That's what I'm talkin' about, a sandwich that isn't 85% bread, but enough to hold onto the meat. Rye and Sourdough breads holding deli meat that's shaved right there before your eyes. And for the end of the day, warm comfort food like a hot dish that you can take home for dinner.

Stand-and-eat, grab-n-go for a quick ten minute lunch during a half-hour lunch period may be just what DT needs.

this is a perfect seg for a question I've pondered for quite a while. When talking about starting a new business, everyone knows - "LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION", right? But is that REALLY true?

I'm thinking specifically about restaurants now, but trying to get to another point too..

We all know that the failure rate for restaurants is very high, but why? Some are successful - extremely successful. How many times have you driven down a street (I won't say "walk", this is GB after all..:lol:) & noticed a new restaurant that you never knew existed? It's happened to me several times recently. It seems like no one advertises their new business - just turns on the "open" sign & assumes that people will come. Isn't that Marketing 101? Let people know that you exist? My guess is that people are good cooks & think, "I'm going to open a restaurant" even though they don't know the first thing about running a business.

OK, that said, (still not to my point yet, but getting there), let's say you have fantastic food. You advertise. You run specials to get people in the door. You make sure that your service is first-rate. How important is location? I'm am a foodie, of sorts. I love finding little restaurants that have good food, are locally owned, are not chains, etc. If I hear about a place I want to try, I go. It doesn't really matter where it is, since that's my destination, not an afterthought. Of course, having a good location will always help, but is being in a less than desirable location really a death-knell for your restaurant? I tend to think not.

OK, on to my point. Downtown. It has been discussed to death. The chicken & the egg. Do we need people living downtown before businesses will follow, or will people follow the businesses? Do we need a trolley to get people down there or do we need people to ride the trolley?

I really believe that we need STUFF downtown worth visiting. People are creatures of habit. If there wasn't anything downtown last year to get you down there, you're probably not going to make a point to go this year - but if you start going, you may keep going. These are all reasons that I think the City Deck is a great thing. Not just the Deck, but the events planned on the Deck. We need to give people a reason to go. Once they start going, they may keep going.

Gosh, I feel like Puant now with this dissertation.... :lol:

It might being that Parisi's is just outside of walking distance from the thousands of workers on the East side that only have ½ an hour for lunch.

Matt, check your private messages in the UserCP for this board. I sent you a message.

I would tend to agree, I think it could be successful. It's something that I think is a huge hole downtown. Quick, good food within walking distance for so many of the banks & offices down there. I'd love to see a deli that serves good sandwiches (house-made corned beef & pastrami, anyone?), pre-made salads for "grab & go", pizza by the slice, pasta salads, etc.

There's nothing I hate more than the (I hereby coin this phrase!) Sysco-ification of restaurants. If you were blindfolded & taken to a chain restaurant, you'd be hard-pressed to figure out where you were. It's all the same garbage - fries out of a freezer bag. Poppers out of a freezer bag. Frozen, pre-formed burgers. Pre-cooked chicken with (my personal favorite) grill marks painted on. Yuck.

No one seems to make stuff from scratch anymore. One of the things I LOVED about the old Feta'z were the fries. They actually cut the potatos in-house & fried them to order. Best fries ever!!

When I used to work downtown in MKE, I loved going to Water Front Deli on Water St.

That's what I'm talkin' about, a sandwich that isn't 85% bread, but enough to hold onto the meat. Rye and Sourdough breads holding deli meat that's shaved right there before your eyes. And for the end of the day, warm comfort food like a hot dish that you can take home for dinner.

Stand-and-eat, grab-n-go for a quick ten minute lunch during a half-hour lunch period may be just what DT needs.

I may have mentioned this before, but when I go to Chicago I often eat at a chain there called Portillo's. It reminds me a lot of what you are talking about, excellent Italian Beef sandwiches and more, quick in and out, rather unique, very popular there, and I think it might work well here. Anyone else ever been there? I can see it: "Danillo's Portillo's"

The MWRRI (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/state/docs/railmidwest.pdf) seems to indicate that Green Bay, Appleton, Neenah, Oshkosh, Fond du Lac, West Bend, northwest Milwaukee, and then downtown Milwaukee will be the stops on the proposed Milwaukee to Green Bay intercity train. Unfortunately it seems like that train will be a long way off, but let's think about the future. Once you've got the track upgraded and usable at 110 mph, then what else can happen?

My plan is to create a commuter train system along the entire Milwaukee-Green Bay route. You'd still have the "express" trains as shown above that operate about 7 times daily, and would fill the need of people needing to go to a different city for a day once in a while, and connect all the residents of those cities with the Amtrak national network in Milwaukee/Chicago. But then you'd have 10-20 additional trains per day operating as local trains or commuter trains, depending on how you see it. The stops would be something like this:

Green Bay, Ashwaubenon, De Pere, Wrightstown, Kaukauna, Little Chute, Appleton, Neenah, Oshkosh, North FdL, FdL, Eden, Campbellsport, Kewaskum, West Bend, Jackson, Granville, [somewhere], State St, Miller Park [event use only], Menomonee Valley, Downtown Milwaukee

Add to those a few stop that make great sense as a park-n-ride spot, such as at STH 172, CTH J & 41, STH 441 & Northland, Breezewood Ln, or Richfield.

Here's a map of my proposed Eastern Wisconsin Commuter Rail (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=101611748157792987226.0004787f4387b0f62d2f3&z=8).

That commuter line would be unlike most commuter systems that are heavily tilted toward a downtown, like Chicago. On this system, many of those stops could be a work destination. There would be a mix every day of people going north or south.

As time has gone on, many people in NE Wisconsin have treated the Fox Cities/Green Bay as one marketplace for jobs. More people live in GB and work in Appleton or Neenah than ever before, and this has shown up as heavier traffic on US 41. Some couples work in different cities. This commuter train would serve to improve those people's lives, and also to expand the possible jobs for other people who wouldn't want to drive that distance every day.

Once the system is in place, GB would need to get its transit act together to integrate its bus system with the train. How many people live in the Fox Cities that go to UWGB every day for work or class? What about the insurance giants around town? Or Schnieder? I'd say there would be enough people for at least a dedicated shuttle to those places.

And of course, this would only serve to strengthen the urban cores at these stations. It'll create more demand for jobs and homes nearby. Just look at Chicago's Metra system... it is basically a string of pearls revived by the trains... useful downtowns with lots of housing.

The incremental cost over just the intercity train would be minimal, since the biggest expense with medium-speed rail is upgrading the track. I suspect many cities would pay to build their commuter rail station. Plus, at least to begin with, there's no reason to have much more at a station than just the platform and a small open-air shelter.

My map shows a few potential routings of the route from Fond du Lac to Milwaukee. The MWRRI seems to show it going on a rail corridor that is partly abandoned. The section from Eden to West Bend is currently used as the Eisenbahn State Trail. I have doubts that the trail will get ripped up, and I don't think they'll buy land adjacent to the trail to put in a rail line. So I'm guessing they'll take the rail line that goes through Lomira.

If anyone has any suggestions for where a good commuter station would be located, I'd be happy to add it to the map. Danillo and I discussed it today, and we felt that a station between Appleton and Neenah would be good, but we don't know the area well enough to say where. I also think Oshkosh should have another stop, but I don't know where.

I think metro Milwaukee would have a handful of stops on the way into downtown, but I didn't want to guess where those might be. Probably the Tower Automotive site, in addition to the couple I showed in the Menomonee Valley.
I just want to say what a great post. I would use rail for certain things if it was available in this area but it would not be my primary transportaion choice.

The MWRRI (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/state/docs/railmidwest.pdf) seems to indicate that Green Bay, Appleton, Neenah, Oshkosh, Fond du Lac, West Bend, northwest Milwaukee, and then downtown Milwaukee will be the stops on the proposed Milwaukee to Green Bay intercity train. Unfortunately it seems like that train will be a long way off, but let's think about the future. Once you've got the track upgraded and usable at 110 mph, then what else can happen?

If we really wanted this, it could be done in a year or less, especially if we started with a "regular" 79 MPH train (before you knee-jerk react on this, please read on a few paragraphs down).

My plan is to create a commuter train system along the entire Milwaukee-Green Bay route. You'd still have the "express" trains as shown above that operate about 7 times daily, and would fill the need of people needing to go to a different city for a day once in a while, and connect all the residents of those cities with the Amtrak national network in Milwaukee/Chicago. But then you'd have 10-20 additional trains per day operating as local trains or commuter trains, depending on how you see it. The stops would be something like this:

Green Bay, Ashwaubenon, De Pere, Wrightstown, Kaukauna, Little Chute, Appleton, Neenah, Oshkosh, North FdL, FdL, Eden, Campbellsport, Kewaskum, West Bend, Jackson, Granville, [somewhere], State St, Miller Park [event use only], Menomonee Valley, Downtown Milwaukee

Love the plan! Too bad the airports in Appleton and Green Bay could not be connected though. I do see that Wittman Field in Oshkosh is pretty closely serviced...I wonder how many EAAers would use the train? I know many people don't actually "fly in" and even these who do, many fly to nearby airports that are less busy like FDL and then find another way into Oshkosh. But regardless of just that annual event, this corridor is so heavily travelled every day for by so many, I strongly believe there exists a strong niche for this. I don't want to beat this to death but I think it almost certainly will be a well-used system almost right off the bat but especially after people come to realize it and/or gas gets to be priced high again.



Here's a map of my proposed Eastern Wisconsin Commuter Rail (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=101611748157792987226.0004787f4387b0f62d2f3&z=8).

Thanks for doing the google map route. Man, when I study this, I think about how handy this would be and how often I would use it. I think the stations you list are about what I was thinking also. Not sure that we need another station between Appleton and Neenah.

That commuter line would be unlike most commuter systems that are heavily tilted toward a downtown, like Chicago. On this system, many of those stops could be a work destination. There would be a mix every day of people going north or south.

Have you presented this idea to the group that's pushing for the passenger rail (NEW Rails)? I wonder if anyone from that group reads this forum?

As time has gone on, many people in NE Wisconsin have treated the Fox Cities/Green Bay as one marketplace for jobs. More people live in GB and work in Appleton or Neenah than ever before, and this has shown up as heavier traffic on US 41. Some couples work in different cities. This commuter train would serve to improve those people's lives, and also to expand the possible jobs for other people who wouldn't want to drive that distance every day.

Yes! Precisely one of the reasons why I think the passenger rail is a very feasible plan, I have little doubt that people would relatively quickly latch on to the idea provided service is good.


And of course, this would only serve to strengthen the urban cores at these stations. It'll create more demand for jobs and homes nearby. Just look at Chicago's Metra system... it is basically a string of pearls revived by the trains... useful downtowns with lots of housing.

Problem is, I've been told, is that criminals will ride the train up from Chicago and Milwaukee to steal all of Green Bay's TVs and stuff. I guess these criminals will then take all the stolen goods back down to Chicago and Milwaukee somehow, presumably on the train. Does the MWRRS plan include a "loot car"?

The incremental cost over just the intercity train would be minimal, since the biggest expense with medium-speed rail is upgrading the track. I suspect many cities would pay to build their commuter rail station. Plus, at least to begin with, there's no reason to have much more at a station than just the platform and a small open-air shelter.

How much time would you really save by upgrading the track to 110 MPH, especially when there would be so many stops all along the way, would it really be worth it? I mean, how many stretches are long enough to actually get up to 110 MPH? Start at 79 MPH and then then the plan gets very simple and really cheap (relatively speaking). Perhaps only upgrade the track on the longer rural stretches where 110 MPH is practically feasible. Anyone have any insight on this? Am I way off base with this thinking?

My map shows a few potential routings of the route from Fond du Lac to Milwaukee. The MWRRI seems to show it going on a rail corridor that is partly abandoned. The section from Eden to West Bend is currently used as the Eisenbahn State Trail. I have doubts that the trail will get ripped up, and I don't think they'll buy land adjacent to the trail to put in a rail line. So I'm guessing they'll take the rail line that goes through Lomira.

I love the trails but I thought the whole point of "rails to trails" was to preserve the rail corridors just in case trains ever needed the route again.

Kramerica, excellent post! I had to take some time to try to digest it all. Anyone else have comment?

I get your drift. But I'd argue there ARE reasons to go downtown. It has the largest concentration of office buildings in the area, with something like 10,000 people or more who work there. It's second only to Oneida Street in the concentration of restaurants and hotels in the area. The largest concentration, I believe, of apartments and condos in the area. The largest concentration of government offices (city, county, state, federal, school district) in the area. The largest concentration of banks in the area. Perhaps outside of the Stadium District, the largest concentration of nightclubs in the area. Host of Green Bay's major festivals: Artstreet, Bayfest, Celebrate Americafest, Tall Ships, etc. Concerts and other special events. The Fox River, with two scenic bridges. KI Convention Center. Central Library. Neville Public Museum. Meyer Theatre. Green Bay's premiere historic architectural showpiece, the Brown County Courthouse and Courthouse Square, including the Law Enforcement Center. Historic churches. YMCA & YWCA. Transit Center. Fox River Trail. CityDeck. Leicht Park. Veterans Memorial Park. The port and the Foxy Lady. Farmers markets. Micro-breweries and a winery. A boatbuilder. Some retail. Perhaps a Bullfrogs Stadium.
Towerpark you are correct those are all excellent reasons to go to downtown Green Bay but something is missing, when you go downtown there is little foot traffic and and this also a major part to revitalization, while a lot of what you said draws huge crowds its usually for a couple of days. They really need to bring back stores to downtown to help with attracting people on a regular basis, sadly I don't think that is going to be an easy thing to do.

Even GBM, who I rarely see eye-to-eye with, and who's writing style I don't always appreciate, I'm sure he's a nice guy, and that he wants what's best for the downtown and the city.

WOW I never knew I had style when I wrote, I just hunt and peck with one finger each hand and hope it hits the right letter or close to it. As for being a nice guy, please don't ask my wife of 27 years , it would be a shame to spoil the image for you.:lol:

this is a perfect seg for a question I've pondered for quite a while. When talking about starting a new business, everyone knows - "LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION", right? But is that REALLY true?



Generally speaking, the farther your business is from 'the strip' the more you have to spend on advertising. But that's not always the case because Pancheros and Hu Hot still ran expensive radio and TV ad campaigns to get their names out there.

In our example of the downtown delicatessen, it's most likely just a small independent and the adverting budget wouldn't cover the cost of radio and TV campaigns. Thankfully, today's technology allows small operators to market inexpensively through social media. A business owner can target their advertising directly to interested consumers through updates to their website via notification through Twitter, Facebook and blogging. This is especially useful to our delicatessen because it's a traditional deli and not just a sandwich shop. The definition of a deli is a restaurant where the meals are prepared in advance, ready for purchase. This is unlike the traditional restaurant where food is made to order, thereby making service time longer than many people have. An example of this is lasagna. You go into many grocery store delis and there's a pretty good chance that there will be a full restaurant-size pan in the hot case and you can get a meal with the entree and a side dish in a matter of minutes.

Now the small delicatessen could run a daily dish that changes every day and won't be repeated for another month. Every day the operator can notify its customers directly on Twitter, a website, or blog in the morning about what the daily dish is. This keeps office workers interested in what today's special is and keeps the deli on the consumer's mind. In time it will become 'their' place to eat several times a week. Repeat business.

To prevent the Sysco-ification of the place, food needs to be made from scratch. It's amazing how many restaurants don't really make the food they sell, just open it up, heat and serve. Most places that sell soup do this. A few years ago I went to a Sysco food show with Steve Rank from Al's Hamburgers as a guest 'consultant' and we came to a display pushing a frozen entree that's easy enough to make from scratch and Steve made the comment, "I can't believe anyone would sell this because it's so easy to make, I mean that's what restaurants do, is make food."

To sum up the answer, having a location that's out of the way, disadvantage can be overcome through low cost Social Media Marketing.

Interesting thoughts on the potential for common-carrier rail passenger service in the US 41 corridor.

:yes:

The latest chatter that I have heard from the organized proponents has pretty much forgotten about the former CNW route southeastward from FdL via West Bend, mainly due to worries related to NIMBY.

Another potential commuter-service line - and I doubt that I will live long enough to see it, but you never know and it does make long-term sense to me - is the CN's ex WC, exx FRVR, exxx CNW, nee MLSW line between Appleton and at least New London. Stops could be at New London (terminal?), Hortonville, Greenville, the FVTC area and perhaps an 'event only' stop by Fox Cities Stadium (Wisconsin Timber Rattlers) with its other terminal being in downtown Appleton. Depending on what ever happens to the now derelict former KMart site, as well as the other surrounding (and fast blighting :no: ) development, on W College Ave in Appleton, a stop could be included there, too.

As for the Green Bay line, I would also include an 'event only' platform at Lombardi Ave in Green Bay, it should be especially popular on 'Gold' package Packer gamedays (in fact, I'm a bit surprised that nobody has tried yet to get a gameday charter service going).

Mike

As for the Green Bay line, I would also include an 'event only' platform at Lombardi Ave in Green Bay, it should be especially popular on 'Gold' package Packer gamedays (in fact, I'm a bit surprised that nobody has tried yet to get a gameday charter service going).

exactly...or a train that goes east and west to/from Green Bay and Minneapolis as another game train for football, at least.
just something alternative to driving or flying.

Did anyone make it to the CityDeck opening? We took our kids down for the parade and the opening and it was a good time.

I really am happy with the CityDeck. I thing it is a great addition to downtown! Once the other stalled projects get done it will really bring things together.

On a related note, my kids strongly believe that the Mayor must know who they are... They make sure to tell him that he knows them every time they see him. It is so overboard! :lol:

These were all taken this year by photographer Chad Davis.
http://phixation.com/misc/portplaza/

The downtown mall has grown to become Dixie Square's cousin.

^^Sponge, thanks for that link! (note, you need to add a www in the web address like this:

http://www.phixation.com/misc/portplaza

The apparent water damage that's occurring is amazing...is the roof leaking as bad as it appears? wow. sorta sad in a way. Someone put that place out of its misery.

Had to work today, so didn't get to see the festivities downtown. But here are some of the Press-Gazette photos from the parade today and one PG photo from the CityDeck opening. The article says there was a "large group of people" at the boardwalk opening. Anyone take photos?

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091121/GPG0101/91121017/1978/Green-Bay-holds-grand-opening-for-CityDeck

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde-39-2.jpg

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde-41.jpg

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde-42.jpg

Those pictures are amazing. I also find it amazing how quickly an unmaintained building goes bad. The city is going to have to knock this building down soon.

These were all taken this year by photographer Chad Davis.
http://phixation.com/misc/portplaza/

The downtown mall has grown to become Dixie Square's cousin.

Those pictures are amazing. I also find it amazing how quickly an unmaintained building goes bad. The city is going to have to knock this building down soon.
No argument from me with that. I just hope that someone can find a good new home for that center court clock.

Mike

I was at the CityDeck opening and it was great, then just now I'm back from checking it out in the evening. They don't have the under-bench lights on yet, but it was still cool to be down there. I'll probably head back down tomorrow at some point. I'm too excited about this, and the weather is so nice, I gotta use it.

What I was thinking about while I was down there: I visited Winnipeg, and saw The Forks there, 8 or 9 years ago now. After that trip I'd walk around downtown and think how great a riverfront space that had boat slips and cool seating and connections to the Fox River Trail would be, but that it would probably be a really long time before that ever actually happened, if ever. I'd have never dreamed that by today I'd be sitting in just such a space. It's not that me wanting it made it happen, but I knew what I thought would work and when a plan came along that fit in with what I was thinking, I was a better advocate for that. Similarly, it may seem now that rail or trolleys or other things we think are good ideas are a long, long way off, but who knows? Talking about these things and refining our ideas isn't going to make them happen, but when opportunities present themselves it makes us better advocates for those things. What may seem almost impossible now may end up becoming reality much faster than we'd ever have thought possible.

No argument from me with that. I just hope that someone can find a good new home for that center court clock.

Mike

I believe the clock was sold to a town in Mississippi. Too bad, I was hoping it would stay in town.

No argument from me with that. I just hope that someone can find a good new home for that center court clock.

Mike

From city website

2. Request to consider sale of the clock in the mall.

R. Strong explained that in the past an appraisal came in around $50,000 for the clock. Approval was given for the City of Winona, Mississippi to purchase the clock for $36,000, but Winona was not able to put the financing package together to do that.

J. VanOss provided an update on the marketing of the clock. An appraisal in 2008 appraised the clock at $50,000. She put the clock up for auction and $4,900 was the highest price received on auction. She worked with a doctor at the Tower Clock on Mason Street, who is a member of the Watch and Clock Association and they had a meeting a couple months ago in Chicago. She sent him pictures of our clock and asked for a rough idea of what they thought the clock was worth and asked if they knew of any buyers. In the meantime, she researched people that might be interested in the bell and couldn’t find anyone interested. The Clock and Watch Association thought it was a very nice clock worth maybe $10,000 to $12,000. She tried to determine if there was any local interest in the clock and contacted East Town Mall, Bay Park Square, and Bellin Hospital. She contacted Winona, Mississippi again and they are still interested and agreed on a price of $6,000. She worked with a contractor and clock expert from Oshkosh and it will cost $9,800 to have the clock labeled, taken apart, and ready to ship. Winona will be responsible for this cost. In addition, it still has to be transported and re-erected in their City Hall. A Fed Ex employee has personal interest in returning the clock to Winona and is willing to donate the freight.

R. Strong stated a letter from the Mayor of Winona was received confirming full responsibility to enter into the contract to purchase the clock as is for the amount of $6,000 and responsibility for all costs to ship the clock.

H. Maier questioned how it was ever appraised at $50,000. J. VanOss stated it was an appraiser from New York and she contacted him to find out more about the clock and how he came up with the amount. He stated that the amount no longer stands due to the economy.

A motion was made by G. Delveaux and seconded by T. Weber to approve the sale of the clock in the mall for $6,000 to Winona, Mississippi per recommendation. Motion carried

.... It's not that me wanting it made it happen, but I knew what I thought would work and when a plan came along that fit in with what I was thinking, I was a better advocate for that. Similarly, it may seem now that rail or trolleys or other things we think are good ideas are a long, long way off, but who knows? Talking about these things and refining our ideas isn't going to make them happen, but when opportunities present themselves it makes us better advocates for those things. What may seem almost impossible now may end up becoming reality much faster than we'd ever have thought possible.

Amen brotha!

I suppose the amount of time we spend musing over these ideas could be considered a waste of time. I think you're right, though, sometimes the things we do on this little forum really matter.

I was at the CityDeck opening and it was great, then just now I'm back from checking it out in the evening.

My wife and I went back this evening as well. We sat on the reclining style benches. Kind of cool!


They don't have the under-bench lights on yet, but it was still cool to be down there.

I can't wait to see the rest of the lighting! It is kind of dark currently. I do really like the lighting on the trees, very nice!

If I remember correctly, it was sold for something like $6,000 with the town in Mississippi being responsible for removing it.

I believe the clock was sold to a town in Mississippi. Too bad, I was hoping it would stay in town.

Continuing on the subject of CityDeck, the Mayor did announced that during the summer on Wednesdays they will have downtown restaurants on the CityDeck selling food. I believe they are calling it 'Dine on the Deck'.

I love the fact that in the summer we are getting to the point where there is almost always something going on down here.

If they continue Leicht At Nite, which I really enjoyed last year, we will have the farmers market on tuesday, the CityDeck 'Dine on the Deck' on Wednesdays and Leicht At Nit on Thursday. More than enough to keep me busy!

Has anyone here visited East Town Mall lately? Their newly-redesigned entrance is now open.

~~

I knew they were selling the clock inside the Port Plaza/Washington Commons mall. What about the clock on the Adams St. entrance of the mall?

I had to giggle this morning as the news was reporting some of the plans for the deck downtown. One of his ideas is to dye the river green for St Pats day.......ummmm Mr Mayor if you actually ever looked at the river thats its natural color.......no need to waste taxpayer dollars on that idea. :)

I had to giggle this morning as the news was reporting some of the plans for the deck downtown. One of his ideas is to dye the river green for St Pats day.......ummmm Mr Mayor if you actually ever looked at the river thats its natural color.......no need to waste taxpayer dollars on that idea. :)

I agree GBM, and not only that, but that's Chicago's gig. Why not do something more unique to our area? What could we do on the City Deck that is uniquely Green Bay...Hmmmm.....

I GOT IT!! The city could hold a contest on the river where the contestants must craft and then pilot some floating devices using ONLY paper from the local mills. Creativity in design will be some of the points (the tissue boats could be crafted into shapes...like dead carp, for example).
Any of the contestants who are able to navigate their craft the entire length of the CityDeck without sinking will win additional points. THe losers get to take a swim in the lovely Fox River. No doubt this kind of contest would draw crowds down to the boardwalk, even GBM and his friends would surely show up for that! Maybe they all even participate with a school of paper mache floating dead carp....or a craft shaped into the likeness of Vetter floating on a roll of toilet paper...or a Brett Favre in a Viking craft (one that purposely sinks)...the ideas are endless! This event could be held the weekend of the first home Packer game, when it's still warm out. Could be the area's new tradition!

P.S. There already are "cardboard boat regatta" events held in various places in the country, including ones in Michigan and Sheboygan (http://www.gcbr.com/port.html). OK, so it's not exactly "uniquely" Green Bay but it is still fitting in that the Fox Valley is "Paper Valley" and all of that. Plus it's a proven fun event that draws a lot of people. Here's the schedule (http://www.gcbr.com/schedule.html), looks like there is room for more of these events in early September.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde-43.jpg

One more Press-Gazette photo from the CityDeck opening. Two-minute video at the link below. They have 35 event days planned at CityDeck for 2010 so far.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091122/GPG0101/911220684/1978/Video-photos-Families-take-first-walk-on-CityDeck

P.S. I saw some updated, more detailed plans for the brownfield stadium today. "Puant Park" is coming along very nicely.

Anything you might be at liberty to talk about or worth noting?

Would a delicatessen on both sides of the river succeed in this market (think Parisi's)?

About two years ago a good friend of mine contacted me with an idea of opening a true delicatessen in Green Bay. He, being originally from New York, felt a void in our great city of Green Bay. As a Restaurant Management major, of course I was stoked. Of course the first market I thought of was downtown, what better location. Since then we've written a business plan, and have been feeling out the feasibility of the market. Your comments have fueled a new fire within me. Currently we are finishing up our college degrees, but would love to get the ball rolling on this one.

Any angel investors out there willing to take a calculated risk (one more calculated than Vetter's Watermark)?

Perhaps you may find these useful. The first is an article about the Small Business Administration and the mayor's small-business conference last week. The second article is about the fact Associated Bank is the top SBA-loan bank in Wisconsin and one of the top SBA-loan banks in the country.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091120/GPG03/911200523/-1/archive

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091121/GPG03/911210559/-1/archive

Riverfront's CityDeck opens to public Saturday

Seems to me Mayor Schmitt hit the nail on the head when he said this: "Instead of the backs of buildings to the waterfront, we've made this the front of Green Bay. . . .This is changing the way we think about our downtown and the way we think about our waterfront. We are not going to turn our backs on this God-given asset."

Towerpark you are correct those are all excellent reasons to go to downtown Green Bay but something is missing, when you go downtown there is little foot traffic and and this also a major part to revitalization, while a lot of what you said draws huge crowds its usually for a couple of days. They really need to bring back stores to downtown to help with attracting people on a regular basis, sadly I don't think that is going to be an easy thing to do.

I think that's exactly what the city is trying to do. The days of department stores in downtown Green Bay are gone for the foreseeable future. But I think the city wants to have as much first-floor retail in buildings as possible. And the more apartments and condos they can get built downtown, the more there'll be a need for small shops and things like drugstores, bookstores, coffee shops, restaurants, perhaps a convenience store, etc.

As for the Green Bay line, I would also include an 'event only' platform at Lombardi Ave in Green Bay, it should be especially popular on 'Gold' package Packer gamedays (in fact, I'm a bit surprised that nobody has tried yet to get a gameday charter service going).

Excellent idea.

If they continue Leicht At Nite, which I really enjoyed last year, we will have the farmers market on tuesday, the CityDeck 'Dine on the Deck' on Wednesdays and Leicht At Nite on Thursday. More than enough to keep me busy!

That's a great lineup....Maybe if the Packers have any home or away Monday or Thursday night games next year, perhaps they could set up a big-screen along the waterfront to watch the game outdoors along the river, with food, etc. If they could get NFL permission to do such a thing. Or perhaps during the summer, show great old movies on a big screen — like Gone with the Wind or Key Largo — when the sun goes down. Maybe the Meyer could help with the arrangements.


There may be a big scoop breaking Wednesday.

Love the plan! Too bad the airports in Appleton and Green Bay could not be connected though. I do see that Wittman Field in Oshkosh is pretty closely serviced...I wonder how many EAAers would use the train? I know many people don't actually "fly in" and even these who do, many fly to nearby airports that are less busy like FDL and then find another way into Oshkosh.

Actually when I lived in Oshkosh in the late 80's to early 90's... Amtrak or a charter... not sure which... ran a couple trains up from Chicago via Milwaukee to a siding near the airport (the same siding Oshkosh Truck uses for the Humvees waiting to be shipped out).

I understood the first few years was sold out, but was discontinued after a couple years as ridership dropped as it did not end near hotels or a terminal. People had to call for cabs to get them to the airport (if tenting on the grounds) or to hotels and/or the airport to get rental cars.

I saw it come and go a few times and it was great! This would have been on rails that were not even upgraded to the current speeds (mostly done in the late 90's and 2000's)

I think part of the demise was also the cutting the number of days the airshow ran (from 10+ days to just 6-7)

These were all taken this year by photographer Chad Davis.
http://phixation.com/misc/portplaza/

The downtown mall has grown to become Dixie Square's cousin.

Working in the attached Bay Lake Bank building was interesting during the time they left the sliding doors open into the mall. Every time it rained the water puddled and a couple more of the ceiling tiles dropped. About a year or so ago they wallboarded the door closed so we could no longer see or comment on it.

I would guess there is barely a solid roof over most of the mall anymore.

So in a nutshell... YES the mall is in that bad of shape.

My wife and I went back this evening as well. We sat on the reclining style benches. Kind of cool!

I can't wait to see the rest of the lighting! It is kind of dark currently. I do really like the lighting on the trees, very nice!

Was interesting to see the UW Band laying back on part of the deck playing their trumpets. Those kids will try anything... :)

BTW... not sure if they are still up... but the trees, swags, Xmas gift boxes etc were from the decorations from the former PP Mall.. and I believe they used the Santa Chair for the Santa visits after the deck opened.

(A very comfy Chair BTW - I was a mall Santa there for the last year of PP Mall and first year of Washington Commons)

Thought you guys might like this one.

Direct from Kavarna's Twitter:

Looks like yesterday was the busiest day in Kavarna's history! Holiday Parade, City Deck, etc. The trick is to have lots of people downtown!

P.S. Went back to Chefusion this Saturday for small plates and some Jazz. What an awesome addition to Green Bay's wonderful Broadway District. Please support Chef Tony and crew.

Perhaps you may find these useful. The first is an article about the Small Business Administration and the mayor's small-business conference last week. The second article is about the fact Associated Bank is the top SBA-loan bank in Wisconsin and one of the top SBA-loan banks in the country.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091120/GPG03/911200523/-1/archive

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091121/GPG03/911210559/-1/archive


Thanks for the resources, Tower Park.

There may be a big scoop breaking Wednesday.

I hope that big breaking scoop isn't loaded with manure. That would be messy. :lol:

In Chicago, there are many parks that do 'Movies in the park" where they setup a big screen and show movies. From what I am told it is a lot of fun. I like that idea!

Or perhaps during the summer, show great old movies on a big screen — like Gone with the Wind or Key Largo — when the sun goes down. Maybe the Meyer could help with the arrangements..

There are a few good pictures from the CityDeck grand opening on the CityDeck site, including a picture of my family and I sitting on the reclining chairs (bottom right).

http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/CityDeck/Photos_09.html

In Chicago, there are many parks that do 'Movies in the park" where they setup a big screen and show movies. From what I am told it is a lot of fun. I like that idea!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tower Park
Or perhaps during the summer, show great old movies on a big screen — like Gone with the Wind or Key Largo — when the sun goes down. Maybe the Meyer could help with the arrangements..

Could Green Bay's CityDeck house a 'Green Bay Film Festival' similar to Madision's 'Wisconsin Film Festival'?

http://www.wifilmfest.org/

Or possibly the site of the Neville's International Film Series.

http://www.nevillepublicmuseum.org/programs/international-film-series

... perhaps during the summer, show great old movies on a big screen.when the sun goes down....

In Chicago, there are many parks that do 'Movies in the park" where they setup a big screen and show movies. From what I am told it is a lot of fun. I like that idea!

Could Green Bay's CityDeck house a 'Green Bay Film Festival' similar to Madision's 'Wisconsin Film Festival?

Great idea!!!! This board is smokin'!

Does anyone know what those "35 events" are that have been planned already for the CityDeck?

I like the cardboard regatta idea, Puant! And for Octoberfest, how about:
http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt133/marseilles_bucket/376_regatta_JR.jpg http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt133/marseilles_bucket/2936219532_0f4787dd8d.jpg http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt133/marseilles_bucket/1500032844_6f19185b05.jpg http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt133/marseilles_bucket/10-31-07_Pumpkin_Regatta-751231.jpg

Great idea!!!! This board is smokin'!

Does anyone know what those "35 events" are that have been planned already for the CityDeck?

I like the cardboard regatta idea, Puant! And for Octoberfest, how about:
http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt133/marseilles_bucket/376_regatta_JR.jpg http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt133/marseilles_bucket/2936219532_0f4787dd8d.jpg http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt133/marseilles_bucket/1500032844_6f19185b05.jpg http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt133/marseilles_bucket/10-31-07_Pumpkin_Regatta-751231.jpg

there are a few listed here - I think everything listed has already been mentioned on this board

http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/CityDeck/

Could Green Bay's CityDeck house a 'Green Bay Film Festival' similar to Madision's 'Wisconsin Film Festival'?

http://www.wifilmfest.org/

Or possibly the site of the Neville's International Film Series.

http://www.nevillepublicmuseum.org/programs/international-film-series

Great ideas — about a Green Bay or Fox River Film Festival! And the international film series at the Neville is terrific. While we're on the subject, they had a big crowd at the Meyer Theatre last night for a screening of the film "Feed the Fish," shot last year in Door County. The executive producer and one of the film's actors is Tony Shalhoub, from the TV series "Monk." Shalhoub was born and raised in Green Bay and was at the Meyer last night. Press-Gazette photo.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091123/GPG04/911230506/-1/archive

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde-41-1.jpg http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/poster.jpg

I just want to say what a great post. I would use rail for certain things if it was available in this area but it would not be my primary transportaion choice.

I think a lot of people would use it in the same way as you.

Thanks for doing the google map route. Man, when I study this, I think about how handy this would be and how often I would use it. I think the stations you list are about what I was thinking also.

I thought about adding some stations near large employers, like Quad Graphics near Lomira or Oshkosh Truck. The problem with Oshkosh Truck is that their work force is pretty well split between their north and south plants, plus the campus isn't adjacent to the tracks anyway. Perhaps Fort Howard would be worth a stop?

Have you presented this idea to the group that's pushing for the passenger rail (NEW Rails)? I wonder if anyone from that group reads this forum?

No, I haven't. I just looked and there doesn't seem to be any emails for me to send my map and dissertation.

If we really wanted this, it could be done in a year or less, especially if we started with a "regular" 79 MPH train. How much time would you really save by upgrading the track to 110 MPH, especially when there would be so many stops all along the way, would it really be worth it? I mean, how many stretches are long enough to actually get up to 110 MPH? Start at 79 MPH and then then the plan gets very simple and really cheap (relatively speaking). Perhaps only upgrade the track on the longer rural stretches where 110 MPH is practically feasible. Anyone have any insight on this? Am I way off base with this thinking?

First of all, I detailed my commuter rail plan under the assumption that the 110 mph intercity train was already there. So the question of enough space to accelerate to 110 mph between commuter stations is moot. My whole premise of the commuter train was to utilize existing infrastructure (110 mph track and major stations) to provide more transportation service at a marginal cost. Commuter train cars are manufactured all the time for the various commuter train agencies across the U.S., and used commuter cars are available, so those costs shouldn't be too high. And stations needn't be much more than a platform and an open-air shelter to begin with. Overall, the costs for overlaying commuter rail over the 110 mph regional rail wouldn't be that high. The track work is the expensive part, and that'll be done already.

For the intercity train, I think with the exception of between the Appleton and Neenah stations, there will be plenty of distance to get up to 110 mph. According to this article (http://www.nytimes.com/1999/08/02/us/amtrak-tests-new-high-speed-train-in-desert-for-northeast-run.html), the Acela can accelerate at about 1 mph per second. That comes out to 1.68 miles to get to 110 mph. Let's say 3 miles to be conservative. That still leaves plenty of 110 mph running to be had.

I don't think going to 79 mph first is a good idea. There are a lot of skeptics about passenger rail and transit in general. The perception of failure could be enough to doom any future rail or transit plans. We need to hit a home run with the first major rail/transit project we do, or else there may not be a chance to "upgrade later". I don't think most people would find the 79 mph / 4 hour ride from GRB to MKE to be anything other than a failure. The 110 mph / 2.5 hour ride I think would be looked upon more favorably. And when you're talking $421 million for the 110 mph or probably $100 million for 79 mph, well there just isn't that much of difference politically. Anyone who is against the $421 million plan is probably against the $100 million plan anyway. So you might as well go for the 110 mph right away. Plus the new federal money that will be available in the next few years will probably go only to 110 mph or higher speeds, not to 79 mph speeds.

I love the trails but I thought the whole point of "rails to trails" was to preserve the rail corridors just in case trains ever needed the route again.

I think that was the original intent, but what we've come to find is that people love rail-trails. So now we've got a group of people that lobby for them and I would think most adjacent landowners like the trail better than the railroad. That's a lot of barriers to converting back to rails. So whether you think that is wrong or unintended, the bottom line is these rail trails will not be converted back to rails.

As for the Green Bay line, I would also include an 'event only' platform at Lombardi Ave in Green Bay, it should be especially popular on 'Gold' package Packer gamedays.

Once the passengers detrained at Lombardi and Ashland, then what? It is a mile walk from there to Lambeau, which may be more than most are willing to walk. So if you're going to have a shuttle anyway, why not just use the downtown or the STH 172/Bay Park Square station? The same reasoning applies to an EAA stop.

A new story about CityDeck on WBAY. 1.3 million for phase 2.

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=11561166

Tower-Can you give us any details on the 'big scoop?' That would rock if it was news on the Washington/Walnut building.

A new story about CityDeck on WBAY. 1.3 million for phase 2.



I took my first walk on the city deck early this morning. I had the place to myself. Fairly impressive. When the final phases are done, it will be a even greater destination. It's too bad the opening happened right at the beginning of the winter months.

There seems to be plenty of wooden seats and areas to relax. I look forward to taking the family there when we can enjoy the weather a little more. Maybe for fireworks.

Hoping for groundbreaking on the watermark project soon, because that really is a eye sore.

What's the current talk about the best site for the Green Bay train station? Since the plan follows the existing westside tracks, it seems as though Titletown Brewery, the old Chicago and Northwestern Depot, would be desirable, all things being equal. It's the historical station, which would be in keeping with the imperative to retain the cultural and historical values in revitalizing a downtown. (That plan would, of course, necessitate considerable renovation and expansion.) Portland, OR, among several other cities, renovated its original downtown 19th-century station with great success.

There's a big trend to use eminent domain by cities bent on urban revitalization, even to the point of taking private property to give to private developers. And of course the building of railways, along with utilities and highways, are the main historical purposes for eminent domain.


Of course, Titletown's investors renovated the depot in good faith more than a dozen years ago and it's thriving as a business and downtown destination. You could argue about highest use of the historical building. (Personally, I love Titletown).


So, I wonder if consideration is being given to the idea of combining a depot with Titletown Brewing by building onto the existing building--from the north, I would guess?---so as to give Green Bay a station that partakes of the authenticity of the historical depot, conforms to the historical exterior (and interior) in design, while strengthening Titletown's customer base and adding momentum to Larsen Green? Could that be win-win-win?

So now that CityDeck is in (for the most part) let's take a look ahead, what DT project needs to get done next.

Bringing Down the mall?
Watermark?
Children's Museum?
Washington/Walnut?

I think Watermark would probably be the logical next step but I would be happy with any of these projects moving forward. Maybe the deck will be the final push to get watermark done.
http://www.watermarkgb.com/images/popup_gallery/overview_main.jpg

What's the current talk about the best site for the Green Bay train station? Since the plan follows the existing westside tracks, it seems as though Titletown Brewery, the old Chicago and Northwestern Depot, would be desirable, all things being equal. It's the historical station, which would be in keeping with the imperative to retain the cultural and historical values in revitalizing a downtown.

So, I wonder if consideration is being given to the idea of combining a depot with Titletown Brewing by building onto the existing building--from the north, I would guess?---so as to give Green Bay a station that partakes of the authenticity of the historical depot, conforms to the historical exterior (and interior) in design, while strengthening Titletown's customer base and adding momentum to Larsen Green? Could that be win-win-win?

I thought a great location would be on the west side of the tracks between Dousman and Walnut, just at the end of Hubbard St. You would probably have to tear down the low-slung suburban building or BayCare Clinic to build the turn-around for drop-offs and taxis. But there are many benefits. Passenger trains would fit between Dousman and Walnut, so no streets are blocked. The fact that the station would be between those two streets means both will be excellent pathways to get to the east side downtown, so the benefits of intercity rail will be distributed more evenly to north and south downtown instead of funnelling people only to Main St.

The street on the east side of the tracks, Museum Place, should be torn out. That will make some room for the two or so additional tracks that will be needed for arrivals and departures while not blocking the main track. The employee lot on the south side of Neville can be ripped out; the space should be added to Veterans Park. The access to that apartment lot doesn't need to be a full-fledged street; a narrow asphalt private driveway would suffice.

Having the park across the tracks means great visibility from downtown and also adds to the pedestrian environment at the station. There would be a pedestrian bridge or tunnel from the station to both the middle platform and the park.

You could tuck a parking ramp in there someplace (not right on the street), which would serve as long-term parking for rail passengers, rental car space for visitors, and for business parking to allow for dense urban development along the streets of that block.

Adding on to Titletown would be a good way to do it too, but I prefer the Hubbard location and its ability to really 'anchor' the Broadway district.

I thought a great location would be on the west side of the tracks between Dousman and Walnut, just at the end of Hubbard St. You would probably have to tear down the low-slung suburban building or BayCare Clinic to build the turn-around for drop-offs and taxis. But there are many benefits. Passenger trains would fit between Dousman and Walnut, so no streets are blocked. The fact that the station would be between those two streets means both will be excellent pathways to get to the east side downtown, so the benefits of intercity rail will be distributed more evenly to north and south downtown instead of funnelling people only to Main St.



I agree about that location too. Day travelers to the city core of Broadway and East side would have easier access to the whole area with Walnut and Dousman streets bordering the station.

As for architecture I don't want to see another historical replication of 19th century, but a modern design that shows the differences in time periods between the old depot and a new one.

My 2¢ worth.

Can you give us any details on the 'big scoop?' That would rock if it was news on the Washington/Walnut building.

I don't know myself what it's all about. I was just told to watch for some announcement. Having said that, I contacted my sources today, and they said people should be careful about getting their expectations too high. Don't want to let anyone down.

So now that CityDeck is in (for the most part) let's take a look ahead, what DT project needs to get done next.

Bringing Down the mall?
Watermark?
Children's Museum?
Washington/Walnut?

I think Watermark would probably be the logical next step but I would be happy with any of these projects moving forward. Maybe the deck will be the final push to get watermark done.
http://www.watermarkgb.com/images/popup_gallery/overview_main.jpg

I think that Watermark/Children's Museum needs to be finished first since it is detracting from the CityDeck in its current state. Also, with the programming that is being planned for the boardwalk and the amount of people that it will hopefully attract, a finished Watermark along with Hagermeister Park should be a high priority and encourage investments for other riverfront restaraunts and shops. This will give people more reason to be on the deck and will give them more options with ways that their time can be spent while here. I would think that this would be an attractive investment, can help with funding for the final two phases but if for nothing else, aesthetics!

The mall should be soon after, especially if the city is trying to gain stimulus funds and to market the Hotel Northland. That development would be much more attractive if the mall is gone. Bring back the street grid, keep up the momentum that will be brought from the waterfront and hopefully that would help T Wall or anyone else that can help bring back a dense, urban core.

Washington/Walnut is one that I worry about. I think someone on here mentioned that it will definately be done in some form. I don't like the sounds of that. I really liked both renders (Grand Union and the latest) and I don't want to see something built just for the sake of filling that corner. The Meyer is a jewel and deserves a neighbor that is quality. If this means taking a little more time to ensure that, so be it. Downtown needs for new developments to be inspired, well designed and urban. That should be without question a stipulation. New buildings should be built with such forethought that they will be now and years from now talked about like the courthouse, Architects building, YMCA, etc.

Tower-I know that you are in the dark on this as well, but I sure hope that this 'big scoop' isn't a watered down version of the render that Puant posted. That would be a major disapointment.

I know that you are in the dark on this as well, but I sure hope that this 'big scoop' isn't a watered down version of the render that Puant posted. That would be a major disapointment.

Please don't get your hopes up on the scoop.

So
At
The
Instigation
Revelers
Evolve

I thought a great location would be on the west side of the tracks between Dousman and Walnut, just at the end of Hubbard St. You would probably have to tear down the low-slung suburban building or BayCare Clinic to build the turn-around for drop-offs and taxis.
But there are many benefits. Passenger trains would fit between Dousman and Walnut, so no streets are blocked....The fact that the station would be between those two streets means both will be excellent pathways to get to the east side downtown, so the benefits of intercity rail will be distributed more evenly to north and south downtown instead of funnelling people only to Main St....
...Having the park across the tracks means great visibility from downtown and also adds to the pedestrian environment at the station. There would be a pedestrian bridge or tunnel from the station to both the middle platform and the park...

You could tuck a parking ramp in there.....as long-term parking for rail passengers, rental car space for visitors, and for business parking to allow for dense urban development....

...Adding on to Titletown would be a good way to do it too, but I prefer the Hubbard location and its ability to really 'anchor' the Broadway district.

I agree about that location too. Day travelers to the city core of Broadway and East side would have easier access to the whole area with Walnut and Dousman streets bordering the station...

Interesting idea, just walked over to the spot to imagine it, since I live a couple blocks away.

Beerntsen’s Candies is the low one-story suburban building, a GB tradition, they of chocolate turtle fame, in the same family for many, many, (forget how many) years. But the building is set well back, with the parking lot between it and Broadway, so it’s not in keeping with where Broadway is headed with the urban, walkable streetscape. I’ve often contemplated how best to solve the problem there (usually while scarfing down chocolates).

But... putting a whole train station there, at the end of Hubbard…I think that would anchor Broadway too much. I think it would take the ship down.

That place is strategic to Broadway. It’s smack in the middle of the district, and a big facility, with the multiple tracks, platform, a turn-around, a pedestrian overpass, and the station itself, not even considering the (urban-nasty) ramp--it would weight Broadway enough to drown it (ok, ok, enough with the anchor metaphor).

I’ve experienced a similar arrangement when I lived in Eugene, OR, where a relatively small station and its protected tracks, parking, platforms, etc., caused the east border of the downtown to stop short, where it would otherwise have a natural and strategic connection to an open-space park and beyond that, the river.

I am thinking of other train stations, but I just come back to it--a station big enough to service GB would sever the district from the river. Also from the Neville. Pedestrian tunnels or overpasses are extremely limiting in what they can accomplish, in practice, to conduct foot traffic in an attempt to reconnect two areas divided at ground level by highways or multiple tracks….(also I couldn’t walk a kayak over to the park….)

The idea that the passenger train would be contained between the two streets, that’s an advantage, but the former depot area would also accommodate the train without blocking traffic.

What was just accomplished with the CityDeck, reconnecting with the river on the east side, would be reversed on the west side by disconnecting the river from the exact same section of blocks… Ya know what I’m saying?

That's a great idea to expand the park into the Neville back parking lot. I never see any cars using that lot.

As for architecture I don't want to see another historical replication of 19th century, but a modern design that shows the differences in time periods between the old depot and a new one....

But, consider what Broadway has going for it right now--original historical architecture. An extension off Titletown could capitalize on that, if well designed. But if the station is elsewhere, by all means a modern concept--well designed.

I've walked around the site of which Kramerica speaks (with Kramerica) and I think I need to look around there again. Seems to me a station should fit in there. As cool as the old stations are (and I loved Portland's renovated Union Station, and Seattle is renovating King St. Station which is going to be equally wonderful), there's no way I'd advocate for moving Titletown out of their space. Adding to the north would seem to take space from the Larsen Green, but it's not like that's untouchable. Off the top of my head it seemed to me like a station should be able to fit in between Walnut and Main, but I'll be down there this weekend so I'll walk over and see what I think again. In either location, be it a new station or one added onto Titletown, I think I'd go for modern. I'm not sure how adding onto Titletown would work, I suppose it could be figured out, but I'd be loath to do anything that would affect that business.

With there being a moratorium halting construction on new facilities and with the war in Iraq and Afghan., Judge William Dreisbach wants the current building to be purchased, renovated and expanded. This would cost $9.5 million in addition to the purchase cost. Probably would be the most cost effective. Thoughts?

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=11568140

With there being a moratorium halting construction on new facilities and with the war in Iraq and Afghan., Judge William Dreisbach wants the current building to be purchased, renovated and expanded. This would cost $9.5 million in addition to the purchase cost. Probably would be the most cost effective. Thoughts?

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=11568140

Uh-oh. I say let's not play that card just now. Wait for the financials to improve--and they are improving--so as to make the most of the opportunity. I'd rather hold out for something that isn't too much like 6 extra floors on top City Hall.

Uh-oh. I say let's not play that card just now. Wait for the financials to improve--and they are improving--so as to make the most of the opportunity. I'd rather hold out for something that isn't too much like 6 extra floors on top City Hall.

I would have to agree with you, marseilles. I would rather see something new built on an empty lot (surface parking lot!) and something that can be built up vertically for that matter. I am not sure how much you would even be able to expand in the existing location though the article mentions that they have discussed a plan with Immel Construction in Green Bay.

Adding to the north would seem to take space from the Larsen Green, but it's not like that's untouchable.

Interesting position for On Broadway to be in... I could be wrong, but I would think blocking off the river from Walnut to Main/Dousman would be much against On Broadway's vision for the district, even with the station's advantages... But the alternative would seem to be to give up some of OBI's property (Larsen Green). On the satellite map it looks like lots of room north of Titletown, but I remember reading somewhere (probably here!) that historically those existing tracks were bordered directly by the river, so Leicht Park etc. to the east is on fill, limiting construction.

But really, I would think On Broadway might welcome the prospect of a station there. And Titletown as well, especially if connecting to it from the north end meant business interruptions were minimized. But maybe it would be their worst nightmare. I agree Titletown's quite an asset for Downtown.

If the station and tracks, etc. could fit between Walnut and Hubbard... but doesn't look like it on the map. Looks like it would take the whole length between Main and Walnut?

I guess the third westside option would be immediately south of Walnut.

With there being a moratorium halting construction on new facilities and with the war in Iraq and Afghan., Judge William Dreisbach wants the current building to be purchased, renovated and expanded. This would cost $9.5 million in addition to the purchase cost. Probably would be the most cost effective. Thoughts?

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=11568140

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde-39-3.jpg http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde-40-1.jpg

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091125/GPG0101/911250635/1978/Judge-New-federal-courthouse-not-needed

Here are some Press-Gazette photos of the interior of the Jefferson Court building, where the downtown Federal Court is located. The historic part is really the exterior. The interior was remodeled around the 1980s, when it was converted from a library and museum to an office building.

The article indicates that under current scheduling, funds for relocating, expanding or upgrading Green Bay's Federal Court aren't set to be available for another 12 years. Cong. Kagen has been contacted to try and move Green Bay up on the waiting list. Not mentioned here is whether the owners of Jefferson Court would at any point be willing to sell the building to the federal government to make it exclusively a Federal Court. Does anyone know where the mayor is coming from when he says in the article, "Would we like a $35 million, or $40 million or $50 million courthouse that looks like a concert hall? I don't know. I guess some people would." I never heard of any proposal like that.

If the owners would sell, I think turning Jefferson Court into a Federal Courthouse is a great idea. It's a great location, an appropriate building, would provide enough space (with an addition), and the article says it would be cheaper than building new. No offense to anyone with a different point of view.

In either location, be it a new station or one added onto Titletown, I think I'd go for modern. I'm not sure how adding onto Titletown would work, I suppose it could be figured out, but I'd be loath to do anything that would affect that business.

I agree that a station anywhere other than Titletown should be modern. But I think if you're adding on to the north side of Titletown, there should be a way to create a new "old" addition that integrates well with the old station. And I don't see how a new station attached to Titletown will do anything other than improve their business. They'll become the defacto sit-down restaurant for the station.

If the station and tracks, etc. could fit between Walnut and Hubbard... but doesn't look like it on the map. Looks like it would take the whole length between Main and Walnut?

I guess the third westside option would be immediately south of Dousman.

Yes, the platform would be the whole length between Walnut and Dousman. The station itself could be almost anywhere along that segment, but I think near Hubbard would be best for traffic. The platform would not fit on just one side of Hubbard. Especially when you consider that the switching to create more tracks would be happening right at Walnut (because there is a building on the SE corner of the tracks and Walnut), that takes up a bit of space at the south end before the platform can truly begin.

Beerntsen’s Candies is the low one-story suburban building, a GB tradition, they of chocolate turtle fame, in the same family for many, many, (forget how many) years. But the building is set well back, with the parking lot between it and Broadway, so it’s not in keeping with where Broadway is headed with the urban, walkable streetscape. I’ve often contemplated how best to solve the problem there (usually while scarfing down chocolates).

Well, using the new station as a reason to tear down the building and help Beerntsen's build a new, urban-appropriate building right along Broadway there would certainly help the area out.

That place is strategic to Broadway. It’s smack in the middle of the district, and a big facility, with the multiple tracks, platform, a turn-around, a pedestrian overpass, and the station itself, not even considering the (urban-nasty) ramp--it would weight Broadway enough to drown it (ok, ok, enough with the anchor metaphor).

OK... an aside about parking ramps... THEY ARE GOOD! When I think about parking ramps, I don't think suburbia. I think downtown. Why is that? Because that's where we need ramps. Ramps, to me, are a sign of downtown health. It means there are lots of people who want to go downtown and that there aren't enough spots in surface lots. Sure, ideally everyone would come downtown not in their cars, but that's not reality. Needing a parking ramp means you have a successful downtown. And I'll agree that there are some really poorly designed ramps (aesthetically), but it doesn't have to be that way. Surface lots are what is nasty, not parking ramps.

My idea was to tuck a ramp behind the building on Broadway so it is "hidden". But the more I looked at the aerials, I realized there isn't enough room for that. So maybe it would need to be placed on the west side of Broadway behind those buildings.

What was just accomplished with the CityDeck, reconnecting with the river on the east side, would be reversed on the west side by disconnecting the river from the exact same section of blocks… Ya know what I’m saying? I could be wrong, but I would think blocking off the river from Walnut to Main/Dousman would be much against On Broadway's vision for the district, even with the station's advantages.

I kind of understand where you're coming from. But in my mind, ultimately the river will be blocked by Broadway if our goals are realized. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the ultimate goal on Broadway to have a street lined with buildings, much like the west side of Broadway is currently lined with buildings? If so, where's the view of the river? Just looking down Hubbard? If that's the issue, then the station can be situated just north or just south of Hubbard to preserve the view from Broadway, down Hubbard, to Veteran's Park, the river, and the east side.

The railroad already provides a barrier to access to the river, so that wouldn't be changed. I guess the only major change would be having to take an overpass or a tunnel to get directly from Hubbard to Veteran's Park. But you can get there by crossing the tracks at Walnut or Dousman and then going to the park, if stairs/elevators aren't your thing.

So to me, the view of the river from the west side is supposed to come from the more "natural" riverside setting just along the river. Not from the urban, vibrant Broadway.

Ultimately I think the location at Hubbard is more centrally located to everything in downtown. Plus it would be just a bit closer to Puant Stadium.

That's a great idea to expand the park into the Neville back parking lot. I never see any cars using that lot.

I just assumed it was employee parking. But employees could just as easily use the Leict Park parking.

Looks like the expansion would be at the back of the building, into the parking lot behind, which is assessed (Land Records search) at $184,000 and apparently owned by Channel 2 WBAY (Young Broadcasting of Green Bay, Inc). (Not disclosed in the Ch 2 story/ video, (http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=11568140) but who's counting.)

7. Request by Ald. Wery for review of the Watermark Riverfront Project to include construction timelines and design specifics for the proposed structures.

Ald. Wery asked John Vetter to give the Committee an update on the Watermark Riverfront project. Mr. Vetter thanked the Committee for inviting him and said this project will go forward, adding that they are on the last two pieces of the process and it involves Calumet County Bank and their final commitment and said the Bank is still working through the final commitments with their participants. He said once he has that commitment, he can initiate a six-eight week process that involves Wheda, our Tax Credit Buyer, the City, and ourselves. He said they will all come together with the various specific attorneys who have been selected and will close the Tax Credit Finance Deal, which is very specific. He indicated that this process takes 6-8 weeks. He said he has commitment from Maltese Farshad of Wheda that this project is Wheda’s number one priority and they have given to the Children’s Museum as well. He stated that once we have the final commitment letter from Calumet Bank, the attorneys will divide up the work and set closing dates and Ganther Construction will probably mobilize the site ahead of closing. The construction period is aggressively stated as an eight month schedule but he puts it at ten months from start to finish. Mr. Vetter said about 2/3 of the way through that process, Hagemeister Park Restaurant and the Children’s Museum will be able to clean their space and begin their build out. He stated that Paul Meier from Calumet County Bank had planned to attend tonight but had another meeting that he couldn’t excuse himself from. Mr. Vetter relayed a message from Mr. Meier stating that Calumet County Bank is totally committed to this project and he has no doubt that he will be able to finalize his piece of the deal.

Ald. Wery inquired about a date for the financing to be finalized? Mr. Vetter said he could only say that Mr. Meier is very committed and working as hard as he can to finalize things as quickly as possible and said he is hopeful that in weeks, rather than months it will be finalized. Mr. Vetter said next week they will be meeting with a potential great local business who will hopefully rent some office space and said every indication they have is that this business is interested in the space. Ald. Wery inquired about the design and said one building was put up and said many people are not overly impressed with the look and said Council and the City want to be assured that the next building that is put up is going to be nice and will be the center of the CityDeck. Mr. Vetter responded that this was a major concern with RDA and said during the summer they moved through all the different issues on the aesthetics and materials and said it was approved at the Council level as well. He indicated that what was presented at the RDA and shown to Council continues to be what they will go with. Ald. Weber said Dan Dallich who is an architect, was part of the Task Force that was involved during the summer and he understands materials and brought samples and the Task Force were pleased with it. He did not see any reason to come back to the RDA again. Ald. Weber inquired if the participants are the same participants that they had some time ago, or did they have to go out and pursue new? Mr. Vetter said, “both” Mr. Meier did have to pursue new ones as well as following up with his initial participants. He indicated that Mr. Meier is looking at one participant doing the whole thing and opening up for several participants to do smaller amounts; he’s doing multiple things. Mr. said there is also a private equity group that Mr. Meier is talking to and said all of the investors will have the same position on the loan. He stated that Mr. Meier has heard that the banks that are passing up on this isn’t because of the deal, it’s because of the economy. He stated that his mother wanted him to write a letter to President Obama because he talks about small business, with Ald. Weber saying that it wouldn’t hurt to write to our congressman and senators. Ald. Weber inquired about Wheda having a buyer for the credits and said other than timing, Wheda would need to look for another buyer? Mr. Vetter stated that Wheda is not concerned about that and said their accountant has everything all teed up and are just waiting for the commitment letter from Calumet Bank. Mr. Vetter said this project will happen and any doubt in the community that can be defused by Council would be great. Mr. Meier is open for any suggestions from Council or any other committee of the City.

Ald. DeWane thanked Mr. Vetter for coming and inquired if Mr. Vetter has something in hand that if they don’t get their full commitment amount from Calumet Bank, are they committed to a portion? Mr. Vetter said they have a lending limit and are lending the full amount and said he has their commitment and their commitment letter. Ald. DeWane inquired what is the backup if Calumet Bank doesn’t come through? Mr. Vetter said we need to round out that loan and they are continuing to talk to more banks and more participants with smaller increments and said no one is going to give up. He said the project not happening is not an option they are looking at and said we have to deal with the current environment. Ald. Nicholson inquired if the taxes are current? Mr. Vetter said “yes” they are current.

Motion made by Ald. DeWane, second by Ald. Nicholson to receive and place on file.

Ald. Wery thanked Mr. Vetter for coming and giving the update. A vote was taken on the motion. Motion carried.

It sounds likes its almost in reach...

It sounds likes its almost in reach...

...a six-eight week process...this process takes 6-8 weeks...

It surely is almost in reach, just need that commitment letter. :pepper:

From tomorrow's paper. I can't believe this.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde-38-1.jpg

Greg Larsen from On Broadway, Inc., discusses plans to convert the former Larsen Co. to a maximum-security prison. (Press-Gazette photo)


State to Convert Larsen Site to Prison

by Warren Gerds
Green Bay Press-Gazette

The State of Wisconsin has purchased the former Larsen Co. on Broadway for $6.2 million and will convert the former canning plant to a 750-bed maximum-security prison.

The formal announcement will be made Monday at a news conference at the site attended by local and state officials. The name of the new prison will be Fox River State Correctional Institution at Larsen Green.

The downtown property was sold to the state by On Broadway, Inc., the nonprofit marketing, promotional and development enterprise for Green Bay's Broadway District.

Greg Larsen, president of On Broadway, called the new prison a "win-win-win" for Broadway, the city and the state. "This is a nice addition for the Broadway District, a good use of the land for the city, and it helps the state solve its prison overcrowding problem."

Larsen said a downtown prison provides special opportunities for the community to interact with inmates. He said he envisions families "visiting the new prison during downtown events like Bayfest and the Tall Ships Festival. And the kids just love touring prisons, especially maximum-security."

Ald. Guy Zima, who once proposed a waterpark along N. Broadway, also supports the new prison. "The city can put its homeless shelter there. And the Spanish-speaking people too."

Rick Raemisch, secretary of the Wisconsin Department of Corrections, was attending the American Association of Correctional Institutions annual conference in Davenport, Iowa, and was unavailable for advance comment. He's expected to attend Monday's news conference.

Having the former Larsen Co. converted to a prison is an about-face for On Broadway. The group had planned to have the former vegetable canning facility — two three-story brick buildings stretching three blocks along N. Broadway north of Dousman Street — turned into apartments.

In addition, dozens of small townhouse apartment buildings were to be constructed on a wide swath of land behind the canning plant and along the Fox River. The entire apartment site, including some adjacent commercial properties, was to be called Larsen Green.

But Greg Larsen noted the national economy turned sour as the 22-acre project was being launched and potential developers for the apartments could not get needed financing.

He said the land behind the canning plant, instead, will be turned into a dairy farm operated by inmates from the new prison.

From tomorrow's paper. I can't believe this.

Is this another one of those GBPG pranks you guys put out there? I can't decide if this is a good thing, an okay thing, or a terrible thing. On one side it would "build up" a worn down area of town. On the other, it doesn't create a taxable establishment and takes up a spot of what was once considered prime real estate development opportunities. Is this possibly better than letting the site sit vacant for the next 5 years? I have to let it sink in...

Oh, and I need to see the article myself before I TRULY believe this is not another hoax article.

Is this another one of those GBPG pranks you guys put out there? I can't decide if this is a good thing, an okay thing, or a terrible thing. On one side it would "build up" a worn down area of town. On the other, it doesn't create a taxable establishment and takes up a spot of what was once considered prime real estate development opportunities. Is this possibly better than letting the site sit vacant for the next 5 years? I have to let it sink in...

Oh, and I need to see the article myself before I TRULY believe this is not another hoax article.

I agree with you. It's too early for an April Fool's joke.^^

Sadly its a prank, though it would be a great use and actually provide jobs something they need down there. As for vetter its the same song and dance and I don't believe him for one minute and if nothing has happened b spring it is time to cut the cities losses and move on. I hope he comes through I hope it works out but the man has not shown great vision with what he has already put there, all we got so far are two very bland and dull projects. I guess we will just wait and see.

From tomorrow's paper. I can't believe this.

Ald. Guy Zima, who once proposed a waterpark along N. Broadway, also supports the new prison. "The city can put its homeless shelter there. And the Spanish-speaking people too."



Nice

:lol:

I’m disappointed because I think it would be better to have the train station on Larsen Green, at the north end of Titletown Brewing, instead of a prison and dairy farm. I don’t see how even a 22-acre site has room for those two uses and a historic train station as well. But it looks as though, if Beerntsen’s Candies would shift to the west, we might be able to shoehorn a maximum security prison along Museum Way between Main and Walnut. And that would take the pressure off the State Reformatory in Allouez, so the historic rotunda could be easily expanded to accommodate a new Federal Courthouse.

From tomorrow's paper. I can't believe this.

latest scoop!

I got a sneak peek at the Press Gazette from a week from next Tuesday. Guy Zima is leaving his city council post to move to Colorado to resurrect the family business-a line of "malternative" beverages that appeal to women and men who enjoy being ridiculed by their friends...

I’m disappointed because I think it would be better to have the train station on Larsen Green, at the north end of Titletown Brewing, instead of a prison and dairy farm. I don’t see how even a 22-acre site has room for those two uses and a historic train station as well. But it looks as though, if Beerntsen’s Candies would shift to the west, we might be able to shoehorn a maximum security prison along Museum Way between Main and Walnut. And that would take the pressure off the State Reformatory in Allouez, so the historic rotunda could be easily expanded to accommodate a new Federal Courthouse.

Talk about win-win-win!! The candy shop attracts kids, which in turn attract pedophiles. Cops hang out there, bust the pervs, & have a short drive to the prison! More criminals off the street, police spending less gas money on transporting criminals, and more "foot traffic" on Broadway! What could be better?

Now if only we had a Shopko Express where the pervs could buy binoculars, night vision goggles, etc.....

I'm thankful for scouring through the GBPG this morning and not seeing an article about a new prison :lol:

I think Vetter really means well, and I really hope things work out with this project, it's very important. I don't buy into any of the timelines anymore. They never pan out. I'm not saying that I think the project will happen or that it won't happen, but I'd be fooling myself to put much stock in the timelines anymore. I just really hope that something's happening by spring. That site is so vital for the CityDeck, and the Children's Museum is important to everything. I hope for the best.

Don’t you just love a good turkey sandwich?

Article by Richard Ryman about downtown retail from the PG:
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091127/GPG03/911270529

I went to the tree lighting on Broadway last week mentioned in the article, and really enjoyed it. Several groups of carolers going from store to store, horse-drawn hay rides, live mannequins modeling holiday hats and clothes in the windows, a fun touch; all the businesses open and serving hot chocolate, cookies, even flutes of complementary holiday champagne. Biggest turnout ever, possibly because of the great weather.

...Downtown shopping has not disappeared from Green Bay.

It is different, in some respects. Port Plaza Mall is long gone, as are the stores the mall replaced some 30 years ago.

But it is the same in some respects, too. Locally owned shops with street-side parking and window displays provide an alternative to national retail sameness.

"More people are looking for unique things for the holidays. Downtown is the place for that," said Jeff Mirkes, executive director of Downtown Green Bay Inc. and Olde Main Street Inc....

Sam Abrego, owner of Hat-cetra, was on South Oneida Street for Christmas in 2008 and did well on Black Friday and throughout December, but said his store at 109 N. Broadway, which he moved to in August, is a better location.

"I had more people walk in the store the first month I was here than all of last year," he said. "I am learning this is more of a destination point....

OK... an aside about parking ramps... THEY ARE GOOD!

Just joking on Puant’s “nasty urban” ramps. I just hate ‘em too. A surface lot is open and feels safer from crime, and can be landscaped so the experience of parking isn’t so oppressive as in a ramp. But I agree you can’t escape the math--providing sufficient parking via surface lots just swallows up all the real estate.


I kind of understand where you're coming from. But in my mind, ultimately the river will be blocked by Broadway if our goals are realized. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the ultimate goal on Broadway to have a street lined with buildings, much like the west side of Broadway is currently lined with buildings? If so, where's the view of the river?...

No, no! The integration of such a great asset into the streetscape is essential. So is the integration of the neighborhood to the west.

Broadway is a work in progress, and of course compromise is how we get from the vision to the reality, but the ideal is to open the street grid and keep the blocks short.

You want to keep the blocks short, with pedestrian ingress and egress between. Short blocks, with the high-activity businesses--restaurants and retail--along the street level, and above that, the apartments/condos and service businesses (law offices, architecture firms, health services, tech services, etc.). That gives you the greatest interest level and density on the street, the greatest walkability, the greatest kick-ass vibrancy. That’s not yet what we have on Broadway, market forces haven’t yet sorted out that stratification--but it’s progressing.

And you have to integrate the character and assets of the district into the whole. They can’t be separate components. By way of comparison, you don’t serve French onion soup as a cold cup of broth, a plate of raw onions, dry bread, and a package of cheese. (French onion soup on the brain courtesy of the White Dog Roadhouse/Black Cat Café on Broadway. Delicious!) If you experience those things separately, it’s just raw onions and dry bread. No Arts and Culture District. You have to integrate.

The most important way to integrate is by opening the street grid and drawing pedestrian traffic through it. Views are important, but what you want to achieve is much more than just a view. You want to increase the experiential aspect of it. You want the river and the bay, the excitement of it, the natural diversity, the maritime commerce and vitality, all to infuse the district, by direct experience, reference, metaphor, views, and, in general, an integrated sense of place. You don’t want to decrease the proximity of the river by setting up barriers to it. It's the district's greatest asset.

^^Excellent post, Marseilles. I can only dream about blogging as well.

This little forum has as many layers as an onion.

Does anyone know why the bench lighting isn't on at CityDeck, but the other lights on the trees are left on continuously (day and night)? It is very dark down there at night

i would imaging that the electrical contractor still has work yet to complete. the LED's under the benchs might not be in yet was that sounds like it was something that was an after though. as for the lights being on all the time, the lights should be on a photocell so that when the sun goes down the lights come on. if they are controlling the lights with a time clock then the city probably hadn't set the timing on it yet. all in due time i'm sure the kinks will get worked out.if anyone has time in this busy time of year, i would enjoy to see some night pictures to should off the lights.

No, no! The integration of such a great asset into the streetscape is essential. So is the integration of the neighborhood to the west.

Broadway is a work in progress, and of course compromise is how we get from the vision to the reality, but the ideal is to open the street grid and keep the blocks short.

You want to keep the blocks short, with pedestrian ingress and egress between. Short blocks, with the high-activity businesses--restaurants and retail--along the street level, and above that, the apartments/condos and service businesses (law offices, architecture firms, health services, tech services, etc.). That gives you the greatest interest level and density on the street, the greatest walkability, the greatest kick-ass vibrancy. That’s not yet what we have on Broadway, market forces haven’t yet sorted out that stratification--but it’s progressing.

The most important way to integrate is by opening the street grid and drawing pedestrian traffic through it. Views are important, but what you want to achieve is much more than just a view. You want to increase the experiential aspect of it. You want the river and the bay, the excitement of it, the natural diversity, the maritime commerce and vitality, all to infuse the district, by direct experience, reference, metaphor, views, and, in general, an integrated sense of place. You don’t want to decrease the proximity of the river by setting up barriers to it. It's the district's greatest asset.

You want density - that's a solid wall of buildings along the street. Isn't that what we would all like to see? Or do you think the solid wall of buildings along Broadway's west side between Hubbard and Walnut forms a barrier?

Putting the train station between Walnut and Dousman would keep the sight lines and the connectivity between Broadway and the river the same as it is now, with the exception of the Hubbard Street walkway across the tracks. That would either be eliminated or replaced by a bridge of some sort. But is that connection really used much anyway? But wouldn't the addition of the station and the new pedestrian activity offset that partially severed connection? (I'm assuming a high-quality station design and quality pedestrian accommodations, including good landscaping and "flow" for the bridge)

Putting the train station as an add-on to the north of Titletown would also become a "barrier" between the river and the Larsen Green development. So wouldn't that make it a bad location as well? Couldn't that argument be used at any potential downtown train station location?

The Green Bay train station would only need to be as big or maybe a little bigger than the Beernten's Candy or BayCare building. It certainly does not need to be as big as the Milwaukee Intermodal Station, which is about twice the footprint of the BayCare Building.

Let me reiterate that I think a station location just north of Titletown would be a fine choice as well. I just think that the more centralized location at Hubbard would create more benefits for all of downtown.

^^ I see your points too Kramerica. You've obviously put a lot of thought into the rail ideas. I wonder how we might someday be at all influential to the city and/or DOT when the time comes to actually get the train here? I think some of our ideas are pretty good and should be considered.

For me, I am interested in restoring Titletown as the passenger rail station. I love Titletown the restaurant and I think they can and should stay (as someone mentioned, they could be the 'defacto' place to eat, have coffee, for travellers).

Here's what I understand about Titletown based on conversations with several people (and didn't we discuss on this forum some time back?) Anyway, here's what I think I know: Back in 1995-96 when they renovated the old train station to become a restaurant, at that time I think they leveraged some money that was designated as "transportation funding" through the state or feds. I think some strings were attached to that. I think the idea was to preserve the station in case it would ever be used again for trains.
At the NEW Rails meeting I was told that the north end of Titletown has enough space to be used as a passenger station. That space is currently not used (someone please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this).

Although I often rail on parking :hahano: I do understand its necessity. And I think Titletown's situation offers a better arrangement for the medium-long term parking needs. Not saying "Build huge surface parking lots!" but I'm thinking that part of the adjacent property has opportunity to tuck in some parking in a non obtrusive way.

Titletown was built in a way befitting a train station. It's got some cool detail and grand features. A new modern stations simply won't be built that way. Not enough money, desire, or support generally to build things this way anymore especially on public buildings. So, any new station will be constructed as cheaply as possible, most likely, and modern prefab materials and building techniques rarely pull off anything architecturally special. For these reasons I worry about what a brand-new station might end up like and so I go back to Titletown as the best choice.

And not to be underestimated (Kramerica hit on this) but the station will bring with it activity and life. I tend to think that Titletown offers more of a focal point to that, with the views offered from the Main St bridge. This may be a minor point but we do want more people to start to see that the downtown is coming back to life, and this would help. As for 'centrality' sure, right now Titletown is the "north end" of the district, but with Larsen Green hopefully moving forward then Titletown becomes more central.

Here's what I understand about Titletown based on conversations with several people (and didn't we discuss on this forum some time back?) Anyway, here's what I think I know: Back in 1995-96 when they renovated the old train station to become a restaurant, at that time I think they leveraged some money that was designated as "transportation funding" through the state or feds. I think some strings were attached to that. I think the idea was to preserve the station in case it would ever be used again for trains.
At the NEW Rails meeting I was told that the north end of Titletown has enough space to be used as a passenger station.
Good to know, I was wondering what the talk might be about locating a station. (But really, am I reading that right?--how could there be room for a station within the existing restaurant/brewery? Isn't the north area where they concoct all the good food and brew?) (Appreciate the comment by the way. Really enjoy Packerland Annals.)

You want density - that's a solid wall of buildings along the street. Isn't that what we would all like to see? Or do you think the solid wall of buildings along Broadway's west side between Hubbard and Walnut forms a barrier?

I love talking about this. To me these details combine to be the key to revitalizing downtown Green Bay. Yes, I see the solid block from Hubbard to Walnut as a disadvantage. It's too long, with no thru way. Kavarna's move there in the spring will be some help, because Kavarna will be open at both back and front and most likely will be the nexus for the area by virtue of greatest activity over the longest hours of business. So that will help that block become more porous to the neighborhood, and more easily accessed by rear parking and the alley. That's not the best solution, but will help. So will the adjoining building, when someone claims it from the Broadway vacant building orphanage. It would be a natural for a front/back opening, has a LOT of space with great new windows on the street, and would be GREAT for the food co-op. (I understand the building third up from Walnut, (http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/BroadwayDist9_md.jpg) vacant now, and with good visibility from the busy cross-traffic on Walnut, is also being put forward as a possible location for the food co-op.)(Tower Park's image from an earlier post, hope that's ok.)

Putting the train station as an add-on to the north of Titletown would also become a "barrier" between the river and the Larsen Green development. So wouldn't that make it a bad location as well? Couldn't that argument be used at any potential downtown train station location?

Right, and it's part of Larsen Green’s mission to reconnect the neighborhood to the river there. But OBI is wanting to reconnect there for the same reason I’m advocating to not disconnect between Walnut and Dousman. And I don’t think anyone could argue that the most critical section of the Broadway District, the most defining section--even as revitalization continues along the street north and south--is the Walnut to Dousman section, the section between the two bridges. It’s central and defining. That’s why the need to further connect it to the river, not disconnect it.

Big difference between a single track, as it is now, and the multiple protected tracks and platform of a station, where you simply are not allowed through except by a single pedestrian overpass or tunnel. It’s not about providing a route for the determined die-hard pedestrian (granted you are considering this when you talk about landscaping and "flow.") We are trying to create something, a street life and compelling destination that means you are here, not at Fox Valley Mall, Bay Park, or Amazon.com in your pajamas. You add value and appeal to the experience of the district, one layer at a time, and you end up with life on the street, a kick-ass downtown, and a destination city.

Now if only we had a Shopko Express where the pervs could buy binoculars....
Hey, JL, what about Bertrands Sporting Goods two blocks up Broadway--bought a nice pair of waterproof Nikons there recently!

Can anyone answer whether Titletown Brewery or restaurant uses this north section of the building? (see below)

Even if this north part of the building isn't big enough for a station, I would think an addition would be relatively inexpensive (at least compared to building a whole new station)...Plus, the Titletown building already has the track siding and the huge platform which should help save some money on the station. I would think that the restaurant/brewery would welcome a train station, and all of the activity & people it would bring. But rather than assume, I'd like to hear from someone who might know the owner of this place or better yet the owner him/herself.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/TitletownBirdsEye1.jpg

and below is another view:

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/TitletownBirdsEye2.jpg

Can anyone answer whether Titletown Brewery or restaurant uses this north section of the building? (see below)

Even if this north part of the building isn't big enough for a station, I would think an addition would be relatively inexpensive (at least compared to building a whole new station)...Plus, the Titletown building already has the track siding and the huge platform which should help save some money on the station. I would think that the restaurant/brewery would welcome a train station, and all of the activity & people it would bring. But rather than assume, I'd like to hear from someone who might know the owner of this place or better yet the owner him/herself.



I ran an errand tonight (Sunday) and drove into the back parking lot to see if there were any lights on and the two southern windows had lights on. One had the blinds open and it looked like there was a hallway, maybe office space.

At first I thought the Hubbard street location was the best but now that I've thought more more about it the Titletown location makes more sense from a historic viewpoint. I guess that I'm split both ways. I'll go for both just as long as there's a train to catch for a getaway weekend in Milwaukee or Chicago.

Titletown was built in a way befitting a train station. It's got some cool detail and grand features.

Video on Titletown Brewing/Chicago & Northwestern Depot, in the PG architecture series. (Maybe this is already on the board somewhere...) Owner/President Brent Weycker makes a point about it not being possible to recreate such a quality building these days because it would be cost-prohibitive.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20080430/GPG0803/304300001

Nice architecture. Makes me thirsty.

Regarding the (theoretical) train station, I understand this idea about short blocks and connections to the river from Broadway, I just don't think there's a problem in this case. First, the train station itself would easily fit in the space between Hubbard and Dousman. If you take a look at Google or Bing maps, you'll see that it'd be no problem. The only issue would be the added tracks. But the thing is, that connection is terrible right now. There's almost no visual connection, so we're not preserving that. The pedestrian connection starts on Hubbard, then connects to a sidewalk in a not very elegant way, then crosses Pearl, then goes through a gap in a low wall with a line of trees, then crosses the RR track, then crosses Museum Pl, then gets to Veteran's Park. If a new station ever went in there, I'd advocate for making one of the design requirements an improved connection along that route. If you do it right, the station could help activate that area and be a tool to BETTER connect Broadway with the river.

Furthermore, the east side of Broadway between Hubbard and Dousman is terrible. The Mikey's/Bangkok Garden complex on the corner is fine, but for the rest of the block, other than the suburban style Beerstien's (which is a great business, but in a non-urban building), the entire rest of the block is surface parking. That block isn't long at all, only slightly longer than the square city blocks on the east side downtown. I don't think Broadway south of Hubbard is bad at all, in fact it's about the most urban block in Green Bay. For me there's no good reason that the goal for the block north of Hubbard shouldn't be to fill it in one day, and if the east side of that block was also activated by a train station, that would be even better.

That said, I spent quite a bit of time in the area this weekend, and came to the conclusion that the best location for a train station is the old train station. That would be awesome, and it could be restored into something that could never be reproduced just as Portland has done. If the complex had to be extended north, I no longer think it would mess with Larsen Green. The area any expansion would be built on is kind of ugly now, and construction there could be used as a tool to provide a better connection between the Larsen site and Leicht Park.

Another idea that I thought would be cool would be if you could move Titletown to the east side rail depot (where the Chamber used to be). That would be an awesome location by the river and with boat docks and Fox River Trail access, and they could keep the authentic railroad theme. The problem is that the east side depot appears to be a lot smaller, so they'd need to be a creative solution to how that could work at all. Plus it would take the business away from Broadway, which I'd have mixed feelings about. So those are probably deal breakers. Other theoretical locations would be in the first floor or two where ShopKo Express was, or a new site along the river as part of the potential Bullfrogs stadium.

Now, if they didn't want to move, all of that is moot because I wouldn't want to even try to move them then. My second preference for a new RR depot would be between Dousman and Hubbard, as discussed above. Placing the station in a new buildings added onto the north of the old station is the 3rd best option for me.

But the thing is, that connection is terrible right now. There's almost no visual connection, so we're not preserving that. The pedestrian connection starts on Hubbard, then connects to a sidewalk in a not very elegant way, then crosses Pearl, then goes through a gap in a low wall with a line of trees, then crosses the RR track, then crosses Museum Pl, then gets to Veteran's Park.

"in a not very elegant way" :lol:

It’s pretty sorry all right. Talk of (theoretical) train stations aside, don’t you agree it needs to be opened up and the connection capitalized on? In terms of actual distance, it’s quite short. From Broadway to Veteran’s Park is the same length as, for instance, that roofed platform at Titletown. It’s maybe a 40-second walk with an Urban Frog mocha in hand.

Standing at the intersection of Broadway and Hubbard, it’s exactly the same distance to either walk south down Broadway to Walnut (the single too-long block I’m complaining about), or to walk east and dabble your feet in the river (while contemplating the $12 million connection to the river going on over there on the opposite bank). :)

Furthermore, the east side of Broadway between Hubbard and Dousman is terrible....the entire rest of the block is surface parking.... For me there's no good reason that the goal for the block north of Hubbard shouldn't be to fill it in one day....
Yes, dense & varied storefronts to pull pedestrians along. Another problem in that respect is the dead space created by the front of the Old Fort Howard building, all lobby behind glass. Very nice building, and the setback is a nice variation in the street-front topography, but it needs life in there at the street level. And as for the east side, yeah, parking run amok. And it's water, water everywhere and not a drop to drink...Most if not all the lots are private and try to restrict access. For the last few weeks of the wildly successful Farmer's Market, most of those lots were closed off, and a guy with a flag shook you down for 3 bucks to park.

I don't think Broadway south of Hubbard is bad at all, in fact it's about the most urban block in Green Bay.
It's excellent, for sure! Just uninterrupted, so you can't easily get at it from the west neighborhood and parking lots, except from either end. It cuts off the neighborhood that way--for instance, the Green Bay Community Theatre is behind there, and the Fort Howard Apartments.

Another idea that I thought would be cool would be if you could move Titletown to the east side rail depot...
Great idea! (Didn't Smet get that building?)

Placing the station in a new buildings added onto the north of the old station is the 3rd best option for me.

And what about just south of Walnut? Maybe a possibility.

If it ever comes to fruition I can't see the rail depot going anywhere other than where Titletown is currently located (with Titletown staying right where it is). Remember now, we live in Green Bay where it can sometimes be considered a sin spending taxpayers money :). When I look at the needs of a train station I see a few necessities. 1) Infrastructure, 2) Parking, 3) Accessibility, 4) Appeal (to some extent). With Titletown we already have 1 and 2 pretty much nailed down with a lot of open space to expand. It also offers the best views of the river and Downtown, which would be a shame not to promote. I just couldn't see GB or its citizens approving building a train station a block or two away from an existing one (although non-functional at the moment). Furthermore, I really enjoy the old feel of Titletown and think it is critical to have a number of dining/drink options on-site or very close. Again, remember this is GB. In Chicago or NYC 3-4 blocks is very close. In GB it is road trip, especially in winter.

As for accessibility (buses, trolleys, etc.) what would be the best way to integrate the 2 together? Utilize the current parking on Titletown and the entrance onto broadway? Use the parking lot at Leicht as a transit stop? Street stops?

I haven't read everything, I might have missed someone bringing this up, but the best way to get bang for the buck is to hook the train up to Greyhound. Wherever this depot winds up, it should have bus terminals in addition to train platforms. The intermodal station in Milwaukee is a good model. After all, if you're travelling from Chicago to Marinette, you're going to have to transfer. You might also want to provide space for car rental agencies, a cab stand, and, ideally, a city bus transfer point.

If this is going to fly, you have to imagine someone easily taking a train from Kaukana to the Broadway station and transfering to a city bus to go to Austin Straubel Airport. That would be pretty enticing to someone who otherwise be parking long term in Winter.

Tonight I was watching the movie "The Polar Express" with my kids (this is based on the old book). I've never been much of a "train geek" but as of late I'm becoming one, sort of I guess. Anyway the movie got me stoked up, and I was re-watching the slideshow from the Press-Gazette on Titletown that Marseilles referenced above. I think the slideshows are great but they aren't easy to view & review so I typed up the transcript along with many of the photos over on Packerland Annals (link below). I also added some commentary and additional pictures, all is credited/sourced well enough I hope.

As for the bus connections - the MWRRI does include bus connections to connect the train stations to other cities, but Nativist you make a good point that a connection to the airport might make sense too.

I had another crazy dream, which goes kind of like this: If the passenger rail brings enough tourists up from Milw/Chicago/beyond to the station (say, at Titletown) why should that be the end of the line?

Sure,hopefully they stay in GB to spend some tourist dollars, but should this really be the "end of the line" especially when the hot tour destination, Door County, is just a bit further? Here's my idea: Tie in and utilize the new ship dock adjacent to Titletown at Leicht Park. (http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&cp=44.51918966095188~-88.01660208472788&lvl=18&sty=h) Bring in a passenger boat like the Foxy Lady II or perhaps an even larger ship to make regular summertime excursions up the Bay to Door County and/or Marinette. Maybe this is mostly a touristy thing to do, but there may be some commuters using this as well. People getting off the train could take a couple hours to visit the Broadway District while their luggage is transferred from the train to the adjacent boat.

I've heard that Door County brings something like 2 million+ tourists in per year, and actually Green Bay tourism isn't all that far behind that. If even a small percentage of those people used the train (and perhaps the boat) this could work. Could be a really relaxing way to travel, very unique and scenic. I think it would be a creative travel package which could attract many people, especially the general demographic that is attracted to Door County.

It’s pretty sorry all right. Talk of (theoretical) train stations aside, don’t you agree it needs to be opened up and the connection capitalized on? In terms of actual distance, it’s quite short. From Broadway to Veteran’s Park is the same length as, for instance, that roofed platform at Titletown. It’s maybe a 40-second walk with an Urban Frog mocha in hand.

Part of the original plan when the CityDeck was proposed was to remove the stone from the west bank of the river and replace it with a series of wetland terraces that restore native habitat and make for a much softer edge. I haven't heard much about this, but I think it's a very important piece of the project. As part of that there's to be a pier extending out from Veteran's Park allowing people access out over the river, and a place for boats to dock so people can have access to the east side and Broadway.

I bring this up because I think this part of the riverfront redevelopment is really important, but specifically because this should be done in conjunction with improving this connection back to Broadway. I don't think it needs to be rocket science, but starting with the pier which should call attention to this connection, then using some sort of stone paver to improve the surfaces in Veteran's Park, continuing that surface in the crosswalks across the two roads and RR tracks, and down Hubbard to Broadway. The gap in the wall at the tracks would have to be widened, and probably some plantings added in a few places, and some sort of arch or visual cue visible from Broadway that signals the existence of the path as the pier would signal the existence of the path from the river.

This isn't all that tough to do, it just requires some consistent elements be used so there's a bit of continuity along the path. It's obviously not free, but it isn't some ginormous project and I think it would be a big improvement.

Bring in a passenger boat like the Foxy Lady II or perhaps an even larger ship....

http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt133/marseilles_bucket/QueenVictoriaQueenElizabethIIRendez.jpg?t=1259732317
The QE2 steams past the Queen Victoria in a sprint for the Port of Green Bay

...I don't think it needs to be rocket science, but starting with the pier which should call attention to this connection, then using some sort of stone paver to improve the surfaces in Veteran's Park, continuing that surface in the crosswalks across the two roads and RR tracks, and down Hubbard to Broadway. The gap in the wall at the tracks would have to be widened, and probably some plantings added in a few places, and some sort of arch or visual cue visible from Broadway that signals the existence of the path as the pier would signal the existence of the path from the river.

This isn't all that tough to do, it just requires some consistent elements be used so there's a bit of continuity along the path....
That sounds terrific! I wonder if something might be done, too, with the little public space at the SE corner of Broadway and Hubbard near Monzu Bistro, that small park space that is dominated right now by the red-painted steel sculpture, which doubles as a large bench area... I wonder if a well worked-out port theme could augment that park space.

The natural bank plan seems intriguing but ambitious. I've been interested to get more information about that intention--to establish and sustain a natural aquatic system via artificial means there--but I haven't found any particulars. Anyone know more about it? Or any successful model wetland elsewhere using shelving, that the city hopes to be guided by? I will say I spend time three miles further upriver, and the natural activity in the water and along the banks has seemed to increase just in the four years I've observed it. More fish, cormorants, pelicans, raccoons, even kingfishers, eagles, hawks, foxes. The clean-up efforts are encouraging.

There are some good trees established on the west bank at Veteran's Park, and I've seen hawks, eagles, pelicans, cormorants, and various ducks there, and of course a heck of a lot of geese and rabbits. (Anyone else notice that the CityDeck is already overrun with bunnies!? Very urban.)

Here's my idea: Tie in and utilize the new ship dock adjacent to Titletown at Leicht Park. Bring in a passenger boat ..to make regular summertime excursions up the Bay to Door County and/or Marinette.

I've heard that Door County brings something like 2 million+ tourists in per year... Could be a really relaxing way to travel, very unique and scenic. I think it would be a creative travel package which could attract many people, especially the general demographic that is attracted to Door County.

Seriously, I think this boat idea is fantastic. Night-time, drifting past the dark shore, fires from the fish boils in the distance... I'd sign up! (after first driving to Milwaukee to get in on the travel package).
How about one of the Great Lakes cruise ships, like:

http://www.greatlakescruising.com/canadian-empress/canadian-empress.jpg
MV Canadian Empress replica steamboat
Great Lakes Cruising Company (http://www.greatlakescruising.com)

This will be a huge project for Green Bay and the area, plus it is actually on the east side of the river.



New veterans outpatient clinic will be built on University Avenue in Green Bay

The new 160,000-square-foot veterans outpatient clinic will be built on private property at 2800 University Avenue in Green Bay.

The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs today notified Rep. Steve Kagen, D-Appleton, that construction will probably begin in the fall of 2010.

“This is a tremendous step forward for our veterans who will soon be able to receive the service they deserve,” Kagen told the Green Bay Press-Gazette today.

He said the clinic is expected to serve approximately 15,000 veterans and employ between 150-210 people.

The two-story clinic is expected to be only the second surgical center of its type in the nation. An on-site parking lot will accommodate 1,200 vehicles.

VA officials visited Brown County this year to look at several potential sites.



http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091202/GPG0101/91202044/1978/New-veterans-outpatient-clinic-will-be-built-on-University-Avenue-in-Green-Bay

I see your points too Kramerica. You've obviously put a lot of thought into the rail ideas. I wonder how we might someday be at all influential to the city and/or DOT when the time comes to actually get the train here? I think some of our ideas are pretty good and should be considered.

Do you have an email address for NEWRails? I couldn't find any way on their website to contact them with a general comment. I wonder what they would think of the commuter train idea.

When they do the studies for the GB train, there will be public meetings for the environmental documents. Your ideas will be listened to.

Titletown was built in a way befitting a train station. It's got some cool detail and grand features. A new modern stations simply won't be built that way. Not enough money, desire, or support generally to build things this way anymore especially on public buildings. So, any new station will be constructed as cheaply as possible, most likely, and modern prefab materials and building techniques rarely pull off anything architecturally special. For these reasons I worry about what a brand-new station might end up like and so I go back to Titletown as the best choice.

You're right that there's a chance a new station would be built poorly. But that's why we have to be active and make sure that doesn't happen! The government does listen when enough people speak out.

But look at the Milwaukee Intermodal Station. It is now modern and it looks great! I'd be just as happy to have something like that as to have a historical station like Portland's.

And not to be underestimated (Kramerica hit on this) but the station will bring with it activity and life. I tend to think that Titletown offers more of a focal point to that, with the views offered from the Main St bridge. This may be a minor point but we do want more people to start to see that the downtown is coming back to life, and this would help. As for 'centrality' sure, right now Titletown is the "north end" of the district, but with Larsen Green hopefully moving forward then Titletown becomes more central.

But if Puant Stadium (and the accompanying development north of there) becomes reality, then Hubbard is still the central area. And Hubbard will always be more central to the east side, because of the East River.

Right, and it's part of Larsen Green’s mission to reconnect the neighborhood to the river there. But OBI is wanting to reconnect there for the same reason I’m advocating to not disconnect between Walnut and Dousman.
...
Big difference between a single track, as it is now, and the multiple protected tracks and platform of a station, where you simply are not allowed through except by a single pedestrian overpass or tunnel. It’s not about providing a route for the determined die-hard pedestrian (granted you are considering this when you talk about landscaping and "flow.") We are trying to create something, a street life and compelling destination that means you are here, not at Fox Valley Mall, Bay Park, or Amazon.com in your pajamas. You add value and appeal to the experience of the district, one layer at a time, and you end up with life on the street, a kick-ass downtown, and a destination city.

I want you to answer me this: How is the train platform cutting off Larsen Green from Leict Park any different from the train platform cutting off Hubbard from Veteran's Park? The platform will be the same length in both cases. I guess I don't understand why you think one is so much better than the other.

Yes, I see the solid block from Hubbard to Walnut as a disadvantage. It's too long, with no thru way. Kavarna's move there in the spring will be some help, because Kavarna will be open at both back and front and most likely will be the nexus for the area by virtue of greatest activity over the longest hours of business. So that will help that block become more porous to the neighborhood, and more easily accessed by rear parking and the alley.
...
It's excellent, for sure! Just uninterrupted, so you can't easily get at it from the west neighborhood and parking lots, except from either end. It cuts off the neighborhood that way--for instance, the Green Bay Community Theatre is behind there, and the Fort Howard Apartments.

The Kavarna back entrance will only be a help to Kavarna. No one is going to just walk through Kavarna to get to Broadway. And as for the west neighborhood access, people walking from there will be walking along streets, not cutting through people's yards. So accessing Broadway from only Hubbard or Walnut is a moot point, since those are streets they'll be on anyway.

...Plus, the Titletown building already has the track siding and the huge platform which should help save some money on the station.

Those tracks will be useless for a new station. They're old and have not been maintained, and as such will need extensive work anyway. So I would not call the siding an advantage. (Although it is not a disadvantage and it is nice the space for the tracks is already there)

There are two things I keep coming back to in deciding between the Hubbard location and the Titletown location. One is that Hubbard is more central to both Broadway and to the east side downtown, and that will lead to the greatest benefits for transit-oriented development.

The second thing is that I can't get past the issue of moving Titletown. Their location and building are significant factors to their success, so I don't see why they would want to move. And even if they were willing to move (let's say because of a generous compensation package), why would any of us (being downtown/urban advocates) want them to move? Why move a successful business when there is a parking lot wasteland just to the south that is also prime for a train station? It isn't like downtown has a ton of thriving businesses, but yet here we're saying it should move. That just doesn't make any sense to me.

I've heard that Door County brings something like 2 million+ tourists in per year, and actually Green Bay tourism isn't all that far behind that. If even a small percentage of those people used the train (and perhaps the boat) this could work. Could be a really relaxing way to travel, very unique and scenic. I think it would be a creative travel package which could attract many people, especially the general demographic that is attracted to Door County.

I think the shuttle boat is a great idea. I drove a taxi 7 years ago and took fares from Austin Straubel to Door County a few times, so there's some market potential. Having a layover in DT Green Bay while waiting for the next boat out of town is another layer in that onion you speak of.

This will be a huge project for Green Bay and the area, plus it is actually on the east side of the river.



http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091202/GPG0101/91202044/1978/New-veterans-outpatient-clinic-will-be-built-on-University-Avenue-in-Green-Bay

So 2800 University Ave is near the old Tillman's landscape building, their address was 2735 University Avenue. Does anyone recall where the building that is to be built for Port Plaza Tower residents? I remember a mention of University Ave and also the Berger Lane site.

So 2800 University Ave is near the old Tillman's landscape building, their address was 2735 University Avenue.

I have a buddy that lives right there & recently a attorney came to him in a attempt to buy him out. He had no idea what the reason was, but this explains it. The location might be convenient because of it's proximity to the highway, but I could come up with a ton of other locations I'd rather see it go to. University Avenue has really gone down hill in recent years. Back when I went to college my future wife lived near University & Danz. Now you should be packing heat to walk through there at night.

So 2800 University Ave is near the old Tillman's landscape building, their address was 2735 University Avenue. Does anyone recall where the building that is to be built for Port Plaza Tower residents? I remember a mention of University Ave and also the Berger Lane site.

I've been told that in the photo of University Ave. below is where the new housing for PPT Residents will be in the wooded area just North of Tillman, and I'm assuming that the large area on the North end that was cleared 18 years ago for a Bio-Technology park is where the new VA hospital would be. Excellent access to the freeway system with high visibility from the roadway. When I went UWGB in the '90s I lived right where the little "A" balloon is, address is 2833 University.

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww359/GB-Pix/UniversitySite.jpg

... near University & Danz. Now you should be packing heat to walk through there at night.
The Subway there on the corner of University and Turek was just robbed two nights ago.

I think the shuttle boat is a great idea. I drove a taxi 7 years ago and took fares from Austin Straubel to Door County a few times, so there's some market potential. Having a layover in DT Green Bay while waiting for the next boat out of town is another layer in that onion you speak of.

good grief, what kind of fare was that? $200? I'm in & out of the airport a lot & once in a while would need to get a cab home, if I didn't park my car there. From the airport to the near-west side, off Gray St., was $35!

The Subway there on the corner of University and Turek was just robbed two nights ago.

I hadn't heard about that one. I know the gas station just down the block has been robbed many times also.

This will be a huge project for Green Bay and the area, plus it is actually on the east side of the river.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091202/GPG0101/91202044/1978/New-veterans-outpatient-clinic-will-be-built-on-University-Avenue-in-Green-Bay

This does look like a big deal. When I first read there'd be parking for 1,200 cars, I thought it was a misprint. But maybe that's right. Plus a couple hundred new jobs. I'd look for a big article in tomorrow's paper.


A terrific new entry on the C&NW depot/Titletown Brewing at Packerland Annals. www.packerland.blogspot.com/

This does look like a big deal. When I first read there'd be parking for 1,200 cars, I thought it was a misprint. But maybe that's right. Plus a couple hundred new jobs. I'd look for a big article in tomorrow's paper.

A very huge deal when considering a 160,000 sf mega clinic, one of possibly only two in the country from what I hear. I just hope the building looks architecturally stimulating and the parking lot is broken up with sufficent landscaping rather than just a sea of asphalt. Otherwise, new jobs and brining a number of people from all over the northeast region to Green Bay on a daily basis is a big deal. :cheers:

The Subway there on the corner of University and Turek was just robbed two nights ago.

So did a gas station in Algoma Tuesday as well as a cash advance store in De Pere last week.

No place is completely safe.

On the topic of the VA clinic. Kinda wish they would have chosen a suburb for the location. 1200 car parking lots fit in well in Bellvue. I don't believe Green Bay will receive any tax revenue on that parcel, nor will it be a catalyst for other development.

Edit: I guess more jobs are good though. Maybe a hotel or something could be built to serve patients, who knows.

Do you have an email address for NEWRails?

Yep, send them your ideas: gbpassrail@new.rr.com


The second thing is that I can't get past the issue of moving Titletown. Their location and building are significant factors to their success, so I don't see why they would want to move. And even if they were willing to move (let's say because of a generous compensation package), why would any of us (being downtown/urban advocates) want them to move? Why move a successful business when there is a parking lot wasteland just to the south that is also prime for a train station? It isn't like downtown has a ton of thriving businesses, but yet here we're saying it should move. That just doesn't make any sense to me.

I've tried to make it clear, let me reiterate this: I do NOT want to see Titletown move! I love that place, one of my favorite restaurants in town. I certainly never advocated for them to move! I know it was discussed here but I cringed every time that idea was brought up.

Look, I think there is a potential for mutual benefit to have BOTH the train station AND Titletown restaurant/brewery in the same building. Granted, the train station may need some space and so I'd advocate an addition to the north end of the building for that (and to use the current platform).

Again, I certainly do not want to see Titletown the restaurant leave, and as I said in my blog post, I think they can and should stay.

The train terminal will certainly help Titletown but also many other adjacent establishments. It's an easy quick walk across the street to the museum, a short walk down the street and around the corner to Broadway, etc. I think a lot of travellers who have maybe an hour to kill could find ample things to kill time in the restaurant and/or within a short walk.

good grief, what kind of fare was that? $200? I'm in & out of the airport a lot & once in a while would need to get a cab home, if I didn't park my car there. From the airport to the near-west side, off Gray St., was $35!

Long distance flat rate was Fish Creek $100 and Fox Hills in Mishicot $50. The company didn't last long because they undercut everybody's prices too much and couldn't stay afloat. I occasionally see Door County Taxis in GB during the summer. The company had airport and casino pricing start at $10 minimum for the first mile and then the regular rate kicked in.

One time I picked up a fare at Regency Suites (Hotel Sierra) and when the guy got in my cab he had a mix drink in his hand and I told him that he couldn't take it with, so he left on the sidewalk. He got back in the cab and said he wanted to go to the casino. The guy was wasted and I told him that he wouldn't get in because he was too drunk but he insisted that I take him there so I did, and the total came to about $20 bucks. After he went into the casino I called the dispatcher to let her know that the ride had completed. She wanted to dispatch me to someplace on the west side but I declined and said I would wait. And sure enough five minutes later the guy staggered out of the casino and into the cab telling me I was right about being too drunk. His ride back to the hotel cost him $32.

*deleted...one of my more ridiculous ideas*

I don't believe Green Bay will receive any tax revenue on that parcel...

Not sure if this is still the plan, but this was the word back in July, from a July press release on Rep. Kagen's website:

The VA plans to select a developer who will have the center built, then lease it to the U.S. government, keeping the land on the tax rolls.

U.S. Rep. Steve Kagen, D-Appleton, said the arrangement would generate between $2 million and $3 million in property tax revenue annually for the county.

has anyone heard of a project in GB called "The Moon"?

I'm doing some research on an unrelated topic, & came across it. It was listed as a sports bar & indoor sports complex that is green built & self-sustaining. It said it's a project in GB, set to begin construction in 2009. I've never heard of such a thing..

has anyone heard of a project in GB called "The Moon"?

I'm doing some research on an unrelated topic, & came across it. It was listed as a sports bar & indoor sports complex that is green built & self-sustaining. It said it's a project in GB, set to begin construction in 2009. I've never heard of such a thing..

There was this "mooning" a while back. Probabably not related though...

http://www.fraterslibertas.com/uploaded_images/MossMoon-774686.jpg

Also, I have no idea if Bailey's Harbor has deep enough water to bring in a boat this size.



I don't know if Bailey's harbor is deep enough. This past summer I took a lunch cruise on Foxy Lady II and I seem to recall the captain mentioning that it had a shallow draft and could operate in 3ft deep water. I'd think that a dock could be made long enough to get to 4ft.

I’m disappointed because I think it would be better to have the train station on Larsen Green, at the north end of Titletown Brewing, instead of a prison and dairy farm. I don’t see how even a 22-acre site has room for those two uses and a historic train station as well. But it looks as though, if Beerntsen’s Candies would shift to the west, we might be able to shoehorn a maximum security prison along Museum Way between Main and Walnut. And that would take the pressure off the State Reformatory in Allouez, so the historic rotunda could be easily expanded to accommodate a new Federal Courthouse.

I agree with everything you say. You have a profound understanding of the organic connectivity of development. :nuts:

Does anyone know why the bench lighting isn't on at CityDeck, but the other lights on the trees are left on continuously (day and night)? It is very dark down there at night

I don't think they've finished putting up all the lighting yet.

I haven't read everything, I might have missed someone bringing this up, but the best way to get bang for the buck is to hook the train up to Greyhound. Wherever this depot winds up, it should have bus terminals in addition to train platforms. The intermodal station in Milwaukee is a good model. After all, if you're travelling from Chicago to Marinette, you're going to have to transfer. You might also want to provide space for car rental agencies, a cab stand, and, ideally, a city bus transfer point.

Excellent points.


Two articles today on the VA Clinic. Yes, the property would remain on the tax rolls.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091203/GPG0101/912030606/1978/University-Avenue-site-picked-for-Green-Bay-veterans-clinic
www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091203/GPG0101/912030616/1978/Green-Bay-VA-clinic-location-chosen-for-easy-access

FYI. Improvements planned at Time Warner Cable Field at Fox Cities Stadium. Last season the Timber Rattlers became a farm team of the Brewers for the first time, and attendance at Fox Cities Stadium hit an all-time record (average of 3,724 per game). The stadium's official capacity will remain at 5,500 with the improvements.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091129/GPG0101/911290644/1978/archive/Fox-Cities-Stadium-renovations-under-way

So now that CityDeck is in (for the most part) let's take a look ahead, what DT project needs to get done next.

Bringing Down the mall?
Watermark?
Children's Museum?
Washington/Walnut?

I think Watermark would probably be the logical next step but I would be happy with any of these projects moving forward. Maybe the deck will be the final push to get watermark done.
http://www.watermarkgb.com/images/popup_gallery/overview_main.jpgMy sense of things on various downtown development projects — real, possible and imagined. Stand to be corrected on any of these items. Hope I didn't miss anything. I'm sure there'll be surprises.

Astor Place. Dead, sadly.

Larsen Green. At least delayed. Possibly dead????

WaterMark. Needs $3 million more in financing to proceed.

Washington/Walnut building. There were indications an announcement on the project might be made this fall.

Washington Commons. City hoping to get stimulus funding for the mall's demolition, opening the way to restoration of the street grid. Any new buildings would seem years away; land could be vacant for some time.

Hotel Northland. City proceeding with plans to arrange for housing elsewhere for the tenants of Port Plaza Towers. The mayor says he may have a developer(s) waiting in the wings once the former hotel is vacant.

Lofts on Adams. Someone on this board indicated an announcement might be forthcoming.

Amtrak. Passenger rail must be restored to Madison first before Green Bay will be considered. Wisconsin has applied for stimulus funding for the Milwaukee-Madison connection. Waiting for word from Washington.

Federal Court. Expanding current building or finding a new location is years away. But the federal judge here, with others, is pushing to move up the project.

KI Convention Center. All quiet, at least publicly, on the prospect of expanding into the former JCPenney department store.

CityDeck. A fabulous grand opening. City hoping to find funding for phases II and III.

Green Bay Metro. People on this board have indicated some announcement may be forthcoming. Not sure if it's development-related or downtown-related.

Stadium. Puant Park, home of the Bullfrogs, in design stage and exploring availability of financing.

Broadway District. Kavarna/Parisi's is a definite go but now looking at a spring opening. Vita RAWstaurant and Chefusion open up. La Cocina finishes remodeling. Little Tokyo expands. Shopko Express goes vacant. Etc.

Olde Main. Main Street repaved and relighted. United Way moves into former bank building.

City Hall expansion. Construction equipment should be showing up any day now to add six more stories onto City Hall.

^^ I don't think Larsen Green is dead. I don't believe the mall demo qualified for stimulus, but I could be remembering wrong. I think it should be GBMPhillips Field at Puant Park, since GBM was first on here to promote a ballpark.

Update on 41 project, focusing on 29/41 area in Howard, particularly the entrance to Pamperin Park (the most-used county park). The 14-mile 41 upgrade in Brown County will take six years, from 2010 to 2016. Construction starts next year on the Schuering Road interchange in De Pere, but the bulk of construction starts in 2011. Still includes 28 roundabouts. Total cost of the Brown County 41 project: close to $1 billion.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091203/GPG0101/912030592/-1/archive

Total cost of the Brown County 41 project: close to $1 billion.



http://www.fulltimecasual.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/800px-dr_evil.jpg

I thought it was very interesting that on the day it was revealed Georgia-Pacific will cut a couple hundred jobs from its Green Bay work force, it was announced construction will start next year on a new VA clinic here that will add a couple hundred new jobs. Although GP says its cuts were due to modernization of machinery and not the recession, seems to me the simultaneous stories of job cuts in heavy industry and job gains in the medical field show how Green Bay's economy, like the rest of the country, is in transition. Below is a chart of job losses nationally for all of 2008 and 2009 through November. (U3 refers to the official unemployment rate. The U6 rate, which is a broader index, is also dropping.) Although it's a slow process, we're heading in the right direction; hopefully it can continue. I wonder if it would have been feasible to propose the VA clinic downtown. Just thinking.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/job_loss_12_04_09.jpg

I wonder if it would have been feasible to propose the VA clinic downtown. Just thinking.



My guess the main reasons were parking & access to highways. At least that's all they might admit to. There may be some political angles that are played to keep it out of downtown, who knows. That would have been a great announcement to have that large of a facility downtown. My wife is hoping they will have a job for her at the new clinic since she is in the medical field. It will cut down on the commute.

This also may have another positive affect as far as bringing people to the brown county area to live. My Dad (who is a veteran) is hesitant to move back to a community that doesn't have the proper services to take care of him. As it is now (in Florida) the care he gets is terrible. Takes a half a year to get a appointment scheduled. Follow-up is almost impossible. Yadda..Yadda. He's treated like a lousy number. Pretty sad.

one million bijillion dollars!
lol, austin powers is the greatest!


Yeah too bad this new VA center won't go downtown, that would be great. A building that could be built in height rather than a sprawling Wal Mart and parking lot (Wal Mart Supercenters are around 160,000 to 180,000 square feet) is just a littttle bit more efficient.

What is this Lofts on Adams?

Here's a new graphic of the Bullfrogs proposed stadium. Note the proposed retail & hotel on the north (right) side of the boat slip. What do you guys think about that?

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/BaseballGroundsofTitletown.jpg

I have some other images we've seen before, but in higher resolution, at the links below:

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/GBAerialLookingNW.jpg

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/GBAerialLookingE.jpg

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/marinaentrancerevised.jpg

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/GBAerialLookingN.jpg

Update on 41 project, focusing on 29/41 area in Howard, particularly the entrance to Pamperin Park (the most-used county park). The 14-mile 41 upgrade in Brown County will take six years, from 2010 to 2016. Construction starts next year on the Schuering Road interchange in De Pere, but the bulk of construction starts in 2011. Still includes 28 roundabouts. Total cost of the Brown County 41 project: close to $1 billion.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091203/GPG0101/912030592/-1/archive
28 roundabouts? I counted 2*4* in the drawings that WisDOT presented a couple of years ago. I wonder where the four new ones are?

:nuts:

Mike

Here's a new graphic of the Bullfrogs proposed stadium. Note the proposed retail & hotel on the north (right) side of the boat slip. What do you guys think about that?


I am trying to not be over negative, but it seems to me like the the parking along the river is terrible. I think that you move the buildings closer together and keep the parking all confined to the western half. If you want pedestrians to circulate this area dont wrap all the building with parking. There is nothing worst then trying to walk through parking, in fact it is down right nasty. I know that its conceptual but I see FAIL FAIL FAIL...At a minimum I say look towards Johnson Bank, they have parking yet you are not forced to walk through it.

Otherwise that stadium seems a little tighter towards Mason then I recall.

Be great to get this stadium off the ground- not sure about the rest of the project. I might actually prefer parking at this point- cant believe I just said that...

My wife is hoping they will have a job for her at the new clinic since she is in the medical field. It will cut down on the commute.

Good luck with your wife. Hope it works out.

This also may have another positive affect as far as bringing people to the brown county area to live. My Dad (who is a veteran) is hesitant to move back to a community that doesn't have the proper services to take care of him. As it is now (in Florida) the care he gets is terrible. Takes a half a year to get a appointment scheduled. Follow-up is almost impossible. Yadda..Yadda. He's treated like a lousy number. Pretty sad.

I've never understood why veterans care in this country was allowed to deteriorate as much as it did. It's a given, seems to me, that taking proper care of vets should be a top priority of our health-care system at all times.

What is this Lofts on Adams?

Lofts on Adams is a reference to the 126 Lofts on Adams project for the former Schauer & Schumacher Furniture building on the northwest corner of Walnut and Adams. (The 126 refers to the address on Adams, not the number of lofts.) Green Bay 4 Life posted on this last September, including the photo design below. It's been said the Lofts plan — which calls for commercial condo space on the first floor and eight living units and a roof garden above — is being developed by Michael Schwantes of Creative Business Brokers.

www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=42944448&highlight=lofts+adams#post42944448

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/126Lofts.jpg




Here's a new graphic of the Bullfrogs proposed stadium. Note the proposed retail & hotel on the north (right) side of the boat slip. What do you guys think about that?

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/BaseballGroundsofTitletown.jpg

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/GBAerialLookingNW.jpg

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/marinaentrancerevised.jpg

Looks like the stadium has been moved closer to the river and the boat slip in the map, compared to what the renders show, to accommodate buildings to the immediate west of the stadium. I wonder what the "Proposed Academy" is? Is the design in the renders still valid or would that change with the shifting of the stadium? On the map, where would the main pedestrian entrance to the stadium be? (I hope it's not through a parking lot and between buildings.) I gather there'd be some kind of pedestrian walkway around the west end of the boat slip connecting the parking area with the stadium itself, directing people where to go to enter the ballpark. Looks like the primary vehicle entrance to the parking lot area would be on Arndt and Bridge streets. With this design, there'd be lots of cars parking on streets like Pearl, Arndt, Bridge, Broadway, etc. in addition to using the lots. Like the landscaping (and presumably signage) on Broadway to announce the stadium. Not sure retail and a hotel north of the boat slip would fly right away, but it's certainly worth shooting for. Visiting teams and out-of-town fans could stay at the hotel during the season. Perhaps players who couldn't find host families would live there too. And I see the name of the stadium on the map is Baseball Grounds of Titletown. That's got a ring to it.


28 roundabouts? I counted 2*4* in the drawings that WisDOT presented a couple of years ago. I wonder where the four new ones are?

:nuts:

Mike

28 is the number used by the Press-Gazette.

Looking at those stadium renders is somewhat surreal, considering that we conceived of the idea years ago. I go to one or two Rattlers games per year, and I've never gone to a Bullfrogs game, and I can honestly say that I'd bring the family several times a year to events at a new stadium. It's that cool. Like the name being floated, too.

It's also interesting to see the subdued responses to all of these projects. Of course it's because hardly anything has actually come to fruition over the past couple of years so we know better than to get too excited (yes, City Deck and a couple others have come to pass). I still hope once the economy improves in the next few months, some of these projects will emerge.

Even though I haven't posted in a while, I do read y'all every day, and the discussions have never been better. Someday, when we're posting pictures and links to webcams of buildings actually being built, we'll remember these years and laugh.

I am trying to not be over negative, but it seems to me like the the parking along the river is terrible. I think that you move the buildings closer together and keep the parking all confined to the western half. If you want pedestrians to circulate this area dont wrap all the building with parking. There is nothing worst then trying to walk through parking, in fact it is down right nasty. I know that its conceptual but I see FAIL FAIL FAIL...


There's much to be said about the predominant "development model" of the last 40 or so years...How many of these developers really have any experience doing truly urban developments? Who around here really knows hot to do it well? Especially in this area...Green Bay's developments have been almost exclusively suburban type since when? The 1940's? Even the downtown developments that have occurred since then have been all about jamming suburbanism into the downtown. Here's where perhaps people like us can try to influence or educate on what good urban development really is all about.

...OK, all that said, this site north of the slip is a challenge...I can understand why they put the parking in the way they did. When I did my initial renders I didn't spend a whole lot of time on the site north of the slip, but yeah, I put a lot of parking in there as well. To do something good here is going to take some creativity.

I suppose they need to ensure there is enough parking for games at the stadium. I guess on the bright side, the parking will serve double-duty as it will be used during the day for whatever gets developed there and then as the day workers clear out, the same parking will be used in the evening for baseball. Too many of the other parking lots around town are sized for peak times but then the rest of the time they are dead space.


It's been said the Lofts plan — which calls for commercial condo space on the first floor and eight living units and a roof garden above — is being developed by Michael Schwantes of Creative Business Brokers.

What developments has this developer actually pulled off? I know they own a lot of properties but many seem to just sit there for years & years empty...and this was the case long before the economy tanked. I sense a ruse. If anyone from this company reads this, prove me wrong! I really like the ideas, I just want to see something actually happen!


Not sure retail and a hotel north of the boat slip would fly right away, but it's certainly worth shooting for.


I have my doubts about a hotel here too, though I don't have a better idea in terms of what might actually work on this site. I think the baseball stadium is a perfect fit for the 'brownfield' but to me the rest of the site is a bit of a challenge. I was thinking about what sort of thing might take advantage of the boat slips. A marina? Anyone else have any ideas?



It's also interesting to see the subdued responses to all of these projects.

I'm excited! Would some more emoticons help show it?
:laugh::colgate::bowtie::D:dance::cucumber::rock::banana2::cheer::nocrook::happy::righton::cheers1::applause::dance2::okay:

Even though I haven't posted in a while, I do read y'all every day, and the discussions have never been better. Someday, when we're posting pictures and links to webcams of buildings actually being built, we'll remember these years and laugh.

I was wonderin' where you went. Glad you're still hanging around. Sometimes I wonder how many people just read this and never actually post? I truly enjoy everyone's ideas.

I am trying to not be over negative, but it seems to me like the the parking along the river is terrible. I think that you move the buildings closer together and keep the parking all confined to the western half. If you want pedestrians to circulate this area dont wrap all the building with parking. There is nothing worst then trying to walk through parking, in fact it is down right nasty. I know that its conceptual but I see FAIL FAIL FAIL...At a minimum I say look towards Johnson Bank, they have parking yet you are not forced to walk through it.

I agree. The horrible "sea of parking" is the first thing I noticed about the area to the north of the boat slip. That's just a terrible design for an urban area. That design is what I'd expect for a stadium at the stadium/arena complex in Ashwaubenon, not for a stadium on Broadway in downtown Green Bay.

Looking at those stadium renders is somewhat surreal, considering that we conceived of the idea years ago. I go to one or two Rattlers games per year, and I've never gone to a Bullfrogs game, and I can honestly say that I'd bring the family several times a year to events at a new stadium. It's that cool. Like the name being floated, too.

It's also interesting to see the subdued responses to all of these projects. Of course it's because hardly anything has actually come to fruition over the past couple of years so we know better than to get too excited (yes, City Deck and a couple others have come to pass). I still hope once the economy improves in the next few months, some of these projects will emerge.

Even though I haven't posted in a while, I do read y'all every day, and the discussions have never been better. Someday, when we're posting pictures and links to webcams of buildings actually being built, we'll remember these years and laugh.

Hey, Geography Teacher - I Like Maps - is back! Actually, I think downtown Green Bay has done remarkably well in terms of development in recent years and recent decades, perhaps third in the state only to Milwaukee and Madison. For one reason or another, the downtown has undergone a considerable facelift - from 50 years ago, 25 years ago, 10 years ago and five years ago. Every year there are new projects, even with the recession (which is likely over by now, anyway). Maybe we get spoiled with all these potential projects on the board, some being held up, others not going to happen. But some of those things, and others too, will break from the pack. There always seems to be enough going on to keep this board interesting, IMO. I'm excited too.:cheer:

I wonder what the "Proposed Academy" is? Is the design in the renders still valid or would that change with the shifting of the stadium? On the map, where would the main pedestrian entrance to the stadium be? (I hope it's not through a parking lot and between buildings.)

From previous presentations I have seen... the academy is a plan by the Bullfrogs to have a year round sports training facility - a bit like what prevea does but less on sports medicine and more on fundamentals and clinics and stuff.

I am guessing from renders the main entrance will be behind home plate at the "rounded corner" of the building under the Mason Bridge... other entrance would be between the building and through or via the restaurant.

I've never understood why veterans care in this country was allowed to deteriorate as much as it did. It's a given, seems to me, that taking proper care of vets should be a top priority of our health-care system at all times.




You said it perfectly. 100% agree. Regardless of where they place this facility, as long as veteran care is improved, that's the main thing.

Regarding the VA, I think that would be quite tough to put downtown for a number of reasons, the first that comes to mind is parking. I'm as pro-downtown as anyone, but not everything should be downtown, and the proposed site seems pretty good.

Regarding the stadium, the ballpark itself looks wonderful. Along the river, that's a ton of boat slips. I don't know if it should be all slips or perhaps a mix of slips and transient docking parallel to the river that invites pedestrians down. The new retail building on Broadway should be sited right up to the street with parking behind. I like the little entrance public space on the corner of Broadway and Arndt, that's a nice and needed gateway since the park itself isn't right on Broadway.

Which brings me to the north portion... what a disaster! My hope is that no real thought was put into the siting of those buildings, because the way they are laid out is awful. I understand that there's going to be surface parking there, and I'm fine with that, but the buildings there MUST interface directly with the river. The reason I suspect the rendering hasn't been thought out is that for potential businesses in the area, I'd bet they'd really want to front the river. If you're opening a restaurant, you WANT to have an outdoor seating area, and nice access for boaters coming to the river. If you are opening a hotel, you WANT to have rooms overlooking quality public space and the river. There's no cost or access penalty to having the parking all inland from the buildings... none, but there's a TON to gain for businesses to have that river's edge siting. And obviously the public space is nicer and more active for not having a bunch of parking between the buildings and the river. Finally, by having the parking all inland, it's at least possible to move the parking for the ballpark in the future and develop some of the surface lots, but with this plan that's never going to be possible without demoing otherwise fine buildings. There's just nothing good about how those buildings are sited in that plan.

One more thought. I can see a hotel there. I have a hard time seeing retail there unless it was some destination retail that took advantage of the river (for instance, a sporting goods store selling kayaks and canoes). But really, that's a fairly isolated site of retail. It seems more suited to entertainment places that take advantage of people going to games or staying at the hotel. No matter what, the greatest value for the tenants there is created by having direct access to the river while also having on-site parking inland.

Regarding the VA, I think that would be quite tough to put downtown for a number of reasons, the first that comes to mind is parking. I'm as pro-downtown as anyone, but not everything should be downtown, and the proposed site seems pretty good.

Regarding the stadium, the ballpark itself looks wonderful. Along the river, that's a ton of boat slips. I don't know if it should be all slips or perhaps a mix of slips and transient docking parallel to the river that invites pedestrians down. The new retail building on Broadway should be sited right up to the street with parking behind. I like the little entrance public space on the corner of Broadway and Arndt, that's a nice and needed gateway since the park itself isn't right on Broadway.

Which brings me to the north portion... what a disaster! My hope is that no real thought was put into the siting of those buildings, because the way they are laid out is awful. I understand that there's going to be surface parking there, and I'm fine with that, but the buildings there MUST interface directly with the river. The reason I suspect the rendering hasn't been thought out is that for potential businesses in the area, I'd bet they'd really want to front the river. If you're opening a restaurant, you WANT to have an outdoor seating area, and nice access for boaters coming to the river. If you are opening a hotel, you WANT to have rooms overlooking quality public space and the river. There's no cost or access penalty to having the parking all inland from the buildings... none, but there's a TON to gain for businesses to have that river's edge siting. And obviously the public space is nicer and more active for not having a bunch of parking between the buildings and the river. Finally, by having the parking all inland, it's at least possible to move the parking for the ballpark in the future and develop some of the surface lots, but with this plan that's never going to be possible without demoing otherwise fine buildings. There's just nothing good about how those buildings are sited in that plan.

I am stoked about this ballpark and agree with Danillo in that the field itself is fantastic, but I am extremely disappointed in the new layout and hope that they don't stay with this!!! Part of being a urban ballpark is street frontage. Urban is zero setback from the street and the original layout was great. Even Puant had parking all worked out :). The original layout would at least encourage more parking along Broadway and possibly more shopping. Keeping the street frontage made this park more of Broadway and the urban fabric that is existent here and trying to be built upon. I loved in the original renders how you could walk along the boat slips on the scoreboard side where the donor ads were. That was original and added to the cool factor. Now does the two story brick with the grand staircase disappear? That rocked and I will be bummed if that is changed. This did fit Broadway so well. The north end is HORRENDOUS! Parking along the river? This was terrible when you could do this on the east side of the river in front of Younkers back in the day. The proposed retail buildings are not urban and we are going backwards here. People want more living options downtown. How about a mixed used hotel/apartment building? Though this isn't MLB, St. Louis built a development like this next to Busch and you could tie in the brickwork from the stadium with some ground floor retail. Just a thought. Coaches, players, instructors for the baseball academy could stay here as well as fans and patrons for the multiuse aspect of this. I apologized for sounding negative, but the Bullfrogs have a wonderful opportunity here and I hope it is done right. Are you still around ifyoubuildit?

In cases like this, one could say: ifyoubuildit, build it right!

Regarding the ballpark being zero setback, there's RR tracks there, so it can't really be. I'd rather have it basically like the plan shows than to have more surface parking there. I don't think anyone's going to miss seeing the ballpark there, or that the connections will be worse because there are buildings along Broadway.

I converted one of my models into a video to show the brownfield stadium (my earlier version, not the real proposal now being developed).

Although I didn't spend a lot of time on the north side of the slip, I did find a restaurant model in the 3D Warehouse that I stole and dropped in my model right alongside the river. This video shows some of that building inside & out. Though I'm not saying this is great, I'm just trying to convey the idea of having a building that takes advantage of the waterfront & views.

I also swung the video around to show the passenger train going under Mason St, where, I caught Night Rider heading west (Kitt had apparently jumped the draw bridge). I'm not sure who Night Rider's 'acquaintance' is, but you'll notice that she gets around.

Anyway, here's the YouTube video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfy9ejoN3Bs) Another onion peel. Enjoy.

I converted one of my models into a video to show the brownfield stadium (my earlier version, not the real proposal now being developed).

Although I didn't spend a lot of time on the north side of the slip, I did find a restaurant model in the 3D Warehouse that I stole and dropped in my model right alongside the river. This video shows some of that building inside & out. Though I'm not saying this is great, I'm just trying to convey the idea of having a building that takes advantage of the waterfront & views.

I also swung the video around to show the passenger train going under Mason St, where, I caught Night Rider heading west (Kitt had apparently jumped the draw bridge). I'm not sure who Night Rider's 'acquaintance' is, but you'll notice that she gets around.

Anyway, here's the YouTube video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfy9ejoN3Bs) Another onion peel. Enjoy.
I would say that you have too much time on your hands...

I dig it thought.

^^It's amazing how much free 3D stuff you can get out there nowadays and how little time it takes to put this kind of stuff together (I did this during the 2nd half of the Viking-Cards game).

Anyone else using Google SketchUp? I was thinking how more of you should sketch out your ideas for this stuff.

I'm not sure who Night Rider's 'acquaintance' is, but you'll notice that she gets around.

Anyway, here's the YouTube video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfy9ejoN3Bs) Another onion peel. Enjoy.

Good funny

Everything on the north side of the inlet is conceptual only!! Since it's a brownfield site, it will be capped and used as parking to start and then it will be open to whatever developement ideas come down the road. Nothing on the concept masterplan except for the stadium site itself would be part of Phase 1.

Everything on the north side of the inlet is conceptual only!! Since it's a brownfield site, it will be capped and used as parking to start and then it will be open to whatever developement ideas come down the road. Nothing on the concept masterplan except for the stadium site itself would be part of Phase 1.


ifyoubuildit reincarnated?

Like everybody, I am not too sure about the north portion of the Brownfield. I think the best use of the land would be a hotel or restaurant (or both) that really takes advantage of the riverfront location. Outdoor seating for the warm months and tiered indoor seating that looks over the river. A hotel could market itself in connection with the stadium or attempt to build its own niche. Even with the stadium being built there would still feel like there is a separation between it and the rest of Broadway, there would need to be a good amount of infilling to really make them feel connected.

One thing really did disturb me about the renderings though. I know they are not final, but the covering of the bleachers and the "Bullfrogs" sign over the north side block the view of downtown. I was hoping for more of an open concept on that end of the stadium to take advantage of a (hopefully) growing skyline. Here's the link to show what I mean.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/GBAerialLookingN.jpg

. . . the buildings there MUST interface directly with the river.

Perhaps the thinking going on here is to have a restaurant that overlooks the field, from where patrons inside the restaurant or perhaps from a patio outside it could watch games and other events at the stadium. I've seen that kind of thing elsewhere in baseball. I'm thankful the Bullfrogs apparently are letting us peek in on some of their possible planning, concepts and thinking process as they move along.

Everything on the north side of the inlet is conceptual only!! Since it's a brownfield site, it will be capped and used as parking to start and then it will be open to whatever developement ideas come down the road. Nothing on the concept masterplan except for the stadium site itself would be part of Phase 1.

Welcome BG! Thanks for your comments. Part of the fun of this board is the armchair quarterbacking, certainly myself included. Thanks for the clarification on the stadium. This is an exciting project.

How about a mixed used hotel/apartment building? Though this isn't MLB, St. Louis built a development like this next to Busch . . . .

Interesting thought.

One thing really did disturb me about the renderings though. I know they are not final, but the covering of the bleachers and the "Bullfrogs" sign over the north side block the view of downtown. I was hoping for more of an open concept on that end of the stadium to take advantage of a (hopefully) growing skyline. Here's the link to show what I mean.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/GBAerialLookingN.jpg

I actually like the covered grandstand-like look in left field, if that's still part of the concept. Gives the stadium a bigger feel, seems to me, and provides for that fabulous two-story brick and metal arched entranceway off the boat slip seen in one of the renders. As for the scoreboard, good point. Perhaps it could be moved elsewhere if the team thinks that's a good idea. But I'm getting in the weeds.

I actually like the covered grandstand-like look in left field, if that's still part of the concept. Gives the stadium a bigger feel, seems to me, and provides for that fabulous two-story brick and metal arched entranceway off the boat slip seen in one of the renders. As for the scoreboard, good point. Perhaps it could be moved elsewhere if the team thinks that's a good idea. But I'm getting in the weeds.[/QUOTE]

I really like the covered grandstand as well. The original render with the walkway on the outside of this area was freakin' awesome! I wish that would have stayed the same.

http://picasaweb.google.com/gBayPacker/BrownfieldOfDreamsGreatIdeaForBullfrogsStadiumClickToView#5387793862345247234

I loved the two story brick with the metal arch and grand staircase as well. It is such a classic look that fits Green Bay so well. The signage connected 'Green Bay Bullfrogs' is super cool also. That would rock lit up at night. Does anyone know if these elements are still in play? Gosh, I hope so. The original renders had such a retro ballpark look and feel. As with any other project, I worry financing will cause the project to be scaled back : (

Nice day to enjoy the city deck!

http://www.bsatroop614.org/images/pagemaster/P11600261.JPG

Just some thoughts about this new Veteran's care center. I am like everyone else 1,000 percent for it, and agree care for veterans has become disappointing (understatement).

It is too bad it can't go downtown, and possibly along the river. Veterans could then stroll the City Deck as some sort of therapy, or with family and friends that would visit. Or the simple act of a veteran looking out his/her window that overlooks the river could act as a therapeutical act, unlike looking out over a 4 lane highway...unless most enjoy that sight and noise.

Now for the building. A midrise building is usually more efficient, when it comes to a medical situation patients that are not spread out in a building can get faster care if/when an emergency occurs. Also, too bad the building that is proposed or approved won't have a small parking structure rather than a parking lot.
That said, i am extemely happy this is being built though, and will probably spur some retail on the northeast side further east of I-43.


I really can't wait for this stadium to take off. You sure that is Night Rider's acquaintance or Tiger Woods 43rd? or both?

(I did this during the 2nd half of the Viking-Cards game).
So Vikings losing REALLY makes you happy? hehehe. Awesome video!

Just some thoughts about this new Veteran's care center. I am like everyone else 1,000 percent for it, and agree care for veterans has become disappointing (understatement).

It is too bad it can't go downtown, and possibly along the river. Veterans could then stroll the City Deck as some sort of therapy, or with family and friends that would visit. Or the simple act of a veteran looking out his/her window that overlooks the river could act as a therapeutical act, unlike looking out over a 4 lane highway...unless most enjoy that sight and noise.

Now for the building. A midrise building is usually more efficient, when it comes to a medical situation patients that are not spread out in a building can get faster care if/when an emergency occurs. Also, too bad the building that is proposed or approved won't have a small parking structure rather than a parking lot.
That said, i am extemely happy this is being built though, and will probably spur some retail on the northeast side further east of I-43.


I really can't wait for this stadium to take off. You sure that is Night Rider's acquaintance or Tiger Woods 43rd? or both?


So Vikings losing REALLY makes you happy? hehehe. Awesome video!

I don't know if I agree with this. I don't know that I DON'T agree with it, but it raises some questions. In terms of the benefits of having the Veteran's Care Center (VTC) downtown, I agree about the benefits to the vets. But what are the benefits to downtown? There is a lot of talk on this board of 'connection'. Connecting buildings to the river, connecting the east side to the west side, connecting business to entertainment, etc. What exactly would the connection of the VTC be to downtown? I understand that there would be another building, and there would be more people downtown, but how would it affect the rest of the area? It's clearly a very, very specific destination. Just because people are going to the VTC, I don't know that it increases the odds of visiting other businesses downtown. Maybe I'm wrong on that, not sure.

If/when we get to the point where downtown has the density and activity that we are all dreaming of, I could see the VTC as a detriment to downtown, in that it may not be the highest use of downtown property.

Thoughts?

Anyway, here's the YouTube video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfy9ejoN3Bs) Another onion peel. Enjoy.

I have tried to view this video but it keeps telling me it has been removed.

Just to be more clear of what im trying to say in my opinion about the location of this new facility for veterans; I want to emphasize that since its a facility for veterans receiving medical care, I think a location that provides some sort of therapeutical help is best rather than along a highway. I would easily recommend the best scenery in the world, but that can't be found here, so how about the best scenery in the area? Such as somewhere right along the bay or river (waterfront). Since im sure most of us can agree that water provides a simple, natural, therapeutical support. And since highway access is of importance, I-43 travels closely along the bay.

Just to be more clear of what im trying to say in my opinion about the location of this new facility for veterans; I want to emphasize that since its a facility for veterans receiving medical care, I think a location that provides some sort of therapeutical help is best rather than along a highway. I would easily recommend the best scenery in the world, but that can't be found here, so how about the best scenery in the area? Such as somewhere right along the bay or river (waterfront). Since im sure most of us can agree that water provides a simple, natural, therapeutical support. And since highway access is of importance, I-43 travels closely along the bay.

yeah, I got that. And I agree with you on that point. My point was that there are 2 sides to the location - benefit to the vets, and benefit to the location. While I don't think anyone would dispute the benefit to the veterans, what will a downtown location do to benefit downtown? That's the part I'm not so sure about. At that point, I guess the question becomes, "which of the two is more important?" and I'm not touching that one.

Just to be more clear of what im trying to say in my opinion about the location of this new facility for veterans; I want to emphasize that since its a facility for veterans receiving medical care, I think a location that provides some sort of therapeutical help is best rather than along a highway. I would easily recommend the best scenery in the world, but that can't be found here, so how about the best scenery in the area? Such as somewhere right along the bay or river (waterfront). Since im sure most of us can agree that water provides a simple, natural, therapeutical support. And since highway access is of importance, I-43 travels closely along the bay.

Veterans will only be coming in for outpatient care, no inpatient stays, so natural scenery is perhaps a little less essential, as they won't be spending a great deal of time there. For what it's worth, there will probably be some sort of basic walking trail on the grounds. A center by the bay would be wonderful, but I guess this University Ave. site fit the myriad of requirements that the VA had in mind.

I have tried to view this video but it keeps telling me it has been removed.

It was pretty silly so I took it down.

delete

I was thinking about this again today during the Packer-Bear game: Maybe MGK920 or one of our other transportation experts on this board can answer this:

Would it be possible to set up some sort of "charter train" to run from Green Bay/Fox Cities to Chicago just for a special event like a Packer-Bear game?

I know I've seen pics like this one from 1999 (http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ekSEtH3sSsa9TrknbprMhw?feat=directlink) where there were passenger trains running on freight lines for whatever special purpose. How difficult is it to get something like this organized?

I'm thinking a "Charter Choo Choo to Chicago" of sorts could be a heck of a tour package deal, a lot of fun if it's set up right. You advertise and promote the hell out of that, interview some of the passengers on the trip on TV and whatnot about what a great experience it was to get to Chicago and the game without driving, and bam! you've got some awesome publicity which could help get regular service back up here.

Just a thought..maybe another crazy idea....anyone care to comment?

P.S. I am updating Packerland Annals with some stuff you guys might dig. "Part 1" is a bit of a rehash of some stuff we yakked about years ago, but Part 2 and 3 will be newer shit. Click the link below:

Would it be possible to set up some sort of "charter train" to run from Green Bay/Fox Cities to Chicago just for a special event like a Packer-Bear game?

I'm thinking a "Charter Choo Choo to Chicago" of sorts could be a heck of a tour package deal, a lot of fun if it's set up right. You advertise and promote the hell out of that, interview some of the passengers on the trip on TV and whatnot about what a great experience it was to get to Chicago and the game without driving, and bam! you've got some awesome publicity which could help get regular service back up here.

Just a thought..maybe another crazy idea....anyone care to comment?



I can't comment on the issue of passenger trains on freight lines, but I like the idea. My initial thoughts were that it might be cost prohibitive to run such an excursion without the help of some outside funding. Some questions I have are; What is the comparative cost to the consumer in relation to taking a private charter bus sponsored by The Bar or someplace else? What would the travel time on the return trip be compared to a bus?

The train doesn't pull up to Soldier Field the way a bus can so there would be travel from the train to the stadium and the logistics of moving a large number of people like that might be a turnoff to some.

If there was already passenger train service, sponsors like The Bar could reserve an entire car for its patrons.

Years ago my parents took a train trip in Canada on the Algoma Central Railway (http://www.agawacanyontourtrain.com/index.html) and had a wonderful time. I hope to someday take the Snow Train trip.

I was thinking about this again today during the Packer-Bear game: Maybe MGK920 or one of our other transportation experts on this board can answer this:

Would it be possible to set up some sort of "charter train" to run from Green Bay/Fox Cities to Chicago just for a special event like a Packer-Bear game?

I know I've seen pics like this one from 1999 (http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ekSEtH3sSsa9TrknbprMhw?feat=directlink) where there were passenger trains running on freight lines for whatever special purpose. How difficult is it to get something like this organized?

I'm thinking a "Charter Choo Choo to Chicago" of sorts could be a heck of a tour package deal, a lot of fun if it's set up right. You advertise and promote the hell out of that, interview some of the passengers on the trip on TV and whatnot about what a great experience it was to get to Chicago and the game without driving, and bam! you've got some awesome publicity which could help get regular service back up here.

Just a thought..maybe another crazy idea....anyone care to comment?

P.S. I am updating Packerland Annals with some stuff you guys might dig. "Part 1" is a bit of a rehash of some stuff we yakked about years ago, but Part 2 and 3 will be newer shit. Click the link below:
Besides having to deal with the guys at Canadian National, although if/when common-carrier service returns to NE Wisconsin organizers could schedule such trains under that service's auspices, there is no stop that is very convenient for such a service to terminate at Soldier Field - it would have to terminate at Union Station with a shuttle bus connection to go the rest of the way. I do believe that there is a METRA Electric station near Soldier Field, but that is a completely different line that terminates at the Randolph St station at the northwest corner of Grant Park - on the opposite side of downtown Chicago from Union Station.

That would be kind of like a stop for game-day trains for games at Green Bay. A 'special event' platform at Lombardi Ave would need shuttle buses for the rest of the trip, although unlike with Union Station and Soldier Field, that crossing IS close enough to Lambeau Field that some fans might opt to hoof it the rest of the way instead.

Interesting here is that for Bears fans who park at the Grant Park 'undergound', there is a shuttle bus service that uses a dedicated separate roadway for that connection. The roadway that it uses snakes its way uninterrupted from the north end of Grant Park along the IC tracks to the Soldier Field area.

Mike

I thought this was interesting and has some applications for Green Bay, in today's USA today:

Buffalo charges ahead into past (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-12-14-buffalo_N.htm)

Also, Green Bay is mentioned in a recent episode of the "KunstlerCast" !!
-episode 92

P.S. I am updating Packerland Annals with some stuff you guys might dig. "Part 1" is a bit of a rehash of some stuff we yakked about years ago, but Part 2 and 3 will be newer shit. Click the link below:

If you haven't checked out Puant's post, do it. Here's my thoughts on it. I like the idea of the new street being added in (Navarino Way) but only if it is pedestrian friendly. Two lanes, wide sidewalks that kind of thing. The atruim would be very appropriate for those unpredictable WI winters and could be multiuse. Convention area, restaurants, banquet hall, weddings? A tall tower is what I think DT is really missing, a landmark that can be seen for a couple miles around and would add some real modernity to the area, think of a postcard with that background. It would also provide more housing DT which is also needed. Only complaint is that it will make the Baylake CityCenter look bad. What a missed oppertunity that block was. Awesome, love it, can't wait to see the upcoming posts.

Also, Green Bay is mentioned in a recent episode of the "KunstlerCast" !!
-episode 92

That was the first time I've listened to the KunstlerCast, and it shall probably be the last. It's like listening to the bizarro Glenn Beck. There's some truth to his analysis of the problems we face, but then the conclusions he draws are just pure conjecture, and in same ways come off as "you need to listen to me because the sky is falling," much like how I feel about Beck. I mean, Asian pirates off the west coast, the dissolution of the US and the merging of the Great Lakes parts of Canada and the US, every single part of the US facing dramatic population decline. There's just no evidence to support any of these crazy specifics he gets into, and he leaves no room really for innovation to help anything. If he wants to say that our energy policy needs to change and if not that are likely to be serious impacts, and then go onto talk about practical things we can do, I have time for that. I do not have time to listen to an hour or crazy conjecture. He should write science fiction if he wants to get into that.

Good to see those renderings coming back. I really find it fascinating how many truly engaged people we have in the GB area (mostly on this board) that have an active interest in advancing DT and GB as a whole. I can only imagine the dozens? hundreds? that just view this board or don't even know about it that could have an impact.

Puant, by you opening up the discussion on your proposal from years ago, it somewhat "forces" us to keep the big ideas alive (not that it is a problem on this board). People always ask "what can I do?" and your example of the local media running with your idea years ago is proof that our efforts can lead to something. It was great to re-read your Part 1 and view the fly-by. It definitely has some ideas turning in my head. I look very much forward to Parts 2 and 3. BTW, what applications did you use to create your mock-up and the fly-by? As always, great work!

Metro transit, library, YWCA, St. Norbert to receive Omnibus funds

Press-Gazette • December 15, 2009

The Green Bay Metro transit system, Brown County Library, St. Norbert College and the Green Bay-De Pere YWCA are among the recipients of funds from the federal Omnibus Appropriations Act.

The legislation provides more than $5 million in investments to projects, organizations and activities in Northeastern Wisconsin, according to U.S. Rep. Steve Kagen, D-Appleton.

Green Bay Metro will receive $1.1 million for buses and facilities, Kagen said in a statement released this afternoon.

St. Norbert College will get $910,000 for programs in science, technology, engineering and math.

The bill provides $300,000 for renovations and other updates at the Brown County Library, and $600,000 for the YWCA after-school programs.

“These projects were requested by our local leaders who rely on me to bring federal funding back home,” Kagen said. “I am going to bat every day for families and businesses in Northeast Wisconsin and the results show.”

The legislation is intended to provide immediate relief to families hit hard during the economic crisis as well as long-term projects to grow the economy.

It also expands funding for services to veterans, including more mental health services, health care in rural areas and assistance to homeless veterans.

Does anybody know precisely what the $1.1M will go towards for GB Transit? I know it says buses and facilities, but I thought we just got a few new buses and am wondering what will be done with the facilities? Its a good chunk of change, so hopefully it can go to improve ridership and the experience of taking a bus.

That was the first time I've listened to the KunstlerCast, and it shall probably be the last. It's like listening to the bizarro Glenn Beck. I do not have time to listen to an hour or crazy conjecture. He should write science fiction if he wants to get into that.

"Bizarro Glenn Beck" :lol: So true!

I usually listen because it's entertaining, you just can't take it too seriously. You jumped into perhaps the craziest episode as far as conjecture goes, it's too bad you didn't start with one like #43 or one of the others. He does a very nice job, IMO, explaining what good urbanism can be and other things. That said, throughout history every civilization does eventually collapse and ours will too, someday. Kunstler seems to think ours will relatively soon (for reasons he very eloquently lays out in his books)...but in my opinion I just don't think so...Unless the Mayans were correct with their calendars :nuts:

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=11682324

http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/ki-convention-center-expansion-plans

If you haven't checked out Puant's post, do it. Here's my thoughts on it. I like the idea of the new street being added in (Navarino Way) but only if it is pedestrian friendly. Two lanes, wide sidewalks that kind of thing. The atruim would be very appropriate for those unpredictable WI winters and could be multiuse. Convention area, restaurants, banquet hall, weddings? A tall tower is what I think DT is really missing, a landmark that can be seen for a couple miles around and would add some real modernity to the area, think of a postcard with that background. It would also provide more housing DT which is also needed. Only complaint is that it will make the Baylake CityCenter look bad. What a missed oppertunity that block was. Awesome, love it, can't wait to see the upcoming posts.

I appreciate the comments. I know this is probably getting old for people on this forum as it was discussed ad nauseum years ago.

Only complaint is that it will make the Baylake CityCenter look bad.

I don't think it needs much help. :ohno: A bit more seriously, though, I was looking at one perspective from what is now the parking lot in front of BayLake (here (http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/0b4Z_sipwrzVUtmQyjp1fQ?feat=directlink))...With a tower rising up behind it, I think it all looks a little better...more urban at least.

Good to see those renderings coming back. I really find it fascinating how many truly engaged people we have in the GB area (mostly on this board) that have an active interest in advancing DT and GB as a whole. I can only imagine the dozens? hundreds? that just view this board or don't even know about it that could have an impact.

I know there are many people interested in DT, but most seem to think it's hopeless and so make it a butt of jokes.

Puant, by you opening up the discussion on your proposal from years ago, it somewhat "forces" us to keep the big ideas alive (not that it is a problem on this board). People always ask "what can I do?" and your example of the local media running with your idea years ago is proof that our efforts can lead to something. It was great to re-read your Part 1 and view the fly-by. It definitely has some ideas turning in my head. I look very much forward to Parts 2 and 3. BTW, what applications did you use to create your mock-up and the fly-by? As always, great work!
thx.

I'm using Google Sketchup (http://sketchup.google.com/index.html), a free download. It's pretty easy to use once you get the hang of it, and there are many free finished models you can download from the "3D warehouse" to get you started.

It helps to have a fun topic to work on. The tower/atrium was really the first thing I did and it kept me driven to learn the software. Later came the baseball stadium (the stadium itself also a download from 3D warehouse) and I did most of that on a rainy Sunday up in Door County. The stuff I put out there really didn't take as long as it might seem. I really don't have much free time with 3 young kids and all sorts of other things going on.

I think it would be great if more of you started modeling Green Bay. Maybe we could share the "base" models in Google Earth and amongst ourselves, and then insert your ideas for new things also. I've got some true-to-scale models I'd be willing to share, if you're interested let me know: puant1@gmail.com

Great to hear that they are still kicking the tires on the KI expansion. Although not directly related, the demolition of the mall would be great to get put in there. Not quite pork spending, maybe more like pork rinds? :nuts:

Green Bay City Council temporarily suspends Vicenzi's liquor license
BY CHARLES DAVIS • CEDAVIS@GREENBAYPRESSGAZETTE.COM • DECEMBER 17, 2009

The Green Bay City Council voted Tuesday night in favor of an agreement to suspend the liquor license of Vicenzi's nightclub for 30 days.


"It gives him an opportunity to improve but it also puts some very severe punishment on him if he doesn't," said Council President Chris Wery.

The council voted 8-4 to suspend the "Class B" Combination License on Jan. 4 and reinstate it Feb. 3. Council members Anthony Theisen, Dan Piton, Celestine Jeffreys and Guy Zima cast the dissenting votes.

The council voted in June not to renew the liquor license for Vicenzi's, 301 N. Adams St., due to an allegedly high number of police calls to the nightclub. The bar was allowed to continue operation pending owner John Solberg's appeal.

A quasi-judicial hearing was set to take place in the Protection and Welfare Committee after Solberg appealed, but it had yet to take place due to cancellations and rescheduling.

Under the agreement, Solberg will drop his lawsuit against the city and plead no contest to a citation of $681.00. The council voted in favor of an amendment to the agreement that will suspend the club's liquor license in the case of three convictions — in spite of a pending appeal.

"It's a harsh sentence," Solberg said after the vote, marking the end of a council meeting that lasted more than four hours.

Solberg said he has made many changes at the club in the past four months, including a stricter dress code, hiring one staff member to patrol the club's parking lot and asking a qualifying question to patrons to discourage underage minors with fake IDs from entering.

Solberg said calls to the club had dramatically decreased, but Green Bay police Lt. Bill Bongle said there was one Saturday.

The high numbers of police calls are preventable and due to poor management, Bongle added.

"If Mr. Solberg had did all the things he talked about in the last four months two years ago, we would not be here today," Bongle said. "Actions speak louder than words."

Green Bay police Chief Jim Arts said he was satisfied with the agreement.

Community members said the police calls to Vicenzi's takes police away from other priorities, including burglaries.

Councilman Guy Zima told Solberg he was nuts to sign the agreement.

"I think we should have gone to a quasi-judicial hearing," he said

Interesting ruling, but I would say it is semi-fair. I'm curious to see what impact it has on DT, if any. More importantly, I wonder if it will cause him to clean up the place a bit. Amusing quite by Zima toward the end of the article.

Interesting ruling, but I would say it is semi-fair. I'm curious to see what impact it has on DT, if any. More importantly, I wonder if it will cause him to clean up the place a bit. Amusing quite by Zima toward the end of the article.

I agree it was interesting. Having the quasi-judicial hearing to terminate the liquor license would leave the city's decision open to appeal in circuit court. So with this agreement the city avoided that potential mess.

Broadway District retail doing well this Christmas in spite of predictions, according to WBAY (click here (http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=11696348))

Anyone here have any personal perspectives on this?

from today's paper..



December 18, 2009


Editorial: Brown County Board Chairman Guy Zima needs to go


We’re relieved that enough members of the Brown County Board stood up to Chairman Guy Zima to uphold County Executive Tom Hinz’s veto of a mean-spirited and inappropriate budget action.

Years ago Zima was a cantankerous but sometimes insightful minority voice on the board. Now he is a divisive force more interested in clinging to power than moving the county forward. In that sense he’s merely a typical politician, not the maverick he has always pretended to be.

He should have left the public stage long ago. This April’s election should be the time.

For most of his career, Zima has done all he can to undermine the authority of the county executive, whoever that executive may be. He rolled out his worn-out arguments again Wednesday night.

During its budget deliberations in November, the Zima-led board had targeted Hinz by slashing the salary of his legislative aide, hired two years ago and due to make $72,010 in 2010. Supervisors tried to cut her pay down to $64,304. The override attempt fell short by two votes.

Zima was first elected in 1976. Six years earlier, the board had concluded a lengthy debate and unanimously made Brown the first Wisconsin county to establish an elected executive with veto power. Since the first executive, his friend the late Donald Holloway, left office in 1987, Zima has fought all of the succeeding executives whether they brought to the table a conservative, liberal or moderate philosophy.

Four different executives, in Zima’s mind, have undermined the legislative power of the county board by exercising more of their statutory authority than Holloway did. It’s as if Zima resists the idea that an elected administrator, chosen in a countywide election, should have the authority to check and balance the board’s actions.

You could hear echoes of that long-settled debate in Zima’s remarks Wednesday, when he said the veto was “a sneaky way to undermine our authority.”

Thursday afternoon, Zima said $72,010 was too much for what he said amounts to “a go-fer for Mr. Hinz.” At $64,304, he said, she would still be making as much money as many county employees who are managing departments and supervising many other workers.

If the position was vacant, Zima continued, there would be no controversy over the board’s original decision. But therein lies the rub: The position is filled, and a single county employee — who happens to work for the county executive — was being told to take more than a 10 percent pay cut.

The perceived “sneakiness” came in Hinz’s move to veto the position’s pay level, which restored his ability to set that level and find the extra money in his discretionary budget. In an odd bit of doublespeak, the board’s attorney, Fred Mohr, told supervisors Wednesday, “Indirectly (Hinz) is breaking the law, in my mind,” but then added that the veto was, in fact, legal.

Hinz had to find a creative way to counter the board’s micromanagement of his staff — and he wasn’t breaking the law, as Mohr reluctantly acknowledged.

Like any career politician, Zima has used the power of incumbency to cling to his position for nearly 34 years. As a result anyone who challenges him in the April election faces an uphill climb, but at some point the residents of his district need to reject his antics.

Should he happen to win yet another term, voters in the other 25 supervisory districts can do us all a favor by choosing candidates who pledge not to repeat the mistake of putting this man in the position of county board chairman.

Zima always parlays his differences with anyone who dares criticize his tactics into the illusion of a David-and-Goliath battle. He’s good at portraying himself as the well-meaning friend of the people who stands up to the powers that be. But the chairman of a county board has plenty of power of his own, and Zima clearly relishes wielding it.

Maybe he was a friend of the people once upon a time. After 34 years, he’s just another entrenched power broker who protects and expands his turf through bullying and intimidation.

Enough is enough. Zima has to go.

Additional Facts
Issue
Divisive politics

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's too bad you couldn't insert the cartoon that was in the middle of the article. I tried to link it here, but couldn't get it to work.

Interesting read:

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091218/GPG0101/912180574/1978/Consultants-Prison-needs-142-million-makeover

Zima is very embarrasing for this community and DOES need to go!

You can see the Zima cartoon here:
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/hellercartoons


Somehow I don't think that Zima's constituents are going to care about a Press-Gazette editorial.

.....seems I remember somone on this site said they lived at the Rivers Edge apartments.

Do you know if Leanna gives out "finders fee/awards" like some apartment managers do?

I believe that if they were to add on to the Bay Lake City Center, that they should at the very least, make it symmetrical.

I just watched a video on Youtube that stars Guy Zima and Andy Nicholson. It was posted by Zima's challenger for district 9, Wendy Coriell.

You can watch the video on youtube. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BRfhdJ1PTw)

I just watched a video on Youtube that stars Guy Zima and Andy Nicholson. It was posted by Zima's challenger for district 9, Wendy Coriell.

You can watch the video on youtube. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BRfhdJ1PTw)

Very, very sad. I always hold out hope for a change but there are way too many that vote on memory of names they see in the headlines. These type of actions get names in the headlines but for the wrong reasons...

I'm seeing a lot of indications that the Midwest will be a major beneficiary of the "high speed train" money.

For example, there was the Transportation Secretery Ray LaHood (R) on the Daily Show (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-december-15-2009/ray-lahood) recently announcing that a major announcement on trains is coming, and mentions the Midwest first off.

There are also articles like this (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2009/12/17/rail_stimulus_funds_to_bypass_northeast/).

I'm not holding out that our little spur to Green Bay will be included this time but I think the Madison-Milwaukee-Chicago link will be a good first step for this region.

On another note, I'm wondering what the next major development in Green Bay is/will be? I noticed some cool new developments in the Broadway District. House of Homebrew moved into a sweet old building on Dousman and reactivated the first floor, and the upper floor looks to have something new going in too. Kavarna looks to be getting started on the Egyptian Revival "yellow building".

Meanwhile, the bloggers/commenters on the Press-Gazette keep beating up the downtown every chance they get (example here (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/comments/article/20091222/GPG0101/312220069/Fog-hits-downtown-Green-Bay-get-forecast-flight-delays-gas-prices))...saying nobody's down there, that there are too many vacant buildings, etc....Yet, they seem to ignore the large number of vacant big box buildings and strip malls all over the suburban strip....a much larger glaring problem than the relatively few vacant downtown shops. The mall of course is the biggest and most noticeable downtown failure, but that's just another example of the suburban model failing (only this suburban nightmare was crammed into the downtown)...if you ask me. :deadthrea A rant was needed to spice this forum up a bit.

I just watched a video on Youtube that stars Guy Zima and Andy Nicholson. It was posted by Zima's challenger for district 9, Wendy Coriell.

You can watch the video on youtube. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BRfhdJ1PTw)

I really don't see much of a difference in personalities between Zima & Wendy. There has to be other candidates out there that aren't so extreme and can represent the city better.

I think she was the one that used to have a bunch of videos on youtube making fun of the mayor and his pursuit of downtown condos. It kind of protrayed the Mayor as Hitler. It was actually a tiny bit funny, but not really appropriate for a person running for office. If it wasn't her I apologize. The videos seem to have dissapeared off of youtube now.

I'm seeing a lot of indications that the Midwest will
Meanwhile, the bloggers/commenters on the Press-Gazette keep beating up the downtown...saying nobody comes down there, that there are too many vacant buildings, etc....Yet, they seem to ignore the large number of vacant big box buildings and strip malls all over the suburban strip....a much larger glaring problem than the relatively few vacant downtown shops. The mall of course is the biggest and most noticeable downtown failure, but that's just another example of the suburban model failing (only this suburban nightmare was crammed into the downtown)...if you ask me. :deadthrea A rant was needed to spice this forum up a bit.
^^ I agree completely.

There are other problems with abandoned buildings outside of our downtown area that need to be dealt with as well.

Just look at all the abandoned buildings littering our city and suburbs lately, they include:
*Two Cub Foods locations
*A Kmart location on the east side
*A Dick's Sporting Goods building, across from Bay Park, that later housed a Circuit City
*A former Circuit City building (behind Pizza Hut on Taylor and Mason)
*The Danz Video store building on Velp Avenue (there's another location in Oconto on Main Street that closed at the same time, the owner, Dan Walls, killed his own business by putting too much focus on adult videos, rather than focusing on family entertainment. I was disappointed when they discontinued the sale of video games. The owner of Danz Video changed professions, now he runs a company called Danz Pilot Cars.)
*Hansen's (many of these locations closed)
**University Avenue: Now a Mexican restaurant
**DePere: Now a Mexican restaurant
**West Mason: Demolished, replaced by Chili's and a strip mall
**East Mason: Will become BlackStone Restaurant after Christmas
**Howard: Closed, status unknown.
**Gray Street: Closed, status unknown.
**Webster Avenue: Still open.
**Ridge Road: Now Glass Nickel Pizza Co. and Center Ice Skate & Sport
*Dan's Gas & Oil, Velp Avenue.
*Much of the Market Square strip mall on Military Avenue, across from McDonald's remains abandoned, as does the strip mall across from Taco Bell on Mason Street. There are lots of strip malls with empty spaces waiting to be filled someday.
*The former Jubilee Foods attached to ShopKo Store #1 on Military Avenue, is awaiting a new tenant, or an expansion by ShopKo to accommodate more retail space. THIS is ShopKo's first store, they need to remodel it inside and out to showcase the new ShopKo look that has graced the Lineville Road store in Suamico. This store looks as if it were stuck in 1999, the year they added Payless ShoeSource departments to their stores. Here's the store I am talking about, it is a piece of retail history:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2507/3915717803_2cd8f9d9f6.jpg
The historical marker is proof that this store is a piece of retail history. If anyone from this forum plans on going shopping here in the next month or two, please look for this marker, it is located at the front entrance, across from the Pepsi machine, on the wall to the left.

:speech:

...to sum it up, there happens to be a lot of abandoned buildings around town that are waiting to be filled or demolished in our city, as well as some unattractive buildings that need to be updated to a more attractive look, including some of the 'landmark' businesses, like the first ShopKo, for example.

^^ I agree completely.

There are other problems with abandoned buildings outside of our downtown area that need to be dealt with as well.

Just look at all the abandoned buildings littering our city and suburbs lately, they include:

*A former Circuit City building (behind Pizza Hut on Taylor and Mason)


Well I have heard that the WDOT will be occupying this building for the BILLION Dollar 41 construction project.

Its also crazy to hear that the E. Mason St. Hansens will become a Blackstone, do you know if this is an addition or replacement?

I really don't see much of a difference in personalities between Zima & Wendy. There has to be other candidates out there that aren't so extreme and can represent the city better.

I think she was the one that used to have a bunch of videos on youtube making fun of the mayor and his pursuit of downtown condos. It kind of protrayed the Mayor as Hitler. It was actually a tiny bit funny, but not really appropriate for a person running for office. If it wasn't her I apologize. The videos seem to have dissapeared off of youtube now.

Yeah, that was her with the videos about the mayor. She has a bunch of videos about Zima and the city not doing anything about the rat problem on the near west side and that issue seems to be the motivation to run for alder. Just do a Youtube search for "Guy Zima Green Bay".

She might not even get on the ballot if she doesn't get enough nomination signatures. We won't know until a couple of weeks from now when the nomination paperwork needs to be turned in.

There doesn't seem to be anybody else interested in the job.

^^ I agree completely.

There are other problems with abandoned buildings outside of our downtown area that need to be dealt with as well.

Just look at all the abandoned buildings littering our city and suburbs lately, they include:
*Two Cub Foods locations
*A Kmart location on the east side
*A Dick's Sporting Goods building, across from Bay Park, that later housed a Circuit City
*A former Circuit City building (behind Pizza Hut on Taylor and Mason)
*The Danz Video store building on Velp Avenue (there's another location in Oconto on Main Street that closed at the same time, the owner, Dan Walls, killed his own business by putting too much focus on adult videos, rather than focusing on family entertainment. I was disappointed when they discontinued the sale of video games. The owner of Danz Video changed professions, now he runs a company called Danz Pilot Cars.)
*Hansen's (many of these locations closed)
**University Avenue: Now a Mexican restaurant
**DePere: Now a Mexican restaurant
**West Mason: Demolished, replaced by Chili's and a strip mall
**East Mason: Will become BlackStone Restaurant after Christmas
**Howard: Closed, status unknown.
**Gray Street: Closed, status unknown.
**Webster Avenue: Still open.
**Ridge Road: Now Glass Nickel Pizza Co. and Center Ice Skate & Sport
*Dan's Gas & Oil, Velp Avenue.
*Much of the Market Square strip mall on Military Avenue, across from McDonald's remains abandoned, as does the strip mall across from Taco Bell on Mason Street. There are lots of strip malls with empty spaces waiting to be filled someday.
*The former Jubilee Foods attached to ShopKo Store #1 on Military Avenue, is awaiting a new tenant, or an expansion by ShopKo to accommodate more retail space. THIS is ShopKo's first store, they need to remodel it inside and out to showcase the new ShopKo look that has graced the Lineville Road store in Suamico. This store looks as if it were stuck in 1999, the year they added Payless ShoeSource departments to their stores. Here's the store I am talking about, it is a piece of retail history:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2507/3915717803_2cd8f9d9f6.jpg
The historical marker is proof that this store is a piece of retail history. If anyone from this forum plans on going shopping here in the next month or two, please look for this marker, it is located at the front entrance, across from the Pepsi machine, on the wall to the left.

:speech:

...to sum it up, there happens to be a lot of abandoned buildings around town that are waiting to be filled or demolished in our city, as well as some unattractive buildings that need to be updated to a more attractive look, including some of the 'landmark' businesses, like the first ShopKo, for example.

yikes, fat-fingered (full disclosure - truly, I drunk-fingered) and I don't know if my last half-post is going to show up. anyway...

Hansen's -

I grew up on the east side & went to Hansen's on University all the time. It was the greatest place ever. Awesome pizza, great chicken, etc. Years later I bought my first house, on Roy Ave., a block off Gray. We were a block from Hansen's on Gray & walked/biked there many, many nights - either for dinner or just for ice cream. At some point, the company was sold. I remember vividly that the food drastically went down hill. It was clear that someone was trying to slash costs/quality to try to turn more profit. It didn't work. Quality was down & prices were up.. It got to the point where Hansen's was a last resort. If I was too lazy/too tired/it was too late, I'd go there for food, but only if there wasn't a good alternative. I remember a few years ago, they had a big hoopla about bringing back the original hansen's chicken. I went. It was much better, more like I had remembered - but they also jacked up the prices. At this point it was something like 7 or 8 bucks for a 2 piece chicken dinner & 8 bucks for a pizza - completely out of line for what you should pay. To put it in perspective, you could get a large papa murphy's pizza for what you paid for a hansen's pizza...

Long story short, if that''s possible, is that I don't blame Hansen's failure on the economy or anything related. I blame it on a company trying to rest on it's reputation & cut corners. People caught on, quit going, & they went under. I'm not surprised...


On another note...

We moved out to Suamico in November. I cannot believe how much I miss living in the middle of the city. We're in a nice apartment, & realistically, not too far from grocery, Shopko, etc.. But it just doesn't feel the same. I always thought that I'd hate living in the country. This is proving my point. Thank....someone....that it's temporary.

St Norberts Mulva library is the latest in the series. I've driven by that building many times, had no idea it was so unique & contemporary inside. I think it's a great example of how modern styles can blend with traditional. Hopefully downtown can take a lesson from this..

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091223/GPG04/912230637

Its also crazy to hear that the E. Mason St. Hansens will become a Blackstone, do you know if this is an addition or replacement?

I would assume as the signs all say Blackstone EAST it is an addition. :)

Yay... Can't wait for it to be smokefree all the time so I can enjoy that greasey food more often.. :)

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=11682324

http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/ki-convention-center-expansion-plans


This may be a silly question, but why did they re-orientate the traffic lights at that intersection to a vertical positioning? I'm seeing this being done a lot in Milwaukee as well.

One easy way to tell Wisconsin apart from other states is that we have our overhead traffic lights positioned horizontally. That was always something I found to be uniquely Wisconsin.

^^

WisDOT policy has recently changed to encourage the vertical positioning of overhead traffic signals, so you will be seeing more of that. A few other states still have horizontal positioning in the "trombone arms" such as New Jersey.

There is another factor unique to Wisconsin is that they still have many pole-mounted signals and almost always at least one of them on the front side of the intersection, a policy not found anywhere else.

^^ Yes, that is a very nice policy. In some states (Indiana and Michigan come to mind) which hang traffic lights on overhead cables, it is sometimes extremely difficult to see the signal, especially when the only signal is practically over the car.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

^^ Yes, that is a very nice policy. In some states (Indiana and Michigan come to mind) which hang traffic lights on overhead cables, it is sometimes extremely difficult to see the signal, especially when the only signal is practically over the car.
^^ In Maine, they also hang some road signs on cables, in addition to hanging traffic lights.

^^ In Maine, they also hang some road signs on cables, in addition to hanging traffic lights.
I'm thinking that in the states along the Gulf of Mexico and Atlantic Ocean coasts that signals hanging from span wires are more robust in hurricanes than if they were on solid poles and mast arms.

Mike

I would have actually thought the opposite.

Also from an astheitical standpoint, the pole-hung light just look so much more fitting with urban scenery. Can you imagine downtown chicago with cable-drawn traffic signals at every intersection?

Since things have been slow lately, I found this article on some of the history of the Hotel Northland in the Press Gazette. This is an interesting read.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091228/GPG04/912280536

Since things have been slow lately, I found this article on some of the history of the Hotel Northland in the Press Gazette. This is an interesting read.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091228/GPG04/912280536

Be nice if it could bring back opposing football teams back to Green Bay again if fixed up.

^^Loved the article on Hotel Northland. As I've said before, this building is the most-frequently googled article (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2008/01/hotel-northland-port-plaza-towers.html)I've posted on my blog according to my web site stats. There's something about Hotel Northland (this could be a movie starring Ben Stiller and Brett Favre).

Since things are slow, here's another article (http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/hc-commentarygold.artdec27,0,821376.story) you might find interesting.

Although I'd rather see the Regional Rail first, a small downtown trolley loop need not start that much later. By the way, I saw a plan that included a potential Ashwaubenon Trolley that connected Lambeau, the Resch, Tundra Lodge, and Bay Park Square mall. If this thing is ever built then there should definitely be a link to downtown like I show here (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=105417852065100541309.00044d8d9804ac387b164&ll=44.515542,-88.012333&spn=0.020962,0.039825&t=h&z=15).

I would like if we had more developments to talk about than transit but there just isn't a whole lot going on, and I think this is a good time to focus on the infrastructure that will bring future developments. I think we see that building more freeways can connect cities in a better way, but they don't really do much for the cities themselves (in fact freeways inside a city hurt more than they help). We're doing the billion-dollar USH 41 expansion thing...next let's make sure that all those additional people that come to GB on that freeway have actual destinations and jobs to go to. How about spending just a fraction of that cost on putting in some streetcars? Is it really that crazy? People like "Park Once". Let them park whereever they end up, in Ashwaubenon or wherever, and then explore the city without hassling with downtown parking.

Yesterday, I noticed the progress on the new Shell gas station is being made at Pioneer Plaza on the intersection of Velp Avenue and Gray Street. One of the things I noticed about this Shell gas station in particular, is that the canopy is different. Yes, it is yellow with a red light strut, but instead of ending with the Shell wordmark, like on most Shell stations in our city, this one ends with a Shell "scallop" logo in a sign cabinet. The convenience store will be in the middle of the strip mall, with the pumps in front of it. No word on whether it will be a GCS or not. I'm guessing it will just simply be called "Pioneer Shell," since the nearest GCS is a BP franchise.

Anyone want to make some predictions for GB & the US in the coming year?

Will watermark break ground?

Will Guy be re-elected?

Will gas climb over $5/gal?

Will the economy improve?

Will rail gain momentum?

Will we see Natural Gas cars?

Will Port Plaza finally come down?

I could go on and on...

Will watermark break ground? :lol: Noooo.

Will Guy be re-elected? :ohno: Yes

Will gas climb over $5/gal? :bash: no

Will the economy improve? :ohno: Not much

Will rail gain momentum? :nuts: Seriously doubt it.

Will we see Natural Gas cars? :ohno: We'll see them at car shows and never see production

Will Port Plaza finally come down? :wallbash: This is Green Bay. It will happen when it actually falls down 30 years from now...

Anyone want to make some predictions for GB & the US in the coming year? YES!

Will watermark break ground? yes

Will Guy be re-elected? yes

Will gas climb over $5/gal? yes+

Will the economy improve? yes, temporarily

Will rail gain momentum? yes

Will we see Natural Gas cars?
sorry, we need it to heat our homes, too bad we have reached "peak natural gas"

Will Port Plaza finally come down? i wish, but not yet

YEAR IN REVIEW
December 31, 2010

In February, city leaders argued over whether the victory parade for the Super Bowl Champion Green Bay Packers should be downtown or on Broadway. Ashwaubenon village leaders argued it should be at neither location but in front of Baypark Square on Oneida St.

In April, Walgreens moved into the vacated ShopKo Express site.

In June, Austin Straubel International Airport lived up to its name as an International Airport when an Air Canada flight enroute to Thunder Bay mistakingly landed there.

In August city leaders took Georgia Pacific up on their offer to use Port Plaza Mall as a warehouse for toilet paper.

In October, Vetter Denk asked for a three month extension to finalizing financing for WaterMark.

In December, Packer fans were giddy with their teams number one seed for the upcoming playoffs. Tee-shirts with "Re-Packed for the Super Bowl" were making a brisk sale.

YEAR IN REVIEW
December 31, 2010

In February, city leaders argued over whether the victory parade for the Super Bowl Champion Green Bay Packers should be downtown or on Broadway. Ashwaubenon village leaders argued it should be at neither location but in front of Baypark Square on Oneida St.

In April, Walgreens moved into the vacated ShopKo Express site.

In June, Austin Straubel International Airport lived up to its name as an International Airport when an Air Canada flight enroute to Thunder Bay mistakingly landed there.

In August city leaders took Georgia Pacific up on their offer to use Port Plaza Mall as a warehouse for toilet paper.

In October, Vetter Denk asked for a three month extension to finalizing financing for WaterMark.

In December, Packer fans were giddy with their teams number one seed for the upcoming playoffs. Tee-shirts with "Re-Packed for the Super Bowl" were making a brisk sale.


you forgot, "after a tearful re-re-retirement from the vikings and several months of 'will he? won't he?' discussion, brett favre returns to the vikings as quarterback, head coach, and GM.

His first move was to order brad childress to drive him around town & call him 'miss daisy'.

His second move was to film a new commercial showing that he's SUCH a good 'ole boy that he wears 2 pairs of wranglers at the same time.

you forgot, "after a tearful re-re-retirement from the vikings and several months of 'will he? won't he?' discussion, brett favre returns to the vikings as quarterback, head coach, and GM.

His first move was to order brad childress to drive him around town & call him 'miss daisy'.

His second move was to film a new commercial showing that he's SUCH a good 'ole boy that he wears 2 pairs of wranglers at the same time.

Too true! How could I have forgotten Brett? :bash:

OMG. From the WUWM website.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/061a85ea-87a1-4c7a-8d0d-71f6c54eb99.jpg

Milwaukee Police Department Photo No. X7544-sg45



A partner in a Milwaukee architectural and property development firm was arrested this morning when he allegedly pulled a gun on a loan banker at a downtown bank.

John Vetter, principal with Vetter Denk Architecture, Inc., is charged with endangering safety by conduct regardless of life and is being held on a $50,000 cash bond. He's scheduled to appear Monday in Milwaukee County Teen Court.

If convicted of the felony charge, Vetter faces up to 10 years of hard labor in prison with Huber Law privileges. A spokesperson for Vetter Denk declined comment.

Milwaukee police said Vetter walked into Associated Bank, 200 E. Wisconsin Ave., at 9:42 a.m. for a scheduled appointment and proceeded to the bank's loan department.

Police said surveillance video showed a man engaging in a sometimes-animated discussion for 20 minutes with a loan banker, identified only as M. Belt.

The video showed the assailant then pulled what police said was an unloaded Black & Decker handgun and pointed it at Belt's desk nameplate. Witnesses say the assailant shouted, "What's wrong with you people? Give me a loan."

Bank security guards immediately wrestled the attacker to the ground. No shots were fired and no injuries were reported.

Milwaukee Police Chief Edward Flynn said Vetter has no prior police record but has been ejected three times from Brewers games for shouting obscenities.

According to Mark Kass, editor of The Business Journal of Milwaukee, Vetter and partner Kelly Denk co-founded Vetter Denk in 1985. Located in the Fifth Ward at 161 S. First St., the firm has designed and built custom homes, redeveloped the Beerline Neighborhood, and initiated other condo, retail and office projects in Sheboygan and the Fox Valley.

Vetter told The Business Journal two months ago the building and construction sector was turning around but only in small increments. “Lending practices are still frozen and real estate investment dollars are nonexistent,” Vetter said.

"John's a good guy," Kass said when contacted by WUWM. "He just needs some help."

Anyone want to make some predictions for GB & the US in the coming year?

Will watermark break ground? Never

Will Guy be re-elected? Of Course.... he will take out the little old ladies trash cans... and he does get things done for his voters... (who would not want to get Guy out of their office or off the phone as fast as possible??)

Will gas climb over $5/gal? Nope

Will the economy improve? Yes, in about 16-18 months

Will rail gain momentum? Yes - link to GRB about 2020

Will we see Natural Gas cars? I used to drive a LP gas CAB in Oshkosh during the 80's - the company there got a state or federal grant to do it... only drawback was - they were retrofits... and you had to track your mileage to know when to get a fill up... if the last driver was sloppy or idled alot... you run out in the middle of town opposite where we filled up..

Will Port Plaza finally come down? Yes the snow load will collapse the roof on or about April 1st during a freak snowstorm that dumps 3 feet - of course the posters from here shoveling off from the Baylake building onto the mall did not hurt... :)

Trolley route downtown... Starts May 1st :)

Anyone want to make some predictions for GB & the US in the coming year? Why, yes!

Will watermark break ground? Maybe...

Will Guy be re-elected? I hope not.

Will gas climb over $5/gal? If it means gas climbing over $10/gal in Europe, heck no!

Will the economy improve? I hope so.

Will rail gain momentum? I hope it does. As much as I like the buses we have in our city, we need an alternative form of transportation.

Will we see Natural Gas cars? Not for another ten years.

Will Port Plaza finally come down? I'm no genie, but I wish I could simply make it disappear overnight. That mall sat abandoned three years too many, and water damage from snow and rain have set in, causing it to rot from the skylights to the interior. It needs to be torn down, so that a planned city block can be built beyond the proposed Hotel Northland, connecting that part of Adams Street to the KI Center.

xxxxx

Anyone want to make some predictions for GB & the US in the coming year?

Will watermark break ground? To an outsider, it doesn't look good. But who knows what's going on behind the scenes? The city is really counting on this project. Hard to imagine the Younkers building remaining vacant beyond 2010.

Will Guy be re-elected? He'll never go away. Press-Gazette editorials only reinforce his the-world-is-out-to-get-me complex.

Will gas climb over $5/gal? No.

Will the economy improve? Yes, modestly. It already is, but credit remains tight. GDP back in the black. Stocks up. Consumer confidence has ticked up the last two months. More stimulus spending next year, and a jobs bill is under consideration. Job losses have declined considerably, and some return to job growth looks imminent. Unemployment expected to edge down by spring. Housing starts up, though foreclosures remain a big problem. Banking system has stabilized, though individual banks will continue to close in 2010. Politically, the economy will be painted as a disaster.

Will rail gain momentum? Yes, in Madison. Not yet or not in the foreseeable future in Green Bay.

Will we see Natural Gas cars? Not in Green Bay.

Will Port Plaza finally come down? Guessing no, unless stimulus funding were to come through. Perhaps the mayor would propose funding the demolition in his 2011 budget.

I could go on and on...

Lol poor Vetter! So this is why the GB forum is the largest in the midwest, we have Tower Park producing faux news reports! Lol, TP you should start an Onion type publication in this area/for this area, call it "Eating Cheese."

Personally I have merely been reading the posts and not saying anything because there is NOTHING to talk about obviously, man ist been boring...lol. At least something is guaranteed in the short term, the VA clinic, im very excited about that. Ah, just remembered, it will be interesting to see how quickly that new retail/residential area will be developed west of town off of highway 29 in Howard.

About a trolley, if Kenosha can do it, we can.

ANNNND of course, highway 41; If some of you are wondering WHEN it will be labeled as an interstate of any number, there are still a few low clearences north of Appleton such as County road J overpass in Kaukauna is 14feet 9 inches, the highway 47 overpasses though are in the 15 foot range are still under standard of what I believe is 16 feet and 9 inches. And im not sure of the height of the Mason St overpass but it seems that might be substandard as well. Also the distance between the Wisconsin Ave interchange and College Ave interchange in Appleton are too close together and requires the use of an auxillary lane in each direction to get close to federal interstate standards - However a project to add those has been announced and is supposed to start construction I think in 2012.

Some things that have happened while I've been away from the board. Some have been brought up already.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde-40-2.jpg http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/greenb1.jpg

The state is considering a $142 million expansion project for the Green Bay Correctional Institution starting in 2011. The expansion would take place behind the prison's current walls on its 29-acre site in Allouez and double its official capacity to 1,500 inmates, making it the largest prison in Wisconsin. No decision yet. Press-Gazette map above.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/green-bay.jpg

The Redevelopment Authority is looking at options for expanding the KI Convention Center. The possibility of expanding into the former JCPenney store across the street apparently has been ruled out as not feasible. A consultant's presentation is expected in January or February. . . . The Redevelopment Authority is giving $20,000 to the Military Avenue Business Association to help market Military Avenue next year when the street is torn up for reconstruction.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/BroadwayDist1_lg.jpg

Prophit Marketing/About Me International is moving in May into one of the Direct Development-built buildings in the Broadway District. It's at 154 N. Broadway, at Hubbard Street. Dessange hair salon and Monzu bistro will remain as tenants. The building had been taken over by a lender; the purchase was financed with a Small Business Administration-guaranteed loan. . . .The adult bookstore in the Olde Main Street District has been razed for redevelopment. Owners of the property indicate an office, restaurant or tavern building might eventually take its place.

The Press-Gazette reports the two brothers opening Tequila's Restaurant & Cantina (the former Stein) downtown have paid more than $4,000 in fines in the past for allowing minors in bars they've operated in De Pere (The Blu) and Green Bay (Club Toxic). One of the owners tells the paper things will be different at Tequila's, which will be principally a restaurant and not a bar. "I'm trying to get out of the (night)club business," he says. "You learn from your mistakes. That's what I'm doing."

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde-38-2.jpg http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde-39-4.jpg

As noted here before, Press-Gazette publishes long article on the Hotel Northland. Images above from a 1963 postcard and show the hotel being built before its opening in 1924.




P.S. Mugshot added to previous breaking story on John Vetter.

FiveSix Ultra Lounge, or as some know it, the West Pitcher Show building, 405 W. Walnut St., will be sold at auction Jan. 27 if a buyer is not found before.


The building near the intersection of West Walnut Street and Broadway is owned by Green Bay Packers linebacker Nick Barnett, who operated a nightclub and restaurant there from early 2005 to early 2007. Barnett abandoned the nightclub business after numerous police complaints led to a suspension of the club's liquor license.

"It has no liens on it. It is good to go," said Rick Roundy of Micoley & Co. Real Estate Auctions.

The property is listed at $290,000. Should it go to auction, the minimum acceptable bid will be $140,000, Roundy said. Barnett paid $418,000 for the building in April 2005 and invested more than $200,000 improving it.

There have been some inquiries, Roundy said, but most prospective buyers have wanted a liquor license for full bar use. The city wants an establishment that will have 60 percent food sales.

"That's been encouraged at that location for a long time," said Naletta Burr, former executive director of On Broadway Inc., which currently is without a director. "It's never been a full-fledged bar. The intention has always been something that's more community-related."

The 9,700-square-foot building could be subdivided to include a couple of smaller retail shops, Roundy said. If it takes place, the auction will be at 5 p.m. Jan. 27. Doors will open at 4 p.m. "Generally speaking, a large number of our properties are sold prior to the auction date," he said.

During its years as the West Pitcher Show, which showed second-run movies and sold food and beer, and then as FiveSix, the entrance was on Broadway, using the north end of the adjacent building owned by Ray Salter. The Broadway entrance was necessary because of a since-abandoned moratorium on liquor licenses for bars and hotels between Broadway and Military Avenue. The ordinance dated to the merger of Green Bay and Fort Howard in 1895 and was voted out in 2005.

Salter has reclaimed his space, expanding his La Cocina restaurant. The FiveSix building's original movie theater-style entrance on West Walnut is once again in use.

"It's played an important role and been a part of our community for quite a while," Burr said. "There is definitely some nostalgia that comes with that."

Will Port Plaza finally come down? Yes the snow load will collapse the roof on or about April 1st during a freak snowstorm that dumps 3 feet - of course the posters from here shoveling off from the Baylake building onto the mall did not hurt... :)

LOL!!! :lol:

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde-42-1.jpg

This Press-Gazette-published photo accompanies Night Rider's article from the paper above. I think this building started out, believe it or not, as a car dealership before it became the West Theatre. Went to movies there as a kid, including The Blob with Steve McQueen. Or was it Ben-Hur with Charlton Heston I saw there?

I hope things improve next year for our city, our state, and our country, as well as the rest of the world.

HAPPY NEW YEAR TWENTY-TEN!

This Press-Gazette photo accompanies Night Rider's article from the paper above. I think this building started out, believe it or not, as a car dealership before it became the West Theatre. Went to movies there as a kid, including The Blob with Steve McQueen. Or was it Ben-Hur with Charlton Heston I saw there?

Yea that is the same info Mark M found when he researched the history when the was renovating to the Historic West Theater... Apparently indoor showrooms were not all that uncommon in the 50's - the building on the corner of S Washington St near to Al's was once a car dealership also. The Cars were displayed on the first floor and the "stock" was kept on the upper floors. Believe it or not the freight elevator was designed just wide enough to hold a car.

Can you imagine changing the wide expanse of paved lots into multi story buildings and reclaiming green space??? :)

FiveSix Ultra Lounge, or as some know it, the West Pitcher Show building, 405 W. Walnut St., will be sold at auction Jan. 27 if a buyer is not found before.

Interesting that the auction is now pushed into Jan... first I think it was Nov then moved to Mid-December... now moved again...

Even thought the quote from the auctioneer was that most sell before auction,... I think this building will be a hard sell.

This building could be a goldmine with the right mix of live music, comedy, and other performed entertainment. But it has to be more than a "bar." Mr Barnett promised a jazz club. Maybe he should have really tried that before going "hip-hop."

I see the comedy improv troop canceled or postponed their move (dropping The Grand mess) - maybe they should move in here or buy this building??? They could do dinner and a show much more easily here.

Anyway... any thoughts out there? hehe

Interesting that the auction is now pushed into Jan... first I think it was Nov then moved to Mid-December... now moved again...

Even thought the quote from the auctioneer was that most sell before auction,... I think this building will be a hard sell.

This building could be a goldmine with the right mix of live music, comedy, and other performed entertainment. But it has to be more than a "bar." Mr Barnett promised a jazz club. Maybe he should have really tried that before going "hip-hop."

I see the comedy improv troop canceled or postponed their move (dropping The Grand mess) - maybe they should move in here or buy this building??? They could do dinner and a show much more easily here.

Anyway... any thoughts out there? hehe

We used to go to comedy city often when it was downtown, since they moved we have been there maybe twice. I heard that they were more or less forced out of their current home, not sure if I really like the idea of the Grand. Its isolated out in no where with nothing else in sight. It would be great to see them move back downtown, maybe in the Vicenzi's space?

Comedy City needs to move into the west picture show. either that or On Broadway needs to try to attrach a funny bone comedy club. those have food and beer and it's a great time at funny bone. perfect for the old west picture show

Anyway... any thoughts out there? hehe

I've been in there and the place has potential. The main issue to me would be lack of real good parking real close. There is a small lot behind the place & I'm sure they could park at M & I Bank and walk. But will people do that? A nice size, well placed (or hidden) parking ramp might help out a lot for all the businesses down there. They key is to make people feel safe in the ramp with good lighting & maybe cameras. Another side issue, is the area still has it's fair share of thugs that live and hang out in the area. In the daytime there may not be many issues, but at night they all come out of the woodwork.

I would love to see a comedy club go there, but please not another bar where they have to check people for weapons before they walk in the door. Enough is enough!

YEAR IN REVIEW
December 31, 2010

In February, city leaders argued over whether the victory parade for the Super Bowl Champion Green Bay Packers should be downtown or on Broadway. Ashwaubenon village leaders argued it should be at neither location but in front of Baypark Square on Oneida St.

In April, Walgreens moved into the vacated ShopKo Express site.

In June, Austin Straubel International Airport lived up to its name as an International Airport when an Air Canada flight enroute to Thunder Bay mistakingly landed there.

In August city leaders took Georgia Pacific up on their offer to use Port Plaza Mall as a warehouse for toilet paper.

In October, Vetter Denk asked for a three month extension to finalizing financing for WaterMark.

In December, Packer fans were giddy with their teams number one seed for the upcoming playoffs. Tee-shirts with "Re-Packed for the Super Bowl" were making a brisk sale.

What a hoot! My favorite is using Port Plaza Mall for storing rolls of toilet paper. Very practical!

We used to go to comedy city often when it was downtown, since they moved we have been there maybe twice. I heard that they were more or less forced out of their current home, not sure if I really like the idea of the Grand. Its isolated out in no where with nothing else in sight. It would be great to see them move back downtown, maybe in the Vicenzi's space?

ComedyCity/Venture Theatre is staying in downtown De Pere for the time being. There's some ownership dispute going on in court involving The Grand needing resolution. I agree, FiveSix might be a great place for a comedy club. I wonder if anyone has approached ComedyCity??

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009912310539


http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/bilde-23.jpg

The Packers continue to buy up land just south and west of the stadium for parking and/or future development, the latest news being the closure of Hardee's on Lombardi. They also own the Kmart and Big Lots properties in that area. The team, I think, is looking at eventually developing things like year-round retail, hotel, restaurants and shopping- and tourism-oriented projects to bring in more revenue for the franchise. I could see something in the area west of the stadium along the theme of "Titletown." Nothing against Kmart, but Green Bay and Ashwaubenon these days can do better than to have a Kmart next to Lambeau. Another old Lambeau Field (City Stadium) construction photo from the '50s above.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091230/GPG03/912300531/-1/archive

By the way, the Northwoods League (Bullfrogs) is expanding from 14 to 16 teams this year, with new franchises in Minnesota and Wisconsin Rapids. The Rapids franchise will have the same ownership as the Madison Mallards. If you know anything about WR, my suggestion for naming the Rapids team would be the Cranberries.

Being a non driver can not understand why anyone who drives would have a problem with walking less than 1/2 block to go to a business downtown. It does amaze me that there are people who get in their cars to go a block away to a store. I guess I will never understand that viewpoint.

I for one do not want a parking ramp built on or near Broadway. To me it would take away from the feel of the area.

There is also the unpaved lot that the Burger Company (I forget their new name) owns. That could be finished and would provide a lot of parking near the former five six.

There is a small lot behind the place & I'm sure they could park at M & I Bank and walk. But will people do that?

Will watermark break ground?No

Will Guy be re-elected?Yes

Will gas climb over $5/gal?No

Will the economy improve?No

Will rail gain momentum?No

Will we see Natural Gas cars?No

Will Port Plaza finally come down?No

I was talking to someone tonight who says the Holiday Inn downtown is looking for a buyer. So far the only interested party is Doubletree and if that deal falls through they are looking at turning the Inn into a assisted living facility. More trouble for downtown

I was talking to someone tonight who says the Holiday Inn downtown is looking for a buyer. So far the only interested party is Doubletree and if that deal falls through they are looking at turning the Inn into a assisted living facility. More trouble for downtown

I hope this deal does not fall through. I would like to see this hotel still operate as a hotel, and maybe even give it a much-needed upscale renovation and new signage to reflect the new Holiday Inn logo.

I hope this deal does not fall through. I would like to see this hotel still operate as a hotel, and maybe even give it a much-needed upscale renovation and new signage to reflect the new Holiday Inn logo.

Aside from the economy, is it possible that perspective buyers are passing since they may believe that competition would be stiff if the Hotel Northland is restored? Assuming the Doubletree information is correct and that were to fall through, I wonder if a developer would be interested into converting that hotel into condos/apartments? This would take take extensive renovation, but this would be another riverfront option. From what I understand the Flats on the Fox is 100% occupied with a waiting list. Like sponge said, update this building with a modern, urban look and market this as another downtown option that these waiting people may be interested in? I would hope that the city would retain in one way, shape or form the highest possible use of this site as they are trying to promote the riverfront and this could help increase the population base downtown.

A lot of people are venting about Vetter's projects and the downtown.

Turn on your speakers as you watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODvwB77rqD8)

Enjoy! Please keep a sense of humor about this.

A lot of people are venting about Vetter's projects and the downtown.

Turn on your speakers as you watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODvwB77rqD8)

Enjoy! Please keep a sense of humor about this.

Excellent job....funny and yet so true......I love the part where someone says there is still shopping in downtown......:lol:

I was talking to someone tonight who says the Holiday Inn downtown is looking for a buyer. So far the only interested party is Doubletree and if that deal falls through they are looking at turning the Inn into a assisted living facility. More trouble for downtown

I recall that place being on the market for some time. The hotel itself sure does need some updates. You would think that it would be attractive to the right buyer, adjacet to the KI and the River.

It seems to me that there are just too many hotels in this market, if you look around, I notice quite a few empty parking lots. At some point business travel will pick up but now I know that some are just not staying in hotels like they would have a few years ago.

here's the word on the street with the holiday inn downtown. the active owner of that hotel is a crook and has stolen a lot of the profits from the hotel and still owes roughly 4 million on the hotel. Holiday Inn will not give him the new logo "Flag" until he preforms the necessary updates that would bring it up to the new standards for Holiday Inn. the last i heard is that someone offered him 4 million for the property but he turned it down because he wants 5 million so he can make a million in profit. Like i said, a complete crook!

what they need to do it tear down that hotel and build another one on that site as to accept the convention center expansion. they need to expand that convention center west, tearing out the street and coaches corner and have 2 hotels directly feeding the convention center. that is the plan that should be sought!!

I recall that place being on the market for some time. The hotel itself sure does need some updates. You would think that it would be attractive to the right buyer, adjacet to the KI and the River.

It seems to me that there are just too many hotels in this market, if you look around, I notice quite a few empty parking lots. At some point business travel will pick up but now I know that some are just not staying in hotels like they would have a few years ago.
There was that hotel built off 172 and GV in Bellevue just a year ago and it sure looks closed whenever I drive past it, which is every day.

here's the word on the street with the holiday inn downtown. the active owner of that hotel is a crook and has stolen a lot of the profits from the hotel and still owes roughly 4 million on the hotel. Holiday Inn will not give him the new logo "Flag" until he preforms the necessary updates that would bring it up to the new standards for Holiday Inn. the last i heard is that someone offered him 4 million for the property but he turned it down because he wants 5 million so he can make a million in profit. Like i said, a complete crook!

what they need to do it tear down that hotel and build another one on that site as to accept the convention center expansion. they need to expand that convention center west, tearing out the street and coaches corner and have 2 hotels directly feeding the convention center. that is the plan that should be sought!!

...And the Days Inn across the street has one-upped their rival by upgrading their appearance to a more upscale appearance. There must be something Days Inn's owner is doing right with their profits. No longer is the Days Inn stuck in the '90s with that ugly green accent color, and the old flag logo. That building has some historical significance, being built in 1965 as the Beaumont Inn Hotel, it was later known as the Beaumont Ramada Inn in the 1970s, and it became Days Inn circa 1989 with two renovations, one in 1995, and another in 2005.

Here's how the Days Inn hotel looked in 1977 (when it was known as the Ramada Inn):
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2543/3949285976_6218fe71ed_o.jpg

The Holiday Inn across the street looks as if it was stuck in 1983. If they close that hotel, who gets more of the business? The Days Inn, Quality Inn, and Hotel Sierra, that's who.

first of all....great 1977 picture!! I love these types of picts.

as for the hotel on 172 and GV, that hotel was a subsidiarity to Ramada and that line fell into financial problems during construction. they finished the building and Holiday Inn bought the hotel and is now being renovated to be up to the Holiday Inn Standards. should be open in the comming months. apparently Ramada is still going to manage the Hotel but will have the Holiday Inn name on it. don't ask me why or how but sounds a little different

first of all....great 1977 picture!! I love these types of picts.

as for the hotel on 172 and GV, that hotel was a subsidiarity to Ramada and that line fell into financial problems during construction. they finished the building and Holiday Inn bought the hotel and is now being renovated to be up to the Holiday Inn Standards. should be open in the comming months. apparently Ramada is still going to manage the Hotel but will have the Holiday Inn name on it. don't ask me why or how but sounds a little different

Are you talking about the Guest House (upscale version of Settle Inn) ?? That is owned or managed by the Oneida Hotel Corp (they also run the Radisson at the casino and the Wingate across 172).

They are open and have been for a while. Or is there another hotel being built in that area??

no that is the hotel. that is what i meant...the Radisson will run the hotel. thank you for pointing that out. the Holiday Inn will be putting their flag on it in the coming months but the Radisson will continue to manage it. again, not sure how that all will work

A lot of people are venting about Vetter's projects and the downtown.

Turn on your speakers as you watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODvwB77rqD8)

Enjoy! Please keep a sense of humor about this.

That's about the funniest thing I've ever seen! Really well done. "Eva's going to shoot me when she finds out that Astor Place condos never got built.":hahaha:

Here's how the Days Inn hotel looked in 1977 (when it was known as the Ramada Inn).

Great photo from the '70s taken from what was then the Main Street Bridge.
_____________

Here's an assessment Sunday of the Green Bay economy for 2010 as compiled by two business reporters at the Press-Gazette. The verdict is that things are expected to improve, "but there will be rough spots." Two excerpts of note:

"The Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis recently reported that the Upper Midwest should see a gradual economic recovery this year. 'We're slowly on the mend,' regional economist Toby Madden said. 'It appears the recession is over.'"

"...(T)he latest survey from the National Association of Credit Managers shows that credit is starting to loosen up and by the middle of 2010 the lending environment is expected to look a little closer to the normal that existed in the pre-boom years."

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20100103/GPG03/1030594/-1/archive
_____________

I was talking to someone tonight who says the Holiday Inn downtown is looking for a buyer. So far the only interested party is Doubletree and if that deal falls through they are looking at turning the Inn into a assisted living facility. More trouble for downtown

what they need to do it tear down that hotel and build another one on that site as to accept the convention center expansion. they need to expand that convention center west, tearing out the street and coaches corner and have 2 hotels directly feeding the convention center. that is the plan that should be sought!!

This business about the Holiday Inn is certainly news. I wonder if the presentation through the Redevelopment Authority planned in a month or two on possible expansion of the KI Convention Center would address this Holiday Inn issue?

That's about the funniest thing I've ever seen! Really well done. "Eva's going to shoot me when she finds out that Astor Place condos never got built.":hahaha:



Great photo from the '70s taken from what was then the Main Street Bridge.
_____________

Here's an assessment Sunday of the Green Bay economy for 2010 as compiled by two business reporters at the Press-Gazette. The verdict is that things are expected to improve, "but there will be rough spots." Two excerpts of note:

"The Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis recently reported that the Upper Midwest should see a gradual economic recovery this year. 'We're slowly on the mend,' regional economist Toby Madden said. 'It appears the recession is over.'"

"...(T)he latest survey from the National Association of Credit Managers shows that credit is starting to loosen up and by the middle of 2010 the lending environment is expected to look a little closer to the normal that existed in the pre-boom years."

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20100103/GPG03/1030594/-1/archive
_____________





This business about the Holiday Inn is certainly news. I wonder if the presentation through the Redevelopment Authority planned in a month or two on possible expansion of the KI Convention Center would address this Holiday Inn issue?


On the surface, I don't blame Holiday Inn for not updating. With limited conventions, etc., going on downtown, their business will be limited no matter what. I can tell you how many more people they would attract by having a more updated hotel - basically, zero. Hotels are primarily about location. I travel quite a bit for my job & I can tell you that the #1 criteria in picking a hotel is location. I want something close to the airport, close to where I'm working, etc. If this was, say, Florida, & people came here for vacations, they might be looking for more "luxury".

If/when the KI Center expands, and business picks up at Holiday Inn, I wouldn't be surprised if they moved forward with renovations.

BTW, someone mentioned converting the hotel into condo's. That could be interesting. It sounds like the KI Center has ruled out the old Penny's location for expansion, so down the road if more hotel space was needed, that could be a possible location, with a skywalk to the KI Center..

I can tell you how many more people they would attract by having a more updated hotel - basically, zero.

Not to be harsh, but all that tells us is that you select a hotel based on location. Even if you are considering location, there is still a decent amount of business that is done downtown. Those guests have the options of the Holiday Inn, Days Inn, Hotel Seria.. (any others I am missing)? If I have a few hotels in the same general area I am definitely looking at staying at the nicer hotels. I have a hard time believing that upgrading the hotel would result in no additional occupancy. Another thing to consider is cost, especially with the economy the way it is. I'm not sure what the costs are for each (have only stayed at Hotel Sierra), but if they are able to renovate and keep their costs comparable or lower that also plays in their favor.

Not to be harsh, but all that tells us is that you select a hotel based on location. Even if you are considering location, there is still a decent amount of business that is done downtown. Those guests have the options of the Holiday Inn, Days Inn, Hotel Seria.. (any others I am missing)? If I have a few hotels in the same general area I am definitely looking at staying at the nicer hotels. I have a hard time believing that upgrading the hotel would result in no additional occupancy. Another thing to consider is cost, especially with the economy the way it is. I'm not sure what the costs are for each (have only stayed at Hotel Sierra), but if they are able to renovate and keep their costs comparable or lower that also plays in their favor.
There's also the Quality Inn (formerly Best Western) on Washington Street.

On the surface, I don't blame Holiday Inn for not updating. With limited conventions, etc., going on downtown, their business will be limited no matter what. I can tell you how many more people they would attract by having a more updated hotel - basically, zero. Hotels are primarily about location. I travel quite a bit for my job & I can tell you that the #1 criteria in picking a hotel is location. I want something close to the airport, close to where I'm working, etc. If this was, say, Florida, & people came here for vacations, they might be looking for more "luxury".


Sorry, but there is a convention damn near every week.

Their parking lot is the fullest of any downtown hotel on a consistent basis, I see it everyday.

Business travelers do look for luxury. You always take advantage of the nicest hotel close to your destination within the means of your budget. Yes, I travel as well.

You aren't making a lot of sense with the Florida business.

You are correct in stating that location is everything, but honestly, how much business is done within close proximity of the Aloft? Little to none. Didn't stop them from building a hotel there. Mall workers don't travel. There is a reason the Holiday Inn there went out of business and opened a new location closer to the Ashwaubenon business park west of 41. Anyways, that is beyond my point. A ton of business is done downtown, I don't know why I have to keep repeating it. Suburban hotels take business away from downtown hotels because of easy travel by car and just plain better hotels.

Something else is going on there. Guessing the rumor isn't true or the embezzlement deal is a ringer.

Not to be harsh, but all that tells us is that you select a hotel based on location. Even if you are considering location, there is still a decent amount of business that is done downtown. Those guests have the options of the Holiday Inn, Days Inn, Hotel Seria.. (any others I am missing)? If I have a few hotels in the same general area I am definitely looking at staying at the nicer hotels. I have a hard time believing that upgrading the hotel would result in no additional occupancy. Another thing to consider is cost, especially with the economy the way it is. I'm not sure what the costs are for each (have only stayed at Hotel Sierra), but if they are able to renovate and keep their costs comparable or lower that also plays in their favor.

I understand your point, but I have a hard time believing that any of the hotels downtown are full, except home Packer weekends. I know that the hotel parking lot at Holiday Inn looks full many times, but they also have weddings at the hotel and Coaches Corner next door. I could be wrong, but I doubt that cars exactly equates to booked rooms. My point was only that if H.I.'s occupancy rate is, say, 30%, does it make financial sense to spend potentially millions to get that up to 35%. those numbers are a guess, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were close.

Remember a year or two ago when there was a CO leak at the Days Inn downtown? They said that they had to evacuate something like 8 rooms that were occupied.

Periods of low occupancy can be the perfect time for hotels to renovate for the following reasons:

A) With less guests inhouse you are disrupting less people with construction noise
B) You can close large areas of the hotel for renovation and have no need to relocate existing reservations

That said, I have little knowledge of the hotel management company that operates the HI in DT GB. Perhaps they're just trying to squeeze every possible penny they can get out of the place and eventually sell it. Also, perhaps they have no money available to renovate.

Sorry, but there is a convention damn near every week.


Business travelers do look for luxury. You always take advantage of the nicest hotel close to your destination within the means of your budget. Yes, I travel as well.




I'll speak for myself only here, but "luxury" isn't much of a factor. #1 is location. #2 is finding a hotel that's part of the chain where I usually stay, so I can accumulate all of my frequent stay point. I generally stay at Marriott hotels, for example. If I usually stayed at Holiday Inn's & that one was near where I was working, I'd stay there. If I normally stay at, say, Days Inn, & I've heard that the Holiday Inn is nicer, it wouldn't sway me. My point about Florida is this - when I'm traveling for business, I spend very little time in my room. I'm either at work or out with clients. The time in my room is primarily for sleep or doing a little work. I don't really care what it looks like. On the other hand, if my wife & I go on vacation, I know that she wants to stay somewhere "nice" (even though we're still not spending much time in the room). I'm more likely to be swayed to a nicer hotel in that scenario than in a work-scenario.

The comment about times of low occupancy being good to renovate is probably true, but it still assumes that the business will improve after the renovations are done. If I owned/ran that hotel, I'd want solid information that the KI Center is going to expand before I sunk money into the hotel.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/WELCM_EXTR_05_E.jpg

what they need to do it tear down that hotel and build another one on that site as to accept the convention center expansion. they need to expand that convention center west, tearing out the street and coaches corner and have 2 hotels directly feeding the convention center. that is the plan that should be sought!!

I'm not sure I'd advocate tearing down the Holiday Inn downtown. It's only around 40 years old, and I think it's been renovated and/or expanded a couple times over the years. The mall aside, Green Bay doesn't need any more demolition downtown — unless clearly something better would takes its place and be signed-on-the-line ready to go with construction. Besides, Hitler would be furious!

The Holiday Inn needs some major work. I stayed there for about four nights in Jan. 2009 when there was some work being done on our house. It was really bad. I'm not prissy about hotels. Basic and functional serve me well, but when issues about the room and infrastructure actually prevent you from being comfortable, then something needs to be done. The building itself is okay, but it needs renovation badly.

It isn't a comment on whether they should or shouldn't renovate at this point. The fact of the matter is that if they don't renovate the hotel there will not be a hotel. Franchises have standards and right now that hotel is on a timeline to having to have those amenities met by a certain time or the owners of the hotel will lose their "H" if you will. That is why that hotel still has not gotten their new Holiday Inn logo.

As for the building itself, the hotel does need to be torn down as it is sitting on the water all wrong. the kitchen is on the water side as the banquet rooms are on the parking lot side. The guest rooms are facing north and south but nothing on the water side at all. Those are the types of renovations that cost way to much to perform rather than just demolition the whole thing and reuse the existing foundation.

As for the building itself, the hotel does need to be torn down as it is sitting on the water all wrong. the kitchen is on the water side as the banquet rooms are on the parking lot side. The guest rooms are facing north and south but nothing on the water side at all. Those are the types of renovations that cost way to much to perform rather than just demolition the whole thing and reuse the existing foundation.
Great idea. That hotel needs to be torn down. I would see an expansion of the convention center finally happening once that place is gone, as well as an HQ for Foxy Lady Cruises. Also a relocation of the Coaches Corner to Broadway could be possible.

Here's some pretty significant development news:

"Packer City" - land adjacent to the stadium

From WBAY (http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=11780823) Hopefully the videos stay there for a while.

Here are the articles:


Green Bay Packers in the Real Estate Business
By Jeff Alexander
The Green Bay Packers say they don't know when but acknowledge that land west of Lambeau Field will look dramatically different in the future.

For more than two years, the Packers have been in the real estate business. So far the team has purchased nearly 20 acres to the west and south of the stadium.

It's all tied to making extra revenue the team says it will need to compete in the years to come.

"We think it's very important, it's very important for the entire National Football League to continue to look at other sources of revenue," Packers vice president Jason Wied said.

While businesses like K-mart and Big Lots sit on land the Packers own, their leases will eventually come due.

Last month, Hardee's restaurant closed after its lease expired, saying it knew the Packers had other plans for the property.

"It's probably not something that happens within months, but we'd certainly like to see something happen in the very near future," Wied said.

Ashwaubenon Village President Mike Aubinger says he welcomes the economic development the Packers are planning, and expects a mixture of hotels, restaurants, shops and businesses, but he says village support will require one stipulation.

"We have to make sure that development is balanced with our residential areas and make sure they are protected, too,' Aubinger said. "Ashwaubenon is unique. We have 50-percent residential, 50-percent business and we have to make sure both needs are met."

The Packers say they agree maintaining the neighborhood feel around Lambeau Field is critical in any development they pursue.

They also say in order to keep competing with big market ball clubs, having their footprint on land around the stadium is essential.

"Because it has to. That just makes economic sense for it to grow that way," Wied said.

And Part II:


"Planning Packer City"
By Jeff Alexander

The Green Bay Packers say there are no concrete plans right now, but expansion around Lambeau Field is in its playbook.

During the past few years, the organization purchased almost 20 acres to the west and south of the stadium.

The Packers say eventually they will look into developing the land into a potential mixture of hotels, restaurants and shops.

"It's probably not something that happens within months, but we'd certainly like to see something happen in the very near future," Packers vice president Jason Wied said.

The Packers' development plans reflect a new era in professional football.

As it stands right now, all the revenue an NFL team makes on game day, from ticket sales to television rights, is shared throughout the league.

Other sources are not shared, which is why Patriot Place, a 90-acre shopping and entertainment complex developed by Patriots owner Bob Kraft right next to Gillette Stadium is paying huge dividends.

"These iconic sports franchises are revealing that what they have is more than just sports, and they're starting to make some money on that," St. Norbert College professor Kevin Quinn said.

Quinn is one of the country's leading sports economists. He says the Packers are well aware of the need to generate additional non-shared revenue, beyond the Lambeau Field Atrium, and he says they're in the position to do it.

"The Packers have something that no one else has right now," Quinn said, "Cash."

They also have what Quinn calls one of the best brands in all of professional sports.

He expects a lot of competition to be a part of the Packers development around the stadium.

"You're going to have restaurants and shops and all that, hotels, but some of it are just other kinds of businesses that just want to bask in the reflective glory that is the Packers, and they'll be willing to pay a little bit more to do it," he said.

"I think what they have in mind is a Packer city, if you will."

And as Quinn sees it, the more pro teams invest in expansion, the better for their communities.

"The more the Packers create a destination, the better it is for the economy here locally, the better our lives will be if we have a healthy Packer destination set-up."

I won't miss the ugly K-mart or Hardees buildings there. I always thought those were horrible eyesores to have right next to the stadium, almost embarrassing. I think it would be pretty cool if the Packers put in a "TND" development, something that would combine the shops with residential but in a more "new urbanist" kind of way. They could really do up the "tailgater heaven", let more of those "Packer party house" nuts get up close to the stadium. It would be fun to help plan this out.

Also, glad you all enjoyed the Hitler video. Hitler will be pissed if the Packers blow it too. I think he's already kind of pissed off that the Packers are taking in tax money and then turning around and buying up real estate....

Here's some pretty significant development news:

"Packer City" - land adjacent to the stadium

From WBAY (http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=11780823) Hopefully the videos stay there for a while.

Here are the articles:



And Part II:



I won't miss the ugly K-mart or Hardees buildings there. I always thought those were horrible eyesores to have right next to the stadium, almost embarrassing. I think it would be pretty cool if the Packers put in a "TND" development, something that would combine the shops with residential but in a more "new urbanist" kind of way. They could really do up the "tailgater heaven", let more of those "Packer party house" nuts get up close to the stadium. It would be fun to help plan this out.

Also, glad you all enjoyed the Hitler video. Hitler will be pissed if the Packers blow it too. I think he's already kind of pissed off that the Packers are taking in tax money and then turning around and buying up real estate....
^^
That's great news. I hope these plans become reality. I agree with everyone here, that the remaining buildings are eyesores. I used to work at the Big Lots store which currently operates out of the old Kohl's Supermarket at Lombardi Plaza. I hope those plans work out, or else we will be stuck with a bunch of abandoned buildings and brownfields, like the ones located downtown.

Jeff Royle was on The Fan this morning, promoting an event tomorrow night "bullfrogs' hot stove'..

I didn't catch the entire interview, but I swear I heard him say that tomorrow night they will be making an announcement about a new stadium downtown. Stay tuned, I guess...

Jeff Royle to talk about a potential new stadium, among other things, TONIGHT at the Bullfrogs' annual winter dinner.

www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20100107/GPG0206/1070508/1239/Bullfrogs--event-to-feature-Berken

It seems to me that there are just too many hotels in this market, if you look around, I notice quite a few empty parking lots. At some point business travel will pick up but now I know that some are just not staying in hotels like they would have a few years ago.

Room occupancy in the Green Bay hotel market is about 50%, down some from a year ago. I have no idea how that rate compares to other cities in Wisconsin or nationally.





http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/DonaldTrumpVinceMcMahonMakeWWEHisto.jpg

Passenger totals were up 5% last year at Appleton's airport but have dropped, if memory serves from a chart I saw last week, about 15% for the year at Green Bay's airport. That reverses a trend in recent years in which Austin Straubel had been pulling away from the Outagamie County airport in passenger loads. Above is a photo taken at Austin Straubel last summer when Donald Trump visited Green Bay to promote WWE wrestling. I never saw flight attendants like that in my life! Just spicing things up on a snowy winter day.

www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/air-travel-trends-at-area-airports

re: passenger totals from GB & Appleton..

I suspect some of that is due to Allegiant's move from GB to Appleton. They were given an "introductory" fee to go through GB, which expired in 2009, if memory serves. When that time came & the GB airport wanted to up the price, they moved. Also, during the downturn, Delta eliminated some flights out of GB - a direct flight to Atlanta, I believe.

I've heard that's coming back, along with some new routes - once the whole Delta/Northwest thing is hashed out.

Maybe I'd feel different if I lived in Appleton but it seems SO foolish to have 2 airports of similar size 30 miles apart. A couple years ago there was talk of consolidation, which probably would have been a good idea. There is a fair amount of duplication between the two - flights to the same destination a couple hours apart, etc. One airport would potentially allow them to bring in bigger aircraft & do it in one flight instead of 2.

I guess they did a significant upgrade to the Appleton airport a few years ago, so it (consolidation) is probably dead for the time-being..

Also, during the downturn, Delta eliminated some flights out of GB - a direct flight to Atlanta, I believe. I've heard that's coming back, along with some new routes - once the whole Delta/Northwest thing is hashed out

Great to hear some additional flights might be coming eventually to Austin Straubel. I think talk about merging the airports in Green Bay and Appleton or building a combined airport somewhere in the Kaukauna to Wrightstown area goes as far back as the 1950s. That would certainly make sense and probably mean better service. But it won't happen in the foreseeable future. Both airports just completed major and costly terminal and runway upgrades. And, of course, there's an intense rivalry between the two cities, even though in some respects we're sister cities.

Austin Straubel was hit hard by the recession, the Delta/Northwest merger and the departure of Allegiant Air, all of which happened around the same time. (I think Allegiant had pulled out of Madison for a similar reason.) Allegiant left and Continental left. Direct flights were dropped from here to Las Vegas, Phoenix, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Atlanta and, for a time, Marquette, MI. Northwest cut back though later restored flights. At the same time, Appleton picked up Allegiant, kept its Atlanta service and United Airlines added a daily Appleton-to-Denver flight. On the plus side for Green Bay, American Airlines serves GRB (and not Appleton), and Midwest Airlines has upgraded its service here. For 2008, the last year for which statistics are available, Austin Straubel had about 850,000 incoming and outgoing passengers and Appleton, 500,000. By comparison, Milwaukee had 8 million and Madison 1.5 million.

P.S. I forgot to mention that before the recession hit, American Airlines had daily service between Green Bay and Dallas. But that only lasted about a year.

^^
Judging by those numbers I suppose if one wanted to know what type of service a combined Green Bay/Appleton Airport would have you could look at Madison's ariport.

I think talk about merging the airports in Green Bay and Appleton or building a combined airport somewhere in the Kaukauna to Wrightstown area goes as far back as the 1950s. That would certainly make sense and probably mean better service. But it won't happen in the foreseeable future. Both airports just completed major and costly terminal and runway upgrades. And, of course, there's an intense rivalry between the two cities, even though in some respects we're sister cities.

We had a good discussion about building a regional airport back in October 2006. If newer people would like to peruse it, or if the veterans would like to relive it, you can search the site using the terms "Green Bay Appleton airport" and click on "Show Posts".

Northwest Arkansas (XNA) is a rare example of a region building a new airport to replace multiple smaller ones, but that's a different animal. None of the replaced airports were as big as GRB and ATW, and it is a booming region with headquarters for Wal Mart and Tyson Foods, among others. It serves about 1 million passengers per year.

The XNA website states that only three new commercial airports have been built in the United States over the past 25 years.

I would bet that by the time the cost savings and political climate would come together to make such a merger make sense in Northeast Wisconsin, we're going to be using something other than airplanes to fly around in. BUT -- this board got a new Bullfrogs stadium built, so maybe we can start planning Northeast Wisconsin International Airport (NEW)! :|

By the way, before discussion moves onto something else. . . . From the time Austin Straubel Field or Airport* opened in the late 1940s after World War II until about 1980, I believe only one airline served the airport. It was initially called Wisconsin Central Airlines, then North Central Airlines, and finally ended up as Republic Airlines before it was bought out by Northwest Airlines (now Delta). The airline was initially headquartered in Wisconsin but later moved to Minneapolis. Chicago was a central hub for North Central for many years, but in later years the airline reduced Chicago service and focused on Minneapolis and Detroit as its Midwest hubs. (That — along with deregulation of the airline industry — opened up the way for United and American to enter the Green Bay market, providing flights between here and Chicago.) Some images from the past.

* "International" was added to the name Austin Straubel much later when, for a brief time, Air Canada had direct flights here between Green Bay and Toronto.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/higgins_with_karl_brocken.jpg http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/northcentral_dc3_madison.jpg http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/northcentral.jpg http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/1523333.jpg http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/Scan10024JPG.jpg http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/goetscha/nc6601i.jpg