did not have adequate libraries, if at all. Small wonder that the Swedish economist Gunnar Myrdal in his review of public education in 19th century Asia in “The Asian Drama” (1968), singles out Japan and the Philippines for their governments’ commitment.


7. Who controlled the schools? Not surprisingly there was a fierce battle for control of the public schools. The quarrel between Ibarra and the parish priest about the public school in the fictitious town of San Diego in Rizal’s “Noli Me Tangere” (1887) was a microcosm of a larger battle. Initially the religious seem to have won the opening round. A Normal School was set up in Manila to train the public school teachers. But guess who trained them? The Jesuits.


8. How good was the classroom instruction? From my 21st century vantage point, I would say “Dreadful.” Rote learning, submission to the teacher’s authority, the heavy use of corporal punishment: these seemed to have characterized classroom instruction in the Philippines. But was this typical only of Spanish Philippines? Certainly not! Read the novels of Charles Dickens, whose setting is the 19th century, and observe how schoolmasters terrorized their students. A few weeks ago, the French Tele5 showed a film on the life of a woman who revolutionized instruction in 19th century France by instilling confidence in her young students instead of humiliating them in public. A teacher who substituted for her forbade one young student from going to the rest room. He ended up defecating in his pants.


9. I suspect the quality of instruction in Manila colleges then was comparable, not with that of schools in the capital cities of Western Europe, but rather with that of provincial colleges in Spain and France of that period.


10. That the quality was nonetheless laudable shows in that Rizal and his contemporaries, who went to Europe for their higher studies, were able to compete with their peers. Dr. Ariston Bautista, who developed paregoric acid as a cure for the initial symptoms of cholera, went to Madrid’s Universidad Central for his medical training. He did well. So did a grand-uncle of mine, Agapito Zialcita who went to Liverpool for training in industrial engineering. And likewise the Luna brothers, Jose Alejandrino, Edilberto Evangelista, etc. During the war with Spain and the US, some of them would put to effective use the engineering skills they had learned.


11. It is not easy to interpret history. Even some professional historians fall into the trap of examining a pattern of behavior in ISOLATION from its historical context. Freedom of speech, freedom to choose for one’s self are all 19th century popularizations. So likewise is the wedding between science-driven technology and manufacture. All these in one way or the other compelled 19th century States – and not earlier -- to examine public education as an obligation.

12. In judging an institution of the past, we should try to read as much as we can of similar institutions in comparable countries of that same period. We should try to understand the social forces that shaped that period. Otherwise our evaluation becomes thoroughly unjust.

Then we wouldn't have this cyber-conversation at all. Judging by the number of educated (meaning schooled) people during the over three hundred years the Spanish stayed in the Philippines, only a fraction of the Filipinos would be educated until now.

The Americans started their stay with a massive move to educate us, no wonder we Filipinos "fell" under their charms. Never mind that their reasons were not truly altruistic as they would want the world to believe, but educate us they did.

Spain is a romantic idea, imagine speaking the lovely Spanish language and eating paella with a glass of vino rojo all the time. But we would still look awkward doing that with our distinctively brown skin and oriental features. Juan Luna painted himself looking almost Spanish - in his dreams!

Forgive me for seemingly digressing, but that's all it amounts to - the thought of not seeking independence!

Because of the separation of church and state today, the government cannot do anything about this. Unless! the church has been declared a National Historical Landmark. In which case the church cannot be touched meaning renovated without consulting the government agency involved in this.

Which was not the case during the Spanish time as you had stated.

Which is not the case at all....There are really some hard headed priests who would push through with their "so-called projects" even without the nod of the NHI-NCCA.

As what they say, the church and the state are separate entities....Frustrating fore most of the time.

Because of the separation of church and state today, the government cannot do anything about this. Unless! the church has been declared a National Historical Landmark. In which case the church cannot be touched meaning renovated without consulting the government agency involved in this.

Which was not the case during the Spanish time as you had stated.

Which is not the case at all....There are really some hard headed priests who would push through with their "so-called projects" even without the nod of the NHI-NCCA.

As what they say, the church and the state are separate entities....Frustrating fore most of the time.

Aguedo Batobalonos shouldn't be on the list of traitors. He is a hero from Santa Fe, Bantayan. He was imprisoned in Barili in 1898 when the revolution broke out. When the revolution reached Barili, he got out of his cell and burned all Spanish documents. He later led the revolution against the Spaniards there, then went to Tuburan to join other Cebuano rebel forces. I should know this because this was my undergrad history thesis.

The list has to be sifted. It is unfair for other heroes to be labelled traitors to the mother land. If historical inaccuracy will persist then there'd come a time when these mistakes will be taken as truths.

Aguedo Batobalonos shouldn't be on the list of traitors. He is a hero from Santa Fe, Bantayan. He was imprisoned in Barili in 1898 when the revolution broke out. When the revolution reached Barili, he got out of his cell and burned all Spanish documents. He later led the revolution against the Spaniards there, then went to Tuburan to join other Cebuano rebel forces. I should know this because this was my undergrad history thesis.

The list has to be sifted. It is unfair for other heroes to be labelled traitors to the mother land. If historical inaccuracy will persist then there'd come a time when these mistakes will be taken as truths.

I am in favour of Independence but credit should also be given to Spain. Our heroes looked up and loved Liberal Spain and I would also admire the courage of the liberals who took up for reforms under the strict ethics that had co-existed between the Church and the Spanish State. I have to admit that because of the Church's strong control of the islands liberal ideas could not easily be implemented but apart from that the Philippines as a whole was well educated if we compare ourselves with other Asian Kingdoms. If is a well known fact that the educated were mostly the clergy, elite, and the merchant class. No different in the United States or in China or Japan.

La educación en Filipinas (http://www.seacex.es/documentos/imag_colonial_12_educacion.pdf)

:)

---

PUBLIC EDUCATION DURING THE 19TH CENTURY ON A COMPARATIVE BASIS
Fernando Nakpil-Ziálcita has M.A. in Philosophy from Ateneo de Manila University, and an M.A. and a Ph.D. in Anthropology from the University of Hawaii. Dr. Zialcita teaches at the Department of Sociology and Anthropology at the Loyola Schools, Ateneo de Manila University, and heads the Cultural Heritage Studies Program at the same.

It is often said today that Spain kept the Filipinos ignorant during much of its rule, and that we owe our mass, public schooling to the US. How true is this claim?


1. Today we assume that the provision of public schooling is a duty of every State. But., like many things we take for granted today, this was in fact a 19TH CENTURY INVENTION. Just likely the telegraph, the railroad, liberal democracy and socialist ideals. Certainly in the US, as this entry suggests, it begins to appear only during the first decades of the 19th century and becomes widespread in many states only later -- during the 2nd half of that century.

http://www.history.com/encyclopedia.do?articleId=208260
http://kclibrary.nhmccd.edu/19thcentury1800.htm

2. In France, then the vanguard of Europe, public education becomes mandatory under the Guizot Law of 1833.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3686/is_200104/ai_n8934806/pg_21
http://hypo.ge-dip.etat-ge.ch/www/cliotexte/html/instruction.19e.siecle.html

3. But who should control the schools: the Church or the State? In France, Spain and other Catholic countries, the battle between the Church and the State was bitter. It was only during the Third Republic in France at the close of the 19th century, that the republican forces were able to push for a wholly secular educational system.

http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/context/19_siecle/chrono_19.htm

4. What was the situation like in the Philippines during the 19th century? Jean Mallat lived in the Philippines for 8 years. In his 2 volume 1846 book, “The Philippines”, he wrote, “In the Philippines, the education of sons of the country as well as of mestizos and indios of both sexes is not as neglected as certain persons claim. On the contrary, the colony has from the start made the greatest effort for the education of the people. Even in the smallest villages, indios find facilities for learning to read and write; everywhere there are primary schools paid by the pueblo…the education of the indios is far from backward, if compared to that of the lower classes in Europe.”


5. In 1863, public education became mandatory in Spanish Philippines. Every sizeable municipality was required to set up a public school. The German scientist Fedor Jagor observed in his 1873 book, “Travels in the Philippines”, that almost every pueblo did have a school.


6. How good were the facilities? Mallat observes that “Rather well furnished libraries exist in all convents and those of the university and colleges offer resources to pupils receiving education in these establishments.” But we can be sure that then as NOW, many schools in the provincial towns did not have adequate libraries, if at all. Small wonder that the Swedish economist Gunnar Myrdal in his review of public education in 19th century Asia in “The Asian Drama” (1968), singles out Japan and the Philippines for their governments’ commitment.


7. Who controlled the schools? Not surprisingly there was a fierce battle for control of the public schools. The quarrel between Ibarra and the parish priest about the public school in the fictitious town of San Diego in Rizal’s “Noli Me Tangere” (1887) was a microcosm of a larger battle. Initially the religious seem to have won the opening round. A Normal School was set up in Manila to train the public school teachers. But guess who trained them? The Jesuits.


8. How good was the classroom instruction? From my 21st century vantage point, I would say “Dreadful.” Rote learning, submission to the teacher’s authority, the heavy use of corporal punishment: these seemed to have characterized classroom instruction in the Philippines. But was this typical only of Spanish Philippines? Certainly not! Read the novels of Charles Dickens, whose setting is the 19th century, and observe how schoolmasters terrorized their students. A few weeks ago, the French Tele5 showed a film on the life of a woman who revolutionized instruction in 19th century France by instilling confidence in her young students instead of humiliating them in public. A teacher who substituted for her forbade one young student from going to the rest room. He ended up defecating in his pants.


9. I suspect the quality of instruction in Manila colleges then was comparable, not with that of schools in the capital cities of Western Europe, but rather with that of provincial colleges in Spain and France of that period.


10. That the quality was nonetheless laudable shows in that Rizal and his contemporaries, who went to Europe for their higher studies, were able to compete with their peers. Dr. Ariston Bautista, who developed paregoric acid as a cure for the initial symptoms of cholera, went to Madrid’s Universidad Central for his medical training. He did well. So did a grand-uncle of mine, Agapito Zialcita who went to Liverpool for training in industrial engineering. And likewise the Luna brothers, Jose Alejandrino, Edilberto Evangelista, etc. During the war with Spain and the US, some of them would put to effective use the engineering skills they had learned.


11. It is not easy to interpret history. Even some professional historians fall into the trap of examining a pattern of behavior in ISOLATION from its historical context. Freedom of speech, freedom to choose for one’s self are all 19th century popularizations. So likewise is the wedding between science-driven technology and manufacture. All these in one way or the other compelled 19th century States – and not earlier -- to examine public education as an obligation.

12. In judging an institution of the past, we should try to read as much as we can of similar institutions in comparable countries of that same period. We should try to understand the social forces that shaped that period. Otherwise our evaluation becomes thoroughly unjust.

Animo, I am properly elucidated by all these quotes. Thank you for taking the trouble of doing this.

Yes, it is true that education was also a concern of the Spanish gov't, but the implementation was very slow. Yes, there were attempts or efforts to educate us. Yes, there were very educated Filipinos during that time but compared to the general population, the number was minuscule, maybe that's why they stood out?!

I am not condemning the Spaniards, I do realize how much they have contributed to our life as a nation. Being colonized has been the fate of our country for the past 500 years. So much so that we are an amalgam of so many cultures.

But I still believe that education during the 300 years of Spanish rule was not given that much attention by the authorities, the better to have us poor and unschooled, perhaps?

I am in favour of Independence but credit should also be given to Spain. Our heroes looked up and loved Liberal Spain and I would also admire the courage of the liberals who took up for reforms under the strict ethics that had co-existed between the Church and the Spanish State. I have to admit that because of the Church's strong control of the islands liberal ideas could not easily be implemented but apart from that the Philippines as a whole was well educated if we compare ourselves with other Asian Kingdoms. If is a well known fact that the educated were mostly the clergy, elite, and the merchant class. No different in the United States or in China or Japan.

La educación en Filipinas (http://www.seacex.es/documentos/imag_colonial_12_educacion.pdf)

:)

---

PUBLIC EDUCATION DURING THE 19TH CENTURY ON A COMPARATIVE BASIS
Fernando Nakpil-Ziálcita has M.A. in Philosophy from Ateneo de Manila University, and an M.A. and a Ph.D. in Anthropology from the University of Hawaii. Dr. Zialcita teaches at the Department of Sociology and Anthropology at the Loyola Schools, Ateneo de Manila University, and heads the Cultural Heritage Studies Program at the same.

It is often said today that Spain kept the Filipinos ignorant during much of its rule, and that we owe our mass, public schooling to the US. How true is this claim?


1. Today we assume that the provision of public schooling is a duty of every State. But., like many things we take for granted today, this was in fact a 19TH CENTURY INVENTION. Just likely the telegraph, the railroad, liberal democracy and socialist ideals. Certainly in the US, as this entry suggests, it begins to appear only during the first decades of the 19th century and becomes widespread in many states only later -- during the 2nd half of that century.

http://www.history.com/encyclopedia.do?articleId=208260
http://kclibrary.nhmccd.edu/19thcentury1800.htm

2. In France, then the vanguard of Europe, public education becomes mandatory under the Guizot Law of 1833.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3686/is_200104/ai_n8934806/pg_21
http://hypo.ge-dip.etat-ge.ch/www/cliotexte/html/instruction.19e.siecle.html

3. But who should control the schools: the Church or the State? In France, Spain and other Catholic countries, the battle between the Church and the State was bitter. It was only during the Third Republic in France at the close of the 19th century, that the republican forces were able to push for a wholly secular educational system.

http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/context/19_siecle/chrono_19.htm

4. What was the situation like in the Philippines during the 19th century? Jean Mallat lived in the Philippines for 8 years. In his 2 volume 1846 book, “The Philippines”, he wrote, “In the Philippines, the education of sons of the country as well as of mestizos and indios of both sexes is not as neglected as certain persons claim. On the contrary, the colony has from the start made the greatest effort for the education of the people. Even in the smallest villages, indios find facilities for learning to read and write; everywhere there are primary schools paid by the pueblo…the education of the indios is far from backward, if compared to that of the lower classes in Europe.”


5. In 1863, public education became mandatory in Spanish Philippines. Every sizeable municipality was required to set up a public school. The German scientist Fedor Jagor observed in his 1873 book, “Travels in the Philippines”, that almost every pueblo did have a school.


6. How good were the facilities? Mallat observes that “Rather well furnished libraries exist in all convents and those of the university and colleges offer resources to pupils receiving education in these establishments.” But we can be sure that then as NOW, many schools in the provincial towns did not have adequate libraries, if at all. Small wonder that the Swedish economist Gunnar Myrdal in his review of public education in 19th century Asia in “The Asian Drama” (1968), singles out Japan and the Philippines for their governments’ commitment.


7. Who controlled the schools? Not surprisingly there was a fierce battle for control of the public schools. The quarrel between Ibarra and the parish priest about the public school in the fictitious town of San Diego in Rizal’s “Noli Me Tangere” (1887) was a microcosm of a larger battle. Initially the religious seem to have won the opening round. A Normal School was set up in Manila to train the public school teachers. But guess who trained them? The Jesuits.


8. How good was the classroom instruction? From my 21st century vantage point, I would say “Dreadful.” Rote learning, submission to the teacher’s authority, the heavy use of corporal punishment: these seemed to have characterized classroom instruction in the Philippines. But was this typical only of Spanish Philippines? Certainly not! Read the novels of Charles Dickens, whose setting is the 19th century, and observe how schoolmasters terrorized their students. A few weeks ago, the French Tele5 showed a film on the life of a woman who revolutionized instruction in 19th century France by instilling confidence in her young students instead of humiliating them in public. A teacher who substituted for her forbade one young student from going to the rest room. He ended up defecating in his pants.


9. I suspect the quality of instruction in Manila colleges then was comparable, not with that of schools in the capital cities of Western Europe, but rather with that of provincial colleges in Spain and France of that period.


10. That the quality was nonetheless laudable shows in that Rizal and his contemporaries, who went to Europe for their higher studies, were able to compete with their peers. Dr. Ariston Bautista, who developed paregoric acid as a cure for the initial symptoms of cholera, went to Madrid’s Universidad Central for his medical training. He did well. So did a grand-uncle of mine, Agapito Zialcita who went to Liverpool for training in industrial engineering. And likewise the Luna brothers, Jose Alejandrino, Edilberto Evangelista, etc. During the war with Spain and the US, some of them would put to effective use the engineering skills they had learned.


11. It is not easy to interpret history. Even some professional historians fall into the trap of examining a pattern of behavior in ISOLATION from its historical context. Freedom of speech, freedom to choose for one’s self are all 19th century popularizations. So likewise is the wedding between science-driven technology and manufacture. All these in one way or the other compelled 19th century States – and not earlier -- to examine public education as an obligation.

12. In judging an institution of the past, we should try to read as much as we can of similar institutions in comparable countries of that same period. We should try to understand the social forces that shaped that period. Otherwise our evaluation becomes thoroughly unjust.

Animo, I am properly elucidated by all these quotes. Thank you for taking the trouble of doing this.

Yes, it is true that education was also a concern of the Spanish gov't, but the implementation was very slow. Yes, there were attempts or efforts to educate us. Yes, there were very educated Filipinos during that time but compared to the general population, the number was minuscule, maybe that's why they stood out?!

I am not condemning the Spaniards, I do realize how much they have contributed to our life as a nation. Being colonized has been the fate of our country for the past 500 years. So much so that we are an amalgam of so many cultures.

But I still believe that education during the 300 years of Spanish rule was not given that much attention by the authorities, the better to have us poor and unschooled, perhaps?

The list has to be sifted. It is unfair for other heroes to be labelled traitors to the mother land. If historical inaccuracy will persist then there'd come a time when these mistakes will be taken as truths.

^^

True, this list still has to be sifted though. I personally do have any information on the names on said list or their actions at the turn of the century but this list came with a list of revolutionaries (anti-Spanish & anti-American) compiled by our clan. I posted it some time ago.

I guess research has to be made on the names list I've given:) I believe that I posted Aguedo Batobalanos name as a voluntarios locales and not necessarily a traitor.... sorry for the confusion, my apologies. Some names on the Royalists were actually on both sides of the fence...

The list has to be sifted. It is unfair for other heroes to be labelled traitors to the mother land. If historical inaccuracy will persist then there'd come a time when these mistakes will be taken as truths.

^^

True, this list still has to be sifted though. I personally do have any information on the names on said list or their actions at the turn of the century but this list came with a list of revolutionaries (anti-Spanish & anti-American) compiled by our clan. I posted it some time ago.

I guess research has to be made on the names list I've given:) I believe that I posted Aguedo Batobalanos name as a voluntarios locales and not necessarily a traitor.... sorry for the confusion, my apologies. Some names on the Royalists were actually on both sides of the fence...

^^

True, this list still has to be sifted though. I personally do have any information on the names on said list or their actions at the turn of the century but this list came with a list of revolutionaries (anti-Spanish & anti-American) compiled by our clan. I posted it some time ago.

I guess research has to be made on the names list I've given:) I believe that I posted Aguedo Batobalanos name as a voluntarios locales and not necessarily a traitor.... sorry for the confusion, my apologies. Some names on the Royalists were actually on both sides of the fence...

It's alright @Harve. The effort of doing the list is even commendable. Thanks. :banana::banana:

^^

True, this list still has to be sifted though. I personally do have any information on the names on said list or their actions at the turn of the century but this list came with a list of revolutionaries (anti-Spanish & anti-American) compiled by our clan. I posted it some time ago.

I guess research has to be made on the names list I've given:) I believe that I posted Aguedo Batobalanos name as a voluntarios locales and not necessarily a traitor.... sorry for the confusion, my apologies. Some names on the Royalists were actually on both sides of the fence...

It's alright @Harve. The effort of doing the list is even commendable. Thanks. :banana::banana:

It's alright @Harve. The effort of doing the list is even commendable. Thanks. :banana::banana:


Thanks :) hehehe speaking of lists... here's the list of Revolutionaries I've mentioned... it's hard tracking down people, this list hasn't been updated in about 15 years.

Here's a repost of the list hehehe Aguedo Batobalanos is on Page 2 :bash:

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/harveharve/IMG_0823.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/harveharve/IMG_0824.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/harveharve/IMG_0825.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/harveharve/IMG_0826.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/harveharve/IMG_0827.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/harveharve/IMG_0828.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/harveharve/IMG_0829.jpg

It's alright @Harve. The effort of doing the list is even commendable. Thanks. :banana::banana:


Thanks :) hehehe speaking of lists... here's the list of Revolutionaries I've mentioned... it's hard tracking down people, this list hasn't been updated in about 15 years.

Here's a repost of the list hehehe Aguedo Batobalanos is on Page 2 :bash:

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/harveharve/IMG_0823.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/harveharve/IMG_0824.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/harveharve/IMG_0825.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/harveharve/IMG_0826.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/harveharve/IMG_0827.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/harveharve/IMG_0828.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/harveharve/IMG_0829.jpg

Wow, great! By the way, why did your clan have to compile a list such as this? Was this part of the 1998 Tres de Abril centennial celebration?

Btw, I have a relative Leoncio Mansueto on the list. He is from Bogo. I'm told he was a writer and was imprisoned at Fort San Pedro.. This tells me that I descended from rebellious writers..

Wow, great! By the way, why did your clan have to compile a list such as this? Was this part of the 1998 Tres de Abril centennial celebration?

Btw, I have a relative Leoncio Mansueto on the list. He is from Bogo. I'm told he was a writer and was imprisoned at Fort San Pedro.. This tells me that I descended from rebellious writers..

If I'm not mistaken, it was indeed compiled for the Tres de Abril centennial, although the list has been in existence years before the centennial and they just forgot about it hehehe :lol: If memory serves, this list was compiled by Boy Quizon (Cuizon), NBI retired hahahaha tracking people is his thing:banana: :lol:

If I'm not mistaken, it was indeed compiled for the Tres de Abril centennial, although the list has been in existence years before the centennial and they just forgot about it hehehe :lol: If memory serves, this list was compiled by Boy Quizon (Cuizon), NBI retired hahahaha tracking people is his thing:banana: :lol:

Originally Posted by harveharve
Here's a short list of known royalists who were either voluntarios locales and/or tenientes del barrios and some spanish priests and traitors:

TRAITORS:

Apolinario Alcuitas (Carcar)
kapitan Florencio Noel (Tan Insyong)
Timoteo Barcenilla
Capitan Kadyo Jaen
Capitan Jacinto Velez
Capitan Simeon Paras
Mariano Alfafara




http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/harveharve/IMG_0829.jpg

Jacinto Velez y Roa was the father of Marcial Velez y Climaco ... if this was the case that the father was listed as traitor and the son as revolutionary then there was a conflict (of interest?) among the members of the Velez family during the revolution. However, during the Philippine-American War, Jacinto sided with the revolutionaries.


Jacinto Velez:

Jacinto was identified as one of the donors of the Gremio de Mestizos remitting money to support the Leales Voluntarios (El Bol de Cebú, 10/11/1896)

D. Jacinto Velez said to be at this time a prisoner in the Kotta; his house was entered to obtain a "registro" but nothing came of it; the Americans are investigating him (El Pueblo, 1/10/1901)

D. Jacinto Velez was recently released from imprisonment by the Americans, and he and his whole family have left for Hong Kong to reside; it seems that the govt may have ordered that he leave the city (El Pueblo, 1/22/1901)

Word has come from Hong Kong that D. Jacinto Velez y Roa died in exile there on 9/22/1901 (El Pueblo, 9/24/1901)


Marcial Velez:

Marcial Velez was appointed "Chief of the Revolutionary forces of the province of Cebu" by E. Aguinaldo; also ordered all leaders of new revolutionary government to respect and carry out all laws and institutions of past Spanish regime (Taylor, 5: 754, #1385; also in PRP/SD, #1809-4 as cited by Ragsdale, 53)

In a letter on 12/24/1898, Marcial Velez answered Emilio Aguinaldo, acknowledging receipt of the communication appointing him "Jefe de la Fuerzas Revolucionarios" in Cebu, which was brought to him by Don Gavino Sepulveda; expressed his unworthiness for position, he stated he will do everything he can to carry out his duties to support "nuestra Republica"; notes that he was informed on 12/21 that the office of "presidente local" would become vacant (PRP/SD, #1809-4, TNL)

"Ug samtang [12/1898] ang mga Katsila nangandam sa pagbiya sa Sugbu gumikan sa `Tratado' sa Paris, si Heneral Luis Flores usab, si Heneral Maxilom ug uban pa, nagpadalag usa ka sulat kang Heneral Montero aron pagpangotana kon dili pa ba siya moampo ug dili ba niya ihatag ang `plaza' kay kon dili manugbong ang tanang manggugubut aron paggubat. Ang sulat sa mga manggugubut giduso ni Montero kang Don Pablo Mejia nga mao ang Gobernador sa Sugbu niadtong mga adlawa ug si Don Pablo maoy miangkon sa pakigsabut sa mga manggugubut aron walay dugo nga moagas./ Ang Obispo usab sa Sugbu kanhi, Pray Martin Alcocer, nagpadalag sulat kang Heneral Flores didto sa Sudlon ug ang nagdala mao si anhing Marcial Velez. Ang tuyo sa Obispo nga walay kamatay nga mahitabo inigsulod sa mga manggugubut dinhi. Sin Heneral Flores nagsulat usab kang Don Pablo Mejia nga siya makigsulti sa mga tinugyanan sa Gobierno ug adto siya tagboa sa lungsod sa Talisay. Tuod man: miadto sa Talisay si Don Pablo, kinuyogan sa iyang anak Teofilo Mejia, Antonio B. Ruiz, ug uban pang sinaligan ni Don Pablo. Dinhi nagkatagbo sila si Heneral Maxilom ug gihimo dayon ang maayong sabut sa pagsulod sa dakbayan."/ (Salin sa Kagubut, "Kinsa ang Unang Gobernador Pilipinhon sa Sugbo?" Bag-ong Kusog, 12/25/1930: 12, 40)

Marcial Velez: former Delegado de Policia of Cebu City, and now revolutionary chief, has sent a proclaimation to Cebu City offering 35 pesos to each city policeman who delivers their revolver to the revolutionary forces (El Pueblo, 8/29/1901)

Marcial Velez, the intransigent revolutionary jefe has finally surrendered, being among the recently surrendered forces in Leyte; he should be returning to Cebu City soon (El Pueblo, 7/6/1902)

[special thanks to m. cullinane for the information]

Originally Posted by harveharve
Here's a short list of known royalists who were either voluntarios locales and/or tenientes del barrios and some spanish priests and traitors:

TRAITORS:

Apolinario Alcuitas (Carcar)
kapitan Florencio Noel (Tan Insyong)
Timoteo Barcenilla
Capitan Kadyo Jaen
Capitan Jacinto Velez
Capitan Simeon Paras
Mariano Alfafara




http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/harveharve/IMG_0829.jpg

Jacinto Velez y Roa was the father of Marcial Velez y Climaco ... if this was the case that the father was listed as traitor and the son as revolutionary then there was a conflict (of interest?) among the members of the Velez family during the revolution. However, during the Philippine-American War, Jacinto sided with the revolutionaries.


Jacinto Velez:

Jacinto was identified as one of the donors of the Gremio de Mestizos remitting money to support the Leales Voluntarios (El Bol de Cebú, 10/11/1896)

D. Jacinto Velez said to be at this time a prisoner in the Kotta; his house was entered to obtain a "registro" but nothing came of it; the Americans are investigating him (El Pueblo, 1/10/1901)

D. Jacinto Velez was recently released from imprisonment by the Americans, and he and his whole family have left for Hong Kong to reside; it seems that the govt may have ordered that he leave the city (El Pueblo, 1/22/1901)

Word has come from Hong Kong that D. Jacinto Velez y Roa died in exile there on 9/22/1901 (El Pueblo, 9/24/1901)


Marcial Velez:

Marcial Velez was appointed "Chief of the Revolutionary forces of the province of Cebu" by E. Aguinaldo; also ordered all leaders of new revolutionary government to respect and carry out all laws and institutions of past Spanish regime (Taylor, 5: 754, #1385; also in PRP/SD, #1809-4 as cited by Ragsdale, 53)

In a letter on 12/24/1898, Marcial Velez answered Emilio Aguinaldo, acknowledging receipt of the communication appointing him "Jefe de la Fuerzas Revolucionarios" in Cebu, which was brought to him by Don Gavino Sepulveda; expressed his unworthiness for position, he stated he will do everything he can to carry out his duties to support "nuestra Republica"; notes that he was informed on 12/21 that the office of "presidente local" would become vacant (PRP/SD, #1809-4, TNL)

"Ug samtang [12/1898] ang mga Katsila nangandam sa pagbiya sa Sugbu gumikan sa `Tratado' sa Paris, si Heneral Luis Flores usab, si Heneral Maxilom ug uban pa, nagpadalag usa ka sulat kang Heneral Montero aron pagpangotana kon dili pa ba siya moampo ug dili ba niya ihatag ang `plaza' kay kon dili manugbong ang tanang manggugubut aron paggubat. Ang sulat sa mga manggugubut giduso ni Montero kang Don Pablo Mejia nga mao ang Gobernador sa Sugbu niadtong mga adlawa ug si Don Pablo maoy miangkon sa pakigsabut sa mga manggugubut aron walay dugo nga moagas./ Ang Obispo usab sa Sugbu kanhi, Pray Martin Alcocer, nagpadalag sulat kang Heneral Flores didto sa Sudlon ug ang nagdala mao si anhing Marcial Velez. Ang tuyo sa Obispo nga walay kamatay nga mahitabo inigsulod sa mga manggugubut dinhi. Sin Heneral Flores nagsulat usab kang Don Pablo Mejia nga siya makigsulti sa mga tinugyanan sa Gobierno ug adto siya tagboa sa lungsod sa Talisay. Tuod man: miadto sa Talisay si Don Pablo, kinuyogan sa iyang anak Teofilo Mejia, Antonio B. Ruiz, ug uban pang sinaligan ni Don Pablo. Dinhi nagkatagbo sila si Heneral Maxilom ug gihimo dayon ang maayong sabut sa pagsulod sa dakbayan."/ (Salin sa Kagubut, "Kinsa ang Unang Gobernador Pilipinhon sa Sugbo?" Bag-ong Kusog, 12/25/1930: 12, 40)

Marcial Velez: former Delegado de Policia of Cebu City, and now revolutionary chief, has sent a proclaimation to Cebu City offering 35 pesos to each city policeman who delivers their revolver to the revolutionary forces (El Pueblo, 8/29/1901)

Marcial Velez, the intransigent revolutionary jefe has finally surrendered, being among the recently surrendered forces in Leyte; he should be returning to Cebu City soon (El Pueblo, 7/6/1902)

[special thanks to m. cullinane for the information]

Jacinto Velez y Roa was the father of Marcial Velez y Climaco ... if this was the case that the father was listed as traitor and the son as revolutionary then there was a conflict (of interest?) among the members of the Velez family during the revolution. However, during the Philippine-American War, Jacinto sided with the revolutionaries.

Hey! thank you for the information! :) All I have is the list and a few biographies of the revolutionaries... I'm adding this info to my journal :banana:

Wow, great! By the way, why did your clan have to compile a list such as this? Was this part of the 1998 Tres de Abril centennial celebration?

Btw, I have a relative Leoncio Mansueto on the list. He is from Bogo. I'm told he was a writer and was imprisoned at Fort San Pedro.. This tells me that I descended from rebellious writers..

Hehehehe :lol: My relatives were playing on both sides on the chessboard:nuts: and were actually divided during the revolution when the hostilities began, some sided with the Royalists while others, like Rufo Abella and others sided with the revolutionaries and served under Pantaleon Villegas' V. Rama party headed by Eugenio Gines and Francisco Llamas

Some of the lessor known Royalists from the Abella families in San Nicolas and Labangon eventually sided with the anti-Americans.

From what I've heard and read about, most families were indeed divided during the revolution... some opted to join the KKK while others remained as Royalists... as for conflict of interests, I figure it was a common occurrence among the members of the revolutionaries.

Jacinto Velez y Roa was the father of Marcial Velez y Climaco ... if this was the case that the father was listed as traitor and the son as revolutionary then there was a conflict (of interest?) among the members of the Velez family during the revolution. However, during the Philippine-American War, Jacinto sided with the revolutionaries.

Hey! thank you for the information! :) All I have is the list and a few biographies of the revolutionaries... I'm adding this info to my journal :banana:

Wow, great! By the way, why did your clan have to compile a list such as this? Was this part of the 1998 Tres de Abril centennial celebration?

Btw, I have a relative Leoncio Mansueto on the list. He is from Bogo. I'm told he was a writer and was imprisoned at Fort San Pedro.. This tells me that I descended from rebellious writers..

Hehehehe :lol: My relatives were playing on both sides on the chessboard:nuts: and were actually divided during the revolution when the hostilities began, some sided with the Royalists while others, like Rufo Abella and others sided with the revolutionaries and served under Pantaleon Villegas' V. Rama party headed by Eugenio Gines and Francisco Llamas

Some of the lessor known Royalists from the Abella families in San Nicolas and Labangon eventually sided with the anti-Americans.

From what I've heard and read about, most families were indeed divided during the revolution... some opted to join the KKK while others remained as Royalists... as for conflict of interests, I figure it was a common occurrence among the members of the revolutionaries.

On page 6 of the list one can find the name Telesforo Salguero. He was the Chief Warden of the Carcel... in all actuality, he was a member of the Katipunan! He let the prisoners out when Llamas, Hernandez and Abellar came to liberate the prisoners.

On page 6 of the list one can find the name Telesforo Salguero. He was the Chief Warden of the Carcel... in all actuality, he was a member of the Katipunan! He let the prisoners out when Llamas, Hernandez and Abellar came to liberate the prisoners.

Maritime museum in Cebu?
By Jobers Bersales
Cebu Daily News


Filed Under: Libraries & Museums
I distinctly remember wishing for the conversion of Compania Maritima into a maritime museum. This past week I got involved in a frenzied exchange of exciting emails between a Cebuana based in Paris and a Tagala with Cebuano roots based in Manila. The subject: the possibility of laying down the groundwork for the establishment of this long-sought maritime museum in Cebu.

Marina Yap Larioui, head of member services of the International Council of Museums (ICOM), and Gina Barte, president of the Philippine Association of Museums Inc., are all out for the rehabilitation of the Maritima building now sitting idly by the entrance to the South Coastal Road Subway under construction beneath Plaza Independencia.

I remember a private meeting with Cebu City Vice Mayor (now acting mayor) Mike Rama at a café about two years back where I proposed to him the possibilities of converting the building into a museum to celebrate the nation’s great maritime traditions and the modern shipping industry that is largely led by Cebuano families. His reaction then was very positive and he even proffered approaching benefactors to help in financing the project.

If my memory serves me right, the ownership of the building was already transferred by President Gloria Arroyo from the Department of Environment and Natural Resources to the city of Cebu last year, amidst noise that this would indeed be turned into a maritime museum.

I wonder if these plans are still in the works. Whatever the case, private sector initiatives have to be ascertained this early and I am glad that Marina (whose family hails from Bogo) and her long-lost cousin and Gina are trying to tap the their networks to ensure that this dream will begin to inch forward into reality – and soon. Gina herself is willing to donate an old native trading boat she recovered from her seaside property in Luzon that is now displayed there waiting for the maritime museum.

Among the plans in the works is to contact the great shipping families, as well as August Go, the major player in the education of seafarers in the country today via the University of Cebu. Gina and Marina, whose travels abroad in connection with museum work have brought them to the best of maritime museums, know that the perfect place to set up this museum is Cebu, right at the heart of a republic divided by seas, where the pioneering families of inter-island shipping continue to reside.

As with all who want to start a museum, the first thing to do is to inventory what resources and objects to display – other than the building – are available. I hope the coming meetings with these shipping magnates or their heirs will push through and, more importantly, that they will see merit to this proposal.

All the great cities with equally great maritime traditions always have maritime museums to showcase their wealth of history, nostalgia and memory. It is time for Cebu to do the same.

http://globalnation.inquirer.net/cebudailynews/opinion/view/20090212-188896/Maritime-museum-in-Cebu

Maritime museum in Cebu?
By Jobers Bersales
Cebu Daily News


Filed Under: Libraries & Museums
I distinctly remember wishing for the conversion of Compania Maritima into a maritime museum. This past week I got involved in a frenzied exchange of exciting emails between a Cebuana based in Paris and a Tagala with Cebuano roots based in Manila. The subject: the possibility of laying down the groundwork for the establishment of this long-sought maritime museum in Cebu.

Marina Yap Larioui, head of member services of the International Council of Museums (ICOM), and Gina Barte, president of the Philippine Association of Museums Inc., are all out for the rehabilitation of the Maritima building now sitting idly by the entrance to the South Coastal Road Subway under construction beneath Plaza Independencia.

I remember a private meeting with Cebu City Vice Mayor (now acting mayor) Mike Rama at a café about two years back where I proposed to him the possibilities of converting the building into a museum to celebrate the nation’s great maritime traditions and the modern shipping industry that is largely led by Cebuano families. His reaction then was very positive and he even proffered approaching benefactors to help in financing the project.

If my memory serves me right, the ownership of the building was already transferred by President Gloria Arroyo from the Department of Environment and Natural Resources to the city of Cebu last year, amidst noise that this would indeed be turned into a maritime museum.

I wonder if these plans are still in the works. Whatever the case, private sector initiatives have to be ascertained this early and I am glad that Marina (whose family hails from Bogo) and her long-lost cousin and Gina are trying to tap the their networks to ensure that this dream will begin to inch forward into reality – and soon. Gina herself is willing to donate an old native trading boat she recovered from her seaside property in Luzon that is now displayed there waiting for the maritime museum.

Among the plans in the works is to contact the great shipping families, as well as August Go, the major player in the education of seafarers in the country today via the University of Cebu. Gina and Marina, whose travels abroad in connection with museum work have brought them to the best of maritime museums, know that the perfect place to set up this museum is Cebu, right at the heart of a republic divided by seas, where the pioneering families of inter-island shipping continue to reside.

As with all who want to start a museum, the first thing to do is to inventory what resources and objects to display – other than the building – are available. I hope the coming meetings with these shipping magnates or their heirs will push through and, more importantly, that they will see merit to this proposal.

All the great cities with equally great maritime traditions always have maritime museums to showcase their wealth of history, nostalgia and memory. It is time for Cebu to do the same.

http://globalnation.inquirer.net/cebudailynews/opinion/view/20090212-188896/Maritime-museum-in-Cebu

Animo, I am properly elucidated by all these quotes. Thank you for taking the trouble of doing this.

Yes, it is true that education was also a concern of the Spanish gov't, but the implementation was very slow. Yes, there were attempts or efforts to educate us. Yes, there were very educated Filipinos during that time but compared to the general population, the number was minuscule, maybe that's why they stood out?!

I am not condemning the Spaniards, I do realize how much they have contributed to our life as a nation. Being colonized has been the fate of our country for the past 500 years. So much so that we are an amalgam of so many cultures.

But I still believe that education during the 300 years of Spanish rule was not given that much attention by the authorities, the better to have us poor and unschooled, perhaps?

Well let's not forget that what forced general public education to the masses? The Industrial Revolution. The forefront of industrialization was Great Britain and her former colony the United States was also pretty much behind her.

The same experiences happened in colonial United States and even in Europe. The poor were not give the right for higher education because it was seen as mostly for the rich and the emerging merchant class. I have not seen any historical data that states that education was a priority by the British colonial system for the common folks. I know that education became important when the system of apprentice no longer existed and it was replaced by factories and mechanism that required people to be educated for it to work. The consequence of this eliminated child labour and helped establish the concept of public education. Ideally, the United States is more industrialized compared to Imperial Spain and the Philippine colony during that time of the Pacific conquest.

Yes, American system were introduced and education greatly improved just because during that time public education was widely practiced as a vanguard for industrialization and modernization. The United States wanted to disassociate itself from the Old World (Europe). Hence, education was a useful factor for "colonization". Just my point of view.

:)

Animo, I am properly elucidated by all these quotes. Thank you for taking the trouble of doing this.

Yes, it is true that education was also a concern of the Spanish gov't, but the implementation was very slow. Yes, there were attempts or efforts to educate us. Yes, there were very educated Filipinos during that time but compared to the general population, the number was minuscule, maybe that's why they stood out?!

I am not condemning the Spaniards, I do realize how much they have contributed to our life as a nation. Being colonized has been the fate of our country for the past 500 years. So much so that we are an amalgam of so many cultures.

But I still believe that education during the 300 years of Spanish rule was not given that much attention by the authorities, the better to have us poor and unschooled, perhaps?

Well let's not forget that what forced general public education to the masses? The Industrial Revolution. The forefront of industrialization was Great Britain and her former colony the United States was also pretty much behind her.

The same experiences happened in colonial United States and even in Europe. The poor were not give the right for higher education because it was seen as mostly for the rich and the emerging merchant class. I have not seen any historical data that states that education was a priority by the British colonial system for the common folks. I know that education became important when the system of apprentice no longer existed and it was replaced by factories and mechanism that required people to be educated for it to work. The consequence of this eliminated child labour and helped establish the concept of public education. Ideally, the United States is more industrialized compared to Imperial Spain and the Philippine colony during that time of the Pacific conquest.

Yes, American system were introduced and education greatly improved just because during that time public education was widely practiced as a vanguard for industrialization and modernization. The United States wanted to disassociate itself from the Old World (Europe). Hence, education was a useful factor for "colonization". Just my point of view.

:)

:cheers: HAPPY BIRTHDAY @archaeologue!!!!

:cheers: HAPPY BIRTHDAY @archaeologue!!!!

It's the birthday of our respected Archeologue?

Happy Birthday, Sir....:cheers:

It's the birthday of our respected Archeologue?

Happy Birthday, Sir....:cheers:

It's the birthday of our respected Archeologue?

Happy Birthday, Sir....:cheers:

feeling old kaayo nang "respected Archaeologue" ha heheeh...but thanks from the bottom of my heart...:cheers:


let's do the same to Ang Karaang Tawo and Ang Bantayanon on their brithdays also ha. They are my age group baya, give and take 15 years between them! lolzz...


it's a practice in our family to give gifts on your birthday. so, my gift to everyone are these photos from the Album Conmemorativo of the 1909 Consecration of Juan Gorordo as the first Cebuano and Filipino Bishop of Cebu:



http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/jbersales/TitlepageofAlbumConmemorativo.jpg

The title page. It's a 100 year-old book now! Thanks to the late Sen. Vicente Rama for keeping what is probably the only copy left in Cebu.




http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/jbersales/ArrivalofGorordoatCathedral1909June.jpg

The mass of people gathered during Bishop Gorordo's arrival at the Cathedral for the ceremony on 24 June 1909. The belfry is still missing its clock at this time i think.




http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/jbersales/CebuCathedralnaveduringGorodoinstal.jpg

The Cathedral nave during the installation rites.


http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/jbersales/MsgrGorordoinstallationatCebuCathed.jpg

Bishop Gorordo at the center of it all.



http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/jbersales/MsgrGorodoprocession1909low.jpg

A civic procession a day after the elevation ceremonies.

It's the birthday of our respected Archeologue?

Happy Birthday, Sir....:cheers:

feeling old kaayo nang "respected Archaeologue" ha heheeh...but thanks from the bottom of my heart...:cheers:


let's do the same to Ang Karaang Tawo and Ang Bantayanon on their brithdays also ha. They are my age group baya, give and take 15 years between them! lolzz...


it's a practice in our family to give gifts on your birthday. so, my gift to everyone are these photos from the Album Conmemorativo of the 1909 Consecration of Juan Gorordo as the first Cebuano and Filipino Bishop of Cebu:



http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/jbersales/TitlepageofAlbumConmemorativo.jpg

The title page. It's a 100 year-old book now! Thanks to the late Sen. Vicente Rama for keeping what is probably the only copy left in Cebu.




http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/jbersales/ArrivalofGorordoatCathedral1909June.jpg

The mass of people gathered during Bishop Gorordo's arrival at the Cathedral for the ceremony on 24 June 1909. The belfry is still missing its clock at this time i think.




http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/jbersales/CebuCathedralnaveduringGorodoinstal.jpg

The Cathedral nave during the installation rites.


http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/jbersales/MsgrGorordoinstallationatCebuCathed.jpg

Bishop Gorordo at the center of it all.



http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/jbersales/MsgrGorodoprocession1909low.jpg

A civic procession a day after the elevation ceremonies.

^^ happy birthday sir!

para hindi OT

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3069/2928391163_4fbcd5efc0.jpg?v=0

^^ happy birthday sir!

para hindi OT

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3069/2928391163_4fbcd5efc0.jpg?v=0

:cheers: HAPPY BIRTHDAY @archaeologue!!!!


Danke schon, Gee. and also, thanks for the articles.

one more year for me to mature heheheheh!

^^ happy birthday sir!


thanks, Rau. I finally remember you. hahaha. sorry, age is showing.

no more greetings na ha (assuming!) kay mahurot na lang unya ni ang threads unya ako ang mapasanginlan. heheeh...but thanks I really appreciate this.

:cheers: HAPPY BIRTHDAY @archaeologue!!!!


Danke schon, Gee. and also, thanks for the articles.

one more year for me to mature heheheheh!

^^ happy birthday sir!


thanks, Rau. I finally remember you. hahaha. sorry, age is showing.

no more greetings na ha (assuming!) kay mahurot na lang unya ni ang threads unya ako ang mapasanginlan. heheeh...but thanks I really appreciate this.

"hearing" mass, just like the good ol' days...

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7343/sclph212copyya4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1286/sclph212copy2ts8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

"hearing" mass, just like the good ol' days...

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7343/sclph212copyya4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1286/sclph212copy2ts8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

^^ happy birthday sir!

para hindi OT

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3069/2928391163_4fbcd5efc0.jpg?v=0

this is the saint francis of assisi church in balamban, cebu. they've repainted it. nice

^^ happy birthday sir!

para hindi OT

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3069/2928391163_4fbcd5efc0.jpg?v=0

this is the saint francis of assisi church in balamban, cebu. they've repainted it. nice

it's a practice in our family to give gifts on your birthday. so, my gift to everyone are these photos from the Album Conmemorativo of the 1909 Consecration of Juan Gorordo as the first Cebuano and Filipino Bishop of Cebu:




"it's a practice in our family to give gifts on your birthday. so, my gift to everyone are these photos from the Album Conmemorativo of the 1909 "

1909 diay ka na tawo? :old: :)

Bitaw uy, joke lang to.

my warmest best wishes to you May you have more kusog yo continue your good deeds

it's a practice in our family to give gifts on your birthday. so, my gift to everyone are these photos from the Album Conmemorativo of the 1909 Consecration of Juan Gorordo as the first Cebuano and Filipino Bishop of Cebu:




"it's a practice in our family to give gifts on your birthday. so, my gift to everyone are these photos from the Album Conmemorativo of the 1909 "

1909 diay ka na tawo? :old: :)

Bitaw uy, joke lang to.

my warmest best wishes to you May you have more kusog yo continue your good deeds

"hearing" mass, just like the good ol' days...


http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1286/sclph212copy2ts8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


oooiiii wa man ni gi-retouch hahahahah!!!!

"hearing" mass, just like the good ol' days...


http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1286/sclph212copy2ts8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


oooiiii wa man ni gi-retouch hahahahah!!!!

"hearing" mass, just like the good ol' days...

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1286/sclph212copy2ts8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Hala Klaro na gyud ang ebidensya sa edad oi.. di na gyud ni ma-photoshop. Haha! Ngano tua man kas kilid nagtan-aw nga naa man sa atubangan ang pari?

Anyway, Happy Birthday Sir Jojo Bersales! :banana:

"hearing" mass, just like the good ol' days...

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1286/sclph212copy2ts8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Hala Klaro na gyud ang ebidensya sa edad oi.. di na gyud ni ma-photoshop. Haha! Ngano tua man kas kilid nagtan-aw nga naa man sa atubangan ang pari?

Anyway, Happy Birthday Sir Jojo Bersales! :banana:

Danke schon, Gee. and also, thanks for the articles.

one more year for me to mature heheheheh!

.


Sir, 69 pa diay ka ron? So, next year 70 na... so mature na... :banana::banana::banana:

Danke schon, Gee. and also, thanks for the articles.

one more year for me to mature heheheheh!

.


Sir, 69 pa diay ka ron? So, next year 70 na... so mature na... :banana::banana::banana:

Hala Klaro na gyud ang ebidensya sa edad oi.. di na gyud ni ma-photoshop. Haha! Ngano tua man kas kilid nagtan-aw nga naa man sa atubangan ang pari?

Anyway, Happy Birthday Sir Jojo Bersales! :banana:

Kaklaro anang nag-ihap na siya pila ka-tuyok ang palabad sa electric fan kada-segundo...Hehehhehehe


Peace Sir Archaeologue... :)

Hala Klaro na gyud ang ebidensya sa edad oi.. di na gyud ni ma-photoshop. Haha! Ngano tua man kas kilid nagtan-aw nga naa man sa atubangan ang pari?

Anyway, Happy Birthday Sir Jojo Bersales! :banana:

Kaklaro anang nag-ihap na siya pila ka-tuyok ang palabad sa electric fan kada-segundo...Hehehhehehe


Peace Sir Archaeologue... :)

oooiiii wa man ni gi-retouch hahahahah!!!!

Happy Birthday Sir Jobers!:cheers: asang inom? hehehe:lol:

oooiiii wa man ni gi-retouch hahahahah!!!!

Happy Birthday Sir Jobers!:cheers: asang inom? hehehe:lol:

Happy Birthday Sir Jo! Asa ang pakal?

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8671/jobersandmolaqb5.jpg

Happy Birthday Sir Jo! Asa ang pakal?

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8671/jobersandmolaqb5.jpg

Sex and confession
Trizer D. Mansueto

Following the norm of civility (read: Christian behavior taught to us by the Spaniards), some of us Filipinos today still don’t discuss about sex openly. In fact, when mature persons talk about sex, it still elicits giggling and silly laughter. In this modern day and age, some still use signs and euphemism when talking about it like one childish example of a bee visiting a flower; the uncouth would prefer to use foreign words rather than saying the local word (which I will leave to one’s imagination) because it is vulgar and revolting to the listener.

Sex is very much part of society and there’s just no denying that you and I wouldn’t be here today without it. It may be hypocritical of us not to talk about it but our continued refusal to do so is actually a result of our historical process – our experience under convent-style ultraconservatism.

Sex and the early Bisayans

The early Bisayans had a different concept of morality at the start. When the Spaniards first arrived in Cebu, for instance, Antonio de Pigafetta, the Italian chronicler of Magellan’s expedition didn’t quite believe what he saw: “The males large and small have their penis pierced from one side to the other near the head, with a gold or tin bolt as large as a goose quilt.” It would seem that it was the first time that a European saw such sexual implement.

With his curiosity piqued, Pigafetta investigated further: “I very often asked many both young and old to see their penis because it could not credit it. In the middle of the bolt is a hole through which they urinate…” Acting like a true anthropologist continued to probe: “women wish it so, and that if they did otherwise, they would not have communication (read: sexual intercourse) with them…”

The sensibilities of the members of the expedition may have been challenged by the strange practice of the early Cebuanos, and even modern readers today, as Pigafetta left us with these words: “All of the women ranging from the age of six years have their vaginas opened because of their men’s penises.”

In the later part of Spanish conquest, the friars, the guardians of “morality” did their best to stamp out this practice which they labeled as the “invention of the devil.”

Sex was not frowned upon by early Bisayans. It came natural for them. In his Relacion de las Yslas Filipinas, Miguel de Loarca tells us that men were “not concerned whether their wives are virgins or not.” This is further supported by the statement that there: “were also men whose occupation was to break in or devirginize the maidens,” and hold your breath, “were held in regard and paid for their services, on the theory that when men married virgins, they would not have to bother themselves with overcoming their bride’s maidenhood.”

Confession and hell

After many years of conquest with the sword and the cross, the great abandon to carnal pleasure was restrained and the Bisayan (Filipino) soon also took on convent-style conservatism, due to the preaching of the friars.

And who wouldn’t bow down to the mighty man-of-the-cloth? The threat of burning in hell frightened the native. The friar often succeeded in making the ignorant native bare his soul in the Sacrament of Confession. Historian Vicente L. Rafael in his book Contracting Colonialism provides us an idea how a confession-cum-witch-hunt was done by translating an earlier work by the Franciscan Padre Sebastian Totanes on the administration of the sacraments:

“366. How many times did you see her?
367. You tell me that you always saw each other alone; well, then, how do you expect me to know how many times those were?
368. If you can’t tell me the exact number of times, give me a rough estimate…
369. And if you can’t tell me this, tell me how many years, or months, or weeks, or days has it been since you started sinning with her.
370. And during this entire period, how many times a week did you sin with her? Was it every day, or every other day, or what?
371. And aside from all those times you slept together, didn’t you on other days and hours also cavort and play around in a wanton manner?
372. And during those moments of playing around, didn’t you at times just verbally joke around, and at other times embrace each other, and kiss each other, and touch each other, touching every single part of your bodies without reserve?

And the priestly interrogation went on:
373 And did something dirty come out of your body?
374. And did you cause her to emit something dirty, too?”

Profusely sweating and feeling uncomfortable, the ignorant native’s eyes wandered around the old church’s ceiling paintings and stopped on a portion which portrayed souls of naked men and women simmering in the fires of hell, as if crying for help. Then fear overtook him.

Heritage Page
Cebu Daily News
14 Feb. 2009

***

Happy Hearts' Day everyone!

Sex and confession
Trizer D. Mansueto

Following the norm of civility (read: Christian behavior taught to us by the Spaniards), some of us Filipinos today still don’t discuss about sex openly. In fact, when mature persons talk about sex, it still elicits giggling and silly laughter. In this modern day and age, some still use signs and euphemism when talking about it like one childish example of a bee visiting a flower; the uncouth would prefer to use foreign words rather than saying the local word (which I will leave to one’s imagination) because it is vulgar and revolting to the listener.

Sex is very much part of society and there’s just no denying that you and I wouldn’t be here today without it. It may be hypocritical of us not to talk about it but our continued refusal to do so is actually a result of our historical process – our experience under convent-style ultraconservatism.

Sex and the early Bisayans

The early Bisayans had a different concept of morality at the start. When the Spaniards first arrived in Cebu, for instance, Antonio de Pigafetta, the Italian chronicler of Magellan’s expedition didn’t quite believe what he saw: “The males large and small have their penis pierced from one side to the other near the head, with a gold or tin bolt as large as a goose quilt.” It would seem that it was the first time that a European saw such sexual implement.

With his curiosity piqued, Pigafetta investigated further: “I very often asked many both young and old to see their penis because it could not credit it. In the middle of the bolt is a hole through which they urinate…” Acting like a true anthropologist continued to probe: “women wish it so, and that if they did otherwise, they would not have communication (read: sexual intercourse) with them…”

The sensibilities of the members of the expedition may have been challenged by the strange practice of the early Cebuanos, and even modern readers today, as Pigafetta left us with these words: “All of the women ranging from the age of six years have their vaginas opened because of their men’s penises.”

In the later part of Spanish conquest, the friars, the guardians of “morality” did their best to stamp out this practice which they labeled as the “invention of the devil.”

Sex was not frowned upon by early Bisayans. It came natural for them. In his Relacion de las Yslas Filipinas, Miguel de Loarca tells us that men were “not concerned whether their wives are virgins or not.” This is further supported by the statement that there: “were also men whose occupation was to break in or devirginize the maidens,” and hold your breath, “were held in regard and paid for their services, on the theory that when men married virgins, they would not have to bother themselves with overcoming their bride’s maidenhood.”

Confession and hell

After many years of conquest with the sword and the cross, the great abandon to carnal pleasure was restrained and the Bisayan (Filipino) soon also took on convent-style conservatism, due to the preaching of the friars.

And who wouldn’t bow down to the mighty man-of-the-cloth? The threat of burning in hell frightened the native. The friar often succeeded in making the ignorant native bare his soul in the Sacrament of Confession. Historian Vicente L. Rafael in his book Contracting Colonialism provides us an idea how a confession-cum-witch-hunt was done by translating an earlier work by the Franciscan Padre Sebastian Totanes on the administration of the sacraments:

“366. How many times did you see her?
367. You tell me that you always saw each other alone; well, then, how do you expect me to know how many times those were?
368. If you can’t tell me the exact number of times, give me a rough estimate…
369. And if you can’t tell me this, tell me how many years, or months, or weeks, or days has it been since you started sinning with her.
370. And during this entire period, how many times a week did you sin with her? Was it every day, or every other day, or what?
371. And aside from all those times you slept together, didn’t you on other days and hours also cavort and play around in a wanton manner?
372. And during those moments of playing around, didn’t you at times just verbally joke around, and at other times embrace each other, and kiss each other, and touch each other, touching every single part of your bodies without reserve?

And the priestly interrogation went on:
373 And did something dirty come out of your body?
374. And did you cause her to emit something dirty, too?”

Profusely sweating and feeling uncomfortable, the ignorant native’s eyes wandered around the old church’s ceiling paintings and stopped on a portion which portrayed souls of naked men and women simmering in the fires of hell, as if crying for help. Then fear overtook him.

Heritage Page
Cebu Daily News
14 Feb. 2009

***

Happy Hearts' Day everyone!

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/harveharve/IMG_0380.jpg
Happy Valentine's Day! A few more hours to go before the Lantern Festival! hahaha

Is it just me or does the belfry of the old recollect church look a bit like that in talisay... except for a few minor details...

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/harveharve/SCL-PH216.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/harveharve/talisaycebupresent.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/harveharve/IMG_0380.jpg
Happy Valentine's Day! A few more hours to go before the Lantern Festival! hahaha

Is it just me or does the belfry of the old recollect church look a bit like that in talisay... except for a few minor details...

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/harveharve/SCL-PH216.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/harveharve/talisaycebupresent.jpg

Sir, 69 pa diay ka ron? So, next year 70 na... so mature na... :banana::banana::banana:

haha...kabastos pod anang edara oi...joke!

i'm 44 in the Gregorian calendar but 36 in the pre-Hispanic calendar based on the agricultural cycle and the lunar cycle i think.

here's to more hair next year! hahahahah! para di na ko magpabilin nga naa pay hubon! hahah

:cheers:

Sir, 69 pa diay ka ron? So, next year 70 na... so mature na... :banana::banana::banana:

haha...kabastos pod anang edara oi...joke!

i'm 44 in the Gregorian calendar but 36 in the pre-Hispanic calendar based on the agricultural cycle and the lunar cycle i think.

here's to more hair next year! hahahahah! para di na ko magpabilin nga naa pay hubon! hahah

:cheers:

Happy Birthday Sir Jo! Asa ang pakal?

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8671/jobersandmolaqb5.jpg

Ang pakal? well, we just ate this horse! sorry i fogot to invite you all!!! hahahaha!

nakuyawan ang horse nakakita sa akong hubon! siga gud ang mata!

thanks for this photo, Gibb, i look more like a Native American than a Filipino---well except for the nose hahahah!


:bash:

Happy Birthday Sir Jo! Asa ang pakal?

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8671/jobersandmolaqb5.jpg

Ang pakal? well, we just ate this horse! sorry i fogot to invite you all!!! hahahaha!

nakuyawan ang horse nakakita sa akong hubon! siga gud ang mata!

thanks for this photo, Gibb, i look more like a Native American than a Filipino---well except for the nose hahahah!


:bash: