I do believe the layout was a factor. I have had several people who drive by the building often tell me they did not even realize Shopko Express was there. I just don't think it had a good retail feel to it.

Not to be argumentative, but wouldn't a big "SHOPKO EXPRESS" sign on the buiding solve that problem?

If they would have focused more on malt liquor, rolling papers, discount cigs, chore boy & cigars, I'm sure things would have been different! :)
I think with the store leaving will have a HUGE impact on future national chains moving in. Not that they were pounding at the door, but they will be reminded of the colossal failure of a chain that tried it and failed every time they see the empty building for the next how many years.

A thought on rail. I know people here believe that it is a necessity to have. Maybe it is maybe it isn't but if they are going to pursue rail should we not have private business running it not the government. Let's be honest Amtrak is a huge failure.

I was reading about a study by Subsidyscope that said forty-one of Amtrak's 44 routes lost money in 2008, which meant that U.S. taxpayers spent about $32 subsidizing the cost of the typical Amtrak passenger in 2008.

If we are going to pursue rail in this country should we not find a way to make it profitable?

I think that the best way to make rail profitable would be to get government out of transportation all together. Make all the roads private and see what the cost to drive would be...

Maybe we should wait to think about alternatives until gas is over $4 again so people will compain that they cannot afford to put gas in their cars.

A thought on rail. I know people here believe that it is a necessity to have. Maybe it is maybe it isn't but if they are going to pursue rail should we not have private business running it not the government. Let's be honest Amtrak is a huge failure.

I was reading about a study by Subsidyscope that said forty-one of Amtrak's 44 routes lost money in 2008, which meant that U.S. taxpayers spent about $32 subsidizing the cost of the typical Amtrak passenger in 2008.

If we are going to pursue rail in this country should we not find a way to make it profitable?

You would think but I have had a good number of people not get what it was. When you look at this type of stores in other cities they always have street facing entrances and windows.

If they wanted to cater to the driving customers, maybe a good method would have been to put the entrance on the corner of the parking lot and Dousman street. That way you would have gotten the best of both worlds.

Either way, I will miss the store being here and I hope it is not years before someone else moves into the area.

On a related note, I wonder what the performance of other Shopko Express stores are like. Do they do well? Or is the entire concept not right for Shopko?

Not to be argumentative, but wouldn't a big "SHOPKO EXPRESS" sign on the buiding solve that problem?

Shopko Express actually had a good sized liquor section of which it appeared most items did not sell well or at all. I noted that some seasonal beers were still on the shelf way after the season ended and then some. It also looked like much of their wine section did not sell well.

If they would have focused more on malt liquor, rolling papers, discount cigs, chore boy & cigars, I'm sure things would have been different! :)
I think with the store leaving will have a HUGE impact on future national chains moving in. Not that they were pounding at the door, but they will be reminded of the colossal failure of a chain that tried it and failed every time they see the empty building for the next how many years.

A thought on rail. I know people here believe that it is a necessity to have. Maybe it is maybe it isn't but if they are going to pursue rail should we not have private business running it not the government. Let's be honest Amtrak is a huge failure.

I was reading about a study by Subsidyscope that said forty-one of Amtrak's 44 routes lost money in 2008, which meant that U.S. taxpayers spent about $32 subsidizing the cost of the typical Amtrak passenger in 2008.

If we are going to pursue rail in this country should we not find a way to make it profitable?

ALL forms of transportation are government-subsidized, here and around the world. The most heavily subsidized of all in this country are roads, which receive billions of federal, state and local dollars every year. (I'd like to see the per-capita number on funds spent on road construction and repair in this country.) Airports are subsidized. Ports are subsidized. Bus systems are subsidized. The money spent on rail is peanuts by comparison.

Amtrak is not a failure. If you lived along the Northeast Corridor from Boston to D.C, where it's heavily used each day, you'd see that. But neither is it necessarily a transportation model for the entire country. Seems to me rail is working and can work in this country along and around certain population corridors and centers like the Northeast, Chicago, Sacramento to San Diego, parts of the Southeast, etc. Plus certain long-distance excursion routes. But passenger rail is not for the entire country any more. Those days are gone.

Having said that, I would agree that everything reasonable should be done to make passenger rail as self-supporting as possible. People can propose Amtrak be shut down — and they do — but it's not going to happen. Make it better.

www.takepart.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/hsr-map.jpg



P.S. The Press-Gazette update today on the Shopko Express story says the building's owners plan to open up its street entrance on Broadway once the first floor is reconfigured for new tenants.

www.midwesthsr.org (Midwest Highspeed Rail Association)





www.newrails.org (LOCAL NewRails - Green Bay)

Rail, bus or any mass transit system is never really expected to be profitable. Their success is based on ridership more than anything. Considered a huge success, Minneapolis' Hiawatha Line (http://www.metrotransit.org/rail/index.asp) connected downtown to the Metrodome, Mall of America and the Airport (MSP) and last year generated about 9 million from fares but cost almost 24 million to operate and maintain and was built for 715 million in 2004. It has drastically outperformed estimates and plans are in the works to add up to 7 more lines across the city and suburbs. Besides airlines what transportation methods net a profit? All are heavily subsidized.

On Shopko Express... Poorly planned. On Broadway Inc. wanted a street facing entrance but Shopko didn't. Green Bay made the call to go ahead with Shopko's plan rather than loose it altogether. Also the business wasn't quite right for the location. It didn't have a expansive grocery selection so people still had to go to a regular grocer. It was only good for quick access if you forgot something and didn't want to make the run. I do believe a Walgreen's or CVS will fill that spot soon.

On Shopko Express... Poorly planned. On Broadway Inc. wanted a street facing entrance but Shopko didn't. Green Bay made the call to go ahead with Shopko's plan rather than loose it altogether. Also the business wasn't quite right for the location. It didn't have a expansive grocery selection so people still had to go to a regular grocer. It was only good for quick access if you forgot something and didn't want to make the run. I do believe a Walgreen's or CVS will fill that spot soon.

Agreed in all facets. Based on the article in today's paper, SMET indicated they could easily convert the floorplan to accomodate the entrance at the corner for the first floor. Walgreens and CVS have a track record and experience with downtown locations, where ShopKo did not and was entering unchartered territory. I give them credit for trying and investing in downtown Green Bay - but in the end credit is not enough to save this store.

A thought on rail. I know people here believe that it is a necessity to have. Maybe it is maybe it isn't but if they are going to pursue rail should we not have private business running it not the government. Let's be honest Amtrak is a huge failure.

I was reading about a study by Subsidyscope that said forty-one of Amtrak's 44 routes lost money in 2008, which meant that U.S. taxpayers spent about $32 subsidizing the cost of the typical Amtrak passenger in 2008.

If we are going to pursue rail in this country should we not find a way to make it profitable?

This issue has been debated to great lengths without anyone changing anyone else's mind. As such, all I'm going to say is that I type this from a Starbucks (where else) in downtown Seattle. I arrived here on Amtrak from Milwaukee. As such, and considering that all subsidies are waste when one does not benefit from them, but awesome when someone does, and considering that apparently the government just donated at least $32 towards my trip (probably more), I say, AWESOME use of taxpayer money!!! :banana:

Regarding the ShopKo Express. Too bad. Put me in the camp with those who believe that the location of the entrance was at most a minor factor in its demise. I think a corner entrance would have been superior, as would have been better signage and actual windows, but the main factor is insufficient population base at this time. Full credit to ShopKo for giving it a go.

Amtrak is not a failure. If you lived along the Northeast Corridor from Boston to D.C, where it's heavily used each day, you'd see that. But neither is it necessarily a transportation model for the entire country. Seems to me rail is working and can work in this country along and around certain population corridors and centers like the Northeast, Chicago, Sacramento to San Diego, parts of the Southeast, etc. Plus certain long-distance excursion routes. But passenger rail is not for the entire country any more. Those days are gone.
Actually, the Amtrak long-distance routes are the highest-performing routes. The NEC hemorrhages money when the infrastructure costs are taken into consideration (Amtrak owns the NEC, whereas it "rents" track from the railroads elsewhere), and the corridor trains radiating from Chicago and other cities don't do well either. The long-distance trains have a much higher passenger loading than the corridor trains (% of seats filled) and that leads to better financial performance.

Don't think of long-distance trains as end-to-end destinations. Let's look at the Empire Builder, from Chicago to Seattle. Most people wouldn't want to spend two days to make that trip, although many do. But there is a huge market for people that want to go 250-400 or so miles, a distance many people would hate to drive, but a distance where the "slower" train can be competitive with the "faster" airplane because of airport issues. The long-distance train is really a collection of 250-400 mile routes. And a well-designed LD route has a lot of big destinations. The Empire Builder has Chicago, Milwaukee, Madison, Dells, St Paul, Fargo, Grand Forks, Glacier, Spokane, and Seattle. Plus all the small towns in ND and MT for whom the train is a major transportation mode because of the lack of freeways and big airports. Additionally, with the train you can make intermediate stops easily. Danillo went from MKE to SEA, but he also stopped for a day at Glacier National Park. That would have been difficult to do if he was using the airlines.

AMTRAK
I’m willing to subsidize passenger trains. Six years ago I commuted for work 200 miles roundtrip on Amtrak every weekend for a year, to and from Portland, Oregon, on the Coast Starlight. As someone here mentioned before, trains cut through narrow places where highways can't go, so the scenery is contemplative, whether you're in the countryside or the heart of the city. Commuting was great. For breakfast, hearty oatmeal with cherries, brown sugar, walnuts and cream. In the evening, Obsidian Stout in the bistro car, where the ceiling end-to-end was stylized silk, a batik of the coastline, with glittering LEDs as the cities and towns at dusk. A real pleasure, good company, great views. And I hear it has only improved since then.

SHOPKO
I’m sure the down economy was a factor for Shopko, but as the manager told me, Shopko Express primarily markets consumer staples, more than discretionary-spending items. And I would say the population is particularly dense; the area has more than enough density to support such a store.

Hopefully, restructuring the building will make the next venture a success, but not just because it will improve visibility and foot traffic. What underlies this discussion of building design, of suburban vs. urban building styles, is not just the pragmatic (and important) considerations of visibility, accommodating drivers vs. pedestrians, or making doorways and driveways more accessible.

The fact is, the way an urban business is designed is particularly relevant because people in urban environments are by necessity sensitive to insider/outsider cues. An urban environment--dense, rich, and layered--supports the cultural integrity of multiple ethnicities and lifestyles, but only because insider/outsider cues make it possible for several worlds to coexist in the same place at the same time, while still providing a common realm for all inhabitants. That intact diversity in the context of a common space is what lends vibrancy to urban living.

Most urban dwellers--in this case, a critical mass, I would argue--don't frequent a store that, in effect, telegraphs a signal that they are outsiders--at best, provisional guests at the store, and at worst, not welcome.

You might think people who need milk and aspirin and catfood would just run to the nearest store, but urban life is more complicated than that. A neighborhood--particularly the cohesive cultural communities within an urban multicultural neighborhood--will vet a store. Some comments from my neighbors: "That store is so unwelcoming!" and, "It's like, instead of saying, ‘Shop here!’ they are saying, 'Nobody from the neighborhood shop here, you bums!!"

I don't think Shopko picked up on how important it is to actively attract the diverse customer base in an urban neighborhood. You don’t just hang out a shingle and wait. And you definitely don’t send outsider cues to anyone! The store seemed to beckon across the river for upscale professional clientele, not realizing the exclusionary message that would convey to the diverse Broadway District neighborhood, the store’s actual customer base, which the store seemed to turn its back on. So on the one hand, you have a diverse neighborhood sensitive to tacit cues, and on the other hand, a store seeming to project ambivalence about whether it really wants to draw-in that clientele.

And I would say the population is particularly dense; the area has more than enough density to support such a store.

...

The fact is, the way an urban business is designed is particularly relevant because people in urban environments are by necessity sensitive to insider/outsider cues. An urban environment--dense, rich, and layered--supports the cultural integrity of multiple ethnicities and lifestyles, but only because insider/outsider cues make it possible for several worlds to coexist in the same place at the same time, while still providing a common realm for all inhabitants. That intact diversity in the context of a common space is what lends vibrancy to urban living...

First, I'll be the first to agree that the store location would have been better with a more visible entrance (on the Main St. side if not the corner) and actual windows. However, to me there's a logical problem with your argument. With all of the neighborhoods in the area, you are arguing that there was a sufficient population base to support the store. Then you argue that the design should have been more urban, more pedestrian oriented. My disagreement is with your use of the word DENSITY. If there was enough population, there certainly wasn't enough within what most people would view as a walkable distance. As such, those people would have to drive there anyway. What there wasn't there, and what the Larsen Green project could theoretically have brought, is enough actual density to make the urban principles you outline more relevant to the success of that store.

Like I said, that store could have been better served by a Main. St. entrance that was both near the lot and visible from the street, better signs would have helped, as would windows. But it seems the principle problem was that the proposed residential that the store counted on when it opened, the residential that would have provided actual density, never materialized.

Let's look at the Empire Builder, from Chicago to Seattle. Most people wouldn't want to spend two days to make that trip, although many do. But there is a huge market for people that want to go 250-400 or so miles, a distance many people would hate to drive, but a distance where the "slower" train can be competitive with the "faster" airplane because of airport issues.

I was really surprised how, as went across Minnesota and North Dakota in the middle of the night, how every time I'd wake up and look around there would be different people sitting around me. This continued right across the country. People were hoping on and off all the time for 2 or 4 hour trips.

Danillo went from MKE to SEA, but he also stopped for a day at Glacier National Park. That would have been difficult to do if he was using the airlines.

Indeed! I got an amazing hike in at Glacier Park during my transit. Awesome.

Actually, the Amtrak long-distance routes are the highest-performing routes. The NEC hemorrhages money when the infrastructure costs are taken into consideration (Amtrak owns the NEC, whereas it "rents" track from the railroads elsewhere), and the corridor trains radiating from Chicago and other cities don't do well either. The long-distance trains have a much higher passenger loading than the corridor trains (% of seats filled) and that leads to better financial performance.

I never said the long-distance passenger rail route does not perform well. You almost seem to be suggesting the Northeast Corridor, Chicago hub and other corridor routes should be abandoned — or something — in favor of long-distance trains. When you look at the sheer number of people using the Northeast Corridor, seems to me it must be considered a huge success. IMO there's room for both types of trains — the cross-country runs (even when some people may not take them for the full distance) as well as the shorter routes near major cities.

Your posts, Kramerica, are usually about passenger rail. I've been trying to figure out just where you stand for some time now. One minute you seem to be pro-rail, the next minute, anti. If memory serves, you've indicated in the past you're a political conservative. Correct me if I'm wrong. Often, conservatives don't have much interest in passenger rail, at least in having government involved. Many would like to see the federal government pull funding from Amtrak altogether. So, if you will, could you explain just where you stand on passenger rail and Amtrak and what the role of the federal government should or should not be in this regard?

Most people wouldn't want to spend two days to make that trip, although many do. But there is a huge market for people that want to go 250-400 or so miles, a distance many people would hate to drive, but a distance where the "slower" train can be competitive with the "faster" airplane because of airport issues. The long-distance train is really a collection of 250-400 mile routes. And a well-designed LD route has a lot of big destinations. The Empire Builder has Chicago, Milwaukee, Madison, Dells, St Paul, Fargo, Grand Forks, Glacier, Spokane, and Seattle. Plus all the small towns in ND and MT for whom the train is a major transportation mode because of the lack of freeways and big airports. Additionally, with the train you can make intermediate stops easily. Danillo went from MKE to SEA, but he also stopped for a day at Glacier National Park. That would have been difficult to do if he was using the airlines.

Yes! Exactly right on!

AMTRAK
I’m willing to subsidize passenger trains. Six years ago I commuted for work 200 miles roundtrip on Amtrak every weekend for a year, to and from Portland, Oregon, on the Coast Starlight. As someone here mentioned before, trains cut through narrow places where highways can't go, so the scenery is contemplative, whether you're in the countryside or the heart of the city. Commuting was great. For breakfast, hearty oatmeal with cherries, brown sugar, walnuts and cream. In the evening, Obsidian Stout in the bistro car, where the ceiling end-to-end was stylized silk, a batik of the coastline, with glittering LEDs as the cities and towns at dusk. A real pleasure, good company, great views. And I hear it has only improved since then.

marseilles you don't post often but when you do, it's a nugget. Thanks for sharing your experience so so eloquently. I hope more and more people are catching on to these things.

Shopko Express actually had a good sized liquor section of which it appeared most items did not sell well or at all. I noted that some seasonal beers were still on the shelf way after the season ended and then some. It also looked like much of their wine section did not sell well.

Let's see, if I was thinking about buying beer somewhere in Green Bay, where on the list of liquor stores might Shopko be? Oh, there it is, at #258. Honestly, I never would have guessed that Shopko sold beer. I might have ventured in on my walks on Broadway to discover that, had the door been more inviting to pedestrians.

anything on watermark yet that everyone said would start by the end of october?

Hotel Northland story:

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=11395485

Hotel Northland story:

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=11395485

^^Ain't nothin' like that happenin' there while the mall is there blocking off Adams St.

First, I'll be the first to agree that the store location would have been better with a more visible entrance (on the Main St. side if not the corner) and actual windows. However, to me there's a logical problem with your argument. With all of the neighborhoods in the area, you are arguing that there was a sufficient population base to support the store. Then you argue that the design should have been more urban, more pedestrian oriented. My disagreement is with your use of the word DENSITY. If there was enough population, there certainly wasn't enough within what most people would view as a walkable distance. As such, those people would have to drive there anyway. What there wasn't there, and what the Larsen Green project could theoretically have brought, is enough actual density to make the urban principles you outline more relevant to the success of that store.

Like I said, that store could have been better served by a Main. St. entrance that was both near the lot and visible from the street, better signs would have helped, as would windows. But it seems the principle problem was that the proposed residential that the store counted on when it opened, the residential that would have provided actual density, never materialized.

I agree, Larsen Green will increase density on Broadway. I’m excited about it. And it’s true Shopko made it clear, in the initial press releases, that they anticipated further development would increase their consumer base.

But even without Larsen Green, the area is already dense and already urban. Actually, the manager at Shopko told me the statistics for the neighborhood west of the store show greater density than any other Shopko Express stores--enough, on paper, to support the store--and (in so many somewhat guarded words) the store was puzzled and stymied at not bringing those customers in.

An clip from last year about Shopko on Broadway:

"These kinds of stores draw from a very tight radius. In a densely populated area like this, its probably a mile or so," said Michael MacDonald, the company's chairman and chief executive officer.



The Broadway district is denser, in fact, than some other similarly urban, near-downtown art districts where I’ve lived. A big part of this is the fact that homes in all the neighboring streets, in a grid maybe four, five, six blocks out from Broadway, were divided into multiplexes to a ridiculous degree before the city finally put the kibosh on that activity. And in general, the lots are narrow and subdivided. When I purchased my home here, it had been divided into 2, then 4, then 6 little apartments, and its original lot was further divided many decades ago to accommodate a duplex and a four-plex. This is the story up and down the street. And units are more densely occupied--more residents in each, I mean--than further out in the residential areas of Green Bay. I love living in the Broadway district, so I may be biased, but in my experience with a lot of similar districts, the Broadway district neighborhood is urban, it’s dense, it’s diverse, and growing more so.

My point here is not about specifically increasing walkability. To me that’s essential, but in practice, mostly you walk when you can, and drive when you must, even sometimes when your destination is a couple of blocks away.

My point was that, if you are an urban dweller--whether you walk, or drive several blocks for services--you mostly don't frequent a store that, in effect, telegraphs a signal that you are an outsider to the store, or at best, a provisional guest. Most people living in suburbs don’t pay a lot of attention to that sort of signaling. But, as part of the layered multicultural nature of urban communities, people who live in urban areas have a necessarily more complicated perception of such cues.

Hope you're enjoying the Emerald City.

Puant--thanks for the comment!

Either way, I will miss the store being here and I hope it is not years before someone else moves into the area.

On a related note, I wonder what the performance of other Shopko Express stores are like. Do they do well? Or is the entire concept not right for Shopko?

The ShopKo Express store concept has been a goldmine in general with 5-6 more new stores opening in the next few months through the state. Which would be doubling the number of locations. (Also why I heard they are not ding a long "store closing sale" - they can just pack it up and ship to a new store that will open soon.

Again if ShopKo wanted to try urban vs suburban stores for the Express concept they should have "stolen" someone from CVS or Walgreens to head up their development of new stores. Walgreens especially seems to do well in both settings and even has opened stores within miles of older locations with both doing well.

And on the first note... I am guessing a CVS or Walgreens will be in there in the next year at the most... maybe as little as 6 months.

Amtrak is not a failure. If you lived along the Northeast Corridor from Boston to D.C, where it's heavily used each day, you'd see that. But neither is it necessarily a transportation model for the entire country. Seems to me rail is working and can work in this country along and around certain population corridors and centers like the Northeast, Chicago, Sacramento to San Diego, parts of the Southeast, etc. Plus certain long-distance excursion routes. But passenger rail is not for the entire country any more. Those days are gone.

Actually, the Amtrak long-distance routes are the highest-performing routes. The NEC hemorrhages money when the infrastructure costs are taken into consideration (Amtrak owns the NEC, whereas it "rents" track from the railroads elsewhere), and the corridor trains radiating from Chicago and other cities don't do well either. The long-distance trains have a much higher passenger loading than the corridor trains (% of seats filled) and that leads to better financial performance.

I never said the long-distance passenger rail route does not perform well. You almost seem to be suggesting the Northeast Corridor, Chicago hub and other corridor routes should be abandoned — or something — in favor of long-distance trains. When you look at the sheer number of people using the Northeast Corridor, seems to me it must be considered a huge success. IMO there's room for both types of trains — the cross-country runs (even when some people may not take them for the full distance) as well as the shorter routes near major cities.

Your posts, Kramerica, are usually about passenger rail. I've been trying to figure out just where you stand for some time now. One minute you seem to be pro-rail, the next minute, anti. If memory serves, you've indicated in the past you're a political conservative. Correct me if I'm wrong. Often, conservatives don't have much interest in passenger rail, at least in having government involved. Many would like to see the federal government pull funding from Amtrak altogether. So, if you will, could you explain just where you stand on passenger rail and Amtrak and what the role of the federal government should or should not be in this regard?

In your first post I took your comments as saying you think that long-distance passenger rail does not work in this country. I was just trying to point out that as good of a transportation system the NEC is, the LD routes actually outperform it in many areas and are a viable transportation option for the entire country. I was not trying to disparage the NEC or the corridor routes; just that the LD routes outperform them financially. (or in this realm, need less subsidy per passenger mile)

Yes, I'm a conservative. But transportation is one area where the government needs to be involved, because of the difficulty in directly charging costs to the user. The free market just can't do it alone. And I believe that an efficient transportation system is one of the backbones of our economy, and that is also a big role of government; to facilitate fair and efficient movement of goods and services so that the free market can work. And an efficient transportation system gives people choices and has a certain amount of redundancy built in to account for the inevitable problems. That's why I see roads, rail, air, and water to all be important to our economy.

Rail has not been given a fair chance by our government. In the three other modes of transport, the government owns the infrastructure (roads, sea ports, airports) and private operators own the vehicles (trucks, cars, freighters, airplanes). And that has been a very successful formula. But for the railroads, private industry owns both the infrastructure and the vehicles. I advocate for the government taking over the infrastructure and then the railroads can operate their freight trains on any rail line they choose. That would open the door to passenger rail operators to run passenger trains over government track.

But since that is a pipe dream, the government needs to make up for the disparity between modes by subsidizing Amtrak. Rail is by nature more efficient than highways, and oil prices will only go up and up as demand spikes and supply is flat. That makes efficiency so much more important, and rail can serve very well as transportation. We just need to develop it more and create a more robust network of passenger trains. At this point Amtrak is a bare-bones network with usually only one frequency per day. But if you create more routes and more frequencies, rail will be more and more useful because of new city pairs and a choice of departures.

Anyway, that's a bit rambling, but the basic point is that I'm pro-rail, 100%.

Again if ShopKo wanted to try urban vs suburban stores for the Express concept they should have "stolen" someone from CVS or Walgreens to head up their development of new stores. Walgreens especially seems to do well in both settings and even has opened stores within miles of older locations with both doing well.

And on the first note... I am guessing a CVS or Walgreens will be in there in the next year at the most... maybe as little as 6 months.
Walgreens just closed a store on Appleton's north side (it was on the NE corner of Northland and Oneida in what is actually an enclave island of Grand Chute Township) - and opened two new ones very close by. They are at the NW corner of Northland and Meade (formerly an Osco) and on the SE corner of Northland and Bennett (new construction), both in the City of Appleton. They are approximately 10-12 blocks apart. The closed store was halfway between the two new ones.

Another former Osco, located at College and Linwood on Appleton's west side, is now a CVS.

Mike

Rail has not been given a fair chance by our government. In the three other modes of transport, the government owns the infrastructure (roads, sea ports, airports) and private operators own the vehicles (trucks, cars, freighters, airplanes). And that has been a very successful formula. But for the railroads, private industry owns both the infrastructure and the vehicles. I advocate for the government taking over the infrastructure and then the railroads can operate their freight trains on any rail line they choose. That would open the door to passenger rail operators to run passenger trains over government track.
Don't you think that is quite amazing? I really wonder what the transportaion network in this country would be like if all the roads were owned by private companies.
I am not all that familiar with the operations of the railroad companies, but your idea seems to make sense. There are few major companies and at some point to move goods across the country you would need to ship on multiple carriers. Its intersting that over all these years the government has not steped in to purchase the failing lines, that were once the lifeline to many communities. At least in wisconsin the dot has purchased some of the lines and lease back to WSOR in hopes of maintaining service to many of these smaller communities. Maybe this is a discussion that can be brought up at the next get together.

My point here is not about specifically increasing walkability. To me that’s essential, but in practice, mostly you walk when you can, and drive when you must, even sometimes when your destination is a couple of blocks away.



This statement got me thinking..

In theory, I agree with you. I know that in other areas of the country it's true. BUT..in this area, I think there are going to be a lot of "habits to break" before it's really going to be we see this philosophy fully adopted.
Historically, GB has been completely car-oriented. Now that there are some areas that are more walkable, like downtown, it's going to take some time for people to realize "I don't need to get in my car to go there".

I'm willing to bet that even those who are within walking distance of Shopko Express still drive there, because it's so ingrained into our minds that if we are going somewhere, we get in the car.

I know I'm guilty of this. I live within 2 blocks of Hansen's on Gray St. There have been many times that I wanted to pick up a pizza or something, & without thinking, got in my car. It didn't occur to me that it was STUPID to get in my car & drive 2 blocks.

Don't you think that is quite amazing? I really wonder what the transportaion network in this country would be like if all the roads were owned by private companies.
I am not all that familiar with the operations of the railroad companies, but your idea seems to make sense. There are few major companies and at some point to move goods across the country you would need to ship on multiple carriers. Its intersting that over all these years the government has not steped in to purchase the failing lines, that were once the lifeline to many communities. At least in wisconsin the dot has purchased some of the lines and lease back to WSOR in hopes of maintaining service to many of these smaller communities. Maybe this is a discussion that can be brought up at the next get together.
There was a bit of a stutter-step in that direction during the early to mid 20th century with 'union' passenger stations (single stations that serve multiple separate operating companies, much like most commercial airport terminals do now), but it never went beyond that, other than for a few scattered 'trackage rights' agreements between the freight railroads. In fact, there was once a plan in the early 20th century to develop a 'union' station on Green Bay's west side.

Reorganizing North American railroads as semi-public facilities open to use by anyone with the proper qualifications and equipment and willing to pay the necessary tolls is an interesting idea and could, among other things, make developing new rail corridors easier. The difficulty, of course, is getting between what we have now and that ideal (a BIG difficulty, indeed). And the infrastructure need not be 'government' owned. Just like with all of the other modes, some of those other facilities are owned/maintained by private and/or other non-government entities (ie, private toll roads). Perhaps a separate entity trying to develop such a 'toll railroad' on a new routing somewhere could be a step in that direction. The recently built Alameda Corridor in Los Angeles might be such a facility.

Common private ownership of North American rail infrastructure and operating equipment goes back to the very beginning of rail transport and was found elsewhere in the World - for example, Railways in the UK were all organized the same way until they were swept up by the early post-WWII Labour government's drive to nationalize pretty much everything in the country (creating state-owned 'British Railways') and were generally reorganized on that ideal during their de-nationalization by the Tories in the 1990s. Local Brits will have more info on how they are now run.

Mike

Rail has not been given a fair chance by our government. In the three other modes of transport, the government owns the infrastructure (roads, sea ports, airports) and private operators own the vehicles (trucks, cars, freighters, airplanes). And that has been a very successful formula. But for the railroads, private industry owns both the infrastructure and the vehicles. I advocate for the government taking over the infrastructure and then the railroads can operate their freight trains on any rail line they choose. That would open the door to passenger rail operators to run passenger trains over government track.



Its intersting that over all these years the government has not steped in to purchase the failing lines, that were once the lifeline to many communities. QUOTE]

[QUOTE=mgk920;45376317]There was a bit of a stutter-step in that direction during the early to mid 20th century....

Common private ownership of North American rail infrastructure and operating equipment goes back to the very beginning of rail transport and was found elsewhere in the World....
Mike

I was thinking about what I know of the American streetcar conspiracy. That was when, in the 1930s and 1940s, GM, Firestone and Standard Oil conspired to buy up around 100 light-rail/streetcar lines in 45 cities across the country, like Minneapolis, Los Angeles, etc, in order to dismantle them and hook the country on busses and automobiles, a very successful strategy which, I gather, had at least some influence in tipping the rest of the country's towns and cities wholly towards petroleum-based transportation systems (vs. light rail). Not everyone realizes that light rail systems were the norm in communities across the country by the 1920s. The three companies and a couple other co-conspirators were convicted of conspiracy on antitrust violations for this at the end of the 1940s. The CEOs were fined $1 each (maybe we should try that with UnitedHeath, WellPoint & Aetna.)

You always hear that this triumvirate “ripped up the rails.” But I wonder, did they buy the actual rails as well as the streetcar systems? Did the cities and regions own the rails themselves? If the govt had owned the actual rails, maybe that would have changed everything.

It's true what Marseilles said. Many US cities did have great streetcar systems that were unfortunatly removed. Only two real systems exist in the US, San Franciso and Portland (http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/pdf/loop_fact_sheet_and_map_may09.pdf) (warning PDF). Portland's opened in 2001 and is the first built since WWII. Advantages of street car systems are: cost, firmilarity because it follows established roads, and is realitivley cheap to build and maintain.

http://stephenrees.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/800px-portlandstreetcar5.jpg

So got me to thinking, would something like this be possible in Green Bay? (Obviously at a much smaller scale) Personally I would prefer a more old time look like SF streetcars, it's more novel and would be a tourist attraction. Lines would run up and down Washington and Broadway and Main and it would have to be free. Ok, lets see if this works to get the talk off Shopko for a bit.

It could stop at the new corner door at Shopko.

It could stop at the new corner door at Shopko.

Just like it will stop at the new city hall & it's additional 5 stories of glory.

Seriously, that's a great PDF. Portland's public transportation system is a tour de force. The bus system works perfectly with the streetcars and light rail, and riding within downtown is free. It's a pretty big grid downtown, though. And buses do a lot of the work.

The most brilliant part of the Portland system, I have to say, has nothing to do with engineering and might be more immediately within reach here in Green Bay. It's the astonishing civility of the drivers, unlike anything you find elsewhere. I am not sure how they did it, whether the human resources dept screened for cheerfulness, or set up pleasantry focus groups, or whether they just hand out Prozac with the paychecks, or what, but somehow they achieved it. It was definitely a deliberate strategy, and it must be replicable in other places, like Green Bay.

It makes a huge difference. I’d go so far as to say it changes the demographic of the ridership. No one wants to trade their dignity for a bus ride. Consequently, all too often, people tend to ride the bus only when all else fails. It’s too disempowering. But I used to look forward to riding public transportation in Portland. Portland is a big city, but many times, at the end of a night, the drivers would go out of their way to drop the last few passengers at their doors--like a taxi service!

In your first post I took your comments as saying you think that long-distance passenger rail does not work in this country. I was just trying to point out that as good of a transportation system the NEC is, the LD routes actually outperform it in many areas and are a viable transportation option for the entire country. I was not trying to disparage the NEC or the corridor routes; just that the LD routes outperform them financially. (or in this realm, need less subsidy per passenger mile)

Yes, I'm a conservative. But transportation is one area where the government needs to be involved, because of the difficulty in directly charging costs to the user. The free market just can't do it alone. And I believe that an efficient transportation system is one of the backbones of our economy, and that is also a big role of government; to facilitate fair and efficient movement of goods and services so that the free market can work. And an efficient transportation system gives people choices and has a certain amount of redundancy built in to account for the inevitable problems. That's why I see roads, rail, air, and water to all be important to our economy.

Rail has not been given a fair chance by our government. In the three other modes of transport, the government owns the infrastructure (roads, sea ports, airports) and private operators own the vehicles (trucks, cars, freighters, airplanes). And that has been a very successful formula. But for the railroads, private industry owns both the infrastructure and the vehicles. I advocate for the government taking over the infrastructure and then the railroads can operate their freight trains on any rail line they choose. That would open the door to passenger rail operators to run passenger trains over government track.

But since that is a pipe dream, the government needs to make up for the disparity between modes by subsidizing Amtrak. Rail is by nature more efficient than highways, and oil prices will only go up and up as demand spikes and supply is flat. That makes efficiency so much more important, and rail can serve very well as transportation. We just need to develop it more and create a more robust network of passenger trains. At this point Amtrak is a bare-bones network with usually only one frequency per day. But if you create more routes and more frequencies, rail will be more and more useful because of new city pairs and a choice of departures.

Anyway, that's a bit rambling, but the basic point is that I'm pro-rail, 100%.

Thanks for the elaboration and the clarification. Good points. I'll take another look at it later when I have a bit more time.

I'm in your neck of the woods tonight. Thoroughly enjoying the urban feel of Wisconsin Avenue and downtown Milwaukee. Had dinner at the Pot Belly restaurant kitty-corner from the Riverside Theater and watched the world go by. Young urban professionals. Old urban professionals. Local folk. Joggers. Bikers. Buses. Marquette University students. Couples hand-in-hand. Amtrak whistles a couple blocks away. Green Bay's trying to get just a slice of that for its own downtown once it fully transitions from the days when it relied on major retail. But it takes time.

Will be taking Amtrak from Milwaukee to Chicago in a few weeks and will be posting here for some travel tips. Would take the train from Green Bay if we could.

^^Excellent discussion!

I'm happy to stop blathering myself and rather just sit back and listen to all of you guys. Keep it up!

This statement got me thinking..

In theory, I agree with you. I know that in other areas of the country it's true. BUT..in this area, I think there are going to be a lot of "habits to break" before it's really going to be we see this philosophy fully adopted.
Historically, GB has been completely car-oriented.

OK well I have one comment: I have a different thought on this. I disagree. "Historically", Green Bay is where it is because of water transportation (the Bay and the Fox River). That's where the city started, and later on the railroad integrated with the port to really make this city a transportation hub. Rail did influence the design o a lot of the history and design of this city. The city had trolleys that ran around town and even an interurban trolley that at one point allowed a person to ride streetcar from Green Bay almost all the way to the east coast. The design of the older parts of the city also largely accomodated walkers (which used to be a "given"). In any case, the "core" of the city was built around transportation that is NOT "car-oriented". Now granted, since WWII almost everything became car-oriented and even the inner core was gutted to insert cars. There's where a lot of shit went downhill, IMO. LIke so many things, Americans took a technology (cars) and went way too far with it to the point of overuse and abuse.

Only two real systems exist in the US, San Franciso and Portland (http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/pdf/loop_fact_sheet_and_map_may09.pdf) (warning PDF).

So got me to thinking, would something like this be possible in Green Bay? (Obviously at a much smaller scale) Personally I would prefer a more old time look like SF streetcars, it's more novel and would be a tourist attraction. Lines would run up and down Washington and Broadway and Main and it would have to be free. Ok, lets see if this works to get the talk off Shopko for a bit.
You might want to look way back to 12/19/2008 at post #2620 on this thread. I detailed a couple trolley loops that Danillo and I discussed as being reasonable for Green Bay.

Also, I think you're forgetting New Orleans' streetcar system.

IIRC, SEPTA (Philadelphia) also still operates some original streetcar lines.

Mike

Do we really need to ask why this city can not move forward? You have a Madison elitist calling Green Bay a "provincial backwater" in the press and then you have the mayor of that "provincial backwater" defending the bozo who made this statement. Good thing this mayor had all of his #4 parties to attend this week, kept him busy and not wasting time on city issues that way.

Do we really need to ask why this city can not move forward? You have a Madison elitist calling Green Bay a "provincial backwater" in the press and then you have the mayor of that "provincial backwater" defending the bozo who made this statement. Good thing this mayor had all of his #4 parties to attend this week, kept him busy and not wasting time on city issues that way.

Holy Cow. I agree... Mostly. Green Bay is backwards. I've lived here most of my life and it has been that way as long as I can remember. The City is not progressive, it could care less about improving its image, and elected officials spend way to much time and money on issues that they shouldn't even be discussing. There is so much oppurtunity, yet it has never been taken advantage of to the fullest.

Don't get me wrong. I live here, mostly I like living here, but it is sad to see this City with a lot going for it- piss it away at every chance.

Anyways. Go Packers. Go Rogers. Favre sucks.

Don't get me wrong, I love Green Bay, I grew up there; but, the way things have been going the last couple of years, calling it a "provincial backwater" is being generous. What the "Madison elitist" should have called it was a fading "provincial backwater."

So got me to thinking, would something like this be possible in Green Bay? (Obviously at a much smaller scale) Personally I would prefer a more old time look like SF streetcars, it's more novel and would be a tourist attraction. Lines would run up and down Washington and Broadway and Main and it would have to be free. Ok, lets see if this works to get the talk off Shopko for a bit.

At this very moment, I'm sitting in Portland looking out the window at the light rail tracks. I've been taking photos of things. I will have thoughts on this!

You might want to look way back to 12/19/2008 at post #2620 on this thread. I detailed a couple trolley loops that Danillo and I discussed as being reasonable for Green Bay.

Also, I think you're forgetting New Orleans' streetcar system.

Trollys, streetcars, come on guys you are talking about cities that have the need and the attractions for these type of systems. This is Green Bay, a 10x10 block downtown of bars, empty storefronts and a few businesses. It has nothing that attracts people down there, it offers nothing for tourist to vist there and it has zero potential at this time of generating interest to bring crowds into the downtown area. I mean the Meyer once had great potential but ever since PMI took over bookings they stop bringing in plays and have left us with a local group of people that put on shows that resemble community theater.

I would really like to see Green Bays downtown come alive again, but the vision that we have seen the past few years has been unrealistic and almost fantasy land. We don't need to have trolley routes or streetcars we need to have LIFE downtown again and that is a hard sell with BAY PARK and FOX VALLEY Malls providing the type of foot traffic stores downtowns need.

I know I will once again come across as the negative whiner but I don't see a major metro city like so many of you envision, I see a small town downtown that needs to be simpler and attractive. The boardwalk will provide one part of this, the childrens museum will help, but there needs to be more. Expand the conference center bring in more trade shows, destroy the mall, open the streets bring shops back downtown, forget about the 20+ story buildings, make Green Bay downtown alive like it was when I was a kid a long long time ago.

growing up I always wnated Green Bay to be a "city" with the tall buildings and architechture that goes with it, but as I age I see a dfferent reality for what this downtown is really going to be.

If anything gives Green Bay a backwater image, it's the local weekday talk show host on WTAQ-AM. It's really just a radio extension of the Guy Zima brand of politics . . . only worse. A daily dose of character assassination, slander, one-sided propaganda, outright lies, eviscerating any point of view other than the host's, and hyping and manufacturing anger. Welcome to Green Bay! A Warm Place to Be!

Below are articles on the latest controversy from the Press-Gazette and the Associated Press.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091030/GPG0101/910300595/-1/archive

host.madison.com/news/state-and-regional/wisconsin/article_7562d8a3-5db1-57b8-90cd-9b2fd6cfafe8.html

WTAQ suspends Green Bay radio personality Bader
Host apologizes for story speculating on Lawton motives

BY SCOTT WILLIAMS • SWILLIAMS@GREENBAYPRESSGAZETTE.COM • OCTOBER 30, 2009

Green Bay radio personality Jerry Bader's future on the air was in doubt Thursday after WTAQ (1360 AM) suspended him for a retracted story about Lt. Gov. Barbara Lawton's abrupt departure from the 2010 gubernatorial race.

"He might not be back on, and he might," station general manager Duke Wright said.

Bader was suspended for two weeks because of a story he posted online asserting that Lawton had dropped out of the governor's race because of trouble with her marriage. Lawton denied any such motive for quitting, and WTAQ later retracted the story.

On Thursday, Lawton called the suspension inadequate.

Lawton, whose family lived in Green Bay for many years, said she would leave it to WTAQ management to decide whether Bader should be taken off the air permanently.

But calling it an example of "irresponsible, inflammatory rhetoric," the lieutenant governor warned that Bader's style of commentary could give Green Bay a "provincial backwater" image.

"Is that the image you want of Green Bay to go forward?" she said.

On his blog, Bader offered an apology: "I wish to sincerely apologize to Lt. Gov. Barbara Lawton for previously posted Internet comments regarding her."

WTAQ said Bader was on vacation the rest of this week and that his suspension would begin Monday.

The station used syndicated material to replace him Thursday, but Wright said officials were working to find local programming to fill Bader's weekday morning time slot for two weeks.

The station manager also said officials would not decide Bader's fate until completing their review of how the Lawton story developed.

"He's always been very reliable," Wright said of Bader. "This is why we are very disappointed."

By SCOTT BAUER
Associated Press Writer

MADISON, Wis. (AP) - Conservative Green Bay radio talk show host Jerry Bader was suspended Thursday for two weeks over salacious comments he made speculating on why Lt. Gov. Barbara Lawton suddenly dropped out of the governor's race.

WTAQ-AM announced the suspension and said a decision about Bader's future would be made in two weeks.

In a two-minute podcast posted Monday afternoon on WTAQ's Web site, Bader made suggestive claims about Lawton's personal life that he said explained her departure from the race. He said he had confirmed the claims with multiple sources.

On Tuesday, Bader retracted the story with a message on the Web site that said: "I have lost confidence in the sources that provided information yesterday regarding Lt. Gov. Barbara Lawton. Therefore I cannot stand by the story posted yesterday."

Lawton, a Democrat from Green Bay, said that when one of her staff members called to complain, Bader told him he was retracting the story. She said she did not personally speak with Bader or anyone from station management and she did not consider his statement on the Web site an apology.

Lawton called Bader's suspension a "first step."

"Perhaps a step that should have preceded it is a proper apology and I think that the station ownership and the Green Bay community need to consider what the economic impact is to them to have someone on the air hour after hour, day after day spewing this kind of garbage," she said. "It brands the Green Bay area as a provincial backwater."

Station manager Duke Wright said Bader posted the podcast on his own without anyone else hearing it first.

"I think he should have had a better handle on his sources," Wright said. "What he said he shouldn't have said and he knows it."

Bader issued another statement on his blog Thursday saying he wanted to "sincerely apologize" to Lawton.

Lawton was the only prominent Democratic candidate for governor before dropping out of the race Monday citing "very personal reasons." She has refused to elaborate, but she has denied a bevy of rumors, including that she was ill, that her fundraising was lagging and that she was pushed out by the White House.

Lawton said Thursday she was not considering legal action against the station over Bader's claims.

"I want this story about me to go away and it's time for the Green Bay community to pick up the threads of this and decide how to restore a respectful image," she said. "It's at great expense to them that this happened. If I were an advertiser, I wouldn't get near to them. If I were a community leader, I would be calling them."

The station solicited listener feedback on the situation and Wright said more people are supportive of Bader returning to the air than against it.

Lawton's departure from the race leaves the Democratic Party with no major announced candidate, although Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett is still deciding.

Republicans running include Milwaukee County Executive Scott Walker and former U.S. Rep. Mark Neumann.

Hmmm. And here's one more because neither story actually spells out what she was referencing when she chose the tag "provincial backwater."

From Wisconsin Radio Network:

The Lt. Governor says journalists, or “would-be journalists,” need to be held accountable for their statements, which have a huge impact on their audience. And, she adds, residents need to be held accountable for how their community is perceived. Lawton says Bader’s comments brand Green Bay as a quote, “provincial backwater.”

“Because Mr. Bader has branded the Green Bay area with his inflammatory rhetoric and homophobia and racism as a provincial backwater. And the Chamber of Commerce and community leaders and the station ownership and people who advertise on that station ought to be greatly concerned about the economic impact that that has.”

He accused that she was having an extramarital same-sex affair and for that reason was dropping out of the race for governor. So her reference for the provincial backwater appellation was pretty specific.

But not politic for her public relations with Green Bay, I fear. And right now, checking with the New York Times, the phrase "provincial backwater" looms rather too large in Green Bay's PR on the world stage. But it looks like they're on it at City Hall with the flip-flops.

When a Lt Gov atacks a city in her own state it is a disgusting display of ignorance. Of course no one ever really accused Lawton of being real bright to start with. What Bader did was inexcusable and stupid what Lawton did was disgraceful. Bader owed Lawton an apology which she got, Green Bay is owed an apology for the damage the LT GOV has done. which it will never get from a Madison moonbat.

Was it really necessary to put a totally political slanted post filled with lies & personal opinions? I thought we agreed to keep this more of a non-politcal board! I could tell you what I think of you, but I'm going to keep it civil.
If you want to turn this back into a political back & forth thing, let me know, I'll join in.

Thanks.

Funny. 1.) All Tower Park did was contextualize things that Gbmphillips had alluded to for those of us who had no idea. 2.) You're someone who has often politicized this discussion.

I didn’t even know AM radio was still around- that’s just straight up crazy- I think that AM and backwater go together, so what, I think that the lack of education in this region contributes to all the stereotypes that us green bayites face. I think we are probably the only market to have a pro sports team and not have HD radio. I like the part where they polled the listeners and none objected.:lol:

Go Pack

Funny. 1.) All Tower Park did was contextualize things that Gbmphillips had alluded to for those of us who had no idea. 2.) You're someone who has often politicized this discussion.

Your right, I actually didn't see his post until going back. While I have a ton more in common with GBMPhilipls (or Jerry Bader for that matter), I would also say to him the same thing. Keep it more about development related topics. Unless the group wants to keep straying of course. Jerry Bader has done at ton of good things for various parts of the community. If you're offended by the truth, then don't listen to him. You can change the dial.

Lawton did not say that Green Bay was a "provincial backwater." She said that "Bader's style of commentary could give Green Bay a 'provincial backwater' image." I agree with her. It is something we all should be concerned about, not that many people listen to Bader anyway. I never even heard of the guy until now. It doesn't sound like he is someone who can discuss ideas without getting into personal attacks.

I think that marseilles' recent comments about the Shopko Express were very perceptive. I think that the store did have a very unwelcoming and bunker-link design that did send a message to neighbors that this store is not for you.

bike on!

I never even heard of the guy until now. It doesn't sound like he is someone who can discuss ideas without getting into personal attacks.


bike on!


Maybe between joints you can educate yourself a little.

http://feeds.museumpods.com/BaderShow.xml

At least listen to the guy, then if you want to throw him under the bus, have at it. The guy is a opinion talk show. He's not a politician. It's not like he called her a "whore". Oh that's right, that's acceptable if you're a elected democrat. Jerry trusted a reliable source he has received info from in the past & posted it in his blog. He shouldn't have, he admitted he was wrong & is taking his lumps. The double standard is ridiculous.

Was it really necessary to put a totally political slanted post filled with lies & personal opinions? I thought we agreed to keep this more of a non-politcal board! I could tell you what I think of you, but I'm going to keep it civil.
If you want to turn this back into a political back & forth thing, let me know, I'll join in.

Thanks.

I thought twice before posting the news articles from the Press-Gazette and the Associated Press. But another poster here brought the matter up of someone saying Green Bay was in danger of being labeled a "provincial backwater." The news articles set the background. I added a paragraph of my own comment. And you're right, marseilles, the story has even made the New York Times.

This theme of Green Bay being backward is one you hear from time to time (frequently?), from locals and outsiders as well. It would make for an interesting story why that perception is there. Off the top of my head, I think it has to do in part with the political leadership in town over the years. Guy Zima. Nativity scenes. Nasty homeless-shelter debates. Demolishing half the downtown for urban renewal and then having the devastated blocks sit empty for years while the next step is planned (they called it Green Bay's downtown golf course back then). What's now an empty downtown shopping mall. Roundabouts. Seventeen-story condos that are announced with great fanfare but never materialize. Taking a decade, if not longer, to build a new county jail. An endless debate about the county mental health center (that only recently was resolved). The mess of the Younkers lawsuit and $700,000 in legal fees. Cat fights at City Council and County Board meetings. I'm sure I'm missing things. In some quarters, fairly or not, Green Bay's a laughing stock - for these and other reasons. As a Green Bay boy, I feel sad about that.

I agree that Lt. Gov. Lawton went too far in her remarks, as suggestive as they were. As for gbmphillips, who's attacking Green Bay here? You just got done posting that Green Bay's downtown is nothing but "bars, empty storefronts and a few businesses. It has nothing that attracts people down there, it offers nothing for tourists to vist there and it has zero potential at this time of generating interest to bring crowds into the downtown area." That's inaccurate and an exaggeration. But I wouldn't go so far as to call it "a disgusting display of ignorance."

Man, I go out of town and look at what happens...

:nuts:

Railways in the UK were all organized the same way until they were swept up by the early post-WWII Labour government's drive to nationalize pretty much everything in the country (creating state-owned 'British Railways') and were generally reorganized on that ideal during their de-nationalization by the Tories in the 1990s. Local Brits will have more info on how they are now run.

I just yesterday was listening to POTUS in my rental car (first time I'd ever tuned into that) and a British fellow referenced this exact situation in a discussion about what things government should do and what it shouldn't do. His opinion was that the widespread privatizing started under Thatcher worked well in most cases, with the exception being the railroads. The service has declined and most Brits would prefer the old system back, but that it was too late for that. So said this one guy who seemed generally intelligent. (EDIT: the guy in question is Llewellyn King: http://www.whchronicle.com)

The City is not progressive, it could care less about improving its image, and elected officials spend way to much time and money on issues that they shouldn't even be discussing.

I really couldn't care less about improving Green Bay's image. I'm much more concerned about actually improving Green Bay. More to follow...

Off the top of my head, I think it has to do in part with the political leadership in town over the years. Guy Zima. Nativity scenes. Nasty homeless-shelter debates. Demolishing half the downtown for urban renewal and then having the devastated blocks sit empty for years while the next step is planned (they called it Green Bay's downtown golf course back then). What's now an empty downtown shopping mall. Roundabouts. Seventeen-story condos that are announced with great fanfare but never materialize. Taking a decade, if not longer, to build a new county jail. An endless debate about the county mental health center (that only recently was resolved). The mess of the Younkers lawsuit and $700,000 in legal fees. Cat fights at City Council and County Board meetings. I'm sure I'm missing things. In some quarters, fairly or not, Green Bay's a laughing stock - for these and other reasons. As a Green Bay boy, I feel sad about that.

I think some of these things are not like the others. For instance, the mall failed, but it wasn't reactionary or something. Building the mall was a response to real problems. The larger issues was the doing nothing after the mall was built. Other things, like Astor Place not being built, are things that happen in every city.

Beyond that, I do think we (me too) focus too much on how Green Bay is perceived, and it's easy to overreact to Green Bay's flaws because we live with them. 99.9999% of American's outside of NE WI have never heard of Guy Zima. Very few people will ever hear of the Lawton/Bader feud. Most people who visit downtown Green Bay aren't going to see the Cherry St. ramp and think "gee, I wonder if a ramp is the highest and best use of that land." We (myself included) fixate on this stuff because we're so immersed in it. To the degree people outside of NE WI thing of Green Bay as a backwater, it's because they think of ALL places like GB as a backwater. There are huge numbers of people on the coasts who think that places like Minneapolis are backwaters. Who cares.

That's why I don't get very excited when people talk about improving downtown and how great it will look on Monday Night Football. Yippee-skippy. I'm much more interested in improving our own self-image and making places we want to be.

"Al's Hamburgers" in downtown Green Bay is featured in today's New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/31/sports/football/31favre.html?_r=1). Leave it to Al's to help lead us out of our national perception as a 'provincial backwater'.

Oh crap, I just admitted to reading the New York Times...I can feel your assumptions on my political views being heaped upon me....Quick! put Fox News back on so I can keep myself "fair and balanced!". Aaah, that's better...more Obama bashing. Come to think if it, it's all Barack's fault that Green Bay's downtown is all screwed up, you know. I'll get some Fox reporters on it right away.

Well anyway, good for Al's!

I think some of these things are not like the others. For instance, the mall failed, but it wasn't reactionary or something. Building the mall was a response to real problems. The larger issues was the doing nothing after the mall was built. Other things, like Astor Place not being built, are things that happen in every city.

Beyond that, I do think we (me too) focus too much on how Green Bay is perceived, and it's easy to overreact to Green Bay's flaws because we live with them. 99.9999% of American's outside of NE WI have never heard of Guy Zima. Very few people will ever hear of the Lawton/Bader feud. Most people who visit downtown Green Bay aren't going to see the Cherry St. ramp and think "gee, I wonder if a ramp is the highest and best use of that land." We (myself included) fixate on this stuff because we're so immersed in it. To the degree people outside of NE WI thing of Green Bay as a backwater, it's because they think of ALL places like GB as a backwater. There are huge numbers of people on the coasts who think that places like Minneapolis are backwaters. Who cares.

That's why I don't get very excited when people talk about improving downtown and how great it will look on Monday Night Football. Yippee-skippy. I'm much more interested in improving our own self-image and making places we want to be.

Good points, Danillo. I'm not even sure of my own theory here . . . some rough thoughts. I just know there are a fair number of people in the city, in the state and elsewhere who think that way about Green Bay. Maybe that's just the way it is. Maybe that's true for all cities all around the country. Personally, I don't think Green Bay's a great city, but neither do I think it (or its downtown) is a dump. It's probably floating around somewhere in the middle, trying in its own way and own struggles to be better. I'll stop pontificating on the subject. . . . By the way — before I head out — I hear there's another downtown scoop brewing on this forum. But it's weeks away from appearing in print. It's a matter, I hear, of getting sources on the record. It's big.

I've never heard of any particular reason why NFL teams stay at the Radisson Paper Valley Hotel in Appleton. Is this for security reasons because rabid Packer fans may harass? Or is it because there is not a four star hotel in Green Bay?
A few years ago I heard some Fox commentators talking about all the tradition at Lambeau etc., then said the only draw back to visiting Green Bay is the commute from the hotel in Milwaukee. That would tell me Green Bay doesn't have one hotel to meet the high standards demanded by the networks. Perhaps this has changed recently. There are plans to remodel what once was the Northland, but don't expect it within ten years the way development goes in Green Bay. How does Guy Zima stand on this issue btw?

I've never heard of any particular reason why NFL teams stay at the Radisson Paper Valley Hotel in Appleton. Is this for security reasons because rabid Packer fans may harass? Or is it because there is not a four star hotel in Green Bay?
A few years ago I heard some Fox commentators talking about all the tradition at Lambeau etc., then said the only draw back to visiting Green Bay is the commute from the hotel in Milwaukee. That would tell me Green Bay doesn't have one hotel to meet the high standards demanded by the networks. Perhaps this has changed recently. There are plans to remodel what once was the Northland, but don't expect it within ten years the way development goes in Green Bay. How does Guy Zima stand on this issue btw?
Most visiting teams have stayed at the Paper Valley Hotel in Appleton since it opened in 1982. Most network sports guys have stayed there, too, and, for example, the Madden/Outback Cruiser bus was frequently seen parked behind it on game weekends when John Madden was the network TV guy.

The teams like the layout of the hotel and its top-level service and amenities. It is also in a nice urban (but not too urban) setting with places to go and things to do (but not too many) within a few blocks' walk. The locals are friendly, too, and generally leave the coaches and players alone when they go to those nearby bars and restaurants, many of which are VERY GOOD.

See:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=44.261829,-88.411918&spn=0,359.972405&z=15&layer=c&cbll=44.261819,-88.412075&panoid=yu96QU6pBm99g3lXIAItmQ&cbp=12,95.36,,0,-3.82
for its setting. It is a 400 or so room hotel with three separate sections of rooms, the teams usually get the seven-story tower (the tall building on the right). It is easy to secure yet offers great in-out access - the rooms are only steps from the street.

Mike

Oh crap, I just admitted to reading the New York Times...I can feel your assumptions on my political views being heaped upon me....Quick! put Fox News back on so I can keep myself "fair and balanced!". Aaah, that's better...more Obama bashing. Come to think if it, it's all Barack's fault that Green Bay's downtown is all screwed up, you know. I'll get some Fox reporters on it right away.


It's funny how when just one TV media organization doesn't follow lockstep with the state run media, you complain. Just don't watch it! I know most of the media gets "shivers up their spines" when they see the supreme leader. You got ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN ..... & so on. Some of them still might be unaware of the ACORN scandal, maybe you can let them know.

I've never heard of any particular reason why NFL teams stay at the Radisson Paper Valley Hotel in Appleton. Is this for security reasons because rabid Packer fans may harass? Or is it because there is not a four star hotel in Green Bay?
A few years ago I heard some Fox commentators talking about all the tradition at Lambeau etc., then said the only draw back to visiting Green Bay is the commute from the hotel in Milwaukee. That would tell me Green Bay doesn't have one hotel to meet the high standards demanded by the networks. Perhaps this has changed recently. There are plans to remodel what once was the Northland, but don't expect it within ten years the way development goes in Green Bay. How does Guy Zima stand on this issue btw?

I would think that the Radisson by the ariport would be up to NFL team standards but perhaps the casino (and negativities associated with gambling) keeps NFL teams from wanting to stay there.

Plus keep in mind, when organizations book a block of rooms they look at pricing and where they'll get the best value for their dollars. These teams also need good fitness facilities, meeting space, and hotel catering that can meet their needs over their stay. The NFL teams market is one that the Paper Valley Hotel has nurtured for several years now and they have developed a good relationship with the NFL team market.

I would think that the Radisson by the ariport would be up to NFL team standards but perhaps the casino (and negativities associated with gambling) keeps NFL teams from wanting to stay there.

Plus keep in mind, when organizations book a block of rooms they look at pricing and where they'll get the best value for their dollars. These teams also need good fitness facilities, meeting space, and hotel catering that can meet their needs over their stay. The NFL teams market is one that the Paper Valley Hotel has nurtured for several years now and they have developed a good relationship with the NFL team market.

The reason they don't stay at the Radisson is there is another team already on the secured floors there and all the meeting rooms in the smaller conference/ballrooms are used for that team... hint... the PACKERS... :)

Not sure why they do not stay at either the Hotel Sierra or the Holiday Inn City Center - both of which feature "secured" floors - that is where most of the headliners from the Weidner stayed when it still brought in bigger names or the top cast from Musicals (unless, like the Phantom guy who always stayed at the B&B in Algoma, they made their own arrangements)... either of these are similar in amenities and meeting space to the Paper Valley. My guess it they like being a town away... for added "security" - though as others have noted downtown Appleton has been a gracious host and there have been few "rabid fan" problems. (I think the Packers are responsible for arranging the hotels for the out of town teams - again another reason to keep them a little bit away)

The lower cast members and crew usually we booked into the Days Inn Downtown across the street. :)

Dmskultz, I didn't know that the Pack stayed at the Raddison game weekends. I guess that is a pretty good reason out of town teams don't stay there! :cheers:

I've never heard of any particular reason why NFL teams stay at the Radisson Paper Valley Hotel in Appleton. Is this for security reasons because rabid Packer fans may harass? Or is it because there is not a four star hotel in Green Bay?
A few years ago I heard some Fox commentators talking about all the tradition at Lambeau etc., then said the only draw back to visiting Green Bay is the commute from the hotel in Milwaukee. That would tell me Green Bay doesn't have one hotel to meet the high standards demanded by the networks. Perhaps this has changed recently. There are plans to remodel what once was the Northland, but don't expect it within ten years the way development goes in Green Bay. How does Guy Zima stand on this issue btw?

I think it has to do, at least in part, with John Bergstrom being on the Packers' board of directors and its executive committee. He's Wisconsin's largest car dealer and, I believe, owns or built the Appleton Radisson. He's also sunk millions into downtown Neenah, building at least three high-rise office buildings there.

Green Bay has hotels, I think, visiting teams could stay at: the Radisson Hotel & Conference Center across from the airport and the Hotel Sierra downtown come to mind. Staying in Appleton might also have to do with getting away from the pregame hubbub in Green Bay. I recall reading years ago that local hotels almost prefer that visiting teams not stay here. Don't know if this is true, but they said they make more money off the general public than when teams stay in their places. Years ago Mike Holmgren had the Packers stay at the airport Radisson the night before home games. I don't know that they still do that.

The mayor's moving along on the Hotel Northland project. Some developments on that front just a week or two ago. No opposition has surfaced to the project, which, seems to me, would be terrific for the downtown.

Fox's "Favre Cam" (http://msn.foxsports.com/favre_cam?icampaign=favre_cam#_blank) is great! Really! If the game is over, this probably won't work.

GO YOU PACKERS GO!

As for hotels...What about Aloft? Could that house the opposing team?

...Also, again, what 'small town' this size gets this kind of publicity? Are we maximizing this?

I think it has to do, at least in part, with John Bergstrom being on the Packers' board of directors and its executive committee. He's Wisconsin's largest car dealer and, I believe, owns or built the Appleton Radisson. He's also sunk millions into downtown Neenah, building at least three high-rise office buildings there.

Green Bay has hotels, I think, visiting teams could stay at: the Radisson Hotel & Conference Center across from the airport and the Hotel Sierra downtown come to mind. Staying in Appleton might also have to do with getting away from the pregame hubbub in Green Bay. I recall reading years ago that local hotels almost prefer that visiting teams not stay here. Don't know if this is true, but they said they make more money off the general public than when teams stay in their places. Years ago Mike Holmgren had the Packers stay at the airport Radisson the night before home games. I don't know that they still do that.
A few years ago, there was a scheduling boo-boo where the Paper Valley Hotel had informed the NFL of its open weekends (like all of the visiting-team hotels throughout the league do) and the NFL scheduled a game at Green Bay on a weekend when the hotel was already booked with a convention anyways.

Thus, that weekend the Dallas Cowboys ended up staying at...

...the Holiday Inn at I-43 and US 151 in Manitowoc, WI.

Also, due to the tight, short-notice scheduling that usually comes with playoffs and the holiday season, other teams have also ended up having to stay at the Manitowoc Holiday Inn in the post-season (several did in the late 1990s).

Mike

i take it that nothing is going on with WaterMark? anyone know of anything other possible developments? Meyer Theater expansion? Commercial development below cherry street ramp?

i take it that nothing is going on with WaterMark? anyone know of anything other possible developments? Meyer Theater expansion? Commercial development below cherry street ramp?

Heard the mayor said the other day the city has applied for stimulus funding to tear down the Port Plaza Mall site. People on this board speculated months ago the city perhaps might do that. But I can't recall if it was ever confirmed.

i thought stimulus for demolition was denied?

i thought stimulus for demolition was denied?

Here's a media source on that from last week. "The city is seeking federal stimulus dollars to demolish the old Washington Commons -- a project expected to cost upwards of $3 million."

www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?s=11395485&clienttype=printable

i take it that nothing is going on with WaterMark? anyone know of anything other possible developments? Meyer Theater expansion? Commercial development below cherry street ramp?
I think that the city was going to take the Aaron Rodgers sign down today, that's the big news.:lol:

It blows my mind how difficult it is to start a damn project downtown. There are buildings popping up all over the metro so the financing must be there. There seems to be no institutions committed to sustainable development. I guess we can simply pave our way to poverty.

I am not sure on the status on any of the Stimulus projects. Here is a link (http://www.stimuluswatch.org/project/by_city/Green%20Bay/WI) to the submitted projects.

Anyone know where you can get any additional info?

It looks like Hansen's Dairy & Deli is going under. All but one store are not gone. When I first moved to Green Bay Hansen had several more stores and looked to be doing well.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091102/GPG03/91102150/1247/Hansen-s-Dairy-&-Deli-closes-two-of-three-stores

It looks like Hansen's Dairy & Deli is going under. All but one store are not gone. When I first moved to Green Bay Hansen had several more stores and looked to be doing well.



Also, longtime business of 20+ years, A-1 Vacuum on Main Street, is moving to Ashwaubenon.

It looks like Hansen's Dairy & Deli is going under. All but one store are not gone. When I first moved to Green Bay Hansen had several more stores and looked to be doing well.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091102/GPG03/91102150/1247/Hansen-s-Dairy-&-Deli-closes-two-of-three-stores

That's sad. They kept the best store open though. When I was a little kid in the early '70s I lived just down the street on Garland Ave. I remember when there was a service station there along with two others at that intersection. Then the station closed and Hansen's did a little remodeling and moved in. It brings back a lot of summer memories going up there and getting an ice cream cone. I love that neighborhood, lots of nice older homes, and quiet. If we were playing and we heard a train whistle when it crossed Bellevue St we'd run over to throw rocks at it when it came past us. No video games then, just rocks.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde-39.jpg

Sonic opens East Side. Also plans for Ashwaubenon. Press-Gazette photo.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009911030520

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde-39.jpg

Sonic opens East Side. Also plans for Ashwaubenon. Press-Gazette photo.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009911030520

Another chain coming in to sweep away a local (Fon du Lac), family run drive-up. Here's to Gilly's, or Gilles for those of you in the Fon du Lac area.

http://www.gillysfrozencustard.com/

^^ yeah sonic isnt that great...personally im going to keep puting my money in wisconsin businesses such as culvers, cousins, shopko, leinenkugel, miller, kohls and others.

The Press-Gazette first reported on this a week or two ago. Here's an update. Some County Board members, including Guy Zima, are looking at the possibility of privatizing the county's Planning Department.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091103/GPG0101/911030535/1207/GPG01

OK well I have one comment: I have a different thought on this. I disagree. "Historically", Green Bay is where it is because of water transportation (the Bay and the Fox River). That's where the city started, and later on the railroad integrated with the port to really make this city a transportation hub. Rail did influence the design o a lot of the history and design of this city. The city had trolleys that ran around town and even an interurban trolley that at one point allowed a person to ride streetcar from Green Bay almost all the way to the east coast. The design of the older parts of the city also largely accomodated walkers (which used to be a "given"). In any case, the "core" of the city was built around transportation that is NOT "car-oriented". Now granted, since WWII almost everything became car-oriented and even the inner core was gutted to insert cars. There's where a lot of shit went downhill, IMO. LIke so many things, Americans took a technology (cars) and went way too far with it to the point of overuse and abuse.

been meaning to reply to this for a couple days. I'm defining "historically" as "as long as I can remember". I'm in my mid-30's, so as long as I can remember, no one walks anywhere, buses have been inconvenient, and no one has done anything without a car. I agree with you that in the much more historical "historically", you're right. Unfortunately, that's much too historical for me to remember. historically speaking, of course..

That's sad. They kept the best store open though. When I was a little kid in the early '70s I lived just down the street on Garland Ave. I remember when there was a service station there along with two others at that intersection. Then the station closed and Hansen's did a little remodeling and moved in. It brings back a lot of summer memories going up there and getting an ice cream cone. I love that neighborhood, lots of nice older homes, and quiet. If we were playing and we heard a train whistle when it crossed Bellevue St we'd run over to throw rocks at it when it came past us. No video games then, just rocks.

Honestly, I'm not all that surprised. I just moved, but used to live about 1 1/2 blocks from the Gray St. Hansens. It used be very good, years ago. The chain was sold & the quality went way down. The food was overpriced and not that good anymore. Just recently, they stopped selling Hansen's ice cream & started selling a different brand. How can Hansen's Dairy store not sell Hansen's ice cream? It's like going to Burger King to get a Big Mac. I don't know if that was all of the stores or only "ours", but it seemed like the kiss of death.

Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% in favor of suporting local businesses like this, and I have for years, but the quality seemed to have gone down so much that it seemed like only a matter of time before this happened.

I thought this was very timely, based on our recent discussions. Maybe "The Oracle" is a SSC reader too?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Buffetts-big-bet-34B-on-apf-3016566039.html?x=0

Also, longtime business of 20+ years, A-1 Vacuum on Main Street, is moving to Ashwaubenon.

Wasn't A-1 the only business left in that building on Main St.? My guess is that it will probably get razed and the lot added to the vacant lot next to it where the old Copp's store was.

Wasn't there some news about a year ago that there was a developer interested in that vacant site?

Wasn't A-1 the only business left in that building on Main St.? My guess is that it will probably get razed and the lot added to the vacant lot next to it where the old Copp's store was.

Wasn't there some news about a year ago that there was a developer interested in that vacant site?

I thought there was a restaurant or coffee type shop that was opened, but then again, it probably opened then closed. The bagel placed closed a while back. There is a bar, turtles 2, behind A-1. I think it's a attached building. Guy at A-1 said they were sick of renting with no improvements being made to the building. Clients of turtles would leave garbage, illegal drug remnants & condoms all over the lot. It would be best for the place to be bulldozed. I thought the same thing as you, that it would get redeveloped.
The new place will be on Oneida street across from McDonald's.

Wasn't A-1 the only business left in that building on Main St.? My guess is that it will probably get razed and the lot added to the vacant lot next to it where the old Copp's store was.

Wasn't there some news about a year ago that there was a developer interested in that vacant site?

If that is where I'm thinking (next to the old Taco Bell, in the building that used to house Sue Ann's Bagel's), I think a new restaurant just opened in that building recently - a "southern food" restaurant. My parents went there recently & said it was good.

Was it really necessary to put a totally political slanted post filled with lies & personal opinions? I thought we agreed to keep this more of a non-politcal board! I could tell you what I think of you, but I'm going to keep it civil.
If you want to turn this back into a political back & forth thing, let me know, I'll join in.

Thanks.

:lol::banana::lol::banana::lol::cheers::lol::cheers::lol:

^^ yeah sonic isnt that great...personally im going to keep puting my money in wisconsin businesses such as culvers, cousins, shopko, leinenkugel, miller, kohls and others.

YEAH who cares they employee local people we all know the evil chains are bad for local business. Of wait isn't Miller owned by a South Africa Company oh who cares they have state workers unlike Sonic who hire......oh wait ......

:ohno::bash:^^:banana::lol::cheers::cheers::nuts::):bash::banana::cheers::):wallbash::horse::pet::pet::hilarious:shocked::hm::devil::hahano::(:nocrook::yes::crazy2::speech::rant::kiss::okay::uh::bowtie::uh::bowtie::storm::puke::carrot:

This board is awesome!

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/l__alpena_tug_assistance.jpg

Port report for 2009.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091104/GPG03/911040671/-1/archive

It's interesting to me that this board gets into a chains vs. locally-owned "debate" once in awhile. One benefit of a locally owned independent business is that the money spent there gets returned to the community. I can't remember what the exact split is but on average, if a dollar is spent at a national chain, something like 80 cents of that dollar leaves the community and goes to the corporate offices. If a dollar is spent at a locally owned small business, 80 cents of that dollar stays in the local community. Chains suck.

"no one walks anywhere"
whadda ya' mean???????
I walk or bike to work almost everyday and go weeks without starting my car. It's awesome!!!!!

I think it's strange that this board tends to get politically argumentative once in awhile. A healthy downtown and sustainable development benefit all of us, conservative or liberal, downtown resident or suburbanite.

If you have not listened to the KunstlerCast recently you have missed some great recent episodes. In the last two about New York City he discusses many things that could apply to NE Wisconsin and Green Bay. Like me, he is definitely not a fan of the "skyscraper."

walk on!

It's interesting to me that this board gets into a chains vs. locally-owned "debate" once in awhile. One benefit of a locally owned independent business is that the money spent there gets returned to the community. I can't remember what the exact split is but on average, if a dollar is spent at a national chain, something like 80 cents of that dollar leaves the community and goes to the corporate offices. If a dollar is spent at a locally owned small business, 80 cents of that dollar stays in the local community. Chains suck.

"no one walks anywhere"
whadda ya' mean???????
I walk or bike to work almost everyday and go weeks without starting my car. It's awesome!!!!!

I think it's strange that this board tends to get politically argumentative once in awhile. A healthy downtown and sustainable development benefit all of us, conservative or liberal, downtown resident or suburbanite.

If you have not listened to the KunstlerCast recently you have missed some great recent episodes. In the last two about New York City he discusses many things that could apply to NE Wisconsin and Green Bay. Like me, he is definitely not a fan of the "skyscraper."

walk on!

^^

Everyone from every city, in every state in the US, has different views on this idea of "local chains," because what may be "local" to them, to every community around them, it may either be "regional" or "national" to outsiders. Burger King gives back to Miami, Florida, because that's where they are from, despite our area having a local franchise of BKC, called Valley King, Inc. Walmart gives back to Bentonville, Arkansas, because that's where this union-hating discount retailer is from, whether you like it or not. We have ShopKo, one of the few regional discount chains left in existence (and Green Bay's very own homegrown Target-like retailer), here in Green Bay, Wisconsin, they, of course, give back to our community in many ways. No matter where your from, the big corporation headquartered in your city, will generate lots of money for your community.

gbmphillips - last time i checked the restaurants and stores I mentioned the employees uhh, work there....my patronage helps keep them working there. And Miller, the brewery is still in Milwaukee, the brewery is where people work to brew beer, you know, Milwaukee, Wisconsin??? sure some money goes overseas...OHH WAIT, money trumps everything in your mind right? Well nevermind, forget about the employees at the Miller Brewery in Milwaukee.

The developers of the strip mall where Best Buy is located are going to expand into the unused space where the car dealership once was. I am kind of surprised as the considering that the old Circuit City space is available and in general it not being a great time for retail. Thoughts?

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091104/GPG03/91104063/1247/Ashwaubenon-Planning-Board-approves-shopping-center-addition

Here is an interesting story from the PG regarding Vicenzi's. It looks like Guy Zima and Andy Nicholson feel the club should remain open and that complaints regarding the amount of police resources used by Vicenzi's amount to a 'witch hunt'.

The Protection & Welfare Committee needs to hold a hearing on the matter and it sounds like Nicholson is not trying to hard to get it done and he does not agree with the council revoking Vicenzi's

Zima believes that city hall and the police department is working against Vicenzi's. I personally find it hard to belive that city hall and the police department would make stuff up to get rid of a local business.

What do you guys think?

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091104/GPG0101/911040679/1207/GPG01

I'll go on record saying I don't personally have a problem with "chain" restaurants in general. There are some that I like and I quite frequently visit. Subway for instance. I like the downtown Subway...They took one of the cooler old buildings and renovated it quite nicely. Also the Washington St subway had an article posted in there that talks about how much of their "product" for many of their nationwide stores is actually manufactured right here in the Green Bay area...everything from food stuff to packaging and so on. Now, in my mind chain stores like this fill a niche--for people needing to get some food in a hurry for example---but I think the "mom & pop" places fill another niche, for example when looking for good food plus good atmosphere. I think there is room for both. Some chains bother the hell out of me, yeah..but so then I just avoid them and I guess that's how it's supposed to work...to each his/her own.

On another note, I do have to second Eddyout's comment that a healthy downtown is good for the whole community, political persuasions aside. Here we have this forum were we're all interested generally in the same thing, a vibrant city and I think in particular a better downtown. We can put our differences aside and come together on that. Inevitably we sometimes wander into political ideology (I know I'm guilty of that too) and perhaps that's unavoidable, but let's remember that we all regularly read this forum essentially because we have similar interests and hopes. :grouphug: Cheesy?

What do you guys think?

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091104/GPG0101/911040679/1207/GPG01

In the past I had a small amount of admiration for Zima. As far as having someone who will stand up for their beliefs & not just be a mindless zombie doing whatever they are told to do. But his behavior & statements in city hall chambers lately go way beyond (in my opinion) what is acceptable. I lost all respect for him.

As far as it relates to Vincenz's, I really think it goes deeper then a bar causing problems. I think it ties to the Vander LEEST arrest & his lawsuit against the city. Vanderleest hangs out (or at least he used to) at Vicenz's & I think is friends with the owner. So the two of them have taken it personal... to fight "evil powers" that are trying to shut them down. Vanderleest has a few buddies on his side at city council who have championed the cause and they can stonewall the actions against the bar. Why can't they just hold the hearings & listen to the facts. But I really think if they could find the mass graves of green bay residents burried in the freezer in Vicenzi's...Zima & Vanderbeast would accuse the dead people of being "shill" and vote to keep the bar opened. This is just my personal opinion, I could be way off & probably am.

As far as it relates to Vincenz's, I really think it goes deeper then a bar causing problems. I think it ties to the Vander LEEST arrest & his lawsuit against the city. Vanderleest hangs out (or at least he used to) at Vicenz's & I think is friends with the owner. So the two of them have taken it personal... to fight "evil powers" that are trying to shut them down. Vanderleest has a few buddies on his side at city council who have championed the cause and they can stonewall the actions against the bar. Why can't they just hold the hearings & listen to the facts. But I really think if they could find the mass graves of green bay residents burried in the freezer in Vicenzi's...Zima & Vanderbeast would accuse the dead people of being "shill" and vote to keep the bar opened. This is just my personal opinion, I could be way off & probably am.

Interesting background on Vicenzi's. The Press-Gazette is having an on-line chat today and says one of the topics that could be discussed is "the shouting match at Tuesday's Green Bay City Council meeting." I'm assuming the shouting had to do with the Vicenzi's issue??

****************************************************************

The Executive Committee of the Brown County Board voted 5-2 yesterday to continue exploring the possibility of privatizing the county Planning Department. Guy Zima is the County Board chair, so I'm assuming the Executive Committee can reflect his thoughts (at least on this issue). The proposed privatization would be a big change in how the county goes about its business. I wonder if Brown County is the first county in the state to discuss this. Seems to me potentially this could become another of those big and nasty local political fights we see in Green Bay all too often. Hopefully not.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091105/GPG0101/911050668/1978/Brown-County-panel-votes-to-look-at-privatization-of-planning-department

****************************************************************

The developers of the strip mall where Best Buy is located are going to expand into the unused space where the car dealership once was. I am kind of surprised as the considering that the old Circuit City space is available and in general it not being a great time for retail. Thoughts?

If I'm not mistaken, I recall reading once that the intersection of Oneida and Pilgrim in Ashwaubenon has just about the highest — if not the highest — value of any retail commercial property in Brown County. So it would not seem surprising that developers would want to continue extending the Best Buy/Bed Bath & Beyond/PetSmart/Dick's Sporting Goods big-box commercial strip eastward. The GDP was up in the third quarter, and retail sales are projected to begin increasing again next year.

What do you guys think?

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091104/GPG0101/911040679/1207/GPG01

My gripe is that the owner, Solberg, never opened the business that he presented in his business plan. A plan that was approved by the council in order to get a liquor license. His original plan was to open a restaurant/jazz club. For whatever reason, that didn't happen. Instead, he opened a Hip hop/R&B place. That lost him some credibility right there from the beginning. Maybe he should change his format to the one he outlined in his plan.

As for the rowdies in the parking lot, they may be from his place or any of the others on that block. No way to tell unless the police are asking them where they were last. But that doesn't matter because if there was a ruckus in any of the bars and security got them outside, then they did their job and it's a matter for police. I looked at the police calls on the City's website and most of the calls for disturbances are at bar closing when there's drunks from all the bars. Maybe there's just too many bars in that area.

The developers of the strip mall where Best Buy is located are going to expand into the unused space where the car dealership once was. I am kind of surprised as the considering that the old Circuit City space is available and in general it not being a great time for retail. Thoughts?

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091104/GPG03/91104063/1247/Ashwaubenon-Planning-Board-approves-shopping-center-addition

I believe they have space for the addition on their current lot and will not be expanding onto the old Van Driesse Lot at this time. That was once rumored as the new spot for Toys R Us. I think it is good. The strip mall where Circuit City once was is terrible to navigate. Their parking lot sucks - so access is key. Plus it is a free market. If they have the money, I guess more power to em.

You bring up a good point about Toys R Us. I am very surprised that that store has not either moved our closed. Every time I go in there there seems to be only a few people shopping. If they do move, that would mean two big box stores sitting empty on West Mason/Military in addition to the old Circuit City on Mason.

Sometimes it seems so strange When I first moved here that area along with downtown was the hot retail spots and Ashwaubenon was kind of boring. My how things have changed in 10 or so years.

I believe they have space for the addition on their current lot and will not be expanding onto the old Van Driesse Lot at this time. That was once rumored as the new spot for Toys R Us. I think it is good. The strip mall where Circuit City once was is terrible to navigate. Their parking lot sucks - so access is key. Plus it is a free market. If they have the money, I guess more power to em.

Blizzard joins the smaller-market IFL instead of the Arena Football 1 league. That'll have some fans upset. Just guessing, but maybe the team just couldn't afford the bigger league.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091105/GPG0211/91105044/1978/Arena-football--Blizzard-joins-the-IFL

I can't remember what the exact split is but on average, if a dollar is spent at a national chain, something like 80 cents of that dollar leaves the community and goes to the corporate offices. If a dollar is spent at a locally owned small business, 80 cents of that dollar stays in the local community. Chains suck.



Does the 80% figure sound right? I can't imagine having a business & of all the money coming in, only 20% goes toward local expenses & salaries. Then being able to keep the 80 as profit or to pay the big wigs that work out of town. Not picking you apart, but if that's accurate, that's a huge percentage.

Don't you pay an initial fee (usually pretty big) to buy into a franchise after the corporate offices approve a location and then agree to update the look or maintain corporate standards but the money stays at the location. Those numbers seem off to me as well. Who would ever want to take that leap into chains if that is the case?

Seems odd that some of those sticking up for Vicenzi's are the same as those who were against 5-6. At any rate, 5-6 closed and Vicenzi's opened, if Vicenzi's closes then something else will pop up to take it's place. The biggest issue I have with both is the degree to which their places ended up being totally different than they said they were going to be, but then again I have some difficulty blaming a business owner for following the money.

Regarding the chains/franchises issue, franchises require an up front franchise fee to open the business, and then a percentage of sales on an ongoing basis, but I have no idea where this 80% figure comes from. I am chain neutral. I love McDonald's, their food is precessed and terrible, and I love to eat it. It's delicious. I like Whopper's too, and roast beef from Arby's, and just about everything on the Taco Bell menu. It's wonderful. When I travel I like eating at fast food chains we don't get here. Del Taco has tasty fish tacos. Chick-fil-a has delicious fish. Mmmmmmmm....

I like local places too. If I'm going out for a nicer meal, I prefer something more unique. Certain chains do certain things very well, and local places do certain things very well. It's a free market and both have their place.

Big upgrades planned for Marinette, Bay shipyards

The Italian company that owns Marinette Marine Corp., of Marinette, and Bay Shipbuilding Co., in Sturgeon Bay, said Thursday it is spending more than $40 million in improvements at those two shipyards in 2009 and 2010 - with even more improvements coming if those operations land additional contracts.

the rest here;
http://www.jsonline.com/business/69302137.html

I admit, sometimes when I am really hungry in some distant land (like Ashwaubenon) and I need to eat in an animalistic sort of way, I stop at a chain like Taco Bell or KFC or even Arby's, and within a couple of minutes I am ready to beat my way out from under all the bags, wrappers, cardboard, plastic cups, cup trays, condiments, and action figures, get back on the main drag and get on with it.

But NIMBY. Although a little flexibility is a virtue, it's strategic to recognise that chains (vs. local independent businesses) are bad for the local economy in so many ways.

How bad depends on the types, whether a restaurant or store is corporate-owned or a franchise, and whether big box, fast food, etc. Some franchises allow flexibility at the local level, others not so much. And even with corporate-owned units, there are always exceptions to the rule. Some chains create community-oriented flagships they can point to for promotional purposes. In some areas community standards and savvy dictate a more community-tailored approach when a chain comes in. The Mequon McDonald’s is a hoot!

With some big box stores, saying that 20% of a dollar remains in the community is a pretty generous overestimate. http://www.staylocal.org/pdf/info/ThinkingOutsidetheBox_1.pdf

Independent local businesses return greater revenues to local economies than do chains, without a doubt. Generally (note the qualification)--

With chains, profits take the fast track out of town, unlike independent businesses, where profits remain with local owners.

Chains don’t purchase their inventory locally. They take advantage of economies of scale, working from corporate headquarters to purchase in large quantities and contract cheaply for mass production. (This does not necessarily translate as lower retail prices.)

Mostly chains don’t purchase services locally. From corporate headquarters, they standardize advertising, development, management, research, distribution systems, etc. Even elements of construction are outsourced beyond the locale, in whole or part.

In practice, chains are consummate at negotiating local tax subsidies and incentives, often diminishing the store or restaurant’s actual contribution to the tax base.

Usually they hire locally for low-paid service jobs, but often they relocate employees from elsewhere, especially management positions that are more highly skilled/highly paid/benefitted.

In terms of land use, fast food restaurants in particular (and big box stores) are expensive in ways often not analyzed by local governments, which don’t factor in the disproportionate per-square-foot costs of providing city services such as road maintenance and public safety.

Some studies: http://portlandbuylocal.org/content/view/14/28

Those are the most quantifiable economic realities of chains vs. independent local businesses.

But the main deal to me is the nothingification of places when chains move in. Each chain store and restaurant costs a community part of its cultural identity and sense of place, which are a community’s greatest assets. Ashwaubenon seems to have doubled down on chain stores, but in areas like Downtown Green Bay and the Broadway District, ultimately cultural identity and sense of place are what you take to the bank.

Well said Marseilles, I'm glad you've joined us.

Why the Blizzard will be in the IFL:

Today also brings a new chapter for this franchise as we are the newest expansion team of the premier Indoor Football League. The IFL is a very stable and growing league that stretches from Richmond, Virginia to Alaska, 23 teams strong to date. We are very excited to have new rivals in such cities as La Crosse, Wisconsin coached by former Packer great Gilbert “Gravedigger” Brown as well as Chicago and Bloomington, Illinois.

These changes of course will bring about a lot of questions and I certainly want to make every effort to make sure you get the correct information. I know there will be questions as to why we are playing in a different league. The simple answer is the IFL provides this franchise the most financially sound business model and a brand of indoor football that all the fans in Northeastern Wisconsin will find extremely exciting. In addition the team’s former league af2 no longer exists and new leagues like Arena Football 1 are still in a conceptual state. With that being said, I wanted there to be no doubt we’d play football in 2010 and there is no doubt in my mind that we have made these important business decisions based on what’s best for this franchise to grow and prosper in our community for many, many years.

I'm aware of many of these issues you bring up on chain restaurants. It brought to mind a movie I recently watched, "Fast Food Nation" which did a nice job of bringing many of the issues to light (though perhaps in a twisted sort of way).

However I think fast food joints are like anything...as long as they are not in excess I think there is a place for them. Just like roads and cars...I really do like roads and cars, but I sometimes complain about what I feel is excessive use of them.

"The city is seeking federal stimulus dollars to demolish the old Washington Commons ]



I am not sure on the status on any of the Stimulus projects. Here is a link (http://www.stimuluswatch.org/project/by_city/Green%20Bay/WI) to the submitted projects.

Anyone know where you can get any additional info?

This is very interesting...The "stimulus watch" website lets people vote to help show which projects people feel are most important....Of the many Green Bay stimulus projects. the dowtnown mall demo and infrastructure development is in the top 3, just barely behind the top ranked projects (one of which is the library). Check out more detail here and vote (http://www.stimuluswatch.org/project/view/6238)!

Thanks for leading me to that link GBSurveyor. I had thought the stimulus for mall demo was ruled out, but I guess the possibility is still alive? Worth keeping an eye on.

I am a bit torn on the chains. On one hand, I think they are great for the area, especially when trying to begin development, which is why I think we need a few downtown GB. People are familiar with chains and it gets them out and about. Just look at Bay Park area. PEOPLE LOVE CHAINS! Don't get me wrong, if a local business and a chain were vying for the same location, could offer the same tax base, and provide the same number of jobs I would be pulling for the local business every time. But if it comes down to a lot sitting vacant for 10 years or getting a big box retailer or chain restaurant I would choose the latter any day of the week. Not only that, but chains still provide jobs. Its amazing how many people a restaurant or retailer employs and any number of people we can get working right now I am all in favor of. Also, if chains were taken away where would our beloved Shopko be? I know it seems local to us, but in reality it is a chain retailer.

Not only that, but what about supply in demand? If a big box goes up next to a local mom and pop shop and the big box wins out, is that really their fault? I think its unfair to blame the big businesses for having a business model that works and being able to execute on it. Yes, it "ruins" the culture a bit, but the actions of the shoppers would speak louder than words. Cost and convenience are more important than a local feel when shopping for retail items.

Again, I don't want to be misunderstood here. I love the many local restaurants and shops (I prefer them), but to say chains and big box retailers are the evil empire (I know those words weren't explicitly used, just the feeling I get) is a bit overstated. Think of this for a second... take away Best Buy, Festival, Younkers, Shell, BP, Citgo, Kohls, Target, Bed Bath & Beyond, Barnes & Nobel, Wal-Mart, Marcus Theaters, Menards, Home Depot, and every other big box retailer you can think of.... what would our unemployment be? What kind of tax base would we have? How much worse off would the greater GB area be?

Alright.. I know I'm in for it :nuts:

Thanks for posting about the Blizzard, MattGiguere. I have been scouring GBPG and local media sites for weeks looking for an update what the decision was and why. I originally thought "Oh No" when I heard the announcement of the IFL, but after reading Jeff's comments and thinking a bit more about it I'm not sure this is such a terrible idea. The AFL doesn't have a great track record when it comes to sustainability and this being their first year they could see some growing pains. I understand Jeff to be a very smart and business-savvy man and I'm sure he weighed all of the options. Remember that nearly every business and sports league was the underdog at sometime. I know there are a lot of ticket-holders and fans out there upset by this move, but I am going to withhold judgment until I see the product. For me (and most people in this area, I think) the Blizzard is not necessarily about winning championships (it would be nice), but more of a family-friendly entertainment option. And Royle is pretty good at providing that. Winning is important, but it doesn't mean you are in a bad league (if so, the Lions, Rams, Clippers, T-Wolves, Royals, Pirates etc. all would have fled their respective leagues years ago). As long as they put together a somewhat competitive team and provide the same level of value and entertainment I don't think people are going to care whether the league is spelled IFL or AFL.

I'm aware of many of these issues you bring up on chain restaurants. It brought to mind a movie I recently watched, "Fast Food Nation" which did a nice job of bringing many of the issues to light (though perhaps in a twisted sort of way).

May be a little of topic, but here it goes.

Puant: If you liked "Fast Food Nation," try "Food, Inc." It takes a broader look at the industrialization of the entire agricultural industry, great film.

^^
because that's where they are from, despite our area having a local franchise of BKC, called Valley King, Inc. Walmart gives back to Bentonville, Arkansas, because that's where this union-hating discount retailer is from, whether you like it or not. We have ShopKo, one of the few regional discount chains left in existence (and Green Bay's very own homegrown Target-like retailer), here in Green Bay, Wisconsin, they, of course, give back to our community in many ways. No matter where your from, the big corporation headquartered in your city, will generate lots of money for your community.
Is BK union? Is Target Union? is Shopko union? Why was only ONE company singled out as UNION HATING, actually the majority of Americans hate unions, should you also use that lable on them?

Think of this for a second... take away Barnes & Noble...

Uh-oh! Drop the books! Now you've got me where I live!

But I'd love it if someone would open a bookshop on Broadway. Or if Reader's Loft moved there.... I spent a fortune at Powell's Books, the country's largest independent, a city block and four stories high, when I lived in Portland.

gbmphillips - last time i checked the restaurants and stores I mentioned the employees uhh, work there....my patronage helps keep them working there. And Miller, the brewery is still in Milwaukee, the brewery is where people work to brew beer, you know, Milwaukee, Wisconsin??? sure some money goes overseas...OHH WAIT, money trumps everything in your mind right? Well nevermind, forget about the employees at the Miller Brewery in Milwaukee.

Lets see so you go to those places because they hire local state people, and you would not go to Sonic because they hire from outside the state or are they little green Martians in disguise?

You bring up a good point about Toys R Us. I am very surprised that that store has not either moved our closed. Every time I go in there there seems to be only a few people shopping. If they do move, that would mean two big box stores sitting empty on West Mason/Military in addition to the old Circuit City on Mason.
.
Actually the Toys r Us store is doing very well over there.

Uh-oh! Drop the books! Now you've got me where I live!

My post wasn't directed at only the availability of books (Internet could serve this purpose entirely), but rather the employment opportunities that they provide. You remove the big box retailers and we have tens of thousands more jobless claims coming from the GB area. My point is that in tough economic times we shouldn't be trash talking the big retailers that want to come in here and provide a living for some folks that are in dire need of it.

Again, I don't want to be misunderstood here. I love the many local restaurants and shops (I prefer them), but to say chains and big box retailers are the evil empire (I know those words weren't explicitly used, just the feeling I get) is a bit overstated. Think of this for a second... take away Best Buy, Festival, Younkers, Shell, BP, Citgo, Kohls, Target, Bed Bath & Beyond, Barnes & Nobel, Wal-Mart, Marcus Theaters, Menards, Home Depot, and every other big box retailer you can think of.... what would our unemployment be? What kind of tax base would we have? How much worse off would the greater GB area be?

Alright.. I know I'm in for it :nuts:

Oh my Lord, someone who actually understands the importance of box stores and chains to the local economy and tax base. Also they provide what the mom and pops cannot, variety, quality and pricing,

Article on the Astor House for sale.
www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091107/GPG03/911070606/-1/archive


An $8-$10 million Festival Foods store (yes, it's a chain) coming to the Urban Edge shopping center in Suamico. Bates City BarBque is moving there as well, from Appleton.
www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091107/GPG03/911070604/-1/archive?GID=edPIJisOrnOxOhizOkyTrgUtYAf16uEmvTi+fVq+hP4%3D


Editorial on the shouting match at this week's City Council meeting. Yes, it was about Vicenzi's.
www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091106/GPG0602/911060571/1269/GPG06/Editorial--Aldermen-may-need-permanent-timeouts

You remove the big box retailers and we have tens of thousands more jobless claims coming from the GB area. My point is that in tough economic times we shouldn't be trash talking the big retailers that want to come in here and provide a living for some folks that are in dire need of it.

True enough, if you disappeared the chains and the big box stores today, there would be a vast emptiness where most of Ashwaubenon once lay.

But I'm not suggesting that. Nor am I making light of joblessness or of Ashwaubenon's industriousness in claiming such a large retail marketshare in Green Bay.

Analyzing local vs chain is critical because communities make the best choices when well informed, and poor choices can be tragic in small and large ways. I don't think of the big box store as an evil empire. It is just one of several possible ways we arrange our economic and social transactions. It's all ours. The question is, what's the best choice for an empowered community to make for itself, starting with information, analysis, a vision, and a plan?

On this board the touchstone for a successful downtown is "vibrancy." Downtown and the Broadway District have to keep an eye on the prize. We would lose the integrity of these two districts' greatest assets--cultural identity and a sense of place--with an influx of chains. But that's not likely to be a problem in the short term, for reasons Danillo (I think) has pointed out before.

I think in response to OliverDP's questions about what would happen if you took away the big box stores, the answer is that they'd be replaced by local stores similar to the ones they themselves replaced. Some communities actively promote that by not allowing big-box stores. Personally, I think the big boxes are a result of consumer demand. They have developed a successful business model that people like. One thing GBM didn't mention in his list of their advantages is consistency. Walk into any major chain location across the country and you know what you are going to get. That's good in some ways and bad in some ways, but people like it, so it's successful. I think a case could be made that chains would be less successful if fuel costs rise or agricultural practices became more sustainable, but in all likelihood most would adapt to different market conditions and do fine.

I think that some things need to be done to make trade more fair, to make agriculture more sustainable, and to reduce energy consumption. That said, chains work because they provide goods very efficiently within the market framework within which they exist. That's okay, and unless you are prepared to throw out the free-market, there are going to be chains. Personally I do try to support a local business, but in reality that's only up to the point that the local business provides me with value. Value can be determined in a lot of ways including but beyond price, so I will sometimes pay more for local if I think it's worthwhile, but sometimes I'll go to a chain place if I think they provide superior value.

Finally, I don't begrudge people in other places their money or their jobs. It's a purchase by purchase decision, and obviously I don't want Green Bay to lose jobs. But the best way to keep jobs here is to make it a good place to do business and to provide quality of life, a good educational system, and an entrepreneurial spirit. In general terms, if my money supports jobs in Arkansas, I don't have a problem with that. If my money supports jobs in Indonesia, I don't have a problem with that either (so long as those jobs aren't exploitative, which is a fantastically hard determination to make when you see a shirt in a store). I'll sum up my feeling thusly: I have plenty of things made in China, Indonesia, Jordan, Lesotho, or wherever. I think we need trade policies to make that trade fair for US workers and for the workers in those countries, but in general terms I have no issues buying those things. At the same time, I pretty much only buy Wigwam socks now, prefer New Balance athletic shoes, and have bikes made by Trek and Warterford. Those items appealed to me because they were made in the US (or in the case of the socks and the bikes, Wisconsin), but moreover, I really felt that even if those things cost a bit more, they were a greater overall value. In that vein, local business can succeed when it provides greater value to consumers than chains or imports.

On this board the touchstone for a successful downtown is "vibrancy." Downtown and the Broadway District have to keep an eye on the prize. We would lose the integrity of these two districts' greatest assets--cultural identity and a sense of place--with an influx of chains. But that's not likely to be a problem in the short term, for reasons Danillo (I think) has pointed out before.

You beat me in by a minute with your post. Yes, my feeling is that chains generally don't lead trends, local entrepreneurs lead trends. As an area becomes more successful the demographics may change such that chains start to move in, but they are unlikely to serve as a major catalyst for that transformation. Just think of what's happened at Bay Park Square. That mall used to be much smaller, and have many more local stores. I'm thinking of stores like "Alma Matre" which sold clothes for all the local high schools. Eventually, trends changed and Bay Park became a more desirable place to do business, and now that mall is full of chains. I personally don't think that change is good or bad, it just is.

SLATE MAGAZINE
CHUNK OF BAGUETTE STALLS SWISS PARTICLE COLLIDER (http://slatest.slate.com/id/2234859/entry/4/)

The Large Hadron Collider has endured its share of mishaps, but perhaps none so befuddling as the most recent: a mysterious piece of baguette has caused one of its cooling units to fail. The collider, which has cost the CERN particle physics laboratory in Geneva more than $6 billion, was supposed to become fully operational more than a year ago, but a faulty magnet connection and a helium leak have delayed the launch. As for Thursday's errant chunk of bread: "Nobody knows how it got there," a spokeswoman for developer Vetter Denk told the Times of London. "The best guess is that it was dropped by a bird, either that or it was thrown out of a passing aeroplane."


The Times (of London) | Friday, Nov. 6, 2009 (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/physics/article6905250.ece)

Just ran in and out of Green Bay for a day and a half. Have not been there for four years.
Improved: More restaurants in all corners of the city. There are fast food and sit down chains I never heard of and that's a good thing. G.B. is used as a test city, but that means you get the duds too and something to talk about. You have bragging rights to new places as being first.
There are more locally owned and more creative places than before.
Cool Beans: Saw the outlet on W. Mason. What would ever attract someone to drive in? A tiny green sign and no indication of what it is for. Not everyone will associate "beans" with coffee and ice cream. Green isn't the best color to associate with coffee and ice cream.
Not so cool: Strip zoning. This continues along developing areas such as Bellevue. This causes more near misses. As long as new development is taking place better to have a frontage road and more careful zoning. This was done elsewhere in the area.
Hanson's closing:cry: This was the best place for sandwiches, but this is happening everywhere. People are influenced by the saturation advertising of the big guys like Subway.
Orange sodium vapor street lights. I've always thought G.B. is a dark city to drive through and no lights in a lot of areas. Need more light on the 172 bridge and the I-43 bridge is downright scary at night. I think some of the lighting problems in those areas is more of a county board issue.
I heard there is a grand opening of the Boardwalk tied in with a Christmas parade downtown. Let's hope there can be a way to keep people to the walk.

May be a little of topic, but here it goes.

Puant: If you liked "Fast Food Nation," try "Food, Inc." It takes a broader look at the industrialization of the entire agricultural industry, great film.

You can watch an interview with the Director of _Food Inc._ from the PBS show NOW.

http://video.pbs.org/video/1143263943/

I loved "Fast Food Nation." I was one of the biggest lovers of fast food / McDonald's until I read that book. Since then, I would not be caught dead in a fast food restaurant and find it difficult to eat meat in general.


"Think of this for a second... take away Best Buy, Festival, Younkers, Shell, BP, Citgo, Kohls, Target, Bed Bath & Beyond, Barnes & Nobel, Wal-Mart, Marcus Theaters, Menards, Home Depot, and every other big box retailer you can think of.."

It would be AWESOME! There would be several independent book stores instead of just one. There would be a return of the local hardware store. Local grocery stores that people could walk to would come back. We may even begin to make our own clothes and grow our own food again!! Jobs would be meaningful, creative, and benefit the community. When did "Buy American" become "Out-Sourcing for All" ?? Buying locally benefits us in SO many ways. There is less energy used, less pollution, and the money spent is invested in local families and communities. It is also easier to make sure that products are being produced in a responsible manner, resources are being harvested in a sustainable manner, and that workers are being treated fairly and receiving a fair wage.

For those of you who don't quite get why some people hate WalMart, I suggest the film: "WALMART: the high cost of low price."

By the way, I heard from some bikers that I know that TREK bikes are no longer manufactured in Wisconsin. Their production has been out-sourced to China.

J
Hanson's closing:cry: This was the best place for sandwiches, but this is happening everywhere. People are influenced by the saturation advertising of the big guys like Subway.

Hate to say it... I like the owner(s) and food of Zepplins... was one of my favorite places to stop when they were right on University (not the strip mall) and of course for many of the early years of Artstreet and other GB festivals...

but when they "merged" or were bought out by or whatever with Hansen's - or maybe both were bought out by a 3rd party and merged?, the quality and receipes changed. They used the Zep's subs - but bought lower quality meats/ingredients or it tasted that way... and they changed the receipe of the broated chicken and potato wedgies. YUCK... I stopped eating there... slowly the other locations of Hansen's also changed and eventually "Hansen's the pizza company" stopped having them as outlets for their pizza (from what I remember)...

Also when they had the location in the current location of Vincenzi's... they thought they had a gold mine... all those APAC people upstairs... this would be where they got hot food! But they were SLOW... often taking 20-25 min to prep and make a SUB! - guess who won that war?? Subway and Erberts! ( APAC reps gets 30 min for lunch)

Also several people got sick early on from undercooked chicken - word of mouth in a call center is like lightening!! Then they started randomly closing... overall... they hurt themselves... and finally closed.

And back to another comment made previously about Vincenzis and Club 56 - can't the liquor licence in GB be made stricter? If you say you are going to open one thing... and both places were going to be nice lunch places to eat and evening Jazz and live music nightclubs... (both went Hip Hop and attracted problem crowds - which unfortuately gives that genre of music a bad name)

I would think there could be stipulations that they follow a business plan or come back to the committee and council to amend the plan as needed so we get what the downtown needs (IMHO).

And a final note... I was in Appleton for Halloween.... I can't wait for July and the bars here go smoke free!!! was SOOOO nice to come home and not have that smell on my clothes and feel the need to strip inside the door and jump in a shower immediately!!

You can watch an interview with the Director of _Food Inc._ from the PBS show NOW.

http://video.pbs.org/video/1143263943/

Great interview, thanks for posting it. I worked on an agribusiness-EPA project in California, trying to decrease chemical runoff--huge laser-leveled fields, baking in a muddy sludge of pesticides. A real stretch from there to the wholesome-foods image in the grocery aisle.

It would be AWESOME! ....Local grocery stores that people could walk to would come back. We may even begin....to grow our own food again!! When did "Buy American" become "Out-Sourcing for All" ?
^^

There's a community garden with several individual plots northwest of upper Broadway, by the train tracks--it would be great to see more of that around.

I’d really like to see an indoor winter farmer’s market. Doesn't Appleton have one? I don't know what the history of it in Green Bay might be, any previous attempts, but it seems the time is ripe (so to speak). Saturday Market is popular, and the farmer’s market on Broadway this year has real momentum, it's a tremendous catalyst for the district, and presumably many would follow it to a winter location. There is no grocery store that comes close to providing the variety of local fruits and vegetables available at the farmer’s markets in the growing season--seven or eight varieties just of fingerling potatoes… And eggs, cheeses, meats, breads, preserves… Hydroponic veggies are sold by some of the vendors in the summer, and might be feasible to grow locally in the winter, I would think.

I know an indoor farmer’s market was pursued for a while as an idea at the Cannery building on Main (home of the ARTgarage), and some version of it also was kicked around, I heard, for the cavernous southern-most building of the Jones Motor Company on Broadway. Urban Frog on Broadway does have a good start on an indoor winter market stand on Saturday mornings.

It would be great if the downtown food co-op, which must be still in the planning stages, would reconsider crossing the river (like the Chamber of Commerce did) and take on the Shopko space, maybe partner with Streu’s/Bay Natural for the pharmacy service. It does seem that Broadway is developing into the alternative living/health food capital of the realm. Kavarna...Urban Frog....House of Tawet....Vita Raw (raw vegan food, and really good, too)

And a final note...I can't wait for July and the bars here go smoke free!!!
I can't wait to get a good breakfast!! I think some of these diehard local dives with the great home-cooked meals might be surprised by increased business next summer.

There's a community garden with several individual plots northwest of upper Broadway, by the train tracks--it would be great to see more of that around.



This past Spring there was interest in organizing a community garden in Navarino on a vacant lot owned by the city. The idea was brought to the attention of the neighborhood association by Neighborhood Development Specialist Andy Rosendahl on behalf of some downtown residents. An article about growing tomatoes and notice was given in the Spring neighborhood newsletter along with a contact number to call. I don't know how many calls the number got in regards to people interested. Some of the issues that were brought up at the initial meeting were; no source of water at any of the lots, and soil conditions (when a house is razed the hole where the basement was is filled with sand making for terrible water retention in the topsoil.)

There was an attempt at this once before about 6 or 7 years ago but people never made use of it so the lot became overgrown with weeds. There are a few people in the neighborhood that have gardens of good size and they sell vegetables from their homes. There's one house on Stuart that comes to mind that usually puts up a yard sign for tomatoes, tomatillos and other produce starting in midsummer. That may be the more efficient way to go about it. Encourage residents with larger lots to use their own land to garden on to become micro producers at the neighborhood level.

Here's the info that ran in the Navarino News in Spring;

Got Some Sun?
You too can grow vegetables in your own yard!
By: Paul Hartman - Horticulture Agent (Retired)

It is not complicated. Full sun is best, but you can get by with 6 hours or less. Plant what you like to eat and make it a
family affair. Start small and use high value vegetables first. High value vegetables include tomatoes which will produce
4 pounds/sq.ft. For 50 sq. ft. you'll get 200 pounds of fruit and gross $200. Other high volume, high value vegetables
include carrots, peppers, broccoli, beets, onions, radishes, spinach, cabbage and cauliflower. Start with a small plot:
20ftx10ft or 10ftx10ft. Make a plan, buy some plants or seeds, and you are ready to go!
Tilling on a small plot is easily done with a gravel shovel; turn the grass right under when it is dry enough to turn over.
Cool season crops are those listed above except tomatoes and peppers. You can buy seed and plants at a local greenhouse
or big box store. Buy seed for carrots, radishes, beets and spinach. Buy plants for cauliflower, cabbage, broccoli and
onions. Save some room for tomatoes and peppers. Space plants 1 feet apart for peppers and 3 feet apart for tomatoes.
Seeds and plants of cool season crops are planted when the soil temperature is above 50 degrees F., and it isn't too muddy.
Warm season crops, peppers and tomatoes, are planted when soil temperatures are 60 degrees F. Cool season plants can
be planted in April if it is not too wet. Warm season crops are usually planted from May 10 and beyond, depending on
when the soil reaches 60 degrees F.
Read the labels on seed packets and ask questions at your plant source. Growing your own vegetables may not save you a
lot of money, but you are guaranteed fresh vegetables and you know how they were raised. If you have question on
getting started, call Paul Hartman at 437-6831.

Navarino Community Gardens

Interested in growing your own vegetables this summer but don't have the room? We are looking into 2 areas of
Navarino to put Community Gardens in. If you are interested or just want more info please call Karen at 499-9853.
Save money and eat healthier!

There was an attempt at this once before about 6 or 7 years ago but people never made use of it so the lot became overgrown with weeds. Navarino News[/B] in Spring;


I've always been amazed by the skills some people have by turning a very small plot into a vertical mega garden. I now have two very large gardens along with other acreage, I hope to be able to capitalize on the land & grow some fresh veggies I can eat year around. I am a expert in weed growth up to this point.

Orange sodium vapor street lights. I've always thought G.B. is a dark city to drive through and no lights in a lot of areas. Need more light on the 172 bridge and the I-43 bridge is downright scary at night. I think some of the lighting problems in those areas is more of a county board issue.
I heard there is a grand opening of the Boardwalk tied in with a Christmas parade downtown. Let's hope there can be a way to keep people to the walk.

The 172 bridge will be lit up late next summer when the construction is finished. Also, when 41 gets expanded they will light up the roundabouts as well as the hwy interchanges such as 172, 29, and 43. I really wish they would light up the 22 mile beltline around the city, but of course it must come down to available money. It was hard enough to get lights up on the 43 Leo Frigo. We had to request this to the GB city beautification committee and they then received a grant for the GB Port w/ the US Homeland Security dept.

I've always been amazed by the skills some people have by turning a very small plot into a vertical mega garden. I now have two very large gardens along with other acreage, I hope to be able to capitalize on the land & grow some fresh veggies I can eat year around. I am a expert in weed growth up to this point.

Like the article I posted states, tomato plants grow a lot of fruit. My mother grows tomatoes and various raspberries and she can keep tomatoes on hand into mid-December. She grows the raspberries around the fresh air intake for the HVAC system, so when the bushes are full of fruit and aromatic, the inside of the house smells like berries. Berries can be frozen so you can enjoy them with your eggs and toast year round. It takes about a year for a bush to start producing. Homegrown berries are so much better than the bland tasting ones you get at the supermarket. They make good wine too. Blueberries are another good one to grow.

Article on the Astor House for sale.
www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091107/GPG03/911070606/-1/archive


An $8-$10 million Festival Foods store (yes, it's a chain) coming to the Urban Edge shopping center in Suamico. Bates City BarBque is moving there as well, from Appleton.
www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091107/GPG03/911070604/-1/archive?GID=edPIJisOrnOxOhizOkyTrgUtYAf16uEmvTi+fVq+hP4%3D


Editorial on the shouting match at this week's City Council meeting. Yes, it was about Vicenzi's.
www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091106/GPG0602/911060571/1269/GPG06/Editorial--Aldermen-may-need-permanent-timeouts

I mentioned a while ago that Maria's was opening another restaurant in Howard. At the time, I was told it was going to be on Cardinal, but it looks like Maria's will also be in that Pioneer CU building, with the BBQ place.

"Think of this for a second... take away Best Buy, Festival, Younkers, Shell, BP, Citgo, Kohls, Target, Bed Bath & Beyond, Barnes & Nobel, Wal-Mart, Marcus Theaters, Menards, Home Depot, and every other big box retailer you can think of.."

It would be AWESOME! There would be several independent book stores instead of just one. There would be a return of the local hardware store. Local grocery stores that people could walk to would come back. We may even begin to make our own clothes and grow our own food again!! Jobs would be meaningful, creative, and benefit the community. When did "Buy American" become "Out-Sourcing for All" ?? Buying locally benefits us in SO many ways. There is less energy used, less pollution, and the money spent is invested in local families and communities. It is also easier to make sure that products are being produced in a responsible manner, resources are being harvested in a sustainable manner, and that workers are being treated fairly and receiving a fair wage.

I'm not sure this is so cut and dried. When this country was founded, like 90% of the people were employed in agriculture. The industrial revolution combined with efficiencies in agriculture mean that now only like 2% of people farm, but those 2% provide more than enough food for everyone. That doesn't mean that only 2% of people are employed. We do other things and that means we are far more productive and there's a much higher overall standard of living.

Similarly, it's easy to say that chains are bad and that we used to have all these good jobs in this sector or that sector and that if we just got rid of the chains we'd have all these great jobs etc. But it isn't that simple. The chain stores work because they are more efficient. They allow the economy to do more with the same resources. If you go back to the old way, you'd shrink the economy, just as if we went back to 1776 employment patterns, while that may bring back more jobs in farming, you'd also be going back to 1776 per-capita GDP levels.

Now, some of this is retarded by low fuel costs and unsustainable practices. I get that. Fixing those things will likely move more production locally and change our economic patters. That's necessary. Still, there are what, 7 billion people to feed? That's going to take industrial processes to accomplish. The key is to make those processes sustainable, not to reduce overall economic productivity.

In fact, from a practical standpoint, developing systems that allow agriculture and commerce to be more fair and more sustainable are really the only thing that matters. If you are asking people to reduce their standard of living, or to pay substantially more of organic foods, or whatever, they never will in sufficient numbers until a crisis forces them to. However, if we can develop systems that accomplish sustainability goals at an affordable price and that allow people to make money off those systems, then the market will readily embrace such changes before a crises forces that upon us.

By the way, I heard from some bikers that I know that TREK bikes are no longer manufactured in Wisconsin. Their production has been out-sourced to China.

Not so. Trek does make bike in China (or maybe Taiwan, I'm not sure which). However, they also have over time increased employment in Wisconsin (I'm not sure what's happened in the last year or so with the economy and all). Basically, their cheaper bikes are made overseas and the high end carbon models are made here. It's a logical business model. You have companies like Giant which is based in Taiwan and can make quality bikes at cheap prices. To compete with that Trek basically MUST manufacture a large portion of their bikes overseas. However, I think all of the design work for the bikes is done here (they just recently opened a pretty amazing new design center) and their top-end bikes are made here because they are a premium product, they demand a higher degree of skill and quality control, and are sold at a price that allows for them to be made here. But they key point is that by producing a competitive product overseas, the company does better, and in the long run that has led to INCREASED employment by Trek in Wisconsin. Trek does offer factory tours if you ever want to see their WI production in person.

County Board votes not to pursue for now a study looking at the possible privatization of the county's Planning Department.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091109/GPG0101/91109146/1978/Brown-County-Board-shelves-study-of-privatizing-planning


I mentioned a while ago that Maria's was opening another restaurant in Howard. At the time, I was told it was going to be on Cardinal, but it looks like Maria's will also be in that Pioneer CU building, with the BBQ place.

I've never seen the Urban Edge shopping center. Will have to take a look some day.

County Board votes not to pursue for now a study looking at the possible privatization of the county's Planning Department.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091109/GPG0101/91109146/1978/Brown-County-Board-shelves-study-of-privatizing-planning




I've never seen the Urban Edge shopping center. Will have to take a look some day.

It's a nice area, and getting better all the time. My wife & I bought a lot in Howard a few years ago & are planning to build a house, so I know the area very well.

This brings up something I've been wanting to mention for a while, actually. We spend a lot of time discussing downtown and urban living. If you go out to Howard on Lineville, within walking/biking distance there are multiple restaurants, a grocery store (with another on the way), department store (shopko) shopko express, a couple gas stations, a hotel, a bowling alley, a greenhouse, auto repair/oil change place, coffee shop... It seems like there was a good plan in place when it was developed. When I was in Denver, I noticed lots of little areas like this outside of downtown - kind of like "mini-downtowns" with the essentials. Yes, it's the suburbs, but well-designed is well-designed..

I love you guys. Just wanted to go on the record! This forum has consistently held my interest for a couple of years now. Thanks for your sustaining enthusiasm.

When I was in Denver, I noticed lots of little areas like this outside of downtown - kind of like "mini-downtowns" with the essentials. Yes, it's the suburbs, but well-designed is well-designed..

Two years ago I was in Destin, FL and there was a mini downtown that was situated on about 75 acres. It had two streets with three access points, two of which were on the Inter-coastal Highway and the other on a side street. The buildings had two story facades but were only single story. There was free angled street parking and wide sidewalks. It had mostly chain retail targeted at the tourists, but any development will reflect the local needs of the consumers.

It would be AWESOME! There would be several independent book stores instead of just one. There would be a return of the local hardware store. Local grocery stores that people could walk to would come back.
The problem is these little stores cannot not provide the selection and pricing the box stores can and that is what people really want. It's cute to walk to the store for a couple of items but for most families a trip to the store is a lot more than just a single bag.

I love you guys. Just wanted to go on the record! This forum has consistently held my interest for a couple of years now. Thanks for your sustaining enthusiasm.

I 2nd that. It's interesting that, despite a slowdown in development, this forum is going as strong as ever. It's also nice to take a bit of a back seat to the discussion and just sit back and listen to what you all have to say. I like seeing new perspectives on things.

The problem is these little stores cannot not provide the selection and pricing the box stores can and that is what people really want. It's cute to walk to the store for a couple of items but for most families a trip to the store is a lot more than just a single bag.

Well...I see your point. On the other hand, the big box / chain retailers subject us to a blitz of advertising to "convince" us that we "need" stuff that perhaps we don't really need. How do they convince? In many ways, sometimes very subtly. For one they often offer "bargain price" for stuff that is only marginally needed...we often buy it because it seems "inexpensive". But the sum of all of it has all-to-often been overwhelming in terms of expense (and worse, credit) to the point where many have found themselves buried in debt and nothing to show for it but a bunch of cheap crap. I think that under the old economic system, wants were more closely aligned with needs. But there I go with my conservative viewpoint on matters. Sorry.

But the sum of all of it has all-to-often been overwhelming in terms of expense (and worse, credit) to the point where many have found themselves buried in debt and nothing to show for it but a bunch of cheap crap.^^I agree!


http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt133/marseilles_bucket/Picture1-1.jpg

Cat, having worked very hard to get somewhere,
now wondering where it is he really got.

Well...I see your point. On the other hand, the big box / chain retailers subject us to a blitz of advertising to "convince" us that we "need" stuff that perhaps we don't really need. How do they convince? In many ways, sometimes very subtly. For one they often offer "bargain price" for stuff that is only marginally needed...we often buy it because it seems "inexpensive". But the sum of all of it has all-to-often been overwhelming in terms of expense (and worse, credit) to the point where many have found themselves buried in debt and nothing to show for it but a bunch of cheap crap. I think that under the old economic system, wants were more closely aligned with needs. But there I go with my conservative viewpoint on matters. Sorry.

During a lecture for a Packaging class it was estimated that 2 out of every 3 purchases made in a supermarket are unplanned, impulse decision buys. I find this number staggering, would it be the same if we went into Austin's as compared to Festival or Copps? Does this have to do with the 'big box' influence? Has the diversification of decisions (variety) of choices in the supermarket really caused us to buy more?

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/brady_street.jpgThe problem is these little stores cannot not provide the selection and pricing the box stores can and that is what people really want. It's cute to walk to the store for a couple of items but for most families a trip to the store is a lot more than just a single bag.

No doubt the big-box stores and restaurants are popular . . . but not for everyone and not all the time. That's why you have the Broadway District or Olde Main Street or State Street in Madison or Brady Street in Milwaukee (above) . . . or Door County, for that matter. Sometimes people want atmosphere, less hubbub and a certain originality.


New CityDeck construction photo: www.packerland.blogspot.com/

No doubt the big-box stores and restaurants are popular . . . but not for everyone and not all the time. That's why you have the Broadway District or Olde Main Street or State Street in Madison or Brady Street in Milwaukee (above) . . . or Door County, for that matter. Sometimes people want atmosphere, less hubbub and a certain originality.


I love Brady Street. I have a friend that lives right off of Brady and I visit him pretty often. It's almost the perfect mix of chain to locally owned. You have a Wallgreen's, a Subway and a Starbucks but then Casablanca, Burger Joint and Exclusive Company and alot more. Only bad thing about that area is parking. Once you've found a spot you can walk anywhere but finding one nearby can sometimes be difficult. Here is Brady's BID website. (http://www.bradyst.com/index.html)

I love Brady Street. I have a friend that lives right off of Brady and I visit him pretty often. It's almost the perfect mix of chain to locally owned. You have a Wallgreen's, a Subway and a Starbucks but then Casablanca, Burger Joint and Exclusive Company and alot more. Only bad thing about that area is parking. Once you've found a spot you can walk anywhere but finding one nearby can sometimes be difficult. Here is Brady's BID website. (http://www.bradyst.com/index.html)
I guess that you could say that in most places that are an enjoyable place to be.

here we go again..

Work on Younkers site stalls again
Bank sought to participate in loan
By Richard Ryman • rryman@greenbaypressgazette.com • November 11, 2009

Riverfront redevelopment of the downtown Younkers site is stalled again.


Calumet County Bank, one of the lenders on the project, needs to find one or more other banks to participate in its loan and is having trouble doing so, Allison Swanson, Green Bay city attorney, told the Redevelopment Authority on Tuesday.

"The banks are so concerned with regulators … about surviving stress tests, they think having cash is better than commercial paper," she said.

The project, named WaterMark by developer John Vetter, is to include office, retail and condominium space in addition to a parking garage, the Green Bay Children's Museum and Hagemeister Park restaurant.

The financing package sets up like this:

The city is loaning Vetter $3.5 million at 5.5 percent interest for seven years. Calumet County Bank and its partners will loan the project $4.5 million. The Wisconsin Housing and Economic Development Authority will provide Vetter a loan for 20 percent of the value of the project for seven years, or about $2.5 million, using new market tax credits.

Calumet County Bank cannot provide the entire $4.5 million share it committed to because of banking regulations. Initially, the bank and its partners were committed for 30 months, but a change in buyers of the new market tax credits resulted in a change in the terms of the deal. Calumet County Bank and its partners will now be required to commit for seven years, too, and Calumet's original partners balked at the change.

"We are all equally frustrated about the time it takes and the responses we get from banks," Swanson said.

Swanson said the project needs a $2.8 million investment. She said Vetter continues to seek tenants, hoping that will ease bankers' qualms.

Swanson said WHEDA and Calumet County Bank remain committed to the project.

"No bank has said to Calumet you're crazy for doing this," she said.

Jim Blumreich, an authority member, suggested they approach Cities & Villages Mutual Insurance Co., of which the city is a member, about investing in the project.

Also Tuesday, the authority approved refinancing debt on the Pine Street parking ramp. The city owes more than $4 million on a $6 million ramp expansion several years ago. Interest rates on the new bonds will be between 1 percent and 3.7 percent, compared with between 4.8 percent and 5.5 percent now. The new bonds will be state and federal tax-exempt to Wisconsin residents.

Authority members approved the sale of a tower clock in the closed Washington Commons mall to Winona, Miss., for $6,000. Julie Van Oss, city purchasing manager, said that was the best price offered after months of looking for a buyer.

Winona will be responsible for disassembling and moving the large clock that is in the mall's center court.

Authority members also approved $57,427 for renovating the sixth floor of City Hall so that inspection department staff can be moved there from the fourth floor. The inspection department is part of the planning department, which is on the sixth floor.

But the completed CityDeck should help to generate more interest by potential tenants, I would think. It's a good project...momentum now...all in good time...:soon:

Authority members also approved $57,427 for renovating the sixth floor of City Hall so that inspection department staff can be moved there from the fourth floor. The inspection department is part of the planning department, which is on the sixth floor
Too funny, in light of recent discussion!

Did no one get my WaterMark-baguette joke? ROFL at midnight, myself, but I guess you had to be there....

here we go again..

$2.8 million short. What Green Bay could use is a John Bergstrom, the millionaire developer and auto exec in the Fox Cities, to come to the rescue. How about John Hopfensperger of Direct Development? Just a random thought. Probably doesn't make any sense.

What's the latest word on Direct Development anyway? A decade or so ago it undertook major construction and renovation projects on Broadway, Olde Main (where the company is headquartered), Washington Street (Johnson Bank) and elsewhere in Brown County. On Direct Development's website, the last entry in its "Latest News" section is from 2007, when the company broke ground on a $55 million development project in Nashville. It has also worked on major projects in Grafton, Kenosha and Weston outside Wausau and at UW-Milwaukee. From what I understand, if this is correct, Hopfensperger had a falling out with the city.

Below are links for the Nashville project, called Rolling Mill Hill, and the Kenosha project, called HarborPlace.

www.rollingmillhill.com/
www.harborplacekenosha.com/

Well no real surprise about the mess Vetter has created downtown the chance of that funding was slim at best before looks like now you can stick a fork in it. Time to cut our losses with him and start the process all over again. But hey that empty shell of a building and hole in the ground will look great from the boardwalk,

I think what's going on with WaterMark, at least in part, reflects what's going on nationally. People don't appreciate how close the banking system came to collapsing last year. So banks today, I think, are hanging on to cash and regulators are more careful. And many banks still have bad loans on the books. Some 120 banks have failed this year so far, the most since 1992 and the savings-and-loan crisis. More are expected to fold next year. So projects like Festival Foods move ahead, but projects like WaterMark remain stuck.

I think what's going on with WaterMark, at least in part, reflects what's going on nationally. People don't appreciate how close the banking system came to collapsing last year. So banks today, I think, are hanging on to cash and regulators are more careful. And many banks still have bad loans on the books. Some 120 banks have failed this year so far, the most since 1992 and the savings-and-loan crisis. More are expected to fold next year. So projects like Festival Foods move ahead, but projects like WaterMark remain stuck.

You're absolutely right. Here in the San Francisco Bay Area there is a suburb near San Jose called Sunnyvale. Sunnyvale is a little larger than Green Bay with a population of around 130,000. In the 70's they did the same thing as Green Bay and built a mall over their downtown street grid. And just like Green Bay, the mall eventually failed. Now they are putting the street grid back through to compliment the existing Target and Macy's that are still there. As part of the redevelopment efforts they were putting in mixed use development, which just like Green Bay, has stalled and is sitting half finished due to the banking crisis.

http://www.mercurynews.com/search/ci_13570094?IADID=Search-www.mercurynews.com-www.mercurynews.com


Preservation is next step for Sunnyvale Town Center
By Tiffany Carney


Sunnyvale Sun

Posted: 10/15/2009 02:44:06 PM PDT
Updated: 10/15/2009 02:44:07 PM PDT


As the Sunnyvale Town Center redevelopment project moves through foreclosure, decisions regarding preservation of the site will fall on the shoulders of Jerry Hunt and the Quattro Realty Group, the receivers as appointed by the Santa Clara County Superior Court Oct. 5.

The move comes after Wachovia, which financed the project for Sunnyvale Downtown Mixed Use, LLC, a collaborative between RREEF and Sand Hill Property Co., filed for judicial foreclosure Sept. 25.

According to city manager Gary Leubbers, "the receiver has the authority to take certain actions to protect and preserve the value of the project." The receiver could be thought of as an interim manager during the legal process for the project, which is 40 percent completed. Quattro's responsibilities will include creating a plan to secure and protect the site from winter weather.

During this time, Wachovia has the power to authorize cash advances for project work and will oversee all decisions made for the site.

Wilson Meany Sullivan, responsible for the San Francisco Ferry Building project and Federal Realty Investment Trust that includes San Jose's Santana Row, were also brought in to advise Wachovia on a plan for the site.

These actions are a direct result of construction being halted Feb. 24 on the six-block, downtown project after developers failed to secure funding, once estimated at $750 million.

During and Oct. 6 Sunnyvale City Council meeting, Leubbers said that Wachovia plans to work with Devcon Construction Inc., the general contractor, "to fund the improvements that are needed to secure the project." Bank representatives, city staff and advisers were scheduled to walk the site Oct. 7 to determine what needs to be done with regard to the appearance, weatherization and security of the property, Leubbers said.

Until foreclosure proceedings are complete, Wachovia remains the financier and RREEF retains ownership of the property.

Well no real surprise about the mess Vetter has created downtown the chance of that funding was slim at best before looks like now you can stick a fork in it. Time to cut our losses with him and start the process all over again. But hey that empty shell of a building and hole in the ground will look great from the boardwalk,

It's not like developers are lined up waiting for a piece of the downtown. I wish that was the case. Given our choices I think Vetter is contributing quite a bit.

I'm more irritated with the Mayor for consistently making promises about groundbreaking dates on various project, only have them to fall through time after time.

John Hopfensberger went bankrupt and lost virtually all of his buildings in town. He mostly lives down South now. DD has no staff in town, except for one guy who is ineffectually trying to sell off what remains of John's holdings.

...........whoa........looks like the WaterMark may be a long long long way off, if ever.............I've been thinking of maybe moving over to Rivers Edge Apt. before next summer, temporarily...and watch how the WaterMark goes.

Anyone on this site know anyone who has lived there? If so...got any comments?

I saw a pretty funny entry on an Apartment Rating Site regarding a former occupant's experience living at the Rivers Edge. It was the only entry I found and I quote. "the worst experience of my life....I will never go back".....
...what doya suppose that means hey!?

I don't know the history--am trying to be a quick study after buying my house in the Broadway District a few years ago--But what puzzles me is that the civic aspects of the WaterMark project do not seem to be being capitalized on. Times are tough, unemployment is bad, but the stock market is in good shape, having recovered its losses this year. Least touched among the possible sectors for cash are those with deep pockets and old-fashioned convictions about the civic responsibilities to give back to the community. That is one of the aspects of Green Bay culture that especially impresses me, and the nature of my work here keeps it constantly in front of me.

Perhaps someone here is closer to it, but--Why is this the "Green Bay" Children's Museum? I am not sure how the package is structured, in terms of the building of the Children's Museum as part of WaterMark--but that's where the money shake-up needs to be focused. However the arrangement is currently structured, it could be restructured given this glitch in funding. Even statistically, the most easily raised charitable-giving funds are those for veteran's projects and children's projects. There are several patrons of the arts in Green Bay I could mention--their names are on numerous buildings on the campuses and libraries in the Green Bay area. Let's give that Children's Museum a name!

I live in RE. A great place to live.


EDIT: Was going to add some things but I am late and need to run but you got the gist of it. :)

Farmers Market is crawling with babes. ;)

Thanks, Chicago......I would really rather get a Top Floor highrise overlooking Navy Pier.....but........guess I'll give RE a try..........I am looking for a hottie though....guess I'll have to try farmers market..............

I am going to turn in my application at RE this weekend maybe but I am trying to hold out for 3rd floor waterfront........not much chance I have heard.......thanks!

...........whoa........looks like the WaterMark may be a long long long way off, if ever.............I've been thinking of maybe moving over to Rivers Edge Apt. before next summer, temporarily...and watch how the WaterMark goes.

Anyone on this site know anyone who has lived there? If so...got any comments?

I saw a pretty funny entry on an Apartment Rating Site regarding a former occupant's experience living at the Rivers Edge. It was the only entry I found and I quote. "the worst experience of my life....I will never go back".....
...what doya suppose that means hey!?

When they were trying to get renters during the open houses they signed up a number of people from APAC and other downtown businesses... I've heard some horror stories...

Cheap construction - windows do not open or once open will not close... you can hear the water running all the neighboring apartments... also not well insulated... guess they figured the tall buildings "next door" would help block the wind... since there are no other buildings there... the wind whips through the walls "whistling like and old drafty house" is how one friend put it.

I would avoid it like H1N1... lol

Try the apartments across the river before going to the River's Edge...

John Hopfensberger went bankrupt and lost virtually all of his buildings in town. He mostly lives down South now. DD has no staff in town, except for one guy who is ineffectually trying to sell off what remains of John's holdings.

I'm stunned. Had no idea. He was once Green Bay's young, up-and-coming developer. Below are downtown buildings he constructed, worked on or renovated in Green Bay.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/BroadwayDist9_md.jpghttp://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/BroadwayDist6_md.jpghttp://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/BroadwayDist4_md.jpghttp://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/BroadwayDist1_lg.jpghttp://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/jorgenson1_lg.jpghttp://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/JohnsonBank1_lg.jpghttp://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/MainSt2_lg.jpghttp://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/OldeTownCrossing_lg.jpghttp://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/MainSt3_lg.jpg

I look forward to seeing Hobart's future 600 acre village center w/ an old European theme of a downtown. It is just getting started w/ development.


http://www.hobart-wi.org/aerial%20_rendering_121508.pdf

You're absolutely right. Here in the San Francisco Bay Area there is a suburb near San Jose called Sunnyvale. Sunnyvale is a little larger than Green Bay with a population of around 130,000. In the 70's they did the same thing as Green Bay and built a mall over their downtown street grid. And just like Green Bay, the mall eventually failed. Now they are putting the street grid back through to compliment the existing Target and Macy's that are still there. As part of the redevelopment efforts they were putting in mixed use development, which just like Green Bay, has stalled and is sitting half finished due to the banking crisis.

Very interesting. Green Bay should be so lucky as to have a Macy's or a Target downtown to work with.

Regarding Watermark: In the long run I think the downtown is better off for Vetter's having worked here, principally because he brought Chris Reed and the CityDeck concept here. Hopefully the Watermark can get going, but I'm fully in I'll-believe-it-when-I-see-it mode. This is getting old. I realize it's a tough go right now and everything, but it just sucks to hear "It's just about to start" over and over again. It's not so much the delays that bug me, it's the continual stating of timelines that have little basis in reality.

Regarding that Hobart plan. I mean, I guess it could be nice, but it isn't really urban at all, at least not in any traditional sense. Cities don't grow up with a neat little area of residential here, and a neat little area of commercial there. It reminds me of the retirement community in Arizona where my grandparents lived, a totally planned community. That's fine, it is what it is, and that's probably better than a normal suburb and on that scale it may work. I actually loved the community my Grandparents lived in. A lot will depend on what grows around it over time. Then again, it also reminds me of Brasilia, which is not exactly a wildly successful model. But then again, this isn't on a scale anything like Brasilia. I guess what I'm saying in a really rambling way is that this plan is less "old European" and more "modernist utopian."

Perhaps someone here is closer to it, but--Why is this the "Green Bay" Children's Museum? I am not sure how the package is structured, in terms of the building of the Children's Museum as part of WaterMark--but that's where the money shake-up needs to be focused. However the arrangement is currently structured, it could be restructured given this glitch in funding. Even statistically, the most easily raised charitable-giving funds are those for veteran's projects and children's projects. There are several patrons of the arts in Green Bay I could mention--their names are on numerous buildings on the campuses and libraries in the Green Bay area. Let's give that Children's Museum a name!

I'm not sure that naming rights for the entire museum are available (not sure they aren't either), but for sure the major exhibits and major features of the museum can be named for significant donations, and I'd bet if someone came up with enough cash they'd name the whole thing accordingly.

Cheap construction - windows do not open or once open will not close... you can hear the water running all the neighboring apartments... also not well insulated... guess they figured the tall buildings "next door" would help block the wind... since there are no other buildings there... the wind whips through the walls "whistling like and old drafty house" is how one friend put it.

I would avoid it like H1N1... lol

Try the apartments across the river before going to the River's Edge...

Which apartments are you referring to? River's Edge are on the west side, the suburban-type apartments. The complaints you mention sound more like what some people have said regarding the Flats on the Fox that were created from the north end of Prange's

So, sometime ago Kramerica and I came up with the two "trolley" lines, which we posted here. I stand by those lines. The lines served not only the downtown, but also the Bellin/St. Vincent hospital complex, Bay Beach and Joannes, several near-downtown neighborhoods, and lots of jobs including those downtown and the industrial area long the Fox west of Webster. If I'm not mistaken, Puant used his super powers to determine that something like 10,000 to 15,000 people lived with a readily walkable distance of the lines. I think the key idea here is that these neighborhoods were historically served by trolleys, and there's enough density there to make it work with two pretty small lines in terms of mileage. Doing so would create a walkable central city with a wide range of jobs, housing types, and services available.

Anyway, while I was in Portland and using their transit, one thing really struck me: the difference quality stations can make. While I was in Seattle riding on some of their express busses another thing struck me: there's nothing magical about tracks in the ground.

Taking that second point first, you need to have the right buses, with accessible entrances and level floors (I'm guessing there's a term for this, but I'm referring to buses where you don't step up when you enter). The buses in Seattle are hybrid powered, and as such somewhat more quiet. They are clean and comfortable. There's really not practical way in which they are inferior to a light rail setup except for that each bus holds fewer people (though not fewer than a trolley car), but the riding experience isn't any worse. The experience reinforced my belief that there's little advantage in rail unless A) there rider volume is very high, and/or B) you are routing the line in such a way that it goes off established roads. One other purported advantage to rail is that it establishes permanence, so that people see where the line is and feel comfortable knowing it will be around for a while, and thus are more willing to invest in being near it. That argument leads me to:

I was blown away by the light rail stations in Portland. They weren't overly complex or anything, but they were really nice, really nicely lit, visible from a distance, functional, and I felt they gave a sense of safety. I think a line with nice buses, proper signs and markings on the road, and really high quality stations could be efficient and cost effective. I think the quality of the stations would address the feeling of permanence while still allowing the flexibility of a bus. Some images:

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/downtownVital/portland1.jpg
I loved these stations. The lighting was great and really made the stations into beacons. This one is a light rail stop, but the bus stops along this stretch were the same.

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/downtownVital/portland2.jpg
This one's a bus stop. You can see the vertical sign showing the lines served by the stop, and the back-lit route map which is a really useful addition.

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/downtownVital/portland3.jpg
This is for the light rail, but shows what I'd use for the downtown loop: off-vehicle ticketing. It makes boarding much quicker, and allows for more ticketing options and payment methods. Also note the screen above which lists arrival times for coming trains. The bus stops in this area use the exact same screens. I think these are a really vital feature.

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/downtownVital/portland4.jpg
This is just a different style station. Not quite as nice for me, but still very good. Note the LED sign at the top, not quite as slick a way of showing the arrival time of the next vehicle, but I'm sure more cost effective.

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/downtownVital/portland5.jpg
A nice public art detail. The stations along the line all had mosaic sections like this, but with different designs at each station. I thought this was a really nice addition.

I think if you do the stations right, and invest there, you can really save on laying down miles of track while achieving a comparable rider experience. I'm not saying this is going to happen here any time soon, but I think it should. In fact I think enough of this way of doing things that I'd advocate for a system like this in Milwaukee over a tracked system if it allowed for more service. Beyond the great stations I'd advocate for a set of buses that's visually distinct from the standard buses that cover longer routes. They key to all of this is having lead times less than 15 minutes. A project I want to undertake is to drive the loops we've suggested to find out about how long it would take for one vehicle to make the loop stopping at probable stops.

Finally, I'd make this a modern system. The idea isn't to make this cute, or to make it attract tourists. We'd want tourists to use the system, but the bread-and-butter of the system is the residents of the area served by it. Modern vehicles have efficiency and accessibility advantages over older vehicles and present a more forward-thinking image.

There are only so many things a city can do to improve declining areas, but one of them is transportation. A system like this brings value to the neighborhoods it serves. It allows people to become more mobile. Too often cities make a mistake by isolating poor areas, and I think we have a chance to invest in our poorest areas before they get very bad. It's not some sort of magic bullet and I don't want to overstate the point, but I do think something like this would be an important tool that would be good for the downtown and make unique residential areas that have a type of value that can't be replicated in sprawl developments.

Continuing this conversation I'm having with myself here, I've created a CityDeck development thread and posted some photos from last weekend:


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=46125147#post46125147 (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=46125147#post46125147)

As an aside, I saw several people out checking out the progress, and I also saw a guy walking back east across the river carrying several bags of food from Save-A-Lot, so it does happen.

I'm not going to give a lot of detail, but let me just say that there is something really exciting coming soon to a Green Bay Metro Transit system near you! I'd say by early next year there will be something in place that should really increase customer service and probably result in increased ridership as well. That's all I'm going to say for now.

So, sometime ago Kramerica and I came up with the two "trolley" lines, which we posted here. I stand by those lines. The lines served not only the downtown, but also the Bellin/St. Vincent hospital complex, Bay Beach and Joannes, several near-downtown neighborhoods, and lots of jobs including those downtown and the industrial area long the Fox west of Webster. If I'm not mistaken, Puant used his super powers to determine that something like 10,000 to 15,000 people lived with a readily walkable distance of the lines. I think the key idea here is that these neighborhoods were historically served by trolleys, and there's enough density there to make it work with two pretty small lines in terms of mileage. Doing so would create a walkable central city with a wide range of jobs, housing types, and services available.

Yep, Here was my analysis (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=29811824&postcount=2645)on that. Surprising isn't it? (not that I have super powers but rather how many people live near these loops).

Anyway, while I was in Portland and using their transit, one thing really struck me: the difference quality stations can make. While I was in Seattle riding on some of their express busses another thing struck me: there's nothing magical about tracks in the ground.

I might kinda disagree with your last part of this but I'll go along with it for now because Green Bay wouldn't do something so radical as invest in a trolley system in a million years anyway.... It would never work here...well, except for 80 years ago when GB had a wildly popular trolley system...

A project I want to undertake is to drive the loops we've suggested to find out about how long it would take for one vehicle to make the loop stopping at probable stops.

I actually did this a little bit... Afterwards I was thinking holy crap! would a loop like this proposed by Danillo and Kramerica (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?client=firefox-a&hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=105417852065100541309.00045e7ad1026e5963a0c&ll=44.510646,-88.003578&spn=0.039418,0.095873&t=h&z=14)increase frequency and reliability of service for people who want to easily jump around downtown on both sides of the river!
You definitely should explore this some more!


There are only so many things a city can do to improve declining areas, but one of them is transportation. A system like this brings value to the neighborhoods it serves. It allows people to become more mobile. Too often cities make a mistake by isolating poor areas, and I think we have a chance to invest in our poorest areas before they get very bad. It's not some sort of magic bullet and I don't want to overstate the point, but I do think something like this would be an important tool that would be good for the downtown and make unique residential areas that have a type of value that can't be replicated in sprawl developments.

One thing to always keep in mind is that the transportation system put in place is going to be the de-facto land use policy. In my mind, if we want the type of downtown that I think we all wish for, the ONLY way we're going to see it (really, the ONLY way) is to encourage more use of public transportation. I argue for trolleys or streetcars, you can argue that busses can do the same thing, but either way regardless, we're not going to get anywhere close to what we want if people keep coming primarily in single-occupied automobiles that require huge areas of parking. How do we make public transportaiton more effective and more attractive? Danillo has some ideas and I have some of my own and we've both been quite outspoken on this. Anyone else have any other ideas? I'd love to hear ideas from everyone on this. GBM too!

Danillo-- thanks for sharing your experience & pics from Portland.

from today's press-gazette.

I really don't get this. In my mind, that interchange with the on ramp from Velp & the 41-43 ramp, it's one of the worst areas on 41 (in brown county) when traffic is heavy. You literally have about 1/8th mile to get into the right lane while trying to dodge traffic coming up in that right lane..

Interstate status may hinge on 41/43 ramp in Howard
Connection isn't in budget, part of environmental study
By Malavika Jagannathan • mjaganna@greenbaypressgazette.com • November 13, 2009




Eliminating the ramp connecting northbound U.S. 41 to Interstate 43 in Howard may not be part of the state's massive reconstruction project on U.S. 41.

"That segment of the project is currently being studied through an environmental impact standpoint, how what we will build will effect businesses and the environment," said Kris Schuller, communications manager for the U.S. 41 project.

In 2005, federal legislation authorized funding to Wisconsin to upgrade U.S. 41 between Milwaukee and Green Bay to meet interstate standards, allowing for the $1.5 billion expansion of U.S. 41 scheduled to begin next year in Brown County.

That budget, of which $937 million is being spent in Brown County, includes all the construction except for the I-43 ramp because, Schuller says, the DOT isn't sure what it's going to do there. It hasn't ruled out converting the ramp to a free-flow systems interchange — where traffic does not have to slow down to get from one highway to the other — but the outcome depends on the study being conducted and whether funding is available.

The exclusion of the ramp from the project, however, could affect that portion of U.S. 41's eventual interstate designation.

The village of Howard will consider approving a letter at its next board meeting that outlines its concerns about excluding the ramp that will be sent to the governor, the state and local department of transportation offices, village Administrator Joshua Smith said. Several Brown County municipalities have adopted a joint resolution endorsing the reclassification of U.S 41 to Interstate 55 if interstate designation occurs in the future.

"If we don't get that designation, it would be another big strike to the Green Bay area," Smith said. "Even if you remove the economic development concerns, there's enough accident information at that intersection to warrant a change."

Crash statistics on the ramp from U.S. 41 to I-43 are higher than the state average and updating the interchange would improve the safety of the ramp, Schuller said.

"It's not out of the question … it was always our hope to convert it to the systems interchange," Schuller said. "When it comes to that interchange we can't say what we're going to do until the study is completed."

^^ Wait, so wisdot doesn't know for sure what is going to happen at the US41/I43 interchange? I thought the plans were final, since plans are posted on the website. But i just want to clarify that this is the main ramp from NORTHBOUND 41 to SOUTHBOUND 43? And not the ramp from VELP to NORTHBOUND 41? Or is the uncertainty about whether to allow connection from Velp to I43?

I didnt know this 41 project is going to cost $1.5 billion expansion of U.S. 41 scheduled to begin next year in Brown County.

And personally I hope 41 is not renamed 55. It should stay as 41 but as interstate 41 to fit between interstates 39 to the west and 43 to the east.
A renaming to I-55 will screw up the mile markers on the route. And a renaming to I-55 means extra costs to at the signage south of Milwaukee to I-55 as well, whereas if US41 is renamed I-41, only the route signage north of Milwaukee should be changed, saving costs.

Tracks vs no tracks
Yea i like tracks, they bring a sense of direction and security as to not go off route.

^^ Wait, so wisdot doesn't know for sure what is going to happen at the US41/I43 interchange? I thought the plans were final, since plans are posted on the website. But i just want to clarify that this is the main ramp from NORTHBOUND 41 to SOUTHBOUND 43? And not the ramp from VELP to NORTHBOUND 41? Or is the uncertainty about whether to allow connection from Velp to I43?

I didnt know this 41 project is going to cost

And personally I hope 41 is not renamed 55. It should stay as 41 but as interstate 41 to fit between interstates 39 to the west and 43 to the east.
A renaming to I-55 will screw up the mile markers on the route. And a renaming to I-55 means extra costs to at the signage south of Milwaukee to I-55 as well, whereas if US41 is renamed I-41, only the route signage north of Milwaukee should be changed, saving costs.

Tracks vs no tracks
Yea i like tracks, they bring a sense of direction and security as to not go off route.

I thought the plans were finalized too. As for the Velp to 41N, I would think that it would have to be included in the plan. From what I remember, the 41N-43S interchange was a high-rise, with the Velp-41N on-ramp traveling under.

And personally I hope 41 is not renamed 55. It should stay as 41 but as interstate 41 to fit between interstates 39 to the west and 43 to the east. A renaming to I-55 will screw up the mile markers on the route. And a renaming to I-55 means extra costs to at the signage south of Milwaukee to I-55 as well, whereas if US41 is renamed I-41, only the route signage north of Milwaukee should be changed, saving costs.

Those are good points about the signage. But, besides potentially extra funding, what's the point of renaming US41 to I-41 at all if it's to only run from Milwaukee to Green Bay? I-55 would put Green Bay and the Fox Cities on a major interstate route including such major cities as New Orleans, Memphis, St. Louis and Chicago.

repost

^^ I-55 ends in Chicago, and Illinois has no plans to extend northward to the border, thus everyone sees that I-55 ends in Chicago, always has, so making a gap in I-55 if Wisconsin adds the I-55 number won't put this area on the map. In otherwords there is no difference of picking up a freeway north of Milwaukee when a certain numbered freeway ended 80 miles to the south.

Secondly, the area is pretty well "known" nowadays.

Third, Green Bay is already on I-43, an interstate, making US41 an interstate no matter which number just makes Green Bay on 2 interstates.

Fourth, US 41 goes from Miami, Florida to WAY UP NORT in dose neckadawoods in Michigan, US 41 is just as widely known as I-55, and in some cases legendary.

Fifth, like I said before, I-41 fits between I-39 and I-43, people recognize the interstate system pattern as well.

^^ I-55 ends in Chicago, and Illinois has no plans to extend northward to the border, thus everyone sees that I-55 ends in Chicago, always has, so making a gap in I-55 if Wisconsin adds the I-55 number won't put this area on the map. In otherwords there is no difference of picking up a freeway north of Milwaukee when a certain numbered freeway ended 80 miles to the south.

Secondly, the area is pretty well "known" nowadays.

Third, Green Bay is already on I-43, an interstate, making US41 an interstate no matter which number just makes Green Bay on 2 interstates.

Fourth, US 41 goes from Miami, Florida to WAY UP NORT in dose neckadawoods in Michigan, US 41 is just as widely known as I-55, and in some cases legendary.

Fifth, like I said before, I-41 fits between I-39 and I-43, people recognize the interstate system pattern as well.

Good points. Although I would differ on point 4 as US41 and I-41 would be considered as different highways as US highway and Interstate highways are geographically designated differently.

Great pictures, thanks for giving us a look. Look at that transparent overhang on the bus/train stop! Incredible how those light bars are integrated. And the nice styling on the seating, transparent and with no benches to curl up on.

Accessible bus where you don’t step up=low floor bus. Some are also kneeling buses.

About Green Bay, that plan looks great! I wonder, though, there’s greater density to serve west of Broadway than in Astor Park…but I see the route services the hospitals.

What have other similarly-sized cities done, I wonder? When I think about transportation in comparably-sized cities where I visit or have lived, I more readily think of improvements to structural aspects of walkability, or bike system improvements, like Eugene, OR or Boulder, CO. It’s too bad we seem to have to look pre WWII for light rail or wheeled trolley systems in smaller cities. But there are ample examples from back then.

With the stations/stops in Portland and Seattle, one influence that makes shelter essential and expected is the constant rain. (In the pic, aren’t those bright light bars for Seasonal Affective Disorder? ;) ) Another factor is the low to non-existent snow load, giving some flexibility for lighter construction and, I would guess, a freer hand in the use of open and transparent materials--clean urban styling and good light and a feeling of greater safety. No obscured corners to get backed into where no one can see you.

Nice mosaics! High quality public art: can’t say enough about the importance of that in revitalizing a community! And texturing the platform/sidewalk, the dyed and stamped cobblestone look. Practical and aesthetic. A low cost/high return investment.

Portland’s a “small” big city, too--remarkable achievement for its size.

Nice central Greyhound station in Portland, too, and next door, the beautiful renovated train station, a historic gem. Rich, high-backed wooden benches, marble floors, high ornamental ceilings with period lighting in a grand style, dignified dark oak ticket counter, lots of brass. It's often a venue for films. I once lingered too long getting my crap together before offboarding, so I guess I missed being escorted through side doors. When I finally pushed through the main station doors from the tracks, I walked onto a movie set with cameras rolling. (Why are all these people wearing ’40s clothes?… and what’s with all these bright lights… and isn’t that Marlee Matlin?!?) :nuts:

http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt133/marseilles_bucket/600px-UnionStationIDPano.jpg
Renovated Union Station, Portland

The bus stops in this area use the exact same screens. I think these are a really vital feature.

That reader board tracking is real time, like airport arrival/departure screens--the system uses GPS and track sensors to tell you when the bus/train is really coming, not when it’s supposed to come. You have real time tracking on the website too and the software is openly shared, another innovation, so businesses can disseminate it. You can even get apps for it on your mobile now, Opera browser, etc. So you aren’t tethered to the bus stop. Instead you can frequent the merchants or restaurants, grab a slice, or some dolmas and a shot of ouzo at the Greek Cusina.:cheers:

I see your point Danillo about the difference quality stations make. That, and whatever human resources program it is that they developed in Portland to establish a culture and practice of courtesy and cheerfulness among the drivers.

Only mistep was outsourcing the on-board fare-checking--those ticket machines don’t always work, and the choice as the train rushes up is to wait another half hour or more while you hunt up a working machine, or get to work or home on time and hope you aren’t fined by the random fare-checker personnel. Guess which you choose…. And the fare-checkers can be more rude than professional, so that reverses some gains on the PR front.

But the machines are an essential solution, very efficient, and also helps make the system your own, instead of seeming to be the fiefdom of the train/bus operators--helps to engender a personal sense of ownership among riders. It’s amazing how important those subtleties can be. It’s all about the buy-in… The only thing I’ve seen that trumps Portland on the we’re-all-in-this-together strategy is in SF, when the cable car driver gets almost to the top of a hill, slows down the trolley, stops, then talks everyone into getting off and pushing--“if we just gave it a little boost…” I know I put my shoulder to it, the first time.

A renaming to I-55 will screw up the mile markers on the route.

Actually the opposite. Current US 41 mile markers are based on the distance from the Illinois state line. Numbers under 47 are not marked from northwest Milwaukee south where it is a local street in Milwaukee, then the numbers are superseded by I-94 markers where they are joined. If it becomes I-55 or I-57 from Illinois, the numbering would be the same, while starting I-41 from the Zoo Interchange in Milwaukee would need new markers with numbers about 38 lower than they are now.

For the debate of I-55 vs I-57 itself, their current endings in Chicago makes I-57 a lot more political feasible possibility.

For I-41, that would make more geographical sense keeping the numbers in order, but the Interstate numbering system strongly discourages a US and Interstate route having the same number in the same state. There are exceptions such as US 24 in northern Illinois and I-24 in southern Illinois, then the recent eastward expansion of I-74 to North Carolina puts it in the same route as US 74 for a bit in NC. They could make a similar exception here but that has to be kept in mind.

Which apartments are you referring to? River's Edge are on the west side, the suburban-type apartments. The complaints you mention sound more like what some people have said regarding the Flats on the Fox that were created from the north end of Prange's

Oops... I went back and reread the original post and my reply... I was confused and did mix up the two apartments...

Though the end sentence to check out the apartments on the waterfront on the west side are accurate... LOL ironically those ARE the River's Edge Apartments

I have several friends living there and Jesse and his staff maintain the complex well.

Continuing this conversation I'm having with myself here

I enjoy your conversations, solitary or not. I think sometimes people are so fascinated by what you have to say, they're stunned into silence....And thanks for the terrific CityDeck photos. Another new CityDeck photo at Packerland Annals.

I'm not going to give a lot of detail, but let me just say that there is something really exciting coming soon to a Green Bay Metro Transit system near you! I'd say by early next year there will be something in place that should really increase customer service and probably result in increased ridership as well. That's all I'm going to say for now.

Another Puant exclusive. I remember sometime around late last summer or so, you said something would be happening soon with the Bullfrogs. You were right. Then there was your exclusive render of the proposed Walnut/Washington building. I'll take a guess on this one: funding/building okayed for the Ashwaubenon transit center? Naw, too soon for that.

from today's press-gazette.

I really don't get this. In my mind, that interchange with the on ramp from Velp & the 41-43 ramp, it's one of the worst areas on 41 (in brown county) when traffic is heavy. You literally have about 1/8th mile to get into the right lane while trying to dodge traffic coming up in that right lane.

Neither do I quite get it. Perhaps the story is saying there's an issue with the environmental impact assessment for that interchange — because it's in a marshy area. Just guessing, but maybe the presence of the marshland means the state isn't able to use as much land as it wanted for the new, free-flowing, 41/43 interchange that was projected to be built there. It sounds like if the state has to use the current configuration for the interchange when 41 is rebuilt, it might not be able to upgrade 41 eventually to Interstate status because that interchange wouldn't meet Interstate standards. I'm sure there'll be follow-ups to this report down the road.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/main.jpg

The new ACE Marine downtown has delivered three new boats to the Coast Guard, with more on the way. Expects eventually to build 15-18 CG boats a year. Its current contract with the Guard calls for 90 boats total. Above is a photo of the type of boat, I think, they're building here, called a Response Boat-Medium. The photo was taken downtown on the Fox. Clearly, the Guard's in violation of the no-wake zone. By the way, there hasn't been a boatbuilder or shipbuilder in downtown Green Bay since around World War I. I'll be posting a photo on that sometime in the future when I can get it scanned.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091110/GPG03/911100516/-1/archive

Below is a photo of the rotunda of the Green Bay Correctional Institution in Allouez. It's part of the Press-Gazette's terrific ongoing series on local architecture. GBCI was originally built some 110 years ago, on the site of what had been a bicycle factory, as the Wisconsin State Reformatory. It's on the National Register of Historic Places.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091111/GPG04/911110647/-1/archive

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde-39-1.jpg

Here's my take on the trolleys:

1. Like Puant, I also believe there IS something magical about rails. A. People like rail and are much more willing to try it than a bus. B. Rail is much more permanent and that will help spur on development. (Although in the Milwaukee thread there was a post about how the bus routes are pretty much the same as they were 50 years ago; route number, streets used, etc.) C. Due to point A, ridership will be higher with rail and hopefully that will give it less of a chance of being seen as a "failure". We have to be very careful with the first steps up from just standard buses (be it a rail trolley or Danillo's bus trolley) because if the first step fails (or has the appearance of failure) then any future upgrades will have a diminished chance of happening. All that being said, there is a legitimate argument to be made that the lower costs offset these negatives.

2. Modern trolleys (or streetcars if you prefer that terminology) would be the way to go, versus historical trolleys. Modern trolleys will offer the best options, comfort, and amenities for the users. New Orleans has historical streetcars, but that works for them because they are used in the historical way they have always been used there, and they've been used there continuously for a long, long time.

3. Off-vehicle payments are probably the way to go. Danillo had an experience in Seattle where he had to wait 10+ minutes on an express bus at a station because some a large group didn't know what the heck they were doing in terms of payment on the bus. Plus if people are paying on the vehicle, that takes some extra time even if they do it right. But going back to the New Orleans streetcars, they have on-vehicle payments and it works well. But the difference is that in New Orleans you can only pay with cash or with a pass that gets shown to the driver and not scanned in. So those are two simple ways of payment that are very hard to screw up and slow things down with. The more complex type of passes you have (10-punch, monthly, 3-day, transfers, etc) the more chances of people getting confused.

4. I think all transit should be fare-free. A. you save all the money spent on fare collection, such as the machines, the machine maintenance, the people to physically collect the money from the machines, and all the accountants to keep track of all the revenue. I'd say that's probably 10-20% of fares anyway. B. It removes a barrier to using transit. It'll get more people to use transit, which is good in that it is more efficient and will decrease congestion. C. Transit fares are regressive in that they impact the poor more than the middle class. Eliminating fares will put more money into the pockets of those who really need it. It might also be the difference in allowing some people to seek work in farther-out areas from their home, and that's good for our economy overall.

Go Green Bay Trolley!

For I-41, that would make more geographical sense keeping the numbers in order, but the Interstate numbering system strongly discourages a US and Interstate route having the same number in the same state. There are exceptions such as US 24 in northern Illinois and I-24 in southern Illinois, then the recent eastward expansion of I-74 to North Carolina puts it in the same route as US 74 for a bit in NC. They could make a similar exception here but that has to be kept in mind.

I think if you're going to "upgrade" US 41 to an Interstate, I-41 is the best choice. People know the highway as 41, so why fight that? Plus 41 does fit the numbering scheme between 39 and 43.

As for the discouragement of two different highway classes having the same number within a state, I think this would fall into the US/I-74 category. In NC those two designations are used for the same corridor, so there is not any confusion to be had. In IL, the two 24's are deemed to be far enough apart to not be confusing, plus I-24 is fairly short in IL. In Wisconsin, there are two 39's: I-39 running north-south in the middle of the state, and STH-39 in the southwest going through Mineral Point. In that case, STH-39 was deemed to be a minor highway and not really a cause for confusion.

But if US 41 was to be tagged as an extension of I-55 or I-57 from Chicago, that would mean renumbering our existing STH 55 or STH 57. Both are major highways that parallel US 41 fairly close and would be a source of confusion. So using those numbers would add to the cost of re-signing and to the societal cost of having to learn new numbers.

The one major advantage of running one of those Interstate designations up I-94 to Milwaukee from Chicago would be that there would be Interstate signs with "North" and "South" on them. I think it is somewhat confusing for some people to have I-94 be an east-west signed highway that runs due north and south.

Those are good points about the signage. But, besides potentially extra funding, what's the point of renaming US41 to I-41 at all if it's to only run from Milwaukee to Green Bay?

The bottom line is there is no point to "upgrade" US 41 to an Interstate at all. The funding difference is minimal. The other major reason people point to is the Interstate "brand" is what businesses look for. Maybe there are a small number of businesses that care about the Interstate "brand", but those are dumb businesses. Any business worth its salt will know that the important thing is having a relatively congestion-free, high-speed highway nearby, and it doesn't matter if it is I-43, US 41, or STH 29. From a business' standpoint, they all are great highways to get their product to market. So I don't see why we need to spend a penny to re-sign all these highways and confuse people.

Wait, so wisdot doesn't know for sure what is going to happen at the US41/I43 interchange? I thought the plans were final, since plans are posted on the website.

I didnt know this 41 project is going to cost $1.5 billion.

I thought the plans were pretty well set, too. The website (click here for maps) (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/us41expansion/brown-int.htm#4114143) sure seems to indicate that is the case.

As for the cost, the last time I read something, I'm pretty sure the cost for the US 41 projects in both Brown and Winnebago counties COMBINED was going to be $1 billion. (Originally when the two projects were up for enumeration (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/business/econdev/highway-major.htm) from the TPC and Legislature (in the early 2000's), I am pretty sure each project was supposed to cost about $250 million.

Too bad we can't hide $10 million in there for the Green Bay Trolley.

Neither do I quite get it. Perhaps the story is saying there's an issue with the environmental impact assessment for that interchange — because it's in a marshy area. Just guessing, but maybe the presence of the marshland means the state isn't able to use as much land as it wanted for the new, free-flowing, 41/43 interchange that was projected to be built there. It sounds like if the state has to use the current configuration for the interchange when 41 is rebuilt, it might not be able to upgrade 41 eventually to Interstate status because that interchange wouldn't meet Interstate standards. I'm sure there'll be follow-ups to this report down the road.

The original I-43 / US 41 interchange was built as it was for a few reasons: A. Minimize wetland impacts. B. Provide access to I-43 from Velp @ 41. C. Not have to build expensive braided ramps. So based on all of that they came up with the current bad design. Although I will say it sure is a fun ramp to use if there is no one in front of you!

The new design (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/us41expansion/docs/brown-i43south-int.pdf) eliminates direct access from Velp @ 41 to I-43. If you're on Velp and want to go south on I-43, you should just be using the Atkinson Drive interchange. The new design also incorporates the braided ramps to eliminate weaving between the Velp and I-43 interchange ramps along US 41.

I'm not going to give a lot of detail, but let me just say that there is something really exciting coming soon to a Green Bay Metro Transit system near you! I'd say by early next year there will be something in place that should really increase customer service and probably result in increased ridership as well. That's all I'm going to say for now.

WIFI?

Just a guess. I see lots of ipod touches being used on the bus. I use one myself,it would be nice to be able to go online w/ an ipod rather than having to own a $90/mo iphone that doesn't work anyway because ATT's GB network is junk.

I doubt it,WIFI is something you'd see in Philly or Seattle...not GB. Greyhound has started to add it so it can be done. Put a Verizon MIFI in each bus and up to 5 people can use wifi off of VZW's EVDO data network.

Eh,likely too expensive. But..if they sold a $10 monthly 'pass' that allowed you to log on I would buy it....probably.



I'm racking my brain and I can't think anything else besides the 2nd hub.

They have new buses...have bike racks...hmmmm. I wonder what it is. :banana:

^^ I-55 ends in Chicago, and Illinois has no plans to extend northward to the border, thus everyone sees that I-55 ends in Chicago, always has, so making a gap in I-55 if Wisconsin adds the I-55 number won't put this area on the map. In otherwords there is no difference of picking up a freeway north of Milwaukee when a certain numbered freeway ended 80 miles to the south.

Secondly, the area is pretty well "known" nowadays.

Third, Green Bay is already on I-43, an interstate, making US41 an interstate no matter which number just makes Green Bay on 2 interstates.

Fourth, US 41 goes from Miami, Florida to WAY UP NORT in dose neckadawoods in Michigan, US 41 is just as widely known as I-55, and in some cases legendary.

Fifth, like I said before, I-41 fits between I-39 and I-43, people recognize the interstate system pattern as well.
Also, I-55 does *NOT* end at the Dan Ryan expressway (I-90/94) in Chicago, it goes a bit farther and ends at US 41 - only the wrong part of US 41 (Lake Shore Drive). I-57 ends with a direct feed into the Dan Ryan and would be the perfect I-route to extend to take over US 41. It would also give I-94 between Chicago and Milwaukee a proper north-south route number as I-94 along that way is still signed 'east/west' and very confusing. Further, the ramps between the Stevenson Expressway (I-55) to the southwest and the Dan Ryan Expressway (I-90/94) to the north are only one lane in each direction.

A number like 'I-57' allows for potential future route extensions away from US 41, too.

Wither WI 57 should US 41 become I-57? I would reroute US 41 to follow I-43 from the Marquette interchange to the Port Washington/Saukville split and then replace WI 57 from there to Green Bay. WI 57 northeast of Green Bay could take on a number like 'I-543/WI 543'.

Mike

...Below are downtown buildings he constructed, worked on or renovated in Green Bay...



Below is a photo of the rotunda of the Green Bay Correctional Institution in Allouez....

Appreciate the architectural photos you've been posting, Tower Park, very informative. Thanks for those and the news link updates.

Downtown Coast Guard pic... Looks like those limestone piles are getting pretty big these days....

With the stations/stops in Portland and Seattle, one influence that makes shelter essential and expected is the constant rain. (In the pic, aren’t those bright light bars for Seasonal Affective Disorder? ;) ) Another factor is the low to non-existent snow load, giving some flexibility for lighter construction and, I would guess, a freer hand in the use of open and transparent materials--clean urban styling and good light and a feeling of greater safety. No obscured corners to get backed into where no one can see you.

I agree that the more moderate weather in the Northwest can allow for more flexibility in design. I'm just using them as a standard of quality. We should for sure have our own design here that suits us best.


The new ACE Marine downtown has delivered three new boats to the Coast Guard, with more on the way. Expects eventually to build 15-18 CG boats a year. Its current contract with the Guard calls for 90 boats total.

Thanks for the update. It's awesome that they are building these here.

I think all transit should be fare-free. A. you save all the money spent on fare collection, such as the machines, the machine maintenance, the people to physically collect the money from the machines, and all the accountants to keep track of all the revenue. I'd say that's probably 10-20% of fares anyway. B. It removes a barrier to using transit. It'll get more people to use transit, which is good in that it is more efficient and will decrease congestion. C. Transit fares are regressive in that they impact the poor more than the middle class. Eliminating fares will put more money into the pockets of those who really need it. It might also be the difference in allowing some people to seek work in farther-out areas from their home, and that's good for our economy overall.

In an ideal world, I tend to agree. In fact, there's quite a bit of precedent for fare-free zones in downtowns. Seattle has a free ride zone downtown before 7pm, and Portland has a pretty large Fairless Square in and around downtown. The return on investment comes from increased values in the areas served.

The bottom line is there is no point to "upgrade" US 41 to an Interstate at all. The funding difference is minimal. The other major reason people point to is the Interstate "brand" is what businesses look for. Maybe there are a small number of businesses that care about the Interstate "brand", but those are dumb businesses. Any business worth its salt will know that the important thing is having a relatively congestion-free, high-speed highway nearby, and it doesn't matter if it is I-43, US 41, or STH 29. From a business' standpoint, they all are great highways to get their product to market. So I don't see why we need to spend a penny to re-sign all these highways and confuse people.

I agree. I suppose the counter argument is that dumb businesses employ people too. But I really think the biggest reason behind people wanting to be I-55 is to do with ego, wanting to be on the same road as all these big cities. Whoopty-do. I can see that there may be some advantages to being located on some Interstate, or having GB and the Fox Valley connected to Milwaukee by and Interstate, but I think there is ZERO advantage to having that Interstate be the same number as one that happens to go through other big cities. In the end I really couldn't care less one way or the other what they do.


Too bad we can't hide $10 million in there for the Green Bay Trolley.

When you look at the money that may be spent to decorate the overpasses, etc, that has to be $10 million. It's too bad that % of the project isn't directed towards transit infrastructure in the communities served by the highway project. It's great to make things look as nice as possible, but I think there'd be greater ROI for things that over time could actually reduce, in some small way, demand on the highway.

In my mind, if we want the type of downtown that I think we all wish for, the ONLY way we're going to see it (really, the ONLY way) is to encourage more use of public transportation. I argue for trolleys or streetcars, you can argue that busses can do the same thing, but either way regardless,Well as you all know I am the blue collar stick in the mud here and once again I am going to be Mr Negative. Until you do something downtown that gives people a reason to go there you can have all of the quaint little trolleys or streetcars and it is not going to matter. If the only reason to do downtown during the day is to go to a bank or pay a speeding ticket people are going to use their cars, its faster and more convenient. If the only reason to go downtown in the evening is a meal or drinking, again car is going to be the primary mode of transportation.

People demand convenience and flexibility something you cannot get on public transportation, but they also need reasons to go there, and right now the shops on Broadway are quaint but the are geared to a certain clientèle and the kind of stores and entertainment that is needed to bring people to downtown Green Bay are not interested in being there at this time. Green Bay is not Seattle, Chicago or for that matter even Des Moines and they are never going to be able to compare to what works and succeeds there, it is just not the way this cities population is geared.

They need to get rid of the mall once and for all, they need to open the street grid again, I suppose its too late to set rid of the parking ramp at Wash and Walnut. I love the idea they are going to remodel the Northland, I love the Bellin Building, personally trolleys and streetcars will just be empty transportation, there is nothing in downtown Green Bay to attract people.

Well as you all know I am the blue collar stick in the mud here and once again I am going to be Mr Negative. Until you do something downtown that gives people a reason to go there you can have all of the quaint little trolleys or streetcars and it is not going to matter. If the only reason to do downtown during the day is to go to a bank or pay a speeding ticket people are going to use their cars, its faster and more convenient. If the only reason to go downtown in the evening is a meal or drinking, again car is going to be the primary mode of transportation.

People demand convenience and flexibility something you cannot get on public transportation, but they also need reasons to go there, and right now the shops on Broadway are quaint but the are geared to a certain clientèle and the kind of stores and entertainment that is needed to bring people to downtown Green Bay are not interested in being there at this time. Green Bay is not Seattle, Chicago or for that matter even Des Moines and they are never going to be able to compare to what works and succeeds there, it is just not the way this cities population is geared.

They need to get rid of the mall once and for all, they need to open the street grid again, I suppose its too late to set rid of the parking ramp at Wash and Walnut. I love the idea they are going to remodel the Northland, I love the Bellin Building, personally trolleys and streetcars will just be empty transportation, there is nothing in downtown Green Bay to attract people.

You know GBM I agree with you on this, until there are places to go and things to do the "main stream green bay-ite" won't have any reason to go downtown. The hard part of improving anything is trying to predict what the future holds, take for example the stock market, its really still a shitty economy out there and unemployment is over 10%, yet the stock market is advancing. I suppose that you could debate the reasons, but the market is considered to be forward looking and thus predicting that the economy will improve. Now I suppose that we can debate downtown development/ redevelopment over the years and maybe compare it to the great bear market of the 1970's, but I think what what needs to happen is that we become more visionary and less reactionary to the problems that plague our downtown. Its very clear to me that there is money to be had for construction spending. Almost all fringe areas of the GB metro are still continuing to expand. Yet it seems that all the downtown proposals fail to reach a suitable financing plan * (except for all the new bank buildings) hint hint.

Its awesome that after all these years on this forum that almost every day even with lack of any development there are some great posts. Thanks to all who participate...:cheers:

4. I think all transit should be fare-free. Transit fares are regressive in that they impact the poor more than the middle class. Eliminating fares will put more money into the pockets of those who really need it. It might also be the difference in allowing some people to seek work in farther-out areas from their home, and that's good for our economy overall.


What else should be free or discounted because it affects the poor more then the middle class? health care, cell phones, INTERNET, gasoline, cars, electric & phone bills, restaurants, big shiny rims & big screen TV's.....etc. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. We can't keep affording to subsidize everyone. I'm not against helping someone when they are down, but this redistribution has gotten way out of hand.

Next time you go to your coffee shop, maybe they should price a cup of Jo at $4.00 if you make over 40 grand a year, $2 if you make between 30 & 40 grand, $1 if you make between 20 & 30 grand, free if you make between 10 & 20 grand & they will pay you to drink the Jo if you make under 10 grand. Would that be fair? Sounds like it would be fair according to you all. Thats basically how the system works now.

I'm sick of running into people who milk the system for everything they can. SSI, food stamps, welfare..etc. These could be good programs if recipients were screened and fraud weeded out with a little (or a lot) more effort. But the system is full of scammers that cost the rest of us millions & millions a year. Recently this has come to light with the child care scam.
See link...http://www.jsonline.com/news/38617217.html

Yet it seems that all the downtown proposals fail to reach a suitable financing plan * (except for all the new bank buildings) hint hint.

Ummm, does this mean something? Maybe something good?

Below is a photo of the rotunda of the Green Bay Correctional Institution in Allouez. It's part of the Press-Gazette's terrific ongoing series on local architecture. GBCI was originally built some 110 years ago, on the site of what had been a bicycle factory, as the Wisconsin State Reformatory. It's on the National Register of Historic Places.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde-39-1.jpg

Wow I had no idea this place had such an awesome rotunda. What strikes me as out-of-place though are the cheap-looking flourescent lights slapped up on a conduit running along the ceiling. Obviously not part of the original design. I hate it when someone slaps something out of place on top of good architecture.

This place is just like the Courthouse in that it is some of the most stunning architecture in the city, yet it goes largely unseen and underappreciated because the only time people go to either of these places is when they don't want to be there. In the case of the prison, most people don't go there unless they're a criminal or visiting criminals. In the case of the courthouse, most people don't go there unless they're being charged as a criminal, they're doing jury duty or some other generally disagreeable activity like getting married (oops did I just say that?)

Tower, thanks for posting this. You are picking up my slack on Packerland Annals.

... Until you do something downtown that gives people a reason to go there you can have all of the quaint little trolleys or streetcars and it is not going to matter.

We could continue to debate this but for me it's the old "chicken and egg" argument that probably gets us nowhere. I agree with you but I wonder what it's going to take to get more things to move into the downtown..Would something like better transportation help bring in more new places worth visiting? As I said in a recent post, the transportation system is de-facto development and land use policy.

personally trolleys and streetcars will just be empty transportation , there is nothing in downtown Green Bay to attract people..

I think the "chicken and egg" have to kind of find some way to come together at the same time. It's the "symbiotic relationship" much like bees need flowers and flowers need bees. You're arguing that we need more flowers and I'm saying we need more bees. We're probably both right.

People demand convenience and flexibility something you cannot get on public transportation...

I completely disagree with this. If done right and in the right situation, public transportation can be far more convenient than cars. For example, I think our downtown tolley loop idea would be high-frequency and could make for very short waiting times (< 5 minutes) for people looking to quickly move by streetcar across the whole downtown, both sides of the river....The trolley loop could give visitors the ability to park just once and for the rest of the visit be dropped off right at the door of every destination. For contrast think about the current situation: with cars we we drive around in ramps or lots searching for a public parking spot, and then to move to another destination often means getting back in the car to do it all over again, again and again, messing with meters, driving in traffic, etc. Hence people might be discouraged to come and spend much time at all downtown, or if they do come they visit only one destination and then leave. Trolleys offer a different and, in a downtown area, a more convenient way of getting all around. I'm not talking about our current metro bus system, which does have certain inconveniences in getting from point A to B across the whole city...Rather, I'm talking about a continuously looping, high frequency trolley...a different animal that what perhaps you're talking about.


They need to get rid of the mall once and for all, they need to open the street grid again, I suppose its too late to set rid of the parking ramp at Wash and Walnut. I love the idea they are going to remodel the Northland, I love the Bellin Building We agree! :hug: I think virtually everyone agrees the mall has to go. Why not take advantage of this general consensus and find some how, some way to git 'er done?

Just a few thoughts. I agree it is the chicken and the egg situation, but in this case one is dependent on the other. It's not like we can have just a chicken or an egg and the other will automatically appear... okay, I'm done being philosophical, but this actually leads to a point. I believe one can definitely lead to another, but timing must be just right for it to work in this town. I think we need a couple more destinations DT to make the trolley idea work (Bullfrogs, Children's Museum, etc.). With those extra few attractions there may actually be a need for a trolley loop. As I see it today, when I'm DT I'm usually at one or two places and that's it. I would have no need for a trolley because there just isn't enough to do.

One other idea... how about a combination of private/government funding for the DT trolley. One option, would be to get the developers of the "new" (hopefully) Northland to partner with GB to spring for trolley cars, costs, etc. initially. I'm thinking this could be a draw for potential customers knowing that they can easily navigate DT and it might pull some tourists away from the Lambeau or other areas. Then for x years Northland gets a slice of the income generated from it. I'm not sure how feasible a deal like this would be, but am trying to think a little differently about ways to possibly make it work.

In short, I think the best chance for success is to partner the trolley with a big development/grand opening DT what will draw attention to it and also receive backing or advertisement from the private sector.

Lots of great posts lately, guys. I love all the contributions.

I'm not going to give a lot of detail, but let me just say that there is something really exciting coming soon to a Green Bay Metro Transit system near you! I'd say by early next year there will be something in place that should really increase customer service and probably result in increased ridership as well. That's all I'm going to say for now.

I promise not to steal your thunder Puant but yes there is some good news coming. I am an interning at Downtown Green Bay Inc. and Olde Main Street Inc. and I have been working on this project myself. It is not finalized yet but we are hoping to have this up and going by next spring. This won't solve all of downtown's issues but it's a start.

Until you do something downtown that gives people a reason to go there you can have all of the quaint little trolleys or streetcars and it is not going to matter.

You know GBM I agree with you on this, until there are places to go and things to do the "main stream green bay-ite" won't have any reason to go downtown.

I don't totally disagree with the sentiment here. I don't think a trolley is going to get people from Ashwaubenon or Howard or Bellvue or out parts of Green Bay to come downtown. Those people are only going to come down because there is something downtown they want to do, just as you say, and those people are going to drive down. I think that's totally true.

What I'm getting at with the trolley idea is something to serve people who live very close to the downtown, and for whom, if they have access to a small system where lead-times are short enough so that using the system isn't inconvenient, can use it for getting to work, errands, etc. The point isn't to be quaint or cute, it's to be functional. It's not for tourists or visitors to the area (though hopefully some will use it), but for the area residents.

Also, I'm less interested in building such a system for the benefit of downtown (though I think it would help) and more interested in building it to benefit the near-downtown neighborhoods. It wouldn't be particularly useful for someone coming from farther out unless they had multiple downtown destinations that were somewhat far apart (which I'm guessing is not very many people), but it could be a primary mode of transportation for the 13,000 to 15,000 people who live within 1/4 mile of the route.

In any case, I don't actually expect to see this system built any time soon. But I do think these are good things to think about if we're interested in reversing the deterioration of our older neighborhoods.

As an aside, I saw several people out checking out the progress, and I also saw a guy walking back east across the river carrying several bags of food from Save-A-Lot, so it does happen.

I frequently walk or drive across either the Main or Walnut bridges, I always look to see if there's anyone crossing on foot or bicycle. It's my curiosity of the notion that the river is is some kind of physical or psychological barrier separating the East side from the West side.

As for the shopping bags from Save-A-Lot, I've seen people carrying those bags as far east as N. Irwin Ave on the East side near Harvey, Day and Smith streets. It shows that store serves the East side up to a mile away. That's basically the point where it's an equal distance to either Save-A-Lot or University Avenue Market, SuperValu.


Also, I'm less interested in building such a system for the benefit of downtown (though I think it would help) and more interested in building it to benefit the near-downtown neighborhoods. It wouldn't be particularly useful for someone coming from farther out unless they had multiple downtown destinations that were somewhat far apart (which I'm guessing is not very many people), but it could be a primary mode of transportation for the 13,000 to 15,000 people who live within 1/4 mile of the route.

In any case, I don't actually expect to see this system built any time soon. But I do think these are good things to think about if we're interested in reversing the deterioration of our older neighborhoods.

I agree completely with your thoughts here. But if it ever reaches the city council or county board there's going to be opposition from some elected officials because the money isn't flowing into their district. I can think of one council member that's questioned putting money into the inner city neighborhoods because there's too many police calls and blames people living on Section 8 housing. He can't believe that people looking to buy a home would consider moving into these neighborhoods.

There might be some truth to that but the reversal from deteriorating neighborhoods to improving ones has been going on for some time now. On the East side there's many vacant lots where "trouble" houses have been bought up by the city and razed. Those lots are owned by the RDA, are for sale and have stipulations about what type of house can be built to keep up architectural congruity in the neighborhood.

A transportation system that runs through these neighborhoods would be an excellent asset to making them a more desirable place to move to.

:dance:

....anyone going.........anyone know where the bathrooms are? :toilet:
:dunno:

Not to get off-topic. But I mentioned awhile back that WaterMark's problems in getting financing sound similar to what's happening nationwide with the credit crisis. Below is a good article on the state of one local bank, Baylake Bank, which has been a major player downtown in recent years. It owns the successful Baylake City Center building (home of APAC) and helped in development of the unsuccessful Washington Commons mall. The article says Baylake has $40 million in nonperforming loans on the books and notes it has not been paying any quarterly common stock dividend since early 2008. The FDIC has a confidential watch list of more than 400 "problem banks" around the country. I wouldn't be surprised if Baylake and perhaps one or two other banks with operations in Brown County are on that watch list. Hope Baylake can work its ways through this.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091115/GPG03/911150723/-1/archive

:dance:

....anyone going.........anyone know where the bathrooms are? :toilet:
:dunno:

if you have to go already, you should probably take care of it before you go... ;)

if you have to go already, you should probably take care of it before you go... ;)

..........not to be stuck on a stinky issue........but...........I won't be surprised if there are no "facilities" provided..........in the CityDeck plan..........maybe port-a-potties for big events and that's it.......that's my bet.........seems a little short sighted to me.........maybe I'm wrong.......I sure hope so......:nuts:

The MWRRI (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/state/docs/railmidwest.pdf) seems to indicate that Green Bay, Appleton, Neenah, Oshkosh, Fond du Lac, West Bend, northwest Milwaukee, and then downtown Milwaukee will be the stops on the proposed Milwaukee to Green Bay intercity train. Unfortunately it seems like that train will be a long way off, but let's think about the future. Once you've got the track upgraded and usable at 110 mph, then what else can happen?

My plan is to create a commuter train system along the entire Milwaukee-Green Bay route. You'd still have the "express" trains as shown above that operate about 7 times daily, and would fill the need of people needing to go to a different city for a day once in a while, and connect all the residents of those cities with the Amtrak national network in Milwaukee/Chicago. But then you'd have 10-20 additional trains per day operating as local trains or commuter trains, depending on how you see it. The stops would be something like this:

Green Bay, Ashwaubenon, De Pere, Wrightstown, Kaukauna, Little Chute, Appleton, Neenah, Oshkosh, North FdL, FdL, Eden, Campbellsport, Kewaskum, West Bend, Jackson, Granville, [somewhere], State St, Miller Park [event use only], Menomonee Valley, Downtown Milwaukee

Add to those a few stop that make great sense as a park-n-ride spot, such as at STH 172, CTH J & 41, STH 441 & Northland, Breezewood Ln, or Richfield.

Here's a map of my proposed Eastern Wisconsin Commuter Rail (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=101611748157792987226.0004787f4387b0f62d2f3&z=8).

That commuter line would be unlike most commuter systems that are heavily tilted toward a downtown, like Chicago. On this system, many of those stops could be a work destination. There would be a mix every day of people going north or south.

As time has gone on, many people in NE Wisconsin have treated the Fox Cities/Green Bay as one marketplace for jobs. More people live in GB and work in Appleton or Neenah than ever before, and this has shown up as heavier traffic on US 41. Some couples work in different cities. This commuter train would serve to improve those people's lives, and also to expand the possible jobs for other people who wouldn't want to drive that distance every day.

Once the system is in place, GB would need to get its transit act together to integrate its bus system with the train. How many people live in the Fox Cities that go to UWGB every day for work or class? What about the insurance giants around town? Or Schnieder? I'd say there would be enough people for at least a dedicated shuttle to those places.

And of course, this would only serve to strengthen the urban cores at these stations. It'll create more demand for jobs and homes nearby. Just look at Chicago's Metra system... it is basically a string of pearls revived by the trains... useful downtowns with lots of housing.

The incremental cost over just the intercity train would be minimal, since the biggest expense with medium-speed rail is upgrading the track. I suspect many cities would pay to build their commuter rail station. Plus, at least to begin with, there's no reason to have much more at a station than just the platform and a small open-air shelter.

My map shows a few potential routings of the route from Fond du Lac to Milwaukee. The MWRRI seems to show it going on a rail corridor that is partly abandoned. The section from Eden to West Bend is currently used as the Eisenbahn State Trail. I have doubts that the trail will get ripped up, and I don't think they'll buy land adjacent to the trail to put in a rail line. So I'm guessing they'll take the rail line that goes through Lomira.

If anyone has any suggestions for where a good commuter station would be located, I'd be happy to add it to the map. Danillo and I discussed it today, and we felt that a station between Appleton and Neenah would be good, but we don't know the area well enough to say where. I also think Oshkosh should have another stop, but I don't know where.

I think metro Milwaukee would have a handful of stops on the way into downtown, but I didn't want to guess where those might be. Probably the Tower Automotive site, in addition to the couple I showed in the Menomonee Valley.

What else should be free or discounted because it affects the poor more then the middle class? health care, cell phones, INTERNET, gasoline, cars, electric & phone bills, restaurants, big shiny rims & big screen TV's.....etc. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. We can't keep affording to subsidize everyone. I'm not against helping someone when they are down, but this redistribution has gotten way out of hand.

Next time you go to your coffee shop, maybe they should price a cup of Jo at $4.00 if you make over 40 grand a year, $2 if you make between 30 & 40 grand, $1 if you make between 20 & 30 grand, free if you make between 10 & 20 grand & they will pay you to drink the Jo if you make under 10 grand. Would that be fair? Sounds like it would be fair according to you all. Thats basically how the system works now.

I'm sick of running into people who milk the system for everything they can. SSI, food stamps, welfare..etc. These could be good programs if recipients were screened and fraud weeded out with a little (or a lot) more effort. But the system is full of scammers that cost the rest of us millions & millions a year. Recently this has come to light with the child care scam.
See link...http://www.jsonline.com/news/38617217.html

I've been thinking about this, and I think there are a few problems with your argument. Chief among these is the idea that because SOME beneficiaries of a program cheat the system, that we should hold off on programs that assist ALL of those who need them most. A more reasonable approach is to reform programs to the best of our ability, but lets not throw that baby out with the bathwater. I've seen this idea manifest itself in a number of areas. SOME homeless people are just pleased as punch to live off of other people's good will and not try to become productive, but I don't find that to be sufficient reason to let ALL homeless people who were unable to find shelter elsewhere freeze on a cold winter night.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what any of what you've had to say has to do with transportation systems. Yes, some people do as you say and take advantage of certain systems, but none of that means no fare isn't the right fare for such a system. If a fareless system was determined to lead to the greatest overall benefit, the greatest business growth and the largest increase in surrounding property value, isn't that the fare (or lack thereof) that should be charged? I don't know off hand if that would be the case, but fareless systems have succeeded elsewhere I can't can see who benefits by ruling out such an option just because SOME people have taken advantages of OTHER programs.

The idea persists in our society that wealth is a meritocracy. It's not. That isn't to say that people who do better don't ever deserve their money or haven't worked hard for what they have. Nor is it a call for some sort of socialist system to re-distribute wealth, people on here who know me will know that I don't support that, and I think I've made a pretty fair defense of the market on here recently. At the same time, allowing the poor to flounder under the premise that they are lazy and looking to take advantage of the system is untrue and unproductive. It is untrue because there are circumstances beyond an individual's control that make them much more likely to end up poor, and unproductive because the costs of doing nothing are often very high.

Mobility matters. If you are born into a situation where your parents have greater difficulty accessing jobs, goods, and/or services, you are born into a disadvantage. It may mean you don't get to as good of child care. It may mean you can't get to a better school even if a school choice program would in theory allow you to. It may mean that your parents are spending a higher percentage of their income trying to get around instead of buying a computer or a book. Over time, and when dealing with populations as a whole, those who grow up with such disadvantages will always do worse, they will always (as a group) enter a competitive job environment at a disadvantage. Now life isn't fair and it isn't the government's job to make it so, but if ever you are building new systems and you have the opportunity to use that as a tool to add value to poor communities, you have to take a good look at that.

In practical terms, there seems to be a flaw in thinking that by spending less on things that improve the lives of the poor, that you are somehow protecting the taxpayer. Not every program is a good investment, but that doesn't mean that no programs are worthwhile. Again, mobility matters, and people who are more mobile have better access to jobs and do better overall. By contrast it's been shown the world over that when poverty is isolated and ignored, social problems follow. At what cost? We spend increasing millions warehousing criminals. I have no sympathy for criminals, but provide access to a job that takes one would-be criminal out of jail for a year and you've darn near paid for a bus driver for that same year, and that's before you've accounted for other social benefits of that person not being in jail that also add value to a community. What if you provide 1,000 people with job access, what if you reduce the prison population by 100? If it costs $20,000 (and I think that's a low figure) to warehouse someone for a year, that's a savings of $2 million a year. Obviously that would be difficult to track in real terms, but it's real nonetheless and at least needs to be considered when looking at a program's cost versus value. Bringing value into a community provides even more benefits beyond the obvious benefit of increased tax base. What is the lost opportunity cost when people struggle to do something as simple as move about their city? How do you even begin to quantify that?

I'm not saying that some trolley is going to instantly transform our near-downtown communities into some urban utopia. We do have a real opportunity on our hands now though. We really don't have any terrible areas. Some places are worse than others, and some places have trended down, but nowhere is in any way beyond repair. It's a great time to be thinking about ways that these areas can be kept from decline or improved, and what systems will allow for the lives of the people in them to be improved to the benefit of them and the community at large. In taking a look at this, we need to openly consider the options. No matter what systems are or aren't implemented, SOMEONE is going to find a way to take advantage of that. There will always be winners and losers. Let's not let that distract us from helping those who need help, nor from doing that which may create the greatest value for the community as a whole.

...and if you've read through Kramerica's post AND my post, good on ya! We've nearly written a book.

in this morning's PG. I think this guy is very smart to advertise that he's keeping some of the stein's original menu - that's sure to bring in a few people that may have not otherwise gone..

Tequila's cantina gives downtown Green Bay shot in arm
Serrano brothers open Mexican restaurant in old Stein building
By Nathan Phelps • nphelps@greenbaypressgazette.com • November 17, 2009

The building at 126 S. Adams St. in Green Bay has seen an odd evolution the last two years with the on-again-off-again operation of The Stein, and now a new owner who is bringing a Mexican restaurant and bar to the site.


Tequila's Restaurant and Cantina will offer the same Reuben sandwich The Stein was famous for along with some other American fare, though the core product will be Mexican food.

The restaurant will offer a lunch and dinner menu along with happy hour, said general manager Beto Serrano. He said he's confident the restaurant will tap into the downtown market with the new venture.

"I like the downtown area, and there are a lot of businesses there, and I see a lot of potential there for customers," said Serrano, who owns the business with his brother, Sergio. "There's a really good market there … I think it will work out pretty well."

The Serranos expect to open Tequila's by the first weekend in December. They are working on the property and found brickwork under the walls. Patrons can expect to see a little more brick in the building when it opens, Beto Serrano said.

"We're going to keep The Stein Reubens in there," along with another Stein sandwich, Serrano said. "We're going to keep one of the traditions of that building. They're going to give us the original recipe."

Jeff Mirkes, executive director of Downtown Green Bay, said keeping that item on the menu should be a popular decision.

"If they bring back The Stein Reuben, word is going to spread about that," he said. "To keep the novelty of that with their menu is a very good strategy."

Mirkes said its nice to see a business moving in at 126 S. Adams St. again.

"We're pleased to see them taking the property, and they're doing a nice job of fixing it up and making improvements," he said. "We're encouraged by their entrepreneurial spirit … that sees this as an opportunity."

:dance:

....anyone going.........anyone know where the bathrooms are? :toilet:
:dunno:

And trash cans too.

Yes, I'm a conservative.

At least with respect to passenger rail, you remind me more of a European conservative than a U.S. conservative. In Europe, from my reading, conservatives generally support government involvement in matters like passenger rail and health care (varies from country to country) and endorse efforts to combat global warming, which they take seriously. Not so for most conservatives in this country.

Until you do something downtown that gives people a reason to go there . . . there is nothing in downtown Green Bay to attract people.

I get your drift. But I'd argue there ARE reasons to go downtown. It has the largest concentration of office buildings in the area, with something like 10,000 people or more who work there. It's second only to Oneida Street in the concentration of restaurants and hotels in the area. The largest concentration, I believe, of apartments and condos in the area. The largest concentration of government offices (city, county, state, federal, school district) in the area. The largest concentration of banks in the area. Perhaps outside of the Stadium District, the largest concentration of nightclubs in the area. Host of Green Bay's major festivals: Artstreet, Bayfest, Celebrate Americafest, Tall Ships, etc. Concerts and other special events. The Fox River, with two scenic bridges. KI Convention Center. Central Library. Neville Public Museum. Meyer Theatre. Green Bay's premiere historic architectural showpiece, the Brown County Courthouse and Courthouse Square, including the Law Enforcement Center. Historic churches. YMCA & YWCA. Transit Center. Fox River Trail. CityDeck. Leicht Park. Veterans Memorial Park. The port and the Foxy Lady. Farmers markets. Micro-breweries and a winery. A boatbuilder. Some retail. Perhaps a Bullfrogs Stadium.

Those are all very good reasons — and some I've probably missed — why hundreds of thousands of people go downtown every year. But even with all that, I agree it's not enough. That's why every piece of the puzzle — large and small — is so important. Downtown Green Bay has a huge void to fill with the loss of major retail, but it keeps chipping away at it in a changing and challenging environment for downtowns all across the country. There are opportunities.

They need to get rid of the mall once and for all, they need to open the street grid again. . . . I love the idea they are going to remodel the Northland, I love the Bellin Building, . . .

Yes.

Wow I had no idea this place had such an awesome rotunda. What strikes me as out-of-place though are the cheap-looking fluorescent lights slapped up on a conduit running along the ceiling. Obviously not part of the original design. I hate it when someone slaps something out of place on top of good architecture.

This place is just like the Courthouse in that it is some of the most stunning architecture in the city, yet it goes largely unseen and underappreciated because the only time people go to either of these places is when they don't want to be there. In the case of the prison, most people don't go there unless they're a criminal or visiting criminals. In the case of the courthouse, most people don't go there unless they're being charged as a criminal, they're doing jury duty or some other generally disagreeable activity like getting married (oops did I just say that?)

It is interesting that two of the Green Bay area's largest and best examples of historic architecture are in the criminal justice system. For tourists and locals alike, the Courthouse is a hidden jewel. It's only open weekdays during the day. It would be great — though improbable — if the rotunda area could be open weekends for tours or visiting. When I was involved with Artstreet years ago (I was a cofounder!), we had downtown architectural tours and concerts on the Courthouse lawn.

This is probably before your time, Puant. But the Courthouse over the years had been remuddled in various ways (similar to the fluorescent lighting at GBCI). When they decided a couple of decades ago to restore the building, they took off layers of interior paint. The historic wall murals (not the rotunda murals), as well as cornices and other architectural highlights, over the years had been painted over with institutional colors. Yikes! What a fabulous discovery it was when they learned, through some paint-chip inspection and other analysis, that the murals and other areas could be restored.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/courthouserotunda2.jpg



Final item on my list here. Associated Bank names a new president and agrees to a "memorandum of understanding" with the federal government about how much capital it should have on hand.

www.jsonline.com/business/70228687.html

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091117/GPG03/911170515/-1/archive

http://www.jsonline.com/business/38152619.html

P.S. Take this for what it's worth. But I hear on the street that the Walnut/Washington building is definitely going to happen, in some form. But I don't know when.

P.S. Take this for what it's worth. But I hear on the street that the Walnut/Washington building is definitely going to happen, in some form. But I don't know when.

Who told you? Vetter? :lol:

Who told you? Vetter? :lol:

Brett Favre.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tower Park View Post
P.S. Take this for what it's worth. But I hear on the street that the Walnut/Washington building is definitely going to happen, in some form. But I don't know when.

Who told you? Vetter?

As long as it is somebody other than the Mayor or GBPG I have more confidence to believe it is true :nuts: Pretty sad when the real news comes from this board instead of our local media or city hall.

... I don't think a trolley is going to get people from Ashwaubenon or Howard or Bellvue or out parts of Green Bay to come downtown. Those people are only going to come down because there is something downtown they want to do, just as you say, and those people are going to drive down. I think that's totally true.

Yes, they'll drive down but once the convenience of the "park once" idea is realized, even people who drive down will take the trolley to move about after parking.

How do I think the convenience of the "park once" idea will come to be realized even by suburbanites?

Well, I think that the trolleys should be promoted by advertisements at least at first. But that won't be the most powerful way of getting more and more people to use them: I think that the 10,000 or so downtown employees (most of whom drive down) will be among the first to use the trolley. We will want to take advantage of the ample, cheap parking around the periphery near the trolley loops and hop the easy, frequent ride in. And once parked, most of us downtown employees don't take lunches or other trips to many other parts of the downtown because our cars are either far away or inconveniently located up in a ramp somewhere. Some will walk a couple blocks, but most don't. SO I can imagine a looping trolley would get used a lot more during the day by the downtown employees as well as visitors...even to travel to that far-off land known as "across the river". And 10,000 people who come downtown 5 days a week will do a lot of talking. If done right and as good and attractive and convenient of a system as I think it could be, people will say good things about it. And that word-of-mouth could inspire others who never come downtown to give it a try. The destinations are few and far between right now, but all the more reason to build the trolley, right?

A better, more convenient, more attractive system like our trolley system should minimize the amount of counter-productive land use in the core of the downtown by allowing for more things, more stores, more destinations to be built where there would otherwise be the dead space known as parking lots. It's how we can add more destinations to the downtown. It's how most other cities with good, dense downtowns can keep jobs and destinations downtown while still maintaining the healthy balance of other uses and attractive spaces. Almost all downtowns that sold out to cars and put in too much parking or too many large freeways have largely withered. Study this and see for yourself if you're interested. You can start with Green Bay.

Now, I do also agree that the trolleys would also serve people who live close to downtown, most certainly. The "urbanites" that I talk about on Packerland Annals (article 1 (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2007/08/choices-for-real-estate-market.html) and article 2 (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2008/11/could-downtown-green-bay-be-home-to.html?showComment=1227588900000)) remember, constitute a large percentage of any given population. According to some pretty good research the "urbanites" are up to 33% of the population so in Green Bay that's tens of thousand of people who might be inclined to live in an urban place if such suitable places exist. There are different reasons people live in or near downtown--some live there not by choice necessarily. But the research is all about those who would CHOOSE to live in good urban space, if given the choice of all types of living options (urban, suburban or rural).

We already do have the 10,000 - 15,000 who live near downtown, and that's good, these people will be better served by a more frequent, looping public transportation option. However, of the number that currently live here, not all of them are here necessarily because they WANT to. Some would leave if another opportunity arose for them. But if we can make the downtown more attrative by providing things like trolleys---and yes, more jobs and destinations would hopefully follow that lead--then I think we could potentially get even more people to move in.

.
In any case, I don't actually expect to see this system built any time soon. But I do think these are good things to think about if we're interested in reversing the deterioration of our older neighborhoods.

Me either. But I think it's good for someone to be at least discussing in public, and to debate. I could change my mind on whether it was a good thing but so far nobody's been able to persuade me that the trolley idea is a bad one. Even the expense of it. True, it will cost some millions but as someone pointed out, this whole trolley system could be paid for with just some of the optional items being proposed on the USH 41 upgrade. Or a single large parking ramp. And the trolley should help densify the downtown so that the city can realize more of a tax base.

Let's think ahead: if we can begin to build a base of support for this idea now, it could pay off later on when the timing might be more ripe. When might that be? Well, I think the streetcar should tie into the regional passenger rail system and the bus system. Let me explain. I see a growing number of people from both sides of the political spectrum catching on to the idea that passenger rail makes sense in some areas. Although not the highest priority right now, I think the Green Bay - Appleton - Oshkosh - FDL - Milwaukee - Chicago line stands a good chance as a "phase 2" development IMO. Presumably the Green Bay terminal will be on the west side, possibly near the former depot now known as Titletown. The street car would tie that depot into the "transit center" (bus) hub on the other side of the river. In many other ways the trolley could be 'hitched' so to speak to the passenger rail system. as a means to move people around once they're dropped off of the regional rail. Otherwise, the passenger rail system stands less chance of success if it's too "stand alone".

****************************************

I've got more on Kramerica's post and others but this post is already too long...I'll save other thought sfor later.

I will say, however, that this trolley idea continues to have me inspired and I'm working on a new and exciting way of promoting the idea. It's going to be a visual thing, with moving parts. I want the timing of everything to be as close to reality as possible, I may need your help on that. I want the parts (the animated trolleys) to move aroudn the map in concert to give people an idea of how frequent and how convenient this sytem could be. What I don't know is how many trolleys to show on the map. I'm going with what is becoming known as the "Kramerica/Danillo" loops as the routes because I think they are pretty good ones. But how many trolleys would you put on that? 2 for each loop? 4? Would they all run counter-clockwise or some other direction, or opposite? Weigh in if you can so that I can consider all options as I develop this animation. The concept is coming together nicely. Amazing how much free and useful software is out there nowadays!

A new Mexican Restaurant, Tequila's Restaurant and Cantina, is going into the old Stein building.

Looks like they are going to keep the Stein's Reuben sandwich on their menu.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091117/GPG03/911170512

Love all this trolley talk. Trolley on! as eddyout might say.

Yes, they'll drive down but once the convenience of the "park once" idea is realized, even people who drive down will take the trolley to move about after parking..We will want to take advantage of the ample, cheap parking around the periphery

http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt133/marseilles_bucket/1950s.jpg

Some ample, cheap parking ideas of yore... :nuts:
(CityDeck in the 1950s)

From the CityDeck Website (http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/CityDeck/index.html)
Grand Opening Events
Saturday, November 21st following the 26th Annual Time Warner Cable Green Bay Holiday Parade at approximately 11:45 AM
The festivities will begin in the Nicolet National Bank lot at the corner of Washington and Walnut Streets in a heated tent complete with light displays from the Green Bay Botanical Gardens, costumed characters from the Northeastern Wisconsin Dance Organization, mascots, free cookies and cocoa and concessions available by the Daily Buzz Coffee Shop. City of Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt will announce several new events to take place on the CityDeck in 2010 before the UW Badger Band helps cut the ribbon and perform their famous 5th Quarter promenading down the deck.

The band will be joined on ShopKo Landing (a pier on the northern end of the CityDeck) by area bands participating in the parade for a large rendition of “On Wisconsin.” Fireworks by Spectrum Pyrotechnics will be shot off for a few minutes following the performance. The Great Lakes Towing Company will bring out their Tug Indiana piloted by 90-year-old Captain Liel Osell on the Fox River during the festivities.

Santaland will be set up in the Flats on the Fox building at 335 N. Jefferson Street until 2 p.m. with free pictures with Santa, a storybook for each child, free cookies and cocoa and live entertainment by John Kelly thanks to the Downtown Neighborhood Association.

Love all this trolley talk. Trolley on! as eddyout might say.



http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt133/marseilles_bucket/1950s.jpg

Some ample, cheap parking ideas of yore... :nuts:
(CityDeck in the 1950s)

From the CityDeck Website (http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/CityDeck/index.html)

That's a great photo of the waterfront and part of Washington and old Main streets. The taller building in the upper right, of course, is the former Hotel Northland. The taller building in the upper left on the northeast corner of Washington and old Main is the former Beaumont Hotel.

And what a great lineup for the CityDeck festivities. UW Badger Band, tugboat, fireworks, announcements by the mayor, Santaland, Botanical Garden . . . . Free cocoa! Great to tie the event in with the Holiday Parade.

http://www.midwesthsr.org/special/asia09.html

The boys over at Mid-West High Speed Rail Association Sent me an article from their newsletter.

Go to the above address and see for yourself.

Good stuff!

Check it out!

A new Mexican Restaurant, Tequila's Restaurant and Cantina, is going into the old Stein building.

Looks like they are going to keep the Stein's Reuben sandwich on their menu.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091117/GPG03/911170512

It seems to be the current trend. Restaurant goes under & a mexican place goes in. I like mexican food as much as the next guy, but it's getting a little old. If immigration would suddenly starts doing their job, there's going to be a lot of vacant restaurants for sale around town. I don't see the day that immigration starts to enforce the laws, so I'm sure they'll be ok.

Tower Park, you forget that in Gbmphillips' world, the 100's of thousands of people who do go downtown for the reasons that you cited don't count. It's only the people who Gbmphillips likes and feels comfortable with who matter; and yet, somehow, we're the elitist snobs.

And I'm going to resist rising to the bait of Night Rider's last post... I'll just say that he would be far more appropriately called 'Nativist' than I, even though I chose the name a couple of years ago without thinking about it enough.

From today's paper.

City Changes Event Name, Adopts Slogan

by Malavika Jagannathan
Green Bay Press-Gazette

Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt announced today the name of the city's annual Independence Day event will be changed next year from Celebrate Americafest to Celebrate the Fourth of Julyfest.

"Celebrate Americafest is an awkward name," Schmitt said. "Celebrate the Fourth of Julyfest is even more awkward, but it has a ring to it. It's kind of catchy."

Schmitt noted that every other community event in Green Bay has "fest" in its title.

"We have Bayfest, Beerfest, Winterfest on Broadway, Artstreetfest," he said. "It's important we keep the tradition alive."

Meanwhile, Paul Jadin, president of the Green Bay Area Chamber of Commerce, announced today the chamber will discontinue its "Better by the Bay" promotional slogan.

Instead, the chamber will bring back a slogan it used a decade ago in community marketing and promotions: "Green Bay. A Warm Place to Be."

In explaining the change, Jadin noted the Union of Concerned Scientists says in 50 years Wisconsin winters will be more like winters today in Iowa, and Wisconsin summers will be more like summers today in Arkansas.

"Global warming provides us with a unique marketing opportunity," Jadin said. "We're ready for it."

From today's paper.

Dang, you got me again for a few seconds....Until about the 3rd line down.

It seems to be the current trend. Restaurant goes under & a Mexican place goes in. I like Mexican food as much as the next guy, but it's getting a little old. If immigration would suddenly starts doing their job, there's going to be a lot of vacant restaurants for sale around town. I don't see the day that immigration starts to enforce the laws, so I'm sure they'll be ok.
Negative stereotype aside, our newest immigrant demographic is like the others in that they enjoy a tight knit community that is supportive of the ones that are willing to take a financial risk to open up in a location where others have failed to make it work.

I'm glad that Tequila's is starting up because it will bring ethnic and cultural diversity to DT. That will make DT a more interesting place for visitors from Upper Duckwater that never get exposure to that diversity.

Does anybody know, did the owners of Tequila's purchase the building, or are they leasing?

^^ I second that.
Most restaurants with “ethnic” menus and motifs are chains (or mainstream approximations of ethnic cuisine) that generally have no existing tie to the actual ethnic group. They popularize watered-down versions of a country’s or ethnic group’s cuisine, and sport generic--and pretty silly--Americanized motifs. Speaking for myself, I might visit those restaurants when I am doing something else in the vicinity, and it’s convenient. But a good authentic ethnic restaurant is a destination in itself. There’s no doubt that authentic ethnic and cosmopolitan restaurants revitalize an urban center. More where those came from!

You lost me for good, Night Rider, with your post about Tequila's Restaurant & Cantina. It was uncalled for and racist. You know how to take the fun out of and bring a good board down.

By the way, does anyone know what's going on in front of the WBAY Building? Are they just erecting bleachers for the Holiday Parade or is it something else??

By the way, does anyone know what's going on in front of the WBAY Building? Are they just erecting bleachers for the Holiday Parade or is it something else??

Probably just Holiday Parade. Santa comes to town. One of my favorite memories as a child before the mall was there.

Word on the street is this project will formally be announced in the upcoming weeks. They are refining their plans and the will send a personal invite to those that showed and interest in the project. It would about time that building got filled.

Yes, they'll drive down but once the convenience of the "park once" idea is realized, even people who drive down will take the trolley to move about after parking...

How do I think the convenience of the "park once" idea will come to be realized even by suburbanites?...

And 10,000 people who come downtown 5 days a week will do a lot of talking. If done right and as good and attractive and convenient of a system as I think it could be, people will say good things about it. And that word-of-mouth could inspire others who never come downtown to give it a try. The destinations are few and far between right now, but all the more reason to build the trolley, right?

It's how most other cities with good, dense downtowns can keep jobs and destinations downtown while still maintaining the healthy balance of other uses and attractive spaces. Almost all downtowns that sold out to cars and put in too much parking or too many large freeways have largely withered. Study this and see for yourself if you're interested. You can start with Green Bay.

We already do have the 10,000 - 15,000 who live near downtown, and that's good, these people will be better served by a more frequent, looping public transportation option. However, of the number that currently live here, not all of them are here necessarily because they WANT to. Some would leave if another opportunity arose for them. But if we can make the downtown more attrative by providing things like trolleys---and yes, more jobs and destinations would hopefully follow that lead--then I think we could potentially get even more people to move in.

I really think you have this backwards. People from what I'll call the outskirts (even if they don't live far out, they live far enough that they wouldn't be able to walk to this trolley) just are never going to get in their car, drive down, park, get one a trolley, go to their destination, then get on a trolley again, and then drive home. I'm with GBM on this. I mean, people won't park in a ramp and walk two blocks somewhere. People who have commercial space want their customers to be able to drive down as close as possible. No restaurant is going to say to their customers, "Park a mile away on the edge of downtown, hop on a trolley, and come visit." I'm as big a supporter of the downtown and this transit idea as anyone, YOU HAVE NAMED THE LOOP AFTER ME (and Kramerica), and I wouldn't do what you are suggesting!

This trolley needs to serve the people who live along the route. They would use it because it would be easier than driving, because it would go right by their house and right my their destination. Maybe some small percentage of people would park and ride, but that's only for those who have multiple destinations downtown, and I doubt that is a huge amount of people. I could also see your model working for special events. People might use it to get to the Broadway farmers market because parking nearby is difficult and that's a popular attraction. But day to day, for people who are already getting in their car to head downtown, they just aren't going to switch to another form of transportation mid-trip. The bread and butter of any transit system is the people who LIVE and work and play in the areas served. It's designed for residents, and other people using it is just gravy. If a system in Green Bay can't be justified on the basis of the area residents it would serve, then it shouldn't be built.

A couple of other thoughts relating to much larger cities. Park and ride systems can work there, but the parking is done much farther from the downtown, and the riding is done on some form of rapid transit. This is justified by the terrible traffic going into those cities. Green Bay doesn't have terrible traffic. It is not faster or easier to park and take transit into town, so that model won't work here. And besides that, this trolley I'm talking about doesn't get far from downtown. I don't know of any city where you drive basically into the downtown, then get on a trolley and ride one mile further when there's a perfectly good parking ramp near where your going anyway. Which brings me to my other point, which is that most cities I've visited in the US have massive amounts of parking downtown. They may also be served by transit, but there are parking lots and ramps and such all over, say, downtown Chicago. All sorts of people drive into downtown Seattle or Portland. If those cities didn't have parking, they'd fail. It's less noticeable because there's so much more overall development, but it's there.

I (obviously) support this trolley idea. But it has to work for the local population that lives within a short walk of a stop. I think it can work because it connects compact neighborhoods that grew up around trolleys with a wide range of jobs and services. People who live outside the area served are unlikely to use it in large numbers unless bus service (or while we're dreaming regional rail) is good enough to connect them to the trolley from a bus/rail stop near their home. But once people get in their car, they want to drive down and park reasonably near their destination, then drive home. I'm all for getting rid of surface lots where possible, but if we don't in some way provide these people with parking, things are going to end very badly for the downtown. Transit can add density, it can ad value, it can serve a fairly large population of people, but it's a supplement to cars. If we ask people to take extra steps to get somewhere, we are asking them to go somewhere else. If we build a system on the idea that they are going to take extra steps, the system is going to fail.

Well, Danillo, I hear ya and I see where you are coming from but I still don't think I'm wrong. That said I enjoy a good debate, let's not let this get into an argument, especially since our disagreement is really pretty minor. Could we both be right, at least to some degree? Well it's all speculative so probably not even worth an argument.

I can take your name off of the trolley loop but I don't know what to call it then. If I'm going to use my name on anything, I'd rather put it on the brownfield baseball stadium..."Puant Field" has a nice ring to it, don't you think? :ohno:

If there really are other real developments like the Lofts on Adams or the building at Walnut/Washington or a good new restaurant moving into 'the stein', etc about to happen, then maybe I'll focus less on the more "futuristic" ramblings and more on current reality. It's fun to dream but it's about time we see some reality!!

Thanks y'all for keeping me entertained and interested.

You lost me for good, Night Rider, with your post about Tequila's Restaurant & Cantina. It was uncalled for and racist.



Is it taboo to bring up the topic of illegal aliens? There are thousands of them in Green Bay, in case you didn't know. It's not racist to bring that up, and it's typical you toss that out. I'm not going to give you my resume of ethnic friends, I don't need to prove anything to you. I have a tried out a few authentic Mexican restaurants in Green Bay, & overall my experience was fairly good. I just pointed out the trend of Mexican restaurants popping up all over and tied it to the illegal immigration topic.

Is it taboo to bring up the topic of illegal aliens? There are thousands of them in Green Bay, in case you didn't know.

The difference is that you specifically referenced the opening of Tequila's in your post about illegal immigrants opening up businesses. This infers that the new restaurant is run by illegal immigrants (I have no idea if they are or not). My point is that stereotypes, racism, etc. should be kept off this board and we should focus on the development aspect.

Personally, I love all of the small unique cultural establishments opening up. If somebody is willing to open up a business anywhere in our community that adds to the tax base and doesn't bring additional problems to the area that I am all in support.

If there really are other real developments like the Lofts on Adams or the building at Walnut/Washington or a good new restaurant moving into 'the stein', etc about to happen, then maybe I'll focus less on the more "futuristic" ramblings and more on current reality. It's fun to dream but it's about time we see some reality!!

Thanks y'all for keeping me entertained and interested.

Puant, keep the futuristic posts coming. I don't believe Danillo meant it as a slam at all, just offering his views on the subject. Personally, I love the multitude of opinions we get and look at it more as a brainstorming session. It gets the rest of us thinking and truly contributes to the conversation. Keep up the great posts (and everybody else, too)!

This infers that the new restaurant is run by illegal immigrants (I have no idea if they are or not).


I was referring to the customer base. I didn't try to imply the owners were illegal at all.


Personally, I love all of the small unique cultural establishments opening up. If somebody is willing to open up a business anywhere in our community that adds to the tax base and doesn't bring additional problems to the area that I am all in support.

I agree.

There are thousands of them in Green Bay, in case you didn't know.

Thousands? Really? Do you have actual, you know, facts, that back that up? Or, (more likely) did you just pull that number out of thin air? Are you trying to suggest that every Hispanic person in Green Bay is an illegal? The fact that someone is Hispanic, does not make them an illegal immigrant. So suggest otherwise is racist, and has no place on this board.

Is it taboo to bring up the topic of illegal aliens? There are thousands of them in Green Bay, in case you didn't know. It's not racist to bring that up, and it's typical you toss that out. I'm not going to give you my resume of ethnic friends, I don't need to prove anything to you. I have a tried out a few authentic Mexican restaurants in Green Bay, & overall my experience was fairly good. I just pointed out the trend of Mexican restaurants popping up all over and tied it to the illegal immigration topic.

1. First of all, you've criticized me and others on this board for political or off-topic posts. On occasion, you've had a point. So what does the subject of illegal aliens have to do with this board, which focuses on development issues and the like? It was a political rant.

2. Secondly, your post was all about guilt by association. Unless you have information that the people running Tequila's are illegal or somehow in violation of the law, I assume — like I assume for non-Hispanics in this town — that they're good people and good citizens.

3. In general, ethnic restaurants — Hispanic or otherwise — are good for business, seems to me, and good for downtowns. Since something like 10 or 15% of the City of Green Bay's population is now Hispanic (going by memory), it's only natural there'd be more Hispanic restaurants here. The new Tequila's should attract people of all stripes. And first and second-generation Hispanics represent yet another target audience to live or bring downtown.

4. In some communities around the country, Hispanics are treated second-class (I'm sure we're all shocked to hear that). You know the treatment. Dirty looks. Nasty comments. Dismissed or ignored. Spit on, I heard. And, certainly, worse. My ancestors were German and felt some of that here during the wars, especially World War I. I won't fall into that trap. (During World War I, rioters marched down Washington Street and tore down from the top of one building what they thought was a statue honoring Germania. It wasn't.)

5. You're certainly right that you have nothing to prove to me. And I realize I can come across as something of a school-marm here from time to time. But I like this board. This is not your typical local newspaper on-line forum, full of frequent character assassination, name-calling, shouting, slurs, distortions and the like. If this forum ever went that route, I'm outta here. Then you could say whatever you want without fear, perhaps, of anyone calling you on it.

The difference is that you specifically referenced the opening of Tequila's in your post about illegal immigrants opening up businesses. This infers that the new restaurant is run by illegal immigrants (I have no idea if they are or not). My point is that stereotypes, racism, etc. should be kept off this board and we should focus on the development aspect.

Personally, I love all of the small unique cultural establishments opening up. If somebody is willing to open up a business anywhere in our community that adds to the tax base and doesn't bring additional problems to the area that I am all in support.

Exactly.

APAC plans on adding 500 more workers downtown bringing their total to 1,250. I am sure that this helps businesses like Subway, Erbert and Gerberts, etc which is a good thing.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091119/GPG03/911190550/1247/APAC-expects-to-add-500-employees

Thousands? Really? Do you have actual, you know, facts, that back that up? Or, (more likely) did you just pull that number out of thin air? Are you trying to suggest that every Hispanic person in Green Bay is an illegal? The fact that someone is Hispanic, does not make them an illegal immigrant. So suggest otherwise is racist, and has no place on this board.

I don't know where you live, but I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt there are thousands of illegals in Green Bay. There have been numerous articles that put the Hispanic population between 10 & 20 thousand. There are also articles that suggest the percentage of illegals among the hispanic population is fairly high, putting the amount of illegals easily in the 1,000's. I never said if you're hispanic you're illegal. I'm done commenting (well, for now) on the illegal issue. It's a huge problem across the country. I'm sure amnesty is headed down the pipe & they won't be illegal for long. My initial comment regarding the illegal population wasn't too distract the development topics on this board. It was more of a joke to suggest if the law gets enforced we're going to have some serious problems with keeping certain businesses open.

APAC plans on adding 500 more workers downtown bringing their total to 1,250. I am sure that this helps businesses like Subway, Erbert and Gerberts, etc which is a good thing.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091119/GPG03/911190550/1247/APAC-expects-to-add-500-employees

Good news on APAC. The article says the Baylake City Center is not entirely owned by Baylake Bank. The bank owns the first floor, it says, while Smet Construction Services owns the second, which it leases to APAC. Doesn't Smet also own the Chamber of Commerce building on Broadway? I wonder if the company is becoming, if not a developer, perhaps a downtown property owner of some scale.

Well, Danillo, I hear ya and I see where you are coming from but I still don't think I'm wrong. That said I enjoy a good debate, let's not let this get into an argument, especially since our disagreement is really pretty minor. Could we both be right, at least to some degree? Well it's all speculative so probably not even worth an argument.

But not arguing would take all the fun out of it! If I disagree with someone, I'm going to state my case directly. Let that not be taken as a personal attack (I'm not saying you think that, I'm speaking in general terms). Even GBM, who I rarely see eye-to-eye with, and who's writing style I don't always appreciate, I'm sure he's a nice guy, and that he wants what's best for the downtown and the city. I don't have a problem with anyone on here. I'll state my case, but that's the fun of it. If we're avoiding arguments, that's going to take a lot of the fun away.

The difference is that you specifically referenced the opening of Tequila's in your post about illegal immigrants opening up businesses. This infers that the new restaurant is run by illegal immigrants (I have no idea if they are or not). My point is that stereotypes, racism, etc. should be kept off this board and we should focus on the development aspect..

I didn't take Night Riders comments as racist, and I certainly didn't take any inference that the new restaurant was run by illegals. I was actually surprised you inferred that, because I didn't see that in the message at all, and I don't think it was intended. I don't think I agree that if all of the illegals left tomorrow that most of the Mexican restaurants would close, but I don't think there was anything offensive about Mr. Night's comments.

If there's one thing that I love more and would advocate for more than the Downtown, it's our National Parks (I'm going somewhere with this...). I love them, and I visit them as often as I can. I've been to nearly 100 National Parks Service sites, large and small, in the past 5 or six years, and that's unique sites, some of which I have been to more than once (really, I'm going to tie this in to the conversation...). I was using terms like "America's Best Idea" well before the Ken Burns series was announced, because I really think it's true.

A few years ago, I had the profound experience of visiting Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument on the Arizona/Mexico border. Organ Pipe Cactus is, if not the largest, close to the largest, preserve in the Sonoran Desert, and specifically a subset of that desert where the organ pipe cactus after which the park is named live. This is a pretty threatened ecosystem, and one that as you can imagine is heavily dependent upon the availability of water. I had a great hike there, but that's not the main lesson I took away from the visit.

To get to the and from the park, I had to cross a border patrol checkpoint. You see, that area is a major crossing for illegals. There's a wall being built on the border at the south end of the park, and walls work so I hope this helps. I suspect it will only slow the flow of illegals through the park. Being a wilderness area, it's a great place for illegals to hide as they move into the country. Logically, they camp in tree-covered, low lying areas... the gullies where what little water that exists in the park flows (and even then sporadically). As a percentage of the park it isn't that much space, but by destroying those areas the entire ecosystem is threatened.

I have some sympathy for these people as individuals, most are just trying to make a better life for their family. But they are also breaking the law and threatening something I hold dear. Because of their presence, in nearly half the park it is recommended that visitors not hike, as it is not safe. Even if an illegal you encountered didn't cross for criminal reasons, if they are desperate they may be dangerous. Not everyone crossing is well intentioned, the visitors center is named after a park ranger who was murdered in the line of duty, trying to stop drug runners from using the park to bring drugs into the country.

I think we need immigration reform, and I think well intentioned immigrants should be allowed into the country. I have no problems with the Hispanic population in this area. My reason for relaying that story is that my experienced taught me that the flow of illegals is a very complex issue, and one that has far ranging effects of which the situation at Organ Pipe Cactus is only one. We need to have honest debate about these things. This board probably isn't the place for that debate, but I find that accusing someone like Night Rider of racism for their expressing a view which really said nothing about the character of Hispanic people is very dangerous. If you disagree with the facts as presented (that a loss of illegals would close many restaurants), then disagree on the merits of his point, but lets not call someone racist because they make a point you disagree with that is tangentially related to race. The issue is too important for that.

APAC plans on adding 500 more workers downtown bringing their total to 1,250. I am sure that this helps businesses like Subway, Erbert and Gerberts, etc which is a good thing.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091119/GPG03/911190550/1247/APAC-expects-to-add-500-employees

I'm glad that there's going to be more workers downtown and appreciate that there's places downtown that offer food at a price-point that appeals to those workers. I just wish there was a little more variety that wasn't just a sandwich shop. Something more like a delicatessen that offers sandwiches plus variety of cold pasta dishes, hot entrees and soups. And it should be open for breakfast too. Maybe that might be the next type of place to open up downtown.

Oh for God's sake, of course it's racist. I'm sure many on this board, myself included, don't want to get sidelined into unproductive discussions of such emotion and magnitude, but please don't influence anyone into believing such comments are neutral. Let's keep them off the board.

I would love that type of choice too. I also wish there was a fast food place downtown like a Mcdonald's or Burger King. I actually miss having those options that were in the mall.

I'm glad that there's going to be more workers downtown and appreciate that there's places downtown that offer food at a price-point that appeals to those workers. I just wish there was a little more variety that wasn't just a sandwich shop. Something more like a delicatessen that offers sandwiches plus variety of cold pasta dishes, hot entrees and soups. And it should be open for breakfast too. Maybe that might be the next type of place to open up downtown.

Last thing I'll say on this... I just don't see anything racist in what he said, and I don't think we should be so quick to accuse people of making racist statements.

Regarding the food deal, I'd love to have a real deli. Where's the pastrami? Where's the corned beef? I guess some of it's at the Stein or whatever it's going to be called now. I know it's another form of sandwich, but wouldn't a place that serves italian beef, pastrami on rye, or such similar things be great on Washington St. or along the CityDeck. A stand-and-eat or grab-n-go type place? Maybe some of this exists and I just don't know about it.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/1250281413.jpg http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/4july1918parade.jpg

Here's more of the scoop on the Holiday Parade/CityDeck festivities. Wish they ran parades down the main streets of downtown Green Bay like they did years ago — streets like Broadway, Walnut, Main and Washington. Larger photo above shows a military parade (two batteries of the 121st Field Artillery) in 1917 running south on Washington and turning west onto Walnut. The wagons or caissons are moving along one side of Washington, perhaps trying to avoid getting wheels caught in the streetcar tracks. The smaller photo shows the 1918 Fourth of July parade (Celebrate Americafest!) from the same angle.

greenbayhub.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091119/GPG05/91119048

Puant, keep the futuristic posts coming. I don't believe Danillo meant it as a slam at all, just offering his views on the subject. Personally, I love the multitude of opinions we get and look at it more as a brainstorming session. It gets the rest of us thinking and truly contributes to the conversation. Keep up the great posts (and everybody else, too)!

Don't worry, I can't stop. Like Blind Melon said, "keep on dreaming boy, cause when you stop dreamin' it's time to die."

I was not in the least bit upset by anyone's disagreement. How boring would it be if we all agreed all the time?

It has always been my hope that everyone here feels free to post their opinions without fear of ridicule, as a true brainstorming session on future development. Well, OK. Sometimes ridicule is fun and necessary. Some ideas like the trolley thing might evolve into deeper discussion and even debate where then arguments and defense is OK, but I hope that debate or argument is never about race because there's nothing logical about racism because that's simply indefensible.

P.S. I saw some updated, more detailed plans for the brownfield stadium today. "Puant Park" is coming along very nicely. OK well I'm sure that won't be the name unless I donate a LOT for naming rights. Let's just hope that credit can loosen up a bit pretty soon so that this thing can truly get closer to reality. The Dow seems to be charging up and hopefully that's the barometer of better things to come. Anyone out there starting to see credit loosening up at all?

Anyone out there starting to see credit loosening up at all?

Well from what I have observed there is construction occurring on the fringe areas. Residential development has all but dried up and it has been that way for almost 3 years, Puant as you should know we developed way too many parcels and are slowly working off that inventory. I would think that the credit must be loosing because you are seeing both commercial (remember that is the next big scary bubble to break) and NEW residential development start to surface. I read that the banks are still being required to maintain sufficient capitol levels to cover future losses, so locally it seems that the small banks usually do the majority of the lending, recently both Bay Lake and Associated have been mentioned as not healthy enough, so to put $ down on a project that may not succeed doesn't seem likely.

It would be interesting if something like a public bond offering was made to secure financing of the bullfrogs stadium, or maybe if and when the economy improves and we get an RTA established that we get that sweet trolly line that is often spoken about here.

For the record, I think that regional passenger rail connecting GB to Appleton, Oshkosh, Milwaukee, & Chicago stands a much, much better chance of success than the trolley idea in terms of being built and then also being actually used, especially for the Green Bay area and our unique situation.

Now, if that passenger rail system is built, then I think that at least a short circulator of some kind ought to tie into the rail depot and the transit center. Whether that link be streetcar or bus maybe doesn't matter. Honestly, I worry about some aspects of the trolley idea. First, I don't know if the tracks could be readily put across the bridges. Second, I worry about the conflict between trolleys and cars especially on the busy roads. There will inevitably be outcry by car drivers if they have to share the road with trolleys.

Regarding the food deal, I'd love to have a real deli. Where's the pastrami? Where's the corned beef? ... I know it's another form of sandwich, but wouldn't a place that serves italian beef, pastrami on rye, or such similar things be great on Washington St. or along the CityDeck. A stand-and-eat or grab-n-go type place? Maybe some of this exists and I just don't know about it.

That's what I'm talkin' about, a sandwich that isn't 85% bread, but enough to hold onto the meat. Rye and Sourdough breads holding deli meat that's shaved right there before your eyes. And for the end of the day, warm comfort food like a hot dish that you can take home for dinner.

Stand-and-eat, grab-n-go for a quick ten minute lunch during a half-hour lunch period may be just what DT needs.

Anyone out there starting to see credit loosening up at all?

On a personal note, I have two credit cards. About a year or year and a half ago, the limit on one (from Associated Bank) was cut from $3,000 to $400. For the other card (from UW Credit Union), the limit was just increased last month from $500 to $1000. Not sure if there's a message there. I read that bank failures around the country are expected to peak next year.

I'm glad that there's going to be more workers downtown and appreciate that there's places downtown that offer food at a price-point that appeals to those workers. I just wish there was a little more variety that wasn't just a sandwich shop. Something more like a delicatessen that offers sandwiches plus variety of cold pasta dishes, hot entrees and soups. And it should be open for breakfast too. Maybe that might be the next type of place to open up downtown.

Would a delicatessen on both sides of the river succeed in this market (think Parisi's)?

About two years ago a good friend of mine contacted me with an idea of opening a true delicatessen in Green Bay. He, being originally from New York, felt a void in our great city of Green Bay. As a Restaurant Management major, of course I was stoked. Of course the first market I thought of was downtown, what better location. Since then we've written a business plan, and have been feeling out the feasibility of the market. Your comments have fueled a new fire within me. Currently we are finishing up our college degrees, but would love to get the ball rolling on this one.

Any angel investors out there willing to take a calculated risk (one more calculated than Vetter's Watermark)?

Any angel investors out their willing to take a calculated risk (one more calculated than Vetter's Watermark)?


No on the investing, but I'll take a deli sandwich to go.

Riverfront's CityDeck opens to public Saturday

Green Bay's newest park opens to the public Saturday after the annual Christmas parade.

CityDeck, the riverfront project under construction for more than a year, will get its first public use when the University of Wisconsin Badger band plays its way down the boardwalk.


the rest here; http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091120/GPG03/911200518/1247/CityDeck-opens-to-public-Saturday

WARNING, avoid viewing comments section!

Some people believe that some of Green Bay's economic troubles are completely dependent upon its government officials...It really feels that the pessimism just from the citizens helps to keep the city down.

Traingang.
I will completely agree with Puant, again...We keep forgetting that GB had streetcars in the early 20th century, a time when the city was smaller in size. They worked then, they can work now. One route that I think could work would a line on Shawano Avenue from downtown to either St. Mary's or to hwy 41. And a line on the east side on Main st to I-43
When we talk about these streetcars, we are not talking about expensive light rail, streetcars are a much cheaper, single vehicle mode of transportation.


-one simple reason why i would choose streetcars over buses here, I don't trust buses in snow.

Would a delicatessen on both sides of the river succeed in this market (think Parisi's)?

It might being that Parisi's is just outside of walking distance from the thousands of workers on the East side that only have ½ an hour for lunch.

Matt, check your private messages in the UserCP for this board. I sent you a message.