Night Rider...Fair enough.

What's the final analysis here? I guess the city should learn its lesson and JUST STOP TRYING! If there's even 0.1% chance of failure, don't take the damn risk in trying to coordinate development in the downtown. Just abandon that damn albatross known as "Down Town". I see that's what the majority of the comments on the P-G site say about all of this.

Maybe we need some new leaders in the city who understand this. We need some leaders who try nothing at all. Right?

Night Rider...Fair enough.

What's the final analysis here? I guess the city should learn its lesson and JUST STOP TRYING! If there's even 0.1% chance of failure, don't take the damn risk in trying to coordinate development in the downtown. Just abandon that damn albatross known as "Down Town". I see that's what the majority of the comments on the P-G site say about all of this.

Maybe we need some new leaders in the city who understand this. We need some leaders who try nothing at all. Right?


Puant. Yes, I want the city & downtown to fail. I prefer we have a bunch of caves with cavemen & cave-women running around. Are you happy now?

http://cache.reelzchannel.com/assets/content/article/cavewomen-welch.jpg

Night Rider...Fair enough.

What's the final analysis here? I guess the city should learn its lesson and JUST STOP TRYING! If there's even 0.1% chance of failure, don't take the damn risk in trying to coordinate development in the downtown. Just abandon that damn albatross known as "Down Town". I see that's what the majority of the comments on the P-G site say about all of this.

Maybe we need some new leaders in the city who understand this. We need some leaders who try nothing at all. Right?

If that happens, Green Bay, Wisconsin might end up looking like East St. Louis, Illinois, with the crime and abandoned buildings included.

Regarding the mall, I think it's overly simplistic to say that something went wrong so therefore someone should be fired. It's also not true that in the private sector costing the company money would necessarily result in someone losing their jobs... there are plenty of people employed in our country's financial sector that cost their companies a lot more than 6 million dollars and yet have remained employed (and gotten their bonus).

Specifically, what happened here is that the city helped Saks get out of their lease early, and in return the city got a deal on the Boston Store building which Saks owned. To the owners of the Younkers property, whether Younkers stayed in business or not was neither here nor there, they had a lease signed for their space for a few years, and the lease was broken. Their lawsuit then was against Saks, not the city. The problem was that the city agreed to indemnify Saks against any legal action if the lease was broken.

Not, I can't for the life of me figure out how that was a good idea. Obviously it was important to Saks, and they probably had (and in retrospect, did have) a good idea what they were doing there. The city's legal team interpreted the law to say that this was a safe bet for the city. I'm not a lawyer and I don't know if that was a reasonable interpretation or not, but the courts ruled it was wrong.

So if we're laying blame, I guess it falls to the city attorney (no longer with the city), the mayors (mostly Jadin but Schmitt too) and the Council. So, of those left, it's really up to the voters to take action if they feel it necessary, but of city staff I'm not sure heads should roll just because we need a scapegoat.

Finally, Puant, I know you're passionate about the city and the downtown, but I don't think anyone here is saying we should give up on the downtown because the Younkers deal has gone sour, and you have to take the PG commenters for what they are, which is a group of people fundamentally opposed to anything new. But, I mean, in the end the city royally messed up by agreeing to take responsibility for Saks' problems, there's no getting around that and people are just going to be (rightly) upset about it.

Whats amazing is we have people in Green Bay that have little vision running the city and then you have cities like Dayton ohio
http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2009/03/25/ddn032509downtownweb.html

The City of Dayton needs to STOP these shenanigans right now! This Shelley Dickstein, Dayton's assistant city manager for strategic development, should NOT be wasting ANY of her time (and most importantly, the city's tax dollars) on studying the engineering feasibility of the designs, OR promote the plans to potential developers and investors. Just what the hell does she think she's doing? She should be FIRED, NOW!!! There is a chance one of these developments will FAIL!!! Doesn't she realize this???

Moreover, there's no way in HELL the City of Dayton should be offering development incentives, including $1 million a year from the Main Street Corridor Program!! What a WASTE of Dayton tax dollars THAT is. What if they fail? That's millions of $$ down the taxpayer drain.

I say GOOD THING that Green Bay has leaders who STOP this sort of silly development incentive and coordination, and rather say NO to everything. The city leaders best sit back and do absolutely NOTHING at all.

Oh, and WTF? I see one of these Dayton ideas is to turn a current parking garage into some sort of artsy "entertainment venue". Well Lah De Frickin Dah! Bunch of freakin' yuppies. Just where the hell are people supposed to PARK now, Huh? What a bunch of idiots.

Night Rider...Fair enough.

What's the final analysis here? I guess the city should learn its lesson and JUST STOP TRYING! If there's even 0.1% chance of failure, don't take the damn risk in trying to coordinate development in the downtown. Just abandon that damn albatross known as "Down Town". I see that's what the majority of the comments on the P-G site say about all of this.

Maybe we need some new leaders in the city who understand this. We need some leaders who try nothing at all. Right?

The City of Dayton needs to STOP these shenanigans right now! This Shelley Dickstein, Dayton's assistant city manager for strategic development, should NOT be wasting ANY of her time (and most importantly, the city's tax dollars) on studying the engineering feasibility of the designs, OR promote the plans to potential developers and investors. Just what the hell does she think she's doing? She should be FIRED, NOW!!! There is a chance one of these developments will FAIL!!! Doesn't she realize this???

Moreover, there's no way in HELL the City of Dayton should be offering development incentives, including $1 million a year from the Main Street Corridor Program!! What a WASTE of Dayton tax dollars THAT is. What if they fail? That's millions of $$ down the taxpayer drain.

I say GOOD THING that Green Bay has leaders who STOP this sort of silly development incentive and coordination, and rather say NO to everything. The city leaders best sit back and do absolutely NOTHING at all.

Oh, and WTF? I see one of these Dayton ideas is to turn a current parking garage into some sort of artsy "entertainment venue". Well Lah De Frickin Dah! Bunch of freakin' yuppies. Just where the hell are people supposed to PARK now, Huh? What a bunch of idiots.
Doing nothing never solves anything!
Do you want a city like these?:

East St. Louis, IL
Gary, IN
Harvey, IL

I sure the hell don't. If you want a good city, SOMETHING must be done, or else crime, urban decay, unemployment, lack of education, and health problems might take over. I don't want that in my city. :ohno:

The City of Dayton needs to STOP these shenanigans right now! This Shelley Dickstein, Dayton's assistant city manager for strategic development, should NOT be wasting ANY of her time (and most importantly, the city's tax dollars) on studying the engineering feasibility of the designs, OR promote the plans to potential developers and investors. Just what the hell does she think she's doing? She should be FIRED, NOW!!! There is a chance one of these developments will FAIL!!! Doesn't she realize this???

Moreover, there's no way in HELL the City of Dayton should be offering development incentives, including $1 million a year from the Main Street Corridor Program!! What a WASTE of Dayton tax dollars THAT is. What if they fail? That's millions of $$ down the taxpayer drain.

I say GOOD THING that Green Bay has leaders who STOP this sort of silly development incentive and coordination, and rather say NO to everything. The city leaders best sit back and do absolutely NOTHING at all.

Oh, and WTF? I see one of these Dayton ideas is to turn a current parking garage into some sort of artsy "entertainment venue". Well Lah De Frickin Dah! Bunch of freakin' yuppies. Just where the hell are people supposed to PARK now, Huh? What a bunch of idiots.
And not only that, but Dayton is still operating and expanding their electric 'trackless' trolley-bus system.

Mike

Dayton's an interesting city. I've had the chance to visit there a couple of times, and on one visit spent about an hour with the head of the Downtown Dayton Partnership, their version of DGBI. They have done a lot there, and still face some major challenges. It's worth noting that the city isn't terribly comparable to Green Bay in that the MSA population is near 1 million, but at the same time it's a place that GB can learn from for sure.

Two major projects they've done are a quite large riverfront public space (much larger than the CityDeck) called RiverScape (http://www.metroparks.org/Parks/Riverscape/Home.aspx) which is quite nice and features, among other things, a huge fountain in the middle of the river. It's pretty cool. I believe they received a SIGNIFICANT amount of Federal dollars from a transportation bill to help fund the phases of this project. They have also built a new ballpark for their Single-A baseball team. 5/3 Field (http://www.daytondragons.com/fifththird/about/) seats about 8,000 and they play about 70 games a year.

There's also a fair bit of blight in and around the downtown, and they are battling a public perception that the downtown is unsafe (a perception that seems to be in equal measures deserved and overblown). They also have an abandoned mall! The Dayton Arcade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dayton_Arcade) is much, much nicer than Port Plaza was, and seems to be less of an obstruction to the downtown, but it's still vacant and a challenge.

Regarding the article, I don't see that as particularly meaningful. It's nice to generate ideas, and good that the city is supporting them, but there's no developers. Who knows if any of those are feasible? I mean, it's good to dream (Lord knows we do enough of that here) but it doesn't mean any of that will ever happen. It was a nice exercise and I hope it helps them.

Furthermore, that sort of thing isn't opposed to what Green Bay tries to do. If developers came along interested in doing projects in Green Bay, the city works with them. Neither Guy Zima nor the commenters on the Press Gazette website represent the will of Green Bay. The pro-downtown aldermen keep getting re-elected, and at least one anti-downtown alderman simultaneously got crushed running for Mayor and lost is seat on the City Council. Council votes consistently support the downtown. Yes, there's a lot that needs to be done here, but there is progress and it takes time to rebuild a downtown that took 30 years to ruin.

6 million dollars could have funded a lot of development, now it's going to line someone's pockets. I guess the real question is whether the presence of Baylake Bank/APAC is worth that kind of expenditure. Let's not be hyperbolic though, no one's calling for indiscriminate firings or a total cessation of publicly funded economic development.

March 26, 2009
NEWS RELEASE
For Immediate Release
Contact: Greg or Ann DeCleene
Owners, Black & Tan Grille
920.639.3819 or 920.639.3818, amdecleene5@aol.com

Black & Tan Grille Moving into Three Floors of Bellin Building
NEWS RELEASE

(Green Bay) The Black & Tan Grille announces an expansion into three floors of the historic Bellin Building (130 E. Walnut Street) in downtown Green Bay featuring a smoke-free, upscale lounge, restaurant and penthouse space. The move includes the consolidation of Quincy’s and Black & Tan Grille, both owned by Greg and Ann DeCleene, providing a better lounge and restaurant connection and additional space for private parties in the penthouse. Black & Tan Grille will open in its new location on Thursday, April 2nd.

The Black & Tan Grille on the 2nd floor will feature steak and seafood selections and the 1st floor Black & Tan Lounge will feature an extensive wine list, martinis, margaritas and a selection of appetizers. The lounge will include comfortable seating and a relaxed atmosphere with live piano music on Friday and Saturday nights. The 9th floor Penthouse will include three private rooms including the Lambeau Room, Safford Room (named after the former building owner) and Studio B (named for the space’s historic significance as a studio for WBAY.) The restaurant will be open for lunch Monday through Friday beginning at 11 a.m. and dinner seven days a week beginning at 5 p.m. The Black & Tan Lounge will open daily at 4 p.m. The Black & Tan Grille in De Pere will close Sunday, March 29th and Quincy’s will close Saturday, March 28th.

Owners Greg and Ann DeCleene believe the consolidation combines the best qualities of the two restaurants by using the name recognition of the 10-year-old Black & Tan Grille and the downtown Green Bay location of Quincy’s with the growing developments, office occupancy and popularity of the Meyer Theatre. “We believe the expansion helps us better serve our guests whether they want to enjoy a relaxed lounge atmosphere, an upscale dinner in the restaurant or private party in the Penthouse. Although we are moving a business from De Pere, we have other restaurants that are and will continue to be long-standing within the De Pere community,” said Ann DeCleene.

The DeCleene’s currently hold additional ownership interest in the Black & Tan Grille Appleton, Caliente La Fiesta Mexicana in De Pere, Legends in De Pere, Howard and Ashwaubenon, Chicago Street Pub in De Pere and the Swan Club in De Pere. They employ 250 people throughout Northeast Wisconsin and do not plan to alter staffing in the consolidation. Questions can be directed to Greg DeCleene at 920.639.3819 or Ann DeCleene at 920.639.3818 or e-mail amdecleene5@aol.com

This is very tangential, but this issue with the high schools is one that continues to interest me. My problem with a fifth high school is that it represents really retrograde thinking. Class sizes are an issue, and I think that we do need to make changes. But, instead of another mega-facility, I'd much rather see a different model for high school education that uses smalller, more focused high schools distributed throughout the community. How about a high school on a farm that stresses ecology? A high school focused on technology? Deeper, but narrower education... I think that's a better way to go in the future than what we have which is pretty mediocre schools that seldom inspire students to care about anything in particular. If a student cares about one thing deeply, then he or she is better equipped to understand other things too.

I may not be remembering this correctly, but it seems like all of the development & financing was "set to go" for that space, & that was part of the reason for moving forward quickly. Don't get me wrong, I'm not making excuses for the decision, but in fairness, I think it would have been hard to expect the challenges & delays in getting ANYTHING moving.

In retrospect, if they would have sat on the the decision for a while, most likely Younkers would have closed, broke their lease, & kept the city off the hook. It seems almost like impatience to get moving on the redevelopment that was the main problem.

very interesting news about black & tan. I've never been there (too pricey, from what I've heard) but I heard it's good. I always thought that depere location was strange, & kind of surprised it stuck around there as long as it did.

so..I take it the "black & tan lounge" will be in the space where bull & bear is now? I wonder if the coffee shop is staying?

Good to see that the Black and Tan will be moving downtown. Since they are under the same ownership as Quincy's was, hopefully they will keep the same lunch menu. I did enjoy their lunches and they weren't that expensive. Although from what I heard the knock on Quincy's was that their dinners were horrible. Hopefully with the Black and Tan moving their dinner business will pick up, as I have never heard a complaint about dinner at the Black and Tan other than the price.

Also, hopefully this will draw people out of De pere that normally would never go downtown Green Bay, much like Chefetta's drew people out of Allouez to downtown. Now if only there was something for them to do down there before or after dinner, other than see a show at the Meyer.



so..I take it the "black & tan lounge" will be in the space where bull & bear is now? I wonder if the coffee shop is staying?

I am assuming that the coffee shop would remain open. It is a different owner than the other places and from what I can tell, they do an alright business. At least whenever I have gone in there the place has been fairly busy.

very interesting news about black & tan. I've never been there (too pricey, from what I've heard) but I heard it's good. I always thought that depere location was strange, & kind of surprised it stuck around there as long as it did.

so..I take it the "black & tan lounge" will be in the space where bull & bear is now? I wonder if the coffee shop is staying?

Yes, the Daily Buzz is staying.

Black and Tan is great. I've been there a couple of times for "big occasion" type dinners (birthdays, etc.). Very good.

Although from what I heard the knock on Quincy's was that their dinners were horrible.

I can only speak for myself, but my wife and I ate at Quincy's once, and my meal was good, and my wife's meal was very, very good.

Is Black and Tan closing their De Pere operation, is that what they mean by consolidating?

The Black & Tan Grille in De Pere will close Sunday, March 29th and Quincy’s will close Saturday, March 28th.

Posted in original article above...

Anyone going tomorrow nite at 6PM 2nd floor........I saw an article in Press-Gazette - from 6PM to 8PM. Anyone EVER been to an ON Broadway meeting?

I've been to several of the annual meetings over the years. Depending on how they are run they are very interesting. They will be introducing some new staff members as well.

As they just won a major main street award it will be interesting to see what is discussed and how much input will be requested from the audience.

How to see all you there..

K

I can only speak for myself, but my wife and I ate at Quincy's once, and my meal was good, and my wife's meal was very, very good.

My wife absolutely loved Quincy's, unfortunately I never got a chance to go. Everyone I've talked to that went there loved it as well.

I'm very surprised they are consolidating Black and Tan there. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great, but normally we hear of places closing their doors downtown and opening a big hole that takes 5 years to fill.

I think this will make the downtown food scene even better. As Jeff Mirkes said, pass the word on!

I heard Quincy's was doing really well, so I wouldn't say they were starving for business. I heard what the monthly revenue was and it wasn't bad trust me. From what I heard, Quincy's and Republic Chophouse actually helped each other out with the clientele they brought in. Also, I heard that there will be a new restaurant/bar going in where the old Black & Tan use to be on Washington. Wasn't that the Black & Tan over near Brewbakers years a go?

I was a bit worried about Quincy's. Great to hear the Black & Tan will keep that place going.

Oh, and obviously I was being sarcastic and facetious about Dayton and firing people and all of that. I guess I was trying to make a point, that is, that I hope the city doesn't stop trying. Maybe I got a little bit overly excited last night (it was probably the cavewoman)

re: Gary,Ind....I love what they did with their DT ballpark. It's a pretty neat sight from the HW...hmm,you could almost imagine something similar in GB somewhere....hmmmm.

http://i41.tinypic.com/a3phz5.png
http://i39.tinypic.com/10i59xv.png
http://i41.tinypic.com/34rhm4g.png



opened in 2003,seats 6,000 and cost 40 million.

In today's press-gazette. sounds like they really have a vision for the larsen site. lots of good ideas.. I especially like the trader joe's idea..

Broadway district has designs on art museum
Plans discussed at Thursday town hall meeting
BY RICHARD RYMAN • rryman@greenbaypressgazette.com • March 27, 2009

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An art museum will be part of the Larsen Green development if Broadway District planners are successful.


The museum was among the projects discussed Thursday during On Broadway Inc.’s annual town hall meeting in the Shopko Express building at Broadway and Dousman Street.

Larsen Green is the 22-acre former Larsen Canning Co. site which On Broadway purchased in 2007. It is a planned mixed-use retail, residential and public use development.

“We’ve been tossing the idea around for several years,” said Michelle Zjala Winter, owner of The Gift Itself, 125 N. Broadway. “The creative class is really huge. They are reconnecting with people who make things. Art museums bring a lot of people from outside the area.”

She said the museum would feature Wisconsin artists in particular. “We need to show young artists there’s a future,” she said.

Kelly Czypinski said a steering committee will be formed soon to begin the long process of developing plans, raising money and getting the museum built. She said ground breaking could be as early as 2012.

In addition to recounting On Broadway’s activities in the past year — which included receiving a Great American Main Street Award earlier in March — staff asked attendees to suggest areas of improvement.

Suggestions included:

♦ Close Broadway between Dousman and Walnut streets during the Wednesday night farmers markets.

Czypinski said On Broadway revisits that suggestion every year. She said there are two obstacles to closing the street: it would cost about $10,000 to close it for 20 Wednesdays during the summer and Broadway businesses don’t want it closed. She said crossing guards will be at intersections this summer to add to safety.

“Many businesses do not want the street closed, but they do want traffic to slow down,” Zjala Winter said. “It’s a very fine line to walk.”

She said they are studying ways to do that for the coming summer.

Czypinski said the farmers market is being expanded to 20 weeks this summer, from June 3 to Oct. 14.

♦ Attract a bookstore and photography/print studio to the district. Also, get a Trader Joe’s grocery store.

“I couldn’t agree more. We’re going to work on it at the next (International Council of Shopping Centers) convention,” Czypinski said.

♦ More residential housing, high-end housing especially.

Condominiums and apartments are part of the Larsen Green master plan, said Dan Rorarty of Dimension IV architects, an On Broadway board member.

“I would guess two-thirds of that will be market-rate housing,” he said.

♦ Find ways to honor Fort Howard, which was on the Larsen Green site.

Czypinski said the On Broadway staff now totals six with the addition of Jeremy Johanski, program and marketing coordinator, and Jessica Maass, administrative assistant.

Maybe I got a little bit overly excited last night (it was probably the cavewoman)

Glad your doing ok. I was a little worried.

I went to the OnBroadway meeting last nite.....didn't stay for the whole show.......I recognized a few "dignitaries" although I can't say for sure who they really might have been:nuts:

Anyone from SkyScraperCity go? I saw a few slack jawed knuckle draggers there (Puant?).

There were a lot of smiling people all upbeat and everything....not much new though that I wasn't already aware of.......nice to see people trying to look ahead.......

Well boys and girls, I'm off to D.C. for a week, with stops at Gettysburg, Antietam, Shenandoah, and Great Smoky Mountains along the way. I hope upon my return to be greeted by stylish renderings of River Center!!!

Well boys and girls, I'm off to D.C. for a week, with stops at Gettysburg, Antietam, Shenandoah, and Great Smoky Mountains along the way. I hope upon my return to be greeted by stylish renderings of River Center!!!

Have fun....I was in DC all of 1968.......never got a chance to really appreciate it though... what with being young, naive and surrounded by burning things...............and bullets flying!

sounds like they really have a vision for the larsen site. lots of good ideas..

An art museum will be part of the Larsen Green development if Broadway District planners are successful.

“We’ve been tossing the idea around for several years,” said Michelle Zjala Winter, owner of The Gift Itself, 125 N. Broadway. “The creative class is really huge. They are reconnecting with people who make things. Art museums bring a lot of people from outside the area.”

She said the museum would feature Wisconsin artists in particular. “We need to show young artists there’s a future,” she said.

Czypinski said the farmers market is being expanded to 20 weeks this summer, from June 3 to Oct. 14.

♦ Find ways to honor Fort Howard, which was on the Larsen Green site.


I'll be opening a cave art studio if all goes well.

Seriously, though, I like the whole Larsen Green concept. THis thing could turn out to be something that really does keep a certain significant portion of the population at least somewhat interested in Green Bay. It's an excellent opportunity & vision. Also, I like the idea to include some sort of Fort Howard recognition. I hope the historical society-types are talking to the artist types about this. I need to make more time for these sorts of community things.

I went to the OnBroadway meeting last nite.....didn't stay for the whole show.......I recognized a few "dignitaries" although I can't say for sure who they really might have been:nuts:

Anyone from SkyScraperCity go? I saw a few slack jawed knuckle draggers there (Puant?).

There were a lot of smiling people all upbeat and everything....not much new though that I wasn't already aware of.......nice to see people trying to look ahead.......

I was there... but I doubt I count as any kind of dignitary... LOL

At the beginning of the meeting - the following were there... several left a half hour to hour in... Former Mayor Jadin, Scott Smet of Smet construction (who building the building we were in), Downtown Green Bay Inc head Jeff Mirkes,

Suspiciously missing - Guy Zima, Mayor Schmidt or any other city alderpersons - at least that I recognized

Mostly everyone else were past or present business owners, neighborhood residents and staff/board members of On Broadway.

In completely unrelated news, Knight Rider Season 1 is available free, streaming at Hulu.com: http://www.hulu.com/knight-rider-classic.

In completely unrelated news, Knight Rider Season 1 is available free, streaming at Hulu.com: http://www.hulu.com/knight-rider-classic.


Awesome....Puant...don't be jealous, some day they might stream old "land of the lost" episodes....

http://www.hipsterama.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/land-of-the-lost-2.jpg
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some of our alder-persons ancestors....


http://www.boxofficeprophets.com/tickermaster/loadimage.cfm?image=landofthelost.jpg

Unforunately we are still living in this episode....


Season 3, Ep 10: Timestop
8.91 Review

An ancient Altrusian key controls the flow of time. He who holds it has the power of time travel at his fingertips...If one fully understands how to use it. Unfortunately, Enik is alone with that knowledge, so Uncle Jack must come to him for help after disaster befalls poor Cha-Ka.
Aired: 11/13/1976

It only took 3½ weeks, and they're news again.

Round 2 for roundabouts

Updated: Sunday, 29 Mar 2009, 5:25 PM CDT
Published : Sunday, 29 Mar 2009, 3:51 PM CDT

* Reporter: Robert Hornacek

VIDEO (http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/local_wluk_greenbay_round_2_for_roundabouts_032920091543_rev1)

GREEN BAY - It may be miles away from Military Avenue, but east Mason Street now has something in common with it's west-side counterpart: a debate about roundabouts.

"There are a lot of close calls out there," said alderman Tom Weber. He is asking the city's traffic commission to consider putting in two roundabouts on Mason. One would be at the intersection of Ontario and east Mason, the other a few blocks down at Huron and east Mason. Weber represents the west-side but works on the east-side. In fact, his office is on the corner of Mason and Ontario. That's the corner he said needs a roundabout the most.

"I just think it would flow better and obviously be safer," Weber said.

As you can imagine, there is some opposition to the idea of putting roundabouts at these intersections, including one alderman who actually supported roundabouts in the past. Jerry Wiezbiskie voted for roundabouts on Military. But he does not support the idea on east Mason.

"interestingly enough, it's also in an area," Wiezbiskie said, "where some of the people in my district are not in favor of roundabouts."

The main reason he opposes it, is that the street was recently rebuilt and designed for stop lights. In fact, Wiezbiskie said the city is expected to put up stop lights soon at Ontario and Mason.

"To put a roundabout in there would be very, very costly. It's cost prohibitive I would say," Wiezbiskie said.

Weber says it should still be looked at. "If it makes sense today, it's gonna make sense 10 years from now. The only problem with 10 years from now is it's gonna cost twice as much money to do it. Maybe we're better off to bite the bullet today and put 'em in. Maybe not, but let's look at it," Weber said.

The traffic commission will look into it Monday night.The meeting is at 5:30 at Green Bay city hall and is open to the public.

It only took 3½ weeks, and they're news again.


Sounds like Wiz-Bisque-y might be just trying to keep his head off the proverbial chopping block of a recall. You would think it wouldn't hurt to do a study or have a report made on the possible cost of a roundabout vs the cost of adding stoplights. He may be opposing them for the right reason...but after all the other politicians got spanked & ran off with their tail between their legs, I don't know that he wants to even visit this topic.

Other things, Astor place is confirmed dead. I know I saw it was rumored, but I might have missed the official announcement. Mr Mirkes confirmed that it was dead and they are now focusing on lower end condos $100-200k for new development downtown.


Was anything mentioned about that developer from out west that expressed interest in Site 1 possibly getting a shot at developing it now? That would be great as I remember hearing that he had financing and investors already lined up. I sent Jeff Mirkes an email asking this, but have not heard a reply yet.

Sounds like Wiz-Bisque-y might be just trying to keep his head off the proverbial chopping block of a recall. You would think it wouldn't hurt to do a study or have a report made on the possible cost of a roundabout vs the cost of adding stoplights. He may be opposing them for the right reason...but after all the other politicians got spanked & ran off with their tail between their legs, I don't know that he wants to even visit this topic.

I think your right in the motivation behind Wiezbiskie's statement. Personally, I think a study doesn't hurt anything either.

I live on the west side, just off velp. last night on the way home I was going by the old jubilee/supervalu grocery store on the corner of velp & gray, & they're tearing it down!

there's a trailer in the parking lot with some "development company" name on it. anyone know if there's a plan for that space or if they're just tearing it down?

I was going by the old jubilee/supervalu grocery store on the corner of velp & gray, & they're tearing it down!


I thought the roof was bad... maybe not worth fixing..

Are they taking down the whole building? or just the grocery store side?

I thought the roof was bad... maybe not worth fixing..

Are they taking down the whole building? or just the grocery store side?
It looks like they're just tearing down the grocery store side of Pioneer Plaza, and replacing it. There are still some remaining businesses inside, like Style & Smile Salon, and H&R Block. Colonial Village Liquor closed. The Sure Way/Jubilee Foods/RJ's SuperValu became a temporary campaign headquarters for democrats Barack Obama and Steve Kagen last year during the presidential election, before it became vacant once again.

I thought the roof was bad... maybe not worth fixing..

Are they taking down the whole building? or just the grocery store side?

so far only the grocery store side - we'll see..

Wasn't a sign board approved over main street a long time ago? I thought it was supposed to be attached to the walkway connecting the parking ramp to the Sierra Hotel/Convention Center.

Smet Construction seems to have found a tenant for the Old Train Station. i hope they can really grow from the current 2 employees they have right now.

Business lender opens in former Green Bay Chamber building

By Richard Ryman • rryman@greenbaypressgazette.com • April 2, 2009

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First Business Bank-Northeast opened an office Wednesday in the former Green Bay Area Chamber of Commerce building, 200 S. Washington St., Green Bay.
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The two-person office will consist of Tim Beno, market president, and Tammy Schrank, client relationship specialist.

Parent company First Business Financial Services, which has its headquarters in Madison, has more than $1 billion in assets and is traded on the Nasdaq stock exchange under the FBIZ symbol.

Beno has 17 years banking experience in the Green Bay area market, having worked with Associated Bank, FirstStar/U.S. Bank and First Northern Savings & Loan/Bank Mutual. He joined First Business 11 months ago to begin working the local market.

"Our business model is to bring in the lender first. It's an organic-growth model," Beno said.

As its name implies, First Business Bank focuses on business lending. It does not do retail banking and there's no cash on site. Its clients bank electronically, Beno said.

He said the bank focuses on small- to mid-sized businesses. It does little mom-and-pop and micro-lending.

"Deals start to make sense to us at $500,000 and up," he said.

Beno said the downtown site was important.

"A physical location is not critical from a client perspective, but from a visibility perspective, it is," he said. "We definitely want to stay downtown."

Contact Beno at (920) 435-5442 or tbeno@firstbusiness.com. The Web site is www.firstbusiness.com.

Smet Construction seems to have found a tenant for the Old Train Station. i hope they can really grow from the current 2 employees they have right now.

[/url].

I was kind of hoping for a restaurant or art studio type of place. Something that bring back some of it's history that we all could enjoy. Oh well, that's a pretty expensive property for a two person office, but at least it's occupied.

Kavarna coffeeshop brews up move to Broadway
Italian delicatessen will open in same building
rryman@greenbaypressgazette.com • April 2, 2009

Kavarna coffeehouse and vegetarian restaurant will move up the street in June, relocating to the Egyptian revival building at 143 N. Broadway, Green Bay.


Owners Alex and Linda Galt also will open Parisi's Delicatessen, an Italian deli, in the same building.

"We belong on Broadway. I think Broadway is rapidly becoming one of the more exciting dining districts in Green Bay," said Alex Galt.

Kavarna opened at 112 S. Broadway, in the block just south of Walnut Street, in 1999.

Kelly Czypinski, executive director of On Broadway Inc., said the move will strengthen the district.

"You couldn't pick a better building for them to move to. We are doubly thrilled they are adding another business," she said. "My only concern is we need to fill the building they are in now, but it's a really neat building. It will be filled."

She said the return of Maria's Mexican Restaurant to Broadway and Walnut Street should help that block, while Kavarna's move will solidify the center of the district.

The former Jones Motor Co., to which Kavarna is moving, is one of three buildings in the state known to have an Egyptian revival facade. The Galts are leasing the building, but have a first option to purchase it.

The 2,300-square-foot building will allow for both businesses, and a larger Kavarna, Galt said. The current Kavarna is 1,600 square feet with a small kitchen.

"Kavarna's current location has a single, undivided seating area. This has been an enormous limitation," Galt said. "The new location will have a loft area … (that) will make it possible for us to host private parties, accommodate meetings and seminars, and to charge admission for selected musical events."

Parking also will be improved. Kavarna has four dedicated parking spaces and street parking at the South Broadway site. It will have 26 spaces of its own behind the building on North Broadway.

The Galts had planned to move Kavarna across the Fox River to the WaterMark project being developed by Vetter Denk Architects. The delay of that project, originally called RiverCenter, and the availability of the Jones building prompted them to reconsider.

"Overall, we are much happier with this plan. If it had been available when we started talking to John Vetter, we would probably have gone with that building instead of even looking at RiverCenter."

Parisi's will have a 600-square-foot space with limited seating, but customers can sit on the Kavarna side of the operation. It will offer sandwiches, as well as local and imported foods and wines. Galt said it will be an old-school delicatessen that should tie in well with the weekly farmers markets in the summer.

Czypinski said an authentic deli will be a good addition to the district and the city.

"They will be serving really high-quality meats and cheeses. They are going to blend local products and imports in a fun way," she said.

Galt said they will replace the garage door facing Broadway with a custom-made window that looks like a garage door, maintaining the look of the building. The Egyptian revival facade will stay as it is, though cleaned up.

Kavarna has seven employees. The businesses will add the equivalent of another six full-time employees after the move, he said.

Smet Construction seems to have found a tenant for the Old Train Station. i hope they can really grow from the current 2 employees they have right now.

Business lender opens in former Green Bay Chamber building

By Richard Ryman • rryman@greenbaypressgazette.com • April 2, 2009

First Business Bank-Northeast opened an office Wednesday in the former Green Bay Area Chamber of Commerce building, 200 S. Washington St., Green Bay.
Advertisement[/url].

The address was confusing me as there is an office building at 200 S. Washington, and the old train depot is at 400 S. Washington St.

Then I saw it was a P-G article, so I would not expect them to check to see that the address was correct. :nuts:

Any news yet today on the Watermark RDA Meeting?

Just released from the Press Gazette.

Downtown Green Bay WaterMark plans OK'd by RDA
Developer Vetter presented cash flow analysis, facade plans for project on former Younkers site
APRIL 3, 2009
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The Green Bay Redevelopment Authority today approved a revised agreement and facade plans for the WaterMark development on the Fox River.



Calumet County Bank will loan developer John Vetter $4.5 million for 30 months. The city will loan Vetter $3.5 million for between 30 months and seven years. Wisconsin Housing and Economic Development Authority (WHEDA) will provide Vetter a New Market Tax Credit loan for 20 percent of the value of the project for seven years. Vetter will contribute $260,000 in cash in addition to the $900,000 in work already done.

Today’s special RDA meeting was held so Vetter could present a cash flow analysis and exterior plans and drawings for the development on the site of the former Younkers department store just south of Main Street.

WaterMark will include office, retail and condominium spaces in the former Younkers building, Hagemeister Park restaurant, the Green Bay children's museum and a two-level parking garage.

Harry Maier, RDA chariman, said the cash flow analysis, discussed in closed session, looks good.

“Theoretically, we could be out of this project in 20 months,” he said.

The Green Bay City Council will consider the proposal at its meeting Wednesday. The council meets Wednesday because of the election on Tuesday.

-- Richard Ryman/Press-Gazette

Any news yet today on the Watermark RDA Meeting?


I don't like it. In my opinion, the added windows and balconies on the old rendering gave it more of a 'Third Ward' Milwaukee feel. The awnings look cheap, the window/viewing area where Kavarna was to supposed to be looks cheezy and un-interesting and I don't care for the them basically 'slapping' some windows in where the existing horizontal stretch of openings in the front of the building. Where is the detail and articulation? Did Vetter not get the memo that this is the freaking waterfront! Maybe it will look better when it is done, but CRAP! Discuss.

http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/news_wluk_greenbay_development_on_track_200904031643_rev1

I don't think its that bad. No, its not a huge glass building that would look beautiful off the riverfront, but I think its a good use of funds to tie in the surrounding buildings will adding a little more appeal. I like the use of reds (a little better than the browns next door), but nothing too crazy that will make it look out of place. I am all in favor of a big, glass building someday, but I am more in favor of getting something started NOW that will bring retail, residential, and commercial downtown.

I doubt it will look better. Green Bay has the most uninspired,dull,lifeless,boring,bland modern architecture of just about anywhere I've been.

Take the Flats. That building is at best mediocre. It wouldn't look bad if it had been built say where that seedy motel is on Monroe. There it would give some density and height to the area and wouldn't look out of place with what is around it.

But as a signature building along our much hyped 'redeveloped' water front it looks stupid and ugly and out of place and makes me think nothing about an active,vibrant water front.

I'm just at a loss for words. If you look at websites for just about any other city doing what we are trying to do, these other cities are working on, and finishing, projects that are exciting and make sense.

I just don't get Green Bay. Are our people stupid? How can a city lack so much vision and creativity?

Aren't there Chicago arch. firms we could've hired? Don't these people look, stop and envision how something is going to look on the lot?

I'm also tired of how the finished building never looks like the drawings.

I saw a drawing of the parking ramp back when it was a proposal on packerland annals and for a ramp it was pretty solid. The one they built is just butt ugly.

Sure..it's just a ramp you say..but on a pretty prominent plot of land. If you are going to waste a primo lot on PARKING at least make the ramp LOOK good.

The riverfront isn't even done and I'm already considering it a disaster/failure based on the fact I know this cities history and looking at the projects that have been completed I can say we have learned NOTHING.

Green Bay has the most uninspired,dull,lifeless,boring,bland modern architecture of just about anywhere

I just don't get Green Bay. Are our people stupid? How can a city lack so much vision and creativity?

I'm also tired of how the finished building never looks like the drawings.



Last Fall when I was first learning how to use Photoshop I did this fake magazine cover. Looking back at the photo of the riverfront now all those things stand out; uninspired, dull, lifeless, boring, bland.

As for vision and creativity, many people around here use that for decorating the inside of their ice shanty.

I don't have much hope for that highly sought after creative class ever establishing itself in Downtown. The live/work loft concept seems to be a hard sell around here. Maybe that will change with Larsen Green being that it has been planned that way from the get go instead of the hodge-podge development on the East side..

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww359/GB-Pix/UrbPlanMag.jpg

Hate to have a third negative comment in a row (wouldn't want this to become the Press Gazette comments) but the rendering looks awful. Why did they feel the need to change it? The WM emblem on the tower is beyond tacky. John Vetter actually is a wonderful architect, which makes me think that he just doesn't really care.

I had read where there were concerns with look of the last renders of the WaterMark which brought the change. My opinion has no pull, but I have MORE concerns after seeing this. The WaterMark and the Flats don't relate which I thought was part of an agreement with the Stone House design. How is that going to look? Is the city just desperate to fill that building? I have the feeling that they are just settling to get it done. I do really like this warehouse and was happy that is wasn't demoed and think it could be sharp with some detail and imagination put to use, but c'mon. I actually hope Guy Zima steps up on this one and says this is unacceptable. Well, with Astor Place dead, the bright side might be that Vetter will have no more riverfront projects and hopefully no more in Green Bay period :ohno:. This is your legacy too Jim Schmitt. I wish that T Wall could have been recruited to do this project.

The riverfront isn't even done and I'm already considering it a disaster/failure based on the fact I know this cities history and looking at the projects that have been completed I can say we have learned NOTHING.

I don't think it can be called a complete failure yet. Site 1 and 4, if ever developed, can definitely save the river front and still make it an overall success.

In the Fox11 article it mentioned how already 70% of the retail space was sold. I'm assuming that included the Children's Museum and Hagermeister Park, but if some of the retail was sold facing the water will that already be built out and ready to go or is this plan to simple frame everything in and wait for everything to sell?

Morse, you mentioned T-Wall. Has anyone heard anything yet regarding the mall site? Did we get stimulus funds to demo it and has T-Wall secured an major tenants yet?

I am amazed that people are surprised as to what they are seeing for Watermark. Vetter has shown he is a failure on this sporject just look at the two albatross he has already done and yet Schmitt whats to make sure he gets his kickback and keeps this untalented uninspired "visionary" on the job to complete a dismal project. I really would like to see Green Bay change, instead of staying on the course they are, why not try to bring the old downtown look back, stop with the steel and glass, it's not that kind of city, give it a old town try to match the Northland hotel look, try to fit into what is left to the retail shops, take a look at what Broadway is doing to recover, give the ciity some charm with class, stop trying to be Detroit, that is not Green Bay.

Any other renderings of WaterMark besides these? The above one is from the WLUK video and the bottom one is the older rendering.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q28/westwinder/watermark.jpg

Interesting, what's the little tower for on the WaterMark rendering?

Interesting, what's the little tower for the WaterMark rendering?

Paule, I asked Vetter if he could include a tower for 4 floors, because I specifically asked for a 4 floor condo... No on a serious note many many years a go there use to be a water tank inside the tower. The rendering is incorporating this Green Bay landmark.



Do you guys know if they are still planning on doing the whole glowing lantern/ lighthouse look that they talked about a year a go?

I'm a little surprised at the negativity. After such a long wait, it's good to hear that we are FINALLY moving forward.

Am I in love with this design? No, but I also don't think that this one building is going to make or break the downtown redevelopment. go to any city & you'll see "cool" buildings & ugly buildings. this building doesn't look great, but it doesn't mean that there won't be other opportunities..

We all have been patiently waiting for the riverfront to take shape for several years now. Hang in there guys.. much information I am not at liberty to pass on, but there are several positive things ahead. We will get there. It will be 2 or 3 more years before it really takes shape and we will be proud.

We all have been patiently waiting for the riverfront to take shape for several years now. Hang in there guys.. much information I am not at liberty to pass on, but there are several positive things ahead. We will get there. It will be 2 or 3 more years before it really takes shape and we will be proud.

Please don't tease us! :) Could the things you are not at liberty to discuss hypothetically involve sites 1 or 4?

From what I've seen, the design for the Watermark isn't bad. It looks like the existing building, and I think that's a good thing. If I have a complaint it's with the Fox Lofts which, while it uses some of the bones of an existing building, isn't a design that reflects the history of the site and as such I wish they had done more with it. But the Watermark does used the existing building, is the only piece of the riverfront that has any relationship the the site's history, and as such I think should look like that warehouse, which it does.

What this leaves us with is the two bookend sites, and I think we need interesting designs there that are reflective of today. Not that they can't reference anything from the past, but I don't want an architect caught up in trying to reproduce "the old downtown look," which is itself a collection of varying styles that were contemporary upon their construction and that only fit together and seem old because they are. If you try to replicate the look of something like the Northland today, what you end up with is Baylake City Center, which while I applaud the people it has brought downtown, is hardly a triumph of design. The skills and materials for what was built 70+ years ago are cost prohibitive today. You can reference older styles (Nicolet Bank), but the design and materials must still be of today (I don't think anyone would miss that Nicolet is a contemporary building).

Basically, if a building is actually old, respect that (as I think the Watermark does), and if a building is new, then design the best building that you can (which I don't think is the case with the Fox Lofts).

What this leaves us with is the two bookend sites, and I think we need interesting designs there that are reflective of today. Not that they can't reference anything from the past, but I don't want an architect caught up in trying to reproduce "the old downtown look," which is itself a collection of varying styles that were contemporary upon their construction and that only fit together and seem old because they are. If you try to replicate the look of something like the Northland today, what you end up with is Baylake City Center, which while I applaud the people it has brought downtown, is hardly a triumph of design. The skills and materials for what was built 70+ years ago are cost prohibitive today. You can reference older styles (Nicolet Bank), but the design and materials must still be of today (I don't think anyone would miss that Nicolet is a contemporary building).

Basically, if a building is actually old, respect that (as I think the Watermark does), and if a building is new, then design the best building that you can (which I don't think is the case with the Fox Lofts).

You summed it up perfectly Danillo. As for Nicolet Bank, I like it and think it's a well-designed building. I think it's a strong and sturdy looking building, which is what a bank should be. Maybe in 70+ years people will be saying that new buildings should be more traditional-looking like Nicolet Bank.

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww359/GB-Pix/NicoletBankSmall.jpg

Kind of interesting to go to the Vetter Denk website and look at their portfolio. There are some nice renderings of Green Bay waterfront that haven't been shown. Ahhhh, the possibilities and disappointment.http://www.vetterdenk.com/

I'm with Danillo on this one. I'm not sure how much more they could have done to jazz up the existing structure. More balconies most definitely would have given the building an added dimension but I don't think that balconies make sense considering the purpose of the building. The middle 3 floors are for office space, thus no need for balconies. It's hard to tell but I believe the top floors (residential) do have balconies. Am I correct in thinking that the old plans for the Younkers building had many more residential units and less office space? If that's the case apparently there is a better market for office space than residential these days. And I can't blame the guy for trying to fill up the building quickest way possible. Now if we're talking about the original render from way back (the one Danillo used to have on his DowntownVital website), yeah, I'm pretty heartbroken that the site didn't turn out that way. Just too cost prohibitive, I'm assuming. Had demand been through the roof and money flowing for residential and office units at that price point, the building probably would have been finished by now in that image. I also think Juza had a better looking plan for the site but who knows if he would have had any easier of a time putting a workable deal together.

One other thought on the side by side renderings that Bay2Bay posted, the current render is shown during the daytime while the old one is an evening shot. I think that makes a difference in how the buildings are perceived. The new drawings may look much more spiffy in an evening setting with the building lit up. I just hope the boardwalk includes a lot of greenery to soften up the industrial look.

http://www.watermarkgb.com/images/large_images/residential_552x300.jpg

You would think the watermark site would have the most current photo rendering. If it turns out similar to this, I don't think we can complain much.

You would think the watermark site would have the most current photo rendering. If it turns out similar to this, I don't think we can complain much.

just looked at the site & they still have renders of astor place, so I don't know if I would agree with your suggestion..

Anybody up for the beginning of this event?

clearly we'd be a long shot, but think what this could do for the local economy...

Lambeau Field listed as potential World Cup site
Press-Gazette • April 8, 2009


Lambeau Field in Green Bay is on a list of 70 stadiums that are potential venues for soccer matches if the United States is chosen as the host for the FIFA World Cup in 2018 or 2022.


Camp Randall Stadium in Madison also is on the list released this afternoon by U.S. Soccer.

Letters detailing the bid process and criteria for venue selection were sent last week to public officials and stadium managers, who must respond to the USA Bid Committee by April 17.

Stadiums must have a capacity of 80,000 to host the opening and final matches. Lambeau Field’s capacity is 72,928. Camp Randall Stadium’s capacity is 80,321.

The U.S. is among nine nations wishing to host the 2018 or 2022 World Cup. The hosts will be chosen in December 2010.

“The United States is uniquely qualified to stage the FIFA World Cup in 2018 or 2022 as demonstrated by the dozens of metropolitan markets with venues capable of staging World Cup matches in every respect, from the quality of their stadiums to their overall ability to accommodate thousands of fans, news media and visitors from around the world,” U.S. Soccer president Sunil Gulati said in a media release.

“We will soon begin discussions with officials from throughout the U.S. in the name of presenting a world class proposal to FIFA and the global soccer community.”

Aside from Green Bay Packers games, the only other major sporting event ever hosted at Lambeau Field was the Frozen Tundra Hockey Classic between the University of Wisconsin and Ohio State in February 2006. It drew a crowd of 40,890.

Other Midwest venues on the U.S. Soccer list: Kinnick Stadium in Iowa City, Iowa; Soldier Field in Chicago; Paul Brown Stadium in Cincinnati; Cleveland Browns Stadium; Faurot Field in Columbia, Mo.; Ohio Stadium in Columbus, Ohio; University of Michigan Stadium in Ann Arbor, Mich.; Ford Field in Detroit; Spartan Stadium in East Lansing, Mich.; Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis; Arrowhead Stadium in Kansas City, Mo.; the new TCF Bank Stadium and the Metrodome in Minneapolis; Notre Dame Stadium in South Bend, Ind.; and Edward Jones Dome in St. Louis.

^^

As much as I would LOVE LOVE to see this happen, I dont think there is a chance. The field is just too narrow and the people up here are even more narrow-minded about soccer in general. One look at the GBPG comments section will tell you that, what a joke. While Camp Randall has over 80,000 capacity, with the renovation I think it's playing surface would be too narrow too, plus the football lines on the artificial turf would be cause for some distraction. Its fun to dream though!

^^

As much as I would LOVE LOVE to see this happen, I dont think there is a chance. The field is just too narrow and the people up here are even more narrow-minded about soccer in general. One look at the GBPG comments section will tell you that, what a joke. While Camp Randall has over 80,000 capacity, with the renovation I think it's playing surface would be too narrow too, plus the football lines on the artificial turf would be cause for some distraction. Its fun to dream though!

These stadiums would need to be temporarily modified by cutting out the corners to make them wide enough overall. For Camp Randall, they would need to install a temporary grass surface as World Cup rules require a natural grass surface, and other sites considered with FieldTurf would also need to do this. In 1994, they even did this to the Silver Dome so a match could be played there.

Downtown Green Bay Development Back on Track

From wbay.com

The Green Bay City Council approved a downtown riverfront development project late Monday night. The council voted 9-3 to allow developer John Vetter to resume work on the former Younkers site.

Construction is expected to start next month. "It's an amazing feeling, it's almost too hard to put into words" Vetter said after the vote. "All we want to do is do what we do best and that's make buildings, make beautiful places for downtown and for the community" he continued.

The $23 million "Watermark" development will include office space, condos, a children's museum and a restaurant. Vetter plans to open the children's museum by the end of this year and the rest of the project about a year from now.

Work stopped nearly a year ago when Vetter couldn't get enough financing in the midst of the national credit crisis. Vetter has now lined up a $4.5 million loan from Calumet County Bank, and the council's approval includes a $3.5 million loan from the City of Green Bay.

Vetter credited Calumet County Bank with making the project possible. "Calumet County Bank looked at the deal in a particular way they made it work for them" Vetter told us after the city council meeting. "They were really the first to jump on the bandwagon to do that and we brought it back to the city and we all thought it was a good deal."

Despite the bank's involvement, three council members voted against approving the project and loan from the city, partially citing a lack of financing from local sources. During debate Ald. Guy Zima claimed Vetter had unpaid taxes. Zima asked for guarantees Vetter would complete the work.

"I want to know what the personal guarantee entails and I think this body should see those guarantees in writing, and whatever collateral is backing it up we have the right to have a lien against in case there is not performance" Zima said during debate. "I think it's important that just like any bank or any one doing do diligence would say, 'put up the collateral, put your name on the dotted,'" Zima continued.

After the meeting Vetter cited how other council members responded to Zima. "There has been months of meetings with subcommittees and the RDA and we've addressed all of the issues," Vetter said. He continued, "if he was so interested he could have spent the time at those meetings rather than bringing it up at the last minute in a rather uniformed way."

-------------

It's kind of a half and half feeling. Sort of mixed. Like hooray, but I wish it was more and we don't regret this project happening when it is finished...

It's kind of a half and half feeling. Sort of mixed. Like hooray, but I wish it was more and we don't regret this project happening when it is finished...

I kind of have that feeling too. It would be nice if AP was still going up with River Center. As for regretting it after it gets finished I'm going to try and not let my expectations grow too much so I won't feel let down after the project is done.

Having the Children's Museum open by the end of the year will help to alleviate some of that possible let down. I'm sure businesses along N. Washington like Fetaz will welcome the new visitors to the area.

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww359/GB-Pix/Fetaz02Small.jpg

The urban infill/redevelopment project of the Pabst Brewery in Milwaukee is chugging along even in the slow economy. Apparently attractive projects in desirable urban settings can still sell. It's a good sign for the similar but smaller in scale Larson Canning and Watermark projects in Green Bay.

http://www.jsonline.com/business/42885472.html

After reading your post, I decided to try Fetaz which I have never been to. Wow! It was it great.

My wife and I will be going back often.



Having the Children's Museum open by the end of the year will help to alleviate some of that possible let down. I'm sure businesses along N. Washington like Fetaz will welcome the new visitors to the area.

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww359/GB-Pix/Fetaz02Small.jpg

After reading your post, I decided to try Fetaz which I have never been to. Wow! It was it great.

My wife and I will be going back often.

Glad to hear that. Now if everybody else that's local and reads this forum stops in for a falafel, gyro, roasted veggie pita, eggplant lasagna or something else from the great menu, it will help the owner Steve Melberg keep the doors open through construction and beyond. We need to support downtown business through the turbulent times ahead to ensure that efforts at downtown revitalization are successful.

The urban infill/redevelopment project of the Pabst Brewery in Milwaukee is chugging along even in the slow economy. Apparently attractive projects in desirable urban settings can still sell. It's a good sign for the similar but smaller in scale Larson Canning and Watermark projects in Green Bay.

http://www.jsonline.com/business/42885472.html

It appears from the outside that the site is all prepared and ready for new construction. On Broadway announced at its meeting s few weeks back plans for a museum but I can't remember if they had anything other than just that.

----------------------------------------------------

One of the points Danillo made a while back about the success of downtown was the effort needed to improve residential neighborhoods adjacent to Broadway and Downtown districts. Some progress is being made in that aspect. Habitat for Humanity helps revitalize Tank Neighbood in Green Bay (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090414/GPG0101/904140563/1207/GPG01) Tank Neighborhood is the area on the west side of the Fox River south of Mason St. next to where the coal piles are.

I just read over the minutes and feel a bit beter about the design.- There are a few more details here then I was aware of.

1. Review and possible action on the cash flow analysis and façade design for the Watermark area development.

The Authority may convene in closed session pursuant to Sections 19.85(1)(e), Wis. Stats., for purposes of deliberating or negotiating the sale of public properties, investing of public funds as necessary for competitive or bargaining reasons and pursuant to Sections 19.85(1)(f), Wis. Stats., to consider financial or personal histories of specific persons which if discussed in public would likely have a substantial adverse effect upon the reputation of the person referred to in such histories or data. The Authority may thereafter reconvene in open session pursuant to Section 19.85(2), Wis. Stats., to report the results of the closed session and consider the balance of the agenda.


R. Strong stated that the developer will provide information at today’s meeting that was asked for at the special meeting on March 18, 2009. This will hopefully provide everything needed for the Authority to feel comfortable to get this project moving forward.

A. Swanson distributed a term sheet with changes made from the March 18, 2009, meeting (copy attached). The changes were highlighted and a review of discussions since the March 18 meeting was provided. A lot of the discussion has focused on the cash flow. Initially, the order was WHEDA money in, then City, and then the bank. With more discussions on the timing of things, there were found to be benefits to the City money coming in last. If it is not drawn until after August 15, it delays the payment on the State Trust Fund loan and can reduce the carrying cost for the project. The bank was okay with switching the order. The order is now WHEDA, bank, and then City money paid to the project. The order for paying off the debt is the bank paid off first, then City, and then WHEDA. The cash flow scenarios were run based on this.

It was also noted that WHEDA requires an 80/20 split with their money so we’ll potentially end up doing a sinking fund or a substitution. If we got paid off and somebody else came in they would substitute that. Different things will happen in terms of our lien position because of that.

Also added to the terms was the hopeful approval of the façade.

A motion was made by M. Milano and seconded by D. Dallich to open the meeting for discussion. Motion carried.

John Vetter provided a review of what has happened with the project over the last couple of years, which included the approximately year-long demolition and abatement, indicating it has been a very demanding project. Positive things have come out of the project including opening Washington Street and ridding the site of environmental issues. He noted the sustainable quality of the project from a demolition standpoint. 80% was salvaged or recycled. There was a commitment to reuse existing buildings and that’s a great statement for the community. We are at a perfect spot to start construction on this project, with the CityDeck under construction. The two component parts of the construction will be the new construction and the renovation of the existing building. The new construction component involves a three-story parking deck with the Children’s Museum and Hagemeister Park below it. This is on the corner of Pine and Washington. A rendering was shown. The two upper floors of parking will be creatively hidden through a screen that will be offset from the parking structure, which will allow for backlighting. The structure of the screening material is made of the Ipe wood, which is the same wood to be used in the CityDeck boardwalk construction. A polycarbonate material will be hung on the wooden screen that will be backlit. The Children’s Museum square footage is about 15,000. The design of the Children’s Museum was reviewed. The exhibits themselves and the children and people inside become the signage/animation because of the glass frontage. Primary colors will be woven through the exterior. There is a very creative approach to this building. The other component of the new construction is Hagemeister Park. Jess Miller is purchasing approximately 11,000 sq. ft. for a family-oriented restaurant that will be a great place for sports events, family, or an after-work venue. Mr. Miller has obtained exclusive rights to use an outdoor courtyard terrace off the CityDeck. He will have the ability to utilize the space as a café terrace or other venues. There will be a series of glass doors for direct interface to the courtyard space and the CityDeck.

J. Vetter next reviewed the renovation of the existing warehouse building. He discussed the importance of saving and reusing this building because it is an incredible structure, it is environmentally responsible to not knock down the building, the building contains captivating spaces, and the history of the building. The window openings and detailing were pointed out. The name WaterMark and the importance of the building having its own identify were discussed. They will take an older building that has a lot of history and supercharge it into an activated building. It is unique in being a complex building with a live, work, play dynamic.

The base of the building is about activation with the CityDeck. The work done to this portion will be the most invasive with opening up as much as structurally possible. Awnings with signage will be incorporated with down and up lighting to illuminate the pedestrian band on the CityDeck. The base is the solid corporate part of the building. Levels 2, 3, and 4 are all office, which is reflected in the windows, with uniformity and ribbon windows all facing the waterfront. The upper component is residential. It is the most activated part of the building and crowns the building with excitement. The historic water tower is converted to a light beacon and signage to be seen from the City scale. Everything removed, other than the brick, will be added in with a masonry based hand plaster, which is a sustainable, natural material. This product gives flexibility with color. The RDA design subcommittee desired to animate the top of the building with a reddish/burnt terracotta color, which was derived from some of the existing buildings on Washington Street. That color will be pigmented into the hand plaster and coordinated into the awnings at the pedestrian level. The subcommittee felt that a masonry building with a hand crafted material would be very appropriate. The east elevation rendering was shown with a color closer and more complimentary to the existing brick color, keeping the top residential portion the terracotta color.

J. Vetter discussed the pieces of the WaterMark building that are for sale. The bottom portion is retail and 70% of the retail space is sold. The quality of the building that will be the most appealing is its connectivity to the CityDeck. The office space portion of the building (45,000 sq. ft. total) is set up where each floor plate is 15,000 sq. ft. There is an opportunity to break each floor into smaller office spaces as low as 2,000 sq. ft. There are a variety of options to appeal to large, medium, and small businesses. The other thing that is important is that the parking is united to this building. One floor plate is dedicated to the residential and office with elevator access directly to the second floor. From the office space element, there are three things to offer: waterfront location, space with personality, and affordability through the New Market Tax Credit Program. From the residential standpoint of the development, the 5th and 6th floor of the building offers 25 loft-style condominiums with a variety of unit configurations. Each unit faces the water. Some units accommodate two bedrooms and three bedrooms.
It is an urban neighborhood they are trying to build with the combination of businesses and the CityDeck.

H. Maier questioned the longevity of the material on the exterior of the building. J. Vetter explained it is a masonry based product, which would be comparable to the longevity of concrete. In addition, it is sustainable.

T. Weber questioned if the building material is identical to the terracotta portion with the exception of the color. J. Vetter stated yes and it is all applied by hand. There are a series of steps for coating and it will be flush with the brick.

D. Dallich asked if there will be exterior insulation covered with the masonry product and expressed concern about metal studs bridging between cold and warm. J. Vetter indicated that it is undetermined at this time, but the insulation could be inboard.

D. Dallich stated he is comfortable with the cement based plaster. He would prefer exterior insulation board before this material to avoid metal studs being 10 below on the outside and 70 on the inside. He would like to take a look at a wall section at some point.

H. Maier asked the capacity of the parking ramp. J. Vetter stated it is two floors and each floor is about 82 spaces.

D. Dallich questioned the polycarbonate screening on the side of the ramp and asked if it would only be on two facades. He would prefer to see it on the exposed side of the building as well. J. Vetter indicated he would be willing to explore that. D. Dallich said he’d like to see something to screen it, even if it isn’t the polycarbonate. He complimented J. Vetter on his willingness to work with the design subcommittee. He liked the feature of how the awnings pick up on other parts of downtown. He would like an opportunity to see good sized mock-ups of the colors. J. Vetter stressed the importance of color and how they actually put the samples on the building to see in the daylight and overcast conditions. D. Dallich indicated it needs to be a more brownish tone than red. J. Vetter indicated that when they feel they have the appropriate color, the design subcommittee will be invited look at it.

A motion was made by J. Blumreich and seconded by M. Schueller to return to regular order of business. Motion carried.

A. Swanson requested to go into closed session if there is no further discussion on the façade.

Mayor Schmitt questioned what they are committing to as far as the exterior lighting. J. Vetter indicated they would like to see the base the most illuminated and they are proposing within the awning structure to have a series of down lights and up lights, but would like it to stop before it hits the residential. The top of the building would include illumination of the tower. There would be a brightly lit base washing up to the mid-part of the building and an exclamation part with the tower to be seen City-wide.

T. Weber asked what would be done on the northern end of the building that doesn’t have any awnings. It was explained that the parking ramp will be lit. D. Dallich encouraged fixtures that have an up/down light out of them to put at a mid-point.

J. Vetter indicated they will be exploring environmental energy grants. They would incorporate sustainable energy systems, but it will be grant dependent. Another option would be a lighting company donor.

The closed session notice was read. A motion was made by T. Weber and seconded by J. Blumreich to convene in closed session. Motion carried on a roll call vote.
H. Maier reported that during the closed meeting the Authority met with J. Vetter and A. Swanson to review the financing structure for the proposed downtown WaterMark building and the cash flow proposal will be forwarded to the City Council at the meeting on Wednesday, April 8 at 7:00 p.m.

A motion was made by J. Blumreich and seconded by T. Weber to amend the report from the March 18, 2009, meeting of the Redevelopment Authority to approve the Amended Summary of Terms for Construction Loan RiverCenter Project – April 3, 2009. Motion carried.

Chair H. Maier ruled for adjournment at 11:57 a.m.

Maybe this already has been posted here or is known, but there's another new restaurant on Broadway. Vita Rawstaurant, 131 N. Broadway, next to Beemster Electric and the new Kavarna/Parisi's location. Vegan. Very nice looking too. Article in last Saturday's Press-Gazette, 'tho the article sells Green Bay short. (The reporter, Thomas Rozwadowski, needs to get out more.) Article will last for a week before it goes to paid archives. Play the video in the upper right corner. You may get an ad first. On Broadway!

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090404/GPG0504/904040318

P.S. I believe the group advocating for Amtrak to Green Bay is having its second public meeting Thursday night at Titletown Brewing.

The historic water tower is converted to a light beacon and signage to be seen from the City scale. Everything removed, other than the brick, will be added in with a masonry based hand plaster, which is a sustainable, natural material. This product gives flexibility with color. The RDA design subcommittee desired to animate the top of the building with a reddish/burnt terracotta color, which was derived from some of the existing buildings on Washington Street. That color will be pigmented into the hand plaster and coordinated into the awnings at the pedestrian level. The subcommittee felt that a masonry building with a hand crafted material would be very appropriate.

I'm glad the water tower is being made into a light beacon, it will be an icon for downtown. I wonder if it will be moving or stationary. I hope that the hand plaster is applied properly so it isn't cracking and falling off in 5-10 years.

Tower Park Said: P.S. I believe the group advocating for Amtrak to Green Bay is having its second public meeting Thursday night at Titletown Brewing.[/QUOTE]

Hey I want to join this group and go to this meeting! What do I have to do? Anyone know any more details? What time is the meeting 7 or 8tish?

Anyone going to the Meyer Thea. (5:30 Wed nite) State of Green Bay Address?

GO WATERMARK!

As late as the 1950s they used to hang a colored weather ball atop what was then the H.C. Prange Co. department store (soon to be Watermark) tower. As I recall, by the red or green color and the high or low vertical positioning of the large ball (lit at night?), you could tell if the forecast was for fair or stormy weather as you walked, drove, bussed or biked across what was then the Main Street Bridge. This would have been before and/or just as television and local television weather programming arrived here. Blast from the past.

Re: Amtrak. Here's the agenda as I received it. Agenda numbers are off.

Agenda is below. If you did not get a copy of the Newsletter after the last meeting let me know and I will send you one.

Frank Ingram
1460 Maple Hills Drive
Green Bay WI 54313

920 445 3758

Fox Valley Passenger Rail Meeting

6.30 p.m. Thursday April 16 at Titletown Dousman Street Green Bay

For further information contact Frank Ingram at 920 445 3758 or email gbpassrail@new.rr.com.

Agenda.

1. Formal Resolution. To Establish a Citizens Group to Promote the Return of Passenger Rail Service between Milwaukee and Green Bay via Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, and Appleton.

1. Election of President (Chairs, Represents group to Press and in major Public Presentations).and Organizing Secretary (Organizes general meetings and co-ordinates activities of the group).

1. Adoption of Statement of Objectives
Proposal.
To support the most practical and efficient method of restoring passenger rail service between Milwaukee and Green Bay via Appleton connecting with service to Chicago which can be achieved at the earliest time.
To aim for an initial service with a maximum speed of 79mph and thereafter to promote incremental improvements to the service.
To actively campaign for public, State and Federal Government support of such proposals.
To support, whenever practical, the efforts of others to extend passenger rail service in the Midwest with which this service will connect.

1. Adoption of organizing structure.
Proposal.
Executive Committee consisting President, Organizing Secretary, Convenor of each Working and Local Group.
Working Groups covering Advocacy, Publicity and Campaigns, and Technical matters. Each working group to include any supporter who volunteers to help, with a Convenor appointed by the General Meeting (Executive to fill any vacancy).
Local Groups. Each supporter will be invited to nearest local group meeting, with a Convenor appointed by the General Meeting (Executive to fill any vacancy). Groups to be established Green Bay, Appleton, Oshkosh and Fond du Lac and as determined by the Executive.

Terms of Reference for Working Groups
Advocacy. Organizing meeting with Legislators, State and Federal Officials, Cities and Counties, Chambers of Commerce etc.
Publicity and Campaigns. Organizes publicity to the public including website, stalls and printed material.
Technical. Investigates proposals, suggest improvements and challenges objections.

Convenors organize group meetings and activities, minute discussions, report to Executive. Groups may appoint an ad hoc chair for meetings if necessary.

Annual Meeting. An Annual meeting will be held in the spring of each year and no later than 15 months after the previous annual meeting.

1. Election of Convenors.

1. Adoption of Name. Suggestions received so far:- Future 400 Railline; (The) Southern 400 Railline; NEWisconsin Rail; NEW Rail – serving the Fox Valley.

1. Future Activities
Stall Titletown Model Railroad Show 25/26 April.
National Train Day (see http://www.nationaltrainday.com/2009/ ) . This would be a good day to organize events locally.

1. Any other Business

Fox Valley Passenger Rail
c/o 1460 Maple Hills Drive
Green Bay WI 54313

Tower Wrote: Amtrak. Here's the agenda as I received it. Agenda numbers are off.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Tower.........

Enjoyed the State of the City address last night at the Meyer. Say what you want, Mayor Schmitt certainly is energetic. All kinds of interesting and important initiatives under way in a number of city departments. Didn't take notes, but I think his word for the night was "sustainability." Says he's big on that. Nothing new on the downtown front that I could fathom beyond what's known about WaterMark, Children's Museum, CityDeck, etc. He did say a multi-million-dollar facility will be opening on Liberty Street near the Georgia Pacific Broadway Mill to turn paper mill sludge into energy pellets, as I recall. I think he said it would the first of its kind in the nation. Sounds big.

Am I misunderstanding the mayor's remarks about Liberty Street? Doesn't the Kadant GranTek, Inc. plant already exist there and don't they already recycle paper mill waste???

Am I misunderstanding the mayor's remarks about Liberty Street? Doesn't the Kadant GranTek, Inc. plant already exist there and don't they already recycle paper mill waste???

Yes and no. Gran Tek is there. The new facility is addressed off of Liberty. It has basically been constrcuted and is very visible when you are driving along Riverside Drive or from Jimmy Sea's deck while enjoying a drink.

WASHINGTON (CNN) – President Barack Obama unveiled his administration's blueprint for a new national network of high-speed rail lines Thursday, arguing that such an investment is necessary to reduce traffic congestion, cut dependence on foreign oil, and improve the environment.

The president's plan identifies 10 likely high-speed rail corridors for federal funding, including California, the Pacific Northwest, the Midwest, Pennsylvania, Florida, New York, and New England.

It also highlights potential improvements in the heavily-traveled "Northeast Corridor" running from Washington to Boston, Massachusetts.

"My high-speed rail proposal will lead to innovations that change the way
we travel in America. We must start developing clean, energy-efficient transportation that will define our regions for centuries to come," Obama said at an event near the White House.

The president cited the success of high-speed rail in European countries such as France and Spain as a positive example for the United States.

Obama's plan would be funded in part through the recently-passed $787 billion stimulus plan, which includes a total of $8 billion for improvements in rail service. Obama has also proposed a separate five-year, $5 billion investment in high-speed rail as part of the administration's suggested fiscal year 2010 budget.

"We're going to make travel in this country leaner and a whole lot cleaner," Vice President Joe Biden said, speaking before Obama.

The president spoke one day after the governors of eight Midwestern states sent a letter to Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood requesting stimulus funds for the construction of a regional network of faster passenger rail lines.

The city of Chicago, Illinois, would serve as the hub of the proposed Midwest Regional Rail System, which would stretch to Madison, Wisconsin, in the northwest, St. Louis, Missouri, to the south, and Detroit, Michigan, to the east.

During the 2008 presidential campaign, Obama pledged to support a national network of faster passenger trains.

I wouldn't be overly concerned about the proposal saying it would stretch to Madison yet. First of all, it is pretty much certain that the high-speed rail would link Milwaukee and Chicago. However, the plans I have seen call for a passenger rail service to Green Bay, but not a high-speed one. Therefore, the CNN article may just be strictly talking about the high-speed service. The hope, recently, has always been that we could get passenger rail service to Green Bay and the Fox Cities. I don't think many realistically hoped that that rail service would be high-speed as the links between the more major cities are.

There are some very interesting facts and reports available at http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/rail.htm

The report entitled "MWRRI Benefit Cost and Economic Analysis" is very intriguing and motivating, however it is a little long.

Yes and no. Gran Tek is there. The new facility is addressed off of Liberty. It has basically been constrcuted and is very visible when you are driving along Riverside Drive or from Jimmy Sea's deck while enjoying a drink.

I have been wondering what that was for some time now.

ATTENTION!!!! Get out to REPUBLIC Chophouse tonight!!! Be there from 5-7pm and have the opportunity to be on TV!!! Fox 11 will be shooting footage for our up coming segment on "Living with Amy" later this month!!!!
www.republicchophouse.com

Anyone interested in attending the next (local) advocacy meeting (or receiving literature) to promote Passenger Rail Service from Green Bay via Fond du Lac, Oshkosh and Appleton (connecting with service to Chicago), contact Frank Ingram at gbpassrail@new.rr.com (preferred) or call 920-445-3758.

For information regarding the (larger) Midwest High Speed Rail Association go to http://www.midwesthsr.org/

I have been watching the developments regarding the progress of the old Xcetera / King's X (I loved Xcetera!) and the old Coppertop. I am looking forward to even more choices in the area.

I liked the look of the old Coppertop so I am a bit surprised that they are gutting the whole building.

I am also interested in the two restaurants design.

And finally, it will be interesting to see the pricing for each of these new restaurants. We have such a mix in the area now.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090419/GPG0703/904190663/1247/GPG03

They're gutting the whole building? That strikes me as odd. I wonder what their vision for it is? I'm itching for more details. I always thought that the renovation that Coppertop did was the one thing that it had going for it. I only ate there once back in the day and I found it a little overpriced for what it was. It's hard to base anything on a name but 'Chefusion' suggests something a little more creative so I'm hopeful.

As we learn here at UW-Stout, fusion cooking is a combination of more than one cultural culinary tradition, creating a new cuisine. Some may even call this 'World Cuisine' as it does not fit particularly into any ethnic cuisine. This is what I would assume, based on the name, that Chefusion will provide. I'm really excited something like this brought to Green Bay. Some restaurants offer fusion entrees, but there is yet to be a single restaurant devoted to it in Green Bay. Wolfgang Puck would be proud.

Anyone interested in attending the next (local) advocacy meeting (or receiving literature) to promote Passenger Rail Service from Green Bay via Fond du Lac, Oshkosh and Appleton (connecting with service to Chicago), contact Frank Ingram at gbpassrail@new.rr.com (preferred) or call 920-445-3758.

For information regarding the (larger) Midwest High Speed Rail Association go to http://www.midwesthsr.org/

I would have LOVED to attend the 2nd meeting (I did attend the 1st one).

Did anyone here make it? Can you provide a report? How many made it this time?

Did anyone notice that the bay beach master plan will be presented tonight at the city council meeting? i am very interested and can't wait to hear what that plan might be and how they plan to expand the amusement park.

Puant asked: Did anyone here make it? Can you provide a report? How many made it this time?[/QUOTE]


There were about 20 people there.......... some really really really know trains........others were college students wanting to get involved and expand upon their majors (advertising, commercial art, city planning etc.) and experience.....and one was a self described "activist" .....just give her a target and let her go........I want to work with her.

Short term Plan is to have a booth at the Model Train Show at the Resch Center and maybe a booth at the Farmers Maket in GB on Sat........other cities on the rout will of course try and get more people "on board" :lol: as we roll along.

I intend to stay involved and also join the Midwest High Speed Rail Assoc......see my earlier post with email address and web info.

Green Bay will receive $2.9 million, with $1.44 million for four new buses and $1.22 million for farebox, security and surveillance upgrades.



That's a lot of money for a few buses & upgrades. Almost sickening...seeing how the money we just keep printing is being wasted.

Hermosa-

Thanks. The first meeting had around 100 people or more, I'd guesstimate. I know what you mean - some were "train geeks" but many were like me, not so much "train geek" but interested in transportation solutions that didn't perpetuate our policy of spending trillions of $$ spent on roadways and to purchase petroleum from hostile countries and to go to war with bad guys if they also happen to sit on vast fields of oil.

Green Bay will receive $2.9 million, with $1.44 million for four new buses and $1.22 million for farebox, security and surveillance upgrades.

That's a lot of money for a few buses & upgrades. Almost sickening...seeing how the money we just keep printing is being wasted.

OK here's my take on this whole federal stimulus thing. The buses relate to this, let me try to explain:

I certainly don't feel comfortable trying to prop up the economy by "printing money" but we don't seem to have much choice. One option is for the federal govt to do absolutely nothing and to "let the market take care of itself". That's what Herbert Hoover believed in 1930 and things went from bad to worse. As Teddy Roosevelt said, "In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing."

It was only until FDR came along in the mid-1930s-1940s with his policies to continuously inject federal $$ into the economy that things started to improve.

What did we as a nation do with that prosperity after WW2 to get ourselves into the economic depression of 2009-201? I think a big part of it is that we put most of it into investments that can only survive on foreign oil, expensive personal transportation systems (freeways, personal autos, etc). That may not have been the best way to proceed. We subsequently destroyed our cities because people wanted everyting to cater to the car. Downtowns were dissected by freeways, beautiful places were destroyed in the desire for "more parking". The places that prospered were those which were built around freeways and parking--but that was short-term "success". Many conservatives are stuck on this model, because it's the status quo. But that is likely to change, whether conservatives like it or not.

I believe we're just starting to see the effects of this total dependence on cars, trucks and ultimately cheap oil. The adverse effects involve economic turmoil whenever oil prices rise, value diminishing due to the effects of cheap crap built around expensive, unsustainable, unnatural transportation systems (housing subdivisions, big box retail dependent upon vulnerable global supply networks, etc).

I think we need a new or at least modified system. The new system won't be all bad. Riding trains and busses isn't a horrible way to get around, provided our society is built more around them. CUrrently, mass transportation is kind of a pain only because our cities are generally built for cars instead. I'm not pleased to see so much of the federal stimulus money spent on roads and propping up bad banks and certain businesses, but I am actually glad to hear when this stimulus is spent on mass transit and things that will help many people in the medium-long term. Mass transit isn't cheap but ultimately provides more "bang for the buck". I don't want socialism, don't go there. But again, we seem to have gotten ourselves stuck between a rock and a hard place here. Obama himself said he'd rather not be doing this, but as bad as "printing money" is, the other choices are worse.

(wearing a shirt saying "I'm with Puant")

A lot of good quotes from the early 1900's.

Yes, we or the government does need to do something, and I think spending probably is the best way to go RIGHT NOW. Don't forget, the assembly of the buses will keep people employed, the surveillance system upgrades...ALSO, these things will be done anyways whether now or later...Later means inflation. Now means fix the economy.

In terms of the auto-centric nation, i think this country has been feeling the consequences of automobiles for a while;
-Health issues, also leads to insurance uh, BS. just look at the obesity.
-Expensive way of life. Automobiles are the luxury, not public transportations. Autos are very very very expensive in the end, and a lot of times althroughout. A standard vehicle depreciates 50 percent once its off the lot. wow
-pollution, goes back to health
-land issues, a road takes up more space than one railroad. How bout them divided highways, takes up about what?? 20 railroads side by side?
-loss of common courtesy; when people are in there vehicles, the attitude is completely unhealthy as well with anger, selfishness, stubborness, stress. yall know what i mean (the driving habbits)
-wasted time during long commutes...hell its time that could have been spent with the family.
The only benefit about autos, convenience....weighing public transit vs automobiles, it looks like people would be healthier physically and mentally, more land would be available for agriculture, less pollution, and people would have more money...seems to me when you put all these benefits together, you get that convenience back by taking public transit.

Bay Beach Master Plan. (http://media2.fox11online.com/pdfs/Bay_Beach_Master_Plan.pdf)Be sure to save it locally for future reference.

The train route is longer with more curves, and there's a rubber-wheeled trolley that runs the length of the park. On the Fox-11 newscast they stated 15-20 years for completion but I think that's figuring in the capping and expansion to kidney island.

Very well said, Puant.

The only thing I would add is that many choices made by Green Bay Metro in the past few years I think have made riding the bus less attractive to the general public.

Cutting routes, combining routes, cutting services from 1/2 hour to 1 hour, etc.

In order for those who are in love with their car to take public transportation, the options need to be easier.

Generally, people need to get to work, and when that is difficult or in some cases impossible with the bus, people won't take it seriously.



OK here's my take on this whole federal stimulus thing. The buses relate to this, let me try to explain:

Good points, Jschmuck.

Depending on which buses they order these could help keep jobs in the US. Last time Green Bay Metro ordered New Flyer 30FT Low floor buses. New Flyer builds buses in Canada and in the US (Crookston and St. Cloud, Minnesota)



Don't forget, the assembly of the buses will keep people employed, the surveillance system upgrades...ALSO, these things will be done anyways whether now or later...Later means inflation. Now means fix the economy.

Do buses really cost $360,000 each? Maybe, I have no idea, but it does seem like a lot. Are those buses going to improve service? It seems to me that the fundamental problem is the operational costs of the system, and an unwillingness to support meaningful transit. New buses can help somewhat, but I don't see that directly helping the core issue.

I mean, I'm with Puant on the need for transit and all, but I'm with Mr. Knight on the idea that we can't just throw money around.

A boatload of liberal program that have not been able to be implemented because of the balance of power, somehow made it to the stimulus package in the name of helping the economy. From health care to light bulbs, money is being spent. When in fact these were all programs that would have been advanced if the economy was doing great. The excuse then would be...."The time for hope is over...and the time to act is now....our economy is greater then ever....& we need to keep this great economy going by supporting(insert earmark/spending program here)".

I'm upset at both parties for the way they spend! Look at your paycheck....thats a lot of money they take out each week for taxes. Maybe if they wouldn't take it out all year long & make you pay it all back at once at the end of the year, it would sink in.

Yes, buses can cost $360,000. In fact, they can cost as much as $800,000. Chicago just ordered a bunch of 60ft articulated hybrid buses at about $850,000 each.

Green Bay Metro is using:

30ft New Flyer low floor - Put in service a few years ago.

40ft Gillig Phantom put in service in the late 1990s.

40ft GMC 'Fishbowls' put in service I am guessing in the 1970s. These are used now mainly for school routes.

40ft TMC RTS put in service in the early 1980s I think all of these have been retired now

These new buses could be used to replace the GMC 'Fishbowls' or to expand service. The GMC's are tanks that can go for a long time. Most buses are designed for a 15 year life span depending on usage as I understand it.

At some point in the next 5 / 10 years, the Gillig Phantoms will need to be replaced too.

Do buses really cost $360,000 each? Maybe, I have no idea, but it does seem like a lot. Are those buses going to improve service? It seems to me that the fundamental problem is the operational costs of the system, and an unwillingness to support meaningful transit. New buses can help somewhat, but I don't see that directly helping the core issue.

I mean, I'm with Puant on the need for transit and all, but I'm with Mr. Knight on the idea that we can't just throw money around.

test

To amplify a bit on what Puant said. The best and maybe only model we have to follow for the current deep recession is the Great Depression. Initially, the response back then was to let the markets correct themselves. It didn't happen (because they couldn't), and the Depression only worsened. What worked ultimately — in consort with some other actions, including banking reform —was a huge injection of federal spending, especially that spent on the military in the late '30s and early '40s in advance of our entry into World War II. That rescued the economy.

I'm a big backer of paying down the national debt. But you do that — as we did in the latter half of the '90s — when times are better, not when the economy is in crisis. What the federal government is doing now is precisely the right remedy, only we need to do more of it.

only we need to do more of it.


Socialism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating public or state ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by economic equality for all individuals, with an egalitarian method of compensation.[1][2] Modern socialism originated in the late 19th-century intellectual and working class political movement that criticized the effects of industrialization and private ownership on society. Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution and would be a long transitional stage between capitalism and communism (the disappearance of class and therefore state

Bullshit. You know, Night Rider, I find some of your posts tiresome. You can't have an honest difference of opinion with people like you without your type resorting to name-calling or character assassination, as you intended by calling me a socialist. I tried to be respectful in my response above. So if that's your game, I'll respond in kind. Go to hell. There's a reason people like you are in the minority today. You had your chance and you fucked up — badly. Just keep driving that car of yours off the cliff in your blind faith to a failed ideology.

Bullshit. You know, Night Rider, I find some of your posts tiresome. You can't have an honest difference of opinion with people like you without your type resorting to name-calling or character assassination, as you intended by calling me a socialist. I tried to be respectful in my response above. So if that's your game, I'll respond in kind. Go to hell. There's a reason people like you are in the minority today. You had your chance and you fucked up — badly. Just keep driving that car of yours off the cliff in your blind faith to a failed ideology.

1st of all, I only defined socialism. I never called you a socialist. I didn't resort to profanities. I never told you to go anywhere. I agree mistakes were made by the party I tend to agree with most. They never had the power that you have now. No matter how much some posts may irritate me I won't sink to your level. If my defining socialism offended you that much, I apologize. I won't apologize for my beliefs.

It's a good thing I didn't define communism.

And what level have I sunk to, dare say? Aren't you the guy who's attacked the mayor here and in Press-Gazette online forums for being short? And something about you attending the State of the City address last week and looking for Schmitt but couldn't find him because he was hidden behind the podium. Real funny. And aren't you the guy who always refers to the mayor as "Squiggy" or something. God knows what else you're up to. Better point that big accusing finger of yours squarely at yourself. Hypocrite.

Knight Rider,

I fail to see why those who support the idea of using government spending to boost the economy and develop our infrastructure which in many cases is really in need of development should be called socialists.

Doing things to build our infrastructure will in the long run help many private businesses.

Remember, the $2.9 million being spent on transit upgrades have to be supplied by private business.

Socialism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating public or state ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by economic equality for all individuals, with an egalitarian method of compensation.[1][2] Modern socialism originated in the late 19th-century intellectual and working class political movement that criticized the effects of industrialization and private ownership on society. Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution and would be a long transitional stage between capitalism and communism (the disappearance of class and therefore state

And what level have I sunk to, dare say? Aren't you the guy who's attacked the mayor here and in Press-Gazette online forums for being short? And something about you attending the State of the City address last week and looking for Schmitt but couldn't find him because he was hidden behind the podium. Real funny. And aren't you the guy who always refers to the mayor as "Squiggy" or something. God knows what else you're up to. Better point that big accusing finger of yours squarely at yourself. Hypocrite.

What the heck are you talking about. I never attacked the mayor in the press gazette. I can barely read the user comments, since they are fairly annoying. I have been tempted to sign up to post there, but I never have. I never commented on anything regarding Schmitt hidden behind any podium (at least I don't think i did). I wasn't at the state of the city address. I do refer to him as "squiggy". Can you at least try to get a few facts correct before ranting.

When you commented on getting sick of my posts, were you referring to these post in the PG also? Is it under a night rider name, I may try to look it up.

Knight Rider,

I fail to see why those who support the idea of using government spending to boost the economy and develop our infrastructure which in many cases is really in need of development should be called socialists.

Doing things to build our infrastructure will in the long run help many private businesses.

Remember, the $2.9 million being spent on transit upgrades have to be supplied by private business.

It's just my opinion that we are heading that direction. I don't think we are quite there yet. I never called anyone a socialist, but if you look at the definition we are creaping up very fast. I do think some spending is wise. But this "stimulous bill" was forced through in the dark of night not giving people a chance to even read it. I just can't swallow that every dollar the gov't spends is going to create long term growth in the economy. Soon there will be carbon tax, increase gas tax....hang on for the ride.

Okay, I apologize for that. Someone last week did make the short joke and referred to the mayor as "Squiggy," as you do, in a post at the Press-Gazette regarding the paper's article on the State of the City address. I just thought it was you. My mistake and I apologize for that. Everything else stands.

So.... how 'bout them Brewers?

Wooweeee!!! Is this a bad time to propose a SkyscraperCity get together?

As for the Great Depression, the reason all hell broke loose and the nation trudged along for years was the untimely choking of the money supply. Curiously the Fed did not pump money into the credit markets to offset the contraction. Even Ben Bernanke has apologized on behalf of the Fed for its role in exacerbating and prolonging the crisis.

If government spending could boost an economy into prosperity the Soviet Union would still be rocking and rolling in Eurasia and Venezuela would be the envy of the Americas. There is definitely a place for nationwide infrastructure improvements (our outdated electric grid for instance is truly putting our nation at risk for a potential disaster) but I don't buy the argument that government reallocation of money can boost an economy. I'm convinced that the free market allocates funds at a much more efficient and much smarter way than a government bureaucracy can. There is a lot of money on the sidelines these days and when deals become too good to pass up, the economy will start running again. We're already seeing institutional money flowing back into the stock market. Hopefully soon it'll start flowing into industrial and commercial projects.

Now I'm not saying that updating buses in the GB Metro is a bad thing or that new buses are not needed. They may very well be a necessary addition. The buses are just a byproduct of a poor strategy of using taxpayer cash to try to jumpstart an economy. If the buses can pay for themselves over a number of years due to better fuel efficiency or lower maintenance costs, I say bring 'em on.

As always, just my :2cents:.

hah! Last place... Cubs are in first!!

I know.. being a Cubs fan is a sickness...

So.... how 'bout them Brewers?

It's just my opinion that we are heading that direction. I don't think we are quite there yet. I never called anyone a socialist, but if you look at the definition we are creaping up very fast. I do think some spending is wise. But this "stimulous bill" was forced through in the dark of night not giving people a chance to even read it. I just can't swallow that every dollar the gov't spends is going to create long term growth in the economy. Soon there will be carbon tax, increase gas tax....hang on for the ride.

I get tired of people using the "socialism" argument when it suits them, but also conveniently ignoring it when it suits them as well.

I pay property taxes every year. A big chunk of that goes toward the school system. Guess what? I don't have kids. So I'm paying to help my neighbors' kids go to school.

I have a serious chunk of my check withheld every month for social security. Paying for the baby-boomers' retirement, as we speak. Guess what? By the time I retire, Social Security will be gone.

These programs have been around forever, yet no one seems to be outraged over these. Yet put the label of economic stimulus on it, & all hell breaks loose.

This isn't your father's Oldsmobile.:ohno:

I just now noticed that the City Deck Cam is up and running........accessed through the City of Green Bay web site...............:banana:

"Socialism" is the new "you need to support the troops" as an accusation thrown at anyone who opposes the "conservative" agenda (I use conservative in quotes because as judged by recent history the "conservative" movement seems to have little to do with actual conservative ideas). In reality, I think a pretty good case can be made that this country is less socialist today than it was at the end of the Reagan administration (Reagan has been made out to be, by today's "conservatives," something I don't think he was). I'd bet that in 4 or 8 years this country will continue to be less socialist than in 1988.

Furthermore, take a look at the standard of living by country, as defined by the UN Human Development Index, which ranks based upon life expectancy, literacy, educational attainment, and GDP per capita:

1. Iceland
2. Norway
3. Canada
4. Australia
5. Ireland
6. Netherlands
7. Sweden
8. Japan
9. Luxembourg
10. Switzerland
11. France
12. Finland
13. Denmark
14. Austria
15. United States

Now, that list is from '08, and I have a sneaking suspicion Iceland may not top the next rankings (though a good case can be made that the fall of the Icelandic economy is much more to do with a lack of regulation in banking than too much). It's also fair to note that many of those countries (particularly the smaller ones) do well because they exist under the defensive shield provided by the US, UK, France, etc. so they spend very little per capita on defense (whereas we spend far too much).

But the point is, each of those countries ahead of us is more socialist than we are ever likely to be, and yet they somehow are doing pretty well. Amazing!

To be clear, not everything they do should or could be translated here, at least not on the federal level (can I get a "state's rights" from the audience). But I think what we can learn is that some blanket mantra like "government is bad" doesn't hold water. Government should be used when and where it can provide value. With things like transportation infrastructure, it is almost incumbent upon government to spend money. Left to it's own devices, heath care has become a complete debacle that will only get worse. I could go on. The point is that it is no more true that "government is bad" than it is that "government is good." Government is an important tool. A healthy debate can be had as to what constitutes good value to the taxpayer, but just throwing around labels is neither productive nor even accurate.

While I tend to be a more conservative guy and do not really agree with most of the comments that have been made on here, I think its obvious that there could be a whole other thread of arguing and we still wouldn't all agree. However, I think its safe to say the one thing we all agree on is that we all want a thriving urban atmosphere in Green Bay. So here is to that one day happening :cheers:

in today's PG online....


Tax credits to help with housing for Port Plaza tenants
BY PAUL SRUBAS • psrubas@greenbaypressgazette.com • April 23, 2009

A little more than $2.5 million in tax credits will help build two new affordable housing developments for the occupants of the Port Plaza Towers, Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt announced today.


The credits are through Wisconsin Housing and Economic Development Authority’s Low-Income Housing Tax Credit Program.

The tax credits will create hundreds of local construction jobs, add tax base to the community and give a shot in the arm to Schmitt’s wishes to see Port Plaza Towers restored as an upscale hotel.

Wisconsin Housing Preservation Corp. of Madison, which currently owns the Port Plaza Towers in downtown Green Bay, estimates the two new housing developments will total approximately $24 million dollars.

Schmitt plans to discuss the details of the plan at an afternoon press conference at the Port Plaza Towers.

He has indicated that he would like to see the eight-story Port Plaza Towers restored as the Northland Hotel, the 300-room facility built in 1923. The building had been converted to assisted-living units in 1979 and has 147 units that normally are at least 90 percent occupied.

The plan rests on the ability to find alternative housing for the occupants of the towers and to find a developer for the hotel. WHEDA’s announcement will mean $2,566,895 in tax credits for a developer that builds the two alternative housing units.

Schmitt predicted it would easy to find a hotel developer. He said he had been approached by two such developers within the last year.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/WI-00117-CHotel-Northland-Green-Bay.jpg

Terrific news! The most important thing is to find good alternative housing for the people who reside at Port Plaza Towers. The second most important thing is to try and restore and upgrade that building to its former glory as the Hotel Northland, once Green Bay's premiere hotel (where visiting NFL teams stayed). Great to hear there may be potential developers in the wings. Hope the city works closely with the Towers' residents for their support and addresses their concerns. I'm thinking this project would be done in conjunction with restoring the street grid so Adams St. can connect with Main St. again (through or under the Main Street parking ramp, as I understand it). Mr. Gorbachev, tear down that mall.

I was just at the press conference and it sounds very good! The biggest thing for the residents will be to have space purpose-build for them. As a converted hotel, the Northland lacks things like wider doors and other handicapped accessible amenities. The two new buildings will be able to address all of these issues. Sounds like the best case is for construction to start on the new buildings by the end of the year, with a 10-12 month construction time. So hopefully then the city can find an interested developer for the Northland in that time. It is also worth noting that the new buildings will be taxed.

I was just at the press conference and it sounds very good! The biggest thing for the residents will be to have space purpose-build for them. As a converted hotel, the Northland lacks things like wider doors and other handicapped accessible amenities. The two new buildings will be able to address all of these issues. Sounds like the best case is for construction to start on the new buildings by the end of the year, with a 10-12 month construction time. So hopefully then the city can find an interested developer for the Northland in that time. It is also worth noting that the new buildings will be taxed.

I know some proposed sites were discussed in the past, but any more detail on the location of these new buildings?

As much as I'm sure the Northland will be beautiful when (if?) completed, I had an...unpleasant....experience in that building & I don't know if I can get past it...

^^ I didn't quite catch the first location they mentioned. The second was on Univ. Ave by Tillman Landscaping.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/default.jpg

Here's an animated flyover of the Highway 41 six-lane upgrade project in Brown County. I think it was produced by Steven Spielberg.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi9dXDM4YCE

.... I think its safe to say the one thing we all agree on is that we all want a thriving urban atmosphere in Green Bay. So here is to that one day happening :cheers:

Right on! I felt kind of guilty for helping to side-track this thread with my earlier post.



As much as I'm sure the Northland will be beautiful when (if?) completed, I had an...unpleasant....experience in that building & I don't know if I can get past it...

OK.........so.......not sure if I should ask you to elaborate or not............

Anyway, is there enough demand for hotel space in the downtown? Would the Northland once again be a 300-room facility?

Check this article out. (http://www.tadfad.com/2009/04/19/rail-and-the-500-mile-flight/) Notice where GB fits in the green circles.

This blog post makes a lot of sense to me. The author could have expanded upon this by reminding his readers what a PAIN it is to drive into large cities like Milwaukee & Chicago with all of the traffic, and then to park, etc.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/default.jpg

Here's an animated flyover of the Highway 41 six-lane upgrade project in Brown County. I think it was produced by Steven Spielberg.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi9dXDM4YCE

I see that WisDOT has improved the plans for US 41 between Mason St and STH 29. In their previous plan (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/us41expansion/docs/brown-us41wis29-int.pdf), the on-ramp from Mason St to US 41 northbound merged with the mainline lanes, and then the two lanes for the STH 29 off-ramp diverged. That's a very short weaving area and would have caused backups into the through lanes. But in the video (around 2:25), they now have a C/D roadway system set up in that area. That's a good improvement and will keep the slowdowns and weaving out of the high-speed through lanes.

Right on! I felt kind of guilty for helping to side-track this thread with my earlier post.



OK.........so.......not sure if I should ask you to elaborate or not............

Anyway, is there enough demand for hotel space in the downtown? Would the Northland once again be a 300-room facility?

well.......years ago I was a paramedic & worked with the medical examiners' office. Someone OD'd in one of those apartments & wasn't found for several weeks. It was my first experience of the kind, so it stuck with me.. :puke:

To your other question, is there a demand.....WAY back when Astor Place was being pitched, Days Inn was also talking about expanding the hotel, I want to say to 12 floors. That obviously never happened, which makes me wonder how much demand there would be. Of course, if/when the KI center is expanded, more conferences should increase the demand..

^^ I didn't quite catch the first location they mentioned. The second was on Univ. Ave by Tillman Landscaping.

I am really pleased with this news. I do however wonder if the locations that they are going to move the residents are the best choices.

Both do not have direct bus access. I am sure the routes can be modified to get them bus access at some point. If so, the bus ride to get to most things like doctors and banks will be long.

The other thing to consider is how quickly paramedics can reach the new buildings and how quickly can they get residents to hospitals. When I operated businesses downtown there were often paramedics at the tower.

Seeing this building restored would be such a great thing!

The Mayor's hope for a luxury hotel along the lines of the Drake or Pfister seem a bit hopeful for a market like Green Bay. But, I think they could realistically bring in a Marriott or Hilton. specifically if they work with them on expanding convention space from the back of the hotel to Main St. then tunnel under Main St. to connect with the KI Center.

As to moving the residents of Port Plaza Towers to the outskirts, I too agree it would be preferable to develope new housing for them closer to the downtown where they have services that could be within a couple of blocks walk. Many Seniors no longer drive and in Green Bay the busses don't run that frequently. Plus doesn't Green Bay want to keep as many people downtown as possible?

TPlus doesn't Green Bay want to keep as many people downtown as possible?

I agree. I was hoping they would have built a 6-10 story building on one of the surface lots downtown and just made the facilities more suited to housing these people. Keeping them downtown and restoring the Hotel would have been a win-win. Oh well, hopefully they will be able to restore the hotel to its glory and get visiting teams staying in Green Bay again instead of everywhere else in NE Wisconsin.

Was there a bar and restaurant in the old Northland Hotel?

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/default.jpg

Here's an animated flyover of the Highway 41 six-lane upgrade project in Brown County. I think it was produced by Steven Spielberg.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi9dXDM4YCE

WOW... nice overview... can't wait for the roundabout haters to start in on it...

I agree. I was hoping they would have built a 6-10 story building on one of the surface lots downtown and just made the facilities more suited to housing these people. Keeping them downtown and restoring the Hotel would have been a win-win. Oh well, hopefully they will be able to restore the hotel to its glory and get visiting teams staying in Green Bay again instead of everywhere else in NE Wisconsin.

1) Is it certain that the residents would be relocated out of the downtown? It sure does seem like a home run to keep these consumers downtown PLUS renovate the Northland Hotel.

2) This will not likely change the fact that NFL teams stay at the Paper Valley Hotel in Appleton. It seems that teams prefer to be in a different town before the game, and the Paper Valley fought hard to prevent the police escort kerfuffle from taking that business away from them a couple of years ago.

I see that WisDOT has improved the plans for US 41 between Mason St and STH 29. In their previous plan (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/us41expansion/docs/brown-us41wis29-int.pdf), the on-ramp from Mason St to US 41 northbound merged with the mainline lanes, and then the two lanes for the STH 29 off-ramp diverged. That's a very short weaving area and would have caused backups into the through lanes. But in the video (around 2:25), they now have a C/D roadway system set up in that area. That's a good improvement and will keep the slowdowns and weaving out of the high-speed through lanes.

In the last rehabilitation of Hwy 41, they replaced the bridges over Larsen Road with what was supposed to the final bridges when this major reconstruction project is done, thus have widenings on the median side which is currently unused, along with the purpose then to add an auxiliary lane on the right side to help with some traffic problems until the major project comes around being the reason the new bridges were built then.

Now with this new plan, they will need to at least modify and/or widen these bridges to make the CD road work.

Broadway-Dousman Shopko Express store gets Main Street award
April 25, 2009
Green Bay Press-Gazette

WAUSAU — The Shopko Express at Broadway and Dousman Street received the Best New Business award Friday night at the Wisconsin Main Street awards program in Wausau.

The pharmacy and retail store was the first urban Shopko Express opened by the company. The store is in On Broadway Inc.'s Larsen Green development. It was selected for the award based on its overall impact on the downtown area.

Also recognized were Sandi Walch of M&I Bank as On Broadway's Volunteer of the Year and Mary Walch as Board Member of the Year.

On Broadway Inc. is a 2009 winner of a Great American Main Street award, which honors the five best downtown development organizations in the nation.

http://www.betterplace.com/our-bold-plan/how-it-works/

Heard about this on NPR........sounds awesome....there may be hope yet!

In the last rehabilitation of Hwy 41, they replaced the bridges over Larsen Road with what was supposed to the final bridges when this major reconstruction project is done, thus have widenings on the median side which is currently unused, along with the purpose then to add an auxiliary lane on the right side to help with some traffic problems until the major project comes around being the reason the new bridges were built then.

Now with this new plan, they will need to at least modify and/or widen these bridges to make the CD road work.

The bridges right now have three lanes, plus two full shoulders and one unused lane, for a total of 6 lanes or 72 feet. The video shows the US 41 mainline having three lanes plus two full shoulders, for 5 lanes or 60 feet. So they may need to cut the bridges back by 12 feet, since likely the C/D roadway will have separate parallel bridges because of elevation needs. So the extra 12 feet may have been wasted a few years ago. (Although it will save a some effort during the upcoming reconstruction because they won't have to build those interiors of the bridge in the median. And they needed to build those outside lanes where they were because shifting the lanes inward on the bridge (to save the outside 12 feet) would have required extensive pavement work on the bridge approaches and unnatural lane shifts.) But if the C/D roadway can just be an extension of the existing bridges, nothing will be lost. From what I understand, widening a bridge is not very difficult and is efficient.

This just in (I think) on the local political front.

Former Green Bay City Council President Chad Fradette, known for sparking a legal controversy that ended up in Federal Court when he erected a Nativity scene above an entrance to City Hall, apparently has moved from Green Bay to the Pulaski area.

This according to informed SkyscraperCity sources who wish to remain anonymous.

MapQuest indicates Fradette's apparent new address is just north of the Village of Pulaski — and the Brown County line — on a road that borders Oconto and Shawano counties. A reporter has been dispatched to the scene.

(Sorry, couldn't help resorting to an old newspaper style.)

This just in (I think) on the local political front.

Former Green Bay City Council President Chad Fradette, known for sparking a legal controversy that ended up in Federal Court when he erected a Nativity scene above an entrance to City Hall, apparently has moved from Green Bay to the Pulaski area.

This according to informed SkyscraperCity sources who wish to remain anonymous.

MapQuest indicates Fradette's apparent new address is just north of the Village of Pulaski — and the Brown County line — on a road that borders Oconto and Shawano counties. A reporter has been dispatched to the scene.

(Sorry, couldn't help resorting to an old newspaper style.)

Yes I can also confirm this... the move was planned since he stepped off council and ran for the regional seat... (Pulaski is still within that district)...they bought some land with a house but did not have the money to update it until they sold their house in town...which I understand happened a couple months ago.

Is this the first official event slated for the CityDeck? Can't wait to attend this event!

From the What's Up Downtown Newsletter:

Downtown Will Be Livin' "La Vida Local" this Fall!
Save the date for the first annual "La Vida Local," a new event coming to downtown Green Bay this October 3rd and 4th on the CityDeck. La Vida Local, (translates to the local life), is a festival celebrating our community's culinary, creative and artistic resources to promote a healthy and sustainable lifestyle. La Vida Local is being produced by Arts Events, Inc., the organization that coordinates Bayfest, Artstreet and
Arti Gras, in partnership with the City of Green Bay and the Sustainable Greater Green Bay Task Force. For more information about Arts Events, Inc., visit www.artseventsinc.com or call 920.435.5220.

Is this the first official event slated for the CityDeck? Can't wait to attend this event!

From the What's Up Downtown Newsletter:

Downtown Will Be Livin' "La Vida Local" this Fall!
Save the date for the first annual "La Vida Local," a new event coming to downtown Green Bay this October 3rd and 4th on the CityDeck. La Vida Local, (translates to the local life), is a festival celebrating our community's culinary, creative and artistic resources to promote a healthy and sustainable lifestyle. La Vida Local is being produced by Arts Events, Inc., the organization that coordinates Bayfest, Artstreet and
Arti Gras, in partnership with the City of Green Bay and the Sustainable Greater Green Bay Task Force. For more information about Arts Events, Inc., visit www.artseventsinc.com or call 920.435.5220.

After talking about City Deck for all these years it's finally getting close. :cheers:
Hopefully it's a nice sunny Autumn day and people come out to enjoy the event. :banana:

It's only a little more than 5 months away.

Are they still working on CityDeck? I drive past and it seems like there is little action. Someone at work said they ran out of money?? Probably just rumor.

Are they still working on CityDeck? I drive past and it seems like there is little action. Someone at work said they ran out of money?? Probably just rumor.

There were workers at the site today. I would admit though that progress does seem slow. It looks like there is a lot of footing work that needed to be done before we could see some results.

In any regards, the money for that portion of CityDeck is already secured.

Not sure if it was posted here and I missed it... but the Packers did offer up the Stadium for the hosting of some exhibition soccer games around the World Cup events...

not sure how they get around the problem of field sizes... I thought someone here posted that the field is too narrow??

Does anyone else have trouble getting the CITY DECK CAM to work? I've only gotten it open a very few times the last couple of days..........what gives?..........most of the time I just get the Java Coffee Cup and nothing else.....................:ohno:

Anyway, is there enough demand for hotel space in the downtown? Would the Northland once again be a 300-room facility?

By today's standards, I think at least some of the rooms as originally configured in the Northland might be considered small for an upscale facility. I used to live there for awhile when it was still a hotel, and certainly room standards were different when it was built. So my uneducated guess is that any eventual new hotel at Port Plaza Towers would have fewer rooms. Perhaps half as many as the Northland?????

Was there a bar and restaurant in the old Northland Hotel?

At least in later years, I recall a lounge on the first floor at the corner of Adams and Pine. A restaurant may have been in the basement. Maybe. I do remember there was a shoeshine in the basement. The hotel also had a beautiful lobby with chandeliers and decorative woodwork. There also was a ballroom on the first floor, the Walnut Room??? Artstreet used the Walnut Room its first year for piano concerts. I should take a walk over there again some time.

Not sure if it was posted here and I missed it... but the Packers did offer up the Stadium for the hosting of some exhibition soccer games around the World Cup events...

not sure how they get around the problem of field sizes... I thought someone here posted that the field is too narrow??

As explained in the Press-Gazette, the field is indeed too narrow for soccer. So no regular World Cup games could be played there. But they could host exhibition matches, the paper said.

Does anyone else have trouble getting the CITY DECK CAM to work? I've only gotten it open a very few times the last couple of days..........what gives?..........most of the time I just get the Java Coffee Cup and nothing else.....................:ohno:

I, too, have had this issue. Not the most reliable webcam, and you can't see much when it is working anyway.

By today's standards, I think at least some of the rooms as originally configured in the Northland might be considered small for an upscale facility. I used to live there for awhile when it was still a hotel, and certainly room standards were different when it was built. So my uneducated guess is that any eventual new hotel at Port Plaza Towers would have fewer rooms. Perhaps half as many as the Northland?????

I have not seen the rooms myself, so I can't comment on how big they are. I have stayed at the Palmer House Hilton in Chicago (Thank you, Priceline), which I think is a model for what the Northland could be (though on a smaller scale, of course). The room I stayed at in the Palmer House wasn't big at all. Smaller than your typical Super-8 or whatever. What made it nice was the quality of the furniture, bedding, etc. I'd imagine, again without knowing, that rooms at the Northland could be brought to that standard. Then some rooms would probably be enlarged into premium rooms and suites. But my experience with the couple of older, 4-star places that I've Pricelined is that the rooms aren't big at all.

At least in later years, I recall a lounge on the first floor at the corner of Adams and Pine. A restaurant may have been in the basement. Maybe. I do remember there was a shoeshine in the basement. The hotel also had a beautiful lobby with chandeliers and decorative woodwork. There also was a ballroom on the first floor, the Walnut Room??? Artstreet used the Walnut Room its first year for piano concerts. I should take a walk over there again some time.

The good news is that the lobby and ballroom are largely intact. So those areas could be brought up to standard "easily." You would think that if they wanted to be 3 or 4 star (which I think is at least somewhat of a relative term here) they would need at least a kitchen for room service and breakfasts. I'd also imagine that the space on Pine/Adams would be some sort of lounge or dining... boy would it be great to see that corner activated such.

The good news is that the lobby and ballroom are largely intact. So those areas could be brought up to standard "easily." You would think that if they wanted to be 3 or 4 star (which I think is at least somewhat of a relative term here) they would need at least a kitchen for room service and breakfasts. I'd also imagine that the space on Pine/Adams would be some sort of lounge or dining... boy would it be great to see that corner activated such.

Having done some past things in/around the corner space... It is currently configured as a salon and tanning retail space. There is a large central desk and beautician's work stations around the walls with the walls (and therefore the windowspace) covered by individual tanning booths. I'm sure with a little work it could be changed into a lounge space...esp as there is good water and sewer hookups as the salon needed that available.

There are doors off the main entry as well as the door on the corner. I would also assume they would reopen the windows currently covered by the tanning booths to attract people passing.

The Northland as an upscale hotel would be very cool. Especially if they aimed at a 3.5 to 4.0 market niche. I would look to how well the Cambria Suites or aloft will do for good examples of the need. Since the Cambria and aloft are located closer to Lambeau, I'm sure they will get the upscale, Chicago, Philadelphia or New York fans following their teams away games. They also attract business travelers who are heading to Ashwaubenon or even I-43 (once 172 is done) based businesses.

With the Northland being right downtown, this would be the perfect spot for businesses like the banks who are downtown. Northland's competition would be Holiday Inn and Hotel Sierra's upper floors and St Brenen's Inn (sp?)

Will be interesting... I also would voice the opinion that we need to see if the residents can be kept downtown or close to downtown.

Having done some past things in/around the corner space... It is currently configured as a salon and tanning retail space. There is a large central desk and beautician's work stations around the walls with the walls (and therefore the windowspace) covered by individual tanning booths. I'm sure with a little work it could be changed into a lounge space...esp as there is good water and sewer hookups as the salon needed that available.

There are doors off the main entry as well as the door on the corner. I would also assume they would reopen the windows currently covered by the tanning booths to attract people passing.

Opening up the windows is VERY important, IMO.


The Northland as an upscale hotel would be very cool. Especially if they aimed at a 3.5 to 4.0 market niche. I would look to how well the Cambria Suites or aloft will do for good examples of the need. Since the Cambria and aloft are located closer to Lambeau, I'm sure they will get the upscale, Chicago, Philadelphia or New York fans following their teams away games. They also attract business travelers who are heading to Ashwaubenon or even I-43 (once 172 is done) based businesses.

The Northland / PPT site would GREATLY, GREATLY (did I emphazize "GREATLY" enough) benefit from a restored street grid, particularly Adams St. , to restore the connections to the convention center, Main St, etc.

Will be interesting... I also would voice the opinion that we need to see if the residents can be kept downtown or close to downtown.

I'll second that opinion of keeping the residents of Port Plaza Towers downtown. The 500 block S. Adams St might be a good place for a new residential development. The Fox River Trail and the sidewalk over the Tillman bridge is right there, bus routes are close by, convenience store and A&W 2 blocks away, St John's Park, and the fire department is right across the street. Did I miss anything? Oh yeah, it's pedestrian-friendly (light auto traffic.)

What does everybody think?

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww359/GB-Pix/500SAdams.jpg

Navarino-
I think this area could be really something, someday.
This site you highlighted could certainly stand some renewed purpose.
Just across Adams St from here, you have the old fire station. Someday that could make a really cool bar or something, should the fire dept ever move out. Not that I want them to move out---I like that this is the oldest station in the city--- I just think it's inevitable. Anyway... Just north of that (north of Chicago St) we've kicked around ideas on this forum in the past, like unique urban row-house type developments here. AAAAHHH!!! ROW HOUSES IN GREEN BAY!!!! CRAZY CRAZY IDEA!!!! .....but, I can see it...it would fit a niche market. Of course we're just dreaming again. What the hell is the matter with us?

the old fire station. Someday that could make a really cool bar or something, should the fire dept ever move out. Not that I want them to move out---I like that this is the oldest station in the city--- I just think it's inevitable.

I could see a place called Firehouse Pizzeria and Flamin' Wings in that building. There's a historical marker at the point there where Wash. and Adams streets meet that marks the location of the original St. John church. The first Catholic church in Wisconsin. The Downtown Design Plan you talked about on your blog shows a cultural marker.


Anyway... Just north of that (north of Chicago St) we've kicked around ideas on this forum in the past, like unique urban row-house type developments here. AAAAHHH!!! ROW HOUSES IN GREEN BAY!!!! CRAZY CRAZY IDEA!!!! .....but, I can see it...it would fit a niche market. Of course we're just dreaming again. What the hell is the matter with us?

I remember the talk about the row houses and I like the idea because I think that row-houses fit the area's personality of humble beginnings. They're not big and flashy.

I'll second that opinion of keeping the residents of Port Plaza Towers downtown. The 500 block S. Adams St might be a good place for a new residential development. The Fox River Trail and the sidewalk over the Tillman bridge is right there, bus routes are close by, convenience store and A&W 2 blocks away, St John's Park, and the fire department is right across the street. Did I miss anything? Oh yeah, it's pedestrian-friendly (light auto traffic.)

What does everybody think?

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww359/GB-Pix/500SAdams.jpg

what's on that site now?

what's on that site now?

The building on the corner is vacant/for lease and the other building is I believe an adult group home. I think it may be run by Lutheran Family Services.

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww359/GB-Pix/500SAdams01.jpg

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww359/GB-Pix/500SAdams02.jpg

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww359/GB-Pix/500SAdams03.jpg

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww359/GB-Pix/500SAdams04.jpg



I was wrong, first church in Green Bay, not Wisconsin.

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww359/GB-Pix/CulturalMarker.jpg

The Northland / PPT site would GREATLY, GREATLY (did I emphazize "GREATLY" enough) benefit from a restored street grid, particularly Adams St. , to restore the connections to the convention center, Main St, etc.

No, you did not emphasize it enough. I'll help:

GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY

It's a start.

I'll second that opinion of keeping the residents of Port Plaza Towers downtown. The 500 block S. Adams St might be a good place for a new residential development. The Fox River Trail and the sidewalk over the Tillman bridge is right there, bus routes are close by, convenience store and A&W 2 blocks away, St John's Park, and the fire department is right across the street. Did I miss anything? Oh yeah, it's pedestrian-friendly (light auto traffic.)

What does everybody think?

I don't think it's a matter of keeping them downtown, as such. I don't know what would suit the needs and desires the best. Perhaps the residents were polled about where they'd enjoy living. It would seem that a downtown location would be more expensive to build, which is a consideration, certainly if they had to take down any existing buildings. Costs aside, and assuming that a number of residents enjoy being downtown, it seems to me that a good option would be to have two locations, with one downtown and one out on the Univ. Ave. site. This would give residents options about the environment they wish to live in, which would seem to be in everybody's interests.

How about refurbishing the mental health center and let them stay there?

How about refurbishing the mental health center and let them stay there?

ever been in that building? I have (not as a patient, though:lol:). it's a creeeeeeeeeeepy place. I wouldn't want to live there.

As to the other comment about the locations for the people living at PP Tower now. How do I put this delicately? The new locations that they have selected are kind of...well...ghetto-y. I could be dead wrong, but it sort of smells like "we're trying to make downtown nice so let's get rid of the riff-raff & move them to an area that's already bad". Am I over-thinking it?

No. I don't think you are over-thinking it. I would love to see a restored Northland Hotel - but I think you have to be very cautious with moving people.

What exactly are the stipulations, or conditions, under which people can live in there currently? Or are there any?

No. I don't think you are over-thinking it. I would love to see a restored Northland Hotel - but I think you have to be very cautious with moving people.

What exactly are the stipulations, or conditions, under which people can live in there currently? Or are there any?

the other, even more basic thing that doesn't seem to make sense to me.. "we" want to create an urban environment with a good density. So you move people OUT? I don't exactly think that addition by subtraction works in this case..

The majority of the residents from my understanding are either elderly or persons on disability. From the Press Gazette article last week:

"Wisconsin Housing Preservation Corp. of Madison, which currently owns the Port Plaza Towers in downtown Green Bay"

and I believe the city or another group is contracted to help run the building. I thought at one point back when I was doing some stuff in the building...the people who ran/owned the Bellin were involved in this building too.

At a minimum the city or developer would pay to relocate the residents. I would think about half of the 147 units are occupied by persons without their own cars. These folks could be relocated into upcoming vacancies in Monroe Plaza and any new downtown complex.

I disagree slightly that it is too costly to build senior or disabled housing downtown. For a good mix of socio-economic stata, they are needed to be in the downtown areas. This is why WHEDA is giving them tax credits - (also why other developments in the downtown area - the Flats etc have gotten credits to do "sliding scale" leases)

I would also expect that when removated they would have between 147 (the current number) and 200 rooms - I doubt people would all want to stay in the small original rooms to get back to the original 300 rooms.

I agree the street grid would be good but the only street I think they can put back in is Adams St - Pine street would run right through the Bay Lake Building.

On a side note... have you seen the traffic lights that they are looking at removing in the downtown areas (as well as a few outside the downtown area) ? First the one ways were removed now the traffic lights...what will we do? hehehe

Also the two story building on Adams is a group home for adults. Not sure who runs it. But another complex next door might be a good fit.

♫ Hooray ♫♪ Hooray♪♫ It's the First of May♪♫ City Deck is on the Way♫♪

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww359/GB-Pix/CityDeck5-1-09.jpg

On a side note... have you seen the traffic lights that they are looking at removing in the downtown areas (as well as a few outside the downtown area) ? First the one ways were removed now the traffic lights...what will we do? hehehe



I was driving down Madison St. and all the lights were blinking red, my first thought was "Oh no, they're gonna put in 4-way stops signs at every corner." (Which was only two.) If it reduces the City's electric bill, it might be a good thing. Conserve and save.

Back to the restoring the street grid, I found an example of center street parking in the animation walk-thru video (http://www.thebrewerymke.com/videos/video4/index.htm) for the Pabst development in Milwaukee. I'm wondering if something like that might be an option. Probably not because of snow-pile issues. But I like the idea of trees in the middle of the street instead of growing right up against the face of a building.

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww359/GB-Pix/CenterStreetParking.jpg

what's on that site now?

The more I think about it, this site could be a good one for the PPT resident relocation. MOre on tis below.

No, you did not emphasize it enough. I'll help:

GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY

It's a start.


One more: GREATLY!!!

Any word on whether "stimulus" money can be used to TEAR DOWN THAT MALL?!

ever been in that building? I have (not as a patient, though:lol:). it's a creeeeeeeeeeepy place. I wouldn't want to live there.

As to the other comment about the locations for the people living at PP Tower now. How do I put this delicately? The new locations that they have selected are kind of...well...ghetto-y. I could be dead wrong, but it sort of smells like "we're trying to make downtown nice so let's get rid of the riff-raff & move them to an area that's already bad". Am I over-thinking it?

Not at all. I think that site mentioned above (the intersection of S. Washington, S. Adams, Chicago St, Mason) is a good site..I've blogged about the quality of the adjacent St Johns campus (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2008/02/st-john-historic-district-well.html)...there's also the waterfront nearby. This area could easily become something good again If the PPT residents could be moved here, it could turn out better than All Right .


I agree the street grid would be good but the only street I think they can put back in is Adams St - Pine street would run right through the Bay Lake Building.
.

At this point, something like this might be doable:

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/20071126downtown_street_Grid_Parkin.jpg

Razing the mall, re-building Adams St and the new street (Flatley Way? Navarino Way?) opens up a lot of opportunity for small-mid-and even large business as you see above.

Good to see you back, Night Rider. Two thoughts.

1. I too like the idea of restoring the Northland AND keeping the existing residents of Port Plaza Towers at another location in the downtown area. The more apartments and condos downtown, the better. As someone said, it's a win-win.

2. My nominee for the most intrusive occupied building downtown is the Baylake Bank Center. I greatly appreciate the big bucks Baylake invested in this building ($ millions?), and that hundreds and hundreds of people are employed there by the bank, the call center located in the building and the restaurant(s). All of that is a huge contribution to the downtown.

But the Baylake center and its adjoining parking lot are another Berlin Wall, breaking up Pine Street and the central street grid. And, with all due respect, the building's exterior is just plain ugly. (It never was attractive, even as The Boston Store.) Too bad the bank couldn't have built a handsome, vertically oriented building on property where the mall now stands, and then Pine Street could have been reopened to the now-in-revival N. Washington Street. Maybe some day.

Puant, looking at your render got me thinking about the T. Wall proposal again. I know that the public was never shown a detailed view of what exactly the proposal was, but I recall someone on this forum had insider information on it and commented that it was very promising. Also, when I heard the mayor speak about a year ago he seemed very confident that the T. Wall proposal was high quality and that they had done very good work in the past. So, I guess my question is: Does anyone know if that proposal is alive at all anymore? And if it is, will we be hearing about it again soon??

That's a good question. My impression is that T. Wall had put the project on hold to wait and see what happened with the River Center. Now that that's underway (allegedly), it'll be interesting to see what happens. There were some proposals for Sites 1 and 4 too that were on hold too.

Not to sound too negative, but the economy is still pretty weak, it might be improving somewhat, but lending is no where it was a year ago. Look at all the hoops it took to get the Rivercenter errr Watermark back on track. I would imagine that if somehow the city was to land some stimulus money, things might make more sense, but the retail and commercial market is weak.

I hope to see some activity on the childrens museum soon, my Building for Kids membership is up in August and I would rather not renew.

Just stumbled upon this. Very intersting check it out T.Wall link (http://www.twallproperties.com/index.asp?menuID=218&firstlevelmenuID=218)

Good to see you back, Night Rider. Two thoughts.

1. I too like the idea of restoring the Northland AND keeping the existing residents of Port Plaza Towers at another location in the downtown area. The more apartments and condos downtown, the better. As someone said, it's a win-win.

2. My nominee for the most intrusive occupied building downtown is the Baylake Bank Center. I greatly appreciate the big bucks Baylake invested in this building ($ millions?), and that hundreds and hundreds of people are employed there by the bank, the call center located in the building and the restaurant(s). All of that is a huge contribution to the downtown.

But the Baylake center and its adjoining parking lot are another Berlin Wall, breaking up Pine Street and the central street grid. And, with all due respect, the building's exterior is just plain ugly. (It never was attractive, even as The Boston Store.) Too bad the bank couldn't have built a handsome, vertically oriented building on property where the mall now stands, and then Pine Street could have been reopened to the now-in-revival N. Washington Street. Maybe some day.

Yyyyyup. I agree. Totally.

Does anyone know that the city didn't try to keep the residents downtown? There seems to be a presumption that the residents must want to stay and are being made to leave, or the the city isn't interested in having them downtown. Maybe so, but I don't know that either of these things are true. It could also be that the management company and the residents chose their new locations for a variety of reasons, and will be happy there.

I have no idea at all. But just because I or anyone else wants people to live downtown does not mean that everyone will view downtown as the best place to live.

Does anyone know that the city didn't try to keep the residents downtown? There seems to be a presumption that the residents must want to stay and are being made to leave, or the the city isn't interested in having them downtown. Maybe so, but I don't know that either of these things are true. It could also be that the management company and the residents chose their new locations for a variety of reasons, and will be happy there.

I have no idea at all. But just because I or anyone else wants people to live downtown does not mean that everyone will view downtown as the best place to live.

It might be that we are being presumptuous in PPT residents' desires to be downtown. The may have been polled and it was found that they want more green space around their living quarters so that they can sit outside and talk with family and friends. I remember when I was a little kid in the '70s, my grandparents lived at Mason Manor and there was nowhere to sit and visit other than their tiny one bedroom apartment.

With Port Plaza dead, now we can focus on demolishing that eyesore, and focusing our efforts on developing that site, and the area surrounding it. I don't think retail should be absent. We need all kinds of shops, restaurants, offices, and other businesses lining the streets. It would also be nice to have more tourist attractions in our town to bring in more money. I would like to see more people visit our city. Let's hope that they attract some developers to our city that will build something that will generate money from tourism, like an aquarium, for example. We have a few tourist attractions already, like a few museums, an amusement park, a zoo, some stadiums/arenas, some shopping malls, and a convention center. If they were to build an aquarium in our area, we would be the envy of our neighboring cities, if we haven't been already.

I am also in favor of redeveloping East Town Mall on the east side of Green Bay, as it would help bring in some more business to that mall. The budget cinema also does quite a bit of that, but I think with its new look that's being planned, maybe East Town will benefit even more.

I am also in favor of redeveloping Military Avenue (no roundabouts PLEASE!!!) I think that they should make Military Avenue look more like a boulevard, with traffic light or four-way stops at all intersections. I would also like to see ShopKo store #001 remodeling/expanding their Military Avenue location to its current award-winning upscale look and filling the former Jubilee Foods, which shared the other half of the ShopKo building, from its days as SureWay, until 2004. I personally think they should fill it with another grocery store, considering that area lacks a full grocery store, seeing that Cub left the area last March. Filling the Cub Food space would be a great opportunity for a new business to enter Green Bay, considering that it is on a prominent corner of an intersection. I think they should split the building up and lease part of it to Big Lots. Or, if nobody purchases the vacant property, maybe they should tear it down, and build another strip mall on that corner.

I am also in favor of redeveloping Military Avenue (no roundabouts PLEASE!!!) I think that they should make Military Avenue look more like a boulevard, with traffic light or four-way stops at all intersections. I would also like to see ShopKo store #001 remodeling/expanding their Military Avenue location to its current award-winning upscale look and filling the former Jubilee Foods, which shared the other half of the ShopKo building, from its days as SureWay, until 2004. I personally think they should fill it with another grocery store, considering that area lacks a full grocery store, seeing that Cub left the area last March. Filling the Cub Food space would be a great opportunity for a new business to enter Green Bay, considering that it is on a prominent corner of an intersection. I think they should split the building up and lease part of it to Big Lots. Or, if nobody purchases the vacant property, maybe they should tear it down, and build another strip mall on that corner.

:wtf: Are you serious????

:puke:

Where, in Green Bay, would be the best place to organize a huge, anti-Favre, Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year magazine burning?

Lambeau

:wtf: Are you serious????

:puke:

That IS what's going to happen. I used to shop at Cub occasionally, because it was very close to work. Not the greatest store in the world, but they had good prices. They closed for a reason. If they couldn't turn a profit, I dont' see how another store would. I think there's only one chance for a grocery store--Copps. Over the last year or 2, I heard a couple things--first is that they wanted to build one of their new style stores (like main st on the east side) where Ponderosa is now--apparently a deal was in the works for that plot along with the old van boxtel auto credit space behind. It doesn't seem like enough space to me, & I've never heard more. The Cub space could be an alternative.

The other, that is confirmed, is that they plan to build on site across from fleet farm west. That is happening, so who knows if they are doing both.

I think "strip mall" gets a bad rap. I think of something like Bay Park did on the site where JC Penny is now. There are a series of strips, but the way it's set up, it's not bad. Something like that, including some restaurants, could be a reasonable space.

GB Sponge- Sorry for the rant. I hear what you are saying, but dont agree with some of you points.

I for one really dispise traffic lights, especially ones that operate when not needed - however I dont think that Military is a great spot for Roundabouts. Another thing that really bothered me is the "strip mall" comment. That street is already lined with maybe the worst configuration of a walkable environment.

And I agree Jerky that "Strip mall" by definition doesn't have to be bad, and the Village at Baypark is pretty decent.

And I guess finally my overall digust for the whole west side contributed to rant. Sorry Again...

BTW when did that Chilies open?

BTW when did that Chilies open?

I think in September or October?

I think in September or October?
It replaced Hansen's Deli.

I know there are few locations left in the Green Bay area:

Green Bay West: Mather/Gray St.
Green Bay East: E. Mason St.
Allouez: Webster Ave.
Howard (seasonal): Velp Ave. (next to McDonald's and CVS)

That IS what's going to happen. I used to shop at Cub occasionally, because it was very close to work. Not the greatest store in the world, but they had good prices. They closed for a reason. If they couldn't turn a profit, I dont' see how another store would. I think there's only one chance for a grocery store--Copps. Over the last year or 2, I heard a couple things--first is that they wanted to build one of their new style stores (like main st on the east side) where Ponderosa is now--apparently a deal was in the works for that plot along with the old van boxtel auto credit space behind. It doesn't seem like enough space to me, & I've never heard more. The Cub space could be an alternative.

The other, that is confirmed, is that they plan to build on site across from fleet farm west. That is happening, so who knows if they are doing both.

I think "strip mall" gets a bad rap. I think of something like Bay Park did on the site where JC Penny is now. There are a series of strips, but the way it's set up, it's not bad. Something like that, including some restaurants, could be a reasonable space.

I am also in favor of a new supermarket coming to the area. Maybe a Kroger or Trader Joe's would fill that niche, and be the perfect strip mall anchor. I just wish ALDI would move into the vacant Jubilee next door to ShopKo. There's has to be something to fill that empty space, even if ShopKo decides for themselves to go into the grocery store business (a ShopKo Hypermarket would be nice). I would like for the Military/Mason intersection to be fixed, so that bikes, pedestrians, and cars can cross safely. Where they are building that strip mall that you are mentioning, is where the abandoned Tom's Drive-In Restaurant (originally a Hardee's until 1996) currently sits, next to the BP Station on Shawano Avenue.

Could we maybe replace the vilified term "strip mall" to an autocentric single point destination???

It would make me feel better...

I am also in favor of a new supermarket coming to the area. Maybe a Kroger or Trader Joe's would fill that niche, and be the perfect strip mall anchor. I just wish ALDI would move into the vacant Jubilee next door to ShopKo. There's has to be something to fill that empty space, even if ShopKo decides for themselves to go into the grocery store business (a ShopKo Hypermarket would be nice). I would like for the Military/Mason intersection to be fixed, so that bikes, pedestrians, and cars can cross safely. Where they are building that strip mall that you are mentioning, is where the abandoned Tom's Drive-In Restaurant (originally a Hardee's until 1996) currently sits, next to the BP Station on Shawano Avenue.

I dont really envision an outside supermarket entering this region. The existing supply chains (supervalue/roundys/walmart) are well established and we are far enough off the beaten path to put us on the radar of any other chains.

I'm not all that familiar with the west side and grocery but isn't there an Aldi on Military and Western?

On another tangent... I had never been into the Aldi by the ShopKo - East Town until our beloved Cub Food closed their doors a few months ago. I have been surprised on the low cost of everyday items and the ease of access to the store.

And finally- to whomever is developing the land at 41 and 29. Get out of you car and wait for a southwest wind... man does it stink over there- Thanks AniMax. They could built an IKEA there it would surely fail based soley on the distint sence of smell that my wife posses and the constant complaing.:lol:

I dont really envision an outside supermarket entering this region. The existing supply chains (supervalue/roundys/walmart) are well established and we are far enough off the beaten path to put us on the radar of any other chains.

I'm not all that familiar with the west side and grocery but isn't there an Aldi on Military and Western?

On another tangent... I had never been into the Aldi by the ShopKo - East Town until our beloved Cub Food closed their doors a few months ago. I have been surprised on the low cost of everyday items and the ease of access to the store.

And finally- to whomever is developing the land at 41 and 29. Get out of you car and wait for a southwest wind... man does it stink over there- Thanks AniMax. They could built an IKEA there it would surely fail based soley on the distint sence of smell that my wife posses and the constant complaing.:lol:
Yes, there is an ALDI on Military Ave. We have other grocery stores and supermarkets in town, like Festival, Copps, and Piggly Wiggly, they could use one on that intersection. And a better term for 'strip mall' is 'mini-mall'.

On a side note, the nearest Trader Joe's Supermarket is located in Madison.

It replaced Hansen's Deli.

I know there are few locations left in the Green Bay area:

Green Bay West: Mather/Gray St.
Green Bay East: E. Mason St.
Allouez: Webster Ave.
Howard (seasonal): Velp Ave. (next to McDonald's and CVS)
I always remembered that as Hansen's Dairy.

If it is known more as a deli now, that could be a factor to why most of the stores closed.

I dont really envision an outside supermarket entering this region. The existing supply chains (supervalue/roundys/walmart) are well established and we are far enough off the beaten path to put us on the radar of any other chains.

I'm not all that familiar with the west side and grocery but isn't there an Aldi on Military and Western?

On another tangent... I had never been into the Aldi by the ShopKo - East Town until our beloved Cub Food closed their doors a few months ago. I have been surprised on the low cost of everyday items and the ease of access to the store.

And finally- to whomever is developing the land at 41 and 29. Get out of you car and wait for a southwest wind... man does it stink over there- Thanks AniMax. They could built an IKEA there it would surely fail based soley on the distint sence of smell that my wife posses and the constant complaing.:lol:

no, no, no.. There's no such company as Animax. They changed the name to SANimax a couple years ago. Now....apparently....it's "sanitary"? That MUST make it stink less...

My wife & I were looking at a lot in a new subdivision by woodman's. Lots were nice & reasonably priced. We were about to pull the trigger on it-went back a different evening to look & "aroma" almost knocked us over. Needless to say,we didn't buy...

On a side note, the nearest Trader Joe's Supermarket is located in Madison.

There is also one at Bay Shore mall in the northern Milwaukee suburb of Glendale.

I have a question...

While shopping at a "strip mall" do you tend to venture to another store in the same strip mall? I was thinking back and I dont think I have ever went to more then one store at any "mini mall" and I think if I would that I would probally drive and not walk beause of the risk you would have to take walking, so why not just arrange the builings all scattered apart with asphalt fully surronding????

I think that the basic design is flawed.

For those who have been to Bay Shore mall, what are your thoughts on the redesign???

Bayshore should have left those inside narrow roads CLOSED to 4-wheelers and open to silent electric buses and the horse carriages and pedestrians.

I have a question...

While shopping at a "strip mall" do you tend to venture to another store in the same strip mall? I was thinking back and I dont think I have ever went to more then one store at any "mini mall" and I think if I would that I would probally drive and not walk beause of the risk you would have to take walking, so why not just arrange the builings all scattered apart with asphalt fully surronding????

I think that the basic design is flawed.

For those who have been to Bay Shore mall, what are your thoughts on the redesign???

personally....yes. We go to sears occasionally & will walk over to office depot or tj maxx. If there were more stores worth visiting, then we'd probably walk around more. Obviously, we're more likely to do it when the weather is good. That is one of the obstacles I think we face here.

I was in santa barbara over the winter. They have several indoor/outdoor malls, which were really neat--stores on the street side, but you can walk in & find an outdoor courtyard, with more stores. Basically like a mall with no roof. Very interesting, but it wouldn't work here in December.

I think the other thing that a plan like the villages (is that what they're called?) at baypark offers is flexibility. It could be developed over time. Especially right now, no one is going to over-extend by building a huge facility & hoping it fills up. With multiple buildings, they can be built as needed. I think that may speed up the development, rather than (ahem...astor place) having a big over-blown plan that never comes to fruition.

I've also seen some 2 story "strip malls", with escalators & covered walkways. Something like this could work, in my mind. It would reduce the distance between shops, which might make people more interested in walking from place to place, & it would at least shelter from the elements a little bit.

^^Sorry, Jerky, but I think you might be thinking of the wrong mall. Bayshore Town Center has a Sears, but no TJ Maxx or Office Depot. It is filled mostly with upscale retailers like Banana Republic, J Crew, Johnston & Murphy, Ann Taylor Loft and that ilk. Here's the website: http://www.bayshoretowncenter.com/

It is in fact an outdoor town center/mall with no roof similar to the one you had mentioned you visited in Santa Barbara. Its been successful here in Milwaukee, so I can't imagine that GB would have a problem making one successful in theory. I'm not sure there is demand for another major mall in GB though. I guess that's a different discussion.

I always remembered that as Hansen's Dairy.

If it is known more as a deli now, that could be a factor to why most of the stores closed.
I meant to say that it was Hansen's Dairy & Deli.

MarqKev, I believe Jerky's response was to the first question presented by GBSurveyor:

While shopping at a "strip mall" do you tend to venture to another store in the same strip mall?

...stating that he does venture to more than one store in a strip mall.

GBSurveyor: "I was thinking back and I dont think I have ever went to more then one store at any "mini mall" and I think if I would that I would probally drive and not walk beause of the risk you would have to take walking"


Because of What risk? Freezing to death? Getting mugged? I can't imagine that there is really anything that "risky" about walking between stores at a strip mall in Green Bay --- or am I wrong?

I second GarfieldPark. Perhaps it's just me but I think thered'd be more "risk" driving than there would be walking.

GBSurveyor: "I was thinking back and I dont think I have ever went to more then one store at any "mini mall" and I think if I would that I would probally drive and not walk beause of the risk you would have to take walking"


Because of What risk? Freezing to death? Getting mugged? I can't imagine that there is really anything that "risky" about walking between stores at a strip mall in Green Bay --- or am I wrong?

the risk I was referring to was getting run over, if you are familiar with this wonderful area, pedestrians take a back seat to everything. Maybe I am more conscious of it now that I also have kids to watch out for. If you enjoy walking across parking lots dodging people who seem to think they are the only ones around then maybe its not that bad.

Maybe I am being a bit too negative, but for one, I think that I should have the right to walk without getting harassed for it.

This problem doesn't just apply to the "mini-mall" debate, in fact walking anywhere that was built post 1970 really sucks, I think that the design was to remove the sidewalks in order to squeeze out one more parking spot...

MarqKev, I believe Jerky's response was to the first question presented by GBSurveyor:



...stating that he does venture to more than one store in a strip mall.

yep, that' what i meant...:)

Shoreline Redevelopment Plan Picks Up Steam

Updated: May 7, 2009 05:44 PM
Fox Shoreline Redevelopment Becoming Reality

By Jeff Alexander

After more than a decade of discussions, efforts to redevelop the shoreline along the lower Fox River and the bay of Green Bay are picking up steam. A master plan could be in place within 12 months.

The Fox River has seen its share of work over the years, says Brown County senior planner Aaron Schuette.

"One hundred years or more, 200 years, it really was a heavily-used industrial river, and I think we see some of the results of that right now with the PCB clean-up," Schuette says.

Starting this month, a number of communities will join together and hold monthly meetings to create a new vision for the river beyond shipping.

"City of Green Bay, key player; Village of Allouez; Village of Ashwaubenon; City of De Pere; Brown County; Port of Green Bay."

State and federal agencies will also be involved.

The shoreline area to be considered for economic redevelopment and environmental improvements is both sides of the Fox River from De Pere to the mouth and the lower bay.

Schuette says the timing is perfect.

"There's a lot of activity, a lot of momentum right now, downtown Green Bay, downtown De Pere, Ashwaubenon, as well as along Green Bay with Bay Beach getting going again, expansion there," he says.

De Pere Planning Director Ken Pabich says, "The city right now is working on a new downtown master plan so this project fits in perfect with what we're trying to accomplish for the downtown and along the Fox River."

Schuette wants a master plan in place within a year.

"It's such an asset that other communities, whether it's the river or the bay shore, would kill for. This is something we have right at our doorstep, and if we can take better advantage of it and use it to build our economy, all the better."



Hopefully they develop the mouth of the river to have condos & shops.

Originally Posted by MattGiguere
MarqKev, I believe Jerky's response was to the first question presented by GBSurveyor:



...stating that he does venture to more than one store in a strip mall.

yep, that' what i meant...

Whoops, my mistake. Sorry about that.:)

I am wondering with everyone's views are on green bay clinics building new buildings in lightly populated areas and moving services to the new buildings?

A while ago, we had a doctor for our children we liked who was easy to get to. We were then told he was moving to the (at the time new) East De Pere Prevea site and now my doctor who I really like has moved from downtown to the new Bellin center in Bellevue.

I am guessing for most people who drive this is not a big deal. For me, it means finding a new doctor each time due to the fact that there is no bus access to these sites.

Thoughts?

the risk I was referring to was getting run over, if you are familiar with this wonderful area, pedestrians take a back seat to everything. Maybe I am more conscious of it now that I also have kids to watch out for. If you enjoy walking across parking lots dodging people who seem to think they are the only ones around then maybe its not that bad.

Maybe I am being a bit too negative, but for one, I think that I should have the right to walk without getting harassed for it.

GB Surveyor. The people here should all be required to own one of these...ha ha. External airbags for us pedestrians.

http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09%2F05%2F06%2F1651222

http://s.fsdn.com/sd/articles/09/05/06/1651222-1.png

I am wondering with everyone's views are on green bay clinics building new buildings in lightly populated areas and moving services to the new buildings?.

Thoughts?

To me, this is one of Green Bay's biggest issues. From the perspective of these 'services', they feel they are moving to places that are 'more accessible' to their clients. That is what I often hear. This all is, however, contributing to our sprawl and perpetuating the car-based lifestyle, of which I inadvertently became part of. So many of us fall into this trap. It's easy to do.

I too fall into this urban sprawl trap of driving. This town is so fricken spread out it is ridiculous. Sometimes I wish I lived in Europe where everything seems to be compact. Damn automobiles !


Did u guys see that the Brown County courthouse is missing its top? Yeah it was a warm one today...anyways...they are refurbishing the copper dome, which will take about 6 weeks to finish.

I too fall into this urban sprawl trap of driving. This town is so fricken spread out it is ridiculous. Sometimes I wish I lived in Europe where everything seems to be compact. Damn automobiles !


Did u guys see that the Brown County courthouse is missing its top? Yeah it was a warm one today...anyways...they are refurbishing the copper dome, which will take about 6 weeks to finish.

I try and am somewhat successful at staying here on the East side with most of my travels. I lived in the town of Scott for awhile and can understand the feeling of being just out of reach of everything by a mile or two.

I took this pic on Thurs. afternoon and the top of the courthouse is till there. It's supposed to rain this weekend but I'll try to get a pic when after the rain is gone and the the sun is shining to show the top off the courthouse.

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww359/GB-Pix/Courthouse05-08-09.jpg

I think that I just certified that I am a complete loser... Yep friday night and I just watched the April 8 city council meeting- damn ondemand channel 1111.

Zima and VanderLeast really are just an embarrasment to this city.:ohno:


BTW - Good work speaking up there Dan- did you stay the entire meeting?

The City of Green Bay Website (http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/index.html) has been updated. It includes a photo of East side of the Fox River. Too bad the photographer couldn't have gotten a shot with a leisure boat passing through. I guess that will have to wait until after the City Deck is built and the photo needs to be updated.

I guess that will have to wait until after the City Deck is built and the photo needs to be updated.

Just as long as they don't do an unannounced "flyby" and scare everyone.

I can't believe people would not think of WARNING that the plane was going to fly past the Statue of Liberty...

on a side note... not sure what time they turn them off... btu I see in the mornings the Cherry Street ramp internal lights are mostly turned off..

on a side note... not sure what time they turn them off... btu I see in the mornings the Cherry Street ramp internal lights are mostly turned off..

They probably get turned off an hour after the taverns close, that would be my guess.

Now that it's getting warmer people are starting to fish more downtown. This photo of people fishing at Leicht Festival Grounds is taken from the Nitshcke Bridge looking westward. In the background is what's left of Larsen Canning.

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww359/GB-Pix/FishingFox01.jpg

Classic line in the article... The last one.

Bullfrogs: We'll upgrade Joannes, but we need a new stadium

BY PAUL SRUBAS
psrubas@greenbaypressgazette.com
May 13, 2009

The Green Bay Bullfrogs will continue to stick money into the baseball stadium at Joannes Park, but the team is making it clear to the city that it is rapidly outgrowing the facility and will need to move.


As the Northwoods League baseball team prepares to begin its third season, it has invested “easily a couple hundred thousand” dollars in the stadium, owner Jeff Royle said.

The team has painted, cleaned and refurbished buildings and added a 4,000-square-foot fan deck in right field. Last year, the team moved some fences, built a concessions stand and added inflatable games to its children’s area. This year, the team plans to expand the concessions facility in left field and build a fan deck in left field.

Those projects have come out of the organization’s pockets.

But last week, the team cut a deal with the city that will allow the team to spend $17,250 on improvements rather than paying that money to the city for the remaining three years of its lease. The team needs to provide the city proof of its expenses for the agreed-upon improvements, which include solving drainage issues on the field, purchasing tarps for covering the infield in rainy weather and building a new warning track in the outfield.

The team has spent its money on facility improvements that were for its benefit, Royle said. But the field also is used by high school and American Legion baseball teams, and the proposed improvements would benefit everyone, Royle said.

In the long term, the stadium likely won’t continue to meet the Bullfrogs’ needs, Royle said. The team has been averaging about 1,300 people per game but exceeded the stadium’s capacity of 1,600 several times last season. Royle has approached Green Bay and Ashwaubenon with a request for a new stadium.

The team’s lease expires after the 2012 season, and Royle would like to see something in the works by then.

“They could use a 3,500- to 5,000-seat capacity,” Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt said. “That said, I don’t know that 33 baseball games a year would justify a stadium of that size.”

Schmitt said he has asked Royle to develop a plan showing how a new stadium could be used at least 100 days a year, for concerts, graduations or other sporting events.

“As much as we love Joannes, the couple times we had fireworks there, the neighbors weren’t happy, so there’s a concern about changing Joannes to a multiuse facility,” Schmitt said. “If they’re going to spend $10 to $15 million on a new facility, we’d have to have it in the right neighborhood.”

Schmitt and Royle both expressed interest in using city-owned property on South Broadway, just north of the Don A. Tilleman Bridge on Mason Street.

Financing remains a bigger problem.

“Of the 100 or so stadiums that have been built around the country in recent years, some are 100 percent privately built, others 100 percent publicly built and others are a combination of the two,” Royle said.

While Schmitt and Royle have focused on a possible stadium in the downtown district, Royle also has been in discussions with Ashwaubenon.

“We’ve identified a couple of possible sites between Oneida Street and Ashland Avenue,” Royle said.

While Royle would prefer to keep the team in Green Bay and believes a downtown location would be just the thing to revitalize the downtown, he’ll go wherever he has to, to keep the Bullfrogs going.

“Somebody’s going to want us more, and the best offer will rise to the top,” he said.


I know everyone has to say that, but the idea of revitalizing downtown and being on the river rather than being stuck between Oneida and Ashland for a couple hundred thousand makes no sense... whatever.

^^Count me in the crew that would love to see the Bullfrogs on the "Brownfield of Dreams" :lol:


Did u guys see that the Brown County courthouse is missing its top? Yeah it was a warm one today...anyways...they are refurbishing the copper dome, which will take about 6 weeks to finish.

I was downtown today, snapped a couple pictures. Sorry for the crappy quality I took it on my POS Motorola Razr. Also the crappy weather, wow does it look gloomy haha

http://www.geocities.com/dabion11/fgfgdreh.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/dabion11/ggghye.jpg

Anyone here about the RDA meeting held on tuesday?

I see that the RDA agenda mentions:

8. Update and possible action on WHEDA Tax Credit application by Cardinal Capital Management, Inc.

Is this the group working on the relocation of the PPT residents?

here is a link to their website... link (http://www.cardinalcapital.us/index.php)

Boy, the naysayers on the Press-Gazette website are even more hot and bothered than usual about the proposed Bullfrogs stadium. :ohno:

I know they may be in the minority, but as they say, "the squeaky wheel gets greased."

Boy, the naysayers on the Press-Gazette website are even more hot and bothered than usual about the proposed Bullfrogs stadium. :ohno:

I know they may be in the minority, but as they say, "the squeaky wheel gets greased."

Part of the problem here is that the owner of the Bullfrogs is asking for public money in building any new stadium. That's always a political minefield. Part of it too may be the cost of a new Bullfrogs stadium mentioned in the Press-Gazette article: $10 - $15 million. That seems awfully high. (Waukesha is planning to build a new stadium in the same league as the Bullfrogs for less than $2 million.) Also, some people may resent the fact Royle seems to be publicly playing off Green Bay against Ashwaubenon in the bid for who gets a new stadium.

Although he certainly has many talents and much enthusiasm and energy for the city, on the big political issues of the day, Mayor Schmitt can sometimes show an uncanny ability to botch things up. I think Royle wants to stay in Green Bay and would seem to be willing to work with the city. But if the mayor drives too hard a bargain here, Ashwaubenon and its considerable sports/entertainment district might seem more appealing for the Bullfrogs. Finding 100 days of use for the new stadium seems like a lot. I'm all for the brownfield area. What a boost that would be.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090514/GPG0101/90514004&s=d&page=#pluckcomments

This all is, however, contributing to our sprawl and perpetuating the car-based lifestyle, of which I inadvertently became part of. So many of us fall into this trap. It's easy to do.

I guess I see this the other way. The sprawl already exists. Moving medical services out closer to where people live should reduce the distance people have to travel to access said services. It should allow for a slightly more compact lifestyle. That's good. I'm all for the downtown, but there will be suburbs, so we might as well have as good of suburbs as we can.

Good work speaking up there Dan- did you stay the entire meeting?

Thanks. I was there until the River Center plan passed. It was late.

Boy, the naysayers on the Press-Gazette website are even more hot and bothered than usual about the proposed Bullfrogs stadium.

Also, some people may resent the fact Royle seems to be publicly playing off Green Bay against Ashwaubenon in the bid for who gets a new stadium.

Count me as one of those people. I like where the stadium is, and almost certainly the most cost effective approach is to renovate Joannes. I also like the Brownfield site, that would be cool. I'm all for the city taking an active role in helping them at the Brownfield site, and if there's some sort of TIF plan that can aid that or something, then super. But this guy's been on here with his over-the-top rhetoric about how somehow the entire fate of the downtown rests upon a ballpark, or trying to play GB vs Ashwaubenon. It's wearing pretty thin for me.

Look, I can understand a businessman trying to get the best deal possible. And if that's in Ashwaubenon, then fine, go to Ashwaubenon, the downtown will continue to move on. But I just hate this deal where people come and play one local community against another. I wish the entire County was one municipality so that this couldn't happen, but unigov isn't coming here any time soon. To be honest, I can't see Ashwaubenon bending over backwards for this. I just think ifyoubuildit...errr... Royal is trying to create a competition that doesn't exist.

For me, Green Bay should work with him to some up with what's a good plan for Green Bay. If that's enough for the Bullfrogs, then super, they have a great product and I'd love to have them in the city. If they can get a better deal somewhere else, then good for them and good luck, the people of Green Bay will still be able to go to the games. I just don't think the city should act in any way based upon fear of the team locating outside the city limits.

^^

I hear what you're saying. But the City of Green Bay's already lost too many developments to the 'burbs or Appleton. I'd hate to see it lose its new baseball team too.

I am not in favor of using tax dollars on the stadium either. I wonder how many of the comments would still be negative on the P-G forum even if no tax dollars were involved.

Most, if not all, stadiums built nowadays seem to be partially funded by tax dollars.....not that it makes it "right"...but those communities with the political will to bring in a stadium will get them. Green Bay is not one of those communities with any sort of political will for these sorts of things.

It seems the only subsidized spending that's OK with most Green Bayans is for billion-dollar freeways leading out of town. Maybe it's because people so desperately want to leave here as fast as possible.

Where in the world does the article about a new stadium for the Bullfrogs say anything about asking Green Bay area taxpayers to flip the bill..??

What might have tweaked people off was the part of the article that says,

“Of the 100 or so stadiums that have been built around the country in recent years, some are 100 percent privately built, others 100 percent publicly built and others are a combination of the two,” Royle said."

I feel that the Bullfrogs stadium would have to be of those "privately built" if it is to be accepted here.

You know, I want to see the stadium get built. I do like the current stadium too, but it seems more fitting for the high school and legion teams. It does not compare to the rest of the league. Build it on the brownfield! What if the city simply donated the land, but the stadium was then privately built? Could that work?

tax payers should help pay for the stadium. it is a BENEFIT to have a team like that play in your backyard. it's not a benefit to the team to play in Green Bay. they can move anywhere and you will be stuck either driving somewhere to watch hem or not at all. everyone in the city of Green Bay want everything for nothing and it's funny because it doesn't work that way. the city will never grow because of the people that live there. you guys are already jumping to conclusions on having to flip the entire bill on this thing. try this....sit back and watch everything unfold with an open mind and determine what would be the FAIR proposal. not the FREE proposal. FAIR means everything chips in and benefits. think about that for a change!!

What might have tweaked people off was the part of the article that says,

“Of the 100 or so stadiums that have been built around the country in recent years, some are 100 percent privately built, others 100 percent publicly built and others are a combination of the two,” Royle said."

I read that as nothing but Royle stating some facts regarding other stadiums built around the country and how they were financed. Seems the reporter asked him what's the future for the Bullfrogs and Royle was telling him they are trying to determine what's best in the long run themselves.

Having been to many games and the fact that they average 1300 in a facility that holds 1600, one can understand the Bullfrogs looking at options with regards to what's best in the long run.

The entire Bullfrogs organization has been nothing but a HUGE positive to this community. Any negative comments on PG website directed at there organization directly seem to be coming from a few who couldn't or didn't have the foresight or commitment to bring baseball back to this community in the manner the Bullfrogs organization has and their comments stink of sheer jealously..!!

ifyoubuildit-If you don't mind me asking, have you heard anything as far as a timeline for the stadium plan to be in place? Do you know what the Bullfrogs preference would be for a site or what other uses are being thought of? Could these other uses help with financing? The Brownfield site could be something really, really special!

The article mentions their lease expires in 2012 and they are hoping to have some concrete plans in place well in advance of that. It also mentions that they have talked with Mayor about the Brown/Greenfield site and doesn't mention any other site in downtown so I'd have to say that's the spot of the most interest. I agree, that site is in dire straights and the concept of a new stadium on that site is amazing.

..... But this guy's been on here with his over-the-top rhetoric about how somehow the entire fate of the downtown rests upon a ballpark, or trying to play GB vs Ashwaubenon. It's wearing pretty thin for me.

Look, I can understand a businessman trying to get the best deal possible. And if that's in Ashwaubenon, then fine, go to Ashwaubenon, the downtown will continue to move on. But I just hate this deal where people come and play one local community against another. I wish the entire County was one municipality so that this couldn't happen, but unigov isn't coming here any time soon. To be honest, I can't see Ashwaubenon bending over backwards for this. I just think ifyoubuildit...errr... Royal is trying to create a competition that doesn't exist.

For me, Green Bay should work with him to some up with what's a good plan for Green Bay. If that's enough for the Bullfrogs, then super, they have a great product and I'd love to have them in the city. If they can get a better deal somewhere else, then good for them and good luck, the people of Green Bay will still be able to go to the games. I just don't think the city should act in any way based upon fear of the team locating outside the city limits.

If Royle was trying to 'play one community versus another', that talk never really bothered me. It's not any different than any business that looks at all possibilities in the metro area for the best location to suit their needs.

Maybe the tone of Royle's was a little bit more that of a sports-minded / competitor-type, but I didn't take that as being negative in any way.

I know he was hoping for a lot of community support once the news of the new stadium broke. What we've all seen is a generally negative reaction. I'm hoping we can rise above that. I do think that the Bullfrogs have really done a lot of good here in this community and I hope that the organization can continue to grow.

In this town, getting anything built seems so extraordinarily difficult, there's so much vocal and political opposition to just about everything new, it seems. Not sure why that is. It's still kind of a small town, many people want to hold on to that?

I think physical fitness, athletic competition and sports teams are as important to a community as having a good performing arts center, good social services, a good mental health center, good libraries, good schools, etc. Teams like the Bullfrogs play a quasi-public role in that, although usually privately owned, they're seen as representing their cities and do a great amount of public relations and attracting tourism dollars for themselves and local businesses in the communities they're located.

Within reason and with proper oversight, I have no problem with spending tax dollars to help facilitate a new baseball stadium here. I supported the Lambeau Field referendum, and I'd support the city or county helping with a new Bullfrogs stadium as well. If I'm not mistaken, in Madison the breakdown for funding the planned $2 million stadium renovation there is 40% city, 60% team. In Waukesha, its much less public dollars. I just don't have faith that Mayor Schmitt has the political skills to pull this off, and a new stadium issue here will blow up into a big public controversy . . . and the team moves to Ashwaubenon. If the stadium matter were to go to a public referendum, my guess is it would fail, especially in today's economic climate. The anti crowd would be highly agitated.

Over the many decades, there have been a number of things that saved and kept the Green Bay Packers in Green Bay. One of them was the city's decision, supported by a public referendum, to build what's now called Lambeau Field in 1957. Had that project failed and the Packers remained in a 25,000-seat wooden stadium behind East High School, I don't think Vince Lombardi would have decided to come to Green Bay two years later. And the rest is history. The Packers were an abysmal team in the 1950s, and there was talk in and around the NFL of having the team move to Milwaukee. I think the new City Stadium saved the day.

If Royle was trying to 'play one community versus another', that talk never really bothered me. It's not any different than any business that looks at all possibilities in the metro area for the best location to suit their needs.

Maybe the tone of Royle's was a little bit more that of a sports-minded / competitor-type, but I didn't take that as being negative in any way.

I know he was hoping for a lot of community support once the news of the new stadium broke. What we've all seen is a generally negative reaction. I'm hoping we can rise above that. I do think that the Bullfrogs have really done a lot of good here in this community and I hope that the organization can continue to grow.

In this town, getting anything built seems so extraordinarily difficult, there's so much vocal and political opposition to just about everything new, it seems. Not sure why that is. It's still kind of a small town, many people want to hold on to that?


I agree! Royle is doing EXACTLY what he should be doing. He's looking out for the best interests of his team. Like it or not, his loyalty lies with that organization, not with the city.

Just like he has a responsibility to do what's right for the team, the mayor, city council, etc., have a responsibility to do what's right for the city. Personally, I think that includes doing what it takes to get the team downtown.

Spending public dollars is never a popular decision, but for the long-term health of the local economy, it can be the right decision.

yeah i kinda agree with Green Bay Roots...I really dont care if some of my taxes go to a new small stadium, even if i wont go to a game. Its about the idea of being privileged to have a team/sport here in the first place, and the benefits that brings indirectly, or even directly. There are times when we need to look past the "cost" of something and look at the future benefits of it...maybe that something will fail, but you have to try and take risks. Its called an investment. This area hasn't done enough risk taking, and i think that is why this area is a little slower in development.

Within reason and with proper oversight, I have no problem with spending tax dollars to help facilitate a new baseball stadium here. I supported the Lambeau Field referendum, and I'd support the city or county helping with a new Bullfrogs stadium as well. If I'm not mistaken, in Madison the breakdown for funding the planned $2 million stadium renovation there is 40% city, 60% team. In Waukesha, its much less public dollars.

Over the many decades, there have been a number of things that saved and kept the Green Bay Packers in Green Bay. One of them was the city's decision, supported by a public referendum, to build what's now called Lambeau Field in 1957. Had that project failed and the Packers remained in a 25,000-seat wooden stadium behind East High School, I don't think Vince Lombardi would have decided to come to Green Bay two years later. And the rest is history. The Packers were an abysmal team in the 1950s, and there was talk in and around the NFL of having the team move to Milwaukee. I think the new City Stadium saved the day.

My reaction to the first paragraph is that if Madison and Waukesha both of whom have much larger populations to draw from can build a stadium for COLLEGE level players (and poss side use for concerts and local HS teams) for 1.5-2 millions WHY do we need a 10-15 million stadium ???

Regarding the second paragraph I quoted... again this is a college level baseball team vs a professional team - I understand in the 1950's the Packers were not that great, but neither were they in the 70's and 80's, but it was still part of a national professional franchise. I would think differently (possibly) if we were talking semi-pro or farm teams attached to a major league team (like Appleton). For the record, I also did not support the added tax for Lambeau. They only play what 5-6 games in a year not counting post season. I understand the Atrium is used more than that, but I'm sure the Packers could have afforded to do more. And to only have Brown County pay if not fair. If the Packers are such a wonderful "REGIONAL" draw... then why isn't the region paying too?

As to location... I feel upgrading Johannes to hold 3-4,000 would be best. But if they really want a new stadium, the Greenfield site near the bridge would be best. No other downtown location would fit or be cost effective for them. I am guessing besides a TIF area, the city will end up giving the land to them as well. What is land on the riverfront worth for the right development? How much could it be sold for outright? I'm guessing land value is about a million for the whole area. And possible millions in new tax base. A marina and hotel/office complex would be worth more than the stadium would. Also just wait... I bet Mr Royal figures out how to make it non-profit and therefore removes the stadium from the tax base. And boom... more lost tax revenue...

Just for clarification, the Packers play 10 home games each year (including preseason, excluding playoffs). Also, I think it is important to look at not only the tax impact of the stadium itself, but the impact of the fans who go to restaurants or other attractions downtown before or after the game. That was the major selling point for the Packers - and it is true, because they provide a major economic impact. I can't recall what the dollar amount is estimated to be for home game weekends, but I know training camp brings in a whopping $60 million in impact every year! Not only does it provide for direct economic impact, it also puts Green Bay "on the map" for many people and enhances the quality of life in the area.

As to location... I feel upgrading Johannes to hold 3-4,000 would be best. But if they really want a new stadium, the Greenfield site near the bridge would be best. No other downtown location would fit or be cost effective for them. I am guessing besides a TIF area, the city will end up giving the land to them as well. What is land on the riverfront worth for the right development? How much could it be sold for outright? I'm guessing land value is about a million for the whole area. And possible millions in new tax base. A marina and hotel/office complex would be worth more than the stadium would. Also just wait... I bet Mr Royal figures out how to make it non-profit and therefore removes the stadium from the tax base. And boom... more lost tax revenue...

I agree with what you're saying. I feel the brownfield site is better left to a commercial development.

Now we have three years for Royle to establish relations with corporate partners and raise funds for the stadium he needs. Depending on how well he does that, along with making his organization appear to be an important factor in the quality of life for the people, will determine his success if he comes looking for Public assistance.

I'm in favor of upgrading Joannes and the parking problem can be solved by eliminating the soccer field in the right side of the photo. Post-game traffic easily gets on Main St and quickly disperses. But I wonder if people would be turned off by having to walk that far over two bridges to the stadium.

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww359/GB-Pix/PossibleParking4Joannes.jpg

Just for clarification, the Packers play 10 home games each year (including preseason, excluding playoffs). Also, I think it is important to look at not only the tax impact of the stadium itself, but the impact of the fans who go to restaurants or other attractions downtown before or after the game. That was the major selling point for the Packers - and it is true, because they provide a major economic impact. I can't recall what the dollar amount is estimated to be for home game weekends, but I know training camp brings in a whopping $60 million in impact every year! Not only does it provide for direct economic impact, it also puts Green Bay "on the map" for many people and enhances the quality of life in the area.

You can't really compare a Bullfrogs game to a Packers game. Bullfrogs games are a weeknight event and last a few hours. A place to take the family after dinner (most likely at home) on a Summer night. Packers games are a weekend event for most attendees. The amount of money coming in to hotels and restaurants from a Bullfrogs game is nothing compared to Packers games. The Northwoods league will always be a regional league and other than the fans in Green Bay and surrounding area, nobody will care about the Bullfrogs, except fans of opposing teams. Please compare apples to apples.

You can't really compare a Bullfrogs game to a Packers game. Bullfrogs games are a weeknight event and last a few hours. A place to take the family after dinner (most likely at home) on a Summer night. Packers games are a weekend event for most attendees. The amount of money coming in to hotels and restaurants from a Bullfrogs game is nothing compared to Packers games. The Northwoods league will always be a regional league and other than the fans in Green Bay and surrounding area, nobody will care about the Bullfrogs, except fans of opposing teams. Please compare apples to apples.
He's right. Comparing the two is like comparing the Joker to the Riddler.
~~
I am in favor of expanding at Joannes Stadium for the time being, considering the state of the economy. I would like to see a new stadium in downtown Green Bay in the future....

I'm sorry, I wasn't saying that the indirect revenue for local businesses from Bullfrogs' games would be anything close to what the Packers' games bring in. I was just saying that stadiums in general should not be analyzed solely on the tax revenue which they directly create. I can definitely see people going out to the downtown bars after a Friday or Saturday night game. Or, even better, hopefully these games would allow people who don't normally come downtown to see a newly completed CityDeck, and improve their perspective on the area.

Also, I know there are differing views on this, but don't you think it is more cost-effective long term to build a new stadium downtown, rather than expanding Joannes now with a goal of building a new stadium down the line? I know it could conserve money now, but by building a long-term stadium downtown, the Bullfrogs, and Green Bay, would certainly prepare themselves better for the future.

Finally, I think dmsklutz brought up a really good point about a possible claim for non-profit tax exemption. However, looking online, the Northwoods League president, Dick Radatz, said that the league is the first "for-profit Summer Collegiate League," so I do not believe that they will be able to claim that - which could be good news for the city.

Here's the article, the question is about one-third of the way down:
http://www.omgn.com/nexus/?p=198

Also, I know there are differing views on this, but don't you think it is more cost-effective long term to build a new stadium downtown, rather than expanding Joannes now with a goal of building a new stadium down the line? I know it could conserve money now, but by building a long-term stadium downtown, the Bullfrogs, and Green Bay, would certainly prepare themselves better for the future.



You bring up a good point. If the goal is to someday have the frogs downtown then spending too much on expanding Joannes would leave us with an expensive empty facility when that move takes place.

That's why we need the Bullfrogs to keep winning games and filling Joannes' with over capacity crowds. The decision will be easier to make if they do this. I think it would be cool to have a stadium downtown, but it's still too early for me to commit to that. I want to see the Bullfrogs' success during the interim and so far it looks pretty good that they can achieve it.

I do appreciate the "sandlot" atmosphere of the current Johannes Park stadium, and the history of it all. So it certainly isn't a bad thing if they stay there.

I'm wondering if the new stadium can be built more in keeping with the "sandlot" (open, wooden bleachers, smaller to start with--maybe 2500 to 3000 seats) at first, but expandable. Maybe kinda like shown below--but a better bleacher design. Could a decent, cozy 3000 seat wooden bleacher stadium be privately financed for say under $3 million?

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/brownfieldStadium_Skyline3_PHOTOSHO.jpg

I do appreciate the "sandlot" atmosphere of the current Johannes Park stadium, and the history of it all. So it certainly isn't a bad thing if they stay there.

I'm wondering if the new stadium can be built more in keeping with the "sandlot" (open, wooden bleachers, smaller to start with--maybe 2500 to 3000 seats) at first, but expandable. Maybe kinda like shown below--but a better bleacher design. Could a decent, cozy 3000 seat wooden bleacher stadium be privately financed for say under $3 million?

You're on to something there. A stadium that's designed to grow with the team's success is more in line with what the market can support. The Bullfrogs are all about affordable family fun and their home should reflect that. Wooden bleachers are very nostalgic in my opinion.

I'm reminded of 1992 when I was visiting a sister that lived in Coeur d’Alene Idaho. We took a day-trip to see the Grand Coulee Dam and on the way back we stopped at a small greyhound racing track outside of Spokane. It wasn't any thing flashy or extravagant. For concessions they had burgers, hot dogs, pretzels and chips and that was about it. The bets were $2.00 so the whole experience was affordable and we had a lot of fun. Then the Kaukauna dog track opened up and I knew it wouldn't last long because reports were that it was a pretty expensive affair to go to. So I'd go for your proposal to build small and expand as the need arises.

I really like the idea of expanding as time goes on, from most experiences I seem to recall that it usually is more cost effective to build what you think you need for the next 5 years or so and expand as needed. If you start too small then you will be paying for upgrades all the time. I would imagine that the financing would become more complex as time went on. I seem to recall reading that that most municipal supported stadiums are financed with municipal bonds, which is a relatively expensive up front cost spread over time. If it was private financing I am not sure how it would work if the owner didn't have huge pockets. This start small and expand concept reminds me of the Dental Associates building- build one floor now and expand later, I think that building has been there 10 years now.

I thought that some time back there were pending plans on the table for the brownfield site, anyone know what those are/were? and/or if anything is still brewing?

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/Professional_Pictures_0875.jpg

I don't know where the mayor got his figure of $10-$15 million for a new Bullfrogs stadium. Off hand, that seems preposterous. I don't like the fact there seems to be some public tension now between the mayor and the team. Not a good sign; could signal trouble eventually down the road. Above photo is when the La Crosse Loggers of the Northwoods League set a team attendance record of 5,889. Love the warning track!

^^
I was looking at some of the teams in the Northwoods league, some of the stadiums seem like they are in older developed neighborhoods, some are on water features and some seem real basic, just like Johannes. I really like the casual deck seating that they have now and wouldn't be all that impressed if they build a new stadium and had wooden bleacher seats. I think I would prefer lawn seating.

The bullfrogs absolutely have to end up downtown. If they end up in Ashwaubenon then game over.


A good,healthy downtown offers a MIX.

If I said that DT GB is bars and banks could anyone really argue with me?

DT GB does not have the right mix yet.

The bullfrogs park is one more semi major piece to the puzzle. It does not complete the puzzle but it would offer some diversity DT.

Does DT GB offer any sports?

no.

movies?

no.

concerts?

sorta...the Meyer has a few but generally 9 out of every 10 shows will be at the Resch or Casino.

bowling?

no.

major retail shopping?

no.

amusement park/rides/physical fun?

no.




The bullfrogs stadium to me is not a finishing touch project but one that would set others in motion.

If you build the park DT it becomes a glue that other projects can stick to. More restaurants. More business for bars. Increases quality of life for residents and makes living in the area more enjoyable.

I live DT.

To me,the frogs are kinda tucked out of sight out of mind in their present location and,,getting there involves driving and parking.

If I could practically see the park from my apt I would be far more inclined to go to games. More spur of the moment type stuff.

Right now...a night out is dinner at Fratellos followed by a movie at Bay Park.

However...a night out could become dinner at blackstone and a game...all while leaving the car in the lot.


Green Bay has this mentality of..ok,new project..which suburb will we build it in?

This has to stop or DT is a lost cause.

Banks,bars,a few high priced steak joints and some artsy fartsy shops that close at 6pm is not an exciting DT to me.

Forget the skyscrapers/hi-rise condos even for a moment. It's not even about that anymore.

The fact that I live right DT and can not be entertained unless I get into my car and drive somewhere is not cool. It sucks.


And there is no reason at all the park can not be built for 3 mil. None whatsoever.

And I think in addition to the 30 games you could get another 20 nights w/ concerts,fireworks,etc.

GB doesn't have a real outdoor concert venue capable of holding 3,500-4,500 people for a national act. They could easily build and market this park as a dual use facility.

You could also add a year round restaurant in left similar to Fridays at Miller Park.

You could have a mini marina w/ some shops lining a boardwalk and have a little baseball/river front entertainment district.

Possibilities are endless and it's something that would build out over time. Get the park,a signature restaurant and some parking built and then move on from there.


It's true..GB doesn't take any risks. Sure...you'll never lose if you hang on to your dice but you can never win either.

I don't even see this as a risk really.

The bullfrogs absolutely have to end up downtown. If they end up in Ashwaubenon then game over.

What game is over... why?

If I said that DT GB is bars and banks could anyone really argue with me?

Yes, me.

DT GB does not have the right mix yet.

True.

concerts? sorta...the Meyer has a few but generally 9 out of every 10 shows will be at the Resch or Casino.

That's not the Meyer's fault. You can't blame the Meyer or the downtown because everything isn't down there. The Meyer is booked over 100 days/nights a year, it brings more people downtown than the Bullfrogs are likely ever to. That's not a knock on the Bullfrogs, but we can't be so quick to dismiss the Meyer because it isn't everything to everyone.

bowling? no. major retail shopping? no. amusement park/rides/physical fun? no.

Horrors. There isn't a downtown bowling alley. Retail has left downtowns all over the place. And Bay Beach isn't quite downtown.

Right now...a night out is dinner at Fratellos followed by a movie at Bay Park.

However...a night out could become dinner at blackstone and a game...all while leaving the car in the lot.

Because you can't eat downtown if you are going to an event outside of downtown...

And I think in addition to the 30 games you could get another 20 nights w/ concerts,fireworks,etc.

I think it is wildly optimistic to get 20 concerts a year there, certainly 20 that couldn't be held at Leight Park with some (less costly) improvements there.

Okay, I don't mean to pick on you... really. And I'll be the first to admit that I've become borderline irrational about this whole ballpark idea (borderline?). What got me going is the premise that "The bullfrogs absolutely have to end up downtown. If they end up in Ashwaubenon then game over," which echos what ifyoubuildit started out on here with about how a ballpark would be the magical savior of downtown but the lack of one would lead to ruin. Really, a ballpark would be a very nice addition, and if it was done right I'd agree that some city help in making it happen is worthwhile. There's greater value to spending some money to do something right than there is in spending the least possible to get the cheapest possible alternative. Setting aside my view that the greatest total value for Green Bay is at Joannes, a downtown location could be awesome and an excellent addition.

That said, lets do a little thought experiment where the Bullfrogs never came into being. In that scenario, I don't think many of us (GBMPhillips excepted) would be on here saying that without a Northwoods League baseball team playing downtown the "game" would be over. Now, I give Royal a lot of credit for bringing a team here, and it's a great product, but if it ends up that the area has a team and it isn't downtown, then that's not worse nor would it imperil the downtown more than if the area had no team at all.

At the same time, while getting the team downtown would have a positive effect, it is no magic bullet that would make everything all better. It's a piece that brings people down 30 nights a year, which is great.

And look, 10,000 people work downtown, some number (I don't know the figure) live downtown, there's a Convention Center, a hotel industry, a wide range of places to eat from Al's through to Black & Tan or The Republic, there are interesting and unique shops (even if not everybody shops at each one), there a Library that brings thousands upon thousands of people down, a great 1,000 seat theater... and soon a unique public space that will provide access to the river, and an adjacent Children's Museum.

And banks and bars.

Not everything's perfect, far from it. A baseball stadium is a great idea, it will help. But it will only add events 30 nights a year that couldn't be added elsewhere for less investment. That doesn't mean a ballpark is a bad investment or the wrong investment. But it does mean that progress will go on downtown even if there is no ballpark.

And as an aside, Ashwaubenon isn't going to be throwing money at the Bullfrogs either.

So, sorry to carry on, but if anyone can't tell, this whole idea of the importance of a ballpark downtown, or the detrimental effects of life without one, especially as it is presented by Royal/ifyoubuildit... I mean... it just drives me up a wall. I'll shut up now, good day.

:soapbox:

just to point somethin out, no opinion; Fox Cities stadium is in Grand Chute...Appleton's "Ashwaubenon" suburb.

Anyone catch this in the press gazette?

Richard Ryman column: East Town lineup to add Sonic restaurant
May 17, 2009

A Sonic Drive-In will replace the Storheim's Frozen Custard restaurant, 2276 E. Mason St., at East Town Mall.
Jenny Sparks, senior director of facilities for franchisee Twilight Burgers LLC of Franklin, said they hope to open in late September or October. Construction will begin in late June, pending permits.

A Storheim's spokesman refused to comment.

Sparks said Twilight Burgers has development rights for eastern Wisconsin and has one open store in West Milwaukee. Twilight plans to open six stores this year and has agreed to 29 overall. Others will be in Grand Chute, Appleton, Waukesha, Oak Creek and Greenfield. They also are looking at other Green Bay sites, she said.

Sonics are drive-in or drive-through only restaurants. There is no indoor seating. Sparks said the Sonic in West Milwaukee opened in February and performed well, as have Sonics in other northern locations.

She said the restaurant will have up to 120 full- and part-time employees.

Sonics in Madison and Eau Claire are owned by other franchisees.

The Web site is www.sonicdrivein.com.

I really love sonic and think that it will be an improvement... but Storheims East was my first job & I think that might be the end to the Storheims legacy.:goodnight

Interesting development. I like Storheims and I wish the one downtown was still here. Actually, maybe not, I would eat there too much.

Storheims on the east side and Storheims on the west side are not owned by the same people from what I am told.

Anyone catch this in the press gazette?

I really love sonic and think that it will be an improvement... but Storheims East was my first job & I think that might be the end to the Storheims legacy.:goodnight

Interesting development. I like Storheims and I wish the one downtown was still here. Actually, maybe not, I would eat there too much.

Storheims on the east side and Storheims on the west side are not owned by the same people from what I am told.

When I worked there in the early 90's they were all owned by the Kern Family. Ray would pop in now and then and start frying up some burgers. If anyone remembers the "founders day sales" those were the hayday of the storheims franchise. We all competed for the top sales. West Mason always kicked butt, it was insanely busy. I met a ton of great friends working there, including my wife. Several years ago Ray passed away and some of the stores were sold off and/or closed. The west Mason store closed a few months back, which was a surprise to me and it only seemed like the east town store wouldn't be far behind- I think that the Culvers is eroding its business too much. Anyways

When did the west side store close? I guess I did not notice which is bad as I host their web site.

I think you are 100% correct with the effect that Culvers had on Storheims.

The west Mason store closed a few months back, which was a surprise to me and it only seemed like the east town store wouldn't be far behind- I think that the Culvers is eroding its business too much. Anyways