Build a new baseball stadium downtown ASAP. Bullfrogs drawing 2000+ at Joannes, that would be 3000-4000 in a new facility. Could hold concerts, high school football games, ice skating in winter. Build it with a sports bar. This is the one and only idea that would get the people who live on the outskirts and metro area's to come downtown, especially during the best weather of the year...June-Aug and that's the Bullfrogs season..!!

Is there a good site for it? I think we already determined that the S. Broadway harbor area S. of K&K is too small. What about on the East Side where the blue warehouse is? Personally, I'd love to see it on the river.

Is there a good site for it? I think we already determined that the S. Broadway harbor area S. of K&K is too small. What about on the East Side where the blue warehouse is? Personally, I'd love to see it on the river.

That site is way too small for a field. Plus parking would be an issue. I recall a plan not too long ago for development of senior housing that was presented showed how really small that site is.

By Jenn Karlman (GB Press Gazette)

"As the sun rose Monday, a building that stood empty for years near downtown Green Bay finally started coming down.
Piece by piece, boards and insulation and concrete broke apart, ending what many consider a dangerous shelter for the homeless.
"There's a commercial side of this project and then there's a human element, which is: A) This is really bad for the neighborhood; and B) It was really dangerous for the people who came," City Alder Celestine Jeffreys, who represents that neighborhood, said.
Police and fire departments say the abandoned brick structure at Broadway and Mather is unsafe, and they were concerned that it was being used for shelter.
Jeffreys pushed for this demolition for two years. Monday she was helping finish the project she started and building for the future.
"It means we get a decrepit piece of property out of the way and we can make way for some positive commercial development," Jeffreys said.
That development is already in the works. A new warehouse is planned, which means new tax dollars for the city and peace of mind for neighbors.
Nancy Rein lives across the street. "I know what a danger its been over the past, especially last few months since we had the major collapse here, so I'm glad to see it going and thinking now I don't have to think about people being hurt in there," she said.
The city turned the area into a TIF district, providing the money or the $100,000 demolition.
As the building comes down, not all of it is headed to the landfill. Some of the bricks are going to be used in future building projects and much of the concrete is going to be turned into gravel.
It's a major recycling project at the mercy of a giant bulldozer."

It's too bad they weren't describing the old mall. Maybe if the homeless start using the mall, the city will tear it down sooner then later.

It's too bad they weren't describing the old mall. Maybe if the homeless start using the mall, the city will tear it down sooner then later.

If that other relatively small building cost $100,000 to demolish, the mall would cost $millions, I suppose. Plus, I guess the city might be waiting to see which parts of the mall building can be reused by a developer, which I agree with (the alternative would be a street grid with more gutted, plywood-covered gaping holes like the part along Washington).

Baseball stadium
I do think a baseball stadium might JUST barely fit on that site near Mason St along the Fox RIver...Just barely, if say the outfield wall was built right up against the river (which would be kinda cool, home run splashdowns).Maybe I'll remeasure that again just to see.

One of my favorite pictures of Washington Street ran in the Press-Gazette a couple of years ago and so I saved it. It brings back fond memories of when I was a kid back in the 1960's and taking the East or West De Pere bus downtown with my siblings to do our Christmas shopping.


http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q28/westwinder/Pranges.jpg

One of my favorite pictures of Washington Street ran in the Press-Gazette a couple of years ago and so I saved it. \[/IMG]

I agree. Great photo. Great inspiration for the future maybe!?

Baseball Stadium: There are at least 9 concept sites around the Green Bay area that would work.

Looking at downtown first, you have corner of Mason and Broadway. There is enough room there for a ballpark in the 3000-4000 capacity range. In addition there are plenty of other pacels in that area in addition to street parking to accomodate.

Larsen Green Development. Slam dunk with plenty of room.

Port Plaza Mall site could work. Days Inn would have to go. See Toledo Mudhens website or Memphis Redbirds for Minor League downtown ballparks. Keep in mind Green Bay is a 3000-4000 capacity market, so a ballpark smaller in scale can be done.

Bay Beach Amusement Park. Build at corner of East Shore and North Irwin. (There is already a small softball field on the site) Ample space for parking.

Lambeau Field area. 3 locations stick out. First behind Favre's Steakhouse and just east of Champions Sports Bar. Second, parcel surrounded by Tony Canadeo Run, Bart Starr Drive and Reggie White Way. Third, at the corner of Hwy 41 and Lombardi Ave. The third being the largest parcel that could accomodate the most parking. Of course the other two locations have plenty of parking in the vicinity as well that are used for events at Resch Center.

Another riverfront possibility but south of downtown is parcel just south of National Railroad Museum, on the corner of South Broadway and Marina Lane. (Across the street from Fratello's, used as location for Terror on the Fox during Halloween)

Final option is new stadium at the current location Joannes Stadium. Parking and location are the issue there with parking having to be addressed if a new ballpark with 3000-4000 capacity were built.

Baseball Stadium: There are at least 9 concept sites around the Green Bay area that would work.
A couple of years back I suggested that when the Bullfrogs came to Green Bay instead of sticking all that money in the Johannes they should look at building downtown, its the blue collar crowd that will bring life back to the area. I thought the area just north of the Donald Tillmen Bridge would be a good spot.

http://newffl.net/gifs/ballpark2.jpg
http://newffl.net/gifs/ballpark.jpg

there we go...let's put a parking lot on prime real estate. come on guys. i like your idea but let's put some real thought into it. we just took out a parking garage a couple years ago that was on the waterfront. let's actaully learn from our mistakes. perhaps on the other side of broadway. sorry for the criticism but you want to make the same mistake that everyone here is complaining about. again, i really do like the idea otherwise though. i think you are right about the stadium location. that would be a very good spot being right next to a main arterial.

That site would work no doubt. The Bullfrogs needed to do what they have done at Joannes to bring baseball back to the sports scene in Green Bay. Without doing what they did, there is no hope of a baseball stadium leading the charge with regards to redevelopment of downtown. They now have the ammo they need to help make this project happen. Crowds of 2000+ at a very outdated facility speaks volumes to the types of crowds they could expect at a new facility downtown. Now they just have to make believers out of everyone that this baseball stadium is the last real hope for the downtown redevelopment to happen on a larger scale. IF the stadium get's built, then and only then do I feel projects like Astor Place, River Center, Larsen Green actually see the light of day..!!

The best part about considering the old mall location is that everything is right there within walking distance and it puts the final touches on the heart of downtown Green Bay. Everyone wants to see something considerable done with the old mall site. Something everyone can benefit from..!! A new baseball stadium is the PERFECT solution. Parking is abundant around this location as well.

there we go...let's put a parking lot on prime real estate. come on guys. i like your idea but let's put some real thought into it. we just took out a parking garage a couple years ago that was on the waterfront. let's actaully learn from our mistakes. perhaps on the other side of broadway. sorry for the criticism but you want to make the same mistake that everyone here is complaining about. again, i really do like the idea otherwise though. i think you are right about the stadium location. that would be a very good spot being right next to a main arterial.
Well if you have the stadium you then need the parking.

When considering the Mason/Broadway location, I agree..parking would be abundant on the west side of the railroad tracks. There is plenty of land in that area that could be converted to parking for the stadium. The best use of the extra land on the riverfront
would be to incorporate a boat dock, splash park or other types of "green space" to dress up the stadium area.

Later tonight, maybe I'll have a chance to drop in a scale model of a baseball stadium on this piece of property to see how it fits.

You know wwhat else would be cool? If the C Reiss coal piles on the other side of the Mason st bridge are ever moved downriver, the site could be turned into a complex of soccer fields. I'm personally not a big fan but it is huge with younger generation, and will continue to grow in popularity in the future. Someday GB might have some sort of minor league soccer --farm systems--wahtever these leagues are called....

Then you'd have something of a sports complex between the baseball arena on one side of mason and soccer fields on the other.,.

Just a thought......Not even my own....

ifyoubuildit-Welcome to the board and I am definately digging the discussion. It sounds as if you have put a lot of thought into potential parcels for a new stadium. Are you just a casual fan or do you actually have any ties to the team. Do you know the owner?

I agree with your comment that the Bullfrogs did what they had to to get baseball back in Green Bay. They are an asset to the community and a new stadium would make a big statement. I am not real knowledgeable on Joannes other than some reading and pics that I have seen. I understand that the current location does have potential, but seems sort of 'temporary' to me with the bleacher seating, press box, though there appears to be some nice things there. I realize that the team is new, and one cannot judge the game day atmosphere without attending a game there, but purely on aesthetics, Joannes pales in comparison to other facilities in the league including Copeland Park in La Crosse and Warner Park in Madison.

A downtown location would be without a doubt the best place for a development like this and can set Green Bay apart from other communities. It brings another entertainment option that can be family orientated, increases foot traffic and spending at other establishments. It fits the urban theme of being able to have easy, walking access to points of interest, and yes, it will be a draw. How cool would it be to have this on the west side of the river with an increasing skyline (I am staying optimistic that we will get there) in the backdrop. Maybe some nice brick work with rounded windows like Miller Park (obviously a much smaller scale) and some wrought iron fencing by the entrance.

Does anyone know if there has actually been any discussions with the owner/city about a stadium downtown? I thought that I had heard once that he is the type of gentlemen that has his sights set high and will have big plans for the future. Unless Joannes will be permanent, would it be better to hold off on further improvements and invest that money into something new.
Thoughts?

The point in the end is that the timing is perfect for this concept to grab hold and become reality..!! The other project being proposed downtown are for the most part dead. Not even the City Deck is fully funded and these project have been discussed at length of over 3 years.

The Bullfrogs are more than doing their part and now the others involved with the
redevelopment of downtown need to wrap their arms around this idea and move ahead with it. We are still talking 2010 at the VERY soonest and 2011 or later is more likely.

Having followed the Bullfrogs the past two years they are already outgrowing Joannes and most teams don't hit full stride until years 4-5. If the cards are played correctly a new facility could be in place when that happens.

The Bullfrogs have done plenty to improve Joannes already and they are still a growing franchise. The Bullfrogs, the city of Green Bay and Northeastern Wisconsin deserve a better facility moving forward to enjoy this great summertime activity and now is the time to make it happen in the heart of downtown..!

I don't see the parking west of the tracks that someone mentioned. I don't think he mall site is the best place for it. The Larsen area would have possibility.

http://newffl.net/gifs/ballpark3.jpg

Most of the time parking issues take care of themselves. There are a number of very old buildings in that area that could be coverted to parking. The new stadium would spur further development meaning most of the old in that area would be torn down to accomodate the new. With that comes additional parking options. Plenty of street parking to use short term as well.

Plenty of possibilities-now if a proposal were made. What would the cost of a 3,000-4,000 seat stadium roughly be?

it depends on what size of gem you want to build. right now in omaha, they are months away from building a new College World Series stadium and it will be in the realm of 20,000-25,000 capacity for the amount of 180-200 Million. a minor league in Omaha also wants to build a stadium with a 7000 capacity with room to expand to 10,000 and they are looking at 37-42 million

Those parks are much bigger than what GB needs. GB is a 3000-5000 capacity market. A downtown ballpark would warrant a minimum of $6 million and depending on the amount of bells and whistles...year round Sports/Bar, Multi use factors, as high as $10-15 million..?? This price range would give GB one heck of a facility to showcase and lay the foundation for the rest of the developments to take shape.

This might be of interest:

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/ballpark/page.jsp?ymd=20050630&content_id=13591&vkey=ballpark_t484&fext=.jsp&sid=t484

Indy is one of dozens of markets that had a ballpark kick off the revitalization of a dead downtown. Will Green Bay step up to the plate..??

What about building a baseball stadium on Renard Isle at Bay Beach. Have the whole stadium and parking lot surrounded by the bay. Then when someone hits a Homerun they can call it "Splash with a Rash." I really do wish that the park was near Leicht Park by Titletown Brewery. Today I drove thru Dubuque, Iowa. It is sort of an older city, but there is plenty of newer buildings going up. The city is less then 60,000 people and it looked bigger then Green Bay. I was impressed with the newer developments going on near the mighty Mississippi.

http://www.americasriver.com

Most of the time parking issues take care of themselves. There are a number of very old buildings in that area that could be coverted to parking. The new stadium would spur further development meaning most of the old in that area would be torn down to accomodate the new. With that comes additional parking options. Plenty of street parking to use short term as well.

The focus seems to be on the west side of the river. With so many parking ramps on the east side, using a portion of the mall site could potentially leverage those & allow a stadium to be built on a smaller footprint. Of course you have to have some parking lot (hard to tailgate in a ramp) but realistically most people aren't doing that. My understanding is that most of these games are in the evening, correct? (haven't been to one yet) Thinking of my own schedule, if I was going to go to a mid-week game at night, it would be a struggle just to get home from work, grab the wife, go find a place to park, & get in. Using the existing ramps would be perfect, especially considering that they dont' get much (any?) use at night.

Between something like that & the proposed federal courthouse on the mall site, those would be two nice larger scale structures, with the ability to have some smaller infill development to grow around them.

One last question--there has been quite a bit of discussion about a stadium downtown on this board, but it's the only place I've heard it. Is this based in fact or just "what-if's"?

one of the links posted recently reminded me of something I wanted to bring up a while ago -

Thinking longer-term, what about a downtown aquarium? I've been to a few around the country, & they are usually pretty cool. Something like that near the museum on the west side of the river, along with a downtown stadium & children's museum (eventually) could really make a nice family vacation destination, weekend getaway, etc.

How cool would it be to have this on the west side of the river with an increasing skyline (I am staying optimistic that we will get there) in the backdrop.
Thoughts?

I'm still working on the site configuration of the "Brownfield/Greenfield" site just N of Mason along the River, and the ONLY way you could fit a stadium in there would be to align Home Plate and Center Field on an angle such that the batter woudl face the "skyline" (the courthouse) towards the NE. I think that could be a sort of cool view from the bleachers behind home plate and the dugouts.

There are a number of very old buildings in that area that could be coverted to parking.......most of the old in that area would be torn down to accomodate the new......
Probably none of these "old buildings" you speak of tearing down are significant, so I don't really mind......however I do cringe a bit when people justify tearing down a buildiong just because it's old. But again, probably not a big deal here.

I do welcome you to the discussion, glad you could join us.

one of the links posted recently reminded me of something I wanted to bring up a while ago -

Thinking longer-term, what about a downtown aquarium? I've been to a few around the country, & they are usually pretty cool. Something like that near the museum on the west side of the river, along with a downtown stadium & children's museum (eventually) could really make a nice family vacation destination, weekend getaway, etc.

I think we discussed this on this thread some time ago. I think this could work. However aquariums are something that the locals might go to once a year at best. Somehow it woul dhave to tie into the tourist crowd, people visiting for a weekend of Packers, Bay Beach, RR Museum, etc. But since these things I just mentioned are all so spread out, how do you bring in an aquarium downtown?

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The optimal location for home plate is in the south west corner of a proposed lot. Northwest corner works as well. The Mason/Broadway location would certainly call for a south west location. The seating bowl would face directly towards Nicolet Bank and heart of downtown.

A North west location for home plate would work best at the Larsen Green location. The seating bowl would then face directly at proposed Astor Place.

The Port Plaza Mall location would have home plate located in south west corner of the site. I have some drawings but for some reason I can't include attachments yet..??

I think we discussed this on this thread some time ago. I think this could work. However aquariums are something that the locals might go to once a year at best. Somehow it woul dhave to tie into the tourist crowd, people visiting for a weekend of Packers, Bay Beach, RR Museum, etc. But since these things I just mentioned are all so spread out, how do you bring in an aquarium downtown?

I'm not sure if I buy this. Anyone coming to the city as a tourist is going to have a car. Driving from Ashwaubenon to downtown is a 10 minute drive. Realistically, there's no way someone could hit all of the venues you mentioned (bay beach, railroad museum, etc.) without driving around the city anyway, so why would going downtown be any different?

I tend to believe that something like an aquarium is somewhat "off the radar screen" of many tourists, unles it is somehow grouped or clustered together so you get that "symbiotic relationship", even if they have a car. A family who may not be very familiar with Green Bay might not be as apt to drive all over to 5 diferent spread out destinations, they tend to just hit one or two destinations in a visit to the city. However, if things are clustered together, you can have the "park once" opportunity where a family can hit a bunch of venues in one shot. So for example people who come to town primarily for the Packers practice might also take some time to hit the Hall of Fame and some nearby stores along Oneida St. If the aquarium was close enough to the stadium, I would imagine you'd get more people branching off to hit the aquarium...Mom might be totally into practice but Dad and the kids might get bored and see an aquarium nearby and say, hey! let's walk over there for a while. That sort of thing. Perhaps, though, an aquarium downtown might play off of the museum and stuff. It's one of the things I love about cities like Chicago--the museum, aquarium, stadium, shops, parks, restaurants, waterfront, etc are all within an easy walk of one another, and that really helps each one thrive..that symbiotic relationship thing. For a small city like GB I think this is even more important to have, especially for things like museums and aquariums and stuff the general folk may not make a destination in and of itself (as I said, these things are barely on the radar screen for many folks) but may be more likely to visit if it's near some other more popular attractions. Know what I mean? Anyone agree with this or am I all full of it?

A baseball stadium is the last hope for downtown it's that simple. Everything else worthy has been done and none of them reside downtown..!! What else could possibly be done downtown that on 34+ nights over the course of the summer will draw crowds upwards of 5000..?? The additional multi use features that could be incorporated in to the design would bring additional people to the area year around. There is simply nothing else that can be done downtown that would accompolish that. A baseball stadium is the golden ticket..!!

All right! I'm sold on the idea. Actually GBM had me sold a while ago. So who knows someone who can make this actually happen?

Guy Zima?:lol: I am stoked on the idea as well and it would be a great addition to downtown, though I have to agree with Jerky and Puant-has this been in discussion with the owner/city? I mentioned doing this on the downtown survey and am wondering if others did as well.

ifyoubuildit-Did you figure out how to post those pics yet? Maybe you would want to forward your ideas to the Bullfrogs owner?

I have to say I'm really enjoying this conversation about a stadium downtown. What is the general consensus though about the location? Leicht Park (Larson Development) or just North of Mason?

I have to say I'm really enjoying this conversation about a stadium downtown. What is the general consensus though about the location? Leicht Park (Larson Development) or just North of Mason?

New Green Bay Baseball Stadium options..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Baseball Stadium: There are at least 9 concept sites around the Green Bay area that would work.

Looking at downtown first, you have corner of Mason and Broadway. There is enough room there for a ballpark in the 3000-4000 capacity range. In addition there are plenty of other pacels in that area in addition to street parking to accomodate.

Larsen Green Development. Slam dunk with plenty of room.

Port Plaza Mall site could work. Days Inn would have to go. See Toledo Mudhens website or Memphis Redbirds for Minor League downtown ballparks. Keep in mind Green Bay is a 3000-4000 capacity market, so a ballpark smaller in scale can be done.

Bay Beach Amusement Park. Build at corner of East Shore and North Irwin. (There is already a small softball field on the site) Ample space for parking.

Lambeau Field area. 3 locations stick out. First behind Favre's Steakhouse and just east of Champions Sports Bar. Second, parcel surrounded by Tony Canadeo Run, Bart Starr Drive and Reggie White Way. Third, at the corner of Hwy 41 and Lombardi Ave. The third being the largest parcel that could accomodate the most parking. Of course the other two locations have plenty of parking in the vicinity as well that are used for events at Resch Center.

Another riverfront possibility but south of downtown is parcel just south of National Railroad Museum, on the corner of South Broadway and Marina Lane. (Across the street from Fratello's, used as location for Terror on the Fox during Halloween)

Final option is new stadium at the current location Joannes Stadium. Parking and location are the issue there with parking having to be addressed if a new ballpark with 3000-4000 capacity were built.

My vote is for the site on the west side of the river just north of Mason for various reasons. The DTGB survey showed overwhelming interest in the Fox waterfront, this site takes full advantage of that. Home run splashdowns into the river, the ability for recreational boaters to take a boat to the ballgame. Imagine the views, from the stadium you'd see the water and the little bit of decent skyline we have. Imagine being at the ballgame when a huge freighter passes right behind center field. Imagine even for the drivers crusing over Mason St bridge looking down into a stadium lit up full of people instead of the dreary empty brownfield site that's they look down upon now. This site is close enough to broadway district to tie in well to the downtown. Maybe if we ever got some water taxis it could tie into the east side of the downtown as well. Also there is even parking. The potential downside is the RR tracks so close, also it would be a tight fit into the site (though i'm conviced a 5000 seat ballpark would fit on this site). Plus as I mentioned before, there is future opportunity if the C Reiss coal piles ever get moved downriver, there could be more sports fields (soccer or whatever) built on the other side of the bridge.

My #2 site would be the Larsen cannery site if it can fit in somewhere there.

I saw the site plan for the brownfield site that was drawn up in 2003, it's sort of a harbor with retail and dining kind of thing. Honestly, I don't really see the point of it with other nearby areas, a baseball stadium would be a lot cooler in the space. Imagine taking your boat to the game!

The stadium has to go downtown or we are shooting ourselves in the foot all over again as I've said in many posts back.....DT needs a signature structure. One that appeals to locals and tourists. One that could bring 2000+ people DT multiple nights a season or year round. Sounething for all ages but not just for kids and not just for drinkers and not just for shoppers,etc....a broad base of appeal.

If this stadium were built anywhere outside of DT then all hope is lost because the 'spread offense' Green Bay has been running for the last few decades is no longer scoring points!

The location on broadway is slamdunk perfect. The views of the maturing skyline....the ships passing by...boaters docked outside the outfield fence......you have a festive,high energy district with the broadway bars and shops......I mean..I could go on and on about the benefits. It would be that centerpiece that starts to tie all of these things together.

It could hold a few classic rock concerts each summer. All kinds of things. Fireworks....you name it.

If someone has access to the owner of the Bullfrogs, and if he's interested in the brownfield site, tell him that he needs to move on it quickly.

Going back to read some other posts re: parking.

There is parking on the eastside....would it be horrible to have people walk over walnut st bridge to the stadium? How far of a walk is it from the outlying lots at Miller Park? It's a bit of a hike. Where is that that you always see mobs of people walking over bridges to and from games....???..is it Pittsburgh I'm thinking of?

I guess what I'm saying is...we don't need to have fans park w/i 2 feet of the homeplate gate. In July I'd think fans could walk a few blocks. Would do the locals some good.

Maybe have some watertaxi's? How about a stadium trolly-bus making continous loops?

Lots of little things could be done to make up a whole solution.

Heck....people walk a mile down from Lambeau in Dec. don't they?

Nah,parking shouldn't be a concern. It's clearly not a worry in Ashwaubenon.

You could get several hundred spaces in and around the park I'm sure. We are only talking about a 4500 cap. park. Maybe a 2 level ramp incorporated into the park design with a 'bullfrogs experience' on the ground level?

Man,so much could be done..so much.

Sure I go on vacation and all this baseball stadium talk explodes. So I have been at Disney the last week and have seen the worst case parking problems-btw I'm not sure about the economy, all the parks are still plenty busy. I tend to agree with Puant about clustering destinations. We have a rental car but have mostly used the bus to get to the parks, driving/parking has been a hassle. I tend to think that I am pretty good at reading maps and directions but somehow I made a wrong turn and we ended up in Celebration FL. Not sure if anyone has heard of it but the whole town is I'm guseeing a new urbanist community. pretty neat... anyways I think a lot, I mean a lot of parking issues can be resolved with a trolley/bus loop downtown. I think we all tend to believe that the east side is loaded with parking and the west is lacking, well if we had a very frequent trolley route and people became comfortable using it, parking would no longer be considered an issue.

On the staduim issue, I tend to agree that the Mason Braodway site would be the coolest- however that area seems to be the least desirable in relationship to co-mingling people in downtown. I see it as a park your car and go to a game - go home setting. One thing disney is great at is after each ride/attraction they dump you in the gift shop. A new downtown stadium would be better set up as to "dump you in the gift shop" so to speak and encourage people to walk by a coffee/ candy/ bakery/ whatever could use a few of those thousands of people to stop in.

I could go on but I have to get going...Hollywood studios today. (MGM)

I tend to believe that something like an aquarium is somewhat "off the radar screen" of many tourists, unles it is somehow grouped or clustered together so you get that "symbiotic relationship", even if they have a car. A family who may not be very familiar with Green Bay might not be as apt to drive all over to 5 diferent spread out destinations, they tend to just hit one or two destinations in a visit to the city. However, if things are clustered together, you can have the "park once" opportunity where a family can hit a bunch of venues in one shot. So for example people who come to town primarily for the Packers practice might also take some time to hit the Hall of Fame and some nearby stores along Oneida St. If the aquarium was close enough to the stadium, I would imagine you'd get more people branching off to hit the aquarium...Mom might be totally into practice but Dad and the kids might get bored and see an aquarium nearby and say, hey! let's walk over there for a while. That sort of thing. Perhaps, though, an aquarium downtown might play off of the museum and stuff. It's one of the things I love about cities like Chicago--the museum, aquarium, stadium, shops, parks, restaurants, waterfront, etc are all within an easy walk of one another, and that really helps each one thrive..that symbiotic relationship thing. For a small city like GB I think this is even more important to have, especially for things like museums and aquariums and stuff the general folk may not make a destination in and of itself (as I said, these things are barely on the radar screen for many folks) but may be more likely to visit if it's near some other more popular attractions. Know what I mean? Anyone agree with this or am I all full of it?


I agree with pretty much everything you said. As far as the "off the radar" part...absolutely. I'm dreaming here. By the time they would consider something like that, HOPEFULLY other things in the area would already exist. Things like the children's museum, current museum, maybe a stadium, more retail on the east side. In that case, we would have that clustering of attractions.

As long as we're dreaming, what about relocating Bay Beach downtown? From what I hear, it can be sketchy now, with gang activity & stuff. Some things, like the big pavilion, obviously couldn't be moved, but that could also tie in with the sports park idea downtown too..

As far as the baseball stadium, I'm a little surprised at the interest in the west side/mason side. It would be a cool site, but it seems a little removed from what's currently being developed. I HATE the idea of "saving" the mall site for future development when we have no idea when/if it's going to happen. A stadium dead-center in the middle of what's going on TODAY would be great. Tell me that wouldn't be incentive for other businesses to develop. Just like the "dump them in the gift shop" comment, tons of businesses would want to take advantage of those 3000-5000 crowds every game. Not to mention, there are probably plenty of young people ready to buy that could be swayed to live downtown with something like that..

As much as I would like to see the stadium on the built up east side, I would much rather see the street grid restored on the mall site. Put a stadium on the Larson site with home plate facing what we are forced to say is our skyline. There is plenty of parking within 5 blocks of that site and I would think that would lead to further development on the east side. I can just imagine what that night would be like. Grab dinner at a restaurant on the river and eat on the city deck. Then take a nice walk across the bridge and watch some baseball, then maybe on the way back hit up one of the bars for a night cap.

The Mason/Broadway site is a block or two further from the core's center than you would like, but that's where the brownfield opportunity is. I've supported that site all along because of the views it would provide. Although I have to admit I laughed pretty hard at the Renard Isle comment ("splash with a rash?").

The Port Plaza and Larsen Green areas seem too commercially valuable, and we want the street grid back in at both sites.


Also, American Foods Group is relocating its executive offices to 500 S. Washington St. (formerly the Haberdasher Limited). The more of that we see, the better the chance that new office construction will take place downtown.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20081031/GPG03/81031113/1978

Okay, I guess I'll wade in here.

Regarding the baseball stadium: First, we need to put what such a facility would do in it's proper context. Such places are no a panacea for all that ails our downtown. To be sure, they can help, but they function in a very specific way and can only help to a certain degree. For instance, the Meyer Theater brings a similar number of people down as what a stadium would. Now, it's beyond doubt that the Meyer a a key addition to the downtown, but it is hardly a cure-all. Same could be said of the KI Center. I guess my point is that to claim that a baseball stadium would be some magical savior overstates the point, and to state that the downtown can only succeed if we have a stadium is an even greater overstatement.

Second, and I think I've stated this before, I like the current location of the stadium, and if a new facility were to be built, I'm not at all sure that I'd want it somewhere else. My dream for the city is not only to see a revitalized downtown, but also to see the near-downtown neighborhoods revitalized. Having a hub at the east end of Walnut serves quite a large residential area, and isn't so far from the heart of downtown that downtown residents couldn't get back and forth easily. If it were to go anywhere else, the Mason/Broadway site seems good.

Ifyoubuildit stated that "Not even the City Deck is fully funded and these project have been discussed at length of over 3 years," but we must keep in mind that a new stadium is zero percent funded. And funding it would be a trick, too, because A) the city of Green Bay doesn't like to invest money in anything (sometimes that's good and sometimes that's bad), B) The Bullfrogs are doing well, but building them a 4,000 seat stadium is a riskier proposition than building Fox Cities Stadium was for a 40 year old professional team, and C) projecting attendance at a new facility is somewhat tricky because prices would almost certainly rise to offset the cost not only of the facility itself, but also the operations of a more sophisticated facility.

Look, if something like this could come together, it would help the downtown a lot and I'd be one of the first people in line to support it if the financial package backing it was right. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it should just be put into its proper perspective. It would be an anchor to be sure, but Astor Place (or something like it) isn't going to be suddenly sold-out because there's a Northwoods League team playing downtown. At the same time, it would not function in the same way as something like the CityDeck (which I am thrilled to see starting because it will fill the single biggest current physical need of the downtown, a signature gathering space). And certainly, the downtown can succeed in the absence of a stadium.

So, in the words of Forrest Gump, that's all I have to say about that.

I may be bias towards a baseball stadium but anyone, I repeat anyone who thinks the City Deck will be a community wide "signature gathering space" is dreaming and too put the City Deck and it's appeal to the general public in the same category as the Bullfrogs, Northwoods League or Triple AAA is comparing apples and rotten oranges..!!

The only way the city deck will ever have a substantial amount of people on it...on a regular basis will be if there are 34+ Bullfrogs games downtown. Meyer Theatre and a new baseball stadium comparison is also far fetched. There is a unique atmosphere of a baseball stadium that simply can not be replicated by any indoor facility during the summer months..!! Think of the baseball stadium the city could have built for $12 million dollars and too think this city deck willl have a bigger impact to the entire community versues a baseball stadium with Bullfrogs games, concerts, high school football games, soccer tournaments etc, etc, is CRAZY..!!

I would badly like to see a new stadium downtown, but I agree with Danillo on this one. A stadium would be a wonderful thing and will most definately help, but it serves a certain purpose to a a certain demographic. CityDeck will appeal more to a wider range of people, have more availability as far as seasons go (skating rink, tree lighting in the winter, ice sculptures, winter park etc.) and won't cost people anything. With that said, I am not saying that City Deck will have more impact, nor is Danillo. No, you cannot compare the two because people can't have a casual lunch at a stadium (during the work week), fish, or have Wi-Fi, concerts, roller blade and so forth. All that is being said is we need something like this since there is really no other type of plaza available downown for these needs. The CityDeck will be an asset as would a stadium and we need to support this development.

I am glad to hear about American Foods Group and loved the quote that made mention of the new offices being part of the continued redevelopment downtown and that the city has been cooperative. We need this and glad to hear the city was cooperative and proactive.

Now, I don't want to be critical, but 500 S. Washington isn't one of those one-story suburban type of offices are they? Beggars can't be choosers, but I sure wish there was a more significant (urban) type of structure there. I wonder if they were in contact with T Wall, though it sounds as if this move had to take place in a short amount of time.

The only way the city deck will ever have a substantial amount of people on it...on a regular basis will be if there are 34+ Bullfrogs games downtown. Meyer Theatre and a new baseball stadium comparison is also far fetched. There is a unique atmosphere of a baseball stadium that simply can not be replicated by any indoor facility during the summer months..!! Think of the baseball stadium the city could have built for $12 million dollars and too think this city deck willl have a bigger impact to the entire community versues a baseball stadium with Bullfrogs games, concerts, high school football games, soccer tournaments etc, etc, is CRAZY..!!

Ifyoubuildit, it seems like you have a direct interest in the city building a stadium. I'm not looking for your name, but can you say what or how you would benefit or what role you might play in this new park?

If someone has access to the owner of the Bullfrogs, and if he's interested in the brownfield site, tell him that he needs to move on it quickly.

I have discussed this with him in the past. I know he found it interesting but he has sunk so much into the "jo" right now I don't see him pulling up stakes very soon unless someone else was interested in building it. I will ask him stop by this forum with his two cents.

I tend to think that I am pretty good at reading maps and directions but somehow I made a wrong turn and we ended up in Celebration FL. Not sure if anyone has heard of it but the whole town is I'm guseeing a new urbanist community. pretty neat...

Wrong turn -- right. :)

I may be bias towards a baseball stadium but anyone, I repeat anyone who thinks the City Deck will be a community wide "signature gathering space" is dreaming and too put the City Deck and it's appeal to the general public in the same category as the Bullfrogs, Northwoods League or Triple AAA is comparing apples and rotten oranges..!!

I agree with you on city deck, with the downtown being as dead as it is, offers ntohing for families, the city deck is not going to be drawing people there. Now if the Childrens museum gets built "IF" is the key there that will help, but the downtown still needs more than a few bars and resturants to attract people. They have something on the west side they call the Leicht Park festival groiunds or something like that again a great oppurtuinity that they have done nothing with. This town seems to run on one thinking, build something, keep it simple and plain, give it a name and people will flock to it. There has to be a reason for people to go there and downtown just does not offer that.

Think of the baseball stadium the city could have built for $12 million dollars and too think this city deck willl have a bigger impact to the entire community versues a baseball stadium with Bullfrogs games, concerts, high school football games, soccer tournaments etc, etc, is CRAZY..!!I said that a long time ago that the $12,000,000 could have been used to build a stadium. Hell they could take 1/2 of it buld a stadium and used the rest for a "deck" at the stadium. It would have provided more use than what we are getting now. A deck by some ugly buildings.

My goal here is simple..to get folks like yourselves excited, build momentum and get a grass roots of sorts campaign for the importance of trying to get this baseball stadium built in downtown Green Bay...I'm trying to shed light that we have the best solution right under our noses and we need folks in discussions like this to understand what this project would bring to the entire long term scope of the downtown redevelopment. Though the Bullfrogs have spent money at Joannes...(they had too..!!) there is no doubt in my mind they are and will continue to outgrow Joannes, so the timing is perfect for the powers that be and the community in general to speak out and become a force in attempting to make this downtown park realtiy. If there were other projects possible that could have the same effect, I'd be all for the Bullfrogs staying and doing what they need to do at Joannes. But that's my point.....there are no other projects that could or will have the same effect as a first class, beautifully design ballpark in the heart of downtown to showcase and lead the redevelpoment charge forward.

How cool would smaller version of this new ballpark in Allentown, PA be in downtown Green Bay..!!

http://www.veoh.com/videos/v16406196qKNreQY6

There's also a cool video review of Modern Woodmen Ballpark in the Quad Cities. It's built on a location very similar to the Brownfield location in Green Bay by Mason Street Bridge.

http://www.veoh.com/videos/v16251564AAWQYZ2f

^^Got any ideas how to pay for it?

Things like the downtown YMCA and other "community amenities" were paid for in massive public fund drives. At least this is how a lot of things got done 80 years or so ago. Nowadays these things are paid for largely with taxes. We're pretty well taxed out with our hotel taxes going towards the KI convention center, Resch center.

Our sales tax is of course tapped by the Packers (although that will likely end in 2015 or 2016--would anyone go along with extending it to pay for a new baseball stadium? Not likely in my opinion).

Seems we're pretty well all-taxed-out. Meanwhile, wages are flat, there is rising unemployment, the economy in in shambles.....

I know this is supposed to be an optimistic board but let's be real...things ain't going so well right now, there just isn't a lot of money going around for a new baseball stadium. Probably the only hope is if a major community donor comes along and pays for most of the up-front costs. I don't know anyone with that sort of money and interests. Do you?

What are the options? Have you given this any thought ifyoubuildit? Joanne's is owned by the city, right? So. If the construction of the stadium were publicly financed (bonds or taxes) then would the Bullfrogs lease it from the city? I honestly have no idea how this works. For that matter, who owns Lambeau? Personally, I think a public fund drive would be cool, why don't we ever do that anymore? It would be a massive buy-in by thousands of potential fans and could contribute to the success of the team and project by making people feel invested. Just imagine kids selling lemonade to raise money for a baseball stadium, that strikes me as very American. 6,000,000 divided by 100,000 is $60 on average, I think that's imminently doable.

Decades ago my Grandma was involved in building a community center at the Watts Towers in LA and I still have a certificate that says that I own 1 sq. ft of the Watts Community Center. Unfortunately I'd be too terrified to actually go there and visit it, but that's a different story.

ps. The recession is official now, for what it's worth.

Personally, I think a public fund drive would be cool, why don't we ever do that anymore? It would be a massive buy-in by thousands of potential fans and could contribute to the success of the team and project by making people feel invested. Just imagine kids selling lemonade to raise money for a baseball stadium, that strikes me as very American. 6,000,000 divided by 100,000 is $60 on average, I think that's imminently doable.

We have a lot of fund drives for United Way and other worthy things, but not much that I can think of for public facilities, at least not in recent times. It would be interesting to try this. I think you could look to the metro area for support, so you'd have a population more like 250,000 to draw upon. Of course only a small percentage of our total population would be even remotely interested in putting their money on a baseball stadium, but if we could get even a few large donors to start with I think there is a good chance to get smaller ones to contribute whatever they could. I do think that it's doable. Lots of people love baseball around here but it's so overshadowed by football. If any sort of fund drive was started, I'd be willing to help out (more in terms of effort since I don't have much money to contribute...)

ShopKo Express opens up its downtown location tomorrow.

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BTW, my name is Green Bay Sponge. I'm also interested in the development of our fair city. I currently live on the west side near West High School. I am also interested in the history of Green Bay, where we're going, where we've been, where we'll go in the future. My favorite cartoon is SpongeBob SquarePants, hence my avatar and user name. One of the things I personally like about the city Green Bay is its long and rich history.

ShopKo Express opens up its downtown location tomorrow.

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BTW, my name is Green Bay Sponge. I'm also interested in the development of our fair city. I currently live on the west side near West High School. I am also interested in the history of Green Bay, where we're going, where we've been, where we'll go in the future. My favorite cartoon is SpongeBob SquarePants, hence my avatar and user name. One of the things I personally like about the city Green Bay is its long and rich history.


Welcome! I wasn't sure if we'd welcomed you to this thread before, but in case not, I'll be the first. I really do enjoy getting multiple perspectives on things. It's great to see many differnt people interested in these things.

Wrong turn -- right. :)
OK OK- I knew about it and it was going to be a scheduled visit but I really did make a wrong turn. I refuse to buy a garmin...
We went back a few days later, in the day this time and I took a ton of pics of houses that we really liked, my wife was amazed that there were so many pleasant neighborhood spaces, playgrounds and trails all with very minimal dead end streets. The housing stock all very diverse with NO ranch houses that are to be found here, really NONE. All (most) the garages are accessed via alley and the house fronts all have wonderful porches and sidewalks. This is an example of a smart compact neighborhood that we need here- I know that these are not true urban ideas but they go a long way at containing sprawl- and I know that there are people that like the idea of there own private refuge, I am not one of those. I like my free time and do not want to maintain a huge yard. With small kids an urban studio is just not practical. I love public spaces and am willing to pay extra taxes for someone else to maintain them. Sorry to be so long winded. But I really liked the NEV or neighborhood electric vehicles that were all over.

I said that a long time ago that the $12,000,000 could have been used to build a stadium. Hell they could take 1/2 of it buld a stadium and used the rest for a "deck" at the stadium. It would have provided more use than what we are getting now. A deck by some ugly buildings.
I feel that this statement really is quite short sighted. I agree that 12 million for a deck is extremely outrageous. What we are trying to build is place, an identity. You are 100% correct that a deck is not going to attract anyone without some places to draw people. With another example fresh in my mind- Downtown Disney is really just a deck- if you think about it, it meanders around a body of water and is fronted by stores and restaurants. We went there several nights and there were really just people hanging out on benches and terraces and there were families eating ice cream and popcorn and of course there were tourists shopping and taking pictures- hardly a comparable example but the infrastructure is really just a deck.
Have an open mind with this City Deck idea and maybe you might be surprised. If we half-asses this like the festival grounds we might just as well be sitting on a uninspired "deck". I really have no idea about what the final product will look like but I am willing to give it a chance.

....I love public spaces and am willing to pay extra taxes for someone else to maintain them.....

Well, if more people were living in well-designed, more compact but still cozy places (like Celebration is and most towns in America used to be), we'd have less sprawl. Less sprawl means city services don't have to be as spread out. That would mean significantly less taxes required to run basic city services. So in the end, taxes to maintain quality public spaces like parks and public squares would be a PITTANCE compared to the taxes required to run the overextended fire, police, garbage, school, transportation, and other services spread out across miles & miles.

P.S. --- Isn't the whole Disney thing ironic when you really think about it?

America used to be full of walkable towns and high quality public spaces, scaled for humans....until we sold out to cars and let them take over our towns--turning everything into highways, parking lots, big ass garages and the like.
But then, we so miss our comfortable old walkable towns and high quality public spaces--so we flock to artificial "towns" like Main Street Disney and Epcot which are designed just like our old main streets used to be.

Disney of course has rides but its popularity is also largely the quality of the built environment around them..check this out.. (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2008/03/what-can-we-learn-from-walt-disney.html)

GBSurveyor-- I'm not trying to be a dick when I say this... I'm just pointing out the irony of our society in general....Our family went there when I was a kid in about 1978, and My wife and I took our kids there a couple years ago and we all had a great time. Hope you're having a great time with your family as well!!

GBSurveyor, the deck's designed by StoSS, and landscape architecture firm in Boston. I'm pretty sure that Vetter helped select them back in the day, in any case they were a pretty inspired choice, because the plan will be pretty unique. It's not a typical boardwalk, you can see some renderings here (http://www.stoss.net/fox.html). I agree that it's not going to be a success unless some compelling, family-oriented things are built along the East bank.

GBSurveyor-- I'm not trying to be a dick when I say this... I'm just pointing out the irony of our society in general....Our family went there when I was a kid in about 1978, and My wife and I took our kids there a couple years ago and we all had a great time. Hope you're having a great time with your family as well!!

No offense taken... I know what you are talking about. We have been looking to move for the last few years but I am not about move to some sub standard placeless subdivision out in Howard just to get a bigger yard/garage.

I really would like to move into the City core, however at this point I dont think it is feasible. Althought my wife and I differ on what we want in a new house we certainlly agree on a safe walkable neighborhood. Much of the central or near downtown area is too heavily rental to become the stable neighborhood we want to be in. My push is to get some decent "greenfield" developments rollin. Every realtor I talk to mentions that the people want the huge yards and the 3 stall garage. I have to believe that there are other out there that would choose a different setting if it were offered. I dont know.

Anyways thanks Nativist, I know about Stoss- I was at a lot of the early meetings. I am putting my faith behind the "City Deck" and hope that the infill follows. I have this feeling that the mass population is having a hard time visulizing the final product and expects this to literally be a wooded deck. Whatever- I think I wasted enough of my time talking about it.

There is always the possibility of holding farmers markets on the City Deck when it would be completed, or other events to get the use out of it. Its a start.

P.S. --- Isn't the whole Disney thing ironic when you really think about it?

America used to be full of walkable towns and high quality public spaces, scaled for humans....until we sold out to cars and let them take over our towns--turning everything into highways, parking lots, big ass garages and the like.
But then, we so miss our comfortable old walkable towns and high quality public spaces--so we flock to artificial "towns" like Main Street Disney and Epcot which are designed just like our old main streets used to be.

Wow -- that IS ironic and I'm surprised I never thought about that. Excellent point, Puant.

Here is an architectural review of Celebration that you may enjoy. (http://www.slate.com/id/2113107/slideshow/2113258/fs/0//entry/2113259/) A bit of the good and the bad about Disney's community.

I've been blathering on here too much lately but I have one more thing to say:

I like many of Green Bay's neighborhoods better than Celebration Fla by far. Astor Neighborhood, for example, has much better character, history, proximity to things like employment centers, etc.

I did venture into Celebration when I was there 2 years ago, and although it was "nice" I wasn't overly impressed. Nice to see something *new* developed in that manner for a change from the norm of the last 40 years, but I still seriously would take the Astor Neighbhorhood in Green Bay over that.

I'm not at all against new or modern, but I just like places that mix the new into the fabric of the old. I wish our downtown had more of this comingling of age and styles.

OK I should probably stop blathering here now, I've been yakking too much here.

Let me guess--Dems are sleeping off the hangover & Repubicans are plotting their revenge on Sarah Palin? The good news is that she can get back to her important work keeping an eye on the Russians. You betcha! :lol:

Anyway.. I'm in NYC this week & it has gotten me completely re-energized for our little version of an urban environment. It's difficult to talk and talk (and talk & talk & talk) without as much progress as you'd like to see, but spending time in a great urban setting reminds me how important our downtown redevelopment is going to be.

Probably off-topic, but I was at Rockefeller Center on election night--THOUSANDS of people, & I had an absolute blast. I was able to grab a pic of the giant TV at the moment they announced the winner--

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3016/3004845570_84f6e9257f_b.jpg

^^ lol, i was just gonna say that this election, and even the environment u were in jerkylips in NY probably felt more like the dropping of the ball on New Years Eve...It seems like thats what it was cause the whole world celebrated this event, and when we all knew for sure who was elected, a huge smile came across my face, and i couldnt wipe it off!

I was listening to NPR on Tuesday, and the discussion was about the potential of another stimulus package by the govt. However, if there would be one, the package would be FOR the govt and business. Meaning everything from the transportation networks to how stuff is made would be more efficient, use less energy. They also went on to say about transportation networks such as public transport would be significantly expanded and then use alternate and multiple fuels. That means GB would probably benefit by getting passenger rail, and probably get hybrid buses, and expanded city bus transport.

i also meant to say that the TIMEFRAME for completion (my opinion) could quite possibly earlier. (and wish/dream/hope)

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20081106/GPG03/811060639/1247

Jschmuck - Speaking of transportation...Did you guys see that Kenosha is expanding their electric streetcar system by 3.4 miles? It will cost around 5.2 M. Good for them. Bring back our streetcars or light rail !

http://www.dot.state.wi.us/opencms/export/nr/modules/news/news_0731.html_786229440.html

^^ hell yea, though so far i only heard the expansion was under study...i love that streetcar, esp for kenosha

i also dont know the schedule is for the expansion, cant find exact details...there are numerous websites containing info about that streetcar though. one website lists transit projects from completed to proposed to under construction projects;http://www.lightrailnow.org/facts/fa_ken_2005-01.htm

http://www.heritagetrolley.org/existKenosha.htm

all right I said I wouldn't post for a while 'cause I blather too much on here but I can't resist another trolley discussion!

That's great for Kenosha. It would seem that their first dabbling with the streetcar is a success, if indeed they are getting the support to expand it.

Great for them but dammit it makes me frustrated that Green Bay can't have the same foresight as Kenosha and do something as progressive as this (yes, I just said that streetcars are progressive!).

I just cannot get past the idea that a downtown circulator trolley would help Green Bay in so many ways. The buses are fine for transit but they serve a different purpose; trolleys would have a different and more broad appeal, particularly in the downtown. It is somewhat difficult to explain what I mean here, without writing a friggin book, but hopefully you know what I'm talking about.

In any case, if anecdotal blog votes serve any purpose, I did do an article and a little poll over on the Packerland Annals. The response was overwhelmingly supportive of the downtown circulator trolley idea, one that would tie into the bus system, and eventually perhaps another line that ran out to the stadium district. (here's the article with comments, (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2008/09/what-if-green-bay-invested-5-million-on.html) scroll down for the poll results)

Another integral part of the Green Bay trolley would be the regional passenger rail line that would hopefully have a terminal downtown near the trolley loop, such that it tied in with the transit system. I'm starting to feel more confident that we will indeed get the passenger rail line, given the recent legislation and yes, our latest 'referendum on socialism' and our new marxist regime :nuts:

Let me guess--Dems are sleeping off the hangover & Repubicans are plotting their revenge on Sarah Palin?
Actually we are working on her move into the WHite House in 2012. McCain was just a sacrafical lamb this election, we knew with Bush Derangement Syndrome there was no one on the conservative side that could win, not even Jesus.

That means GB would probably benefit by getting passenger rail, and probably get hybrid buses, and expanded city bus transport.
WOW B O really have the left living on Planet 9? :ohno:

I just cannot get past the idea that a downtown circulator trolley would help Green Bay in so many ways. I agree the view of empty storefronts, parking ramps and bars would be a wonderful site as people went round and round, in ol' Green Bay.

passenger rail line that would hopefully have a terminal downtown near the trolley loop, such that it tied in with the transit system. Now train service would be a great addition, that is something I could support. I am a fan of the old steam engines and early Diesels, especially the late 30's early 40's EMD locomotives.

I suppose though my dream of a EMD 4-8-4 F Unit is not part of the plan. Bring Pullmans back, tell the governemnet to retire AMTRAK and life on the rails would be great again.

I agree the view of empty storefronts, parking ramps and bars would be a wonderful site as people went round and round, in ol' Green Bay.

Now train service would be a great addition, that is something I could support. I am a fan of the old steam engines and early Diesels, especially the late 30's early 40's EMD locomotives.

I suppose though my dream of a EMD 4-8-4 F Unit is not part of the plan. Bring Pullmans back, tell the governemnet to retire AMTRAK and life on the rails would be great again.

Well we can agree on one thing (actually two since I like your baseball stadium idea). The rail system should have bipartisan support. And I'm also with you that Amtrak may not be the best organization to run this. I'd prefer we start over with a new, clean slate to run the midwest regional rail.

But when it comes to trolleys, you miss my point--getting people around is what will transform those empty storefronts into something again; the trolley is the best way to remove the "need" for parking ramps.

Chicago and Northwestern operated a very popular several round trips/day service between Green Bay and Milwaukee/Chicago via Appleton right up until Amtrak day in 1971 and Amtrak was planning to take it over and continue running it, but the decrepit condition of CNW's track at the time made Amtrak rethink that plan. Since then Wisconsin Central completely rebuilt that track and WC successor CN has kept its maintenance up, so track condition is no longer an issue.

Assuming several useful round trips per day, such a Green Bay-Chicago via Appleton and Milwaukee service, just like back in the CNW days, will have no problems at all attracting users.

Mike

Lets bring the Milwaukee Road Hiawatha out of retirement for the route!

http://www.coffeecreek.info/history/hiaw_ad.jpg

gbmphillips, i dont think B.O proposed this potential 2nd stimulus package which is proposed to help the entire nation's infrastructure.

gbmphillips, i dont think B.O proposed this potential 2nd stimulus package which is proposed to help the entire nation's infrastructure.You are correct this is a Pelosi stunt, to "stimulate" the economy. This time no rebate checks but immediate help for states, the unemployed, and the working class. Don't really see how they can call it a stimulus package, it stimulates nothing just bandaids existing problems.

Chicago and Northwestern operated a very popular several round trips/day service between Green Bay and Milwaukee/Chicago via Appleton right up until Amtrak day in 1971 and Amtrak was planning to take it over and continue running it, but the decrepit condition of CNW's track at the time made Amtrak rethink that plan. Since then Wisconsin Central completely rebuilt that track and WC successor CN has kept its maintenance up, so track condition is no longer an issue.

Assuming several useful round trips per day, such a Green Bay-Chicago via Appleton and Milwaukee service, just like back in the CNW days, will have no problems at all attracting users.

Mike

Mike, it's encouraging to hear that the track is in decent condition. I thought a large segment of it had been completely removed somewhere south of Oshkosh, even though the right of way was still there. Is this the case?

Also can you speak as to how busy this line is with freight traffic? As I understand it, one of Amtrak's biggest problems is that they share the rail with freight, and freight always has the right of way meaning the Amtrak train must stop and take a side to let the freight train pass, thus creating frustrating delays for passengers. Is there truth to this, and how does this affect the Milwaukee-to-Green Bay line?

Thanks! I appreciate your insight.

Also can you speak as to how busy this line is with freight traffic? As I understand it, one of Amtrak's biggest problems is that they share the rail with freight, and freight always has the right of way meaning the Amtrak train must stop and take a side to let the freight train pass, thus creating frustrating delays for passengers. Is there truth to this, and how does this affect the Milwaukee-to-Green Bay line?

You've got that backwards. As part of the 1971 deal for Amtrak to take passenger rail off the hands of the RR companies, they agreed to let Amtrak use their track, and have priority over freight trains. Of course in practice it doesn't alway work that way, and some RRs are better (BNSF) at it than others (UP). But for the most part, Amtrak does get priority over the freight trains.

Mike, it's encouraging to hear that the track is in decent condition. I thought a large segment of it had been completely removed somewhere south of Oshkosh, even though the right of way was still there. Is this the case?

Also can you speak as to how busy this line is with freight traffic? As I understand it, one of Amtrak's biggest problems is that they share the rail with freight, and freight always has the right of way meaning the Amtrak train must stop and take a side to let the freight train pass, thus creating frustrating delays for passengers. Is there truth to this, and how does this affect the Milwaukee-to-Green Bay line?

Thanks! I appreciate your insight.My son worked the section gang for several years for CN. They were always doing upgradeing and repair. He said the scariest work was working the lines in chicago. The gang would be on one line and trains would pass at full speed just inches from them. They had one guy whose job was to warn the gang of approaching trains as the eguipment being used often blocked out the sound of their approach and one step in the wrong direction did not bring a pretty result.

Mike, it's encouraging to hear that the track is in decent condition. I thought a large segment of it had been completely removed somewhere south of Oshkosh, even though the right of way was still there. Is this the case?

Also can you speak as to how busy this line is with freight traffic? As I understand it, one of Amtrak's biggest problems is that they share the rail with freight, and freight always has the right of way meaning the Amtrak train must stop and take a side to let the freight train pass, thus creating frustrating delays for passengers. Is there truth to this, and how does this affect the Milwaukee-to-Green Bay line?

Thanks! I appreciate your insight.
The former CNW trackage between Milwaukee and Green Bay that no longer exists is in four sections:

1) Through Menasha and Neenah, WC rerouted it to their former SOO route through town shortly after they acquired it. That move streamlined their operations by combining everything through the area onto one line and eliminated much unneeded redundant track. The former Menasha-Neenah CNW station is on this bypassed section.

2) Between Neenah (Dixie Rd) and Oshkosh. It duplicated WC's ex SOO track (immediately adjacent the whole way), but can be restored with little effort beyond the cost of relaying the track as the graded ROW is all still there under CN ownership. CN may very well do that within the next few years as their mainline traffic is increasing.

3) Through the City of Fond du Lac. Traffic on that line was combined with the former SOO trackage one block to the west. The former Fond du Lac CNW station is on this bypassed section.

4) Between Eden and West Bend. The grade is still there but with CN's ex WC, nee SOO route and CP's Ex MILW route and the direct connection between them at Duplainville, it won't be needed to provide passenger service to FdL, Oshkosh, Appleton and Green Bay.

Traffic between Neenah and Green Bay is active, 10-15 trains/day. South of Neenah, the big mainline runs 25-40 trains/day. CN runs them long and heavy, too.

As others have mentioned, Amtrak trains generally get priority over most freights. Amtrak also pays railroads bonuses for good 'on time' performance.

Mike

You've got that backwards. As part of the 1971 deal for Amtrak to take passenger rail off the hands of the RR companies, they agreed to let Amtrak use their track, and have priority over freight trains. Of course in practice it doesn't alway work that way, and some RRs are better (BNSF) at it than others (UP). But for the most part, Amtrak does get priority over the freight trains.
BNSF has always been 'Amtrak friendly' and is a real sticker for quality - only within the past few years have they been sufficiently satisfied with the quality of Amtrak's Chicago-Los Angeles runs that they allowed them to use their predecessor Santa Fe's trademark 'Chief' in the trains' name.

Mike

Lets bring the Milwaukee Road Hiawatha out of retirement for the route!

http://www.coffeecreek.info/history/hiaw_ad.jpg

I think I posted something along these lines months ago, but here goes again.. I have clients downtown Chicago & get down there relatively often. Right now, I drive to MKE & take the train to MKE. Client is literally blocks from Union Station so it works out absolutely perfect. Traffic & parking in Chi-town sucks, so any time I can avoid it I do. A 2 hour drive to get to a point where I can use public transportation seems kind of stupid, though.

I also get to MKE about once a week, & usually drive down by myself. A GB-MKE train would make me a very happy man.

BTW...been in NYC all week & have made a point to use the subway as much as possible. Every time I'm here I'm amazed how efficient & convenient it is. Obviously the scale is completely different, but I really think that a combination of a system to get people into downtown from the burbs, along with an efficient, quick system to move around once there, COULD transform our downtown.

OK--one LAST thing. We talk about trains & rail travel, but I'm curious about something. On this board, how many people have actually traveled by train? The first time I did, I was shocked. I was expecting something along the lines of air travel--cramped, uncomfortable, & generally a huge pain in the a$$. It was much more comfortable & relaxing that I had ever expected, & in some ways I kind of look forward to it now....

Anyone ever been to a Lucky Strike Lanes?

I've been to a few around the country. Very cool place(s). It's basically a combo bar/restaurant/small bowling alley (maybe 10-12 lanes). The food is what I'd call upscale bar food, & the whole place is very modern/urban looking.

The ones I've been to have been relatively small, & I think that's the key, but it's a great atmosphere. Down the road, I could see something like that taking off downtown. The thing that this concept (whether an actually Lucky Strike Lanes or an independent with the same concept) would have going for it, in my mind, is that it could attract a lunch crowd during the week, dinner crowd, bowling leagues during the week, younger crowds on the weekends.. The concept seems to minimize slow times.

I know that Jillians failed downtown years ago, but even though we're not where we want to be just yet, I think everyone will agree that downtown is in MUCH better shape now than it was back when Jillian's tried & failed.

Thoughts?

I've been to the Lucky Strike in Louisville, KY. It had 14 lanes and we had a really good time. To be honest, however, it is more of a lounge/bowling alley where it is a bit more expensive and the drinks were kinda pricey. It was located DT Louisville in their entertainment area, but it was not the type of place I see attracting families. Since we seem to have a lot of bowling alleys in the area where families can go, maybe this would be a good alternative downtown for the adult crowd.

Jerkylips999- I have taken trains a few times. Once from Milwaukee to Winter Park, Colorado for a ski trip. It was a fun time actually. It took maybe 24 hours to go from Milwaukee to the Rockies with all the stops on the way. Also, I remember taking a train around Fairbanks, Alaska for 3 hours or so. When I was in NYC last time I took the subway from Midtown to Newark. A buddy of mine had to be at work for fashion week in Manhatten in the morning. He is a model and also fills in on some soap operas there. It is not fun taking the train when your are ready to get sick after a night of partying. Let me tell you there are some big ass rats running around the rails when you are waiting for the train.

When did the bowling center in the basement of the WBAY studio building close? I remember watching bowling shows on Channel 2 that were taped there when I was a kid.

Mike

I used to use Amtrak's the Vermonter when I lived in Boston to get up to Vermont to visit my elderly great aunt (may she rest in piece) and several nearby friends. LOVED it. Unbelievably beautiful vistas, especially in fall. I lived in the Northeast for about six years and generally found buses to be the better choice, slower but a lot cheaper. When I lived in Italy I travelled exclusively by foot and train, you could buy the "biglietto chilometrico" very cheaply and it was good for 1000 kilometers of travel. It saved you money and time, since you didn't have to buy individual train tickets. I saw pretty much the entire country that way, with excursions into Austria and France. The trains in Austria were unbelievably nice. I also travelled by train in Thailand, which was ludicrously cheap if you went third class (about $1 between Ayutthaya and Bangkok).

In my student days (when I was in Italy) I would pay the minimum fares and I generally ended up sleeping in the hallways (once in a baggage rack on a particularly overstuffed train that was on its way to Oktoberfest in Munich). I seldom found a seat because you had to pay extra for a reserved seat and it was all first come first serve. Amtrak is comparatively swank, and compared to buses and airplanes quite comfortable. Actually buses are much more comfortable than airplanes at this point, an odd reversal.

I would love to use Amtrak more, but it's hard to find the extra time that it would entail, getting from here to Florida to vacation, for example. But, I would definitely use a Green Bay to Milwaukee and Chicago route, maybe 6-8 times a year.

Obviously there is the monthly update on Astor and River Center - but the one item that caught my eye...

Communication of August 5, 2008, by James Sanderson that the Redevelopment Authority retain the City’s ownership of the antique four-sided clock that is currently in the west end of the former Washington Commons Mall. (Referred to staff August 12, 2008.)

Recommendation: Dispose of clock.

Dispose of Clock? Dispose of Clock?:bash::ohno:

What the hell? This is BS. That clock could be a symbol of the redevelopment of Washington Commons. Let us not forget the mistakes of the past as the minutes tick away towards our future. Once again, if it isn't making money, get rid out it to the highest bidder. Isn't there no respect for an antique clock? :wtf::wallbash::gaah:


This is just so disappointing. I guess we are too busy trying to figure out how to stand up for our Federal Rights regarding Christmas Displays and allowing us to do it even though we never will. You've got to be kidding me. No wonder everyone looks at Green Bay as soooooo freakin' backwards...

Obviously there is the monthly update on Astor and River Center - but the one item that caught my eye...

Communication of August 5, 2008, by James Sanderson that the Redevelopment Authority retain the City’s ownership of the antique four-sided clock that is currently in the west end of the former Washington Commons Mall. (Referred to staff August 12, 2008.)

Recommendation: Dispose of clock.

Dispose of Clock? Dispose of Clock?:bash::ohno:

What the hell? This is BS. That clock could be a symbol of the redevelopment of Washington Commons. Let us not forget the mistakes of the past as the minutes tick away towards our future. Once again, if it isn't making money, get rid out it to the highest bidder. Isn't there no respect for an antique clock? :wtf::wallbash::gaah:


This is just so disappointing. I guess we are too busy trying to figure out how to stand up for our Federal Rights regarding Christmas Displays and allowing us to do it even though we never will. You've got to be kidding me. No wonder everyone looks at Green Bay as soooooo freakin' backwards...

Big shock considering the chochbags running this city.

http://www.labelscar.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/port-plaza-mall-13.jpg

http://www.labelscar.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/port-plaza-mall-10.jpg

http://www.labelscar.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/port-plaza-mall-12.jpg

Word is that T Wall is pulling out of downtown mall project. The deadline for a possible tenant in a new building on the site has expired. This speaks volumes that a large scale project on that site consisting of office buildings, mixed retail etc, etc is just not going to happen. The door is once again wide open for the powers to be to look at a baseball stadium on this site..!!

Ifyoubuildit- I know you are adamant about a new stadium going on the mall site and I know it would bring more people downtown, but I dont see what is so "special" about having it on the mall site. I personally would like to see it on the Larson site were you could sit behind home plate and look out towards the "skyline" and also walk along the river next to the stadium and have "splash" home runs. I don't know, maybe I'm the only one that thinks that site would be cool for a stadium. Plus this way the street grid could be restored on the mall site which is vital to having things like a streetcar return to downtown. Plus once the economy turns and if a new stadium is built on the Larson site more infill would then be able to take place on the mall site.

Ifyoubuildit- I know you are adamant about a new stadium going on the mall site and I know it would bring more people downtown, but I dont see what is so "special" about having it on the mall site. I personally would like to see it on the Larson site were you could sit behind home plate and look out towards the "skyline" and also walk along the river next to the stadium and have "splash" home runs. I don't know, maybe I'm the only one that thinks that site would be cool for a stadium. Plus this way the street grid could be restored on the mall site which is vital to having things like a streetcar return to downtown. Plus once the economy turns and if a new stadium is built on the Larson site more infill would then be able to take place on the mall site.

I'm not against Larsen site or Brownfield location, but the old mall site would be the ideal location. It would put the finishing touches on the heart of downtown. Parking is a slam dunk with the ramps. Walking distance to everything that is the heart of downtown. People want something substantial on the old mall site. Office buildings etc, are not the answer. The mall was built there to be the magnet to attract people downtown. A baseball stadium is the perfect solution for that site.

With the Larsen site building it next to the water is impossible due to the train tracks. Yes the view from behind home plate would be very nice, but things like home runs landing in the river would only be possible at the Brownfield site.

Word is that T Wall is pulling out of downtown mall project. The deadline for a possible tenant in a new building on the site has expired. This speaks volumes that a large scale project on that site consisting of office buildings, mixed retail etc, etc is just not going to happen. The door is once again wide open for the powers to be to look at a baseball stadium on this site..!!

You have got to be kidding. Where did you hear that from? Is it definate?

I dont know, i almost think a stadium right in downtown of any city is really too downtown...thus a stadium in an area like Larson would be ideal. the stadium should be on the edge more or less.

THese didn't turn out as good as I had hoped (I couldn't get the "skyline" to look decent) but it does show the scale and positioning of a stadium on the brownfield site. From the seats, there would be a decent view of the courthouse and other elements of the "skyline". I think it would be pretty cool to look out from the stands toward the river & city, and also attractive looking down from the Mason St Bridge (the bridge looks flat on here because I didn't bother to elevate it as it should be). Also the ability to boat into the slip to catch the game would be cool. And there's space for parking and milling around, tailgating, whatever.

These are pretty close to scale:

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/brownfieldStadium2.jpg

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/brownfieldStadium3.jpg

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/brownfieldStadium4.jpg


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Later addition:
I looked at the Larsen Site but there isn't enough room between the RR tracks and the waterfront for a baseball sadium.
Hard to see where we'd fit a stadium in there unless the RR tracks move (unlikely).

Same with the mall site--hardly enough room unless the parking ramps were removed and the street grid was not put in. Because it wouldn't fit here for a variety of reasons, I am not in favor of putting the stadium on the mall site.

I'd say our best options are to leave it where it is at Johannes Park (which is not far from downtown, and is on the East River, not a bad spot) or else if we really want to move it closer downtown, the only viable site that I can see is the brownfield site next to the Mason St Bridge, as shown above (only I'd reconfigure this a bit--I got this stadium from the google sketchup 3D warehouse; it doesn't fit the site just right but it was the best 'right-sized' stadium I could find there to drop in).

I'm picking up strong chatter that the brownfield site we've been discussing probably won't be available for a baseball stadium. There are a number of possibilities floating around, developers in the wings, etc. It will likely be a marina with some retail and restaurants, possibly a hotel. The Larsen site is also unavailable for a stadium. I think it's time to scout out other possibilities. The opportunity for these sites to have a stadium on them is passed, barring the failure of the current plans to manifest.

Personally, I don't think that the mall site would be a good option. I'd much rather see offices with people working there than a stadium that's only used heavily three months out of the year. I'm a little disappointed that the brownfield site won't work, I think the next best option is somewhere over by Bay Beach with a view of the bay. I think it'd cool for families to be able to make a day of it out there: picnics, rides, baseball, geese, etc. Somekind of Bullfrog trolley route for game days would be cool so that the stadium is linked to downtown by transit.

I was just looking at whether BOTH a stadium and something else, like a marina village, would fit onto the "Brownfield site".

I think it could all be integrated.

Remember the Gould-Evans plan for this site from years ago? SOmehting like this could go on the north side of the slip, the baseball stadium on the south side upagainst the bridge.

What else would work up against that Mason St bridge anyway? It's dark and cavernous, not appealing; although with the baseball stadium, you'd just have the back of the stadium up against it, people facing the other way towards the courthouse dome and the downtown.

THe more I think about it and play iwht the 3D models and perspectives, the more excited I get about this idea. I'd hate for a developer to "railroad" the idea with some other grandiose plan that is way too big and financially complicated and in the end does nothing except block the site from any other ideas...for years & years. Haven't we seen enough of this?

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/GouldEvansDowntownGreenBayPlan--Bro.jpg

1) I continue to support the stadium at the Mason/Broadway brownfield.

2) Most projects die a slow death in Green Bay, so I agree that "chatter" about another project planned for that parcel should not preempt any planning for a stadium there.

3) IF a stadium were to be built at the brownfield, do you think the inlet between the stadium and the parking lot would be filled in to add to the limited available space at the site? If not, a pedestrian bridge from the parking lot to the stadium, built where the inlet meets the river, would be kinda neat.

IMO, the mall site would be a HORRIBLE location for a baseball stadium. Keeping in mind that there's no evidence that anyone is interested in building one who has the ability to do so, if one were to be built, my first choice would be Joannes Park, and my second would be the brownfield. I'm not saying a ball park if it couldn't be a really cool idea, but A) I believe restoring the street grid is really important, B) part of redeveloping the downtown is about increasing tax base, and long term having taxable development on the mall site is key, and C) we need to remember that it took 30 years to ruin the downtown, and as such it isn't going to be rebuilt overnight, so in the event that one developer drops out (which is pure speculation and nothing more at this point), that doesn't mean that nothing can ever be developed on the site. And again, if someone actually comes forward with a viable plan for a stadium in a suitable location in or near downtown, I'll be one of the first people to throw my support behind it.

Unrelated, I'm right now sitting at the Daily Buzz, and looking out at the progress on the ramp retail. For me, it looks to be coming along nicely and really makes the whole thing look a lot nicer and more urban. I suspect it will look much better still when it is occupied. In theoretical terms I don't think that was the best place for a parking ramp, but it's there now, and if it contributes to the street life in the area along with the parking it provides, it certainly represents development in the right direction for downtown.

I'm continuing to model the brownfield ballpark. I put in the elevated mason street, reconfigured the ballpark to suit the site, made it a little bigger to make the outfield the right size...added an outfield wall, added some other details. In other words I'm shirking my other repsonsibilities around the house to dream about downtown again!!

Anyway stay tuned, I hope to post some new renders soon. Did someone say they knew the Bullfrogs owners? If I do all of this I'm wondering if the idea could be bounced off of someone who could actually do something with it, or at least consider the idea.

I like Johannes Park too, and would be fine if they stayed there.. but at least if the Bullfrogs left to go downtown, it would still be used by the high school and other stuff.

I am totally excited about the brownfield site for the new stadium, as I've said before....I can't stop thinking about it..... TO redevelop that long-abandoned but highly visible site....Excellent waterfront location, even having some "skyline" views....Summertime fireworks after games.... People boating into the slip. TO anchor the part of Broadway that still needs some help. The ability to develop the restaurant/hotel or whatever complimentary thing can go on the north side of the slip. My modeling is proving to me that there is space for all of this, it doesn't have to be "either/or" (either a restaurant/marina/hotel or other development OR a stadium)...all will fit and work quite nicely together.

Great exposure to people driving over Mason St...This could go a long ways in exposing the fact that the downtown IS coming around and CAN BE vibrant exciting!! It would be such a visible draw that might actually get a few more people out of their cars and back into the downtown.

The slip, by the way, should NOT be filled in. IT's too unique and hard to do nowadays with regulations and such. It would make an excellent litle marina of sorts, particulary to tie in with the stadium, the other development, Broadway and such.

The former CNW trackage between Milwaukee and Green Bay that no longer exists is in four sections:

1) Through Menasha and Neenah, WC rerouted it to their former SOO route through town shortly after they acquired it. That move streamlined their operations by combining everything through the area onto one line and eliminated much unneeded redundant track. The former Menasha-Neenah CNW station is on this bypassed section.

2) Between Neenah (Dixie Rd) and Oshkosh. It duplicated WC's ex SOO track (immediately adjacent the whole way), but can be restored with little effort beyond the cost of relaying the track as the graded ROW is all still there under CN ownership. CN may very well do that within the next few years as their mainline traffic is increasing.

3) Through the City of Fond du Lac. Traffic on that line was combined with the former SOO trackage one block to the west. The former Fond du Lac CNW station is on this bypassed section.

4) Between Eden and West Bend. The grade is still there but with CN's ex WC, nee SOO route and CP's Ex MILW route and the direct connection between them at Duplainville, it won't be needed to provide passenger service to FdL, Oshkosh, Appleton and Green Bay.

Traffic between Neenah and Green Bay is active, 10-15 trains/day. South of Neenah, the big mainline runs 25-40 trains/day. CN runs them long and heavy, too.

As others have mentioned, Amtrak trains generally get priority over most freights. Amtrak also pays railroads bonuses for good 'on time' performance.

Mike

Mike-Thanks for this. So is there any part of the route that's could not relatively quickly get put back to use due to R/W takeover, bridge removal, or anything else? It doesn't seem that way, seems there is some track to lay or upgrade but the Right of Way exists?

ALso-
I was listening to PUblic Radio recently, they had a show about high speed passenger rail. A caller from Green Bay called in and said he recently wrote an email to his legislator to support this. Was this caller one of you guys, buy chance?

I have taken trains, and I do enjoy it better than most other forms of travel, especially when the cars are roomy and cozy and allow you to walk around, get a drink, take a nap or go upstairs to just watch the countryside whiz by from the upper deck. I still don't think I would take a train cross-country unless it was my last resort, and I wouldn't probably use it for short distances. However, for those medium distances like to Chicago or any other number of midwestern cities that would get linked together, I'd be all over it, probalby use it quite often.

Mike-Thanks for this. So is there any part of the route that's could not relatively quickly get put back to use due to R/W takeover, bridge removal, or anything else? It doesn't seem that way, seems there is some track to lay or upgrade but the Right of Way exists?
The toughest part would be through Menasha-Neenah - the former CNW grade south of the south channel of the Fox River has been sold off and built on and the former CNW 'long' bridge in Menasha is now a popular pvblic trail. A station, if one is ever established in Neenah, would have to be by Main St, where the old SOO station was on the mainline 'S' curve.

Fond du Lac would also be tough, as the ex CNW grade is now a trail and the new Johnson St (WI 23) bridge over the CN (ex WC, nee SOO) mainline is waaaaaay too low where it crosses Brooke St by the former CNW grade and the bridge's east abutment is ON the grade. A station in FdL would likely have to be near Western Ave on the CN mainline.

ALso-
I was listening to Pvblic Radio recently, they had a show about high speed passenger rail. A caller from Green Bay called in and said he recently wrote an email to his legislator to support this. Was this caller one of you guys, buy chance?
Unfortunately, I seldom listen to Pvblic Radio, so it could not have been me.

Mike

I dont really know how many rail projects are in the works around the country, but I saw this link in a magazine from New Mexico.

http://www.nmrailrunner.com/

One thing that caught my eye was the fare. A day pass for $4!?! thats just a bit more then the cost of riding the GB Metro round trip. If we could get rail service to MKE or better yet continue on to Chicago for those prices I could see the service really working well.

unofficial list/site with list, news, analysis; http://www.lightrailnow.org/

lots of info across that whole site.

$.20 cents a ride!


http://rlbphotography.com/blogimages/0031.jpg

^^ That better not be using my hard-earned tax dollars! ;)

This was nice to see. According to Greg Larsen, they have been in talks with developers for the four historic buildings on Larsen Green and hopefully more news to soon come. I sure hope that the Gorman Company out of Madison is one of these parties. They do fantastic work with redevelopment of historic buildings (I have been in one of these in La Crosse and it is amazing) and those warehouses by the Shopko Express could be a cool development.

http://www.onbroadway.org/merge/archive/AugSept08_website.pdf

http://greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20081109/GPG0101/811090717/1207/GPG01

http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/news_wluk_green_bay_new_business_green_bay_200811081655_rev1

click on video, then play for this one.

Well I've been obsessed with this damn stadium idea all weekend. Thanks alot, GBM, for having such a damn great idea and making me blow a whole weekend on it!! (just kidding:cheers:).

I keep adding to the model but check out what I have for now...It's complete with KITT and Knight Rider and a restaurant I guess you could call the Krusty Crab and a passenger train.... Ifyoubuildit. Right?

Blog article here (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2008/11/great-idea-for-brownfield-site-near.html). Growing render album with captions here.. (http://picasaweb.google.com/gBayPacker/Brownfield#)

One thing I'm still going to try is to get some pics from the Mason St bridge of our little itty bitty "skyline" and try to add that to the background, and have a perspective view as if looking out from the stands to the "skyline". Wish me luck on that.

It's complete with KITT and Knight Rider

Nice touch!

Keep up the good work. The illustrations are nice & bring it to life. I try to go to at least one bullfrog game a year. With that setup... I may have to get season tickets :)

I was looking for some green bikes parked next to the stadium, but I think they were all stolen. :baeh3:

Puant, holy crap!!! That is sweet. Your renders have certainly piqued my interest and have got me thinking about possiblities as well.

This field would certainly fit the urban location of baseball fields of the past and would continue the trend of new 'retro' style fields. The one thing that I do like is you don't have a field that is a 'island in a sea of ashpalt.' Since you aren't having to worry about dressing up such a large area for a walkway (think Miller Park), one could spend money/resources putting some nice detail into the entry way of the park. I would like to see incorporating some brickwork and exposed steel, wrought iron fencing with some lighting that would be reminiscent of a dock/boardwalk type of area and would fit the style of Broadway. Maybe you could build a viewing deck/picnic table area on that small area by right field (this would have to be elevated). You could call it 'Pelicans Landing.':lol: I know that the S.F. Giants have a splash tracker on their scoreboard for all fair balls that hit the water-maybe we could add this. I also kind of liked that light house located there on one of the early plans for this site.

Anyone know if the owner has been on here yet? Any developers know of this? I mentioned it to Jen Kuo and she thought that it sounded outstanding! I was hoping that she would relay it to someone appropiate. Anyone else, GBM?

Actually, I was thinking about making a better "retro-style" brick stadium, one that looks much cooler than this, but haven't had time yet. The stands that I put in here was just a simple one that I downloaded from the "3D Warehouse" and dropped in.

As far as the "sea of asphalt", I'd actually like to get rid of more by adding some more buildings along the street parts.

Thanks for mentioning this! I don't know if the "powers that be" would go for this or if there is money for it, but if so, I think this idea could actually take off. Looking at the other stadiums in the Northwoods League, the one we have right now in GB is woefully inadequate. A new stadium almost seems like a no-brainer to me.

The stadium talk and mockups really have me juiced. I think the impact of this if done right could be way more than some of us might imagine. Of course it isn't a fix all but it could be a major piece to an evolving puzzle.

DT seems to be a case of constant flicking of a wet match across the concrete hoping for a light....a stadium could finally be the spark we need.

I did something in my Simcity game as a companion to the work Puant has been working on for us.

It's not perfect,the specs aren't exact,etc..it's more just give a visual idea of how something on this site might look and function...again,this is simply a 'what if?' I fooled around with while playing the game.










http://i34.tinypic.com/2hoeck8.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/21t0dj.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/2vhx4ra.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/v9vyf.jpg

chicagoevny looks like ur a member of simtropolis ehh?

chicagoevny looks like ur a member of simtropolis ehh?

Most def. Have been for a long time. I'm not active,I don't post on the forums and I've only uploaded a few things to the file exchange but I do check in once a week to see whats up and to download new stuff.

Holy cow....!! Now we are talking. No doubt the Brownfield site has a lot of potential. Anyone know who currently controls that piece of property..?? Nice to see that other's are starting to buy in to the baseball stadium being the KEY project and that it need's to find a way to become reality..!!

Most def. Have been for a long time. I'm not active,I don't post on the forums and I've only uploaded a few things to the file exchange but I do check in once a week to see whats up and to download new stuff.

I love the use of Simcity! Its the only game I played and will every once in a while still drag out. I bought the new version Societies and HATED it went back to SC 4.

I know its all a pipedream but maybe in 5 years when nothing else goes there and if the Bullfrogs are able to continue growing something may just happen down there.

Holy cow....!! Now we are talking. No doubt the Brownfield site has a lot of potential. Anyone know who currently controls that piece of property..?? Nice to see that other's are starting to buy in to the baseball stadium being the KEY project and that it need's to find a way to become reality..!!

The "Brownfield of Dreams" property is under ownership of the Green Bay Redevelopment Authority...(the city, in other words). So that should be a "go" I would hope.

I've been getting a lot of positive feedback on this idea. I bounced it off a couple guys at work today. Also, Check out the comments on my blog from someone named "Green Bay Bullfrogs"...interesting!

ALso I've been reading about Chad Bauer, co-owner of the Northwoods League Green Bay Bullfrogs, who also appears to be getting final approvals on a new $1.2 million stadium in Waukesha, for another Northwoods League team there. Clearly this guy is interested in building new and moving this league forward. He had some opposition in Waukesha from the surrounding neighborhood, but I really doubt there'd be any opposition from neighbors of the Brownfield in Green Bay.

The SIM city render was nice. Looks like you too have been obsessing about GB downtown! Can you create things more to scale on that? The renders I can do aren't as pretty but they are more to scale...although it's close, I think a stadium would fit here very nicely.

Vetters New Website Project...

http://www.watermarkgb.com/#section1

Has some details we were curious about.

I don't know about anyone else, but I like the name "Watermark". Does anyone else remember this from a couple weeks ago, but didn't Vetter mention that he had a second party interested in investing heavily in this project? I wonder if anything came to fruition with that.

Also, on the 'retail' tab of the website is that covered terrace the section of Pine St. that goes under the Younkers building?

Hi Guys & Gals,

I am going to try and get in on one of these WaterMark residential units. I'll keep you posted on how it goes.

Anyone got any suggestions for a first time pre-construction buyer?

Hi Guys & Gals,

I am going to try and get in on one of these WaterMark residential units. I'll keep you posted on how it goes.

Anyone got any suggestions for a first time pre-construction buyer?

Anticipate moving in about 5 years from now into your "new" loft...:rofl:

I'm not planning on moving anytime soon....that I already know!...............thought that by showing some interest and putting my money down.......maybe something will eventually happen in my lifetime!

A couple years ago i was interested in getting a cheap unit in astor place, FORTUNATELY i didnt have enough $. i was this close (pinches thumb and fore finger almost together). However Watermark looks promising...i mean Milwaukee keeps chugging out these residential high rises with ease, so a minor building like Watermark should be safe.

Back to astor, i think that building should not have been proposed as strictly residential (aside from street level retail). It should have been street level retail, then possibly office space on 2 -l ets say floor 8, then residential on 9 through 17. Or maybe some hotel suites mixed in...

Vetters New Website Project...

http://www.watermarkgb.com/#section1

Has some details we were curious about.

You have got to be kidding. :lol::nuts:Vetter makes nice websites but when it comes to actually buildings....well lets just say this is one more Schmidtt/Vetter pipedream that will go the way of most everything else he has "not" done for the city.

I agree, here we go again...!! More residential on the waterfront as is today....what a joke..! So RiverCenter is now Watermark..?? Change the name, same old concept. Mix of retail, residential and office space. Blah, Blah, Blah...!!

This is straight from the Watermark website "CityDeck will be Green Bay’s new hub for family-friendly attractions. Enjoy year-round destinations; the new Children’s Museum, retail stores, and the Hagermeister Park Restaurant—a sports-themed establishment featuring an outdoor courtyard.

Somebody explain to me what is any different about this project from the others..?? Who do they think is going to buy that this offering is any different than the others..?? Astor Place and River Center were supposed to break ground in 2006 and we are a little more than a month away from 2009. Why can't they figure out it's time to stop trying to shove the same ideas down our throats..?? A pig with earrings and lipstick is still a pig..!!

Well really this property is what we have been wondering about for some time. From the way I understand it the financing is all set to go. The next piece of the puzzle are the pre-sales. So depending on how well that goes... we must consider that these loft/studios are unique to Green Bay they have a better chance then say uber pricey Astor. Many of the potential residents are first time home buyers.

I like the concept and if I were single or childless I would be buying.

Beats the hell out of racking those damn leaves...

FYI for all interested in checking out the flats- there is an open house tomorrow 5-9? I think

Back in 2006 they claimed to have 75% of Astor Place pre-sold and still haven't broke ground..?? Who do you believe..?? Banks are in the business of lending so it's no surprise that financing is in place, but again if you were single or childless why would you live downtown as things stand today...to live near more empty office space..??

They can't get the proposed condo projects to sell near Lambeau and everything you'd want except for the water is very close. And finally if you are married or live in say Suamico, DePere etc, etc why in anyway, shape or form would this project get you excited and make you want to get in your car and go downtown..?? For all I care everyone of these proposed projects could happen and not a one of them except maybe the new Museum would excite me enough to make me drive from the BURBS to downtown.

That's why I've said all along that the timing is ideal to build a new baseball stadium..?? It's the perfect fit to appeal to literally thousands of people of all ages who live in and around the city of Green Bay and it gives those thousands of people who live in the metropolitan areas a reason to make their way downtown on numerous occasions throughout the year. Once that starts happening then and only then do these projects like Watermark, Astor Place make sense. They have the cart ahead of the horse...........

Off topic, but still related to Green Bay. Obviously the writers for "The Late Show" have not seen the 'Better by the Bay' video.

Top 10 List- Terrell Owens advice for Kids
2- There ain't a damn thing to do in Green Bay.

PG articles on Flats on the Fox as well as Watermark

http://greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20081112/GPG03/811120680

http://greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20081112/GPG03/811120679

If you build it, I think you're having trouble looking past your own interests and opinions. So, you don't want to live by the river downtown? Fine. But why condemn a project because you're not the target market for it? There are plenty who would like to live by the river downtown. Like GBsurveyor, I'd move there in a heartbeat if I were single or childless. The pricepoint for riverfront lofts was much to high, but my understanding is that the Washington Street condos are selling well and they're in the same ballpark as the Watermark.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for a downtown ballpark, but I feel like I need to remind you that the point of downtown is not solely to exist as a recreational area for people who live in the suburbs. Downtown Green Bay, in order to be successful in the long term, needs to be sustainable and commercially viable. And in order for that to happen, we need people living there, working there, and last of all: playing there. So, if there are people who come in from the suburbs in the evenings and weekends, then great. But it's really what happens downtown Monday through Friday from 9 to 5 that matters to the long term prosperity of Green Bay and its downtown.

If you build it, I think you're having trouble looking past your own interests and opinions. So, you don't want to live by the river downtown? Fine. But why condemn a project because you're not the target market for it? There are plenty who would like to live by the river downtown. Like GBsurveyor, I'd move there in a heartbeat if I were single or childless. The pricepoint for riverfront lofts was much to high, but my understanding is that the Washington Street condos are selling well and they're in the same ballpark as the Watermark.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for a downtown ballpark, but I feel like I need to remind you that the point of downtown is not solely to exist as a recreational area for people who live in the suburbs. Downtown Green Bay, in order to be successful in the long term, needs to be sustainable and commercially viable. And in order for that to happen, we need people living there, working there, and last of all: playing there. So, if there are people who come in from the suburbs in the evenings and weekends, then great. But it's really what happens downtown Monday through Friday from 9 to 5 that matters to the long term prosperity of Green Bay and its downtown.


WELL SAID!

If you build it, I think you're having trouble looking past your own interests and opinions. So, you don't want to live by the river downtown? Fine. But why condemn a project because you're not the target market for it? There are plenty who would like to live by the river downtown. Like GBsurveyor, I'd move there in a heartbeat if I were single or childless. The pricepoint for riverfront lofts was much to high, but my understanding is that the Washington Street condos are selling well and they're in the same ballpark as the Watermark.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for a downtown ballpark, but I feel like I need to remind you that the point of downtown is not solely to exist as a recreational area for people who live in the suburbs. Downtown Green Bay, in order to be successful in the long term, needs to be sustainable and commercially viable. And in order for that to happen, we need people living there, working there, and last of all: playing there. So, if there are people who come in from the suburbs in the evenings and weekends, then great. But it's really what happens downtown Monday through Friday from 9 to 5 that matters to the long term prosperity of Green Bay and its downtown.

People do work in downtown in large numbers already and then they leave because they don't live or play there....so my point of bringing the baseball stadium to the forefront is a key missing link..!! With the stadium the other components you mentioned "live there" and "play there" will happen much quicker and in larger numbers. The baseball stadium can be the driver to create the live there, work there and play there while at the same time creating a magnet for the people in the burbs to come downtown...that my friend is a WIN/WIN for everyone and I truely believe the ballpark is the missing link..!!

People do work in downtown in large numbers already and then they leave because they don't live or play there....so my point of bringing the baseball stadium to the forefront is a key missing link..!! With the stadium the other components you mentioned "live there" and "play there" will happen much quicker and in larger numbers. The baseball stadium can be the driver to create the live there, work there and play there while at the same time creating a magnet for the people in the burbs to come downtown...that my friend is a WIN/WIN for everyone and I truely believe the ballpark is the missing link..!!

I would say that isn't the "only" missing link to our downtown being successful. There needs to be a balance of uses that creates a 24/7 place to work, live, and play. One attraction, in my opinion, will not create the synergy that we need for the downtown to turn the corner. We are starting to see a mix of restaurant types. You have the upscale restaurants such as Hinterland, Republic, and Quincy's. You have the pub fare and some quick eats places. But you also need the family friendly restaurant, you need the fast food joints. Reasons these establishments won't locate downtown is not enough daytime or night time traffic to be successful. A baseball stadium used 30 nights out of 365 will not convince those establishments to be downtown. In addition, the nighttime and daytime population isn't there either yet. A baseball stadium alone would not be the reason I chose to live in a condo or apartment downtown. All these pieces fitting together will help downtown turn the corner. One alone is not enough for anyone to say the downtown has turned the corner. the "City Deck" alone is not the missing link. It is a component, much like a fictional baseball stadium, and much like additional residential, retail, and office uses that will someday fill empty buildings and cause the need for new ones to be constructed. There is no density to the downtown. That doesn't mean 50 story buildings will solve that but a great numebr of complimentary uses located in a tight cluster that creates that stret life and desire for people to be in a place that is unique and cannot be replicated in a suburban location. Condos near Lambeau aren't that attractive right now because it is not a stadium district, although it is called that. Again, as these areas evolve and become those things I think that there will be enough people to make these areas successful. However, it is the mentality that expansive parking and one level boxes is what Green Bay is and always will be. There is enough here to make a change, but there is no magic bullet.

I think the thing is is all of these projects are pieces of a big puzzle. You can't just build a theater or a baseball stadium or a condo....all of these things need to come together at the same time to create the ecosystem of live,work play.

I can only speak from my experience. I live downtown. I do not work DT but both my wife and I have tried.

Unfortunately,our efforts to get work DT have not gone well.

I had a job interview at a DT restaurant and it was easily the worst interview I've ever had. I was told one thing,got there..found it to be something else and was rushed out the door in 3 minutes w/o getting to ask any questions. Then, they call 2 weeks later to offer a job after the people they hired ahead of me had already quit.

My wife had an interview at a place and it was the most unprofessional interview she had ever experienced. She gets there and the guy is like "can I help you?"

He then says,I'm busy can you come back tomorrow?

The next night he has a server conduct the interview because he again couldn't be bothered.

Lets just say we won't be eating at either of these places ever.

I wouldn't give either place much hope for the future.

Play? Play where,at KI Convention Center? Or maybe the shops that close at 6pm?

We were excited to move DT and to hop the bandwagon. I drank the koolaid...things were 'looking up' we were told.

We still love our place but the rest of it is just depressing.

'Have patience' is a broken record and this whole Vetter Denk thing is a just a sick joke. All they do is change the name every 10 months. How about a damn shovel in the ground? They could call it PooCenter for all I care of something were to just get built.


Thing is,the reasons and excuses don't fly anymore because we've been hearing them for 20 years.

I like the concept and if I were single or childless I would be buying.
think

Me too. I wish we had tried harder to find a place in Astor Neighborhood or nearby (we lived in a small house on S. Van buren but when the kids came along we had to move). Schools were an issue, though we probably didn't give Howe enough of a chance. We looked into moving back over here and sending the kids to Aldo Leopold, but it's just too tough to change anything now.

But yeah if I was single I'd be down there no doubt; the suburbs would be far more boring to me as a single guy than even our broken downtown is.

I There needs to be a balance of uses that creates a 24/7 place to work, live, and play... However, it is the mentality that expansive parking and one level boxes is what Green Bay is and always will be. There is enough here to make a change, but there is no magic bullet.

Yes, absolutely we need a balance of uses. THat's what downtowns are all about. Somehow our American society or culture got away from thinking that there are indeed such things as multi-use places. It's that so many developments over the last 40 years have been so big, grandiose, gargantuan, we as a society seem to have forgotten what smaller, more organic and mixed use/mixed owner developents are, we expect everyting big and to be done all-at-once like a mall or a 100 acre business park or 300 acre industrial park or something. I believe we're entering a time of reversal from these patterns.

Green Bay used to have this, so why should it be "expansive parking and one level boxes is and always will be"? It wasn't always this way, only the last 30 years or so. Reading history, talking to older folks, and looking at pictures of Green Bay shows me that it used to be a pretty good urban mixed-use center....not expansive parking. Heck it even had tallish buildings...supported by trolleys. But that's another story, but we do need to keep this in mind because it's key. None of this is kooky or nostalgic craziness. The old will be new again.



I can only speak from my experience. I live downtown. I do not work DT but both my wife and I have tried.

Unfortunately,our efforts to get work DT have not gone well.

Play? Play where,at KI Convention Center? Or maybe the shops that close at 6pm?

We still love our place but the rest of it is just depressing.


Sorry to hear of your bad experience. I do enjoy working downtown, when I lived in the riversedge apartments, it was a different vibe during certain times of the day...I know what you mean about that depressing feeling you get when everyone's gone in certain hours and on weekends. It's eerie. What could change that? People of course, we need more people down there at ALL times of the day. Get more people, and we get more places; but since there aren't enough attractive places, there aren't more people. Chicken. Egg. Egg. Chicken. .

FYI - one location im looking are DT CONDOS!

I was assigned a Hotel Revenue assignment today in class here at Stout which got me thinking, is there more visible signs of construction on the aloft hotel site near Fratello's. Does it seem that it will be completed by their new March 26th opening deadline?

I was assigned a Hotel Revenue assignment today in class here at Stout which got me thinking, is there more visible signs of construction on the aloft hotel site near Fratello's. Does it seem that it will be completed by their new March 26th opening deadline?

It looks quite far along from the outside, at least when whizzing by on hwy 172. I don't dare look for too long at that speed, but from what I could tell, I'd guess that March 26 opening is doable.

Did anyone go to the Flats on the Fox open house and check it out? Just wondering how it looked from the inside. They are 3/4 leased, so that's a positive sign. Putting some bodies downtown.
Come fourth of July, whoever has a river view balcony, will have the best seat in the city.

I think I have found a way to get everything we want built downtown...."The Detroit City Council passed a resolution today calling for a $10-billion bailout for the city of Detroit."

That was easy enough........I've anteed up. Kinda feels like I'm playing solitaire though..........I was at the ribbon cutting and the people were very nice and all excited. Toured the units and they were nice enough, basic as I expected. It did kinda get me in the mood to ride the elevator down to the boardwalk/CityDeck, jump on my 10 speed and cruise the Fox Trail..........

HermosaBeachBoy- Did they have any more pictures of what the units in the Watermark might look like? Also, it says they start at 139k. How much do they go up to?

That was easy enough........I've anteed up. Kinda feels like I'm playing solitaire though..........I was at the ribbon cutting and the people were very nice and all excited. Toured the units and they were nice enough, basic as I expected. It did kinda get me in the mood to ride the elevator down to the boardwalk/CityDeck, jump on my 10 speed and cruise the Fox Trail..........

Congrats! I wish you teh best and hope this comes to fruition.:cheers:

That was easy enough........I've anteed up. Kinda feels like I'm playing solitaire though..........I was at the ribbon cutting and the people were very nice and all excited. Toured the units and they were nice enough, basic as I expected. It did kinda get me in the mood to ride the elevator down to the boardwalk/CityDeck, jump on my 10 speed and cruise the Fox Trail..........

I hope there are a lot more people like you interested, so this thing can get moving. Another question...what was the parking situation. Are you guaranteed a parking spot in the parking ramp or somewhere else? Did they give you any idea when they are hoping to start the construction and how many units they need to sell to start?

If everything comes together downtown, I think you will have a great place with the city dec & the fox river trail next to you. I'm a little jealous...just a little.

There are only 3 available larger than 860 sq ft going to 160,000 or so..but bear in mind these prices are for "bare bones" units.........there will be many ups and extras I expect for true livability........unless you want to buy (3) side by side and punch a hole in the wall..........all have river view - no balconies..........everthing is still up in the air and subject to change....................not really suitable for families exactly..ok for me.......not enought room for my ex-girlfriends to come back or my brother to move in..........I've always kinda been a "jump in the fire" kinda guy.....we'll see what happens...............

(1) stall per unit covered located above the Childrens Museum. Additional stalls available for more $$ probably on the ramp across the way with a walk?? Like I said the whole project is still iffy..... they are tring for end of Summer next year..............talk to Chad Micoley at Micoley's for all their input.......no pictures...just use your imagination!

Good luck Herm-
I took some pics today of the area near your new digs--
Below: Yet another river view shot...
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/DSCN2421.jpg

Below: CityDeck construction is underway:
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/DSCN2425.jpg

Below: The Wash St side of the new building. I was hoping for larger overhang thingies...
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/DSCN2431.jpg

Below: The mall amputation is a little bit less gory now...
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/DSCN2432.jpg

Below: The interior of the former Oxfords has always been one of my favorite places in DT. It sucks to see it sit here empty...
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/DSCN2433.jpg

Is this primarily a parking ramp or a museum?
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/ChildrensMuseum20081111.jpg

Shopko Express finished..
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/DSCN2420.jpg

When looking at the picture that shows the construction of the city deck. the whole river front still looks so gloomy. I know it was probably a cloudy and crummy day outside, but the picture is still missing color. Every building is just so brown and gray. almost depressing.

the river front is gloomy right now because it is under construction. :) it will look ten times different by next year at this time. i have one question on the redevelopment of the riverfront. what is the crane on the barge doing? are they making a new sea wall?

the river front is gloomy right now because it is under construction. :) it will look ten times different by next year at this time. i have one question on the redevelopment of the riverfront. what is the crane on the barge doing? are they making a new sea wall?
Driving pilings for the city deck from what it looks like.

(1) stall per unit covered located above the Childrens Museum. Additional stalls available for more $$ probably on the ramp across the way with a walk?? Like I said the whole project is still iffy..... they are tring for end of Summer next year..............talk to Chad Micoley at Micoley's for all their input.......no pictures...just use your imagination!

Hermosa-Congrats on being the first buyer on Watermark! I have a couple of more questions for you if you don't mind:)

1.) When you mentioned no balconies, does that mean that all of the balconies shown on the renders will no longer be incorporated (I hope that they do not take these out!) into the project, or they still will but just not be a part of the living units?

2.) "They are trying for end of summer next year." Does this mean start of construction or a targeted move in?

3.) Was it mentioned if they anticipate other buyers soon, what the presales needed to be or anything of that nature?

Mention was made the other day regarding the antique four-sided clock in the mall property and disposal of it. It looks like the city tried to find interest in the clock asking both T Wall and Bellin Hospital to no avail as neither party was interested. The clock was built in Winona, Mississippi and has a special meaning to that community and will return there. Somewhere on Broadway would have been cool and would make for a interest piece. Better yet, I liked the idea too of placing it somewhere near that property as a symbol of the past with respect to new development and the future. It was interesting that T Wall did not want it. Has anyone heard anymore rumblings with that site? Ifyoubuildit stated that he had heard they were backing out, and I hope that is just an unsubstantiated rumor and nothing more. If they come through, we are on to something special here.

http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/mins_agd/

Steve-Are you still lurking around here anymore? I would love to hear if you have any news regarding your proposal for the Daily Planet. Your plan for the reflective green glass sounded cool.

Did anyone go to the Flats on the Fox open house and check it out? Just wondering how it looked from the inside. They are 3/4 leased, so that's a positive sign. Putting some bodies downtown.
Come fourth of July, whoever has a river view balcony, will have the best seat in the city.I was lucky enought to make it down, I guess that the interior was maybe more basic & blan (colors were all rather dull -I guess neutral)then I expected, but for the price very nice. I felt that the units they had open were all unique layouts and each one had a different perspective. I think my fav layout (that was open) was the unit on the 3rd flr on the riverside looking north. The 8th floor had a fitness room, a large gathering room and a huge rooftop patio- (now there would be a great place to watch the fireworks- hint if anyone is a renter there you can invite the ssc clan- I'll bring some titletown beer). But I think the view I was most surprised with was the view to the east over looking the mall and beyond.

I am not sure on the turnout but when I was there I would consider it to be rather brisk-(they were providing free donuts- so I am not sure). Overall I feel very hopeful on the future and I really feel that the mall needs to be the next piece- after the re-branded rivercenter that is...:cheers:

Hermosa-Congrats on being the first buyer on Watermark! I have a couple of more questions for you if you don't mind:)

1.) When you mentioned no balconies, does that mean that all of the balconies shown on the renders will no longer be incorporated (I hope that they do not take these out!) into the project, or they still will but just not be a part of the living units?

2.) "They are trying for end of summer next year." Does this mean start of construction or a targeted move in?

3.) Was it mentioned if they anticipate other buyers soon, what the presales needed to be or anything of that nature?

1.) We only talked residential - no balconies (for now - I vote for putting them in for sure by the end of this thing)

2.) I'm just guessing they will be lucky to get it finalized by end of year - no digging - just my guess - although they would love to break ground at first thaw ain fill them up by end of summer!

3.) They say they have had other intersted parties and are also working on the commercial end too.

My point of view: This project is really... really at the infant stage.......anything can change at anytime and depends upon lots of other factors too, I imagine. We just need lots of people with an open mind and willing to let the project "flower" into whatever species it will be.......

[QUOTE=Puant;28007454]Good luck Herm-
I took some pics today of the area near your new digs--
Below: Yet another river view shot...

Thanks PU!

Great Pics........I think you should put out your own "Better by the Bay" postcards!

My understanding is that the Children's museum will occupy the first floor, and that there will be two floors of parking above. At one time they were talking about a second phase where they would construct office space above the parking, I have no idea if that's still floating as an idea. Congratulations Hermosa Beach Boy, I'm aware of another buyer, so you won't be alone!

My understanding is that the Children's museum will occupy the first floor, and that there will be two floors of parking above. At one time they were talking about a second phase where they would construct office space above the parking, I have no idea if that's still floating as an idea. Congratulations Hermosa Beach Boy, I'm aware of another buyer, so you won't be alone!

That concept seems strange to me. Logistically, are you really going to have a business open to the public, people coming & going out of a ramp, all the time have construction going on 4 floors up? I can't see that happening--seems like the construction would be too intrusive to what is already there. If they don't build that office space right away, I can't see it really happening...

Always seemed a little strange to me too ;)

Have people moved into the new building yet? If so, has anyone notice an increase of foot traffic in the area?

Have people moved into the new building yet? If so, has anyone notice an increase of foot traffic in the area?

Yes, people have been living in Flats on the Fox for probably close to a month. The small parking lot they built where Astor Place is suppose to go is packed full & they probably could use a few more spots. As far as foot traffic, I don't get that way during the daytime much, but in the evening it's pretty quiet.

I've been inside the Shopko Express pharmacy, and yes, it is very nice. It's just a basic pharmacy with the type of service you'd expect to find at Shopko's full-line stores. They even have beer, wine, and soda. :cheers:

I found out that the third floor will house the chamber of commerce. Talk about being on top of the world, or at least the city!

That concept seems strange to me. Logistically, are you really going to have a business open to the public, people coming & going out of a ramp, all the time have construction going on 4 floors up? I can't see that happening--seems like the construction would be too intrusive to what is already there. If they don't build that office space right away, I can't see it really happening...

I agree. I wish they could just build it up right now, even just on speculation as an empty shell.

Had a little more time tonight to putz around with the baseball stadium idea. Here's what I came up with tonight...Yeah I still want to make the stadium wall cooler, more retro whatever rather than just the brick wall; maybe tomorrow...

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/brownfieldStadium3b.jpg

I really wanted to work in a perspective to show what views of the little bit of skyline there would be from the stadium. It's tough but this is what I was able to do: (background photo courtesy of Ryan Photography (http://www.ryanphotography.com/))

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/brownfieldStadium_Skyline3_PHOTOSHO.jpg

P.S. as for the other sites proposed on here: There just isn't enough room to fit in a baseball field onto the Mall Site or Larsen Green site. Existing uses, RR tracks, etc just won't allow it. If we're talking about a baseball stadium downtown, the oNLY place it will fit is the brownfield site.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/sizing_6ac.jpg

I agree. I wish they could just build it up right now, even just on speculation as an empty shell.

Had a little more time tonight to putz around with the baseball stadium idea. Here's what I came up with tonight...Yeah I still want to make the stadium wall cooler, more retro whatever rather than just the brick wall; maybe tomorrow...

[/IMG]

Wow, even more impressive photos / illustrations.

That concept seems strange to me. Logistically, are you really going to have a business open to the public, people coming & going out of a ramp, all the time have construction going on 4 floors up? I can't see that happening--seems like the construction would be too intrusive to what is already there. If they don't build that office space right away, I can't see it really happening...
A building near my company's space in the prudential building is doing just this. Check out http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=bluecrossblueshieldtower-chicago-il-usa.

Nice work on the stadium stuff. Is your renderings to scale. I really doubt there is enough space there for the stadium and that much parking on site. When you start adding seating for 3000+, concourses, play area's, party decks etc, etc it's going to take up a lot more space. All the area on the south side of the inlet I guess would be all stadium.

^^Yep, this is all to scale. It might have to be adjusted but only slightly. Just about as much parking could be accomodated as shown on the south side of the slip, plus the north side (if ever filled with the buldings as shown) would offer a lot more parking--even if the businesses were located on the north side, the employees would likely be clearing out before game time to free up the parking space. Additionally, there would be more parking on the other side of the RR tracks. I really don't think parking or any other size matters would be an issue; things of course would have to be tweaked but I don't see a 'show stopper' problem here.

Regarding ShopKo Express. I've not been in, but I just learned that they didn't put in an entrance from the corner of Dousman and Broadway. That blows. Oh well, still a very positive addition.

Puant, a couple of notes of constructive criticism. First, if it were me, I'd put the stadium right up to Broadway, perhaps with a row of angle parking along the street for handicapped access to games and for people who want to visit the team offices/store on non-game days. You'd lose that bit of parking, but that's not enough parking for many people anyway, and putting the facade to the street seems more urban to me. Also, by doing that, it allows for room for a party deck in the right field corner of the outfield. These decks seem to be important to teams like this, and by having the deck between the river and the field it could become a really nice place that might have some potential to be used on non game days, and it really shouldn't affect the river views of people in the grandstands significantly. Maybe even room for a plaza or some public space or something. I guess my point is that one key to this would be making it usable more than 30 days a year, and having options for use along the river probably helps that cause more than that bit of parking does.

Finally, having grandstands all the way down the lines is probably unrealistic, and actually has some drawbacks. Think of Fox Cities Stadium. The seats only extend just past 1st and 3rd bases, then there's the grass general admission seating. And that stadium is larger than one is Green Bay is likely to be. Plus the grass seating is a great place for families with kids who want to be able to run around a bit. Plus is keeps the cost of the park down because it's still seating but less grandstand to build.

So those are my thoughts. Nice work though, your renderings really help visualize the concept.

I'm an idiot. It can't be up to the road because of the RR tracks. Nonetheless, I'd still shift away from the river and not have parking between the road and the grandstand.

Puant, a couple of notes of constructive criticism...
Finally, having grandstands all the way down the lines is probably unrealistic, and actually has some drawbacks. Think of Fox Cities Stadium. The seats only extend just past 1st and 3rd bases, then there's the grass general admission seating. And that stadium is larger than one is Green Bay is likely to be. Plus the grass seating is a great place for families with kids who want to be able to run around a bit. Plus is keeps the cost of the park down because it's still seating but less grandstand to build.

So those are my thoughts. Nice work though, your renderings really help visualize the concept.

Yeah, that specific stadium was not modelled by me. Again, it is just something I downloaded for free from the "3D warehouse" because it happened to have the correctly-scaled infield and outfield. The seating is not well-placed but this was the only free model that had seating relatively close to the right size for the Green Bay market and for that specific site.
It would be better to have more of a "wraparound" type seating that enables fans to face more towards the infield, like the Fox CIties stadium and many other modern stadiums. I looked for one like that; However I could not find one on the free 3D warehouse that fit the bill so I just went with this one.

Right now I don't think I feel like drawing up a whole stadium from scratch. I think I've killed enough of my own time and energy on this.

I just hope I conveyed and helped visualize this concept, because I think it's a good one. A lot of elements come together to make this a great site for this. THe rest is out of my control and really none of my business, and I don't want to step on any toes here. I sense I may have done that already.

Anyone catch the brief mention on the TV news regarding (City Deck - is it Safe?) comments or discussions which are continuing and/or planned?

A friend of mine has made the comment that the BIG BOATS get really really close to the WaterMark front steps.............:bash:

What news channel did you hear that on? What did they all say?

What news channel did you hear that on? What did they all say?

WLUK is doing a story on Wed about the "safety" of city deck.

WLUK is doing a story on Wed about the "safety" of city deck.

I was kind of wondering about the lack of railings visible in the drawings...maybe that's normal for decks by the water. But with kids running around, it could be a issue with a river flowing underneath. There could be railings, I have no idea.

....oh thanks..........NOW I remember.......sort of........

I have actually watched people walk up to the building and walk around it trying to find the entrance.

My guess is the thinking was to put it where the parking is but it does seem out of place to me.

Regarding ShopKo Express. I've not been in, but I just learned that they didn't put in an entrance from the corner of Dousman and Broadway. That blows. Oh well, still a very positive addition.

I was kind of wondering about the lack of railings visible in the drawings...maybe that's normal for decks by the water. But with kids running around, it could be a issue with a river flowing underneath. There could be railings, I have no idea.

I'll tell my kids to grab hold of one of the dead carp floating by if they should fall off.

Seriously, I'm sure safety considerations, ship traffic, and other considerations were, well ahh, considered. Not that it hurts to take another good look at safety, but I suspect this "news" story is just some more sensational infotainment.

additional uses for the stadium to justify its cost...

-seating for fireworks

-rental for parties/weddings/company picnics

-hold a 'grandstand' concert there for bayfest...still have your mini stages for bar bands but get a C level country or classic rock act to play the stadium on friday night

-?

I was kind of wondering about the lack of railings visible in the drawings...maybe that's normal for decks by the water. But with kids running around, it could be a issue with a river flowing underneath. There could be railings, I have no idea.
This one time I was at the Grand canyon and they didn't have railings. I wonder what would happen if someone would happen to fall??? Sounds to me like that buffalo theory...

As far as the ball field idea. Anyone have a rough cost estimate of a similar sized stadium? What are we talking? 5 mil? 15 mil? Hell maybe we can get some free fill from Bay Beach or better yet the river dredging and then just seed it and have all grass seats then maybe we get er' done for like 250k. I admit the idea is awesome but how likely is something like this to happen? A riverfront site with a structure that will be used less then 50 days a year. Where is this justification? Its not like we are talking about the Packers...

With the track record of this city's government and the current state of the economy that site will likely be empty for a long long time. :ohno:

PU you said "I'll tell my kids to grab hold of one of the dead carp floating by if they should fall off."

Now that is being a true boy scout - be prepared..........pretty darn funny too!:lol:

. I admit the idea is awesome but how likely is something like this to happen?
About as likely as Vetter ever completing another building downtown.

Of course you'll have people who will be against it because it's not something that can be used from Oct through March but again,it goes back to the whole puzzle concept.

Just exactly what kind of DT are we trying to build here?

Sure..there are nice apartments DT...banks...office....some fine restaurants...a few ok shops...BUT WHAT IS THERE TO DO!

I mean...if you want to vote no on the stadium because it's a summer facility all I can say is I'll use it more than I use some existing structures.

I have yet to step inside the KI or Meyer.

But a stadium? I'd be there at least 1 night a week.

Again,back to that puzzle deal....offer options. No,not everybody is gonna care about a stadium but lots of people would.

I'm sure old Aunt Betty and the kids from Madison have seen Bay Beach 1000 times now on their annual summer visit.....this would give families another choice on a hot July night AND....the whole point is it would get those folks downtown who would otherwise spend the day on Oneida St.

I'm thinking of what it would do for those Broadway shops....I'm thinking of the festive atmosphere when tied in with the farmers market.

It's about offering up a full slate of choices for DT.

The absolute best thing for DT would have been the arena but that is no longer possible so this is the next best 'signature' facility.

A 15 floor office tower and a laundromat aren't gonna get this done.

additional uses for the stadium to justify its cost...hold a 'grandstand' concert there for bayfest...

Not that this is a bad idea, it isn't, but in general we need to remember that the site most commonly being talked about here for this hypothetical stadium is a pretty good little hike from the festival grounds and the bulk of the Broadway stores, etc. Now, in theory it could be a tool to help develop that area, but we'd have to be realistic about what it would tie into and how much it would help businesses in other parts of the downtown.

This one time I was at the Grand canyon and they didn't have railings. I wonder what would happen if someone would happen to fall???

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Of course you'll have people who will be against it because it's not something that can be used from Oct through March but again,it goes back to the whole puzzle concept.

Just exactly what kind of DT are we trying to build here?

Sure..there are nice apartments DT...banks...office....some fine restaurants...a few ok shops...BUT WHAT IS THERE TO DO!

...I have yet to step inside the KI or Meyer.

It seems like people disregard the Meyer too much. Just because you haven't been there doesn't mean that it isn't something to do. But really, what you're hitting in is important when discussion attractions like the Meyer or a stadium. None of these make a place vibrant. Most people will never use places like these more than five or ten times a year (if that), and without other things all the people who do use them will do is come, see a show/game, then leave.

This is why something like the CityDeck is so important, as it's a place that functions all the time, gathers people in multiple ways, and ties into the existing shops/restaurants/etc. As you say, it's all a puzzle, and you need all the pieces. You need attractions, you need retail, you need office, you need residential, and you need gathering spaces. In my view, the biggest missing pieces are A) we need a greater downtown residential population, and B) we need a quality gathering place.

I mean...if you want to vote no on the stadium because it's a summer facility all I can say is I'll use it more than I use some existing structures.

Who's voting? What are we voting on? Who's against this? Really, so far, this is a nice daydream. It's fun to think about, it's fun to look at Puant's renderings, but there's no plan. How can we say if it's really a good idea or not without any plan or any plan to have a plan?


The absolute best thing for DT would have been the arena but that is no longer possible so this is the next best 'signature' facility.

A 15 floor office tower and a laundromat aren't gonna get this done.

First, I want to be clear that I'm not trying to pick on you at all, I don't disagree with much of what you say, it's just that your post offers a good touching off point for much of what I've been thinking about recently.

One thing that I think is important to remember is that NO ONE THING IS GOING TO SAVE THE DOWNTOWN. To say that "A 15 floor office tower and a laundromat aren't gonna get this done" isn't a relevant statement, nor is it relevant when ifyoubuildit claims that a ball park will save the downtown and the absence of one will doom it. Things line a ball park, an office building, a laundromat, and the CityDeck don't serve the same purpose... don't fill the same roles. None of them can "save" the downtown in and of themselves, all are dependent on one another and other factors to combine (back to your puzzle analogy) to make the downtown whole.

In that vein, my personal review of the state of some of these components:

1) Residential - Important because it creates a stable base of users downtown, and users who tend to be out more in the evenings and on weekends (as compared to office workers). A residential base also creates a group of stakeholders in the downtown because it is their home.

Whether you like how they look or not, Riverfront Lofts and Fox Lofts have combined with Riverfront Place (or whatever the Washington Sq. Apts. are called) and Rivers Edge Apts. to begin building a residential base downtown. We need more. We also need to do better improving the near downtown neighborhoods and connecting them with the downtown.

2) Office - Important because it creates another stable base of users, and one that is downtown during the week day. Also, this is a source quality jobs for downtown residents, making a more compact lifestyle possible. Also, having businesses downtown helps create a group of corporate citizens who are invested in seeing the downtown succeed.

In Green Bay, office use is one of the big success stories of the downtown. IIRC, someone on here made reference to there being a lot of vacant office space. In truth, buildings such as Johnson Bank, the Bellin Building, Nicolet Bank, Baylake Bank, and the Regency Center are full or virtually full. That's just leaseable space, and doesn't include places like Assocaited Bank or City/County buildings. All told, we're looking at something like a 90 to 95% occupancy of the downtown's quality office space. That a real strength and something that needs to be promoted and built upon!

3) Venues/Attractions - Things like museums, theaters, sports venues, conference centers, etc. These are destination places that bring people in from the entire area as well as serving the downtown. They tend to bring in large numbers of people at a time, but only function during certain programmed times (in the case of a theater or sports facility) or aren't places you'd go to terribly often even if they are open all the time (like a museum). Important for bringing people into the area, who then have the option to eat out or shop at the same time, or just hang out a bit.

GB has the KI Center, The Meyer Theatre, and The Neville Museum. Another attraction would be nice, no doubt.

4) Gathering spaces - Not necessarily a destination in and of themselves (though they can be if done right and programmed right), but places that gather people so that there can be life. In the absence of gathering spaces that keep people out where they can be seen, people may come and go from a downtown but never will there be vibrancy.

Downtown Green Bay has none that work. I believe the CityDeck will help solve this.

5) Retail/Restaurants - I think we know what the role of this is in creating life.

As far as GB is concerned, we of course need more, but I think the important distinction is that retail is in many ways a follower. If you do the above things right, stores will come to sell people things.

---

Okay, so this is getting long. But my point is that A) in a lot of ways we're making good progress, and that shouldn't be overlooked, and B) It's not as though an office building won't save the downtown but an aquarium will. We need ALL of them, as they all fill distinct roles that are all necessary. We can talk about how a baseball stadium in "needed" to bring people down, but that will never be enough people on it's own to support business without the residential and office to create a consistent base, nor will it add life to the downtown if you haven't create a place to gather. Similarly, the CityDeck can't work if you aren't drawing people downtown for other reasons such as to go to a show or a game. This talk that we don't need to focus on one, that we really need to build another is meaningless... we need to be improving ALL.

In my estimation, the pressing needs are residential and gathering space. With the credit situation, a huge amount of new residential is a big ask (though Fox Lofts did just open, and is filling up!), but we can focus on the CityDeck, which will really help. A ball park is nice, and I'd support it, but we already have several venues that attract significantly more people in a year than the Bullfrogs have to this point, and so I just don't see a stadium as being transformative.

I'll shut up now.

We also need to do better improving the near downtown neighborhoods and connecting them with the downtown.



I couldn’t agree more with this statement. Navarino, Seymour Park and Fort Howard neighborhoods lie adjacent to the Downtown and Broadway districts. The connection needs to be made to bring residents of these neighborhoods into the fold. The Fort Howard Neighborhood Association is currently not meeting, Seymour Park meets quarterly and Navarino meets monthly.

In Navarino we also have weekly neighborhood walks on Wednesdays year round. After our walks we have games of Kubb, a lawn game similar to Jarts, at Navarino Park that children and adults enjoy. During the summer we promote literacy with our Stories in the Park program where a community leader reads to youngsters from a children's book. All the children get a copy to read along with and afterwords they get to take the book home as their very own. This program is very popular and neighborhood children look forward to it.

Every summer we have our Walk to the Park gathering event. We serve food and refreshments provided by the Green Bay School District. A similar Walk Downtown event could be held on the City Deck.

Right now with the credit crunch, WHEDA isn’t making any new loans and one of the products they offered, a low interest loan for converting an apartment house back into a single-family home isn’t available. That leaves homebuyers with approval for standard mortgage products looking at the lower costing homes in these neighborhoods as opposed to the higher priced homes in the ‘burbs. Perceptions of the inner-city neighborhoods need to be addressed so that candidates for the purchase of homes in these areas do not shy away from these properties when the realtor that’s working with them mentions availability of older homes in these neighborhoods.

The other thing is that there are plenty of vacant lots that can be built upon. The city regularly buys distressed and nuisance properties and razes the buildings on them. If these properties could be marketed to potential homeowners that are looking to build new, there would be a gradual recoup of property taxes that were lost when the city took ownership of the lots. That would shift the demographic of the neighborhoods to a more positive one from chopped up apartment houses to single family residences.

Like the downtown puzzle as a whole, pieces need to be in place to make the neighborhoods turn around and thrive. More single family housing and active neighborhood associations to address resident's concerns will do a great deal to bring about the needed changes.

Yeah, I used to live on Oak Grove Ave. just a half block from Kroll's east (mmmmm... Kroll's....) and I loved it there, but you could really tell the difference between owned houses and rented houses. Not that all the renters were bad, but the bad eggs were renters. Fortunately, my house was surrounded by good owners. So it was a good neighborhood and we never felt unsafe at all, but as soon as you get too many properties were the owner is absent and the person living in the house has little at stake in the neighborhood, it makes is harder to avoid problems. It's not that there aren't going to be renters, it's more an issue of trying to reduce the concentration of rented properties as well as trying to get more of the renters "invested" (if not financially, then socially or otherwise) in the well being of the neighborhood.

Also, this is why I continue to like having a facility like Joannes as home to the Bullfrogs. It helps promote quite a large neighborhood which is adjacent to downtown. Helping places like that can go a long way to improving many things both in and out of the downtown.

I'm sad to hear that those WHEDA programs are on hold. We took advantage of a WHEDA loan for our first home, and it helped us and I'd like to think that in turn we improved the home we were living in.

Yeah, there is holism in all of these discussions about the city and the downtown.

The stadium is just one idea, just something I happened to focus on lately because I think it's worthy of consideration at this time if indeed the Bullfrogs are looking to move. And I can see why they might want to move--Johannes is a nice little park, but it may be more suited for what it is: high school and legion games. If you look at the stadiums that the other Northwoods League teams play in, this does not match up. It's not that I don't like the current location, but I'm just saying, if they are indeed going to move, I think the brownfield site ought to be at least considered because of all of the elements that sort of come together--the availability, the viewlines, the waterfront, etc. Is it perfect? No but no site ever will be, this just happens to be pretty good, it was a good idea whoever came up with it and I just wanted to try flesh out the idea a little bit more and see if something like this could indeed fit on that site. And I found out it does fit, and it would be kinda cool.

I'm NOT normally a proponent of sticking a stadium into a downtown, as a rule, because too many times these sorts of things (stadiums, arenas, etc) were deemed as "the magic cure-all" when in fact they almost never are. Usually they do more harm than good. However, I think the brownfield site is unique in the sense that in this case, as stadium would be It is a large, vacant, blighted yet visible site up against the Mason St bridge. It is tough to get any other business to locate there, it is a somewhat challenged site. The other plans that were drawn up for that site (the 'riverfront grilles' and stuff) are going to be hard to get started there. The stadium addresses the challenges quite well, actually.

Perhaps the only other "highest and best use" of this brownfield site is as a port facility. If you read my blog you know that I'm for port use, too. That would be all right with me too. It's proven to have been an extreme challenge to get anything else onto that site, even after the contamination was removed.

'Nuf said. Again, yes we do need that holistic thinking about all of the city. All the different parts. I just wish there was more actual news to report on, all we seem to have is philosophical ideals and fantasies to go on in recent months, aside from a boardwalk and a few other things. Sucks when there's no money.

One thing I'd add to Danillo's "Top 10 List" or whatever is the need to move people around the downtown in a better way than what currently exists, particularly to move them over the bridges from the east side to the west side etc.

Last week I took a walk along the Cora Vanderperren Trail that winds around behind East High and the Joannes Stadium and when I got to the footbridge I started thinking about the parking for baseball games. I wondered how bad the situation is and how many more spaces were needed. Does the lot behind East High on Baird St. get fully used? I imagine that the lot on Kurtz Ave as well as the street must fill up along with the ones for the Aquatic Center and Skate Park. How many cars are parked along Walnut in front of East High? I know I've seen parking along Baird St. during games. How many additional parking spaces are needed or is it the case of just having the parking directly next to the stadium? I guess I don't see an issue of parking at Joannes. Could attendance at games be improved if there were more parking? Probably, if a new stadium has additional seating.

The brownfield site is a cool location, but it will look a lot more attractive from a development standpoint when the coal piles get moved. With all the great work of Puant's drawings it brings forward at least the notion that site has potential, and raises the possibilities for many different developments in the future. Also, with the coal piles gone there comes possibilities for State St. redevelopment

I'd like to see the block on Broadway between Howard and Arndt streets come back to life. I really like the Googie architecture of the old root beer stand on the East side of the street and it would be cool if it were to one day be brought back to life.

When are the coal piles supposed to be move?

Nativist (I think this was you that mentioned this)-If you don't mind me asking, what have you heard about development on that site, ie developers, plans, etc?

When are the coal piles supposed to be move?

Nativist (I think this was you that mentioned this)-If you don't mind me asking, what have you heard about development on that site, ie developers, plans, etc?

From what I heard, the coal piles on the south side of the Mason St bridge will not be moving any time soon. There were some plans to create a new, large slip farther down-river, just south of the I-43 bridge which would allow the C. Reiss business to expand, move the coal piles to a more industrial area, and open up the site south of Mason St for something less dirty. HOwever these plans are apparently dead. Not sure if they couldn't get the funding or what.

If there is interest from a developer on the part NORTH of Mason St, where I'm thinking the ballpark would fit, I'd be interested to see what the plans/thoughts are. Some of the older renderings that I posted on Packerland Annals blog were interesting, just not very realistic because of the site challenges. You really need a very very unique and strong "magnet" for this site, I believe. Restaurants aren't probably going to be strong enough, whereas a ballpark would, at least during certain times during the summer. However, lettting the ballpark be a nice looking "buffer" between the dark underbelly of the Mason St bridge and the coal piles might help some other uses come to fruition as I show on the render (http://picasaweb.google.com/gBayPacker/Brownfield#5269111233246406162). At least, that's part of the idea.

So what else can we talk about? How are the 'Prestige Place' towers coming along? I think there is something going on in the "Old Main" area isn't there? You know, the more I look at the new apartments on Washington (the Vetter ones) the more I warm up to them. If the rest of that area can eventually look less like 1945 Berlin , this part of dowontown might all turn out OK..

as far as the coal piles go. i recall a few years ago when they talked about moving those piles that all the planning, studies, permits, funding and everything else was going to take upwards of 10years. whether it is still alive or not is another story but i would imagine that planning and permitting is still going on but is behind a lot of closed doors at this time. so take that for what it is worth

The latest estimate that I've heard from a credible source is around 12 years to move the coal piles. As far as the brownfield goes, there's a man with a plan (and financing). There's one other site that's being considered, but odds are good.

The latest estimate that I've heard from a credible source is around 12 years to move the coal piles. As far as the brownfield goes, there's a man with a plan (and financing). There's one other site that's being considered, but odds are good.

Plan and financing for what exactly? A stadium or just to move the coal piles?

The coal is a separate issue from the Brownfield site. They're still looking for money to move the coal piles, I know that Kohl (no pun intended) was able to get an earmark for part of it, but there's quite a bit more to be raised. As for the brownfield, I would have been more specific if I could. I wouldn't have mentioned it except I wanted this discussion of the stadium to take account of the fact that there is potential activity (at long last) at this site. Nothing's locked in yet, and it's possible that nothing will happen. But it's also possible that we're at the cusp of the brownfield being taken off of the market. My only point is that if anyone here has a relationship with the Bullfrogs and if the owner of the team has any interest in the idea, then they need to act.

But it's also possible that we're at the cusp of the brownfield being taken off of the market. My only point is that if anyone here has a relationship with the Bullfrogs and if the owner of the team has any interest in the idea, then they need to act.

I e-mailed the Bullfrogs 2-3 days ago to see if they were aware of our little discussion and whether they would be interested in joining the discussion. I haven't heard back yet.

It's a lot of fun to think about plans and create some renders of the stadium, and I think the site would be great. But we probably should find out about the proposed plan for the brownfield, and whether the Bullfrogs are at all interested in the idea, before spending much more time on the idea.

I e-mailed the Bullfrogs 2-3 days ago to see if they were aware of our little discussion and whether they would be interested in joining the discussion. I haven't heard back yet.

It's a lot of fun to think about plans and create some renders of the stadium, and I think the site would be great. But we probably should find out about the proposed plan for the brownfield, and whether the Bullfrogs are at all interested in the idea, before spending much more time on the idea.

If you go to Puants website...Someone claiming to be from the bullfrogs was responding to his article. There were actually quite a few responses. I'm sure the bullfrogs are aware of this discussion & have already "anonymously" been contributing. That's my opinion. Here is one blurb from Puants website comment section:

"Green Bay Bullfrogs said...
As a member of this Blog site, how very cool to come across this blog. Even more..how unreal to come across a blog regarding a new possible home for the Bullfrogs..!! We have certainly been looking at options since we are outgrowing our current home Joannes Stadium at a rapid pace and we are looking at what the best options are for us moving forward...stay put and continue to renovate Joannes or look at possible other locations that could really contribute to the community. The Brownfield site is on the short list no doubt..!!"

Puant, I hope you don't mind. Go to his website to see more of the comments....https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=6835766050678899160&postID=4454871720617402333

I e-mailed the Bullfrogs 2-3 days ago to see if they were aware of our little discussion and whether they would be interested in joining the discussion. I haven't heard back yet.

It's a lot of fun to think about plans and create some renders of the stadium, and I think the site would be great. But we probably should find out about the proposed plan for the brownfield, and whether the Bullfrogs are at all interested in the idea, before spending much more time on the idea.

I had actually emailed Jeff Mirkes about this a couple of weeks back as well and sent the attachment to this site. My intentions were good as I wanted to make the right people aware if they weren't already, but I feel like like I may have been over-stepping my bounds :hammer:

I hope that potenital Brownfield development is nice and something substantial (I like those renders of the site that were posted earlier).

Finally got to check out Shopko tonight.
Awesome. So badly needed and they nailed it.
I was impressed with the assortment and the prices on most things were fair. I already like it better than Walgreens.

Living a block down from ShopEx,it is gonna save me probably 15 trips a year to WM for shampoo and soda.

An entrance on that corner would have been nice but it's whats inside that counts and they have done a very,very nice job.

For all the heartbreaks of failed hopes it's something like this that makes you hold on. It's not enough to finish a project..it needs to be done right and Shopko was done right. Perfect location,great selection of essentials,beautiful building and fills a gaping hole in the DT.

Also,in an effort to support DT I went to the light ceremony on Broadway tonight. Pretty decent turnout and I even ate supper on BW and it was outstanding.

When the Mayor spoke I was so tempted to shout "baseball stadium at the brownfield!!!!!" but I didn't wanna look more dorky than I typically do.

Didn't buy anything in the stores but I did get some Christmas ideas and will be stopping back at a few spots.

Had the chance to stop in to some places I would not normally visit and I had a good experience in all of them. Now,I can't see being a regular visitor but if I need a gift or am in the market for a particular item I now have some shops in mind to check out.

Puant, I hope you don't mind. Go to his website to see more of the comments....https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=6835766050678899160&postID=4454871720617402333

I don't mind at all! Thanks for doing that.

I e-mailed the Bullfrogs 2-3 days ago to see if they were aware of our little discussion and whether they would be interested in joining the discussion. I haven't heard back yet.

It's a lot of fun to think about plans and create some renders of the stadium, and I think the site would be great. But we probably should find out about the proposed plan for the brownfield, and whether the Bullfrogs are at all interested in the idea, before spending much more time on the idea.

Part of me wants to put some more time into bettering the 3D model, putting in a better stadium with a good design, clubhouse, play area for the kids, etc, just to make sure that the concept can be more thoroughly visualized. However, another voice tells me it's just a waste of time and I'm stepping on toes....Well read on below...

My intentions were good as I wanted to make the right people aware if they weren't already, but I feel like like I may have been over-stepping my bounds :hammer:

Yeah I got that same vibe, although mixed (at first, a good vibe but now I'm not sure what's going on). I have thought of a few reasons as to why this might be. I can't see how posting a blog on this and rendering some stuff up could HURT anything, could it?

Finally got to check out Shopko tonight.
Awesome. So badly needed and they nailed it.

For all the heartbreaks of failed hopes it's something like this that makes you hold on. It's not enough to finish a project..it needs to be done right and Shopko was done right. Perfect location,great selection of essentials,beautiful building and fills a gaping hole in the DT.

When the Mayor spoke I was so tempted to shout "baseball stadium at the brownfield!!!!!" but I didn't wanna look more dorky than I typically do.



It is great to see this. That corner has been drastically improved with this building on the outside, at least, I haven't been inside myself but it's great to hear that they nailed it. It's also cool that it's a local company filling it, yet one with some name recognition and competititve pricing.

I laughed at your comment about your "dorky" thoughts. I think you should've done it!! I was downtown this evening, I would have joined in!!

Shopko express is Shopko w/o the clothes and furniture. Shopex even has mp3 players and cellphones and dvds and packer hats.....a little sample of anything you'd find in a full size shopko and that really was the way to go.

if you like shopko you will like shopko ex. I was so worried it would be kwiktrip w/ a drug store but it really is a mini-me shopko.

The wife and I were kinda hungry so we grabbed a good frozen pizza for 2.99. SO NICE to not have to get in the car and run to mcdonalds for a late snack.

It's not a destination store. If you live in ASH. there is no reason to come DT for SHopkoex but for the DT residents it will quickly become a vital part of the neighborhood.

I had actually emailed Jeff Mirkes about this a couple of weeks back as well and sent the attachment to this site. My intentions were good as I wanted to make the right people aware if they weren't already, but I feel like like I may have been over-stepping my bounds

Part of me wants to put some more time into bettering the 3D model, putting in a better stadium with a good design, clubhouse, play area for the kids, etc, just to make sure that the concept can be more thoroughly visualized. However, another voice tells me it's just a waste of time and I'm stepping on toes....Well read on below...

Yeah I got that same vibe, although mixed (at first, a good vibe but now I'm not sure what's going on). I have thought of a few reasons as to why this might be. I can't see how posting a blog on this and rendering some stuff up could HURT anything, could it?

If I were you guys, I wouldn't worry about stepping on toes or anything like that. I mean, seriously, if you think something's a good idea and you want to take the time to promote it, you should. There are no "bounds" you cross outside of when promoting what you think is a good idea (short of being rude to people, which isn't what's happening here), and if someone is upset by your enthusiasm (and I can't imagine who would be based upon what I've seen in this baseball stadium discussion), that would say more about them than you. Maybe not everyone will agree with you, any idea will have pros and cons, but never be deterred when it comes to being enthusiastic about your city and promoting what you feel are good ideas. We need more people like you guys, not less.

To Puant specifically, what you do with your time is up to you, but drawings matter. It's the whole a picture is worth a thousand words thing, and if you have the time, interest, and ability to make quality renderings, it really helps people envision what you're promoting.

Finally, Chicagoenvy, I'm glad to hear of your positive experiences with the lighting ceremony and ShopKo Express. I've not been to the downtown location yet, but I have used the one on GV a few times and that's a nice store. Certainly a great addition downtown and yet another positive step.

Hear! Hear! We're talking about competing visions, and this idea will not happen if there isn't a push behind it. I think it's a great idea, and I'd like to see it made reality. But that won't happen if it remains in the confines of this forum, the idea needs to be pushed out into the real world. Someone needs to get the owner of the Bullfrogs in Mayor Schmitt's office with Puant's renderings and hopefully magic will happen. Now that there are other interests aligning around the brownfield, the sooner the better.

Let's just say I was asked NOT to share the idea with the city because there has been a tremendous amount of work done behind the scenes and there is supposed to be some sort of announcement fairly soon. I don't know what this means....maybe someone already hired someone to generate plans of some kind? or maybe there are other interests out there? I don't know but I'm trying to respect that request. I was not asked to take the image off of my blog so I'll just keep it there.

Can anyone help me find any plans/layout for the Larsen Green site? The PRess-Gazette posted someting a while ago but I cannot find that graphic back, nor can I find it anywhere else online. Do any of you have something you can share, or point me to?

Well, I guess that's a little different. Weird. I wonder what that's about. You didn't say who asked you not to share the idea with the city, but remember, ultimately it's up to you. Is it a case of competing visions? If it has to do with what I've hinted about, then it's not a done deal yet and there's still some wiggle room. Or maybe things have progressed past the point that I've heard about.

As for LG, you can see the layout in horribly compressed digital graphics here: http://www.onbroadway.org/merge/archive/AugSept08_website.pdf on page 9. If you pick up a print version of this, you can see it more clearly. The Oct./Nov. issue is out now, but you can probably get a back copy at the on broadway office.

Let's just say I was asked NOT to share the idea with the city because there has been a tremendous amount of work done behind the scenes and there is supposed to be some sort of announcement fairly soon.

I say to whoever told you that, tough crap. Why on earth shouldn't you share the idea with the city, or whomever else you'd like? Of course, the ballpark is just an idea and we have no idea if it would work for the Bullfrogs, the City, or that site for sure. But at this point, we have no other official plan for the site. If they release an official plan, then A) we'll be able to judge the merits of that, and B) if the plan is good, even if it doesn't include a ballpark or anything like that, I'll be inclined to support it because at that point it would be an actual plan. But in the mean time, how the hell can anyone expect you to not want to talk about what you think would be good for the city in the absence of any other officially released plan. We have nothing to fear from ideas.

Look, as I've said all along, I like Joannes as the home of the Bullfrogs, and if they expand I'd like to see them do so on that site. I also maintain that the future success of the downtown does not rest of a ballpark or on any singular project. That said, there's a lot to like about the idea and it's clearly one that resonates with many of you guys. GREAT! Promote that idea as you see fit. It's YOUR city.

but remember, ultimately it's up to you. Is it a case of competing visions?

As for LG, you can see the layout in horribly compressed digital graphics here: http://www.onbroadway.org/merge/archive/AugSept08_website.pdf on page 9. If you pick up a print version of this, you can see it more clearly. The Oct./Nov. issue is out now, but you can probably get a back copy at the on broadway office.

Thanks for this link, it is all I have to go off of right now. People keep telling me that there is room on the Larsen Green site for a ballfield, but for the life of me, I cannot see how/where. I suppose part of this plan could be modified to squeeze a ballpark in, but even if so, it would be a poor site for this. THat said, I think a ballpark could fit onto the adjacent north end of Leicht Park. It would be a much tighter squeeze than the Brownfield site but it's doable, I suppose, and you'd still have the benefits of waterfront, skyline views, etc.

I say to whoever told you that, tough crap. Why on earth shouldn't you share the idea with the city, or whomever else you'd like? Of course, the ballpark is just an idea and we have no idea if it would work for the Bullfrogs, the City, or that site for sure. But at this point, we have no other official plan for the site. If they release an official plan, then A) we'll be able to judge the merits of that, and B) if the plan is good, even if it doesn't include a ballpark or anything like that, I'll be inclined to support it because at that point it would be an actual plan. But in the mean time, how the hell can anyone expect you to not want to talk about what you think would be good for the city in the absence of any other officially released plan. We have nothing to fear from ideas.

Look, as I've said all along, I like Joannes as the home of the Bullfrogs, and if they expand I'd like to see them do so on that site. I also maintain that the future success of the downtown does not rest of a ballpark or on any singular project. That said, there's a lot to like about the idea and it's clearly one that resonates with many of you guys. GREAT! Promote that idea as you see fit. It's YOUR city.

Yeah I've thought about this but at the same time, who am I? CUrrently the city controls the land and someone else owns the Bullfrogs, it is all in their hands. Even if nobody at the CIty has seen these, at least the Bullfrogs owner has. I feel as though I did my part to promote an idea for something that would be pretty cool for both the city and the Bullfrogs.

BY the way:
I got some more measurements of the Madison Mallards stadium and I've worked a stadium like it onto the Brownfield Site. This is even more exciting than my older renders, because the Mallards stadium fits on the Brownfield site so much better than that crappy downloaded stadium in my renders does.

If I had more energy I would re-do the renders with this instead, But I'm watching Brett and the Jets tear up the Titans right now.

Can anyone help me find any plans/layout for the Larsen Green site? The PRess-Gazette posted someting a while ago but I cannot find that graphic back, nor can I find it anywhere else online. Do any of you have something you can share, or point me to?

I have the Larsen PDF on my local hard drive. I just uploaded it to here. (http://www.4shared.com/file/72842861/5034b0cb/Larsen_Canning_Development.html)

Here's the response I received from Jeffrey Royle, the president and owner of the Green Bay Bullfrogs:

My organization has and is working behind the scenes regarding potential new stadium sites including brownfield site among others. I'm very much encouraged by yours and others excitement regarding this topic. We have intentions of sharing your ideas with the general public and city officials very soon.

I played around with the ideas of putting the stadium on other sites including Larsen Green.

As I think these scale images (http://picasaweb.google.com/gBayPacker/BaseballStadiumFitOnOtherProposedSitesDowntown#)will show, the only site in the downtown that would fit a baseball stadium onto is the Brownfield.


P.S.
check out the Madison Mallards future new digs...Scroll down this PDF (http://www.ci.madison.wi.us/Parks/documents/010208ConceptandBudgetReport.pdf) to the renders. (someone aptly-named Jeremiah over on my blog (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2008/11/lots-of-chatter-lately-about-local.html) pointed this out). At the beginning of this PDF, they mention that "the most significant change will be the re-orientation of the field so it is compliant with recommended baseball design practices". It's not making the stadium larger in capacity, it's mainly orientating it correctly. I think our Brownfield idea would have pretty good orientation as shown.

P.S.S. while you're over on my blog, be sure to vote on which option you think is best (poll is on upper-right)

The City of Green Bay put a live webcam on their website to follow the progress of construction...

http://gbcam.baycomwi.com/

Kind of interesting, I guess.

Looks like the CityDeck webcam, this time of year, might best be viewed on a cloudy day or in the afternoon when the sun shines more directly that way. Or when a ship passes by.

The City of Green Bay put a live webcam on their website to follow the progress of construction...

http://gbcam.baycomwi.com/

Kind of interesting, I guess.

When I go to the link I get a blank white screen. Either it isn't working or this is actually the webcam showing the progress of Astor Place.. :lol:

Looks like the CityDeck webcam, this time of year, might best be viewed on a cloudy day or in the afternoon when the sun shines more directly that way. Or when a ship passes by.

I agree. Even when the deck is built I think it will be tough to see.

...............that the City Deck Web Cam doesn't seem to be working.:nuts:

When I go to the link I get a blank white screen. Either it isn't working or this is actually the webcam showing the progress of Astor Place.

Yeah, the longer the time between the announcement of a downtown project and the actual start of construction, seems to me, greater the possibility the project won’t happen at all. Astor Place construction was always going to start in just a couple or a few more months, but kept getting pushed back. Now AP signage at the site has been taken down, and with the economy the way that it is....

I feel bad for the city and the developers. I’m sure they’ve worked very hard to make Astor Place happen and get the project under way. Where’s a Jake Rose or some local visionary with financial means, like John Bergstrom in the Fox Cities, when you need one? Astor Place is no doubt an ambitious project, but I’m hoping it’s just on temporary leave and will eventually re-emerge better than ever. That’d be great.

people.forbes.com/profile/john-f-bergstrom/1470

packerland.blogspot.com/2008/01/new-astor-place-tower-render.html

...............that the City Deck Web Cam doesn't seem to be working.:nuts:


Your right, at least it was a good view of the abandoned Younkers building the city lost $10,000,000.00 + on.

^^ I clicked on the link earlier today and it worked, it is live, but i clicked on the link a few secs ago and it doesnt work... yall got Java cause thats what i am seeing now?

jschmuck said: ......... yall got Java cause thats what i am seeing now?[/QUOTE]


That's all I'm seeing at this moment (3:51 PM 11-26 ) right now.....

I'll try again next week when I'm back to work!

Have agood T-day guys and gals.!!

Out of curiosity I just went back to the beginning of this thread around Thanksgiving 2006, the conversation was depressingly similar to today's. This Thanksgiving, I'm thankful for a lot of things, but I'd like to specifically thank all of you guys for helping to keep me sane throughout. It's nice to have a place to expend some of pro-Green Bay energies, to have a spot to think out loud and to dream. I'm optimistic that virtually everything we're thinking about will eventually become real. There's a lot in the works right now, and bad economy or no, we're going to turn this place around. I'm thankful that despite all of these setbacks and delays that we haven't given up thinking and dreaming! Hopefully I'll look back on this post this time next year and feel the same way. I've chosen this corner of the world to live in and to raise my family and I'm going to keep pushing the boulder up the hill; because I think it's worth it.

Well said, Nativist. Same sentiments from my wife and I... We chose to live here too because there are indeed many aspects of this town that we enjoy, enough to make us want to stay here and raise our family here.

Maybe we don't talk about the good things often enough on this board, but I think that has more to do with our attitude that we silently enjoy the good, while focusing our time and energy on the stuff that needs fixin'. Speaking of fixin's, my thanksgiving dinner is nearly ready. Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

I’m new to this board. But, from what I’ve read, I find the conversation here thoughtful, imaginative, stimulating and farsighted. Great things do indeed happen, they often just take their time. Even with its setbacks, Green Bay’s a much more interesting, diverse and livable place than it was decades ago, thanks to thinkers and doers like you. Forward!

isn't Green Bay supposed to get an aloft hotel like in Milwaukee and Madison?

First off, welcome to the board Tower Park. Always great to have another active particpant.

As for the aloft Hotel in Green Bay it is currently U/C on the west side of the Fox River just off Hwy 172 and Ashland Ave. The entire structure is up and standing and is well on its way to its target opening date of March 26, 2009. More info can be found at the link below.
http://www.starwoodhotels.com/alofthotels/property/overview/index.html?propertyID=3230

From the Press-Gazette:
The downtown mall's giant antique clock is headed home to Winona, Miss.

The city of Green Bay, which owns the old Washington Commons Mall, has struck a deal to sell the clock to the Mississippi city for $35,000. The 24-foot clock belonged to Winona before being installed on the west end of the closed mall in Green Bay.

The clock had been appraised at between $40,000 and $50,000, city Planning Director Rob Strong told the Redevelopment Authority. Winona originally offered $45,000, but the transaction was put on hold when local interest was expressed in the clock, but when no deal surfaced, Winona offered a reduced amount, which the city accepted.

The clock, built in 1885 in Boston, had been at Winona's city hall.

T. Wall Properties of Middleton has a development agreement with the city on the old mall. It plans to demolish the mall to make way for ground-floor stores with offices above.

Saw this on jsonline about a Packer players view of our city:

Carolina, New England, Philadelphia and the Packers showed the most interest leading up to the draft. When the Packers took Finley, it might have saved him from repeating old ways.

"I got a phone call from Mike Montgomery, because he's from the area back home," said Finley. "He said make sure you bring your PlayStation, every little game you can, because there's nothing to do. I got here and my wife was like, 'Where's the rest of the town?' So it was real dull. We came in the off-season and it was like dead. I was like, it's going to be a test.

:ohno:

But he also says this:

"I love it, as a matter of fact. Good town to raise a family. Real quiet. If I would have landed somewhere else  . . .  Like now, I am football, football, football. Trying to get better. Big city, like Atlanta? What can you do, you know what I'm saying? I was the boy that loved to go out and party. I'm blessed to be here. I'm blessed all over, to tell you the truth."



So..Green Bay...dull and boring but hey,you won't get into trouble!

Green Bay is a great city to live in.

for what it's worth, my little Packerland Annals blog poll asking "What's the most exciting idea for the Bullfrogs baseball stadium future?" resulted in 74% voting for the 'brownfield site'. Granted, there were only 31 votes and my blog is biased, but anyway...:

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/BaseballStadiumPollResults.jpg

We shall see what the forthcoming announcement holds.

Will we get this (only with a better stadium & site design, of course). (the downtown skyline photo backdrop is copyright Ryan Photography of Green Bay...Used by permission)

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/brownfieldStadium_Skyline3_PHOTOSHO.jpg

Or continue to have this?

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/brownfieldexistingconditions.jpg

Name ideas for the proposed stadium:

Shopko Park
Tilleman Field
APAC Stadium
Schmitt Stadium
Jadin Field
Fort Howard Field
Fox River Park
Bay Lake Bank Stadium
Pioneer (Credit Union) Ballpark
Cellcom Center

Out of all of those name ideas, I think that the Shopko Park name would be a perfect fit considering that Shopko is a recognizable chain of discount department stores from our area. Now to get them to sponsor the team...

Tell me what you think of these naming ideas.

Puant--

After looking at your renderings, one question. The railroad tracks near the brownfield site are pretty active. Do you see that as a hindrance? I could just picture a couple thousand people trying to get to the game & having to wait 20 minutes for a train.

Name ideas for the proposed stadium:

Shopko Park
Tilleman Field
APAC Stadium
Schmitt Stadium
Jadin Field
Fort Howard Field
Fox River Park
Bay Lake Bank Stadium
Pioneer (Credit Union) Ballpark
Cellcom Center

Out of all of those name ideas, I think that the Shopko Park name would be a perfect fit considering that Shopko is a recognizable chain of discount department stores from our area. Now to get them to sponsor the team...

Tell me what you think of these naming ideas.

They could name any new baseball stadium after whoever provides financing, if outside money or sponsorship is sought. Just hope it would be an attractive sounding name that evokes some appealing sense of place. If no donor name were required, then my vote among your choices for a S. Broadway stadium would be Fox River Park. Or perhaps Broadway Field or Broadway Stadium. We’ll see what’s going to happen on this site.

Puant--

After looking at your renderings, one question. The railroad tracks near the brownfield site are pretty active. Do you see that as a hindrance? I could just picture a couple thousand people trying to get to the game & having to wait 20 minutes for a train.

I've thought about the RR tracks. They are quite heavily used, and yes could cause delays in getting to the game...(20 minutes though? I wouldn't think more than 10 minutes delay). I wondered whether a pedesrian overpass/walkway would be required but I don't think so, maybe someday if it's a real problem--there are spots for more parking on the other side of the tracks...not that I want more parking but along with other development, these sites could hold additional parking. (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=rdjsfn7ny4vn&style=b&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15772625&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1)

Trains going by might be kind of fun to watch from the stands. The trains would add to the visual interest and the uniqueness of the thing--you can make what you want of it, drink specials when trains go by or something. That's looking at the glass half full.

This train line would also be the one that the passenger rail comes in on, if they get that going again. I think a nice looking stadium, especially if active with game activity, would be a nice gateway "entry" to downtown. Same goes for people driving over Mason St, it's a good perceptual gateway into downtown (the plan I'm currently reviewiong on my blog talks about this area as a 'gateway'). Cripes I'm starting to think and speak too much like a planner. :bash:

Along the tracks nearthe stadium--also thought about whether a wall, gate, or some sort of other buffer would be required between the tracks and the parking lot just for safety. Possibly.

Also of note: I think there could be only 1 road crossing, probably at the existing one (Arendt St). The very end of the boat slip might need a little bit of fill to make enough width between the tracks and the slip, as I show in my render above.

I'm not even going to think about names, all I want to have happen right now is for the Bullfrogs and the city to seriously consider this site, I hope they don't give up on it too quickly for some minor reason, I hope they explore the pros and cons in completely without just dismissing it for some silly reason. I think the problems of the site can be overcome if someone is creative enough.

I don't think it was a coincidence that all of a sudden ifyoubuildit brought this topic to the forefront. I think its a planned effort to get some momentum going and start some discussion. This forum is a great place to put some feelers out there without any risk. Puant did a great job running with it! I don't know what your field of work is, but you have some great skills with research and design concepts. Ifyoubuildit's comments along with the city telling people to lay off because a plan is in the works, is a pretty strong sign something is happening. The mayor and bullfrogs have to play it just perfect. At a time of a recession, when the mayor is trying to have a no increase budget & trying to pay off his 10 million dollar Younkers mess, it will not be easy. It will have to be a large community effort to raise the money & pledge to support the team for many years.

That area on Broadway is in need of something good. Drive down a few blocks & you're in a run down area with crime problems. Not that's it's dangerous to walk down the street during the day, but it's one of the problem areas on the West side. Of course, it's probably a upgraded location from the current problem area. Puant, keep up the good work.

I always assumed that ifyoubuildit is just GBMphillips' alias! If I'm wrong, sorry ifyoubuildit for not giving you more credit for the idea earlier.

You know, a while ago I mentioned the good 'ol fashioned fundraisers that helped build community facilities like the downtown YMCA. I had said then that facilities like this aren't built anymore...

...but i was wrong, the Meyer Theater renovation just 5 or so years ago was significantly paid for with fundraising and local donations (most notably Betty Meyer (http://www.meyertheatre.org/About/Betty.shtml) of course who donated $1.5 million).

I guess what I'm saying is, maybe there is hope for this type of community fundraising effort for the ball park. Or some other financing.

Sure would be nice to have one of those companies or some other step up to the plate and help the Bullfrogs and the city of GB get a baseball stadium built on the Brownfield site..!!

There is certainly other land in that area to accomodate additional parking.

Maybe they should build fences around the railroad tracks and power lines for safety purposes, as well as a bridge to cross over the railroad tracks, and a sound wall between the Tilleman Bridge and the ballpark to keep unnecessary noise out (like the roaring of traffic or car horns).

I hope they consider building on this site, as well as finding a sponsor (like Shopko, Cellcom, or Pioneer Credit Union, for example), and securing the funds necessary to build the stadium.

Maybe they should build fences around the railroad tracks and power lines for safety purposes, as well as a bridge to cross over the railroad tracks, and a sound wall between the Tilleman Bridge and the ballpark to keep unnecessary noise out (like the roaring of traffic or car horns).

I hope they consider building on this site, as well as finding a sponsor (like Shopko, Cellcom, or Pioneer Credit Union, for example), and securing the funds necessary to build the stadium.

I understand the safety aspect but boy that right of way is pretty wide and I can only imagine how unsightly a fence and or bridge would be.

Has anyone mentioned a water taxi? Brownfield is a perfect stop. I rode one in chicago last summer and thought it was cool- I know that this is green bay so maybe we set our sights lower and just gather a few of those famous "floating carp" and use those some how?
:lol:

Has anyone mentioned a water taxi? Brownfield is a perfect stop. I rode one in chicago last summer and thought it was cool- I know that this is green bay so maybe we set our sights lower and just gather a few of those famous "floating carp" and use those some how?
:lol:

Carp Taxi Service. Low Carbon Footprint Transportation (Downstream Only)

PETA may approve, if the fish are dead already.

Better yet, there's a couple guys that troll the river for muskie on a regular basis. Maybe they could put a mounted trophy muskie on the bow of their boat and pick up passengers. MUSKIE EXPRESS! :lol::lol:

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=9446994

This news i can translate to you...

Hopefully in 2 years this facility would be under construction after the studies. The real name for a facility like this is an intermodal facility. But as a truck driver its something i can relate to, and would benefit GB. You find these on the east and west coasts, and have the large cranes that lift and drop containers to/from ships, trains, and trucks. potential good news

some of the containers that get transferred from train to truck at the chicago facilities, get put on that truck to go up to green bay or appleton areas (and milwaukee of course)...i have taken i think just one schneider intermodal container to KC in neenah. yea 1 isnt much but im not dedicated to KC, im dedicated to GP...but my point is there are always containers being transferred in chicago that are trucked to NE wisconsin. And the fact that this potential facility would cater to minneapolis also helps.

It looks as if Green Bay will have a little bit in common with other port cities, such as Portland, Maine or Buffalo, New York. Boats will be coming in and out, money will be coming in from tourism, industry and sports.

here is the full report from UWGB. as you can see this was something that many business in the area of NEW have requested and that is the reason why the study is taken place. thank God someone is listening to the local business owners

Grant could be step in expanding Port shipping, regional economy

GREEN BAY — Researchers at the University of Wisconsin-Green Bay now have a green light to investigate whether renewed demand for an old service – container shipping from Great Lakes ports – has the potential to usher in a fresh era of freight transportation and job growth for the Green Bay area.

The University announced Tuesday (Dec. 2) that in collaboration with the Port of Green Bay it has received a $55,000 research grant from the Great Lakes Maritime Research Institute for the “The Great Lakes Marine Container Service Feasibility Study.”

Faculty members and student research assistants will use surveys, background analysis and confidential interviews with potential shippers to:

• Identify products or commodities that may be suited to containerized transport via Great Lakes shipping, including those which have previously moved via highway and rail combination to increasingly congested Atlantic ports;

•Analyze the viability of connecting Great Lakes container operations via the St. Lawrence Seaway to high-capacity, ocean-going vessels at Montreal and Halifax, Nova Scotia;

• Identify shipper requirements and interest in shifting from land-based to marine service linking markets on the Great Lakes; and, ultimately

• Determine whether there would be sufficient volume to support a common “intermodal” terminal to be created at the Port of Green Bay and, if so, conduct an analysis of potential terminal size, location, requirements and features.

Local interest in a possible intermodal terminal has risen along with global trade, fuel-cost uncertainties, and appreciation of the importance of sustainable business practices.

Supporters say a cost-effective new shipping option could be a magnet to retain, expand and attract industry. Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt, County Executive Tom Hinz and Green Bay Area Chamber of Commerce President Paul Jadin joined University and Port officials at Tuesday’s kickoff meeting on campus.

“With regional collaboration such a critical factor in economic growth, I am proud the University is a central player in this project,” says UW-Green Bay Interim Chancellor David Ward, a specialist in economic development.

Container shipping – using standardized cargo boxes that can be transferred from ship to truck or train – is common internationally but has been rare on the Great Lakes since World War II, when rail and, later, highway transport grew in favor.

Like all Great Lakes ports, Green Bay now handles mostly bulk commodities. At the 13 private shipping terminals along the lower Fox River, freighters carrying coal, limestone, cement and salt (forest products and tallow are among the other products) account for most of the 200 visiting ships and about 2.3 million metric tons of cargo per year.

Dean Haen, director for the Port of Green Bay, says the Port contributes about $76 million annually to the regional economy, serving businesses from Sheboygan to Wausau to the Upper Peninsula. He observes that a number of industries – paper, agriculture and manufacturing among them – have competitive advantages that would only be enhanced by improved global access.

“Many people don’t realize what a resource we have with the Port,” Haen says, “and that the growth potential is so strong.”

The UW-Green Bay study will look at Green Bay as a single node in the network, but the research could also be a resource for shippers, freight planners, ports and public entities elsewhere. Oswego, N.Y., located on Lake Ontario, is already proceeding with plans for a container port. Another new port is being built in Nova Scotia at the entrance to the Seaway, along the Gulf of St. Lawrence.

The $55,000 grant is renewable, and will fund year one of a two-year project. The granting agency, the Great Lakes Maritime Research Institute, is based in Duluth as a consortium involving the University of Minnesota Duluth and UW-Superior. The Institute promotes research on economically and environmentally sustainable maritime commerce on the Great Lakes.

Principal researchers for UW-Green Bay are Prof. Ray Hutchison, chair of the Urban and Regional Studies academic unit, and Don McCartney, senior lecturer in marketing in Business Administration. Also assisting will be Libby Ogard, a former railroad and logistics-industry professional who since 2001 has operated her own freight transportation consulting firm, Prime Focus LLC, headquartered in De Pere.

It is expected about four UW-Green Bay students will participate in the research, helping to compile data and develop a survey instrument.

The grant application was submitted after the Port of Green Bay found significant interest in the project at a May 2008 meeting involving about 40 manufacturers, transportation-related industries and local officials.

More thoughts about a potential intermodal facility;

This potential is really incredible because the possibilities are massive. The potential?

-A green bay intermodal facility could/should be created to be used as a reliever from the congested facilities in chicago (trust me, i know lol!) Not only that but the chicago area is planning on another gigantic facility - tho im not sure if it would replace one or if its actual expansion...

-A green bay intermodal facility could/should/would take container ships INTERNATIONALLY.

-Schneider National has a large stake in shipping some product in containers, and thus that is one way it would create more jobs in this area - more drivers based out of green bay, and thus more office people to help dispatch those drivers with offices in green bay.

-The cranes that would load and unload the vehicles/vessels could quite possibly be made by Manitowoc Crane Company, more jobs in that area.

green bays location is almost perfect; the area is not a giant metropolis with congestion that would slow highway shipping down, there are no tolls to add to shipping costs, hwy 29 is a straight shot I-94 to minneapolis and beyond.

wow, this is potentially massively gigantically collosososoosllosaolly BIG!
sweeet...:cheers:

^^Cool. People are finally seeing the light on this, glad everyone from local businesses to government to UWGB is on it. I realize there are downsides of great lakes shipping but the upsides are increasing.

You know that giant PCB treatment plant they're building on the Fox River? You know, the one that's the biggest PCB cleanup facility in the world? It recently had a whole lot of cranes around it but for some reason we didn't really discuss it much here. Anyway, does anyone know how long the cleanup project will take?

Because as part of this, they're redeveloping a large dock wall along this part of the river (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=44.49698~-88.027219&style=h&lvl=17&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15774019&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1), dredging it, etc, getting ready to receive the loads of glowing malignant muck. I was thinking that once the PCB cleanup is done, this would make a good intermodal terminal of some kind, with the new dock and large building and all.

THere are other opportunities farther down river too, like just south of the I-43 bridge. (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=44.526833~-88.006845&style=h&lvl=17&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15771367&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1)

I would think Schneider would be on top of this. Aren't they like the largest trucking company in the world or something like that? Plus their logistics division. Seems like this would be up their alley.

I would hope schneider would have some sort of participation or interest in this, i could ask my boss, but stuff like this usually doesnt reach lower level until a certain point.

I got point about the type of product moved in containers; almost anything is shipped via container, but what i want to emphasize is scrap paper/shredded paper. Why? well, Georgia pacific has a large operation here (4 different sites, as well as seperate warehouses). GP has 2 mills, one east of the fox (by the leo frigo bridge), the other LARGER mill is on the west side of the fox...this LARGER mill is believe it or not, the largest in the world to intake scrap paper/shredded paper and recycle that, and turn it into finished product (all stuff i know for fact). this shredded paper/scrap paper is shipped to the mill via truck, and sometimes by truck hauling container. Just one of the many products that would be moved thru the potential facility...products would be relayed thru the facility to go another 500 or 1000 miles, and products would be relayed thru the facility and enter the Green bay economy.

P.s, puant, you could use your photo enhancing skills to make a container port somewhere lol, just suggesting...BTW, i really like the stadium and its potential as well, something that should be moved forward.

in terms of locations, im not sure such a facility would be placed downriver...i think this would be more along the bay rather than the river. A location closest to the freeway would be the goal for all the truck traffic. If you do photoshop this puant dont forget to put the name Manitowoc on the cranes...:)

Jschmuck, thanks for the info, all very interesting.

I'll see what I can do with the port renderings...Tonight though, I'm thinking about what could go on the Astor Place site...

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/06DiGYd1dfEDswsJ8y9D2w

I'm too obsessed with this stuff. I obviously need treatment....