Green Bay Development News [Archive] - Page 13

jerkylips999

February 23rd, 2009, 04:39 PM

In Todays PG Paul Jadin explains very clearly why rail service in Green Bay Is never going to work even though the current dimwit in office believes it is a great idea...

Jadin was a member of former Gov. Tommy Thompson's Blue Ribbon Task Force on Passenger Rail Service nearly 10 years ago.

"We initially explored the possibility of a train traveling 79 mph, with four stops" between Milwaukee and Green Bay, Jadin said. "It would take 4.5 hours. Who is going to get on a train for 4.5 hours when you can drive it in two?

"We did look at the possibility of speeds of 110 mph, with significant track improvement, would obviously increase the cost of such a project. We found that even if you had a train that could travel 110 mph, with multiple stops between Milwaukee and here, there would be little incentive to use it. It'd still take in excess of three hours."

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090223/GPG0101/902230528/1978

I read this article this morning also, & it sounds fishy. 4.5 hours to get to MKE? There is just no way. I routinely take the amtrack from MKE to Chicago. That's about a 1 1/2 hour drive without traffic (which basically never happens). The train makes probably about 4 stops, stopping for maybe 5 minutes at each one. The trip takes 1 hour 50 minutes.

How can these stops make the trip take about 20 minutes longer, but from GB to MKE the stops make it take 2 HOURS longer? Ain't no way...

I don't recall the proposed stops, but I would guess something like Depere, Appleton, Oshkosh, Fondulac, west side of MKE/Menominee Falls area, & then downtown. Even if each stop adds 10 minutes to the trip (5 minutes stopped, a few minutes getting back up to speed, that's 50 minuites added to the trip. At 79 mph, the trip should take 1 hour 31 minutes (thank you Excel..) Add in the 50 minutes for stops & you're at 2 hours 21 minutes.

Here's another factor to consider. About once a week I drive from GB to MKE for work. I rent a car. Car rental, after all the taxes, unnecessary fees, etc., is about $90. Gas for the round trip is usually around $25 (at today's prices). Parking at the airport is $6/day. So that gives a grand total of about $120/trip. Last time I took the train from MKE to Chicago, it was about $50 round trip.

I guess the one good thing to take from this article is that they are talking about rail transit.

HermosaBeachBoy

February 23rd, 2009, 08:06 PM

Hey Guys,
Does anyone have the latest pics of dt GB, specifically the boardwalk and WM developments? I'm thinking about purchasing a unit at WM, but am unsure whether or not it will ever take off, like Astor Place.

Hi Fillmore; For latest pic (and best I've seen - thanks Danillo) go to page 147; post #2934 provided by Danillo a couple of weeks ago. It' looks the same today.

Go to www.watermarkgb.com for WaterMark website for more info. Don't let the interior photo's fool you they are from a condo next door (Riverfront Lofts).The exterior and interior of WaterMark remains completely unfinished warehouse seen in the middle of picture mentioned above.

I signed up for Condo Unit but don't expect any real action for some years to come unless the stimulus does the magic and it all takes off which if it does I will almost need a defibrillator!

Also check out Riverside Place (www.riverside-place.com) also on Fox river ready to move in as is Riverfront Lofts.

Tower Park

February 23rd, 2009, 10:19 PM

When I look at the Columbus/WBAY building's front steps, I often have this memory from when I was a kid way back a long time ago....I remember seeing TV footage of Vince Lombardi walking down the steps of that building along Jefferson St. It was just ordinary footage of old Vince but for some reason the context sticks in my mind.

That TV footage you saw may have been Lombardi coming from the filming or taping of his weekly half-hour “The Vince Lombardi Show” at the WBAY studios with local sportscaster Al Sampson. There are tapes of that show in existence. Great stuff.

I read this article this morning also, & it sounds fishy. 4.5 hours to get to MKE? There is just no way. I routinely take the amtrack from MKE to Chicago. That's about a 1 1/2 hour drive without traffic (which basically never happens). The train makes probably about 4 stops, stopping for maybe 5 minutes at each one. The trip takes 1 hour 50 minutes.

How can these stops make the trip take about 20 minutes longer, but from GB to MKE the stops make it take 2 HOURS longer? Ain't no way...

I don't recall the proposed stops, but I would guess something like Depere, Appleton, Oshkosh, Fondulac, west side of MKE/Menominee Falls area, & then downtown. Even if each stop adds 10 minutes to the trip (5 minutes stopped, a few minutes getting back up to speed, that's 50 minuites added to the trip. At 79 mph, the trip should take 1 hour 31 minutes (thank you Excel..) Add in the 50 minutes for stops & you're at 2 hours 21 minutes.

Here's another factor to consider. About once a week I drive from GB to MKE for work. I rent a car. Car rental, after all the taxes, unnecessary fees, etc., is about $90. Gas for the round trip is usually around $25 (at today's prices). Parking at the airport is $6/day. So that gives a grand total of about $120/trip. Last time I took the train from MKE to Chicago, it was about $50 round trip.

I guess the one good thing to take from this article is that they are talking about rail transit.

I can't believe the president of the local chamber of commerce spoke out in opposition to passenger rail in Green Bay. Is that what chambers of commerce do?

I've always thought that downtown Green Bay has done very well for itself over the past few years. Sometimes it’s tough to live in a city and reflect on all the change since you see the city every day. But from what I've seen, downtown Green Bay has changed dramatically since 2004, and that change will only continue after the economy picks up.

Well said. I think what frustrates people a lot is that downtown projects here often take years and years to happen. It's also frustrating to see the lack of a major retail presence and the hubbub that brings, but that hardly makes downtown Green Bay unique compared to other cities. It's a sign of the times for now, unfortunately. If you look at downtown Green Bay in terms of decades — 2000, 1990, 1980, etc. — or even quarter-centuries — 2000, 1975, 1950, 1925, etc. — the changes are dramatic. The mall turned out to be a big mistake, but many good things have happened. Some downtowns around the country have completely stagnated or gone into reverse.

We have [in Green Bay] . . . a population with three kinds of people, one who thinks we should be some kind of yuppie land, another who think that nothing should ever change and the middle class who would like to see changes that fit more into the family lifestyle.

What a bunch of bullshit.

jerkylips999

February 23rd, 2009, 10:55 PM

Jim Schmitt - spelunker?

Let the caving begin..

Schmitt: Let's look at alternatives to Military Ave. roundabout plan
BY TONY WALTER • twalter@greenbaypressgazette.com • February 23, 2009

Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt is asking the City Council to rescind and amend its Feb. 3 decision to rebuild Military Avenue with six roundabouts so alternative proposals can be studied.

Council President Chris Wery and Improvement and Services Committee chairwoman Celestine Jeffreys, both of whom are in favor of the roundabouts, are supporting Schmitt’s request, according to the mayor’s office.

The request will be on the Improvement and Services Committee agenda for its Tuesday meeting and will be acted upon by the full council at its March 3 meeting.
Schmitt said he believes there are suitable alternatives.

Carl Weber, director of public works, is expected to present alternatives at Tuesday’s meeting.

Night Rider

February 23rd, 2009, 11:09 PM

Chicagoenvy

February 24th, 2009, 03:01 AM

Regarding the post about Metro.

It's all already taken place.

The last bus of the night is at 8:45..formerly 9:45.

2 or 3 routes were merged/eliminated.

Adult Bus Passes went from $26/mo to $35/mo.

Service,routes on time and driver attitude is at an all time low.

Today I rang the bell and the driver kept going. I got up and walked towards the door as a hint. The stop sign was clearly lit up and when I rang the bell I heard the 'ding' clear as day.

So,I'm at the door standing right by the driver and she pulls by my stop but keeps going..so I say I need to get off.

She ignores me.

She now changes lanes and waits to turn and I again say I NEED TO GET OFF.

She again ignores me.

Now,she's turning the corner and driving clear opposite direction of my destination and for a 3rd time I tell her I need to get OFF.

She finally pulls over w/o saying one word to me.

And,on top of this she was 20 minutes late getting to the 'metro'.

Regarding rail service. If those quotes are true it is the poster child for everything that is wrong with our society.

NOT EVERYBODY CAN/WANTS TO DRIVE JADIN!!!!!

When my wife and I go to Chicago we take greyhound.

Sure,the bus is cramped and takes 4.5 hours to get there but..

$130 companion fare round trip vs:

-$35 a night to park at a hotel (once there the car would sit all weekend)
-$100+ for gas round trip depending on time of year

And a key factor...my wife is the driver. It's stressful driving into DT Chicago if it's not something you do often. She likes to be able to sit back and let somebody else deal with it and it's nice for her to be able to take in the sights as we enter the city. You can't really enjoy it when you are driving.

How many people don't own a car by choice but would love to take a train into Milwaukee for a day?

GB is a mess because our 'leaders' just do NOT get IT.

I've been listening to the Kunstlercasts that somebody here (forgive me for forgetting who) suggested and that dude gets it. Check out his podcasts...even though he's not talking about GB you'll find yourself nodding your head with what says. http://kunstlercast.com/ because GB is not lone in it's retardation.

This whole car-snobbery that people like Jadin have is killing our cities and society.

A guy like Jadin would never lower himself to ride a train so he figures none of us would either.

These snobs get their new SUV every 3 years and don't care what gas costs and they live out in their burbs and drive everywhere and they just don't see the damage this mentality does.

Nativist

February 24th, 2009, 03:16 AM

I can't believe the president of the local chamber of commerce spoke out in opposition to passenger rail in Green Bay. Is that what chambers of commerce do?

Most people think that the Chamber is some kind of public institution, but it's really an ideologically conservative group. Paul sits at the center of it and runs it as he sees fit, pursuing personal and political vendettas to his heart's content. It's pretty gross.

Puant

February 24th, 2009, 03:38 AM

That TV footage you saw may have been Lombardi coming from the filming or taping of his weekly half-hour “The Vince Lombardi Show” at the WBAY studios with local sportscaster Al Sampson. There are tapes of that show in existence. Great stuff.
.

I think that is what it was. I'm a bit too young but I know I saw the video footage (perhaps reruns or something?). Anyway it was the only one where the context, the city surrounding Vince, really sticks out in my mind. I didn't grow up here in Green Bay and I have very few clues or images in my mind about the city, particularly the downtown. The first time I may have ever stepped foot in downtown Green Bay was in 2000. It was a weird experience, I remember thinking I should have wrote down my initial reactions of the place at that time...for some reason....Amongst the crap, I saw hope. And I still do. Great potential. The city is the oldest in the state, it was settled here (at the Downtown initially) by many Native Americans and by Europeans as early as the 1600s for a variety of reasons. These reasons still exist. There is a big reason why the city was started here, and although new technologies like cars have diminished some of it, there is still a lot going for it.

Regarding the post about Metro.

I've been listening to the Kunstlercasts that somebody here (forgive me for forgetting who) suggested and that dude gets it. Check out his podcasts...even though he's not talking about GB you'll find yourself nodding your head with what says. http://kunstlercast.com/ because GB is not lone in it's retardation.

.

That was me. I randomly picked up one of James Howard Kunstler's books some years ago while perusing the Central LIbrary. That book was called, "The Geography of Nowhere". I have to admit that it has shaped my world view, perhaps a bit too much. I have since read one of his other books, "The Long Emergency" which from what I can tell is factually sound and makes a lot of sense, but at the same time can be a major downer so it wore on me a bit..... As for the KunstlerCasts, at least some of them have humor in them (the motto is "tragic comedy"). But it too can be perhaps too negative....yet, perhaps true....

Speaking of Negative Nellies---
I see GBM Phillips has recently graced us with his presence. When city development falters or this thread slows down, we can always count on GBM to stir the pot!!
Although I think Kunstler has a lot more basis behind his negativity....

GBSurveyor

February 24th, 2009, 04:25 AM

I saw the metro fare increases- Last summer I bought a monthly pass, as a test on it usefulness with my traditional stops, $26 was like half a tank of gas, and I recall all the same things that you mention envy. The drivers were extremely crabby, the bus was either really late or early and on the hourly schedule that can really mess up your day, the whole test didn't work out for me. I really wonder how it is going to be funded when our federal $ get decreased, and with Jadin blabbing against alteratives transportation how in the hell are we going to get an RTA together in NE wisconsin?

As far as the KunstlerCasts go, man I can only take a few of his rants, I think we all know the problems, but how do we move to fix all these problems that the auto created, virtually all our local leaders are useless, I have this feeling that most of them just don't get it, we are headed down a scary path.

Oh yeh envy- next time you do chicago, catch the metra in kenosha, or I think that zion has more frequent schedule, a weekend pass is $5. I would have to guess that those stops although frequent are never more then a minute or 2 and it doesn't really seem all that long.

VanderBeast that is awesome.

sr22ger

February 24th, 2009, 04:32 AM

Most people think that the Chamber is some kind of public institution, but it's really an ideologically conservative group. Paul sits at the center of it and runs it as he sees fit, pursuing personal and political vendettas to his heart's content. It's pretty gross.

Most people don't realize is that Schmitt is a republican as well. I'm not a huge Schmitt fan either, but at least the guy has a vision, albeit a distorted vision. :ohno:

In Todays PG Paul Jadin explains very clearly why rail service in Green Bay Is never going to work even though the current dimwit in office believes it is a great idea...

You can't honestly tell me that you didn't think right away that something was wrong with those numbers? What, are they stopping for 45 minutes at all four stops?

Green Bay Sponge

February 24th, 2009, 04:33 AM

Maybe this is old news and I'm not up to date. Heard on local television last week (WLUK?) that Green Bay Metro may be ending weekday service an hour earlier at night, at least on some routes, and may be eliminating/consolidating some routes because of a budget shortfall. The report was short on details and focused on a waitress who could not take the bus home from work at night any more because of the cutback in hours.
This is unfair to us Green Bay citizens. I'm getting sick of all these budget cuts. If this is how their going to treat us, the passengers, we might as well start a picket line. The transit system is suffering. This will probably change peoples' opinions on Green Bay. Why can't they just fork over a little bit of stimulus money to fix the problem, instead of making these cuts. The city council made a lot of mistakes over the years, but this just so happens to be the worst mistake they have made.
:wtf::soapbox:

Better by the Bay my butt...:bash:

Jschmuck

February 24th, 2009, 04:49 AM

Dont forget, metropolitan areas across the whole country raised transit fares...Also, bus systems everywhere experience fluctuations in schedules (bus arriving early or late). I frequent the Star Tribune of Minneapolis/St.Paul which has transportation blog that readers can leave comments without signing up, one story was about buses arriving basically whenever they wanted.

For those that travel to Chicago periodically; whenever i go to chicago, i drive to Kenosha to pick up the Metra, it does have roughly 20 stops between kenosha and DT chicago but they are extremely quick stops, and looking at the scenery is neat as well. just like gbsurveyor said, a weekend pass is extremely cheap and is unlimited use for the weekend for buses and trains.

Bartles53

February 24th, 2009, 04:57 AM

If I may add my $.02...

I thought Jadin's quote was enlightening. It shouldn't hurt to hear all sides of an argument. And I highly doubt that he blatantly lied about how long it would take for a train to get from GRB to MKE. Personally I'd love to see a train route between Green Bay and Milwaukee/Chicago/Madison. But just because I think it's cool doesn't mean it's a smart plan. And if it does indeed take 4 1/2 hours just to get to Milwaukee, I think I'd probably ride it more as a novelty than on every planned trip.

And not to pick on ChicagoEnvy but it seems to me that you showed that there is already an alternative in place to get down to Milwaukee on the cheap without driving. Again, riding a train has much more panache than riding a bus but if the means and infrastructure already exist to get the masses from A to B at low cost, does it really make sense to drop tens of millions of dollars on an alternative that will actually increase transit time?

Again, it's just my lowly opinion. But I really think it's foolish to castigate a public official who has studied the issue just because the homework he has done has made him come to a different conclusion.

As a side note, it's great to see all of the regular posting on this board. Years ago it seemed like there was a pattern where a handful of posts would be added to the board over a couple days and then it would go dark for a few weeks (or at least what seemed like a few weeks). It's nice that this board is updated almost daily. If only the downtown redevelopment kept the same pace...

gbmphillips

February 24th, 2009, 06:11 AM

This whole car-snobbery that people like Jadin have is killing our cities and society.

A guy like Jadin would never lower himself to ride a train so he figures none of us would either.

These snobs get their new SUV every 3 years and don't care what gas costs and they live out in their burbs and drive everywhere and they just don't see the damage this mentality does.
Why is it that people can not have a choice with out the childish name calling. I don't see myself as a snob, I see myself as a person who likes to drive and enjoys driving, what is wrong with that? If you want to ride a train fine ride it, but get off your GD high horse. Personally if the trains came to Green Bay I would ride it once or twice just for the kicks but then I would hate the inconvenience that comes with them and just go back to the driving.

BTW you are correct I don't care how high gas cost I will always use my car, the train would just be a novelty for the majority of people and SNOBS! :lol:

gbmphillips

February 24th, 2009, 06:15 AM

Speaking of Negative Nellies---
I see GBM Phillips has recently graced us with his presence. When city development falters or this thread slows down, we can always count on GBM to stir the pot!!
Although I think Kunstler has a lot more basis behind his negativity....

You are welcome...but actually I usually read the forum daily, I just don't always want to get involved with yuppie love. :lol: I'm kidding .....

signed
Car SNOB!

Kramerica

February 24th, 2009, 06:23 AM

Good post, I'm just adding in some commentary and more exact numbers.

I read this article this morning also, & it sounds fishy. 4.5 hours to get to MKE? There is just no way. I routinely take the amtrack from MKE to Chicago. That's about a 1 1/2 hour drive without traffic (which basically never happens). The train makes probably about 4 stops, stopping for maybe 5 minutes at each one. The trip takes 1 hour 50 minutes.

The train from MKE to CHI is 1 hour 29 minutes and is one of the most on-time trains in the entire Amtrak system. The cost is $22 one way per person. The train makes three intermediate stops: Mitchell Airport, Sturtevant, and Glenview. As far as I know, the train travels at 79 mph for most of the route, except for the core of MKE and CHI. When the route is upgraded to 110 mph, it will shave about 23 minutes off the route.

How can these stops make the trip take about 20 minutes longer, but from GB to MKE the stops make it take 2 HOURS longer? Ain't no way...

I don't recall the proposed stops, but I would guess something like Depere, Appleton, Oshkosh, Fondulac, west side of MKE/Menominee Falls area, & then downtown. Even if each stop adds 10 minutes to the trip (5 minutes stopped, a few minutes getting back up to speed, that's 50 minuites added to the trip. At 79 mph, the trip should take 1 hour 31 minutes (thank you Excel..) Add in the 50 minutes for stops & you're at 2 hours 21 minutes.

According the MWRRI (http://www.dot.state.wi.us/projects/state/docs/mwrri-wi-brochure.pdf), travel time from GB to CHI would be 2 hr 58 minutes with 110 mph track. Subtract out the 1 hr 6 minutes for that plan's MKE to CHI train, and that leaves 1 hr 52 minutes for an express train between MKE and GB. Even adding the 6 stops planned (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/state/docs/railmidwest.pdf), (Appleton, Neenah, Oshkosh, Fond du Lac, West Bend, Granville) that can't be more than three hours. So I'm not sure where Jadin's 110 mph number came from.

As for the 79 mph number of 4.5 hours, I'm guessing that was for extreme minimal work on the tracks and would leave long in-town stretches at half (or less!) of the 79 mph nominal speed. So I can see how that could add up to 4.5 hours if we went the extreme cheap-o route. I think MGK could shed some more light on the speed restrictions currently in place on that route through the urban areas.

Here's another factor to consider. About once a week I drive from GB to MKE for work. I rent a car. Car rental, after all the taxes, unnecessary fees, etc., is about $90. Gas for the round trip is usually around $25 (at today's prices). Parking at the airport is $6/day. So that gives a grand total of about $120/trip. Last time I took the train from MKE to Chicago, it was about $50 round trip.

According to the chart on page 9 (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/state/docs/railmidwest.pdf), the estimated fare for GB to MKE would be about ($57-$18), or $39 each way. So that's about $80 for a round trip. And no worries about parking.

Jschmuck

February 24th, 2009, 06:57 AM

gbmphillips - The problem is people think, and you are kind of insinuating that rail transit is a luxury rather than an alternative. Rail transit should receive all of the opportunities as highways do to come to fruition.

As far as inconvenience, driving isn't an inconvenience? accidents, slowdowns, roadrage, drunkdriving, WEATHER(cant emphasize enough), multitasking, overall congestion, and now not to mention the health effects from driving, overweight/obesity, stress, and finally COST; cost of vehicle, insurance, taxes, fuel, maintenance, excessories.

And for inconvenience with rail; time, maybe congestion.

If you like to drive, fine with me...I actually love to drive as well, im a roadgeek, thats why i drive an 18-wheeler, but what im trying to say is rail transit should get equal rights as roads/highways, its an alternative/option, not a luxury

Nativist

February 24th, 2009, 09:02 AM

Er... I wasn't aware that I had the option to take a train to Milwaukee, GBMphillips. That's the problem under discussion. Trains are, by design, enormously more efficient than cars or buses. Efficiency is going to be really key when we have to adapt to a future where energy costs a great deal more than it does today. Every year we wait, it's going to get more difficult and more expensive to implement rail transit. Anyone who has lived in (or been to) Europe has seen what it's like to live in a place where energy costs twice as much: fewer people own cars, old ladies in fur coats ride mopeds, the buses are crammed, and trains are perhaps the most common form of inter-city transit. If that transportation infrastructure didn't exist, they would be screwed.

At $4 a gallon, I was beginning to see changes in behavior. What will happen at $8? How much does gas have to cost, gbmphillips, before you wish there were some other alternatives? Are you willing to pay $12 a gallon? Maybe you're a man of means, but the fact is that your lifestyle is dependent upon everyone having access to cheap energy.

Pointing this stuff out is not being on a "GD high horse," it's being realistic. There are many problems with cars; obviously we'll always need some cars around. But we will need to get to a point where they are not the sole way that most people get around & the sooner the better.

Green Bay 4 Life

February 24th, 2009, 04:21 PM

:2cents:My two cents…

Green Bay is like that old ex-girlfriend. You still like her a lot and wish her well, but you can’t live with her because she annoys the ever living **** out of you by all the stupid things she does. (that can be taken either way, depending on what gender you are).:bash:

It is funny how many opponents of major projects are very vocal on price tags, the thinking that no one will utilize it, fear, old way of thinking, etc. But they rarely if ever are spearheading other ways to make Green Bay a better place. Yes, Alderman represent specific districts, but they also represent the City of Green Bay as a whole. Most will say downtown is dead. Why are we spending money there? So what, you want to let the largest employment center in the region just die? I really don’t get it. I understand that a number of major cities have idiots on Council, but for some reason Green Bay takes the cake. I look at other communities that have very well educated, civil, big-picture thinking, etc. individuals that are proactive and in turn are in proactive communities. Here we just seem to spin our wheels in the snow over and over and over and over again. It feels that some members on Council want projects to fail so they can get reelected by saying, “I didn’t vote for that”. Why make Green bay a destination? We have the Packers. Well what about the people that live here. I want my City to be a destination. I made the choice to live here (and actually move back here). I made an investment in this community by buying a home, maintaining it, making it more valuable, paying my taxes. What have they done to make me want to stay? What have they done to try and attract young professionals or keep the ones we have? The lure of bug city living and the amenities it has, steal away our talent all the time. We do have a tool that many other cities our size don’t have and yes that is the Packers. We have a Big Time attraction and a branding across the country, but it isn’t utilized. We are just stuck in a rut that has lasted since the Day the Music Died (ala the mall being built downtown). :ohno:

I agree downtown has made strides and changes over the decades, but we are not talking about an area that is overly large. One or two projects a decade make a difference, but there is so much more potential out there, but the stigma lives with this City because of the constant bickering and lack of solid attitude towards development. There seem to be a lot of open minded people on this thread. Why aren’t any of us running for these positions? Why aren’t all of us showing up at meetings to support things on a regular basis? Sure we are interested and hopeful, but opposition always reigns supreme at meetings and thus things fail or get pulled. Apathy leads the way and it isn’t exclusive to Green Bay.:hammer:

I love this City, but if we weren’t in a down economy or housing slump – I would seriously consider putting my house on the market and looking for a job in a more progressive area. I am only young once, and I am not going to waste it waiting for empty promises to be fulfilled as they have been time and time again.

The last straw has been this Military Avenue and “Vander LEAST of all members that put Green Bay first” grandstanding.

It would take a radical movement on Council, such as eliminating Zima (The hip thing for a while, but now the drink just sucks), Nicholson, Wery, Deneys, De Wane, and Vander Tool and yes, even getting a new and progressive Mayor (He says the same thing every year). I bet at this year’s state of the City we’ll here (Astor Place, the Water Mark, and Children’s Museum will break ground this year)… All he needs to do is a play a tape. I was a Schmitt backer for a while, but I am starting to wane…:fiddle:

Probability of above happening. About 0%.

With that, I will come back for Packer games but that is about it.

Like the EAS Commercials… Now I’m Done.:wave:

I need a drink. :drunk:

ifyoubuildit

February 24th, 2009, 05:38 PM

There is nothing downtown that makes families want to go there, and families are the bread and butter of a community, they will make or break it. But the people pushing for downtown revitalization are clueless to that and think that a couple of condos, a tall building and a deck where you can enjoy the site of dead carp floating by is all it takes to make downtown grow and succeed.

Then you should do everything you can to help build overwhelming support to get a new downtown baseball stadium built ASAP. It's the shot in the arm that the downtown needs..!! "If you build it, they will come" Who's "they" you ask...the bread and butter of this community (see above)..!!

hckystr42

February 24th, 2009, 05:53 PM

Green Bay 4 Life- Excellent analogy with the ex girlfriend. I completely agree with you on your rant. As a college senior I am contemplating were I want to live and work. Since I have lived in Green Bay a majority of my life I would like to return there. However due to lack of jobs right now I am unable to do so. As I have been looking at larger cities (Madison, Milwaukee) I cant help but wonder why these cities are actually able to propose an idea, build it and move on to the next one when in Green Bay we can't even get past proposing an idea because so many people are against any sort of progress.

It really is getting rediculous how the council is running this city right into the ground and how everyone around the state thinks that the city of Green Bay is an absolute joke. Last week in my senior design class we were discussing dealing with the public and different city officials in order to get projects under way. My professor brought up the Military Ave fiasco and made a few jokes about it to get everyone laughing at the situation. If I wasn't from Green Bay I would have probably thought it funny too, but being from Green Bay I can only find the whole thing sickening.

I guess for now I'll find work elsewhere and maybe in a few years when the job market improves I'll look at how the city is doing and contemplate returning then. Until then though, consider me another young professional lost.

jerkylips999

February 24th, 2009, 07:19 PM

Then you should do everything you can to help build overwhelming support to get a new downtown baseball stadium built ASAP. It's the shot in the arm that the downtown needs..!! "If you build it, they will come" Who's "they" you ask...the bread and butter of this community (see above)..!!

it could be a piece of the puzzle but it's not a cure-all. People aren't going to move downtown to be closer to a baseball stadium for the 20 games a year that it's used. You're pushing so hard for this stadium, I think many (myself included) are starting to wonder who you really are & what is your motivation? It's like a stealth commercial or something..

Tower Park

February 24th, 2009, 07:29 PM

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/zima.jpg

A short time back I pontificated that downtown Green Bay is hurt by the lack of major retail and the fact development projects can take years and years to happen. Another factor worth mentioning is Ald. and Sup. Guy Zima. Over the decades, I think Mr. Zima has had an absolutely devastating impact on local politics — development and otherwise — city and county. He’s mean and ugly, hateful, sexist, racist, homophobic, spreads rumors and is unapologetically insulting to city and county staff, fellow council and board members, mayors, county executives, developers, consultants and the general public he disagrees with. He filibusters meetings and can tie up projects and decision-making forever. He loves publicity. I’m sure the word has gotten out around the state, and perhaps that has given some potential developers pause about entering this market. Worst of all, Mr. Zima recruits like-minded people to the City Council and County Board. So you have Zima-like Chad Fradette’s and John Vander Leest’s and many others running around.

Mr. Zima has tried to run for higher public office but has no majority appeal outside his own district, where he’s very popular — because, to his credit, he makes sure every constituent complaint gets acted on, every pothole is repaired and all the leaves get picked up. He likes to chat with people. He’s energetic. He shuttles older and disabled voters to the polls. He’s great on yard signs during elections. And he never goes away, surviving scandals (stealing from a supermarket, spitting on a county executive), censures and political opponents in his district who think really this time they’re going to defeat him at the polls — but they don’t. Mr. Zima is in his fifties and conceivably could be on the City Council and County Board for another twenty years. From time to time, there’s fresh blood and some fresh thinkers on the council and board — and maybe these people will or are prevailing as Green Bay and Brown County move forward— but they can get battered in the process and need resilience, determination and a very thick skin.

Years ago I worked with Mr. Zima on a major downtown Green Bay project. If you approach him in the spirit of wanting to work with him and not dismissing him (he has an enormous inferiority and me-against-the-world complex) — and if you’re willing to tolerate and work beyond his brutal temper tantrums and hate speech — sometimes good things can get done. At one point on our project, in a hallway in City Hall outside a meeting, Mr. Zima exploded and yelled and stabbed his finger in my chest, telling me what a jerk I was and that what I was doing was politically motivated (wrong). I wanted to respond in-kind, but for the sake of the project I let it pass and things turned out successfully. Once he leaves office, whenever that is, then all the people who have ever had to work with him can tell him what an ******* and a ***** he was and remind him of all the damage he did to the city and county and local government.

Apologies for the length. I’ll try to restrain myself. Above photo by City of Green Bay.

Night Rider

February 24th, 2009, 08:06 PM

This is about the time when "Ifyoubuildit" responds saying....If we all just put a stadium downtown...politicians like Zima will go away. VanderBeast will be silenced & Squiggy will fill in the big crater downtown. All if we "Build it". Ifyoubuildit, you might establish a little more credibility if you partake it discussions that don't just involve around you getting your new stadium.

Nativist

February 24th, 2009, 08:08 PM

Most people don't realize is that Schmitt is a republican as well. I'm not a huge Schmitt fan either, but at least the guy has a vision, albeit a distorted vision.

Schmitt's an interesting guy. He's a republican, but he's able to put pragmatism ahead of ideology. He's also quite open to hearing other viewpoints, and we've all seen him change his mind from time to time, I think that's a positive sign of growth. He's not my dream mayor by a long shot, but I do think he's far better than Paul Jadin, and I'm not aware of a stronger candidate at the moment.

And, as long as we're keeping score, Guy Zima's a democrat. These party distinctions start falling apart at the city level.

gbmphillips

February 24th, 2009, 08:25 PM

There is nothing that is going to change that in this country the major means of transportation is a private vehicle, car, jeep, suv moped whatever. I have no problem and would love to see the development of rail service, I would use it a few times but it would.
never replace my car and for majority of the people it never will.

When I talk inconvenience sure it took me 3 hours to drive to Waukesha on Saturday, but if I took a train from the Green Bay terminal to Milwaukee then I would have to find a taxi or some other means to get to where I wanted to go. To me that is a huge inconvenience, more costly and just a general pain in the XXX. Again I am not against rail for those who need or want it, I actually hope it comes through, but t is obvious Green Bay is a long way away from ever getting it.

Signed
Car Snob

Tower Park

February 24th, 2009, 08:33 PM

And, as long as we're keeping score, Guy Zima's a democrat. These party distinctions start falling apart at the city level.

For the record and FYI, Mr. Zima's a Republican. He originally may have been a Democrat many years ago before switching parties.

Green Bay 4 Life

February 24th, 2009, 08:48 PM

It's also my understanding that last night, Zima told a packed crowd that he would be exploring having the Mayor and all on Council who voted for roundabouts recalled. Wow, you don't agree with me, I'll replace you with people who will. Working with and understanding that this is a representative government rather than a "true" democracy is totally lost nowadays...

Just produce evidence already that refutes everything the consultants said. Hard evidence. That's all. Apparently it is all over the place, especially when you Google "Why roundabouts are bad" and the pages are created by 4th grade educated people from Green Bay.

honest86

February 24th, 2009, 09:51 PM

gbmphillips

February 24th, 2009, 10:30 PM

gbmphillips -
When you get off the proposed train in Milwaukee, if you were smart you will have your laptop or Iphone, or whatever you use for the internet, and you can google where you are and your destination, as well as the time you want to arrive, and google can tell you which buses you need to ride at what times, and the walking distances. If you are planning ahead you can even print off everything you need to know. Google's version of mapquest is very nicely integrated with MCTS and will make navigating the city very easy without the need to deal with parking, or driving. It will even provide you with several alternatives. The same thing is true for Chicago also I believe.Or I could plan before I leave where parking is located near the places I need to go, and then arrive on my schedule on my time and if I get delayed or want to leave early I again can do so on my schedule at my time and not dependent on a public transit schedule. Like I said trains and buses are ok for some people but for the majority of the public having control over their schedule is much more important. You make driving sound like its a lot of work, to me the hassle of dealing with where you need to go and do after you leave the train sounds like a lot bigger pain in tha arse.

Someone earlier pointed out that trains are very popular in Europe, which is great for them, but we are not Europe(Thank God), and it is highly unlikely they will ever be embraced here as there. (again, Thank God)

Signed
Car Snob

Night Rider

February 24th, 2009, 11:08 PM

For the record and FYI, Mr. Zima's a Republican. He originally may have been a Democrat many years ago before switching parties.

That explains everything! He's been a closet republican. Now Nativist & others can sleep better. You can blame it on conservatives & republicans. It's all their fault downtown Green Bay is what it is. Heck, if democrats were in control, there would be a trolley system, mass transit from da UP (Upper Penn) to Chicago, No SUV's (they're evil), bike paths on hwy 41, huge buildings downtown & roundabouts everywhere.

jerkylips999

February 24th, 2009, 11:19 PM

Or I could plan before I leave where parking is located near the places I need to go, and then arrive on my schedule on my time and if I get delayed or want to leave early I again can do so on my schedule at my time and not dependent on a public transit schedule. Like I said trains and buses are ok for some people but for the majority of the public having control over their schedule is much more important. You make driving sound like its a lot of work, to me the hassle of dealing with where you need to go and do after you leave the train sounds like a lot bigger pain in tha arse.

Someone earlier pointed out that trains are very popular in Europe, which is great for them, but we are not Europe(Thank God), and it is highly unlikely they will ever be embraced here as there. (again, Thank God)

Signed
Car Snob

I understand the points you're making, but I think it's somewhat misguided. Yes, trains are popular in Europe (I made that comment, btw). But look at cities like NYC, Boston, & Chicago (to a lesser extent). Can you imagine living in Manhattan & owning a car? The difference between those cities & most others in this country is the scope of the public transportation systems. This is the biggest problem, in my eyes. It takes a leap of faith to say that it may not be perfect now, but in time it will improve. We may need to deal with slightly longer travel times, adjusting our schedules, etc., now, but if enough people do it & the demand is there, we'll get more frequent trains, buses, etc. We'll get transportation systems that reach farther into the suburbs. We'll get trains to Milwaukee.

The subways of NYC took 100 years to get to where they are now. We're not going to get a perfect public transportation system overnight. If people refuse to use our current imperfect system now, though, we may never get it.

Tower Park

February 25th, 2009, 12:05 AM

That explains everything! He's been a closet republican. Now Nativist & others can sleep better. You can blame it on conservatives & republicans. It's all their fault downtown Green Bay is what it is.

I just corrected a false statement. My original post about Mr. Zima made no mention of party affiliation.

Nativist

February 25th, 2009, 12:12 AM

That explains everything! He's been a closet republican. Now Nativist & others can sleep better.

Well, sure, the world is right side up again. I'd been told that he was a democrat, but I'm perfectly happy to disown him. http://www.skyscrapercity.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Someone earlier pointed out that trains are very popular in Europe, which is great for them, but we are not Europe(Thank God), and it is highly unlikely they will ever be embraced here as there. (again, Thank God)

I also feel alluded to in this comment because I mentioned trains in Europe on the last page. The point that I was making was that energy costs in Europe are 2x to 3x as high, and therefore public transit is a much greater part of the mix. We have already seen our gas prices double this past Summer, and it was clear to me that was beginning to have an impact on people's decision making. If you look at the energy situation realistically, it's clear that the age of cheap energy is waning. If we don't begin doing something, creating viable alternatives to cars, we are going to be caught with our pants down.

I'm still curious to know if gbmphillips would make the same choices if gas were $6 a gallon, or $12 a gallon. Because if that were the case, I know that I would be bicycling a hell of a lot more; and I bet we'd see people begin to embrace public transit right here in the midwest. I didn't own a car between 1993 and 2003, I lived in Blooomington, Indiana; Baltimore; Bologna, Italy; Boston, Brooklyn, and Chicago. All of them had decent public transit and were very walkable. I never had any trouble getting anywhere on time, actually had time to read while in transit, and was generally happier about going from a to b. It's not inconvenient, and with a workable system, there's a lot of flexibility about schedule.

And Night Rider, I think you're pretty spot on. Who to blame but the people in power, who have mostly been Republicans? Furthermore, cities that have trolleys, roundabouts, and lots of bike paths seem to mostly be controlled by Democrats.

Night Rider

February 25th, 2009, 12:17 AM

I just corrected a false statement. My original post about Mr. Zima made no mention of party affiliation.

I didn't mean to come down on you, I appreciate you correcting the record. It's others who keep putting comments about how conservatives or republicans are to blame for whatever problem they have. I could write a huge list of problems that are directly attributed to democrat policies. That is unnecessary however. It's not what this sounding board is about. I let some of the comments slide by, but every once & a while I call people out.

gbmphillips

February 25th, 2009, 01:36 AM

If gas was $6 I would make adjustments, if it was $8 a gal I would make adjustments, if it was $12 a gal I would make adjustments, would you I use public transportaion, very very unlikely.

Bartles53

February 25th, 2009, 03:15 AM

I want to take issue with "throw the bums out" posts that put the blame for the lack of development downtown on the city council and mayor. Personally I think the criticism is misguided. The entire downtown (riverfront, mall area, parking structure retail, Grand Union corner) is ready and waiting to be revamped. I'm not sure what more the city government can to to create demand. In hindsight the only fair criticism we can place on the city was relying on one developer to solve all of our problems. But I was smitten with the Astor Place building when the renders first were made public (still am) and I thought Vetter had an interesting plan for the Younkers building. But Astor Place condos were on sale for what, 2 years? And there just wasn't enough interest in the Green Bay area to make it worth the risk to start construction. And this was when the economy was roaring. The posters on this board are more gung ho about downtown development than most in the city and as far as I know only one of us (Fillmore, if I remember correctly) ever put a deposit on a unit. And as far as I know only one of us has put a deposit on a Watermark unit (Hermosa).

I'm not sure how a city can force retailers to open up shop in an area they don't want to be in or convince residents to move to a condo that they don't think is a good value. I think the city leaders have done their job to encourage redevelopment but, unless I'm missing an easy fix, I don't see what more they can do to stoke the fire. Any thoughts?

mgk920

February 25th, 2009, 05:26 AM

Good post, I'm just adding in some commentary and more exact numbers.

The train from MKE to CHI is 1 hour 29 minutes and is one of the most on-time trains in the entire Amtrak system. The cost is $22 one way per person. The train makes three intermediate stops: Mitchell Airport, Sturtevant, and Glenview. As far as I know, the train travels at 79 mph for most of the route, except for the core of MKE and CHI. When the route is upgraded to 110 mph, it will shave about 23 minutes off the route.

According the MWRRI (http://www.dot.state.wi.us/projects/state/docs/mwrri-wi-brochure.pdf), travel time from GB to CHI would be 2 hr 58 minutes with 110 mph track. Subtract out the 1 hr 6 minutes for that plan's MKE to CHI train, and that leaves 1 hr 52 minutes for an express train between MKE and GB. Even adding the 6 stops planned (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/state/docs/railmidwest.pdf), (Appleton, Neenah, Oshkosh, Fond du Lac, West Bend, Granville) that can't be more than three hours. So I'm not sure where Jadin's 110 mph number came from.

As for the 79 mph number of 4.5 hours, I'm guessing that was for extreme minimal work on the tracks and would leave long in-town stretches at half (or less!) of the 79 mph nominal speed. So I can see how that could add up to 4.5 hours if we went the extreme cheap-o route. I think MGK could shed some more light on the speed restrictions currently in place on that route through the urban areas.

According to the chart on page 9 (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/state/docs/railmidwest.pdf), the estimated fare for GB to MKE would be about ($57-$18), or $39 each way. So that's about $80 for a round trip. And no worries about parking.
Currently, from what I am aware of, CN's mainline and Green Bay lines are at 59 mph. Any faster would require major and expensive signal rejiggering on their part. They go slower in central Appleton (30 mph) due to numerous crossings in a congested urban area - BUT that would not be a major problem in that there would be a station stop there. They also have a 30 mph reverse curve by Main St (where another station could potentially go), along with some other speed restricting curves by Winchester Rd and US 10 in Neenah. I also STR that they only go 30 mph through central Oshkosh, again due to numerous crossings in a congested urban area, but that area would include a station stop, too.

It should not be physically difficult to get the speed up between the station areas - it just matters how much money is desired to be spent while doing it.

The biggest hangup with going by way of West Bend/Milwaukee-Granville (which should be mostly wide open operationally) is that the ROW between West Bend and Eden and some in central Fond du Lac would have to be reclaimed from the trail guys and restored to rail service, along with a crossover acquired and built immediately north of the former CNW station in central Fond du Lac.

-----------------

Anyways, some advantages of going by train are that the terminals are in the respective cities' downtown areas and one can get there while getting other stuff done - CNW's own Chicago/Milwaukee/Green Bay (via Appleton/Oshkosh/Fond du Lac/West Bend) service was very popular with the business crowd right up to Amtrak day in 1971, running several round trips every day. Amtrak turned it down at their startup due to the bad condition of CNW's track, something that is no longer an issue.

For me, going to downtown Chicago is a bit of a hassle - whenever I go there, I drive from Appleton to the Cumberland Ave park-and-ride garage on the Kennedy Expressway (I-90) near ORD and take the CTA Blue Line from there to downtown. You have fuel cost, tolls, driving time (some peoples' time can be worth THOUSANDS of dollars per hour, but mine is a little bit less) when nothing else can get done, parking (the CTA charges $2 for up to 12 hours there, but downtown parking can be upwards of $40 for a day, depending on location) and CTA fare (the last time I was there it was $5 for the R/T).

Looking at that, train service can be very attractive and I have little wonder why Amtrak is seeing such strong ridership gains with their Hiawathas. And yes, the Hiawathas consistently lead all of Amtrak in 'on time' performance.

Mike

araman0

February 25th, 2009, 06:51 AM

I'm not sure if any of you have noticed this before, but Google Maps (http://www.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Hazelwood+Ln&daddr=Cherry+St&hl=en&geocode=FewopwIdYra_-g%3BFZg7pwIdtAjB-g&mra=ls&dirflg=r&date=02%2F24%2F09&time=10:45pm&ttype=dep&noexp=0&noal=0&sort=&tline=&sll=44.524783,-88.069153&sspn=0.044977,0.076904&ie=UTF8&start=0&z=13)now offers transit scheduling and mapping for Green Bay and Appleton. It is incredibly flexible, and even gives you the cost of bus fare compared to driving. Just imagine; if this is added to Google's mobile device maps application, nobody would have an excuse for not knowing bus to take. They could easily plan their trips on the fly using their cell phones.

(Since I do not have all my addresses memorized, I map out a route via the "car" option so I can drag/drop my source and destination points. After I've mapped it out via "Car", I switch to "Public Transit".)

Surprisingly, Madison seems to be behind the curve on this one.

Tower Park

February 25th, 2009, 11:27 PM

Took a stroll on Broadway. Window signs and a building permit are up at the former JB’s Escape restaurant and lounge (known before that as the Copper Top) at 307 N. Broadway across from the new Shopko Express building. The signs say Chefusion “eclectic cuisine and lounge” will open in May.

Also, four large window openings have been carved into the new upcoming combined Kavarna & Parisi’s location on N. Broadway. . . . The House of Homebrew at 415 Dousman St. says it’s moving across the street to what appears to be a larger building at 410 Dousman St. . . . Colourbox Body Piercing is moving in March from 418 Dousman St. to 235 N. Broadway in the Advanced Aquarium building. It'll be next to the new Broadway Flower Market in the same building.

Night Rider

February 26th, 2009, 12:15 AM

“eclectic cuisine"

My wife's cooking can be described as "eclectic", I hope for the sake of the survival of the restaurant it's a entire different angle of "eclectic". ;)

hckystr42

February 26th, 2009, 12:22 AM

Tower Park

February 26th, 2009, 01:02 AM

FYI. Madison Metro increases cash fare from $1.50 to $2.00. Sounds like it was something like a Green Bay City Council meeting.
www.madison.com/wsj/home/local/440427

Navarino Rezdnt

February 27th, 2009, 03:55 AM

Took a stroll on Broadway...Also, four large window openings have been carved into the new upcoming combined Kavarna & Parisi’s location on N. Broadway. . . .

It's funny you bring that up, 2 weeks ago I was driving down Broadway and had seen the work crew there and a few days later I went back and took this snapshot. After the glass is in and there's some awnings up the building should look pretty sweet. I took the photo on a Sunday afternoon, so there wasn't anyone around Let's hope that changes as more businesses open up on Broadway.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/35796634@N07/3313059636/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/35796634@N07/3313059636/

Navarino Rezdnt

February 27th, 2009, 06:12 PM

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww359/GB-Pix/NewKavarna.jpg

jerkylips999

February 27th, 2009, 07:25 PM

had an interesting discussion with the wife last night. She doesn't like roundabouts. Finally last night I said, "what SPECIFICALLY don't you like about them?" She said that, in theory, they're fine, but her biggest problem is that people drive through them like a-holes...not yielding when going through, going through too fast, etc.

It got me thinking, how many opinions have been formed because of stuff like this? In reality, it's not a fault of the design, but of enforcement of rules.

If police had more closely monitored these & enforced the rules better, maybe people would have had better experiences & would not be so opposed?

Tower Park

February 27th, 2009, 09:02 PM

The board of directors of the Green Bay Area Chamber of Commerce has voted to support a compromise Military Avenue plan calling for no more than three roundabouts. The Military Avenue Business Association supports a similar compromise plan being advocated by the mayor. The chamber also indicated it opposes any recall of elected officials who have been supporting the roundabouts, as apparently has been advocated by Ald. Guy Zima. Ald. John Vander Leest has been on television saying he will not accept any roundabouts at all.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090227/GPG0101/902270657/1207/GPG01

The Press-Gazette today editorially questions Vander Leest’s recent decision to sue the city for $1 million because of a citation he received a year ago for drunken driving. Vander Leest and others also are threatening to sue the city over the roundabouts issue.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090227/GPG0602/902270646/1269/GPG06

Navarino Rezdnt

February 27th, 2009, 10:53 PM

As for the threat of recall by Zima, recall should be used for issues of misconduct and the like, not for making an opposing decision while doing their job.

The problem with putting in only a few roundabouts is that they work best when there are multiples. Putting a mix of signalized intersections and roundabouts disrupts even traffic flow. When the lights change at the signalized intersection, there is a sudden rush of traffic at the next roundabout and that backs up cross-traffic. IMHO it's either all or none.

The link below is to a Power Point presentation and frames 10 & 11 show how negative public perceptions change to positive ones after roundabouts are installed. Some of these frames were used during the presentation given to the Improvement and Services committee last month, where they voted to recommend a four lane signalized option for Military.

http://www.utahltap.org/files/8%20-%20Bird%20Rock%20PDS%20Roundabouts%20Presentation_Doctor.ppt

Tower Park

February 27th, 2009, 11:33 PM

jerkylips999

February 27th, 2009, 11:43 PM

I hear what you’re saying about mixing roundabouts and traffic signals. Someone else (GBSurveyor?) cautioned against that many pages back. But politically speaking, perhaps — perhaps — that may be the only option. Then again, Vander Leest says no roundabouts at all, and opponents are saying a lawsuit could be forthcoming within a month or two. So who knows? SNAFU.

The problem with this is that if they're not used as intended, they won't work as intended (wow, that was profound, wasn't it? :lol:)

A combo of lights & roundabouts is not going to work as well, & is going to be "evidence" that they don't work. I could see something like that essentially killing roundabout projects in the future.

Bay2Bay

February 28th, 2009, 06:52 PM

"We initially explored the possibility of a train traveling 79 mph, with four stops" between Milwaukee and Green Bay, Jadin said. "It would take 4.5 hours. Who is going to get on a train for 4.5 hours when you can drive it in two?

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090223/GPG0101/902230528/1978

I agree with those that think the 4.5 hour travel time between Milwaukee and Green Bay is with no track improvements.

But consider, even with a longer travel time, a business person doesn't have to concentrate on driving and can be working on his laptop the entire commute, work time lost if having to drive.

Navarino Rezdnt

March 1st, 2009, 11:24 AM

I agree with those that think the 4.5 hour travel time between Milwaukee and Green Bay is with no track improvements.

But consider, even with a longer travel time, a business person doesn't have to concentrate on driving and can be working on his laptop the entire commute, work time lost if having to drive.

It's a matter of reallocation of time resource. A business person with a laptop or blackberry can work and a common person with an iPhone or other hand held device can watch video, surf the web, listen to an audio book or simply relax while looking out the window. It would seem to me to be a lot less stressful than driving.

The hard part for our culture to overcome is the sense of Americana that has become entrenched with the automobile culture. The "freedom of the road" and sense of independence that has arisen from the advent of the auto is a strong cultural force to overcome.

As for rail service to Green Bay, I think it's a great idea. I have a sister that lives out west and my elderly parents no longer travel by plane. They take the Empire Builder out of Milwaukee and for people like them, they would probably be interested in taking the train from Green Bay to Milwaukee to releasse the burden of someone driving them to Milwaukee and then picking them up on the return trip.

Night Rider

March 1st, 2009, 08:33 PM

It's a matter of reallocation of time resource. A business person with a laptop or blackberry can work and a common person with an iPhone or other hand held device can watch video, surf the web, listen to an audio book or simply relax while looking out the window.

A good person business person can do all that while driving. I've seen it. Nothing worse then driving behind someone in the fast lane who is playing on their laptop!

Night Rider

March 1st, 2009, 11:55 PM

According to the paper today, Burger Company is closing & Marias is moving back in there. I never tried the Burger Company, probably should have. If all else fails, we always have Al's Burgers.

Green Bay Sponge

March 2nd, 2009, 01:51 AM

According to the paper today, Burger Company is closing & Marias is moving back in there. I never tried the Burger Company, probably should have. If all else fails, we always have Al's Burgers.

I'm guessing that the building on the east side that they are moving out of might be reverted to nightclub use, or be demolished in favor of a new development.

Navarino Rezdnt

March 2nd, 2009, 07:34 AM

According to the paper today, Burger Company is closing & Marias is moving back in there. I never tried the Burger Company, probably should have. If all else fails, we always have Al's Burgers.

I never tried their burgers either, I assumed that it was some kind "gourmet" burger place. And to somebody that's been eating Al's World Famous hamburgers for over 25 years, it just didn't seem that appealing. Especially since at Al's I like to sit next to the window and watch people walk by. There doesn't seem to be any windows at that location.

sr22ger

March 2nd, 2009, 08:59 AM

According to the paper today, Burger Company is closing & Marias is moving back in there. I never tried the Burger Company, probably should have. If all else fails, we always have Al's Burgers.
The Burger Company was goooood. I was a frequent lunch visitor to the place. It was always busy then, but like the article states, there must not have been enough evening business to stay afloat. I am somewhat excited to have a new Mexican place though.

I never tried their burgers either, I assumed that it was some kind "gourmet" burger place. And to somebody that's been eating Al's World Famous hamburgers for over 25 years, it just didn't seem that appealing. Especially since at Al's I like to sit next to the window and watch people walk by. There doesn't seem to be any windows at that location.
It was less than $10 for a burger, I don't remember the exact prices really. Not really gourmet, just good. And there was windows that you could sit next to that faced Broadway.

Night Rider

March 2nd, 2009, 12:46 PM

Future passenger train line connecting Green Bay to Chicago may be closer to reality than thought
By Paul Srubas • psrubas@greenbaypressgazette.com • March 2, 2009

That's why Frank Ingram of Green Bay is organizing a local push for statewide rail service to include Green Bay.

Ingram, a native of England who lived in the United Kingdom up until 10 years ago, is used to European passenger rail service and believes "the time is now" to resurrect the service in this country.

Ingram is a builder and building renovator by training, but he has spent a lifetime studying transportation and the politics of the issue, starting at age 10 when he helped his father circulate a petition to save off-peak bus service in his rural English hometown.

Passenger rail service is more economical, efficient and environmentally friendly than airline and automobile transportation, Ingram said. "I think we tend to forget how many people are currently disenfranchised for travel, especially the elderly and the young," he said. "There's this illusion that everybody has this wonderful freedom to, say, visit relatives in Indianapolis. It just isn't true."

People who are poor or physically unable to drive have little opportunity for that kind of travel in this country, but it's almost taken for granted in Europe, Ingram said.

Encouraged by talk from President Barack Obama and Gov. Jim Doyle, Ingram sees growing interest in continued cooperative efforts between Wisconsin and Illinois to upgrade rail service between the two major cities of both states and to build a line linking Madison to Milwaukee.

Like Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt, Ingram believes Green Bay needs to be part of those plans so that it becomes included in a passenger rail system. The system is certain to grow in southern Wisconsin, and Green Bay needs to remain economically relevant, Ingram said.

Ingram brushed aside a suggestion that resurrecting passenger rail service was a pipe dream, saying, "You've got to turn the argument around and say it's economically necessary. We have got to be connected to Chicago.

"There will either be a greater Chicago area that includes Milwaukee and Madison or a greater Chicago area that includes Milwaukee, Madison, the Fox Valley and Green Bay. Green Bay has got to be part of a dynamic core of the Midwest."

Passenger rail service fell into decline in the United States not because it wasn't economically feasible but because the federal government forced it into decline, said Ray Ash of Green Bay, an 83-year-old railroad buff who worked most of his life for the Railway Express Agency.

"The government was all gung-ho on building an interstate highway system during the Eisenhower administration," Ash said. "And politicians today would rather fund the airlines."

He believes that sufficient tracks remain in place to re-establish passenger service that would be attractive to many travelers, especially senior citizens who might not want to fly.

But Ingram cautions that resurrecting rail service would not be viable on nostalgic grounds; it must be — and could easily be made to be — a viable and preferable option for business as well as pleasure travelers.

High-speed rail lines in Europe offer wireless Internet connections and other amenities for business travelers, he said. Because Europe has focused on the mode of travel, it has continued to modernize the system, he said.

"A 400-mile journey now typically takes three hours, and you can walk up to the train two minutes before it leaves," he said.

Although the United States has fallen behind Europe in the development of state-of-the-art rail technology, even 50-year-old technology could get the job done, according to Ash, who still has old passenger train timetables.

Train service in the 1950s allowed travelers to get from Green Bay to Milwaukee in a little over 2½ hours and from Green Bay to Chicago in about four hours, Ash said. That's not much slower than the same trip by car, but without the headaches of driving and finding a place to park.

"You can obviously conduct business, and for small families, what parent wouldn't be happy to sit around a table with their kids, rather than driving for four hours with, 'Are we there yet?'" Ingram said.

But the government needs prodding, Ingram said.

Former Wisconsin Gov. Tommy Thompson commissioned a study in the late 1990s that envisioned Green Bay being connected to rail service to Milwaukee by 2007. Subsequent language by the state Department of Transportation has been timid and without vision, Ingram said. The agency is perfectly willing to spend billions on highway upgrades but reluctant to invest in rails, which Ingram believes would be less expensive.

"I don't see any reason basic service couldn't be brought up and running in 18 months, given the will," Ingram said.

Paul Jadin, president of the Green Bay Area Chamber of Commerce, was part of Thompson's so-called Blue Ribbon Task Force on Passenger Rail Service in the late 1990s, when Jadin was Green Bay mayor.

In a recent interview with the Green Bay Press-Gazette, Jadin admitted he didn't remember the exact travel time projected for a train between Green Bay and Milwaukee, but he recalled feeling it wasn't fast enough to be practical.

"If we can get to where there's minimal time delay and there's the ridership to justify it, by all means we'll fight for it," Jadin said. "I need to be shown that this is worth our investment in lobbying for it."

Jadin said he was glad to hear that Ingram was trying to drum up support.

"If they get guys like me fired up, and I can get my board fired up, and we can get legislators fired up, well, it could be Frank is starting something important," Jadin said.

jerkylips999

March 2nd, 2009, 04:56 PM

According to the paper today, Burger Company is closing & Marias is moving back in there. I never tried the Burger Company, probably should have. If all else fails, we always have Al's Burgers.

The Burger Co. was good. I was only there a couple times, for lunch, but the food was excellent each time.

The news about Maria's is interesting. I've been going to Maria's for many years & love the place. I noticed that it never seemed very busy at the current location. I hope it picks back up for them.

I do remember them saying when they moved that parking was kind of an issue on Broadway--that people said they were getting parking tickets while they were eating. I don't know what the resolution would be..

Tower Park

March 2nd, 2009, 05:53 PM

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/MidwestRegionalRailSystem.jpghttp://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde-6.jpg

A public meeting to organize support for passenger rail service to Green Bay and elsewhere will be held this Wednesday (March 4) at 6:30 p.m. at the Titletown Brewing Co. Apparently it’s being put together by Frank Ingram of Green Bay, who’s featured in the Press-Gazette article posted by Night Rider above.

By the way, here is the first paragraph of the PG article that got lopped off: “Government intervention helped kill passenger rail service in Wisconsin but now could help bring it back to life, supporters of rail service say.” Above photo of a Chicago & North Western Railroad diesel passenger train in Green Bay in 1942 ran with today’s Press-Gazette article.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090302/GPG0101/903020545/1978

Tower Park

March 2nd, 2009, 06:51 PM

This was posted at the Press-Gazette today: Anyone who wants to support Fox Valley passenger rail should send an email to gbpassrail@new.rr.com

jerkylips999

March 2nd, 2009, 07:42 PM

Morse

March 3rd, 2009, 12:48 AM

this is probably old news, but I heard this for the first time today... (from press-gazette)

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090302/GPG0101/903020553/1978

Vander Leest's family owns $1.3 million worth of business property on Military Avenue, but that has nothing to do with the stance he is taking against roundabouts, he said.

"Obviously, I represent the district that elected me, and my constituents are nine or 10 to one against roundabouts," he said.

Sure....NOTHING to do with it. Not that this guy had much cred in my book to begin with, but any that was there is gone now..

Dr. Evil Leest says, "that will be ONE MILLION DOLLARS!" mwahahahaha

Guy Zima-But Dr. Evil Leest one million dollars isn't exactly a lot of money anymore. Don't you think that you should ask for more?

Dr. Evil Leest-That will be ONE MILLION DOLLARS AND A HAM SANDWICH, mwahahahaha.

On a serious note, some good recognition for Broadway. Maybe this will help draw developers. I also read in the RDA minutes that The Gorman company was interested in doing some housing on Broadway. I hope so! They do outstanding work.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090302/GPG03/90302143/1978

Night Rider

March 3rd, 2009, 02:17 AM

Dr. Evil Leest says, "that will be ONE MILLION DOLLARS!" mwahahahaha

Guy Zima-But Dr. Evil Leest one million dollars isn't exactly a lot of money anymore. Don't you think that you should ask for more?

Dr. Evil Leest-That will be ONE MILLION DOLLARS AND A HAM SANDWICH, mwahahahaha.

On a serious note, some good recognition for Broadway. Maybe this will help draw developers. I also read in the RDA minutes that The Gorman company was interested in doing some housing on Broadway. I hope so! They do outstanding work.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090302/GPG03/90302143/1978

Nice mwhahahaha's! Is it true Dr. Evil Leest lives in his parents basement? Not that there is anything wrong with that.
:nuts:

Tower Park

March 3rd, 2009, 11:10 PM

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde-9.jpghttp://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde-1-1.jpg

On a serious note, some good recognition for Broadway. Maybe this will help draw developers. I also read in the RDA minutes that The Gorman company was interested in doing some housing on Broadway. I hope so! They do outstanding work.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090302/GPG03/90302143/1978

Congratulations to On Broadway, Inc. for receiving one of five Great American Main Street Awards from the National Trust for Historic Preservation! Sounds like taking on the huge Larsen Green project played a major role in the group getting the award. Above photo by H. Marc Larson of the Press-Gazette.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090303/GPG0101/903030548/1207/GPG01

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090303/GPG03/903030583/1207/GPG01

Green Bay's Broadway District named tops in nation
Historic revitalization program honored

BY RICHARD RYMAN • RRYMAN@GREENBAYPRESSGAZETTE.COM • MARCH 3, 2009

Green Bay's Broadway District was named one of the top historic revitalization programs in the nation Monday at a conference in Chicago.

"We get to now state that we are one of the best in the country at what we do," said Kelly Czypinski, executive director of On Broadway Inc.

On Broadway was among five recipients of the Great American Main Street Awards, a program of the National Trust for Historic Preservation. Ten Main communities, of more than 1,300 in 40 states, were finalists.

National Main Street Awards honor exceptional accomplishments in revitalizing historic and traditional downtowns and neighborhood commercial districts.

"Broadway works for a lot of reasons," said Mayor Jim Schmitt. "The management, the volunteers, the entrepreneurs in that area, and the city. They are all involved."

Broadway became a Main Street program in 1995, when city and business leaders decided the blighted downtown district should be more than a home to bars and drunken patrons.

"Faced with high crime and nuisance businesses, the organization proved that having a vision and the support of the community can completely transform a neighborhood," said Doug Loescher, director of the National Trust Main Street Center.

"This Main Street program has become a model for other communities to follow for sustainability."

Naletta Burr, the fourth of five executive directors who've guided On Broadway, said it was the first urban Main Street program in Wisconsin. Previously, only smaller communities were members.

"We hear at the state and national levels that no other program has overcome the challenges we have," Burr said.

Those challenges included replacing taverns, an adult bookstore and older commercial buildings with restaurants, specialty retailers and offices.

At least five new mixed-use buildings were added to the district and many more were rehabilitated.

The city streetscaped the district and On Broadway acquired the 22-acre Larsen Canning Co. site on North Broadway for redevelopment, an ongoing project.

"There have been tremendous changes," said Mark Beerntsen, owner of Beerntsen's Candies, 200 N. Broadway. "I can't think of anything that (has been done) that is a detriment."

In the district's 14 years, the program calculates that it has created a net of 907 new jobs and increased the tax base by $45 million. It also estimates the district received $49.9 million in private investment and $4.2 million in public investment.

"If you know what Broadway looked like 14 years ago … that says a lot about the community investment in the area. They worked hard to do this," said Tracy Heaser, a spokeswoman for On Broadway.

According to the national Main Street Web site, the Main Street approach advocates a return to community self-reliance, local empowerment and the rebuilding of traditional commercial districts based on their unique assets: distinctive architecture, a pedestrian-friendly environment, personal service, local ownership and a sense of community.

Broadway District's improvements highlighted in national award

BY RICHARD RYMAN • RRYMAN@GREENBAYPRESSGAZETTE.COM • MARCH 3, 2009

The drunks, the adult bookstore and the weeds growing through the sidewalk are gone. Businesses sprout everywhere, shoppers visit a wide variety of specialty shops and restaurants, and new development is ongoing.

For that and other accomplishments, the Broadway district on Monday received one of five Great American Main Street Awards during the National Main Street Conference in Chicago.

"It's a huge compliment to every single business owner who took a risk to open on Broadway and to all the volunteers," said Naletta Burr, former director of On Broadway Inc.

The National Main Street Awards honor exceptional accomplishments in revitalizing historic and traditional downtowns and neighborhood commercial districts. Main Street is a program of the National Trust for Historic Preservation.

"I think it's probably well deserved. They've done a lot of good work since they came into being (in 1995)," said Mark Beerntsen, owner of Beerntsen's Candies, which has been on Broadway for 84 years.

The 48-block Broadway business improvement district is bounded by Mather Street to the north, West Mason Street to the south, Ashland Avenue to the west and the Fox River to the east. It includes 33 retail shops, 12 restaurants, 28 services, 17 offices, and 13 buildings for arts and entertainment.

According to On Broadway's calculations, improvements in the district resulted in more than 900 new jobs and an increase in the tax base from $25 million to $70 million. It said $49.9 million of private money and $4.2 million of public money were invested in the district since 1995.

Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt said the award will be a useful economic development tool.

"As we continue to brand the city … this needs to be brought to the forefront," Schmitt said. "This is a special place that works. The businesses are doing well, the customers are happy and we are seeing a growth in property values."

Burr said the award recognizes a long list of public/private accomplishments, including the work of community police officers to fight crime in the district, the city's streetscaping project and the acquisition by On Broadway of the 22-acre Larsen Canning Co. site, now called Larsen Green, for redevelopment.

"It's not typical for a Main Street program to buy a $6 million property," said Greg Larsen, On Broadway president.

Kelly Czypinski, On Broadway executive director, said Larsen Green was the tipping point in the award decision.

"No other Main Street district has done anything like that on that scale," she said.

Plans are to convert the former vegetable-processing site into a mixed-used retail and residential development.

Vincent Urban Walker & Associates insurance agency was the first to move to the site, rehabilitating an office building. The crown jewel is the new three-story building at Broadway and Dousman Street occupied by Shopko Express and the Green Bay Area Chamber of Commerce.

Burr said developers — such as John Hopfensperger and Steve Boyer — risked putting money into the district, as did many individual business owners.

Not every business or development was successful, but most were, and all helped change the district, Czypinski said.

"Businesses have lifecycles. Sometimes businesses only last for five years. You have to look at the net gain," Czypinski said.

The Main Street program takes a four-point approach to development: building design, economic restructuring, promotions and organization. On Broadway added a fifth element: promotional events.

The district sponsors a weekly farmer's market during the summer and other events, such as Pumpkin Palooza, Taste of Broadway and Winterfest, to help fund the organization and draw people to the district.

"Even with all the effort that's made and how great the area is working, we still need more people to come and really experience Broadway," Schmitt said. "We are hoping this recognition draws even more people to the area."

MAIN STREET FINALISTS
The five recipients of Great American Main Street Awards were:
On Broadway Inc., Green Bay
Federal Hill Main Street, Baltimore
Livermore Downtown Inc., Livermore, Calif.
Main Street El Dorado, El Dorado, Ark.
Rehoboth Beach Main Street Inc., Rehoboth Beach, Del.

Night Rider

March 3rd, 2009, 11:28 PM

The crown jewel is the new three-story building at Broadway and Dousman Street occupied by Shopko Express and the Green Bay Area Chamber of Commerce.

The building is nice, but I don't think I'd go as far as the "crown jewel". I guess it lowers the expectations for the rest of the place once the "crown jewel" is in place. But congratulations are in order, maybe downtown Green Bay should take some lessons on what the Broadway area is doing.

jerkylips999

March 3rd, 2009, 11:44 PM

The building is nice, but I don't think I'd go as far as the "crown jewel". I guess it lowers the expectations for the rest of the place once the "crown jewel" is in place. But congratulations are in order, maybe downtown Green Bay should take some lessons on what the Broadway area is doing.

Sadly, it probably is the crown jewel right now. Not to say that we won't have something of a few more...carats...down the road.

I guess in the meantime we could refer to it as the most finely polished turd of downtown..

Maybe in this time of recession, a lack of tall buildings is a good thing?

:badnews:

Night Rider

March 4th, 2009, 12:49 AM

most finely polished turd of downtown..

LOL, I guess that's another way to sum it up.

Puant

March 4th, 2009, 01:20 AM

I'm obviously very happy for the Broadway district for winning this award.

What I think makes the district most special is that there is no single "crown jewel"; rather, it's success is related to the sum of all parts working very nicely together. Old & new, mixes of uses, good street layout & sidewalks.

That new Shopko Express / Chamber building is nice but I'm still a little perplexed as to why that nice prominent front corner door does not allow me to walk into Shopko, and that I've got to instead walk aroudn to the back of the building to get in. Huh? OK I understand there are probably some "shopko store layout standards" and they felt the need to put the checkout at a certain place and so on. But this building 'breaks the mold' for Shopko in so many other ways, so why didn't they also deviate from their standards when it came to the front door? Ah well I don't want to complain, I'm happy they did what they did there, overall it looks very good. I think we discussed this before, sorry.

Night Rider

March 4th, 2009, 03:04 AM

That new Shopko Express / Chamber building is nice but I'm still a little perplexed as to why that nice prominent front corner door does not allow me to walk into Shopko, and that I've got to instead walk aroudn to the back of the building to get in.

I would guess the reason there is only one entrance and it is located in the back is because they don't want to be robbed blind. If they have two exits they would have to staff a register at both exits. If they are forced to have only one exit it makes sense to have it by the parking lot. I was also surprised they didn't make that a entrance/exit from Broadway. But I'm sure it comes down to money. I'm sure their losses from theft are higher then their other locations.

Nativist

March 4th, 2009, 05:50 AM

Why would you assume that?

Night Rider

March 4th, 2009, 03:34 PM

jerkylips999

March 4th, 2009, 04:45 PM

mgk920

March 4th, 2009, 05:34 PM

I see they are a dead issue after squiggy cast the tie-breaker to put in a boatload of red lights. I guess now the store owners will have to come up with someone else to blame when business drops on Military after reconstruction.
I wouldn't be surprised if 10-20 years after this is completed, those intersections be rebuilt one at a time as roundabouts. Remember that as part of the WI 29 and US 41 upgrades, 24 roundabouts will be built on the surface streets, including a boatload in the Taylor/Shawano/Dousman/Packerland area.

As the locals see the wisdom of WisDOT's actions in that area and they spread into other areas, opinions will change. Most of the opposition that I am seeing is of the 'inertia and resistance to new ideas' kind.

Mike

Tower Park

March 4th, 2009, 06:42 PM

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/images-2.jpg

Nearly $30 million in improvements on I-43 from Green Bay to Port Washington is one of the big-ticket items in Wisconsin in the state’s first allocation of federal stimulus transportation dollars. Also close to $600,000 in bridge work on Highway 41 between Green Bay and Abrams. Other major projects are $98 million in work on I-94 from Milwaukee south, $40 million in work on I-94 in Dane County and at least $25 million in Highway 41 work in the Oshkosh area. The I-43 work is identified as “preventive maintenance.” No details yet other than that some of the work takes place between Green Bay and Manitowoc and some between Manitowoc and Port Washington. Contracts will be awarded starting in April and work starts 30-45 days after that.

media.journalinteractive.com/documents/roads_030409.pdf

www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/40691902.html

GBSurveyor

March 4th, 2009, 08:35 PM

As the locals see the wisdom of WisDOT's actions in that area and they spread into other areas, opinions will change. Most of the opposition that I am seeing is of the 'inertia and resistance to new ideas' kind.

Mike
Is that the politically correct way to refer to the morons in Green Bay that fear change?:lol:

Whatever- I really didn't think that the roundabouts would stay in the plan anyways. I am fine with the outcome at least its not 6 lanes or maybe I should just wait to the next meeting and they may reconsider it.

Does alderman vanderleast have direct ties to some property on Military? If so why was he able to vote? Maybe someone should file a recall on him.

Kramerica

March 5th, 2009, 08:41 AM

I wouldn't be surprised if 10-20 years after this is completed, those intersections be rebuilt one at a time as roundabouts.

I would be very surprised. That would cost money and there will always be higher priorities than replacing still-functional signals with roundabouts. The only roundabout projects I see around the state are for projects that are reconstructing the roadway anyway.

Morse

March 6th, 2009, 01:21 AM

Has anyone caught wind if Green Bay will get stimulus money for the mall, CityDeck, Children's museum?

Night Rider

March 6th, 2009, 01:54 AM

Has anyone caught wind if Green Bay will get stimulus money for the mall, CityDeck, Children's museum?

No, but I see it's going to pay for health insurance & low cost housing remodeling. Are we supposed to believe this spending will create long term jobs. Not getting political. But someone please tell me is there any money that gov't can now spend that isn't "stimulus"! I know people need health insurance, but don't call it stimulus.

sr22ger

March 6th, 2009, 02:20 AM

No, but I see it's going to pay for health insurance & low cost housing remodeling. Are we supposed to believe this spending will create long term jobs. Not getting political. But someone please tell me is there any money that gov't can now spend that isn't "stimulus"! I know people need health insurance, but don't call it stimulus.

Keeping contractors busy is stimulus.

I would guess the reason there is only one entrance and it is located in the back is because they don't want to be robbed blind. If they have two exits they would have to staff a register at both exits.But I'm sure it comes down to money. I'm sure their losses from theft are higher then their other locations.

Did I miss the sarcasm in this post or do you honestly think this?

The parking lot is in back, the entrance is in back. Do I like it, hell no. Just like the reverse building on the corner of B and Velp in Suamico. It faces away from the street. Not kidding, the service entrances to each unit face the street. At least the Shopko building can probably be changed to allow the street entrance if they so choose.

Puant

March 6th, 2009, 02:44 AM

I don't think the mall demo made the stimulus list. So it's back to what I proposed a few months ago: All of us SSC'ers will have to gather some dynamite, backhoes, etc and take care of it ourselves some weekend. While we're at it, let's take a concrete saw over to the Shopko building and cut a doorway through the front entrance into the store. We'll all get arrested but it's our form of "civil protest" against wrongdoings, to support a good cause (quality, attractive urbanism). :wallbash:

Morse

March 6th, 2009, 03:18 AM

hckystr42

March 6th, 2009, 04:59 AM

Puant-Is this just a guess? Like Danillo said, the mall demo and CityDeck would have been money well spent.

The City Deck didn't make the list? Great, now we will have a half finished boardwalk next to a half demoed building across the street from a vacant mall.

GBSurveyor

March 6th, 2009, 05:10 AM

Is there a documented list? I skimmed a little but didn't see much for specifics.

WI Recovery Link (http://www.recovery.wisconsin.gov/index.asp?locid=164)

US Link (http://www.recovery.gov/)

Morse

March 6th, 2009, 05:54 AM

The City Deck didn't make the list? Great, now we will have a half finished boardwalk next to a half demoed building across the street from a vacant mall.

I wasn't implying that this did not make the list. I was just agreeing with Danillo from awhile back in that these would be excellent projects, make sense for Green Bay and I sincerely hope that they will get funding. I was just wandering if Puant had heard the mall did not make the list or if this is just a guess? I know that some money has started to trickle down, but is it up to the state to distribute or determine what projects will receive funding? One would think that Doyle being here for the CityDeck groundbreaking, he should understand the significance of this for Green Bay and would help with this. Undoubtedy, he knows about the mall as well. I have not heard anything yet. Hopefully news will be forthcoming. Gol' darn it the heck, I want to know:rant:!

Puant

March 6th, 2009, 06:59 AM

I don't know for certain whether or not the mall demo made the list, but I assume that if the stimulus included the mall demolition, the news would have jumped on it.

Danillo

March 6th, 2009, 05:26 PM

Regarding the stimulus, I don't think it has been decided if things like the CityDeck or mall demo will get funding. I think the two items in the paper were just those that explicitly got money, but they says nothing about any other projects.

One worry I have about the CityDeck getting funding is that it could become political propaganda, as in, some politician against the plan makes and argument that, "X-million was spent on some deck behind some buildings in Green Bay!" and therefore is money wasted. I remember during the debates, McCain (who, incidentally, I do like a lot) criticizing Obama for trying to get funding for a $3 million dollar "overhead projector" in Chicago. Well, that "overhead projector" is the Zeiss sky projector in the main theater! Whether it's good for the feds to fund that is one thing, but clearly that projector is worth millions of dollars. I can see the CityDeck being characterized similarly.

On the other hand, the mall would be, I think, somewhat tougher to mis-characterize. It's removing blight, it should be able to be completed this year, and it's opening up "new" space for development. I mean, I still think both projects could fit within the framework of the plan, I'd just worry about the politics of the CityDeck.

Finally, regarding the ShopKo. I think Night Rider is probably right that they didn't want two entrances because of theft. What I wish they had done is put the entrance on Dousman so that it was still near the parking but also on a main street. Even if they had made the "windows" into display spaces it would be better. As it is now, there is no interaction between the building and the street... at all. The use is great, but as an urban design it's quite poor.

Puant

March 7th, 2009, 03:08 AM

A Taxpayer Rally will be held from 11 a.m. to noon Saturday at the Titletown Brewing Company, 200 Dousman St., Green Bay.

This is an outdoor rally to protest against government programs and federal bailouts.

Protesters are encouraged to bring rally posters, flags and anything else to express the rally peacefully and respectfully.

~From the Press-Gazette (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090306/GPG0101/90306154/1978)

Navarino Rezdnt

March 7th, 2009, 08:23 PM

I just spent 15 minutes in a traffic jam on Walnut St. because of the hundredds of protesters on their cross-town march to Kagen's office. I'm really surprised at the turnout being that it was only announced a day or so ago. I'm wondering if they had a parade permit. :) Anyway, it was interesting reading all the posters and signs they were carrying, kind of like watching the graffiti when waiting for a train.

Fillmore

March 8th, 2009, 06:01 AM

mgk920

March 8th, 2009, 07:25 AM

Hello All,
Can anyone confirm/deny the U2 rumor at Lambeau field in late summer? Soldier Field is a go, but apparently promoters want Lambeau to separate the fan base away from Milwaukee and Madison. I found this on the u2 rumor website: u2tours.com
I have no idea of a 'yes/no' answer on this, but one of the things that the Packers have expressly stated a major reason for the Lambeau Field renovations was to expand its usefulness to things beyond just NFL games in order to improve the team's bottom line and hosting major concerts was one of the stated proposed expanded uses, so that would certainly fit in. We shall see.

Mike

Geography Teacher

March 8th, 2009, 02:16 PM

I have no idea of a 'yes/no' answer on this, but one of the things that the Packers have expressly stated a major reason for the Lambeau Field renovations was to expand its usefulness to things beyond just NFL games in order to improve the team's bottom line and hosting major concerts was one of the stated proposed expanded uses, so that would certainly fit in. We shall see.

Mike

This has frustrated me. I give the Packers the benefit of the doubt as a successful franchise and a vital part of the community and economy. But this is one time that I feel that they were just paying lip service to help get the votes for the renovated Lambeau Field. They have not made any effort or taken any (minor, I believe) risks to make concerts happen.

I checked the u2tours.com website and couldn't find any mention of Lambeau Field. Then I did a Google search and didn't find anything anywhere about the rumor.

When you combine the odds that the Packers are against concerts with the odds that the biggest band in the world probably has no interest in Green Bay, you get a miniscule chance of this happening. Concert dates will be announced tomorrow (Monday, March 9).

That being said, if they ARE coming, I will go absolutely nuts. :banana:

Jschmuck

March 8th, 2009, 05:43 PM

Maybe U2 should play at a corner rooftop DT GB, plenty of buildings that uhh.... aren't too tall :)

Green Bay Native

March 8th, 2009, 06:13 PM

The "Late Summer" portion is the reason I would doubt this would happen as the Packers want the field in "pristine" condition for football season and a rock concert that soon to that could give them the excuse that there would not be enough time for the field to recover from the damage from the concert setup and fans on the field.

Puant

March 8th, 2009, 06:43 PM

If U2 does come I want them to modify their song "Where the Streets Have No .. Roundabouts".

A few other modifications for Green Bay:

I want to run
I want to hide
I want to tear down the malls
That still stand downtown
I want to reach out
To the city of doubts
Where the streets have no roundabouts!

I want to feel, city hall in my face
See that dark cloud appear, without factual base
No homeless shelter, no passenger rail
Where the streets have no roundabouts

Where the streets have no roundabouts
Where the streets have no roundabouts

We're still building parking lots
Then burning downtown , burning downtown

And when I go there
I'll park there with you...
(its all we can do)

The city's a bust
And our town turns to rust
We're beaten and blown by ignorance
Trampled into dust
I'll show you a place
Near da Fox River thereabouts
Where the streets have no roundabouts

Where the streets have no roundabouts
Where the streets have no roundabouts

Still building freeways
Then burning downtown
Burning downtown
And when I go there
I park there with you
(its all we can do)

youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyEgIaBlCJE) at 1:55 into this video imagine this is Lambeau field and this is the music eminating from it.

Green Bay Sponge

March 8th, 2009, 11:13 PM

If U2 does come I want them to modify their song "Where the Streets Have No .. Roundabouts".

A few other modifications for Green Bay:

I want to run
I want to hide
I want to tear down the mall
That still stands downtown
I want to reach out
To the city of doubts
Where the streets have no roundabouts!

I want to feel, city hall in my face
See that dark cloud appear, without factual base
No homeless shelter, no passenger rail
Where the streets have no roundabouts

Where the streets have no roundabouts
Where the streets have no roundabouts

We're still building parking lots
Then burning downtown , burning downtown

And when I go there
I'll park there with you...
(its all we can do)

The city's a bust
And our town turns to rust
We're beaten and blown by ignorance
Trampled into dust
I'll show you a place
Near da Fox River thereabouts
Where the streets have no roundabouts

Where the streets have no roundabouts
Where the streets have no roundabouts

Still building freeways
Then burning downtown
Burning downtown
And when I go there
I park there with you
(its all we can do)

youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyEgIaBlCJE) at 1:55 into this video imagine this is Lambeau field and this is the music eminating from it.

I moved the 's', since we only have one mall downtown.

~~~

Here's mine: a parody of the chorus of "The Power of Love" by Huey Lewis & The News

Don't take roundabouts, don't take parking lots...
Don't take a shopping mall to fix our town...
It's strong and it's sudden but it's hard sometimes...
But it might just change our lives...
That's the power of urban renewal!

MattGiguere

March 9th, 2009, 06:39 AM

As a seasonal employee for PMI Entertainment Group, and a friend of an exec., I can assure you PMI has tried Lambeau for concerts before. Usually I can get an unofficial, "off the record" response from this contact. I have not gotten any information on U2, yet, I'll continue to try.

Regardless, how could they (the Packers) say no to U2. Imagine the PR push for Historic Lambeau Field, not that it needs it. This would be a great sell for the city of Green Bay as a whole, though. But with Ticketmaster/LiveNation about to roll the dice in a game of Monopoly, the prices for tickets would be un-godly high. Especially if they get their way with their auction-ticket system. Those buggers want us to play eBay on every ticket for sale. Senator Kohl knows what I'm talkin' 'bout: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=azarrIlr5hCw&refer=home

Danillo

March 9th, 2009, 04:59 PM

I would be stunned if U2 came to Lambeau. I'm a huge fan, and would love to see it, but considering that the US leg of the tour is supposed to kick off Sept. 12 in Chicago... I can't see the Packers taking that risk with the field. Furthermore, I believe the US leg is supposed to be 6 weeks, and I'm guessing in that time there would be a lot of cities ahead of Green Bay in the pecking order. On their last US stadium tours (ZooTV and PopMart) they played in Madison, which is easier on the venue because it's turf. Plus Madison is bigger, has the university, and is closer to other population centers. But really, they probably could add another Chicago date and sell that out more easily than making the trip up here. Plus they like Chicago. I'll be keeping my finger crossed, but my guess is I'll have to travel to see them this time around, like usual.

Geography Teacher

March 9th, 2009, 06:37 PM

. . . . no Lambeau Field concert. See the tour dates here (http://www.u2tours.com/news/article.src?ID=1332).

There are 16 U.S. dates and they are all in major population centers and/or college towns. There is only one date for the entire Midwest, and it's the September 12th Soldier Field event. That will be one tough ticket.

:dance:

Danillo

March 9th, 2009, 06:59 PM

^^ I think that is somewhat preliminary though. There will be more dates added I'd bet, and probably another North American leg in 2010. I'd guess that Chicago will have more than one date. During the Vertigo tour they, across two legs, filled the United Center for six days plus one at the Bradley Center. It would depend on sales. It's been the usual practice for U2 to do multiple North American legs on their tours.

Geography Teacher

March 9th, 2009, 08:53 PM

Morse

March 9th, 2009, 11:14 PM

Members of the Greater Green Bay community have collaborated on a new U2 tribute album to coincide with the launch of the U2360 tour.

In addition to "Where the Streets Have No Roundabouts" (Puant), the album includes the following tracks (including the artist[s]):

Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own (Jim Schmitt)
Elevation (rooftop performance by St. Vincent Hospital associates)
Discotheque (nighttime downtown Green Bay patrons)
Gone (Kaap's associates)
Angel of Howard (AMS executives Wally Hilliard and Ron Weyers)
Numb (Guy Zima)
Lemon (architects of State of Wisconsin building)
Mysterious Ways (Green Bay City Council)
City of Few Blinding Lights (ensemble)
Vertigopackgo (Ashwaubenon village president Jerry Menne)
Even Better Than the Real Thing (Greater Green Bay Urban Renewal Project [GREGBY])
All I Want Is You [To Build a New Stadium] (Green Bay Bullfrogs)
No High Rise on the Horizon (Vetter Denk associates)
Moment of Surrender [Roundabouts Part Deux] (Chris Wery)
Walk On (Bay Park Square shoppers)
In a Little While (Vetter Denk associates)
I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For (Skyscraper City Community)

If you hurry up and act now, the producers of U2360 will include these additional timeless hits to you order:

Bicycle Race-As performed by Queen, a dedication to the green bike program in Downtown Green Bay.

Drive-Singing the line, "who's going to drive you home, tonight?" a harmonious tribute by the Green Bay Police Department with conjunction of the Cars to John Vander Leest.

You Dropped a Bomb on Me-This classic 80's hit by the Gap Band as remade by the Children's Museum of Green Bay on their future home.

Were Not Gonna Take It-A powerful group effort, only rivaled by "We are the World," this classic number boasts powerful vocals and political undertones. As inspired by the roundabout situation in Green Bay, the Military Business Associations rendition with help from Dee Snider and Twisted Sister.

Sledgehammer-A duet sung by Peter Gabriel and a special inspired performance by Puant of SSC. Drawing inspiration from the defunct Washington Commons in Green Bay, this dynamic duo delivers a "punch you in the face, but catches you before you fall" tune. Puant has been called the "song bird of his generation."

Land of Confusion-Genesis' tribute to the Green Bay City Council.

Won't Get Duped Again-As performed by Guy Zima, this musical number is Guy's take on The Who's, "Won't Get Fooled Again." Drawing from past experiences and a personal struggle with confusion, professionalism, character and respectful and polite conduct, Guy delivers this gut-wrenching performance sure to make you swoon.

And finally, to all SSC Green Bay forum members-'Don't Stop Believin.' Green Bay can only get better!

Green Bay Sponge

March 10th, 2009, 04:32 AM

How about this one?:

"Heart of Glass" by Blondie, dedicated to Mayor Schmitt.
"Neutron Dance" by the Pointer Sisters, dedicated to the downtown Green Bay developers.

Puant

March 10th, 2009, 04:48 AM

You guys ROCK this forum!!:righton::righton::righton:

I've been and continue to be addicted to this thread for over 3 years now. Normally I lose interest in stuff after just a few minutes :lol:

No doubt, Green Bay has shit going on for development but that doesn't mean our little forum doesn't kick ass:dance:

gbmphillips

March 10th, 2009, 05:32 AM

You are NEVER going to see a concert at Lambeau Field. They are not going to risk damage to the turf....ok never say never......if it was Feb or Mar there could be a chance.

Puant

March 10th, 2009, 05:44 AM

I say we rally and refuse to pay another single dime in sales tax until they let U2 play there!

Green Bay Sponge

March 10th, 2009, 06:33 AM

I say we rally and refuse to pay another single dime in sales tax until they let U2 play there!

I most certainly agree!:righton:

...only if those pieces of turf are replaced...

Navarino Rezdnt

March 10th, 2009, 09:58 AM

You are NEVER going to see a concert at Lambeau Field. They are not going to risk damage to the turf....ok never say never......if it was Feb or Mar there could be a chance.

There is a simple solution to the turf issue. I was a stagehand in the '90s and when there was an event at the arena during hockey season they covered the ice with sheets of plywood for the crowd to stand on. The next day the plywood was removed and the ice was undamaged. The same thing can be done for the field at Lambeau. Remove the plywood, water the turf, let the sun shine on it to get it recovering for a day or so and it's as good as it was before the concert. But I don't know for sure, do they still have that hybrid turf that's part grass and part synthetic material? If it's just plain grass, there shouldn't be a problem. That's what construction companies do when they build an addition to a building that's surrounded by grass. They put down plywood and drive heavy equipment like bulldozers and such on it to save the turf. Grass is pretty resilient to being flattened out with plywood, then watered and given sunshine. The cost of the plywood would be paid for by the promoter, thereby reducing revenue.

There might be an issue with rigging for the light and speaker towers though.

In my mind turf damage is not an issue. The issue is the population density of NE Wisconsin and the UP and whether or not they can sell enough tickets.

I'm listening to Rattle & Hum.

Danillo

March 10th, 2009, 04:20 PM

You are NEVER going to see a concert at Lambeau Field. They are not going to risk damage to the turf....ok never say never......if it was Feb or Mar there could be a chance.

In my mind turf damage is not an issue. The issue is the population density of NE Wisconsin and the UP and whether or not they can sell enough tickets.

I think you are both right. I don't think the Packers are likely to want a concert at Lambeau out of fear for the turf, and a promoter would have to justify coming up here and trying to sell 70,000 tickets when that can almost certainly be done more easily elsewhere. I suppose a spring concert is possible if the act is bound and determined to play at Lambeau, but I'm guessing that four Irishmen really don't care all that much one way or the other about Lambeau.

Night Rider

March 10th, 2009, 07:45 PM

If he had a SUV he would have gotten away.....

Police: Brookfield man robs credit union, dies in crash
By Sharif Durhams of the Journal Sentinel

Posted: Mar. 10, 2009 9:24 a.m.

A Brookfield man died just after robbing a credit union in Harvard, Ill., when the car he was driving crashed into a tree, according to Harvard police.

The man, identified as Robert Menk, 56, was fleeing police in a Toyota Prius on Monday morning when his car crashed, according to a report in the Northwest Herald of McHenry County, Ill.

An autopsy on Menk is planned Tuesday morning.

jerkylips999

March 10th, 2009, 11:12 PM

hckystr42

March 11th, 2009, 01:35 AM

Green Bay Native

March 11th, 2009, 02:01 AM

Navarino Rezdnt

March 11th, 2009, 03:47 AM

From the Press Gazette today. We finally have our wish list.

-- Green Bay:...$25 million to move coal piles from out of the downtown area,... and $2.5 million for demolishing the downtown mall and developing infrastructure.

From the list, I think moving the coal piles and demolishing the mall are very important for new development that would improve the local economy. When and if Green Bay gets stimulus money, those two should be a high priority because if the economy does turn around in 18 months or so, those sites would then be ready to go for for development.

As for the library request, I'd think that would be used for updating technology and facility improvements, being that the building is aging.

Night Rider

March 11th, 2009, 04:01 AM

From the list, I think moving the coal piles and demolishing the mall are very important for new development that would improve the local economy. When and if Green Bay gets stimulus money, those two should be a high priority because if the economy does turn around in 18 months or so, those sites would then be ready to go for for development.

As for the library request, I'd think that would be used for updating technology and facility improvements, being that the building is aging.

Compared the East library, the downtown one is the "crown jewel". Maybe they have to evaluate other ones, before they toss the money in one spot.

Of course, some of these are exciting things, that will surely spif up downtown. Many of these things don't appear to me to be shovel ready...or for that matter, any kind of ready. We all could argue of few of these might create some long term jobs, but much of this really is hard to digest. Very sad we are running up this huge deficit for these items!

GBSurveyor

March 11th, 2009, 04:14 AM

Here is a link to Channel 5 website- Video (http://www.wfrv.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoid=48054@wfrv.dayport.com&navCatId=9)

Night Rider

March 11th, 2009, 04:21 AM

Here is a link to Channel 5 website- Video (http://www.wfrv.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoid=48054@wfrv.dayport.com&navCatId=9)

Just saw that, GREAT NEWS!:banana:

Navarino Rezdnt

March 11th, 2009, 04:39 AM

Many of these things don't appear to me to be shovel ready...or for that matter, any kind of ready.

You're probably right on that. I'm not very hopeful that any of them will get done. It might be more likely that stimulus money will go to pay for lesser projects that are already underway. It's like that earmark the city got a couple years ago for improving Walnut St. Where's that money now?

Good news that Watermark might finally be getting going.

Nativist

March 11th, 2009, 04:44 AM

Funny. I wonder if JV ever gets sick of repeating the same thing.

titletown

March 11th, 2009, 05:07 AM

Typical small town media... they talk about RiverCenter and then it says on the screen, "Astor Place Summer Start." They never know what they are talking about. :lol:

I just got back from San Jose, Costa Rica last night. The city is kind of a dirty old city in Central America, but they have 2 things going good for it, both have to do with street life. Here are some pics I pulled from the internet to show as an example.

Avenida Central, which is a 9 block pedestrian boulevard of shops, parks, and plazas.

http://inlinethumb42.webshots.com/43433/1240812695047921465S600x600Q85.jpg (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1240812695047921465kVptcG)

Also "El Pueblo," which is like an entertainment/shopping district. Unforunately here we are again with Green Bay being in such a harsh climate up here it would only work well May-Sept.

http://www.caricohenderson.com/_account/images/listing/542-2.jpg

gbmphillips

March 11th, 2009, 06:26 AM

Hey wait did I just see a pig fly.....opps nope just Vetter giving is annual it's gonna start.....opps there that pig flying again.........

hckystr42

March 11th, 2009, 03:19 PM

Hey wait did I just see a pig fly.....opps nope just Vetter giving is annual it's gonna start.....opps there that pig flying again.........

I for once agree with you gbmphillips. It would be great it if started by this summer, but I will believe it when I see it.

Night Rider

March 11th, 2009, 04:15 PM

Danillo

March 11th, 2009, 04:39 PM

It also includes for the county request of $10,000,000 for the library downtown. Not sure what they are planning to do there.

As for the library request, I'd think that would be used for updating technology and facility improvements, being that the building is aging.

I just saw a rendering for the central library expansion on Monday. The plaza area on the SW side of the building would become a new addition. It looked very glassy and really very nice. I'm quite excited about it. I think an argument can be made about whether or not it falls under what the stimulus plan is supposed to do, but it certainly looked like $10 million dollars worth to me, and it would be a great asset to the downtown and community. As an aside, I sort of rediscovered the library recently, and it is a great resource and people do use it.

Here is a link to Channel 5 website- Video (http://www.wfrv.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoid=48054@wfrv.dayport.com&navCatId=9)

Absolutely zero new news there. I mean, I'm keeping my fingers crossed and hopefully something can happen soon and hopefully it will be quality, but that story is the same line we've been hearing for how long now?

But man, if the 2nd phase of the CityDeck can get funded, and the mall can be torn down, that would be great. Add in the Children's Museum (which, incidentally, is somewhat of a freestanding structure as part of the parking ramp, and really should be able to be built if the rest of the project doesn't start up right away) and the library addition and that would be very positive progress.

One more thought, I'm not sure about expanding the convention center. There just seems to be a great deal of convention center creep, not just here but around the country. You build one, and then in five years suddenly it's not big enough anymore. It's sort of like what has happened with arenas and stadia around the country, and I'm not sure communities are getting their return on investment for this continual need to build/expand them.

GBSurveyor

March 11th, 2009, 04:39 PM

Is it possible they can build the children's museum by itself without the watermark project. I would guess not. But the mayor is saying the children's museum is shovel ready. This could cause some problems if Vetter pulls another "we're almost ready" move and keeps delaying!
As far as the children's museum. Didn't they say a while back they funds were pretty much raised? Apparently it isn't cheap to build there.

It is my understanding that the childrens museum part of the building had some foundation problems that were not expected and therfore changed the cost structure. From what I have heard in the past that the majority of the building will be constructed from precast concrete, that will assemble very quickly. Anonther componant of this building is the above grade parking that is to provide parking to the Flats building. I guess we will wait and see. I assume that the possibility of any government funding for the Childrens museum will be above and beyond what Mr. vetter is seeking for financing at this point, as that funding source has not been commited to.

jerkylips999

March 11th, 2009, 05:07 PM

One more thought, I'm not sure about expanding the convention center. There just seems to be a great deal of convention center creep, not just here but around the country. You build one, and then in five years suddenly it's not big enough anymore. It's sort of like what has happened with arenas and stadia around the country, and I'm not sure communities are getting their return on investment for this continual need to build/expand them.

I think it depends on how you define "return on investment". More specifically, return on WHOSE investment? Generally these things are privately funded. If the owners/investors are not seeing a return, they will have some decisions to make, but the bigger picture is that more conventions & more visitors will bring a great deal more money to the city. I can only see the expansion of the KI Center as a good thing for the city.

GBSurveyor

March 11th, 2009, 07:15 PM

In case you missed it...

There was some discussion at the second last RDA meeting.

Link to City's website (http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/mins_agd/minutes/20090216MN2085.html).

hckystr42

March 11th, 2009, 11:06 PM

jerkylips999

March 12th, 2009, 12:00 AM

http://greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090311/GPG03/903110649

The article says that Vetter will let us know on March 18 whether the Watermark is a go. While this sounds like the same thing he says every year about this time for some reason I think he might actually get it off the ground this time.

I may be reading more into it than I should, but from the tone of the article it kind of sounded like this is a "now or never" deadline. If Vetter has the funding, fantastic, but if he doesn't I wonder if they're going to give him the boot?

Puant

March 12th, 2009, 03:42 AM

It is my understanding that the childrens museum part of the building had some foundation problems that were not expected and therfore changed the cost structure. From what I have heard in the past that the majority of the building will be constructed from precast concrete, that will assemble very quickly. Anonther componant of this building is the above grade parking that is to provide parking to the Flats building. I guess we will wait and see. I assume that the possibility of any government funding for the Childrens museum will be above and beyond what Mr. vetter is seeking for financing at this point, as that funding source has not been commited to.

I've grown sour of this plan. I don't want to see another slapped-up prefab concrete parking ramp on another prominent corner in the downtown. The children's museum deserves better than that, the downtown deserves more than just prefab slapped up crap. I'm really tired of Vetter and at this point I wish he'd go away. He promised one building that might have turned out pretty nice but could not deliver, and in the mean time he's given us a bunch of garbage. I would like to see the Children's museum bail out of the whole deal and go with a new architect and a new plan. Another parking ramp is just degrading. The gaping holes at the street level are bad enough (look at the new Cherry ramp sometime, the street level has "retail space" but in reality the street frontage is like 70% gaping hole to allow for cars). And then above, the "skyline" streetscape is just yuk. This children's ramp museum might have some cheap colored panels slapped on the sides but it's a thin disguise for just another parking ramp. Does anyone else feel the same way? or should we just be excited that something might get done quickly, and then for the next 50 years we can all look at it and say....uhhhh....ooops this sucks....

GBSurveyor

March 12th, 2009, 04:54 AM

I've grown sour of this plan. I don't want to see another slapped-up prefab concrete parking ramp on another prominent corner in the downtown. The children's museum deserves better than that, the downtown deserves more than just prefab slapped up crap. I'm really tired of Vetter and at this point I wish he'd go away. He promised one building that might have turned out pretty nice but could not deliver, and in the mean time he's given us a bunch of garbage. I would like to see the Children's museum bail out of the whole deal and go with a new architect and a new plan. Another parking ramp is just degrading. The gaping holes at the street level are bad enough (look at the new Cherry ramp sometime, the street level has "retail space" but in reality the street frontage is like 70% gaping hole to allow for cars). And then above, the "skyline" streetscape is just yuk. This children's ramp museum might have some cheap colored panels slapped on the sides but it's a thin disguise for just another parking ramp. Does anyone else feel the same way? or should we just be excited that something might get done quickly, and then for the next 50 years we can all look at it and say....uhhhh....ooops this sucks....
Well, I will agree that its not ideal, but I would like to see the museum built before my kids get to old or before I become a grandparent. Is that wrong? I have come to accecpt the fact that a lot of things suck in this city, take the east branch library. Is that ideal?? A library in a strip mall...The childrens museum plan is far from perfect, but I think the ramp wont be as bad as the other one is. In fact if they did away with the bank drive thru, it wouldn't be nearly as bad, IMO. For now downtown needs parking and a ramp trumps surface parking. I haven't visualized a better spot for connected parking to the Flats and the Watermark then the plan presented, so unless parking could be eliminted this might be the best option.

Night Rider

March 12th, 2009, 04:54 AM

hckystr42

March 12th, 2009, 04:05 PM

Puant- I agree that there are better ideas out there for a Children's Museum. I definitely don't think of a parking ramp when I'm asked about a museum. However, thinking back to when I was a kid, I don't think I would have cared about what the building looked like as long as I had fun when I was there. Granted we may all want a better design, but as long as the museum is well run and kids enjoy going there, hopefully that will lead to further family friendly development downtown that may be more to our liking architecturally.

Also, is it safe to assume that Astor Place is dead or is there still some hope that if Vetter is able to go ahead with the Watermark that Astor Place will follow closely behind that?

Finally, I stumbled upon the old version of this thread from 2005 and got to reading. I wasn't as interested in downtown Green Bay at that point, but it sounds like Juza got a raw deal with regards to the Younkers building and from what I could tell his plan was definitely the better of the two between him and Vetter. It also seemed a lot more contemporary with things like a wine bar.

Night Rider

March 13th, 2009, 10:48 PM

Congress backs streetcar system for Milwaukee
By Larry Sandler of the Journal Sentinel

Posted: Mar. 13, 2009 12:58 p.m.

Forum
Your toughts on the plan
Ending a 17-year-long dispute, Congress has thrown its support behind a modern streetcar system in downtown Milwaukee.

With local officials deadlocked over how to spend $91.5 million in long-idle federal transit aid, Sen. Herb Kohl and Rep. David Obey quietly inserted a provision in the massive federal omnibus spending bill to hand 60% of the money to the city for a downtown rail line and 40% to Milwaukee County for buses. President Barack Obama signed the $410 billion package into law Wednesday.

That's a victory for Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett, who has championed a downtown streetcar loop, and a defeat for County Executive Scott Walker, who has fought the idea. Kohl and Obey, both Wisconsin Democrats, acted at the urging of Barrett, their former congressional colleague.

Modern streetcars resemble light rail vehicles, but are smaller and less expensive. Otherwise, they spur the same kind of debate as light rail: Supporters say a fixed rail system stimulates economic development and provides a transportation option that is attractive to both visitors and residents, while opponents say it's too costly and isn't as flexible as a bus line.

The $91.5 million is all that remains of $289 million appropriated in late 1991 for public transit in the Milwaukee area. Over the years, officials have debated and rejected plans for a bus-only highway, a full-scale light rail system, a guided electric bus system and reserved bus and car-pool lanes on I-94.

Meanwhile, the federal government took away $48 million and state and local officials agreed to spend $149.5 million on other projects. Wisconsin's congressional delegation fought to keep the money from being diverted to other regions, while pleading with local authorities to settle the issue.

In recent years, Barrett has advocated spending part of the money on modern streetcars and part on express buses, while Walker insisted all of it should be spent on express buses. The Milwaukee Connector study committee has been reviewing both ideas.

At one point, Barrett proposed splitting the money 50-50, which would have provided $45.75 million each for streetcars and express buses. Walker rejected that idea and instead suggested spending half the money on express buses and putting half aside for some future use. Barrett refused.

Now Barrett has $54.9 million to spend on streetcars and Walker has $36.6 million for buses, in addition to the $25.7 million that the federal economic stimulus package is pumping into the Milwaukee County Transit System.

Danillo

March 13th, 2009, 11:14 PM

^^ I wouldn't call that pork at all. The biggest waste in the whole thing was how Milwaukee's "leaders" allowed the money to sit and lose value as they argued for 17 years about what to do.

Jschmuck

March 13th, 2009, 11:38 PM

Night Rider

March 13th, 2009, 11:46 PM

I think its about time Milwaukee get some sort of intracity rail transit. It may be a small circulating line, but that is just the beginning. That line will be expanded upon.

Night Rider, why do you think it is pork?

When a project is snuck into a bill without any debate.. that's pork (in my mind). I don't care if it's a project I like or don't like. I'm not knocking the project itself. I think it has a better chance of surviving there in Milwaukee then it would in Green Bay.

Jschmuck

March 13th, 2009, 11:59 PM

Night Rider

March 14th, 2009, 01:23 AM

^^ Well the reason politicians had to sneak that in there is because Milwaukee City Mayor Barrett wanted to spend money on a rail system while Milwaukee County Executive Walker is opposed to rail. I for one am glad it got "snuck" in there then.

Aside from the measure being "snuck" in there, how do you NR feel about Milwaukee getting intracity rail transit for the first time in a uhh, while?

I really don't have enough knowledge of it to make a edu-macated statement. My 1st thoughts are, if they say it's going to cost 100 million, by the time it's done, it will cost $300 million. I have concerns about it being a hugely subsidized project that will continue to bilk taxpayers. Yes, Puant, I know the road are subsidized. But mostly by the users gas tax. Will the bus system fail now? These are questions I have. I think there is potential for it to be a great thing. I hope it succeeds & I can take it for a ride. But without much knowledge, I'm not to optimistic. I just wish it didn't have to be snuck in as a earmark.

Bartles53

March 14th, 2009, 01:42 AM

My recurring issue with the rail is that it seems to be a redundant service. I'm assuming the loop that the Milwaukee line will follow is already supported by bus service. Is there a real benefit to adding the rail service just because it's the cooler way to travel? Personally I'd prefer to dine on kobe beef every night but my bank account tells me that there are more cost effective ways to fill my stomach.

I believe Puant made the case earlier about how the area surrounding light rail lines spruce up and property values increase after the lines start running. I guarantee that's accurate but I wonder how much of that is similar to the "new stadium" effect. Team owners often tout how much revenues increase surrounding a stadium after a new stadium is built. But in reality those revenues are just shifted from other parts of the city/region. In essence taxpayers who foot the bill for the stadium but own a business across town are paying for a cause that is hurting their business. Could a rail line do the same thing--increase property values and commerce from other parts of the city without increasing the revenues for the city as a whole?

Again, I'm torn on this issue. I wish the trolley lines were never pulled from Green Bay. And I think the romanticism from trolleys can very much add to the charm of a city. Perhaps it can lure in tourists and even young professionals who would like to make such a charming city their home. But there is definitely room for debate when there is already a system in place to get the populace from A to B on a regular schedule.

Nativist

March 14th, 2009, 02:35 AM

Feels odd defending earmarks, because they've often been abused. For better or for worse, earmarks are how certain things get done in this country. The system is broken, and there should be a better way; or at the very least there should be a line item veto. But, money for moving the Reiss coal piles is egregious pork to a citizen of Louisville, Kentucky; but something very necessary for us. There simply isn't time for legislators to discuss each of thousands of such projects. I'm sure that there's a better way for all of this to be handled, but it's simply hypocritical of certain legislators to be against earmarks 100% while still slipping them in there, as is often the case. I believe there are only a handful who put in no earmarks (Feingold being one of them).

But here's the other edge, by having a principled senator, we are arguably getting less federal money back to this state than we otherwise would have. It was Kohl who secured the $2,000,000 for getting the planning for the Reiss coal removal underway.

MarqKev

March 14th, 2009, 04:08 AM

Just to clarify, and clean up some misconceptions, the latest act by congress on the $91.5 million that Milwaukee was previously allotted can't be considered an earmark/pork. Senator Kohl and his counterpart in the House changed the requirements for using the money, but didn't give Milwaukee any additional money. Whether or not the original money (designated for Milwaukee transit back in the '90s) can be called pork is open for discussion. I don't know how it was obtained, but I would assume that it was an earmark at that time.

Also, cost overruns are always a possibility, but the budget seems to be fairly set for the street car loop at $100 million. It is only 2.5 miles, and a streetcar instead of light rail, so hopefully the costs will be kept down. We'll see how the city plans to raise the additional $45 million or so past the $53 million just placed under their control by Congress.

Sorry for the slight rant, but I had to come to the defense of my second city.

Puant

March 14th, 2009, 05:39 AM

^^Are you sure the streetcar loop is only 2.5 miles? I thought it was more like 8 miles. Even at 8 miles, $53-$55 million seems a bit pricey for a streetcar system.

Navarino Rezdnt

March 14th, 2009, 09:58 AM

Night Rider

March 14th, 2009, 10:55 AM

Save the planet and ride a trolley.

It's getting a little carried away, the save the planet thing. Tree huggers are suggesting we use re-useable toilet paper, putting carbon taxes on businesses all in the name of saving the planet. I'm all for cleaning up the environment, but if you want a trolley, just say you want it. Or at a minimum, say "Save the planet, ride a bike or walk". Just my 2 cents Navarino, I see your concerns though.

GBSurveyor

March 14th, 2009, 03:22 PM

I found this intersting, as we have all heard this before- Link (http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/106732/Suburbia-R-I-P)

by Michael Cannell
Thursday, March 12, 2009
provided by
fastcompany.com (http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/106732/://www.fastcompany.com;_ylt=AkVL16XVFcXbjiTOojO0PCo40tIF)

The downturn has accomplished what a generation of designers and planners could not: it has turned back the tide of suburban sprawl. In the wake of the foreclosure crisis many new subdivisions are left half built and more established suburbs face abandonment. Cul-de-sac neighborhoods once filled with the sound of backyard barbecues and playing children are falling silent. Communities like Elk Grove, Calif., and Windy Ridge, N.C., are slowly turning into ghost towns with overgrown lawns, vacant strip malls and squatters camping in empty homes. In Cleveland alone, one of every 13 houses is now vacant, according to an article published Sunday in The New York Times magazine.

The demand for suburban homes may never recover, given the long-term prospects of energy costs for commuting and heating, and the prohibitive inefficiencies of low-density construction. The whole suburban idea was founded on disposable spending and the promise of cheap gas. Without them, it may wither. A study by the Metropolitan Institute at Virginia Tech predicts that by 2025 there will be as many as 22 million unwanted large-lot homes in suburban areas.

The suburb has been a costly experiment. Thirty-five percent of the nation's wealth has been invested in building a drivable suburban landscape, according to Christopher Leinberger, an urban planning professor at the University of Michigan and visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution. James Howard Kunstler, author of "The Geography of Nowhere," has been saying for years that we can no longer afford suburbs. "If Americans think they've been grifted by Goldman Sachs and Bernie Madoff, wait until they find out what a swindle the so-called 'American Dream' of suburban life turns out to be," he wrote on his blog this week.

So what's to become of all those leafy subdivisions with their Palladian detailing and tasteful signage? Already low or middle-income families priced out of cities and better neighborhoods are moving into McMansions divided for multi-family use. Alison Arieff, who blogs for The New York Times, visited one such tract mansion that was split into four units, or "quartets," each with its own entrance, which is not unlike what happened to many stately homes in the 1930s. The difference, of course, is that the 1930s homes held up because they were made with solid materials, and today's spec homes are all hollow doors, plastic columns and faux stone facades.

There is also speculation that subdivision homes could be dismantled and sold for scrap now that a mini-industry for repurposed lumber and other materials has evolved over the last few years. Around the periphery of these discussions is the specter of the suburb as a ghost town patrolled by squatters and looters, as if Mad Max had come to the cul-de-sac.

If the suburb is a big loser in mortgage crisis episode, then who is the winner? Not surprisingly, the New Urbanists, a group of planners, developers and architects devoted to building walkable towns based on traditional designs, have interpreted the downturn as vindication of their plans for mixed-use communities where people can stroll from their homes to schools and restaurants.

Richard Florida, a Toronto business professor and author of "Who's Your City?: How the Creative Economy Is Making Where to Live the Most Important Decision of Your Life," argues that dense and diverse cities with "accelerated rates of urban metabolism" are the communities most likely to innovate their way through economic crisis. In an article published in this month's issue of The Atlantic, he posits that New York is at a relative advantage, despite losing a chunk of its financial engine, because the jostling proximity of architects, fashion designers, software writers and other creative types will reenergize its economy.

Copyrighted, Mansueto Ventures LLC. All rights reserved.

mgk920

March 14th, 2009, 05:47 PM

I just thought I'd chime in with my 2¢. While all of you talk about the cost of one option over the other, I think about the environmental impact of electric rail vs. petroleum-fueled bus lines. Electric streetcars produce zero emissions of greenhouse gases and smog producing particulates. I realize that at this time most electricity is produced at coal-fired generation plants but I'm sure that in the future that will change to renewable resource wind turbines. The government is already subsidizing massive wind farms in the great plains states. I just think that now is the time to start building mass-transit infrastructure that will tap into those efforts.

All this will of course cost more being that petroleum-based energy technology is cost effective because it has been around for more than a century. Save the planet and ride a trolley.
From the 1940s until the early 1960s, Milwaukee also had an über-extensive network of electric 'trackless' trolley buses. They had much of the operational flexibility of diesel buses while drawing their tractive energy from two overhead wires. Such systems are still in use in five USA metro areas (Boston, MA MBTA; Dayton OH; Philadephia, PA SEPTA; San Francisco, CA MUNI and Seattle, WA). That system was scrapped in the early 1960s when the vehicles came due for replacement and diesel fuel (at that time) was near 'giveaway' cheap.

Yes, the vehicles are clean and nearly silent in their direct operation, very simple in their mechanical construction and maintenance and can draw their tractive energy from whatever source is most economical at any given time - NOT subject to the ups and downs in the market of just one commodity.

Mike

Puant

March 14th, 2009, 06:56 PM

I'm all for trolleys as you know. I just expect the cost to be somewhere around $3-5 million per mile, maybe a bit more if there is more frequency (more cars) or additional services. The Milwaukee loop has GOT to be more than 2.5 miles at that cost, I'm thinking it's more like 8 miles at that cost. I'm all for it but I wouldn't want to see the price be so outrageous that it kills hope for systems in other cities. Remember Kenosha recently built their 2-mile loop for just $4 million.

I'm stuck on the idea for a whole bunch of reasons. I've blogged (http://packerland.blogspot.com/search/label/transportation)about this before, but again, some thoughts on why a trolley makes sense for Green Bay:

-we need some sort of quiet, clean, attractive, efficient downtown circulator transit system that could reduce the need for large ugly parking lots & ramps that destroy the urban character of the downtown;

-It could allow people to park just once, either on the downtown's periphery or in one of the ramps, and then easily move about the downtown;

-A loop means NOT going out-of-the-way to the transit center and to potentially transfer, as the current bus system does;

-Given the choice, most people choose to ride on trollies over busses (even busses that are dressed up as trollies). Even after the "novelty" wears off, trollies remain attractive and popular; Maybe it's the quiet and cleaner operation (quiet electric trolleys instead of loud smelly diesel busses). Maybe its the fundamental design, whatever it is people generally like trollies better than busses.

-streetcar tracks are relatively inexpensive to put in place,
streetcar tracks may be seen as being more 'permanent' infrastructure. This could make business more prone to locate along the route in existing buildings and hopefully even infill some of the parking lots;

-people would dig how these things hearken back to the "glory years" of downtown Green Bay. The state & national media would undoubtedly showcase the trolleys, and downtown would once again be in the limelight instead of just Lambeau (a spur line could, by the way, be run off of the circulator loop to the stadium/Oneida Street area. This would bring people into downtown without the need for parking) ;

-the trolley loop would tie into the eventual regional passenger rail depot, likely to be built on the west side of the Fox River (perhaps near Titletown Brewing)

-it is relatively risk-averse. It's conservative spending in that even if it did fail, the equipment can be sold off to another city without much depreciation. And the tracks can be scrapped, as Green Bay's original trolley tracks were during World War 2.

-The wide Fox River splits the downtown, it's both an asset and a barrier. People are atracted to the river (so it's an asset) but the width limits walkability between the downtown--people don't like to walk over the wide, often windy & cold bridges so they drive (thus encouraging the need for more parking on both sides of the river). Here's another trolley advantage! A trolley, on the other hand, looping through the downtown and crossing the river with the Main and Walnut bridges would still allow people to walk about the downtown (reducing parking needs) and it would quickly, comfortabily, reliably and with great frequency be able to move people around the downtown across the river and all around. Again, it's an attractive (and thus viable) way to move people.

In summary, the trolley may be the only way to develop the downtown the way we want it to develop (more stuff close together, within walkable, not so many degrading parking lots & ramps and other 'dead space'). Trolleys address the energy issues others mention above by moving a lot more people more efficiently. They're quiet. Cool. Attractive. I am still convinced they're the way to go. Someone could argue that GB's downtown isn't "compact enough" or 'big enough' to support this, but that's a chicken-or-egg argument, because if we want the downtown to be compact and full of people, we need to build the trolley in order to support that density. It's infastructure to support and new growth and value.

Oh and one more thing, I've heard that Ashwaubenon is considering a trolley for their new pedestrian boulevard between the stadium area and the mall. Not sure if this is fact. I guess I'm following IfYouBuildIt's strategy...but I really did hear this!

MarqKev

March 14th, 2009, 08:42 PM

^^
In response to Puant, yes, I'm sure its only 2.5-3 miles, unfortunately. The mayor's plan can be read here: http://www.city.milwaukee.gov/ImageLibrary/Groups/MayorAuthors/issues/FINAL_Barrett_Comprehensive_Transit_Strategy.pdf

I think, but am not certain, that the high cost has to do with a few factors: 1) Mayor Barrett and other elected officials in Milwaukee have hinted that they plan to turn this into a regional light rail system once the streetcars are accepted and desired by the voters. That leads me to think that this system might be a bit more heavy duty than your average street-car system. 2) There is significantly less space into downtown Milwaukee (than Kenosha), so I believe this will require somewhat major reconfiguration of the roads the rails are built on. I agree, that perhaps the cost is high for street cars, but I guess I'll wait until I see the final plan to judge.

Night Rider

March 15th, 2009, 12:42 AM

Puant, Do you support spending $100,000,000.00 on a 2 mile loop? If so, is there a price where you wouldn't support it? Just curious.

Puant

March 15th, 2009, 01:48 AM

I'd like to see detailed analyses. I don't like to just jump to conclusions without an open minded study and the facts. When it comes to things like ducking when a chair is flying at me, I just react. But when it comes to things like building infrastructure in a city, I would like to gather more facts and here some various perspectives on them before deciding where I draw the line. I think every situation is different, too. I wouldn't propose putting a trolley in every city, just those where it makes sense to. I don't know MIlwaukee's situation exactly. But I have looked at Green Bay's and I think it might make sense here (and could hopefully be done here in GB at less cost). I'm promoting the idea so we can brainstorm it, debate it, etc in case it ever gets to the point where someone actually proposes it. If someone can convince me that a trolley is bad for Green Bay, or that it's worth it up to a certain cost, I'll go along with that...after having had this awesome discussion on this forum I think I'd be able to make a more informed decision.

Danillo

March 16th, 2009, 04:22 PM

A couple of thoughts:

1) Night Rider, where is this $100 million figure coming from? I haven't seen anything that relates that figure to what a downtown Milwaukee streetcar loop would cost. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just curious where the figure comes from.

2) Puant, I think the Kenosha example is, in terms of cost, an anomaly. What they've done is certainly something to aspire to, but it seems that systems like the S.L.U.T. (gotta love that acronym, even if it isn't official) in Seattle come to a per-mile cost that would make Milwaukee's system in the $50 million range. One thing you have to keep in mind is that the Kenosha loop only runs one way, which can work for them but wouldn't work in Milwaukee at all. The Kenosha system is also not carrying anywhere near the passenger volume that the loop in Milwaukee would be expected to handle.

Night Rider

March 16th, 2009, 07:34 PM

A couple of thoughts:

1) Night Rider, where is this $100 million figure coming from? I haven't seen anything that relates that figure to what a downtown Milwaukee streetcar loop would cost. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just curious where the figure comes from.

Ah yes ... good catch. I had made a post & just was using the 100 million as a example, saying if they say it cost 100 million, it will actually cost 300 million. I had no idea what the cost was when I was typing that. I just figured subsequent posters found a figure that was close to that amount. If you read the article from Milwaukee I think it actually mentions a figure around 54 million it is receiving from the Feds. I doubt the Feds are covering the project at 100%. Bottom line, I have no clue what the project is estimated to cost.

MarqKev

March 16th, 2009, 08:02 PM

^^I believe I might have been in error by confirming/continuing the $100 million figure. That number was not picked out of thin air, but was the amount that Mayor Barrett requested for the streetcar system as park of Milwaukee's stimulus request. No final budget has been released, as far as I know.

Green Bay 4 Life

March 16th, 2009, 09:36 PM

Not to be a Debbie Downer but maybe the Milwaukee discussion should take place in the Milwaukee Development Thread rather than the Green Bay thread. They are talking about it there... Just a thought.

Big day today, so I've heard. Make or break for Vetter to secure financing. This will have a significant impact on what happens on Wednesday in closed session. If today is not successful - all projects are dead from Vetter I assume...

Night Rider

March 16th, 2009, 10:59 PM

Not to be a Debbie Downer but maybe the Milwaukee discussion should take place in the Milwaukee Development Thread rather than the Green Bay thread. They are talking about it there... Just a thought.

If we start getting some developement around here, maybe we wouldn't have to touch on topics that relate more to other cities. I think the project in Milwaukee kind of relates to what Puant has been working on.

Hopefully Vetter can work some magic & not lay another egg.

Puant

March 17th, 2009, 01:34 AM

Yo. It's been a while since we got together. I'll probably be at the Fox Harbor Pub on Friday evening to watch some tournament basketball. Since I rarely get out, I thought I'd see if any of you are interested in meeting up down there on Friday evening/night as well. . I'd love to see you there. In case you don't know me, I'm the cave-man guy, about 6'2" 210. Dragging knuckles. Slack jaw. All of that.

Bartles53

March 17th, 2009, 02:16 AM

I'm buying what you're selling, Puant. As fiscally conservative as I tend to be, if Green Bay ever got a trolley system I would be ecstatic. Perhaps it would be an easier sell if the benefits off adding the line could be quantified. For example, how much more does the city of San Francisco make in tourism dollars solely because of their iconic trolley system? Or how many more transplants choose to make San Diego their home because of the lure of their light rail system above all other factors? If somehow the economic benefit to the city as a whole can come anywhere near the costs, maybe the other benefits of a light rail system can make it a no-brainer.

One thing the city should not do (in my humble opinion) is add the electric buses that MGK920 mentioned. Nothing scars a city like never ending overhead electrical wires. I went to school in Dayton and lived there for a handful of years afterward so I got to experience it first hand. Don't get me wrong, the wires were the least of that city's problems but they definitely made the place uglier. And if you like listening to AM radio be prepared to live with aggravation was you drive on a street covered in endless electrical wires. In theory those buses probably made sense but in practice the benefits didn't come close to outweighing the drawbacks. I'd hate to see downtown Green Bay be littered in the same way. One other thing that city did that aggravated me was to let their stop lights swing from overhead wires instead of being secured to poles like in every other city. That place had some sort of love affair with electrical wires.

Jschmuck

March 17th, 2009, 02:23 AM

I say we enter into a competition with Kenosha about the trolley idea...we aren't going to let a city SMALLER than us win are we?!

Nativist

March 17th, 2009, 06:04 AM

Oooh, great point. Kenosha's argument would be their proximity to Milwaukee. We need to argue that by connecting Green Bay and Milwaukee and new era of prosperity will unfold across Wisconsin. Go team!

MattGiguere

March 17th, 2009, 06:46 AM

Although there hasn't yet been a date released yet, they say sometime in June. Here's to making it official:):):), from the Kavarna newsletter:

Kavarna eNewsletter, Nearly Spring Edition

Historical character? Check!

We have been waiting to make a certain announcement for a very long time. Today we can announce, officially, that we will be moving Kavarna Coffeehouse to 143 N. Broadway this June. After nearly two years of being preoccupied with our next step, we have finally made it. The lease is signed, the I's are dotted, the floorplans have been drawn up in CAD, and we are extremely excited.

143 N. Broadway is one of three Egyptian Revival buildings built in Wisconsin during the apex of art deco eclecticism. What we've been told is that in 1930, the auto part company AC Delco had a competition among its dealerships and the facade was the prize. We haven't been able to verify the story yet, if anyone out there knows anything about this, we'd love to hear from you. If it's true, the winner of the contest was located on Broadway. Seventy eight years later, we are the beneficiaries of someone's auto part sales skills.

The new building will allow us to increase the scope of what we do. With roughly three times as much space, we will be able to seat more people, accommodate large groups, begin catering, function as a performing arts center, open a delicatessen, increase retail, and a dozen other things. We come up with new ideas for the space almost every day. But best of all, we will be remaining with our friends in the Broadway District, where (as someone pointed out) we belong.

Our current building has served us very well for almost ten years. But as we approached the end of our lease, we realized that our dream had outgrown the 1600 square feet at 112 S. Broadway. As much as we continue to appreciate the character of the space, at this point we are far more conscious of its limitations. It's time for 1930's nightclub nights, chamber music, competitive square dancing, fringe theater, and indoor croquet tournaments. So, we wish 112 S. Broadway well and we hope that it has many happy, future occupants!

Navarino Rezdnt

March 17th, 2009, 07:44 AM

It's time for 1930's nightclub nights, chamber music, competitive square dancing, fringe theater, and indoor croquet tournaments.

Thanks for the update Matt.

It all sounds so fantastic! Truly a unique experience when you're out on the town for a night. Finally a place that just doesn't offer another Thursday night drink special to bring in customers. I'm looking forward to good times.

Kudos to Kavarna.

Puant

March 18th, 2009, 01:43 AM

I'm buying what you're selling, Puant. As fiscally conservative as I tend to be, if Green Bay ever got a trolley system I would be ecstatic. Perhaps it would be an easier sell if the benefits off adding the line could be quantified.... If somehow the economic benefit to the city as a whole can come anywhere near the costs, maybe the other benefits of a light rail system can make it a no-brainer.

One thing the city should not do (in my humble opinion) is add the electric buses that MGK920 mentioned. Nothing scars a city like never ending overhead electrical wires. .

Thanks. I would like to be a trolley salesman. Reminds me of a Simpsons episode, only I think that involved a Monorail and it didn't go over so well. In another interesting twist, the voice of the Simpson's monorail episode was Phil Hartman who also played the "Caveman Lawyer" on SNL.
Geez, the connections. I just hope my wife doesn't wig out and kill me, RIP Phil Hartman.......

Anyway, in the final analysis, when ALL cost factors have been added in, the trolley is the least expensive option, if done right. And also the most attrative....so long as there aren't overhead electric wires, right on there too. The biggest downside that I see is the frustration that car drivers would have sharing the street with trolleys.

The new building will allow us to increase the scope of what we do. With roughly three times as much space, we will be able to seat more people, accommodate large groups, begin catering, function as a performing arts center, open a delicatessen, increase retail, and a dozen other things. We come up with new ideas for the space almost every day. But best of all, we will be remaining with our friends in the Broadway District, where (as someone pointed out) we belong.

Our current building has served us very well for almost ten years. But as we approached the end of our lease, we realized that our dream had outgrown the 1600 square feet at 112 S. Broadway. As much as we continue to appreciate the character of the space, at this point we are far more conscious of its limitations. It's time for 1930's nightclub nights, chamber music, competitive square dancing, fringe theater, and indoor croquet tournaments. So, we wish 112 S. Broadway well and we hope that it has many happy, future occupants!

Here's another example of some really exciting stuff happening downtown. It's not a 500 foot tall gleaming tower, but these "smaller" developments are exciting to me too. Especially given the historic character. I love the building Kavarna is currently located in, but I do understand what they are doing here. This also puts them more in the "epicenter" of the Broadway District, though after the new stadium is built on the 'brownfield' site, that epicenter might shift further south back to the existing Kavarna building.

P.S...will I see any of you at Fox Harbor on S. Washington on Friday evening?

jerkylips999

March 18th, 2009, 01:56 AM

Night Rider

March 18th, 2009, 03:20 AM

Puant

March 18th, 2009, 03:52 AM

Dude. Don't worry about the SUV. I'm sure if there was a streetcar we'd all be using it. For now, though, we'll just have to drive our SUVs. Besides, I thought you drove a black Trans Am or Firebird or some car that talks to you..

I've got to imagine that Fetaz is getting frustrated by the "big hole in the ground" and "bombed-out" building next door. They have a good business...Feta'z. I love their roasted veggie pita sandwich, and the gyros...AWESOME (I wish I could eat one right now!!). They've been at it for what, 5 years now? I have got to believe that if ANYONE is tired of the promises of Vetter, it's got to be the owner of Fetaz.

mgk920

March 18th, 2009, 03:54 AM

Thanks. I would like to be a trolley salesman. Reminds me of a Simpsons episode, only I think that involved a Monorail and it didn't go over so well. In another interesting twist, the voice of the Simpson's monorail episode was Phil Hartman who also played the "Caveman Lawyer" on SNL.
Geez, the connections. I just hope my wife doesn't wig out and kill me, RIP Phil Hartman.......

Anyway, in the final analysis, when ALL cost factors have been added in, the trolley is the least expensive option, if done right. And also the most attrative....so long as there aren't overhead electric wires, right on there too. The biggest downside that I see is the frustration that car drivers would have sharing the street with trolleys.
How would you safely and reliably power the vehicles without overhead wires or without on-board diesel engines (the latter of which would defeat the whole purpose of getting away from conventional buses)?

I think that the 'overhead wires are unsightly' thing is a red herring - a common line given by those, including bus salesmen themselves, who wanted the street cars and TTs eliminated from cities in favor of diesel buses back in the 1950s and 1960s. The overhead wires help eliminate many of the undesirable externalities (noise and exhaust fumes, to name two) from the vehicles while allowing them to draw tractive energy from whatever source is most economical. Wires are so ubiquitous in cities that you start thinking that 'something's missing here' when they are gone and they do regularly disappear into the background. And if nothing else, they also quickly tell the public that yes, there is a route there.

I have sometimes mused that maybe the Appleton area should start using the river to power at least part of its transit system (hydro-electric is deeply rooted in the area's history), and maybe they will if/when fuel someday goes over $2/liter, instead of being at the $2/USgallon level like it is now.

I do like to dream a lot, though.

:lol:

Mike

GBSurveyor

March 18th, 2009, 03:57 AM

If anyone hears about the Vetter financing, please post! Puant, someday I'd love to hang out with ya, but I can't make it Friday. I'm also nervous that I'll get chewed out for driving up in my big SUV :)
RDA-SPECIAL MEETING

AGENDA

REDEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY OF THE CITY OF GREEN BAY

Wednesday, March 18, 2009

City Hall, Room 604

10:30 a.m

1. Review and possible action on the River Center redevelopment.

Maybe we will find out tomorrow????

Night Rider

March 18th, 2009, 04:19 AM

RDA-SPECIAL MEETING

AGENDA

REDEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY OF THE CITY OF GREEN BAY

Wednesday, March 18, 2009

City Hall, Room 604

10:30 a.m

1. Review and possible action on the River Center redevelopment.

Maybe we will find out tomorrow????

Ahh, I thought it was tonight. I'm not sure if FOX 11 will have it on their web site, but they had a big story on the Flats, making them look pretty bad. 1/4 of the residents are having problems with their apartment. Heating bills over $400 p/month. Frost on windows. Heat not getting to the entire apartment. Sounds like they are trying to fix the issue, but they story raises big concerns. The received 7.5 million dollars in tax credits on a 10 million dollar project. I'd be nervous if I was putting money down on the next project.

GBSurveyor

March 18th, 2009, 04:27 AM

Here is a pic from when I was out in Vancouver earlier this winter. They have electric buses and are in the process of construction a light rail line.

the aerial wires are everywhere.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/IMG_0625.jpg

Another intersting project that I learned about is that the resort town of Whistler- just north of Vancouver is constructing a microhydro project that will generate enough electricty to power the resort. I am really surprised that we dont have more hydro in this area considering all of the water.

Jschmuck

March 18th, 2009, 04:36 AM

Frankly the power lines for light rails/trolleys/streetcars don't bother me...The power lines for electric buses in VERY few cities are however not that great looking with all that cris-crossing of wires. But back to the power lines for the tracked vehicles, I think they look neat, organized, and in fact add to the ambiance of the transportation

dmsklutz

March 18th, 2009, 04:51 AM

[/QUOTE]
This whole car-snobbery that people like Jadin have is killing our cities and society.

A guy like Jadin would never lower himself to ride a train so he figures none of us would either.

These snobs get their new SUV every 3 years and don't care what gas costs and they live out in their burbs and drive everywhere and they just don't see the damage this mentality does.[/QUOTE]

While I would agree both are car snobs... they actually both love in near downtown neighborhoods. Astor Park, near St James park where the band plays in the summer.

dmsklutz

March 18th, 2009, 04:54 AM

I stopped at fetaz tonight on the way home & there's a new sign up on the corner - "for sale or lease - retail & condo space - watermark properties"

It wasn't there about 2 weeks ago. does this mean they got financing?

The sign has been up for almost a month. Near the end of Feb it went up. I work across the street and unfortunately have a nice view of the "hole" while I am eating my lunch.

GBSurveyor

March 18th, 2009, 03:20 PM

The sign has been up for almost a month. Near the end of Feb it went up. I work across the street and unfortunately have a nice view of the "hole" while I am eating my lunch.
Well hopefully someday you will have a view of the whole construction site...

Danillo

March 18th, 2009, 03:59 PM

The word I'm hearing is that financing for the Parking, Children's Museum, Hagameister Park (I probably spelled that wrong), and the facade work for all of the Watermark is set. That would be HUGE!

Night Rider

March 18th, 2009, 04:09 PM

jerkylips999

March 18th, 2009, 05:24 PM

Navarino Rezdnt

March 18th, 2009, 05:47 PM

The word I'm hearing is that financing for the Parking, Children's Museum, Hagameister Park (I probably spelled that wrong), and the facade work for all of the Watermark is set. That would be HUGE!

I'm curious about the "facade work". Do you know any more about that specifically? I'm envisioning some kind of whitewash treatment being done just so they can say "Look how we changed it." But I guess it could have more to do with how the opening where Pine St. meets the boardwalk looks.

Green Bay 4 Life

March 18th, 2009, 06:30 PM

I'm curious about the "facade work". Do you know any more about that specifically? I'm envisioning some kind of whitewash treatment being done just so they can say "Look how we changed it." But I guess it could have more to do with how the opening where Pine St. meets the boardwalk looks.

What it means is the facade on the bombed out building would be put up to make it look like the building was completed but the inside finish out would not be done and that way Vetter could sell off and finish out as he sells. So therefore, it will be a large bombed out inside building with a nice looking (Hopefully) exterior.

Navarino Rezdnt

March 18th, 2009, 07:10 PM

Thanks for the clarification GB4Life.

I'd also like to welcome dmsklutz to the forum.

Danillo

March 18th, 2009, 07:23 PM

sr22ger

March 18th, 2009, 08:15 PM

So, the RDA gave the plan approval, pending some financial data that they have requested, and more detailed design information (in terms of the look and materials). This should go to Council on April 8, and be back before RDA to review the above items before then. If all goes well, financing would close at the end of April, followed by a two week setup by the construction company, followed my construction start in May.

Mr Mirkes presented a lunch seminar today at my work. He confirmed the things from the RDA meeting, but used some different language. First, the $12mil financing for phase one of watermark is already secured...contingent on a financing plan for $3.5mil from the city, similar to the agrilink site. Jeff was really excited to announce that and hinted that things will move forward with a May start date and end of year finish. Basically as stated before, restaurant, children's museum, two levels of parking, facade to watermark along the river are included in this.

Other things, Astor place is confirmed dead. I know I saw it was rumored, but I might have missed the official announcement. Mr Mirkes confirmed that it was dead and they are now focusing on lower end condos $100-200k for new development downtown.

Also, Jeff mentioned a new proposal for the Daily planet site noted at 6 stories. He said it was brand new and not even released publically. Didn't mention much details and the rendering was really similar to the previous 8 story proposal.

gbmphillips

March 18th, 2009, 08:43 PM

Dude. Don't worry about the SUV. I'm sure if there was a streetcar we'd all be using it. For now, though, we'll just have to drive our SUVs. Besides, I thought you drove a black Trans Am or Firebird or some car that talks to you...
There is no way the majority of the people in this town would ever give up their cars/suvs/trucks for public transportation. In a small town this size it is a foolish pipedream to think that anything will replace the private vehicle. There is no reason for it, it's not like traffic is bumper to bumper when you go the 10 mins it take to get across town.

Green Bay 4 Life

March 18th, 2009, 09:21 PM

Mr Mirkes presented a lunch seminar today at my work. He confirmed the things from the RDA meeting, but used some different language. First, the $12mil financing for phase one of watermark is already secured...contingent on a financing plan for $3.5mil from the city, similar to the agrilink site. Jeff was really excited to announce that and hinted that things will move forward with a May start date and end of year finish. Basically as stated before, restaurant, children's museum, two levels of parking, facade to watermark along the river are included in this.

Other things, Astor place is confirmed dead. I know I saw it was rumored, but I might have missed the official announcement. Mr Mirkes confirmed that it was dead and they are now focusing on lower end condos $100-200k for new development downtown.

Also, Jeff mentioned a new proposal for the Daily planet site noted at 6 stories. He said it was brand new and not even released publically. Didn't mention much details and the rendering was really similar to the previous 8 story proposal.

So Astor in its current form or the entire thing. I am confused on if they are remaking it into lower end condos maybe shorter or if the whole things is scrapped and they are going abck to the drawing board. Well, that sucks - but I guess expected.

Green Bay Sponge

March 18th, 2009, 09:58 PM

I am really surprised that we dont have more hydro in this area considering all of the water.

The problem with that, is that they need to be placed on waterfalls. The nearest hydroelectric power plant is in Oconto Falls. I assume that it is used to power most of their town's industry. Hydroelectric dams are impossible to place in areas without waterfalls, such as Green Bay, without the risk of a flood.

Jschmuck

March 18th, 2009, 10:05 PM

Does the Fox River have enough of a current to take advantage of tidal power? Am i even thinking of the right idea???

GBSurveyor

March 18th, 2009, 10:29 PM

The problem with that, is that they need to be placed on waterfalls. The nearest hydroelectric power plant is in Oconto Falls. I assume that it is used to power most of their town's industry. Hydroelectric dams are impossible to place in areas without waterfalls, such as Green Bay, without the risk of a flood.

Well that is not entirely correct, the most common form of hydro power in this area may be from dam created head, however there are many kinetic or run of the river and micro-operations that produce less electricty but at a reduced environmental impact. I assume that the cost is the limiting factor.

GBSurveyor

March 18th, 2009, 10:32 PM

There is no way the majority of the people in this town would ever give up their cars/suvs/trucks for public transportation. In a small town this size it is a foolish pipedream to think that anything will replace the private vehicle. There is no reason for it, it's not like traffic is bumper to bumper when you go the 10 mins it take to get across town.

I think that I could argue this with you if the cost became an issue, just look at what $4 gas did to this country. If we priced gas at the same level as Canada or Europe we would have a different outlook on transportaion. Because we always choose the cheapest way to do anything...

MattGiguere

March 18th, 2009, 10:40 PM

Fresh from the Press Gazette:

$12.2M funding OK'd for Younkers site redevelopment; work could start in May
BY RICHARD RYMAN • RRYMAN@GREENBAYPRESSGAZETTE.COM • MARCH 18, 2009

Redevelopment of the former Younkers department store site in downtown Green Bay could begin in May.

The city Redevelopment Authority this morning approved a term sheet with developer John Vetter than would provide about $12.2 million to get the project restarted. It has been on hold for more than a year because of the national credit crisis.

The city of Green Bay would provide a $3.5 million loan, Calumet County Bank would lend $4.5 million and the Wisconsin Housing and Economic Development Authority would provide a New Market Tax Credit Loan equal to 20 percent of the project.

Steps ahead include two key tenants – the Green Bay Children’s Museum and Hagemeister Park restaurant – providing proof of their financing, as well as City Council approval on April 8.

“We have a plan before you today that can work and get us into those buildings,” Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt said. “I do think there will be a strong market for this in a year or two, but I don’t want to wait a year or two.”

The project, called WaterMark, will combine retail, commercial and residential space along the east bank of the Fox River between East Walnut and Main streets.

Vetter said if all contingencies are met, construction could begin in May.

Tim Rinn, director of business development for general contractor Ganther Construction of Oshkosh, said the project will provide about 100 jobs to local construction workers.

“We are going to bid out every trade to local contractors,” he said.

Vetter said if construction begins in May, the museum and restaurant can begin their interior buildouts in six or seven months. It will take nine months of complete the first phase of the project, which includes a parking garage and new exterior on the former Younkers building as well as some interior infrastructure.

“I think it’s quite amazing, given the economic climate, that we put a deal together,” Vetter said. “We are very energized to move forward.”

Morse

March 18th, 2009, 11:51 PM

^^ GB4LIfe, that is correct. One nice thing finishing the facade in this way would do is that they would be able to sell floors one at a time if they had to, instead of having to sell X% of an entire building before any of it could be built.

I was at the RDA today, and it did sound positive. The plan is for the lending to come from three sources, the primary lender being Calumet Bank, then the City of Green Bay, then WHEDA. I'm no financial expert, but the plan sounded quite reasonable to me. Of course, because lending from the city is involved, this won't be without controversy, but I do not think this is an unreasonable step. It is similar to the city's involvement in the Larsen Green project.

Now, there are still hurdles to clear. The Children's Museum, Hagemeister Park, and Stonehouse (who are buying parking for the Fox Lofts) need to get their financing in order, which they haven't been able to do until now because the financing plan wasn't set for the development as a whole. In the case of the Museum they have over $2 million raised already.

So, the RDA gave the plan approval, pending some financial data that they have requested, and more detailed design information (in terms of the look and materials). This should go to Council on April 8, and be back before RDA to review the above items before then. If all goes well, financing would close at the end of April, followed by a two week setup by the construction company, followed my construction start in May.

My view: there's still a lot to be put together, but overall I think what was presented was within reason and positive.

Danillo-Thanks for the info! If you don't mind, a couple of questions:

1.) Has any (I am not sure if this was mentioned) of the renders changed? Do you think that as a whole this project will look nice (included with The Flats)?

2.) What are your thoughts on the City Council involvement. I know that you mentioned that this won't be without some controversy, but is your impression that this will be supported by the majority or are we going to have to hear Guy Zima and Vander Leest go off again?

Just a thought with Astor. I was with Madison over the weekend and spent almost the entire time downtown. The majority of there condo's are in the 8-12 story range and the area is dense as heck and very attractive. If we have to sacrifice some height and even stay in the 6-10 story range to make some of these developments 'lower end' and affordable that won't be bad as long as it is done right. With that said, I would like to see a couple of talls bookend Site 1 & 4 (12 stories possibly) as those are the main (IMO) parcels that call for larger buildings, but build some density throughout the rest of downtown.

Night Rider

March 18th, 2009, 11:56 PM

2.) What are your thoughts on the City Council involvement. I know that you mentioned that this won't be without some controversy, but is your impression that this will be supported by the majority or are we going to have to hear Guy Zima and Vander Leest go off again?

Vander Beast's favorite bar is right next to the developement. He might support it because it will help his own place out. It's a long shot I know.

Morse

March 19th, 2009, 12:12 AM

Vander Beast's favorite bar is right next to the developement. He might support it because it will help his own place out. It's a long shot I know.

Not to bring up an old issue, but this irritated the heck out of me after reading about it. Of course this is another roundabout issue and involves one proposed for the Lombardi Avenue, 41 ramp terminal area (I think that is correct). Apparently Dr. Evil Leest (That will be ONE MILLION DOLLARS and a HAM SANDWICH, mwahahaha) was raising a stink with this and wanted to write the DOT for more information and to question its location and reasoning. The other members of the Improvement commitee basically told him to knock it off and said that the city shoudn't question or get involved with the DOT as they would have final say anyway. Wanker!

dmsklutz

March 19th, 2009, 02:40 AM

Thanks for the clarification GB4Life.

I'd also like to welcome dmsklutz to the forum.

Thanks for the welcome... I hope to read all your insights and provide my own for thoughtful discussion.

I also like to stir the pot occasionally. Sometimes my ideas or reasoning are a bit fridge or strange. Outside the cube. :nuts:

I definitely would not be welcome in Herr Schmidt's administration... though I do sit on a subcommittee that shall remain nameless for now.. hehehe

I want the downtown (especially On Broadway) and the west side to succeed as I am a Westside guy... lived the majority of my years (exc college and a 1 year lease) on the westside.

klutz

dmsklutz

March 19th, 2009, 02:59 AM

From the Press Gazette today. We finally have our wish list.

-- Green Bay: $67.8 million total, including $25 million to move coal piles from out of the downtown area, $10 million for convention space, $6 million for reconstruction the northern portion of Military Avenue; $3.5 million for phase two of the City Deck project, $3.5 million for the building of the Children’s Museum and $2.5 million for demolishing the downtown mall and developing infrastructure.

http://greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090310/GPG0101/90310231/1978

Link for the whole article.

Some thoughts on these items that I must get off my chest to someone... here seems like a good place to find out if I'm nuts or on the right track... (speaking of tracks have thoughts on that also)

1 - coal piles - this would be huge boon to Broadway development and I'm sure the neighbors on both sides of the river will love not having to powerwash their homes 2-3 times a month. Open windows? wow what a concept in summer :)

2 - convention space - BAD idea - they might need some updates (like the new carpeting they just got) - but as a group outgrows them they need to find other groups who have outgrown other smaller convention space and who can use the site for 5-10 years before moving on. They could even work with the other hotels in town (or even in Oshkosh/Appleton/Wausau/etc) that have ballroom/meeting space (like the recently closed HoJo) where groups have outgrown their space - esp Holiday Inn City Center which could still share in the rooms booked by the convention. All that will happen is they keep growing and growing trying to be bigger than the next guy. If they really need to expand - what about the old JCPenny's ?

3 - City Deck? - that will be built entirely without tax dollars... per our Mayor... enough said

4 - the rest I have no major issues with as long as they are built/done thoughtfully and well thought out not rushed to get done ASAP to get the monies.

Anyway... more than my 0.03 worth... enough for tonight

Klutz

Navarino Rezdnt

March 19th, 2009, 05:44 AM

Fox 11 News reports, see the Video (http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/local_wluk_greenbay_new_pad_possible_for_bullfrogs_031820092131_rev1)
It mentions and shows Puant's blog site.
New pad possible for Bullfrogs

Updated: Wednesday, 18 Mar 2009, 9:38 PM CDT
Published : Wednesday, 18 Mar 2009, 9:37 PM CDT

* Reporter: Robert Hornacek

GREEN BAY - Green Bay may be a football town, but during the last two summers, baseball has made it's mark.

"We're growing really rapidly which is very exciting," said Bullfrogs owner Jeff Royle. The Bullfrogs are a collegiate summer team in the Northwoods League.

The Bullfrogs are in the third year of a five year lease at Joannes Stadium, where the capacity is about 2,000. Last year, 2,400 fans turned out for a game in August. The team averaged 1,000 fans per game in its first year, but last year, attendance was up 25%. The team set six attendance records. If the growth continues, Royle said the team could outgrow its current home.

"Since day one we've always been looking behind the scenes to the other opportunities that exist here in Green Bay," Royle said. Those opportunities could include a new stadium.

"I believe baseball could work in the downtown area," mayor Jim Schmitt said. He said the city is working with the Bullfrogs to find a six or seven acre site for a new stadium. Several options are being looked at.

One is the former brownfield site, along Mason Street. Another is former mall downtown. The Larsen Green project on Broadway is being looked at. Bay Beach is a possibility. There's even a chance the team could move to Ashwaubenon, near the Tundra Lodge.

"We're going to make an effort to work with them to have them stay within the city Green Bay," Schmitt said.

The idea has inspired some fans. One blogger even put together a rendering of what he envisioned for a ball park near the Fox River.

Schmitt said if a new stadium is built it won't just be used for baseball. "I think that this is for more entertainment. I think you could see some restaurants and other economic development take place around this stadium," Schmitt said.

"Baseball is America's past time and our goal is to take it to another level here in Green Bay," Royle said. Ultimately, he said fans will help determine the team's future. Because if they continue to come, the team just might build it.

Schmitt said the next step is to narrow down the list of sites and put together a financing package. He hopes to have terms agreed to within one year so the stadium could be completed within two years.

Night Rider

March 19th, 2009, 03:01 PM

At least we're moving forward finally.

GBSurveyor

March 19th, 2009, 05:19 PM

Some thoughts on these items that I must get off my chest to someone... here seems like a good place to find out if I'm nuts or on the right track... (speaking of tracks have thoughts on that also)

1 - coal piles - this would be huge boon to Broadway development and I'm sure the neighbors on both sides of the river will love not having to powerwash their homes 2-3 times a month. Open windows? wow what a concept in summer :)

2 - convention space - BAD idea - they might need some updates (like the new carpeting they just got) - but as a group outgrows them they need to find other groups who have outgrown other smaller convention space and who can use the site for 5-10 years before moving on. They could even work with the other hotels in town (or even in Oshkosh/Appleton/Wausau/etc) that have ballroom/meeting space (like the recently closed HoJo) where groups have outgrown their space - esp Holiday Inn City Center which could still share in the rooms booked by the convention. All that will happen is they keep growing and growing trying to be bigger than the next guy. If they really need to expand - what about the old JCPenny's ?

3 - City Deck? - that will be built entirely without tax dollars... per our Mayor... enough said

4 - the rest I have no major issues with as long as they are built/done thoughtfully and well thought out not rushed to get done ASAP to get the monies.

Anyway... more than my 0.03 worth... enough for tonight

Klutz
To start out- Welcome Klutz- I dont think your nuts... You probably drifted here because you think that things should be better in Green Bay, we all have our opinions on what needs to change or where we want the city to be.

I have not checked but the land that the coal piles occupy must be quite larger than the now famous "brown field site". There is so much potential there that it seems to me that it is so far removed to consider anything that far south when we cant even get the core downtown built up. But I really think that we could do some kick ass near downtown infill (think row houses or even single family) and build up the density to encourage business to return.

As far as the convention center, I would be curious to find out what space is in greatest demand. Why couldn't we just add another floor and basically double the space without increasing the foot print. The exhibition space in my opinion is oversized at least vertically for the average convention. I think expanding across the street wouldn't be in the best interest of the KI.

I really like the idea of the City Deck but I question why the mayor ever mentioned the "tax dollar" thing. Maybe he should of clarified that no additional property tax dollars were going towards the construction, which makes me wonder if some people think that since no local property taxes are involved that any money received from the government is not tax dollars...

Puant is the friday gig still on? Anyone going to make it?

Danillo

March 19th, 2009, 11:38 PM

Danillo-Thanks for the info! If you don't mind, a couple of questions:

1.) Has any (I am not sure if this was mentioned) of the renders changed? Do you think that as a whole this project will look nice (included with The Flats)?

I gather that the design has changed. I have seen nothing. I sure hope it looks good, I won't support it if it doesn't (for all the good my personal support does... which is near zero). I mean, with the way the building is now, and with what's next door, I can't imagine anything that doesn't have the refurbished warehouse look with the cream brick as a major material. It wouldn't respect the building to do otherwise, and it would make the Fox Lofts really totally crappy if they didn't appear at least somewhat related to the Watermark. Now, that doesn't mean they have to look the same, or that the Watermark needs to have the bronzed metal that earlier rendering have shown and that the Lofts have, but (unless something really great I'm not thinking of is in store) I'd say it almost has to be the warehouse/cream brick look (which means it probably will be something totally other).

As for the Washington St. side, I think that could be completely redesigned. I don't think what we've seen there in previous renderings is a disaster, but it could be better too. I think the key there is to maximize the interaction between the street level and the inside. If the space appears active, then the fact that it's a ramp above won't lessen the space. If the facade doesn't draw your eye inside, it will look like a big long parking ramp.

But for now, I can do no more than speculate.

2.) What are your thoughts on the City Council involvement. I know that you mentioned that this won't be without some controversy, but is your impression that this will be supported by the majority or are we going to have to hear Guy Zima and Vander Leest go off again?

First off, VanderLeest has been a fairly consistent supporter of the downtown. The whole roundabouts thing was weird, the lawsuit thing is weird, but he's supported the CityDeck and a lot of what's happening downtown. I don't know if he'll support this but it isn't a slam dunk that he'll oppose it in the same vein as Zima.

Now to your question, the answer is both. The council will, I believe, support it (I can't see where 7 votes to oppose it are going to come from), AND Zima (and maybe someone like Nicholson) will raise all holy hell about it. This is what happens every time. Over the past 5 or more years (since the Jefferson St. pedestrian bump-out debacle, really), the Council has ALWAYS supported the downtown development, and if I were betting I'd bet they would here as well.

The real will of the city is pro-downtown (and we've had enough elections where the pro-downtown people keep getting elected, or where anti downtown aldermen like Kriescher lose, to prove it), it's just that Zima is so loud that the appearance is that the will of the city is anti-downtown. And really, if it weren't for the personal insults and attacks from him, I'd argue that Zima's presence is healthy because he represents the view of many people and having the opposing viewpoint is healthy. The other aldermen should just be doing better making it clear that the will of the city is pro-downtown, and Zima should tone it down so that people interested in doing business in Green Bay don't have to be talked to as thought their desire to do business here is some sort of crime.

Danillo

March 19th, 2009, 11:39 PM

Oh, and I'll probably try to make it down tomorrow evening. Now I'm off to Gallery Night!

Puant

March 20th, 2009, 01:29 AM

Just a thought with Astor. I was with Madison over the weekend and spent almost the entire time downtown. The majority of there condo's are in the 8-12 story range and the area is dense as heck and very attractive. .

I TOTALLY agree! Right on. Although I'd hope for more than just condos.

Thanks for the welcome... I hope to read all your insights and provide my own for thoughtful discussion.

I also like to stir the pot occasionally. Sometimes my ideas or reasoning are a bit fridge or strange. Outside the cube. :nuts:
klutz

I too am glad to have you on board, klutz. It's good to "brainstorm" a bit, without immediate judgement on whether ideas are good/bad. I think that's what this forum is all about: Throwing stuff out there, whether "crazy" or not, and then just chewing on them in a public forum where hey, maybe someone will pick up on the ideas and if not too-crazy, run with them.

Fox 11 News reports, see the Video (http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/local_wluk_greenbay_new_pad_possible_for_bullfrogs_031820092131_rev1)
It mentions and shows Puant's blog site.

This was nice to see. Here's an idea that we have discussed a lot here, that someone will (hopefully!) run with!! I am adamant that the baseball stadium will NOT fit on the mall site, though. It won't work. Larsen Green...perhaps. The brownfield site is the best, with the most activity and most potential. The site in Ashwaubenon, to me, would be kind of blah. The Bay Beach area might be pretty cool though, but it's just not tied into the city life up there quite as much. I still think I'd rank siting in the following order, best to worst: 1) Brownfield Site 2) Leave it where it is 3) Bay Beach area 4) Larsen Green 5) Ashwaubenon and a distant 6) because it won't fit at all..the mall site.

Mr Mirkes presented a lunch seminar today at my work....

Also, Jeff mentioned a new proposal for the Daily planet site noted at 6 stories. He said it was brand new and not even released publically. Didn't mention much details and the rendering was really similar to the previous 8 story proposal.

Something to hope for! Thanks for the update, sr22ger.

The problem with that, is that they need to be placed on waterfalls. The nearest hydroelectric power plant is in Oconto Falls. I assume that it is used to power most of their town's industry. Hydroelectric dams are impossible to place in areas without waterfalls, such as Green Bay, without the risk of a flood.

The larger the water "fall" the better, but even the lower Fox River has and still does produce electricity along many places. Some of the dams on the Fox River are still power generators. Doesn't the old hotel in DePere still generate electricity with a hydro power generator underneatht the building?

To start out- Welcome Klutz- I dont think your nuts... You probably drifted here because you think that things should be better in Green Bay, we all have our opinions on what needs to change or where we want the city to be.?

Exactly why I drifted in here and have been addicted ever since!

I have not checked but the land that the coal piles occupy must be quite larger than the now famous "brown field site". There is so much potential there that it seems to me that it is so far removed to consider anything that far south when we cant even get the core downtown built up. But I really think that we could do some kick ass near downtown infill (think row houses or even single family) and build up the density to encourage business to return.

The current coal pile site is quite a bit larger than the "brownfield" site on the other side of Mason. The current coal piles south of Mason St occupy about 36 acres, whereas north of Mason the former "brownfield" site is about 9-10 acres, not including the boat slip.

As far as the convention center, I would be curious to find out what space is in greatest demand. Why couldn't we just add another floor and basically double the space without increasing the foot print. The exhibition space in my opinion is oversized at least vertically for the average convention. I think expanding across the street wouldn't be in the best interest of the KI.

TOtally right on, I think adding another level above would make the most sense. It might be more expensive but in the end would make a more effective space.

Puant is the friday gig still on? Anyone going to make it?
Yep, I'll be out with some work mates to BS and watch basketball...Come join us. The plan as I understand it is still to meet up at the Fox Harbor Pub after work (~4:30ish). The Badgers tip off at 8:55 against Florida State....I don't know if everyone will want to stay at Fox Harbor PUb or move to another place (Titletown or Coaches Corner) before the Badgers tipoff? But it's safe to say we'll have a good group at Fox Harbor between 4:30 - 7:00 or so. It would be great to BS with some of you as well, and even if there's not enough "downtown" stuff to talk about, there's always basketball!

Morse

March 20th, 2009, 02:53 AM

I would love to meet up with you guys if I weren't three and a half hours away. Doh! I will be up in Green Bay for a couple of weekends in April so maybe there will be another get together sometime then.

Morse

March 20th, 2009, 04:43 AM

I gather that the design has changed. I have seen nothing. I sure hope it looks good, I won't support it if it doesn't (for all the good my personal support does... which is near zero). I mean, with the way the building is now, and with what's next door, I can't imagine anything that doesn't have the refurbished warehouse look with the cream brick as a major material. It wouldn't respect the building to do otherwise, and it would make the Fox Lofts really totally crappy if they didn't appear at least somewhat related to the Watermark. Now, that doesn't mean they have to look the same, or that the Watermark needs to have the bronzed metal that earlier rendering have shown and that the Lofts have, but (unless something really great I'm not thinking of is in store) I'd say it almost has to be the warehouse/cream brick look (which means it probably will be something totally other).

As for the Washington St. side, I think that could be completely redesigned. I don't think what we've seen there in previous renderings is a disaster, but it could be better too. I think the key there is to maximize the interaction between the street level and the inside. If the space appears active, then the fact that it's a ramp above won't lessen the space. If the facade doesn't draw your eye inside, it will look like a big long parking ramp.

But for now, I can do no more than speculate.

First off, VanderLeest has been a fairly consistent supporter of the downtown. The whole roundabouts thing was weird, the lawsuit thing is weird, but he's supported the CityDeck and a lot of what's happening downtown. I don't know if he'll support this but it isn't a slam dunk that he'll oppose it in the same vein as Zima.

Now to your question, the answer is both. The council will, I believe, support it (I can't see where 7 votes to oppose it are going to come from), AND Zima (and maybe someone like Nicholson) will raise all holy hell about it. This is what happens every time. Over the past 5 or more years (since the Jefferson St. pedestrian bump-out debacle, really), the Council has ALWAYS supported the downtown development, and if I were betting I'd bet they would here as well.

The real will of the city is pro-downtown (and we've had enough elections where the pro-downtown people keep getting elected, or where anti downtown aldermen like Kriescher lose, to prove it), it's just that Zima is so loud that the appearance is that the will of the city is anti-downtown. And really, if it weren't for the personal insults and attacks from him, I'd argue that Zima's presence is healthy because he represents the view of many people and having the opposing viewpoint is healthy. The other aldermen should just be doing better making it clear that the will of the city is pro-downtown, and Zima should tone it down so that people interested in doing business in Green Bay don't have to be talked to as thought their desire to do business here is some sort of crime.

I agree with you completely that Watermark has to tie into the Flats. This will make sense in a much larger context and I think will enhance the Flats since it is not meant to be a 'stand alone' building. I really like the bronze metal and the added windows and balconies in this development. I really just hope that this does not get cheap and they just leave the openings that are there now, make few adjustments and call it good. If they keep the design of the warehouse portion the same, it kind of has a Third Ward, Milwaukee look to it. Add some sharp 'modern' buildings on Site 1 & 4 and this will be pleasant looking. This is a major redevelopment and needs to be done correctly. I also hope that they keep the light on the water tower as well.

Amen on Zima needing to lay off. I know that I read that when the Gorman Company was interested in doing some work on Broadway a couple of years ago, he was all over them, criticizing the costs (apartments, loft style in the $700 monthly range) and guaranteeing that no one would rent them. This is a top notch developer on top of that. As it turned out, they did not get WHEDA credits and the project did not happen (However, I have heard they are interested in Larsen Green now). Needless to say, no this should not happen and the city needs to encourage and be welcoming to developers and it is unfortunate that they are judged on the one loud mouth who has no discretion. I agree that a point off view like his is healthy from an argument and debate stand point, but he is in the public eye, an elected official and needs to act like it. Someone mentioned the other day about him being in hot water again and that had to do with some racial jokes he made to his African-American waiter at Applebee's. Without being there, one can't say for sure how far that went, but sheesh!

jerkylips999

March 20th, 2009, 02:34 PM

At least we're moving forward finally.

we'll see.. There's still time for some group to threaten to sue because museums discriminate against stupid people, or something. Then you know the mayor will give in, level everything downtown, & spend $5M on a giant bronze statue of guy zima...

HermosaBeachBoy

March 20th, 2009, 10:44 PM

Morse

March 20th, 2009, 11:31 PM

:nuts:Looks like I'm getting out of work a little earlier than I thought..........anyone still going to the Fox Harbor Pub around 5 PM tonight?

I thought I'd drop by for a little while and check you-all shifty characters out!

See you soon:nuts:

Hey Hermosa, have you got any more info with the Watermark? Did the model at the open house have the bronze metal and windows?

Night Rider

March 21st, 2009, 10:54 AM

This was from a milwaukee paper that was talking about the high speed train that is being planned for. Just an small exerpt....

"Future plans call for high-speed rail on three other Wisconsin routes, including:

Madison to St. Paul: The Wisconsin portion of this segment would cost $456 million. Intermediate stops for the six daily round trips would include Portage, Wisconsin Dells, Tomah, La Crosse and the Minnesota cities of Winona and Red Wing.

Milwaukee to Green Bay: This route would cost $421 million. Trains would run seven daily round trips, with intermediate stops on Milwaukee's northwest side and in West Bend, Fond du Lac, Oshkosh and Neenah, in the Appleton area.

Milwaukee to Chicago: Upgrading the Wisconsin portion of the current Hiawatha route to 110-mph service would cost $419 million, serving the existing stations downtown, at Mitchell International Airport and in Sturtevant and Glenview, Ill. Once that's done, service would jump to 17 round trips daily, with seven trains continuing to Green Bay and 10 continuing to Madison, with six of the Madison-bound trains continuing to St. Paul."

For full article....here's the link. http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/41608122.html

Navarino Rezdnt

March 21st, 2009, 11:23 AM

The more I think about the Midwest Regional Rail Initiative, the more I like it. It just opens up more options for a weekend getaway. Hop on a train on Friday morning and be in St Louis or Detroit by supper time and not be all fatigued, but ready to enjoy the local dining and entertainment scene. Of course it would probably result in people doing the same to get here for the same reason.

HermosaBeachBoy

March 21st, 2009, 06:02 PM

Hey Hermosa, have you got any more info with the Watermark? Did the model at the open house have the bronze metal and windows?

The model I saw at the open house was of wood (about 36" long 12" wide)and nothing more than a small miniature of all the proposed and existing buildings along the Fox River from Main to just beyond the Walnut St. bridge.

HermosaBeachBoy

March 21st, 2009, 06:17 PM

I just want to put my vote in for TRAINS 100%.....the more the better! Trains are a big part of my plan...........from my WaterMark Condo ride the elevator down to the CityDeck..... cab....or bus.......to the Green Bay train terminal.........take a train to Milw/Chic and from there on to anywhere in the country I want to go..........stop when I want at whatever city I want......spend a few days and come back home to Green Bay/City Deck/Watermark........no car needed......total relaxation all the way......

..........I was at the Fox Harbor Pub Friday nite and saw lots of big slack jawed knuckle dragging guys around but didn't want to go up and ask any one of them if they were there to meet anyone from the Internet!

Next time I guess we will have to all wear the same color shirt!......was anyone else there afterall?

Night Rider

March 21st, 2009, 08:14 PM

The model I saw at the open house was of wood (about 36" long 12" wide)and nothing more than a small miniature of all the proposed and existing buildings along the Fox River from Main to just beyond the Walnut St. bridge.

Are they at least keeping you updated? Do you think at least one floor of condos will be done right away or will they just do the facade & you will be left waiting. Inquiring minds want to know :)
Thanks.

Puant

March 21st, 2009, 08:34 PM

From the Journal-Sentinel news article posted above about trains...:

....If Chicago wins its bid for the 2016 Olympics, the trains would provide a link between the main Olympic sites and the cycling venues in Madison....

I didn't know that if Chicago gets the Olympics that some of the cycling events would be in Madison. Geez now I'm REALLY crossing my fingers about this Olympics bid. Sorry, offi topic a bit.

So yeah, let's get going with the trains. A lot of this is really risk-averse because even if the passenger rail fails, the tracks are mostly already there, they still get used for freight and the passenger train can get sold off to some other part of the country. So $420 million for the train from Milw to Green Bay. Anyone know what the cost of the USH 41 expansion project will be as a comparison?

I was out at the FOx Harbor Pub last night. I was the slack-jawed guy with one knuckle dragging on the ground and another knuckle wrapped around a beer. Wait, that probably doesn't narrow it down either. I did manage to meet up with a couple people from this forum who I had met before. I also scanned the room from time to time wondering if anyone else from this forum had made it.

I didn't see anyone who looked like Knight Rider... At least not until later in the night, when I saw this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls_uzZV51fM)..

HermosaBeachBoy

March 21st, 2009, 08:46 PM

Are they at least keeping you updated? Do you think at least one floor of condos will be done right away or will they just do the facade & you will be left waiting. Inquiring minds want to know :)
Thanks.

Well..........not much really......my guess is it's all they can handle getting anything rolling at all.....much less actual condo's and retail/office a the WaterMark......no matter to me right now......I'm in for the long haul, WaterMark or it's successor...........I'm not packed yet but am quick to move anytime!

Green Bay Native

March 21st, 2009, 11:54 PM

From the Journal-Sentinel news article posted aSo $420 for the train from Milw to Green Bay. Anyone know what the cost of the USH 41 expansion project will be as a comparison?

According to this report from Howard: http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:Nc6NdO62rfsJ:www.villageofhoward.com/cm/pdfs/news/DOT%252041%2520PowerPoint.pdf+ush+41+green+bay+reconstruction+%24545,000,000&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a the estimate is $545,000,000 for the Brown County portion.

Night Rider

March 22nd, 2009, 11:00 AM

From the Journal-Sentinel news article posted above about trains...:

I didn't see anyone who looked like Knight Rider... At least not until later in the night, when I saw this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls_uzZV51fM)..

Someone slipped something in my drink that night. It was a set up! :) Thanks for bringing back the classic.

Green Bay Sponge

March 23rd, 2009, 01:41 AM

Someone slipped something in my drink that night. It was a set up! :) Thanks for bringing back the classic.

And I just rode on the back of you a few weeks ago to deliver the crown to King Neptune!

I don't believe you ever got drunk, although I did have a bit of an ice cream hangover a few days ago (no, not really).

You've done good Hasslehoff, you've done good!

Jschmuck

March 23rd, 2009, 05:07 PM

Glad to hear all this good news in regards to, everything i guess. I just wish this passenger rail wouldn't be so far off, but that unfortunately takes a lot of time.

In the beginning of April, i will be a resident of downtown, so i hope to help downtown retail out a bit. Hoping for a grocery store, or is there one already?

Puant, are you the one driving around in your foot-powered vehicle, and ordering large peices of meats at drive-thrus that make your vehicle topple over? j/k
Anyway i too have been following the Olympic bid and hope that Chicago gets it because there will be a large amount of activities in southern wisconsin not just the biking. congrats to getting your blog recognized by media.

jerkylips999

March 23rd, 2009, 05:49 PM

GBSurveyor

March 23rd, 2009, 07:24 PM

I was thinking about the rail proposals over the weekend, & came up with a question. This may be a dumb one, but if they are upgrading existing rails for higher speed trains, what happens to the "traffic" that's currently on those tracks? Can you "detour" trains? From my observation, most busy frieght lines have "sidings" where the freight train pulls onto and waits for the passenger line to go by. I would assume that really busy lines would maintain 2 sets of tracks much like the metra system, then I also assume there must be some communication center where all the locations are tracked and reported to prevent accidents and allow for minimal disruptions. I am not sure what the money in the governors requests would cover. I am sure there are some in the know that will be able to provide more details.

mgk920

March 23rd, 2009, 08:41 PM

gobrewers

March 23rd, 2009, 09:42 PM

Hey all! First time poster but I've been lurking here for almost a year. In fact, you guys have inspired me to write a paper for my Intro to Public Policy class on the Midwest Rail Initiative! Im a sophomore at UWGB with an undeclared major but I'm thinking about a History major or Urban and Regional Studies major or something I dont really know what to do with my life yet haha. But I'm from suburban Milwaukee so I'm keeping a close eye on the redevelopment going on in both of my beloved cities. I stumbled upon this website and it is absolutly perfect, particularly this GB thread and how active it is. Love it. Keep up the good convos hopefully I'll be able to add my $0.02 every once in awhile, its intimidating with how much knowledge there is in this thread! Cheers

Ps. Puant I love your trolley idea, especially if it would come out here to campus. I find it funny that UWGB prides itself so much on being enviornmentally friendly but you need a car to get anywhere in this town! A trolley that connects UWGB and the downtown bars would be epic!!!

Jschmuck

March 23rd, 2009, 10:28 PM

Welcome gobrewers!

Glad another one is here that sees the benefits of mass transit by rail. NOW you BETTER like roundabouts ay?! :)

im also from milwaukee and thus follow that area, well i follow the whole state.
good luck with school, lookin forward to makin 2 more cents!

GBSurveyor

March 23rd, 2009, 11:04 PM

ALL railroads have train dispatching - sort of the rail equivalent of air traffic control. It is a critically important part of a railroad's operations. The rules are complex and ALL train service employees are *REQUIRED* to know them by heart.

BTW, all of CN's routes in Wisconsin are dispatched from an office in suburban Chicago.

MikeReally... so on a national level how are the Amtrak trains tracked? I was under the assumption there was a national control center. I am sure that some routes travel over more than one system. ie empire builder? I remember seeing a special on one channel- most likely history- where there was this huge command center tracking trains. I find that relatively amazing how goods get transferred by rail, considering all the different RR there are or were. Anyways thanks for the input

Bartles53

March 24th, 2009, 01:01 AM

From my observation, most busy frieght lines have "sidings" where the freight train pulls onto and waits for the passenger line to go by.

My understanding based on articles I've read about Amtrak is that it's the opposite as you have described above. Freight trains have precedence over passenger trains. One of the complaints about passenger rail (at least in some parts of the country if not everywhere) is the somewhat regular delays that are caused by the fact that the freight trains control the rail lines.

Jschmuck

March 24th, 2009, 01:07 AM

and what i heard bartles is that passenger trains DO have the right of way, and delays for passenger trains is based off of mere congestion from freight trains. yes the freight train companies own the lines but are given incentives if the passenger trains make on time stops. thats what i heard.

mgk920

March 24th, 2009, 03:39 AM

Really... so on a national level how are the Amtrak trains tracked? I was under the assumption there was a national control center. I am sure that some routes travel over more than one system. ie empire builder? I remember seeing a special on one channel- most likely history- where there was this huge command center tracking trains. I find that relatively amazing how goods get transferred by rail, considering all the different RR there are or were. Anyways thanks for the input
Amtrak trains are dispatched by whomever owns the tracks that they are using. Normally, a railroad company will, like any other companies of course, want to put their own customers first and thus they want to give their own trains priority, but yes, Amtrak does pay handsome bonuses to their hosts for good on-time performance treatment of their trains. Historically, BNSF has been EXCEEDINGLY Amtrak-friendly while Union Pacific has been the opposite. Interestingly, the Chicago-Milwaukee Hiawathas (they use Canadian Pacific's track) consistently lead all of Amtrak in 'on time' performance.

:cheers1:

Mike

Puant

March 24th, 2009, 04:36 AM

According to this report from Howard: http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:Nc6NdO62rfsJ:www.villageofhoward.com/cm/pdfs/news/DOT%252041%2520PowerPoint.pdf+ush+41+green+bay+reconstruction+%24545,000,000&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a the estimate is $545,000,000 for the Brown County portion.

Thanks, Native. This answers my question exactly. Almost a $billion for the Brown & Winnebago portions together. That presentation was interesting. I agree that portions of Hwy 41 need to be upgraded (particularly things like the causeway over Lake Butte des Mortes in Winnebago Co) but I question some of the other spending, particularly the lane additions and especially wild 'n crazy interchanges at such high cost. Yet, nobody raises an eyebrow at this kind of spending. I find that interesting. In the end, will it really be safer? And how much time will it shave off? Are we spending hundreds of millions of dollars just to save 10 minutes of travel time? 15 minutes? How much time savings is worth how much $$?

Glad to hear all this good news in regards to, everything i guess. I just wish this passenger rail wouldn't be so far off, but that unfortunately takes a lot of time..

The passenger rail thing could be done in short time. It's not a hugely complicated project, imo. Most of the tracks are already there (or at least the r/w is); many of the stations are still around (plus it doesn't really take much to set up a station if a new one is needed). They could roll in some trains from somewhere and presto we're done. OK it's not quite that simple but it's not much more difficult than that, either. This all was discussed at the "bring back passenger rail" meeting that was recently held at Titletown Brewing Co. We had some speakers who seemed to know what they were talking about, and I didn't even have to drink any kool-aid to believe it (OK, maybe someone spiked the Hopasaures Rex, I don't know).

In the beginning of April, i will be a resident of downtown, so i hope to help downtown retail out a bit. Hoping for a grocery store, or is there one already?..

East side or west side of the river?

Puant, are you the one driving around in your foot-powered vehicle, and ordering large peices of meats at drive-thrus that make your vehicle topple over? j/k
Anyway i too have been following the Olympic bid and hope that Chicago gets it because there will be a large amount of activities in southern wisconsin not just the biking. congrats to getting your blog recognized by media.

I can relate so well to cavemen. Thanks on the blog props, though I'm trying my damndest (sp?) to stay anonymous, because it's not about me, it's about the ideas and the community. Fox 11 was the 2nd TV station to approach me about this...I had turned down Ch. 5 for an interview a couple months ago. Of course, the "brownfield" stadium isn't even my idea...it came from this site and from other people, all I did was render some of the ideas up. It's "out there" now, and I hope everyone gets behind the downtown stadium concept. I wonder what the reaction to this news was to the public "at large"? Has the Press-Gazette posted any articles on this yet? If they do, what will the nutjob commenters post about the idea on the P-G website?

Hey all! First time poster but I've been lurking here for almost a year. In fact, you guys have inspired me to write a paper for my Intro to Public Policy class on the Midwest Rail Initiative! !!!

Sounds like a GREAT project :) Can you research whether that $421 million for the Milwaukee to Green Bay stretch is for the "high-speed" (110 mph)? To me $421 million seems too high, I think that MUST be for the more expensive 110 mph run (to go from 79 mph to 110 costs go up rather exponentially due to the tighter tolerances of tracks, more regulated crossings, etc as I understand it).

I thought I heard that the 79 mph train would be a lot less.....like half that cost ($210 million) from Milw to GB and would be less disruptive to cross-street traffic. I'd be happy with the 79 mph run to start with, at least.

Anyway, Sounds like a good project, keep us posted (can you even share your final paper here?)

Im a sophomore at UWGB .... I stumbled upon this website and it is absolutly perfect, particularly this GB thread and how active it is. Love it. Keep up the good convos hopefully I'll be able to add my $0.02 every once in awhile, its intimidating with how much knowledge there is in this thread! Cheers!!!
Excellent, welcome aboard.

Ps. Puant I love your trolley idea, especially if it would come out here to campus. I find it funny that UWGB prides itself so much on being enviornmentally friendly but you need a car to get anywhere in this town! A trolley that connects UWGB and the downtown bars would be epic!!!

I've had those same thoughts for years. I understand what the founders of UWGB were thinking, to be "different" in the midst of the beautiful arboretum...but in the end, the campus still should have been on the near-west side of the downtown, IMO. It still could have been an environmental college and still could have used that plot of land for studies, had the owners still been wililng to donate it (or sell it cheap). As I understand it, the land deal that got the current site was key to bringing UWGB to Green Bay at all (the university could have ended up in Appleton otherwise...I think we...(Danillo?) discussed this before..)

Amtrak trains are dispatched by whomever owns the tracks that they are using. Normally, a railroad company will, like any other companies of course, want to put their own customers first and thus they want to give their own trains priority, but yes, Amtrak does pay handsome bonuses to their hosts for good on-time performance treatment of their trains. Historically, BNSF has been EXCEEDINGLY Amtrak-friendly while Union Pacific has been the opposite. Interestingly, the Chicago-Milwaukee Hiawathas (they use Canadian Pacific's track) consistently lead all of Amtrak in 'on time' performance.

:cheers1:

Mike

Mike, just want to say thanks again for all of your knowledgable insight on all of these matters. It seems you really know your stuff.

Hell, all of you bring good info to this forum, I think that's what makes it so popular, again, even though we don't have a lot of huge skyscrapers going up here.

Jschmuck

March 24th, 2009, 04:48 AM

East side or west side of the river? East side, in Riverside Place Condominiums

If Chicago does get the olympics, then i think northeastern Wisconsin needs to do an AGRESSIVE advertisement campaign to get tourists to the area before, during, and after the games.

Nativist

March 25th, 2009, 01:03 AM

Probably a ridiculous question, but is there olympic football? Probably not, but surely we do have a world class sporting facility here in town...

gobrewers

March 25th, 2009, 01:28 AM

Green Bay Native

March 25th, 2009, 01:30 AM

Probably a ridiculous question, but is there olympic football? Probably not, but surely we do have a world class sporting facility here in town...

Technically yes, there is "football" as an Olympic sport. But it is the international term for soccer.

Green Bay Native

March 25th, 2009, 02:08 AM

I dont think there is Olympic football as most other countries dont really play. I've heard rumors of USA soccer maybe playing an exhibition game at Lambeau sometime in the future though. I think that'd be awesome. The only question would be if the playing field is wide enough for a regulation size field. I went to a game at Soldier Field a couple years ago and it was great.
According to this, http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-936429-p-3.html Lambeau Field is not big enough (in width as all football fields are long enough for soccer fields) for a World Cup match, but soccer rules allow a slightly narrower field for other matches, so an exception could be made for this.

Night Rider

March 25th, 2009, 07:24 AM

from the Press Gazette
"Green Bay has lost its appeal in the Younkers lawsuit, which could mean it owes Wisconsin Mall Properties about |$6.4 million, according to lawyers’ estimates"

Shouldn't there be some heads on the chopping block for this error? I understand Jadin is gone, but isn't there a current attorney still on staff that helped draft this? How about some council members?

Nativist

March 25th, 2009, 06:43 PM

I know it's going to be a good day when I agree with Night Rider!

Puant

March 25th, 2009, 08:06 PM

Some thoughts/questions:

1) Saks was moving Younkers to Ashwaubenon ANYWAY, regardless of what Mall Properties or the City of GB wanted. Correct?

2) So if Younkers was leaving downtown regardless, what purpose did Mall Properties want with these buildings and their lease? I doubt they had any interest in the lease at all, since Younkers was leaving and the mall was dead. Although the lawsuit was technically warranted, I suspect the main purpose was just to bilk the city out of money. So who is fundamentally at fault here? The city didn't handle it well, but why isn't anyone questioning Mall Properties as well? Would they not have just sat on that property forever and ever after Younkers left? Wasn't the city doing what it thought was in the best interest of the city to try to just move on with this property and get it redeveloped while the developin' was good? (good economy, renewed interest in downtowns as a market trend, etc)

3) If we could go back in time and have a "do-over"...what would we have done differently? I know I would have lobbied to keep the Younkers building at the corner, to open up the windows again and restore the facade. There was no reason to condemn it. That was a classy old building and a key landmark to the city. The claim was that the "foundation wasn't strong enough" but ... strong enough for what? Cars! That's what. Vetter wanted a parking ramp here to support his River Center development, the foundation wasn't strong enough to hold cars but I think it was probably good enough for the existing building & people. I wish the old buiding would have been converted to the children's museum, we'd be done by now. Instead we have a lawsuit, a hole in the ground, my kids will be grown before the children's museum is finished, and to boot, a bombed-out building next door and an empty mall. Oh, and the economy has tanked, banks are insolvent and there's no money to do anything. Oh, and it's also fodder for the anti-downtownites ("see, we told you to just abandon downtown already...") What a mess. Hindsight is always 20/20 and these developments are always tricky, but geez, could this have gone WORSE?

5). Anyway. What do we do now? Go find the Mall Properties party I guess.

4) Maybe I'm off base here...since I dont' have all of the information and was not involved in any of the decision-making, I may be all wrong. These are just some of my thoughts/ questions...