When I first came to this forum, I was 100% pro-skyscrapers and wanted to see Athens and Thessaloniki give birth to billions of them. Since then, my perspective has changed. Greece is Greece for a reason. Yes, skyscrapers are good for the economy. Yes, they will attract businesses. Yes, they look nice and modern. And yes, they can make a city less jungle-like. But with the new malls spurting up all over Greece, with the new partial privatizations, and with the new war of terrorism against everything capitalistic (ultimate symbol: world trade centers in New York), I'm beginning to wonder whether building more skyscrapers will just lead Greece down the same road as the US. Granted, and thank God, Greece is not a purely capitalistic country. And although buildings and organizations may run smoother and better under a more capitalistic economy, their charm and personality fades over time. Don't get me wrong - I'm quite glad that certain aspects have changed over the last few years towards a more capitalistic economy (such as the mentioned partial privatizations and educational reforms – although I also completely understand why people would be against them). My question is, however:

For the survival of what we all know as "Greece" as opposed to "just another EU state," how much economy is too much?

The economic reforms have made a huge difference in Greece over the past decade. Better infrastructure, economic growth, more prosperity and a better working public service. In my view Greece has not lost any of its charm because of these developments. I would argue that the reforms would have to be intensified as to attract more investment that could, among others, sustain the development of skyscrapers in Greece.

However this does not mean that skyscrapers should be build everywhere and in every way or form. Greece does not need the glass monstrosities that you see in some countries. The skyscrapers should be a modern interpretation of Greece’s culture and heritage. Take the Petronas Towers in Kuala Lumpur. They have tried to integrate the county’s Islamic background in the design of these skyscrapers. When skyscrapers are going to be built in Greece the architects should try to incorporate some elements of the Greek identity as well. That is why I like the proposed skyscrapers in Elaionas.

I agree with Almopos.

Having seen similar challenges here, in Raleigh, there are a lot of people who discuss the challenge of sacrificing some of our identity in the name of prosperity. Fortunately for Raleigh, we are neither a historic city, nor an ultra modern one. However, it is the new [global] economy that will "punish" the countries that refuse to integrate with the new model; mainly, the major economic centers of those countries. I know it sounds extreme, but sometimes we need to view skyscrapers as the image of a nation that strives for more (not in a greedy way). Once upon a time we looked at 5-story buildings as if they were overwhelming. Today, buildings above 10 stories are the norm in places like Athens and Thessaloniki. As long as we put high-rises in context and keep them architecturally close to our culture's image, we'll be fine. One thing that I want to say is that I am not in favor of high-rises being spread all over the area. City focus places must be clearly identified as sections that could support several high-rises and remain as mixed-use as possible. Athens could use a strong image that includes a real downtown, supported by 2-3 more focus areas.

I agree with both of you. As long as we step carefully, I think a few original scrapers here and there would be ideal for Athens, Thessaloniki, and Greece. Thanks for your comments. I'm glad others also realize this economic balance. Take care!

People who aren't totally for the modernization of Athens may have already forgotten what they city was like back in the 80's and 90's.

I respect 'greecelightnings' opinion, but I must disagree. Living in Athens, I see what a great leap forward the city has made in the past 6 years, but having lived in the US, I see the major steps forward it still needs to take.

Greece will have to continue to modernize if it wants to have a competitive economy. I am thrilled with the fact that Thessaloniki is begining its modernization. Hopefully, in a few years Greece will have TWO first world cities.

Just to clarify, I also live in the US. Modern is a very relative term and, unfortunately, I feel like it is often used by Americans to mean "American" as opposed to "modern."
For example, I would be hard pressed to list cutting edge biomedical research in Greece that compares to what has been accomplished in the US - but try to find a fast food place in Greece that looks anywhere near as sad, dirty, and disgusting as almost all of them in the US. So which is more modern?
Take urban transportation or the health care systems. Cities in the US usually have extremely poor urban transportation, whereas cities in Europe (including those in Greece) have relatively extensive public transportation. In regard to the health care system, the US pays more money per capita for health care than any other industrialized nation, yet ranks 37th (much lower than Greece) in overall quality of the health care system, according to the World Health Organization. So which is more modern?
In my opinion, "modern" may not be used in place of "capitalism" or "economic prosperity". There are other factors involved.

Also, let's not forget that having the ultimate competitive economy is not something that most Greeks would bend over backwards for. Malls, for example, increase competition tremendously due to the proximity of shops in one small area, but I doubt most Greeks (including me) would wish to see malls spurting up everywhere killing any existing small businesses like in the US.

Modernization is always good. Sacrificing tradition and culture to achieve it is the mistake the US has made.

I'm gonna have to totally disagree.

I am 100% pro-capitalism. I believe that's the only true way forward. Keep in mind that the capitalist facets of the Greek economy (from the growth of private sector businesses to certain capitalist government reforms) are a key reason why Greece has made a lot of progess over the last decade or so (EU funding aside).

To suggest that Greece shouldn't study and/or mimic certain aspects and methods of the US economy (the richest, most competitive, and most technologically advanced nation on earth, that's also home of some truly great cities) is a mistake.

As for skyscrapers, I fail to understand how some people cannot apperciate the positive aesthetical contribution large modern scrapers add to a city's skyline. At the end of the day, we all want the cities we live in to look and feel right. To make us feel proud. None of us can possibly be perfectly happy, at this point in time, with the way the current Athens or Thessaloniki skylines look. Yes both towns have a lot to offer, but both can also do a lot better. Of course, it must all be done tastefully, like this:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c350/protaras/Picture167.jpg

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c350/protaras/Picture170.jpg

As opposed to horrible concrete jungles like you see in Sao Paolo and a few other cities around the globe.

Also, instead of building more malls, many cities in the US have built shopping areas that look like this:

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/6728/n18805833308426037685ga6.jpg

These "add more" to a city, in my opinion.

Back in the day, we set the bar very high for the Balkans and Eastern Mediteranean:

http://img445.imageshack.us/img445/6977/n18805833308975127485su7.jpg

It's a damn shame we gave up

I'll end with a quote from a famous Greek architect based in Athens, who happens to be pro-skyscrapers:
(In term of architecture) "There's a fine line between moderation and mediocrity. And all too often, mediocrity prevails."

@ NMBS1,

You are right, a few US cities do manage to create very tasteful atmospheres for their skyscrapers and malls, although these situations are a minority. To be honest, these new types of malls mimic more of a European type setting where pedestrians walk outside amongst shops and restaurants - a mini Ermou Street, if you will. Maybe focusing on this minority would help create a good balanced ground for Greece.

The balance of capitalism will forever be debated due to too many factors to mention here: the nation's economy, the rich population, the poor population, life essentials, times of crisis, societal demands, principles of rights and freedoms, etc...

Thanks for your comments!

The key word that has been mentioned many times is "balance". If we take in consideration the Greek culture, economy and social structure, we may create a well balanced urban fabric that will emphasize options, as well as image. Unfortunately, in the United States, we are trying to recreate the past, or immitate the European elements that most of us admire in terms of urban feel and architectural achievements. At the end, we fail miserably :( There are many good examples, however, that give us direction and purpose. All is not lost... Greece can find its future direction if more and more people get involved in the process of urban development.

Double post... Sorry :(

Just to clarify, I also live in the US. Modern is a very relative term and, unfortunately, I feel like it is often used by Americans to mean "American" as opposed to "modern."
For example, I would be hard pressed to list cutting edge biomedical research in Greece that compares to what has been accomplished in the US - but try to find a fast food place in Greece that looks anywhere near as sad, dirty, and disgusting as almost all of them in the US. So which is more modern?
Take urban transportation or the health care systems. Cities in the US usually have extremely poor urban transportation, whereas cities in Europe (including those in Greece) have relatively extensive public transportation. In regard to the health care system, the US pays more money per capita for health care than any other industrialized nation, yet ranks 37th (much lower than Greece) in overall quality of the health care system, according to the World Health Organization. So which is more modern?
In my opinion, "modern" may not be used in place of "capitalism" or "economic prosperity". There are other factors involved.

Also, let's not forget that having the ultimate competitive economy is not something that most Greeks would bend over backwards for. Malls, for example, increase competition tremendously due to the proximity of shops in one small area, but I doubt most Greeks (including me) would wish to see malls spurting up everywhere killing any existing small businesses like in the US.

Modernization is always good. Sacrificing tradition and culture to achieve it is the mistake the US has made.

File, Nobody is saying that Greece has to become the next US or Germany. But, I am hardpressed to find something wrong with economic competition, which in the long run will be better for Greece. These little mom and pop stores are nice, but they cannot and should not survive if they can't keep up with major businesses.

As for the US vs. Greece comparison....:

Fast Food: Most fast-food restaurants in the US are not as dirty as you make them out to be. Infact, they actually have pretty strict regulations on them to make sure that they are reasonably clean.

Try going to a small fast food place in Greece. The food they serve there is usually either day old spanakopita, loukanikopita, etc.... or terrible tasting sandwiches. Aside from Goody's and sometimes Everest, I never eat fast food in Greece.

Health Care:I am by no means a supporter of the current US healthcare(or lack thereof) system. I belive that healthcare services should be free, or atleast in-expensive. Having said that, the US has, without a doubt the best doctors, medical equipment, hospitals, medical schools, etc... on earth. So, even though you do pay more in the US, you get what you pay for.

On a side note, Greece also has private hospitals.

Transportation: I don't know where in the US you are from, but my hometown, Washington D.C. actually has a very good public transportation system. There is a metro, which gets you to anywhere in the city you need to go, with multiple stations where you can connect trains. The city also has two major bus services(Metro Bus, Ride-On Bus) which take you all around the city and its suburbs. The same thing goes for most east coast cities.

As for Athens, the bus system, is one of the best I've seen in my life, and the metro is very nice, but is very small as well. There are many parts of Athens non-accessible by metro, which is one of the reasons traffic in Athens is still so bad.

One thing I should also mention in regars to transportation, is that the roads in Greece are very small, in many cases one or two lane streets. This causes massive traffic problems throughout the city. In the US, there is obviously still traffic, but it is much easier and faster to get from place to place because of the large streets throughout the country.

I can't imagine Athens without Attiki, Ethniki Odos running through the city. It must have been a nightmare back in the 80's and 90's.

Athens losing its charm due to skyscrapers: As NBS1 stated earlier, a city can maintain a skyline while still keeping its charm and culture at the same time. Just look at Istanbul or Paris. Both those cities still have many 19th century buildings throughout the city, as well as towering skyscrapers. So I can't see why a cluster of skyscrapers in Maroussi(where there aren't any classical buildings anyway) will hurt the city.

Anyways, today Athens is mostly filled with 60's and 70's era buildings that today look quite hideous. That is not 'Greek' architecture and I don't find it particularly charming either.

Athens still needs to:

- Build a small cluster of skyscrapers
- Expand the metro
- Widen many roads throughout the city
- Restore abandoned 19th century neo-classical buildings throughout the city(there are a lot of them)
- BUILD AN ICE RINK!(So I can play hockey:) )

With these things done Athens' revilatization will be complete and the city will be a fantastic place to travel(not that it isn't already).

I love Athens, and it is my second home, but living here for 2 months has shown me ther are some major things that need changing.

Well the good thing is the metro is expanding. Soon it will reach more neighborhoods. And then they have plans to extend even more. I think in some years eventually it will expand to most of the neighborhoods/suburbs.

As for the US vs. Greece comparison....:

Fast Food: Most fast-food restaurants in the US are not as dirty as you make them out to be. Infact, they actually have pretty strict regulations on them to make sure that they are reasonably clean.

Try going to a small fast food place in Greece. The food they serve there is usually either day old spanakopita, loukanikopita, etc.... or terrible tasting sandwiches. Aside from Goody's and sometimes Everest, I never eat fast food in Greece.



Except McDonalds, which serves food in "oily" trays only in the US, and darn clean anywhere in Europe.

Greece or any other European country should not emulate the US economy and become entirely capitalist. Economies do need to be competitive, but some things like health care and education should be accessible to all, not just those with money.

For Greece, the US and every other country on earth, a new approach to economic sustainability must occur and that means meeting the "triple bottom line" (TBL).

TBL meaning that responsible governments and their citizens should not only be held responsible for economic viability, but they should be environmeantally conscious and take into consideration the community's concerns. Economic viability + environmental sustainability + social concerns = triple bottom line.

At the end of the day a booming economy in Greece or anywhere else in the world means little when the planet is deteriorating and citizens' concerns about their community are not heard from the politicians who are supposed to represent them.

Because I live In Greece, I believe that I have the right to express a valid opinion.

In Greece we have the bad habit to turn down anything before we even give it a try. At the moment Greece is NOT a capitalist country, not in the sense that the word is perceived in North America, the economy is not liberalised and many activities are controlled by the state through a strange system of interweaved connections with the private sector. Yet we are consuming ourselves in "what if" scenarios IF pure capitalism was to ever be implemented in Greece. Worse, we are talking about the evils of capitalism while the problems we experience come in my view out of the lack of it.

The major problem for this country is that it does not give a fair chance to the best of its breed to succeed. It poses a million obstacles to anybody wishing to start up a business, and when they succeed after a million ordeals, the state is the first to overtax them.

Building skyscrapers or not, is an aspect of this negativism expressed towards anything that composes "modernism" in whichever sense it may appear. The same pertains to private tertiary education in Greece, or the state bureaucracy, etc. We are NOT talking about extreme changes, it is just that IF we want Athens to be seen as a business centre, then at least in a spot or two, it has to look like one. Of course we may opt not to, in which case we will suffer the consequences.

"If you always do what you always did, you will always get what you always got".

That simple.

On the other hand, with this and that, we still have a 4% growth index which is quite remarkable for the EU standards. Imagine what we could have achieved if we were just a bit more open-minded. No need to become over-capitalistsic but to resent capitalism without ever having been real capitalists seems like a paradox in my view. Why not give it a try?

Thank you all for your comments. This has turned into an interesting discussion.

Anybody who wants to have an idea about what a 100% capitalistic system in Greece would be like can imagine this little scenario. Some people may prefer it. Others won't:

Imagine water (a product strictly regulated by the Greek government) costing more than gas.
Imagine having a multimillion luxurious stunning residential skyscraper/building/area "just down the street" from ghettos and slums (which are practically non-existent in Greece - please think twice about contending this unless you have been to a ghetto in the US).
Imagine having a thriving economy, with everybody wearing those same cheaper shirts from those few international/national clothing companies (same goes for EVERY product/store/service/etc).
Imagine having one of the top educational and health systems in the world - assuming that you have the money to pay, because if you don't, you're generally sh*t out of luck.
Imagine the poorer getting poorer, and rich getting richer.
Imagine some of those tavernas you love being run out of business by some huge chain/hotel/etc that can offer much cheaper food, but with lesser quality and cultural atmosphere.

Some of these things may seem to contradict themselves, such as the thriving economy with cheaper products versus the increasing gap between rich and poor. In a purely capitalistic economy, those with money have a greater power than if they were in Greece's semi-capitalistic economy due to the lack of regulation of products (escpecially those essential for life such as health care, water, and bread - and arguably education). Thus, any political or economic program/incentive/action that would be more beneficial to those with money will ultimately pass, placing the poor in an even more disadvantageous situation and, hence, forever increasing the gap between rich and poor. (See the history of the US health care system for a perfect example.)

@gm2263
You are right in what you say, and changes SLIGHTLY toward that direction are most probably the correct ones, in my opinion. The point of this discussion, however, is to address at which point should we stop - the "balance" mentioned by Raleigh-NC. As for "Why not give it a try?", I could think of many things that I'm sure I would not want to do without having tried them - such as Russion roulette, jumping off a bridge, or playing chicken with an 18-wheeler. You are 100% correct however - a 100% capitalistic economy will bring economic success to Greece. But hey, 4% doesn't look that bad! (Not to mention the realization of Greece's "true" GDP - the 25% "increase".)

Some Greeks clearly just refuse to see anything wrong with Hellas. It's quite sad actually. Because self-criticism is precisely what helps countries improve themselves. Many of us simply like to claim that things are perfectly fine as they are, and that we don't need or want to be like other nations in any way.

Of course, many aspects of Greek society are very good. Yet, copying certain (quality) elements found in other countries is partly what helps a nation progress in many different ways. Furthermore, cities like Paris or London are no less French or British because of a few skyscrapers, shopping malls, or drive-through banks . Similarly, cities like Dallas or Los Angeles have not become less American because of the construction of European-looking shopping sreets or the erection of countless sidewalk cafes...

Athens could do with many things found in North America and the rest of Europe. At the same time, we could maintain our own culture and history by restoring the numerous 19th century buildings around Athens which are falling apart and have homeless people living in them. Instead, some of the apartments currently under construction in Athens (and elsewhere arounf the country) are essentially modern replicas of the horrible 1960s and 1970s buildings that litter the city.

@ NMBS1
I agree 1000% - some international models would actually help diversify Greek cities. Of course, your key phrase is "a few". And I'm not sure, but I don't think anybody here thinks Hellas is perfect in any way. No country is, or ever was. Cheers. :cheers2:

Europeans fail to see that Socialism is dying everywhere but in Europe. I travel the world on my job and have been to many continents. Europe's economic growth is pathetic.

There is no free lunch. Nationalized health care only makes sense when you have a young population. When your population gets older, like in most western countries including Europe, you put an unfair burden on the younger folks to support an increasingly expensive health care system. The American health care system is the highest quality in the world. No, it is not free. But why should it be?? Why should any service be free?? Somebody has to pay for it, why should the taxpayers be made to pay??

Socialism screws those who work the hardest and rewards those who are the least productive. There may be a case to be made for programs that help those who are totally incapable of helping themselves, but thats about it IMO. You want a good education, get off your butt and earn the money for it! You want good health care? Fine, earn it.

America has 4 1/2 % unemployment and most of Europe-including Greece-is around 10%. The reason is they are not competitive because of high costs. And it will get worse, not better. Greece needs more capitalism, not less. More productivity, not less. I have the utmost faith in Greek entrepreneurship, given the opportunity.

Very interesting contributions guys, interesting readings...

Europeans fail to see that Socialism is dying everywhere but in Europe. Maybe Europe has more of a social conscience than other places?

I travel the world on my job and have been to many continents. Europe's economic growth is pathetic. What some people fail to notice is that it's not all about economics.

There is no free lunch. Nationalized health care only makes sense when you have a young population. When your population gets older, like in most western countries including Europe, you put an unfair burden on the younger folks to support an increasingly expensive health care system. The American health care system is the highest quality in the world. No, it is not free. But why should it be?? Why should any service be free?? Somebody has to pay for it, why should the taxpayers be made to pay?? OK then, if you have a friend or relative who is disabled and unable to look after themselves and hasn't got health cover, then should they be left to rot or should all the community contribute to looking after those who can't look after themselves? Seems more humane and civilised to me that we look after the disadvantaged in our community. This is what is meant by socialism.

Also America DOES NOT have the best health care in the world. The health care system in America leaves much to be desired. Even Australia can claim to have the best health care in the world and it's FREE FOR ALL, no matter if you have insurance or not.

Socialism screws those who work the hardest and rewards those who are the least productive. There may be a case to be made for programs that help those who are totally incapable of helping themselves, but thats about it IMO. You want a good education, get off your butt and earn the money for it! You want good health care? Fine, earn it. What if you can't earn it? Say you come from a disadvantaged community and never have the opportunity to better your social status because you have to do menial work to look after your family? No society can call itself just and progressive if it doesn't provide access to education and health care to ALL its citizens. The best examples I can give you, are to look at nations such as Sweden and Holland. They have the highest standard of living in the world and the citizens are heavily taxed, yet they still have a strong work ethic. All social services are free in these countries, including child-care, education and health care.

America has 4 1/2 % unemployment and most of Europe-including Greece-is around 10%. The reason is they are not competitive because of high costs. And it will get worse, not better. Greece needs more capitalism, not less. More productivity, not less. I have the utmost faith in Greek entrepreneurship, given the opportunity. The world needs less exploitation of its diminishing resources and a good hard look at capitalism and how it is failing us all. Like I said before, at the end of the day, unemployment rates, skyscrapers etc mean nothing when we have an earth destroyed by rampant capitalism in the pursuit of profits to satisfy shareholders.

I recommend you go back to greecelightning's post and see what "liberalised" ( i.e. poorly regulated) capitalism has done for America. I don't think anyone really wants that to happen in their countries.

For the survival of what we all know as "Greece" as opposed to "just another EU state," how much economy is too much?

i think your living in the US has influenced you in a strange way. The EU is not that similar to the US, most things you see as bad in the US dont exist in Europe. European cities manage to keep a great pedestrian area in the historical center with strong comfortable business centers in the outskirts and generally extensive public transport. this is not bad, it is the way Athens is taking the last 20 years and the way we have to continue following.

So if you ask me: yes for the next 20 years the best thing we can do is to become "just another EU state". Unless you think that traffic, smog, a bloated public sector killing all private enterprise etc is just "the greek way" and we should keep it for sentimental reasons. I dont think so. Any tradition, however old, if it is bad for the people we should get rid of it.

Finally I do not see in any way how privatizations and free markets can be a step backwards for Greece. Lazy public employees are not "the greek way" and should not be viewed romantically. They are a historic accident in a country with a huge enterpreneurial tradition and will fade away with time...

@ pilaf
Good point, and somewhat of a comforter if you ask me. Keep in mind, however, that you are implying that Europe has a pure capitalistic economy. It does not. As stated one year ago by a professor of economics at the University of Massachusetts,

"...The remarkable historical twist here should not be missed. It was the rise of capitalism in Europe that produced socialism as its self-criticism, the profoundest contradiction and alternative to capitalism. In the intervening decades, capitalism and socialism became global. The rest of the world played its unique and powerful roles in shaping both global capitalism and global socialism. By the end of the twentieth century, global socialism encountered extreme problems and suffered many reverses. Global capitalism rejoiced at its sudden chance to expand again and seemingly without criticism or opposition. It proclaimed itself as the end of history, socialism as forever defeated, and the neo-liberal phase of global capitalism as the unstoppable wave of the future. How remarkable that it is once again in Europe -- although not now, of course, in Europe alone -- that a new movement of socialist criticism is emerging. Produced by the latest neo-liberal phase of capitalism, it may well become its greatest challenger yet and this time perhaps its gravedigger." (http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/wolff310805.html)

The recent student revolts in France are also a glaring example of how Europe is most definately not ready to become purely capitalistic.

My reference to "just another EU state" was more of a "future phenomenon" I was referring to that parallels what happened to the once unique independent colonies (or countries) that now make up the relatively similar states of the US. Should the EU develop a pure capitalistic economy, it would be one step closer to creating the US of Europe. (I'm not saying that the unification of Europe is a bad thing by any means. I'm simply commenting on its economy.)

Sorry for the confusing phrase. Thanks for your comments!

I recommend you go back to greecelightning's post and see what "liberalised" ( i.e. poorly regulated) capitalism has done for America. I don't think anyone really wants that to happen in their countries.

You ever even BEEN to the US, Neorion? If you were, you wouldn't write such uninformed garbage. And the US health care systems IS the best in the world. At least the best I have ever seen, and I've visited most of europe, North American, South America (major countries), Japan, Australia and China.

Many Canadians-who have national health care-come to the US to pay for treatment which is unavailable in Canada because their system is going broke. There are more MRI equipment in Detroit, Michigan, USA than there are in ALL of Canada! You need an aspirin or a bandage in Canada, fine they can handle that. You need anything requiring real expert treatment you better head to the US. Canada is an ageing population, like most of Europe, and they can't handle the high cost of modern medicine.

Cradle to grave socialism in Europe is NOT enlightened, it's stupid. Those type of programs are fine when you have 20 or even 10 workers supporting one person on retirement. They are NOT fine when you have 2-3 workers supporting a pensioner. That's why the high unemployment in Europe-high costs. I used to go to Europe all the time on business. I don't anymore, I head to the far east. The companies I visted in France, Holland and Germany are either going out of business or not technically cutting edge anymore BECAUSE OF HIGH COSTS.

But hey, what do I know? You keep on with your "careing" and "enlightened" programs. When unemployment reaches 15-20%, and it will, tell me about it.

The only Law of Economics you need to know: "There is no free lunch!"

The only Law of Economics you need to know: "There is no free lunch!"

Samual Johnson once said, "A decent provision for the poor is the true test of civilization."
For the sake of discussion, I'm curious as to how you would justify denying health care to somebody working a minimum wage job with no disabilities in a pure capitalistic economy. Thoughts?

And the US health care systems IS the best in the world. At least the best I have ever seen, and I've visited most of europe, North American, South America (major countries), Japan, Australia and China.

Be careful with such direct assertions based on personal experience only. Here is the most recent (2000 report) worldwide ranking of "overall health system performance" by the World Health Organization:

http://www.who.int/entity/whr/2000/en/annex01_en.pdf

The column on the right is each country's overall rank. As you can see, Greece is 14th, while the US is 37th. If you take a closer look, you will see that IF you have money and are willing to pay it (or are able to get a job with health insurance - and keep it), the US is the best place to be. The reason that the US is the ONLY industrialized nation without national health care/insurance is that Americans see health care as a privilege, not a right. The rest of the industrialized world disagrees.

So let us know. How would you justify it?

ps: Money doesn't grow on trees. Under national health care/insurance, it comes from national taxes. I don't want to go into the details (because there are many), but national health care is ultimately (and theoretically) not fully provided to able citizens who do not make an effort to work and earn money (hence, potentially pay taxes).

*
GreeceLightning the rankings of the world health organization are laughable. :toilet:

DO you really believe the Health Sytem of Costa Rica is superior to the US or that Greece is ranked ahead of Canada ( 14 vs 30) ?

Remember the old saying: There are lies, damn lies, and statistics

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1172006

*

You ever even BEEN to the US, Neorion? If you were, you wouldn't write such uninformed garbage. And the US health care systems IS the best in the world. At least the best I have ever seen, and I've visited most of europe, North American, South America (major countries), Japan, Australia and China. OK, I'm not in the medical field but I have read many reports and articles about public health around the world and the US is not a shining light in this area, so much so that other nations use the American example as what not to do. Secondly, I have travelled quite extensively throughout the world and have lived and worked in Japan and parts of Europe.

Many Canadians-who have national health care-come to the US to pay for treatment which is unavailable in Canada because their system is going broke. There are more MRI equipment in Detroit, Michigan, USA than there are in ALL of Canada! You need an aspirin or a bandage in Canada, fine they can handle that. You need anything requiring real expert treatment you better head to the US. Canada is an ageing population, like most of Europe, and they can't handle the high cost of modern medicine. That's not what I read. I heard that the cost of simple medicines is so high in the US that regular bus trips full of seniors cross the border on pharmaceutical expeditions to Canada.

Cradle to grave socialism in Europe is NOT enlightened, it's stupid. Those type of programs are fine when you have 20 or even 10 workers supporting one person on retirement. They are NOT fine when you have 2-3 workers supporting a pensioner. That's why the high unemployment in Europe-high costs. I used to go to Europe all the time on business. I don't anymore, I head to the far east. The companies I visted in France, Holland and Germany are either going out of business or not technically cutting edge anymore BECAUSE OF HIGH COSTS. I believe socialism has its merits, but I also believe in pragmatism, so if the health care system does become more costly, then all citizens should contribute more to keep it functioning, especially wealthier citizens.

Europe (and other countries) have labour laws that many generations have fought hard for. These laws cannot be eroded overnight to satisfy economic goals that reward the few, while they leave the majority wanting. Also, you cannot compare Europe to the third world. Workers in the third world are over exploited.

But hey, what do I know? You keep on with your "careing" and "enlightened" programs. When unemployment reaches 15-20%, and it will, tell me about it.

The only Law of Economics you need to know: "There is no free lunch!" Like I've said before, it's not all about economics when it comes to a just and humane society. We don't live in the caveman era anymore, where it was survival of the fittest. We're supposed to be civilised now.

"Of all the forms of inequality, injustice in health care is the most shocking and inhumane" - Martin Luther King

source (source)

In short: Capitalism has many drawbacks but even if this is the case, Capitalism is the best economic system when it comes to wealth created. In Greece we have not reached the stage of becoming capitalists, and we shifted from a socialist economic system to the one of private oligarchy with a conservative government acting as a spectator, despite their verbosities about morality, which never breached the boundarties of the realm of wishful thinking. For Greece, a shift towards a more liberal and original version of capitalism at the present stage would free dormant or neutralized human, economic and political capital that now is willingly or unwillingly out of the core of the social and economic production system, and will allow for an increase of the wealth created and a more even distribution of it.

Socialism has been tried in Greece and fell short of the people's and society's expectations. Time to move to something that will free up the potential of the Greeks as it is being released in North America, Australia, or anywhere else in the Western World.

Time for a change.

As for skyscrapers, they may not solely and entirely bring economic development per se, however, their existence signifies the will of the people and a city's planners to serve businesses well and make good visual evidence of their economic progress.

As for social security in Greece, only the beneficiaries from the public sector (συνταξιούχοι δημοσίου ) can claim that they have a decent level of service, probably because the public-sector oriented economic and social system wanted to reward them for their allegiance to the current status quo and their efforts (some 900 demonstrations per year in Athens almost entirely made by the public sector employees in Athens alone, all during working days and hours) to maintain it as it stands now. The beneficiaries of the private sector that are under the IKA scheme have a much more deteriorated level of service, much less privileges, and with their irratiolnally high contributions to IKA, they are deprived of monetary sources that had they been otherwise disposed in a Private Sector Scheme, they might have ended with a better and much more reliable service.

Up to now, Greece has been good only to the people working in the public sector, and a few businessmen that had "interweaved" interests (διαπλεκόμενα συμφέροντα ) with the state, at the expense of others. This has to change and yes, the entry of private sector in tertiary education as well as overall changes in the way it is delivered, construction of skyscrapers in selected areas designated as business development zones, privatizations, libaralization and un-bureaucratization of the overall procedures needed to create and operate a business, point to the right direction as a set of primary steps to be taken.

Socialism has given its best to Greece and is best was not good enough, perhaps no good at all. Time to try something else. Or else...

In short: Capitalism has many drawbacks but even if this is the case, Capitalism is the best economic system when it comes to wealth created. In Greece we have not reached the stage of becoming capitalists, and we shifted from a socialist economic system to the one of private oligarchy with a conservative government acting as a spectator, despite their verbosities about morality, which never breached the boundarties of the realm of wishful thinking. For Greece, a shift towards a more liberal and original version of capitalism at the present stage would free dormant or neutralized human, economic and political capital that now is willingly or unwillingly out of the core of the social and economic production system, and will allow for an increase of the wealth created and a more even distribution of it. This would be ideal. One that strikes a balance with today's pressing environmental concerns.

Socialism has been tried in Greece and fell short of the people's and society's expectations. Time to move to something that will free up the potential of the Greeks as it is being released in North America, Australia, or anywhere else in the Western World. Without trying to generalise, I've always felt Greeks have an autonomous and entrepeneural spirit. Something they've (some) been able to develop and achieve in the diaspora. The "new world" of course may offer more opportunities for this to occur, but of course a "born entrepeneur" can succeed in any environment.

Time for a change.

As for skyscrapers, they may not solely and entirely bring economic development per se, however, their existence signifies the will of the people and a city's planners to serve businesses well and make good visual evidence of their economic progress.

As for social security in Greece, only the beneficiaries from the public sector (συνταξιούχοι δημοσίου ) can claim that they have a decent level of service, probably because the public-sector oriented economic and social system wanted to reward them for their allegiance to the current status quo and their efforts (some 900 demonstrations per year in Athens almost entirely made by the public sector employees in Athens alone, all during working days and hours) to maintain it as it stands now. The beneficiaries of the private sector that are under the IKA scheme have a much more deteriorated level of service, much less privileges, and with their irratiolnally high contributions to IKA, they are deprived of monetary sources that had they been otherwise disposed in a Private Sector Scheme, they might have ended with a better and much more reliable service.

Up to now, Greece has been good only to the people working in the public sector, and a few businessmen that had "interweaved" interests (διαπλεκόμενα συμφέροντα ) with the state, at the expense of others. This has to change and yes, the entry of private sector in tertiary education as well as overall changes in the way it is delivered, construction of skyscrapers in selected areas designated as business development zones, privatizations, libaralization and un-bureaucratization of the overall procedures needed to create and operate a business, point to the right direction as a set of primary steps to be taken.

Socialism has given its best to Greece and is best was not good enough, perhaps no good at all. Time to try something else. Or else... I'm not against capitalism per se and do believe that you have to be pragmatic and realistic to meet the world's changing economic conditions. All I mean is that it shouldn't go too far, but strike a balance between sound social and economic policies. We have seen what happens with "all out capitalism". If this is meant by too much economy, then I'd say don't go there.

I am also aware of Greece's woeful industrial relations, a major contributor to dettering investors IMO. Its bloated beurocracy and other unproductive sectors are also holdiing the economy back. I support the establishment of private universities in Greece and other privitisation measures, especially if the public sector has failed in this area, but what I see as most crucial for Greeks is a change in mentality, which ultimately means a change in culture and the way things are done. I thought that was slowly happening, but with the continuing poor industrial relations and other shocking incidents, like anarchists seizing tertiary institutions for some demented cause like freeing a convicted assassin, I am left gob-smacked and pessimistic. These things happen in industrialised societies occasionally, but not continually like in Greece.

Finally, although I may be critical of America's health system, that doesn't mean I don't recognise the other great contributions the US has made. I'd also add that I'm aware that NYC and other big cities have social problems, such as homelessness and that its always existed and will continue to exist. I'm not that idealistic to not expect it.

my 2cents

Having lived in the U.S. long enough to know, and having witnessed a few things that allow me to form an opinion, I believe that the US health care system, while not perfect, or the greatest it could be, it is overall the best, or at least near the top. During one of my best friend's battle with cancer, his parents came from Greece and stayed with him for about 15 months. They were amazed with every aspect of the treatment, and commented on how greatly my friend was treated by the medical staff. In every level, their own experience was more than positive. If my friend had made it at the end it would have been great, but he didn't :( Also, let me put a myth to rest, once and for all. Whoever says that a poor person will die if he has no insurance, he/she has no idea about how the system works here. Not only you WILL be treated, but you will never even have to pay a penny; technically, you will have to, but they won't put you to jail if you can't. I have a friend who sends the hospital $25 a month for an emergency operation that was valued at several thousands of dollars. He received the treatment and when they send the bill every month he sends them a small amount. In addition, many illegals receive treatment without EVER paying the hospital bills. I also know a story about a Greek guy who came to Raleigh, to visit relatives, went for an emergency operation and never paid a penny. That is the reality which happens here every day.

I am definitely not a capitalist, but for the U.S. this system is ideal. It offers tremendous opportunities for EVERYONE and if you work hard enough you will live a good life. The success stories of poor immigrants who came to the U.S. and became well-off through hard and honest work are many and frequent. I will not touch the subject of why so many Americans do not reach the same level, but the opportunities are out there. It is more like teaching someone how to hunt/plant his food and survive, as opposed to feeding that same person all the time. Would that system work in Europe, or Greece? Honestly, I don't know. Nor I will claim that this is the only way to go. Maybe a hybrid of capitalism and socialism may be better, but the economy will determine whether one nation can survive by offerring opportunities for material wealth and free food, at the same time. At this time, I can only speculate.

Posted by Raleigh-NC
Not only you WILL be treated, but you will never even have to pay a penny; technically, you will have to, but they won't put you to jail if you can't. I have a friend who sends the hospital $25 a month for an emergency operation that was valued at several thousands of dollars. He received the treatment and when they send the bill every month he sends them a small amount. In addition, many illegals receive treatment without EVER paying the hospital bills. I also know a story about a Greek guy who came to Raleigh, to visit relatives, went for an emergency operation and never paid a penny. That is the reality which happens here every day.

You have discovered one of the many partial solutions the US has found to its greater underlying health care problem. Notice - the cases you talk about are all emergencies. It is illegal for any hostpital in the US to refuse EMERGENCY CARE (what you would go to the emergency room for). So yes, if you don't have money and have a heart attack, they will try and save you anyway. If, however, you are uninsured and have a chronic disease or need any type of treatment, operation, or diagnosis that is not an emergency, you WILL be rejected (except in only 2 or 3 places where the system is more like the European model).

Posted by gm2263
For Greece, a shift towards a more liberal and original version of capitalism at the present stage would free dormant or neutralized human, economic and political capital that now is willingly or unwillingly out of the core of the social and economic production system, and will allow for an increase of the wealth created and a more even distribution of it.

Posted by Neorion
This would be ideal. One that strikes a balance with today's pressing environmental concerns.

Posted by Neorion
Like I've said before, it's not all about economics when it comes to a just and humane society. We don't live in the caveman era anymore, where it was survival of the fittest. We're supposed to be civilised now.


Well said!

Posted by SKLAVENITIS
GreeceLightning the rankings of the world health organization are laughable.

Remember the old saying: There are lies, damn lies, and statistics


The World Health Organization is an extremely well respected organization worldwide. Like you said, they are statistics and could very well be manipulated. Keep in mind, however, that this fact gives credit to all those who score poorly, as it leaves room for them to complain about the analysis. Always realize the source of an opinion.

The companies I visted in France, Holland and Germany are either going out of business or not technically cutting edge anymore BECAUSE OF HIGH COSTS.

let us not exaggerate! ever heard of BMW? Mercedes? Or maybe finer things, like Karl Zeiss? Philips? What about Siemens (what medical equipment do the best hospitals use i wonder)? Airbus?

I dont care much for socialist economic models but you push me to say that Europe is actually not that bad (you cannot compare the public health system in Germany with the US. Or public schools. or public transport. You get the meaning...)

greecelightning i would like to know this MIT professor. Actually there is no purely capitalist economy in the world in the last 150 years. Capitalism has adjusted itself. However this is mostly not due to the success of socialism, but the phenomenal success of free markets! If our income hadnt risen that fast, all the protests and strikes in the world couldnt change a thing. There would be just no funds for the poor, for schools etc It is the success of the "devil", of the free market system, that has made all this possible.
Now in general most people are right here: Greece has to move to a more liberal system. Socialism or any other ideology can not be an excuse anymore for people to be lazy and feed off our purses.


neorio
For the world's richest nation to show such inequality and disregard between its people can only mean that the system and mentality of its people (not all) are terribly flawed

the poor in America are as a rule not poorer than poor Europeans. It is the rich who make a difference. And the US is not the richest country of course. What about Norway, Switzerland, Luxemburg (ok im joking about the last one)...

Neorion, you need to get out and see the world yourself instead of reading about it in newspapers that may have an agenda. Life in the US is good, if you're willing to work. If you're lazy, things can be rough but why should working people support loafers? There are plenty of safety nets for those who simply can't work.

As for homeless people, I admit that's a problem. But it's a problem with modern society and not just in the US. I see homeless people all over Europe, South America and even in Japan. Many are mentally ill and can't work. But there are programs so they don't starve in America, just like in most places.

I'll leave it at this, it's MUCH easier to become wealthy in the US than in Europe. You have to work hard, but the opportunities are there if you're willing to put out the effort. The opportunity for wealth is much more hard to achieve in Europe, due to it's high taxes. In their desire to provide programs to tackle any conceivable problem in society the Europeans have costed themselves at a high rate.

Some prefer it that way, a great averaging out effect-difficult to become wealthy, but you share with your neighbors much more evenly. I prefer to live in a society where you prosper based on your efforts. Most Greek Americans appear to agree with me, because as an ethnic group we have the highest or second highest average income in the USA-depending on which poll you consider.

My big problem with European socialism is that when you have an ageing population, like most of Europe, you end up taxing everyone so damn much that it causes a general disincentive to work hard. And the economy as a whole suffers.

Finally, Canada's health care system IS going broke. I live right across the border from Ontario so I know what I'm speaking of. Canadians don't want to pay any more taxes so they have to cut health care services accordingly. General health care is fine, but any special procedures have such a long wait that most Canadians go to the US and pay to get them. If they need an MRI or catscan or anything like that, they come to the US. Europe is heading in that direction.

I think people are confusing 2 things here when mentioning the terms "quality" or "best." The quality of the health care must not be confused with whether it's free or not. You can get horrible free health "care" in many countries around the globe.

What I think people are trying to say is that the US clearly has (overall) the best hospitals and doctors. In other words, the best quality. As opposed to the greatest level "compassion." Just do some research and look up the leading hosptitals of the world; you'll find that most are in America. For instance, the #1 ranked hospital in the world for all types of cancer is MD Anderson in Houston, Texas:

http://www.mdanderson.org/?Referrer=Google&KW=Cancer_Center

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GreeceLightning the rankings of the world health organization are laughable. :toilet:

DO you really believe the Health Sytem of Costa Rica is superior to the US or that Greece is ranked ahead of Canada ( 14 vs 30) ?

Remember the old saying: There are lies, damn lies, and statistics

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1172006

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I live in canada and I have also used the health services in Greece. I can tell you UNDENIABLY that Greece's system is better. Hands down. Down make me get into it right now....the reasons are many.

Neorion, you need to get out and see the world yourself instead of reading about it in newspapers that may have an agenda. I've travelled quite extensively throughout this world as I pointed out before. If you say America has the best health system in the world, then good, I really hope it does. I can't say I've been to a US hospital and am only going by reports and articles I've read, not necessarily from media with an agenda, I'll add. But anyway we're getting off topic.

Most Greek Americans appear to agree with me, because as an ethnic group we have the highest or second highest average income in the USA-depending on which poll you consider. I'm aware that the well established Greek-American community has done quite well in the US, and that's great.


Statue of Athena in Athens Square, Astoria, the old Greek area of NYC in Queens.

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6099/nycastoriaue3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


btw, I'm wondering if your nik stems from your name in reverse, as in Landos? Not important, just curious.

Greece has many good doctors nowadays. Ironically the vast majority studied in North America for part i.e. postgrad specilization, or the full extent of their studies.

Where the system sucks is in the support and managerial aspects and not on the level of medical training per se. Also, one may also say that it IS generous, although lots have to be done to improve the logistical aspects of it.

But the economy needs a real rectification both in terms of statutory provisions, as well as restructuring. How it will be done, nobody knows. However, I insist that at least, they should de-bureaucratize the system to allow the ones willing and able to create, either by starting up their own business, or by finding a salaried position in the private sector in new and dynamic enterprises which, as many of us know, may not have the abundance of resources of the big guys but have a fresh and visionary mind towards new opportunities and an open eye towards innovation.

This is how an economy grows...

Greece needs to get away from the civil servant mentality. I was at the Acropolis in Athens once. Long line waiting to pay the entry fee and get in. There were three people in the booth, and only one of them was working. The other two were talking and laughing. The one selling tickets had a cigarette hanging out of his mouth with the ash an inch long. He was working at his own pace and it wasn't fast.

It was a hot July day and the sun was beating down. About half the people in the line ended up getting tired of waiting and walked away. In 15 minutes time, the laziness of the attendents probably cost the Acropolis fund about $30/20. Now, multiply that by all the civil servants Greece has and you get my drift. No sense of urgency, no sense of work ethic.

Those people needed to be TOLD if they didn't get off their ass they'd be fired. That's what would happen in the US. In Greece, their union would call a strike to get them reinstated-at twice their former pay and extra vacation time so they could recover from the ordeal of a "difficult" boss.

And the cigarette smoking while on duty, in a public building HAS GOT TO GO. It looks bad, smells bad and portrays a terrible image.

Many Canadians-who have national health care-come to the US to pay for treatment which is unavailable in Canada because their system is going broke. There are more MRI equipment in Detroit, Michigan, USA than there are in ALL of Canada! You need an aspirin or a bandage in Canada, fine they can handle that. You need anything requiring real expert treatment you better head to the US. Canada is an ageing population, like most of Europe, and they can't handle the high cost of modern medicine.

Where did you hear such nonsense?

The reason why many Canadians do go to Buffalo for MRIs and such is not because we lack high technology, but because the wait list is long for this things and these people who have money want it done *now*, so they are willing to pay for it.

It got very bad that the Ministry of Health instituted a new system or organization as well as the hiring of more nurses and doctors with more machines.

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/transformation/wait_times/wait_mn.html

As you can see there is mostly a very significant reduction in wait times.

This is the bad thing about subsidized health are (Canada subsidizes about 70-75% of it).

Now where I wholly agree with you is the bloated public sector of Greece, AND of Canada.

I believe health care should be subsidized, but what's killing western/Canadian economies fiscally is the extreme "social" programs (money for the lazy etc), and huge government sectors.

Here in Toronto, it got so bad that City Hall was supposed to institute a hiring freeze of government employees. Well our socialist mayor didn't listen and instead went on hiring 800+ city employees, some costing over $100,000 a year.

How can the taxpayer fund this stuff?

And don't even start me on welfare and other "social assistance programs", which essentially take our hard earned money and give it, for free to the lazy and the con artists ("I can't work because I am depressed" types). We actually subsidize these bastards.

And then we wonder how we're going broke.

There was a hoopla here on a radio show where they broke the story that it was better for a pensioner to claim refugee status, becuase the monthly government subsidy to a refugee (!!!) was $2,500, more than an average pensioners $1800 per month.

And then we hear about how broke we are and how there is no money.

The PROBLEM lies with the socialist mind. It dictates that if one subscribes to (the correct) notion of free health care, one must also (a nation) have huge numbers of redundant government employees, with powerful unions overpaying them (see the Toronto Transit Commission), and huge "social assistance programs" for the lazy, the con artists, and the refugees.

In short, the socialist views says you can't only have the health care without the rest.

You think those smoking guys at the Acropolis were bad?

Try going to book a court date here for a traffic ticket. My friend went there (on his lunch hour, so time was a factor for him), while 5 (yes FIVE) city employees were sitting behind the glass windowed counter yapping it up (all on our dime), all the while a lineup was building. He had to literally yell at them to get them to work.

And then we're told we have no money.

You can go to a shrink here, and tell him you feel depressed. If you do it right, not only will you get free expensive drugs every month on the taxpayer, but the government will send you a cheque every month if you claim it's so bad you cannot work. And on top of that, even if you do choose to work, they STILL send you money (just not as much).

Then we're told again how we're broke.

The last Premiere we had with BALLS....Conservative Mike Harris

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Harris#Common_Sense_Revolution

What he did at a glance:

-One of its first major policy decisions after taking office was to cut social assistance rates by 22%.

-Provincial income taxes were cut by 30% to pre-1990 levels. In addition, a new Fair Share Health Levy was established and charged to high-income earners to help pay for mounting health care costs.

-Harris's government increased health spending to record levels to counter transfer cuts from the federal government, and hired new nurses. It also introduced Telehealth Ontario, a new 24-hour toll-free telephone help line with live connection to registered nurses.

-The government's administrative policies involved the amalgamation of several municipalities. In the largest and most widely-covered of these moves, the individual cities that made up Metro Toronto were merged into a single city (deemed the 'Megacity' by the media and citizens). The Conservatives argued that the move would eliminate duplication of services and increase efficieny.

What came from it....

-Harris's government balanced the provincial budget

-Harris supporters pointed to the fact that government revenues rose from $48 billion in 1995 to $64 billion by 2001, when the budget was balanced.

-Harris' government reduced Ontario welfare rolls by 500,000 people

-Employment rates increased significantly during the late 1990s

@ Sodnal
Hopefully such scenes won't disturb you next time you visit Greece!
17 archaelogical sites and 12 museums will get a fully automated booking and entrance control system...

http://www.in.gr/news/article.asp?lngEntityID=745911&lngDtrID=253
sorry, couldn't find the article in english.

Great, Greece is making progress then.

There is nothing wrong with Greece that a little free market capitalism won't fix. Greeks are by nature and history entrepreneurial masters. Unfortunately, 30 years of PASOK policies have so screwed that up that too many Greeks now feel the government is the be all and end all to provide for them.

Too many Greeks idea of ambition is to land some plump government job, put in your 25-30 years doing as little as possible and retire to a comfortable pension. The idea of landing a job in the private sectore or staring your own business-working your kolo off-and making a small fortune is alien to them. That has got to be changed back. Nea Demokratia is starting to make some MINOR changes, but so much more needs to be done. We are talking about reversing 40-50 years of rampant socialism and corruption here, it won't happen overnight!

^ I couldn't have said it better myself. You're exactly right, Sodnal.

I have faith in the Greeks. I'm 52 and I expect to live to see the day when Greeks have the HIGHEST per capita GDP in Europe. It's there for them, all they have to do is work hard and achieve it.

Greece is in an ideal location with the Balkans starting to develop and Greece having most of the major port facilities in SE Europe. Greek banks are moving into the Balkans and Turkey in a big way. Greek shipping and ports have become key representatives to Chinese imports into southern Europe. In a nutshell, the Greeks have everything they need to become prosperous and an integral part of the southeast European economy.

Now, all we have to do is convince 20-30% of the population that the government doesn't owe them a living! If we can change that mindset, watch out!

The day that prices on water and engines are liberalized in Greece would be the day Greece fails itself.

I have faith in the Greeks. I'm 52 and I expect to live to see the day when Greeks have the HIGHEST per capita GDP in Europe. It's there for them, all they have to do is work hard and achieve it.


I have the same hope. Anyway as far as numbers concern looks like we declared a GDP of around 20% lower than the real thing so far. So if my maths don't go wrong we are approaching the 300 billions level; and accordingly a per capita similar to that of Spain (around 25,000).

As far as the capitalism and not capitalsm isuue goes a would say that Παν μετρον αριστον (Moderation leads to excellence) at least that's true for our people, as we all know the results of extremes and its negative results from both side extreme left and extreme right as happened throughout the time lapse from 1945 to 1974.

Also I think we have to take what fits better to our idiosyncrasy as people a little from here and a little from there. For instance the current system in the US I think is perfect and fits just right for America as Cowboys and Country music does. I could not imagine such a genuine American system applied in a 100% in France for example and vice versa. So politico-economic systems are completelly linked with social and nation idiosyncarasies.

I think we should take the best from America, France, UK, Ireland, Sweden and Germany, learn from the implementing system of Spain and Japan; check carefully what goes better from each of the above in our country and from all the above get a genuine "Greek System", desirable for our countries also.

Finally I want to point out that union and cojuncture in certain aspects no matter ism and ideology is a must for any country and that applies anywhere; that's whether the lefties, righties or centrists are in power, certain thinks should keep their easy flowing (especially economics), as those extreme changes of direction are the ones that destroy the material of a healthy economic system as an earthquake does with the foundations of a stucture. Look for instance in America regardless of Democrats or Republicans leading the nation some fundamental characters of the economic system don't change, and when that has been applied in other countries too it meant success for them also.

Also I think we have to take what fits better to our idiosyncrasy as people a little from here and a little from there. For instance the current system in the US I think is perfect and fits just right for America as Cowboys and Country music does. I could not imagine such a genuine American system applied in a 100% in France for example and vice versa. So politico-economic systems are completelly linked with social and nation idiosyncarasies.

I think we should take the best from America, France, UK, Ireland, Sweden and Germany, learn from the implementing system of Spain and Japan; check carefully what goes better from each of the above in our country and from all the above get a genuine "Greek System", desirable for our countries also.

What is also important are the "change agents" that will help whetever changes are to be made. We need to be reminded that the aim is to liberate "hidden" social forces and NOT simply change directions. It could be easy to proceed deeper into more austerity measures. The point is that without any proper developmental and liberalization measures, the economy as a whole will suffer. Budgetary cuts do half of the job, the other half is done by wealth created, as we all know.

I believe Greece can still utilize the 4th CSF to pursue a policy similar to Ireland where emphasis was placed on using EU funds to to develop educational programs as well as making it easier to do business in Ireland.

GM makes a good point. Austerity measures are only part of the equation. Fiscal imbalances can be corrected, but the climate has to change for future growth.

It's good to see Greek businesses branch out abroad as they have, but it's time the Greek state seriously reduced the barriers for business. This involves both the trimming of the massively bloated bureacratic civil servant class, lowering of business taxes, and streamlining/cutting/condensing the sheer mountain of paper work required to open and operate businesses.

If you make it easier and cheaper do to business in Greece, foreign investors will come and bring capital (and jobs). Greeks would for sure become even more entrepreneurial than they are now. If investment is flowing, jobs are created, and more people have money to spend (which helps the government because they tax it all). So everyone wins. Then there is cash for things like looking to revamp the health care system and such.

Austerity alone is certainly not the answer. But in combination with the fostering of a business friendly atmosphere, it will change everything in time.

Ireland shouldn't be held up as some sort of model. They have the highest per capita DEBT in the EU. That nation is living on borrowed money.

The solution to Greeces ills is to minimize government involvement to the maximum extent possible-deliver the mail, defend the country, police the nation, regulate trade, print currency, provide education and a handful of other things. Government should not be viewed as some sort of employer of last resort.

PASOK used government revenue to buy votes by providing endless civil servant jobs and programs. To the extent now where Greece has WAY too many folks on the government payroll. They need to reduce that-dramatically.

Tax rates on new businesses should be as low as possible. The leadership of Greece should make it a PRIME goal of the government to lower bank borrowing rates as much as possible. Investment in Greece and for Greek firms overseas should be strongly promoted.

^Wow.

I certainly sign the above Manifesto.

Ireland shouldn't be held up as some sort of model. They have the highest per capita DEBT in the EU. That nation is living on borrowed money.

The solution to Greeces ills is to minimize government involvement to the maximum extent possible-deliver the mail, defend the country, police the nation, regulate trade, print currency, provide education and a handful of other things. Government should not be viewed as some sort of employer of last resort.

PASOK used government revenue to buy votes by providing endless civil servant jobs and programs. To the extent now where Greece has WAY too many folks on the government payroll. They need to reduce that-dramatically.

Tax rates on new businesses should be as low as possible. The leadership of Greece should make it a PRIME goal of the government to lower bank borrowing rates as much as possible. Investment in Greece and for Greek firms overseas should be strongly promoted.

This guy knows EXACTLY what he is talking about.

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Sodnal writes: Ireland shouldn't be held up as some sort of model. They have the highest per capita DEBT in the EU. That nation is living on borrowed money.

Dear Sodnal I believe you are confusing "public debt" with "external debt".

Public debt refers to the difference between what the government takes in and what it spends. In 2005 the public debt of Greece stood at 106.8 % of its GDP. This is one of the worst rates in the world. In a ranking of 114 countries Greece came in at number 9! By comparison the public debt of Ireland was a paltry 26.7 % of its GDP placing it in 90th place.....
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2186rank.html


The external debt of Ireland in 2005 stood at $ 1,049,000,000,000 (a staggering 1 trillion and 49 billion US $ !). Ireland ranks a number 8 in the world, whereas Greece comes in at 34 with $75,180,000,000 (75 billion and 180 million US $)
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html

Have a look at the countries that make up positions 1 to 7 on the list and you will be astounded by what Ireland has accomplished.

The high external debt is proof of how robust and attractive to foreign capital the Irish economy is. Investors are pouring billions into Ireland while at the same time completely ignoring Greece.>( One country is a magnet for innovation and foreign investment while the other does everything in its power to stifle it.

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I am glad to see all these people coming back. long time no see guys... I do not want to go into conjectures for the reasons that you were away, but I am glad you came back... :)

Sklavenitis, you are quite correct. I meant EXTERNAL debt and not public debt.

But it is still a staggering condemnation of Ireland. You can't build a robust economy on debt, no matter what type.

Greek public debt is high largely because of the cost of the Olympics-which came in much more costly than expected. Mainly because of PASOK engineered delays and cost overruns. But that can be addressed in a few years with strong tax revenue due to 4% growth.

Ireland is going nowhere. Greece is much more strongly positioned for economic growth than Ireland is. No question in my mind. The key is maintaining and accelerating the growth policies of Nea Democratica and keeping PASOK off stage for a few more years. Geogios Papandreaou has NO solutions for Greek ills. He's a clown, nothing more.

I do not want to go into conjectures for the reasons that you were away

I got brigged. :dunno:

My nose was correct!!! Welcome back then!!! :):):)

I would disagree about Ireland though dear Sodnal. The country is right in the middle between the US and UK, the official language is English (although I fell in love with Gallic, when I lived in the UK, I was told that not many people speak it anymore :( Still the paddy boys have the Irish Stout and Guinness after all :) ), and have a strong community in the US, have very much liberalised their economy and became an incubator for innovative businesses. Of course, deficits can turn into a nightmare, but on the other hand, investment (which involves debt especially for the new entrepreneurs) is much more preferable than consumerism.

Also, the single-headedness of the EU towards economic austerity at any cost, is something that has been subject to many debates. Greece is in the middle and IF the economy is liberalised, that will lead to new jobs. The point is that the only way is the creation of wealth and the only means by which it can be achieved is through innovative entrepreneurship. Not protectionism which only postpones the inevitable, but the removal of the obstacles for not only the big businesses but also the small and innovative entrepreneurs, which are called "the locomotive" of the economy.

This is where the future is...

An short story article (5-minute read) in the New York Times on Greek health care (as a model of European health care) vs. health care in the United States:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/18/business/18leonhardt.html?_r=1&pagewanted=1&oref=slogin

Even I didn't expect the care at a Greek public hospital to be better than that at private American ones. Unbelievable...

on the other hand, investment (which involves debt especially for the new entrepreneurs) is much more preferable than consumerism.


Actually, you need both. Consumerism means money passing through the economy which means DEMAND which increases supply and so on. If all the Greek people do is continually put everything they make into banks and not consume any goods or services, what good is that? Businesses need liquidity as well as access to low interest investment capital.

Greece should have a healthy export economy, but internal consumerism is necessary as well. A healthy economy is broad based and not dependent on any one sector.

An short story article (5-minute read) in the New York Times on Greek health care (as a model of European health care) vs. health care in the United States:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/18/business/18leonhardt.html?_r=1&pagewanted=1&oref=slogin

Even I didn't expect the care at a Greek public hospital to be better than that at private American ones. Unbelievable...

I find that the story is somewhat accurate. Healthcare in Greece is definitely cheaper and more accessible and I have had very good health care over the years and good physicians. However, this does not mean that our health care system isn't without problems! One of the areas in which there needs to be change is in the nursing field. That is one area in which our health care system is EXTREMELY lacking and higher standards need to apply!

Actually, you need both. Consumerism means money passing through the economy which means DEMAND which increases supply and so on. If all the Greek people do is continually put everything they make into banks and not consume any goods or services, what good is that? Businesses need liquidity as well as access to low interest investment capital.

Greece should have a healthy export economy, but internal consumerism is necessary as well. A healthy economy is broad based and not dependent on any one sector.


Agreed but not when in ends in overdebting as far as family economics is concerned. In Greece we have this problem. On the one hand people do not understand that a liberalised and debureaucratised economy, especially for the new breed of entrepreneurs will result in more increase in wealth created compared to simple pay increases out of an overdebted state. But you need both.

Now talking about our health system, we have very good doctors (most studied in Greece and abroad, in the US and UK in their majority) but our hospitals (especially the ones that have not been refurbished or renovated for the 2004 Olympics) need a facelift. But like I said, the doctors are excellent.

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Yes the doctors are excellent…but the problem is that you have too many of them. The result is under-employment and very low salaries for the profession in comparison with their counterparts in North America.

The medical system in Greece is characterized by what up here in Canada we refer to as: “Too many chiefs and not enough Indians”.

Looking at the data provided by the World Health Organization we see that:

Canada : 66,583 doctors - 2.14 per 1000 population
Canada : 309,576 nurses - 9.95 per 1000 population

Greece : 47,944 doctors - 4.38 per 1000 population
Greece : 42,129 nurses - 3.86 per 1000 population

USA : 730,801 doctors - 2.56 per 1000 population
USA : 2,669,603 nurses - 9.37 per 1000 population

Australia : 47,875 doctors - 2.47 per 1000 population
Australia : 187,837 nurses - 9.71 per 1000 population

France : 203,487 doctors - 3.37 per 1000 population
France : 437,525 nurses - 7.24 per 1000 population

UK : 133,641 doctors - 2.30 per 1000 population
UK : 704,332 nurses - 12.12 per 1000 population


Notice how in all other Health systems there appears to be a trend towards a 1 to 3 ratio between doctors and nurses, EXCEPT in the case of Greece.
Here we have more doctors than nurses! Why this anomaly? Or is it even an anomaly?
Perhaps someone in the forum with expertise or knowledge in Greek medical issues can provide us with a reason or a hypotheses for the lack of nursing personnel in Greece.

Sources:
http://www3.who.int/whosis/core/core_select_process.cfm?country=can&indicators=healthpersonnel&intYear_select=all&language=en

http://www3.who.int/whosis/core/core_select_process.cfm?country=grc&indicators=healthpersonnel&intYear_select=all&language=en

http://www3.who.int/whosis/core/core_select_process.cfm?country=gbr&indicators=healthpersonnel&intYear_select=all&language=en

http://www3.who.int/whosis/core/core_select_process.cfm?country=usa&indicators=healthpersonnel&intYear_select=all&language=en

http://www3.who.int/whosis/core/core_select_process.cfm?country=fra&indicators=healthpersonnel&intYear_select=all&language=en

http://www3.who.int/whosis/core/core_select_process.cfm?country=gbr&indicators=healthpersonnel&intYear_select=all&language=en


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I'd say nursing doesn't have the professional status doctors have, which is common in most parts of the world. Nursing is considered a "shitty" job whereas doctors are held (too high IMO) on a pedestal in Greece.

To allo pragma pou den mou arese, einai oti merikoi yiatroi stin ellada kapnizoun mesa sta nousokomeia. Auto mou fanike megali adikia.

The number of physicians is less important than the number of specialists. That's where Canada has a shortage, for instance. They usually command higher salaries and are quick to depart to where they can make it-like in the USA.

Agreed but not when in ends in overdebting as far as family economics is concerned. In Greece we have this problem.

I agree that's a problem, but what do you do? I believe in personal accountability. If someone can't control their own spending, too bad. Nothing the state can do about it.

Ahhhh. I have to agree. How can I object the voice of reason?

A few months ago, I read an article in a business magazine about the economic situation in Greece. More specifically, it focused on the unemployment problem (which is a real issue in view of the fact that Greece's economy is otherwise doing well and growing at a satisfactory pace).

The article mentioned one of the key reasons of the unemployment problem(this may surpise some of you):

In Greece, the law and medical schools are FULL of students. To the point where they're at over-capacity. As a result, even well-qualified graduates have a lot of trouble finding jobs in those sectors, as the supply outstrips the demand. Therefore, many inevitably end up working for very little money in hospitals and clinics doing small and easy jobs that are irrelevant to their degrees.

The lazy and pathetic ones go back and live at home, knowing their families will support them and would never force them out of the house.

Furthermore, many people in Greece still have the "old" mentality. In other words, they want to see they kids become doctors and lawyers (as if those are the only 2 respectable jobs out there). And if they can't achieve that, they hope the public sector will provide them with an easy and relatively well-paid job - for life.

In the mean time, the private sector in Greece is generally desperate for more workers (this is a fact). Numerous areas from marketing to business administration are seriously lacking in qualified personel, this hurts Greece in many ways (in terms of its ability to become more cometitive on the global stage, for instance)... But of course, the Greek public sector, thanks to the socialists and other populists in all areas of Greek politics, makes a true mockery of the private sector and its hard working people, who do more for Greece than any lazy civil servant ever will.

Indeed, there's unfortunately very little incentive to work in the private sector in Greece. After all, you can get paid just as well, if not better, drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes all day in a government office, where the position is safe until retirement regardless of the employee's performance and contribution.

@NMBS1
I actually am curious about this, as I am in the medical field. What about private doctors in Greece? Too many of them? Are they getting paid poorly, as well? What is a "poor salary" for a physician in the public sector? Anything helpful would be greatly appreciated.

ps: A new hospital is being built in Voula! :dj:

That's why the ND party is trying to privatize as many current civil service functions as possible. Naturally, PASOK is fighting them tooth and nail because those jobs are occupied by their voters. Plush civil servant jobs where they sit on their ass all day drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes and do little. Then retire with a fat pension and be a load on the taxpayers.

ND has done some good things, but they have 30 years of socialist feather bedding to address. It won't be changed overnight. And you have Georgaki dancing off on the sidelines, forever attacking anything and eveything Karamanlis does. Doesn't matter what the PM does, it's never right in Georgaki's eyes. He's worthless. Worse than worthless.

And by the way, all the abovementioned comments form one of the many reasons why I want to see skyscrapers in Greece... Such buildings would symbolize a powerful and true message: that Greece is a country of great and hard working businessmen and women, entrepreneurs, and risk-takers who want to see their country grow and stand high and tall above the rest. As opposed to a nation of people who are simply happy with the present situation.

But of course, this can only begin with the cooperation of the government and citizens in general, who all need to think about the long-term future of the nation.

@ Greecelightning, I'll try to find the magazine and the article and scan it so that you can read it. All that info was in there, but I can't remember all the details...

Since the discussion seems to have gone political, Sodnal you seem to have quite a selective memory!
When ND was the opposition party I don’t remember any constructive criticism to anything the Pasok government did.
As for the privatisation of civil services ,let me remind you that when the Pasok government started denationalizing public services ,Mr Karamanlis was accusing them of selling out civil property!
Also their moto of “combat against corruption” turned against them with all these disclosures about the “blue kids” as they call them (and koumparoi as well).
My point is that if Giorgakis is worthless so is Kostakis…their only difference is that Giorgakis hasn’t been tested yet as a PM.

Speaking about medical school ,corruption and Karamanlis,i happen to be a med student at the university of Athens(and for the record, I succeeded in panhellenic exams,didn’t use any “illegal” means) and in 2004 had PM’s wife ,Natassa as a fellow student.This lady jumped from school of nursery to the med school of Thessaloniki.
Did her doctorate in medicine while she was still a student(!!!!). She graduated from the university of Thessaloniki doing a cosmopolitan life in Athens (what about laboratories or clinics?…well some in Athens, some others skipped(!!!) )
Did her medical practice in province (agrotiko) while she was still living in Athens and traveling abroad with her husband every now and then.
And last but not least ,got a medical specialty in cardiology while all of us losers ,have to wait in line for about 4-6 years!!!
:rant: :no:
Geia mas:tongue:

their only difference is that Giorgakis hasn’t been tested yet as a PM.


God forbid that dancing baboon will ever be PM of Greece. Andreas had the stature, Georgaki does not and never will. He'd sell out Greece in a second to advance his own agenda.

As for your other political comments, parties ebb and flow. Sometimes they have good ideas and agenda and at other times they do not. There was a time for PASOK, but they're behind the times today. At the current time the ND party has the solutions for Greece. That will change in time, but thats the present situation.

Greece needs to break up the socialist monoliths to become competitive again. ND will do that, PASOK will not-for constituent reasons. Besides, as I indicated, PASOK lacks a strong leader at the current time. The dancing clown is not good enough.

Sodnal do you actually live in Greece? Do you speak any greek at all? You seem to be very passionate about certain political issues of GR, but it seems that you 've built up a personal perspective, very partisan oriented, out of what you 've heard rather, and not out of what you 've experienced (which you couldn;t anyway since you 're probably living in the US or Aussie, from what I figure).

You probably come from a right-wing family of emigrants, but so do many other forumers. I have not seen them so partisan-passionate as you. You would'n like to to have this conversation deteriorate in partisan confilct among Greeks would ya? As far as I'm concerned-and I 've been living in GR for the WHOLE of my life, what ND is being doing since 2004 when they came in power, is trying to be a new PASOK in the seat of PASOK. They only really care for one thing: How they're gonna win the next term and really establish their own dynasty. So please do not give me all that "liberal" crap about ND and "..the 30 yeras of PAsok" etc.If ND were real liberals they would 've needed just a few months to get this country going and nobody would dare to say them a single word....... But hey, they need to appoint their own kids in the public sector, otherwise...bye bye election 2008.....

I find (and I too am talking as a Greek citizen) that there aren't that many differerences between the two parties of ND and PASOK! With that said however we were in great need of a "change" and ND being elected provided that to some extent.

In Greece, PASOK is obviously the "socialist" party and ND is the "conservative" or "right wing" party. However, Cherry is right in the sense that the level of "conservatism" of ND comes nowhere near what true "right wing" parties in other nations such as the USA's Republicans or the Right Wing Party of Australia are like.

That being said, the attempts of ND to privatise certain services is a step in teh right direction...

Demetrius, if you don't agree with my viewpoints than debate them. But don't attack me personally or try and psychoanalyze the reasons for my opinions-that's none of your business, frankly.

I never said I lived in Greece, but I have plenty of family that does. And they are hard working and upwardly mobile. That's all you need to know.

Sodnal do you actually live in Greece? Do you speak any greek at all? You seem to be very passionate about certain political issues of GR, but it seems that you 've built up a personal perspective, very partisan oriented, out of what you 've heard rather, and not out of what you 've experienced (which you couldn;t anyway since you 're probably living in the US or Aussie, from what I figure).

You probably come from a right-wing family of emigrants, but so do many other forumers. I have not seen them so partisan-passionate as you. You would'n like to to have this conversation deteriorate in partisan confilct among Greeks would ya? As far as I'm concerned-and I 've been living in GR for the WHOLE of my life, what ND is being doing since 2004 when they came in power, is trying to be a new PASOK in the seat of PASOK. They only really care for one thing: How they're gonna win the next term and really establish their own dynasty. So please do not give me all that "liberal" crap about ND and "..the 30 yeras of PAsok" etc.If ND were real liberals they would 've needed just a few months to get this country going and nobody would dare to say them a single word....... But hey, they need to appoint their own kids in the public sector, otherwise...bye bye election 2008..... Demetrius, Sodnal has an opinion which he should be allowed to express, regardless if he lives in Greece or not, or if you accept it. You can't accuse other countries of not being open to critcism when you aren't yourself.

Not all immigrants have "right wing" backgrounds. Many also were leftists fleeing before and during the junta years, but most were politically apathetic.

As for PASOK and ND, perhaps they're not that different after all. A small country like Greece can't really didctate its own economic path. It is at the whim of the greater world economy. So if Europe or America sneezes, Greece catches the cold. That's economic reality if you like it or not. Either you be pragmatic and playl with the cards you are dealt or stubbornly and untenably idealistic.

You say that ND needs to appoint their "own boys" to win the next election. If that's the case, then how did they win the last election?

Finally, I'll add, that most of the comments I've read from you, as far as I can recall, are quite fair and thoughtful, so don't take this personally, just as others shouldn't make personal comments about the opposition leader or the PM's wife and yes, I agree, it's not a good idea to get into a politcal partisan discussion on these forums. Unfortunately, one thing for sure, whoever is in power in Greece, it seems there will still be crippling strikes that exceed the common standards of industrialised nations and like I said before, a grassroots change in the "culture", of how things in Greece are done, is what is needed, working together for the common good, instead of personal gain through politcs, which seems to be the tired ol'norm in Greek society still today.

I could go on, but that's my 2cents.

What infuriates me when "partisan" statements are made, albeit this is unavoidable when debating issues like economy, is not to consider the context into which these parties-and I'm refering to the 2 major greek ones, are operating and shift into power. Unfortunately, in Greece we are witnessing political nepotism ("νεποτισμός") , where seats and cabinets are inherited literally "from father/mother to son/daughter" and thus we have people who didn't have even one single real worth-paying working day in their lives ruling this country.How do we want from these people of the "elite" to really comprehend the issues of the Greek Society and economy? I have a job closely assosiated with the public sector and from what I see, the only difference that happened after 2004 was a notion of the right-wing syndicates "it's our turn now to make up for the last 20 years". That's why I'm dissapointed with ND and I'm speaking about nepotism, as it is clear for me now that they also care only about establishiing their own dynasty.

I made some personal comments (especially towards Sodnal) not because I believe that some people are not entitled to speak, but rather because I would like to see some self-restrain up to a certain extent, especially about issues that demand first-hand experience. I would go on even my self and express my opinion about i.e. medicare during "W" Bush administration if i felt keen to do so, but I would try to be a little bit more cautius about it, as I don;t live in the states. Having said that I further on explain that I critisised an attitude that seemed, to my taste, a little bit off-beat.If I was harsh, I apologise, this is my style, I tend sometimes to be blunt. No hard feelings intented anyway.


As for the issue itself, I also believe that the public sector in Greece must be reduced. No doubt about it.But for this to happen a wider consesus among partisan lines in Greece must prevail. And for this calls for new people that have to enter the Greek political scene. People with an enterpreneur background from the real economy and not preppies rehersing to be priministers from the day they were born. And this should happen in context, i.e. the E.U. context.
The society in Greece is not yet ready, mentally that is, for explicit capitalist reforms in the style of the US or some Asian countries.Greece, should and I'm 100% sure about this, combine the best of two worlds, meaning a basic but robust social welfare system with a dynamic economic environment that would allow the movement of capital, creating investrments in areas where Greeks are charismatic, like services for example. If we do not have a stable economic environment, with clear rules of the game (and not changing our fiscal policy literally every year), then we will never be competitive.

What infuriates me when "partisan" statements are made, albeit this is unavoidable when debating issues like economy, is not to consider the context into which these parties-and I'm refering to the 2 major greek ones, are operating and shift into power. Unfortunately, in Greece we are witnessing political nepotism ("νεποτισμός") , where seats and cabinets are inherited literally "from father/mother to son/daughter" and thus we have people who didn't have even one single real worth-paying working day in their lives ruling this country.How do we want from these people of the "elite" to really comprehend the issues of the Greek Society and economy? I have a job closely assosiated with the public sector and from what I see, the only difference that happened after 2004 was a notion of the right-wing syndicates "it's our turn now to make up for the last 20 years". That's why I'm dissapointed with ND and I'm speaking about nepotism, as it is clear for me now that they also care only about establishiing their own dynasty. Meson...>( True, but admittedly this exists everywhere. Here in Australia the foreign minister's father held the same job. Until recently the House of Lords in the English parliament was strictly inherited, in Japan it is even more so and of course you have the Bush clan even down to their "adopted" Condy who was definitely "groomed" into her position. I think, if we have to put up with dynasties, then we should at least demand the upmost competency and accountability from them.
As for the issue itself, I also believe that the public sector in Greece must be reduced. No doubt about it.But for this to happen a wider consesus among partisan lines in Greece must prevail. And for this calls for new people that have to enter the Greek political scene. People with an enterpreneur background from the real economy and not preppies rehersing to be priministers from the day they were born. And this should happen in context, i.e. the E.U. context. I nominate gm. At least Athens is GUARANTEED an improved skyline. :dj:

But seriously, I totally agree. All the people with inherited power I listed previously are buffoons.
The society in Greece is not yet ready, mentally that is, for explicit capitalist reforms in the style of the US or some Asian countries.Greece, should and I'm 100% sure about this, combine the best of two worlds, meaning a basic but robust social welfare system with a dynamic economic environment that would allow the movement of capital, creating investrments in areas where Greeks are charismatic, like services for example. If we do not have a stable economic environment, with clear rules of the game (and not changing our fiscal policy literally every year), then we will never be competitive. Yes. To me this means the triple bottom line. economy + social + environmental = sustainability. It's the only way to go.

The tertiary sector which includes industries such as transport, tourism and potentially education, are keys areas that Greece could develop further. What could be more inspirational than completing your studies in the place that gave so much to western civilisation?

Whatever industries Greeks do, they must provide the highest quality, because this is what will give them the edge over their competitors. I read of Boutaris, the winemaker from Northern Greece. 'Greece is too small to be a major player in the wine industry, it has to offer a point of difference and high quality (wines) is the answer', he said. Boutaris helped restore his ancestral village by providing work in agro-tourism (social), while creating a reserve for the conservation of the countryside and its roaming bears (environmental) and most importantly producing and marketing world class wines (economic). Best practice principles can be applied to all industries, private and public. salute!!!

I agree with this: Greece ruling political elites-the Karamanlis, Mitsotakis and Papandreou families-need some strong competition from the masses. Why should those families be the only ones allowed real leadership positions? Are we to believe on other Greeks are capable of making the right decisions about the future of that nation?

I blame the Greek media as much as anything. They "champion" those folks, give them lots of publicity and make them into the figureheads they are.

Greek politics needs some fresh faces and fresh ideas. Not those with the same old connections and relationships.