Voters are dangerously riled up over St. Clair streetcar project
Oct. 9, 2006. 01:00 AM
ROYSON JAMES

Toronto residents don't need real life, everyday evidence to feed their paranoia about city planners and politicians. So, providing them with just cause to be upset at city hall is dangerous, especially in an election year.

Take the St. Clair streetcar right-of-way, for example

It's fashionable to dismiss the opponents of the right-of-way as Woodbridge-living, car-loving, business-first, anti-transit boors who can't see the forest for the trees. After all, which progressive-minded individual can't see the value of making a midtown transit route more commuter-friendly — even if it is a slight inconvenience to the car?

The right-of-way from Yonge St., to just west of Keele St. is a six-inch platform for the streetcar that makes it all but impossible for cars to use the lanes, except where the platform is lowered to road level at some intersections. It is to become the third route with streetcar-only lanes, joining Spadina and the Harbourfront LRT.

Back in the 1990s, when the Spadina line was being rebuilt, the local opposition was incredibly vocal and virulent. As it turned out, business did not die, the disruption was minimal, the line is functional and good and reliable, though not great or spectacular.

Paul Magder, the Spadina furrier who endured the anti-Sunday shopping campaign waged against him by the Ontario government and is most responsible for us being able to shop on Sundays, says, like Sunday shopping, the Spadina right-of-way has turned out not to be nearly the evil it was predicted to be.

Getting there has been tortuous. Traffic accidents. Constantly changing rules and barriers. Confusion. And by now, you'd think the city would have learned how to implement such measures elsewhere in the city.

Not so, apparently. We're just into the start of the construction phase and already there are howls of protest and dissatisfaction.

Even before the tracks were ripped up along St. Clair there was a sizeable group of residents opposed to the plan. They even went to court to try to halt the project, finally giving up and promising to take their fight to the campaign trail — as they are doing.

With all that hubbub, one might have expected the city to stage the construction with the utmost sensitivity. Instead, the current on-the-job operation has the hallmarks of insensitivity — to businesses and residents.

Make the mistake of driving north-south between Avenue Rd. and Bathurst St. now and face a Berlin Wall at St. Clair. The first thought is to ask why didn't they have temporary bridging over the construction tracks to allow cars venturing from Forest Hill, the village, midtown and further north into the city?

The reason traffic works downtown better than in the suburbs is the myriad of options a grid system allows. Vehicles don't all have to use the arterial roads because side streets often present parallel options. Speed bumps may slow vehicles, but they allow through traffic.

So, of course, the current inability to use the alternate north-south routes past St. Clair is a major inconvenience. It's one that should have been minimized greatly to engender local support of the right-of-way project, not further inflame passions against it.

The only saving grace is it is temporary. Oops. Wait a minute. Once the raised platform goes in, the road wall will become permanent. The "inconvenience" is for today and always.

Enter politics and the municipal election.

At risk are the campaigns of Joe Mihevc and Alejandra Bravo, two NDP candidates locked in serious battles in their wards. Bravo came within a few hundred votes of taking the seat in 2003, losing to first-timer Cesar Palacio. Now, Palacio is the incumbent and he has railed against the new project.

Mihevc, more than anyone else, is seen as the father of the project. For that he will benefit the most and lose the most. It all depends on which side gets their vote out; which is more motivated.

There is a considerable constituency in favour of the right-of-way — at least philosophically. We'll see how they feel once the disruption spreads. And we know citizens are often more motivated to vote against something than in favour of it.

Mihevc's opposition comes primarily from ex-mayor John Sewell and ex-city councillor John Adams. That the opposition is split is good news for Mihevc; but also troubling is the quality of the opponents.

Sewell has spoken out strongly about the right-of-way, and his points of conflict speak to the problems of the enterprise.

Given the opportunity to create, almost from scratch, a spectacular street that redefines the boulevard into a pedestrian-friendly, transit-efficient and car-enabling street, the scheme has been compromised almost to the point of not satisfying anyone.

The best that can be said for streetcar travel is it will be reliable — not a small thing. But after tens of millions of dollars, travel along the route will only be marginally faster.

Cyclists and pedestrians don't get the sidewalk space and bike lanes that might have been anticipated. And the car loses a lane in many places.

Add the natural inconvenience of construction disruption, and the Nov. 13 vote stirs up greater passions in this part of the city.

I pray that they do this on Kingston Rd!!!

Please, please , please!!

Idiots... I don't know how the hell SOS has this much power to revive this dead issue... and why does the Star give them the time of day. They better not freaking stop this thing at Bathurst (what a shame that would be). Only a small minority do not favour this project, most do not live in the area, and Sewell is a backwards bitter old man. Thanks to Miller, Moscoe, and Mihevic for championing this important city building project... all three of them re-elected would send a great message to SOS and the naysayers.

I pray that they do this on Kingston Rd!!!

Please, please , please!!

Eventually my friend, eventually.

It's fashionable to dismiss the opponents of the right-of-way as Woodbridge-living, car-loving, business-first, anti-transit boors who can't see the forest for the trees.


I don't know if it's "fashionable"...more like "accurate".






the Spadina right-of-way has turned out not to be nearly the evil it was predicted to be.


Who predicted it would be "evil" in the first place???? And what does "not nearly....it's only a little evil???






As it turned out, business did not die, the disruption was minimal, the line is functional and good and reliable, though not great or spectacular.


An independent study concluded business went up on Spadina...it didn't just "not die". Not only that, ridership shot up too.Talk about spinning the issue. And what's not great about it? What would make it "spectacular" ???

The design of the line was great...I might even call it spectacular. Both ends of the line end up with direct underground connections with the subway....hundreds of trees planted in the middle of the street...the public artwork lining the route that relate to the nature of the neighbourhoods it passes (UofT, Chinatown, Fashion District, Kensington Market)







Getting there has been tortuous. Traffic accidents. Constantly changing rules and barriers. Confusion.


If you can't read signs or traffic signals, then you shouldn't be behind the wheel in the first place. Oh yea...but let's blame the city for that. Nice one Royson...only, I'm not quite as dumb as your readers are (or you think they are).






We're just into the start of the construction phase and already there are howls of protest and dissatisfaction.


Really...wow....I would never have anticipated that....every time streetcar lines have been replaced, everybody just loves it...especially the retail merchants on the streets.

I'TS A MAJOR ROAD PROJECT!!!

The fact that the road is still open and usable should make people grateful.







"Make the mistake of driving north-south between Avenue Rd. and Bathurst St. now and face a Berlin Wall at St. Clair."


Oh....the "Berlin Wall"....you wouldn't be employing a little drama there now would'ya Royson??






"The first thought is to ask why didn't they have temporary bridging over the construction tracks"


Because the priority is to get it done as soon as possible and to keep the budget as low as possible. What really matters is getting that streetcar back in business. Like I said before, people should be grateful it's open and usable during the project at all. I don't blame them for minimizing the amount of traffic where they have to work....stay the fuck off St Clair...it's under contruction you idiot.






The only saving grace is it is temporary. Oops. Wait a minute. Once the raised platform goes in, the road wall will become permanent. The "inconvenience" is for today and always.



Oh...so now streetcar ROWs are an "inconvenience" ???? Well, you can't have your cake and eat it too Royson. And since the majority of people using St Clair happen to be streetcar passengers, one person's inconvenience is anothers convenience. And making out like getting past St Clair is some kind of major problem is just an invention in your own mind.

In the real world, trying to cross St Clair at one of those side streets that don't have lights during rush hour is practically impossible anyway...and it has nothing to do with streetcars...it's......CARS!!! I used to take a short cut that crossed St Clair all the time, so don't try to spin this one past me mr James.

Yes...OF COURSE you can't drive across the ROW barrier...you will just turn right or left and go to the nearest place where you can, which is not far....where is it written that cars have a right to the shortest route to their destination?






The best that can be said for streetcar travel is it will be reliable — not a small thing. But after tens of millions of dollars, travel along the route will only be marginally faster.


That's hardly the best or only thing that can be said about streetcars. And the point of ROWS in Toronto has nothing to do with making a route times "faster", but to keep headways on schedule.






the scheme has been compromised almost to the point of not satisfying anyone.


Oh look...another theory invented by Royson.

The "scheme" is to install a ROW on St Clair to make streetcar transit better. And that's what they are doing....end of story.






Cyclists and pedestrians don't get the sidewalk space and bike lanes that might have been anticipated. And the car loses a lane in many places.


The road is only so wide, and the ROW only takes up the minimum amount of space it requires to operate in. What is so appaulingly stupid about this statement, is that it puts blame on the streetcars, when it's the cars that want all the space. What's the godamned priority here anyway....since when did public transit become the low guy on the totem pole???? If you want to blame something for not having more space for sidewalks and bike lanes, blame the cars...not public transit...the streetcars are what are making the city better, by illiminating so many cars and providing a more environmentally sustainable way to travel.






Add the natural inconvenience of construction disruption, and the Nov. 13 vote stirs up greater passions in this part of the city.


Oh fer christs sake...roads are totally closed for construction all over the city ALL THE TIME!!!!! What makes St Clair so special?






Hey Royson....if you want to tell people how they should vote, why don't you just come out and say so. Why dream up these stupid mini-dramas.

Oh yea, I forgot, you need to dream them up to fill that pointless "column" you have to say something in every morning.

For the life of me, I have no clue as to why anyone would read the drivel this puke writes. People should only say something if there's something useful or interesting to say...not just because you have to dream "something" up to say because it's your job to fill a space in a newspaper.

Ditto for that Sewell trout.







KGB

Excellent critique of the Royson James piece. They should let you write a piece for the Star! It is indeed the SOS people cite Spadina when in fact Spadina is far more thriving than it was say, 15 or 20 years ago.

It seems to me James seems to oppose Miller and his allies just for the sake of being oppositional and not really based on ideology.

An independent study concluded business went up on Spadina...it didn't just "not die". Not only that, ridership shot up too.Talk about spinning the issue. And what's not great about it? What would make it "spectacular" ???

I believe for the first bunch of years the streetcar line was built, ridership actually went down from the old bus line. It has only caught up recently. Also the amount of time it takes to ride from Spadina station to Front St actually INCREASED from the old buses because of the chosen design. In fact it takes less time to take the Bathurst streetcar down and then walk over to Spadina in certain times.

The thing is, because the stops are placed after the street lights, if the street cars get caught behind a red light, they end up double stopping to let people off afterwards.

I believe this is what he's talking about.

An independent study concluded business went up on Spadina...it didn't just "not die". Not only that, ridership shot up too.Talk about spinning the issue. And what's not great about it? What would make it "spectacular" ???

I believe for the first bunch of years the streetcar line was built, ridership actually went down from the old bus line. It has only caught up recently. Also the amount of time it takes to ride from Spadina station to Front St actually INCREASED from the old buses because of the chosen design. In fact it takes less time to take the Bathurst streetcar down and then walk over to Spadina in certain times.

The thing is, because the stops are placed after the street lights, if the street cars get caught behind a red light, they end up double stopping to let people off afterwards.

You also have to remember, that while some businesses have done better, a lot have also done worse (Chinatown is having a hard time overall thanks to the other 'chinatowns' in suburban Toronto). Some of the doing better can also be attributed to Toronto just having more people especially with all the new buildings in that area as well thus increasing potential customers for businesses there, and potential riders for transit (which is independent of having buses vs streetcar).

Don't get me wrong, I personally do like the Spadina streetcar a lot and I wish the city had more of these right of ways, but I think that may be what Royson James was referring to.

I believe this is what he's talking about.

In fact it takes less time to take the Bathurst streetcar down and then walk over to Spadina in certain times.
When creating FUD, you should generate "facts" that are difficult to refute.

http://www.toronto.ca/ttc/pdf/service_summary_2006_10_15.pdf

I believe for the first bunch of years the streetcar line was built, ridership actually went down from the old bus line. It has only caught up recently.


Well, you "believe" incorrectly...the facts state that within 6 months of the line opening (Feb 1998), ridership increases on the new streetcar line were up 7% weekdays and 15% on weekends over the 77 Spadina bus and 510 Harbourfront Streetcar line it replaced.

And in case you think this is just do to higher ridership in general, forget it.... From mid-1997 to late May 1998, annual TTC system ridership increased by less than two percent.





Also the amount of time it takes to ride from Spadina station to Front St actually INCREASED from the old buses because of the chosen design.


Yea...I think it's like a minute or something...not really a factor. But getting along the route faster was never the point...it was to provide a better ride...increase ridership, and mostly to improve headways. All of which were accomplished. It also made Spadina a much better looking street.

Spadina was a huge mess before the ROW...angled parking (what the hell was this doing in downtown Toronto anyway????? )...and hopelessly bunched up buses all the time. It didn't matter whether you are a streetcar, a bus, a car, a pedestrian or a cyclyist...getting through Chinatown was always a frigging mess.

You're right...with increased ridership translating into longer boarding/unloading times, plus intersection designs, any hopes of shortening the route time by a few minutes were dashed.

But you know, these things are always about compromises, but at the end of the day, I think we came out ahead.







In fact it takes less time to take the Bathurst streetcar down and then walk over to Spadina in certain times.


That's not a gamble I would take....the odds that the Spadian streetcar would take longer to get to its southern destination than the time it takes to walk from Bathurst to Spadina would not be good. And it depends whether Bathurst Station is closer to you than Spadina based on where you started out. Plus...why walk from Bathurst to Spadina to save maybe a minute? Doesn't make sense.







The thing is, because the stops are placed after the street lights, if the street cars get caught behind a red light, they end up double stopping to let people off afterwards.


Yes...and do you know why they did that? ......this is one of those compromises that appease the CARS. They built the ROW to accomdate the streetcars, but they turned around and designed the intersections to accomodate the cars. The reason the stops are on the other side of the intersection, was to allow for exclusive left turn lanes for cars....this also increases route times because of the extra light just for left turn cars.

They should have gone all the way and designed it to accomodate the streetcars all the way. This is what they are going to do on St Clair too...and it's a shame these compromises are made at the expense of public transit. It should be the cars that have to compromise when these situations where you have public transit vs the car.




Streetcars have definetely improved the stock of Spadina (Chinatown), because of their inherent superiority they bring with it....streetcars bring a greater sense of "permanence" to the streets they ply down....they bring more tourists...people like the ride better...they beautify the street, especially with the aestetic improvements that came with Spadina.

And the same thing will happen with St Clair, even though it was already streetcar.






KGB

I don't know if anyone remembers College Street a couple years ago. But businesses there suffered when the tracks had to be replaced. I'm sure the people in Little Italy were upset about it. But they surivived, and have quieter streetcars. St. Clair will be the same. The construction will stop, residents will be happy again. I liked KGB's critique of RJ's article. The St Clair project will be beneficial to the neighborhood, i have no doubt. Cars shouldn't be the primary mode of transportation so close to downtown anyway. Who wants to drive around in that kind of mess anyway. I know I always prefer to just take the subway downtown then to have to deal with driving down there. Just the thought of driving on those clogged roads scares me!

To clear up some confusion (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1160218597973)

Some of these inconveniences will be permanent, which has come as a surprise to many residents. Since the transit right-of-way will be six inches high, drivers won't be able to make left turns on or off St. Clair between traffic lights, says Jacqueline White, the city's manager of traffic operations. But left turns and U-turns at intersections with lights are allowed.

The article expresses surprise at this fact, when it was in fact outlined from the beginning that such would be the case. As far as I am concerned, anybody acting surprised at the reality of non-traffic-light intersections, is faking it.

Royson made it sound like this applied to all intersections, including Avenue and Bathurst, which made me very surprised and had to go digging to see where that comment from. Surprise changes, HA!

That Forest Hill - Poplar Plains route is not designed to be a commuter's short cut, the fact that this will not be usable after the ROW is in place is doing traffic control in those neighborhoods a favour. People are arguing over the sake of their own personal convenience only, not for the benefit of the neighborhood (or city for that matter) - they don't live on Poplar Plains, they live on the other side of St.Clair. Interestingly, nobody that lives on the south side of St.Clair is ticked off (maybe they checked your IQ before letting you buy property there).

The people that complain are mostly selfish rich car-preaching snobs. There are small points of contention that I do agree with in principle - the inclusion of bike lanes, cross-elongated boarding (not only the longitudinal elongation being implemented) allowing boarding from the sidewalk proper, and the opposition of the reduction in sidewalk width are valid arguments, IMO (and I propose the solution: take away more car space for them. A bustling pedestrian paradise can attract more off-the-street business than an auto-dominated one). However, these idiots argue that a streetcar-exclusive raised trackbed is also bad in the same argument, and killing their credibility. People like John Sewell argue that a by-law alone is going to keep people out of the exclusive ROW during peak periods. Sure, right, who's voting for you? Got anybody on there that's not SOS? Given that many of these drivers are rich, I don't think a few tickets are gonna keep them in check. Sewell tries to address the issue of enforcement, but I don't think he's taken the long-term costs into account with his idea, considering that the raised track bed, while having high capital output, has lower "maintenance" (term used broadly) and significantly higher guarantees of efficiency. It's like he wants to make the TTC a traffic cop or something. Just a by-law would be unreliable and enforcement would create additional administrative garbage and pile-up in the almighty beauracracy. Sewell is still 10 years ago, even though his history lesson may be relatively accurate, he can only see into the past, he has no vision for the future.

The lack of management of the intersections at Avenue and Bathurst is kinda shocking. I'm in the construction-drawings industry, if I were managing the project I'd have only half of each intersection unusable with the opposite directions of travel available on each. The result would be while you can't go southbound on Avenue, you can on Bathurst, and northbound is vice-versa. After half of the work is completed at each intersection, reverse and repeat for the other half, and there would be a lot less headaches with relatively little cost-increase (it takes a little longer, so labour adds up a bit, but then, that's the exact reason they are not doing it), but extra loss from delayed operations.

There are actually enough alternative routes to by pass the intersection at Bathurst. I suggest these whining snobs go look for a little drawing, a piece of paper called a map. Hey, why not print one up. Yonge and Avenue are considerably more complicated though, these are older areas of the city and the area has some unique landscape/environment features.

I hope this project is killed somehow but I some how doubt that will happen at this point, I was never a fan of the Spadina one and I think this one will end up being even worse.

^ mention to me how Spadina is 'bad.'

It gets in the way of his car.

Well I can't tell from the tone of your voice (on a message board), but I'll assume you read the last line where I said I actually like the spadina line very much and you're just replying...

Well, you "believe" incorrectly...the facts state that within 6 months of the line opening (Feb 1998), ridership increases on the new streetcar line were up 7% weekdays and 15% on weekends over the 77 Spadina bus and 510 Harbourfront Streetcar line it replaced.

And in case you think this is just do to higher ridership in general, forget it.... From mid-1997 to late May 1998, annual TTC system ridership increased by less than two percent.

I read some article a while back that talked about this. I think it was in the Toronto star actually... maybe whoever wrote it had an agenda. I can't recall when I read it as I tend to read a lot of news everyday and the search option on the Star website sucks, but it DID say that the ridership actually went down for almost a decade after, and that Bathurst was faster.

Yes...and do you know why they did that? ......this is one of those compromises that appease the CARS. They built the ROW to accomdate the streetcars, but they turned around and designed the intersections to accomodate the cars. The reason the stops are on the other side of the intersection, was to allow for exclusive left turn lanes for cars....this also increases route times because of the extra light just for left turn cars.

They should have gone all the way and designed it to accomodate the streetcars all the way. This is what they are going to do on St Clair too...and it's a shame these compromises are made at the expense of public transit. It should be the cars that have to compromise when these situations where you have public transit vs the car.

Oh I agree completely. Because cars need turning lanes they did this. I wonder why they didn't just phase out left turns like on Yonge St... Well I do know why (car lobby) but it's too bad.

Streetcars have definetely improved the stock of Spadina (Chinatown), because of their inherent superiority they bring with it....streetcars bring a greater sense of "permanence" to the streets they ply down....they bring more tourists...people like the ride better...they beautify the street, especially with the aestetic improvements that came with Spadina.

And the same thing will happen with St Clair, even though it was already streetcar.

I can agree with you on this one. Dedicated transit lines are a great idea and Toronto should do more of them.

I wish that they would have the balls to make a real bus-only throughfare on Yonge from Finch to Steeles. I commuted there for years, and I have to say that particular stretch of road is one of the slowest transit roads there is. The bus lanes always have cars and trucks parked in them and everything slows to a halt. Why do trucks always have to do deliveries during rush hour anyway?

I read some article a while back that talked about this. I think it was in the Toronto star actually... maybe whoever wrote it had an agenda. I can't recall when I read it as I tend to read a lot of news everyday and the search option on the Star website sucks, but it DID say that the ridership actually went down for almost a decade after


Well, what can I say....this info is straight from a Commision report to city hall dated June 1 1998. And there are other sources that say the same thing.

How could the ridership have gone down for "almost" a decade, when it's only been barely 9 years in operation as we speak (less depending on how long ago this Star article you imagine reading was published). Give me anything that might remotely support ridership drops ANYTIME on the 510 since it started.

And it's not like the Spadina bus was a dink line that was an easy ridership gain target...it was in fact one of the few profitable bus routes.






KGB

Well, what can I say....this info is straight from a Commision report to city hall dated June 1 1998. And there are other sources that say the same thing.

How could the ridership have gone down for "almost" a decade, when it's only been barely 9 years in operation as we speak (less depending on how long ago this Star article you imagine reading was published). Give me anything that might remotely support ridership drops ANYTIME on the 510 since it started.

And it's not like the Spadina bus was a dink line that was an easy ridership gain target...it was in fact one of the few profitable bus routes.






KGB


Well for 5+ years okay happy? Geez, must you hammer in every point? Should I start critizing your grammar now?

The point of the article that I read was that the Spadina line was one of the only good lines, and the streetcar wasn't able to capitalize on it. I wish I could find the article...

Well for 5+ years okay happy?


Like I said...give me anything other than your "I think I recall reading something" to back up your claim. I'm not saying you're wrong...just that there are actual facts that contradict it, and nothing to support it.





Geez, must you hammer in every point?


Hey...no need to get pissy. YOU made the claim...I'm only asking you to provide the slightest shred of evidence to back it up...that's more than fair. You have to take a little responsibility for what you say.






Should I start critizing your grammar now?

I don't see how that's going to help your cause. And it would be a fairly time-consuming hobby, as I'm sure I make plenty of them. As long as people get my drift, I really don't care.






KGB

It doesn't really matter what the ridership was initially, cuz right now the ridership Spadina streetcar is a huge improvement over the ridership of the Spadina bus: 41,000 boardings per weekday compared to 25,000, an increase of over 70%.

41,000 boardings per weekday? I would have thought Spadina would be higher.

If you haven't seen.
http://www.toronto.ca/wes/techservices/involved/transportation/st-clair_construction/cdcg/final_design_2005-05-30.pdf

41,000 boardings per weekday? I would have thought Spadina would be higher.

Well, Spadina is not a very long route to begin with, and there are only two bus/streetcar route that have more: Dufferin and King.

Ah, this makes sense. :)

A streetcar's capacity is what (guess) 110 to 130 so 41000 is damn impressive

What makes Spadina interesting is that it has a weekend ridership that is very similar to the weekday ridership. Most of the system has significantly lower ridership during weekends.

There's a lot of stuff in the paper about how people are "upset" about St. Clair ROW but I think it's mainly the BIAs and SOS people.

Mihevc is safe. I was up at Bathurst and Eglinton today where Sewell's offices are. I think he hopes he can win the well-to-do Jewish vote in that area. I don't think he will - by most accounts Mihevc has a great deal of support in the Jewish community.

^ the St. Clair (Corso Italia) BIA is known for being NOTORIOUSLY conservative. Shame too, because it really doesn't have much to show for. Overall, St. Clair is a pretty crappy major street. I never understood the 'Save our St. Clair' slogan -- what exactly was there to save? The street needs major re-working, that's a fact.

Most of the business owners in Corso Italia live in 905.

Most of the business owners in Corso Italia live in 905.

That would explain it. Sadly, I am not joking.

If you haven't seen.
http://www.toronto.ca/wes/techservices/involved/transportation/st-clair_construction/cdcg/final_design_2005-05-30.pdf

very nice renderings. How anyone can be against a quality $65 + Million investment in their neighbourhood is beyond me. SOS has wayy to much media attention.

Signs started going up today. Is there anyone in Wards 17 (Davenport north) or 21 (St. Paul's West) who has looked around? I think Mihevc is safe and Palacio (who opposes ROW) is going to be defeated by Alejandra Bravo. I guess we'll see how reflective SOS is of community opinion is on Nov. 14 but I'm very sure they're speaking for the BIAs and a vocal minority of residents.

All this really amounts to are certain people who are being inconvienced or the thought of it, that is fueling this. I am really hoping that this project continues with the idiots trying to stop it being embarassed into silence themselves.

Truly mind boggling that people who won't for a time, be being able to move their cars anywhere they want as improvements are being done on public transit. Short sighted fools are all too plentiful in our culture......

I work at various job sites thoughtout the GTA. Whenever I am required to drive downtown, I am thankfull to any form of PT for getting people out of their cars who don't need them.

I haven't been to Ward 21 yet, but I hear it is full of Mihevc signs, Adams has a scattering and so far Sewell has none.

I lived at St. Clair and Avenue Rd for a full year, and was fully in support of this project. The streetcar system truly needed to be upgraded, as that area is developing fast.

I lived at St. Clair West and Dufferin for 6 years, and I'm in full support. I guess it's cause we have bias, however my dad lives there right now and he supports the improved transit.