http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/Professional_Pictures_0875.jpg

I don't know where the mayor got his figure of $10-$15 million for a new Bullfrogs stadium. Off hand, that seems preposterous. I don't like the fact there seems to be some public tension now between the mayor and the team. Not a good sign; could signal trouble eventually down the road. Above photo is when the La Crosse Loggers of the Northwoods League set a team attendance record of 5,889. Love the warning track!

Green Bay is certainly not going to allow the Bullfrogs to build on the riverfront and Mason street and put up a 1 or 2 million dollar stadium..!! They have to one up Appleton and that place was built 14 years ago to the tune of 9 million.

Green Bay is certainly not going to allow the Bullfrogs to build on the riverfront and Mason street and put up a 1 or 2 million dollar stadium..!! They have to one up Appleton and that place was built 14 years ago to the tune of 9 million.

What makes the mayor's numbers seem extremely high is that a new Northwoods League stadium is being planned in Waukesha for $1.5 million and a major renovation to the Madison ballpark has been put at $2 million. Maybe the best route for the city would be to contribute what it could in indirect costs — land, infrastructure, sewers, streets, parking, lighting, etc. Perhaps there could also be an issue with footings having to be drilled down into the riverfront soil to support the stadium structure. The Bullfrogs, then, would pay for the stadium itself — at whatever cost — Chevy or Cadillac.

Another interesting angle is that Ashwaubenon just elected a new village president. I don't think he's from the same mold as past presidents, and it would be interesting to see if he would enthusiastically court the Bullfrogs or not. Maybe there's a chance De Pere, Howard or Hobart could enter into the picture. Hope not. I'm a brownfield guy. Downtown Green Bay needs to capture any and all major opportunities it comes across. Royle's team would be a perfect fit there, and a stadium could inspire additional compatible development on South Broadway.

Green Bay is certainly not going to allow the Bullfrogs to build on the riverfront and Mason street and put up a 1 or 2 million dollar stadium..!! They have to one up Appleton and that place was built 14 years ago to the tune of 9 million.

Why do we have to one up Appleton? Give me one good reason why we should be in some sort of competition with Appleton. Are they an enemy of ours? How well did it work out when Green Bay and Appleton both built performing arts centers? Is the region better off because we have two competing airports? What the heck does Appleton's ballpark have to do with anything? And besides, the Rattlers (Foxes) had been around for over 30 years when that ballpark got built, and that's a professional minor league team. That's not a knock on the Bullfrogs, but building a park for a team like that is a lot better bet than building one for the Bullfrogs. I mean, seriously, there are enough good reasons to support a ballpark without A) trying to make it sound like the entire fate of the downtown rests upon building a baseball stadium, or B) trying to invent rivalries with other area municipalities.

I think my head is going to explode. :gaah:

Maybe the best route for the city would be to contribute what it could in indirect costs — land, infrastructure, sewers, streets, parking, lighting, etc. Perhaps there could also be an issue with footings having to be drilled down into the riverfront soil to support the stadium structure.

I think that's a sensible approach to the city's role in something like this. Most of those items are what TIF was invented for, offsetting costs that exist in a city but would not exist in a suburban greenfield. I'd also add in amenities like boat docks etc. that I could support the city building that would support both the stadium and the surrounding area.

I agree that this stadium isn't here to compete with Appleton's (or more accurately, Grand Chute's) "Fox Cities Stadium." I think some people from Green Bay slightly resent Appleton for building the Outagamie Airport and the PAC, both of which directly competed with existing structures in the Green Bay area (namely Austin Straubel and the Weidner Center). I am not saying that I think this resentment is good or bad, I'm just saying that it exists in some people's minds.

However, I don't think building this type of baseball stadium could or should be viewed by people from Appleton as a revenge factor for the City of Green Bay, because I don't think it would severely affect the Timber Rattlers' attendance. First, they are two different levels of baseball - one is a Brewers' Class-A affiliate and another is a collegiate summer league. Second, the Bullfrogs are already drawing good crowds, so even if the new stadium draws 1000 more people every night, it wouldn't affect it much more than it did already. (That was a guess - I don't know the exact estimate at all). I think this is a fairly large metropolitan area, and it should be able to adequately support both teams.

One other thing I just thought of was that maybe the Bullfrogs, or the City, could look into selling naming rights for the stadium. I think it could really help offset the cost, and that company could look very good if the stadium turned out well with positive public reception.

some of us have mentioned that they prefer to upgrade the current location over time as a growth method. I still think the empty brownfield site along Broadway and north of elevated Mason is best with a completely new stadium...because it would be a multiuse facility which would hopefully make it cost effective. Then the ambiance of the river adds tremendous value. Heck there could even be a July 4th night game before/during/or after the fireworks to make a full night of activities. Add to that the dinner cruise boat that could dock, load/unload customers at the stadium.

The only difference between the Bullfrogs and the Rattlers IS the facility..!! The baseball game itself is secondary. Green Bay has the opportunity to build the second best baseball/multi-use stadium in Wisconsin, second only to Miller Park. That's a pretty incredible opportunity to really put Green Bay on the map as a true all-around sports/baseball town.

some of us have mentioned that they prefer to upgrade the current location over time as a growth method. I still think the empty brownfield site along Broadway and north of elevated Mason is best with a completely new stadium...because it would be a multiuse facility which would hopefully make it cost effective. Then the ambiance of the river adds tremendous value. Heck there could even be a July 4th night game before/during/or after the fireworks to make a full night of activities. Add to that the dinner cruise boat that could dock, load/unload customers at the stadium.


We already have an incomplete multi-use facility downtown called Leicht Festival Grounds. A Thursday night concert series is all go for the season. I think the city should explore expanding that site with restroom facilities that can also be used in the Winter for ice skating. We have four seasons and I think the brownfield site should be left for a development that operates all of them. Joannes will work fine for decades as a single season facility.

The only difference between the Bullfrogs and the Rattlers IS the facility..!! The baseball game itself is secondary. Green Bay has the opportunity to build the second best baseball/multi-use stadium in Wisconsin, second only to Miller Park. That's a pretty incredible opportunity to really put Green Bay on the map as a true all-around sports/baseball town.

So there we have it. It isn't about the baseball game, it's about how great the park is. Well, if you want your big expensive park to play in, give me 20 years of giving back to the community and winning seasons and then I'll tell you that you've got another 50 years to go.

I got more curious about other stadiums in this league. Here are some links that show the "birds eye" views of some of the stadiums, most in Wisconsin. I think there are some pretty neat ballparks in other cities, in this league.

Wisconsin Woodchucks (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=rgw4r77hy0p3&style=b&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&scene=39220087&encType=1)

Madison Mallards (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=r5nmbd7jkgss&style=b&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&scene=20533364&encType=1)

LaCrosse Loggers (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=r95h5v7cw5m9&style=b&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&scene=26028933&encType=1)

Eau Claire Express (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=rg14jc7c60fs&style=b&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&scene=28653098&encType=1)

Duluth Huskies (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=rss3ph79n687&style=b&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&scene=20489024&encType=1)

Waterloo Bucks (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=r2jm7w793fs5&style=b&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&scene=28690555&encType=1)

And the current GB Bullfrogs stadium (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=rdhmqk7p0ktd&style=b&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&scene=15774396&encType=1) at Joannes Park. Let's face it: The current Bullfrogs stadium, while not a bad location and good for High School and Legion games, just isn't in the same ballpark (pardon the pun) as the stadiums that the other teams in the league have, although of course some of these others are apparently used by other teams as well.

I am struggling to think about what other events the Brownfield Ballpark might be used for.

The only difference between the Bullfrogs and the Rattlers IS the facility..!! The baseball game itself is secondary. Green Bay has the opportunity to build the second best baseball/multi-use stadium in Wisconsin, second only to Miller Park. That's a pretty incredible opportunity to really put Green Bay on the map as a true all-around sports/baseball town.

This is, quite possibly, the most stupid thing I have seen written on here. It's basically an argument to build a facility for the facility's sake. Here's one difference: 60+ home games a year for the Rattlers versus 30+ for the Frogs. Here's another, 30+ years of history for the Rattlers versus, what are we at now, 3 for the Bullfrogs. Here's another: professional baseball for the Rattlers versus amateur for the Bullfrogs. If you are a municipality looking at assisting a team with a park, do you think there's a difference between an established team that plays twice as many games versus a new team that plays half as many? I sure do.

Look, I'll say it again, I don't think a new stadium is a bad idea. I do think new stands at the current location is the best option, but downtown could be great. But let's be rational about this and not just make up arguments that bear no resemblance to reality.

I am struggling to think about what other events the Brownfield Ballpark might be used for.

Me too. And the other events have to be events that wouldn't/couldn't be held elsewhere downtown. That's the real challenge. Baseball stadiums don't lend themselves all the readily to other events. The layout of the stands are so baseball oriented. I'd be curious how many non-baseball events are held at Fox Cities Stadium in a given year.

This is, quite possibly, the most stupid thing I have seen written on here. It's basically an argument to build a facility for the facility's sake. Here's one difference: 60+ home games a year for the Rattlers versus 30+ for the Frogs. Here's another, 30+ years of history for the Rattlers versus, what are we at now, 3 for the Bullfrogs. Here's another: professional baseball for the Rattlers versus amateur for the Bullfrogs. If you are a municipality looking at assisting a team with a park, do you think there's a difference between an established team that plays twice as many games versus a new team that plays half as many? I sure do.

Look, I'll say it again, I don't think a new stadium is a bad idea. I do think new stands at the current location is the best option, but downtown could be great. But let's be rational about this and not just make up arguments that bear no resemblance to reality.

Wow, Danillo!! In all the years I've read your many posts, I've never seen you get so worked up like this!

I have a hypothesis that the so-called "ifyoubuildit" is actually YOU, as one of your other personalities, your alter-ego. Maybe since development is slow, you decided to spice things up a little bit here? :nuts:

From Jeff Mirkes on behalf of Downtown Green Bay, Inc.

Anyone going?


Downtown Green Bay Residential & Retail Open House

A unique open house to view residential and retail space within a chip shot of the CityDeck on Thursday, May 21st from 3 p.m. - 7 p.m.

The free event allows you to check out new and existing space in the core of downtown Green Bay near the CityDeck, a soon-to-be major downtown attraction and amenity.

Participating locations include:

*City Center at Washington (Cherry Street Ramp retail space, Cherry and Washington Street)

*Flats on the Fox (two retail units, 335 N. Washington Street)

*Riverfront Loft Condominiums (Cherry and Washington Street)

*The WaterMark (retail and residential, Pine and Washington Street)

*Riverside Place Condominiums (118 S. Washington Street)

Balloons signify participating locations and maps will be provided. Attendees will enjoy light snacks and refreshments at all retail and residential locations. If you are a business entrepreneur, business development professional or interested in downtown living you can't miss this opportunity!

Parking conveniently located at the Cherry Street Ramp or the Adams Street lot in downtown Green Bay.

The only difference between the Bullfrogs and the Rattlers IS the facility..!! The baseball game itself is secondary. Green Bay has the opportunity to build the second best baseball/multi-use stadium in Wisconsin, second only to Miller Park. That's a pretty incredible opportunity to really put Green Bay on the map as a true all-around sports/baseball town.

Is this a joke? Enticing people to go see a baseball game because of a great stadium would make Green Bay a great baseball town? I would say it is the other way around: Demand for more seating at the Bullfrogs games, despite the current sub-par stadium, shows that Green Bay can be a baseball town. Stadiums don't make great baseball towns... knowledgable baseball fans do.

Why should Green Bay have (and importantly, pay for!) the second-best baseball stadium in the state when logically it should have the fourth-best stadium in the state? (Milwaukee Brewers #1, Class-A Rattlers #2, Madison Mallards with a bigger metro area #3, then Green Bay #4)

People here keep saying that the brownfield site is downtown. I disagree. Maybe in 20 or 30 years it'll be at the edge of downtown, but it isn't right now. It'll be in the middle of nowhere with nothing surrounding it but industrial buildings and parking lots. People aren't going to be any more enticed to do something downtown before or after a game than they are at Joannes. At least in Joannes you are in the middle of a neighborhood.

I haven't really seen anyone mention that Joannes already has a view of a river in the outfield, which is much touted for the brownfield site. While I cannot argue that a stadium at the brownfield site would have nice views and opportunities for boat interaction, Joannes already offers decent views and a nice setting.

Here's my proposal: Take the $15 million the mayor mentioned and put $2 million into improvements at Joannes. That has got to go a long way in improving and expanding the seating. Then take the remaining $13 million and install the downtown trolley loop (4 miles) that Danillo and I proposed a few months ago. (Dousman/Walnut/Baird/Main/Webster/University/Main/Dousman) That would do a heck of a lot more for downtown than a new baseball stadium at the brownfield site. Plus it would solve the parking problem at Joannes and easily enable fans to do something downtown before or after the game.

The only difference between the Bullfrogs and the Rattlers IS the facility..!! The baseball game itself is secondary. Green Bay has the opportunity to build the second best baseball/multi-use stadium in Wisconsin, second only to Miller Park. That's a pretty incredible opportunity to really put Green Bay on the map as a true all-around sports/baseball town.


I will give you this. When Miller Park opened, attendance went WAY up. For a year. Everyone wanted to go see the new stadium. BUT, if the product on the field is not good, people are not going to go back. A new facility, no matter how impressive, may draw "one-timers", but without good baseball they're not going to come back.

I'm only going to say this. Your theory about the facility is akin to a really hot girl with no brains or personality. It might be fun to date her for a while, but you ain't gonna marry her...

I'm going.........to the open house...........

I will give you this. When Miller Park opened, attendance went WAY up. For a year. Everyone wanted to go see the new stadium. BUT, if the product on the field is not good, people are not going to go back. A new facility, no matter how impressive, may draw "one-timers", but without good baseball they're not going to come back.

I'm only going to say this. Your theory about the facility is akin to a really hot girl with no brains or personality. It might be fun to date her for a while, but you ain't gonna marry her...

I didn't say anything about bad baseball. I read the Bullfrogs have 9 guys from the 2007 team now playing professional baseball and one would expect some guys from last years team will be drafted in June so the quality of baseball speaks for itself..!! What I meant was beyond the game itself the entertainment, atmosphere and everything else a Bullfrogs game offers would be substantially enhanced and they could offer the consumer a lot more in a newer, more modern facility.

NEWRails Newsletter 2.

May 20 2009. This email is being sent to anyone who identified themselves as supporting the reinstatement of Passenger Rail Services in the fox Valley. If you do not want to receive information from this group just reply with unsubscribe in the subject line.

NEWRails to hold meeting in Appleton.

The citizens group NEWRails which promotes Passenger Rail Service in the Fox Valley, connecting Appleton to Green Bay, Milwaukee and Chicago is to hold a public meeting at Appleton Public Library 225 N Oneida St at 6.00 p.m. Wednesday 27th May

Speakers will include group President Paul Linzmeyer, a Fox Valley business Executive. Linzmeyer said in a statement

“Passenger rail will give residents of North East Wisconsin quick affordable access to the largest economic engine of the Midwest – the Chicago- Milwaukee Market.

Business travelers will be able to work on the trains instead of driving, or taking expensive uncomfortable flights. Families will be able to relax taking excursions, whether locally to attractions in downtown Chicago, or from Illinois to visit the EAA in Oshkosh, the PAC in Appleton or the Packers in Green Bay”

www.newrails.org <http://www.newrails.org/> is our new website.

Please check it out. It is a work in progress and will get prettier. Thanks to Matthew Rudnick for getting it up and running. Please sign up at the site as a supporter. This will be used as our mailing list in the future. You signing up your self http://www.newrails.org/join.php will save others a lot of work. You may get this newsletter twice for which I apologize in advance.

Over 800 Supporters.

Since our launch meeting over 800 people have signed up as supporters. This is a great response. I thank Cindy Carter, Trish Tucker, Steve Delfosse Judy Laskowski and Bill Weedman Jnr for their help at the Titletown Train Show.


Report of April 16 Meeting. The Fox Valley Passenger Rail group met at 6.30 p.m. Thursday at Titletown Dousman Street Green Bay. Approx 30 people present

A Formal Resolution. “To Establish a Citizens Group to Promote the Return of Passenger Rail Service between Milwaukee and Green Bay via Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, and Appleton.” Was agreed without dissent

Election of President. Paul Linzmeyer
Election of Organizing Secretary - Frank Ingram
4 Adoption of Statement of Objectives

To support the most practical and efficient method of restoring passenger rail service between Milwaukee and Green Bay via Appleton connecting with service to Chicago which can be achieved at the earliest time.
To aim for an initial service with a maximum speed of 79mph and thereafter to promote incremental improvements to the service.
To actively campaign for public, State and Federal Government support of such proposals.
To support, whenever practical, the efforts of others to extend passenger rail service in the Midwest with which this service will connect.

After discussion Agreed

Adoption of organizing structure.

Executive Committee consisting President, Organizing Secretary, Convenor of each Working and Local Group.
Working Groups covering Advocacy, Publicity and Campaigns, and Technical matters. Each working group to include any supporter who volunteers to help, with a Convenor appointed by the General Meeting (Executive to fill any vacancy).
Local Groups. Each supporter will be invited to nearest local group meeting, with a Convenor appointed by the General Meeting (Executive to fill any vacancy). Groups to be established Green Bay, Appleton, Oshkosh and Fond du Lac and as determined by the Executive.

Terms of Reference for Working Groups
Advocacy. Organizing meeting with Legislators, State and Federal Officials, Cities and Counties, Chambers of Commerce etc.
Publicity and Campaigns. Organizes publicity to the public including website, stalls and printed material.
Technical. Investigates proposals, suggest improvements and challenges objections.

Convenors organize group meetings and activities, minute discussions, report to Executive. Groups may appoint an ad hoc chair for meetings if necessary.

Annual Meeting. An Annual meeting will be held in the spring of each year and no later than 15 months after the previous annual meeting.

After discussion Agreed

Election of Convenors. Technical David Schwengel, Publicity Sam Froelich Advocacy Frank Ingram, Green Bay Trish Tucker, Appleton Charlotte Foth/ Cindy Carter (Note subsequently Charlotte Foth withdrew).

7 The following volunteered to serve on Working Groups

Technical. Steven Solway, John Colwall, Steve Delfosse

Publicity Matthew Rudnick,

Advocacy Trish Tucker Kathy Riley Steve Solway Judy Laskowski Mary Kay Cornelissen

Adoption of Name. Suggestions received so far:- Future 400 Railline; (The) Southern 400 Railline; NEWisconsin Rail; NEW Rail – serving the Fox Valley. NEW Green Bay Rail, Fox Valley Rail. After discussion it was agreed to adopt the name “NEWRail” (subsequently found that the name was already registered as a website so “NEWRails” was registered). During discussion it was noted that the 400 name has a lot of resonance with older Wisconsinites and should be used in literature aimed at them.

Me too. And the other events have to be events that wouldn't/couldn't be held elsewhere downtown. That's the real challenge. Baseball stadiums don't lend themselves all the readily to other events. The layout of the stands are so baseball oriented. I'd be curious how many non-baseball events are held at Fox Cities Stadium in a given year.

From the website of the TRats/Fox Cities Stadium - "Concerts held at the stadium over the years include The Allman Brothers Band, Trace Adkins, Chicago, Clay Aiken, The Moody Blues, Michael Bolton, The Fox Valley Symphony, and The Beach Boys."

So assuming this is a partial list... assume 2 concerts per year.

Also 1-2 charity baseball events and the WIAA State Baseball tourney and college world series.

The charity event MIGHT move or have a second night...the Tourneys will most likely NOT move. So even the Fox Cities Stadium only is used about 65-70 times a year. All in 2+ seasons (part of spring, summer and part of fall). For their concerts they set up the stage in the outfield and the people stand or sit on the field area. (as shown on the pic on the website - http://wisconsin.timberrattlers.milb.com/images/2008/02/25/58aHmBnE.jpg)

Again I would be in favor of a 4 seasons public use as the first choice. A mixed use residential/business second. The stadium would be third in my book.

In reaction to my previous comments - I was not directly comparing the Packers to the Bullfrogs except for the level of the sport vs the cost of the stadium. I was trying to make the point that city/county investment for a professional team that brings in national recognition is one thing. To spend 10 million on a stadium for college guys to play over the summer on their break is a whole other thing.

BTW the 10-12 million figure the paper got was from the preliminary figures given by Mr Royal. That includes not just a stadium but the restaurant and other things he wants.

DMS

People here keep saying that the brownfield site is downtown. I disagree. Maybe in 20 or 30 years it'll be at the edge of downtown, but it isn't right now. It'll be in the middle of nowhere with nothing surrounding it but industrial buildings and parking lots. People aren't going to be any more enticed to do something downtown before or after a game than they are at Joannes. At least in Joannes you are in the middle of a neighborhood.

I haven't really seen anyone mention that Joannes already has a view of a river in the outfield, which is much touted for the brownfield site. While I cannot argue that a stadium at the brownfield site would have nice views and opportunities for boat interaction, Joannes already offers decent views and a nice setting.

Here's my proposal: Take the $15 million the mayor mentioned and put $2 million into improvements at Joannes. That has got to go a long way in improving and expanding the seating. Then take the remaining $13 million and install the downtown trolley loop (4 miles) that Danillo and I proposed a few months ago. (Dousman/Walnut/Baird/Main/Webster/University/Main/Dousman) That would do a heck of a lot more for downtown than a new baseball stadium at the brownfield site. Plus it would solve the parking problem at Joannes and easily enable fans to do something downtown before or after the game.

It's not worth getting in an argument over, but many people would say the brownfield site is in the "downtown". Have you been on Broadway lately? There is a lot of good redevelopment easily within walking distance. Sardine Can, for example. The Brownfield site stadium would further encourage new development. The problem with the area on the south part of the broadway district right now is that there's no draw, no magnet...the brownfield stadium certainly would encourage that.

The "waterfront" at Joannes is nice, I agree with you. Just not the same sort of "splashdown home runs" and boat access. Joannes is accessible by canoe, kayak maybe. The brownfield site would have a lot more actual boat traffic, water taxis perhaps even to get people over there from the east side.

As for the trolley idea-- heck yeah, I agree with you on that as well. But I'd surmise that the general taxpaying public would be even MORE skeptical of a trolley than they would even a baseball stadium. Not to say we should give up on the idea. People just don't see it the same way we do, I think a lot more people could use some open-minded discussion about the matter rather than just jumping to judgement on that.

Wrong URL

Kavarna gets some stimulus money.

Redevelopment Authority approves stimulus projects (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090520/GPG0101/90520070/1978)

Press Gazette May 20, 2009

A child advocacy center, a restaurant and a neighborhood center are among projects in Green Bay to be paid for by federal government stimulus money.
Advertisement

The Redevelopment Authority today approved spending of $267,161 available from community development block grants under the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009.

The money has strings attached. It can be spent only for certain things – job creation and infrastructure, for example – and it has to be spent soon.

“We are on a really short timeline. They want us to get it out the door,” said Cheryl Renier-Wigg, neighborhood development coordinator.

The timeline is short. The city will immediately publish information on the project, allowing just enough time for a seven-day public comment period before a City Council meeting on June 2. The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development wants plans in hand by June 5, said Rob Strong, city planning director.

The projects are:
— $100,000 for renovation of 143 N. Broadway, which will be the new home to Kavarna coffee house and vegetarian restaurant and Parisi's Delicatessen.

Jami Harrington, economic development specialist for the city, said the restaurant was unable to secure bank financing for the entire project, so the city is providing a bridge loan from its revolving loan fund.

She said Kavarna will create the equivalent of 6.5 new jobs.

The restaurant, currently at 112 S. Broadway, will renovate the Egyptian revival building on North Broadway. Kavarna is owned by Alex and Linda Galt. It opened in 1999.

— $75,000 to the Child Advocacy Center, which plans to buy and renovate a building to consolidate its services. The total cost is estimated to be $3 million.

Renier-Wigg said the Child Advocacy Center currently provides services at multiple sites and would like to consolidate. Strong said the center was within $200,000 of being able to begin the project.

The center provides services for child abuse investigation and care, including medical exams, forensic interview, advocacy and child and family therapy.

— $40,000 for teaching low- and moderate-income youths the skills required to get and keep jobs. The city will request proposals from organizations to conduct the program.

— $52,161 to modify a house at North Irwin and Harvey streets to use as a community police station, parole and probation office and Neighborhood Association center. Renier-Wigg said probation and parole would pay rent.

The stimulus money is in addition to $965,251 in block grants and $556,236 in Home program funding the city received for 2009. Block grants are spent in such areas as parks, public works, homebuyer counseling, community service interns and community impact programs. Home program money is used to buy and rehab houses, homebuyer assistance and impact programs.

It's not worth getting in an argument over, but many people would say the brownfield site is in the "downtown". Have you been on Broadway lately? There is a lot of good redevelopment easily within walking distance. Sardine Can, for example. The Brownfield site stadium would further encourage new development. The problem with the area on the south part of the broadway district right now is that there's no draw, no magnet...the brownfield stadium certainly would encourage that.

The "waterfront" at Joannes is nice, I agree with you. Just not the same sort of "splashdown home runs" and boat access. Joannes is accessible by canoe, kayak maybe. The brownfield site would have a lot more actual boat traffic, water taxis perhaps even to get people over there from the east side.

As for the trolley idea-- heck yeah, I agree with you on that as well. But I'd surmise that the general taxpaying public would be even MORE skeptical of a trolley than they would even a baseball stadium. Not to say we should give up on the idea. People just don't see it the same way we do, I think a lot more people could use some open-minded discussion about the matter rather than just jumping to judgement on that.

A trolley, light rail, people mover, or PRT (Personal Rapid Transit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_rapid_transit)) would be a great addition to our city.

I would like to see a PRT encircle the downtown and surrounding neighborhoods, as well as Bay Park Square, St. Norbert College, NWTC, the zoo, the casino, the stadiums, East Town Mall, the hospitals, UWGB, De Pere, Bay Beach, and the airport. It would be faster than a city bus, trolley, or a light rail, it would also be energy efficient, convenient, and would never interfere with the traffic below it.
It would be owned by Green Bay METRO, and would possibly have a central terminal downtown where the ghost of Port Plaza currently stands, if it would become a reality. It's only a pipe dream right now, since it carries a hefty price tag.

You can also pick your destinations at the terminal, which is also a cool feature, since they're computer-directed.

Just imagine something like this soaring past Lambeau Field in the 2050s...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/ULTra_PRT_testing.jpg/800px-ULTra_PRT_testing.jpg

Check out this video to see ULTra in action! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epiiPy9kAho)

I think that if Green Bay were to have one, it would be called the "Packermover."

If they can get one in Morgantown, West Virginia, they could get one here.

Green Bay is so slow to innovate I'm surprised we're not still feeding our people movers carrots and oats.

Green Bay is so slow to innovate I'm surprised we're not still feeding our people movers carrots and oats.

http://static.flickr.com/110/294605409_581f96310f_o.jpg

Green Bay is so slow to innovate I'm surprised we're not still feeding our people movers carrots and oats.

When I was a kid I thought we were supposed to have flying cars and robot maids like the Jetsons by now. And the main employers were going to be Spacely Sprockets and Cogswell's Cogs. And it turns out to be paper converting and casinos.

I was at the downtown condo open house last night making mighty use of my fisheye lens. Once I get my photos back I shall share the expansive yet distorted views of downtown!

Come to think of it, I regularly share my expansive yet distorted views of downtown!

Good seeing you last night Dan....

A trolley, light rail, people mover, or PRT (Personal Rapid Transit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_rapid_transit)) would be a great addition to our city.

I would like to see a PRT encircle the downtown and surrounding neighborhoods, as well as Bay Park Square, St. Norbert College, NWTC, the zoo, the casino, the stadiums, East Town Mall, the hospitals, UWGB, De Pere, Bay Beach, and the airport. It would be faster than a city bus, trolley, or a light rail, it would also be energy efficient, convenient, and would never interfere with the traffic below it.
It would be owned by Green Bay METRO, and would possibly have a central terminal downtown where the ghost of Port Plaza currently stands, if it would become a reality. It's only a pipe dream right now, since it carries a hefty price tag.

You can also pick your destinations at the terminal, which is also a cool feature, since they're computer-directed.

Just imagine something like this soaring past Lambeau Field in the 2050s...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/ULTra_PRT_testing.jpg/800px-ULTra_PRT_testing.jpg

Check out this video to see ULTra in action! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epiiPy9kAho)

I think that if Green Bay were to have one, it would be called the "Packermover."

If they can get one in Morgantown, West Virginia, they could get one here.

I'm on the fence on this one.

I struggle to see how this would be better. The purpose of public transportation is to move more people with less vehicles. If a couple people are in one of these at any given time, it doesn't seem too much different than driving a car.

I think that the idea of selecting your destination is bad. You're on a fixed track & can only stop at stations, so the only thing it would accomplish would be to blow past people waiting at a stop so you can get to your destination a couple minutes sooner. If anything, it sounds more like an "express" button on an elevator.

I'm on the fence on this one.

I struggle to see how this would be better. The purpose of public transportation is to move more people with less vehicles. If a couple people are in one of these at any given time, it doesn't seem too much different than driving a car.

I think that the idea of selecting your destination is bad. You're on a fixed track & can only stop at stations, so the only thing it would accomplish would be to blow past people waiting at a stop so you can get to your destination a couple minutes sooner. If anything, it sounds more like an "express" button on an elevator.
I was questioning much of this as well. Espicially on the fact that if they put 40,000 of these things on a track, a station holds 5 pods, you have 5 pods there already at the station, and here comes the 6, what happens? And also what if you have a large sum of these pods going to the same destnination, how long will they have to wait? Will they back up other pods that are not going there? Is there a chance these can crash in a congested area? I'm more comfortable using a light rail than these things I think.

I'm hearing through the rumor mill that there may be plans afoot down the road for the former West Theater on W. Walnut in the Broadway District. Just rumors.

I'm hearing through the rumor mill that there may be plans afoot down the road for the former West Theater on W. Walnut in the Broadway District. Just rumors.

are you talking about the Pitcher Show/ "Five-Six"?

I was questioning much of this as well. Espicially on the fact that if they put 40,000 of these things on a track, a station holds 5 pods, you have 5 pods there already at the station, and here comes the 6, what happens? And also what if you have a large sum of these pods going to the same destnination, how long will they have to wait? Will they back up other pods that are not going there? Is there a chance these can crash in a congested area? I'm more comfortable using a light rail than these things I think.
If you've been to WVU, or Seattle, you'd probably have a better idea of what PRTs are like, and what I'm talking about. The pods usually go around other pods when a stations in use. There's only a select number of pods in the entire fleet so I doubt it would be much trouble, if two, or three are used at a time. As it clearly stated in the video, "it's quick, comfortable and convenient."

And speaking of light rails, I don't think we have enough train tracks to support that type of mass transit, since many of them have been decommissioned on the west side near Military Ave., as well as near the East River.

I knew some people would have a mixed reaction to the idea, but if I were the mayor of this city, I would support the idea as viable alternative to ground transportation. We have to stop living in the past and start looking to the future. I might not like the ULTra design as much as I do the WVU PRT's design, which has a more bus-like appearance.
http://www.progressiveengineer.com/pewebbackissues2002/PEWeb%2024%20Mar%2002-2/24photos/PRT1.jpg

I was questioning much of this as well. Espicially on the fact that if they put 40,000 of these things on a track, a station holds 5 pods, you have 5 pods there already at the station, and here comes the 6, what happens? And also what if you have a large sum of these pods going to the same destnination, how long will they have to wait? Will they back up other pods that are not going there? Is there a chance these can crash in a congested area? I'm more comfortable using a light rail than these things I think.

They don't put 40,000 on a track!

BTW, I found another video about the benefits of "pod cars":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meB94GURhSM

...and a website:
http://www.personalrapidtransit.com/

are you talking about the Pitcher Show/ "Five-Six"?

What kinda of rumors? I would be interested, I think the original idea of the Five-Six being a jazz club would have been fantastic for that location. A decent restaurant for lunch and dinner and live jazz in the evenings.

I was a resident/neighbor that fought their hip hop nights and was glad when it closed. It's too bad that a small percentage of out of towners that felt they could treat the neighborhood and the city of Green Bay as a whole in a disrespectful way. Do you really need to yell to each other at the gas station and play your car stereos at the highest level possible?

I was sad that people stayed away from the Historic West in the afternoons and evenings when it showed first-run independent movies. It's too bad people in this town can't see a building can have two uses by two different groups at different times.

Anyway... so what are the rumors? :)

I'm hearing through the rumor mill that there may be plans afoot down the road for the former West Theater on W. Walnut in the Broadway District. Just rumors.

I'd be interested to know what type of plans. If they include making it a successful drinking establishment there's going to be trouble same as Five Six. Drunken rowdy patrons acting disrespectful. The Sardine Can just around the corner gets complaints from neighbors for loud music, numerous police calls and is a good example of the type of business that made Broadway undesirable in the first place. If the parties with the plans for 405 W. Walnut don't want to lose out on their investment and get closed down within a year, they better have a better one than Nick Barnett.

I agree with dmsklutz that the idea of making the location a "jazz" club is a good one if it can provide for a lower intensity demographic. But every time in the past 20 years that Ive gone to a new club that bills itself as a "jazz" club, it wasn't. I guess around here "jazz" equates to a loud rockin' blues band. I get my jazz fix by listening to Wisconsin Public Radio Friday and Saturday nights for jazz with Bob Parlocha (http://www.jazzwithbobparlocha.com/) and on Wednesday nights for the Jazz Odyssey (http://www.jazzodc.com/) show produced locally by Chris Kuborn.

What I've heard is that the proposal is to give the theater to On Broadway for use as a multi-use performance space. I haven't heard how they would administer it, but it would be a non-profit facility. The challenge would be to cover occupancy costs.

Good to see a lot of conversation on here again. It atleast keeps things interesting while nothing is going on development wise. A couple of questions

1. Any news yet on when the Watermark will begin construction. I know Vetter said by the end of May. I just hope this doesnt turn into a situation list Astor Place were when he doesn't make his end of May deadline he says end of June, then end of July and so on.

2. Also any information regarding stimulus funds for the mall demo?

Students to show support for rail today in Ashwaubenon

Forty college students will hit the road this week to show their support for a high-speed rail proposal by taking a tour around the Wisconsin.

Students from the Wisconsin Public Interest Research Group will be stopping in Ashwaubenon at 10 a.m. today at the National Railroad Museum, before hitting Appleton and Oshkosh. The group will then travel to Milwaukee, Madison and La Crosse from Tuesday to Thursday.

At each stop, students will show their support for the high-speed rail, a proposal to connect major Midwestern cities with rail transportation.

— Press Gazette

What I've heard is that the proposal is to give the theater to On Broadway for use as a multi-use performance space. I haven't heard how they would administer it, but it would be a non-profit facility. The challenge would be to cover occupancy costs.

That's about what I've heard. Yes, we're talking about what later became the West Pitcher Show and Five-Six.

Students to show support for rail today in Ashwaubenon

Forty college students will hit the road this week to show their support for a high-speed rail proposal by taking a tour around the Wisconsin.

Students from the Wisconsin Public Interest Research Group will be stopping in Ashwaubenon at 10 a.m. today at the National Railroad Museum, before hitting Appleton and Oshkosh. The group will then travel to Milwaukee, Madison and La Crosse from Tuesday to Thursday.

At each stop, students will show their support for the high-speed rail, a proposal to connect major Midwestern cities with rail transportation.

— Press Gazette

Did anyone here make this? Did any news media cover it? I would have liked to have gone.

But again, I'd be happy with 80 MPH trains. I don't need "high speed" (defined as 110 MPH, sometimes even faster) At least not to start with. From what I understand, the cost goes up exponentially to upgrade the tracks from 80 MPH to 110 MPH. What I like about the local NEWRails group is that they advocate starting with the 80 MPH train, which is much mroe sensible.

But again, I'd be happy with 80 MPH trains. I don't need "high speed" (defined as 110 MPH, sometimes even faster) At least not to start with. From what I understand, the cost goes up exponentially to upgrade the tracks from 80 MPH to 110 MPH. What I like about the local NEWRails group is that they advocate starting with the 80 MPH train, which is much mroe sensible.

It isn't more sensible if the slower speed makes it uncompetitive with cars and then the general public sees it as a boondoggle.

There is a small number of people who will take the train no matter the speed: people without cars, people who can't or won't drive, train nuts, and extreme environmentalists. But you won't get the general public to try the train unless it is close to the driving time. According to the MWRRS (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/state/docs/mwrri-wi-brochure.pdf), 110 mph MAX trains will average about 71 mph from Milwaukee to Green Bay. That is very close to what a car does. But if you're talking about 79 mph MAX trains, the average speed will be more like 51 mph, which isn't going to convince many regular people to try it.

If the general public sees intercity rail as a boondoggle, that's not going to bode well for expanded rail service. I'd rather see rail get delayed a little bit if it means doing it right and getting public opinion behind rail expansion later on.

I think the solution to that problem has already been suggested - but I forgot which site I actually read it on. It is to connect the major "hub" cities with high-speed rail, and to subsequently connect smaller cities (such as Green Bay) to the "hubs" (such as Milwaukee or Chicago) with a lower-speed train - somewhere around the 80 mph MAX which Puant suggested. I think this makes a lot of sense - and maybe the 80 mph systems could be planned so that they could be reconfigured fairly easily to support "high-speed" in the future if the market exists for it. Obviously some of these lines already exist - with Amtrak - but others would have to be set up, as is the case in Green Bay.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/gbbullfrogs-243.gif

If you're so inclined, pick up a copy of today's Press-Gazette. Page two of the sports section is a nifty, colorful season preview of the Bullfrogs, with the team's schedule, upcoming opening games, roster, standings, ticket info and a Q&A with Jeff Royle about the Bullfrogs past, present and future.

Key quote from Royle: "I have in no way, shape or form asked anybody to give us a stadium or have I asked the taxpayers to pay for a stadium. All I've said from the get-go is, from the very start, it's always been in the back of my mind that if we continue to grow as a franchise in the manner I think we're going to, we're quickly going to outgrow Joannes as it is today.

I read the article in the GBPG online today. I was very impressed by the way Royale worded his remarks. It's almost as if he was reading this message board :-)

I think Royle did a nice job in the Press-Gazette interview.

In my opinion, he does deserve a lot of credit for what he's invested into the Bullfrogs and the city.

I was looking over some of my old models and got to wondering if this "town square" idea or any other idea like it is still on the table. Anyone know? Danillo?

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/Baylake_TownSquare_Plaza.jpg

The old Boston Store building......why do the seagulls like to sh!t on it? I have my own ideas...

The old Boston Store building......why do the seagulls like to sh!t on it? I have my own ideas...



If only we could convert it to bio-fuel, and run the city busses on it.

I was looking over some of my old models and got to wondering if this "town square" idea or any other idea like it is still on the table. Anyone know? Danillo?

I don't think it's dead at all. I think the general idea has quite a bit of support at city hall. The issue is the parking. If a ramp gets built attached to or next to the back of Baylake Bank as part of the redevelopment of the mall site, then parking is no longer an issue. I think there's also an issue of not wanting to spread fund raising etc. too thin with the CityDeck under construction. So, get the CityDeck done, get the mall redeveloped, and I think there's a very reasonable chance that some sort of plaza gets done on that lot. I don't think there's a current plan for it that's ready to go forward, but I believe there's support for the idea.

I'm in favor of upgrading Joannes and the parking problem can be solved by eliminating the soccer field in the right side of the photo. Post-game traffic easily gets on Main St and quickly disperses. But I wonder if people would be turned off by having to walk that far over two bridges to the stadium. I remember as a 'ute' (My Cousin Vinnie) I use to park where that soccer field is to go to Blue Ribbons games it was convenient place to park. With that said they still need to move the team from that area. If not downtown something off 172 in the Bellevue area would be a great place to relocate.

http://greenbayphorum.com/gifs/ballpark.jpg

Look, I'll say it again, I don't think a new stadium is a bad idea. I do think new stands at the current location is the best option, but downtown could be great. But let's be rational about this and not just make up arguments that bear no resemblance to reality.

Lets be real shall we. Downtown is dead. They have killed it with stupid planning and dumb ideas. Their little yuppie utopia world that some wanted to brng there has failed. The Mayor has failed, the planners have failed it is a joke down there. They need to step back and allow people with ideas and vision that will actually work take over. A ballpark is a perfect fit, a movie complex would be a great fit a organic grocery store a waste of space, one more coffee/soy biscuit shop a waste of space. Start bring famlies back downtown and it will rebound keep going with the dumb ideas they now have and stay on the path of failure.

Gbmphillips, you really don't know what you're talking about. Evidently you don't like coffeehouses, but you're really making a mistake if you believe that everyone shares your preferences. Go down to Kavarna, for example, and you'll find a broad range of people including many familes enjoying themselves. You seem to think that you're typical of something, and perhaps you are, but you really aren't in a position to project your preferences on to the GB population with any kind of realism. You remind me of the guy who said thatObama really isn't that popular if you don't count blacks or women, as if these weren't also part of the American electorate. You need to step back and realize that the families who do patronize downtown businesses are also part of the Green Bay community even if they have different tastes than yours.

Lets be real shall we. Downtown is dead. They have killed it with stupid planning and dumb ideas. Their little yuppie utopia world that some wanted to brng there has failed. The Mayor has failed, the planners have failed it is a joke down there. They need to step back and allow people with ideas and vision that will actually work take over. A ballpark is a perfect fit, a movie complex would be a great fit a organic grocery store a waste of space, one more coffee/soy biscuit shop a waste of space. Start bring famlies back downtown and it will rebound keep going with the dumb ideas they now have and stay on the path of failure.

Wow, what a (nonsensical) rant. First, I would be curious what specifically you utilize downtown, and, if there isn't anything, why. I am not doing this to disagree or prove a point, but more trying to understand what it lacks. As for the family idea, DT is doing exactly that as we speak. The Childrens' Museum and the City Deck are targeted directly at families. Tearing down the mall and (possibly) restoring the street grid will also impact families as it will be much easier to navigate. Another recent post about the plaza is another family-oriented item. My opinion is going in the opposite direction and has increased significantly over the past years, both on the east and west sides of the river. Look at all the new residence options, new commercial space, and new restaurants. This is not even including the long-time businesses located DT that continue to do good business. I agree that there are still plenty of opportunities at improvement, but I don't believe it has been a failure.

Wow, what a (nonsensical) rant. First, I would be curious what specifically you utilize downtown, and, if there isn't anything, why. I am not doing this to disagree or prove a point, but more trying to understand what it lacks. As for the family idea, DT is doing exactly that as we speak. The Childrens' Museum and the City Deck are targeted directly at families. Tearing down the mall and (possibly) restoring the street grid will also impact families as it will be much easier to navigate. Another recent post about the plaza is another family-oriented item. My opinion is going in the opposite direction and has increased significantly over the past years, both on the east and west sides of the river. Look at all the new residence options, new commercial space, and new restaurants. This is not even including the long-time businesses located DT that continue to do good business. I agree that there are still plenty of opportunities at improvement, but I don't believe it has been a failure.
Yes. I would like to see developments that are targeted towards families and tourists. I would like to see a downtown where technology teems with nature (much like the Hill Valley Courthouse Square we saw in the year 2015, in fictional Hill Valley, California, in the 1989 movie "Back to the Future Part II", if you know what I mean), like with lots of green grass, less concrete and asphalt downtown, beautiful buildings both new builds and historical landmark, trees, emphasis on pedestrian traffic, etc. I would definitely like to see our downtown transform into something like this in the twenty-teens:
http://www.filmfashion.nl/stills/backtothefuturepartii2.jpg
...only without the flying cars, floating skyway lights/signs, and those flying skateboards called hoverboards.
I think the buildings in Green Bay parallel the Hill Valley Courthouse in the BTTF trilogy are the Brown County Courthouse, the Port Plaza Towers/Hotel Northland, the Bellin Building, and the WBAY/Columbus Building, in the fact that they've been historical landmarks, in which everything has changed around them, throughout time, except the buildings themselves, while other buildings have changed overtime (some were even demolished!), these buildings still stood, through thick and thin. Right now, parts of our city look like Hill Valley 1985, including Velp Avenue, and Military Ave. near Perkins Park, as well the block near the Georgia Pacific mill on the west side of Green Bay near the Green Bay/Ashwaubenon border. Those places could regain their heyday in the next decade. Bay Park Square and East Town Mall (and previously, Port Plaza Mall) could be seen as a parallel to Twin Pines Mall (a.k.a. Lone Pine Mall). As was the case in the Back to the Future Trilogy, the city of Green Bay might regain its heyday, which would almost be similar to the one that it had in the 1950s, except with a larger population, and new technology, much like how Hill Valley did in Back to the Future II.

Lets be real shall we. Downtown is dead. They have killed it with stupid planning and dumb ideas. Their little yuppie utopia world that some wanted to brng there has failed. The Mayor has failed, the planners have failed it is a joke down there. They need to step back and allow people with ideas and vision that will actually work take over. A ballpark is a perfect fit, a movie complex would be a great fit a organic grocery store a waste of space, one more coffee/soy biscuit shop a waste of space. Start bring famlies back downtown and it will rebound keep going with the dumb ideas they now have and stay on the path of failure.

Alright so I don't normally add to discussion on this forum, but I had to mention something. In your post, you managed to include all of the following words (some more than once):

Dead
Killed
Stupid
Dumb
Failed
Joke
Waste of Space
Failure

No judgment, but that's a strong opinion.

I think the solution to that problem has already been suggested - but I forgot which site I actually read it on. It is to connect the major "hub" cities with high-speed rail, and to subsequently connect smaller cities (such as Green Bay) to the "hubs" (such as Milwaukee or Chicago) with a lower-speed train - somewhere around the 80 mph MAX which Puant suggested.

That sounds well and good, except that our hub cities don't have high-speed rail. So that's why I think the negative public perception of the low-speed GB to MKE train would override the advantages it would offer. A 110 mph MAX train line would at least be comparable to auto travel and it would be hard to be seen by most as a boondoggle.

With that said they still need to move the team from that [Joannes] area. If not downtown something off 172 in the Bellevue area would be a great place to relocate.

Why do they need to move the team from the Joannes area? If the stadium there is expanded, what makes it such a bad location?

That sounds well and good, except that our hub cities don't have high-speed rail. So that's why I think the negative public perception of the low-speed GB to MKE train would override the advantages it would offer. A 110 mph MAX train line would at least be comparable to auto travel and it would be hard to be seen by most as a boondoggle.

Kramerica,
While I agree with you in some regards, there are other factors to consider:

Bear in mind that upgrading the train speed to 110 MPH+ means that there will be fewer road crossings for cars to cross. Drivers won't like even fewer crossings...and it's expensive to upgrade signaling for faster trains (or to build over/underpasses). Some people living near the train might not be crazy about a bullet train rocketing through their backyards at 110 MPH+. People will cry "Boondoggle!" no matter what.

...in addition, the very high expense of tightening up the track tolerances and all sorts of other very costly steps required to get the train ready for 110 MPH. Again, I believe I heard that upgrading from 80 MPH to 110 is Exponentially more expensive. And for what? To shave off 20 minutes of travel time? I agree that "high speed" ought to be a long-term goal, but to say let's hold off on the whole project unless it starts at 110 right off the bat doesn't make sense to me, especially when there are other convenience factors that even "low speed" trains offer that cars don't (comfortable travel, no traffic to drive through, no parking to deal with, ability to get work done en route, ability to read or sleep, play with kids, have a drink, etc). Travel time isn't everything in my mind ,but I could be wrong.

GBMPHillips:

You once again graced us with your presence just to stir the pot. Is this you?

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/warm-milk.jpg

Why do they need to move the team from the Joannes area? If the stadium there is expanded, what makes it such a bad location?

The only squeaky wheel left is neighbors' complaints about the noise from fireworks which last just minutes. Easily greased with Royle showing up on their doorstep with a free four-pack of tickets to any game of choice.

I don't think it's dead at all. I think the general idea has quite a bit of support at city hall. The issue is the parking. If a ramp gets built attached to or next to the back of Baylake Bank as part of the redevelopment of the mall site, then parking is no longer an issue. I think there's also an issue of not wanting to spread fund raising etc. too thin with the CityDeck under construction. So, get the CityDeck done, get the mall redeveloped, and I think there's a very reasonable chance that some sort of plaza gets done on that lot. I don't think there's a current plan for it that's ready to go forward, but I believe there's support for the idea.

Thanks for the update, Dan.

Are they really considering adding yet another hulking ramp on the mall site?

Is anyone else here sick of parking ramps? I guess I'm a bit turned off by them, from a few standpoints (they're expensive to build & maintain, they're almost always ugly, and people generally don't like parking in them). I don't like surface parkign lots either because they reduce density/walkability/aesthetics....However,

What if, instead...

I've posted an image like this before, but thought I'd try again to see what you guys think about this concept:

Well over 100 new parking spots can be neatly tucked away behind the buildings to the north of the BayLake building when the mall is razed. Not to mention additional street parking. All while maintaining a good continuous street frontage of buildings and sidewalks as shown below:

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/20090527downtown_street_Grid_Parkin.jpg

It seems to me that something like shown above is the best and most cost-effective configuration. No new parking ramps are necessary. Few, if any, parking spaces are lost from what BayLake has right now, particularly if the plaza park includes some parking as shown on the post above (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=37364532&postcount=3546)...parking spots are actually gained.

sorry to repeat myself but I think these are concepts that someone should be considering, at least....

Alright so I don't normally add to discussion on this forum, but I had to mention something. In your post, you managed to include all of the following words (some more than once):

Dead
Killed
Stupid
Dumb
Failed
Joke
Waste of Space
Failure

No judgment, but that's a strong opinion.

I was in a bad mood when I posted that and really just had to vent...looking at the list you created I did a pretty darn good job, no wonder work went so well tonight.

Is anyone else here sick of parking ramps? I guess I'm a bit turned off by them, from a few standpoints (they're expensive to build & maintain, they're almost always ugly, and people generally don't like parking in them). I don't like surface parkign lots either because they reduce density/walkability/aesthetics...

I dont mind parking ramps, I think that the way this city and really this region are setup, parking ramps are a must. If you had to choose an 800 stall surface parking lot or ramp, I would pick the ramp. If we ever get to the point when we can reduce our dependance on the car then it might make sence, I just dont see it happening. Besides I have casualy observed both the Cherry and Main St ramps nearly full several times. I am guessing that at some point it will be a priority to remove or if possible reconfigure the Main st ramp. to allow Adams street to connect to Main St.

IMO Parking really is in the same boat as say highway 41. There are times when 41 could be 10 lanes to maintain proper flow, and there are times when parking is in short supply, both are very expensive but that is the way we chooses to live. Those peak times account for like maybe 10% of the total time?

Puant, I think virtually all Amtrak trains already have a top speed of at least 79-80 mph - and that is considering the state of the rails on which they run. So, I can see adding more routes (such as one to our hometown hopefully), but the real goal is to both create high-speed service between large cities and to have more routes to smaller cities included in the regional rail networks. So the 80 mph system is actually already here - however they are definitely problems with it, such as waiting for freight trains and maintenance delays.

Puant, in your rendering with the parking tucked away, I think the ramp I'm referring to would be in the same location. So instead of the surface lot you've shown, there would be the opportunity to park more cars in the same space, which is better. Then you could still have the buildings facing out towards the street as you've shown as well.

To be clear, I haven't seen a plan that shows this, so it's as much what's in my head as anything. But conceptually, a ramp where you have that lot is more urban, a more efficient use of space, and should reduce the need for surface parking elsewhere.

Thanks for the update, Dan.

Are they really considering adding yet another hulking ramp on the mall site?

Is anyone else here sick of parking ramps? I guess I'm a bit turned off by them, from a few standpoints (they're expensive to build & maintain, they're almost always ugly, and people generally don't like parking in them). I don't like surface parkign lots either because they reduce density/walkability/aesthetics....However,

What if, instead...

I've posted an image like this before, but thought I'd try again to see what you guys think about this concept:

Well over 100 new parking spots can be neatly tucked away behind the buildings to the north of the BayLake building when the mall is razed. Not to mention additional street parking. All while maintaining a good continuous street frontage of buildings and sidewalks as shown below:

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/20090527downtown_street_Grid_Parkin.jpg

It seems to me that something like shown above is the best and most cost-effective configuration. No new parking ramps are necessary. Few, if any, parking spaces are lost from what BayLake has right now, particularly if the plaza park includes some parking as shown on the post above (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=37364532&postcount=3546)...parking spots are actually gained.

sorry to repeat myself but I think these are concepts that someone should be considering, at least....

I don't mind ramps, for the most part. In this area, I think the biggest advantage of a ramp is keeping you from having to slop through cold wet snow in the winter. Years ago I worked downtown & was able to park in the ramp & use the skywalk to get to the regency building. It was great in the winter.

I think that if the site you're referencing is where the ramp would be constructed, surface parking could be an option initially, with the option of building a ramp later.

I think it's dark, empty parking ramps that people object to. I can't think of any reason they have to be awful. I'll see what I can do.

Puant, I think virtually all Amtrak trains already have a top speed of at least 79-80 mph - and that is considering the state of the rails on which they run. So, I can see adding more routes (such as one to our hometown hopefully), but the real goal is to both create high-speed service between large cities and to have more routes to smaller cities included in the regional rail networks. So the 80 mph system is actually already here - however they are definitely problems with it, such as waiting for freight trains and maintenance delays.

Fair enough. I just wouldn't want the whole passenger rail idea to be shot down simply because we can't start at 110 MPH+. Let's let 110 MPH be plan A but if funding breaks down then let 80 MPH on existing tracks and with existing crossing signals be plan B so we can at least get SOMETHING going.

Puant, in your rendering with the parking tucked away, I think the ramp I'm referring to would be in the same location. So instead of the surface lot you've shown, there would be the opportunity to park more cars in the same space, which is better. Then you could still have the buildings facing out towards the street as you've shown as well.

To be clear, I haven't seen a plan that shows this, so it's as much what's in my head as anything. But conceptually, a ramp where you have that lot is more urban, a more efficient use of space, and should reduce the need for surface parking elsewhere.

It sure would be great if the city would share their concepts with the rest of us. Someone else asked this -- and I'm curious too--- whats' the status of using "stimulus" money to tear down the mall and prepare the site for new development & new jobs?

I think it's dark, empty parking ramps that people object to. I can't think of any reason they have to be awful. I'll see what I can do.

I think the new Cherry St ramp is close to fitting into the "awful" category. Sure, part of it is built out for ground level use, but it's still pretty lousy urbanism. This parking ramp is what historically has been and what I would still consider near the "epicenter" of the downtown (east side) and what have we got? It doesn't say much to me. It's just parking. 90% dead space.

*editied*

Fair enough. I just wouldn't want the whole passenger rail idea to be shot down simply because we can't start at 110 MPH+. Let's let 110 MPH be plan A but if funding breaks down then let 80 MPH on existing tracks and with existing crossing signals be plan B so we can at least get SOMETHING going.



I tend to agree with you. I hate to use the term "all or nothing" but it sort of is. If we get a "low speed" rail system to MKE & no one uses it because it's as fast to drive, it will be deemed a failure & rail will be dead. No one is going to allow another attempt after the first one failed. What we need for this to be an immediate positive, because there are so many out there expecting/hoping for it to fail just so they can say "I told you so".

Anyone who doesn't believe me, just read the press gazette forums......

I tend to agree with you. I hate to use the term "all or nothing" but it sort of is. If we get a "low speed" rail system to MKE & no one uses it because it's as fast to drive, it will be deemed a failure & rail will be dead. No one is going to allow another attempt after the first one failed. What we need for this to be an immediate positive, because there are so many out there expecting/hoping for it to fail just so they can say "I told you so".

Anyone who doesn't believe me, just read the press gazette forums......

I dont think that we should always be comparing the speed of the rail vs. driving. I know more people (in larger cities) that are choosing not to drive or own a car. Rail is an alternate to renting a car, taking a bus or flying. We should also consider that the price of gas also will affect people habits, I think I noticed the price shoot up pretty darn fast in the last month or two.

Plus I think that the people trolling the p/g forums are definitely the exception to everything, so I wouldn't read too much into their comments. I really can't stand peolpe that bash any idea without suggesting a viable alternative... kind of like the "I told you so" crowd.

If you are looking for some very insightful commentary about creating liveable cities, new urbanism, and the hilarity/insanity of suburbia, check out James Howard Kunstler's podcast:

"KunstlerCast." (http://kunstlercast.com/)

Episode #65 has some interesting thoughts about urban ballparks!

It sure would be great if the city would share their concepts with the rest of us. Someone else asked this -- and I'm curious too--- whats' the status of using "stimulus" money to tear down the mall and prepare the site for new development & new jobs?

I think in general the city does share their concepts once they are developed enough to share. When it comes to the idea of a plaza in front of Baylake, that's an idea that's been around publicly for over 10 years, I think. Beyond the idea that it would be nice to have a plaza there, I don't think there's anything to share.

I think the new Cherry St ramp is close to fitting into the "awful" category. Sure, part of it is built out for ground level use, but it's still pretty lousy urbanism. This parking ramp is what historically has been and what I would still consider near the "epicenter" of the downtown (east side) and what have we got? It doesn't say much to me. It's just parking. 90% dead space.

Well, that ramp is not ideal, but it's a lot better than the surface lot that was there, was necessary to get Nicolet Bank built, and sure helps with parking for Meyer Theatre events. If that retail get filled, then it's an active space itself, while accommodating like 7 times the parking that it did as a lot. So not perfect, but progress.

Finally as regards rail, do we have any figures that say that 80 MPH is that much cheaper than 110? I mean, theoretically, if it costs $50 million to upgrade to 80 MPH, and then another $50 million to further upgrade to 110 MPH down the road, but it would cost $75 million to go to 110 MPH right away, then it would be a waste not to do 110 first. I'm making numbers up there using round numbers, but you get the idea. I guess my point is that I can't really comment on if a slower option now with the possibility of upgrading later is even a good idea without knowing the costs involved for each option.

Danillo, I don't mean to pressure you at all, but if you have anytime in the next week or so, I would love to see those pics you said you had from the downtown "open house." It would be interesting to see the interiors of the lofts and the flats. Thanks so much!!

Bear in mind that upgrading the train speed to 110 MPH+ means that there will be fewer road crossings for cars to cross. Drivers won't like even fewer crossings...and it's expensive to upgrade signaling for faster trains (or to build over/underpasses). Some people living near the train might not be crazy about a bullet train rocketing through their backyards at 110 MPH+. People will cry "Boondoggle!" no matter what.

I don't think your point about road crossings holds water... On the Milwaukee to Madison 110 MPH line they're planning on closing 9 of 122 road crossings... and those are the lightest travelled with nearby alternates... so I don't think any but the extreme small minority that uses those lightly used roads will even notice...

SOME people will cry "boondoggle" no matter what. But the majority, the "public opinion", won't cry "boondoggle" no matter what, and that's who needs to be taken into consideration. If the trains are made competive right away on a speed basis to cars, then the majority probably won't see it as a boondoggle and will at least think about trying it. And those that do try it will see about the other huge advantages of rail travel that you mention below. We just can't let the first version of passenger rail to Green Bay be a failure in the eyes of the public, or else it will be the last version for quite a while.

There is no "+" on 110 mph. 110 mph will be the upper limit.

I don't think 110 mph trains are really any more dangerous to people than 60 mph trains. Getting hit by either will mean a bad day. Also, NIMBY's are never crazy about anything in their backyard, be it highways, bike trails, or railroads.

...in addition, the very high expense of tightening up the track tolerances and all sorts of other very costly steps required to get the train ready for 110 MPH. Again, I believe I heard that upgrading from 80 MPH to 110 is Exponentially more expensive. And for what? To shave off 20 minutes of travel time? I agree that "high speed" ought to be a long-term goal, but to say let's hold off on the whole project unless it starts at 110 right off the bat doesn't make sense to me, especially when there are other convenience factors that even "low speed" trains offer that cars don't (comfortable travel, no traffic to drive through, no parking to deal with, ability to get work done en route, ability to read or sleep, play with kids, have a drink, etc). Travel time isn't everything in my mind ,but I could be wrong.

I don't think going from 79 mph to 110 mph is exponentially more expensive, but it is a significant investment. I've had a hard time finding information, but here's what I do know:

- 79 mph is the max speed for rail lines without PTC (positive train control). All trains running on the rail line must have in-cab signals and a device that can automatically stop the train. Congress recently mandated this on nearly all rail lines throughout the country and is supposed to be implemented by (I think) 2014.
- 80 mph is the max speed for Class 4 track
- 90 mph is the max speed for Class 5 track
- 110 mph is the max speed for Class 6 track
- Above 79 mph there are also some requirements for better grade crossings, but I wasn't able to find much info about that
- 125 mph is the max speed for Class 7 track
- 160 mph is the max speed for Class 8 track
- 200 mph is the max speed for Class 9 track
- Above 125 mph, no grade crossings are allowed at all. All roads must pass over or under the tracks.

(The classes of track are standards for track deviation in width, height of the two rails, and other items of similar nature. Basically, the higher the class, the more maintenance needs to be done to keep it in spec)

So, to go from 79 mph to 110 mph, you'd need PTC, two better grades of track, and improved grade crossings.

There must be some other rules I haven't run across for why all these "high-speed" (really medium speed) proposals are all for 110 mph and not 125 mph. It can't just be going up one class of rail.


About travel time, I don't think it is everything, but in my mind it is the first thing that people will consider.

I don't think 79 to 110 will shave off only 20 minutes. From what I've seen it would shave at least 40 minutes off the GB - MKE rail travel time.

I don't think your point about road crossings

There must be some other rules I haven't run across for why all these "high-speed" (really medium speed) proposals are all for 110 mph and not 125 mph. It can't just be going up one class of rail.


That reason is for the grade separation requirement. 110 MPH is the upper limit allowed for most at-grade crossings. You can get an exception for a particularly difficult situation to get a grade separation but those would be rare. As you stated, at over 125 MPH no at-grade crossings are allowed under any circumstances.

The extra cost of grade separations or closings at almost all crossings really increase the cost from 110 MPH, so that is a major reason that you don't see anything over 110.

Just saw this article on the PG website. I agree that trying rail service on a temporary experimental basis is the best option to start. I'm not going to worry about high speed service until there's a demand for more trains along the route. Higher speed means higher fuel cost and I think that overbuilding it at the start would have the boondoggle callers screaming about the cost.

Train advocates eye experimental Amtrak route between Chicago and Green Bay (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090601/GPG0101/906010552/1207/GPG01/Train+advocates+eye+experimental+Amtrak+route+between+Chicago+and+Green+Bay)

Fox Valley passenger service seen as link to world economy

By Steve Wideman • Gannett Wisconsin Media • June 1, 2009


APPLETON — Local passenger rail advocates want Amtrak to establish an experimental passenger train route between Chicago and Green Bay.

Bringing passenger trains back to the Fox Valley would connect this area to the world economy and significantly reduce the carbon footprint of travelers, according to the representatives from the group called NEWRails, which is dedicated to renewing passenger rail service after a 39-year absence.

"We could transport people from here and get them connected to Chicago, one of the biggest economic engines in the country and the world. That's an incredibly powerful thing to have," said Paul Linzmeyer, president of the organization and a founder of New North, an economic development consortium of 18 counties in Northeastern Wisconsin.

The last passenger train traveled through the Fox Valley on April 30, 1971.

"What if Chicago gets the 2016 Olympics? If we had a passenger rail system in Northeastern Wisconsin, we could be a part of that whole venue," Linzmeyer said. "The concept of a world economy is now very much a reality."

NEWRails leaders recently brought their rail travel wish list to Appleton, including a plan to convince state transportation leaders to ask federal officials to approve an experimental Amtrak route on existing Canadian National Railway tracks with local stops in Appleton, Neenah and Menasha, Oshkosh and Fond du Lac.

"We have a perfect opportunity to establish an experimental route," said David Schwengel, a former Chicago Northwestern track worker and rail consultant to the Department of Transportation in the recently completed reconstruction of the Marquette Interchange in Milwaukee.

"Canadian National's freight business is down significantly because of the recession. That means there is room on the tracks to fit in a passenger train. The CN could also use revenues generated through fees paid by Amtrak to access (Canadian National's) tracks," he said.

Schwengel prepared an experimental Amtrak schedule showing two trains a day running the 218-mile route from Green Bay to Chicago. He said an experimental route would establish temporary stations using prefabricated buildings similar to mobile homes.

"An experimental route likely would be fully funded by the federal government. Once the route is accepted by the state, operational expenses would be the responsibility of state and local government," Schwengel said.

Charlotte Foth of Menasha, one of 40 people to attend Wednesday's meeting at the Appleton Public Library, is an ardent fan of train travel and recently rode Amtrak's Hiawatha service between Milwaukee and Chicago.

"I find riding trains to be romantic and relaxing," Foth said.

Foth said the ecological benefits of train travel deserve attention, "especially in these times when we are concerned about global warming."

"We've got to stop putting so much carbon dioxide into the atmosphere," Foth said.

Schwengel said diesel locomotives on the Hiawatha service consume about one gallon of fuel per mile.

That means the train, with five passenger cars and accounting for stops, uses 218 gallons for a one-way trip. Assuming a passenger car with a 25-mile-per-gallon fuel ratio makes the same trip, the car would consume just 8.2 gallons of gasoline.

But if 100 people rode the train instead of using their vehicles, that would save more than 600 gallons of gasoline and reduce emissions, Schwengel said.

"We estimate 150 people would use the train at various points along the route," Schwengel said.

While tracks between Milwaukee and Green Bay are generally in good enough shape to allow the 79 mph speeds required for passenger service, an estimated $125 million is needed to update signals along the route to allow freight and passenger trains to safely use the same tracks, Schwengel said.

Schwengel said the $125 million would come not from the state, but from an $8 billion federal budget appropriation intended for rail improvement across the nation.

State Rep. Penny Bernard Schaber, D-Appleton, and a member of the Assembly's transportation committee, met briefly with NEWRails officials on Wednesday and agreed to arrange a meeting between the advocates and DOT officials.

"We do need to work with DOT to encourage better transportation throughout the state, including rail and other methods," Schaber said.

— Steve Wideman writes for The Post-Crescent of Appleton.

I am 100% for this idea trial or no trial. I would like to see train service from Green Bay to Chicago - 79 MPH is fine in my opinion. I personally would not flinch at a cost similar to total auto travel expenses or higher. I am looking at it from an entertainment point of view rather than commuting so I may be in the minority regarding the cost. I don't see that any train service will be able to pay it's own way without subsidies. That's ok with me too. Choo-choo-Ca-Choo!

Funny. It is June. No Activity on site. Can we all say, when is this going to happen? Just odd, that's all. I am sick of looking at that building all bombed out and all.:ohno:

..........took the words right out of my mouth............I saw some cement work on the CityDeck.......although I can't get the WEBcam to work again................................

I dont think that we should always be comparing the speed of the rail vs. driving. I know more people (in larger cities) that are choosing not to drive or own a car. Rail is an alternate to renting a car, taking a bus or flying. We should also consider that the price of gas also will affect people habits, I think I noticed the price shoot up pretty darn fast in the last month or two.

Plus I think that the people trolling the p/g forums are definitely the exception to everything, so I wouldn't read too much into their comments. I really can't stand peolpe that bash any idea without suggesting a viable alternative... kind of like the "I told you so" crowd.

I'm not saying that we SHOULD always compare speed, but many people will. We're definitely on the same side on this one. We live in a very conservative area. People are resistant to change, in a lot of ways. To get a large number of people out of their comfort zone, I think there needs to be measurable & significant benefit.

I don't agree that the people trolling the PG forums are the minority. I think WHAT they post can be really over the top, but I'm sure that there are a lot of people who are skeptical of rail transit.

The link to the photos I took of the downtown condos is below:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=37608378#post37608378

Mmmmmm.....

Today is my and my wife's anniversary, so we just ate at the Republic Chophouse. It's expensive for Green Bay, but for that they really deliver exceptional food. It was REALLY good. What an asset for downtown!

Mmmmmm.....

Yeah, I went a few months ago and got the bone-in Tenderloin Truly delicious!! I also recall the mashed potatoes being excellent.

More importantly, congratulations on the anniversary!

Don't Forget! Tonight marks the beginning of the Farmers' Market On Broadway. Be sure to stop on down to gather your favorite local produce and other items. Starts at 3pm and runs every Wednesday through October.

New this year: if you bike to the market you will receive a free drawstring backpack from BayCare. So go green, hop on, and support your local Farmers' Market today.

Talking about bikes did you see the mayor has started his bike program again downtown, and he HOPES that this time people will return the bikes..... :horse: you have to give him credit he has flopped redeveloping downtown but he has at least made it easier for the Broadway drunks to get around. :cheers: How long before all the bikes are either damaged or stolen again, I say by mid July this will fail once again.......you do have to love the entertainment value this brings......

the only reason why it came back is because they got a grant from wal-mart....so don't worry gbmphillips, you precious taxes are safe. god forbid you see your tax dollars do something more then just pay the city salaries. i know i don't want to see the physical results of my tax dollars. HAHAHA. :)

I think this is a great transition from the Stadium district into Military Ave. area. I'm just wondering if it can get enough patronage the whole year through to make it.

Plans for Packers property near Lambeau
(http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/local_wluk_greenbay_plans_for_packers_property_near_lambeau_060320091706rev1)
Updated: Wednesday, 03 Jun 2009, 6:00 PM CDT
Published : Wednesday, 03 Jun 2009, 5:35 PM CDT

* Reporter: Robert Hornacek

ASHWAUBENON - A new sports bar is planned for a property owned by the Green Bay Packers and a local developer on the west side of Lambeau Field.

Fanatics Sports Central, a sports bar in Milwaukee, is planning to open a new, "high-end sports bar" in a portion of the current Big Lots building on Lombardi Access Rd. in Ashwaubenon.

Nearly two years ago, a company called 1177 Lombardi LLC, in partnership with the Green Bay Packers, purchased the property. The company is owned by local developer James Strohschein. It is one of several properties the Packers and Strohschein purchased on the west-side of the stadium. The Packers say Strohschein manages the properties.

Representatives from Fanatics Sports Central say they are still working on a lease for about 20,000 square feet of space in the Big Lots building. Plans call for stadium seating area with a 180-inch HD television, 42 other HD televisions, a game room and restaurant.

On Tuesday, the Ashwaubenon Public Works & Protection Committee took no action on a request for a liquor license at Fanatics Sports Central. Village clerk Dawn Collins said the committee wanted more information.

Owners of Fanatics Sports Central hope to be open by September for the start of the regular season.

Click here for more information on Fanatics Sports Central in Milwaukee.

the only reason why it came back is because they got a grant from wal-mart....so don't worry gbmphillips, you precious taxes are safe. god forbid you see your tax dollars do something more then just pay the city salaries. i know i don't want to see the physical results of my tax dollars. HAHAHA. :)

I don't think I said anything as to the funding, I don't even care of they use tax dollars, what crawled up your ass?

because every time you post on here, you complain about the city spending money. you raged against another mayor project. why hould you care about this one. this is not funded by you, the tax payer, or the city. a company out there believes in the program as much as the mayor apparently and you should be thankful that the program is going to be able to be continued. it's just another nicety to have and if it fails, it fails and all the blue collar extreme conservatives in Green Bay should not have anything to complain about. BUT you know they will anyway. :ohno:

I think this is a great transition from the Stadium district into Military Ave. area. I'm just wondering if it can get enough patronage the whole year through to make it.

I have always been embarrassed by the land use between Lambeau Field and Highway 41. You're telling me that an NFL city has a K-Mart, Big Lots, empty retail space, and crumbling parking lots to show everyone driving in from out of town on the way to the mecca of the American sports world?

And the very first thing I ever wrote on this forum was about the empty parcels between Copps and Highway 41 -- How can this not be valuable development property (unless the Packers have their eye on it for a new stadium some day)?

because every time you post on here, you complain about the city spending money. you raged against another mayor project. why hould you care about this one. this is not funded by you, the tax payer, or the city. a company out there believes in the program as much as the mayor apparently and you should be thankful that the program is going to be able to be continued. it's just another nicety to have and if it fails, it fails and all the blue collar extreme conservatives in Green Bay should not have anything to complain about. BUT you know they will anyway. :ohno:

Yeah I complain about wasteful spending, I know libs don't understand what that is, since its patriotic to pay taxes. Yeah I complain about the mayor, he has not done a very good job in revitalizing downtown he has tried but like the current president he has shown he really is not very good at making good choices and recovery. I understand the project is not funded by tax dollars does not mean that people can't have an opinion. We all know the mayor wants a yuppieville downtown, a "green" lifestyle, a feel good about ourselves lifestyle, it would be nice if it worked because it does bring a nice classy touch, but so far after how many years now, the downtown looks the same as it did when the last mayor was in office and the mayor before that was in office, the only difference there are less people down there now and more empty storefronts.

But hey thats just a rant of an "extreme conservative" and you all know how irrational they are.

the downtown looks the same as it did when the last mayor was in office and the mayor before that was in office, the only difference there are less people down there now and more empty storefronts.

I'm not going to get into your politics, fair enough. But this statement is patently false.

Talking about bikes did you see the mayor has started his bike program again downtown, and he HOPES that this time people will return the bikes..... :horse:

Here's an update from the man on the street; Today I walked past the Job Center twice, 11:50 am and 1:10pm and each time there was a different green bike there. One was locked to the rack. So there's two examples of people using the free bike ride in their search for a job. Success in action on day 2 of the program. :banana:

I am very new to this board. I can't seem to get a chronological order, or any order to the posts yet, so excuse me if this question has been answered.
The long delayed construction was supposed to start on the Astor Place building in May. I have seen nothing in the Green Bay media outlets that this got started. Green Bay is notoriously slow to start project by causing one delay after another until the developer folds up and leaves. Has this building started construction yet?

I guess that this time the bikes will be locked at night and on weekends. This should go a long way toward keeping them out of the river. Denver has a neat system where bike users get a card that is used to unlock a bike. They know who has a bike at all times.

Welcome MediaDoggie;

Astor Place, if you are reffering to the correct building (many in the GB area get confused) is a 17 storey condo tower, which is basically dead.

I have always been embarrassed by the land use between Lambeau Field and Highway 41. You're telling me that an NFL city has a K-Mart, Big Lots, empty retail space, and crumbling parking lots to show everyone driving in from out of town on the way to the mecca of the American sports world?

And the very first thing I ever wrote on this forum was about the empty parcels between Copps and Highway 41 -- How can this not be valuable development property (unless the Packers have their eye on it for a new stadium some day)?
I just hope they decide to redevelop the area between Kmart and Copps Food into something more useful, once they decide to move Big Lots out of the former Kohl's Foods (remember that?), out of the mostly dead Lombardi Shopping Plaza. There's plenty of uses for that site.

I think Big Lots should relocate to the Green Bay Plaza shopping center, in the former Prange Way/Linens-N-Things, located in between TJMaxx-HomeGoods and Office Depot.

I think most of that land near US-41 and the airport is property of the Oneida Tribe.

I am very new to this board. I can't seem to get a chronological order, or any order to the posts yet, so excuse me if this question has been answered.
The long delayed construction was supposed to start on the Astor Place building in May. I have seen nothing in the Green Bay media outlets that this got started. Green Bay is notoriously slow to start project by causing one delay after another until the developer folds up and leaves. Has this building started construction yet?

Welcome and Very good observation...All of us long time followers/posters have all heard this "revised" start date many, many times before. The project which was supposed to kick off May '09 is (was?) referred to as the Watermark, also formally known as the Rivercenter. From what I have heard things are still moving along oh so ever slowly, last word was that they were waiting for some grant money to be approved, which had been expected by the end of May.

Welcome MediaDoggie;

Astor Place, if you are reffering to the correct building (many in the GB area get confused) is a 17 storey condo tower, which is basically dead.

Astor Place is on actually on hold (according to my downtown sources unnamed that are in the loop). Yes it sure seems dead, but in a couple of years after this credit crisis it may be back on the table.

I just hope they decide to redevelop the area between Kmart and Copps Food into something more useful, once they decide to move Big Lots out of the former Kohl's Foods (remember that?), out of the mostly dead Lombardi Shopping Plaza. There's plenty of uses for that site.

I think Big Lots should relocate to the Green Bay Plaza shopping center, in the former Prange Way/Linens-N-Things, located in between TJMaxx-HomeGoods and Office Depot.

I think most of that land near US-41 and the airport is property of the Oneida Tribe.

The Packers are buying up all the land along Lombardi from 41.

http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/local_wluk_greenbay_plans_for_packers_property_near_lambeau_060320091706rev1

I think most of that land near US-41 and the airport is property of the Oneida Tribe.

It is all west of 41, as the tribal boundry is wast of that

http://www.oneidanation.org/uploadedFiles/Oneida%20Map%2017x11.pdf

http://uwgbsbdc.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/cropped-pano2.jpg

I took this photo for the banner of the SBDC blog. It occurs to me looking at it that, despite some people's assertion that the downtown "looks the same as it did" when Mayor Schmitt took office, almost EVERYTHING seen in the photo has been built, has undergone major renovation, or is undergoing major renovation in that time. Riverfront Lofts are new, Nicolet Bank is new, the Cherry St. ramp is new, the Bellin Building has undergone major improvements, the CityDeck is under construction, the 9/11 Memorial is new, the Younker's building is (it would seem) about to be vastly improved. Heck, even the steeple of St. Willy's has been fixed up! So, yeah, aside from everything that you see here (and many things that you don't see here), the downtown looks just the same...

I am very new to this board. I can't seem to get a chronological order, or any order to the posts yet, so excuse me if this question has been answered.
The long delayed construction was supposed to start on the Astor Place building in May. I have seen nothing in the Green Bay media outlets that this got started. Green Bay is notoriously slow to start project by causing one delay after another until the developer folds up and leaves. Has this building started construction yet?

The developer picked by the mayor could not get his act together so I believe most of his pipedreams are dead and they are scaling way back with dull and bland buildings.

I am very new to this board. I can't seem to get a chronological order, or any order to the posts yet, so excuse me if this question has been answered.


Welcome MediaDoggie.

On the right side of the top of the page there is a Display Modes (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=403457&page=180&nojs=1#goto_displaymodes) link with a drop down menu. Choose Linear Mode and that will list posts in a chronological order across all sub-threads.

The developer picked by the mayor could not get his act together so I believe most of his pipedreams are dead and they are scaling way back with dull and bland buildings.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3409/3598151061_a6607bc52d_o.jpg

http://uwgbsbdc.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/cropped-pano2.jpg

I took this photo for the banner of the SBDC blog. It occurs to me looking at it that, despite some people's assertion that the downtown "looks the same as it did" when Mayor Schmitt took office, almost EVERYTHING seen in the photo has been built, has undergone major renovation, or is undergoing major renovation in that time. Riverfront Lofts are new, Nicolet Bank is new, the Cherry St. ramp is new, the Bellin Building has undergone major improvements, the CityDeck is under construction, the 9/11 Memorial is new, the Younker's building is (it would seem) about to be vastly improved. Heck, even the steeple of St. Willy's has been fixed up! So, yeah, aside from everything that you see here (and many things that you don't see here), the downtown looks just the same...

That is some nice progress as I've not been there in 4 years. Not too long ago someone wanted to tear down the Bellin bldg! The Nicolet Bank has a nice design but too bad it's not taller. The Riverfront Lofts as condos is such a small unit I'm not sure how the owner can pull much of a profit. Whether anyone will use the CityDeck remains to be seen. Residents have lost so much interest in downtown they may think it's hopeless. Why does GB build everything so scaled down and bland?

That is some nice progress as I've not been there in 4 years. Not too long ago someone wanted to tear down the Bellin bldg! The Nicolet Bank has a nice design but too bad it's not taller. The Riverfront Lofts as condos is such a small unit I'm not sure how the owner can pull much of a profit. Whether anyone will use the CityDeck remains to be seen. Residents have lost so much interest in downtown they may think it's hopeless. Why does GB build everything so scaled down and bland?

Do you remember who wanted to tear down the Bellin Building and for what reason? Was it to widen Walnut St? (that street widening project seems to be the reason some of the other cool old buildings in this area got torn down--either that or for more parking lots)

Yeah, there are many out there who think downtown is hopeless. Why do you think that is?

pessimism - funny how many in America think "never give up a fight," but right now when it comes to this one single Green Bay downtown, its "it sucks, give it up people who are trying to bring downtown back!"

A week and a half ago the Brown County Sheriff's Dept. announced that it was looking for sites to relocate to. The one location that was mentioned was the vacant S&L property near St. Hwy. 172 and County. GV in Bellevue.

This would leave the current building used by the Sheriff open for office development. Does anybody know how many square feet of new-to-market office space that would be for downtown? Any Speculation as to how this would affect other developments like replacing the mall?

Why does GB build everything so scaled down and bland?

thats a funny statement.. most ideas start much more spectacular, however after years of pre-selling we get what this area will support, basically it all comes down to money. If you look around its seems like we prefer to build roads so we can all drive to our blan single family ranch house that looks just like all the rest of our neighbors and we are told that its all perfect, if we dont like that style we can just move someplace else. Well I think that most of the creative people either have moved away or are suffering this same affliction of many of the SSC posters here in GB...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3409/3598151061_a6607bc52d_o.jpg
I get it, that is so cute and funny....oh an just like the people who are developing downtown, so original!

Do you remember who wanted to tear down the Bellin Building and for what reason? Was it to widen Walnut St? (that street widening project seems to be the reason some of the other cool old buildings in this area got torn down--either that or for more parking lots)

Yeah, there are many out there who think downtown is hopeless. Why do you think that is?

It was only about five years ago. Before the building was upgraded. I can't remember whom, but to think it was discussed shows that attitude. I would say the downtown problems started the day the city decided to rip out Washington Ave businesses for parking lots that were barely used. Tearing Kaaps out was the biggest crime. Then came Port Plaza. Other cities had downtown indoor malls that struggled, but they managed to save them. If I hadn't known better I would have thought they built a federal prison downtown due to the fortress style of the building.
Now let's compare GB to other smaller cities. Wausau> has a downtown office tower. Rochester Mn, a remarkable skyline and it's not all from the Mayo clinic. St Cloud, Mn, has a good start. South Bend, Ind., has a few office towers from corporations who were encouraged to build downtown. Cedar Rapids, Ia., Sioux Falls, SD.
At least Lambeau Field is impressive and a year round tourist draw. Has the Packer organization ever been approached about supporting a sports themed draw downtown?

thats a funny statement.. most ideas start much more spectacular, however after years of pre-selling we get what this area will support, basically it all comes down to money. If you look around its seems like we prefer to build roads so we can all drive to our blan single family ranch house that looks just like all the rest of our neighbors and we are told that its all perfect, if we dont like that style we can just move someplace else. Well I think that most of the creative people either have moved away or are suffering this same affliction of many of the SSC posters here in GB...

I don't think the area roads are the problem. Even cities with highly successful downtowns build roads and have a majority of people who prefer to live in suburbs. What we don't have is enough options for the percentage of the population who would prefer a more urban lifestyle. But you are right about what it takes to get there, and the financial realities of the matter.

It was only about five years ago. Before the building was upgraded. I can't remember whom, but to think it was discussed shows that attitude. I would say the downtown problems started the day the city decided to rip out Washington Ave businesses for parking lots that were barely used. Tearing Kaaps out was the biggest crime. Then came Port Plaza. Other cities had downtown indoor malls that struggled, but they managed to save them. If I hadn't known better I would have thought they built a federal prison downtown due to the fortress style of the building.
Now let's compare GB to other smaller cities. Wausau> has a downtown office tower. Rochester Mn, a remarkable skyline and it's not all from the Mayo clinic. St Cloud, Mn, has a good start. South Bend, Ind., has a few office towers from corporations who were encouraged to build downtown. Cedar Rapids, Ia., Sioux Falls, SD.
At least Lambeau Field is impressive and a year round tourist draw. Has the Packer organization ever been approached about supporting a sports themed draw downtown?

I'm not sure it's the most productive to compare cities aside for what we can learn for their success or failure. You mentioned Rochester and the Mayo Clinic, well, the two things are related. The Mayo brings in a ton of money and a ton of very highly educated people, which are factors that tend to lead to downtown development. In South Bend's case, Notre Dame obviously has a similar effect. Wausau has done well, but they also had a very rich man basically say, screw it, I'm building a big tower with my own money.

There are things we can learn from those cities, but the fact that in some ways they may be ahead of us isn't terribly relevant to us. One could just as easily say, "hey, we're doing great, look and Gary, IN, their downtown is terrible!" The demographic issues that have doomed Gary are no more relevant to us than the demographic issues that help Rochester. What we have here is a good, hard-working population, but one that is quite low on highly-educated people. But there is a good entrepreneurial spirit, the city has been rated as a good place for small business, and the standard of living is high while the cost of living is low. So we have advantages and disadvantages, and with continued effort we can turn those advantages into a better downtown.

I don't think the area roads are the problem. Even cities with highly successful downtowns build roads and have a majority of people who prefer to live in suburbs. What we don't have is enough options for the percentage of the population who would prefer a more urban lifestyle. But you are right about what it takes to get there, and the financial realities of the matter.



I'm not sure it's the most productive to compare cities aside for what we can learn for their success or failure. You mentioned Rochester and the Mayo Clinic, well, the two things are related. The Mayo brings in a ton of money and a ton of very highly educated people, which are factors that tend to lead to downtown development. In South Bend's case, Notre Dame obviously has a similar effect. Wausau has done well, but they also had a very rich man basically say, screw it, I'm building a big tower with my own money.

There are things we can learn from those cities, but the fact that in some ways they may be ahead of us isn't terribly relevant to us. One could just as easily say, "hey, we're doing great, look and Gary, IN, their downtown is terrible!" The demographic issues that have doomed Gary are no more relevant to us than the demographic issues that help Rochester. What we have here is a good, hard-working population, but one that is quite low on highly-educated people. But there is a good entrepreneurial spirit, the city has been rated as a good place for small business, and the standard of living is high while the cost of living is low. So we have advantages and disadvantages, and with continued effort we can turn those advantages into a better downtown.
What's worse than Gary, IN, is East St. Louis, IL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_St._Louis,_Illinois), a town that never recovered from the race riots of 1917, and its downtown is mostly dead, with Interstates leading to St. Louis, Missouri wedged between old, decrepit buildings which date back to the early 1900s. Urban prairies and burnt-out buildings litter their neighborhoods, and their crime rate is comparable to the national average. Their population has diminished with the growing crime rates. No way in heck I would live there.:ohno:

Glad I didn't dump my SUV yet.....

Well, there could be a nasty surprise in store for you, for taking public transport may not be as green as you automatically think, says a new US study. Environmental engineers Mikhail Chester and Arpad Horvath at the University of California at Davis say that when these costs are included, a more complex and challenging picture emerges.

In some circumstances, for instance, it could be more eco-friendly to drive into a city -- even in an SUV, the bete noire of green groups -- rather than take a suburban train. It depends on seat occupancy and the underlying carbon cost of the mode of transport.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.243153c6a091a3b942a75077729e8c92.c51&show_article=1

Glad I didn't dump my SUV yet.....

Well, there could be a nasty surprise in store for you, for taking public transport may not be as green as you automatically think, says a new US study. Environmental engineers Mikhail Chester and Arpad Horvath at the University of California at Davis say that when these costs are included, a more complex and challenging picture emerges.

In some circumstances, for instance, it could be more eco-friendly to drive into a city -- even in an SUV, the bete noire of green groups -- rather than take a suburban train. It depends on seat occupancy and the underlying carbon cost of the mode of transport.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.243153c6a091a3b942a75077729e8c92.c51&show_article=1

This is a good reminder that we must have cleaner energy production or else we are simply powering the greener modes of transport using dirty coal-fired power plants.

Note that (according to this study) driving a car could be greener than a commuter train IF:

1) The car is fully occupied (car pooling), and
2) The train is less than 25% full

We couldn't necessarily always control #2, but how many of the cars on our freeways every morning and afternoon are carrying four people to and from work???

Mr. Phillips, please pick me up at 7:00.

There are things we can learn from those cities, but the fact that in some ways they may be ahead of us isn't terribly relevant to us. One could just as easily say, "hey, we're doing great, look and Gary, IN, their downtown is terrible!" The demographic issues that have doomed Gary are no more relevant to us than the demographic issues that help Rochester. What we have here is a good, hard-working population, but one that is quite low on highly-educated people. But there is a good entrepreneurial spirit, the city has been rated as a good place for small business, and the standard of living is high while the cost of living is low. So we have advantages and disadvantages, and with continued effort we can turn those advantages into a better downtown.

Well said Danillo! :rock:

We couldn't necessarily always control #2, but how many of the cars on our freeways every morning and afternoon are carrying four people to and from work???

Mr. Phillips, please pick me up at 7:00.
Sorry friend but I make that commute alone, its my me time......honestly though in major cities I can see advantage to rail and other public transportation but in this area, Fond du lac to Green Bay, travel by private vehicle is easier and more efficient. I really do not see a need for expansion to what is already here and I believe the majority of people in the area feel the same.

Sorry friend but I make that commute alone, its my me time......honestly though in major cities I can see advantage to rail and other public transportation but in this area, Fond du lac to Green Bay, travel by private vehicle is easier and more efficient. I really do not see a need for expansion to what is already here and I believe the majority of people in the area feel the same.

GBM, you seem to always be thinking "All or Nothing" when it comes to transportation; ie, you seem to think, "We ALL Need to travel by car OR we ALL need to travel by public transit". In other words, your posts seem to say, "if we get a passenger rail, everyone has to sell their cars and SUVs and everyone has to take a train instead". Or, "Everyone drives, therefore, there is no room for transit".

We're not saying that it's that simple. We just want choices. Sure, the majority of people mght want to drive, but a very significant portion of the population wants public transit. Enough of a population to potentially fill 6 trains per day. Lots & lots of people. Enough to largely pay for the system. No more subsidy than what roads get (probably less subsidy, in fact, when you consider indirect costs).

So what's the difference if the DOT diverts a few hundred million for passenger rail and thus alleviates the need for $Billions more for ginormously-expensive freeways? Maybe then we stop forking so much of our country's wealth over to other sandy, hot countries. Maybe then we stop ripping through our cities to put in wider roads and tearing down great places like our former historic downtown to cram in more banal parking lots. Maybe then some of us who make frequent trips to Milwaukee & CHicago can sit back, chill out and enjoy the train ride, rather than strapping the kids into car seats and dealing with a stressful drive through crazy traffic. Maybe then a dad can walk back to the tapper at the back of the train, kick back and sip on a beer while traveling, rather than white-knuckle-driving through rush hour traffic or on slippery snow-covered roads.

maybe then this country would be a bit more healthy overall by; getting some excercise walking/biking/jogging to pick up the bus or train, and to leave the bus or train

improving literacy skills by reading something on the bus/train rather than looking at dotted/solid lines go behind you in your 4-wheeler

improve social/mental status by communicating with others on the public transit vehicle rather than talking to yourself in your 5/6/7/8 passenger vehicle which really only has 1 occupant.

improve stress level by relaxing on the way to work rather than screaming/yelling at others on the road to go through the yellow light

and so on

Right on Jschmuck,

There are probably a hundred "maybe then..." benefits to add here.

Now this is where the nay-sayers say "well 4-wheelers are convenient." Well, dont you think we get that convenience back on public transit with all those "maybe then" statements Puant and I stated?

public transit; excercising while commuting, sounds convenient to me, reading while commuting, sounds convenient to me socializing while commuting, sounds convenient to me,

The health beneifts are just astounding, thus chances are an individual would live longer, sounds convenient to me.

Oh I am not saying all or nothing when it comes to transportation. I just think that they need to be very careful as to how much they are going to invest into system that would have limited ridership in the Fox Valley. When you say there is enough interest to fill 6 trains a day, I am skeptical, unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying. Personally I would use the train in Green Bay if I was going to Milwaukee for a Brewer game or maybe Summerfest. I would go to Chicago to catch a show or visit a museum, but it would never be mine and I believe most peoples main mode of transportation.

Actually I am planning a vacation with the wife to the sowuthwest. She rode the train with her sibs a number of years ago to Santa Fe and she said if not for the bar car it would have been a horrible trip. Bathroom was flooded, water on the floor, cars were dirty, and very unpleasant trip they had. I assured her that it has improved since then.

Mass transit is wonderful, lets just not shortchange the main mode of travel and keep the majority of funding building bigger and better roads. I am looking forward to the improvements to 41.

A while back the Days Inn Downtown wanted to build a circular expansion. There was a problem with the city, (Isn't there always?) Whatever happened to this?
*********************
Federal Courthouse: The Feds are using temporary space after Green Bay was granted a Federal courthouse. There was talk of building downtown and some potential lots were looked at. Isn't it possible to use some stimulus funds for a project such as this? I haven't seen a word of this either.
Anyone? Thanks for all the previous responses.

A while back the Days Inn Downtown wanted to build a circular expansion. There was a problem with the city, (Isn't there always?) Whatever happened to this?
.
Days Inn backed off the plan after the mayor said a 17 story albatross was going to be built on the riverview and so Days Inn decided they did not want to build to have a view of another building......but OPPS that little project never got off the ground either.

Days Inn backed off the plan after the mayor said a 17 story albatross was going to be built on the riverview and so Days Inn decided they did not want to build to have a view of another building......but OPPS that little project never got off the ground either.

funny thing (to me) is, when they had that CO leak recently, there were something like 9 people staying at the hotel at the time. Maybe "backing off" was a good plan...

A new fish joint opens up on Broadway. I'll try to get by there for lunch on Thursday. I hope to get to the Bullfrogs' game that night since I'm off work.

Ribbon-cutting today at The Tackle Box Grill

June 9, 2009

A ribbon-cutting ceremony is set for 3 p.m. today at The Tackle Box Grill, 130 S. Broadway, Green Bay.
Advertisement

Mayor Jim Schmitt, On Broadway Inc. members and owner Scott Doepke are among those attending.

The Tackle Box Grill's menu and food is all made from scratch. This non-smoking restaurant serves fresh fish, soups and homemade wraps among other items.

— Press-Gazette

A new fish joint opens up on Broadway. I'll try to get by there for lunch on Thursday. I hope to get to the Bullfrogs' game that night since I'm off work.

You have got to try the curds!!

They have a great recipe!

I was at the tail end of the ribbon cutting, too.

Nice article on the Watermark project in Marketplace Magazine


http://www.marketplacemagazine.com/content/441_1.php



http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q28/westwinder/watermark2.jpg

^^

From the Watermark article: "The project is expected to begin in June after the closing and be finished 10 months later." Great!

^^ We'll see...

Please don't tell me that you have heard something to the contrary or negative with this?

That's not what I'm saying. But it was supposed to start in May, now it's supposed to start on June, but June is almost half over and there are no signs of it starting. So what I am saying is that I'm done believing anything I hear about it starting now or at any specific time. Everything was supposed to be in place at the end of April. The financing was set. It was supposed to be dot Is and cross Ts, but obviously something isn't in place. I like the plan, but I'll believe it will happen when the construction workers show up.

You have got to try the curds!!

They have a great recipe!

I was at the tail end of the ribbon cutting, too.

I had the curds, they were too salty, fine if you're drinking beer, but not that great for lunch. The burger was good. It's a nice place to sit outside and have lunch. I'll go back again this summer.

Walked down to the Bullfrogs game. They expanded the stadium behind the left field seating and have a carnival-game play area. If they keep something like that in their future stadium wishes I don't think they would fit on the brownfield site. The parking situation didn't look bad to me at all. I can see having to wait for a long time to get out of the East High lot closest to the river, but it's like that every day after school, same as when I was a student there in the '80s.

http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/local_wluk_greenbay_apac_adding_450_jobs_200906111601_rev1

Maybe something to do with the increase in jobs, but APAC is picking up AT&T and dropping Verizon. I know this info because I work for the Deathstar.

funny thing (to me) is, when they had that CO leak recently, there were something like 9 people staying at the hotel at the time. Maybe "backing off" was a good plan...

Your point about "backing off" is a good one during these economic times.

9 people during the weekdays is typical for downtown hotels. Just check out the parking lots at Hotel Sierra and Holiday Inn next Mon-Thur during the day or night. During Happy Hour at Coaches Corner, most people park in the Holiday Inn lot so it may look like the hotel is full. But it isn't, there might be 3 people in the lounge and maybe one of them is a guest at the hotel.

I know from experience, having been to the downtown hotels for work between the hours of 5pm-7pm many times, there just isn't much life in the hotels during the week.

http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/local_wluk_greenbay_apac_adding_450_jobs_200906111601_rev1

Maybe something to do with the increase in jobs, but APAC is picking up AT&T and dropping Verizon. I know this info because I work for the Deathstar.

Smart move on the part of APAC dropping Verizon for AT&T. I think AT&T might be one of the firsts to start offering free or inexpensive Netbooks with a new wireless service contract. Netbooks will be the next hardware that replaces the cell phone.

^^

From the Watermark article: "The project is expected to begin in June after the closing and be finished 10 months later." Great!
:lol: It would be nice if they did something with that mess they created down there.....jsut not a lot of faith in them. But heres' hoping.

Interesting article on what's being done to try and fill up downtown Appleton's tallest (by stories) office building, the 12-story Zuelke Building. It's owned by a Green Bay developer. The second tallest downtown Appleton office building by stories is the 222 Building, formerly called the AAL Building. It has a grand total of 11 stories, I think, but is a bigger building and has more square footage than the Zuelke.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090612/GPG03/906120500/1247/Green-Bay-developer-slashes-rent-to-fill-Zuelke-Building-in-downtown-Appleton

On Friday afternoon I was over by Bayfest on the Main St. bridge and I shot this video of an actual worker making construction noise with a jackhammer. And there was a guy welding on the sea wall down by the Walnut St. bridge. It's not very much, but it's something.

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww359/GB-Pix/th_WorkOnCityDeck01.jpg (http://s735.photobucket.com/albums/ww359/GB-Pix/?action=view&current=WorkOnCityDeck01.flv)

I heard that a new business is opening soon inside the former Storheims on the west side. It will be called Gilly's Drive-In. I'm guessing, that since they've erected a canopy on the side facing Pizza Hut, that it will be possible that it might have carhops.

^^
http://www.gillysfrozencustard.com/news.html

There is a Guillie's Frozen Custard in Milwaukee and this is a offshoot of it, as it opened as a separate company in Fond du Lac. And they do have carhop service.

Nice article on the Watermark project in Marketplace Magazine


http://www.marketplacemagazine.com/content/441_1.php



http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q28/westwinder/watermark2.jpg

I'm all for this project. The only problem with it is the choice of a logo for Watermark. It looks too much like the Montgomery Ward logo from the 1960s.

it's been pretty slow on this board lately. Understandable, though-with the nice weather I'm sure everyone is downtown on the citydeck, hanging out at Astor Place, or taking in a Bullfrog's game. It's a good thing we have all those places otherwise we'd be forced to sit at computers & talk about them.........................

Well the green bikes are almost all missing again. How did we know this will happen. :nuts:

Today I jogged around the downtown...from the east side Y, across the river over to Broadway. I love DTGB in the summer. A few observations:
The schmittydeck (very pressgazettebloggeresque name, sorry!) is coming along.

Broadway is really underrated. This area is really nicely moving along in terms of remodeling of the old building stock, and it's starting to get some good modern infill as well. I'm very impressed on what they've been doing over there.

It's such a shame that the East side couldn't have kept more of its older historic building stock. pointless wishful thinking, I know...but, believe me, if they had, Downtown Green Bay would be a real destination, something that would be highly-touted on a national level ... people would regularly make a point to visit the "historic downtown" of Green Bay when visiting. Locals would use it too. It would be Broadway, but on a much greater scale and with more diversity.

but of course, wishful thinking and 'what if's' don't mean jack squat. Sometime, though, I think too much of the infastructure of the east side has been screwed up (most obviously the mall and the parking lots)...these mistakes will be so hard to overcome....not sure the city in general has the will-power to change it. Part of me says we need to do it NOW, while we still have people/voters/business-owners/investors who still recall what the downtown could be/what it once was. Too many peple can't even fathom what it could be, I think. Will the younger generation just "give up" on the downtown all together? Or will they want to change it and help the policical will along to actually do so? Will circumstances dictate a revitalization of the downtown? As some have said, historic cities like Green Bay occupy important sites for a reason.

Fetaz on N. Washington has been closed for remodeling for awhile. Does anybody know what's up there? I had heard a rumor some time back about a wine bar on the second floor. Does anybody know?

It would be cool if they had a big selection of stuff from Wisconsin/Regional winemakers.

Puant thanks for the positive plug for the Broadway District. On Broadway has hired me as an intern, and I have loved every minute of working for them this summer. Farmers' Market is held every Wednesday from 3-8pm through October, and I urge everyone to make a stop out to this event to gather the true essence of the Broadway district. The Broadway district is a close-nit community, and because of this they have brought on a lot of positive changes to the area. If you ever have any questions regarding the Broadway district or the Larsen Green project, I would be happy to answer them, or find the answer from someone more knowledgeable at On Broadway. Thanks again for your support of the Broadway district.

Fetaz on N. Washington has been closed for remodeling for awhile. Does anybody know what's up there? I had heard a rumor some time back about a wine bar on the second floor. Does anybody know?

It would be cool if they had a big selection of stuff from Wisconsin/Regional winemakers.

I was going to mention this last week but forgot. I went over there to get dinner & found out they were closed. No idea what's going on, though.

On another note, Maria's restaurant WAS going to be moving back to the original Broadway location, but that is no longer happening. Hopefully I don't ruffle too many feathers with this, but I'll give you the events as I heard them.

I've been a regular at Maria's since it opened, & have gotten to know some of the staff pretty well. I asked what the "real" story was with the move, then lack of move. Here's what I heard. Keep in mind, this is their side of the story, but I trust my 'source' :)

Maria was approached by the owner of the burger co. about re-opening up in that location, and wanted to partner with her. As part of the deal, he wanted to split profits 50/50, but wanted her to pay the expenses. (nice deal, hey?) Anyway, things went south from there, but in the meantime he had gotten some of her recipes. The restaurant that is in that location right now--la cocina--has no affiliation with Maria's, but does serve some of her recipes because he, in essence, stole them from her.

The reason I'm posting this is because I think it's important to support local businesses, but not local businesses that try to strong-arm & deceive.

On another note, Maria's is planning to open a new store in Howard in September.

Have houses in the Broadway area been gentrifying along with all the new and sometimes trendy businesses in the area?

Cool site!What do you think?Findings Jewelry (http://www.iblogme.com/jewelryyt090/)Bone Horn Beads (http://jewelryyt090.blogr.com/)Celestial Crystal (http://jewelryyt090.blogsarena.com/)Czech Glass Beads (http://www.blognow.com.au/jewelryyt090/)Czech Fire-Polished (http://iseekblog.com/jewelryshop090/)

Have houses in the Broadway area been gentrifying along with all the new and sometimes trendy businesses in the area?

I think it's a mixed bag. I live in that area now. Not right off broadway, but back in the gray/mather area. There are pockets of nice neighborhoods & pockets of not-so nice. The city has been buying & renovating old houses on mather, & I've seen some homes selling. The problem is that a lot of the homes right around broadway are rentals. I think it's on the right track to getting better but it's not going to happen overnight. In my opinion, the best thing that could happen would be for the Larsen property to really take off. If the property values increase due to that development, it may encourage some of these owners/landlords to cash out.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090619/GPG0101/906190564/1207/GPG01/Visiting-mayor--Roundabouts-boost-safety--economy

Have houses in the Broadway area been gentrifying along with all the new and sometimes trendy businesses in the area?

I just received this e-mail the other day. It might answer your question.

Please join NeighborWorks Green Bay for an Open House at 723 Mather Street on Tuesday, June 23rd. We’ll be open between 3:00 and 6:00 p.m. NeighborWorks Green Bay staff and board members will be present to give tours of the newly renovated home and to answer questions about NeighborWorks Green Bay, its mission, programs and other current and upcoming projects. Refreshments will be provided. Parking is prohibited on Mather Street so please plan to park on an adjacent street (driveway parking is available off the alley for persons with mobility limitations).

This 2,000 square foot, two story home features three bedrooms, 2.5 baths, large kitchen, dining room with a bay window, and more. The renovated home has all new mechanical systems (heating, plumbing and electrical), and a new attached, two stall garage. Because we moved the house to this location, it also has a brand new, poured concrete foundation and basement!

The first floor is stunning with original staircase, refinished hardwood floors, and a laundry room. The second floor has a large master bedroom with walk-in closet and master bath. There are two additional bedrooms and another full bath. See the property listing sheet under “Homes for Sale” on our Website at: www.nwgreenbay.org

This home is located a block away from several projects we completed in the 600 block of Mather Street. This house used to be located in the 600 block of Kellogg Street. NeighborWorks Green Bay acquired the property and renovated the home through their partnership with the City of Green Bay. NeighborWorks Green Bay thanks Bain’s Housemoving and our General Contractor on the project, Roger Tekulve Construction for their quality work.

Since January of 2000, NeighborWorks Green Bay has constructed or rehabilitated 79 dwelling units! In this same period we have educated and counseled 4,513 aspiring home buyers and existing homeowners. We have helped 1,346 families achieve their dreams of homeownership through our loan programs. In total, since the year 2000, through our housing development and homeownership programs, we have leveraged modest resources into $135 million of direct investment in Green Bay’s Original Neighborhoods.

NeighborWorks Green Bay is a not-for-profit corporation governed by a volunteer Board of Directors selected from the neighborhoods where we work to make a difference. Our efforts to strengthen neighborhoods and transform lives requires the hard work and creativity of people like you – neighborhood residents, volunteers, lenders, Realtors, government officials and staff, local business, and area philanthropists.

We hope to see you on the 23rd. Together we’re building a better Green Bay!

Sincerely,

Noel S. Halvorsen
Executive Director

I was going to mention this last week but forgot. I went over there to get dinner & found out they were closed. No idea what's going on, though.

On another note, Maria's restaurant WAS going to be moving back to the original Broadway location, but that is no longer happening. Hopefully I don't ruffle too many feathers with this, but I'll give you the events as I heard them.

I've been a regular at Maria's since it opened, & have gotten to know some of the staff pretty well. I asked what the "real" story was with the move, then lack of move. Here's what I heard. Keep in mind, this is their side of the story, but I trust my 'source' :)

Maria was approached by the owner of the burger co. about re-opening up in that location, and wanted to partner with her. As part of the deal, he wanted to split profits 50/50, but wanted her to pay the expenses. (nice deal, hey?) Anyway, things went south from there, but in the meantime he had gotten some of her recipes. The restaurant that is in that location right now--la cocina--has no affiliation with Maria's, but does serve some of her recipes because he, in essence, stole them from her.

The reason I'm posting this is because I think it's important to support local businesses, but not local businesses that try to strong-arm & deceive.

On another note, Maria's is planning to open a new store in Howard in September.

It sucks that there's unethical business owners. Now I know to stay away from The Burger Co.

I found this posting from this past week on Craigslist. Could this be what Fetaz is remodeling for?

If not them, then who,what,where could this be about?

I called the number in the listing and got a recorded message that didn't give an exact location.

Bar Staff Needed (Green Bay, WI)

Date: 2009-06-14, 8:46PM CDT


Nightclub Downtown: Brand New Club hiring all positions.
Seeking outgoing Bartenders, Promoters, Security, Waitstaff
Must be 18 and older. Club hours: Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights.
Please call Mike at (920)-432-1976

* Location: Green Bay, WI
* Compensation: Hourly and tips
* This is a part-time job.
* Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster.
* Phone calls about this job are ok.
* Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests.



PostingID: 1221749628

Maria's was open in the old spot for about a month before the relationship tween Maria and Ray Salter went South. Ray had about a month to steal her recipes/techniques. The guy is a S.O.B.

Fetaz was for sale fairly recently. Maybe the new owner wanted to change something. Or maybe the original owner wanted to increase it's value... Speculation!

What about chefetta's? I drove past there and there was a big for lease sign. Are they closed, or did a really dumb person put the sign in a bad place?

Puant thanks for the positive plug for the Broadway District. On Broadway has hired me as an intern, and I have loved every minute of working for them this summer. Farmers' Market is held every Wednesday from 3-8pm through October, and I urge everyone to make a stop out to this event to gather the true essence of the Broadway district. The Broadway district is a close-nit community, and because of this they have brought on a lot of positive changes to the area. If you ever have any questions regarding the Broadway district or the Larsen Green project, I would be happy to answer them, or find the answer from someone more knowledgeable at On Broadway. Thanks again for your support of the Broadway district.

Drove down Broadway this week for the first time in a while and I seem to notice a number of new empty storefronts......thats a shame it is a nice area.

Actually several of the empty storefronts are the result of stores relocating within the Broadway District. Colourbox (tattooing) moved from Dousman around the corner to Broadway.... The beer-making store on Dousman moved to new digs across the street... Little Tokyo where the sushi is fantastic expanded into the adjoining space that used to be their Asian grocery.... The aquarium store that leases space on the corner of Dousman and Broadway reorganized their space and freed up the storefront on Dousman. Kavarna's moving from present location to the Egyptian Revival building a block north. Yikes Salon that was next to Kavarna moved to the loft of the antique mall a block north on Broadway.

Saw this in the GBPG,

Work is under way on The CityDeck boardwalk along the Fox River, but construction on the adjacent WaterMark building (the old Younkers department store) has yet to begin.

Developer John Vetter won't go on a limb and predict when it will, but he said it's only a matter of time.

Yes John and it's only a matter of time that winter will return......

Does this guy have something on the city that they have let his incompetence go unchecked?

^^

Here's the link to the full story.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090621/GPG0703/906210632/1247/GPG03/Richard-Ryman-column--Vetter-works-on-WaterMark-financing

Hey,
Has anyone heard any rumors about someone possibly proposing a 22-story hotel development in the downtown?

P.S. GBM-
You should buy some land downtown and then develop it!

Hey,
Has anyone heard any rumors about someone possibly proposing a 22-story hotel development in the downtown?

Nope... but
"I'll believe ya when me shit turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet"- Super Troopers

meow you know that's not a very positive thing to say. Meow is the time for being positive! Meow isn't the time to be negative!

Hey,
Has anyone heard any rumors about someone possibly proposing a 22-story hotel development in the downtown?

I did. That happened about 10 - 12 years ago... VK Development. Well, hopefulyl it is new, but I wouldn't hold my breath nor "taste" anyone's rainbow sherbert. I have heard of a smaller scale project for Site 4. Approx. 6 stories. Not sure if that is still breathing or not.

I am not looking for any friends here, but I think that the "sonic" concept of a place would maybe be cool on that site south of Mason street on the river. There is a ton of activity on Adams from the Fox River Trail and that place would definitely be a gold mine based on anecdotal evidence. It lies close enough to the downtown, yet may possess the "sense" of sub urbanism to draw the more skeptical people. Any thoughts? Or shall I be banished?

I am not looking for any friends here, but I think that the "sonic" concept of a place would maybe be cool on that site south of Mason street on the river. There is a ton of activity on Adams from the Fox River Trail and that place would definitely be a gold mine based on anecdotal evidence. It lies close enough to the downtown, yet may possess the "sense" of sub urbanism to draw the more skeptical people. Any thoughts? Or shall I be banished?

It does have to be something that activates the riverfront. The coal piles do make it difficult to do something grand here, as well as the bridge being a next door neighbor. I saw plans once for a bar/restaurant/banquet hall once that I thought was cool. The issue was parking though. They were the same people that planned and made something a reality on the appleton riverfront. Anything is better than that warehouse though. I know we are a blue collar sort of town, but Green Bay does sure have its share of ugliness and underutilized spaces. I saw the photo thread on a small Ohio town. Boy do I wish the mall would have fallen apart like so many other developments in downtown...

You can stay... For now.

Puant thanks for the positive plug for the Broadway District. On Broadway has hired me as an intern, and I have loved every minute of working for them this summer. Farmers' Market is held every Wednesday from 3-8pm through October, and I urge everyone to make a stop out to this event to gather the true essence of the Broadway district. The Broadway district is a close-nit community, and because of this they have brought on a lot of positive changes to the area. If you ever have any questions regarding the Broadway district or the Larsen Green project, I would be happy to answer them, or find the answer from someone more knowledgeable at On Broadway. Thanks again for your support of the Broadway district.

Ok, Matt! Here are some questions for you :)

1.) Has there been a lot of interest or inquiries from perspective developers for Larsen Green? Is anything looking solid?

2.) Can we expect any development announcements in the near future? Is there are a construction timeline?

3.) Are the developments/plans/vision geared more towards a traditional, dense, urban environment (main street) or stand alone developments?

4.) What kind of impact is expected from this development?

Any answers would be appreciated!

I did. That happened about 10 - 12 years ago... VK Development. Well, hopefulyl it is new, but I wouldn't hold my breath nor "taste" anyone's rainbow sherbert. I have heard of a smaller scale project for Site 4. Approx. 6 stories. Not sure if that is still breathing or not.

I was looking at the Robert Sinclair Architecture site and under "commercial" they have several proposals for the Green Bay area. I think the Washington Street Galleria (Site 4) would fit with what you are talking about GB4Life. It is not a grand development (better put, not a monster high rise), but this doesn't have to be. It fits Green Bay very well and ties in with what the CityDeck is trying to accomplish; encouragement of foot traffic, family/pedestrian friendly and a destination point. What I like about this is that it follows a European concept; it is a street with shops covered by a handsome exterior and would make sense in our climate. It also has an 'old Green Bay' feel to it, though it leaves no doubt that this is a modern building. I love the rounded windows and wished that the Flats on the Fox could have incorporated some of those to dress it up a bit in conjuction with the industrial look. This also brings back more of the streetscape to Washington Street. I hope that this is in the works :banana:.

http://www.rgsarchitecture.com/commercial.htm. After reaching this site, you will need to place your cursor over "portfolio," which will allow you to look at the projects.

From the looks of it, the "Flatley Marketplace & Residences" looks to be the proposal they may have been working on in lieu of Astor Place.

While Site 4 is viewed, at least by the mayor, as the major site requiring a large structure I am really liking the Sinclaire proposal. It is better than the usually brick box that is built in Green Bay and while it is only 6 stories it will allow for further development on Washinton and Adams without impeding the river views. I wish they had more pictures of what there Site 1 development looked like.

What I thought was interesting is that for the Site 4 proposal it gave an estimated completion date, while it did not list one for the Astor Place site. Perhaps this means something may already be in the works?

Puant- What did you hear about a 22 story hotel development?

I did. That happened about 10 - 12 years ago... VK Development. Well, hopefulyl it is new, but I wouldn't hold my breath nor "taste" anyone's rainbow sherbert. I have heard of a smaller scale project for Site 4. Approx. 6 stories. Not sure if that is still breathing or not.

That was my reaction, too...figuring it was years ago since the 22-story building proposal was made. However, this comes from what I think is a quite reliable source who should know better. Unfortunately our conversation was cut off and so I couldn't get more details. I will see this person again w/in the next couple of weeks, and I will be sure to ask for more information. Normally I'm not one to go spouting off repeating half-baked rumors based on unreliable information... Just that this very brief conversation was from a very good source. All that said, I'm not holding by breath either...even good sources can be misunderstood (maybe he said "2-story" not "22-story?"... Stay tuned, though.

As for the Sinclair stuff - I like. I like very much.

JUNE 2005: At least Bosses Newsstand was still open and I hope it is today. The last time in Green Bay I drove up and quickly parked on Adams St. No searching for a spot, no driving to the top of a ramp finding the last spots. I easily jaywalked across the streets with no fear of traffic. The only activity was the finishing work on the Nicolet Bank. Wednesday afternoon at 1:00. Barely a sole. I thought I had seen a coffee place earlier and searched it out, Hmm should be on Washington.. well there it is, but why are they closed in the middle of the week?
At least Bosses is open. I recall the days in their old location, the aroma of chocolate, cigars, newsprint. Fresh comics, hundreds of magazines and scores of newspapers and a few brands of baseball cards.
There are traces of the old Bosses. Not as many newspapers, far less magazines, could not see comics. Even a customer or two wandering in, some old guys reading magazines that they'll probably never buy. I buy a Milwaukee and a Chicago paper, I never did find a place to sit and drink coffee.

Does anybody know where the Sonic is going to be built?

And I swear about 3 years ago I saw in the P-G we were getting a Fuddruckers......what happened to that?

Does anybody know where the Sonic is going to be built?



East side on Mason St.

From the GBPG:
Sonic to open: A Sonic Drive-In will replace the Storheim's Frozen Custard restaurant, 2276 E. Mason St., at East Town Mall. Jenny Sparks, senior director of facilities for franchisee Twilight Burgers LLC of Franklin, said they hope to open in late September or October. Construction will begin later this month, pending permits

Does anybody know where the Sonic is going to be built?

And I swear about 3 years ago I saw in the P-G we were getting a Fuddruckers......what happened to that?

Never heard that about GB possibly getting a Fuddruckers, but there is a Fuddruckers now open in Grand Chute.

I also heard that Sonic is now looking for a Green Bay West location as their 2nd location in GB after the E. Mason one opens this fall. There will be 5 sonic restaurants from GB to Oshkosh. My cousin worked at one in Denver during high school. I really wasn't too impressed with the food, but the drinks & dessert are good. Well it looks like a Longhorn Steakhouse is building by the mall. That place has great steaks. It will be the only one in WI.

So when the hell is Watermark going to break ground? :bash: Unbelievable how slow this city is at development. I feel like I am living in the movie Groundhog's Day. I have been on this forum since 2005 and it has been that long since we have been waiting for some of these sites to be filled.

http://www.rgsarchitecture.com/commercial.htm

Does anybody have info on when these projects were posted? I'm curious to see how relevant the information is. A couple things that make me question the validity of the projects are the 2 in De Pere. The bridge site has been open for a few years now and there has been no progress made. I thought the city was still deciding on how to proceed with that site. The other is the condo project in De Pere, which would currently be where Century Lanes is located. I know the owner of Century Lanes fairly well and am in there at least once per week. I have never heard anything substantial about selling. I know business deals are often times conducted behind closed doors, but in a tight-knit community like the greater GB area you think some info would have popped up.

I know, I know... its a GB Forum. The only reason for raising the DP examples is because they are areas I am more familiar with and question the validity. That would also make me question all of the projects. They seem more like visions.

Somebody please tell me I'm wrong :)

I also remember hearing about fuddruckers a few yeas ago, about the same time the new marcus was built on the east side, from what I recall it was going to be part of that development, well that also took forever to get off the ground and I doubt that any developers would wait that long.

As far as DePere goes I consider DePere to be a part of Green Bay Area, so any development talk is totally welcome.

I have to believe that all of those proposed developments are just visions, or maybe just maybe someone will sell a project before they "announce" the project to the public, unlike all the past projects that had a grand announcement and then stall for several years or forever...

Regarding the RGSA web site, what is interesting is that of the 5 projects in their portfolio the only one that lists a completion date is the Washington St. Galleria which lists completion as 2011. Not sure if that is significant or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knyUWoY389o

In the video why does it say 7/10/09 as the last day of existence ? Is that when it will finally be torn down? Not likely...

In the video why does it say 7/10/09 as the last day of existence ? Is that when it will finally be torn down? Not likely...

Yes, it almost seems unlikely, but I am not the one who made the the video. I only provided some of the pictures from my Flickr account.

On the other hand, they're trying to save the clock from destruction on July 6th, as it holds its place in history, that clock's mechanism is centuries old, first being used in the Montgomery County Courthouse in Winona, Mississippi. People are going to be downtown for that event.

I can't believe they're putting off the demolition of Port Plaza 'til the last minute. I know money's a concern, but having it lie dormant for a long period of time will be the biggest problem Green Bay had to face since planning for the construction of the mall in the first place. I just wish they would've planned on replacing the Boston Store with an IMAX theater back in 2001, when the mall was only a third dead. It is a travesty that they left the building on the south side of the mall vacant for four years, before finding a replacement tenant. I'd probably envision this mall prospering in an alternate reality, unlike our reality, in which the mall is decaying as we speak, and no, the addition of Bay Lake Bank and APAC aren't going to disguise the fact that the mall is dead. That right there is like putting lipstick on a pig. Bay Park Square is one of only two shopping malls left in the Green Bay area.

Let's hope that East Town Mall continues to provide an alternative shopping experience for Green Bay citizens looking for bargains. I hope their big makeover they have planned helps, as well as the renovation of Kohl's, among other things. I also would've liked to consider adding a walkway/seating court between ShopKo and Budget Cinemas, removing the extra parking lot, adding a few more storefronts, etc.

I just hope things can get better in Green Bay, where shopping choices are concerned. It would be nice if a Piggly Wiggly would open inside of the former Cub on the east side, but nothing has been announced yet, unfortunately.

Let's hope for the better.

Regarding the RGSA web site, what is interesting is that of the 5 projects in their portfolio the only one that lists a completion date is the Washington St. Galleria which lists completion as 2011. Not sure if that is significant or not.

I only know anything about the two projects along the City Deck. Remember that we first heard about RGSA when they were listed on a RDA agenda regarding a proposal for the Flatley site (a presentation that never happened). The item on the RGSA site is that plan. As far as I know it is on hold, at most. I don't know that there are any imminent plans to pursue it. It's a nice looking plan though with a good program.

The site 4 plan show, last I heard, is still very much a possibility. It's a great plan. I wish it was 2 or 3 floors taller, but the mix of uses and the public accessibility is everything we'd ask for in a project, so I'll take the height as is. Plus I think, as designed, it would look a bit funny if you added floors. At any rate, the folks at RGSA's M.O. is to not make a big deal about the projects until the financing package is in place. I'm actually a bit surprised to see the project on their site. But if this or another project from them really goes public and goes before RDA or City Council, I think it will be viable and the financing worked out.

I can't believe they're putting off the demolition of Port Plaza 'til the last minute. I know money's a concern, but having it lie dormant for a long period of time will be the biggest problem Green Bay had to face since planning for the construction of the mall in the first place.

Yes, money is a concern. I wish the city could be more proactive about clearing the site, but it isn't a political possibility here. Also, the city can't make developers grow on trees. As much as we'd like the city to develop things, it really can't. Now, I fear the city will wait to find someone to mostly fill the whole site in order to avoid vacant lots sitting for a years, but at the very least there needs to be some planned development there if they are going to pay for the demo. Unless, of course, the stimulus money comes in for that, in which case it can't be destroyed fast enough for me.

...the addition of Bay Lake Bank and APAC aren't going to disguise the fact that the mall is dead. That right there is like putting lipstick on a pig.

I'm not sure the job of Baylake City Centre is to dress up the mall. It's a project onto itself. Yes, there was hope that it would help the mall, but at the same time it provided an opportunity for several good tenants to come downtown. Reusing a department store isn't easy, and no new department stores were forthcoming. A debate can be had about if the city should have allowed the building to be redeveloped. Clearly, given a choice between Baylake building a new building downtown and reusing the Boston Store, a new building is preferable. At the same time, we can't assume that Baylake would have spent the money on a new building. As such, given a choice between the current Baylake City Centre and a still vacant Boston Store, no Baylake Bank and no APAC, I'd take the current setup. If a mistake was made, it was insisting that the building have and "old downtown" look when the bones of that building lent themselves in no way to an old downtown look.

I'm not sure the job of Baylake City Centre is to dress up the mall. It's a project onto itself. Yes, there was hope that it would help the mall, but at the same time it provided an opportunity for several good tenants to come downtown. Reusing a department store isn't easy, and no new department stores were forthcoming. A debate can be had about if the city should have allowed the building to be redeveloped. Clearly, given a choice between Baylake building a new building downtown and reusing the Boston Store, a new building is preferable. At the same time, we can't assume that Baylake would have spent the money on a new building. As such, given a choice between the current Baylake City Centre and a still vacant Boston Store, no Baylake Bank and no APAC, I'd take the current setup. If a mistake was made, it was insisting that the building have and "old downtown" look when the bones of that building lent themselves in no way to an old downtown look.

I meant to say that about the way they dressed up the building. They did little to change the physical structure of the former Boston Store. I think they they could have done better by getting rid of those unnecessary corners, and streamlining the building's design. The only other problem with this building is, because it is connected to the mall's 1981 addition, that parts of the building might implode when the rest of the mall is demolished, whenever that will be.

anyone have a link or diagram as to which each site number is which?

anyone have a link or diagram as to which each site number is which?

I think that the numbers refer to the downtown plan drafted several years ago. I think that Puant is the expert on that subject. There is a link to the Map on the city's website- Click HERE (http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/planning/dt_plan_map.html)

If a mistake was made, it was insisting that the building have and "old downtown" look when the bones of that building lent themselves in no way to an old downtown look.

This could not have been said any better.

anyone have a link or diagram as to which each site number is which?

Back when I used to blog....(I'd like to get going on this again soon...just too freakin' busy!) but in any case, I did spend some time blogging about the city's downtown plan.

This is my article on so-called "Site 4". (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2008/12/mixed-use-residential-development.html)

The other elements of the downtown design plan are listed along the right-hand side of my blog, just underneath the comments (here, then scroll down (http://packerland.blogspot.com/) and look at the column on the right-hand side). I'd love to keep this blog going but wow...blogging can suck away too much time that I don't have....

thanks for the links everyone.

CRASH NEWS:
Shocking! Accidents that have terrified the world! Some escape with life, others not

http://autostrada80.com
It is definitely worth visiting it! :bash:

I was in the lobby of Port Plaza Towers yesterday and snapped these shots with my camera phone. I asked a resident stepping into the elevator car about them and he said that they were their new homes. Then the door closed and he was gone before I could ask any more questions.

The Berger/Morrow site is a good one because of access to the Bird Creek Parkway and trail system and the University Avenue Market being close by as well as.

The University site, I don't know exactly but the only open space for a development of that size is where University Ave. turns into Nicolet Drive at Hwys 54-57 near Curry Lane. That seems kind of far out there and not very accessible by pedestrians, (there's no sidewalks).

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww359/GB-Pix/NewHomes4PPYresidences1.jpg

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww359/GB-Pix/NewHomes4PPYresidences2.jpg

The old Boston Store building......why do the seagulls like to sh!t on it? I have my own ideas...

If only we could convert it to bio-fuel, and run the city busses on it.

BTW,... whatever the city, and the Bay Lake Coop/Condo Association did... they are not roosting there this year... :)

Tho they only moved over onto the mall roof... :bash:

At least the smell is mostly gone and they will not have to power wash the sidewalks before the Fireworks over the Fox... hehehe

I found this posting from this past week on Craigslist. Could this be what Fetaz is remodeling for?

If not them, then who,what,where could this be about?

I called the number in the listing and got a recorded message that didn't give an exact location.

From another post on craigslist... I am assuming this is a "redo" of Vincenzi's bar...

Not sure it will be much of a change... but they are "doing something to address" the issues they have experienced. Check out the City Council meeting videos... the Mayor had to call several "time outs" and send the Alderpersons to their corners to cool off...

What about chefetta's? I drove past there and there was a big for lease sign. Are they closed, or did a really dumb person put the sign in a bad place?

From http://www.cheffettas.com/,

To All of Our Wonderful Customers:

We are sad to say that we have closed our doors at 347 S Washington St. Thank you for your years of faithfullness.

Sincerely,
Chef Lori

Hey, what is the construction on Cardinal Lane, south of the very new 4-story retirement building in Howard? thanks

Hey, what is the construction on Cardinal Lane, south of the very new 4-story retirement building in Howard? thanks

Not a gas station is it? Sorry I have no clue what the development looks like since I don't travel in/around Howard.

http://www.examiner.com/x-12860-Brown-County-Political-Buzz-Examiner~y2009m6d4-Kwik-Trip-to-be-constructed-in-Howard-despite-neighborhood-protests?cid=exrss-Brown-County-Political-Buzz-Examiner

click the link below. looks like watermark might actually start in august. time will tell.

http://www.bidclerk.com/project.946988.html

ah thanks titletown, that link was your guess and it is correct, Kwik Trip.

ah thanks titletown, that link was your guess and it is correct, Kwik Trip.

That might be the worst fricken spot for a gas station (even though one is needed) unless its right in - right out. I go to the Associated bank right next to that site and the traffic is pure shit. Cardinal does a great job of moving cars at a high rate of speed. The best case would be for them to put a round about to slow everything down, but I am sure that won't happen. I would guess the ambiant speed to pull out of the street Associated is on is a range of 25-50 mph. Now try to let people make decisions... Its worst then a 4 way stop:ohno:

That might be the worst fricken spot for a gas station (even though one is needed) unless its right in - right out. I go to the Associated bank right next to that site and the traffic is pure shit. Cardinal does a great job of moving cars at a high rate of speed. The best case would be for them to put a round about to slow everything down, but I am sure that won't happen. I would guess the ambiant speed to pull out of the street Associated is on is a range of 25-50 mph. Now try to let people make decisions... Its worst then a 4 way stop:ohno:

agreed. turning left onto cardinal is brutal over there. I go to jimmy johns quite often & trying to turn left to go back toward shawano is a challenge too.

beyond the traffic, something seemed weird to me about this location. As I was thinking about it, I was having a hard time thinking of another gas station that's not on a corner...

as far as traffic speeds go, during the day I see a lot of cars pulled over on cardinal--I think they have their own little speed trap there. Officers have been sitting in that lot where the office building is going up right now..

I haven't been on Adams St lately, until today. I didn't see Republic, but I saw a building where I thought Republic was, with a big "for lease" sign in the window. This place didn't go out of business already, did it?

I haven't been on Adams St lately, until today. I didn't see Republic, but I saw a building where I thought Republic was, with a big "for lease" sign in the window. This place didn't go out of business already, did it?

No, Republic is not closed up for good yet. I took a walk down there tonight to see for myself after reading your post. The lights were on and there was about a dozen people inside. You must be mistaken about where it is.

No, Republic is not closed up for good yet. I took a walk down there tonight to see for myself after reading your post. The lights were on and there was about a dozen people inside. You must be mistaken about where it is.
What building are you talking about, JL999?

If it has a hanging blue circular sign with the white backlit "R", then that is the building you are looking for.

What building are you talking about, JL999?

If it has a hanging blue circular sign with the white backlit "R", then that is the building you are looking for.

my bad, I was looking in the wrong place. My "nose" got the best of me so I drove back down there on the way home from work & saw it. I thought it was on the previous block.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/images-3.jpg

There's an article on the history of the GREGBY downtown urban renewal program in the newest issue of Voyageur magazine. The issue, an anniversary edition, spotlights 25 significant events and developments in the history of Northeast Wisconsin, starting with the end of the ice age (!) and ending with the cleanup of the Fox River currently under way. The magazine is available at Bosse's. Plug.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/images-3.jpg

There's an article on the history of the GREGBY downtown urban renewal program in the newest issue of Voyageur magazine. The issue, an anniversary edition, spotlights 25 significant events and developments in the history of Northeast Wisconsin, starting with the end of the ice age (!) and ending with the cleanup of the Fox River currently under way. The magazine is available at Bosse's. Plug.

I love Voyeur magazine! Oh...wait....you said Voyageur,didn't you? :lol:

As for Chefettas closing- didn't we debate whether moving into their latest location might be the "kiss of death"? Was it the move or something else that led to their closing?

I had an interview with Chef Lori once last year for a job. I'm going to cast my vote for 'something else'.
Very unprofessional. Not impressed with her at all and I talked to people who worked with her at other places. She doesn't know what she's doing is the short story.

Anyone else down for the fireworks last night? I was on the west side near the Walnut St. bridge. Good show. Kind of funny that there was a pause about half way through the show and like half of the people left. We were starting to get ready to go too but then the show started again. I had my camera and shot a roll. I have no idea if anything turned out, but if some did I'll post once I get the slides back.

Anyone else down for the fireworks last night? I was on the west side near the Walnut St. bridge. Good show. Kind of funny that there was a pause about half way through the show and like half of the people left. We were starting to get ready to go too but then the show started again. I had my camera and shot a roll. I have no idea if anything turned out, but if some did I'll post once I get the slides back.
Yes that was strange. It almost seemed like it was set up that way. It didn't really seem like a "Grand Finale" then a bunch of people quickly got up and left...and after a few moments they all started over again. There were a few varities that I have never seen before. Anyhoo a great time drinking porters at titletown

good news! I know someone at the Green Bay Builders' Exchange (which receives the plans for projects and sends them out to prospective bidders), and the plans for WaterMark came in today and the bids are due July 23rd! I didn't really get any more information than that - this person just happened to mention it when I was talking with them. Hopefully this gives a better idea of a more concrete start date. If the bids came in July 23rd, I would think it would be anywhere between 2-5 weeks after that for groundbreaking - but that is just a guess. Later than hoped for, but we will take it just the same.

I'm no expert but don't you need bids before you get financing?

In this type of situation though, an experienced architect like Vetter should be able to get a pretty close estimate himself of what the project will cost. He shouldn't need to wait for the contractors to review in order to realistically guesstimate what it will cost so that he has the correct amount of financing.

Again, I am not positive - but this is at least a step in the right direction (but we have heard that before).

almost never will a commercial project have bids before financing. they probably had asked some specialty contractors to price up the mechanical, electrical, and plumbing for budgeting purposes. it sounds like they had a general contractor on board for a long time so every time they made changes, the GC would have just whipped out new budget numbers. The reason for this procedure is that unless the project is financed and actually on the market to be built, many people will not waste their time to competitively bid the project. the ones giving the numbers for budgeting normally have a relationship with the engineering firm or General Contractor. i hope this helps people understand why they are only at the bidding process.

^^I will just say one thing about the Watermark...

I will believe it when I see it...:ohno:

^^I will just say one thing about the Watermark...

I will believe it when I see it...:ohno:

Me too. Also, the more I ride around on my 10 speed and check out the emptiness downtown it boggles my mind! That goes for Broadway and Old Main St. too. It amazes me that so much is for rent for sale and not at all occupied..........I don't want to be crushed by the maddened crowds..but this situation is truly real Twilight Zone-like.......:soon:

so gbroots - just to clarify - it is a good sign that it has finally gone out for bidding, right? It should mean that they are getting more comfortable with their financing?

yes and no. it does mean that the project is serious and the financing should be there as long as everything comes in under budget. if any of the bids are majorly over what was originally budgeted, you can either see major design changes and more delays and rebidding or the watermark project filed away in the circular file. time will tell on this one

It looks like suburban Ledgeview (De Pere) Township will be staying a township.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090708/GPG0101/907080642/1207/GPG01/Appeals-court-denies-Ledgeview-village-status

The last thing that this state needs is more local governments and this attempt at creating another new one was blatantly unconstitutional. Oh well.

Mike

At the Daily Buzz now... mmmmmmm....

At the Daily Buzz now... mmmmmmm....

I've got to try that sometime. It's not really out of the way of my commute either.
The coffee at work sucks. :)

I've got to try that sometime. It's not really out of the way of my commute either.
The coffee at work sucks. :)

If you want a really good cup of coffee, try Alterra. Cheesecake Heaven in Ashwaubenon serves it, & I think Kavarna does also..

I found another Childrens Museum that we had a great time at. Maybe at some point Green Bay will have one. Here are a few pics from St. Paul of the Minnesota Childrens Museum. I only hope that our Green Bay building turns out to be halfway decent "when" built. Sorry about the quality- I took it from the skywalk, there were a collection of people hanging near the corner, which made my wife a tad uncomfortable. This was sunday morning so the streets were a bit lifeless.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/DSC_4067.jpg

And the parking structure...

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/DSC_4051.jpg

APAC brings back laid-off employees
Press-Gazette • July 14, 2009

Chicago-based APAC Customer Services Inc. is adding 450 employees at its downtown Green Bay call center, 301 N. Adams St. Green Bay General Manager Joe Dickerson said the plan is to increase call center employment to about 1,050 within 90 days. Dickerson said the additional employees are needed for "multiple new customers." APAC is seeking people with customer service experience. The Green Bay call center handles inbound calls from clients' customers. It does not do outbound telemarketing. APAC laid off 95 workers in April when it realigned services for some customers between call centers. Many of them have been rehired, Dickerson said.

In case anyone missed the latest on the Bullfrogs', here's the article from todays Press~Gazette.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090714/GPG0206/907140579&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSEL

Northwoods League: Bullfrogs' attendance taking hit from lousy economy, weather Bullfrogs averaging slightly fewer fans compared with '08

By Weston Hodkiewicz • whodkiew@greenbaypressgazette.com • July 14, 2009

Jeff Royle would love to say the Green Bay Bullfrogs are going to surpass their previous attendance record of 41,878 this season, but he won't. That's because in these economic times, it's difficult to be that certain — even for the team's surefire ownerand president.

Like a majority of teams in the Northwoods League, the Bullfrogs are feeling the fury of a tough economic climate — everywhere from the average attendance to the rising price of brats and concessions.

While Green Bay is still averaging more than 1,000 fans per game this season, it's a dip from the 1,309 per game that helped the Bullfrogs' smash their season attendance record by more than 6,000 through the gate last year.
Green Bay isn't alone, as a majority of the teams in the 14-team Northwoods League have seen a slide in attendance.

This season, the league as a whole has seen its average attendance drop from 1,784 per game to 1,586 through Sunday.The Bullfrogs' job wasn't made any easier following an up-and-down month of June, which saw temperatures jump between the low 50s and mid-90s.

"The economy hits everybody and it hits the Green Bay Bullfrogs, too — we don't get a free pass on it," Royle said. "The weather was a little bit sketchy — to say the least — in June, but considering the economy, furloughs and layoffs, I believe we've really held our own."

The Bullfrogs are taking things day by day and focusing on the little victories such as drawing 1,134 fans on Sunday, typically a tough day to get a crowd.
On Monday, the third-year franchise rewarded its 100,000th fan through the gate with a smorgasbord of prizes headlined by home season tickets for the entire 2010 season.

"When you start talking those kinds of numbers in that short period of time, it's really gratifying," Royle said. "I and the rest of our staff really enjoy those milestones and the sky's the limit. When I look around at this ballpark on a given night, it's amazing how many new faces I continue to see each and every game."

Green Bay Bullfrog manager Jordan Bischel will be the first one to attest how fans can impact a ball club.
Although it has been less than two weeks since Bischel took over for Ronnie Nedset, he has seen how the roar of a crowd can help his players' on-field performance.

"Every fan that comes to the ballpark is a boost for us," Bischel said. "For the team, having fans at a game is

huge. Playing every day, guys shouldn't get tired, but it does help to get that adrenaline boost at home, so every fan we get is definitely appreciated."

When Royle founded the Bullfrogs in 2007, he created a four- to five-year blueprint that he believes the team is following perfectly.
His expectations remain high because Green Bay provides one of the largest populations in the NWL — second only to Madison.

Only time will tell if the team can surpass last year's attendance mark, which was boosted after July 29 with the four best-attended games of the season. "To reach and exceed that 1,300, I guess we won't know until the end of the year," Royle said. "We might get on a run here where we have consistent crowds of 2,000 and you'll see that average jump right up, but these are challenging times. The economy has hit home across the country and it has certainly hit home in Northeast Wisconsin."

Hey guys,

Sorry I've been super busy lately and haven't been able to catch up on the forum.

I would like to take a moment to plug the Larsen Green project if you haven't already been talking about it later. I have had long talks with the project with the Executive Director here at On Broadway and things are sounding good. Can't say much, but it sounds like there are two solid leads for investors for Phase 1 of the project.

If you are looking for further answers or would like to press Greg Larsen or our executive director there will be a Larsen Green Project Tent at the Wednesday Farmers' Market On Broadway every Wednesday now. Come and buy your fresh produce while learning more about the Larsen Green Project.

Off to another Farmers' Market On Broadway!

Hey guys,

Sorry I've been super busy lately and haven't been able to catch up on the forum.

I would like to take a moment to plug the Larsen Green project if you haven't already been talking about it later. I have had long talks with the project with the Executive Director here at On Broadway and things are sounding good. Can't say much, but it sounds like there are two solid leads for investors for Phase 1 of the project.

If you are looking for further answers or would like to press Greg Larsen or our executive director there will be a Larsen Green Project Tent at the Wednesday Farmers' Market On Broadway every Wednesday now. Come and buy your fresh produce while learning more about the Larsen Green Project.

Off to another Farmers' Market On Broadway!

Two solid leads sounds very interesting, but "in these economic times" (ugh) maybe flying under the radar is a good thing for Larsen right now. I don't know if it's fair to use the word failure, but in a lot of ways the astor place/watermark projects feel like a failure right now, in large part, (to me, at least) because of overly optimistic, overly aggressive timelines. If we hadn't been told how close we were to having some of those things, how soon we were going to have them, I doubt we'd all be so pessimistic/guarded about the current plans.

For the record, I've said for a while that I think the Larsen site has even more potential than site 1/site 4. In some ways, I could see that area being THE premiere development. Now, if they'd move those stinkin' coal piles, it could be a different story..................

I am a little reserved on the Larson project. I would like to see it build out/up, but fear that something that should not get built, will get built because of the economy. I find it completely amazing that one of the old buildings has not been converted to apartments/condos. There are so many people that love the "old feel". Anyways there sure is a lot of work to be done. Anyone still have their fingers crossed on a July start for watermark?

Just caught up on the posts as of late and noticed some on Republic Chophouse. The chophouse is alive and well, still one of the best in the area in my opinion. To prove that they will be here to stay for time to come: Chef Abbey has been in Chicago as of late auditioning for Food Network's Next Food Network Star. Exciting news: she got the call back and now has to create a demo video to make it to the semi finals. Tonight would have been a nice night to try Republic on the cheap as they hosted a "Burgers or Bust" event spotlighting all sorts of gourmet burgers. To further make the point that Republic is here to stay (and to make a shameless plug for On Broadway) is that they are committed to the Green Bay's Taste On Broadway event happening August 6th!





MMG
"Eat Food, Not Too Much, Mostly Plants." ~Michael Pollan

According to the GBPG:
The project stalled last year when the softening of the economy prevented Vetter from being able to find investors. He changed the scope of the project and designed a new financing plan that required a $3.5 million loan from Green Bay, at 5.5 percent interest for seven years.

The plan also involved a 30-month loan of $4.5 million from the Calumet County Bank. Finally, it also included a plan to use tax credits provided by the Wisconsin Housing and Economic Development Authority to raise the rest of the cash.

The city recently learned the company that typically deals with WHEDA to sell those tax credits has gone bankrupt, setting the project back once again, City Attorney Allison Swanson told the Redevelopment Authority on Tuesday. And because of the poor state of the economy, those tax credits are a tough sell, even though they have an enormous rate of return for investors, Economic Development Director Derek Lord told the authority.

RDA president Harry Maier favored imposing a hard deadline on Vetter to allow the city to go with a different developer if the project fails to move ahead. But Lord persuaded the authority to wait to see what happens with WHEDA's tax credits.
***
So eventually the RDA will have to find and negotiate with a new developer and new financing. I predict something maybe by 2020!

According to the GBPG:
The project stalled last year when the softening of the economy prevented Vetter from being able to find investors. He changed the scope of the project and designed a new financing plan that required a $3.5 million loan from Green Bay, at 5.5 percent interest for seven years.

The plan also involved a 30-month loan of $4.5 million from the Calumet County Bank. Finally, it also included a plan to use tax credits provided by the Wisconsin Housing and Economic Development Authority to raise the rest of the cash.

The city recently learned the company that typically deals with WHEDA to sell those tax credits has gone bankrupt, setting the project back once again, City Attorney Allison Swanson told the Redevelopment Authority on Tuesday. And because of the poor state of the economy, those tax credits are a tough sell, even though they have an enormous rate of return for investors, Economic Development Director Derek Lord told the authority.

RDA president Harry Maier favored imposing a hard deadline on Vetter to allow the city to go with a different developer if the project fails to move ahead. But Lord persuaded the authority to wait to see what happens with WHEDA's tax credits.
***
So eventually the RDA will have to find and negotiate with a new developer and new financing. I predict something maybe by 2020!

Good grief Charlie Brown (aka John Vetter)...:rofl:

from gbpg today..

Wisconsin partners with Talgo for high-speed trains
the associated press • July 17, 2009


MADISON — Wisconsin has agreed to a $47 million deal with Spanish train manufacturer Talgo for two 14-car passenger trains.

The cars would replace the passenger cars that currently run between Milwaukee and Chicago.

They would be built with parts manufactured in Spain and assembled at plants in Wisconsin. Gov. Jim Doyle says that could create as many as 80 jobs in the state.

Each train will have a capacity of 420 passengers, a 20 percent increase over the current cars.

The agreement includes an option to buy two more trains if the state gets federal stimulus money for extending rail service from Milwaukee to Madison.

Doyle announced the deal Friday morning. He says the agreement marks the beginning of high-speed rail in Wisconsin.

^^ awesome!

too bad we aren't purchasing vehicles from American manufacturers though. oh well

Good grief Charlie Brown (aka John Vetter)...:rofl:

I admire John Vetter's stick-to-it-tivness. He's had every curve ball thrown at him with his Green Bay developments and yet he keeps plugging away. I'm sure most developers would have long since walked away.

I admire John Vetter's stick-to-it-tivness. He's had every curve ball thrown at him with his Green Bay developments and yet he keeps plugging away. I'm sure most developers would have long since walked away.I totally agree, no way would one else stick it out thie long. If there were any seroius developers out there to take Mr. Vetter's place I am sure one would have surfaced by now.

from gbpg today..

Wisconsin partners with Talgo for high-speed trains
the associated press • July 17, 2009


MADISON — Wisconsin has agreed to a $47 million deal with Spanish train manufacturer Talgo for two 14-car passenger trains.

The cars would replace the passenger cars that currently run between Milwaukee and Chicago.

They would be built with parts manufactured in Spain and assembled at plants in Wisconsin. Gov. Jim Doyle says that could create as many as 80 jobs in the state.

Each train will have a capacity of 420 passengers, a 20 percent increase over the current cars.

The agreement includes an option to buy two more trains if the state gets federal stimulus money for extending rail service from Milwaukee to Madison.

Doyle announced the deal Friday morning. He says the agreement marks the beginning of high-speed rail in Wisconsin.

Is this the right company? TalgoUSA (http://www.talgousa.com/)

While I was reading the PG I noticed the poll of the week "Do you agree with the plan to eliminate the downtown Green Bay trolley bus?I know that we touched this subject a while back, in fact it was more of the actual trolley talk, but anyways, I feel that a continuous downtown loop that includes the core east side dt area and the west side Broadway area that operated completely independent at a more frequent interval would be highly beneficial and would serve as a collector to a mini-hub that you could transfer to a metro route if desired. Any thoughts, anyone one here ride the metro? I have taken it several times, and boy am I sure glad I have the option to drive...

If intersted here is the link to the metro blog which discusses the proposed route changes. Link (http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/ftp/Blog/index.html)

While I was reading the PG I noticed the poll of the week I know that we touched this subject a while back, in fact it was more of the actual trolley talk, but anyways, I feel that a continuous downtown loop that includes the core east side dt area and the west side Broadway area that operated completely independent at a more frequent interval would be highly beneficial and would serve as a collector to a mini-hub that you could transfer to a metro route if desired. Any thoughts, anyone one here ride the metro? I have taken it several times, and boy am I sure glad I have the option to drive...

If intersted here is the link to the metro blog which discusses the proposed route changes. Link (http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/ftp/Blog/index.html)

I agree, in theory. Put another way, I agree that this will be true at another time. I don't know if it's the right time yet. As much as we want downtown to be vibrant, with lots of people using public transportation, wishing for it won't make it happen. I think it will, in time, but right now we're in the middle of a "perfect storm" of economic conditions. As much as I hate to say this about downtown (and my 401k, for that matter) I think that if we can hold our ground & not make things worse, we're succeeding. Making progress may be a couple years away..

(philosophicatal rant coming)

In some ways, this economic downturn may be a good thing. Let's face it. Not everyone SHOULD be driving Escalades & living in 4000 ft houses. If the population as a whole can get priorities back in check, it may be a good thing in the long run. In the meantime, I'm funding my retirement fund solely wth powerball tickets. When I have my 10,000 ft house on the bay, I will DEFINITELY have my servants supporting the downtown development..

;)

First off, Kramerica and I were downtown Friday evening taking a bit of an extended look at progress on the CityDeck (after eating at Al's!). I think it's looking GREAT so far. I'm very excited. They are starting to lay the ipe decking on the Walnut St. end, as well as the associated built-in benches, and the posts for the railing. It all looks like real quality so far. Some areas are a bit hard to figure out how they are going to look, but to me what's done so far looks really nice. This next couple of months is going to be really exciting as the project comes together in really noticeable ways.

I admire John Vetter's stick-to-it-tivness. He's had every curve ball thrown at him with his Green Bay developments and yet he keeps plugging away. I'm sure most developers would have long since walked away.

I agree. At the same time, and I have NO information to back this up, it's just a guess, I wonder if part of his stick-to-itivness is due to getting himself in a financial pickle. I'd guess it's some of both. I think he really does want to develop the Younker's site, but I also think he must have enough money stuck in this that it's difficult to walk away from without getting some return.

I agree, in theory. Put another way, I agree that this will be true at another time. I don't know if it's the right time yet. As much as we want downtown to be vibrant, with lots of people using public transportation, wishing for it won't make it happen.

I pretty much agree. I'd like to see increased public transportation as much as anyone, but the systems we choose have to succeed. A trolley loop that isn't used today is a setback for the future when increased density would give one a better chance to succeed. I think we're a way off from transit being a necessity to get people to live or visit downtown, so I think we can afford to wait on funding a "trolley" loop when those funds could be used to create or preserve more important bus lines.

In some ways, this economic downturn may be a good thing.

I think this is part of free-market philosophy. No economy can just go up all the time. And as we saw with dot-coms in the 90s and housing in the 00s, a successful business model will get beat to death by people hoping to jump on the trend and make a quick buck. At some point the economy has to cleanse itself of some of that. This can SUCK for people who made no bad decisions and get caught up in the downturn, and arguments can be made about the degree of public regulation that's wise to have to moderate cycles of boom and bust, but I don't think anyone who's serious can argue that economic corrections aren't necessary to deal with excesses.

Here is the Gov announcing (http://www.wbay.com/Global/category.asp?C=169373&clipId=&topVideoCatNo=14980&topVideoCatNoB=97802&topVideoCatNoC=139164&topVideoCatNoD=132753&topVideoCatNoE=143794&autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=3964563) Wisconsin's first "High Speed" train purchase.

This is not for the Green Bay run, but it is the first step towards that.

The train was purchased from a Spanish company but will be assembled in Wisconsin, creating 80 jobs here. I got a kick out of the commenters over on the P-G forum when this was announced....people complaining about how this train was purchased from a Spanish company instead of a U.S. company....like we can just walk down to the neighborhood high speed train store around the corner and buy one! Because of our car culture, the U.S. just doesn't have much of a passenger train manufacturing presence here in the States. Demand is growing, though, so here's an opportunity, and I hope some U.S. (better yet, Wisconsin companies) get all aboard with this.

It is amazing you go to LaCrosse and see what they did to their riverfront and come to Green Bay and see what they are doing all you can say is the people behind the Green Bay revitalization are incompetent and really need to be held accountable for the failures of the downtown.

If I could play god here for a moment I would tell Vetter thanks and have a nice day.

Next...put the Childrens museum on site 4 or whatever. At least get that built.

Completely clear the younkers site so it doesn't look like GB was a battle ground in WWIII.

Tear down that stupid mall once and for all.

Let the economy regroup and then seek out new developers for the younkers/mall sites.

I know at one time they wanted a signature tower for site 4 but in GB 'tower' means 5 floors. Why bother.

Forget that. Focus on using some of the mall site for a 'tower' maybe in 2011 if things are better. Besides...if you build something over 15 floors it would look better surrounded by buildings 2-8 stories tall than right out in front and blocking everything behind it. I think the mall is the real primo land..not walnut and washington. The childrens museum would look better on the corner.

Younkers site should ultimately go for a sharp modern glass condo.something modest but nice and with a little spice to it....about 8 floors tall with a family restaurant on the TOP (I miss the Terrace room and would like to see a sky lounge dt) floor..retail on the ground and 6 floors of condos/apts .


For the mall I'd like to see a tower of around 15-18 floors..mostly office and retail and some upscale living......and then surround with buildings in the 2-5 floor range of lower and medium scale living,retail and services.


You could maybe put a 4 floor parking ramp under the river front condo to give it some height w/o having to fill units. It would be a 12 story building but only 6 floors of units to sell/rent.

Then take the parking lot in front of Bosses and make it into a city plaza w/ stone benches and a fountain and some greenery. Use it for art street and maybe a summer weekend marketplace....not so much a 'farmers market' but more what you see at bayfest and art street. Something to bring life to that side of the river other than bar drunks.



Simple and direct can stil be nice and useful. GB is never going to just sprout up with multiple glass towers and all of that. GB is always going to be small time.

But.

As this whole deal as gone on I've come to realize that while these structures are nice what really matters is the people.

Look at Broadway any night of the week and then look on Wed' nights. Wednesday nights it has the same buildings but it's the PEOPLE that give it life.

GB has a lot of work to do as far as building structures that are needed DT but the ultimate goal shouldn't be to look good on a postcard or Monday Night Football but to get people DT...lots of people every day..not just Wed. nights.


GB's problem isn't in taking a conservative approach. Conservative can still be really cool and useful and modern and exciting.

GB's problem is they often look cheap and their choice of design and style is to say the least bland and uninspired.

^^Chicago Envy I agree with you!

I'd like for them to scrap the hideous design for the children's parking ramp...errr, museum...., and build something better for a children's museum. The kids deserve more than an ugly parking ramp.

The rest of your post makes a lot of sense to me as well.

What can we do to make any of this happen?

In case any of you are interested in what they are drawing up for Histroric Downtown De Pere, or would like to share your input there is a meeting coming up in August with Planning & Design. The Details:

Downtown De Pere Plan

Mark your calendars!

Come to the De Pere City Hall to Share Your Vision for Downtown

The City and RDg Planning & Design are hosting a downtown visioning meeting. This is a chance for your voice to be heard and we would encourage residents and business owners to attend this public meeting.

When: Monday, August 3, 2009

Time: 7:00 p.m.

Place: De Pere City Hall
Second Floor Council Chambers
335 S. Broadway Street
De Pere, WI 54115

Any questions, please call the City's Planning Department at 339-4043/Ext. 1249.

Due to construction near the City Hall, residents are reminded that there is extra parking available at the parking lot on Front Street, directly across from City Hall. Residents who cannot attend the meeting are encouraged to e-mail their concerns to the City's planning department: kpabich@mail.de-pere.org.



Also, a nice website regarding the redevelopment plan:
http://www.rdgusa.com/crp/depere/

It is amazing you go to LaCrosse and see what they did to their riverfront and come to Green Bay and see what they are doing all you can say is the people behind the Green Bay revitalization are incompetent and really need to be held accountable for the failures of the downtown.


Not to offend anyone, but how many drowning deaths have happened in GB do to the beauty and serenity of the Fox?? That's what I thought.

Gb 1 - Lacrosse 0

Lacrosse is a wonderful unique area, the whole Mississippi River corridor is amazing. But to seek accountability on the failure of dt Green Bay, I think that GM and Chrysler are already bankrupt so the city can't go after them...

that leaves Ford.:lol:

^^Chicago Envy I agree with you!

I'd like for them to scrap the hideous design for the children's parking ramp...errr, museum...., and build something better for a children's museum. The kids deserve more than an ugly parking ramp.

The rest of your post makes a lot of sense to me as well.

What can we do to make any of this happen?

Well, we could take our voices and opinions away from this forum for a night, hold a get together similar to the one several of you had awhile back with Steve Schneider at the Bellin Building and invite Steve, Jeff Mirkes, Greg Larson, Dan Roarty, Naletta Burr, Rob Strong, Derek Lord and maybe even Mayor Schmitt. Let these people know that there is a lot of pride, care, enthusiasm and interest in downtown from Green Bay's citizens and even some from further away (ie, me-La Crosse). Let them know that there is a lot of civic pride and maybe they would be willing to discuss ideas, while we can offer some back. Maybe this is a pipe dream, but maybe it just takes one of us who actually know these people to give us a plug.

gbmphillips-The biggest thing that downtown La Crosse and its riverfront have has going for it, is that much of its original downtown buildings remain intact, giving it charm and appeal. I am not going to beat a dead horse here as we are all very well aware of what the mall did, otherwise we would have much of the same historic appeal as La Crosse. What's done is done. People seem to forget that we still have some gems downtown that can be built upon and enhanced. As far as the riverfront, La Crosse has Riverside Park next to the Mississippi River, surving as the public gathering green space between the water and downtown. This does add beauty and is much like the original John Nolen plan (1921? Puant, help?) for Green Bay between the bridges. Though it took longer and won't be green, we are getting something special in the CityDeck. Thanks for the good words on it, Danillo. From what I have heard, the built in benches will be very unique and vary in size. There will be a splash pad near the underpass of the Younkers building, LED lighting underneath the benches and along the edges of the river wall and piers, overhead lighting along the walkways and uplighting under the trees that they will be planting. Riverside works for La Crosse and this will work for us.

Chicagoenvy-I do agree with you in that I would like to see a range of 2-8 story buildings constructed much like a traditional downtown setting on the mall site, combined with a couple of taller buildings (12-18 stories). Since mainly the street side will be visible, the focus can be on sharp and detailed aesthetics there, while saving money overall on the building (s) since it won't be a stand alone structure. You can create diversity and better occupancy rates with this type of development. As far as the talls, I really wish that some of Green Bay's larger companies would help invest in downtown. I know that Shopko has, but I really want them to be headquartered downtown. There was talk of them once selling there current headquarters to the mall for redevelopment and them moving downtown. Seriously, they don't need to build a structure for themselves, but imagine a 18 story tower combining Shopko, Associated Bank and maybe even Schneider. This would also serve as a good recruiting tool for perspective employees of these companies.

I do respectfully disagree with your thoughts on the Younkers building and that is nothing more than a matter of taste. Whether one likes it or not, the Younkers building is a historic building and could be considered a landmark building. While it leaves something to be desired now, this building could be really sharp. It is a strong structure, original warehouse, tall ceilings and exposed beams, and has a water tower that could also be a light tower (ie, Vetter's plan). You could put some serious detail into this and it could be gem. I like the riverfront having the older, industrial feel and I think this building along with the Flats could look pretty decent with the ipe wood of the boardwalk. You can have the newer, glassy buildings with the mall site, federal courthouse (has anyone heard anything with this?), Daily Planet site among others.

Random thought: As far as Larsen Green talking about recruitment of speciality stores such as a Whole Foods or Trader Joe's, does anyone else other than myself think that a Urban Outfitters (clothing) would be a draw there? It fits the criteria and anyone I have ever been in in that type of setting (State Street, Madison and Chicago) has been packed.

Well, we could take our voices and opinions away from this forum for a night, hold a get together similar to the one several of you had awhile back with Steve Schneider at the Bellin Building and invite Steve, Jeff Mirkes, Greg Larson, Dan Roarty, Naletta Burr, Rob Strong, Derek Lord and maybe even Mayor Schmitt. Let these people know that there is a lot of pride, care, enthusiasm and interest in downtown from Green Bay's citizens and even some from further away (ie, me-La Crosse). Let them know that there is a lot of civic pride and maybe they would be willing to discuss ideas, while we can offer some back. Maybe this is a pipe dream, but maybe it just takes one of us who actually know these people to give us a plug.

You may be on to something. What came to mind was Kavarna's regular "Green Drinks" meetings...Could they do something similiar, only the group would be more about downtown stuff...Have the people you mention be 'guest speakers', host informal presentations/discussions, etc. Perhaps that's asking too much, or duplicating efforts (city council meetings are supposed to function in this manner, but unfortunately those have gone way too crazy and negative for most of us to waste time attending). But I do think a regular "Downtown Enthusiast" meeting would draw people, at least for a while.

....This does add beauty and is much like the original John Nolen plan (1921? Puant, help?) for Green Bay between the bridges..

Yep, 1921. FYI: I do have a nifty google "Search" form on my blog (on the right side just beneath the ship spotlights), you can type in "Nolen" or whatever you want and it will quickly return blog articles.

Although I haven't been posting much lately, I did go into the blogging thing with the intent of writing articles that would hopefully be "timeless" in that there's still lasting value in many of them. As I am an avid reader of history (particularly local history), when I started the blog I thought it was a good idea because there is soooo much history written about this area, but very little of it exists online...and online is where most people get their information nowadays.

Speaking of the blog...I still average 15 or so visitors per day. Not nearly the number per day that I had when I was posting regularly. However, kind of interesting...From time to time I see "spikes" in traffic. Today was one of those days where I had more than twice the average hits. I poked around and noticed a lot of people found their way into my blog after googling "Hotel Northland". NOt sure why people are looking for articles on that, but I do remember getting a similiar "spike" in traffic a while back, people were googling "Tower Drive Bridge"...wasn't sure why, until I found out that Oprah had rebroadcasted a show about the woman who was in the act of jumping off the bridge when the officer leaned over and caught her (I had written about that on an early blog post). The woman (Tina was her name) and the trooper were on the Oprah show. Anyway, so now something might be up in the news with HOtel Northland, but I don't know what.


I do respectfully disagree with your thoughts on the Younkers building and that is nothing more than a matter of taste. Whether one likes it or not, the Younkers building is a historic building and could be considered a landmark building. While it leaves something to be desired now, this building could be really sharp. It is a strong structure, original warehouse, tall ceilings and exposed beams, and has a water tower that could also be a light tower (ie, Vetter's plan). You could put some serious detail into this and it could be gem. I like the riverfront having the older, industrial feel and I think this building along with the Flats could look pretty decent with the ipe wood of the boardwalk.

Yeah, this was one part of ChicagoEnvy's post I didn't generally agree with either, but I thought a lot of other things he said were pretty much right on.

That's really cool, you have an early warning system in place!

I was checking out the RDA minutes and noticed a few intersting topics.

Derek Lord explained that the Port Authority is working closely with a European wind turbine manufacturer who is looking for a location as close to Minnesota as possible to unload cargo from an ocean going vessel. A number of communities are working with them and we would like permission to submit a proposal in the event that it works logistically for them to use the Greenfield site. The draft agreement provided gives a general framework of what they will be doing as well as the pricing structure, in the event that Green Bay works for them. The short term benefit would be providing a short term revenue source to the RDA. The long term benefit, if it works, is the potential to capture more short term uses, whether on this site or other areas along the Fox River.


Although not a true development it still would be intersting...

Also

Update on City Deck project.


Carl Weber, Director of Public Works, provided the following update. The project is a $12 million project with an upland area built from the river wall back to 50-60 feet with four different piers that extend out into the river. Late summer of last year an approximately $5 million contract was awarded to do Phase 1, which includes all of the upland work from the Nitschke Bridge to the mouth of the tunnel that goes under Walnut Street. The last piece of the City Deck, adjacent to the parcel known as Site 4 (parking lot south of the Nicolet Bank building), has to wait until the site is developed. Naming rights donations have been sought on all four piers. So far, Shopko donated toward the Shopko landing on the north end. There have also been donations from WPS, Procter & Gamble, and Bellin Hospital. We have not been successful yet in getting the major naming rights for the two larger piers, the Pine Street landing and the Cherry Street landing. $1,750,000 is being asked for these naming rights. Naming rights for the Walnut Street pier is $500,000. This pier is elevated above the water and can function as a fishing pier or an outlook area.

Phase I was awarded to Selmer Construction Co. and they started last fall. A number of issues have been encountered relating to the tie back system. Phase I is approximately half done. At this time, you can see a concrete strip all the way along the edge of the river wall, which is the support structure for the boardwalk portion, and some of the finished surface is in place. Some of the railing system is also visible. Most of the underground utility work is completed. There will be a splash pad where Pine Street comes through underneath the Younkers building, similar to splash pads in the City parks. The entire Phase I riverfront area is expected to be completed some time in October. Progress will become more visible as things are getting done with the underground work and getting into the surface work. Beyond the boardwalk there will be a paver area which is an extension of the Fox River Trail and connects on both the south and north end. By using the pavers it will help identify the area that will be appropriate for the bikers and rollerbladers. The pavers will also serve as a fire lane.

Phase 2 is going to be the floating docks, which will give an opportunity for the boating public to pull up to the docks and migrate to the downtown attractions. A $180,000 grant will be accepted from the Department of Natural Resources, and paperwork is expected soon for a $764,000 boating improvement grant from the National Fish & Wildlife Agency. This grant money will allow us to get the floating docks done. The docks are set up to accommodate 20-30 40 ft. boats. There was discussion on plans to accommodate kayaks, canoes, and smaller boats. There was discussion on the finger piers shown. They will be funded privately and will only be available for private use.


Link to RDA minutes (http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/mins_agd/minutes/20090714MN2231.html)

One hurdle after another. What is next now for unforeseen hurdles....So now Vetter apparently found a buyer for the tax credits. :bash:


http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/local_wluk_greenbay_financing_finally_falls_into_place_072220092125_rev1


Then you hear "da mayor" talk about, "We are getting closer" or "We finally see the finish line!" How many times have we heard this shit before.

Hey,
I'm following up on my above post ... In order to gauge the interest in setting up a monthly get-together, please vote on the poll on Packerland Annals (http://www.packerland.blogspot.com/) within the next week.

The "What's Up Downtown" meetings were always popular, but I'm thinking way less formal...just a bunch of us meeting at say, Kavarna or someplace to have coffee or beer or whatever. Perhaps we could meet once per month...we could do this in conjunction with the "Green Drinks" group and meet on the 3rd Thursday of each month (after all, there is a lot we have in commo (http://packerland.blogspot.com/search/label/environmental%20issues)n). Let me know what you think and I'd be happy to organize this.

Seriously, they don't need to build a structure for themselves, but imagine a 18 story tower combining Shopko, Associated Bank and maybe even Schneider.
Count Schneider out, they just consolidated a number of their divisions into a new location out near the CBC. Great location and really nice building something you would never get in a downtown location.

Count Schneider out, they just consolidated a number of their divisions into a new location out near the CBC. Great location and really nice building something you would never get in a downtown location.

I dont think that I need to remind anyone how subjective this statement is... but just to discredit this statement, its located on the west side so it cant be a great location and if I worked there and didn't own a car it would be a really long bus trip, but gas is cheap now, so why worry.

Let me know what you think and I'd be happy to organize this.

I'm in, just set a date and a location and we can go from there, maybe we can set a tour and hit a bunch of different places.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/images-4.jpg

Interesting article about the Olde Main District in today's Press-Gazette. The article says Olde Maine may be moving toward becoming an art district, has 10 art galleries now, has quarterly "Gallery Nite" events," the Art Garage is planning on doubling its space, and the former Green Bay Canning Co. building near Three Corners is being looked at as a possible location for an arts & learning center promoting dance, theater and other arts. Terrific! Green Bay needs all that. Remember, too, that a while back United Way of Brown County moved into a historic building in the district.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090723/GPG0101/907230585/1207/GPG01/Economy-delaying-Olde-Main-District-s-rebirth

One hurdle after another. What is next now for unforeseen hurdles....So now Vetter apparently found a buyer for the tax credits.

Well, that's good news. Has anyone heard how the fundraising for the Children's Museum is going? How about Hagemeister Park, do they have their financing?