I love the talk about the intermodal study by my university and I hate to interrupt the tone because I think it is important, but something I read in the mjs sickened me.

For every dollar the federal government spends on need-based financial aid for students, Wisconsin spends 63 cents. By contrast, Illinois spends 82 cents and Minnesota spends 84 cents.

This is something that has to be changed. I understand the conservative tone of a lot of members of this board, but hopefully you can see what affordable education can do for your city/suburb/country town. There is a reason why my too many of my friends have moved to the endless sprawl of the twin cities...

clicky for full story (http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/35450659.html)

they mentioned that PCB site in the paper as well.they will use the site for 6-7 years. And then? i do not particular like this sire. it takes up more valuable riverfront for office and condo complexes. i think they would be better off to put it north of I43 over by peter's concrete. it already has rail and the interstate is right there. just my two cents.

I'm not sure if this is the proper venue for this discussion but I have a couple comment's to make on Sr22ger's post. First of all, I believe the University of Wisconsin System is one of the largest public university systems in the country. Somehow, someway students are filling up this vast system even without the state keeping pace with Illinois in the financial aid department. Also, the report states that Wisconsin ranks right in the middle (26th) on the affordability scale. My point is that I don't believe that a lack of financial aid is what's pushing young people to live in Minneapolis or Chicago--especially when you consider the massive number of students that are utilizing our system. I think a bigger issue is the brain drain of students who get their degrees in Wisconsin and then flee after graduation.

Earlier on this forum (or possibly on a previous GB forum) there was talk about the plan that was in effect I believe in Ireland, where a student could get a discount on his tuition if he agreed to stay and work in Ireland for a number of years after graduation. I believe a proposal of that kind was considered in Wisconsin. It's something that I believe could be a tremendous help and, in the long run, possibly be a net revenue gain for the state.

On to other topics, Puant, great job on the brownfield stadium. The picture from behind the stadium with the view of downtown in the distance was pretty sweet. I've had the pleasure of playing at Joannes many times in my younger days. It was always a thrill to play at the best baseball field in the city and I'm sure Joannes will still get plenty of use if a new professional field is built elsewhere for the Bullfrogs. I'm still not convinced that a stadium at that location would directly help downtown but nevertheless it would be a great locale for the park and would hopefully help gentrify the surrounding area.

As for the intermodal, that's pretty interesting. I've seen the ports at Long Beach and San Pedro in Los Angeles and it's a pretty spectacular sight. I'm in agreement with JSchmuck that something of that scale would have to be put either on the bay or very close to the mouth of the river. Depending on how much use the intermodal would get, traffic in the area could get noticeably worse but overall it seems like it could be an interesting move for the city to take.

One more thing, Puant, the picture of the "updated" Astor and Day's site is pretty cool. But it's amazing how stark Main Street is from that site almost to Monroe. It couldn't look less inviting to a pedestrian. I don't have anything constructive to offer. But that just struck me when I looked at that and the other pictures of that site.

One more thing, Puant, the picture of the "updated" Astor and Day's site is pretty cool. But it's amazing how stark Main Street is from that site almost to Monroe. It couldn't look less inviting to a pedestrian. I don't have anything constructive to offer. But that just struck me when I looked at that and the other pictures of that site.

This is all the more reason for tearing down the mall site and restoring the street grid. If Adams is extended back through to Main and you can get some shops or other street level activity, that stretch along Main wont be that bad.

thanks for the full report GBRoots...It looks like an intermodal facility in GB would be a more regional service...I jumped to the conclusion there would be international ships (not on a large scale) entering and leaving the port. Nonetheless a small intermodal facility here would be a very good asset for this area.

There is a lot of chatter about that 'intermodal' proposal for Green Bay in the railroad forvms that I follow - there is a lot of skepticism being expressed in them as to how much interest CN will have in it, seeing as they dropped Wisconsin Central's extremely active (as in sometimes running two LONG trains of trailers and containers each way every day) Green Bay-Chicago intermodal service very shortly after they took over Wisconsin Central back in 2001.

We shall see.

Mike

To this amateur, these office space numbers sound encouraging. Hopefully it could serve as one more feather in the cap of downtown leaders looking to lure new tenants.

Downtown home to hundreds of workers
Further growth expected in heart of Green Bay
By Richard Ryman • rryman@greenbaypressgazette.com • December 6, 2008

More than 1,000 Humana Inc. employees work in downtown Green Bay, and that number will probably grow.

That's in part because it's downtown, said Jerry Ganoni, head of Humana operations in Brown County.

"Our associates come from a variety of areas, including very, very north. It's centrally located," he said.

Humana is one of dozens of employers that fill 94 percent of office space in downtown Green Bay, which, despite losing most of its retail businesses, continues to be home to a wide range of companies.

A survey of downtown office occupancy by Downtown Green Bay Inc. found that 1.4 million square feet of downtown offices is occupied, with 89,434 square feet available.

"This is information that will be very interesting for developers," said Jeff Mirkes, executive director of Downtown Green Bay Inc. "It is really helping downtown's reputation as the place for quality office space."

The downtown area east of the Fox River has seen construction of more than 200,000 square feet of new Class A offices — the highest quality available — in the past decade, most of it fully occupied.

"There are things that are slowly being added here. We tend to overlook them," said Mike Maedke of Commercial Horizons, a downtown landlord and occupant. "Being in the hub of everything is attractive."

I say Amen to that. I want to have the East Bank as business central. The more people working down there, the more need for businesses to support them. I've always thought that the focus on residential, while also necessary, was a little misplaced. Business should come first, I think, and the rest will follow.

Speaking of the East side of downtown, Vicenzi's is no longer an obstacle to development (an argument I made a couple of months back): Vicenzi's at Badger Auction (http://www.badgerauction.com/vicenzis.htm). Generally I shed a tear over the failure of a small business (I'm very upset that Zeppelin's is up for auction, for example), but not this small business.

Here’s the main downtown office-space story in today’s Press-Gazette. Link will work for about a week before being archived and you have to pay to view: www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20081206/GPG03/812060692/1247

Some interesting information from the two stories and a chart on the topic. More than 11,000 people work downtown, including the Broadway District and part of the Olde Main Street District. 94% of all office space on the downtown east side is occupied. The largest office buildings, in order, are Regency Center, Baylake City Center (a surprise here to me), US Bank and Nicolet Center. The renovated Bellin Building is now 90% occupied. The largest downtown employers, in order, are WPSC, Humana and APAC – plus government (city, county, state, federal).

Despite what Dennis Feld says in one of the articles, I’m thinking this research actually shows there is a demand for downtown office space, especially quality space. I would think this should encourage developers in redeveloping the Washington Commons property into principally new, multi-story office buildings, with ground-level retail.

Despite what Dennis Feld says in one of the articles, I’m thinking this research actually shows there is a demand for downtown office space, especially quality space.

You hit it right on the head, those numbers don't lie. If Feld is having trouble marketing his space, these numbers would state that there is more a problem with his marketing/pricing/attitude than with the number of businesses willing to lease space downtown.

Speaking of the East side of downtown, Vicenzi's is no longer an obstacle to development (an argument I made a couple of months back): Vicenzi's at Badger Auction (http://www.badgerauction.com/vicenzis.htm). Generally I shed a tear over the failure of a small business (I'm very upset that Zeppelin's is up for auction, for example), but not this small business.


Are you sure Vicenzi's is going to be auctioned? Aren't they still open, or did they just close? I agree...no tears being shed here either!

Here’s the main downtown office-space story in today’s Press-Gazette. Link will work for about a week before being archived and you have to pay to view: www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20081206/GPG03/812060692/1247



Link are great for certain things. If you have ever looked at the archives for this site I found it very interesting/informational. Nothing worse then when someone talks about a great article & click on the link .... & it's gone! It's almost a history book of what has happened in our city. If possible... it is real nice when people copy & paste the story to this site. Like you mentioned, links last a week or sometimes a little longer. This just my two cents...I'm sure everyone has an own opinion.

As you wish, Michael.

Retail may be mostly gone from downtown Green Bay, but the heart of the city still beats. More than 90 percent of office space downtown is occupied by thousands of workers.


A survey by Downtown Green Bay Inc. found that 90 percent of office space greater than 10,000 square feet is occupied and 94 percent of all downtown office space is being used. The area surveyed was the Downtown Green Bay Inc. district, roughly from the East River south to Mason Street and from Monroe Avenue east to the Fox River.

"Our employees absolutely love the downtown location," said Mike Phillips, director of operations at APAC Customer Services, which has more than 800 employees at 301 N. Adams St. in Baylake City Center.

Derek Lord, deputy economic development director for Green Bay, said more than 11,000 people work within a half-mile of city hall, which includes the Broadway District and parts of the Olde Main Street District as well.

"People refer to downtown as a ghost town and a lot of that is perception," Lord said. "When they see a vacant building, they assume nothing is going on downtown. What they don't see is the thousands of people in multistory office buildings."

There aren't many vacant buildings, though the ones that are tend to stick out, such as the Schauer & Schumacher building on East Walnut Street, which, strictly speaking, is not an office building.

Downtown's largest employers are Wisconsin Public Service Corp. with more than 1,100 employees, Humana Inc. with more than 1,000 and APAC with more than 800. Dozens of other smaller businesses, as well as government entities, provide the rest of the work force.

Ten of the 23 mixed-use, privately owned buildings surveyed are 100 percent occupied. Jeff Mirkes, executive director of Downtown Green Bay Inc., said the largest buildings are the Regency Center at 111,087 square feet (97 percent full) and Baylake City Center at 110,650 square feet (89 percent occupied).

Mirkes said offices along the Fox River are especially in demand. Nicolet Center, Johnson Bank and Riverwalk Plaza are 100 percent occupied. The older but refurbished Bellin Building is 90 percent occupied, with 16 businesses moving in since mid-2006.

"There are 28 businesses located in the Bellin Building. That even surprised us," Mirkes said.

Downtown is attractive to employers because of its central location, its proximity to public transportation, banks and government offices, and other amenities such as restaurants.

APAC was in a building on Riverside Drive in Allouez before moving downtown in 2006. Phillips said the Allouez site was a beautiful location, but lacked amenities and transportation connections. He said lunch choices are better downtown as is access to the bus system.

And employees get front-row seats to many downtown events, such as Fourth of July, Artstreet and Bayfest.

He said some employees live in the new Flats on the Fox apartments, across the street from APAC's Baylake City Center office, and more live within a five-mile radius.

Jerry Ganoni, president of Humana Inc. operations in Brown County, said one attraction was the availability of large buildings downtown. Humana has grown so much it now occupies all or parts of five buildings in De Pere and Green Bay, including the Regency Center on Main Street and the Feld Building on Madison Street.

"We try to find larger places so we don't have so many facilities," Ganoni said.

Humana has its local headquarters in De Pere, but Ganoni said that as one of the county's largest employers it's appropriate to have operations in Green Bay proper as well.

George Brown, Humana facilities director, said infrastructure is a factor in deciding where to locate.

"Transportation is very, very important," Brown said. "A lot of our associates here do take the bus."

Dennis Feld of Feld Properties, which owns three downtown buildings, said the importance of a tenant such as Humana cannot be overlooked.

"You take Humana out of downtown and the Regency office building and my building, that's a big hole," he said.

Feld said his experience is that demand for downtown offices hasn't been high, but the economy is affecting that more than any concerns about downtown itself.

"If our economy becomes a little more active, the spaces will get filled, whether it be downtown or Ashwaubenon or Allouez or I-43," he said.

Mike Maedke of Commercial Horizons, owner of the Regency Center and Nicolet Center, said Class A office space is hard to find. Also, he said, developers like to have tenants before adding new buildings, which keeps occupancy high.

"It wouldn't be a good thing to build a beautiful building downtown and have it sit empty for three years. That would work against us. It would cause all these questions," he said.

Developers and employers say they are optimistic about ongoing downtown development, including the new CityDeck boardwalk over the Fox River.

Additional new office space is planned, both as part of John Vetter's WaterMark and Astor Place developments and with any likely redevelopment of the closed Washington Commons mall.

"Downtown has the tools, has things in place to make it attractive," Feld said. "We have excellent parking. We are getting new restaurants. We've got a lot of things in place that it should be successful."

good news indeed. Seriously, there are 28 different businesses in the Bellin Building? I would have guessed maybe 8. The tour we got last winter by Steve during our little get-together was memorable, but I don't remember that many...my memory might have been affected either by the # of beers I had or else I inhaled some of that 50 year old dust from those old dentist chairs that I sat in.

Are you sure Vicenzi's is going to be auctioned? Aren't they still open, or did they just close? I agree...no tears being shed here either!

I agree. I didn't see anything there to indicate that the business was closing or being auctioned, just that some fixtures (probably from when it was the food court, such as a gelato case) were.

Regarding the office space, that certainly is a strength.

I agree. I didn't see anything there to indicate that the business was closing or being auctioned, just that some fixtures (probably from when it was the food court, such as a gelato case) were.

Regarding the office space, that certainly is a strength.

Yes, Vicenzi's is still opened. :bash: I heard they are just auctioning off some of the food equipment. I think they are required under the business plan to sell a certain amount of food, I'm not sure if this might affect that plan. It's kind of hard to sell food if you can't prepare it. I'm probably way off.

Oh & thanks Puant! :)

Nevermind. I guess Vicenzi's still is an obstacle to the development of downtown Green Bay. Do you remember back when they were still looking at the S&S building and they were selling themselves as some kind of classy, urbane jazz lounge?

Nevermind. I guess Vicenzi's still is an obstacle to the development of downtown Green Bay.

I'm not aware of anything about the place that qualifies it as an "obstacle to the development of downtown." It's not my favorite place, but it doesn't need to be.

Hopefully they add another location downtown !


http://www.sgambatisnewyorkpizza.com/

Here's why I single out Vicenzi's (as opposed to all of the other spots along Washington St.), it is obnoxious. For example, I once dropped off some stuff at the Nicolet Bank drive through on a Wednesday night (around 8), and I could hear the music from Vicenzi's loudly from several blocks away, through my car. They actually put the speakers in the doorways facing out. Not to mention the spotlights... If I were thinking about locating a restaurant in the area, I'd be very concerned that my customers would be annoyed by the noise and commotion. If I were considering buying a condo down there, I would insist on getting access to it during Vicenzi's operating hours to make sure that I couldn't hear it from inside. They're not a good neighbor and I'm surprised how tolerant the city has been of them (especially since they've been significantly less tolerant of other, similar businesses).

Hopefully they add another location downtown !

That would be an excellent fit for the under construction parking ramp retail, no?

I once dropped off some stuff at the Nicolet Bank drive through on a Wednesday night (around 8), and I could hear the music from Vicenzi's loudly from several blocks away, through my car.

I don't know how often that happens, but to the degree that it does, I'd agree that noise ordinances should be enforced. It would suck for sure to be, say, eating outside at Angelina's later one evening and having to listen to that. Even still, I'm not one who is rooting for their failure by any means.

To this amateur, these office space numbers sound encouraging. Hopefully it could serve as one more feather in the cap of downtown leaders looking to lure new tenants.

Anyone else think GB could qualify for some freeway fliers? (freeway fliers if you dont know - city buses/buses that go to/from downtown to a park and ride lot of of a freeway outside of the city whether it be 5 miles or 20 miles outside of town).

I am so glad to heat about Sgambati's Pizza's plans on opening two new stores. Prior to coming out to Stout I lived blocks away and used to bike there to get a slice. It didn't seem to say much about where they will be located. Another downtown location that could be on the drawing board for them, besides Watermark retail, would be where FetaZ Mediterranean Bistro. FetaZ is listed to be sold. I'm not sure if there is stipulations that the buyer must continue the business, not sure exactly how that works. But that would be another, probably more affordable, option. It also seems to be a perfect size for what Ray and Cathy Sgambati have going on.

And if you're thinking about hitting up any restaurant equipment auctions it doesn't end at Vicenzi's and Perry's Cherry's, Tumbleweed will be having an auction coming up next week due to their store closing.

FetaZ | http://www.bizbuysell.com/cgi-bin/addetail?p=0&s=WI&i=AF&w=q&county=3082&pfrom=&pto=&ss=1&tab=eb&q=386586

The description of FetaZ tickles me. "FetaZ Restaurant/Lounge located on busy downtown street in the middle of millions of dollars of new development.

Tumbleweed Auction | http://www.grafeauction.com/auctions/listing.cfm?AuctionID=2060&State=WI[/FONT]

The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinal had their dining critic at the Republic Steakhouse. She gave it three stars overall (very good) but noted some "kinks" had yet to be worked out. Here's (http://www.jsonline.com/features/dining/35620279.html)the article.

As for Vicenzi's: I do remember when they were looking at the S&S building. I remember being initially excited but then I had to scratch my head and wonder a bit when the news started reporting a little bit on their business plan. I wasn't so sure about what I heard in the news, but figured the news may have just blown it. Apparently not. On the other hand, perhaps the S&S site might be better than the current site in terms of noise? Maybe not. How much business does Vicenzi's get anyway? So far the strobe lights have not lured me in, neither has the chance of witnessing a good ol' fashioned tazering. I just have no idea if the place is popular or not.

Overall I'm a bit more upbeat about things lately. That recent survey about office space & article really got me jacked up. These numbers are very good, considering. I didn't even see any of the press-gazette nut job forumers posting any ridiculous crap at the end of that article, last I checked anyway.

P.S. I love FetaZ. Don't get there as much as I'd like to but they've been holding steady, it seemed, for what about 3-4 years now? I was hoping they'd make it through until the adjacent area didn't have that Shock & Awe look to it.

I missed it, what happened with Fetaz? I thought that place was doing good.

Okke Dokke. I'll copy and paste in the future anything of substance. Thanks.

I don't intend to start rumors, but when Sgambati's first opened I was talking to the owner. This must have been a couple years ago, but I asked if they ever looked at other locations in the area. He mentioned that they were looking downtown GB. Not sure if this is still the case, but a ray of hope to hold onto :-) If I recall correctly I thought he mentioned in the new River Center, but I may have my wires crossed. Either way, its a very good pizza and I'm sure they'd do well downtown.

I spoke to one of the family members of Sgambati's and he told me that they were looking at W. Mason near the Baskin Robins. Isn't that near the hood? Interesting location...

I spoke to one of the family members of Sgambati's and he told me that they were looking at W. Mason near the Baskin Robins. Isn't that near the hood? Interesting location...

Why is my initial reaction, "Nooooooooooo...........!!!!!!"? Not because of the "hood" but just because of all the other crap out there.

Well I guess if that's where other people want to go out to eat. I won't go there, but that's just me.

Why is my initial reaction, "Nooooooooooo...........!!!!!!"? Not because of the "hood" but just because of all the other crap out there.

Well I guess if that's where other people want to go out to eat. I won't go there, but that's just me.

that really seems like a lousy location. Back in the day, when Gallaghers was on Broadway, we went there quite a bit. There really is NO pizza place downtown. I posted on this over the summer, but a place like that would be great downtown. Broadway, or on the east side of the river, would be pretty centrally located for delivery too.

That would be a start to our rail service. I agree with some of the comments on the GBPG about people not wanting to go to Appleton drinking and having to drive home on 41. Although someone would still have to pick you up at the train station. I have been talking to several people about rail service from Green Bay and most of the people I talked to said they would take the train to Appleton or even Milwaukee/Chicago as well. It is a great idea.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20081210/GPG0101/812100614/1978?GID=OVQBGF1ONwUXg6PEsEp7VvWS3nVJ4gsyAtJPE0tDNvY%3D

Mayor Schmitt is proposing 16 projects worth $36 million as part of a huge public works stimulus package the new Congress is expected to consider early next year. The mayor says most of the money - $20 million - would go toward developing an Amtrak connection between Green Bay and Appleton. (I wouldn’t be surprised if other cities along the Green Bay-Milwaukee route are also asking for Amtrak money.)

Also included in the mayor’s request is funding for improving S. Ashland Avenue at the street’s entrance way into the city, rebuilding N. Webster Ave., phase two of the RiverWalk parkway project, housing removal/rehab, a pilot energy efficiency project, police services, and rehab work at Port Plaza Towers and Mason Manor.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20081210/GPG0101/812100614/1978

Green Bay mayor shopping for federal funding for public projects
Schmitt hopes to get help for public projects
BY ELLYN FERGUSON • PRESS-GAZETTE WASHINGTON BUREAU EFERGUSON@GREENBAYPRESSGAZETTE.COM • DECEMBER 10, 2008

WASHINGTON — Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt and other mayors are trying to get a share of the road, bridge and community development money Congress is expected to include in a massive economic stimulus package in 2009.

The U.S. Conference of Mayors is shopping around a report on Capitol Hill that includes 11,391 projects from 427 cities. Work on the projects, which would cost about $73 billion.

Green Bay has 16 projects with a value of $35.8 million in the report and estimates more than 960 largely private sector jobs would be created.

A $20 million request for an Amtrak connection between Green Bay and Appleton to move commuters and attract businesses accounts for more than half the costs.

"These are necessary projects. They need to be done," Schmitt said.

The projects are not glamorous or big vote getters, but he said they could provide "good paying jobs and are necessary to sustain a community."

But the mayors are not alone in going after a slice of what is expected to be a multibillion-dollar stimulus package.

State transportation chiefs are drawing up a list of brick-and-mortar projects they want funded. They want the money to come directly to them and not to cities.

The American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials says its members have at least 5,143 projects worth $64.3 billion that are ready to go. The association says Wisconsin has 60 projects with a price tag of $320 million.

Schmitt praised Wisconsin Gov. Jim Doyle for his willingness to work with cities but said putting federal money into city projects would yield more immediate results.

"The new president and his new administration want to see action. I think a direct appropriation to the mayors will accomplish that," he said.

Green Bay projects include:

$5 million to improve entrance way to Ashland Avenue and reduce travel time from the south into downtown.

$4.64 million to rebuild Webster Avenue from Radisson Street to the East River and upgrade lighting and storm and sanitary sewers.

$2.4 million for the second phase of the Riverfront Boardwalk Parkway.

$2.1 million to buy, remove or rehab housing in the Shawano Avenue/West Walnut Street are from Gray Street to Broadway.

$611,298 to set up an energy efficiency and conservation pilot project for Green Bay to build on the mayor's Sustainable Green Bay Task Force efforts to promote energy efficiency.

$100,000 to repair Mason Manor public housing for seniors.

$150,000 to modernize Port Plaza Towers.

$630,000 to replace a forensic and disaster recovery truck, build a new police evidence-drying room, work on a regional training facility, hire a crime prevention coordinator and expand community service interns program.

That would be a start to our rail service. I agree with some of the comments on the GBPG about people not wanting to go to Appleton drinking and having to drive home on 41. Although someone would still have to pick you up at the train station. I have been talking to several people about rail service from Green Bay and most of the people I talked to said they would take the train to Appleton or even Milwaukee/Chicago as well. It is a great idea.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20081210/GPG0101/812100614/1978?GID=OVQBGF1ONwUXg6PEsEp7VvWS3nVJ4gsyAtJPE0tDNvY%3D

$20M party train--that comment was funny.. I'm ALL for rail transportation, but the only way this makes sense is if part of the plan is to connect w/Milwaukee. Once there's a link to the MKE intermodal station, then it makes sense. A train just from GB to APP makes no sense to me.

I know the biggest deal in the mayor’s stimulus funding request is Amtrak. But I thought the S. Ashland Avenue proposal was also interesting. I don’t know what that project would involve.

In my humble opinion, Ashland Avenue in Green Bay south of the viaduct is overbuilt today. It was constructed that way as a four-lane divided highway back in the 1950s when Ashland Avenue carried Highway 41 into the city. That’s before Military Avenue and later the 41 freeway around the city were built.

I wonder if there’s a need today for such a wide roadway there. Why not, I’d suggest, narrow Ashland at that point to four lanes without the wide median strip and then add a heavily planted greenway along one side of the street as a buffer between the road and the Canadian National tracks and industrial area to the east. Just a thought. Not sure it’s feasible. Would certainly improve the look of Green Bay as you drive into the city from that point as well as buffer the residential area to the west.

That would be a start to our rail service. I agree with some of the comments on the GBPG about people not wanting to go to Appleton drinking and having to drive home on 41. Although someone would still have to pick you up at the train station. I have been talking to several people about rail service from Green Bay and most of the people I talked to said they would take the train to Appleton or even Milwaukee/Chicago as well. It is a great idea.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20081210/GPG0101/812100614/1978?GID=OVQBGF1ONwUXg6PEsEp7VvWS3nVJ4gsyAtJPE0tDNvY%3D

I know the biggest deal in the mayor’s stimulus funding request is Amtrak. But I thought the S. Ashland Avenue proposal was also interesting. I don’t know what that project would involve.

In my humble opinion, Ashland Avenue in Green Bay south of the viaduct is overbuilt today. It was constructed that way as a four-lane divided highway back in the 1950s when Ashland Avenue carried Highway 41 into the city. That’s before Military Avenue and later the 41 freeway around the city were built.

I wonder if there’s a need today for such a wide roadway there. Why not, I’d suggest, narrow Ashland at that point to four lanes without the wide median strip and then add a heavily planted greenway along one side of the street as a buffer between the road and the Canadian National tracks and industrial area to the east. Just a thought. Not sure it’s feasible. Would certainly improve the look of Green Bay as you drive into the city from that point as well as buffer the residential area to the west.


I've heard reference to Ashland too, but not sure what the plan might be. It's ugly, for sure, but I don't know that there's a quick fix.

Here's something I'd like to see that I've never heard mentioned. Especially if rail service is going to increase, I think something needs to be done downtown to alleviate the traffic when trains go through. I don't know if an overpass or something would work, but something needs to be done at Main & Walnut..

Regarding the Appleton to GB train: of course it should be linked in as part of a system connecting Green Bay to Milwaukee. But, taking just the GB to Appleton part in isolation, it doesn't say the only two stops would be those (almost certainly not). A commuter train with stops in Appleton, Grand Chute, Kaukauna, Wrightstown, De Pere, Ashwaubenon, and Green Bay could be very successful. There are a tremendous number of commuters heading each way along that corridor. I, of course, am HEAVILY biased in favor of such a system. Then you'd have express service as well with lower frequency, but for those heading farther south than Appleton. How this could be accomplished for $20 million would be interesting to see. But really, if the region is serious about the high-speed rail initiative, then the track is going to exist for such a system, you'd just need the rolling stock and the five extra stations (still not cheap, but it's not as though all the track would have to be purpose built for this).

Regarding Ashland, I think that street is an unhappy medium right now. Either make is more accessible and parkway like as Tower Park suggests, or restrict assess and make it freeway like heading into downtown. Having it how it exists now, but still having to drive 35 on it with ten million stop-lights along the way seems like a waste to me. In any case, improving this seems to have been on the Mayors to-do list for a while, and as I've said before I think his whole name-a-street-after-Favre idea was more than anything an attempt to get funding for these same improvements. If we could get the funding without having to name the street after Favre, even better.

We had a good discussion about Ashland a few months ago. I support restricting access to speed up transit time from 41 to downtown -- preferably a full-fledged freeway. You could really mitigate the perception that it is tedious to get downtown from the freeway system by focusing access on this one high-speed route. And the majority of visitors to the area arrive via northbound 41, so this would capture much of that potential traffic.

I work west of Highway 41 in Green Bay and when I have to go downtown it takes a long time with congested intersections along the way (especially between Wal-Mart and Military/Fisk). If that's the experience that most out-of-towners face when they go downtown, I wouldn't blame them for avoiding it when they can.

We've also discussed the importance of Webster Avenue as a downtown access point from 43, but it would capture fewer visitors. Still, Hwy 43 drivers, Bay Beach/Wildlife Sanctuary visitors, and Door County tourists could be better lured downtown with an attractive and speedy route.

The rail is such a no-brainer I won't even comment further on that. :)

Anyone know what path the proposed Amtrak service would take into the city? I think this would be enormously beneficial to the city. It's painful to see how shortsighted the GBPG naysayers are. It would tie the Fox Cities together into a single economic unit more so than they already are, and position us well for future transportation options. Imagine biking to a station in Wrightstown, taking the train into downtown Green Bay, and then biking to work. Or Vice Versa. If it goes through we need to make sure that tickets are priced so that people are encouraged to leave their cars at home.

"$2.1 million to buy, remove or rehab housing in the Shawano Avenue/West Walnut Street are from Gray Street to Broadway"

Where does the Mayor come up with this? Why this street? Why up to gray? I don't see that Shawano Ave & W. Walnut Street are any worse then many parts of Green Bay. I could come up with many other areas that need a bulldozer more then this. Where does it end? It seems there has to be more to the story.

"A $20 million request for an Amtrak connection between Green Bay and Appleton to move commuters and attract businesses accounts for more than half the costs"

With gas prices they way they are, is there really a plan that can make rail service to Appleton work? Even if it was completely "free" to build, I find it hard to believe that user revenue would pay for the day to day costs. Green Bay to Milwaukee might work, maybe that should be the 1st goal.

" $100,000 to repair Mason Manor public housing for seniors"
That place could use some help. Probably a good idea.

"$150,000 to modernize Port Plaza Towers"
Unless the money is going towards the movement of the current residents to move somewhere else, it's a waste. The goal with this building should be to cut the loss & get out. When the time is right, bring it back to it's former glory as "Hotel Northland".

"$2.4 million for the second phase of the Riverfront Boardwalk Parkway."
I hope this doesn't mean the 2nd phase isn't happening without more gov't money. Maybe he can ask for 10 million to modernize the old Younkers.

"$5 million to improve entrance way to Ashland Avenue and reduce travel time from the south into downtown"

Wasn't the mayor already working on something similar from 43 taking Webster into the city? That was a probably over three years ago. I realize that was a long term plan, but nothing else has been said about it. I think they were going to destroy most homes between Webster & Quincy, then make a business park after upgrading the travel route to downtown.

The route would be the Canadian National track, which runs northward from the Milwaukee area through the Fox Cities and De Pere and then along Ashland Avenue in Ashwaubenon before crossing Broadway in Green Bay just south of Mason Street. The track from there continues northward through the downtown and runs by Titletown Brewing Co.

A commuter route just between Green Bay and Appleton is an interesting idea. Then, I suppose, you could have stops in places like Wrightstown. But if it’s a Green Bay-Milwaukee passenger train, the designated stops would be Green Bay, Appleton, Neenah, Oshkosh, Fond du Lac, West Bend, northwest Milwaukee, downtown Milwaukee, General Mitchell airport and then on to Chicago, from what I’ve read.

P.S. Don’t let some of the Press-Gazette bloggers get you down. I hang out there from time to time and you wouldn’t believe how ugly it can get. Just keep moving forward.

With gas prices they way they are, is there really a plan that can make rail service to Appleton work? Even if it was completely "free" to build, I find it hard to believe that user revenue would pay for the day to day costs. Green Bay to Milwaukee might work, maybe that should be the 1st goal.

Well, gas prices will not stay at $1.65 indefinitely. Over the next decade, unless the efficiency of cars increases markedly, we're more likely to see prices like the $4 this summer. But anyway, almost no transportation system covers it's costs, roads included. So it isn't really a fair argument to wonder if a system will pay for itself on user fees alone. And regarding priority, I'd agree that we should have service to Milwaukee, but there really isn't any reason aside from funding that commuter service couldn't be started at the same time. Once you have the track you have the track so you might as well use it.

While we are at it could we get some sidewalks put in on Pilgrim from Holmgren to Ashland?

I walk this way every day and during the summer I can walk on the bumpy grass and weeds but now,with all the snow piled up I'm half way in the street and with the HW offramp right there...dangerous.

And speaking of Ashland. Could the lights be tuned to allow a pedestrian time to cross 4 lanes of traffic?

I hate that whole set up with a bloody passion.

Again,it goes back to the whole car-centric deal that is always talked about w/ this community.

Oh..and people...when there is ice on the roads and no sidewalks and you see people (me) walking in the street..PLEASE slow down.


I'd love to see that entire zone ripped up and rebuilt....it's a joke.

That would be a start to our rail service. Although someone would still have to pick you up at the train station. I have been talking to several people about rail service from Green Bay and most of the people I talked to said they would take the train to Appleton or even Milwaukee/Chicago as well. It is a great idea.


Holy crap!! I can't believe this news!! Well you know I am excited.

Of course the train would have to connect all the way from Green Bay to APpleton and through Oshkosh, Fond du Lac, West Bend, Milwaukee and Chicago.

Key point, though: Because none of the "Fox Cities" are particularly large individually, in order to get the federal government to recognize us, we may have to take some initiative here. Without us taking initiative, the Fed gov't won't realize that the Fox Cities do make up a metro of I'm guessing close to a millino people...the string of cities which are heavily travelled between makes sense for a train, particularly with the linear arrangment of the cities. We won't be on the radar screen unless we act. The federal people could easily look at it like this: "...Huh, trains to Green Bay? .... Green Bay is 100,000 people, so let's prioritize elsewhere where there is more population." Let's educate them that the train makes a lot of sense for Fox Cities as a collective whole, since the overall population is much greater and quite likely to use this service. The numbers work.

$20M party train--that comment was funny.. I'm ALL for rail transportation, but the only way this makes sense is if part of the plan is to connect w/Milwaukee. Once there's a link to the MKE intermodal station, then it makes sense. A train just from GB to APP makes no sense to me.

See my comment above. I'm glad our mayor is making some noise with this. I wish some of our other community leaders would also step to the plate on this. Who else has some clout? OUr governor perhaps could help. I think I'm going to write him.


In my humble opinion, Ashland Avenue in Green Bay south of the viaduct is overbuilt today. It was constructed that way as a four-lane divided highway back in the 1950s when Ashland Avenue carried Highway 41 into the city. That’s before Military Avenue and later the 41 freeway around the city were built.

I wonder if there’s a need today for such a wide roadway there. Why not, I’d suggest, narrow Ashland at that point to four lanes without the wide median strip and then add a heavily planted greenway along one side of the street as a buffer between the road and the Canadian National tracks and industrial area to the east. Just a thought. Not sure it’s feasible. Would certainly improve the look of Green Bay as you drive into the city from that point as well as buffer the residential area to the west.

What a cool idea.

Well, gas prices will not stay at $1.65 indefinitely. Over the next decade, unless the efficiency of cars increases markedly, we're more likely to see prices like the $4 this summer. But anyway, almost no transportation system covers it's costs, roads included. So it isn't really a fair argument to wonder if a system will pay for itself on user fees alone. And regarding priority, I'd agree that we should have service to Milwaukee, but there really isn't any reason aside from funding that commuter service couldn't be started at the same time. Once you have the track you have the track so you might as well use it.

Danillo is absolutely right on here. Besides, it's not even all about gas prices. There are other reasons to use regional rail, namely convenience and comfort. For example, business travellers can work on laptops, read, etc while riding the train.

There is A LOT to chew on in today's posts. I may have more later but the family needs some attention.

if you want sidewalks in Ashwaubenon then you better beat down the idiots in the village town hall and not pointing the finger at the GB Mayor as it is so common for people to do. anyone can place blame on the major cities mayor but the suburbs are making bad decisions everyday as well. the thing that really gets me about the burbs is that when something goes wrong, they blame the major city. but when things go well it's because the suburbs allow it to happen or it was their idea. i hate politics

But if it’s a Green Bay-Milwaukee passenger train, the designated stops would be Green Bay, Appleton, Neenah, Oshkosh, Fond du Lac, West Bend, northwest Milwaukee, downtown Milwaukee, General Mitchell airport and then on to Chicago, from what I’ve read.

The MWRRI (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/state/docs/railmidwest.pdf) seems to indicate exactly those stations, and to me those make the most sense as an intercity "express" train and is also the most likely thing to occur first. But once you've got the track upgraded and usable at 110 mph, then what else can happen?

My plan is to create a commuter train system along the entire Milwaukee-Green Bay route. You'd still have the express trains as shown above that operate about 7 times daily, and would fill the need of people needing to go to a different city for a day once in a while, and connect all the residents of those cities with the Amtrak national network in Milwaukee/Chicago. But then you'd have 10-20 additional trains per day operating as local trains or commuter trains, depending on how you see it. The stops would be something like this:

Green Bay, Ashwaubenon, De Pere, Wrightstown, Kaukauna, Little Chute, Appleton, Neenah, Oshkosh, North FdL, FdL, Eden, Campbellsport, Kewaskum, West Bend, Jackson, Granville, [somewhere], State St, Miller Park [event use only], Menomonee Valley, Downtown Milwaukee

Add to those a few stop that make great sense as a park-n-ride spot, such as at STH 172, CTH J & 41, STH 441 & Northland, Breezewood Ln, or Germantown

That commuter line would be unlike most commuter systems where it is heavily tilted toward a downtown, like Chicago. On this system, many of those stops could be a work destination. There would be a mix every day of people going north or south.

As time has gone on, many people in NE Wisconsin have treated the Fox Cities/Green Bay as one marketplace for jobs. More people live in GB and work in Appleton or Neenah than ever before, and this has shown up as heavier traffic on US 41. Some couples work in different cities. This commuter train would serve to improve those people's lives, and also to expand the possible jobs for other people who wouldn't want to drive that distance every day.

Once the system is in place, GB would need to get its transit act together to integrate its bus system with the train. How many people live in the Fox Cities that go to UWGB every day for work or class? What about the insurance giants around town? Or Schnieder? I'd say there would be enough people for at least a dedicated shuttle to those places.

And of course, this would only serve to strengthen the urban cores at these stations. It'll create more demand for jobs and homes nearby. Just look at Chicago's Metra system... it is basically a string of pearls revived by the trains... cute downtowns with lots of housing.

I'm extremely excited about the amtrak comments. I actually just used the Hiawatha line this week and if it is half as busy as that is, I'm sure it will work financially.

The thought of a train ride to MKE/Chicago would be freaking awesome for me considering I work a lot in Chicago and have friends and family in MKE. Lets hope there is substance to this and it is implemented well. I'm sure many others would benefit as much as me.

De Pere and St. Norbert's should lobby hard for a stop. The old W. De Pere depot use to be at Grant and 5th Streets, just a couple of blocks from the St. Norbert Campus and the West De Pere business district.

The best thing that I can do as a member of this forum is to make people in our community aware of the positive impact of rail. Just talking to people everyday at work, many are unaware of the possibility of Green Bay getting rail. I really get the impression a large percentage of people in this town never pay attention to the news or read a newspaper. Also, talking to people I am so sick of hearing people tell me, "Oh I don't remember the last time I was in downtown."

I would have to agree with Bay2Bay about St. Norbert. Also, what percentage of the students are from Milwaukee/Chicagoland, quite a few. There also is a lot of people that I know that are from Milwaukee/Chicago and or have ties to these cities were they would use the train service a couple times a year, rather then have to fight traffic.

I see the ACLU is seeking an investigation on the expansion of I-94 south of Milwaukee. I am in favor of one of their views that there has to be other ways of transportation other then spending another $2 Billion on highways.

Why is my initial reaction, "Nooooooooooo...........!!!!!!"? Not because of the "hood" but just because of all the other crap out there.

Well I guess if that's where other people want to go out to eat. I won't go there, but that's just me.WHat do you mean by all the other "crap" out there?

I see the ACLU is seeking an investigation on the expansion of I-94 south of Milwaukee. I am in favor of one of their views that there has to be other ways of transportation other then spending another $2 Billion on highways.
Why would the ACLU be involved in this type of project? That stretch road needs major upgrading. People can hope and dream all they want but people are not going to give up their cars no matter what. Would I like to see rail, sure I think it would a great novlety for a while, but would I use it for most of my travels, of course not.

Now maybe I don't understand completely but once you get to your destination station, then the logistics of getting to where you actually need to be kick in.

WHat do you mean by all the other "crap" out there?

I was thinking this was out near Wal Mart. I'm not particularly fond of that part of W Mason. However I now realize that Baskin Robbins is not located there.

Why would the ACLU be involved in this type of project? That stretch road needs major upgrading. People can hope and dream all they want but people are not going to give up their cars no matter what. Would I like to see rail, sure I think it would a great novlety for a while, but would I use it for most of my travels, of course not.

Now maybe I don't understand completely but once you get to your destination station, then the logistics of getting to where you actually need to be kick in.

I'm guessing the ACLU might be involved because you could argue that spending so much of our nations wealth on roads and not other forms of transportation can seriously affect the liberties of a certain segment of our population who don't drive. Yes, roads and oil and all of the car culture is subsidized.

Upgrading a road is one thing--, keep a road paved, in good condition, fine and good. But widening it is another thing. Road widening usually leads to even more traffic, it's an endless cycle ( Jevon's Paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox)).

As far as the rail thing. It's not just a "novelty". That might be part of it but there is a whole lot of practicality to it as well. Now of course we all know that once to a destination, there has got to be other forms of transportation. A rail depot needs to be tied in with local transit. So you get dropped off on the regional rail in downtown, people can take a taxi, hop on the bus. Might seem "inconvenient" but not really when you think about the often-greater inconvenience of driving, sitting in traffic, finding and paying for parking, etc. Rail travel may not be perfect or ideal for everyone. But we can have that option. We can keep driving, if people want to drive fine. But a certain segment of the population would use rail instead, no doubt, which could reduce some of the need for expensive road widening, costly parking lots and garages, etc.

"WisDOT, however, rejected that approach. The ACLU complaint also asserts that expanding highways without moving forward on public transportation projects has a discriminatory effect on communities of color, who are disproportionately dependent on public transit"

The ACLU is crazy! How dare the gov't support a program (or in this case a expanded highway) that might be used by a greater percentage of white people then minorities. All the money that is taken away via taxes to support these social programs, is it to much to ask for a highway with enough lanes to avoid a traffic jam? With all the money the drivers pay on the gas tax, I think you could consider that a non-subsidized project. The users have paid for this highway expansion many times over. Heck, I've even paid my fair share on the moronic toll booths in Illi-noise. I'm not against mass transit, I just don't like groups calling people racist for not conforming to their agenda. Ok...I know it's coming....Let me have it.

Now maybe I don't understand completely but once you get to your destination station, then the logistics of getting to where you actually need to be kick in.

Park car in MKE for $10 a day, walk/cab/El/Metra in Chicago. :lol:

But I agree, this is a factor in Green Bay and the Fox Valley. I think these stations would have to be heavily integrated with the bus systems.


Ok...I know it's coming....Let me have it.

I think it's fine to expect a fair share for yourself and others like you. I also think people different from you also deserve their fair share, and that's all the ACLU is asking for. They are not saying that the freeway shouldn't be fixed or expanded, but that the pathetic mass transit system of the greater Milwaukee metro should be straightened out first.

Regarding the Appleton to GB train: of course it should be linked in as part of a system connecting Green Bay to Milwaukee. But, taking just the GB to Appleton part in isolation, it doesn't say the only two stops would be those (almost certainly not). A commuter train with stops in Appleton, Grand Chute, Kaukauna, Wrightstown, De Pere, Ashwaubenon
CN's ex WC, exx FRVR, nee CNW Green Bay line does pass through Grand Chute Township, but only via a couple of tiny corner 'ticks'. It is essentially a part of Appleton that a weak state law regarding municipal boundaries keeps out of the city. *NO* station there, only in downtown Appleton and MAYBE Neenah. I also don't see stops in Kaukauna, Wightstown nor De Pere and only a 'special event' stop in the Ashwaubenon area, at least for the forseeable future.
, and Green Bay could be very successful. There are a tremendous number of commuters heading each way along that corridor. I, of course, am HEAVILY biased in favor of such a system. Then you'd have express service as well with lower frequency, but for those heading farther south than Appleton. How this could be accomplished for $20 million would be interesting to see. But really, if the region is serious about the high-speed rail initiative, then the track is going to exist for such a system, you'd just need the rolling stock and the five extra stations (still not cheap, but it's not as though all the track would have to be purpose built for this).

Regarding Ashland, I think that street is an unhappy medium right now. Either make is more accessible and parkway like as Tower Park suggests, or restrict assess and make it freeway like heading into downtown. Having it how it exists now, but still having to drive 35 on it with ten million stop-lights along the way seems like a waste to me. In any case, improving this seems to have been on the Mayors to-do list for a while, and as I've said before I think his whole name-a-street-after-Favre idea was more than anything an attempt to get funding for these same improvements. If we could get the funding without having to name the street after Favre, even better.
There already is a street named after him in the Green Bay postal area.

Mike

I find it interesting how fast people forget that gas will run out. This WORLDWIDE slowdown is temporally deflating the value of crude oil and hurting our progress of reducing dependence on hydrocarbon based energy. We need to get our shit together before the next "incident" happens and our crude oil supply is impacted. I find it absurd that we are wasting a ton of money widening 41 instead of proving options for transportation. Rail is absolutely necessary to connect our economy to the rest of the country and the world. We need rail- we need to move past our addiction to the car. I understand that some people just don't get it... or will always find it unconventional to not have the ability to drive door to door. I am fine with that. All I want are some options- so I am not left vulnerable when the next disaster happens.

41 needs to be widened. People will not give up there cars for anything. a car gives everyone their wanted independence. even when we finally move away from crude oil, one of the first changes will be with the military vehicles to run on a renewable energy. that technology will then move down to the private vehicles for everyone purchase. so regardless on where we go for renewable energy, everyone will still hold onto there cars

I find it absurd that we are wasting a ton of money widening 41 instead of proving options for transportation.

You've got to be kidding. Say for example, BAM, tomorrow we have a rail system of your dreams. And to continue on with your dream, gas is $5.00 a gallon. Do you think all of a sudden that the traffic jams on 41 would stop? I could argue that traffic sitting at a stand still burns more oil, then traffic moving along at a good clip. Thus widening lanes could save some oil. I remember when 41 was a two lane road for a good chunk North of Green Bay. If you could go back in time would you be against the expansion to a four lane? There is plenty of oil out there, if they just allow companies to extract it. Or they can just allow some more 3rd world countries to park off our cost & extract it.

We have to continue on with energy saving technology & programs, but not sacrifice the safety and common sense issues that directly affect us today.

A train between Appleton and Green Bay
Did anybody else have the theme song from Petticoat Junction dance in their head when they read that line?:banana:

http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_jun2004/TrainOverload.jpg

Gas at $10 a gallon....

This is from yesterday’s Press-Gazette. Nice to see Military Avenue getting some much-needed attention. This was once a top-tier shopping district in Green Bay but, seems to me, has fallen far behind Ashwaubenon’s Oneida Street in recent decades. Anything to help the area.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20081211/GPG03/812110609/1247

8 roundabouts among Military Avenue options
Three reconstruction plans presented at meeting

BY RICHARD RYMAN • RRYMAN@GREENBAYPRESSGAZETTE.COM • DECEMBER 11, 2008

The possibility of roundabouts on Military Avenue — eight of them — drew a crowd Wednesday night to a public meeting on reconstruction options for the busy commercial street.

The roundabouts option was one of three presented during a public information meeting at Kennedy Elementary School in Green Bay. The other options were for four lanes and six lanes with stop lights at intersections.

The project will include the reconstruction of Military Avenue from near Langlade Avenue to Dousman Street.

About 175 residents and business owners attended the event, where drawings of the options were posted on the walls of the school gym. There were also drawings on a computer and a video about why roundabouts are safer than intersections.

Some of Wednesday's turnout may have been the result of efforts by Aldermen John Vander Leest and Steven Deneys and Brown County Supervisor Patrick Evans, who distributed fliers about the meeting to neighboring residents, and who oppose the roundabout option.

"One thing everybody agrees on, Military Avenue needs to be upgraded," said Mayor Jim Schmitt. "I think it's good we put a lot on the table this time."

Kevin Gatens, who lives near John Muir Park, is skeptical of roundabouts based on his experience in De Pere.

"People were tailgating and speeding and just abusing it," he said.

Gatens thought six lanes encourages people to speed, so was leaning toward the four-lane option.

Graham Callis, who lives on Mitchell Street, preferred the roundabout option, though he was disappointed there were no provisions for bicycle lanes.

"The city is looking at being renewable/sustainable. Bikes are going to be part of that," he said.

Business owners Joe Mongin of Mongin Insurance, 501 S. Military Ave., and Mike Hansen of Minuteman Press, 513 S. Military Ave., were contemplating the options.

"It's a lot to take in," Mongin said.

Hansen was concerned the roundabouts would make it difficult getting to the businesses nearest the intersections, particularly those at West Mason Street and Shawano Avenue.

"You are talking two of the busiest streets already. I think you have to stick with six lanes," Hansen said, though he too would like drivers to slow down and notice the businesses along the street.

Mongin and Hansen wondered why there was no plan with a combination of roundabouts and lights.

Schmitt said that might still be an option.

"We didn't ask people to vote on one specific plan. We asked for comments," he said.

The plan is to get the project approved by the City Council in January so that construction can begin in 2010. It needs to be completed before reconstruction of U.S. 41 begins soon after. Military Avenue is expected to receive heavy traffic during the U.S. 41 reconstruction.

Even if roundabouts are rejected for Military Avenue, drivers will not escape them. Carl Weber, Green Bay public works director, said the state Department of Transportation plans roundabouts at the U.S. 41 exits and one street deep in each direction.

Weber was pleased by Wednesday's turnout.

"We don't want to sneak up on anybody with something as important at this," he said. "What we've tried to do is ask 'How do you improve access in and out.'"

Mike Lefebvre of Graef, Anhalt, Schloemer and Associates, the city's consultant, said there is no preferred option at this point.

Also, the new Military Avenue Business Association on Tuesday elected Bryan Boettcher, president of QuickSigns, 525 S. Military Ave., as its president. It named Gene Hackbarth, former director of the De Pere Main Street program, its part-time director.

At this point, no one is talking about phasing out cars. It's not an either/or situation. This is a broadening of the options available to people. The fact is that there is not plenty of oil out there. There is an ever shrinking pool of oil out there, and what's there is increasingly difficult to extract. Domestically, we have 3-5% of the oil that we require, so Drill Baby Drill may sound good at a political rally, but it's a short sighted and short falling solution. In this country we need to shift our attention from the supply side of fossil fuels, to the demand side, and this means conservation. This means more energy efficient cars (hybrids and electrics) and a broader range of transit options. Public transit is a lot more efficient. Already we've seen an increase in ridership that hasn't dissipated since gas prices went down. Who'll take the Green Bay/Appleton train? Assuming the ticket price is competitive, I will and most people that I know.

I've lived in a country (Italy) where gas costs around 6$ a gallon and cars cost about 30-40% more; and I have seen for myself that a rail transit system works, especially when tied in with a good bus system. A little more than half of the people there have cars, but even those who do don't use them exclusively. They're rightly viewed as one of a range of transit options. There is no bias against public transit. Mopeds (upwards of 100 mpg) are also used frequently. It's not uncommon to see women in fur coats riding mopeds. In this country, we've taken a different tack: we've heavily subsidized cars to the exclusion of everything else and now we're painted into a corner as we look to the future. We need to get out of that corner because our commercial security depends on it. Frankly, I have NO idea why this has become a political issue, when it's simple pragmatism.

About Military Ave:

1) I am really warming up to roundabouts - the ones that I have seen and used so far appear to be working out VERY WELL. I, for one, *HATE* sitting at red lights when there is no conflicting traffic.

2) I also agree that much of it is too wide - there is no traffic need for six lanes and it should be narrowed to four. The City of Green Bay has a very good opportunity to do some top-notch streetscaping on it, too.

Mike

About Military Ave:

1) I am really warming up to roundabouts - the ones that I have seen and used so far appear to be working out VERY WELL. I, for one, *HATE* sitting at red lights when there is no conflicting traffic.

2) I also agree that much of it is too wide - there is no traffic need for six lanes and it should be narrowed to four. The City of Green Bay has a very good opportunity to do some top-notch streetscaping on it, too.

Mike

I agree 100%. But then again, you have the loser elected officials listening to one or two people who think that reducing the lanes will kill off all of the businesses. The numbers don't lie - traffic counts don't warrant 6 lanes now and will not warrant 6 lanes even if all of the commercial property was developed at its highest and best use.

In this time of municipalities looking for ways to save money, why waste money for pavement, maintenance of pavement, plowing, etc for a road that doesn't need to be that wide? Try dressing it up with landscaping and lighting. That area is so devoid of anything nice looking it is pathetic.

Big fan of the roundabout's also, do any of you have concerns about the use of them at high profile intersections like military & mason? I hear the DOT is also considering putting roundabouts at all the exits or surrounding intersections when they expand 41. For example at Mason & Taylor. The DOT is buying businesses up that are located near Shawano & Taylor to make room for the plans.

http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/MilitaryAve/Downloads/Roundabout.pdf

You've got to be kidding. Say for example, BAM, tomorrow we have a rail system of your dreams. And to continue on with your dream, gas is $5.00 a gallon. Do you think all of a sudden that the traffic jams on 41 would stop? I could argue that traffic sitting at a stand still burns more oil, then traffic moving along at a good clip. Thus widening lanes could save some oil. I remember when 41 was a two lane road for a good chunk North of Green Bay. If you could go back in time would you be against the expansion to a four lane? There is plenty of oil out there, if they just allow companies to extract it. Or they can just allow some more 3rd world countries to park off our cost & extract it.

We have to continue on with energy saving technology & programs, but not sacrifice the safety and common sense issues that directly affect us today.

Well, I'll be honest. I rarely use 41 and when I do traffic is alway flowing, In fact most of the time I would consider the traffic light. If you think the traffic around here is bad I suggest you get out a little and explore, Hell you only need to go to Chicago. Most of the freeways/tollways there are 2 lanes each direction. I fully agree with the safty expansion of 141 - 41 to the north and 29 to the west but capacity expansion in GB is silly, peak traffic cant last for more then a few hours a day, we could do some major reconfigurations of most of the interchanges and that would solve a bunch of the gridlock. All expansion does is allow for people to live further and further away from the commerce center, creating larger gaps in this society and become more dependant on their car. All those people that live in Coleman that drive to green bay for work must love the highway but if and when gas prices spike again they are going to be the same people complaning about how much they spend on gas. I realize that I won't convince anyone one way or another. Just my 2c

btw I really like the single lane round-a-bout but the 2 lane ones are almost impossible to walk across, not at all improving the liveability of an area.

here is the link (http://www.dot.wi.gov/projects/us41expansion/brown-int.htm) to the 41 plans.

Given what I see when I drive Military Avenue, six lanes seems far too wide for today’s volume of traffic there. Four lanes would look to be sufficient. This, then, would give the city an even greater opportunity to do attractive new streetscaping and lighting to distinguish the area and draw in more shoppers, eaters and visitors.

It did hurt when I-43 went through that an interchange was not built at N. Military Ave. That discouraged access to Military from the north and more commercial expansion along the street. But there may have been environmental reasons (marshland) why an interchange was not constructed at I-43.

It helps, though, that the city recently repealed that 19th century ordinance prohibiting liquor licenses on the west side between Broadway and Taylor. The repeal leaves the door open now for things like new wine shops, up-scale or better-scale restaurants serving liquor, or maybe even a new hotel to locate along Military in time.

How about lights at the major intersections of W. Mason St. (Highway 54) and Shawano Ave. (Highway 29) and roundabouts elsewhere on Military? Roundabouts do slow traffic down and, I think, make a street look more inviting and attractive. And they help budgets because they’re cheaper than traffic lights. And they work. I like ‘em.

P.S. Military Avenue really fades out north of Dousman and south of Ninth. Maybe in time the city (and the Village of Howard to the north) can look at street improvements there too, like getting rid of the gravel shoulders and drainage ditches or putting in tapered curbs like those along East Shore Drive.

traffic lights and roundabouts do not tend to work very well with each other. Roundabouts promote free traffic flow whereas signaled intersections do not.

Traffic tends to backup up at the signal light then the movement through the roundabout will be disrupted.

This has been studied for years. It would be a mistake to interchange the 2 intersections as would it be a mistake to keep the current 3 lanes each direction.

Hell if military is 3 lanes 41 should be 10 lanes...

Links:
WI DOT (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/safety/motorist/roaddesign/roundabout-design.htm)
FHWA (http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/intersections/roundabouts.htm)
IIHS (http://www.iihs.org/research/qanda/roundabouts.html)

If you think the traffic around here is bad I suggest you get out a little and explore, Hell you only need to go to Chicago. Most of the freeways/tollways there are 2 lanes each direction.

1. I think part of the point is that WE DON'T WANT TRAFFIC LIKE CHICAGO. We know it is better here than there, and want to keep it that way. No one is claiming traffic in GB is even close to that of Chicago.

2. Except for the Skyway and the Edens Spur, all the freeways/tollways in Chicagoland are 3 lanes in each direction, or more.

With all that being said, I sure hope Wisconsin diversifies and gets some real intercity passenger rail.

Green Bay metro people are to STUPID to handle roundabouts. I LOVE THEM! The other day I had someone STOP in front of me IN the roundabout to let traffic in I DAMN NEAR rear-ended him! :nuts: Then you have the yo-yos who drive up and STOP, WAIT and eventually go!!!! GOOD LORD people when approaching just slow down look left and if clear GO GO GO, its not that DAMN difficult. Good lord I was in DC recently went through a roundabout with I swear had 20 lanes :lol: and traffic just MOVES!!!!! People here are just TOO stupid! And then you think they are going to figure out how to ride the train! :ohno:

A lot of the issues with roundabouts are that they are an intersection design that is very new to the USA and they do have a learning curve. I doubt that they were covered AT ALL in any drivers' ed class, at least here in the Midwest USA, before about 2005 or so. And I also agree, when everyone is familiar with them, they work SPLENDIDLY.

Another thing that I like about them is their traffic dispersal effect, making a tendency of not wanting to turn at intersections, as well as the inherent delays associated with turns (especially at odd-angled ones like Military/Velp), far less of an issue. They can also handle a lot of traffic, especially with lots of turning movements, like at Mason/Military. There is a reason why the engineers at WisDOT are very comfortable with them at all of those intersections that are covered by the planned US 41 and WI 29 (west) upgrades. Taylor/Shawano - that is a major intersection just like Mason/Military and it will be a roundabout in a sea of others.

And further, 'special event' traffic control at them (ie, before and after Packer games) can be handled effectively with far fewer cops and traffic delays than with regular intersections. Thus, I wouldn't mind seeing them added at Lombardi/Military, Lombardi/Oneida and Ashland/Lombardi (although the railroad is an issue at this one), too. The US 41/Lombardi ramp intersections are already getting them in the US 41 upgrade plans.

Mike

1. I think part of the point is that WE DON'T WANT TRAFFIC LIKE CHICAGO. We know it is better here than there, and want to keep it that way. No one is claiming traffic in GB is even close to that of Chicago.

2. Except for the Skyway and the Edens Spur, all the freeways/tollways in Chicagoland are 3 lanes in each direction, or more.

With all that being said, I sure hope Wisconsin diversifies and gets some real intercity passenger rail.

I totally agree with all your points. I was just at midway and virtually all of the tri-state was 2 lanes- albeit under construction.

My point was/is that there are many more deserving projects then an expansion of 41.

Come to think about it 26 south from Oshkosh to 151 is my vote for the most deserving highway project, IMO.

All of this rail transportation is incredible. First, what we need are alternatives, not expanding on one mode of transit... what i mean by this is we do need trains, and not to expand 41. The only reason why roads get backed up due to non-accident reasons are because of bad interchanges...41 can be fixed with longer on/off ramps, auxilary lanes, better sight distances. buses or large vans that go out to park and ride lots off of the freeways would be a good alternative. there should be more soundwalls along 41 by residential areas, i know some are going to go up during the 41 project, but there are still areas that are being left out.

roundabouts - I love them

Military ave - i also think it doesnt need 3 lanes each way, what i propose is to have it 4 lanes total, then i think what would be cool is to have a vintage trolley line in the median just like kenosha.

hwy 26 - thats a seasonal road, i travel a few times...i just dont know, maybe longer passing lanes would be just fine, or alternating passing lanes - continuous 3 lanes, but changes every so often which side gets the 2nd lane.

Pedestrian under/overpasses can fix the intersection problems.

night rider - funny pic of the train

At this point, no one is talking about phasing out cars. It's not an either/or situation. This is a broadening of the options available to people. The fact is that there is not plenty of oil out there. There is an ever shrinking pool of oil out there, and what's there is increasingly difficult to extract. Domestically, we have 3-5% of the oil that we require, so Drill Baby Drill may sound good at a political rally, but it's a short sighted and short falling solution. In this country we need to shift our attention from the supply side of fossil fuels, to the demand side, and this means conservation. This means more energy efficient cars (hybrids and electrics) and a broader range of transit options. Public transit is a lot more efficient. Already we've seen an increase in ridership that hasn't dissipated since gas prices went down. Who'll take the Green Bay/Appleton train? Assuming the ticket price is competitive, I will and most people that I know.

A little more than half of the people there have cars, but even those who do don't use them exclusively. They're rightly viewed as one of a range of transit options. There is no bias against public transit. Mopeds (upwards of 100 mpg) are also used frequently. It's not uncommon to see women in fur coats riding mopeds. In this country, we've taken a different tack: we've heavily subsidized cars to the exclusion of everything else and now we're painted into a corner as we look to the future. We need to get out of that corner because our commercial security depends on it. Frankly, I have NO idea why this has become a political issue, when it's simple pragmatism.

Native, you nailed it. Oil prices will not remain low. We've had many warning signs already, starting in the 1970s and again last summer. It's time to heed those warnings, We just bought some more time here. We have already had a "drill baby drill" after teh 1970s oil crises, and the result did get us more oil but as the chart below shows it was merely a blip in the production curve.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/usoilproduction.jpg

There is indeed a lot of oil left, billions of barrels sounds like a lot, but what people always need to keep in mind is that the oil we've extracted already was the easiest to extract, and thus the cheapest oil to extract. Most of the oil that's left is in the hardest, most expensive places to reach. We can drill baby drill" but let's rmember that offshore drilling in deep water is very very expensive, if they miscalculate how much is under a rig they've got a serious and very expensive mistake that will be passed down to us, the consumers. I have been studying this whole "peak oil" thing for a while now. The U.S. oil production peaked in the 1970's. There is a lot of conflicting information out there, but the consensus among the true scientists is that we're at or near the peak on the Global production now; that is, we've already extracted half of the oil, the half that was easiest-to-get and cheapest. Now we're on a "bumpy plateau" (currently we're just in a minor trough due to the economy) but we will head down the production curve. All that while demand is skyrocketing with other countries like China and India starting to become much larger consumers of oil. There are some out there who argue that there is plenty of oil to last dozens or even hundreds of years, but it looks like those arguments are based on "junk science" (or these people are dubiously motivated). It is true that there is a lot of oil left, but again, it won't be cheap to extract. This oil issue will be a HUGE crisis, permeating our entire way of life. If we don't start doing someting about it, we're going to be in for a big shock not far into the future.

It's really time to diversify our transportation. Cars will remain with us but we cannot rely so heavily on them as our only option, as we do currently. Electric cars are probably the future, especially for local trips. But for longer trips, electric cars may not be the answer w/o some sort of technological revolution in batteries. That's where the train comes in, those regional (100-500 mile) trips. Too far to drive, too short to fly. There's a niche there, clearly. And it's not even just about oil and being "green" and all that: Rail is just plain convenient, considering the traffic snarls, parking problems, stress of driving..etc. Sorry I go on. There are so many good reasons to do this.

What's awesome about trains and trolleys, by the way, is that they can easily be powered by electricity as the lines can run along the tracks. And electricity, of course, can be generated in a lot of different ways w/o relying on foreign inputs or expensive, unproven technology. Even the Fox River hydroelectric dams could do it. So could wind or a variety of other locally-produced ways. Electric trains would also be a lot quieter and cleaner, this is important as the passenger rail lines need to move right though the middle of cities and towns and they need to be a "good neighbor" or people who live near the trains will hate them.

About Military Ave:

1) I am really warming up to roundabouts - the ones that I have seen and used so far appear to be working out VERY WELL. I, for one, *HATE* sitting at red lights when there is no conflicting traffic.

2) I also agree that much of it is too wide - there is no traffic need for six lanes and it should be narrowed to four. The City of Green Bay has a very good opportunity to do some top-notch streetscaping on it, too.

Mike

Let's remember that Military Ave was originally designed to be "US 41", that's why it was 6 lanes. Now that the new US 41 was built out farther to the west, there is really no reason for it to continue to be 6 lanes. What's more, as you all have mentioned, they could do some really top-notch streetscaping and stuff to turn that area into some place special.

THe people who are opposed to the lane reductions and the roundabouts are just not seeing the big picture.

Green Bay metro people are to STUPID to handle roundabouts. I LOVE THEM! The other day I had someone STOP in front of me IN the roundabout to let traffic in I DAMN NEAR rear-ended him! :nuts: Then you have the yo-yos who drive up and STOP, WAIT and eventually go!!!! GOOD LORD people when approaching just slow down look left and if clear GO GO GO, its not that DAMN difficult. Good lord I was in DC recently went through a roundabout with I swear had 20 lanes :lol: and traffic just MOVES!!!!! People here are just TOO stupid! And then you think they are going to figure out how to ride the train! :ohno:

At least these people won't be DRIVING the train!!

A lot of the issues with roundabouts are that they are an intersection design that is very new to the USA and they do have a learning curve. I doubt that they were covered AT ALL in any drivers' ed class, at least here in the Midwest USA, before about 2005 or so. And I also agree, when everyone is familiar with them, they work SPLENDIDLY.

Another thing that I like about them is their traffic dispersal effect, making a tendency of not wanting to turn at intersections, as well as the inherent delays associated with turns (especially at odd-angled ones like Military/Velp), far less of an issue. They can also handle a lot of traffic, especially with lots of turning movements, like at Mason/Military. There is a reason why the engineers at WisDOT are very comfortable with them at all of those intersections that are covered by the planned US 41 and WI 29 (west) upgrades. Taylor/Shawano - that is a major intersection just like Mason/Military and it will be a roundabout in a sea of others.

And further, 'special event' traffic control at them (ie, before and after Packer games) can be handled effectively with far fewer cops and traffic delays than with regular intersections. Thus, I wouldn't mind seeing them added at Lombardi/Military, Lombardi/Oneida and Ashland/Lombardi (although the railroad is an issue at this one), too. The US 41/Lombardi ramp intersections are already getting them in the US 41 upgrade plans.

Mike

Right on Mike. You said it well. There are many places in the city where I can only WISH we had roundabouts. Has anyone here ever tried to turn left from East Shore Drive onto Nicolet to go north? It is HORRIBLE without roundabouts. Cars whiz along Nicolet quite fast there, and it can be busy at times (when the university is busy, if there's an event or whatever). I've had to sit and wait at the stop sign on East Shore Drive forever. A roundabout would have been perfect here.

Here’s a follow-up article today on Mayor Schmitt’s request for federal stimulus money. Sounds like he has to submit his final list of projects to the U.S. Conference of Mayors by this Tuesday. Then the proposals are supposed to go to Congressional subcommittees. There’s no mention in this article of the Green Bay-to-Appleton Amtrak proposal, although most of the other preliminarily listed projects aren’t mentioned here either. The article says the stimulus projects must be “ready-to-go,” started within 90 days of receipt of funds and completed by the end of 2010.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20081213/GPG0101/812130657/1978

I wonder if the city would be in any way, shape or form ready to include any city monies in its stimulus proposal for any new Bullfrogs stadium project if that’s going to happen. Or would that be far too premature? It’d certainly be a bricks-and-mortar project helping boost local employment.

By the way, thanks everyone for your links and pdf’s – the Midwest Regional Rail System report, roundabouts, maps of the proposed Military Avenue project and 41 upgrade, etc. The 41 upgrade proposal and maps, for one, made me realize the 41 project isn’t just about widening the freeway from four lanes to six from De Pere to Howard. It’s also about huge reconstructions of the 41/29 and 41/43 interchanges into what they call “free-flow freeway-to-freeway interchanges.” Also, by my quick count if it’s accurate, there are close to 30 new roundabouts along the upgrade route at various interchanges and intersections. I find this all fascinating.

P.S. I wish I knew how to do maps and images here. I’d display that map from page 6 of the Midwest Regional Rail System executive report showing Amtrak extending from Chicago to Green Bay and elsewhere throughout the Midwest.

You mean this one?

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/MidwestRegionalRailSystem.jpg

I had the same question about how to post images when I first joined this forum.

I use Photobucket to post my images here. Just upload the pics to Photobucket (it's free!) and then it's easy to click the "Direct Link" to copy the URL and then just hit the "Insert Image" button above, and paste that photo URL into the box that pops up here.

Here's (http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/)my entire photobucket album. After you click the link you should see the "logon" button for you to create your own account and post your own photos.

I also have a Google PIcasa web album (http://picasaweb.google.com/gBayPacker)but for some reason those images just don't work with this forum, the direct image link won't display the pictures within this forum.

Anyway good luck! I look forward to seeing your images.

Yes, that’s the one. Thanks Puant! I’ll be following up on your procedures and learn how to post images, maps, etc. here. And you’re absolutely right. A perfect location for a future roundabout, seems to me, would be the intersection of East Shore Drive and Nicolet Drive by UWGB. UWGB – still a commuter school although it has more and more on-campus housing - has some 5,500 students, with more expansion expected, and traffic ties up there at the start and end of the day, during the day when classes let out, during Weidner & Kress Center events, etc. Other future roundabouts could be used, I think, at the two main UWGB entrances on Nicolet.

I noticed in the Midwest Regional Rail System report that an extension of Amtrak from Milwaukee to Green Bay was considered a ten-year project, including planning. Those planning efforts, I believe, are now under way. I wonder if the project potentially could be expedited, considering we now have a new incoming administration, a new Congress and anticipated new national priorities to emerge on energy use, transportation and the environment. Stay tuned.

Someone mentioned something about hwy 26 from Oshkosh to hwy 151. My source within the DOT told me they are already planning on expanding this hwy in the future (not within 10 years). They will bypass that horrible speed trap they call Rosendale ha ha!

I got my tax bill. Since 2002 when I bought my current home, I have not seen a a tax increase, but this year was 2% or so. I know it is not really a hike, but when you have friends in the burbs like Bellevue telling you that their tax bill went down 11% and also their water bill. wth... just happens to be the year when the stupid city gets sue for millions, although it has nothing to do with that.



Paris - Arc De Triomphe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lay8aZlsbB0&feature=related

At first I thought it was the De Pere roundabout, jk. Someone told me from Paris that their auto insurance will not cover an accident in the big roundabouts there. They cannot prove who has the right of way, etc.

I got my tax bill. Since 2002 when I bought my current home, I have not seen a a tax increase, but this year was 2% or so. I know it is not really a hike, but when you have friends in the burbs like Bellevue telling you that their tax bill went down 11% and also their water bill. wth... just happens to be the year when the stupid city gets sue for millions, although it has nothing to do with that.

You can't compare a city tax rate with full services to a place like Bellevue, who resists paying for dedicated police service. Is that a place you want to raise your children?

And FYI, De Pere taxes are no picnic either.

also...you also said that you haven't seen a tax increase 2002 when you bought your house. how much has your suburnan friends' taxes gone up over the past 6 years? it seems to me that 2% over six years is REALLY good

It is not even worth my time to write a rebuttal to those posts. lol

You can't compare a city tax rate with full services to a place like Bellevue, who resists paying for dedicated police service. Is that a place you want to raise your children?



Are you saying people might not want to raise their children in Bellevue? If so, what's the reason...besides no "dedicated" police force?

Well, I'll be honest. I rarely use 41 and when I do traffic is alway flowing, In fact most of the time I would consider the traffic light. If you think the traffic around here is bad I suggest you get out a little and explore, Hell you only need to go to Chicago. Most of the freeways/tollways there are 2 lanes each direction. I fully agree with the safty expansion of 141 - 41 to the north and 29 to the west but capacity expansion in GB is silly, peak traffic cant last for more then a few hours a day, we could do some major reconfigurations of most of the interchanges and that would solve a bunch of the gridlock. All expansion does is allow for people to live further and further away from the commerce center, creating larger gaps in this society and become more dependant on their car. All those people that live in Coleman that drive to green bay for work must love the highway but if and when gas prices spike again they are going to be the same people complaning about how much they spend on gas. I realize that I won't convince anyone one way or another. Just my 2c

btw I really like the single lane round-a-bout but the 2 lane ones are almost impossible to walk across, not at all improving the liveability of an area.

here is the link (http://www.dot.wi.gov/projects/us41expansion/brown-int.htm) to the 41 plans.


I thought I'd wait it out & see if anyone else replied, but no one hit on what I wanted to say, so here goes..

I understand what you're saying, & I don't necessarily disagree, but you're not going to change people overnight. Regardless of whether people SHOULD choose to live in Coleman & drive to GB, they're going to do it. 41 was originally designed for something like 125,000 cars per day & is now over that number. There is a high concentration of traffic at certain times of the day & is fairly slow the rest of the day, but that doesn't matter. Once a road is taking more traffic than it was designed for, it becomes a safety issue & needs to be addressed.

We live on the west side of GB & my wife works in depere, so she drives 41 around 7am & 5pm, the busiest times of the day. Almost every day she says that traffic comes to a complete stop in certain areas, & she sees accidents & near-accidents very often.

I am 110% for a regional rail system & I guarantee I would use it (travel between GB & MKE very often), but it's not a cure-all.

^^ Jerkylips, do you mean 12,500 cars? cause 125,000 is an 8-lane freeway. Also, the reason why there are minor problems on 41 are because of the interchanges, sight distances...41 could be fixed with better interchanges, sight distances and auxilary lanes. Some ramps should be 2 lanes as well, but the mainline of 41 could stay 2 lanes each way.

I thought I'd wait it out & see if anyone else replied, but no one hit on what I wanted to say, so here goes..

I understand what you're saying, & I don't necessarily disagree, but you're not going to change people overnight. Regardless of whether people SHOULD choose to live in Coleman & drive to GB, they're going to do it. 41 was originally designed for something like 125,000 cars per day & is now over that number. There is a high concentration of traffic at certain times of the day & is fairly slow the rest of the day, but that doesn't matter. Once a road is taking more traffic than it was designed for, it becomes a safety issue & needs to be addressed.

We live on the west side of GB & my wife works in depere, so she drives 41 around 7am & 5pm, the busiest times of the day. Almost every day she says that traffic comes to a complete stop in certain areas, & she sees accidents & near-accidents very often.

I am 110% for a regional rail system & I guarantee I would use it (travel between GB & MKE very often), but it's not a cure-all.

I was looking for some traffic numbers but decided that was to hard to play the numbers game. Link (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/travel/counts/docs/brown/brown-us41detail2006.pdf) here for 41. These numbers are dated but were not really that old, USH 41 was in the 70000's. Whatever the number are I seem to think that we would alway choose the easiest and fastest way. If I thought that 41 was that bad I would take Ashland or Oneida, or if I had a flexible schedule go into work at 6:30 and leave a little earlier. Its not like there are not options to spending millions on something that become inconvienant for a few hours a day. And when you start to make it really easy more people will use it.

I am really a huge fan of tolls and I think we should just go ahead and change the state law and install peak tolls where ever we have congestion. I would say put it right between 172 and Lombardi. We could charge $2 between 7am and 10am and 3 pm to 6pm and the rest of the time it could be $.5. The people that would find it usefull to be able to travel the toll road would do so and the others would find a alt. route.

Boy what discussion a skyscraper forum can create...

^^ Jerkylips, do you mean 12,500 cars? cause 125,000 is an 8-lane freeway. Also, the reason why there are minor problems on 41 are because of the interchanges, sight distances...41 could be fixed with better interchanges, sight distances and auxilary lanes. Some ramps should be 2 lanes as well, but the mainline of 41 could stay 2 lanes each way.


hmmm...not sure. I'm positive that I saw the 125,000 number not too long ago but I'm not positive where I saw it. Maybe I'm thinking of it in different context.

Regardless, the point I was making was that the highway is right now at capacity. I agree that different interchanges, on-ramps, off ramps, etc., would make a huge difference, but I think it's also important to remember that the upgrades are not to meet today's needs but to meet the needs of the next 10-20-30 years too. One article I read showed that traffic on 41 has been increasing something like 30% in the past 8 years. If it continues at anywhere near that pace, we're going to need what they're building before too long.

The City of Green Bay is looking for comments on its Military Avenue project. Seems to me there will need to be an effort to support the proposal or the Ald. John Vander Leest’s of the world, with all due respect, could rule the day, and they’d essentially end up just repaving the six-lane elephant they’ve got. Then, I think, a golden opportunity to redo the street in a smart, attractive, practical and unique way that could encourage commercial investment, new development and more shoppers may well have been lost. Just my opinion.

Green Bay seeks input on Military Avenue road work

BY RICHARD RYMAN • RRYMAN@GREENBAYPRESSGAZETTE.COM • DECEMBER 15, 2008

If you have opinions on the planned reconstruction of Military Avenue, the city of Green Bay would like to hear them.

Written comments will be accepted until Dec. 24.

Information and a comment form can be found online at www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/MilitaryAve/index.html.

Comments can be mailed to Steve Grenier at StevenGr@ci.green-bay.wi.us, or mailed to City of Green Bay Department of Public Works, Attention: Steve Grenier, 100 N. Jefferson St., Room 300, Green Bay, WI 54301

Military Avenue will be reconstructed from near Langlade Avenue to Dousman Street.

At a public meeting Dec. 10, the city offered three possible design options, including an improved six-lane street, a four-lane street or a street with roundabouts at eight intersections.

Construction is planned for 2010.

I am really a huge fan of tolls and I think we should just go ahead and change the state law and install peak tolls where ever we have congestion. I would say put it right between 172 and Lombardi. We could charge $2 between 7am and 10am and 3 pm to 6pm and the rest of the time it could be $.5. The people that would find it usefull to be able to travel the toll road would do so and the others would find a alt. route.


If you look at the projected figure for traffic, they project near the 125,000 cars a day, but that's a few years out. I think the DOT should be commended for having the foresight to stay somewhat on top of the congestion problem. There is a congesting problem now & it's only going to get worse.

GBsurveyor, I'm trying to figure out if you are sarcastically recommending a toll system. I'm tending to believe you are dead serious. Despite being told I need to get out more, I travel quite a bit & see what the tolls in Illi-noise have led to. They are pretty much the worse roads I travel on my trip. Nothing worse then pulling over & having to toss some coins in a bin, & now it's upgraded so you have to actually hand the cash to a person & pay double without a I-pass. I finally got a I-pass for the last trip.

The people are paying for the road projects through a gas tax, vehicle registrations & drivers licenses. It's not a grossly subsidized project like any rail system would be. I'm not against rail/Amtrak. But don't shove it down everyone else's throat by making their life miserable & unsafe. Leave early for work, pay a toll...that's messed up. Like someone else mentioned. If you want to live like that, move to Chicago. I think people have the right to expect a safe drive to work, we're paying for it.

The 41 project is a 14 mile stretch where the most congestion is. Here is a link to the info on the project.

http://http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/us41expansion/brown-index.htm

I was looking for some traffic numbers but decided that was to hard to play the numbers game. Link (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/travel/counts/docs/brown/brown-us41detail2006.pdf) here for 41. These numbers are dated but were not really that old, USH 41 was in the 70000's. Whatever the number are I seem to think that we would alway choose the easiest and fastest way. If I thought that 41 was that bad I would take Ashland or Oneida, or if I had a flexible schedule go into work at 6:30 and leave a little earlier. Its not like there are not options to spending millions on something that become inconvienant for a few hours a day. And when you start to make it really easy more people will use it.

I am really a huge fan of tolls and I think we should just go ahead and change the state law and install peak tolls where ever we have congestion. I would say put it right between 172 and Lombardi. We could charge $2 between 7am and 10am and 3 pm to 6pm and the rest of the time it could be $.5. The people that would find it usefull to be able to travel the toll road would do so and the others would find a alt. route.

I think a lot of us, myself included, use our freeways as if they were high-speed local roads. I can't tell you how often I've seen people merge onto 41 from Mason, say, and then exit a few seconds later onto Lombardi.

It might save a minute or two here and there, but it will be interesting to see if that behavior continues as the freeways become more congested. Or, as tollbooths are constructed. :wink2: I wonder how a major change in this behavior -- more local drivers sticking to the local streets -- would impact traffic patterns in Green Bay.

I know that I would never even consider hopping onto a freeway for just an exit or two in Chicago or Minneapolis.

ah, jerkylips, i see you probably meant that the forecasted daily traffic counts would be roughly 121,000 by the year 2035 at peak times (65,000 to 121,000).

About those jumpers (drivers who enter the freeway then exit at the exact next exit), thats where auxilary lanes would help to keep them in there place.

ah, jerkylips, i see you probably meant that the forecasted daily traffic counts would be roughly 121,000 by the year 2035 at peak times (65,000 to 121,000).

About those jumpers (drivers who enter the freeway then exit at the exact next exit), thats where auxilary lanes would help to keep them in there place.

When 51 in Wausau was rebuilt they added the frontage road(s) and aux lanes to help take the strain off the mainline and also to provide an option for local traffic along with completely rebuiling the interchanges.

Don't get me wrong. I know 41 is busy and is in need of major improvement, in fact real estate process is well on its way and its going to happen. I also know that we don't like the traffic. I love the freedom to drive and dont expect anyone to give it up without a fight. I seem to think that I make a decent enough income that I will be able to afford to drive even when the gas prices sky rocket again, but not everyone is in that same position. What I dont like is the fact that we have become so dependant on our cars and we are basically forced to have them to function. Have any of you guys tried to navigate the GB Metro? Maybe you should make a point to try it. It can take almost an hour to go from UWGB to DePere and some routes only run on the hour. There are some seroius issues that affect all of us in some way or the other, and it would be best to deal with them before they become a real problem.

I think I will shut up now:cheers:

I think a lot of us, myself included, use our freeways as if they were high-speed local roads. I can't tell you how often I've seen people merge onto 41 from Mason, say, and then exit a few seconds later onto Lombardi.

It might save a minute or two here and there, but it will be interesting to see if that behavior continues as the freeways become more congested. Or, as tollbooths are constructed. :wink2: I wonder how a major change in this behavior -- more local drivers sticking to the local streets -- would impact traffic patterns in Green Bay.

I know that I would never even consider hopping onto a freeway for just an exit or two in Chicago or Minneapolis.

There are a few solutions to that problem. The first one you mentioned is self-correcting as congestion increases. Secondly, auxiliary lanes will help those people just going one exit, but will also become problematic as congestion increases on the freeway. A third solution is ramp meters. They're not planned for US 41 at this point, but I think it is only a matter of time. Milwaukee has had them for decades, and Madison just got its first ones a few years ago. Green Bay & Appleton will see them within 20 years.

I am really a huge fan of tolls and I think we should just go ahead and change the state law and install peak tolls where ever we have congestion. I would say put it right between 172 and Lombardi. We could charge $2 between 7am and 10am and 3 pm to 6pm and the rest of the time it could be $.5. The people that would find it usefull to be able to travel the toll road would do so and the others would find a alt. route.
I could agree with tolls also as long as only cars and trucks with IL or MN on the plates have to pay. :lol: Anything to keep the FISH from destroying Door County even more.

All right, I have to respond, rather lengthily but also with quite a bit of research and thought behind the matter:

Building more highways and widening existing roads does little to reduce traffic; in fact, it increases traffic. This revelation is so counterintuitive that it needs repeating: Adding lanes makes traffic worse.

This paradox was suspected as early in 1942 by Robert Moses, who noticed the highways he had built in 1939 were somehow generating greater traffic problems than had existed previously. Since then, the phenomenon has been well-documented: Many traffic studies with real, hard, observational data concluded that adding lanes simply causes people to drive more--a lot more. The general concept as applied to other types of economics was actually defined much earlier (see "Jevon's Paradox" that I cited in an earlier post...Google it).

Several studies have shown that for every 10 percent increase in roadway cppacity, traffic increased 9 percent within four years' time (sidenote to read into: terms for most politicians are four years or less).

For whatever reason, Green Bay even as a small metro, people spend way too much time in cars. It's not as bad here as cities like Atlanta or Kansas City , but these other cities tried the same thing: in attempts to ward off traffic problems by building more highways, people ended up spending even more time in traffic. They didn't solve the problem by adding lanes, they made it worse. It's called induced traffic.

Induced traffic can be explained like this:
Trying to cure traffic congestion by adding more capacity is like trying to solve obesity by loosening your belt.

Increased traffic capacity makes longer commutes less burdensome, and as a result, people are willing to live farther and farther from their workplace. Example: Because highway 41 has a pretty good capacity, many people who work in Green Bay are willing to live in Coleman or Appleton. As increasing numbers of people make similiar decisions, the commute grows crowded, commuters clamor for additional lanes, and the cycle repeats itself and is compounded.

Paradoxically, the road builders are never proved wrong; in fact they are always proved right: "you see" they say, "I told you that traffic was coming".

The ramifications are that we spend billions of dollars on road building while accomplished only a couple things: we've increased traffic and increased the amount of time people spend in cars each day. Americans now drive twice as many mile sper year as they did just 20 years ago. Building new lanes is little more than temporary relief, but it is a huge financial burden in that it costs millions, billions even. And not just dollars. Lives.

Which is subsidized more, roads or transit?

There are so many hidden costs of driving that are paid by everyone. Increased traffic capacity, which in turn leads to more traffic, because people decide to live farther distances from work, shopping, etc.

How does this increase govnerment subsity? Well for one our use of oil. All of this increase driving means we are now heavily dependent on oil and other foreign goods. So looking at the bigger picture, our government expends billions more to secure oil fields and other resources that are part of the "non-negotiable American way of life". Highway 41 might be just a small part of this, but it's an example of what we Americans have done everywhere and it's coming around to bite us all in the asses big time. Think this financial mess is bad? Wait until the oil shock hits us. It's getting to the point of ridiculousness, the extent to which we cling to this unsustainable way of life.

Our incessant driving has cost us in so many other ways. Fact of the matter is that road building and driving is heavily subsidized, at least indirectly, let's not forget that. How about our low-density, far-flung patterns of settlement? Think about the costly environmental impacts this has created. Don't give a rats ass about the environment? OK, then just consider the amount of new utilities, schools, police, fire and other services that must be run way out to service these sprawly settlements. Isn't that a subsidy?

I'm personally not perfect about this either, I drive, I live in the city but too far out. I'm a hypocrite, I suppose. But I'm only recently becoming more aware of these all-to-often "unseen" facts, and as a result I'm starting to advocate for things like rail. And I'd love to move back into the city center (I've spent most of my life in city centers, by the way) but now I owe more on my cookie-cutter home than it's worth, I won't be able to sell it so I'll have to just stick it out).

Passenger Rail is not the "end all" but it's a sensible, easy, convenient start that oh--by the way, creates a lot of new jobs for people. It can more efficiently and more cheaply move a certain significant percentage of people between the major manufacturing and population centers in Wisconsin, namely the Fox Cities and Milwaukee and Chicago. Trucks require 15 times the amount of fuel than rail to move an equivalent load, and it takes 15 lanes of highway to move as many peple as one lane of track. Granted, again, not everyone will choose rail but as we're seeing, a significant percentage will, thus reducing at least somewhat the load on highways. If rail can be made as or more convienient than driving, I think it stands a good chance to be more popular than what most people think.

Sorry for the sermon, I just had to get this all off my chest, after reading the recent discussion.


**Sources include: The American Transportation Mess, a chapter in the book, "Suburban Nation: The rise of sprawl and the decline of the American Dream."

Not to change the topic, but has the construction on the Cherry St. ramp retail finished and if so has any business started to move in yet?

I suggest this type of rail if we are going to do rail Green Bay to Appleton

http://www.rail-videos.net/video/view.php?id=926

Not to change the topic, but has the construction on the Cherry St. ramp retail finished and if so has any business started to move in yet?

The exterior appears finished. All the fencing has been taken down & a few dumpsters remain. No sign any business is moving in yet. There are qutie a bit of "for lease" signs in the windows.

Wow, sometimes I re-read the stuff I blather about here and I think, holy crap, I must sound like the biggest douchebag on here. I don't think the forum / blog conveys personality well.....I'm actually pretty laid back, for the most part....

Hopefully we'll actually find a time to get together again, I had fun on the "Bellin Building tour" last year. We've tried getting together since but it didn't pan out.

Perhaps after the holidays?

P.S. that 350 mph train kicked ass. But I'd be happy with 60 mph, to start with at least.

I fully understand highway 41 is at a full capacity, and thus experiences a steady flow of traffic during off-peak, however the ultimate goal is to provide alternatives (rails), thats why i think an expansion should wait, and rails should be implemented first, not only to provide relief and an alternative during construction, but to see what kind of an effect rail transit would have on 41, then see what enhancements would be needed to 41, if any.

GB-Appleton rail transit - someone mentioned Amtrak would be the provider to a GB to appleton line... is that true? i think that would only be true if the GB to appleton line would be the beginning of a GB to milwaukee line. It almost sounds like a GB to appleton line would be a single entity.

Harrisburg, PA - i compared harrisburg, PA to GB a while back about each CBD's, now i can compare the transportation systems. Harrisburg has an Amtrak line to Philadelphia 2 hours to the east (milwaukee is 2 hours to the south). This line has just been upgraded to highspeed and thus the trains are now actually running at 110mph. This line is one of Amtraks only electrified lines. I believe Puant pointed out that the Harrisburg metro area and the Fox valley are really quite similar in population.

Here ya go, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw4zn-qw1oM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUVD1rSFpEA&feature=related

GB-Appleton rail transit - someone mentioned Amtrak would be the provider to a GB to appleton line... is that true? i think that would only be true if the GB to appleton line would be the beginning of a GB to milwaukee line. It almost sounds like a GB to appleton line would be a single entity.

No need to think about a Green Bay to Appleton rail line. There's a zero percent chance that is going to happen. The mayor either dreamt it up or was in fact referring the the actually studied Green Bay to Milwaukee rail line, which goes through Appleton. A GB-APL only train wouldn't make any sense, from connectivity to the national system, to ridership levels. Nobody at the State or National levels would approve such a thing, which would pretty much kill the neccesary funding.

Yes, WHEN the GB-MKE rail line occurs, it will be run by Amtrak. And just like the MKE-MAD line, it will open all at once.

I hate to bring back the stadium topic, but I found some possibly relevant information regarding costs:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/36284284.html

Some guy was going to build a stadium in Frame Park in Waukesha and use it to host a Northwoods League team. There is already a diamond there, but no buildings. The cost would have been a little over $2 million. So I think that is a good starting point for estimating the cost of a new Bullfrogs stadium.

The cancellation or postponement of the new baseball stadium in Waukesha is a shocker. That project had been building for more than half a year with considerable debate and public attention.

The owner of the Waukesha team is a minority owner in the Green Bay Bullfrogs. His inability to finance now his new stadium there suggests to me any new Bullfrogs stadium will not happen in the near future. The Waukesha situation sounds like a victim of the recession. Banks aren’t lending money.

The city of Waukesha was not bringing any money to the table. It remains to been seen if the city of Green Bay wants a baseball stadium enough to assist the Bullfrogs in making it happen or if they will expect the Bullfrogs majority owner and a possible investment group to come up with all the dollars themselves. Every situation is different. In the case of the Brownfield (now a Greenfield) site here in Green Bay...Will the city at least donate or offer the property to the Bullfrogs at a very inexpensive cost since they own it..??

The newspaper link is also not accurate with stating the stadium in Waukesha would be for 6000. The proposed additions to Frame Park called for around 1700 fixed seats and a Fan Deck.

Well this will be interesting to see how it shakes out. On one hand, the "brownfield" (Greenfield) site has sat vacant and unused for what? 15+ years?

That might seem to indicate the city, who does own the site now, might be willing to make a really good deal to the Bullfrogs in order to get the stadium on the site, which in turn would enliven the area and perhaps stimulate other developments and tax revenues.

On the other hand, Nativist mentioned someting about rumoured interest in the site from other developers for other uses. So will the city hold out on the hope they'd get more for the site than what the Bullfrogs woudl offer?

If history is any indication, the city will hold out on hopes for more, and thus nothing will happen because the other supposed developments will not pan out..........Hate to be negative, but I have little reason to think any sort of "deal" will be made..."big picture" reasoning does not occur very often in this city.

I would just like to say, maybe we should give ourselves a pat on the back for making the Green Bay Development News thread one of the most replied/viewed (if not the most) threads under the United States section. Congratulations everyone, suppose this could be some sort of "Merry Christmas" to the contributors.

Unfortunately i cant think of anything new to talk about...:ohno:

Well i guess i will just say I hope Obama's infrastructure plan gets passed when he takes office. All of the jobs that plan will produce will be excellent. Some people say a new stimulus package should go directly to the citizens...well if that would happen, there is no guarantee that they will spend the money to help stimulate the economy. The root of the problem is the loss of JOBS. Also, if money is sent to people that just lost there jobs, or are going to lose them, how does that money help FIND jobs? It doesnt, it just buys time.

^^ I'll also add that an infrastructure stimulus leaves a durable legacy that will benefit the economy in the longer term, whereas a rebate check provides one short term boost and then it's gone.

I would just like to say, maybe we should give ourselves a pat on the back for making the Green Bay Development News thread one of the most replied/viewed (if not the most) threads under the United States section. Congratulations everyone, suppose this could be some sort of "Merry Christmas" to the contributors.

Unfortunately i cant think of anything new to talk about...:ohno:

Well i guess i will just say I hope Obama's infrastructure plan gets passed when he takes office. All of the jobs that plan will produce will be excellent. Some people say a new stimulus package should go directly to the citizens...well if that would happen, there is no guarantee that they will spend the money to help stimulate the economy. The root of the problem is the loss of JOBS. Also, if money is sent to people that just lost there jobs, or are going to lose them, how does that money help FIND jobs? It doesnt, it just buys time.


I thought that rebate check was a horrible idea to begin with.. Not that I wouldn't/didn't take it, but come on. "hey, you just lost your job--now here's $600 so you can go buy yourself a plasma tv"? Most of the money that was actually spent as intended, I'd be willing to bet, was spent on product made overseas anyway.

Of course now people are complaining about Obama's plan - "we're going to get out of debt by spending more money?" I love that short-sighted view, probably from the same people that were thrilled to get their "free tv" from bush. ugh...

I'm reading that bush passed the bailout for the auto industry - it will be interesting how the market reacts to that...

Of course now people are complaining about Obama's plan - "we're going to get out of debt by spending more money?" I love that short-sighted view, probably from the same people that were thrilled to get their "free tv" from bush. ugh...


Once again, we are going down a path in this forum that we should avoid. Jerky, since you seemed concerned, I am enjoying my plasma! :) People are allowed to complain about the supreme obama right? Or is he off limits? Last I checked, money doesn't grow on trees. We need to get our budgets under control & just can't continue to spend money on pet projects. Any stimulus checks or large spending projects aren't going to snap the economy out of the recession. Last I checked, democrats have controlled the govt for the past few years. Now they have the trump card with obama. It will be interesting to see who they blame for all the problems once Bush is gone.

Since we want to start talking politics, how about the Iraq war?
(Please no!)

Once again, we are going down a path in this forum that we should avoid. Jerky, since you seemed concerned, I am enjoying my plasma! :) People are allowed to complain about the supreme obama right? Or is he off limits? Last I checked, money doesn't grow on trees. We need to get our budgets under control & just can't continue to spend money on pet projects. Any stimulus checks or large spending projects aren't going to snap the economy out of the recession. Last I checked, democrats have controlled the govt for the past few years. Now they have the trump card with obama. It will be interesting to see who they blame for all the problems once Bush is gone.

Since we want to start talking politics, how about the Iraq war?
(Please no!)

fair enough about the political discussions, but I think you missed my point. I just think it's funny that the people complaining about he money being spent on infrastructure are probably the same ones that were all for the "rebate" checks a couple years ago because they don't see that building our infrastructure will benefit all of us more than sending a check. That's all...

fair enough about the political discussions, but I think you missed my point. I just think it's funny that the people complaining about he money being spent on infrastructure are probably the same ones that were all for the "rebate" checks a couple years ago because they don't see that building our infrastructure will benefit all of us more than sending a check. That's all...

I see your point....and it is a good one. Thanks

Uh huh. I can feel my partisan hackles rising... must respond... must tell you why you're wrong... must resist... must resist. Phwew, that was close. Quick, Puant, change the subject!

Uh huh. I can feel my partisan hackles rising... must respond... must tell you why you're wrong... must resist... must resist. Phwew, that was close. Quick, Puant, change the subject!

Funny!

Here's something I found in this month's ThisOldHouse magazine, kind of by surprise:

About 40 U.S. cities are looking to build new streetcar or light-rail lines, and if past is prologue these places may one day see a serious spike in prices for nearby houses and real estate. In Charlotte, North Carolina, a trolley and light-rail line has helped lift local property values by a whopping 90 percent in the past decade, while in Seattele, Realter Reba Haas says houses along a planned extension to the city's light-rail line have been commanding as much as $200,000 moer than they were before the project was approved. Now that's a ticket to ride.

I really believe a 2-mile trolley loop around the core of Green Bay (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2008/09/what-if-green-bay-invested-5-million-on.html), if tied into the bus system and the regional passenger rail depot, could be a real boon for this city. It would enable infill of parking lots, much higher density and in Green Bay I think something like a frequent trolley is especially needed because of the width of the Fox River and how it divides key parts of the downtown (East side and Broadway).

Sorry for harping again but I believe this kind of stuff is key to helping achieve what we all want. I may have some more to say on infrastructure in the future but I don't want it to get all political. How do things like infrastructure get political sides to them anyway?

From the What's Up Downtown newsletter:

Exciting news that Flats on the Fox is 92% leased.

Another new residential building downtown filled up almost immediately, even though the adjacent parcels look like Baghdad after Shock and Awe.

Isn't this more evidence that there is even more demand for residential in the downtown? I hope so!

^^ thats good news puant...The population of downtown will only go up.

Vintage trolley - I propose that the median of Military Ave could be used for a vintage trolley if the road is reduced to 2 lanes each way. I think its perfect right of way with out taking any other right of way, and it would help make that corridor look much more pleasing. Not only that, but why not a vintage trolley, when GB is a very historic city, from the Packers to the extremely early founding back in the 1600's (was it 1600's?).

From the What's Up Downtown newsletter:

Exciting news that Flats on the Fox is 92% leased.

Another new residential building downtown filled up almost immediately, even though the adjacent parcels look like Baghdad after Shock and Awe.

Isn't this more evidence that there is even more demand for residential in the downtown? I hope so!

That's great news. I guess the retail/office/commercial space is on a lot slower pace. Maybe they should convert some more of the space to residentital.


Disregard that...I was thinking they were talking about the watermark project. I guess it's still good news....

Well if I had any money at all and the time to do it.....I still have thoughts of converting this building (http://picasaweb.google.com/gBayPacker/SchauerSchumacherBuilding#) into loft apartments. The 1st floor could be some sort of book / coffee store or something. But I have no money and I'm not "risk-oblivious" so it's up to one of you...

^^ BLEH, "formerly a funeral home," no thanks - gotta be haunted, id rather ride a haunted vintage trolley than live in an old funeral home...sorry, not me

Lenghthy, sorry but this is something I just read today from the Lincoln Institute of Land Policy on infrastructure spending. I think it's relevant in this discussion:

Infrastructure spending is high on the current
U.S. policy agenda for a number of reasons.

First, recent dramatic failures have highlighted
the harmful effects of poor maintenance and
age-related deterioration on infrastructure
facilities.

Second, infrastructure investment
is a candidate to stimulate the economy in the
current recession. Third, enhancing infrastructure
is crucial to long-term economic competitiveness
and environmental sustainability.

Finally, infrastructure investments are an important determinant
of urban form, spatial development, and land prices.

But what is infrastructure? One common definition includes
all transport systems (road, transit, rail, air, water); all networked
utilities (power, pipelines, water supply, sanitation, telecommunications);
irrigation and flood control; and pollution control
and waste disposal. It excludes schools, hospitals, and
other public facilities.

International comparisons using this definition show that
countries spend an average of 4 percent of GDP on infrastructure,
and that this share increases in step with economic
growth when annual growth rises above average rates of 2
to 3 percent.

Accordingly, for China to sustain its growth
rate of 10 percent requires an annual infrastructure investment
share of similar magnitude.

Based on data compiled by
the Congressional Budget Office, in 2004 the United States
public and private investment in infrastructure (as defined
here) was $302.5 billion, or only 2.6 percent of GDP, a share
that seems to have varied little since the early 1980s.

While U.S. spending on infrastructure has been low compared
to other countries, new investment cannot just be
turned up, like water from a faucet. Efficient spending must
be directed to specific projects that benefit the economy
over the long term and produce valued services that reduce
the costs of production, goods movement, congestion, ill
health, urban development, and economic growth.

The Congressional Budget Office reports that estimates
from other agencies indicate an additional $103.5 billion of
annual infrastructure spending (in 2004 dollars) can be justified
in economic terms. These amounts include funds for
maintenance (following a “fix-it-first” policy), funds to expand
transport systems, and funds to achieve existing environmental
standards (particularly for rivers and waterways).

This spending would raise the GDP share
for infrastructure to about 3.5 percent.
Existing estimates of the economic impacts
of infrastructure investment—on the
order of 30,000 to 40,000 jobs per $1 billion
of infrastructure investment and long-term
growth in GDP—are based on the premise
that infrastructure investment will be efficient
and productive. If it is not, the multiplier effects
can be smaller and the investment can have
longer-term negative effects.

For example, to combat its deep recession in the 1990s,
Japan embarked on a large infrastructure investment program
that raised the public sector’s share of total investment
from 21 to 29 percent. This investment did little to stimulate
growth, however, and the resulting increase in national
debt raised debt-servicing costs greatly. Because increased
infrastructure investment in the United States also will be
debt-financed, it is very important in terms of future U.S.
growth for new funds to be spent productively.

One of the major challenges facing increased infrastructure
investment in the United States is that projects planned
in the past and ready for immediate implementation may
now be out of date. The U.S. economy faces significant new
challenges, including adapting to higher energy costs, reducing
carbon emissions, increasing alternative energy
capacity, and mitigating the effects of global climate change
affecting coastal areas and water availability.

These changes mean that business as usual is no longer
sufficient. Infrastructure investments must take account of
the need to increase urban densities, improve transit access,
coordinate transport and environmental investments across
metropolitan areas within emerging megaregions, and foster
green technologies in infrastructure itself.

Better management of existing infrastructure may be an alternative to some
new investments. For example, the Federal Highway Administration
estimates that broader use of congestion tolls could
reduce highway investments by up to $20 billion per year.
Spending on infrastructure clearly can be increased, but
these resources must be allocated to carefully selected
projects that produce long-term benefits in the rapidly
changing economic and environmental circumstances of
the twenty-first century.

For the rest of this magazine, with lots more on infrastructure, click here (http://sites.google.com/site/compostsite/) and then click the "Land Lines" link.

^^ BLEH, "formerly a funeral home," no thanks - gotta be haunted, id rather ride a haunted vintage trolley than live in an old funeral home...sorry, not me

I've lived in a former funeral home or two. No big deal. Some of the ghosts are a lot of fun!!

I really believe a 2-mile trolley loop around the core of Green Bay (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2008/09/what-if-green-bay-invested-5-million-on.html), if tied into the bus system and the regional passenger rail depot, could be a real boon for this city. It would enable infill of parking lots, much higher density and in Green Bay I think something like a frequent trolley is especially needed because of the width of the Fox River and how it divides key parts of the downtown (East side and Broadway).

Danillo and I had an email conversation a few weeks ago about how great trolleys would be for Green Bay. After a bit of discussion, we came up with some pretty great (in our humble opinions!) routes. I was going to make a map, but I'm too lazy so I'll just describe them.

Loop 1: Starts at the train depot, at the corner of Hubbard and Broadway. South to Walnut. East on Walnut all the way to Baird (Joannes Stadium). North to Main. West to Webster. North to University. West to Monroe/Main. West to Broadway, and then south to the train depot. This loop hits all the major destinations downtown within 2-3 blocks. Train depot, Bellin Building/Meyer Theatre, Government complex, Joannes Stadium, Main St business district, Transit Center, Convention Center. One great thing is that it also traverses a large residential area, which is key to "expanding" downtown. This would serve to raise property values in that area too. Eventually, this loop could be expanded to go north on Broadway, west on Mather, south on Gray, and then back east on Shawano/Walnut. This would encompass another large residential area, connect Fisk Park, and give West HS the same connection that East HS would have.

Loop 2: Starts at the Convention Center. South on Adams, east on Porlier, north on Webster, east on University, north on Clay (there is some RR ROW there), north on East Shore to Bay Beach, then back south on Webster, west on University/Monroe, west on Main, then south again on Adams. This loop could also be split into two; north and south of the Transit Center. This loop serves the nice Astor neighborhood as well as the south downtown area. Serves the Hospital complex, Transit Center, Convention Center, and Bay Beach. Lots of residential, which will all go up in value.

The rail lines would all be double track (except for north of University) so there could be service in both directions. Headway would have to be 10 minutes max.

^^ I like them, cool ideas! I whipped up a little Google Map of your loops (click here (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=105417852065100541309.00045e7ad1026e5963a0c&ll=44.51897,-87.999716&spn=0.044186,0.063944&z=14), I hope this map link works).

Your Loop 1 is about 4 miles and the loop 2 is about 7 miles. As great as it would be to tie in even more, I guess I was thinking a little bit of cost at least to start with in keeping to a 2 mile loop. However it is important to tie in the transit center and more stuff. Also I wonder how well it would work to run a streetcar down a busy street like Webster and Monroe---would there be too many conflicts with drivers?

Nice work! With so manyh other cities doing this maybe it's not as crazy as we think???

Also would we want to tie in the Lambeau Field / Resch / Oneida St with a spur or loop of some kind - I think so. More cost yeah but it would also tie in some more residential areas alnong the route, so that the stadium spur would bring commuters in daily to work & stuff.

Uh huh. I can feel my partisan hackles rising... must respond... must tell you why you're wrong... must resist... must resist. Phwew, that was close. Quick, Puant, change the subject!

Let's see, I hit on infrastructure, infrastructure, and more infrastructure...threw in references to Shock & Awe and ghosts... I do what I can to stay fair & balanced... I don't know what any of this means.....garbage posts like mine are why our little Green Bay thread has grown so large.....

Obviously Flats on the Fox already being 92% leased is a positive sign for downtown residential. My question is, what led to this being leased so quickly? Being on the river? Being downtown? Or a combination of both? I would like to think just being downtown had some affect on people's decisions to rent there. That leads to this question. Would it be unreasonable to think that if they parceled off the mall site that one maybe even two 10+ story apartment buildings could be built and be filled somewhat easily?

Obviously Flats on the Fox already being 92% leased is a positive sign for downtown residential. My question is, what led to this being leased so quickly? Being on the river? Being downtown? Or a combination of both? I would like to think just being downtown had some affect on people's decisions to rent there. That leads to this question. Would it be unreasonable to think that if they parceled off the mall site that one maybe even two 10+ story apartment buildings could be built and be filled somewhat easily?

don't forget that the rent prices are determined by income, so to a detree these would considered low income housing..

I don't think we want to overuse the apartment model... While I think apartment buildings have a place, I think there's no question that ownership really effects one's perception. We need people down there who feel that they have a stake there. I think what we need are condos priced similarly to the ones across from the Meyer, but maybe a little more modern. Many people have bought in that building, and I think there's a bigger market at middle income than there is at luxury income.

Last I checked, money doesn't grow on trees. We need to get our budgets under control & just can't continue to spend money on pet projects. Any stimulus checks or large spending projects aren't going to snap the economy out of the recession.

It’s vital we pay down the national debt, as we did during the last half of the ‘90s. But the time to do that is when economic times are good, not during a recession, a deep recession at that. As a broad range of economists agree, now’s the time for ample, responsible, useful, results-oriented federal stimulus with proper oversight, regulation and accountability. And no earmarks!

Despite all of the New Deal programs of the 1930s, what ultimately lifted us out of the Great Depression was an enormous amount of federal spending on the military in the late ‘30s and early ‘40s in advance of our entry into World War II, spending that continued in full force during the remainder of the war. That huge stimulus created much-needed jobs, incomes and confidence. Up until that point, as a number of economists have noted, a big problem in the '30s was not too much federal spending, but too little federal spending in a time of national economic crisis.

www.newsweek.com/id/174336

www.nytimes.com/2008/12/22/opinion/22krugman.html?_r=1

Nite Ryder said:

...I was thinking they were talking about the watermark project.

.... All too true........nothing happening there so far.......I read on the GB Redev. Auth. Minutes that to date there is only (1) signed up for a condo in the WaterMark project.....I'm still feeling kind of alone........I hope I live long enough....maybe I will end up buying accross from the Meyer but I want to be over the City Deck..........by the way.........are they really working on the pilings in this weather?.....I drive by and see that the Pile Driving Rigs have moved around in the ice from time to time....................I don't see anything on the City Deck Cam just Java!

Regarding the trolley loop that Kramerica outlined and Puant mapped:

Upon seeing the map, perhaps the line towards Bay Beach should head out along Irwin and back along Webster. That seems a better approach. At any rate, I think that's the least important leg.

The key with this, and why I think that if we ever do build a trolley we need to start with a line such as the Downtown/Joannes/Transit Center line is that it includes an important near-downtown neighborhood. These lines are designed to not only get people who live downtown out to many amenities, but they run through great, compact, walkable neighborhoods and would put thousands (if someone could figure out how many people would live within a 1/4 mile and 1/2 mile of these lines, that would be interesting) of people into a walkable/transit friendly living environment with downtown as the hub, not to mention a great collection of parks.

I for one believe that the key reason to improve the downtown is what it can do for the city as a whole. I believe that a limited system could do a great deal towards improving our near downtown neighborhoods. Obviously this is all a bit pie-in-the-sky right now, but if we start with HSR linking to the Valley and on to Chicago, and expand onto a system like this, you'd really have a major portion of the population who could live without using a car all that much if at all, and you'd have housing options within that area ranging from apartments and condos downtown, to the wide range of home sizes in near-downtown neighborhoods from small starter homes to huge mansions.

As an aside, I also don't think you'd HAVE to have railed trolleys. A system with nice stops (with signs telling the ETA of the next trolley) and sufficient service could do the trick with much lower initial costs. Still not cheap, but much less than laying all that track. Also, a bus route ran in a loop from the transit center, to the stadium area, to Bay Park, to downtown De Pere and back could be a nice supplement to this system that would connect people downtown to the major destinations in the area quickly. Anyway, that's my thinking.

Photo tour:

I have some thoughts of spending Friday downtown with my camera, so if anyone has any ideas on what they think would make a good subject, let me know and I'll try to incorporate that.

I took the liberty of puting Puant's trolley loop into perspective with my pc game Sim City 4. This first pic is an overview of the area. So far it is incomplete, with a population of only 30,000. I hope to create other peoples ideas as well, as i grow this city.
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/5750/nc1ko8.jpg


This next pic is where i will start this tour; a trolley stop along Madison st, before the line turns westward along Crooks st.
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8504/nc2eb7.jpg


He is the same area, zoomed out. Including a portion along Crooks st.
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5425/nc3li6.jpg


Here we are further down Crooks st, getting ready to head north onto Washington st.
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5948/nc4tr1.jpg


Here is the line along Washington st, with a stop at the corner of Washington and Doty st. The road at the top of this pic is Walnut/Shawano.
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/8206/nc5ld7.jpg


Here the line leaves washington to travel along Walnut/Shawano and crosses the Fox. I believe in Puant's plan he would have the line in the median...this game limits us in that area.
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/710/nc6db9.jpg


Here, the line is on the west side of the Fox, coming to a stop at the corner of Walnut/Shawano and Museum st (Museum place)
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/9295/nc8pv1.jpg

This concludes a first set of pics for technical issues. The second set will be posted shortly.

This first pic shows the line leaving the Walnut/Shawano st area and enters the median of Broadway (this is the only road we can do median trains in this game)
http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/1842/nc9me5.jpg


Here, the line is about half way done with Broadway, and includes a stop in the median of broadway.
http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/8021/nc10id6.jpg


This pic shows the intersection of Broadway and Dousman, and the trolley line leaving the median to get ready to parallel Dousman. Dont mind the all-way green light, people drive like that anyway
http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/3340/nc11be6.jpg


Here, the line is now paralleling Dousman with a trolley stop. Getting ready to head east across the Fox.
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/2789/nc12kj6.jpg


still getting ready to cross the Fox.
http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/4460/nc13tv4.jpg


Here, the line crossed the fox
http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/1724/nc14mp7.jpg

Im going to stop this tour here, again for technical reasons. Next post shortly

Here the line parallels Dousman/Main, and then heads south along Adams
http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/6739/nc15yu9.jpg


Here the line along Adams st. comes up to a trolley stop.
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/7817/nc16ka7.jpg


Here, you can see the line parallel Pine St (sorry bout nightfall) When i created the DT area, i left out a city block.
http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/8027/nc17aw7.jpg


Here is a close up of part of the line along Pine St
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/3286/nc18nz6.jpg


Here, the line begins to parallel Madison st again, though at the northern part of the line. with a trolley stop. A couple blocks south of here, would be where i started this tour.
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/9679/nc19qc2.jpg


Here is another overview, more of the Trolley line though...The entire line fit in this photo, if you can trace it.
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/9802/nc20ws9.jpg

the end

Very nice job! I love that game and played it for ridiculously long times when it first came out. And I'm still bummed that SC5 hasn't come out.

Nice "all way" green light too!

I've been slowly putting together a Madison city too, but it's not nearly as accurate as your Green Bay map. (It's hard to do diagonally-lined buildings in SC4.)

Thx araman0! I gotta ask, do you know how to record ingame actions (since you know about the game)? i would rather record a video of the train than post a bunch of pics to show it in action. Also, these pics have been converted to jpeg, so hope that helps

Trolley-if green bay would ever get a trolley, im pretty sure it would be a vintage type, and not this tram/light rail vehicle

Well thanks Jschmuck for posting, you obviously have some of the same obsessions as the rest of us!! Don't worry, that's a good thing!!

I think one of the benefits of the trolley/streetcar is that it would share the exisiting roadway and would not require another bridge, as your renders show.

Danillo:
I agree with your post about the trolley idea. It is realistic, I don't care what the detractors may say.

As far as your photo tour: One thing I've noticed is that there is a "skyline" view that is kind of cool, as you approach the downtown on Webster Ave south of I-43. Not sure if you'll be able to capture that on camera but it can look pretty cool. Another potential cool shot with a zoom lens is from the Huron Rd/Bay Settlemetn Rd over Hwy 54/57 bridge. If you want to do close-ups, can you do more along N Adams or Pine St? I love those areas, even if they are underutilized. Or how about Broadway on the west side? I'd love to see some unique perspective shots of the Egyptian Revival "Yellow Building" (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2008/03/egyptian-revival.html) (former car parts store) or other shots along Broadway..

very welcome puant...I meant to point out that the trolley would run in the median 100percent. But the game doesnt have bridges to accomodate that, just 4 lane avenues allow median rails.

If you get SimCity Creator for the Wii, maybe you could make a more realistic version of this city with curvy roads, as well as some more realistic features.

12/23/08 press gazette
Survey: Military Avenue roundabouts opposed

Few public works proposals are more controversial in the Green Bay area than roundabouts. People either love them or hate them.

They seem to be lining up on the "hate 'em" side of the proposal to build roundabouts into the coming Military Avenue reconstruction.

"The initial survey we got back from members was pretty overwhelmingly to go with the six-lane version," said Bryan Boettcher, newly elected president of the Military Avenue Business Association.

Military Avenue-area residents who commented on the project also seem to be opposed. Ed Wiesner, assistant director of public works for Green Bay, said the consensus of public comments so far is against the roundabouts.

Military Avenue is scheduled to be rebuilt between near Langlade Avenue to Dousman Street. Three options are proposed for the 1.5-mile project, including one with six roundabouts, one for six lanes with traffic lights and one for four lanes with traffic lights.

A public showing of the proposals was held Dec. 10 at Kennedy Elementary School. Comments will be taken until 11:45 a.m. Wednesday at City Hall.

The City Council Improvements and Services Committee is expected to meet on the project the week of Jan. 26, with a recommendation going to the City Council on Feb. 3.

The project is scheduled for 2010, ahead of a four-year reconstruction of nearby U.S. 41, which will have roundabouts at its exits and on intersections a block away.

For his part, County Board member Patrick Evans isn't convinced roundabouts are right for the busy West Mason Street and Shawano Avenue interchanges, but the main reason he opposes them is because his constituents do.

"The vast majority of the people that I've talked to, well over 150 people, have stated that they want to keep the road the way it is; six lanes with traffic lights," Evans said. "I just have not been overwhelmingly contacted by people who want it."

Surrounding communities — Allouez, De Pere, Howard/Suamico and Bellevue — have roundabouts, but there are none in Green Bay proper.

An argument for the roundabouts comes from the experience of Golden, Colo., which has four on less than a mile of commercial street.

A consultant's report in 2004 concluded the roundabouts resulted in slower speeds, quicker travel times and less delay at business-access points. It said accident rates dropped by 88 percent and injury accidents declined from 31 in the three years before installation to only one in the four and a-half years after.

Alex Ariniello of LSC Transportation Consultants Inc., Denver, wrote, "The improvement in traffic flow, vehicular safety and access to businesses combined with amenities such as landscaped medians and pedestrian walkways has stimulated economic activity. Sales tax revenues have increased 60 percent since installation of the roundabouts and 75,000 square feet of retail/office space has been built."

Also, a study of the West Mason Street/Military Avenue intersection based on actual traffic counts concluded that cars would be backed up at the intersection far less with a roundabout. With the four- or six-lanes options, cars during busy periods could be backed up 500 feet. They would be backed up less than 100 feet with the roundabout.

Boettcher said Military Avenue business owners are concerned that better traffic flow combined with no turn lanes would be bad for them.

"You want traffic to flow properly, but you want traffic to get into any business they want to," he said.

"They had asked if we were interested in roundabouts, and I'm not against them. I use the ones on Lineville Road (in Howard/ Suamico) a lot. I don't see that it will suit the business climate on Military Avenue."

Evans believes roundabouts at West Mason Street and Shawano Avenue would be bad for emergency vehicles and large trucks.

"On paper, you can say roundabouts are built for semi traffic. It's another thing when you are talking to the guy that's pulling the trailers," he said. "And I've talked to people on the rescue squad. They can flip those lights and race down Military Avenue in a short amount of time. A roundabout can slow them down."

Carl Weber, Green Bay director of public works, said the information they've gained on roundabouts tends to dispel those arguments.

"I wonder where those theories are coming from? Are they just guessing or do they have some research?" he said. "I don't know which, but I am concerned that people are jumping to conclusions without analyzing the information they can find."

Weber said they are seeking details, such as how do the individual plans address specific problems of business owners?

"Just strictly saying I'm for or against roundabouts without giving us some kind of reason, that probably doesn't carry as much weight," he said.

Weber said public works will make a recommendation at the January committee meeting.


Also;
Hobart, Howard eye Wisconsin 29 corridor for development
U.S. 41 improvements expected to boost area's appeal

A decade from now, Wisconsin 29 will become an arterial for economic development in the western part of the county.

The state Department of Transportation's expansion project for U.S. 41 includes improvements on Wisconsin 29, making the corridor a key part of commercial development for the villages of Howard and Hobart.

Orange drums may not appear on the highway interchange next year, but plans for acquiring land and utilities are under way, said state Department of Transportation project development supervisor Michael King.

Howard
Although the economic climate could make new development trickier, village officials in Howard still consider the area along the highway a prime development spot in coming years.

"We understand that bank financing and retail is down, so we've pulled back on what we want to do," said village administrator Joshua Smith.

"But this is still our No. 1 area in terms of future development."

The village's community development authority recently talked about a timeline and boundary for a redevelopment area on the south side of Wisconsin 29 from Taylor Street to Packerland Drive that will come up for a public hearing early next year.

"I really think that in the next five years the most construction is on this side, the Howard, Suamico, Hobart area," Smith said.

"A lot of the developers tell us it's where the rooftops are growing."

Once the work on the U.S 41/Wisconsin 29 interchange is completed, it might make the area more amenable to developers who wouldn't necessarily want to open up stores during the construction.

"They're looking for opportunities, buying land, but no one's saying anything about putting any bricks and mortar for a couple of years," Smith said.

Hobart
Hobart last week introduced a conceptual plan for a 600-acre, multiuse complex called the "Centennial Centre" that officials hope will take advantage of the Wisconsin 29 construction and boost the village's commercial growth.

Located on Wisconsin 29 between Overland Drive and Pine Tree Road, the development is seen as an opportunity to increase the village's tax base.

"If there's any land that can be a candidate for commercial development, it is this corridor — it is ideally located," said village President Rich Heidel during Thursday's informational session.

Because the village owns about 350 acres of the land in the area, it might be in a better position to bargain with potential investors despite a poor borrowing climate that could potentially deter developers, administrator Elaine Willman said.

"We already have four or five who are interested in multifamily buildings," Willman said.

That would potentially be the first part of the development, slated to start next year, and billed as the eventual downtown or village center for the municipality in the coming decade.

"We took some lessons from previous efforts," said Willman, adding that a proposed boulevard through the center would only be built as a pay-as-you-go effort and would not be built without some developer money.

Diamond interchanges, in which a freeway crosses a minor road, and overpasses planned around Overland Road and Brown County U will draw both travelers to and from Green Bay as well as Hobart residents.

I don't think we want to overuse the apartment model... While I think apartment buildings have a place, I think there's no question that ownership really effects one's perception. We need people down there who feel that they have a stake there. I think what we need are condos priced similarly to the ones across from the Meyer, but maybe a little more modern. Many people have bought in that building, and I think there's a bigger market at middle income than there is at luxury income.

I agree with you that affordable condos, like those in Riverside place are definitely the type of condos that we need down there, I just think that unless it is on the riverfront, people may not be willing to buy a condo. I know I personally would only buy one if I could walk out the door and be on the trail or City Deck. I do feel though that there are enough younger people in this city who would live in a downtown setting that would rent an apartment if it weren't on the water, just as long as they are close enough to the bars and restaurants.

However, isn't one of the main things we want to do is get a population back down there because once we have a larger population down there other business and retail will follow? I know that one larger apartment building will not solve everything, but I feel it would definitely be another piece to that overall puzzle of making downtown successful. Plus maybe if they started to demo the mall site for one building, other developers would see the site potential and more development would follow? I know I'm probably just dreaming here, but since this is Green Bay isn't that what we are reduced to doing?

Unless someone like the mayor, someone on the City Council, citizens or the Military Avenue Business Association forcefully and publicly advocates for them, roundabouts on Military Avenue look headed for defeat. The city, it seems, did not do a good job of rolling out the roundabouts proposal and working behind the scenes in advance to build support for them, if that’s what the city wanted, before going public. Too little too late on a hot-button topic. And too bad. A golden opportunity, it seems, to upgrade Military into something particularly special . . . missed.

By the way, I redid my math and it looks like the Highway 41 upgrade calls for some 24 roundabouts along the freeway from De Pere to Howard, including nine (count ‘em) on and near Shawano Avenue and Highway 29 where a complex new interchange is planned. Roundabouts also at W. Mason, Velp, Lombardi and elsewhere. Project to be completed in 2015. Maybe the Military roundabouts would have gone over better if the 41 roundabouts had been built first and people could see, one would hope, that they worked and are not to be feared, even in a commercial district like Military Avenue.

Unless someone like the mayor, someone on the City Council, citizens or the Military Avenue Business Association forcefully and publicly advocates for them, roundabouts on Military Avenue look headed for defeat. The city, it seems, did not do a good job of rolling out the roundabouts proposal and working behind the scenes in advance to build support for them, if that’s what the city wanted, before going public. Too little too late on a hot-button topic. And too bad. A golden opportunity, it seems, to upgrade Military into something particularly special . . . missed.

By the way, I redid my math and it looks like the Highway 41 upgrade calls for some 24 roundabouts along the freeway from De Pere to Howard, including nine (count ‘em) on and near Shawano Avenue and Highway 29 where a complex new interchange is planned. Roundabouts also at W. Mason, Velp, Lombardi and elsewhere. Project to be completed in 2015. Maybe the Military roundabouts would have gone over better if the 41 roundabouts had been built first and people could see, one would hope, that they worked and are not to be feared, even in a commercial district like Military Avenue.

I saw an interview where Mayor Schmitt was an advocate of the 4-Lane proposal and he cited wanting more green space and attractive landscaping. He also made note of this being so much more than rebuilding a thoroughfare, but creating a new 'face' of Military. I would like to see some bike lanes added, possibly some artwork (or a nice military piece on display on a Blvd.) that I think would go a long way in being progressive, urban and sustainable. I see this in Madison and it is very inviting. Does anyone know how this proposal works. Are they seeking public input and making a decision based off of that, based off of the Military district associaton, or will the city have the final say?

Here’s the link to today’s article in the Press-Gazette:

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20081223/GPG03/812230540/1247

The article says that comments on the Military Avenue project will be taken until 11:45 a.m. Wednesday (Christmas Eve) at City Hall. Call the City of Green Bay’s Department of Public Works, and they probably should be able to give you an email address for any comments you might have. I'm guessing that City Hall closes at noon the 24th.

The article also says that the city Improvement and Services Committee is expected to discuss the roundabouts proposal the week of January 26th to make a recommendation one way or the other to the full City Council. I suspect citizens will attend that meeting to comment, as well as the subsequent City Council meeting February 3rd if the Council takes us the proposal then.

Glad to hear that the mayor is advocating for the four-lane proposal and that he feels this is an opportunity to put a new face on Military!

It seems like the city has an opportunity to transform Military avenue into something extremely aesthetically pleasing and functional. Unfortunately it also seems that letting ordinary PEOPLE choose what and how traffic should flow through the area is a bad idea; according to the paper, most want to keep 6-lanes, no roundabouts, and i bet those same people that voted for those previous options would choose to not have bike lanes. It looks like the people just want something that benefits themselves (automobiles) and no one else (bikes and other vehicles). How? keep 6-lanes...it doesn't need 6-lanes:ohno:

It seems like the city has an opportunity to transform Military avenue into something extremely aesthetically pleasing and functional. Unfortunately it also seems that letting ordinary PEOPLE choose what and how traffic should flow through the area is a bad idea; according to the paper, most want to keep 6-lanes, no roundabouts, and i bet those same people that voted for those previous options would choose to not have bike lanes. It looks like the people just want something that benefits themselves (automobiles) and no one else (bikes and other vehicles). How? keep 6-lanes...it doesn't need 6-lanes:ohno:

I hear ya, Jschmuck! Speaking of ordinary people chiming in, did anyone on this board write in and respond? I did and mentioned that I wanted the green space, landscaping and bike lanes. I really hope some of these members of the City Improvement and Services Committee will reason along these lines. This is practical, functional, progressive, sustainable, evironmentally friendly and easy on the eyes and will leave an impression on people. Why cannot people not see this?

Bike lanes on busy roads like Military Ave and others just put drivers at risk. There are side streets that bikes can use if they need to get around, but a busy throughway is no place for them.

Regarding the trolley loop that Kramerica outlined and Puant mapped:

Upon seeing the map, perhaps the line towards Bay Beach should head out along Irwin and back along Webster. That seems a better approach. At any rate, I think that's the least important leg.

The key with this, and why I think that if we ever do build a trolley we need to start with a line such as the Downtown/Joannes/Transit Center line is that it includes an important near-downtown neighborhood. These lines are designed to not only get people who live downtown out to many amenities, but they run through great, compact, walkable neighborhoods and would put thousands (if someone could figure out how many people would live within a 1/4 mile and 1/2 mile of these lines, that would be interesting) of people into a walkable/transit friendly living environment with downtown as the hub, not to mention a great collection of parks.

I for one believe that the key reason to improve the downtown is what it can do for the city as a whole. I believe that a limited system could do a great deal towards improving our near downtown neighborhoods. Obviously this is all a bit pie-in-the-sky right now, but if we start with HSR linking to the Valley and on to Chicago, and expand onto a system like this, you'd really have a major portion of the population who could live without using a car all that much if at all, and you'd have housing options within that area ranging from apartments and condos downtown, to the wide range of home sizes in near-downtown neighborhoods from small starter homes to huge mansions.

As an aside, I also don't think you'd HAVE to have railed trolleys. A system with nice stops (with signs telling the ETA of the next trolley) and sufficient service could do the trick with much lower initial costs. Still not cheap, but much less than laying all that track. Also, a bus route ran in a loop from the transit center, to the stadium area, to Bay Park, to downtown De Pere and back could be a nice supplement to this system that would connect people downtown to the major destinations in the area quickly. Anyway, that's my thinking.

Photo tour:

I have some thoughts of spending Friday downtown with my camera, so if anyone has any ideas on what they think would make a good subject, let me know and I'll try to incorporate that.

I modified the loops (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=105417852065100541309.00045e7ad1026e5963a0c&ll=44.51138,-88.004951&spn=0.039295,0.06875&z=14), taking out the leg that goes to Bay Beach for now. Each loop is now about 3.5 miles.

I did some further analysis of the latest trolley loop ideas. You guys might not believe this (I didn't either at first) but it checks out:

There are over 13,000 people living within a quarter mile of the loops (it's an area of about 6 square miles).

This is according to the "block level" population tally from the 2000 census (most detailed available). If you add the Bay Beach leg that puts the number to over 15,000 people living within 1/4 mile of the trolley.

Given some of the new condos and stuff built downtown since 2000, I think the number of residents may have grown significantly. And these are just the residents.

Just to put this in perspective a bit: All of Bellevue (15 square miles) had 11,830 people living there in 2000. Suamico (36 square miles) had 8686 residents.

There are also estimated to be 11,000 employees in this 6 square miles of "core" downtown, many of whom currently drive in from the suburbs. I dream of a more "distributed" parking arrangement where people who drive in could park in various fringe areas and simply hop on the trolley to get into the core downtown and be dropped off at the door of their destination..this sure beats massive parking lots and ramps all over the downtown...I think something like 40-50% of the downtown area is dedicated to parking...

I agree that these loops wouldn't HAVE to be railed streetcars, buses do serve the same function. But in order for transit to work, it's got to be both convenient and attractive. Trolleys do offer perhaps a bit more convenience than busses, but moreover , There's something more attractive about the idea of riding a trolley as opposed to a bus, and I think it's more than just nostalgia or simple novelty. I'm currently researching this and plan to whip up a blog article on these ideas soon.

From today's Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122996650443826683.html#articleTabs%3Darticle):

A Real Auto Bailout: Escape Your Car

Last week, the auto industry finally got its bailout.

But is it time for Americans to rescue their own finances from their cars?

Families are now bracing for the mother of all recessions. They're looking for every chance to save a dollar.

Forget lattes and store-brand cereal. If you really want to see where your money is going, take a closer look at your car. Foreign or domestic, it doesn't matter. It's a cash guzzler, and it is probably costing you more than anything else except your home.

How much? First there's the actual capital cost of buying the vehicle. Obviously people can spend as little as a few thousand dollars buying an old clunker. But most spend a lot more. And that initial cost is just the start. Now add everything from gas and maintenance to insurance, registration, taxes, tolls, parking, tickets and so on.

You'll be lucky if you're spending less than about $4,000 a year. Most people will pay a lot more. If you buy the vehicle with a loan, you'll have to pay interest. If you pay cash, you have to factor in the interest you would have made on that money if you had saved it instead. That's a real cost too, and a substantial one, though most people forget about it.

In 2007, the most recent year that numbers are available, the American Automobile Association figured its members paid about $7,800 a year on average to own and maintain their cars. That figure dropped to about $6,200 for small-car owners.

The AAA's numbers were tabulated before the surge, and recent collapse, of gasoline prices. It's hard to imagine gas prices will to remain at today's panic-level $1.60 per gallon for long. But even if they do, that will only cut the AAA's figures by about $400 annually.

These are not trifling costs. Drivers are hemhorraging money. The federal Bureau of Labor Statistics calculated that in 2006 vehicles sucked down nearly 17 cents of every family dollar.

Maybe it's time for smart families to consider some really tough choices.

Life without a car may seem inconceivable. They are useful and can be fun. In most parts of America, you really can't survive without one. And they've been hammered into the culture and the national psyche.

But a lot of things are happening these days that nobody expected. Rules are changing. People need to make every dollar count.

Trading down to the cheapest car possible is one move. Dumping one vehicle from a two-car household is tougher to do, but offers real savings. Moving into a city with a downtown, and getting rid of your cars completely, can save you even more. When you factor in the savings, city real estate might actually work out in your favor.

Residents of inner-ring and upscale suburbs, as well as everyone in car-dependent cities like Dallas and Atlanta, are in the worst of all possible worlds on this. They're paying plenty for real estate – and then paying even more on top of that to run a car for each adult in the home.

Surely they'd be better off moving out to the country, where they would still need their cars but at least real estate is cheap, or into a downtown where they could lose the cars.

Necessity, they say, is the mother of invention. We are going to see a lot of necessity. It may lead to some interesting developments
.

Read the article here (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122996650443826683.html#articleTabs%3Darticle)

Bike lanes on busy roads like Military Ave and others just put drivers at risk. There are side streets that bikes can use if they need to get around, but a busy throughway is no place for them.

Then lets not have bike lanes...Instead, bring Military down to 4-lanes, and turn that extra ROW into 2 completely segregated extra wide pedestrian/bike paths, on each side of the road. (an extra wide sidewalk, that can accomodate peds and bikes). But Military is in a perfect situation that CAN accomodate this because it will be reconstructed. And ruling out MULTIMODAL is completely wrong.

I think the greatest concern should be safety traveling through the Military Ave corridor. Safety along with faster transit times at slower speeds should make roundabouts a no-brainer. I'm tired of people racing from lights to lights. I'm also tired of waiting in traffic at Mason & Military.

Here's the link to the study of the Golden, CO roundabouts:

http://www.ci.golden.co.us/files/roundaboutpaper.pdf

I think that Gbmphillips is right on this, except that I'd phrase it differently: cars would put bicyclists at risk. Perhaps the landscaping can accommodate a distinct bicycle lane. The bike lane would need to connect to downtown somehow.

I think that Gbmphillips is right on this, except that I'd phrase it differently: cars would put bicyclists at risk. Perhaps the landscaping can accommodate a distinct bicycle lane. The bike lane would need to connect to downtown somehow.

Touche, fellas. But after reading the Press Gazette, what are the chances of having the lanes reduced?

just wanted to wish everyone a Merry Christmas!!!!

First off, Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas to all that celebrate. Please be safe!! Without you we would not have near the amount of great ideas and my days would be much less boring due to the lack of posts on this board :nuts:

Anyways, I've been thinking quite a bit lately about things we can do to influence our local government, peers, neighbors and media. Its great that we all participate here on this board and I know some of you periodically write your representatives, but it seems like we have such a strong group of advocates for DT GB here that we could do a lot more if we were a bit more organized. This became even more apparent with the recent Military Ave round-about issue.

On to some of the ideas:
Local Media - One thing that drives me crazy (even though it shouldn't) are the insane number of negative posts on the GBPG website. We have such a core group of followers here that I am thinking we could bring a positive light to many of those articles and comments. Just like this board, I'm sure there are many readers of those comments that don't speak up (maybe due to the overwhelming number of negative responses??). If nothing else, I know some of the writers/editors read those comments and any influence we can have in that regard is sure to be positive. I'm not sure what other outlets there are to also voice our opinion, the GBPG is just the one I am most familiar with.

Peers and Neighbors - I've been chatting more and more about DT GB and the prospect of light rail at work recently. Although I would hardly use it, I am a strong proponent of the idea and what it can do for our communities. Its remarkable how many people I have spoken to have an interest (positive) in seeing this happen. I have found myself becoming an advocate of many of these issues and even directing them to this message board. Many of us will be visiting with friends and family over the next few days. Take a few minutes to bring up some of our recent discussions (Bullfrogs, Military, Light Rail, etc.) and I think we will be surprised to see how many people have a true interest in it. Point them to this site, to the Packerland Annals, etc. Any interest and/or participation will also help.

Government -Obviously, writing our local and state representatives can have an impact, but it is difficult to gauge the effect it may have. Getting involved in the local groups and attending meetings may also be a way for many of us to participate (and maybe even network :)) Not sure what else to do hear... any ideas?

And that leads me to...

Organization - We have a great group of advocates here, but there are still many issues/ideas that we miss or aren't fully aware of. A recent great example is the Military Road reconstruction. I saw at least one post on this board stating that they were not aware of the issue and that they are taking feedback. If we could develop a place to keep track of our local issues and ways we can get involved it may really help us to become more actively engaged. This forum is great for discussion, but its now many dozens of pages long and things can be forgotten and/or missed. A website with the issue, dates, ways to get involved, etc. may be a source we could utilize. I'm just throwing out crazy ideas in case anybody wants to take it that far. It would be awesome to have an intake form anybody could fill out to report an issue or discussion going on in the community that we may be able to influence... I'll think a bit more about this and maybe I can come up with some more precise ideas.

If you can't tell I've been thinking about some of this for a while and just thought I'd throw it out there. With the holidays upon us I figured the board would be quite empty so hopefully this gives some of us die-hards some discussion points once the relatives leave :lol:

Again, Happy Holidays to all!!

^^Good Post, Oliver.

GBPG forum:
Everyone has a right to express their opinion but since so many of the posters there are very irrational (and even anti-intellectual) I think that tends to discourage the real thinkers from posting replies. The P-G forum is NOT a place for good debate or deep thinking. From time to time I speak up over there but I feel like it's such a waste of time. I think many of the posters there, even the overly negative ones, do indeed want to see change for things like an improved downtown, even passenger rail and things like that, but they're just more interested in bitching and coming up with the stupid wise cracks. They're generally not interested in saying anything productive.

Peers and neighbors
I too have been chatting about downtown, regional passenger rail, etc with people I know. Most people do seem very interested. I believe more and more that there is a lot of "pent up demand" for this stuff out there, more than perhaps many of us even realize.

^^Good Post, Oliver.

GBPG forum:
Everyone has a right to express their opinion but since so many of the posters there are very irrational (and even anti-intellectual) I think that tends to discourage the real thinkers from posting replies. The P-G forum is NOT a place for good debate or deep thinking. From time to time I speak up over there but I feel like it's such a waste of time.

And the worst part of it all is that anyone who visits the site sees the comments by default and cannot turn them off. I'm glad people from outside of the area get to see the finest our metro has to offer when they look for news from Green Bay.

To actively answer something from earlier in this forum instead of just complaining, yes they are still actively working on the city deck. Whether that work consists of only driving pilings into the river bed, I don't know, but I see people working there every day even through the bad weather.

First off, I've put up 30 photos I took yesterday at: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=775206

Bike lanes on busy roads like Military Ave and others just put drivers at risk. There are side streets that bikes can use if they need to get around, but a busy throughway is no place for them.

This statement is false. It presumes that cars have a greater right to the road than bicycles, which they do not. A busy thoroughfare is a place for bikes if they decide to be there, and roads should be built to accommodate both as possible.

Puant, thanks for finding out those population numbers. I think that to the degree you tie in the near-downtown neighborhoods with downtown, both will prosper. Add in the near-west-side extension that Kramerica mentioned and you could get close to 20,000 people I'd bet. That's a heck of a population base that could all become very walkable, with a lot of great housing. Also, I'm wondering if a Bay Beach loop shouldn't run down Quincy from Bay Shore to Eastman, to connect with all of those jobs.

I agree completely with Jschmuck. I think that Military Avenue needs to be downgraded to just four lanes. I have such a hard time crossing that street when I shop down there sometimes. I was crossing Military Avenue once to get to Toys "R" Us from Burger King, a truck was turning on red, I almost got hit. Luckily, I sprinted out of the way. That is how bad the traffic is on the Military Avenue and Mason Street intersection. If they can not afford six roundabouts, maybe they should stick to having just three, one on Mason and Military, one on Shawano and Military, and one on 9th and Military. Another thing that's bad about the Mason/Military intersection, is that it has been the site of many car accidents.

^^ I think that pedestrians on Military put drivers at risk. Pedestrians should take side roads. Let's take the sidewalks out of Military Ave. and add even more lanes for cars.

:doh:

^^Bad idea, Danillo.

Let's have streets that are more pedestrian friendly in our city. I'm kind of partial to the whole bicycle/pedestrian lane myself. Like I said before, I agree with Jschmuck's idea. Not all people in this city own cars. Some own bikes, some own mopeds, some own scooters, some walk and take the bus or taxi cab. The idea of taking away pedestrian traffic from Military Avenue is where I draw the line. That just sounds like a big joke. We need to make it fair for both vehicles and pedestrians.

I use the crosswalks on that intersection, but the design of those crosswalks are so awkward, especially the crosswalk between the BP station and Starbucks, which has been designed with a bend as you come to the Mason Street corner.

Just so Danillo doesn't have to say it: I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic.

I think that bicycling/pedestrianism shouldn't be treated as a low income option, but as something that will start making more sense both in environmental/economic terms and for public health. That being said, I think that the fox river trail should have its system of fees removed. After all, no one has to purchase a special license to drive on I-172. I don't think that people should have to pay extra to use a path set aside for walking, roller blading, and bicycling. It's being treated in purely recreational terms. If there are other unused rights of way (are there?) perhaps these should be converted to bicycle paths too. This is something that's being done in Chicago at the moment.

I got a new book for Christmas, "The Option of Urbanism: Investing in a New American Dream" by Christopher Leinberger. I'm only on page 32 but lots of good stuff so far.

One quote in here I thought I'd share as it ties into the current conversation. This isn't mind-blowing, it's always been a well-known concept but the book mentions that:

"Throughout urban history, transportation has driven development. The transportation in which the society chooses to invest its money, either direct government dollars or government-regulated private dollars, is the primary dictator of where and how we construct the built environment"

So all of our talk on this thread about transportation is all very key. Keep up the conversation, I enjoy this forum more than any other one out there.

P.S. here's more on this book (http://www.optionofurbanism.com/) and more on the author Christopher Leinberger (http://www.cleinberger.com/). I think a lot of you would find his writings interesting and informative.

^^Bad idea, Danillo.

Just so Danillo doesn't have to say it: I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic.

Nativist is right, I was being very sarcastic. When re-doing a road like Military, bike lanes should be virtually compulsory, and pedestrian access should be a top priority. I was trying to poke a bit of fun at GBM's comments regarding bikers putting drivers in danger, because, you know, when someone on a 20 lb bike comes into conflict with someone in a couple thousand lb. car, the one in the car is the one being put in danger (more sarcasm).

Danillo-If you had to guess on the course of action with Military, what would it be? Do you think that they will reduce the lanes and make it more attractive? Thanks!

From the Press-Gazette (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20081228/GPG03/812280358/1247):

Green Bay's downtown leaders expect dynamic 2009
Many projects to launch; economy holds some in check

High-profile projects will continue to move forward, or be debated because they don't, and lower-profile projects will happen whether noticed or not.

"Downtown today is vastly different than it was in 2000," said Jeff Mirkes, executive director of Downtown Green Bay Inc. and Olde Main Street Inc. "There was a serious concern and sentiment about where downtown was going. Today, it's heightened confidence, better performance and an array of segments that are working together."

New construction projects stand out, of course, but business moves that have little or nothing to do with new buildings also are happening.

Mirkes said three organizations have decided to locate corporate offices downtown, and he is talking with others.

American Foods Group is moving to 500 S. Washington St. and Brown County United Way will move into the former Du Bois Formalwear building at 1245 Main St. near the end of February. Manitowoc Marine Group is opening an office in the Columbus Office Building on East Walnut Street related to its ACE Marine operations in the K&K Warehouse on the Fox River.

A survey of downtown office occupancy by Downtown Green Bay Inc. found that 94 percent of total office space in downtown Green Bay, east of the Fox River, was being used.

Lots of activity
There are construction projects aplenty, both launched and planned. Work has begun on The CityDeck boardwalk over the Fox River and on the retail shops on the ground level of the Cherry Street parking ramp.

The recession and credit crisis are impacting other development. Milwaukee developer John Vetter's 17-story Astor Place project is on hold pending financing, his WaterMark project is delayed, and redevelopment of the shuttered Washington Commons mall also is stalled.

Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt said T.Wall Properties of Middleton, which has a planning option for the mall, envisions creating four development sites on the five-acre property, but won't do anything until it signs an anchor businesses. He said T.Wall was talking to two businesses that liked the project, but said the timing wasn't right.

"They are talking to tenants as am I. Hopefully, we can get a commitment from an anchor tenant in 2009," Schmitt said.

Schmitt recently was among U.S. Conference of Mayors members seeking federal economic stimulus packaging funding for a wide range of projects, including re-establishing the street grid through the mall and expanding the KI Convention Center on Main Street.

"If we get some infrastructure funding from the economic stimulus, that money would allow T.Wall and the city to offer some very competitive rates," he said.

Mirkes said the downtown focus is not as much on the mall as in the past because of other projects. Schmitt agreed, but said the mall remains a key piece in overall redevelopment.

"I think there is less talk, but it still is part of the overall focus downtown. It needs to stay on the front burner," he said.

Those other projects Mirkes referred to include The CityDeck and the WaterMark office/retail/condo development, the Green Bay Children's Museum and Hagermeister Park Restaurant. WaterMark and other pieces are the redevelopment of the former Younkers department store.

Vetter is trying to find financial backing for WaterMark and his nearby Astor Place project.

"There are some people who don't feel (development) is happening fast enough. There is all this impatience, but when it comes to development, large or small, it takes time," Mirkes said. "It's a process where you just chip away at it. We are beginning to see the payback, and we definitely want to build on that."

CityDeck under way
The one underway project is the CityDeck, which will consist of a four-section boardwalk that extends over the east bank of the Fox River between East Walnut and Main streets. Phase 1, scheduled for completion by Labor Day 2009, includes all the onshore work as well as the boardwalk section nearest Main Street, which is named Shopko Landing. The project is budgeted at $12 million, of which the city has $7 million in hand. The first phase will cost about $5 million.

In the Cherry Street parking ramp, Sara Investment Real Estate LLC of Middleton is building for lease 4,000 square feet of retail space facing East Walnut Street and 7,000 square feet facing North Washington Street. The shops will be on the ground floor, under the 802-space ramp.

Completed projects in 2008 included the repaving of Main Street from the Fox River to Baird Street and the completion of a new building for Shopko Express and the Green Bay Area Chamber of Commerce at Broadway and Dousman Street. The project also included the extension of Pearl Street north of Dousman.

Republic Chophouse, a high-end steak house, opened in September at 218 N. Adams St. and Maloney's Pub, 223 N. Washington St., changed owners and names — Knuckles Sports Bar & Grill — in October.

Flats on the Fox Apartments, a 64-unit development in which Vetter was an investor, was completed in November and is 92 percent occupied, Mirkes said.

By the way, the federal "Economic stimulus" list for the City of Green Bay included:

$2 million for mall site demo and infrastructure development
$3.5 mil for CityDeck Phase II
$3.5 mil for the Children's Museum
$2.5 mil for the Federal Courthouse construction
$9 mil for 'build out of agrilink site'
$10 mil for convention space
$10 mil for parking ramp construction
$10 mil for central library restoration
$10 mil for police dept expansion and renovation
$8 mil for Port Plaza Towers rehab
$25 mil for coal pile relocation
$25 mil for passenger rail
...a bunch of other road projects, etc.

From the Press-Gazette (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20081228/GPG03/812280358/1247):



By the way, the federal "Economic stimulus" list for the City of Green Bay included:

$2 million for mall site demo and infrastructure development
$3.5 mil for CityDeck Phase II
$3.5 mil for the Children's Museum
$2.5 mil for the Federal Courthouse construction
$9 mil for 'build out of agrilink site'
$10 mil for convention space
$10 mil for parking ramp construction
$10 mil for central library restoration
$10 mil for police dept expansion and renovation
$8 mil for Port Plaza Towers rehab
$25 mil for coal pile relocation
$25 mil for passenger rail
...a bunch of other road projects, etc.



Thanks Puant for posting the article & the info regarding the "stimulus" list. Where did you find that? I'm surpised they didn't ask for 30 million for Astor Park & another 20 million for a bullfrog stadium. What the heck, it's free money, right off the money tree. I'm going to plant a few trees in my back yard.

$10 mil for convention space
$10 mil for parking ramp construction
$10 mil for central library restoration
$10 mil for police dept expansion and renovation
$8 mil for Port Plaza Towers rehab
$25 mil for coal pile relocation
$25 mil for passenger rail
...a bunch of other road projects, etc.
[/LIST]

What parking ramp construction are they talking about? My only guess would be something with the Main St. Ramp? Also, is that convention space for the expansion of the KI Center?

Danillo-If you had to guess on the course of action with Military, what would it be? Do you think that they will reduce the lanes and make it more attractive? Thanks!

Well, and it's just a guess, it seems that getting roundabouts going has been difficult in Green Bay. I seem to remember that there was a roundabout or two planned for East Shore Dr., and it was opposed and removed from the project on the grounds that cars accelerating away from the roundabout would create a noise problem for residents. So I'm not too confident there will be roundabouts. In that light, I'm not even sure you could reduce to 4 lanes because during peak times you need somewhere to put all the cars waiting at lights, particularly between Shawano and Dousman. I'm wondering if with two lanes the backups would extend all the way through the next intersection. Obviously roundabouts would solve that, but I'm skeptical they'll be built. So, my guess is they'll keep it pretty much the same with some streetscaping improvements and hopefully some improvements to make it more pedestrian friendly, or at least as friendly as a 6-lane road can be.

By the way, the federal "Economic stimulus" list for the City of Green Bay included:

$2 million for mall site demo and infrastructure development
$3.5 mil for CityDeck Phase II
$3.5 mil for the Children's Museum
$2.5 mil for the Federal Courthouse construction
$9 mil for 'build out of agrilink site'
$10 mil for convention space
$10 mil for parking ramp construction
$10 mil for central library restoration
$10 mil for police dept expansion and renovation
$8 mil for Port Plaza Towers rehab
$25 mil for coal pile relocation
$25 mil for passenger rail
...a bunch of other road projects, etc.


What parking ramp construction are they talking about? My only guess would be something with the Main St. Ramp? Also, is that convention space for the expansion of the KI Center?

As I understood it, stimulus projects are supposed to be "shovel-ready," so able to start in 90 days and finished in 2010. Some of those projects listed I find it very hard to believe that they are planned out and ready to begin in 90 days, or be finished in a year or two.

That said, the one that interests me most and is probably possible to start and finish withing those time lines is the money to demo the mall and develop infrastructure. I'm not sure exactly what that entails, but that would be a great project which would really help encourage development on that site. Related to that, my guess is the item for the parking ramp would be for a ramp on the mall site, as I believe on was to be built in the T. Wall development. So if those two happened, that would fit in with what the Mayor was referring to when he said, "If we get some infrastructure funding from the economic stimulus, that money would allow T.Wall and the city to offer some very competitive rates."

Also, phase two of the City Deck almost certainly seems like it could be ready to construct withing the given time frame, so that's possible too. I'm not sure museum building or library improvements or a federal courthouse, nice as all of those would be, are the sorts of things that the stimulus program will be funding, but what the heck do I know. And the rail bit confuses me still, unless it's an attempt to speed up development of the Milwaukee to GB leg of Midwest HSR.

So, my wish list would be for A) the Mall demo and B) for phase 2 of the CityDeck, that would be $5.5 million well spent. Then if somehow we also got funding for a parking ramp on the mall site which made development there more possible and also opened up the Baylake Bank lot for a public square, that would be really great too.

Gov. Doyle has included money in Wisconsin’s federal economic stimulus request to build a passenger rail line between Milwaukee and Madison (second to last paragraph of the following AP article). There’s no mention of the Milwaukee-to-Green Bay route here, but in the past the extensions of Amtrak from Milwaukee to Madison and Green Bay have been considered tandem projects. So I wonder if there’s Green Bay funding included in the governor’s request as well.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20081229/GPG0101/812290509/1978

I wish the Press-Gazette would do some local follow-up on the Amtrak-to-Green Bay story. It’s not a definite thing by any means, but the fact that the extension is being discussed by the city and possibly now by the governor is newsworthy. I’m sure people out there have questions of where such an Amtrak route would go, where might a passenger depot be located in Green Bay, what might the passenger count be and how many trains per day could run and at what speed, how long would it take to get to Milwaukee and Chicago from here, what has to be done to upgrade the freight track from Green Bay to Milwaukee to handle passenger trains, how much would this all cost, how long would construction take, what might be possible start-up dates, etc.

www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/state/docs/railmidwest.pdf

Gov. Doyle has included money in Wisconsin’s federal economic stimulus request to build a passenger rail line between Milwaukee and Madison (second to last paragraph of the following AP article). There’s no mention of the Milwaukee-to-Green Bay route here, but in the past the extensions of Amtrak from Milwaukee to Madison and Green Bay have been considered tandem projects. So I wonder if there’s Green Bay funding included in the governor’s request as well.

What do you mean by tandem? I've been following passenger rail development in Wisconsin closely and have never seen the two lines (to Madison, to Green Bay) related in any way, shape, or form. The only commonality is that they both appear to be extensions of the Chicago-Milwaukee Hiawatha service. (According the MWRRI, 17 MKE-CHI round trips, with 10 continuing on to MAD and 7 to GB)

I wish the Press-Gazette would do some local follow-up on the Amtrak-to-Green Bay story. It’s not a definite thing by any means, but the fact that the extension is being discussed by the city and possibly now by the governor is newsworthy. I’m sure people out there have questions of where such an Amtrak route would go, where might a passenger depot be located in Green Bay, what might the passenger count be and how many trains per day could run and at what speed, how long would it take to get to Milwaukee and Chicago from here, what has to be done to upgrade the freight track from Green Bay to Milwaukee to handle passenger trains, how much would this all cost, how long would construction take, what might be possible start-up dates, etc.

www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/state/docs/railmidwest.pdf

That MWRRI report you link to provides many answers, but still leaves out plenty of detail. The route between FdL and Milwaukee is a major question mark, as are specific locations for stations. An in-depth article in the PG or the JS would be really nice and hopefully stir up some support and excitement.

It is possible and perhaps likely that those details aren't available though, because there isn't an Environmental Impact Statement for the GB train. The MAD train has had an EIS (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/d1/hsrail/environ.htm), so all that detail was studied. But the GB train might only exist in the MWRRI report, which is a very broad study and implementation guide. That's why I have my doubts (as do others on this forum) that any GB train funding will make it into the stimulus package, since it doesn't appear to be close to ready for construction. The Madison line, however, is pretty much just waiting for funding.

First off, I've put up 30 photos I took yesterday at: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=775206


I have a couple questions...

First, nice pics. I'm kind of a wannabe photog myself so I'd be interested to know what lens you used..

After looking at the Jefferson Court building, it got me thinking. If a new federal courthouse is built downtown, I wonder how this building will be used??

Second.. how the he!! do you "multi-quote" a message? I can never get that to work..

What do you mean by tandem? I've been following passenger rail development in Wisconsin closely and have never seen the two lines (to Madison, to Green Bay) related in any way, shape, or form. The only commonality is that they both appear to be extensions of the Chicago-Milwaukee Hiawatha service. (According the MWRRI, 17 MKE-CHI round trips, with 10 continuing on to MAD and 7 to GB)

You’re right, I’m wrong. Although extending Amtrak to Madison and Green Bay has been mentioned in newspaper articles I’ve read over the years, I can see now that the Madison route is much farther along in the planning process. As I’m sure you know, if all goes well, they’re talking about the possibility of Amtrak to Madison in as little as three years.

www.madison.com/tct/top5/308806

If it’s not being done already, I hope an effort will get under way to develop an environmental impact study of a Milwaukee-Green Bay route when it’s feasible. Sounds like that would certainly move the process along. Maybe a coordinated push from area legislators and government officials would help. Keep passing on Amtrak developments in Wisconsin as you come across them. Thanks.

I have a couple questions...

First, nice pics. I'm kind of a wannabe photog myself so I'd be interested to know what lens you used..

I discussed this in, probably to much, detail on the photo thread, but the short answer is I used my grandfather's old Minolta X-700 camera, and my lenses include: 16mm fisheye, 24mm and 50mm primes, a 35-70mm zoom, and a 100-300mm zoom. All are Minolta Rokkor/MD, except the 100-300mm, which is a Tokina. If you are interested in learning more, feel free to PM me.

After looking at the Jefferson Court building, it got me thinking. If a new federal courthouse is built downtown, I wonder how this building will be used??

Probably offices of some sort, most likely law offices. One dream of mine for downtown would be to make that building an art museum. How cool would that be. So if anyone knows anyone with millions of dollars lying around, and who wants to buy that building, and who wants to donate a nice collection of art... uh... let me know. :)

Second.. how the he!! do you "multi-quote" a message? I can never get that to work..

At the bottom right of each post there's a button with a piece of paper, quotation marks, and a plus. If you click that it will turn red. So click that button for all posts you want to quote, then click on Post Reply. To break up one quote as I've done here, I just break the quote into sections then copy/paste the quote opening and closing tags where needed.

the Brown County Courthouse is just that...a COUNTY courthouse. they right now do not have a fully functioning federal couthouse in that building to my understanding and most of those cases now have to be tried in milwaukee or madison as those are the only other federal courts in wisconsin. the brown county courthouse will still be fully utilized. at least this has been my understanding the entire time i have heard the story of the New Federal Courthouse

the Brown County Courthouse is just that...a COUNTY courthouse. they right now do not have a fully functioning federal couthouse in that building to my understanding and most of those cases now have to be tried in milwaukee or madison as those are the only other federal courts in wisconsin. the brown county courthouse will still be fully utilized. at least this has been my understanding the entire time i have heard the story of the New Federal Courthouse
There is also a federal court in Wausau and possibly one in Eau Claire.

Mike

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3076/3150592470_2e4fd21564_b.jpg
PHILIPPINES

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3076/3150592470_2e4fd21564_b.jpg
PHILIPPINES

the Brown County Courthouse is just that...a COUNTY courthouse. they right now do not have a fully functioning federal couthouse in that building to my understanding and most of those cases now have to be tried in milwaukee or madison as those are the only other federal courts in wisconsin. the brown county courthouse will still be fully utilized. at least this has been my understanding the entire time i have heard the story of the New Federal Courthouse

The building where the federal court currently exists is not the county courthouse. I think there may be some offices at the county courthouse but it is not all houseed at that location. The location where they are currently located is an old library, if I'm not mistaken.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/GBcourthouse.jpg

There are four federal courts in Wisconsin: Milwaukee, Madison, Green Bay and Eau Claire. The federal courthouse in Green Bay is Jefferson Court (above), the former library/museum building on S. Jefferson St. It also houses two law firms. I believe federal cases in Green Bay move to larger courtrooms in the Brown County Courthouse across the street when needed. They’re looking to construct/find a larger federal court building somewhere in downtown Green Bay. The photo above is a U.S. District Court photo.

www.wied.uscourts.gov
www.wied.uscourts.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=80

As for Wausau, it’s one of four locations for the Wisconsin Court of Appeals, a state court. The other three locations for that court are Milwaukee, Madison and Waukesha.

One dream of mine for downtown would be to make that building an art museum. How cool would that be. So if anyone knows anyone with millions of dollars lying around, and who wants to buy that building, and who wants to donate a nice collection of art... uh... let me know.

I don't know if this is common knowledge, but it's not a secret, the building at the North end of the Larsen Green development (which I believe someone linked to a photo of several pages back) is meant to be an art museum. For the past several years some folks have been chasing after an art collection someone is looking to donate to a museum, and it actually looks like it might happen. If it doesn't, the institution will likely focus on a more experiential kind of thing, but art related: similar to what the Kohler Arts Center does in Sheboygan.

Over the years I've heard various locations for the new Fed courthouse kicked around:

1) When Jadin was mayor he was proposing that it go on Site 4 (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=rdk7dj7nyrwc&style=b&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15772551&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1)but I'm not sure it's large enough anymore now that the north half has been built on by Nicolet Bank

2) I've also heard the block surrounded by Monroe, Cherry, Madison and Walnut (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=rdjyym7nz5w8&style=b&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15772819&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1)(currently just mostly parking & a few junk buildings). I think this would be a good site.

Does anyone know of where else this thing might get built? Since it's going to be a fairly significant building I do hope it's downtown somewhere....

Also it would seem to make sense to keep it in the "government district" (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=105417852065100541309.00045ced60292434ab73e&ll=44.514517,-88.011045&spn=0.009823,0.01663&z=16) somewhere near the current County courthouse...Is that the case?

There are lots of other large surface parking lots nearby that could relatively easily be developed into a courthouse site, I think. This is a big opportunity for the city go actually get something significant built downtown, I hope the siting of it isn't shortsighted and just crammed into some place where it doesn't make sense from any standpoint except parking.

One thought I have, and I'm not sure I'm crazy about it, but would it make sense for the feds to buy out the buildings and parking lots across fro the current courthouse on Adams St (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=rdjzxs7nyv6f&style=b&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15772895&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1)(where the Stein is located) and build the courthouse there? Not the west half of the block of course.....Just the east half. Yeah I love the Stein and would rather see it reopen, and i know those other buildings are somewhat significant and are occupied by "pi". Would they be willing to sell out? Would it make sense for the Fed courhouse to locate across from the current Detention Center? Is there any synergy there? I'd say maybe not but it's worth thinking about.

Or else, how about just to the south (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=rdjvp67nyrxy&style=b&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15772895&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1)on the block that has Chase Bank, Rummelle's Jewelers (and nothing else other than a surface parking lot). We'd want Chase Bank and the jeweler to stay downtown but is there any chance they'd be willing to build/move into a better building in the downtown (maybe even on the mall site?), so that the fed courthouse could be built near the current courthouse & detention center? For various reasons I could see a courthouse here..

It would seem the best and most available site might be #2 above (the block surrounded by Monroe, Cherry, Madison and Walnut). I guess I'm pulling for that one...unless some of you can talk me into a better idea.

Other links of interest on this matter:

Recent letter from Senators Kohl and Feingold (http://feingold.senate.gov/~feingold/releases/08/07/20080731g.html)
New Fed Courthouses in Phoenix (http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd187/denveraztec/Phoenix%20Two/PhoenixThreadTwo171.jpg)
New fed courthouse in El Paso (http://www.elpasodowntownshopping.com/images/Federal%20Court%20House.jpg)
Other new federal courthouse images (http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1T4GWYF_en___US245&q=new+federal+courthouse&btnG=Search+Images) (you can see these are usually very significant buildings...I wonder how large of a building is needed in GB?

thanks everyone for their clarifications on the federal courthouse issue. i know i only had ideas and never heard the actual truth out the situation and what will happen in it all comes to fruition. and also....HAPPY NEW YEAR!!

Haven’t heard anything on a new federal court location in Green Bay other than what I’ve read here and in the Press-Gazette. Puant, you mentioned that the mayor included money for federal courthouse construction in his economic stimulus request. But I just don’t know how far along this court project is and if anyone has any specifics yet on the who’s, what’s, when’s, why’s and where’s. We’ll see. Thanks for the information on potential sites!

Out the door now. Happy 2009 to all.

When I was home for Christmas my wife and I did some shopping on Broadway. As we strolled we passed the Jones Motor Company Garage (Puant's Egyptian Revival building). As I peeked in the windows I noticed a construction permit taped to the pane. In the comment section at the bottom it noted that the construction was for "facade removal" or something along those lines. I have no idea as to the whats or whys but I was more than a little shocked to see that. The facade really sets that building apart from its neighbors. Say it ain't so!

Great downtown pics, Danillo. GB really does have some terrific scenery downtown. The picture of the Cathedral from inside the courthouse and the very last picture from the Mason St. bridge are my favorites. Nice work.

The permit you refer to was for the adjacent building which is owned by the same people; and which has had its facade removed (if you recall it, it was absolutely no loss). The egyptian revival building is historically protected.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/jones_motors.jpg

It's my understanding that a restaurant is planning to move into the former Jones Motor Co., the Egyptian Revival building on Broadway. And a nice restaurant at that. It's moving there from somewhere else. The owners respect local history and historic preservation. Above photo is by Puant.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification, Nativist. And good info Tower Park. Cool setting for a restaurant.

Do you see the edge of that white building on the left of the Egyptian Revival building in the photo above? That’s a garage too and was also part of the Jones Motor Co. Well, using that construction permit others have mentioned here, they’ve taken out that ugly mansard roof and the modern white brick exterior. Behind it all is an older building with a cream-colored brick exterior. I don’t know what architectural style the older building represents – it may be just vernacular – but it’s handsome nonetheless and seems to me very restorable. Presumably, if the restaurant proposal goes through, both of the Jones Motor buildings will be used for that operation. We’ll see what happens.

I don't think the neighboring building, on which the "facade enhancements" are being done, has any particular "style", it's vernacular as Tower Park mentions. However I'll have to take a closer look at it now that it's being re-done.

As for the "Yellow BUilding", it's tiny but it's interesting to see how many people have taken an interest to it. Interesting what can happen with these little old buildings. Below is according to the state historical society:

ARCHITECTURAL/ENGINEERING SIGNIFICANCE 143 North Broadway is a rare example of the 1920s Egyptian Revival style applied to a small automobile service garage. The correct design of much of the decorative elements is impressive in so small a building and contributes to the exotic feel of the whole, an exoticism which is emphasized by the striking use of color in the differing facade elements. The significance of the building is heightened by the largely original state and the excellent condition of the whole.

I found this very neat vid of time lapse photography of the Lake Express in Milwaukee, docking for the winter http://vimeo.com/2230072?pg=embed&sec=2230072

It got me thinking, maybe Green Bay should have a ferry service of some kind to maybe, Marrinette, Sturgeon Bay, or to Milwaukee.

Howard seeks public input on U.S. 41/Wisconsin 29 redevelopment


HOWARD – The redevelopment plan for the southeast portion of the interchange area of U.S. 41 and Wisconsin 29 will be the topic of several upcoming public meetings.

The community development authority met this morning to set two public meetings for residents to get an opportunity to look at the plan, ask questions and give suggestions before members forward the plan to the village board.

The plan, which capitalizes on the Department of Transportation’s construction project for the 41-29 interchange, splits a section between Taylor Street and Packerland Drive on the south side of Wisconsin 29 into several redevelopment areas.

“The (transportation) project is driving a huge part of why this qualifies as a redevelopment area,” consultant Jim Mann told the members of the authority.

With the construction of a diamond interchange, roundabouts and a frontage road as part of the reconstruction, many of the properties will already be affected by those changes so this provides an opportunity to improve them, Mann said. There are residential, commercial and industrial properties within the area of the redevelopment zone that is also part of a tax-increment finance district.

However, the transportation project also raised some questions, specifically what would happen to the redevelopment if existing access points to the highway were cut off for some properties.

“My concern is that people who want to develop won’t be interested because of access,” authority member Jim Morrison said.

The village has requested the addition of an access road from Packerland Drive to Taylor Street that would run parallel with the railroad tracks and another access point from a roundabout on the northern part of Wisconsin 29 to connect to the south side properties, village administrator Joshua Smith said.

The village has requested the addition of an access road from Packerland Drive to Taylor Street that would run parallel with the railroad tracks and another access point from a roundabout on the northern part of Wisconsin 29 to connect to the south side properties, village administrator Joshua Smith said.

These access roads might be critical for development, as well as appeasing those who are used to moving through the area at street level.

I live in Ashwaubenon not terribly far from the 41/172 interchange and it takes a pretty long time to go from say, the Pioneer School area to the Ashwaubenon High School/Target area, even though you can almost see those buildings from the Pioneer neighborhood.

In order to keep local traffic as separate as possible from the freeway traffic, and to maintain convenience for nearby residents and businesses, these access roads at 41/29 might be important.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/jones_motors.jpg

It's my understanding that a restaurant is planning to move into the former Jones Motor Co., the Egyptian Revival building on Broadway. And a nice restaurant at that. It's moving there from somewhere else. The owners respect local history and historic preservation.

Can you provide any other detail? I'm interested to know what may be going there. I've thought for a while that could be a cool setting for a restaurant, only potential issue being parking..

I live in Ashwaubenon not terribly far from the 41/172 interchange and it takes a pretty long time to go from say, the Pioneer School area to the Ashwaubenon High School/Target area, even though you can almost see those buildings from the Pioneer neighborhood.
I used to live over there, and the 41/172 interchange does take up a lot of space. But the local street connections are actually pretty good. The distance between Oneida and Babcock is slightly over a mile, while the distance between Hansen/Carole and Cormier is under a mile. Short of a direct connection between Pioneer School and Target (wouldn't we all love a direct street between our origin and destination!), having to go two blocks in the wrong direction (west) to get across 172 and then take the street grid over to Target isn't bad at all.

These access roads might be critical for development, as well as appeasing those who are used to moving through the area at street level.

In order to keep local traffic as separate as possible from the freeway traffic, and to maintain convenience for nearby residents and businesses, these access roads at 41/29 might be important.

Well, this project will completely remove freeway traffic from the local surface streets. So Shawano and Packerland will then have the full function of local access. That should be convenient to businesses and residents.

Looking at distance again, Taylor to Packerland is under a mile. Shawano to Larsen is under 1/3 mile! I'd be all for a pedestrian connection under 41 at the RR tracks and also under 29 somewhere between Packerland and 41. But to have extra local vehicle access doesn't make too much sense to me when the access is already close by.

only potential issue being parking..
Broadway has no issues with parking. I think the whole point of the district is to allow people to park and walk, not park in a huge parking lot that obstructs the building from the street.

Maybe in a few years it wouldn't be a bad idea to build a parking ramp off street, but for now there is no need.

Can you provide any other detail? I'm interested to know what may be going there. I've thought for a while that could be a cool setting for a restaurant, only potential issue being parking..


I agree, parking can be a issue for some people & can make or break a restaurant survival. There was the copper (can't think of full name) restaurant at Dousman & Broadway, they also had parking issues. I have no idea if that contributed to the demise of the place. I thought something was suppose to move in there. But I haven't heard any update lately.

Broadway has no issues with parking. I think the whole point of the district is to allow people to park and walk, not park in a huge parking lot that obstructs the building from the street.

Maybe in a few years it wouldn't be a bad idea to build a parking ramp off street, but for now there is no need.

I'll clarify my comment. I agree that parking down the street & walking in wouldn't be a hassle...in good weather. But if you & your wife/husband/domestic partner (don't want to discriminate!) are going to an upscale restaurant, probably dressed nicely, I doubt you'd want to climb over/through snowbanks & slosh through snowy sidewalks. Restaurants are inherently risky, if I was opening one I'd want to eliminate every barrier to success that I could. That's all...

I'll clarify my comment. I agree that parking down the street & walking in wouldn't be a hassle...in good weather. But if you & your wife/husband/domestic partner (don't want to discriminate!) are going to an upscale restaurant, probably dressed nicely, I doubt you'd want to climb over/through snowbanks & slosh through snowy sidewalks. Restaurants are inherently risky, if I was opening one I'd want to eliminate every barrier to success that I could. That's all...

But we dont mind parking in a see of slush and Ice. Isn't this why we love Green Bay...

I'll clarify my comment. I agree that parking down the street & walking in wouldn't be a hassle...in good weather. But if you & your wife/husband/domestic partner (don't want to discriminate!) are going to an upscale restaurant, probably dressed nicely, I doubt you'd want to climb over/through snowbanks & slosh through snowy sidewalks. Restaurants are inherently risky, if I was opening one I'd want to eliminate every barrier to success that I could. That's all...

I see what you are saying. I guess what it comes down to is, if someone's opening a restaurant in that location, they presumably are aware of the parking situation as they plan their restaurant. While there won't be a large lot right at their front door, they must feel that is offset by being in Broadway's more urban environment. So there are pluses and minuses and it's up to them to weigh those in relation to the place they want to open up. In the end, people can break down proximity of parking and a whole set of such factors for anything downtown, but if the product is good and the service is good and the prices are reasonable for those products/services, people will happily walk a block or two to get there.

Can you provide any other detail? I'm interested to know what may be going there. I've thought for a while that could be a cool setting for a restaurant, only potential issue being parking.. I wish I could say more, but I'm not sure what's been made public yet. I'll check around and may post more information later. As for parking, as in the big cities, people could park on the street, seems to me. There's also a lot nearby that perhaps would be available for use after hours.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde.jpg

Here’s the latest installment in the Press-Gazette's ongoing series on local historic architecture. It features the McDonald’s drive-in sign on Shawano Avenue. It’s been restored to what the article says is its near-original 1959 look.

The building in the background in the Press-Gazette photo above by Warren Gerds is actually not the McDonald’s itself but another building next door. (For better photos, see the slide show in the first link below.) With all due respect, wish they had also done a historic renovation of the McDonald’s building too, which is ca. ‘80s modern. I’ve seen McDonald’s in other cities that replicate the design of the original drive-ins. Handsome.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090106/GPG0803/301060049/-1/permgall

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/99999999/GPG0101/399990836/-1/specials&theme=GPGARCHITECTURE&template=theme

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde.jpg

Here’s the latest installment in the Press-Gazette's ongoing series on local historic architecture. It features the McDonald’s drive-in sign on Shawano Avenue. It’s been restored to what the article says is its near-original 1959 look.

The building in the background in the Press-Gazette photo above is actually not the McDonald’s itself but another building next door. (For better photos, see the slide show in the first link below.) With all due respect, wish they had also done a historic renovation of the McDonald’s building too, which is ca. ‘80s modern. I’ve seen McDonald’s in other cities that replicate the design of the original drive-ins. Handsome.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090106/GPG0803/301060049/-1/permgall

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/99999999/GPG0101/399990836/-1/specials&theme=GPGARCHITECTURE&template=theme

Here's a closer look at the sign:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1108/1357839583_93b2206662.jpg

I'll clarify my comment. I agree that parking down the street & walking in wouldn't be a hassle...in good weather. But if you & your wife/husband/domestic partner (don't want to discriminate!) are going to an upscale restaurant, probably dressed nicely, I doubt you'd want to climb over/through snowbanks & slosh through snowy sidewalks. Restaurants are inherently risky, if I was opening one I'd want to eliminate every barrier to success that I could. That's all...

I wonder...is the parking thing just perception? Just because there isn't a large parking lot surrounding this building, does that mean there isn't enough? Looking at the air photo (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=44.517318~-88.021186&style=h&lvl=19&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15772503&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1), I can see there are dozens of parking spots on the street right in front of this building, and more behind it, and still more parking lots to the east toward the river along Pearl St, all within a couple hundred feet.

What's the expected capacity of this & nearby places?

The restaurants along, say, Oneida St--I'd guess those are higher capacity and the walk from the parking spot is going to be at least as far--only instead of walking along a sidewalk along the way, you'd have to walk a couple hundred feet through a nasty parking lot.

I suppose one option is to obliterate all buidlings surrounding this one and create more parking lots. Why not just pick the best building or two along Broadway, leave that one, and then wipe out the rest for parking lots? That seems to have been the trendy thing to do. Of course you know I'm being facetious.

Parking Ramps
I used to think that parking ramps would enable more peple to park nearby downtown stuff, and that the ramps might entice people to use them because the cars are protected from the elements (snow, rain, etc). HOwever, parking ramps really suck, in some ways worse than surface parking. People avoid ramps if at all possible, really. Let's face it, parking in all forms might seem "desireable" on teh surface but in the end the parking ramps & lots are just "dead zones", they destroy character, they just suck, especially in a downtown. The knee-jerk reaction is, "we need parking" but in the end, it kills. Cognitive dissonance, I guess you could call it. There is a better way.

As for the McDonald's "architecture"...Uh boy....That "architecture" series just took a serious nose dive. OK OK it's just my opinion, it's all a matter of "taste" I suppose, but considering there were hundreds or thousands of exact replicas of this across the country and world, I'd rather see this series focus on the uniquely Green Bay. We have enough unique architecture here, we don't have to pretend that the "golden arches" are something special, nostalgic as they might be for many of us...

About parking, i think any new parking lot/structure should be built under ground with the occupiable (that word right?) space in the floor(s) above. Even if its a one story building, the parking should be forced underneath. When i was in New Zealand, there was a department store basically raised up, and the parking was underneath, not underground but underneath the store. (laugh, it might have been a kmart of all stores)

individual parking lots/structures are a waste of space.

Downtown Green Bay's challenge with underground parking is the water table. There would have to be expensive sealed "cofferdams" around these things. On Nicolet Bank, they did put parking sort-of underground, but only halfway under. That's why they put the raised "patio" thing along Washington St--It wasn't primarily to create a cool patio space, it was more so they could get enough parking underneath. Most architecture critics look at that raised "patio" along Washington St and recognize that it for what it is---lipstick on a pig.

Parking is never pretty, too much ruins a downtown even if it seems like it's "needed". We've got to mix in more transit downtown. I'm not opposed to all parking, but it can be "distributed" better around the downtown periphery, maybe then attractive, enhanced transit could bring people in (in my mind it's the trolley, that's why I harp on it so much). Nobody has yet been able to convince me that this isn't the best way.

P.S. Jschmuck--I spent some time in New Zealand too--mostly the South Island but also Auckland and we drove along the northern part...I got caught in a nasty rip tide and almost got washed out to sea from the northern tip--Had that happened you never would have had to deal with my blathering here!!

lol puant...the blathering keeps us entertained and EVEN informed. A lot of water you gotta be careful around out there Puant...and sharks

Anyways, then new parking areas should be the first floor(s) of new buildings and not necessarilly underground, like in many other cities. Thats how many new condo towers in Milwaukee are being built.

I cant agree more about a trolley either (obviously)
Anyone know if the Washington St. ramp can have floors added above for office/residential use?

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde.jpg

Here’s the latest installment in the Press-Gazette's ongoing series on local historic architecture. It features the McDonald’s drive-in sign on Shawano Avenue. It’s been restored to what the article says is its near-original 1959 look.

The building in the background in the Press-Gazette photo above is actually not the McDonald’s itself but another building next door. (For better photos, see the slide show in the first link below.) With all due respect, wish they had also done a historic renovation of the McDonald’s building too, which is ca. ‘80s modern. I’ve seen McDonald’s in other cities that replicate the design of the original drive-ins. Handsome.
The McD's on North Jackson St (WI 76) just north of Murdock Av (US 45) in Oshkosh was redone into that 'retro' look back, I think, in the mid 1990s. It still looks pretty good.

Mike

I remember going to that McDonalds back when it was the ONLY McDonalds in Green Bay (God, am I old!) It had no inside seating, just windows you would walk up to to place your order. They originally hired only males to work there as well, or maybe no females wanted to work there.

I wonder...is the parking thing just perception? ...

maybe. I just know that it's a huge pet peeve of mine to go anywhere in the winter & have cold, wet feet by the time I get there. It's not too much different in a parking lot, except that with on-street parking the snowbanks tend to get in the way. My wife & I were at daily buzz last week & she almost fell trying go up the "path" worn into the snowbank to get to the sidewalk. That was my most recent memory, & the thought behind my comment--not so much the volume of parking available, but the convenience factor. I'm not saying it would discourage me from going somewhere, but I could see it being a factor for some people.

maybe. I just know that it's a huge pet peeve of mine to go anywhere in the winter & have cold, wet feet by the time I get there. It's not too much different in a parking lot, except that with on-street parking the snowbanks tend to get in the way. My wife & I were at daily buzz last week & she almost fell trying go up the "path" worn into the snowbank to get to the sidewalk. That was my most recent memory, & the thought behind my comment--not so much the volume of parking available, but the convenience factor. I'm not saying it would discourage me from going somewhere, but I could see it being a factor for some people.

My most recent memory was trudging through the slush at Cub Foods, thinking to myself that they have been doing a great job at keeping the parking lot clear considering the conditions. Which made me wonder why more places dont do a better job at clearing the sidewalk? Maybe because snow removel is costly or where do you put it or maybe it is just one of those things the city should do?

I see one of the parcels is being finished inside on the lower level of the new parking ramp. It's the parcel right next to the drive through bank. They are putting drywall up now. There is no sign indicating it's leased to any particular business or what it will be used for. Anyone know?

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090108/GPG03/90108080

Good to see that Little Tokyo is doing well. It's the sort of place that defies preconceived notions of what can or can't succeed in Green Bay:

Theirs was the first sushi bar in Green Bay and Amy Lee admitted to doubts about how it would be accepted, but her fears were quickly squelched.

“Sushi’s become very popular in the Green Bay area. I didn’t think it would do well. I was surprised,” she said. “Broadway is good. Our customers find us. A lot of people don’t know we exist, but we are still getting a lot of new customers.”

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/gb28.jpghttp://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde-1.jpg

Yes, great to see that Little Tokyo is expanding into the vacant space next to it on Broadway in the same building. The building is seen above in the Broadway photo by Danillo just to the left of the orange building, The Gift Itself. Thanks for the post.

By the way, Danillo, been meaning to let you know that the recent downtown photos you posted are stunning, some of the best I’ve ever seen. Hope you don’t mind I used the one of Broadway above. (If I should not have done that, let me know.) The other Little Tokyo photo above is by Richard Ryman in today’s Press-Gazette.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=775206


Little Tokyo, Green Bay's 1st sushi bar, to expand

BY RICHARD RYMAN • RRYMAN@GREENBAYPRESSGAZETTE.COM • JANUARY 9, 2009

Little Tokyo restaurant is expanding into the space next door that was home to Lee's Oriental Grocery.

Amy Lee, who owned both businesses at 121 N. Broadway, said Lee's Oriental Grocery was operated by Mae Lee, her mother-in-law. Mae Lee retired and Amy Lee said running the grocery store and the restaurant — and raising two children — would be too much.

Besides, the restaurant is doing well and needs the space.

"We are actually increasing business," Lee said. "I deal with a lot of corporate people."

Lee said the former grocery building will be used for parties, social gatherings, corporate meetings and overflow. They are remodeling the space.

Lee said the closing of the grocery generated rumors the restaurant would close. Not so, which is good news to On Broadway Inc.

"It's a very important part of our restaurant mix in the Broadway District," said Kelly Czypinski, director of On Broadway. "Sushi is popular and Little Tokyo is iconic in our district."

Lee and her husband, Xa, opened the restaurant seven years ago after operating the grocery for about eight years. They started at 157 N. Broadway before moving to the current building and opening the restaurant.

Theirs was the first sushi bar in Green Bay and Amy Lee admitted to doubts about how it would be accepted, but her fears were quickly squelched.

"Sushi's become very popular in the Green Bay area. I didn't think it would do well. I was surprised," she said. "Broadway is good. Our customers find us. A lot of people don't know we exist, but we are still getting a lot of new customers."

Lee said she gets a lot of out-of-town diners from the Upper Peninsula and Door County, as well as big city types who are used to sushi being available. One customer made that a requirement of accepting a job here, she said.

Czypinski said expansion plans are good news, especially in the midst of a recession.

"The restaurant itself is doing very well. We are excited she's looking to expand and getting into hosting meetings. It's the perfect time to expand," she said.

Lee said the uniqueness of a Japanese restaurant probably is a help during the recession. It isn't a steakhouse and its prices have been stable.

"I'm not rushing to get rich. I want to pay our bills. I love what I do. I have a passion for it," she said.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bflystore_small.gif


First came the good news, now the bad. Butterfly Books, located for close to two decades in downtown De Pere, is closing. Photo above by Butterfly Books.

JANUARY 9, 2009

Butterfly Books, 118 N. Broadway, De Pere, will close on Jan. 31. Owners Mark and Barbara Wilson are moving to Utah in the spring. Mark Wilson is transferring from Green Bay to another Procter & Gamble Co. facility. The store will offer a 25-percent discount on books and 30-percent discount on puzzles, Webkinz items, games and stuffed toys. The Wilsons bought the 17-year-old children's bookstore 5½ years ago and have seven employees. Hours are 9 a.m.-6 p.m. Mondays through Fridays, 9 a.m.-4 p.m. Saturdays. The telephone number is (920) 339-1133. The Web site is www.butterflybooks.com.— Richard Ryman/Press-Gazette

There are other developments in the Green Bay area that I'm looking forward to besides the downtown development. Other developments I'm looking forward to include:

The upgrading of US Highway 41 to Interstate 41.

The redevelopment of East Town Mall.

The redevelopment of Military Avenue.

Yeah, I try to get excited about other developments in other parts of the city too. Why do we focus so much on the downtown? It's interesting when you think about that.

I am interested also in the stadium area, particularly the "pedestrian boulevard".

Also the expansion of Bay Beach interests me. The land is acquired, there is a chance that we could get a new roller coaster and other fun things up there someday.

I live in the NE part of the city near UWGB. It's a nice place to raise kids but it's not really as exciting to me as the downtown. In the probably 20 different places I've lived in my life (in maybe 10 different cities), this is the farthest from any sort of downtown, the most "suburban" place I've ever lived, and while it's not all bad, I do miss living in or near the city center.

There are other developments in the Green Bay area that I'm looking forward to besides the downtown development. Other developments I'm looking forward to include:

The upgrading of US Highway 41 to Interstate 41.

Just curious: What is so exciting about that? It is just a shield, and IMO is a waste of money just to change a bunch of signs. I think the economic benefits are about zilch. Any business with any brains won't consider I-41 to be any better than US 41, since freeway access is what they really want, not Interstate access.

Now, if you're talking about the upcoming US 41 expansion project (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/us41expansion/brown-index.htm), then yes, that will be very interesting. But don't confuse that with the change to I-41. They're completely separate things. The US 41 expansion project is an actual project with actual value that is actually going to happen. The I-41 changeover is just a line item that a local Congressman slipped into a bill that passed a few years ago. There don't seem to be any big supporters and there isn't a timeline. US 41 is already Interstate quality and could be changed over tomorrow to I-41 if there was a will for it and the money to waste on changing signs.

^^ A change to interstate status puts the areas that the highway passes through, on the map so to speak. The area becomes better known/recognized. The funding structure also changes to 90% federal and 10% local.

I found out that the Interstate 41 signs will go up later this year, once the upgrades are completed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_41#Future

^^ A change to interstate status puts the areas that the highway passes through, on the map so to speak.

Huh, I didn't know that there were masses of people ready to take interest in Grand Chute, if only the freeway passing through had blue signs instead of white ones.

I found out that the Interstate 41 signs will go up later this year, once the upgrades are completed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_41#Future

I hadn't heard that before. Any other sources that this is true, because, well, an uncited reference on Wikipedia isn't especially meaningful to me.

I guess I'll just have to be counted as one who isn't too excited about the change. I guess all things being equal I'd rather have it be an Interstate, but if anyone asked me why I couldn't really give a good reason, therefore my lack of enthusiasm.

I also put ZERO credence into that Wiki article - WisDOT has not even been assigned an I-route number for US 41. WisDOT has suggested four different potential numbers, '41', '55', '57' and a '3di' for I-43, to AASHTO, but no decision has yet been made. My preference, based on how it would wire into the rest of the I-system, is '57'.

Also, yes, 'promotion' to I-route status *IS* a major item to the nationwide marketing and locating consulting gurus - and it is all about the brand name. All else being equal with the road, MANY companies will, by policy, turn their noses up at potential new markets if they aren't 'on an interstate', even if they are on highways that are otherwise fully interstate compatible and are directly and conveniently connected to the I-system.

Mike

I found another link:

http://www.interstate-guide.com/i-041.html

^^ A change to interstate status puts the areas that the highway passes through, on the map so to speak. The area becomes better known/recognized.

I doubt Fond du Lac will be any more or less well known in California because of I-41.

Also, yes, 'promotion' to I-route status *IS* a major item to the nationwide marketing and locating consulting gurus - and it is all about the brand name. All else being equal with the road, MANY companies will, by policy, turn their noses up at potential new markets if they aren't 'on an interstate', even if they are on highways that are otherwise fully interstate compatible and are directly and conveniently connected to the I-system.

I find it hard to believe that any well-run companies would automatically disqualify a location because of the lack of a blue highway shield. That just doesn't make any sense from a business standpoint.

The funding structure also changes to 90% federal and 10% local.

That is incorrect. While there is some slight variation in funding for Interstates, the 90% federal match you speak of was only for the initial construction of the Interstate system. Reconstruction of State, US, and Interstate highways fall under the standard 50/50 system, plus any pork a legislator can get for a particular project.

I found another link:

http://www.interstate-guide.com/i-041.html

Do you have anything from a government or newspaper website? Until then, I'd recommend not believing anything about I-41.

Having thought about the I-41 thing some more, I guess it will be kind of cool. I don't think it will help anything really, but it certainly can't hurt, and I guess it seems more "official" if that makes sense. While we're at it then WI-172 should become an Intersate as well! Same with WI-441. Could probably be I-441, i think. Would the type of road 172 is need to be an even or odd hundreds number. I know odd-hundreds are for spurs (like 794) and even for bypasses (894), but I don't know what 172 would count as. Plus I suppose that oune could be either _41 or _43. But heck, if we're renaming roads so that we're served by interstates, we might as well go all the way, right?

They did the same interstate thing in recent years to U.S. 51, the major north-south highway in central Wisconsin. It's now I-39.

The redevelopment of East Town Mall.



I haven't heard about this. What's in the works for East Town Mall?

Potential, tentative news development over on Packerland Annals. Be interesting to see if anything happens.

packerland.blogspot.com

Looks like the two Cub Food's stores will close in Green Bay and both are at prime locations for great redevelopment. The west side store is at Military and Mason Streets (Military Avenue reconstruction coming soon) and the east side store could be worked into the East Town Mall redevelopment/upgrade. Both those stores are hideous, so hopefully they will tear them both down instead or something like a costume store moving in there for one month of the year...

Sorry to those losing jobs - but hopeful for the future.

Interesting article on JSonline about Milwaukee population projections through 2035.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/37416959.html

The report that JSonline uses for the estimates is from state demographer David Egan-Robertson and his report is about other areas of the state as well. Brown County is expected to have an increase of 40% in its population (90,387 more people) between 2000 and 2035, page 21 in the report. Below is a link to the pdf report.

http://www.doa.state.wi.us/docview.asp?locid=9&docid=2108

^^They forgot to account for the famine, pestilence, and war.

OK that's a little overly gloomy. But one more gloomy prediciotn that's even more likely is that we'll see lots of national chain stores go down and die out over the next year or so.... Both restaurants and retail. Some will surprise us, because we think they're "strong" companies.

However on the bright side, these casualties will open up oppourtunities for local companies...the market will demand quality local goods. So I'd say that's an opportunity for local entrepeneurs to fill in the niche that will be left in the wake of destruction of the national companies.

^^ YAH, turn that frown upside down! not to mention the rise in commuting costs which will bring people closer to there jobs, whether it be the CBD or suburban jobsites.

Now what is this stuff i hear about the east side mall? is it all official?

Yea, recession-and the other worse word also opens doors for other lines of business as well. As long as diversity stays with us, we will be fine.

Unfortunately Quad Graphics announced they will be laying off 550 employees from all sectors. I have an uncle who works for them in the office in the milwaukee area...havent heard anything yet.

Now what is this stuff i hear about the east side mall? is it all official?
^^ Yes. I have found a video from last month that sheds some light on the subject. Right now, only half of the project is done, with the interior and exterior paint job finished, new flat panel TVs installed, new light fixtures, and a an opened-up center court. The next phase of the project includes a renovation of the mall entrance, new pylon signs, and a new parking lot. They are also trying to attract unique stores.


http://www.truveo.com/Green-Bay-Mall-Gets-Makeover/id/3267394124

Today's news on the passenger train:

Gov. Doyle pushes high-speed rail for stimulus funds
By Paul Gores of the Journal Sentinel

Posted: Jan. 12, 2009 3:17 p.m.

Federal economic stimulus money could be used to build a Midwestern high-speed passenger rail system that would link Chicago to Minneapolis with stops at Milwaukee, Madison and even Green Bay, Gov. Jim Doyle told Milwaukee business leaders today.

Doyle made the comments while laying out to the Greater Milwaukee Committee some of his priorities for the billions in federal money likely to be approved by Congress to help revive the struggling economy. He said that the economic crisis presented an "opportunity to do some things that we've dreamed about doing for years." A Midwest high-speed train system is one such project, he said.

"Imagine a high-speed train from Chicago to Milwaukee to Madison to the Twin Cities, with a spur that goes to Green Bay, and that connects up with other major population centers in the Midwest. We've sat around and talked about this for decades. But now we may well have the opportunity, somewhat depending on how this federal legislation is structured, to be able to make that kind of big-time investment," Doyle said.

Asked in an interview after the meeting whether there was evidence enough travelers would use such a system, Doyle said he believes they will if it's designed to save them the time and hassle of existing forms of transportation.

"If you could get from the Twin Cities to Chicago in equal the time it takes you to go to the airports and fight through everything and you can end up in downtown Twin Cities or downtown Chicago and it's on a good, new high-speed comfortable train, then I think you're going to see a lot of demand for it - particularly as it comes through Madison and Milwaukee," Doyle said.

Doyle said he hoped such a system could be profitable, but said it might require government subsidies to operate.

"Just as we heavily subsidize our road transportation system," Doyle said. "We subsidize heavily our air transportation system. I don't think people should say rail is somehow not subject to subsidy when the others are."

The GOv did an OK job explaining how trains can be convenient enough for people to use, though I wish he'd been a bit more convincing on that.

What bothers me more, however, is that he did not mention how the train could result in cost AVOIDANCE...how so? If a certain percentage of travellers, say 10% or so, used the train, that means less demand for highway capacity. ANd less demand for highway capacity means fewer lanes. A single highway project to add lanes for example can cost hundreds of millions of dollars---much more than a train. Sorry to repeat myself on this point but it's important because to the general public, the train is nothing more than "dreamy ways to spend spend spend our tax dollars" but in reality, I think it could reduce spending in the long run.

As long as diversity stays with us, we will be fine.



Can you explain what you mean by that?

I doubt Fond du Lac will be any more or less well known in California because of I-41.



I find it hard to believe that any well-run companies would automatically disqualify a location because of the lack of a blue highway shield. That just doesn't make any sense from a business standpoint.



That is incorrect. While there is some slight variation in funding for Interstates, the 90% federal match you speak of was only for the initial construction of the Interstate system. Reconstruction of State, US, and Interstate highways fall under the standard 50/50 system, plus any pork a legislator can get for a particular project.



Do you have anything from a government or newspaper website? Until then, I'd recommend not believing anything about I-41.
^^ I found a Post Crescent article confirming the I-41 development: http://www.postcrescent.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/99999999/APC0101/709060619

^^ I found a Post Crescent article confirming the I-41 development: http://www.postcrescent.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/99999999/APC0101/709060619
Excuse me, but did you actually *READ* that article???

It mentioned nothing that we don't already know - that US 41's progressive upgrades over the years has and continues to make more and more of it interstate-compatible.

The relevant part:
""We are moving ahead, but there is quite a bit of work left yet," Vraney said.

Naming the highway is one unresolved issue. Vraney said it wouldn't necessarily be called Interstate 41. (emphasis added by me)

"There are different guidelines within the Federal Highway Administration that we need to follow," he said. "It could be something different.""

Mike

Excuse me, but did you actually *READ* that article???

It mentioned nothing that we don't already know - that US 41's progressive upgrades over the years has and continues to make more and more of it interstate-compatible.

The relevant part:
""We are moving ahead, but there is quite a bit of work left yet," Vraney said.

Naming the highway is one unresolved issue. Vraney said it wouldn't necessarily be called Interstate 41. (emphasis added by me)

"There are different guidelines within the Federal Highway Administration that we need to follow," he said. "It could be something different.""

Mike

I read about it. I know they haven't thought about naming (or changing the number) of the highway yet. Yes, it could possibly be something different, like Interstate 7. It is still in the planning stages.

Good post, Puant, from the Journal Sentinel. Great to see the governor talking about expanding passenger rail to Green Bay from Milwaukee. For that to happen, though, an environmental impact statement, it seems, needs to be completed along the possible track routes between the two cities. As previously noted, such an environmental report already exists for connecting Madison and Milwaukee with passenger rail, and that project, it seems, may now be “shovel-ready.” We need an EIS for the Green Bay-Milwaukee leg to move forward.

Nice follow-up work, Green Bay Sponge, on the conversion of 41 to an interstate highway. It’ll happen, but perhaps not this year as apparently once anticipated. I expect this is a big deal – and rightfully so - to businesses, tourism people and chamber-types, particularly in the Fox Cities.

I think the March closings of the two Cub Foods stores in Green Bay are a major blow to Military Avenue and the East Town Mall area. Given everything that’s going on, my guess is it'll be years before any new business development takes their place. We’ll see.

Night Rider, i was talking about having a diverse amount of jobs; manufacturing, health care, high tech, service, etc... unlike other states that rely heavily on one sector.

Well- since I just mentioned Cub Foods a few posts back I feel like I am responsible for their demise. Actually we will miss the store, after years of shopping there you become familiar with the place. It does help that Copps is just down the road and they built a new store which is very nice. I really hope that there are some major changes planned for East Town. The whole area including Kmart I feel is very underutilized and discombulated(sp?). I am not sure what could be done with the current configuration of buildings but something needs to be done to break up the monstrosity of the parking barrier between the stores along Mason and the mall itself. Not sure where everyone sits regarding Bay Shore Mall (milwaukee area) but the changes there were substantial. While I dont think anything like that will happen I would like to see more then a new entrance and new paint.

As far as Military Ave goes I think the opportunity there is very beneficial before construction happens- access IMO really sucks. The cub building could be razed and shops/offices built up against both Mason and Military and then the parking could be set back behind the stores. That would allow the option to make the shops much more accessible via alt. transportation.
Of course these are just my thoughts...

The cub building could be razed and shops/offices built up against both Mason and Military and then the parking could be set back behind the stores. That would allow the option to make the shops much more accessible via alt. transportation.
Of course these are just my thoughts...

I agree with that scenario of building up to the street with parking in the rear. The same could be said for Van Boxtel Ford/Jeep on Military. All those vehicles sitting there in a parking lot take up too much space that could be built up for shops/offices/retail in the future. Car dealerships should, IMO, be out on the edge of the city. I think we'll see a similar circumstance as 50 years ago when dealerships left downtown for the outskirts. Now those outskirts are catching up with them and I think it's time to move farther out of the city, closer to freeway access. The same thing with the Gandrud dealerships hidden behind East Town. Wouldn't there be a greater tax base if those lots were developed?

I agree with that scenario of building up to the street with parking in the rear. The same could be said for Van Boxtel Ford/Jeep on Military. All those vehicles sitting there in a parking lot take up too much space that could be built up for shops/offices/retail in the future. Car dealerships should, IMO, be out on the edge of the city. I think we'll see a similar circumstance as 50 years ago when dealerships left downtown for the outskirts. Now those outskirts are catching up with them and I think it's time to move farther out of the city, closer to freeway access. The same thing with the Gandrud dealerships hidden behind East Town. Wouldn't there be a greater tax base if those lots were developed?

There probably would be a greater tax base of those lots were developed, but that would depend on the value of the structural improvements. This area ever redeveloping is highly unlikely. Auto Plaza Way is "out of the way" and quite hidden as East Town Mall turns its back to this area. This whole area could be redeveloped into something ala Bayshore, but I seriously doubt that will happen. These will remain car dealerships as long as America has automakers. And more than likely probably turn into used car delaerships when we don't. It just isn't an area that receive a lot of pass by traffic because of the street pattern and poor visibility from a major thoroughfare.

I agree with that scenario of building up to the street with parking in the rear. The same could be said for Broadway Ford/Hyundai on Military. All those vehicles sitting there in a parking lot take up too much space that could be built up for shops/offices/retail in the future. Car dealerships should, IMO, be out on the edge of the city. I think we'll see a similar circumstance as 50 years ago when dealerships left downtown for the outskirts. Now those outskirts are catching up with them and I think it's time to move farther out of the city, closer to freeway access. The same thing with the Gandrud dealerships hidden behind East Town. Wouldn't there be a greater tax base if those lots were developed?

Fixed. Van Boxtel is now owned by Broadway Automotive. The Jeep dealer has since been converted to a Hyundai dealership.

Thanks for correction Sponge, I guess I was outdated.

Green Bay 4 Life: I went to the Bayshore website to learn more about it and I see what you mean about the East Town area being developed like that. East Town may not have direct visibility from I-43 but it's only a mile from two exits, (Mason St, and Manitowoc Rd.) I'm wondering how much the visibility factor plays into the marketing success of a development.

I'm wondering how much the visibility factor plays into the marketing success of a development.

Judging by the lack of progress on downtown developments and there lack of visibility I'm guessing that how visible a project is plays a major factor. All the more reason to turn Ashland Ave. into a high speed route downtown.

I think the redevelopment of East Town Mall is heading in the right direction. I like what I see so far. I hope it looks like what's in the pictures. I noticed that the design elements are similar to what's used on St. Agnes Square on Military and 9th on the west side.

East Town Mall (http://www.joneslanglasalle.com/microsites/retail_pdfs/factsheets/easttown.pdf)

Circuit City, which had just moved into a new store on Oneida Street in Ashwaubenon next to Barnes & Noble, announced today it’s closing all of its stores nationwide. Other chains I’m aware of with larger stores in the Green Bay market closing down are Linens N Things (Green Bay Plaza) and Steve & Barry’s (Shoppes at the Village). Plus the two Cub Foods stores here. And perhaps some chain stores inside the local malls as well. Karcz Ford in Pulaski earlier. While I'm on the topic of the local economy, four bank companies with headquarters or branches in Brown County are receiving federal TARP funds. That’s the Troubled Assets Relief Program.

I hate bring more bad news, but here it is:

Marinette Marine loses appeal of contract award

By Rick Barrett of the Journal Sentinel

Posted: Jan. 12, 2009

Marinette Marine Corp. has lost an appeal of a U.S. Coast Guard shipbuilding contract, valued at up to $1.5 billion, that was awarded to a competitor.

The decision by the Government Accountability Office was confirmed Monday by federal officials.

Last October, Marinette protested the contract award for construction of Coast Guard cutters to Bollinger Shipyards Inc., of Lockport, La

Full story at: http://www.jsonline.com/business/37462204.html

I hate bring more bad news, but here it is:

Marinette Marine loses appeal of contract award

By Rick Barrett of the Journal Sentinel

Posted: Jan. 12, 2009

Marinette Marine Corp. has lost an appeal of a U.S. Coast Guard shipbuilding contract, valued at up to $1.5 billion, that was awarded to a competitor.

The decision by the Government Accountability Office was confirmed Monday by federal officials.

Last October, Marinette protested the contract award for construction of Coast Guard cutters to Bollinger Shipyards Inc., of Lockport, La

Full story at: http://www.jsonline.com/business/37462204.html


Be interesting to see if Bollinger made any political donations to any politican that might have any say in who gets the contract. I see it has come to light recently that favors were being done for companies, then magically donations were being received. I won't name names.

Be interesting to see if Bollinger made any political donations to any politican that might have any say in who gets the contract. I see it has come to light recently that favors were being done for companies, then magically donations were being received. I won't name names.

Let's hope that with a contract of that size, $1.5 Billion, investigation into the deal will continue after the appeal process. Maybe it can turn around again and come back this way. It would have been a nice boost to the local economy.

Right now, in the dead of Winter, I want to think about Summer events like farmers markets and festivals. Maybe a Bullfrogs game on a former brownfield site.

I'm not in town right now, so is progress still continuing on CityDeck, or has it been fairly slow going?

I'm not in town right now, so is progress still continuing on CityDeck, or has it been fairly slow going?

I haven't actually walked down to the waterfront & looked. But from the road it appears they are working quite a bit, but the progress is not real visible. Maybe someone else has a better view.