I lived in Orlando for 9 years and now Tampa for about 10 years. I can't get past the contrast between the two Mid-Florida metros. I don’t understand why Tampa can't spruce up and have a much better appearance than it does. Yeah I know Tampa is a port city and Orlando has Disney. But I think it goes beyond that simplistic explanation. In Tampa, there is a different attitude and expectation of how things should look and be. People don't seem to care too much about aesthetics here. Streetscape projects are almost non-existent. For example Busch Blvd, one of the gateways to the major tourist attraction, has a rundown industrial look and somewhat trashed look. This would never do around attractions in Orlando. Much of the USF area is the same as Busch. Nebraska Ave is downright depressing. Even 56th/50th street is trashed. Orlando has industrial areas too, but to my knowledge they don't look as bad as Tampa's. Even the supposedly upscale South Tampa is only 20% upscale the rest is definitely not. The well-known Westshore Blvd south of Azeele Street looks like small-town Florida. Dale Mabry, Kennedy, Florida, Waters, Sligh, Columbus, Armenia, Adamo ,… the corridor list could go on and on for areas that need help. Pinellas doesn’t look much better from what I have seen. I have seen a few unkempt places in Orlando. However, for the most part, the greater Orlando metro government’s cares about aesthetics and appearances. I don’t think it’s totally unfair to compare. Tampa Bay has a lot of potential to do better. Does anyone have an opinion about the perceived contrast?

With sooo many tourists that visit Orlando every year, I think the city must present itself in a clean and inviting appearance in order to cast a more positive image.

Tampa and St. Pete have been large cities much longer than Orlando has; almost everything in Orlando has been built in the last 40 years. I frankly don't care for the "plastic" look in Orlando. I prefer my cities to at least have a little bit of grunge.

just because it's old doesn't mean it has to look "blighted". Go to just about anywhere in California, and compare it to older places in Florida. San Fran has been a major metro for at least as long as Tampa, and their streetscapes and overall appearance is very nice.
I don't think it's a "plastic" look, I think it's just an overall pride in appearance. Of course, Orlando does have the advantage of being newer which is why it may seem plastic.
I just dont see the point of associating a well kempt appearance with plastic or fakeness. Grit looks good in some urban areas, for the most part it just looks trashy in the burbs.

San Francisco is a beautiful city but it is definitely not a clean city.

I think Orlando has just as much grime as Tampa. It is just hidden a little better. Ever go near the Citrus Bowl?

Orlando definitely looks better from the highways. I have always noticed that I-4 through Orlando was well kept and attactive. For some reason Tampa has not invested in cleaning up the highways or routes into and through the city. Although the city is now adding medians and trying to beautify areas...Kennedy for example. One thing that I think contributed to Tampa's grungy look is the fact that I-4 and I-275 cut the old neighborhoods in half many years ago. It has taken decades for them to make a rebound.

Yeah, I was about to bring up OBT and the John Young Parkway area as well. Outside of the International Drive tourist area, both of these metros are very similar, in regards to overall "looks". The major difference being Tampa's expressways sliced through what was a decent sized dense older urban area at the time, while I-4 was built prior to Orlando's boom.

^John Young Parkway has undergone extensive landscaping/sidewalk improvements this year. Aside from I-Drive/tourist corridor, downtown is also very well maintained as well as its surrounding neighborhoods.

I don't see how keeping up a positive appearance with regards to streetscaping is "plastic" in any way whatsoever. Boston is one of the oldest US cities and quite possibly the cleanest. It wasn't always this way (prior to Mayor Menino). Tampa should definitely place more emphasis on cleanliness. Miami could be another example to Tampa closer to home.

:cheers: Its because we are hood rich!

^John Young Parkway has undergone extensive landscaping/sidewalk improvements this year. Aside from I-Drive/tourist corridor, downtown is also very well maintained as well as its surrounding neighborhoods.

I don't see how keeping up a positive appearance with regards to streetscaping is "plastic" in any way whatsoever. Boston is one of the oldest US cities and quite possibly the cleanest. It wasn't always this way (prior to Mayor Menino). Tampa should definitely place more emphasis on cleanliness. Miami could be another example to Tampa closer to home.


TRUE SKY :wave: , Miami :cool: is just too Under construction now with over 50 tall towers either under construction, almost completed or just getting started, its a mess and very dusty along the NOW being Redone Biscayne Blvd.
Its just NOT a city for Tourists :bash: Right now.
Brickell :cool: has over 25 of those towers going up over 400 feet tall, with the latest and NOW more improved WEBCAM :righton: on top of the Four Seasons Hotel and Condo Tower LIVE webcam at www.herald.com :bowtie: register for FREE :) , it only takes 2 minutes on your fast speed internet to see all the Under construction towers rising all over Downtown Miami :yes: and Brickell :okay: .

Zooooooooooooommmmmm IN with he webcam, its Great :cheers1:
see all 55 tower construction cranes up and running, Its the second most city in the world with the most tower construction cranes :runaway:

You can actually see the construction workers working hard and so many Cement trucks, Lowboys carrying REBARS, Dump Trucks, pickup trucks and of course Port of Miami cantainer trucks all over Biscayne blvd and Brickell avenue.

ITS A MESS :hm: !!!

and will be for another 6 years :llama: !!!

I say,
Go Cranes :banana: :cheer: :pepper: !!!,
and forget the beauty and cleaness for at least 4 years, lol.

Cleaner cities show that a community has some pride and it's appearance reflects on the progressiveness of the people. It has been the subject of local newspaper articles about how Tampa is not seen as progressive. To me it seems however, that there is little political will to make changes and the people who grew up in Tampa have seen the mess for so long it doesn't appear to be a problem. Not all of Urban Hillsborough is trashed only about 70%. Even Lakeland, FL is starting to make Tampa look bad. Memorial drive which had it's heyday in the 70s is spruced up. Many other Lakeland corridors are being taken care of. Tampa may have been progressive in the 40s, 50s, and 60s but now years and 600,000 people (hillsborough) later it's past time to update and quit living in the deteriorated past.

Tampa and St. Pete have been large cities much longer than Orlando has; almost everything in Orlando has been built in the last 40 years. I frankly don't care for the "plastic" look in Orlando. I prefer my cities to at least have a little bit of grunge.

Well, for pete's sake, don't hang around the theme park area if you don't like 'plastic'.

Tampa/St. Pete suffers from what I call the Miami model, millionaires on the waterfront and trailer park and trashy hoods in the interior. I think Pinellas county has one of the highest numbers of mobile home parks in the country, which generally do not make for aesthetically beautiful neighborhoods and do not pay enough taxes to let the cities do much to help them out.

This thread is a joke right?

Yeah maybe the inrterstates going through I-4 might not be the best, but have you been around the country Tampa is paradise compared to many industrial US cities.. Even now I-4 with it's construction looks darn good now and with the Bay and Bayshore you have to be kidding me with this crap of a thread.. Also our airport and stadium are 2 of the best in the country and the roads around TIA and I-275 are being reconstructed and will only add to Tampa's appeal..

IMO..

^^I don't think this thread is really talking about the highlights of Tampa/St. Pete and how well kept they are. Every large city has something clean and nice. I think they're talking about road median pollution, and deteriated facades or non well kept buildings. Which like or not, Tampa has a good bit of. Then again every large, old and non touristy city has bad parts of it too. Orlando has to be clen because of Tourist and because its a newer city.

well I haven't been to Tampa but a lot of large Florida cities do poorly when it comes to aesthetics......yes most tourists areas look great but I moved to Orlando from Miami and have never seen such a horrible commercial road as East Colonial Drive in Orlando.
There are no sidewalks, horrible zoning and tacky architecture everywhere. The only comparable road I could think of in SE Florida is 441 in southern Broward County.

I don't knoa about you, but downtown St. Pete (including areas north) is actually pretty nice and has some character.

I don't knoa about you, but downtown St. Pete (including areas north) is actually pretty nice and has some character.

DT St. Pete is very nice. US 19 is not.

I could really lay into this thread, but I won't. All I can say is Orlando is what it is. It a attracts a certain type of person. Reality is not something people that live in Orlando are used to. They think the smoke people blow up their azzes continuously is real. In terms of numbers, not opinions, they fail as a city. Unless you need to start out your career.

As for the dirt and grime in Tampa, it is a very industrial city. There is cultural poverty there. There is real, "non manufactured" local culture. There are actual industrial areas, not the sudo area's where clean freight is transfered. Things get fabricated, built, mined, etc in the region. The type of shipping that occurs is dusty, dirty, and gritty. Phosphates and Gypsum, and fuel. Do you like your gasoline Orlando? It is pipelined to your hellhole of a city from Tampa. Do you like you frozen fish at Red Lobster? How about South American produce in your publix stores? All comes through Tampa. Orlando and Tampa is apples and oranges. One produces, one is fluff.

One more thing. There is a little thing called the mob in Tampa BTW. If you want to understand why things the way they are, organized crime is one of them.

I am feeling a little stupider after that last comment. No offense zerobullchip, but there is something tediously dull about your hatred of Orlando, not to mention pointless.

I am feeling a little stupider after that last comment. No offense zerobullchip, but there is something tediously dull about your hatred of Orlando, not to mention pointless.

This whole thread is pointless.

I hate the "fakeness" and "faux trendy" spin that people (mainly orlandoans) paint themselves as. I hate the media darling. Mainly though, the spin. Orlando needs more critcism and less atta-boys.

This thread is just about comparing the appearances of the two cities and nothing else. Orlando, by and large, is the better-looking city. However, even though Tampa is the industrial city, it couldn't hurt if the city planted a few trees and shrubs here and there, encourged property owners to better care for their property, and pass a few zoning laws (at least in highly trafficed areas). Tampa could be a very attractive city if it wanted to be. And that could have a big impact on attracting more businesses because workers are much more willing to be transferred to an attractive city, and CEOs are more willing to move a company to a nice looking town than one that doesn't look cared for.

This thread is just about comparing the appearances of the two cities and nothing else. Orlando, by and large, is the better-looking city. However, even though Tampa is the industrial city, it couldn't hurt if the city planted a few trees and shrubs here and there, encourged property owners to better care for their property, and pass a few zoning laws (at least in highly trafficed areas). Tampa could be a very attractive city if it wanted to be. And that could have a big impact on attracting more businesses because workers are much more willing to be transferred to an attractive city, and CEOs are more willing to move a company to a nice looking town than one that doesn't look cared for.
CEO's of companies that matter are usually not in Florida cities. The cost of living increase is what will keep companies from moving here now. The workforce is mostly unskilled. The lure of doing business in Tampa and Orlando besides providing services to the populace was in cheap/dumb labor and some professional services. Those days are about done. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

Sure there is a company here or there that is going to relocate something here, but it has nothing to do with the appearance of a city.

That being said, there is nothing wrong with sprucing things up.

This whole thread is pointless.

I hate the "fakeness" and "faux trendy" spin that people (mainly orlandoans) paint themselves as. I hate the media darling. Mainly though, the spin. Orlando needs more critcism and less atta-boys.

Orlando in general, is underrepresented on this forum. Go over to the others and you will see a fair amount of criticism if that is what you are in search of. I don't see anyone from Orlando attempting to paint themselves as living in some faux-utopia, though I do see you on a countless number of occasions making such a claim. Just get over it!

DT St. Pete is very nice. US 19 is not.

What city of any size doesn't have crappy areas? At least St Pete keeps up the area tourists are most likely to visit.

US 19 will always be a clusterfuck. Either you just convert it all to a limited access highway or you keep it as it is and it remains an ugly, strip commercial, traffic nightmare. Planting some palm trees won't help.

orlando possesses the incredibly nasty orange blossom boulevard. it is one of the nastiest urban strips in florida.

Orlando definately tries to live the "City Beautiful" theme. Certainly, the newness of a lot of metro Orlando helps a lot. As a St. Pete native, I do think Tampa, and the metro area as a whole, could do better. I think it will look MUCH better once the many of the current road projects are complete, and as redevelopment occurs in the neighborhoods.

orlando possesses the incredibly nasty orange blossom boulevard. it is one of the nastiest urban strips in florida.

south OBT has undergone major rennovations and looks quite presentable now.
North OBT close to downtown on the otherhand still looks like a shithole, being that it's in the vicinity to one of the poorest sections of the metro. As with any city, you have your blighted areas.
Despite this, Orlando from the interstate, which is what most outsiders would see, looks great in general.

As for the dirt and grime in Tampa, it is a very industrial city. There is cultural poverty there. There is real, "non manufactured" local culture. There are actual industrial areas, not the sudo area's where clean freight is transfered. Things get fabricated, built, mined, etc in the region. The type of shipping that occurs is dusty, dirty, and gritty. Phosphates and Gypsum, and fuel. Do you like your gasoline Orlando? It is pipelined to your beautiful city from Tampa. Do you like your frozen fish at Red Lobster? How about South American produce in your publix stores? All comes through Tampa. Orlando and Tampa is apples and oranges. One produces, one is fluff.


So, basically, we use and abuse you without any mess to deal with. That's fantastic! It's like we have our own butler... except it's an entire city! I'm so glad you actually revel in being on that end of the relationship. Really. Hey, can you fetch me a beer? :scouserd:

One more thing. There is a little thing called the mob in Tampa BTW. If you want to understand why things the way they are, organized crime is one of them.

Once again, I'm glad you appreciate the mob's presence in your fair *cough* city. Please, keep them all to yourself. You deserve it. :applause:

If you'll excuse me, I have some lovely plastic to appreciate. Ta-ta.

^^ like orlando doesn't have o.c. (lol)

There's grungy/dumpy areas in every mid-sized/large city. I've lived in Tampa for 20 years. Believe me when I tell ya, it was much, much worse before! :)

Tampa and St. Pete have come a long way to say the least, but we still have miles to go. . .

The existence of this thread REALLY trys my patience. The claims made in the original post, and in many posts that follow are based on limited factual information and are quite subjective. In my opinion, the sole purpose of this thread appears to be to slander the Greater Tampa Slum while singing the praises of the Orlando Utopia.

Frankly, I almost hate to respond because I was hoping this thread would just disappear. I guess we are not so lucky - so I feel obliged to argue these points.

Yeah I know Tampa is a port city and Orlando has Disney. But I think it goes beyond that simplistic explanation.
I would not call these descriptions simplistic. Instead, I would call these characterizations completely insufficient to describe these two cities economies.

In Tampa, there is a different attitude and expectation of how things should look and be. People don't seem to care too much about aesthetics here. Streetscape projects are almost non-existent.
I'm sorry, this is just a silly claim. Off the top of my head - here are some major streetscape projects that have occured in past years:

Nuccio Parkway, Tampa
Channelside Drive, Tampa
7th Avenue, Tampa
Meridian Ave, Tampa
Gulf to Bay Blvd, Clearwater
Central Ave. St. Petersburg
Cleveland St., Clearwater

Again, these are just off the top of my head - a simple google search uncovers a dozen more streetscape improvement projects in the Tampa Bay Area. Don't believe me? Here are a few:

http://www.tbrpc.org/livable/pinepark.htm
http://www.tampagov.net/dept_Mayor/files/LakeAVe_FactSheet.pdf#search=%22Lake%20Avenue%20streetscape%20tampa%22
http://www.tbrpc.org/livable/dome.htm
http://www.tampagov.net/documents/CRA_old_TPD_site/Circle_of_Development_presentation/slide54.htm
http://www.clearwater-fl.com/gov/depts/econ_devel/projects/downtown/pdf/Streetscape_Toolkit.pdf
http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2003/04/14/focus4.html
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/09/24/Northpinellas/Wide_way_pleases_busi.shtml


Orlando has industrial areas too, but to my knowledge they don't look as bad as Tampa's.

Well OF COURSE Orlando has industrial areas. Have you driven around Orlando? You clearly haven't seen much of the Tampa Bay area in your 10 years here if you characterize Pinellas County as industrial.

Someone made the point that Orlando is much newer then Tampa - which is absolutely factual. Perhaps that is exactly what you are reacting to.

Even the supposedly upscale South Tampa is only 20% upscale the rest is definitely not.


Boy - you picked on the wrong neighborhood here. But before I shoot down this claim -lets take a look at some FACTS.

The FACTS are that Orlando and Tampa are VERY similar as far as their economic characteristics go. In fact, 2000 census data shows that Greater Orlando Counties have a slightly higher rate of people living below the poverty level then Greater Tampa. By most indicators, Osceola county appears to be the poorest of the four counties compared below:

Hillsborough - Median family income: 53,228
Orange - Median family income: 51,877
Pinellas - Median family income: 51,273
Osceola - Median family income: 46,073

Osceola County - Families below poverty level: 13.2%
Hillsbourough County - Families below poverty level: 10.2%
Orange County - Families below poverty level: 9.2%
Pinellas County - Families below poverty level: 8.6%

Orange - Percent bachelor's degree or higher: 27.3%
Hillsborough - Percent bachelor's degree or higher: 27.2%
Pinellas - Percent bachelor's degree or higher: 26.2%
Osceola - Percent bachelor's degree or higher: 19.8%

SEE: (sessions may expire)

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ACSSAFFFacts?_event=Search&geo_id=&_geoContext=&_street=&_county=orange&_cityTown=orange&_state=04000US12&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ACSSAFFFacts?_event=Search&geo_id=&_geoContext=&_street=&_county=osceola&_cityTown=osceola&_state=04000US12&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ACSSAFFFacts?_event=Search&geo_id=&_geoContext=&_street=&_county=hillsborough&_cityTown=hillsborough&_state=04000US12&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ACSSAFFFacts?_event=Search&geo_id=&_geoContext=&_street=&_county=pinellas&_cityTown=pinellas&_state=04000US12&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010

Now back to South Tampa. Look at the same data for the 33606 zip code.

33606 Zip Code - Median family income: 91,263
33606 Zip Code - Families below poverty level: 3.8%
33606 Zip Code - Percent bachelor's degree or higher: 57.5%

I think these statistics speak for themselves as to the makeup of South Tampa. Although I do not live there, I believe that South Tampa is the wealthiest, most educated demographic in the entire Bay area. This may surprise some people in Pinellas. Now - if you think this one zip code represents just a "small slice" of South Tampa keep in mind that 15,000 residents live in this zip code alone.

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFFacts?_event=ChangeGeoContext&geo_id=86000US33606&_geoContext=01000US%7C04000US12%7C16000US1271000&_street=&_county=&_cityTown=&_state=04000US12&_zip=33606&_lang=en&_sse=on&ActiveGeoDiv=geoSelect&_useEV=&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010&_submenuId=factsheet_1&ds_name=DEC_2000_SAFF&_ci_nbr=null&qr_name=null&reg=null%3Anull&_keyword=&_industry=

Look - I have absolutely nothing against Orlando. I enjoy visiting there. But honestly I think your opinions are biased and inaccurate. To paint the Tampa Bay area as strictly industrial is just silly. The last statistics I saw (sorry I couldn't find anything to link to) had Pinellas county as the number 3 tourism destination in Florida after Orange and Dade. I recall Hillsborough being in the top 10 counties as well. I will spare you my opinions on Orlando's foibles - because I don't really want dis on Orlando - just defend unfair and inaccurate bashing of the Tampa area.

The existence of this thread REALLY trys my patience. The claims made in the original post, and in many posts that follow are based on limited factual information and are quite subjective. In my opinion, the sole purpose of this thread appears to be to slander the Greater Tampa Slum while singing the praises of the Orlando Utopia.

Frankly, I almost hate to respond because I was hoping this thread would just disappear. I guess we are not so lucky - so I feel obliged to argue these points.


I would not call these descriptions simplistic. Instead, I would call these characterizations completely insufficient to describe these two cities economies.


I'm sorry, this is just a silly claim. Off the top of my head - here are some major streetscape projects that have occured in past years:

Nuccio Parkway, Tampa
Channelside Drive, Tampa
7th Avenue, Tampa
Meridian Ave, Tampa
Gulf to Bay Blvd, Clearwater
Central Ave. St. Petersburg
Cleveland St., Clearwater

Again, these are just off the top of my head - a simple google search uncovers a dozen more streetscape improvement projects in the Tampa Bay Area. Don't believe me? Here are a few:

http://www.tbrpc.org/livable/pinepark.htm
http://www.tampagov.net/dept_Mayor/files/LakeAVe_FactSheet.pdf#search=%22Lake%20Avenue%20streetscape%20tampa%22
http://www.tbrpc.org/livable/dome.htm
http://www.tampagov.net/documents/CRA_old_TPD_site/Circle_of_Development_presentation/slide54.htm
http://www.clearwater-fl.com/gov/depts/econ_devel/projects/downtown/pdf/Streetscape_Toolkit.pdf
http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2003/04/14/focus4.html
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/09/24/Northpinellas/Wide_way_pleases_busi.shtml




Well OF COURSE Orlando has industrial areas. Have you driven around Orlando? You clearly haven't seen much of the Tampa Bay area in your 10 years here if you characterize Pinellas County as industrial.

Someone made the point that Orlando is much newer then Tampa - which is absolutely factual. Perhaps that is exactly what you are reacting to.



Boy - you picked on the wrong neighborhood here. But before I shoot down this claim -lets take a look at some FACTS.

The FACTS are that Orlando and Tampa are VERY similar as far as their economic characteristics go. In fact, 2000 census data shows that Greater Orlando Counties have a slightly higher rate of people living below the poverty level then Greater Tampa. By most indicators, Osceola county appears to be the poorest of the four counties compared below:

Hillsborough - Median family income: 53,228
Orange - Median family income: 51,877
Pinellas - Median family income: 51,273
Osceola - Median family income: 46,073

Osceola County - Families below poverty level: 13.2%
Hillsbourough County - Families below poverty level: 10.2%
Orange County - Families below poverty level: 9.2%
Pinellas County - Families below poverty level: 8.6%

Orange - Percent bachelor's degree or higher: 27.3%
Hillsborough - Percent bachelor's degree or higher: 27.2%
Pinellas - Percent bachelor's degree or higher: 26.2%
Osceola - Percent bachelor's degree or higher: 19.8%

SEE: (sessions may expire)

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ACSSAFFFacts?_event=Search&geo_id=&_geoContext=&_street=&_county=orange&_cityTown=orange&_state=04000US12&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ACSSAFFFacts?_event=Search&geo_id=&_geoContext=&_street=&_county=osceola&_cityTown=osceola&_state=04000US12&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ACSSAFFFacts?_event=Search&geo_id=&_geoContext=&_street=&_county=hillsborough&_cityTown=hillsborough&_state=04000US12&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ACSSAFFFacts?_event=Search&geo_id=&_geoContext=&_street=&_county=pinellas&_cityTown=pinellas&_state=04000US12&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010

Now back to South Tampa. Look at the same data for the 33606 zip code.

33606 Zip Code - Median family income: 91,263
33606 Zip Code - Families below poverty level: 3.8%
33606 Zip Code - Percent bachelor's degree or higher: 57.5%

I think these statistics speak for themselves as to the makeup of South Tampa. Although I do not live there, I believe that South Tampa is the wealthiest, most educated demographic in the entire Bay area. This may surprise some people in Pinellas. Now - if you think this one zip code represents just a "small slice" of South Tampa keep in mind that 15,000 residents live in this zip code alone.

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFFacts?_event=ChangeGeoContext&geo_id=86000US33606&_geoContext=01000US%7C04000US12%7C16000US1271000&_street=&_county=&_cityTown=&_state=04000US12&_zip=33606&_lang=en&_sse=on&ActiveGeoDiv=geoSelect&_useEV=&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010&_submenuId=factsheet_1&ds_name=DEC_2000_SAFF&_ci_nbr=null&qr_name=null&reg=null%3Anull&_keyword=&_industry=

Look - I have absolutely nothing against Orlando. I enjoy visiting there. But honestly I think your opinions are biased and inaccurate. To paint the Tampa Bay area as strictly industrial is just silly. The last statistics I saw (sorry I couldn't find anything to link to) had Pinellas county as the number 3 tourism destination in Florida after Osceola and Dade. I recall Hillsborough being in the top 10 counties as well. I will spare you my opinions on Orlando's foibles - because I don't really want dis on Orlando - just defend unfair and inaccurate bashing of the Tampa area.

Thank you for seeing this thread the way I do.. As a bashing of the Tampa Bay AREA AND NOTHING ELSE..

I agree nothing against O-town, but has this poster seen Meridian or what they are doing with I-4 in Ybor City that construction alone makes Tampa look like the real deal..

Also massive construction going on near TIA is going to also make for a better landscaped Tampa..

So, basically, we use and abuse you without any mess to deal with. That's fantastic! It's like we have our own butler... except it's an entire city! I'm so glad you actually revel in being on that end of the relationship. Really. Hey, can you fetch me a beer? :scouserd:



Once again, I'm glad you appreciate the mob's presence in your fair *cough* city. Please, keep them all to yourself. You deserve it. :applause:

If you'll excuse me, I have some lovely plastic to appreciate. Ta-ta.


Well the mob statement has more to do with govenment corruption over the years.

As for who is being used? You are not looking at the relationship the right way. Without Tampa, life in Orlando as you know it could not exist. I-4 would not have been built and Disney would not be there. We SELL you these commodites. Hence our economy is significantly as in the economy of some small cities larger than yours. That includes all your fluff. So enjoy your ride on the bubble. All things age, things with culture and history behind them usually age better.

If you ever take the train through Orlando, you'll see the bums and trash within 100yds of big expensive homes and businesses. Orlando just does a better job of hiding the trash, but it's there. If you ever go out to a city like Seattle, you'll see a very clean city in comparison with people, parks and little attractions everywhere. Orlando, Tampa and St. Pete could all three take some ideas from Seattle. Even huge cities like Chicago compared to New York. Chicago appears very clean. Even from the train coming in from the south and leaving to the north. But folks out there don't seem to mind the higher taxes that pay for all that cleanliness and public attractions.
I don't mind a little constructive criticism, especially if it's true, and to an extent it is but, someone's standing on a nicely covered up trash heap throwing stones at our scantily clad trash heap. :)

The grass seems to looks greener on the "old" Orlando/ Winter Park side(minus the tourist district, which is an exception to the rule). I just wanted to know why that is. Do we have to put up with Nebraska Ave looking roads? The contrast is subjective I know, but I keep thinking if Tampanians would drive down Park Ave or even Orange Ave they would wonder why Tampa can't get a bit of a face lift.

I think that Tampa could get a big face lift once all of the residential projects are built and there is extra cash flow from the new downtown residents. I think that they need to repave ALL of the roads in downtown on the exception of Ashley because it was just done.

I'll be the first to admit, Orlando's got a lot of crappy road miles-- the following roads are public enemy No. 1.

1. SR 50 from 436 east, and from Kirkman to Ocoee, and then Winter Garden.

2. 441- from Apopka south to I-4. the rest from I-4 to 528 has been redone, and the stretch down from 528 to Kiss. is being redone now.

2. Sand Lake Rd.-- from Universal to OBT. set to be widened soon.

-20 years ago, Orlando's roads for the most part were pathetic; probably the worst in the state. since 1997, I've seen improvements in the following roads:

1. 551 widening
2. 436 widening Altamonte
3. 436 widening south orlando
4. Tuskawilla Rd. widening
5. 434 Winter Springs widening
6. Dodd Rd. Widening
7. 434 Oviedo/UCF widening
8. 434 Waterford Lakes widening
9. Lee Vista widening/extension
10. Conway Rd. widening
11. Tradeport Dr. widening
12. 46A widening
13. Park Ave. re-bricking
14. Winter Park Rd. bricking
15. Hiawassee Rd. extension
16. Turkey Lake Rd. widening; extension
17. Universal Blvd. widening; extension
18. World Drive extension
19. Osceola Parkway extension
20. 427 widening from 17/92 to Lake Mary Blvd; missing links
21. Lake Mary Blvd. widening/ OSI
22. US 192 widening: I-4 to Orangetree
23. US 192 widening: I-4 to 535
24. US 192 widening: 535 to Kiss.
25. I-4 widening-- Saxxon to Lake Mary Blvd.
26. I-4 widening-- Lake Mary Blvd. to 434
27. I-4 widening-- 414 to Lee Rd.
28. I-4 widening-- Lee Rd to Ivanhoe
29. I-4 widening-- Anderson to JYP
30. I-4 widening-- JYP to Tnpk
31. I-4 widening-- Sand Lake to 535
32. I-4 widening-- 192 to Polk Co. line
33. 408 widening: I-4 to Tampa Ave.
34. *408 widening: I-4 to 417
35. Narcoosee Rd. widening: 528 to 417
36. Heintzelman Road extension: Hoffner to Boggy Creek
37. Cargo Rd widening
38. Kirkman Rd.: SR 50 to I-4
39. Conroy Rd. extension
40. Millennia Blvd.: extension
41. Orange Ave.: widening south Orange Co.
42. US 192: widening: Kiss to Tnpk
43. SR 50/Bumby intersection widening
44. Curry Ford Rd: extension
45. 414 extension to 441
46. 436: widening- Casselberry/Winter Park
47. 417: I-4 to 17/92
48. 429: 441 to I-4
49. 532: widening (Reunion/Championsgate)
50. JYP: widening- south Orange Co.
51. Old Winter Garden: widening west orlando/ocoee
52. McCulloch Rd.: widening (Oviedo)
53. *Tnpk: widening-- 528 to I-4
54. *408: widening-- Tampa Ave. to Tnpk.
55. Tnpk: widening-- 408 to 429
56. Silver Star Blvd.: widening-- Hiawassee to CLark Rd.
57. Howell Branch: widening 436 to Aloma
58. Aloma: widening-- Tuskawilla to Red Bug (Oviedo)
59. *SR 46: widening: I-4 to 545
60. *I-4: widening: Saxxon to 472
61. International Parkway-- extension and widening (Heathrow)
62. Rhinehart Rd.-- widening (Lake Mary/Sanford)
63. I-Drive South (Kiss.)-- extension (535 to 192)

--this is a short list off the top of my head.
--each surface road widening includes sidewalks, foilage, new street lighting, and sewers.
--list does not include new interchanges; replacement of dozens of hanging traffic signals with poles on other roads; or new roads within PUD's; etc.
--------------------------------------------------------

No comment on Tampa Bay roads. for better or worse, every metro expands its transportation routes on a set schedule based on need and available funding.

http://southtampa.tbo.com/southtampa/MGBD00Z0QTE.html

Here is an article in the Trib today. Hopefully our politicos are getting the message and this will help remove some of the grime!

Let's take an unscenic tour to make a point. Starting at RayJay go north on Dale Mabry. The trees in the median are nice while they last but as we pass Hillsborough it's an asphalt desert. Now turning right on Waters things start going downhill more as we approach Florida Ave. This looks like it was at one time the happening place back in the 60s but many businesses are looking rundown or closed. As we approach Nebraska we wonder what depressed northeast coal mining town we are in (minus the palms). At this point we are about 9 miles north of downtown. As we travel north on Nebraska our stomach churns. This is the most depressing 13 mile stretch of urban highway I have seen in Florida. Let's go east on Fletcher maybe things will look up being near a major University and all. Oh no, so much for that idea. I knew I should have turned down Fowler. Things do look better as we go by USF and turn south on Bruce B Downs. We then get near Busch Gardens. “I'm sorry Mr and Ms tourist but not all Tampa looks this unsafe. Our crime rate really is low. Hope this first impression doesn't sour your opinion because we do want your dollars to come back and maybe to more of Tampa next time.” East on Busch to 56th more of the same dull drum of hit and miss urban grit. Things look a little brighter in Temple Terrace until heading south on 56th we cross more than a river. We cross into night from day. This is a major sophisticated urban metro isn't it? As we turn right onto Hillsborough I can't wait to get back toward the starting point. This tour is not of an isolated part of town. This was pretty much the whole north half of the Tampa city limits with exception of New Tampa. Yeah Downtown Tampa is looking up and much of the outlying suburbs but what is the solution to help the most densely populated areas where some of the area's major institutions are located. Of course, throwing up some trees isn't going revolutionize the area but maybe it will help. This thread doesn't put Tampa in a good light and may be I am being unrealistic, maybe this thread should be on another urban forum. But still , does anyone have any ideas of how to make this huge part of Tampa better. I know a lot of low income folks live there so that has to be considered. Maybe trees/streetscaping ordinances can be the start of some community pride and have a trickle affect on the whole area.

God, let this thread die already.

I'm sorry Mr and Ms tourist but not all Tampa looks this unsafe.

Every major American city (YES - including Orlando) has its unsightly neighborhoods, but you can't deny all of Tampa Bay's natural beauty. THIS is what the tourists are here to see and keep coming back to year after year. They are not hanging out on Nebraska Ave.

<Pictures By Unknown Photographers>

Ft. Desoto Park, St. Petersburg, FL

http://k43.pbase.com/u42/scbirge/upload/27201035.blueheron_4.jpg

http://k41.pbase.com/u42/scbirge/upload/27273846.fishing_pier.jpg

http://pbase.com/sparker1/image/37631208.jpg

Pass-A-Grille Beach

http://www.pbase.com/jsuro/image/47200536/original.jpg

Sunshine Skyway

http://www.pbase.com/jsuro/image/46849854/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/jsuro/image/47626884/original.jpg

Tierra Verde

http://k43.pbase.com/u8/linda559/upload/37338705.StPete382.jpg

http://filelibrary.myaasite.com/Content/26/26085/11480318.jpg

St. Pete Beach

http://k47.pbase.com/u8/linda559/upload/37338709.sunrise6002.jpg

Tampa

http://i.pbase.com/u44/kmayo/upload/33601829.TampaRacingdone004.jpg

http://k53.pbase.com/u16/fasanotampa/upload/42037524.tsr.jpg

http://mk23.image.pbase.com/u15/fasanotampa/upload/41841527.utdusk.jpg

http://k47.pbase.com/o4/47/543247/1/61139699.2.jpg

Tampa - Ballast Point

http://ct.pbase.com/o4/47/543247/1/61622983.wkD936ih.2005_0624Image0030.JPG

Tampa - Picnic Island

http://ct.pbase.com/o4/47/543247/1/62348711.av6vR9Kn.DSCF9569_edited1.jpg

Lettuce Lake, Tampa

http://k43.pbase.com/u43/scbirge/upload/27762452.cypresstrees.jpg

Hillsborough River Rapids

http://aquat1.ifas.ufl.edu/hillsbor5.jpg

http://www.myparkphotos.com/photographs/01-13-2005/0000025_0001133_Hillsborough%20Rapids.jpg

Clearwater

http://ct.pbase.com/o5/47/543247/1/68495688.Is6Enwjm.clearwatersunrise2.JPG

http://www.volkert.com/images/clearwater-2.jpg

Sand Key

http://www.kingofmyworld.net/florida/skb47.jpg

St. Petersburg

http://ct.pbase.com/o4/47/543247/1/61093021.pier.JPG

http://ct.pbase.com/o4/47/543247/1/61092831.pelicanpier.JPG

http://k53.pbase.com/o4/47/543247/1/60905840.StPetersburgPier.JPG

Weeki Wachee Springs
http://www.hernandoreefexplorers.com/young%20manatee.jpg

Great Pics!!!! Yes, I know the Greater Tampa Bay area has many beautiful spots.

Beautiful pics. The one of the Sunshine Skyway at night is my favorite. Just a simply amazing shot.

One of my favorite Tampa landmarks is the UT building. In fact, I really like that part of town too. It's got a lot of character.

Good and bad, the main thing I don't like about Tampa is the location of RayJay. As for unsightly streets, well, every city's got em.

I'm from St. Louis and trust me Tampa doesnt look that bad, the whole metro actually had a suburban look and feel to it, hardly any urban decay and mostly nice.

Being someone who gets to travel some what frequently, I can assure you that compared to many other metro areas ours is actually pretty nice. Tampa is an industrial city, thats just part of what we are.

why is this thread still alive? Personally I disagree with it's premise.

As for the industrial aspects of Tampa, the other day I was glossing over the Port of Tampa website and the google earth images. It's pretty impressive. It's huge. Lots of land. Even the filtration plant is there. I like the way the rail link is incorporated on the SE side. Good stuff.

According to the website, the Port Authority is the governing body over the Aquarium and the rest of the Channelside projects. Is that true?

Yes, the Tampa Port Authority has jurisdiction.

Yes, the Tampa Port Authority has jurisdiction.

how far does that jurisdiction extend (geographically, that is)?

The control various parcels throughout Channelside, down Ybor, and through Gibsonton. Their jurisdiction ends near the TECO Plant in Gibtown/near Apollo Beach.

They are realllll assholes. Working in Channelside was no fun with the Port. They control the complex. As far as I know, that jurisdiction doesn't include the majority of the off-water parcels where most of the construction activity is.

I do not see why the Port Authority would want to hinder development. For one, would they not want dev. because they are land hungry mongrols or could it be that they do not want any competition?

Probaly because it's land atleast partially under their control and they want to make money off of it. They'll probaly make more off the land if they put traditional maritime development or attractions such as the aquarium, not condo development. Competition is not an issue as far as against condo projects, but it is against other ports.

Well I think that they should put up more hotels in the Channel District because I think that is where a lot of the people who come off the cruise ships would like to stay. Granted we do have two highrise hotels right there near Channelside, but I mean I would like to see some boutique hotels and almost urban B&Bs. On the other hand, in my opinion, I think that Channelside is the perfect area to become one of, if not the most productive area in downtown Tampa. I think that retailers should look at investing in Franklin Street area and also the 11th and 12th streets, because with all of this new residential going in people are going to need specific things and they are not going to want to drive a mile to Publix and after a certain hour they have nothing. I think that Channelside should be a self-sustaining community and not have to have its residents rely on other parts of the city for such things as groceries, household needs, etc. Sorry I went off on a HUGE tangent, but that is what I think.

I've been saying for a long time that they need to develop a multi-floor urban shopping plaza with integrated parking garage similar to the Target one in Westshore that features a Publix, Target, etc....

I've been saying for a long time that they need to develop a multi-floor urban shopping plaza with integrated parking garage similar to the Target one in Westshore that features a Publix, Target, etc....

I think it's healthier for Channelside to have those different stores and neccesities spread out throughout the district. Otherewise you'll just have a lot of traffic around the one shopping center, and make a traffic "black hole" so to speak. It also encourages foot traffic to walk from store to store. Grand central is getting a grocery store when it's completed, and I'm sure more urban boutique shops will pop up as larger density projects (Place Phase 2, Novare, Martin) start and finnish construction within the next few years to go along with what's already completed by then. The project your talking about is best for suburban or semi-urban areas, where if they weren't packed together like that project is then it would just be sprawl, and take more land. IMO :)

I agree. Tampa is not so grungy and dumpy afterall!

I think it's healthier for Channelside to have those different stores and neccesities spread out throughout the district. Otherewise you'll just have a lot of traffic around the one shopping center, and make a traffic "black hole" so to speak. It also encourages foot traffic to walk from store to store. Grand central is getting a grocery store when it's completed, and I'm sure more urban boutique shops will pop up as larger density projects (Place Phase 2, Novare, Martin) start and finnish construction within the next few years to go along with what's already completed by then. The project your talking about is best for suburban or semi-urban areas, where if they weren't packed together like that project is then it would just be sprawl, and take more land. IMO :)

While I agree with you for the most part, I've seen it work rather well in down town Miami and in midtown/Buckhead Atlanta. After all one of the core demographics these sorts of revitalization efforts are trying to appeal to are suburbanites moving back inward and having grown up in Carrollwood its hard to find anyone willing to leave Publix and Target behind.

Can somebody lock this thread?! It's time for this topic to die. Every city has it's bad areas. Time for this to go away!!