Green Bay Development News [Archive] - Page 4

Green Bay roots

August 10th, 2007, 11:35 PM

i know we don't talk about Airport developments but i thought this is an awesome new addition and shows that the airport is starting to grow. hopefully more like this will follow with the major airline. watch the paper to see which or maybe both cities are added to Green Bay's flight line.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

http://www.co.brown.wi.us/airport/announcements.htm

Aug. 1, 2007

ALLEGIANT AIR ANNOUNCES NEXT TWO DESTINATIONS: PHOENIX AND FORT LAUDERDALE

(Las Vegas, Nev.)-- Low-cost airline, Allegiant Air, LLC, a subsidiary of Allegiant Travel Company (Nasdaq: ALGT) today announced it will establish bases at two new world-class, leisure destinations: Phoenix-Mesa, Ariz. and Fort Lauderdale, Fla. However, the low-fare carrier has yet to reveal which cities will receive the new the nonstop, low-cost service. Could your city be next?

Allegiant plans to launch the new service to Phoenix-Mesa from 13 markets already served by the carrier beginning Oct. 25. On Nov. 14, Allegiant will begin nonstop flights to Fort Lauderdale from 12 markets, 11 of which already enjoy Allegiant’s unique brand of vacation value and convenience.

The first route will be announced and available for purchase Aug. 9 and all routes will be announced before the end of September. A clock on the company’s website will provide a countdown to each new city announcement and can be viewed at www.allegiantair.com.

“We’re extremely pleased to add both sunny South Florida and Arizona to our growing roster of world-class vacation destinations,” Maurice J. Gallagher, Jr., Allegiant Travel Company president and CEO, said. “These two new markets will give our customers even more opportunities to enjoy a convenient, low-cost and sunny vacation getaway.”

With breathtaking scenery, endless sun, unmatched resorts and miles of world-class golf courses, the Phoenix area offers an ideal getaway from the everyday. Not only is the area considered “The Golf Capital of the World,” but the “Resort Capital of the World” with numerous four and five-diamond resorts. These premier resort communities feature shopping, dining, spa, activities and luxury accommodations for the perfect getaway to Arizona’s unique Southwestern hospitality.

Fort Lauderdale offers the ultimate escape to sunny South Florida, with miles of blue waterways, soft golden sand and gentle ocean breezes. Located in the center of South Florida's Gold Coast, 40 miles from Palm Beach and 25 miles from Miami, Fort Lauderdale stretches from Deerfield Beach and Pompano Beach in the north to Hollywood and Hallandale Beach in the south. The area offers 300 miles of navigable inland waterways and 44,000 resident yachts, making it recognized as the “Yachting Capital of the World” and the “Venice of America.” From the Blue Wave beaches, to the yacht-filled waterways, to the exotic Everglades, every visit is a fresh taste of paradise.

The self-proclaimed “Official Airline for Sunshine” will base 130-seat, MD-80 series jet aircraft at Williams Gateway Airport and 150-seat aircraft at Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport. With the addition of these two new bases, the Las Vegas-based airline will service five world-class, leisure destinations, including McCarran International Airport (Las Vegas), Orlando Sanford International Airport and St. Petersburg-Clearwater International Airport.

Allegiant Air currently provides low-cost scheduled service to more than 50 cities across the U.S., with 42 routes to Las Vegas, 26 routes to Orlando and 14 routes to the Tampa Bay area. In addition to its scheduled service, the airline also operates charter service throughout the U.S., Mexico and Canada.

As a full-service travel company, Allegiant provides even greater savings to customers by offering complete, low-cost vacation packages. Allegiant will partner with premier hotels and resorts in both Fort Lauderdale and the greater Phoenix area. The company will provide low-cost car rental service through its partnership with Alamo Rent a Car.

Reservations may be made through the company’s website at www.allegiantair.com, the airline’s Reservations Center at 702-505-8888 or professional travel agents.

About the Company
Las Vegas based Allegiant Travel Company (NASDAQ: ALGT), is focused on linking travelers in small cities to world-class leisure destinations such as Las Vegas, Nev., Phoenix, Ariz., Fort Lauderdale, Fla., Orlando, Fla. and Tampa/St. Petersburg, Fla. Through its subsidiary, Allegiant Air, the Company operates a low-cost, high-efficiency, all-jet passenger airline offering air travel both on a stand-alone basis and bundled with hotel rooms, rental cars and other travel related services. ALGT/G

Geography Teacher

August 12th, 2007, 03:44 PM

That is intriguing news about Allegiant Air, but one has to wonder whether Green Bay will get new routes. I'm not sure that there are enough Green Bayans who list those places as final destinations to make those routes viable on a regular basis.

We've had direct flights to Atlanta and Dallas, but there are business connections (Georgia Pacific and Kimberly Clark, respectively) that help support those routes.

Guess we'll just wait and see.

Inside the Beltway

August 13th, 2007, 06:51 PM

I'm not sure that there are enough Green Bayans who list those places as final destinations to make those routes viable on a regular basis.

Think...snowbirds...

I found some average daily passenger statistics for GRB, not sure what year they are from (2004-ish?), but the top ten destinations were:

1. New York City (70 pax/day)
2. Orlando (69)
3. Washington, D.C. (62)
4. Detroit (61)
5. Minneapolis (60)
6. Las Vegas (56)
7. Phoenix (50)
8. Dallas (45)
9. Los Angeles (45)
10. Atlanta (45)

Miami was way down the list at 17 pax/day and Fort Lauderdale at 15.

The Vegas route appears to be doing very well, and I'm surprised Allegiant hasn't started a route from Green Bay to Orlando or Tampa yet. Based on the figures above, I'd guess that Phoenix might be it, but one of the Florida destinations seems more logical.

Also keep in mind that Allegiant doesn't fly 7 days a week, so it is feasible a 2-3 x per week frequency would do very well from Green Bay.

GBSurveyor

August 13th, 2007, 07:34 PM

I agree Beltway...Also thanks for the info.

I am also surprised Orlando is not a route. I know plenty of people with kids who fly direct from MKE to Flordia to avoid the layover and also save some $$. I flew midwest into Fort Laurdale a few years ago and it is a decent airport that is pretty convenient for s. flordia. It would be super to skip the connection and have a direct flight to Flordia.

What do you guys think of with the latest Midwest buyout proposal?

Danillo

August 15th, 2007, 07:36 PM

Taken today...

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/dem1.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/dem2.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/dem3.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/dem4.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/dem5.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/dem6.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/dem7.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/dem8.jpg

titletown

August 15th, 2007, 09:22 PM

Nice pictures Dan! I was at Coach's Corner last night and drove past this area. You could partially see the Bellin Building and Nicolet Bank lit up and from what I can see Washington Street looks promising! Now if they could only light up this city more...it is so dark everywhere you go. I had friends comment from other cities how poorly lit this city is on 41 and city streets.

Green Bay 4 Life

August 16th, 2007, 12:09 AM

Maybe if the City kept the bridges lit every night instead of just Friday and Saturday or Packer Night games it would help. What also would help is if Riverfront Lofts didn't look like the black hole coming over either Walnut Street bridge or the Ray N. They just recently added even more lights to the exterior of the Bellin Building which helps since it doesn't look like anyone leaves the lights on in their offices. I am also assuming that the Boardwalk, I mean City Deck will be lit up and help that cause a little, but more than likely will only be lit on Friday and Saturday nights and special events once the Council needs to cut money to make the budget work. There just seems to be such little civic pride here unlike lighting up in other communities. That may be why downtown is considered "dead" - because it is so dark in places.

On another note... Um, Astor Place. Come in Astor Place. R u even close, an update would be nice. I am sick everytime I hear Vetter talk about Astor like it was just proposed a week ago. Come into the now, it was proposed a long ass time ago and winter is just around the corner. Need to get in the ground soon or we may be looking at Spring of 2008 as a start date. Also, Site 4. What is the deal with that. The planning option for Vetter on that site has got to run out by now. Plus wasn't the RDA supposed to get 6 month updates from Vetter on the progress. Haven't heard one peep on that. I am not trying to bash Vetter, but he is on the hook right now, or is the City on the hook and just being played out. I have faith, but it has been broken so many times before. Just a bad day, I guess...

Lastly, why doesn't the City get good press ever? This whole Council fiasco with Zima is just another black eye. Are we children here? What is the big deal? Just freakin watch the damn video already. It just adds to the long list of Green Bay not acting like the 3rd largest City but more childish in a way. Oh well. April elections are just around the corner.

Lastly, I want the Grand Union built. Hope those contracts were signed for space. I still think that of all the buildings proposed, that is one fine ass looking structure and would send a strong message that quality does matter.

All for now, till my next rant.

titletown

August 16th, 2007, 03:25 AM

Lastly, why doesn't the City get good press ever? This whole Council fiasco with Zima is just another black eye. Are we children here?

I think Zima needs to get called to the "Principal's office"....here is some news on the old mall & river center.

New Developments for Washington Commons Mall

Aug 15, 2007 05:36 PM

By Sarah Thomsen

There are new developments on what to do with the abandoned Washington Commons mall in downtown Green Bay. Action 2 News learned the search is narrowed to two possible developers for the property.

"I will say that we have two people that are very interested and have been in here a number of times," Mayor Jim Schmitt said.

Mayor Schmitt told Action 2 News he's in talks with two developers to look at completely revamping the Washington Commons property. He said the city council should see a development proposal in a few months.

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=6938131

Danillo

August 16th, 2007, 03:45 PM

Astor Place. Come in Astor Place. R u even close, an update would be nice. I am sick everytime I hear Vetter talk about Astor like it was just proposed a week ago. Come into the now, it was proposed a long ass time ago and winter is just around the corner. Need to get in the ground soon or we may be looking at Spring of 2008 as a start date.

Heck, if someone promised me right now that construction would begin in spring, I'd take it. I still think something is going to get done on that site - something substancial - but if they can't sell the units, then it won't be what we've been looking at for the past couple years. The waiting is getting old though. Hopefully construction at River Center will help things along.

Also, Site 4. What is the deal with that. The planning option for Vetter on that site has got to run out by now...

I was thinking about this the other day myself, it seems the planning option must have run out by now. I think River Center, Astor Place, Grand Union, the City Deck, and the mall site are all higher priorities now. I'm not sure there's enough demand for that site yet, considering you don't want to split residential demand between Astor Place and site 4, and you don't want to split office demand between Grand Union and site 4. So, if AP, GU, and the other projects can move forward, I think (hope) the environment will be more suitable for site 4. Really, if you're a business looking to build a HQ or a developer looking to build something on the scale of what we want on that site, the investment becomes a whole lot more attractive with at least some of these other projects completed.

Lastly, why doesn't the City get good press ever? This whole Council fiasco with Zima is just another black eye. Are we children here? What is the big deal? Just freakin watch the damn video already. It just adds to the long list of Green Bay not acting like the 3rd largest City but more childish in a way.

I actually think the mayor looks just as silly in all of this as Zima, but the whole thing is just rediculous for all parties involved. But have you seen how the Milwaukee city council functions? Maybe the problem is that they are starting to act like bigger-city council!

New Developments for Washington Commons Mall...

Thanks for posting that. One hopes that if there are two reasonably good proposals, that we'll (the general public) will get a chance to see them and commment on them. Hopefully they are good, and truly urban, proposals. I worry about this site...

Also, the following was in a sidebar to the WBAY article. Nothing too new, just some timeline updates (assuming things stick to the timeline).

Another major downtown project is making progress.

The project manager says crews are on schedule to finish demolishing the Younkers Department Store by mid-October to make way for the new River Center.

The developer says construction will begin next month on a 64-unit loft apartment complex on the adjoining property.

Work on retail space, parking, and Green Bay Children's Museum will begin in late fall.

hckystr42

August 16th, 2007, 10:06 PM

sr22ger

August 16th, 2007, 10:27 PM

Also just wondering, but I am as excited as any other guy to see all of this development occuring, but are we actually hurting ourselves by trying to do this all at once. like danillo said are these projects interfering with each other since there is a limited amount of businesses and homeowners interested in living and working downtown.

I honestly think working and living in an urban environment has to appeal to almost everyone (well except my wife, but she doesn't count anyways :) ) and really has unlimited potential.

I'm curious to read the full article (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070816/GPG03/70816128/1247), any advertisement is good advertisement imo. Showing that people actually do live and work downtown is a great promotion tool for the existing slate of projects.

Danillo

August 16th, 2007, 11:28 PM

With regard to the 64 Unit apartment complex and the childrens museum and parking... it was mentioned earlier that Vetter didnt even have a final plan for the younkers site yet and was passing it along to another architect in milwaukee. since they are talking about building all of that stuff already is it safe to assume that this other architect has finished some sort of design for RC.

Nope. I don't think they have a finished design at all for most of it. They have a design that was done by Stonehouse for the rental lofts portion. That's the first part they're doing, and the part on the north end where they've been doing the demo first. The rest of it is the part being designed by HGA. They were just getting started with the project a couple of weeks ago, so I can't imagine they'd be done. I think they have a pretty good idea what the mix of uses will be, and considering the part of the structure they are keeping, the floorplates are probably dictated to them to a certain extent. So hopefully they'll get stated with that this year, I'd imagine they'd want to considering time is money.

Also just wondering, but I am as excited as any other guy to see all of this development occuring, but are we actually hurting ourselves by trying to do this all at once. like danillo said are these projects interfering with each other since there is a limited amount of businesses and homeowners interested in living and working downtown.

I think this depends on what they want to do with the mall site. The price-points for the residentail at Astor Place and River Center don't really overlap, so there's not too much competition. The Grand Union is a bit of a special opportunity because of the ownership, and plus almost all of the other office space of like quality downtown has been filled, so I'd guess that's probably in pretty good shape. I don't know what the commercial plans are for River Center, if it's a hotel than that's a different market as well, and if it's office then it will likely be more expensive than Grand Union, but have larger floor plates which will appeal to different buyers (though probably sell after Grand Union anyway...I hope).

The mall is a huge site though, and depending on what they do with it may or may not compete. Part of it may be expansion for the KI center (into part of JC Penny's), which would be fine. Part of it will probably (hopefully) be green space (I'm guessing where Flatley Court intersects with Adams and Penny's) which would make everything nearby more desireable. My great fear is that a lot of it will be some sort of hokey, themed entertainment complex or something. While such a use may be a failure in 10 years, it wouldn't compete with other projects either. I know they Mayor wants to see some name retail there as well, which would also not compete (although I question whether the types of brands he has mentioned - Crate and Barrel types - would see Green Bay as fitting in with their target demographics, but that's a whole 'nother issue).

I'm pretty sure that planning is aware of the competing uses idea, so I'm not really worried about everything that's on the table now being a problem. Adding in site 4 would almost certainly create some overlap, but that fact is what's keeping it from being developed right now in the first place. But if you think about it, if these other projects can be successful (which is a ton of work and by no means certain) site 4 will probably take care of itself (relatively speaking) as it will be the lone remaining riverfront/City Deck site in what would by then be a dramatically changed downtown.

Geography Teacher

August 17th, 2007, 03:34 PM

From this morning's Press-Gazette:

F1rst look: Living in a pad by the river

Greg Gofford enjoys the convenience of living in downtown Green Bay.

"I love it. I just have to walk out my door (to find something to do)," said Gofford, 25, a mechanical engineer with Wisconsin Public Service Corp.

Gofford owns a two-bedroom condominium at Riverside Place, 118 S. Washington St. In a story in Sunday's Green Bay Press-Gazette, he tells business reporter Richard Ryman that although he doesn't have a river view, the Fox River Trail is only yards away. He walks or bikes to work most days and enjoys the downtown nightlife.

"My buddies from Milwaukee and Chicago … can't afford anything like this," he said.

People — like Gofford — who live along the Fox River in downtown Green Bay say it's a wonderful environment: affordable, urban, exciting and peaceful.

They're looking forward to having more than 200 new neighbors within the next two years as new residential properties are developed.

And, they hope, some additional amenities to make living there easier.

Watch for this story in print and online Sunday.

MilwaukeeMark

August 17th, 2007, 05:37 PM

Hey, whatever happened to that bridge replacement you were all pissed about a few months back?

Danillo

August 17th, 2007, 05:57 PM

MilwaukeeMark

August 17th, 2007, 08:00 PM

^^ To be clear, only some of us disliked the new bridge, I have liked it all along. That said, if you go back one page, GBSurveyor posted some nice pics. The bridge is coming along well, and should be open in October.

Oh wow, it's WAY farther along than I thought. I thought it was still in the planning stage! And for the record, I like the new bridge quite a bit. It's a fantastic addition to the area. Very well designed... I can't wait to see what true evening photographs look like compared to the renderings.

MilwaukeeMark

August 17th, 2007, 08:02 PM

http://www.danillo.com/images/8-6-6.jpg

What are they doing with the beige building behind the deconstruction? Looks to be prime real estate. If it's already been converted to something other than it's original use, they absolutely HAVE to do something to the facade.. it's terrible.

Fillmore

August 17th, 2007, 08:15 PM

Seems fittingly symbolic that the namesake for Astor Place, the old real estate tycoon, Lady Astor passed away last week. I hate to remind everyone, but I did receive my healthy deposit back some time ago. I really believe AP is a "hype" development designed to peak interest and gauge the market--a worm on a hook if you will. Sadly, Green Bay has seen a myriad of these projects before. To validate this, the AP website links are never updated and the prices have not been viewable for a while. A true website would have constant updates, news, etc... I am afraid AP will forever live in the "Proposed" development category in dtGB development.

Danillo

August 17th, 2007, 09:40 PM

What are they doing with the beige building behind the deconstruction? Looks to be prime real estate. If it's already been converted to something other than it's original use, they absolutely HAVE to do something to the facade.. it's terrible.

That whole building (the white part being demoed and the beige part) is the old Prange's (then Younker's) department store. It is now owned by Vetter-Denk. Some of it is being demoed totally, and some of it (the closest three bays of the white part and the beige part) is being stripped pretty much down to the frame. A new rebuilt development, called River Center, will be home to rental lofts, raw loft condos, retail, and a new Children's Museum. Stonehouse out of Madison is the architect for the rental lofts portion, and my understanding is that HGA in Milwaukee will be the architect for the rest.

Seems fittingly symbolic that the namesake for Astor Place, the old real estate tycoon, Lady Astor passed away last week. I hate to remind everyone, but I did receive my healthy deposit back some time ago. I really believe AP is a "hype" development designed to peak interest and gauge the market--a worm on a hook if you will. Sadly, Green Bay has seen a myriad of these projects before. To validate this, the AP website links are never updated and the prices have not been viewable for a while. A true website would have constant updates, news, etc... I am afraid AP will forever live in the "Proposed" development category in dtGB development.

Were you contacted to convert your reservation into a purchase? This seems quite odd, the story has been that they were seeking to convert reservations into committments to purchase as the beginning of constuction (supposedly) move closer.

At any rate, it's not as though Vetter can just walk away from the site for free. He's signed a developers agreement for the site, the city has gone ahead and straightened Washinton and moved the utilities. Vetter's on the hook for all that to the tune of something like $500,000 or a million. I don't think that's an insignificant sum for a firm like Vetter-Denk.

That leaves three options as I see it. 1) Astor Place gets built in a form reasonably similar to what we've seen. 2) The development agreement has a project value floor on it, but does not require Astor Place as we've seen it to be built, so a smaller project could go there. 3) River Center is structured in such a way that Vetter-Denk can cover their obligation to the Astor Place site, leaving Green Bay with River Center and a cleaned Flatley Park site.

I really don't think #3 is what's going on here (though I acknowledge that it is one of the possibilities), so that means that Vetter has to build there if he doesn't want to take a hit on that (not to mention the cost of the work they have done on the project to this point). How all this, plus what Vetter has been saying, fits in with your experience, I have no idea.

Bellin Building

August 18th, 2007, 12:44 AM

Well thought I'd post a short update on the Bellin Building. All of the windows except for Print King are now installed. A few pieces of glass are missing yet but that will be in next week.

What do you guys think about the sconces between the pillars that went in on the sidewalk level this week? It does brighten the corner. There will also be sidewalk floods going in on 8 spots ultimately. Also looking at a "sidewalk projector" on Washington similar to in the lobby of theatres.

The stairwell is in and installed and next week they will begin the large interior glass work. Also, the large spiral HVAC ducts started going in this week.

I have a rendering of the area between Imaginasium and our building -- but cannot figure out how to post it here. We also picked out the granite with gold fleck tile that will go in front of the elevators and the metal tile flooring for the lobby. The restaurant lounge will have recut terazzo and the coffee shop will have a combination of hardwood and terazzo.

The next few weeks the final details will all come together -- hopefully turned over to tenants by mid September (3-4 weeks away).

Steve at the Bellin Building

hckystr42

August 18th, 2007, 07:04 AM

Steve at the Bellin-

I know you said you hope to turn it over to the tenants by mid September, but do you have any idea when the restaurant is going to open. Did the owner give you and estimated date?

Puant

August 18th, 2007, 03:57 PM

A few of my comments. I haven't posted in a while, you guys used up a whole page without me! Good job

Bellin Building
The sconces are great, I noticed them as soon as they went up. I haven't seen them lit up at night yet but they look great even in the day. You know, I have to say, as exciting as all of the new buildings might be, I'm equally--if not more--excited to see an old historic building like the Bellin get renovated so nicely. It's great to see you are doing everytihng the right way, as far as I can tell. You mentioned some more work near Print King that has to be done yet. That would be my only critique--you are doing everything right and blending into the historic styling, but, -the big plastic sign that Print King has on the building doesn't quite fit in...I'm not sure if our how you approach your tenant...are you going to ask them to get a sign that matches the style you're shooting for? If the sign stays, it's not a big deal.... I'm probably the only one who even thought about it.
Also..Are you still planning for the awnings on the east side of the building too? I think I had read that you were, can't wait to see them.
IN regards to something else you mentioned about the render...I assume you're going to make a little courtyard between your building and imaginasium? That's perfect! What a totally cool way to set the site off at the street level. I'd love to see that render. YOu can post your photo to a free online photo service like Photobucket.com, then you can get a link that allows you to post a photo in here. I had the same problem at first, now I've figured it out.

DePere bridge
What can I say? I'm not a fan of the new bridge. It seems too big and monolithic. I don't think it will ever be regarded as the "symbol" of DePere. But, I understand it's just a matter of personal opinion. Maybe I'll change my mind once I drive over it. If I can bike or walk over it without being scared #$itless by cars racing by too close & quickly, then I'll like it better.

Mall site
Happy to hear something's being discussed on the mall site, but it's all just so vague and it sounds to me to be more of the city begging developers to develop and less developers anxious to do something. Is this your same gut feeling?

Misc
Thanks for the comments on the 'annals'. I've added some new photo slideshows along the side bar that turned out nice, and I've got some new articles & stuff in the works that I'm pretty excited about finishing up and posting.

Geography Teacher

August 19th, 2007, 03:47 PM

Here's the whole P-G article on living in downtown Green Bay:

Riverfront living helping to revitalize downtown

New developments offer alternatives to the suburbs

By Richard Ryman
rryman@greenbaypressgazette.com

Anne Gollnick watches Great Lake freighters as they glide past her living room. Greg Goffard enjoys the nightlife. Phyllis Last enjoys the feeling of security.

They are a few of the more than 200 people living along the Fox River in downtown Green Bay, about half the number that will be there when the River Center and Astor Place projects are completed within the next two years.

In a community where the majority of the population long ago moved away from the heart of the city to houses with lawns and apartments in the suburbs, these folks are moving back.

As they will be quick to tell you, downtown is missing some of the amenities that would make living there easier — no drug store or dry cleaners, for example — but they are hopeful those will follow the increased population. In the meantime, they tout the benefits already there.

"I love it. I just have to walk out my door (to find something to do)," said Greg Goffard, 25, a mechanical engineer with Wisconsin Public Service Corp.

Goffard owns a two-bedroom condominium at Riverside Place on South Washington Street. He doesn't have a river view, but the Fox River Trail is only yards away. He walks or bikes to work most days and enjoys the downtown nightlife.

"My buddies from Milwaukee and Chicago … can't afford anything like this," he said.

Young professionals seeking an urban lifestyle are increasingly filling the downtown spaces, but empty-nesters, retired and not, also are present.

"We wanted to have a place where we could button it up and go away for a longer period of time," said Richard Gollnick, who owns a condominium in Riverfront Lofts.

Phyllis Last, 74, said her children wouldn't think of her living anywhere but River's Edge Apartments on the west side of the Fox.

"I feel so safe and secure here. I know it's peace of mind for the kids," she said.

Affordable housing

Green Bay planners have pushed to have affordable as well as high-cost housing downtown. Affordability is a key element to the River Center project. The 64 apartments being developed by Stone House Development of Madison are being subsidized by Wisconsin Housing and Economic Development Authority tax credits, which require lower-cost housing.

"You need options. You have waiters and waitresses who'd love to live downtown," said Jessy Geurts, manager and resident at River's Edge Apartments.

Geurts said River's Edge has seen a change in its population from being primarily 65-plus to a having strong mixture of young professionals.

Marcelo Cruz, 49, associate professor of urban and regional studies at the University of Wisconsin-Green Bay, who's lived at River's Edge for 13 years, seconded the importance of an income-diverse population downtown.

"To have housing so teachers and policemen and firemen can live along with the upper scale is very important," Cruz said.

Though conventional Green Bay residents might spurn it, there is increasing demand for urban living.

"I think it's been a wonderful experience," said Anne Gollnick. "We walk to the Meyer Theatre, we walk to go out to eat. We walk to the farmers market and the Taste on Broadway. I walk to the Y every day to work out. You are right down here where everything is happening. It's just fun."

Mayor Jim Schmitt and other community leaders have talked about the need to attract "the creative class" to Green Bay.

Not only will that help the local economy, it will help downtown, where many of them would like to live.

"Having people live down here and making downtown a 24-hour-a-day environment is a key to a successful downtown," said Rob Strong, city planning director.

Increasing demand

Richard Gollnick, who lived on 9½ acres in Suamico for the past 25 years, said he can understand that some might find urban living strange, but "there are enough new people coming to Green Bay who find this a normal way of life."

Cruz said downtown Green Bay offers the area's only "sense of urbanity."

Ben Geisler, president and technical director of Frozen Codebase, a software development company in the Larsen Co. building on Broadway, said many of his workers, recruited from cities such as San Francisco and Seattle, are used to using mass transit or walking. They want to be close to where they work and can't understand why they have to drive to buy essentials or go to movies.

"We have three people who live down here now and three who are considering it," Geisler said. "I live in Howard and have a fenced yard with kids, but if I was single, I'd probably want to live down here."

Geurts said the population of River's Edge has gone from primarily 65-plus to a mix with a lot of young professionals.

Cruz said he was one of the younger residents when he moved in 13 years ago. He was in his mid-30s. "Now I'm one of the older kids on the block," he said.

Phyllis Last is one of the 65-plusers who's still at River's Edge. She said residents, young and old, get along well.

"It's like it used to be before everybody got too busy to be a neighbor," she said.

Last said her apartment, which faces the Fox River, feels more like a house. Her grandchildren — "I had a bunch of kids, so I have a bunch of grandkids — can play on the lawn outside her door, and when she needs to regroup, she can take in the view.

"Sometimes, when everything looks like I can't get it done, I will sit on my patio for five minutes and watch the river flow. Then I'll come back in and do everything," she said.

Across the river, Goffard seeks less sedentary recharging of his batteries. He and his friends like the bars and restaurants on Washington and Walnut streets, and he likes that his money isn't going to rent.

"What excites me the most, if it goes up, would be Astor Place. It would help my property value," he said. "We took a risk because none of these projects had started, yet. Hopefully, the risk pays off five years down the road."

Doing the math

Goffard was raised on a farm west of De Pere, and can return there anytime he feels the need to "yell as loud as I want to," but decided he was doing a lot of unnecessary driving.

"I'd find myself driving everywhere, and I said, 'wait a minute!' Now I ride my bike or walk to work unless I'm going to need my car," he said. "I'm an engineer. I'm putting a calculator to it."

The Gollnicks, who also have an urban house in Lucca, Italy, said they were encouraged when Green Bay adopted a development plan in 2004.

"When the Council adopted a comprehensive plan, I felt this downtown revitalization has a chance," he said.

Gollnick is hopeful, as are the others, that more residents downtown will mean more services.

"That will probably be the next phase. Those other services will crop up when it looks like somebody will survive doing it," he said. "We understand, this is going to take time."

Cruz said the downtown area lost a neighborhood supermarket and a drug store since he moved to town.

"I still have to go to the suburbs to do my major shopping," he said. "I think the challenge is to create a balance. We have to have certain conveniences the people in the suburbs have. We need toilet paper and cleansing products. We need a video store.

"If we need to continue to go out to the suburbs for our major shopping, it kind of defeats the whole purpose," he said.

Ray Hutchison, professor of urban and regional studies at University of Wisconsin-Green Bay, said the downtown needs "a general population that will make use of downtown for more than just bars."

City officials believe The CityDeck boardwalk, which begins construction next year, will draw others downtown. They see it as a site for farmers' markets, celebrations and just as individual access to the river.

Hutchison said more people downtown — eyes on the street — also should allay fears non-downtown residents might have about safety.

"Fifteen years ago, you would not have felt comfortable walking in downtown Chicago. Now there is a constant flow (of people)," he said.

Cruz said better planning would increase foot traffic. He would like to see fewer mall-like establishments that allow people to go inside and stay there.

"You house everything inside and you create a ghost town appearance, which is a very odd feeling in the center of an urban area that is the third-largest in the state," he said.

Like Goffard and others who've committed to downtown, Cruz is optimistic its urbanity will improve.

"That's why I'm still living here, and that's why I'm still involved with On Broadway," Cruz said.

Danillo

August 20th, 2007, 11:57 PM

Steve, I don't think I could possibly be more excited about what's going on at the Bellin Building.

:master:

Also looking at a "sidewalk projector" on Washington similar to in the lobby of theatres.

I'm not sure I quite visualize what you mean. The picture I have in my head of what this would be... I wonder if it would fit with the historic character of the building. Below is a picture I got from Puant's site, showing awnings that were once there. Maybe what you're thinking of would be great, I'm just having trouble picturing how it would work, if it would contrast with the character of the building as I'm aware of it.

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/bellinAwnings.jpg

Finally, Jeff Mirkes sent along some photos of progress on the building for me to share with everyone. Enjoy:

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/bellin0.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/bellin1.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/bellin2.jpg

Puant

August 25th, 2007, 07:29 PM

Bird's Eye images of the city
You guys should definitely check these images out (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2007/08/birds-eye-images-of-green-bay-area.html). Click the link to the site, and be sure to look the riverfront area & other parts of Green Bay & Appleton. Be ready to waste a lot of time on the computer with this!

P.S. I zoomed around the state with this, and it appears that so far only Green Bay, Appleton and Milwaukee have these sorts of images online.

Bartles53

August 29th, 2007, 07:26 PM

FYI the price list is back up on the Astor Place website. Every unit on the first 3 floors looks to be spoken for but after that it gets pretty ugly. I must say I don't envy Vetter having to sell that many units in this market.

Danillo

August 29th, 2007, 08:15 PM

^^ Yuck. I think what that says is that A) people who want cheaper units (and are more likely to be first-time home buyers) are in on this, B) People who would look at a unit to retire to but need to sell their house first are out as home in that price range aren't selling at all around here, and C) People looking to buy units as an investment for group B are out.

That's not a very promising picture. I wonder what it means for the project, can't be good news.

gbgoose

August 29th, 2007, 09:39 PM

Floors 3-6 look good (6th floor over 50% sold), and floors 7-10 have a couple condos at least pending...after that - ouch.
I can picture this structure getting scaled down to perhaps 12 stories, max.

It's amazing to see the progress on the Younkers building. Hopefully someone can update me on when the actual construction will start on RC as I had heard the Younkers structure won't be down until October.

Danillo

August 29th, 2007, 10:53 PM

^^ I think a 10 to 12 floor Astor Place is a distinct possibility. It has to be of a certain size to bring the TIF contibution that I believe it is obligated to, but chopping off 5-7 floors may make it a much more practical project (though you can't just chop off the floors that make up the highest end of sales-value and expect everything to be okay). As much as I'd love to see a 17-story building, none has been built here ever (in how many attempts now?). If you had told me 5 years ago that there'd be a 10 story building there, I'd have jumped for joy.

That said, until someone who actually knows something tells me that the size has been reduced, I'll plan on it being built as presented, and I'll be excited about the prospect of that. In the end we'll see what shakes out.

As for construction on River Center, according to that WBAY story that was posted on the last page:

The developer says construction will begin next month [September] on a 64-unit loft apartment complex on the adjoining property.

Work on retail space, parking, and Green Bay Children's Museum will begin in late fall.

Fillmore

August 30th, 2007, 01:25 AM

Sorry guys, it's not happening at all. Worm on a hook.

Puant

August 30th, 2007, 01:48 AM

^^ Sorry Fillmore but I don't think this was simply a "worm on a hook" or a farce of any kind. The RiverfrontLoft condos were built and sold in a snap. That was the "testing of the waters" so to speak, and the water felt good so that gave the developer the guts to propose soemthing much bigger, that led to the Astor thing.

At this point I think we just wait. The site is still currently a mess, there's no boardwalk, and still other stuff developing nearby. Give the conditions some time to improve and who knows? maybe more people will be able/more interested to buy a condo. ON a related note, I wonder how those "twin condo towers" in Ashwaubenon are selling...Does anyone know?

GBSurveyor

August 30th, 2007, 04:19 AM

^^ ^^ ^^ Take a ride through Thornberry Creek, there sure are a ton of for sale signs. I don't think the twin towers have much more to offer then any proposed tower in the area.

I think that I tend to agree with you Puant. The city knows that the market is not so favorable that is why there is not a huge outcry from the council. I am personally surprised as hell as the work on the Prange's building is happening, which I am very glad that this is the case. The Astor site is a perfect staging area for the demo/construction so what would be the point to rush construction of Astor? I think that something will get built there, if it happens this fall then great, if not I guess we will continue to wait. With potental plans for the mall site set to be made public this fall and the "brisk" sale of condo units at the Grand Union, we don't want to overdo any construction in downtown Green Bay...:lol:

btw has anyone seen any type of plans for the mall site? I thought that I read that Pine St. was to be extended through the Bay Lake City Center building to connect to Washington St.

Fillmore

August 30th, 2007, 04:07 PM

No apology needed, Puant, it's just business. I believe the lofts sold because of the size of the project, which was geared more toward the GB market. And how many of these units are investment properties purchased by businesses to temporarily house clients? I don't believe every unit houses a permanent resident. A "fancy" taller (possible) building like AP may attract other businesses (my worm analogy), but let's face it, the market can not support it. I believe this theory is holding true with the Prestige Tower project as well--how many units have they sold? One? If there was truly enough interest in AP, construction would have happened much sooner, as projected, and sales would be brisk. Instead the AP website is flooded with "pending" orders. This term, "pending" tells other people that perhaps they could buy this unit, since it isn't technically sold yet and may peak interest. There aren't enough people in GB willing to pay that much, and let's face it, Vetter is asking a lot for these units, to start the project. I don't doubt Vetter may build something on the site, but it won't be the AP we have been waiting for.

Puant

August 31st, 2007, 01:04 AM

... I believe the lofts sold because of the size of the project, which was geared more toward the GB market..... There aren't enough people in GB willing to pay that much, and let's face it, Vetter is asking a lot for these units, to start the project..

It's not about the market not being here. The market's here. Rather, it's that the bad decisions made in the central city over the last 50 years turned the downtown area into a dump. Nobody chooses to live in a sea of asphalt parking lots and the cluster#!* that the downtown became over the last 50 years. I am becoming more and more convinced of this (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2007/08/choices-for-real-estate-market.html).

Before I moved here, I had the perception that this whole city was just a simple, depressed blue-collar town. I was wrong. THere is a lot more to this town than what I thought, including many, many wealthy people, and many of whom have fabulous homes--it's just that most of them are scattered in the far-flung fringes of town. There's a demographic shift taking place around the country, where even the affluent people are moving back into the central city. As usual, Green Bay is slow to catch on to this trend, but it will happen--especially once the crap downtown is cleaned up and made desireable again.

Fillmore

August 31st, 2007, 01:41 AM

No argument here, Puant. Lord knows you have more knowledge than anyone on this subject. Yes, there are people with "fabulous" homes, but fabulous by whose standards? I have seen some homes here in Seattle and D.C. where I used to live that would make you want to puke. And yes, the city "leaders" have made some horrible decisions in the past, and from what I read, Guy Zima still has an influence there--pathetic. That guy was insulting every change the city ever wanted to make when I resided there, and, sadly, too many people listen to morons like him and bring the city back to the dark ages. Guys like him don't make it in larger markets because no one pays attention to them. Anyway, if Wisconsin's motto is "forward," I guess Green Bay's should be "forward, kinda, if we get enough people to believe." I do believe, but am also realistic.

gbbear2117

September 1st, 2007, 11:16 PM

hi guys -
some pictures i took of the younkers demolition, just on a disposable
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/bear2117/IMG_0021.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/bear2117/IMG_0018.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/bear2117/IMG_0019.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/bear2117/IMG_0020.jpg

gbbear2117

September 1st, 2007, 11:17 PM

edited

gbmphillips

September 3rd, 2007, 01:03 AM

I still have my doubts Vetters will every get both of the mayors shrines done and as for Zima he is doing what the people elect him to do represent them, and the mayor needs to learn to put personal grudges aside and let this one go because he is making a mountain out of a molehill.

Danillo

September 4th, 2007, 07:16 PM

gbbear, thanks for the photos!

gbm, I think at this point we all have doubts about Astor Place, we shall see. As for the Mayor versus Zima issues, I'd say they've each made plenty of mountains out of molehills regarding one another -- I don't see that changing any time soon.

GBFAN

September 5th, 2007, 03:37 AM

I have no idea if this place will be build or not! It interest me that if not the website is now updated and claiming a fall 2007 start date.

http://astorplacecondos.com/pdf/faq.pdf

GBSurveyor

September 5th, 2007, 04:51 AM

I have also noticed that the website lists a few changes- for one, it now notes that sales and design center has been moved on-site (looks to me like the construction job shack), there are updated photo's dated August 18 of the riverfront construction (here) (http://astorplacecondos.com/pdf/waterfront-demo-sm.pdf)
and under the retail/commercial portion there is now a breakdown of floor space.

Green Bay 4 Life

September 5th, 2007, 02:32 PM

Fron today's GBPG...

Downtown Schauer & Schumacher building to get new tenant

GREEN BAY - The old Schauer & Schumacher building at Adams and Walnut streets appears to be getting a new tenant.

John Solberg and Brendon Vicenzi plan to open a coffeehouse-cafe-bar at the location, which has been vacant for about seven years.

The pair filed a business plan with the Green Bay City Council's Protection & Welfare Committee and then argued their case Tuesday night before the City Council.

At issue was whether to grant the business a liquor license in an area that has a council-imposed license moratorium because of the proliferation of downtown taverns. The council voted 7-4 (with one member absent) to approve the license.

Solberg will own the business and Vicenzi will operate it. To be named "Vicenzi's," the business will offer coffee and pastries in the mornings, sandwiches and a soup and salad bar for lunch, and a place to enjoy a martini and music in the evenings, Solberg said.

He couldn't predict when the business would open but said it would likely happen within the next several months.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070905/GPG0101/709050683/1247

Bartles53

September 5th, 2007, 07:49 PM

^^ If anyone wants to bump into Puant on evenings/weekends, I have a strong suspicion I know where you'll be able to find him. That place sounds pretty cool. Green Bay could use a classy, laid back establishment downtown.

The new drawing of Astor Place on the front page of the website is really cool. I really can't wait for that building to be lit up. On the "Vision" section of the website they mention the plans for a "whole foods grocery". Whole foods is not in caps but I've never heard of "whole foods" as a generic term for an organic grocery. Could that be a slip? I have my doubts that Whole Foods would set up shop in downtown Green Bay but you never know. Personally I'm not much of a fan of that place--I'd prefer either a local grocer take the reigns (an upscale Austins) or the Trader Joe's idea that was floated on this board by one of the fellow posters.

Anyway, they've polished up the website. Looks like there might be a condo push/media blitz in the near future. My hopes are rising...

Danillo

September 5th, 2007, 10:26 PM

Does anyone else think that 100 Main Street would be a better name for the building than Astor Place?

Anyway, I can't imagine that Whole Foods would see Green Bay as a good market. I don't know what criteria they look into, and maybe they feel that if Astor Place can go ahead as designed, that it would be sort of a litmus test for whether GB could support one. But I really doubt the demographics of GB are in line with what Whole Foods looks for. In any case, I'd prefer something that's either less expesive and/or more farmers market like (though the markets aspects of the Milwaukee Public Markets hasn't gone so well, so I wonder if that would fly here).

I've been waiting for the "marketing blitz" for some time now. It seems clear that they haven't given up the ship in terms of their marketing, but it hasn't been all that prominant either.

I really hope the S & S proposal comes through. That would be a huge bonus, and hopefully these fellows know how to run such a business. It will be a great asset for the area.

Green Bay 4 Life

September 5th, 2007, 11:19 PM

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/phatty_013/AstorPlace_NightView.jpg

I too like the name 100 Main versus Astor Place. It may be somewhat confusing with the Astor Historic Neighborhood. I know Astor was a big shot and part of our history, but too many things names Astor may be potentially confusing. Hey I live in Astor. Where?:nuts:

hckystr42

September 5th, 2007, 11:26 PM

I too agree with Danillo- So many times when discussing downtown development I accidentally say Astor Park instead of Astor Place.

Also did anyone else notice in Sunday's paper an ad for The Grand Union. That article on WBAY .com made it sound like GU was almost full, but they still have 4 floors left. My question is since 5 of the 9 are now full is that enough to start construction this fall?

Danillo

September 6th, 2007, 12:12 AM

^^ Probably not. When you think about it, there are only 7 floors to sell, as the first two are lobby/banquet type uses. So that is only 3/7th of the building sold (I don't know what % of value that turns out to be). Still, if three of the seven are spoken for (assuming that reservations turn to sales, but we all know what happens when you assume) already, that's pretty good. I'd guess that if one more goes, particularly if it's the 8th floor, that may be enough value sold to proceed. I'd be shocked if 2 more wasn't enought to go ahead.

Puant

September 6th, 2007, 01:59 AM

S&S building
You're right, Bartles, I'm anxious for this to happen. The other day I saw a rendering of the place on a poster sitting on a tripod in the storefront windows of this building. It looked nice!

Also the other day I was in front of the S&S building and a couple of guys in a spotless Audi A8 stopped and rolled down the window to ask me where the nearest Starbucks was. I sort of chuckled. I would have loved to have pointed them to a classy local establishment like this will hopefully turn out to be.

Astor Place
I like the name, it has a little more of an upscale flavor than 100 Main. I'm just glad to see they havent' given up on it yet. I like that new evening render. As for the grocery store--I don't know what would work here. I'd like to see some good local place, I'm still sad that A'Bravo pulled out and located way out in Ledgeview or wherever instead of here.

That's all for now. Sorry I haven't updated my blog lately.

Bartles53

September 6th, 2007, 02:30 AM

I really dig that Astor Place picture. But how did they get the sun to set in the northeast?
Is the address of Astor Place really going to be Main Street? I would have thought Washington Street. I guess I'm in the minority but I actually kind of like the Astor Place name although I can understand the confusion concern. It seems like a lot of the older prominent buildings in Green Bay are named after a person. I like that tradition.
I was in the Milwaukee Public Market once and I really liked the place. Very modern and colorful. The presentation was great. I'd like to see that or something similar in Astor Place but more than anything, downtown will need a place where people can get their staples and not pay a premium for it. If they could find someone to open what's essentially a standard grocery store with the flair (Office Space) of a Milwaukee Public Market, that would be ideal.

GBFAN

September 6th, 2007, 03:43 AM

I think this a great idea for the S &S building on its own. But I wonder a coffee shop on that site, then a coffee site opening in Belling Building not to mention Cafe Espresso right down the road. I dont see the market for this.

MareCity

September 6th, 2007, 04:55 AM

A 'whole foods market' could probably refer to any kind of organic/natural type store. But anyway, here are some criteria that Whole Foods lists on their website for whether or not a site would be good for putting a store there:

* 200,000 people or more in a 20 minute drive time
* 40,000–75,000 Square Feet
* Large number of college-educated residents
* Abundant parking available for our exclusive use
* Stand alone preferred, would consider complementary
* Easy access from roadways, lighted intersection
* Excellent visibility, directly off of the street
* Must be located in a high traffic area (foot and/or vehicle)
(from http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/realestate/index.html)

I noticed now they are referring to the market/retail area of Astor as 'Metro Market.' I thought it was going to be 'Flatley Market'...wonder if anyone will be miffed about that.

S and S proposed development:
I wonder how much of the building this bar/cafe/coffeehouse will take up. And...I wonder if someone else will again think of making the upper level into New York style lofts (I believe that was part of the dead 'Adams street station' plan). That would be cool.

Danillo

September 6th, 2007, 05:05 PM

Thanks for posting the Whole Foods criteria. As it applies to Astor Place:

* 200,000 people or more in a 20 minute drive time - Pretty close, probably
* 40,000–75,000 Square Feet - Not even remotely close
* Large number of college-educated residents - Not even close
* Abundant parking available for our exclusive use - Things are looking very bad
* Stand alone preferred, would consider complementary - Has to be complementary
* Easy access from roadways, lighted intersection - Not particularly
* Excellent visibility, directly off of the street - Yup
* Must be located in a high traffic area (foot and/or vehicle) - We hope!

So that means that, at best, Astor Place meets 2 or 3 of the requirements. But look at the space required! A Whole Foods needs 40,000 sq/ft minimum, and the largest space in Astor Place is just over 5,000. If you combine all the spaces on the first 3 floors that you realistically could, it's 16,614 sq/ft for a somewhat oddly shaped space.

Not only does that not bode well for a Whole Foods, it also is far too small (I'd guess) for anything that I'd consider a general-shopping grocery. For refernece, the Save-A-Lot web site says their typical store is 14,000 to 18,000 sq/ft. We have a Save-A-Lot in the downtown area. I've been there a fair bit and quite like it, but that's not a very big store, and it's a much more useful shape for a grocery as well.

Hopefully they have a good plan for that space, I'm not grocery expert, so there may well be ideas and options that I'm not thinking of.

I noticed now they are referring to the market/retail area of Astor as 'Metro Market.' I thought it was going to be 'Flatley Market'...wonder if anyone will be miffed about that.

I didn't catch that. If it happens, yes, people will be miffed, and I will be one of them. But that evening rendering is great, I can't wait to see something like it in real-life.

Kramerica

September 6th, 2007, 07:04 PM

I can't see Whole Foods (or any of the other similar groceries) wanting to be in downtown GB, at least at this point. I think Green Bay would be a good market for them, but they'd either have to be on Oneida in Ashwaubenon or somewhere in the expanding east side near I-43. That's where the affluent suburban shoppers are. I could also see the Fox Cities getting one along the US 41 corridor.

I know I'm late to the party on this issue, but... the name City Deck stinks! When I first saw that term here, I did not think for a second about the boardwalk. They just don't connect.

Fillmore

September 6th, 2007, 10:28 PM

Trader Joes would be a better fit for the GB downtown market since they are inexpensive, offer "gourmet" fare, and can thrive in smaller spaces. I have written them several times to get them to GB, but their response it typical: they have no plans to enter the market. They would certainly be a reason to come downtown, however. Check out their website TraderJoes.com and give them your thoughts--they really are a great company.
I don't think Whole Foods would ever enter the GB market, simply not enough people...

Danillo

September 6th, 2007, 10:58 PM

Green Bay 4 Life

September 7th, 2007, 12:07 AM

Saw the renderings for the proposed S&S building on display in the window. Seems not to change much which is good. I hope they replace, repair the second story windows though. Also not sure of the huge sign they want to stick on both street fronts, but I guess that remains to be seen... It would be cool if it is back lit in red...

On the City Deck name comment, I think also what is being said about Whole Foods and Trader Joes about college educated individuals and median income played into the naming. It is a simple name that most can identify with. If they made it too flashy, it may scare people away (even though it will be free to walk on and sit down) - the uneducated may not figure that out.

The thought I can't get out of my head is thinking about Team America and Kim Jong-il saying, "Da Shitty Deck", "Da Shitty Deck". I laugh myself to sleep every night. Oh well. They can name it whatever they want as long as it gets built.

I guess we'll see if the Meyer Board is serious about the Grand Union as they indicated they wanted to know by September if it is a go or not. Would be nice for one or two more sales/reservations happened to make this project a reality.

In my opinion, the City needs some of these projects to become a reality and it will be easier for other developers as well as businesses that may locate in the proposals to take GB seriously. With the Bellin redo, Grand Union, River Center, and Ramp retail - maybe things like Astor, Site 4, and the mall may see some more interest. I just think with all talk and no walk so many people are sooooooo damn skeptical and they have every right to be. But alas, Astor looks like it could teeter either way as well as the Grand Union and who knows about the ramp retail. If we can't even get a dry cleaners or convienience store or for that matter a wine or liquor store to come in - that is freakin sad.

GBSurveyor

September 7th, 2007, 05:22 AM

The thought I can't get out of my head is thinking about Team America and Kim Jong-il saying, "Da Shitty Deck", "Da Shitty Deck". I laugh myself to sleep every night. Oh well. They can name it whatever they want as long as it gets built.

I just fell out of my chair laughing....:lol:

really though- do you think people are that bad???

And I say keep the Astor Place name- 100 Main is pretty mediocre.

Another thought to throw out there, has there been any vision for the property north of Leicht Park? There appears to be a couple of low use warehouse buildings and then the mammoth piles of calcium.

sr22ger

September 7th, 2007, 04:15 PM

GBSurveyor

September 7th, 2007, 07:20 PM

One of the biggest problems when it comes to Green Bay getting a place like Trader Joes is that they look at statistics like "Large number of college-educated residents" and Green Bay is a city with a low number of college educated residents. Now, I think that fact is of concern for a lot bigger reasons than keeping us from getting a Trader Joes, but difficulty in attracting such businesses is one side effect. The state simply HAS to support the UW system and the UWGB Growth Agenda.

That aside, I've heard really good things about Trader Joe's, and from what I can tell they would be the ideal sort of fit for downtown.

I know this has been mentioned many times, and I feel like I'm beating the "dead horse" but really we need someone to step up with decent jobs. If I just look at my high school graduating class, well over 75% of my friends that went away to college stayed away and never returned. When I ask why, for the most part it has to do with culture and job opportunities that exist in other places. Both are very much lacking here.

So Dan I think that you are right, we do need to build up the UW System but also find a way to retain some of those educated people as well. Not everyone wants to be in a manufacturing based system or nursing...

Danillo

September 7th, 2007, 07:33 PM

^^ I agree, it's both. So, onward with the UWGB growth agenda, and onward with promoting entrepreneurship in NE Wisconsin!!!!

gbmphillips

September 7th, 2007, 09:29 PM

gbgoose

September 7th, 2007, 11:39 PM

I've always thought something like an ampitheatre would go well in downtown Green Bay. Perhaps around Leicht Park or either just North of the Holiday Inn or just south of Fox Harbor. That could expand the riverfront development to more than between Walnut and Dousman/Main.

Additional question - how much vacancy do we have in downtown right now (i.e. along Jefferson St., Cherry St, Adams, etc.)?

Puant

September 8th, 2007, 12:34 AM

^^most other cities our size have at least some kind of sports venue in the downtown. All of our major venues are elsewhere. I agree with GBM that a baseball stadium would be really cool. That said, one of the things I like about Johannes Park is that it's not far out at all, pretty close to downtown. That, and with the history of the place, as nice as it would be to move it into downtown I'd be a little sad to see it leave a place with such history.. This is like Green Bay's miniature Wrigley Field, kinda.

As for attracting our "blue collar" types downtown, I'm all for that as well. I'm just not sure how to do it, short of parking Matt Kenseth and his racecar out on the boardwalk. I understand the 'stereotypical' blue collar Green Bayan doesn't frequent the museum, library or theater. and they're not going to hang out on the shittyDeck either (I also laughed out loud at 4Life's post, by the way)....but certainly there are other ways to bring every walk of life in. I'm not sure how, I think a lot of us have good ideas if only we could find some moneybags to implement them.

More & more people seem to be interested in downtown again, but it's still tough to find the ways to make stuff happen again. A lot of improvements don't have to cost that much money, in my opinion. Take Dan's idea for the "central park" square in front of BayLake. It's relatively cheap and easy to convert a surface parking lot into something more pleasant and attractive like that, but unfortunately we can't make that happen because of precious parking, oh precious parking.

If I may ramble a bit more...Sometimes I get really frustrated about this parking thing. In fact, I'd like to write a little parable about the citizens who grumble and complain about the need for parkiing, parking, parking and more parking. In this story, the citizens don't want to get together anymore because it's always too hard to find a parking spot. So, they decide to solve the problem once and for all by build ingthe most quantity of parking lots in the land. Then one day, alll the parking lots are finished, and the citizens rejoice. Then they all drive downtown and have no problem finding a cheap parking spot. Each person gets out of their car, lots of kudos and pats on the back and cheers for finally solving the parking problem in the downtown. Then they look around, and see there' nothing left to do, everything's been torn down to put in the parking lots. . So they get in their cars and go home and never return again. Sound familiar?

gbmphillips

September 8th, 2007, 04:37 AM

That said, one of the things I like about Johannes Park is that it's not far out at all, pretty close to downtown. That, and with the history of the place, as nice as it would be to move it into downtown I'd be a little sad to see it leave a place with such history.. This is like Green Bay's miniature Wrigley Field, kinda. Personally I think the stadium lost all of its charm when the city torn down the old grandstand and put in the bleachers. It took away the feel of a being at a ballpark and turned it into a baseball field. I wish the city could have seen what they were doing back then, but it seems like in the 70's we had a lot of blind leadership when it came to moving the city forward.

I have looked and looked and have never been able to find old pictures of that grandstand.

GBSurveyor

September 8th, 2007, 04:40 AM

WHile many here are excited about new coffee house and whole food stores and other business that cater to a certain demograph, I have always said they need something downtown that will attract the blue collar people in this town to really bring it back to life.

I had mentioned to the owner of the Green Bay Bullfrogs that while the Johannes park was a nice place to play ball he should have looked at the old Larson Canning site for a new stadium considering all the money he stuck into the old park. He did offer this to that comment While the improvements to Joannes have been substantial, we continue to look at a new stadium possibility down the road or a MAJOR renovation to the existing stadium. Really depends on fan support in years 2 and 3 and of course needing to convince the city of Green Bay officials that the Bullfrogs are here to stay and that a new stadium could play a major role in the revitalization of downtown Green Bay.

That would be so sweet a real reason for people to be downtown!

I'm also in agreement with the Stadium idea, sort of. It would be nice to have a new stadium, but I would hate to see the amount of parking required to accommodate it. And when you really think about it, it might bring people downtown for a few hours and then they will almost surely zip back home and there left is a vacant downtown. So I guess what I am saying is that we need more then just a stadium, more then just a cafe or a whole foods store. We have to continue the course...we have to build up the population density of downtown and improve the central neighborhoods, reduce the numer of multi-family conversions, maybe we need to artificially encourage the g - word, gentrification, fix up some of the architectural gems that are rotting away and abused.

What we need is a shift of perception, maybe if any of these projects get off the ground, it will help. The more cities that I visit, the more I think that Green Bay got hit the hardest with the "urban renewal" blunders of the 70's & 80's.

The way I see it is if a place is truely is cool, peolpe shouldn't need a reason to be downtown.

Puant

September 8th, 2007, 05:20 AM

I'm also in agreement with the Stadium idea, sort of. It would be nice to have a new stadium, but I would hate to see the amount of parking required to accommodate it. And when you really think about it, it might bring people downtown for a few hours and then they will almost surely zip back home and there left is a vacant downtown.
.

The nice thing about downtown stadiums is that the games usually take place in the evenings, so as the business crowds are leaving, the sports fans are taking up the same parking spots the day crowd just vacated.

As for what was done in the '70s, I don't mean to "pick on" the city leaders of the time. I know they put a great deal of effort into planning the GREGBY renewal, and they did what they felt they had to do to keep the downtwon vibrant. Like us, they had passion about the place and I know at least a few of them agonized about tearing down the historic buildings.

No, I don't really fault them; Hindsight is 20/20 and I know that some of them who are still alive today realize the mistakes that were made.

I guess I'm critical just from the standpoint of understanding the problem and learning from past mistakes so we don't repeat them in the future.

Puant

September 8th, 2007, 05:37 AM

[QUOTE=GBSurveyor;15247381], maybe we need to artificially encourage the g - word, gentrification, fix up some of the architectural gems that are rotting away and abused.
QUOTE]

We all love to see an abused old gem fixed up properly and reborn, like the Bellin Building. I'm not sure it's necessary to gentrify or displace anyone at this point though, unless there is some blatant disregard for an architectural gem.
On a related note, Someone asked about vacancies, there are unfortunately still a slew of vacant buildings especially on Adams St. While the corner S&S building is about to be injected with life again, the other S&S building next door is still vacant. Across the street, the street level of the Frankenthal building is also vacant. This Frankenthal vacancy kind of blows my mind. It's a beautiful Mediterranean-style, unique building on a prominent but not obnoxiously-car busy corner. There's lots going for it yet it's been largely vacant for at least a few years now. Further down Adams St there are quite a few more vacant buildings like the former Riser's Diamond Vault--which, by the way, I read somewhere there are plans for...Do you recall what the plans were?
As for Jefferson St: The old YMCA is still an active area, but the rest of north Jefferson is mostly fronted by parking lots. South Jefferson is really nice near the Courthouse. The WBAY building..it's great to have a tenant like that there, but does anyone else think the building is looking a little shoddy these days? That's another historic building that's at least somewhat architecturally-significant, yet I see stuff falling off the walls, it's kind of crumbling in places. Don't get me wrong, the last thing I'd want to happen to this place is to have WBAY move out. That's why I hope to see some attention to it soon so that they can keep going there and not be forced to move out later due to major structural problems.. The old Kellogg library is still looking fine, I think it's a great looking federal courthouse. Hopefully it's functioning for them so they stay there. Further south on Jefferson, I think most of the buildings have tenants.

gbmphillips

September 9th, 2007, 04:45 PM

Here is a little place that I think would be perfect for a ball park and an area that couild use a little attention.

http://www.greenbayphorum.com/gifs/ballpark1.jpg

hckystr42

September 9th, 2007, 10:27 PM

GBPHILLIPS-

I like that idea a lot actually. What I think would make it even better would be then if they would have the park angled so as you look out into the outfield you would see downtown in the background similar to PNC park in pittsburgh.

Puant

September 9th, 2007, 11:05 PM

^^That would be an 'intimate' site for a ball park, you need about 550' x 550' to fit something like this in. This site is might be a little small, pretty tight. It might fit if the stadium could be placed right up against the river and Mason St. If home runs would land out in the water kind of like AT&T Park in San Francisco, that'd be pretty cool. Also I'd advocate to keep that boat slip in place to let people take a boat to the ballpark and dock it there. That would add some interest. A ballpark like this sure would be a nicer sight from up on Mason St bridge. And I also think the stadium could be built to let the 'skyline' (or what we may have of one someday) show. Nice idea GBM.

GBSurveyor

September 10th, 2007, 06:31 AM

Here is a little place that I think would be perfect for a ball park and an area that couild use a little attention.

http://www.newffl.net/images/ballpark.jpg

That site sure could use something, however it doesn't seem like there would be enough room. Another limiting factor would have to be the railroad tracks. If I recall, the city has some sort of right or agreement in place for the K&K warehousing site if it would become feasible to build on.

Wasn't there some sort of vision for that property, did it include a entertainment use? This sure would seem a long way off but...If something would ever happen I would like to see some additional office, residential use in that area, to somehow help justify a large surface lot to accommodate the fans. It would be cool to hangout and tailgate along the river.

I did a little digging. Here are a few links of possible similar sized projects. I am guessing, but the current stadium might sit 2,000? so a new park would most likely be designed to accommodate at least double? I do realize that this sure is a long shot... But it is fun to look, never the less.

http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/aballparks.htm

http://www.baseballparks.com/2007Minors.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntington_Park_(Columbus,_Ohio)

gbmphillips

September 10th, 2007, 06:36 AM

Take a look at this link scroll down and you will see some pictures of a stadium in Davenport IA. Looks a lot like the type of area that I suggested. train tracks a bridge. etc

http://www.newffl.net/gbforum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=492

gbbear2117

September 10th, 2007, 08:22 AM

the pictures of the davenport stadium were really impressive. good work on those. if we could get a stadium that looks even half as good as that, it would be a great asset to downtown

Puant

September 12th, 2007, 02:16 PM

Too bad nobody started the downtown revitalization and condo plans downtown about 6 years ago. Had they cleaned the place up back then, I think we'd have our condos downtown. Well, I guess as long as the population continues to grow in the area, I still think the Astor condos still have a shot.

Posted September 12, 2007 in the Green Bay Press-Gazette

Brown Co. saw area's top housing growth, according to Census

Data show steady increase since 2000 in region
By Malavika Jagannathan
mjaganna@greenbaypressgazette.com

Current housing market woes aside, the six years between 2000 and 2006 have been more than good to homeowners, real estate agents and builders in Northeastern Wisconsin, according to the latest update to the Census Bureau's American Community Survey.

Released today, the numbers show that housing units have been on a steady increase since 2000 in Northeastern Wisconsin. Brown County boasted the greatest percentage and numerical increase in housing units, jumping 13.6 percent from 90,199 units in 2000 to 101,423 in 2006. Housing units include apartments, condominiums, single-family homes and even single rooms.

Between July 1, 2005, and July 1, 2006, there was a nationwide increase of 1.8 million housing units or 1.4 percent. Housing units in Brown County mirror that trend in the same period of time, climbing 1.37 percent from 100,043 in 2005 to 101,423 in 2006. In the same time period, Door and Kewaunee counties saw about 10 percent increases in housing units with Oconto, Shawano, Marinette and Manitowoc counties showing about 7 percent increases each.

But on Tuesday, the National Association of Realtors had a less rosy prediction, forecasting that construction of new homes will fall to 1.4 million this year from 1.8 million last year — signs of a lagging housing market and ongoing problems in the mortgage market.

Between 2000 and 2006, record-low interest rates led to a booming housing industry and an overall increase in the numbers of people owning homes across the country, said Michael Miller, president of the Brown County Home Builders Association.

"I think the interest rates have been right, which has allowed a lot of people to get into new homes," Miller said. "I think there has also been affordable building being done."

In 2006, more than two-thirds of all occupied homes nationwide were occupied by the owner. Here in Brown County, that's about the same with 67.7 percent or 64,336 of 95, 062 occupied housing units lived in by the owners.

About 12.5 percent or 11,882 of the 95,062 occupied housing units tallied up in the county were built in 2000 or later, according to the data from the Census Bureau.

Large numbers of the aging baby boomer generation, many of whom bought second or third homes or condominiums, are another factor, said Jerry Lyons, president of the Realtors Association of Northeast Wisconsin and a Realtor in Waupaca.

When Howard resident Robert Lytie and his wife started planning their new home in the Glen Kent Estates last year, nearly two decades after moving into their home in Suamico, they opted to build a new home rather than buy an existing property.

"We could have gotten an existing home cheaper because there's competition to sell," said Lytie, a retired machinist. "We put a lot of ourselves in this home … we wanted to build a home the way we wanted it."

Glen Kent Estates — a sprawling subdivision in the western part of Howard where the Lyties are building their house — is a chief reason the village posted more building permits in 2007 to date for single-family homes than it did all last year, said community development director Dave Wiese.

According to data from the Brown County Home Builders Association, Howard and the town of Ledgeview had the highest number of single-family residential building permits taken out in the first half of 2007.

Even with the market lagging, Lyons of the Realtors Association says Wisconsin's market — which saw a steady growth but not an explosion like Arizona or Florida — will hold up. Although Flagler County in Florida has consistently placed as the fastest-growing county in the country in the past few years, it dropped to fifth place in the 2006 Census data.

"Prices are holding up. The biggest change is that there's a bit more of a lag … more inventory," Lyons said. "My prediction is that it doesn't become very acute … that it's just a market adjustment."

Still, the National Association of Realtors revised its monthly prediction of existing home sales from 6.5 million last year to 5.9 million in 2007 – a drop of 8.6 percent and one of the lowest numbers posted since 2002. According to the organization, new home sales will also drop by a more dramatic 24 percent to 801,000 this year.

Lytie, who didn't start building his new home until his Suamico home was sold, said he only waited a few months for that to happen.

"We knew the housing market wasn't too good but our property was on a lake, so we figured someone would want to live on it," Lytie said.

Inside the Beltway

September 13th, 2007, 02:00 PM

GBSurveyor

September 13th, 2007, 02:42 PM

I received an e-mail this morning from Allegiant Air advertising $13 each way fares from Green Bay to Phoenix-Mesa.

So, it looks like Phoenix is the new destination from GRB. Neither the Airport's website nor Allegiant's show this, but the offer in the e-mail is good for 13 hours starting this morning, so maybe I received some sort of sneek peek offer.

Now if only there was a direct link between DC and Green Bay...

edit: I see that wbay.com is reporting Allegiant will start service to both Phoenix and Fort Lauderdale from Green Bay...that's great news!

From WBAY.COM

Allegiant to Launch Flights to More Destinations

Sep 12, 2007 06:03 PM CDT

There will soon be more options if you're trying to make a sunny escape from Northeast Wisconsin.

Allegiant Air announced non-stop service to two more vacation destinations from Austin Straubel International Airport in Brown County: Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and Phoenix-Mesa, Arizona.

Service to both cities is expected to take off in mid-November.

titletown

September 13th, 2007, 06:14 PM

That is great news about more non-stop cities for Green Bay. I really wish instead of Ft. Lauderdale, it would of been more popular Florida cities like Orlando or Tampa area. I have flown into Ft. Lauderdale a year a go and thought it was a great airport. Whatever I have to do not to fly into one of the big circus airports, MIA. I can't stand that airport in Miami, they are so uneducated and rude there.

Bellin Building

September 14th, 2007, 05:36 PM

I very much like the idea of a baseball stadium downtown.

On a side note, we now have a web site up for the Bellin Building and are posting daily/weekly pictures of the renovation at www.bellinbuilding.com There are a couple of links and pages still in progress that will be completed in the next week or two -- but at least the internal renovations section can be viewed.

Steve at Bellin Building

GBSurveyor

September 14th, 2007, 07:48 PM

Steve,
Thanks for all the updates, the renovations look fabulous.
Keep up the good work!!!
Maybe we need your group to look at some other downtown buildings???

Danillo

September 14th, 2007, 10:49 PM

:banana: :carrot: :pepper: :cucumber: :banana2:

An update worthy of many danicing fruits and vegetables!

Can't wait to see the Bellin Building finished! Should I infer from the tenant list the the restaurant will be named Quincy's?

hckystr42

September 14th, 2007, 11:19 PM

Looking at that bellin website it is great to see what they are doing to that building, but at the same time it almost upsets me because almost no other building owners care nearly as much as the owners of the bellin.

Also, all of the articles say that the stonehouse apartments and childrens museum will begin in september. Has anyone heard an actual date for that or will we just have to wait and see when it happens?

Emerald City

September 14th, 2007, 11:23 PM

I give you a lot of credit Steve! Great building, great website, great renovations! I wish more business minded people would take after you and 1) invest in our great downtown 2) rehab the gems we currently have to enhance the new buildings we will hopefully be getting 3) Spend so much time, passion, and money to make the downtown a brighter more friendly place for all to enjoy and experience Hats off to you Steve, kudos and many, many thanks! :tyty:

Bay2Bay

September 15th, 2007, 01:35 AM

Looks like GRB is on a roll...

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070914/GPG03/70914096/1978

Continental to begin service to Green Bay in April

Daily routes to and from Cleveland will begin

Travelers in and out of Ashwaubenon’s Austin Straubel International Airport got another dose of good news today.

Continental Airlines will begin service April 6 at Austin Straubel with two daily nonstop flights on a new route to its Cleveland hub. At Cleveland, travelers will have the ability to connect to dozens of additional destinations throughout the Midwest, Northeast, Canada and Europe — including London and Paris.

This comes on the heels of an announcement by Allegiant Air Thursday that it will begin nonstop direct service to Phoenix-Mesa, Ariz., from Green Bay beginning Nov. 15.

Tom Miller, airport manager, said Continental’s service to Cleveland will be a positive addition.

“I think basically what it will do is complement the service we already have to the east and to the south,” he said. “It will provide another hub for passengers to choose where to make their connections when making their flight reservations.”

And, he said, more competition will help the traveling consumer.

“I think this will help improve the competitive nature of the Green Bay and all of Northeastern Wisconsin travel market.”

See Saturday’s Press-Gazette or www.greenbaypressgazette.com for more information.

-- Bob Van Enkenvoort/Press-Gazette

Fillmore

September 15th, 2007, 06:27 PM

Who in their right mind would want to go to Cleveland?

Green Bay 4 Life

September 15th, 2007, 07:47 PM

Who in their right mind would want to go to Cleveland?

Maybe not so much going to Cleveland, but provides greater oppurtunity to connect to other cities and what not. The more choices and flight time options, the better.

Fillmore

September 15th, 2007, 09:25 PM

Just kidding, that's great news for Green Bay; hope other cities follow

titletown

September 16th, 2007, 05:07 AM

I thought the same thing... Cleveland why there? but after reading and seeing that Cleveland is one of the Continental hubs it makes sense. They offer the most international destinations of any airline. Imagine flying Green Bay-Cleveland-Paris...not bad.

Emerald City

September 17th, 2007, 10:05 PM

Is this the new plan for the old JC Penny Building?

http://www.loopnet.com/looplink/pfefferleinvest/searchresults.aspx?SearchType=FL&VIEWSTATEID=856764991&PgCxtGuid=383cc309-6503-4a63-810d-d5125dd91fa9&PgCxtCurFLKey=LooplinkSearchPage&name=%2fbrokers%2fpfefferleinvest&ForLeaseCountry_Hidden=US&ForLeasePropertyType=80&ForLeaseLeaseRateMonthlyAnnual=YR&ForLeaseLooplinkSubmit=Begin+Search&ForLeaseCity=Green+Bay&R_FL_C=Green+Bay&ReturnTargetUrl=%2fxNet%2fLoopLink%2fLoopLinks%2fpfefferleinvest%2fqrylease.aspx&R_FL_LRMA=YR&R_FL_PT=80

Go to the bottom of this first page and it says 330 Main St., Green Bay Available for immediate occupancy. It also has a graphic of a totally new facade. Anyone else hear about this?

Green Bay 4 Life

September 17th, 2007, 10:46 PM

Geography Teacher

September 17th, 2007, 11:10 PM

GBSurveyor

September 18th, 2007, 08:41 AM

Here is the pic from the AD (http://www.loopnet.com/xNet/Looplink/Profile/Profile.aspx?LL=true&LID=14873384&STID=/brokers/pfefferleinvest)

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/jcpenney0907.jpg

I would bet that this is not going to generate much if any interest the way it is being marketed. What tenant would you envsion going there? I would be more intersted to find out what plans may lie with the mall property and hopefully this property might have other uses associated with it, such as expanded KI space or small retail (if Flatly Court becomes extended east)

here is the link to the property information site.

http://www.loopnet.com/Attachments/A/F/9/AF975569-A9B5-48F7-B95A-A2E9865B0B7A.pdf

GBSurveyor

September 18th, 2007, 09:01 AM

Isn't that just a generic design they put out there to generate interest, instead of using the VERY uninspired existing facade? I assume that if a solid tenant came in and wanted something else, they'd make it happen.

I also would assume this.

As for the new Continental and Allegiant services, it will be interesting to see what happens to prices out of GRB. I can't say that I have flown much lately to notice, and I always choose GRB out of loyalty and convenience, but people have complained about fares compared to Milwaukee and other regional airports.

Is Northwest in a position of weakness that these airlines are coming in here now? Or do they just assume that Green Bay is a boomtown based on our skyline? :lol:
One thing with Allegiant's service to Vegas is that the price is pretty stable, they do have peak travel pricing, but you can usually get there for under $250.
Phoenix I guess is a surprise to me. I was temped to buy the into fare price just to go check out Taliesin West.

I hope that in the end, we are not the losers because all this really did was dilute the market share for Norhtwest and then they start pulling flights from here, and then we will also be banished to concourse A at MSP. Wonder if this will affect the Appleton - GRB competition or lack of?

I trust someone did their home work here.

Bartles53

September 18th, 2007, 06:55 PM

De Pere council to weigh options for bridge area

Parking lot, park considered for space by old span

By Patti Zarling
pzarling@greenbaypressgazette.com

DE PERE — The time is nearing for the city to set concrete plans about space at the eastern approach of the soon-to-be-closed Claude Allouez Bridge.

About a year ago, the City Council agreed to leave its options open for the valuable riverside property, which will be vacated when the old bridge is closed and eventually torn down and a new span opens. Options include park space, development, or a mix of the two.

The bridge teardown will leave a roughly 120-foot-by-285-foot gap where the eastern approach of the current span joins with George Street. State plans currently call for a parking lot, according to city planning director Ken Pabich.

Local architect Marc Brummel, who owns property just north of the site, is touting a town square-type project that would create park space in the area.

Pabich said staff is looking for some direction from the council before putting out a request for design proposal. The council is expected to debate the options on Oct. 2.

Once proposals are received, the city's Redevelopment Authority will review them and make a recommendation to the City Council, which has the final say.

Almost a year ago, the council approved the boundaries for a new tax increment-finance district in the area, running roughly in the 100 and 200 blocks of South Broadway and Wisconsin Street and down both sides of George Street to South Winnebago Street. Under a TIF, property taxes are frozen and used to support infrastructure for the life of the TIF.

The only bone of contention to the plan at that time was whether the bridge's right-of-way should be designated for "mixed use" or "green space."

Those who support the "green space" concept say the city shouldn't fritter away an opportunity to create a civic area that could include a mix of parkland, trails, parking, a plaza or amphitheater.

"If we accept this TIF, we open the floodgates to development," Brummel predicted earlier last year when he presented four concepts for creating a civic space for the site, which he said shouldn't be filled in, in part, because it sits at the end of busy George Street.

A mix of park and development might make it a more attractive destination for visitors, Pabich said. It also could tie somehow into plans to create a walkway and fishing pier extending from the east side of the Fox River. Some of the current bridge's supports will be saved for the possible pier.

Pabich said small-scale development could help offset the park, which would have no direct financial benefit to the city.

If the City Council decides it would like the area to be used entirely for parkland, it might sit dormant while funding is secured, he said. In that case, the state might put down grass until park development moves forward. The state is looking for direction to decide whether or not to pour concrete for a parking lot, he said.

Hahahahahahahaha. BRILLIANT!

Puant

September 19th, 2007, 02:09 PM

With this JCPenney building and the rest of the mall, I'm kind of torn between what to do with it.

ON the one hand, it's environmentally-responsible to do the "adaptive reuse" thing and try to reuse the existing materials and building.

On the other hand, these buildings just suck so bad to start with and there seems to be almost no hope to make them into anything.

I often think about this as I gaze in horror at the BayLake building. Yeah, put that old mall building and put it to good use. But the fake facade sucks and the whole massing is still just weird. Seeing how the riverfront is shaping up, how I wish Pine St had been put through that building and BayLake would have built something better. More money, yeah, but in the end, years down the road, a good building is less expensive than a bad building (a famous architect said that).

I think what Vetter is doing wiht the Pranges building strikes a balance pretty well. They are recycling everything yet reshaping them into something decent.

gbgoose

September 19th, 2007, 04:23 PM

I posted a thread in the Appleton dev spot, but thought it was interesting. They're doing a Summer concert series (similar to Waterfest in Oshkosh) where they're trying to attract national acts.

3 things I noticed -

1. It's the bars' way to combat the smoking ban (although I'm in favor of that)
2. Proceeds go to the saferide program for taxi rides for those too drunk to drive
3. Appleton is anticipating some sort of ampitheatre to be built on the riverfront.

I know I've beat a dead horse on here a couple of occasions with what I feel this would do for Green Bay, especially having thousands of people around downtown - and possibly within walking distance if Astor Place ever goes up.

Here's the link if you don't go to the thread:
Summer Concert Series (http://www.postcrescent.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070919/APC0101/709190588/1979)

Green Bay 4 Life

September 19th, 2007, 11:54 PM

Looks like they have begun exterior demo work on the white portion of the former Younker's Building as well as a portion of the rear of the cream colored tower as well this afternoon. So for those looking for one last look, you better get out there and pay your respects.

Other than that it looks like that Legacy Condo project across from Lambeau is dead as their website no longer exists. I guess fewer condos in the fold, maybe some of those buyers will move downtown or to Prestige Towers (who appears to have some interest now as about 5 units have been reserved in one tower and one in the other). Slow and steady wins the race.

Any news on the Grand Union? Anyone. Anyone? I haven't seen any ads in the paper lately. Hopefully that project is not dead.

gbmphillips

September 21st, 2007, 07:04 PM

I posted a thread in the Appleton dev spot, but thought it was interesting. They're doing a Summer concert series (similar to Waterfest in Oshkosh) where they're trying to attract national acts.

3 things I noticed -

1. It's the bars' way to combat the smoking ban (although I'm in favor of that)
2. Proceeds go to the saferide program for taxi rides for those too drunk to drive
3. Appleton is anticipating some sort of ampitheatre to be built on the riverfront.
Good for Appleton. Once again they are leading in becoming THE city in the Fox Valley area planning something that will benefit and bring in more people downtown But thats ok Green Bay will have a $12,000,000 boardwalk where they can hear a couple of people playing guitars.

Cable building a $20,000,000 building in Appleton that will have 400 to 900 employees, Green Bay is getting a new coffee/bagel/sandwich shop downtown.

Green Bay 4 Life

September 21st, 2007, 08:06 PM

mgk920

September 21st, 2007, 08:19 PM

Good for Appleton. Once again they are leading in becoming THE city in the Fox Valley area planning something that will benefit and bring in more people downtown But thats ok Green Bay will have a $12,000,000 boardwalk where they can hear a couple of people playing guitars.

Cable building a $20,000,000 building in Appleton that will have 400 to 900 employees, Green Bay is getting a new coffee/bagel/sandwich shop downtown.
Interesting, though, in that the Time-Warner project is on the city's fringe, located on Plank Rd southwest of the Wal*Mart at WI 441/Calumet St (along that big curve in the WI 441 freeway) - well away from the downtown area.

It will be interesting, too, to see where the City of Appleton places that future amphitheater, although a nice site may be the city's former water plant, on the north side of the river between Oneida St and Memorial Dr, now under demolition.

Mike

gbmphillips

September 21st, 2007, 08:23 PM

^^ I guess we forget too soon that Apac brought 800 jobs downtown and is looking to grow and the Boardwalk will facilitate a larger concert series with the proposed stage. Everyone may not agree on the uses coming into DT, but at the same time, there is interest in users coming there...I know people are excited to have a couple of hundred people on the boardwalk listening to chamber music, but that is not the crowd you need that will spend money. And yes it was nice of apac to move jobs from one location to another, but this new deal for appleton is new jobs not existing, something Green Bay just has a hard time attracting. But look on the bright side we will have a revitalized cannery with lofts to rent and artist galore.

Danillo

September 21st, 2007, 09:19 PM

^^ GBM, I think you're missing two important points:

A) Appleton is getting something good... THE HORRORS!!! This is a win for the region, and it's not as though it is in any way bad for Green Bay they this will be in Appleton. Green Bay just got the headquarters for WS Packaging. That's not as many employees at this point, but it's a headquarters for a pretty impressive and radpidly growing, nationwide business. It's not all doom and gloom that Appleton has something Green Bay doesn't.

B) You seem to thin that a something like a baseball stadium is going to solve our problems, while consistanly ripping on the boardwalk. These two types of venues serve very different, though complimentary, purposes. Stadia, Ampetheaters, festivals, and theaters bring in a large number of people at a very specific time. For instance, the Meyer Theater brings several hundred people downtown for over 100 evenings a year. A stadium does something similar (as with the others I mentioned). This is a great thing and should be encouraged, and is certainly great for downtown businesses.

On the other hand, a public space like a boardwalk brings a smaller population into town, but over a MUCH wider timeframe. Performances there should be smaller, but more frequent. Even without pregramming, a successful, high quality space will have a population of people using it almost all the time. The key is that the space be of high-qualilty.

So, the issue isn't that Green Bay is wrong for building a boardwalk but not a entertaiment venue like what you want. What a good city really needs is both.

Oh, also, the Larsen Canning property has already become home to Frozen Codebase. THE HORRERS!!!!! A development that has attracted a young company, which was developed right here in Green Bay, and is growing, creating new jobs, and bringing skilled young professionals into our downtown.

Geography Teacher

September 21st, 2007, 10:03 PM

I agree that development in Appleton benefits the entire region. My wife commutes 25 minutes to Appleton for work, so I know more than most that the two communities are closely linked. I get to do most of the cooking, cleaning, etc., while she drives. :)

However, Appleton will always have a geographic advantage as the center of the Fond du Lac-Oshkosh-Neenah/Menasha-Appleton-Fox Cities-Green Bay region. If the population base can only support one type of business, or one warehouse, or one distribution center, or one service center, it will more than likely be placed there.

It is what it is, and, again, development in Appleton does benefit the whole region. But it sure does give that community an advantage.

Green Bay is the end of the line, like Duluth. We have plenty of things that Duluth doesn't, but few people go through here to get somewhere else. I'll bet we have fewer travelers making unplanned stops in hotels, restaurants, truck stops, and other services than just about any other cities our size. How much economic impact are we losing?

Even if it isn't a whole lot, "out of sight, out of mind." How many of us have fond memories of driving through another city, like Chicago, Indianapolis, Nashville, St. Louis, etc., on our way somewhere else? Few travelers in any of those places have the opportunity to generate fond memories of Green Bay because most of them don't drive through here to get somewhere else.

Maybe I shouldn't complain about something that's a factor of geography, completely out of our control, but it is something unique about Green Bay, isn't it?

It bothers me when citizens of other mid-size cities, like Rochester, Cedar Rapids, Quad Cities, Dayton, and - yes, Appleton - brag about their downtowns, their diversity of services, their skylines. Because they themselves had nothing to do with any of that. Cities develop largely due to geographic location and site and the economic activities that have been supported there. That may change in the future as the economy changes, but those places that had geographic advantages will still have big head starts.

Does this diminish my support of and hope for Green Bay's future? No. I just felt like ranting and raving, and perhaps I was looking for excuses for why it has been so difficult for Green Bay's downtown to thrive.

gbgoose

September 21st, 2007, 10:04 PM

^^ I guess we forget too soon that Apac brought 800 jobs downtown and is looking to grow and the Boardwalk will facilitate a larger concert series with the proposed stage. Everyone may not agree on the uses coming into DT, but at the same time, there is interest in users coming there...

I didn't forget about Apac being downtown. I did forget (or say did not know) much about the stage that will be part of the boardwalk.

Actually, everything that I've read that is proposed and / or is taking place DT will be great for Green Bay. One thing I think we can all agree on is this - DT Green Bay is full of potential!

Enjoy the weekend everyone! :cheers:

Green Bay 4 Life

September 21st, 2007, 11:08 PM

:soapbox:

I guess just expanding on a couple of points that have been made.

I couldn’t agree more with the geography point. It is a pain to have to drive to Appleton to shop for vehicles like Acura, Mercedes, Lexus, and soon the Smart car. Part of that has to do with Bergstrom being what they are but part of is that Appleton area is centrally located between the third and eighth largest cities in the state (Green Bay and Oshkosh) not to mention Appleton is the sixth largest city on the state and that there are many suburbs that have significant populations such as De Pere, Ashwaubenon, Howard, Bellevue, Neenah, Menahsa, etc. The same can be said for many other things. When all those people are about 30 minutes away in a central location it makes sense rather than being located in one extreme or the other and having a segment of that population being an hour away. Throw in the proximity to Fond du Lac and this is a pretty significantly sized region. I could rattle off a number of things that Green Bay has that Appleton doesn’t but this isn’t a city vs. city thread. We have the cards we have been dealt and we are competing against these cities as well as our own suburbs for many establishments and developments. Where has the outcry been for all of the suburbs around Green Bay taking business from within our city limits? There is none. But everything Green Bay does to try and improve it’s image and take advantage of being the primary city in Brown County is looked at is it is making another whopper of a mistake. Oh well.

As far as a baseball stadium downtown, whoa – hold your horses for a second. The Bullfrogs have been in existence for one year and now we need to build a 5,000 seat downtown stadium. Let’s make sure they are going to stick around and continue to draw crowds. I sure hope they do, but I would never commit to anything like that after only one year. Personally a boardwalk can be walked on and utilized by everyone, whereas a baseball stadium is only for the paying customer and is limited in use. I’m not saying I am against it. I went to a couple games this past summer, but it would be different if it was a Triple A or Double A minor league team. But the reality of that happening, based on the T-rats being 30 miles away is highly unlikely. So if the Northwoods League is successful here and attendance continues to rise to the point where there are sellouts every night or close to it, let’s bring it up for discussion then. But I think we are a little premature in thinking that the City should contribute funds to a baseball park downtown when there are other significant things to be spending what little money is available.

I guess APAC and Time Warner are similar in nature. APAC moved from a neighboring community into Green Bay, whereas Time Warner is consolidating a number of smaller offices in the Appleton area into one facility. Both instances though aren’t brining a major player into the market from outside the near region. It would be different if a company was moving here from Indiana or California or something. So although this is big news, it isn’t as big as it could have been. Retaining business is key, but also attracting new businesses from other areas is key as well.

On a side note, holy cow. Schneider is worth about 3 billion dollars. How may gifts to the community has this guy made? Not looking for handouts, but 3 billion is 3 billion. He could drop 3 million on the boardwalk and not even think twice. Take some pride in your community and area. You can’t take it with you.

Danillo

September 21st, 2007, 11:27 PM

Few travelers in any of those places have the opportunity to generate fond memories of Green Bay because most of them don't drive through here to get somewhere else.

Uh, how many people anually come up I-43 to get to Door County? Granted, they don't exactly go through the heart of the city to get there, but people don't go through the heart of Appleton driving down 41. Maybe if we gave more of them a reason to head 10 minutes downtown, more would. But none-the-less, that a LOT of people from Chicagoland comeing through on their way somewhere else.

As far as a baseball stadium downtown, whoa – hold your horses for a second. The Bullfrogs have been in existence for one year and now we need to build a 5,000 seat downtown stadium...

Indeed! My point was about that thype of venue, whether it be a stadium, theater, ampetheater, or festival ground, as compared to something like the boardwalk. An events center versus a always-open public space.

On a side note, holy cow. Schneider is worth about 3 billion dollars. How may gifts to the community has this guy made? Not looking for handouts, but 3 billion is 3 billion. He could drop 3 million on the boardwalk and not even think twice. Take some pride in your community and area. You can’t take it with you.

Well, I guess it's his money, he's earned it. Sure, it'd be nice to have our own Dudley, like Wausau has, but Don Schneider owes Green Bay nothing. After all, what's the impact of all the jobs he's created?

GBSurveyor

September 22nd, 2007, 01:12 AM

I hear you as to the pass through cross country drive. No one does a road trip from Atlanta to Denver via Green Bay, and there in not much we can do other then have cool stuff for people to check out, like the spam museum in Minnesota or the Corn palace in Dakotas...:lol:

As far as Time Warner is concerned, that is great news*. However that is a greenfield development out in the "sticks", and by no means are those big time jobs, they earn a decent wage but still are going to require people to drive there to work and be lifeless after business hours. Anyways Appleton and Green Bay in my mind are the same place. Many metros have much larger geographical areas then that.

In all honesty a downtown stadium idea would be many, many years off, maybe decades. A stadium just doesn't bring in enough people to make them feasible unless you are big-time with big spenders. Sorry, the truth sometimes hurts. Green Bay is an area where people like free stuff. I really think that the boardwalk is going to be better then some think. We need cool stuff to attract people with $ to LIVE here. here are some pics...

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/DSC_2781.jpg
any words needed?

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/DSC_2784.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/DSC_2786.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/DSC_2790.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/DSC_2793.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/DSC_2802.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/DSC_2807.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/DSC_2808.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/DSC_2809.jpg

Did we know Miron was going to be involved???

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/DSC_2811.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/DSC_2812.jpg

If you get some time this weekend check this demo out. It is amazing that there are all of there recently exposed timbers that have stood for all these years just become ripped to pieces. Sad to see it go...

Bartles53

September 22nd, 2007, 02:11 AM

Whoa!! It's tough to get my bearings when looking at those pictures. Everything looks so different. It's good to see that some work has begun on the Larsen site too.

I've never paid much attention to the eastern edge of the river downtown until recently but the rust-colored metal retaining wall is straight hideous. When the boardwalk is completed and we all become accustomed to it everyone should pull out a "before" picture and compare. My assumption is the city will hang its head in a collective embarrassment of what the city center riverfront used to be. Driving across the Main & Walnut Street bridges will be a treat as drivers will for the first time be confronted with life downtown.

$12MM may sound excessive now but I bet we'll all be surprised by how much use that investment gets. In a few years we can all compare expectations with reality.

Puant

September 22nd, 2007, 02:26 AM

^^ Another key concept is that we need to treat the downtown as a whole, where each part (like a business, a venue, a boardwalk or whatever) is just one component that fits into a larger whole. Each part is interrelated to one another, everything has to connect and jive in order for it to work. This seems to be kind of a foreign concept in our individualistic society.

The Boardwalk isn't so much an attraction by itself, but it does fit very well into the existing urban landscape fabric. It may only be a 'minor' attraction but still very important in that it connects everything to the downtown's greatest asset (the river) and also beautifies the area. It will be a destination of sorts as the trailhead for the Fox River Trail (most heavily used state trail in Wisconsin). It facilitiates major cultural events like the 4th of July, Tallships, and other festivities.

In contrast, a greenfield development out in the suburbs might have only a couple of interdependencies. For example a road leads one to stick an attraction someplace but that's about the only relation there is to anything else. A suburban development might get away with being a singular attraction because everyone just drives there. And that's what makes it less special in my opinion. I like the diversity, closeness, connectivity of a downtown. That's what makes downtown special. That's why the boardwalk is a great idea.

That said, I agree with GBM that a downtown stadium would be cool and I think it would fit in nicely But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't do anything else to improve the area and make it a suitable and desireable place to visit or locate a business.

Geography
I wouldn't say Green Bay is an "outpost" but clearly it doesn't have as much of a geographic advantage as Appleton as a regional retail hub. Yet, Green Bay has other things going for it geographically, one being the Bay and the Fox River. The Port for example, brings in a lot of business that Appleton can't get. Granted, the type of business the Port brings in is industry and stuff like our famous coal piles. Yet, I think there will be more emphasis placed on the Port and "Short Sea Shipping" in the future as fuel costs rise and people get smart again to this valuable transportation asset.

Attractions
As of a few years ago, here are the numbers for some of our major tourist attractions:

Bay Beach: ~1 million visitors per year (though I think this is inflated)
NEW Zoo: ~300,000 per year
Packer-related: well over 1 million / year
Door County: over 2 million / year

Plus if you sum up other minor tourist attractions like Heritage Hill, Neville Museum, Meyer Theater, Botanical Gardens, Johannes, Barkhausen, and Hazelwood you get another 600,000 visitors per year, according to the tourism folks.

And how many business travellers do we get in town per year? My guess is quite a few. They look for stuff to do in the evenings and spend money while they're here, too. I think the downtown would cater to them nicely if we could fix it up.

Puant

September 22nd, 2007, 05:19 PM

What's going to occupy the River Center complex? So far I know of just a few things: The Children's Museum, some apartments, and ... What else again?

GBSurveyor

September 22nd, 2007, 06:06 PM

What's going to occupy the River Center complex? So far I know of just a few things: The Children's Museum, some apartments, and ... What else again?

Add in a parking garage and I think that is all we know of for sure. There was also talk of Condos and retail along the river, and then the office concept would be along Washington St, above the childrens museum.

I have not heard much about anything for some time. Last was that dtvital had heard talk of hga being involved with the design, still no confirmation.

Sorry, not much help.

Bellin Building

September 22nd, 2007, 06:51 PM

I find the comments about Green Bay vs Appleton very interesting.

My opinion:

1) The pace and amount of development, while determined somewhat by location, is more dependent on the passion and drive of the people promoting development. Laughlin, NV was an empty field in the middle of the desert and now it has billions of dollars of tax base -- but Don Laughlin had a vision and the drive to make it happen. I think Green Bay can be equal and I believe superior to Appleton -- we have the Bay, we have the Packers, we have vibrant paper and insurance industries, we have growing conference facilities, good work ethic .... we have the tools. Two of our stronger tools in Green Bay are Mayor Schmitt and Jeff Mirkes who are passionate about driving development. That enthusiasm has to spread to others in appropriate roles. While there is occasionally criticism of John Vetter here, I think his ongoing commitment and sticking with Green Bay is admirable. He's putting a lot of money on the line in a community that doesn't have a strong track record of supporting urban development. He can also be a driving force but the community has to help him have larger and larger successes in order to have the financial wherewithall and returns to execute the whole plan.

2) Having buildings in both Appleton and Green Bay, the difference between the two cities is NOT location in my opinion or Interstate accessibility. It is a different attitude toward development, growth and updating. Appleton has been very aggressive in a long-term approach to attracting businesses, making them feel welcome and giving them the necessary tools. There was a considerable difference when we bought the Zuelke Building vs. the Bellin Building in the municipal guidance and assistance offered. In Appleton, it came to me. In Green Bay, (other than Jeff Mirkes), I have try to get support and then the city tells me why they can't give it to me. Then I go to the Mayor and he tries to intercede -- sometimes successfully and sometimes not (he has bent over backwards but he also has limitations imposed by others and previous Green Bay administrations). What Mirkes and Schmitt are doing I believe will pay huge dividends for the city if we continue their course while adding more support. Attracting a $20 million facility like Time-Warner takes years to do. Why isn't AMS downtown, Humana, Schneider National, Cellcom, UWGB -- because in those administrations, the powers that were were sitting on their hands instead of providing real incentives, plans, proposals and accomodations to get those businesses downtown.

3) I am finding complementarity between the two communities. If I have a building in each of Appleton and Green Bay, I can offer conference space to my Appleton tenants in Green Bay so that they have a local place to meet their clients. This allows them to develop their client base in Green Bay and eventually they open a Green Bay office in my building. The problem is, historically, Appleton focused on this concept and Green Bay did not. Some concrete examples -- Skyline Technologies is based in Green Bay but also rents considerable space in the Zuelke Building; Recka and Joannes is based in Green Bay but also rents space in the Zuelke Building and has an Appleton presence. How many Appleton law firms or Appleton technology companies have been invited to have a remote presence in Green Bay?

4) I am working on a growth technology business that is much bigger than the Bellin Building could accomodate. It will not be based out of Green Bay, but if cards are played correctly, it could have a significant impact on DT Green Bay. Watch for a press conference on October 5 and a high level national figure to be present.

Thanks,

Steve

Green Bay 4 Life

September 22nd, 2007, 07:11 PM

^^ Holy cow. I'm excited.

Puant

September 22nd, 2007, 08:06 PM

^^ 2) Having buildings in both Appleton and Green Bay, the difference between the two cities is NOT location in my opinion or Interstate accessibility. It is a different attitude toward development, growth and updating.

I couldn't agree more. Well said. How can we change this attitude? We have something of a grass-roots movement going, plus at least a few "heavy hitters" but how do we really get this attitude changed once and for all at all levels?

Thanks for the post, Steve. I've said it before--What you are doing is at least as, if not more, exciting than any of the other plans. We need more people like you in the downtown.

Geography Teacher

September 24th, 2007, 08:59 AM

Uh, how many people anually come up I-43 to get to Door County? Granted, they don't exactly go through the heart of the city to get there, but people don't go through the heart of Appleton driving down 41. Maybe if we gave more of them a reason to head 10 minutes downtown, more would. But none-the-less, that a LOT of people from Chicagoland comeing through on their way somewhere else.

Agreed, but we are so close to their final destination (or their departure point on the way home) that they definitely don't need to stop. It's not exactly the halfway point for requiring services.

I also agree that Green Bay has a lot of things going for it that Appleton doesn't, and that the people living and investing in the community are much more important than the geography. My point is merely that Appleton does have that centrality advantage and that's something we can't change, regardless of our attitudes, hard work, downtown investment, etc.

Let me join in the praise for Steve as well. I'm already making plans to patronize any and all establishments in the Bellin Building.:cheers:

And as Puant asks, can people really describe specifically what it is that the City Council and local government DOES that makes it so difficult for development to occur here? Is it their public statements? Tight purse strings? Paperwork and regulations?

MJinOshkosh

September 24th, 2007, 07:01 PM

I want to make an observation. I know that Green Bay's downtown is now in a transition period with hopes of some new investment to make the downtown a better place to do business and attract tourists. I know Green bay isn't a place that has alot of [Gee, do I really have to go through there to get to my destination type of place] drive through traffic. I would like to see a more progressive and more modern look to Green Bay too.

But at what cost? To bring more people to downtown Green Bay by building a freeway to downtown would be a horrible thing. Look I have nothing but nice things to say of the fine state of Iowa but I have driven through Cedar Rapids and Waterloo Iowa and think how sad it is that a major freeway goes right in the middle of the city in one case (Cedar Rapids) and ends and starts up again in the middle of the other (Waterloo). I think it is a shame that the real continueity of those cities is obstructed by a freeway. I am glad that a freeway doesn't do the same in Green Bay. Despite whatever flaw we see in downtown Green Bay that a freeway doesn't go threw the city just to get to downtown.

titletown

September 24th, 2007, 09:31 PM

http://www.sagreenbay.org/pdfs/krocletter.pdf

Looks like Berners-Schober Associates are the architect. One of a few things I won't miss about Green Bay when I move are the unrealistic groundbreaking dates. Given it is only an estimate, but this happens 100% of the time around here for condos & new developments. I get so frustrated with waiting for everything to happen around here. "We hope to break ground Spring 2006," when really it might be 2010 or so, come on...

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r3/GreenBayWI/KrocCenter.jpg

Danillo

September 25th, 2007, 12:27 AM

In all honesty a downtown stadium idea would be many, many years off, maybe decades... I really think that the boardwalk is going to be better then some think. We need cool stuff to attract people with $ to LIVE here. here are some pics...

If you get some time this weekend check this demo out. It is amazing that there are all of there recently exposed timbers that have stood for all these years just become ripped to pieces. Sad to see it go...

I agree that a stadium is a long, long way off, and probably won't ever happen. This does not particularly sadden me. I think the interesting debate is that of an events facility versus a gathering space, and how the two differ yet compliment one another. More on that later (so much to reply to!)...

Thanks for the photos. I agree that it's sad to see that historic part go. So much history, and a nice building if it could have been fixed up. Let's hope the replacement is worthy of what that once was, not what it became.

$12MM may sound excessive now but I bet we'll all be surprised by how much use that investment gets. In a few years we can all compare expectations with reality.

INDEED!!! I think the biggest question is if $12 million is enough to make the space quality. A city could spend $2 million on a public space and have it be a total waste becuase nobody wants to be there, and the same city could spend $50 million on the same space and have it be a great investment becuase it attracts people and encourages development. Though there was a more expensive option presented, I thought the option selected was the best of those presented (and I got the impression that Chris Reid from StoSS did too), and that's why I supported it.

The Boardwalk isn't so much an attraction by itself, but it does fit very well into the existing urban landscape fabric. It may only be a 'minor' attraction but still very important in that it connects everything to the downtown's greatest asset (the river) and also beautifies the area. It will be a destination of sorts as the trailhead for the Fox River Trail (most heavily used state trail in Wisconsin). It facilitiates major cultural events like the 4th of July, Tallships, and other festivities.

As you noted, this will be an attraction of sorts.

First, I believe it will be a place that people will want to be, that some people will go there just to hang out there. But where it will really make it is as a transportation hub and as a collector of people. Being a destination on the Fox River Trail brings people through, and I predict that the transient boat docks will be a big hit with boaters and a draw. Plus, these people coming and going makes it a good place to people watch.

More important though is how it interacts with other attrators of people. For instance, the boardwalk isn't likely to bring 1,000 people downtown all at once (like Meyer), but it can help collect some of those people after the show so that instead of heading right to their cars, some of them head over to see what's up afterwards. Right now the downtown has no place for such people to congregate. So, even the largest venue can't really increase the life downtown unless it is complemented by a collector like the boardwalk. The city needs both, and currently is doing better with venues than collectors.

Of course, all of this hinges on the space having a high degree of life -- being a place that people want to be. It can't be cheap, and I don't think it will be.

What's going to occupy the River Center complex? So far I know of just a few things: The Children's Museum, some apartments, and ... What else again?

Okay, on the north is the retal lofts portion that's been designed by Stonehouse. That will have a residential entrance, some limited retail on the Washington St. and River sides (I think the rental office will take some of that) and the "live-work" units along Flatley Ct. The rental units will go up, I think, 7 more floors (8-story building).

Unless the pattern of use changes (which I don't really expect), the rest of the development will be like so: Along Washington St, starting from the south, will be the Children's Museum, then the ramp enterance, then lobby space for the commercial above. Above this will be parking, and the commercial space will be above that (the commercial could yet consist of either hotel or office, as far as I know). Along the river, the yellowish/brownish part will be stripped basically to its frame (I think) and will have retail, dining space on the first floor, and condo space above. As I understand, the condos were to be raw lofts, priced more in the mid-range (the number I heard was $140,000, but who knows). I don't know if this will stay with the raw-loft concept or not.

4) I am working on a growth technology business that is much bigger than the Bellin Building could accomodate. It will not be based out of Green Bay, but if cards are played correctly, it could have a significant impact on DT Green Bay. Watch for a press conference on October 5 and a high level national figure to be present.

COOL!

Agreed, but we are so close to their final destination (or their departure point on the way home) that they definitely don't need to stop. It's not exactly the halfway point for requiring services... My point is merely that Appleton does have that centrality advantage and that's something we can't change, regardless of our attitudes, hard work, downtown investment, etc.

I agree that Appleton will be the location of choice for larger, "destination" type retail. At the same time, the places that care about the midway point factor tend to be the larger, national chain stores. These are not the places that typically want to be downtown, nor the type that make a place unique.

If we want the downtown to be vibrant, it will need to be so because of locally owned, unique businesses. These sorts of businesses are less concerned with the geography, and by people more like the people that Steve describes. These are also the type of unique places that make someone from outside the area stop by. Nobody going to Door County is going out of their way for a Chilil's, as they can find one at home, but they may stop down for a unique restaurant (say, in a historic, Chicago-style, 100-year-old building) that they can't get at home. And while they're there, they'll probably check out the boardwalk too.

But at what cost? To bring more people to downtown Green Bay by building a freeway to downtown would be a horrible thing. Look I have nothing but nice things to say of the fine state of Iowa but I have driven through Cedar Rapids and Waterloo Iowa and think how sad it is that a major freeway goes right in the middle of the city in one case (Cedar Rapids) and ends and starts up again in the middle of the other (Waterloo). I think it is a shame that the real continueity of those cities is obstructed by a freeway. I am glad that a freeway doesn't do the same in Green Bay. Despite whatever flaw we see in downtown Green Bay that a freeway doesn't go threw the city just to get to downtown.

Well, Ashland Ave. already carves through its path in the same way as a freeway, and already has the service roads in place, so I'd not be against making that a freeway as you wouldn't be ruining any urban fabric to do so. However, in a general sense, I agree. There's no need to be making a priority of freeway access directly to downtown. That's not to say that traffic flow into the downtown can't be improved, but Ashland Ave. excepted, a freeway isn't the way to go about it.

Puant

September 25th, 2007, 04:04 AM

^^ Yeah and Mason Street is really basically a freeway too even though most people don't rip through at 80 mph.

I agree that Appleton will be the location of choice for larger, "destination" type retail. At the same time, the places that care about the midway point factor tend to be the larger, national chain stores. These are not the places that typically want to be downtown, nor the type that make a place unique.

If we want the downtown to be vibrant, it will need to be so because of locally owned, unique businesses. These sorts of businesses are less concerned with the geography, and by people more like the people that Steve describes. These are also the type of unique places that make someone from outside the area stop by. Nobody going to Door County is going out of their way for a Chilil's, as they can find one at home, but they may stop down for a unique restaurant (say, in a historic, Chicago-style, 100-year-old building) that they can't get at home. And while they're there, they'll probably check out the boardwalk too.

You are right on, man. Right on!!:righton:

One more thing...
Okay, on the north is the retal lofts portion that's been designed by Stonehouse. That will have a residential entrance, some limited retail on the Washington St. and River sides (I think the rental office will take some of that) and the "live-work" units along Flatley Ct. The rental units will go up, I think, 7 more floors (8-story building).

Unless the pattern of use changes (which I don't really expect), the rest of the development will be like so: Along Washington St, starting from the south, will be the Children's Museum, then the ramp enterance, then lobby space for the commercial above. Above this will be parking, and the commercial space will be above that (the commercial could yet consist of either hotel or office, as far as I know). Along the river, the yellowish/brownish part will be stripped basically to its frame (I think) and will have retail, dining space on the first floor, and condo space above. As I understand, the condos were to be raw lofts, priced more in the mid-range (the number I heard was $140,000, but who knows). I don't know if this will stay with the raw-loft concept or not.

I'd like to know who will be filling the commercial & retail spaces. Has anyone announced yet? Have any specific tenants made thier intentions public? Or are the commercial spots being built purely out of speculation at this point? I'd like to see some of the former local businesses relocate back to downtown. Remember when the smaller buildings around the downtown had things like furniture stores, jewelers, electronics stores, drug store, bookstore, Anything like that would fit the RiverCenter setting if you ask me.

gbmphillips

September 29th, 2007, 05:18 AM

So da mayor said they can't have a shelter downtown because of the problems the people who used it were causing in that area, so what does this mental giant do, stick it once again to the people on the near west side, after all they don't have a lot of money to contribute to his relocation fund like those east side business do. We really need to get someone better to run against him next time who cares about the city not just his legacy.

GBSurveyor

September 30th, 2007, 03:01 PM

Danillo

October 1st, 2007, 06:52 PM

^^ Yeah, it's amazing how dramatically different things look when you see the pictures of the streets how they used to be. My whole life the Northland Hotel bldg. has been at the end of the street, so to see it in the middle looks odd (but nice).

GOTHxSLOTHx (Chi,TC)

October 2nd, 2007, 12:57 AM

i read on wikipedia that the amusement park in green bay just bought a lot of land next door to them and there was talks of adding a sweet roller coaster. is this still revelant?

Green Bay roots

October 2nd, 2007, 01:14 AM

This was on the wbay website over the weekend. nothing is certain yet.

Bay Beach May Be Getting a Facelift

Sep 30, 2007 06:20 PM

By Chris Duffy

In the years ahead, Bay Beach could undergo a major expansion project. It's something many people support and it won't cost the city a single dollar. It's a gathering spot for 100 year and a popular amusement park for 50. Bay Beach has stood the test of time.

Bay Beach manager Tina Westergaard said, "We hear that all the time from our customers, we came here as children, now we're bringing our grandchildren, and it's still as much fun as when they used to come."

At last week's parks committee meeting, an engineering firm presented three different ways the city could enhance the historical park.

Green Bay Alderman Jerry Wiezbiskie said, "We want to rejuvenate it and bring it back, some of the old, historic value of it back, and that's why we're doing it."

The plans include more amusement rides, more green-space, bigger parking lots, extending the railroad through the entire park, and a roller-coaster.

Many people who come out to Bay Beach come out to the water and ask, where's the beach?Well, part of the plan is to take out all of these weeds so that park-goers can have a better view of the bay.

"I think we're going to go back to the way it was in the old days, when it used to originally be a beach," Wiezbiskie said.

If you went to the park this year, you probably helped the cause. The proposed expansion will be fully-funded by ticket sales.

At next week's parks committee meeting, Green Bay aldermen will discuss the three plans.

"Throw it in the pot, grind it all up, maybe come up with just a fantastic concept," Wiezbiskie said.

He hopes a concept will be approved soon, so crews can start restoring a historic piece of Green Bay.

Puant

October 2nd, 2007, 02:24 AM

^^Cool pic, Surveyor. Glad you posted it here because I missed it in the community snapshots paper. Virtually unrecognizable as the same place today. Not that many of the buildings in this old photo were all that great-looking, but the area sure got much, much worse when these were torn down for the mall, the parking lots, and the dead-end street.

Bay Beach
A new roller coaster sure would be sweet, so would cleaning up the "beach".

Bay Beach, I've been told, was the first public beach in America to be closed due to pollution. That was what, 50 or 60 years ago now? How long until we can swim there again?

titletown

October 2nd, 2007, 05:40 AM

This beach is sad.... what were they thinking making that island offshore

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r3/GreenBayWI/BayBeach2.jpg

Don't you wish "Downtown" was on the bay as well as on the Fox River? I do

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r3/GreenBayWI/BayBeach.jpg

1905

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r3/GreenBayWI/BayBeach3.jpg

Do you recognize this location?

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r3/GreenBayWI/0412000507-l.jpg

mgk920

October 2nd, 2007, 06:06 PM

This beach is sad.... what were they thinking making that island offshore

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r3/GreenBayWI/BayBeach2.jpg

Don't you wish "Downtown" was on the bay as well as on the Fox River? I do

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r3/GreenBayWI/BayBeach.jpg
I also note how the beach sand is slowly reaching out to that island. Are there any plans for 'what next?' when the shifting sand turns it into a peninsula?

I do agree, though, it could have been placed elsewhere.

Mike

Bay2Bay

October 3rd, 2007, 01:35 AM

This video (link below) from the Press-Gazette contains some great old photos of Green Bay from the 20's thru the 60's.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070930/VIDEO0301/70929085

titletown

October 3rd, 2007, 02:11 AM

I had a chance to talk to Steve Seidl, here is what he said:

"We still are in need of at least 2 more commitments before ground breaking. To date, 4 of the 7 office floors are under a due diligence period and the 1st and 2nd floor are being retained by the Meyer Theater corp for their hospitality venues. If we can secure these last couple of prospects, we will be a go this winter. But, we still have work to do. "

Steve Seidl CCIM-SIOR

Puant

October 3rd, 2007, 04:32 AM

Did anyone catch this the other day, in the community news.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/10003.jpg

Its hard to imagine this, all I can seem to picture is the dead end street with the mall entrance.

Here's roughly the same view today
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/SSPX0415.jpg

Video
This (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070930/VIDEO0301/70929085)was great!!
UWGB professor Andrew Kersten says, (and I'm quite certain this is based on solid researched facts) regarding "runaways" is true: we don't really have a conducive business environment. The solution to keeping our best people is about a quality of living: If you're going to have a business here and grow it, what kinds of things are there for the people who work here and grow the business here to engage in the community? Make the town more service, education & entertainment-oriented and then you'll get the businesses. (I paraphrased this from the video). I agree with him completely And this is what we're trying to do with the downtown...get the amenities people want, whch for many poeple is a high-quality urban environment, something that fits a city this size.

Green Bay 4 Life

October 4th, 2007, 08:18 PM

Link to article in Marketplace Magazine about downtown development. Some interesting info on proposed timelines. I guess the most recent estimate on Astor and Grand Union...

http://marketplacemagazine.com/main.asp?SectionID=10&SubSectionID=10&ArticleID=284&TM=51506.95

Geography Teacher

October 4th, 2007, 10:18 PM

It's hard not to get excited by that article.:banana:

Every statement is like, "This WILL happen," or, "This WILL begin during this month." But we've heard pronouncements like this before.

It's great to see Astor Place still described as a 17-story building. We have been speculating whether a downsized project was in the works.

My fingers are still tightly crossed.

Danillo

October 4th, 2007, 10:51 PM

"It's going well now and the market continues to adapt, so we're ready to go," says Vetter.

If that's true... holy crap. :banana:

I've been thinking a lot about the downtown the past few days. Okay, I always think a lot about the downtown, but especially so the past few days. For the sake of argument, lets pretend that Astor Place doesn't get built for a moment. Even at that, look at what Vetter would have done. A new riverfront condo building, and the conversion of a large, abandoned blight into a new mixed use complex.

Then consider the climate for doing business in Green Bay. The loudest voice anyone hears who wants to develop here is that they, for the most part, aren't wanted. We have a "Wal-Mart complex" about how we run our city, always the lowest price... ALWAYS. Now, when running a goverment or buying consumer goods, the Wal-Mart price may oftne be the best value. At the same time, there are some things I'd never buy at Wal-Mart becuase even though it's the lowest price, it isn't the best value when you consider quality of/benefit from a more expensive purchase. But it seems too often this city can't see that, and just wants cheap 100% of the time.

So Vetter comes up with a visionary (by GB standards) plan to redevelop our riverfront, gives it to the city at no cost in exchange for the first crack at developing those sites, and the whole plan is structured so that the city will have to pay nothing from the general levy. Other cities gladly pay for ammenities such as the boardwalk becuase they know it will help economic growth, but here people want to derail it even though it won't cost the taxpayers a cent to build and comes (necessarily) with the new development attached.

AND STILL Vetter has to deal with all this extra crap to get it done becuase there's money being spent. Cripes, the biggest prblem that people have agianst Vetter is that he stands to make money off of this. GASP!!!! A developer comes and makes your downtown about 100 times better, but dares to profit in the process!!! HOW DARE HE!!! :gaah:

In the face of all this, the guy has still gotten one project completed, one under construction, and another that one way or another I feel good is going to happen. Give the man credit, becuase that's a lot of crap he had to wade through to get this done.

:rant:

Uhhhh.... sorry to have turned good news into such a rant... but I feel better now :) . GO DOWNTOWN GREEN BAY!!!!!!!!!

GBSurveyor

October 5th, 2007, 04:06 AM

I also noticed the other day that there now is a Miron construction trailor parked on site, I am assuming that is primarly for construction of the apartments. Now we just need to wait for the crane to arrive.

Anyone else curious about the big announcement tomorrow?

Green Bay roots

October 5th, 2007, 04:49 AM

big announcement? i didn't know there was going to be one

GBSurveyor

October 5th, 2007, 05:33 AM

I find the comments about Green Bay vs Appleton very interesting.

4) I am working on a growth technology business that is much bigger than the Bellin Building could accomodate. It will not be based out of Green Bay, but if cards are played correctly, it could have a significant impact on DT Green Bay. Watch for a press conference on October 5 and a high level national figure to be present.

I guess that it is a press conference...

hckystr42

October 5th, 2007, 08:56 PM

I think this is what Steve was talking about for his press conference.

http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=777989

sr22ger

October 5th, 2007, 09:15 PM

Video
This was great!!
UWGB professor Andrew Kersten says, (and I'm quite certain this is based on solid researched facts) regarding "runaways" is true: we don't really have a conducive business environment. The solution to keeping our best people is about a quality of living: If you're going to have a business here and grow it, what kinds of things are there for the people who work here and grow the business here to engage in the community? Make the town more service, education & entertainment-oriented and then you'll get the businesses. (I paraphrased this from the video). I agree with him completely And this is what we're trying to do with the downtown...get the amenities people want, whch for many poeple is a high-quality urban environment, something that fits a city this size.

Professor Kersten was one of my favorites at UWGB. I too loved this video. Interesting take on socioeconomics.

Link to article in Marketplace Magazine about downtown development. Some interesting info on proposed timelines. I guess the most recent estimate on Astor and Grand Union...

http://marketplacemagazine.com/main....84&TM=51506.95

Also a very cool read.
*Edit for not catching the post above me* Curious about this company being 'To big for the Bellin Building'...

Danillo

October 5th, 2007, 09:43 PM

I think this is what Steve was talking about for his press conference.

http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=777989

Yup, that's the one.

Green Bay 4 Life

October 5th, 2007, 11:02 PM

Interesting item on the 10/9/07 RDA Agenda:

2. Review and action on a proposed Planning Option Agreement with T. Wall Properties of Wisconsin LLC for mall redevelopment.

Recommendation: Approve Planning Option Agreement.

:banana:

Danillo

October 5th, 2007, 11:27 PM

^^ No dancing bananas until we know if it's a good proposal or not! :nono:

Here's their website (http://www.twallproperties.com/).

Time to call upon our Madison friends to find out what they think of properties these guys have worked on.

Given a very brief look at their website, it looks like thier "urban" projects are more pseudo-urban than actually urban. I'll have to try to get to that RDA meeting and see if they have ideas that fit into an existing urban environment.

Puant

October 6th, 2007, 05:47 AM

^^ I researched T. Wall online a bit. It is true that they have built mostly sprawl/fringe developments. However, they do seem to promote and have success building mixed-use, walkable, green/energy-efficient developments. I'd like to find out more about them and what they are planning for Green Bay's downtown mall..Maybe they would like to get more into downtown developments, who knows? THey promote walkable-mixed use developments, that's essentially what downtowns are all about. Anyway, Here are a few links I found:

City Centre West--New Urbanism development (http://www.buildings.com/articles/detail.aspx?contentID=2758)
Another City Center west description (http://www.twallproperties.com/index.asp?menuID=120&firstlevelmenuID=109)
Interview in the Ithsmus with Terrance Wall on why he built so much in the suburban fringe (http://www.thedailypage.com/isthmus/article.php?article=6134)

sr22ger

October 6th, 2007, 11:27 PM

hckystr42

October 6th, 2007, 11:53 PM

Thanks for those links Puant. I'm hoping though that the proposal is something along the lines of what you designed. Unless they really come up with something great I think what you designed would benefit that site the most.

Also, with that press conference that Steve from the Bellin Building. How exactly does this new company benefit downtown? Since the Bellin Building can't accommodate his new business would he be constructing a new building? I guess I just dont see how this is a potential benefit to our downtown.

mjotist

October 7th, 2007, 01:18 AM

The benefit to downtown is the fact that the Engineering and operations for the new company will be located downtown. ~200 employees (good paying jobs) downtown. Here's as excerpt from today's Press Gazette:

"Schneider said the company has 170 cell towers in place and should have 200 by the end of the year. They plan to have more than 600 in two years in Wisconsin, Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota and the Dakotas.

He said the company has 24 employees based in the Bellin Building, but could have 200 in two or three years. Engineering and operations will remain in the Bellin Building and customer service and corporate headquarters will be in Hilbert."

Danillo

October 7th, 2007, 04:07 PM

Wow, that last article is astounding. Did this dude have a change of heart on his surburbanism or does he see more potential in the mall than others do?

I didn't get the impression that he was anti-urban from that article, but rather that he's not too interested in wasting his time in an anti-business/anti-development environment. It's pretty hard to make the case that Madison is pro-business or pro-development.

By contraast, the Mayor is clearly pro-business and pro-development. Now, how this guy feels about things oce he starts wading into all the crap he'll have to wade into remains to be seen (though I'd guess he's waded into worse). He's going to be coming here to make a profit, and whether or not Green Bay benefits in the process, there are going to be people who take exception to his making a profit, and they will be vocal.

Puant

October 7th, 2007, 04:55 PM

Green Bay roots

October 7th, 2007, 07:27 PM

you know what though.....creative development is not leaser friendly. i know someone that owns a building on the strip north of nicolet bank on washington street and creative development was buying that whole strip and was leasing it back to the original owners for there business. the people i know refused to sell to them because they saw what creative was doing. they were making reasonable, or cheap lease agreements for the tenants but once the tenants started claiming some decent profits then creative development just raped the hell out of the tenants in the new leases and seeing how they own most of the property in the downtown area, they could because the tenants have nowhere else to go. i hope creative development does loss the property and they finally get ran out of town.

Danillo

October 8th, 2007, 04:50 PM

^^ I'm not very optimistic about the mall site. One proposal? And it's from a firm that doesn't like to work with obstructive governments? Plus this firm is another "golden-haired boy outsider"? Someone 'da mayor' likes? We don't stand a chance in getting the mall redeveloped.

Well, one would think that he's already worked with the city on what he's going to ropose, and that he'll have some idea as to what the council is like and such. Maybe he's coming with a very good plan, or maybe it's going to be a car-dependent, essentially suburban plan that has th epretense of being urban. We shall see. I guess we can hope for the best until we see otherwise.

I'm not 100% sure what the ownership of that site is, but I think one of the problems is that Baylake owns it now and will not want to be hanging onto property (understandably so). In an ideal world, I'd like to see the mall redeveloped after the riverfront, so it can play off of how the riverfront turns out. Actually, in an ideal world, the city would buy the land, clear it, parcel it out, and we'd actually have a real urban environment built up. It's hard to believe sometimes living here, but there are communities that actually do that sort of thing. Essentially, you'd be providing the TIF assistance ahead of time. But that won't happen, so I think that there isn't nearly as much flexibility with that site as I'd hope for.

Danillo

October 8th, 2007, 06:38 PM

Jason from the Madison thread passes along this link to a column by Terrance Wall (http://www.inbusinessmagazine.com/commentary.jsp?id=27984). A pretty encouraging read, I think.

Puant

October 9th, 2007, 05:01 AM

Parking

Does anyone know what is the City of Green Bay's current ordinance for Parking Spaces per office space?

Mall
I'll try to remain optimistic. Let's just hope T. Wall's plan is not half-assed.

Shauer & Schumacher plans in regards to Schwantes losing the property
I recall the 2 young guys who recently broke news on the plans to redevelop the corner of Walnut & N Adams (S&S building) had some rather ambitious start dates..Yet, I walk past this building every day and I haven't seen any activity yet...With the news of Shwantes (potentially) losing this property due to the foreclosure auction, is it a correct assumption that it is the reason for the delay? Actually I'm not even sure if Schwantes still owns this part (I know I saw the neighborhing 109 N Adams st on the auction list). Or did something else go wrong for these 2 brave young entrepenuers?

GBSurveyor

October 9th, 2007, 02:25 PM

Parking

Does anyone know what is the City of Green Bay's current ordinance for Parking Spaces per office space?

I know that Avissers would have that info...

With the mall being in the downtown zoning district there seems to be a lot more flexibilty and hopefully a lot less parking requirements. However most retail tenants WANT close parking.

Green Bay 4 Life

October 9th, 2007, 10:47 PM

From GBPG

Middleton developer gets option on old mall

By Richard Ryman

T. Wall Properties of Middleton today received a six-month planning option from the Green Bay Redevelopment Authority to determine whether it can redevelop the former Washington Commons mall in downtown Green Bay.

“We are looking for something that’s sustainable, that’s going to work long term,” Mayor Jim Schmitt said.

Washington Commons is owned by Baylake Bank, which acquired the property in January as a settlement in a three-party lawsuit between the bank, the city and the mall’s former owners, Development Associates.

City officials say the bank has agreed to sell the mall for $1 if a development plan can be worked out.

Sean Robbins, project manager for T. Wall Properties, said redeveloping the mall “is not a slam-dunk project, but there is significant opportunity to leverage off the riverfront projects.”

Robbins said the site would become a mixed-use office, retail and entertainment development. He also said the street grid would be returned to downtown as part of any project.

The planning option does not include the former J.C. Penney building. Schmitt said more news on that could be announced in December.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071009/GPG03/71009146/1978

Puant

October 13th, 2007, 06:38 PM

Story (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071013/GPG03/710130510/1978)and picture from the Press-Gazette today
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/Younkers-PrangesDemolition.jpg

Green Bay riverfront plans keep growing as building falls to pieces

Demolition makes way for new properties

By Richard Ryman
rryman@greenbaypressgazette.com

The Washington Street overpass is down and a path through the debris is visible at the site of the former Younkers department store on the east bank of the Fox River in downtown Green Bay.

As the riverfront redevelopment project edges nearer the end of demolition and the beginning of construction, it's drawing plenty of attention, some of it unwanted.

Green Bay Police say trespassing and thefts at the site have prompted the contractor to add extra security.

Green Bay Police Lt. Colleen Belongea said a man was recently arrested for allegedly stealing copper from the site.

"Typically, these demolition sites are an attraction for people. Their motive varies greatly across the scale," she said. Some are drawn out of curiosity; others are looking for items of interest.

More positive attention came this week from a Madison developer, T.Wall Properties, which received a planning option to redevelop the closed Washington Commons mall next to the riverfront site.

Sean Robbins, project manager for T.Wall, told the Redevelopment Authority Tuesday that his company would work to complement the efforts of riverfront developer Vetter Denk Architects.

"It's not just a site, it's a neighborhood," Robbins said.

The Younkers site will be home to the two-phase River Center development, which will include rental lofts, condominiums, retail and possibly office spaces. The first phase is valued at $23 million.

River Center will include 64 residential units and up to 70 raw-loft condominiums. It is scheduled for completion in the fall of 2008.

The rental lofts will be developed by Stone House Development of Madison. The Wisconsin Housing and Economic Development Authority awarded $7.5 million in tax credits to help finance the $10 million rental lofts project, which will set aside units for people with a low to moderate incomes.

The second phase, valued at $5 million to $17 million, depends on whether an office user signs on as a tenant.

The Children's Museum of Green Bay will buy part of the project for its new $2.2 million home. The museum plans a grand opening for fall 2008.

Vetter plans to build a 17-story mixed-use tower on the adjacent property to the north of the Younkers building called Astor Place.

Astor Place will have 90 condominiums, as well as office and retail tenants, and is scheduled for completion in the first part of 2009.

— Mike Hoeft/Press-Gazette contributed to this story.

mgk920

October 14th, 2007, 07:06 AM

I caught an item a few days on planned upgrades to Bay Beach Park, possibly to include that island.

Any thoughts?

Mike

Puant

October 17th, 2007, 03:32 AM

Well, my thoughts are pretty simple: I'd love to see Bay Beach expanded. If it's true that it attracts 1,000,000 visitors per year, then that warrants an expansion. It seems to be the "best use" for that vacant land to the west-northwest.

As for the Island--If the capped it, I'd feel safe walking on it and taking my kids on it. Could make a nice picnic area or something. Out with PBJ, in with PCB sandwiches.

So, what else is going on?

GBSurveyor

October 17th, 2007, 05:05 AM

It has been really slow here as of late. I haven't heard anything of any real interest. I noticed that the building at the NE corner of Dousman and Broadway is coming down.

I wonder why I don't recall hearing about the Bellin College of Nursing expansion earlier then this. It seems like this could maybe have been located some where downtown, like in part of the mall space? Now if they get their plans approved it will move to the old APAC builing in Allouez. I know that a college is not going to be a property tax generator, but it will help provide needed street life and add to a nice diverse mix of people in the downtown. Was the city ever in contact with the college? or does the college like the attraction of the ashpalt parking located out in Allouez?

GBSurveyor

October 17th, 2007, 05:41 AM

I caught an item a few days on planned upgrades to Bay Beach Park, possibly to include that island.

Any thoughts?

Mike

I would just like to make a few comments. I think that it is a fine place to bring the small kids to, it is very cheap. I would guess that over this summer we went there weekly and probably didn't spend more then $40 all year. I think that there are things that could be improved on. First, I know that this in not popular, but the amusement area should be fenced off. Charge a nominal fee to get in and you will solve many of the negative issues that surround the park, (loitering, profanity, smoking, to name a few). Next, try to market the area to outside investors, why couldn't there be a nice dining establishment along the bay? The city could sell a portion of the land and receive some property tax from that, location wise it is highly visible off of I43

Has anyone seen any of the proposed options for the area? I can't believe that in this digital era the city doesn't try to get more people involved or at least excited, there must have been a power point presentation, I would have liked to go to the open house, but I couldn't make it. So now all I can do is read the minutes and wonder what bad idea's our council is going to hatch up. I read some of the comments from the park committee minutes(link here (http://http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/mins_agd/minutes/20071009MN1597.html)). There is no way that anyone on the council (we all know how imaginative some are) should be making decisions about the future of the park with out the public being able to see some of the ideas, and being able to comment. If you really care take the time to read the minutes and please tell me that you are not worried. :rant:

Puant

October 17th, 2007, 06:17 AM

Surveyor, Thanks for posting that. I would have missed it otherwise. You're totally right---the city should put the concept images online somewhere.

IN reading the minutes, one thing that really concerned me is the obsession over parking. The whole first paragraph is parking, parking, parking. What about the amusement park plans besides the parking? What's going to bring people in besides a decent parking spot?

I hate to think that even our quaint amusement park will set up first and foremost around cars, parking, and all that. Is this the right approach? Am I making more out of this than I should? I understand the need for some parking, but why are they apparently fretting so much about everyone parking right up next to every ride!!:bash: People expect to walk in an amusement park, it's one place people are still OK about walking in. Especially since Bay Beach will only be open during the summer!! Disney knows this, heck, even Henry Ford knew this when he built Greenfield Village amusement park!! (there are no cars within or even that close to either of these) I just re-read the minutes, again, way too little on the actual amusement area could be gleaned from those, all I can vision is a lot of asphalt....:ohno: Hopefully I'll be less concerned once I see the plan graphic.

There does appear to be some other parts of this plan that seem good. I can't wait to see it...if I can wait 30-40 years.

Here's (http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/baybeach_nolanplan.jpg) the original 1921 Bay Beach plan by John Nolen, just for kicks. Not everything on this plan was actually built. The expansion area we're talking about is to the left (west - northwest) of this map, for those of you who might not know.

gbgoose

October 18th, 2007, 03:09 AM

The Stein restaurant to reopen in downtown Green Bay

By Nathan Phelps
nphelps@greenbaypressgazette.com

After spending several months away from The Stein, Steve Geurts said running that downtown restaurant is what he wants to do, so he'll reopen the doors sometime early next month.

“Being away from it for a while I realized this is what I want to do and this is where my passion is,” he said late this morning. “I got away from it for four of five months and every time I went back in there … I just missed it a little more each time.”

The downtown restaurant — established in 1961 — closed its doors at the end of April and was put up for sale, but Geurts said he eventually came to the decision he wanted to see it open.

“I’m sure there will be a lot of people that will come back, and I’m looking at getting some fresh clientele and some new people,” he said. “I just want people to come in and try it, and I think they’ll come back.”

Some improvements have been made to both the exterior and interior of the building and Geurts said much of the lure of the restaurant will be the same, but he also plans on “freshening” up the establishment as well.

The Reuben sandwich, a staple of the restaurant’s menu, also will return.

Plans to reopen are welcome news to Jeff Mirkes, executive director of Downtown Green Bay.

“We see this as being very significant because it was a business that was established downtown in 1961,” he said. “They’re going to focus on signature soups, specialty sandwiches and fresh breads.”

Mirkes said the reopening of the Stein is one of several restaurant openings planned for downtown Green Bay in the last quarter of 2007.

“This decision speaks to the confidence in the direction of downtown,” he said. “It’s a multi-faceted downtown and progress is not going to come from (just) one category.

“This type of business is what will draw our Green Bay citizens back to downtown Green Bay,” Mirkes said.

I assume the restaurant(s) in the Belling is part of what's coming in the last quarter. I'm curious of the "several" restaurants coming to Downtown. What else is coming in?

Bartles53

October 18th, 2007, 03:33 AM

Hmmm. Maybe he's referring to the S&S building although I seem to recall that it's not exactly a restaurant. BTW, when I came home a couple weeks ago for the Bear game (weak) I stopped at A'Bravo. I was thoroughly impressed. Cool atmosphere and great food. It's a downer that they pulled out of Astor Place. That kind of restaurant would be a draw for downtown and its personality would be a good fit. Maybe when AP finally goes up it'll make sense for them to add a second location overlooking the Fox River.

Speaking of Astor Place, it looks like they're stuck at a point where every unit with 2 bathrooms under $400k is reserved but just about everything else is up for grabs. They're having some trouble moving the 1 bathroom units and about everything over $400k. Is a reconfiguring of sorts in order?

The Bellin Building website has some new pictures. It's starting to come together.
http://www.bellinbuilding.com/renovation_october_2007.html

Good times.

Bay2Bay

October 18th, 2007, 03:38 AM

I assume the restaurant(s) in the Belling is part of what's coming in the last quarter. I'm curious of the "several" restaurants coming to Downtown. What else is coming in?

Now that the Stein is coming back bring back Kapps!

Fillmore

October 18th, 2007, 03:56 AM

AP is never going up...

Holmgren needs to return to Green Bay.

Puant

October 18th, 2007, 04:24 AM

the Stein would have been kind of slow during the Adams Street reconstruction that's been happening right in front of it over the last few months, anyway, so they had their little hiatus at a good time. Sure is great they're reopening!

DId anyone notice that Zeppelins inside the APAC/Baylake Food Court has shut down? That sure didn't last long...

Green Bay roots

October 18th, 2007, 12:23 PM

according to an e-mail i got from jeff mirkes, "What's up dowtown green bay" it stated that vincezes, which was suppose to take over the S&S Building will be in the former city center food court. i thought that was strange also. i didn't even know it had closed.

as for the belling college of nursing. wouldn't it be cool if they occupied the remaining space in the baylake building?

Danillo

October 18th, 2007, 04:15 PM

according to an e-mail i got from jeff mirkes, "What's up dowtown green bay" it stated that vincezes, which was suppose to take over the S&S Building will be in the former city center food court. i thought that was strange also. i didn't even know it had closed.

Yup. But then again, if you were looking to open a business, and the site you were looking at was on the list of properties to be auctioned off for the bank, what would you do?

titletown

October 19th, 2007, 05:04 AM

Maybe nothing to do with the closing of Zeppelins downtown... Great subs & poor service at the University Ave location and I mean poor...

GBSurveyor

October 19th, 2007, 05:47 AM

It should be intersting to see how this place does in the old City Centre Food Court. The location is better, but the building leaves much to be desired. The one time I went into the "food court" I was underwhelemed, maybe it reminded me too much of high school, and the service sucked. If you have great food and terrible service you are most certainly doomed.

With vincezes deciding to relocate to the CC, I really think it had more to do with the liquor license then anything else. Does anyone know if Washington Street is goint to re-open once the demo is done? I was getting hassled the other day for standing around taking pictures from the street. I guess downtown is not a public place to be, unless you hang out in the Library courtyard and smoke...

GBSurveyor

October 19th, 2007, 07:09 AM

AP is never going up...

Holmgren needs to return to Green Bay.

I sure hope the large cottonwood tree gets to stay then...

I think we are fine without Mike. He is much better off in Seattle...

Green Bay roots

October 19th, 2007, 12:37 PM

Vicenzi's among businesses looking to open downtown

Restaurants, coffee shops hope to open in coming months

By Richard Ryman
rryman@greenbaypressgazette.com

Downtown Green Bay is aflutter with the old, the new and the new but different.

The Stein restaurant is reopening on Adams Street, The Daily Buzz coffee shop and Quincy's restaurant soon will open in the Bellin Building, and Vicenzi's will take over the former City Center Café, which closed last Friday, instead of opening on East Walnut Street.

"Their facility is exactly what I'm looking for without having to re-create it. Everything is state of the art," said Vicenzi's owner John Solberg, who bought the cafe from owners Larry and Andrea Verheyden and Dean and Wendy Deprey. Smet Construction Co. owns the building.

Verheyden, who also owns five Hansen Dairy & Deli restaurants, said the downtown café was doing OK, but the sale was a good business opportunity for both parties. He said he wanted to concentrate on rebuilding the Hansen's business, including returning stores to De Pere and Appleton.

Vicenzi's will be a combined coffee café along the Seattle model, a sandwich shop and a high-end evening lounge.

Solberg said he hopes to open in three to six weeks.

He had planned on locating Vicenzi's in the former Schauer & Schumacher furniture building at the corner of East Walnut and Adams streets, but ran into a variety of obstacles that were overcome by switching to the cafe site.

Bellin Building additions

Greg DeCleene, an owner of Legends of De Pere, Caliente — La Fiesta Mexicana! and Black & Tan Grille, among others, is opening Quincy's restaurant and Bull & Bear Pub in November in the Bellin Building. The pub will be on the first floor and the restaurant on the second.

DeCleene said the establishments will target downtown's financial and theater district.

"We are trying to tie into the financial district we believe is there," DeCleene said. "The Meyer Theatre is doing nothing but getting better."

The menu will "be heavy on steak" and include chicken, seafood and pastas.

The restaurant, which will have northern and eastern views of downtown, also will offer private dining on the Bellin's ninth floor.

Also on the first floor, The Daily Buzz coffee shop, owned by Heather Conard, is expected to open around the end of October.

On Pine Street

Michael Schwantes, owner of several downtown buildings, including the Schauer and Schumacher site, has signed several new tenants for his building at 126 Pine St.

Tri-Star Lending Solutions, Timberland Power Co. and Pacco Broadcasting have joined Schwantes' Creative Business Brokers in the building across the street from the former Younkers department store.

Susan Vreeke is owner of Tri-Star Lending, which has four employees. Vreeke was a partner in Tri-Star Mortgage, which is still in business at 331 S. Adams St.

Vreeke said she is adding commercial lending to her residential and refinancing offerings, and has access to Hispanic and Hmong translators.

She plans on being licensed in Michigan as well.

The telephone number is (920) 435-5291.

Timberland Power Co. is redeveloping a steam generating station at the former KI Sawyer Air Force Base in Marquette, Mich. Timberland develops biomass, co-generating renewable energy.

The 100-megawatt facility at KI Sawyer will produce electricity and steam from waste wood, said Stu Harrison of Timberland. It will be one of the largest of its kind in the country, he said.

Timberland's headquarters will be in Marquette, but the Pine Street location will serve as the administrative office.

Pacco Broadcasting, owned by Mitch Lampert, is looking to develop a Spanish-language Internet and radio station, Schwantes said.

Schwantes said he also is talking to FetaZ Mediterranean Bistro about a possible expansion.

All great stuff. it's the little things that will really create a big stir.

Danillo

October 19th, 2007, 04:25 PM

Does anyone know if Washington Street is goint to re-open once the demo is done? I was getting hassled the other day for standing around taking pictures from the street. I guess downtown is not a public place to be, unless you hang out in the Library courtyard and smoke...

I'd presume so, to pedestrian traffic at the very least. That sucks about getting hassled. I was once down by the courthouse taking photos and some idiot driving by started yelling out the window at me to "Get a life." Which got me thinking, "hmmm... you have nothing better to do then drive around yelling at people, and I need to get a life?" I've also been yelled at on multiple occasions for daring to ride my bike down Walnut St.

He had planned on locating Vicenzi's in the former Schauer & Schumacher furniture building at the corner of East Walnut and Adams streets, but ran into a variety of obstacles that were overcome by switching to the cafe site.

That's interesting. I'm sure the liquor license, and the site up for auction would quality as obstacles to overcome!

gbmphillips

October 23rd, 2007, 04:11 AM

Green Bay 4 Life

October 23rd, 2007, 02:39 PM

What a surprise the worse mayor in Green Bay history is once again proclaiming himself as king and this time has decided that the groups that have done so much for Green Bay are on essential. This egomaniac has decided to withdraw $100,000 in cash support for Broadway Improvement District, Downtown Green Bay and Olde Main 2008. He already has his little lapdog Chad Fradette blocking On Broadway.

It's hard to believe that a city the size of Green Bay can't get a better person then EGO SCHMITT as mayor.

Then you should personally go before council, make your feelings known how you can solve issues such as rising healthcare costs, eliminate even more of a bare bones city staff, and pay for projects that are being demanded in each aldermanic district without raising taxes. Well, maybe you want taxes to be raised???

Geography Teacher

October 23rd, 2007, 03:48 PM

City Council scheduled to review pair of plans tonight

By Richard Ryman
rryman@greenbaypressgazette.com

Rip O'Dwanny, owner of St. Brendan's Inn in Green Bay, said he would not have come to the city had it not been for an effective recruiting effort that highlights the best elements of a public/private partnership.

"If not for Jeff (Mirkes) and his organization and (then-city economic development director) Peter Tillman, I would never have come to Green Bay," said O'Dwanny, owner of Harp & Eagle Ltd., which operates five Irish-themed inns in Wisconsin and Ireland.

O'Dwanny said he gets six to eight requests a year from communities wanting one of his inns.

"They built a pretty creditable list of reasons to locate an inn here," he said.

In addition to creating more than 50 jobs, O'Dwanny has since moved his headquarters to Green Bay.

Those public/private partnerships are experiencing some strain these days.

Green Bay City Council President Chad Fradette is blocking consideration of the Broadway Improvement District's plan and assessment for 2008. If the assessment is not approved by mid-December, it will not be included in 2008 tax collections. If it is not approved at all, the BID will have no money to continue its programs, such as the recently launched districtwide wireless Internet.

And the city is withdrawing $100,000 in cash support for all three business improvement districts.

Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt said the $100,000 will be used to hire an economic development specialist for the city's tax-increment finance districts.

"We are going to hire a full-time person that's going to focus their interest on tax-increment finance districts. We don't need all three of (the BIDs) chasing a Chili's," he said.

The City Council is scheduled to consider approval of the Downtown Green Bay and Olde Main 2008 assessments at tonight's meeting. The Broadway BID 2008 plan has been placed on hold by Fradette, who says the law requires them to provide an audit.

BID members say they give the city good value for its dollar.

"We are proud of the fact that we've returned $10 in private investment for each dollar received from the city," said Mirkes, executive director of Downtown Green Bay Inc. and Olde Main Street Inc.

Paul Van, owner of Quality Inn & Suites and president of the Downtown Green Bay BID board, said the hours Mirkes and On Broadway Director Naletta Burr put into events, even those not sponsored by their organizations, is not well known.

He said events hosted by the three districts draw 500,000 downtown annually.

Each of the BID districts contracts with a nonprofit organization to run programs. Those organizations — Downtown Green Bay Inc., Olde Main St. Inc. and On Broadway Inc. — also raise money through other sources, such as the events they sponsor and in-kind donations. Because its BID collections are much less than the others, On Broadway tends to have more alternate funding sources.

Mirkes said his district will work with the resources it has.

"We are hoping some of our events can fundraise better," said Molly Vandervest, special events coordinator and marketing and public relations specialist for the Downtown and Olde Main districts.

Patrick Quinn, president of Downtown Green Bay Inc., said the organization will work with local universities and technical schools on business recruitment and resources.

"We want to build BID revenues the way a downtown builds BID revenues, with new business," Van said. "But, we can't do it ourselves."

Mirkes stresses that the BIDs are not whining about city funding cuts.

"We recognize the mayor does value what we do," he said. "This has been a very good partnership."

Bartles53

October 23rd, 2007, 06:52 PM

Hey Danillo, you seem to have a relationship with Jeff Mirkes. Do you have the inside word as to what's going on here? Publicly he's saying all the right things but I'm sure things aren't so hunky-dory in private. What say you?

Danillo

October 23rd, 2007, 09:18 PM

^^ Whoa.. you're asking me to speak for someone else? I will say this: I have not heard Jeff say anything negative about this situation, the Mayor, or anything related.

On a positive note. Was that pilings being driven for River Center that I heard when I was downtown today? Sure looked and sounded like it!

Puant

October 24th, 2007, 05:25 AM

I can't speak for Jeff either, but FYI Here (http://packerland.googlepages.com/DowntownGreenBayIncBID.pdf)is some information on the value and purpose of a BID like Downtown Green Bay, Inc. Saying they exist simply to "chase Chili's" is an oversimplification, obviously. How would the mayor's proposed change affect the positive impact and progress demonstrated by the BIDs? I don't know, but to me it "ain't broke, so why fix it?"

And yes, I saw the pile driver today as well. Maybe when they're finished with the RC site they'll move it next door and drive the piles for AP??

On another note, this is from WBAY:

City Council Moves Ahead with Washington Commons Development

Oct 23, 2007 09:37 PM CDT

The Green Bay City Council approved a planning agreement for the vacant Washington Commons downtown.

A Madison developer would like to replace the old shopping mall with multi-story buildings with retail and office space.

The developer would also like to restore the downtown's street grid system.
_________________________________________
Meanwhile I have been hammering out a few more articles here:

Green Bay 4 Life

October 24th, 2007, 02:54 PM

They have actually been driving pilings for about a week now. I work downtown and have been hearing the solid "pings" for a while now.

Danillo

October 24th, 2007, 05:12 PM

^^ Music to my ears

gbmphillips

October 25th, 2007, 06:12 PM

I was looking at a list of pork in the new state budget and #17 on the list was

17.) $2.8 million – Grant for Fox River Boardwalk – City of Green Bay

I would have had it a little higher up the list.

hckystr42

October 26th, 2007, 12:47 AM

Puant

October 26th, 2007, 02:42 AM

Well, just down from Subway there's Erbert's & Gerbert's. That food is MADE for the inebriated:cheers:
How about a Taco Bell in that ramp? When I used to go out on the town and imbibe lots, Taco Bell was our favorite.
There used to be a McDonald's in the former mall food court at the end of Wash. Don't know why they pulled out, it always seemed busy to me. But whatever, no McDonalds is no loss to me.

Bay2Bay

October 26th, 2007, 03:10 AM

Here's a link you can find on the WBAY website from the team that is working on "branding" Greater Green Bay.

http://www.brandgreatergb.com/

GBSurveyor

October 26th, 2007, 05:25 AM

I don't know if this has been mentioned in here before, but when I was downtown last weekend I was quite hungry. My friends and I looked around and couldn't find any quick place to grab a bite to eat other than subway. Has there ever been any talk of a fast food restaurant or something like that going in somewhere in the downtown area. I'd imagine a McDonald's or something like that would do quite well on the ground floor of the Cherry St. Ramp. During the day it would have all the customers from those working down there and at night it would have all of the people out drinking stopping in for food. Any thoughts???

The old mall food court had a McDonalds and a Subarro and a Taco Bell all the way up to the point of the extension of Washington Street through the mall, by that time the mall traffic had probably diminished to the point where it was likely not profitable. I really don't see a Micky D's for a while but a Taco joint would seem to do OK. If you venture downtown now you may notice that during the week (days) there might be enough people to support some of these places, but the nights and the weekends would kill them. What needs to happen is a shift in the demographics, the trend over the last several decades was anyone that had money jumped ship to the outlying areas, which left the lower income people to populate the near downtown area, mostly in dilapidated carved up houses made into mulit-family units that people abandoned. I feel that the city is going about this in the right direction, by reducing the number of rental units, providing assistance for single family conversion and general investment in housing stock. I sometimes wish that this area wasn't always so far "behind the times" so to speak, local developers have been hampering this by creating cheap greenfield developments which draws many of the people further away from the core. I feel a rant coming on... but anyways more people=more services I think it all goes back to supply and demand. I feel downtown is heading in the right direction, I wish it could be a little faster, but if you think of a local comparison Appleton has a far superior Downtown, at least by appearance but still lacks the "fast food" places that have been mentioned.

another gripe I have is with Fradette, what is his problem with OnBroadway? Shit is actually happening there and he wants to disband the BID. If I recall the majority of the business want the damn tax, Whatever. What is his issues? does someone else know what is going on?

Yet another issue with the BID districts, I can't see how another government employee can replace 3 independant agencies that already exist. Can someone explain?

So I will end this useless jargon with basically no insight.

Oh yeh, Puant that Wilner building is quite a find, too bad that had to go.

sr22ger

October 30th, 2007, 04:40 PM

Posted October 30, 2007

City looks for sponsors to complete riverfront development

By Richard Ryman
rryman@greenbaypressgazette.com

Having gotten all that it requested from the state for a riverfront boardwalk, Green Bay is now looking forward to announcing private sponsors. And in the spring, the beginning of construction.

The state budget signed by Gov. Jim Doyle last week included $2.8 million for the project on the east bank of the Fox River, between East Walnut and Main streets.

"The next portion is private donations. That was a little contingent on this," Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt said Monday. "We have a lead gift in lawyers' hands right now."

The $12 million project will begin next spring and be complete in 2010. Half the cost will be provided by a tax increment finance district, $4.2 million by state and local funds and the rest by corporate donations.

Schmitt said the city got all it asked for from the state.

As the request bounced in and out of the budget, Schmitt admitted to anxious moments, but he said both Democrats and Republicans seemed to understand the importance of the appropriation to the region.

The three politicians present Monday backed him up:

"One thing that hasn't changed is the importance of a strong downtown. This is the city center and the center of our whole region," said state Sen. Dave Hansen, D-Green Bay.

"I truly believe we need a strong core in the city of Green Bay," said state Rep. Karl Van Roy, R-Howard.

"If we let the riverfront die … the city of Green Bay dies," said state Rep. Jim Soletski, D-Green Bay.

The 1,400-foot boardwalk, named The CityDeck, will extend up to 50 feet over the river between the Walnut and Main street bridges. It is envisioned as a public gathering place and as a site for downtown events.

The boardwalk is part of a larger riverfront redevelopment that includes Nicolet National Bank and Riverfront Lofts condominiums, already completed, River Center, a mixed-use commercial and residential building under construction, and Astor Place, a 17-story mixed commercial and residential tower under development. The whole project is scheduled for completion in 2009.

Schmitt said River Center and Astor Place projects are worth $80 million.

"Had (the state funding) not happened, I'm not sure this project would have taken off in the timeframe we would want," he said
><

Danillo

October 30th, 2007, 05:44 PM

^^ Good news, and this part:

"We have a lead gift in lawyers' hands right now."

is even better news.

Green Bay roots

October 30th, 2007, 07:10 PM

i thought that was an interesting comment myself, but what exactly does it mean??

sr22ger

October 30th, 2007, 07:45 PM

I missed that one myself, but I figured that just the fact that they have private donors already lined up for this, shows that there is indeed true interest in DT GB.

Puant

November 5th, 2007, 06:22 AM

I just read these compiled Press-Gazette articles (http://www.loftsontheriver.com/htm/news.htm) from 2004 regarding the downtown developments. Thought you might find these fun to read in the context of what is happening now.

Danillo

November 7th, 2007, 09:35 PM

From DGBI's What's Up Downtown:

Major City Deck Announcement Planned for Thursday Morning-

Downtown Enthusiasts are invited to Join Mayor Schmitt and Green Bay Business Leaders for the announcement of a significant financial contribution by a local company for the construction of The City Deck- Please join us Thursday, Nov. 8th at 9:30 a.m. along the riverfront near the former Younkers site. To check out The City Deck details -

http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/boardwalk/index.html

Puant

November 8th, 2007, 05:44 AM

The Daily Buzz and Quincy's restaurant will soon be opening in the Bellin Building. Here's a sneak-peek at the grand staircase on the first floor.http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/Daily-Buzz.jpg

hckystr42

November 8th, 2007, 02:02 PM

Thanks for the picture Puant. It looks great inside. Lets hope the food is decent. Also, does anyone know if they have a date set yet for the opening of the coffee shop and restaurant?

Geography Teacher

November 8th, 2007, 06:58 PM

ShopKo announces CityDeck sponsorship

The Shopko Foundation is the first local company to sponsor The CityDeck.

Officials announced the sponsor at a 9:30 a.m. press conference.

The scenic overlook area of the boardwalk, which will be built next summer, will be called Shopko Landing.

The CityDeck will be built in phases as development along the riverfront continues.

Total construction value along with the construction value along the riverfront and mall area is expected to exceed more than $90 million over the next three years, according to the city of Green Bay.

With two other areas of the boardwalk to be named, The CityDeck will soon have enough money to speed up construction of the phases, according to a city of Green Bay press release.

Geography Teacher

November 8th, 2007, 07:03 PM

There's an article on the Washington Commons proposal in the P-G today. It's long-ish so I'll post the link:

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071108/GPG0101/711080567/1978

There's a comment in the article I don't understand, however:

"You're not going to get a very large high rise, because, with the riverbed being as close as it is, I think the soil will prevent us from going very high, but we're not talking just two stories," (project manager Sean) Robbins said. "It will fit in well with the city horizon."

Does this make any sense? Or is it just hogwash to dampen our expectations? Astor Place and River Center are multistory projects (17 for AP!) and I have never once heard anything about soil concerns.

GBSurveyor

November 8th, 2007, 08:17 PM

There's a comment in the article I don't understand, however:

Does this make any sense? Or is it just hogwash to dampen our expectations? Astor Place and River Center are multistory projects (17 for AP!) and I have never once heard anything about soil concerns.

My thought is that sure it can be taller, but that substantially adds to the cost. Caissons are expensive to install and you really dont get much immediate return on the investment. I think that with minimal reinforcement you could build a 3 or 4 story building and still add to the downtown density and street life. With AP being on the river it would make more sense to go taller there (if demand is warranted).

I personally would like to see any sort of activation to the commons property, not that I want a bunch of cheap shit built up. What worries me is that someone is going to come in and drop down a suburban style building and the council will cave to get some property back on the tax rolls.

It is unfortunate that the parking ramp fronts Main Street and obstructs the view to the KI center.

Green Bay roots

November 8th, 2007, 09:25 PM

if you ask me....that ramp needs to go just for the fact that it is set in an akward way and only works for the set up that is currently in place. i sure hope that the developers also see that.

MJinOshkosh

November 8th, 2007, 10:28 PM

There's an article on the Washington Commons proposal in the P-G today. It's long-ish so I'll post the link:

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071108/GPG0101/711080567/1978

There's a comment in the article I don't understand, however:

Does this make any sense? Or is it just hogwash to dampen our expectations? Astor Place and River Center are multistory projects (17 for AP!) and I have never once heard anything about soil concerns.

Maybe he was talking in comparison with other cities of comparable size to Green Bay. I don't think Green Bay will see a 400 foot building. On the other hand something in the range of 250 feet to 350 feet for a tower in a city the size of Green Bay to me wouldn't be out of the question.

Geography Teacher

November 9th, 2007, 12:10 AM

1) I realize that GB cannot support tall buildings yet (heck, who knows if AP or even Grand Union get off the ground). But I had never heard that the soil structure in the area was a concern.

2) As to the parking ramp blocking Main from the rest of downtown, haven't some of us suggested that Adams Street could go through the ramp? It would still be a visual and even perceptual barrier but at least there would be access.

3) I struggle with what should go on the Washington Commons property as well. You would love to see anything, especially since we haven't been fully satisfied with the pace of the other projects. But I recall the same conflict when the dental building at Main and Madison went up several years ago. Many people called it a prime location and wanted to hold out for a bigger project, but many others wanted something -- anything -- to go in. When the developer stated that the building would be built in a way that additional floors could be added on, some of the opponents relented. I don't ever expect to see that building increased in height.:nuts:

hckystr42

November 9th, 2007, 01:14 AM

I'm still doubtful that T-wall will provide us with a good development plan for the mall site, however in terms of size the quote says it will fit in well with the current city horizon. This leads me to believe that whatever is put there will fall between 6-10 stories tall.

As far as not really having a good idea what should go there, office, condo's etc. As of right now all of the places to live downtown, you will have Astor Place, those few condos by the Bellin Building and then all the remaining units are for the elderly, disabled, or low income. How about finally putting in some more housing that will attract 20-30 year olds that they can afford. 100-200k. Most of the people i know in that age group, myself included, would enjoy a place in the city that we wouldn't have to constantly be working on (mowing the lawn, etc)

As far as what you said Geography Teacher- I don't see the mayor allowing some suburban development with nothing but parking lots to be dropped in the center of our downtown. The one thing the mayor really does that I like about him is the fact that he thinks big. Large buildings and not small things you can find in the suburbs or an industrial park. With thinking big though, is there a height requirement on the mall site like there is on site 4?

Puant

November 9th, 2007, 06:49 AM

Building heights
Consider that most city's downtowns are next to rivers or other water bodies where caissons and deep pilings are needed so it's certainly doable.

Another 'downtown' area in need of redevelopment
I had another whacky idea while walking through down South Adams Street amongst the insignificant little 1-story buildings surrounded by vast expanses of asphalt parking lots (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=rdjjpw7nys9g&style=o&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15772895&encType=1)...

Would there be any possibility in enticing these "near-downtown" businesses to move a bit north into whatever gets built on the mall site? All of this ugly asphalt wasteland could then be built up with residential developments surrounding the one little island of nice which is the Captain's Walk Winery. These residential areas could be both single-family and higher density, mixed use and all of that. If this area was cleared of much of its asphalt, and relandscaped with some plants and trees, it really could be attractive again, particularly due to its central location, proximity to downtown and the waterfront, Astor District, etc. I really think this part of the city is disgusting right now, change would be welcome.

Green Bay 4 Life

November 10th, 2007, 08:54 PM

With thinking big though, is there a height requirement on the mall site like there is on site 4?

The mall site is currently zoned C1. The max height requirement in that district is 35'. However, there is a proposal in place to rezone that to D2 as well as much of the downtown which does not have a maximum height requirement. Site 4, Astor, River Center, Grand Union, and some other sites in the downtown already have that zoning designation. Let's hope that goes through.

I guess a little rant for me. I'm not sold on the design plans for River Center still. What most were originally sold on with the grand front porch to the river and the development has turned into (from the rendering provided) to something less than spectacular. Why is Green Bay so against demanding iconic buildings. Not in the sense of being the tallest or the most elaborate, but something along the lines of at the very leasy having some lasting qualities. Architecture is so very bland here. I was excited to see the Grand Union renderings, but rumors presist that they may knock it down a couple floors. What? Well, that will give the building less of an impact at such an important corner. How many buildings have gone up like Johnson Bank and Nicolet Bank that are close or full occupancy and now they probably wish they would have added an extra story or two to allow for more occupiable space? I think it would be a travesty to see this building at 4 or 6 stories. Same with Site 4. The pledge was to have this the tallest building in Green Bay. Then the article a while back said, well maybe 10 stories. I mean do we want to make a statement or just take what we can get? The City has lived without development on these important sites for so long that holding out a while longer so that we can truly get an impact project may not be so bad at all. (not that anything is going on with Site 4 anyway - that dropped off the face of the earth).

As far as Astor. Whatever. I mean how many years are we going on without some sort of construction on that site? Keeps getting pushed back, false dates of starting, etc. The road was straightened for that project. If I was the City I would start charging Vetter a penalty for each month nothing happens. This project started or was proposed prior to the housing market slump. So I see no excuse except those on the development and sales sides. The City has lived up to their bargain with getting the road ready, utilities moved, and donations/money for the boardwalk - now it is truly Vetter's turn to answer the bell. What would be the possibility of revamping it for more moderate level units which seem to sell the best?

I don't know, as winter sets in and another year ticks by with empty promises still ringing in everyone's ears about the turning point of downtown, we really need to start seeing something or it will be only a matter of time before downtown continues in its stagnent ways with a smattering of projects that can be coined somewhat successful but somewhat unurban.

Danillo

November 11th, 2007, 09:28 PM

A few thoughts:

I'm not sold on the design plans for River Center still. What most were originally sold on with the grand front porch to the river and the development has turned into (from the rendering provided) to something less than spectacular.

Have you seen final plans for River Center? Except for the rental lofts portion, I haven't. There's the rendering on the banner along the river, but that doesn't reflect what the design will come out like. So maybe I've missed something, but I have no idea what that is going to look like to comment on it one way or another.

I was excited to see the Grand Union renderings, but rumors presist that they may knock it down a couple floors. What? Well, that will give the building less of an impact at such an important corner. How many buildings have gone up like Johnson Bank and Nicolet Bank that are close or full occupancy and now they probably wish they would have added an extra story or two to allow for more occupiable space? I think it would be a travesty to see this building at 4 or 6 stories.

Well, rumors are rumors. But let's say that it does get cut down to 6 floors. If that's what it takes to get this done and put the Meyer Theater on more sound financial footing, then I'm all for it. There's more at stake here than just the height of one property, and while we all want the best building possible, we can't just snap our fingers and make people buy things. If this has the right uses, activates that corner, and can help out the Meyer, then that's just a huge success all around.

As far as Astor. Whatever. I mean how many years are we going on without some sort of construction on that site? Keeps getting pushed back, false dates of starting, etc. The road was straightened for that project. If I was the City I would start charging Vetter a penalty for each month nothing happens. This project started or was proposed prior to the housing market slump. So I see no excuse except those on the development and sales sides. The City has lived up to their bargain with getting the road ready, utilities moved, and donations/money for the boardwalk - now it is truly Vetter's turn to answer the bell. What would be the possibility of revamping it for more moderate level units which seem to sell the best?

Vetter is responsible for the road straightening costs, but it doesn't do the city any good to be calling him out on that now.

Look, I understand the frustration, but who said any of this was going to be easy? It's not as though there's a long line of developers knocking down the door to build 20 story buildings. Now, that's not an excuse to do a bad project, but it does mean that we have to keep our expectations reasonable. I'd rather have devlopers come with the biggest plans they can do, then have to scale back if the market won't support that. I mean, when that happens it's damn frustrating becuase you know what you "could have had." But that's still better than just starting off in the middle and being content with that.

This process isn't just about building buildings, that's the easy part. IT's about making a vibrant place, and more than that, it's about changing the culture of how our downtown is viewed. That is going to take a long time, there will be setbacks and delays, projects will fall through, but there needs to be a committed group of people who keep their eyes on the prize through it all. That's us.

titletown

November 12th, 2007, 07:17 AM

I don't know. It is kinda hard to be positive when we have been waiting almost 3 years for something to happen. I believe it when I see it. :down:

Green Bay 4 Life

November 12th, 2007, 09:59 PM

A few thoughts:

Have you seen final plans for River Center? Except for the rental lofts portion, I haven't. There's the rendering on the banner along the river, but that doesn't reflect what the design will come out like. So maybe I've missed something, but I have no idea what that is going to look like to comment on it one way or another.

I didn’t say I have either. My point was when you look at the original design there was a grand entrance or front porch leading out to the boardwalk that spewed vitality and an area where people could congregate. Anything from a potential area for the holiday tree lighting, to an ice skating rink, to things of that nature. Yes, the City Deck will have these areas but not on the same scale. The current renderings (whether the final or not) have taken that away and now the first floor looks like your typical strip mall with glass windows and doors that you would find along Oneida Street. That to me is not exactly “vibrant”. I have a feeling, and it has more foundation than just my gut feeling, that what you see on that banner is more or less (save a minor change or two here and there) what is going to be unveiled soon enough… Besides, what information is out there that they will change them from what is shown on the banner?

Well, rumors are rumors. But let's say that it does get cut down to 6 floors. If that's what it takes to get this done and put the Meyer Theater on more sound financial footing, then I'm all for it. There's more at stake here than just the height of one property, and while we all want the best building possible, we can't just snap our fingers and make people buy things. If this has the right uses, activates that corner, and can help out the Meyer, then that's just a huge success all around.

Again, my point was not meant to say, “We just need a tall building here”. I understand fully the development field and I know tall buildings alone do not make a city or a downtown a place people want to visit. An empty building does not create the “vibrant” area that any downtown would want to build off of. There are hard facts out there regarding the occupancy of downtown Class “A” office buildings. This is an important corner. I don’t think having some expectations, as a City on what this corner should look like at a minimum is too much to ask. I am not against the Meyer. Yes, I want them to continue to add more diverse shows and continue to be successful, but they have a real opportunity here. If it isn’t the right time, it isn’t the right time. In addition, what I was trying to say is maybe take the extra time to let interest peak because with some movement downtown, there possibly would be that need for additional space. Hopefully that is what they are doing. But rumors in Green Bay tend to lead to truth. At least that is what has been typical. And unfortunately, this City has not turned the corner from typical.

Vetter is responsible for the road straightening costs, but it doesn't do the city any good to be calling him out on that now.

Why not? I guess when developers know they can hold a city hostage, what do they have to lose. Promise them somethinga nd they will wait forever. We need to lose that stigma, because it is alive and well in this area, big time. He signed an agreement indicating he was going to start at a certain time. He’s failed time and time again to meet that expectation. Sooner or later you get evicted if you don’t pay your rent or get fired if you are supposed to show up at work at 8:00 but show up three years later. I don’t think a penalty is out of the question. Maybe that would press this issue a little closer and get it moving again. He controls the waterfront basically. Site 4 has been locked up how long now? Over a year at least and that is all the time he had to get something back to the City. As far as I know, nothing has happened. We should not be afraid to open it back up and say, you had your chance, now let’s even the playing field again. This guy has done ONE building, and an ugly building at that. He is not in my estimation the savior as of yet. Only time will tell, but time is what is passing everyday. I know he can’t control the market, but as a developer, like you said you have to adjust to the market or try something different. I’m not saying kick him out, I think somebody just really needs to start asking the hard questions, whether it be the city, media, or whomever that gets this out in the open and people talking about it. Because it seems we truly have lost a lot of the attention on these projects. And that can lead to the “momentum’ everyone talks about grinding to a halt and all the people that have so far invested and been sold on the “future” of downtown Green Bay to only leave and have another black eye for years to come.

Look, I understand the frustration, but who said any of this was going to be easy? It's not as though there's a long line of developers knocking down the door to build 20 story buildings. Now, that's not an excuse to do a bad project, but it does mean that we have to keep our expectations reasonable. I'd rather have devlopers come with the biggest plans they can do, then have to scale back if the market won't support that. I mean, when that happens it's damn frustrating becuase you know what you "could have had." But that's still better than just starting off in the middle and being content with that.

This process isn't just about building buildings, that's the easy part. IT's about making a vibrant place, and more than that, it's about changing the culture of how our downtown is viewed. That is going to take a long time, there will be setbacks and delays, projects will fall through, but there needs to be a committed group of people who keep their eyes on the prize through it all. That's us.

I think I am keeping my eye on the prize, as we all are. It is nice to sit around the campfire and roast smores, but that isn’t my cup of tea. I have the different viewpoint that that is keeping hope alive in my heart, but in my head thinking that maybe the reason we are where we are and the view of downtown is what it is, is because we do need to change the way of thinking and doing things at all levels. Demanding better more consistent builders who stick to the plan. Pushing the envelope in a good way in terms of architecture. We need risk takers. We need people that are willing to hold others feet to the fire. I hate to be a pessimist, but I haven’t been proven wrong yet. Although, I hope I can be. I truly do.

I don’t want o be all gloom and doom, but I am entitled to my opinion, as are you. And I’m glad that there is someone to be a ying for my yang. I am sure that everyone has their own, some who don’t differ and some who do. I really am for downtown and the plans that I have seen at one time or another have really impressed me, but then they change. That’s like here’s a nice new Ferrari for you and then oh, you were willing to accept the Yugo right?

MJinOshkosh

November 12th, 2007, 11:33 PM

I am happy to hear that there is something on paper at least that some type of up scale development is in the works for downtown Green Bay. But to me living here in Oshkosh (who's downtown is also in a state of disrepair) Green Bay isn't alone in the state of Wisconsin where the cities downtown area isn't where it should be. I read this thread with the hopes that other Wisconsin cities wake up their downtown areas too. I am not going to list off all the areas that need improvement because if anyone does travel around the general area know what cities need to improve their downtown areas with those that have a start. Green bay has a start and that is good. Others haven't and need to think of the consequences if they don't start putting some sort of downtown plan in place.

Good luck to Green Bay I hope some of the proposals get built and I hope that when other close by cities in Wisconsin see what can be done in Green Bay will follow suit. There is a lot at steak as to what happens with these Green Bay developments for when the so called downtown mall was all the rage Green bay was one of the first to build one and many other communities followed Green Bay's lead and built one for their community.

Danillo

November 13th, 2007, 03:45 AM

GB 4 Life, Here's where I'm a bit confused with your line of thinking, and I'm sure you can explain this. One one hand, at the Grand Union site, you say they should sit tight and not be in a hurry to make sure the project gets done right, but then you want to force Vetter's hand on Astor Place to get that going now (or let someone else try, as if there is someone else). Now admittedly, Astor Place has had longer to try than Grand Union, but at the same time, if the best plan is to wait for the best result, then it seems the line of thinking should apply to both sites.

As for Site 4, I can't see anyone being able to do something there right now that's worthy of the site. If Grand Union is having a hard time to fill their space at a lower rate, it's going to be really hard to fill more space at a higher rate at site 4. Remember, the class A space that has filled recently has all been built by the primary tenant and financier (Nicolet Bank, Johnson Bank). A project like Grand Union, while I believe it's feasible, has a lot more uncertainly surrounding it and has to sell space in order to get financing. That's tough, and even tougher for a substancially larger project on site 4.

Regarding Vetter, sure, he's not a savior, he's a developer. At the same time, he's completed one project and has another underway. And this second project is one that was a real tough one to put together. So that's two projects, and while not exactly a revolution in and of themselves, I haven't seen to many other developers doing more. About the design of River Center, well first, I actually kind of like the rendering along the river. But aside from that, Vetter told me himself that that rendering has nothing to do with what the final design will look like, that they were starting over with the design, that it won't look anything like the current building (which I am a bit sad about), and that (I think) HGA of will be designing the building. That's a pretty good firm. So while any of this could change, that's the last I heard straight from the horse's mouth, and so I have really no idea what the final design will look like. To be fair though, I also am unhappy that the winter garden type entrance has been removed, which is quite a loss for that plan if something comparable isn't in the final plan.

Puant

November 13th, 2007, 03:57 AM

If the downtown was farther along, in more demand, etc, then yeah the city could "hold a developer's feet to the fire". But as it is, I think the city needs to tread carefully here. How many developers have already tried and failed? How many have been scared away due to unreasonable demands by the city? Quite a few, I recall.

The most recent developers are taking on a big challenge, trying to deal with everything from skeptical buyers to a fickle market. As such I'm willing to cut them a little slack for now, particulaly since they are showing some actual progress.

On a side note: What are the pros and cons to the developer and/or the city putting their decision-making process out there in public? What would it hurt if they posted an open dialog on the design considerations? Why isn't there a River Center web site which could put plans and stuff out there for all of us to see? For example, why not put the information out there such as, "Or original concept had a front porch design like this (http://picasaweb.google.com/gBayPacker/Plans/photo#5074473316146976402), but after considering yada yada yada and such-and such, the plans were changed to do this (http://picasaweb.google.com/gBayPacker/Plans/photo#5008933407855295058)instead.

GBSurveyor

November 13th, 2007, 08:50 AM

I don't really have much to add, but think that all indicators are pointing the right direction. It seems though that winter is about to set in and we will have to wait another 6 months to see some additional construction commence. Oh Well... A huge chuck of "uglyness" has been removed so there has been some progress. It will be intersting to see how the RC plans pan out, I think I recall the childrens museum (http://www.gbchildrensmuseum.org/) opening fall of 2008, that means construction of that building must start soon.

I also heard the other day that there is (was?) a party intersted in looking at site 4 in more detail, don't know any details or who that may be, but it was intersting none the less.

I really believe that the city is working hard to get stuff moving along, we really dont get to see all the "behind the scenes" meetings and proposals that are flying around, I know stuff is out there and it never gets mentioned or ever comes to fruition, but talk is there, and maybe it is all just talk. I think for anyone to be confidant enough now to spend $ to build something that they have been trying to get off the ground for 3 years is a very high risk. The US economy is not exactally in the best condition.

Danillo

November 13th, 2007, 04:33 PM

On a side note: What are the pros and cons to the developer and/or the city putting their decision-making process out there in public? What would it hurt if they posted an open dialog on the design considerations? Why isn't there a River Center web site which could put plans and stuff out there for all of us to see? For example, why not put the information out there such as, "Or original concept had a front porch design like this (http://picasaweb.google.com/gBayPacker/Plans/photo#5074473316146976402), but after considering yada yada yada and such-and such, the plans were changed to do this (http://picasaweb.google.com/gBayPacker/Plans/photo#5008933407855295058)instead.

I think there should be, in theory, a bit more made public. The downside of that is that too many people can then play armchair architect, and anything innovative would be likely to be scoffed at. However, I think one mistake the city made with River Center was turning the site over to Vetter without first seeing the final plans. Now it's Vetter's site, and he can pretty much do with it as he pleases, so long as he meets his end of the developer's agreement. But as for how it ends up looking, the city and public really have no say anymore. So on the one hand that gives the architect more freedom, but on the other hand if their design sucks, well, tough crap for us. I guess the market can influence the design some by buying or not buying units.

Bartles53

November 13th, 2007, 08:08 PM

Some solid news for downtown Green Bay

Posted November 13, 2007

Stein reopens; more new downtown restaurants on way

Press-Gazette

Green Bay’s downtown is seeing a burst of new -- and classic -- eateries opening their doors.

The Stein, 126 S. Adams St., recently reopened after being closed for a good part of the year and the Daily Buzz coffee shop is scheduled to open Thursday in the Bellin Building, 130 E. Walnut St., according to Downtown Green Bay Inc., a nonprofit organization that promotes business development in the downtown area.

The Bellin Building is also expecting the Bull & Bear Pub and Quincy’s to open in during the first week of December on the first and second levels of the building.

Green Bay 4 Life

November 14th, 2007, 09:16 PM

Green Bay roots

November 15th, 2007, 03:55 AM

you know, i would love to see some new pictures if anyone has the time this weekend. sounds like a lot of things have been going on at river center since the last time someone had posted picts back in sept. also, i must congratulate the city of green bay. from what it sounds like is that the city has gotten just about all the donors for the city deck already and plan to be finished with all the financial recruiting before the project even gets underway. Green Bay maybe turning around to be more progressive after all

Danillo

November 15th, 2007, 07:12 PM

The City expected development to occur within a certain period of time. That hasn't happened. therefore, there you do.

I know Vetter has publicly said a number of start dates which, frustratingly, have come and gone without construction starting. However, is there a time line in the developers agreement that has passed? I'm not saying there isn't, but I don't remember hearing about it (it would seem that the time line must exist), what that time line would be, and if it has passed or not. I really have no idea what Vetter and the city have legally agreed to regarding the timing of the project.

from what it sounds like is that the city has gotten just about all the donors for the city deck already and plan to be finished with all the financial recruiting before the project even gets underway. Green Bay maybe turning around to be more progressive after all

Well, I don't know that they have all the donors lined up quite yet, but there certainly seems to be progress being made. I get the impression that the business community is quite a bit more progressive about this than a large portion of the population is. I think businesses, particularly large employers, see what this will do for the region, and what it will do for their ability to recruit and keep employees.

It's similar to what happened with the state budget regarding the university system. The "conservative" portion of the legislature wanted to greatly restrict the university system on the grounds that the so-called "tax-hell" in Wisconsin (a term which in and of itself is a gross oversimplification of reality) is hurting business. By contrast, at least locally, the business community has been a very strong supporter of the university and the effort for the growth agenda. So you have a portion of the legislature that is against the university on a supposed pro-business platform when in reality that business community, at least locally, is supporting the growth of the university. This realty, and the expression of it by many here in NE Wisconsin, has a lot to do with why the system was in the end supported in the budget passed.

Similarly, here with the boardwalk, there's a vocal group that opposes the boardwalk becuase it, shockingly, costs money. But good business people know value, and when you consider the structure set up to pay for this project and the impact downtown redevelopment can have on the economy here, it's no surprise that the business community would not only support the boardwalk, but as was the case with ShopKo, put their money behind the effort. It's good PR and it's good for their own operation. The people opposed to this plan generally have put their own rhetoric before any reality about the project represents or how it is being handled.

Is Green Bay become more progressive? Maybe. Sadly there's a large portion of the population that is receptive to the anti-development rhetoric (to be fair, this is the same population of people that has done a lot of good in this community as well). But the good news is that a larger portion of the population has continually seen the value here, and the efforts have been supported. The regressives have probably been louder, but the progressives seem to be winning the day.

gbmphillips

November 15th, 2007, 08:33 PM

I know Vetter has publicly said a number of start dates which, frustratingly, have come and gone without construction starting. However, is there a time line in the developers agreement that has passed? He got what he wanted, the $12,000,000 Schmitt Folley, if I remember that was a NECESSITY in order for him to do HIS projects.
the so-called "tax-hell" in Wisconsin (a term which in and of itself is a gross oversimplification of reality) is hurting business.if ever a understatement that is it. We have passed hell a long time ago.

Is Green Bay become more progressive? The buzzword progressive, which really means more government programs forcing the middle class to fund with more taxes.

Danillo

November 15th, 2007, 10:51 PM

He got what he wanted, the $12,000,000 Schmitt Folley, if I remember that was a NECESSITY in order for him to do HIS projects.
if ever a understatement that is it. We have passed hell a long time ago.

The buzzword progressive, which really means more government programs forcing the middle class to fund with more taxes.

Hey GBM, thanks for proving my points better than I even could have myself. The criticism of the boardwalk is nothing but rhetoric for rhetoric's sake. It's the kind of regressive nonsense that keeps communities from growing. Yes, the boardwalk has a cost (SHOCK!!!! Things aren't free!!!), but you know where those costs are coming from. There's also nothing in comments like yours about growth, jobs, quality of life, etc. Just empty rhetoric, which seems to be the best that boardwalk opponents can do... regressive nonsense. When a company like ShopKo puts down $250,000 to endorse this, that says a lot more to me about what employers think the value of this is.

As for the tax hell idea, any nuanced look at state government (taking into account taxes AND fees versus quality of services provided) shows that Wisconsin is doing quite well, thank you. People who focus only on one measure while ignoring how that exists in a broader context seek only to promote a regressive agenda and to gain support from those who don't care to actually take the time to understand that reality can't be broken down into one stat.

Puant

November 16th, 2007, 04:20 AM

Hey GBM, did you know you could move to Alaska and not pay any property taxes? (at least, as long as you stay out of the cities). Maybe you should move up there and get away from this hell you call Wisconsin.

Washington Street is a through street again!
The rubble is gone, I drove through Washington Street today where the underpass used to be. What really struck me as I drove through here is that something really MAJOR is finally happening downtown. I mean, 5 years ago this would have been a pipe dream. For as slow as progress may seem, at least something is happening.

Creative Commercial may have lost their properties
Several key downtown buildings appear to have been sold at sherriff's foreclosure auction yesterday:

[U]From the Sheriff's foreclosure auction web site:[/ (http://www.co.brown.wi.us/sheriff/htmls/sheriffsales.asp)U]
November 14, 2007
Prospera Credit Union vs Washington LLC
217 N Washington St (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=rdk9z37nyv4d&style=o&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15772482&encType=1)– East Green Bay
06 CV 1931
McCarty Law 2401 E Enterprise Ave Appleton WI 54913 920-882-4070
Sold to Plaintiff for $ 216,537.00

November 14, 2007
Prospera Credit Union vs Washington LLC
223-225-227-229 N Washington St (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=rdkdnd7nyvvb&style=o&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15772482&encType=1) – East Green Bay
06 CV 1391
McCarty Law 2401 E Enterprise Ave Appleton WI 54913 920-882-4070
Sold to Plaintiff for $ 1,000,000.00

November 14, 2007
Prospera Credit Union vs Washington LLC
227 E Walnut St & 109 N Adams St (Schauer & Schumacher buildings) (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=rdk3v37nywwt&style=o&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15772551&encType=1)
06 CV 1391
McCarty Law 2401 E Enterprise Ave Appleton WI 54913 920-882-4070
Sold to Plaintiff for $ 847,738.16

Green Bay roots

November 16th, 2007, 02:35 PM

click the link below to get somewhat of a virtual tour of the $989,000 condo for sale at river front lofts. intersting but maybe a little to modern for me with the kind of furniture that theyu have in there. i also didn't like the support poles in the middle of the rooms. in the master bedroom, there are to pole in the direct middle of the room. what do you think about that. HAHA

http://www.loftsontheriver.com/pdf/RFL-405info.pdf

Danillo

November 16th, 2007, 06:04 PM

Washington Street is a through street again!
The rubble is gone, I drove through Washington Street today where the underpass used to be. What really struck me as I drove through here is that something really MAJOR is finally happening downtown. I mean, 5 years ago this would have been a pipe dream. For as slow as progress may seem, at least something is happening.

Creative Commercial may have lost their properties
Several key downtown buildings appear to have been sold at sherriff's foreclosure auction yesterday:

Yeah, I walked down Washington St. yesterday... kind of weird. I mean, it's great, and I do get a feeling that good things are happening, but I'm not used to seeing all the way down the street from Main at all. Can't wait to see what River Center will look like there.

Hopefully the Creative Commercial situation will lead to progress.

click the link below to get somewhat of a virtual tour of the $989,000 condo for sale at river front lofts. interesting but maybe a little to modern for me with the kind of furniture that they have in there. i also didn't like the support poles in the middle of the rooms. in the master bedroom, there are to pole in the direct middle of the room. what do you think about that.

I've been in that unit, I think I posted some pictures I took from there a while back. I thought it was very nice. I agree that it's to modern and the furniture they have in there is not to my taste at all. But with some paint and some warmer furniture and fabrics, I think it would be amazing. I don't think the poles would be a big problem either. As for the Master bedroom, I'm not really a big fan of that layout. I think I'd partition it off and make it two rooms, where half was the bedroom and half a library or something. I don't know, but that did seem a bit wonky to me how it is now, and not because of the pole, very long and narrow. I think it could be overcome.

you know, i would love to see some new pictures if anyone has the time this weekend. sounds like a lot of things have been going on at river center since the last time someone had posted picts back in sept. also, i must congratulate the city of green bay. from what it sounds like is that the city has gotten just about all the donors for the city deck already and plan to be finished with all the financial recruiting before the project even gets underway. Green Bay maybe turning around to be more progressive after all

I took a few yesterday. Poor quality, but you get the idea:

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/rc1.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/rc2.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/rc4.jpg

gbmphillips

November 16th, 2007, 08:41 PM

Wisconsin is not the hell it's the politicians and "progressives" that make are trying to make it that way.

Green Bay 4 Life

November 17th, 2007, 07:20 PM

Wisconsin is not the hell it's the politicians and "progressives" that make are trying to make it that way.

How? By trying to move forward? Thinking outside the box? Being more innovative? The people that think that Green Bay is a world class city are sadly mistaken. We need to keep up with other cities that have said they want to move forward and reinvent themselves in order to keep and attract professionals here who demand those types of elements. Green Bay has a good solid base to build from and in many ways a clean slate. We have things other similar sized communities across the US and Wisconsin don't have. Obviously there are going to be issues that need to be dealt with and everyone will not agree that they were dealt with in the most ideal way. But overly nailing them to the wall will not move us forward. I don't agree with many things that are done in Green Bay (development wise) but I guess in the end there is an effort there. I want the best for the community and hate to settle for second best. I imagine myself as a tourist here and not a resident sometimes and I try to look at how an outsider might see Green Bay. Those who only look at what is written and said and not look inside and try to see the real struggles should not complain.

Puant

November 17th, 2007, 08:28 PM

Let's be real here. Many outsiders think this city is an armpit, a dump, a joke. Some of the fanatical Packer fans might look at Lambeau as some sort of mecca, but not much beyond that. Before I lived here, I felt kind of the same way. THe places that most people get routed to along the highways and arterial streets see almost nothing but a junky hodge-podge of parking lots, ugly buildings, strip malls, etc. Those who see Green Bay on TV (either through the local channels or on packer games) see the typical 'skyline' shot which up to this point was the faceless, run-down buildings on the waterfront, or else they laugh about the vacated lifeless streets (the TV announcers usually make a comment about how '"everyone must be at the game" or inside watching the game'...little do they know that the streets are almost ALWAYS empty and lifeless).

That said, since I've moved here I have discovered some of the lesser known but really great aspects of this community. I was surprised to discover some of these overlooked 'nice' aspects of the city (this is the motivation for my blog). However these 'nice' parts of the city are too few and far between. We need to build upon the city's few remaining assets. As 4Life pointed out, this is a never-ending process. The improvements are an INVESTMENT not just a drain of money. They bring value, life and prosperity to the city. And the people who are going to make this happen are the 'progressives' and, as a necessary evil, the politicians.

GBM, I understand your disgust for politicians, especially the slimy ones. But just because you hate them, why do you want to try drag the rest of the city down with them? You have a right to your opinion, and I respect that. I'm just trying to figure out how people like you tick. LIke Dan indicated, all I see is empty rhetoric and I don't follow that.

Nativist

November 18th, 2007, 10:57 PM

araman0

November 18th, 2007, 11:25 PM

...

Unless you've spent some time in a place like Indiana, I think it's hard not to take a lot for granted.
...

LOL!!! Wow story of my life, in a nutshell.

Every couple months I get a good reminder too since I still visit family in Indiana. (Warsaw)

Puant

November 20th, 2007, 04:09 AM

1. The most recent rendering of RC that I saw, which isn't currently public as far as I know, was pretty cool. I don't think anyone will be disappointed. I was sorry to see that 'front porch' concept go too, but they're saving a ton of money by using the existing Younkers building instead of starting from scratch. They're still talking about an ice rink though, so there will still be an inset space, just not quite as grandiose.

2. gbmphillips, I think that if you were to be honest with yourself and took account for how many of the things that you've enjoyed in your life are a result of Wisconsin's proud progressive tradition, you'd recant your last post. Unless you've spent some time in a place like Indiana, I think it's hard not to take a lot for granted.

3. I believe this boardwalk will have a huge impact. I can't even tell you how often an out of town visitor has asked me where downtown Green Bay is while standing in downtown Green Bay. It's embarrassing to say, "This is it." I think that after the boardwalk, that will no longer be an issue.

Excellent. I'm still perplexed as to why R/C still doesn't have a web site or something promotional like that. . Thanks Nativist for posting. If you can divulge more please do so!

Hey do you know if the building on the right on photo below will have a couple more floors added on? It shows it as being about 2 stories taller on the current render that's hanging on the construction fence. And I'm REALLY curious as to what the children's museum will look like in the foreground fo this picture. THey really seem like they'd better get moving and FAST on that if they really expect to be open in 2008. I mean, there is NOTHING but an empty lot right now.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/ypnkers-site.jpg

Green Bay 4 Life

November 20th, 2007, 03:37 PM

I know Vetter has publicly said a number of start dates which, frustratingly, have come and gone without construction starting. However, is there a time line in the developers agreement that has passed? I'm not saying there isn't, but I don't remember hearing about it (it would seem that the time line must exist), what that time line would be, and if it has passed or not. I really have no idea what Vetter and the city have legally agreed to regarding the timing of the project.

If you read an article in the News section on the Astor Place website regarding the 60% of units reserved posted September of 2005, it indicated there was an 8-month development option given on the Flately site with a possibility of a 4-month extension. So basically a year from September of 2005, which would have expired September of 2006. We are in November of 2007, which makes it a little over a year past due. Obviously it is not going to break ground this winter, so getting close to a year and half + if it goes this spring. I don't recall an extension ever being granted past the one yera in any RDA or Council minutes...

gbmphillips

November 20th, 2007, 06:31 PM

Last night I drove down Washington St with my wife, she has not been down there since it reopened. I mentioned to her that the FOUR restaurants that had been in the Bay Lake building had already closed. She was surprised, I pointed out the her the new coffee shop in the Bellin building and the new restaurant on the second floor. She made the comment as to how she can't see them surviving, there is no traffic in downtown and no reason to go there. I talked about the new construction, but she said without shops people just don't have a reason to be there. I then mentioned the idea the Madison developer has for the old mall and returning it to street stores. She thought that would be a great idea as long as they are not more stores that are now found on Broadway, they need to have a more of an appeal to everyone. This is a person who really does not pay a lot of attention to this stuff. I one of the questions she asked and I could not answer, how can four restaurants in a building that employees over 1000 people fail? No answer for that one, but one has to wonder if the mayor has his horse hitched to the correct a cart or are we just being stringed along for all the wrong reasons so he can build his legacy.

Danillo

November 20th, 2007, 06:31 PM

Puant, Yes, the plan is to add two floors on top of the existing structure, and to add two bays out towards the river. That will be a substancially larger building then, should be nice.

GB4Life, thanks for reminding me of that. In that case, on first thought, and unless there been an extension that neither of us know about, then I'd not fine Vetter or anything, but I wouldn't mind it the site was opened for any interested developers. My guess is nobody would some forward, but still, if the option has expired, it can't hurt to test the waters and see what could be out there.

GBM, to be fair, the four restaurants in the Baylake building were all owned by the same person, so in effect they were all the same restaurant. It wasn't like a food court where you have multiple independent vendors. As to specifically why it failed, I've heard explanations, but I really don't know definitively. Though I'd imagine you can only have so many sub shops on the same block, and something had to give, at least for that part of it.

Regarding the new restaurant in the Belling building, the good news is that it has very good ownership. It's run by the same folks who run Black & Tan, Legends, and a few other successful restaurants. While any business can fail, especially in the restaurant business, I'd say that has a pretty good shot.

Finally, regarding retail, the days of the downtown as a retail center are probably just gone. Not that there can't be retail, but I think it's more of a follower than a leader in getting people downtown. To be honest, I'm a but concerned about the plans for the mall site, but then again, we haven't seen any plans. Finally, regarding the Broadway retail, I agree that while it's good to have businesses there, the retail they have fails completely to add any to the street life in the area. By the time I can ever get down there, everything is already closed and the sidewalks empty. It's always been a disappointment to me.

GBSurveyor

November 20th, 2007, 09:02 PM

I have a few comments to add...

I was at the parade over the weekend and there were a ton of people there, which was nice to see, however as soon as the Santa went buy and the police car followed, people were literally running to get to their cars to "beat the rush" - this was very comical to me...as we watched the Wisconsin band play, the cars slowly filtered out and downtown was basically a ghost town again (like usual).

GBM, I assume that you had never been to the City Center Food Court?

I guess the first time I set foot into the place I knew that it would be an instant failure. The setting lacked anything interesting and the service was terrible. It really was a glorified cafeteria. I never went back...

I am by no means an expert in retail, but I don't believe that you have to be located in the "mecca" of retail to survive. I have not been to Bay Park Sq. since last christmas when my wife dragged me there. I have not been to Best Buy for about the same amount of time. Now that Circuit City has moved to the asphalt hell hole I will most likely just buy online and have it shipped. It is just not worth the hassle for me.

What I believe will work downtown are any shops that have character and that are not over-inflated. I think I remember seeing a comment in the peoples forum in the P-G about a Festival Foods locating downtown. If you really think about it, I don't want to see a prototype Festival Foods with the massive parking lot that goes with it. A nice grocery store is needed, but I am not sold on the "Big Box".

Puant I really liked your Idea about reassessing the uses of the south portion of downtown. If we could concentrate all of those business to the north and reclaim the property for new residential development, I think that would work out. I am all for it. I was thinking of areas around town that would be ripe for in-fill and that makes the most sense.

And how cool would a downtown free shuttle be? I know that it has been mentioned.

What about a connecting bus to UWGB, are there any UWGB students that read this? I know that the campus is not really connected, but I am sure enough students come down to go out and most likely drive, potentially intoxicated.?.? Just a thought. I know that ridership is really low but the Appleton free shuttle is really quite nice...

Nativist

November 20th, 2007, 10:42 PM

One of the cool things that I don't believe has been discussed here is that there will be a glass enclosed galleria with retail spaces running from Washington St. to the Broadway adjacent to the Children's Museum space. There will be press conference/release in mid-December that will fill in a lot of details.

One thing that's really clear to me in thinking about the kind of businesses that will do well in downtown Green Bay is that they need to be destinations. I kind of have my concerns about the viability of Daily Buzz in the Bellin Building, for example. It's at kind of a midpoint between jo-to-go, which is a drive through, and Luna, which is a place that people drive or walk to in order to spend some time in. I think it's success will depend on a lot of foot traffic, is there enough? I certainly hope so! Successful businesses, at least initially will need to be seen as destinations in their own right, and eventually there will hopefully be enough density to be more than the sum of their parts.

One of the things that the redevelopment of the mall with the grid will have to its advantage is a sense of enclosure. Broadway, mostly, has no sense of enclosure and nearly every business is on the West side of the street. I think this is why it's never really worked as well as College Avenue, where you can walk down one side of the street and back on the other. The newly reinstated streets will be small blocks that will feel cozier (if they pull off the architecture right). The lighting will feel great. I think that upscale retail will work well in this area, similar to that new mall where Trader Joe's is North of Milwaukee (I always forget its name). I think eventually Downtown GB will be a place where people work, and then later go out to eat, shop, and play.

And really this vision starts with the Boardwalk. If you've been to Navy Pier in Chicago, Southside Seaport in NYC, Quincy Market in Boston, or Harbor Place in Baltimore, you've seen the power that this kind of feature can have. It may seem expensive, but I think there's a real value in doing it right. I'm not sure what they spent on the boardwalk in Sheboygan, but I think they didn't spend enough. It feels like a place for tourists, not for residents. I think the City Deck (hate that name) will feel like a place for residents, primarily. The most important thing is that the boardwalk has been the catalyst for the transformation of our relationship to our river.

Forgot to Add: I'm not sure what GBMPhillips' wife's considers a shop that 'appeals to everyone' is, but in general, I don't think that downtown can compete with Oneida by having the same stores. It needs to have a more distinct identity than that, I think that can only really be achieved by being a bit more upscale and/or locally owned than Oneida. I'm not sure what her perception of Broadway is, but in reality it's made up largely of independent business owners who are scraping by, offering something a little different, and their clientele comes from all walks of life.

GBSurveyor

November 21st, 2007, 04:36 AM

GBSurveyor

November 21st, 2007, 04:54 AM

Straight from the city's website. Link (http://http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/mins_agd/minutes/20051220MN976.html)

RESOLUTION APPROVING THE TERM SHEET,

AUTHORIZING PREPARATION AND EXECUTION

OF A DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT AND TRANSFER

OWNERSHIP OF THE ADMIRAL FLATLEY PARK PROPERTY

December 20, 2005

BY THE COMMON COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF GREEN BAY, RESOLVED:

WHEREAS, the Common Council has created TIF No. 13 and adopted a project plan for the district; and

WHEREAS, the Astor Place project for the Admiral Flatley Park property is located within the TIF No. 13 District and complies with the project plan for TIF No. 13 previously adopted by the Redevelopment Authority, which was subsequently approved by the Common Council; and

WHEREAS, the Redevelopment Authority has approved the terms and conditions of the Astor Place project pursuant to the attached term sheet.

NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that the Redevelopment Authority staff is hereby authorized to prepare a development agreement for the Astor Place project pursuant to and consistent with the term sheet attached hereto; and that the Mayor and Clerk are authorized to execute the Development Agreement subject to technical legal adjustments to the agreement as may be deemed necessary by the parties’ counsel and consulting bond counsel.

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Mayor and Clerk are authorized to execute a deed to Vetter Denk Properties, LLC, (or a subsequent proposed grantee) to transfer ownership of the Admiral Flatley Park property.

Approved December 21, 2005

Astor Place

Term Sheet for Developer’s Agreement

Vetter Denk Properties, LLC

1. Developer shall construct on the property known as Admiral Flatley Park a 17-story mixed-use tower with three floors of parking and retail space and the remaining floors consisting of at least 80 residential condominiums for a minimum project value of $33.2 million.

2. The project site, bounded by Main Street to the north, a 50-foot setback from the Fox River to the west, Admiral Flatley Court to the south and Washington Street to the east for approximately 30,662 square feet shall be conveyed to the Developer for a purchase price of $200,000.00. The closing on project site shall be on or before July 1, 2006 and construction of the project shall begin within 30 days of the closing. Prior to closing, Developer shall provide proof of financing for the entire project and proof of construction contracts for the project. The project shall be completed within 20 months from the commencement date.

3. Individual members of the Developer will personally guarantee a total of $33.2 million of tax-assessed value, including a guarantee of $6 million of increment to be realized on January 1, 2007, which shall support $6.7 million in TIF eligible expenditures including capitalized interest and borrowing costs. Of the $6.7 million, $3.7 million shall be allocated toward Developer’s TIF eligible project construction costs.

4. At least $3 Million in TIF funds generated by the project shall be used by the City for right of way acquisition; reconstructing Washington Street between Admiral Flatley Court and Main Street, relocating all necessary utilities, and constructing the Boardwalk in accordance with the concept approved by the Common Council in May 2005 from Admiral Flatley Court north to the Main Street Bridge. Any utility credits resulting from construction of this project shall be rebated against the City’s expenditures on utility relocation. The portion of the Boardwalk between the Project Site and the Fox River shall be completed by January 1, 2008.

5. Developer shall use its funds for purposes of constructing the project as described in No. 1 above, including elements of property acquisition, parking, public market space, environmental remediation, if any, foundation pilings and other TIF eligible project costs. Excluding property acquisition, TIF funds shall be provided to the Developer on an 80/20 basis, i.e. for every $100.00 spent by the Developer, the City shall provide $20.00 in TIF funding up to the total of $3.5 million. The first request for TIF reimbursement for construction-related costs shall not be submitted any earlier than October 1, 2006.

6. The City shall vacate the necessary right of way for purposes of straightening and reconstructing Washington Street and then rezone the project site to Downtown 2 zoning as provided for in the revised zoning code.

7. The City and Developer may enter into an agreement for lease of approximately 100 parking stalls within the Main Street Parking Ramp at the market rate.

8. Developer shall be granted a 12-month planning option for development of the northwest corner of Walnut and Washington Streets (Site 4) for $10,000.00. Developer may request two 6-month extensions for an additional $5,000.00 each. All option fees shall be forfeited to the City in the event Developer is not successful in carrying out the terms of the Planning Option. Additional terms for a planning option shall be negotiated by City Staff and brought back for approval to the RDA.

9. The City agrees to construct the Boardwalk concepts approved by the Council in May 2005 for the easterly bank of the Fox River from the Walnut Street Bridge to the Main Street Bridge as funding and development permits. In addition to TIF funding, the City shall make all reasonable efforts to secure state, federal and private funding to assist with construction of the Boardwalk. The City shall also use all reasonable efforts to market and showcase the Boardwalk and the growth of downtown.

10. The City shall work with the Developer to obtain necessary permits and easements for boat docks on the Fox River to provide for approximately 40 boat slips for use by the residents of Astor Place, the proposed development of the Younkers’ site and the existing residential project, Riverfront Lofts. Developer shall be responsible for all costs associated with purchase, installation, removal, maintenance and any other costs related to the use and operation of the boat slips and docks. Developer is required to comply with any conditions or stipulations necessary to obtain dock permits as may be required by the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources.

11. Upon adoption of this term sheet, City Staff shall prepare a Developer’s Agreement in accordance with these terms subject to any legal or technical modifications that may be necessary as determined by Counsel.

Moved by Ald. Theisen, seconded by Ald. Wery to adopt the resolution.
Roll call: Ayes: Graves, Theisen, Fradette, Arnoldi, Wery, Nelson, VanderLeest, Weber. Noes: VanDenHeuvel, Nicholson, Kriescher, Zima. Motion carried.

Danillo

November 21st, 2007, 05:57 PM

Well then, there it is. It doesn't really say what the course of action is now that those deadlines have passed. Seems the city has kept up thier end, now we need some construction! At the same time, unless there's someone else coming forward with a plan, I wouldn't be too aggressive about it.

Navarino Rezdnt

November 22nd, 2007, 01:56 AM

I'm sure that what you are about to read is nothing new.

When it comes down to retail in Green Bay’s downtown, I think that what we really need is something other than the trendy Trader Joe’s that’s going to be the same as the Trader Joe’s in Chicago, Detroit or wherever they have those things. I've never been in a Trader Joe's but I can pretty much assume that I'll walk in and think "oh, this is it? what's the deal?" Sure you might get the first timer gushers exclaiming "WOW! THIS IS AWESOME! I FEEL SO IMPORTANT NOW THAT I'VE BEEN TO A BIG CITY STORE! I CAN'T WAIT TO GET BACK TO SCHOOL AND TELL THE OTHER 5TH GRADERS ABOUT IT" :banana: [dance banana, dance]

Keywords are “distinction” and “exclusive”. To be different from the malls, downtown businesses need to be distinctive from the franchise stores that are at every mall across the country. We don’t need another Old Navy or TJ Maxx taking up space downtown. The businesses need to offer exclusive products that can’t be obtained at other stores in the area. Again, you can buy Sony TVs at any discount retailer like Wal-Mart, what’s the big deal if they are sold downtown for 45% more? Electronic stores won't work.

There are business ideas that don’t have to rely on “tried and true” business models of “Can it be franchised?” and “Does it meet the efficiency standards of the corporation model?”

Before the streamlining of business and “corporate efficiency”, businesses were independently owned and operated. Businesses along Broadway show that resurgence in the O&O business model and it’s good to see. The owner-operated business doesn’t need to rely on mass data compiling that shows corporate logo color is 35% less-agreeable, 45% more agreeable, with 20% agreeable that logo color doesn’t mean a rat’s a$$ about the products inside.

Now, I didn’t go to the meeting about “branding” Green Bay but I do remember that we had the brand “All-American City” a few years back and I haven’t seen any benefits from that.

I have some ideas for possible businesses that could make downtown shopping more distinctive and exclusive. They include:

A motor scooter dealership might fit well downtown. In the ‘50s there was more than a handful of new car dealerships downtown. High gas prices and a changing demographic that’s getting younger could bring resurgence in transportation–related dealerships. The car dealerships moved out because cars take up space and the best place for a dealership is an empty farm field that can be covered with asphalt. Scooters are small so the showroom floor is smaller. Inventory can be kept, and service can take place, outside of the downtown area. Just the showroom is needed. A scooter fits nice into a showcase window at the street level. I checked Wikipedia and there is something like 50 manufacturers of scooters. A dealership that sells just a handful of what’s available could draw people.

Another idea is a “specialty” or “exclusive” furniture store that sells “distinctive” products. Not a store that sells a brown leather sofa comparable to the ones at Van Greedes or American, but high-end furniture that isn’t like all the others. Maybe something like the Lullaby Shop that sells high quality infant and children’s bedroom furniture. Or another specialty store that sells just high-end home theater seating that’s way better than Van Greedes’. And here again, just the showroom needs to be downtown, inventory and the delivery department can be kept at a warehouse someplace else around the metro area.

People will come to shops that aren’t high ticket affairs. Another suggestion might be a fabric shop. It’s a niche store and it can’t compete at the level of Wal-Mart. It would need to differentiate itself from Wal-Mart by offering distinctive and exclusive fabrics along with implementing a customer-friendly offering like quilting groups. Women will drive miles to join knitting or quilting groups that produce goods to sell to raise money for charity. How nice would it be to have 10-20 women going downtown every Wednesday night to knit, socialize and spend money at other retailers? That’s what we need, less drinkers and more knitters. :) Just kidding. But really, my daughter is a knitter living in Minneapolis and she belongs to several groups and drives up to 20 miles to be with other knitters. It’s like a bowling league.

It isn’t one store that’s going to make an impact on the success of downtown, but many diverse ones that get people downtown shopping at one and then going into others to “look around.” It’s about walking down Flatley Way and looking at what’s in the big display windows to see “what’s new.”

The City Deck, (can’t sound more redneck than that) will be nice to connect to the river, but after walking the short distance between Main and Walnut, watching a dead carp float by, there’s going to have to be more. You can put in as much glitter and glitz as you want, but it’s substance that’s going to make downtown thrive.

Loading another coffee/bagel/sandwich shop into the mix doesn’t help. I’ve never had a good cup of coffee at a “coffee shop” because the beans might be fresh-ground but they usually aren’t fresh-roasted and probably sat in some huge warehouse for a few months before they get to the shop, which makes them bitter. I’ll opt for the coffee at Al’s Hamburgers or the Marathon at the corner of Monroe and Walnut any day over anything else downtown. From my experience, if it cost twice as much it’s probably ten times worse. The only exclusion is Starbucks. And there’s nothing local about them and it’s not any better than gas station coffee that cost half as much. For me, I eat downtown several times a week at Al’s and once at Fetaz. I’ll walk to Al’s for a cheeseburger or the blue plate special and coffee, but Fetaz delivers so there’s no need to walk the seven blocks for a falafel.

That’s my “buck two-eighty” worth of opinion. Happy Thanksgiving Everybody!

gbmphillips

November 22nd, 2007, 04:21 PM

The City Deck, (can’t sound more redneck than that) The yahoos that came up with city deck can't really be happy with it. I am banking on a major sponsor eventually getting naming rights and changing the stupid name. "Burger Boats WALKING THE PLANK"
but after walking the short distance between Main and Walnut, watching a dead carp float by Now that right there is down right funny (and true) :lol:

Puant

November 22nd, 2007, 05:53 PM

Don't lose sight of the "big picture" here...the boardwalk is much more than just a singular stand-alone entity from which you can watch dead carp.

Nvrno, you are correct in that other more substantial things are needed dowontown. But since all of those things left the downtown years ago, how do you suggest we get them back? Snap our fingers? That doesn't work (I've tried). So what else can we do? How about a multi-faceted approach which starts with things like TIF creation, increasing connections, fixing up infrastructure, etc? ... the boardwalk is just part of this overall 'big picture' plan, but an important one because one of the biggest things that sets the downtown apart from other places like Oneida Street is the waterfront. We all know that other cities who were smart enough to improve their waterfronts (among many other things) reaped the rewards.

Navarino Rezdnt

November 23rd, 2007, 12:48 PM

I just got back from Minneapolis and it still impresses me driving through downtown on I-94 after dark and seeing all the tall buildings lit up. But that city's downtown is a Mountain Ram compared to Green Bay's being a Pygmy Goat. And there might be part of the solution.

Astor Place, Grand Union and whatever Site 4 becomes will fill the need for BIG in downtown. But overall, GB's DT will remain small in size. I hope that whatever T Wall comes up with in their development option, it takes that into account. Upper floors with office and maybe retail in the size of a Shopko Express centered in the middle of the building with an entrance or two sandwiched between two street level store fronts that like the others are smaller, having more of them, and being in the price range that smaller entrepreneur ventures could afford to locate downtown. Green Bay was billed as being a great place for entrepreneurship, solidifying that with affordable rent downtown could be the get-go that works better than snapping fingers and burning incense.

Puant, you posted a video or some other info about a year ago about a small city that was revitalizing its downtown and what stuck with me is that people like to go to a downtown that has various and interesting small bohemian shops. O&O businesses that don't have the plasticity of shopping at Wal-Mart, but are comfortable just to be inside. Group those businesses into part of whatever T. Wall comes up with and DT will be a cozy place to take an evening stroll along the city dock, (Fox Landing?) and into a comfortable store where pushy salespeople don't rush right up and ask a million questions, "Can I help you?" "Do you know what you're looking for?" and on and on.

I think the best way to attract those small businesses where people like APAC employees and other office workers can browse on their breaks, is to make available smaller spaces at a reasonable cost. A good place to start would be the Washington St. properties that just sold at auction. It seems to me the previous owner was sitting and waiting for top dollar for a quick return instead getting it in smaller increments over a longer period of time. That and maybe he just wasn't creative enough in searching for prospects that could fill the unique setting the properties are in. There's enough food places, how about small-scale niche retail like a novelty store (http://www.mcphee.com/items/11551.html), magic shop (http://www.houdini.com/),etc.

There must be some standard formula that developers use to gauge their investment that it pays back in X amount of time to meet their needs for profit. In the case of downtown, it might be better in the long run if interested parties were to take an X+Y time period to make it more feasible for the independent entrepreneur to jump in. Plain and simple, it just costs too much to do business in downtown for anybody to have interest in locating there. There's plenty of 20-30 year old strip malls where rent is a lot cheaper.

Baby steps. N. Washington and N. Adams streets properties being occupied by small entrepreneurship entities and not being burdened with high rent because customers will take time to come. Without a big expensive media blitz, small businesses become known to people who work downtown, and then by word of mouth the message is spread. Like a virus it starts small, at the water cooler, and then starts to grow exponentially via e-mail and casual conversation until everybody starts mentioning "the neat little stores downtown." Then the success of these small stores spreads to other entrepreneurs and they want a piece of the pie, more small store space is needed. New businesses start popping up on the second floor. Success brings need for some of the entrepreneurs to grow, so they knock down the wall to the vacant adjoining space and expand. But please remember, people are not going to rush right down the first day, month, or year that businesses open. Time is needed for that to happen. Fish Creek didn't just pop up overnight, I'm pretty sure to say that it's a safe bet it took Door County decades to become popular.

Next thing is that the available office space fills up with companies that want to be downtown where all these neat little stores are. More office space is needed. More building.

Of course it couldn't possibly be that simple and easy, otherwise it would have been done, wouldn't it? Maybe not. The players downtown keep changing, the ones that can't make a play of it leave and new ones step in to fill the void. How well are the new players going to make the game better? If everybody could decide that end-of-game strategy, where success is determined by accepting small victories and defeats early on culminates at being victorious the end of the game, maybe DT can succeed.

So that's all clear now. For me, big retail is out and small, distinctive, exclusive, niche retail is in. The more the better.

Puant, does that fit in "the big picture?"

One of the reasons I enjoy living here in Navarino is that it's immediately adjacent to the downtown and the library, YMCA and hopefully other future businesses that will make a walk downtown more interesting. I anticipate it's those advantages that will encourage more people to participate in some of the programs like low interest and forgivable loans to convert older multi-family housing to single-family to help gentrify the neighborhood. I see potential for downtown to again become a center for community and commerce.

I am by no means an expert at any of this, but my objective viewpoint is still worth a "buck two-eighty" on the open market and I'll gladly give it here for free.:)

Puant

November 23rd, 2007, 08:35 PM

More than anything, I would love to see those "O&O" places. Great ideas there, Navarino. I just wanted to make sure it was clear was that the waterfront revitalization should help with the whole "sense of place" that the downtown needs to nurture, because what brings people in to the small shops you describe is the uniqueness of place, the experience, the ability to do many different things in a walkable area.. I can see the boardwalk fusing into that overall experiece quite nicely, and so I jsut wanted to emphasize here that the boardwalk isn't a boardwalk just for the sake of a boardwalk...crazy way of stating that , I think you know what I mean Navarino.

In fact navarino I love your ideas. For example you mentioned the custom furniture store. I've been thinkning about that for a long time actually. And you know what building(s) were built as custom furniture stores? The Schauer & Schumacher buildings of course. I hate seeing these buildings empty because I can forsee only 3 possible outcomes and 2 aren't good: 1) they continue to sit empty and become more run-down 2) since they're run down and empty someone comes along and tears them down or 3) someone finds a good use for them. I've thought a lot about what would be a good use. Restaurant...thought about it...probably not the best. Bookstore. Maybe. But I think a furniture store might be best. The alleyway still has a heavy lift mechanism which could be used to hoist custom deliveries into a small truck. The front window displays would be nice. And as you mentioned it woudl be something that would really be a unique draw, a destination, just like you say. Tie that into a bunch more of your ideas and we'd have something!

Let's just make sure we find a way to entice these types of businesses to come back downtown...one of the ways I think can help is to make sure the city treats the public spaces INBETWEEN the businesses in a way that makes it equally as important as the businesses themselves. Keep the streets & sidewalks in good shape. Put more greenery down there. Build a boardwalk. Get rid of some of the parking lots.. That sort of thing, you know.

I think most of us here see the "big picture" perhaps I didn't explain myself well yesterday because I was getting ready to gorge on football and turkey.

P.S. there is a TON of other stuff recently posted here that I'd like to reply to. The last 10-20 posts were chocked full of good discussion. But I can't reply now, I've got to go find some dead carp to watch float by before the water freezes over.

Danillo

November 24th, 2007, 02:58 AM

The thing with retail, as I see it, is this. The big chains aren't going to come downtown anyway, for the most part. So when people say, "I'd like to see big brand XYZ downtown," I mean, who cares? A big business has a model of where they're looking to locate, and a failed retail downtown isn't going to fit many models.

As others have pointed out, that's okay. The local entrepreneurial businesses will come if we do the other things right. They aren't going to come just becuase you or I want them to, but if we can get enough people working downtown, enough people living downtown, enough people coming for entertianment, and can capture enough of those people at places like the boardwalk, then the retail will follow. Where there are people, there will be businessmen to sell them things. Retail as the main draw downtown is gone, the suburbs do that too well (at least in the current economy). But retail can be a part of a vibrant downtown and add a lot of pinache to the environment.

As for what types of stores open, it's up to the entrepreneurs and customers to decide that. It's the new businessperson with the creative idea who will see a market, find a location, and open. If the customers come, then it will make it. To say that we need this or that type of business is sort of moot. Who'd say we need a place like Lou's Bootery? But there it is, and in business for a long time.

So unique, local businesses? Yes, in whatever form they come. Our job is to work on the other things we can control, which as Puant points are the boardwalk, TIF, zoning, etc.

Oh, I stopped in at the Daily Buzz today. I liked it. That building is great, one of the top landmarks downtown, and it's so nice to be able to access it now. What an asset, let it not be overlooked as an example of where things are getting better downtown!

Nativist

November 24th, 2007, 05:59 PM

I think a vivid example of the effect that a piece of infrastructure can have is the Fox River Trail. I left Green Bay in 1993 and returned in 2003 and I was really shocked by how the trail had been built and how well utilized it had become. The mere existence of it has led many live healthier lives, how can you measure the impact of such a thing? I'm not sure what it cost, but whatever it was, it's easy to imagine people complaining about the amount that was spent. Right now the trail doesn't have much of an impact on downtown, people don't seem to go that far. But in the future the boardwalk will be the trailhead, at least for some.

Don't forget about the Children's Museum, they're expecting 300,000 visitors a year, which works out to over 800 a day. I don't know if that's wildly off base, but even if it's half of that, it's a lot of traffic. Between the museum and the boardwalk, there will already be 100s of additional people downtown every day.

Also, being way into coffee, I just have to respond to this coffee thing. 1. Luna roasts their own. Kavarna gets theirs roasted to their order from Alterra weekly. The Attic gets theirs from La Java, which roasts to their order. Not sure about Daily Buzz, haven't been in there yet. In any case, the three I mentioned have fresher coffee than Starbucks. 2. I know that Luna and Kavarna mostly serve fair trade and organic coffee, which costs more, but guarantees that the no one's getting exploited. The coffee that you're getting from the convenience store comes from a corrupt plantation system that resembles slavery in some cases. That's not something that I would care to support. And finally, I don't believe that you can't tell the difference in taste. 3. You ask what's up with coffeehouses, and who needs them? But really, coffee itself is incidental. What they are are low obligation places to meet and be, similar to bars, but accessible to entire families, young people, and folks who don't want to be around drunks and cigarette smoke. That's what they're about. If they're good, comfortable destinations, they will help bring people to the area. No one objects to their being a lot of bars in the downtown, why are coffeehouses any different?

Of course, we need more than just coffeehouses and bars! I'd like to see something that ties into the Fox River Trail, maybe some kind sporting goods store geared to joggers and rollerbladers? It could double as a juice bar. Bookstores are really difficult, maybe the Attic could move into the Schauer and Schumacher building and start carrying new books too? It'd take a pretty hefty chunk of capital to do it, there's a lot of risk involved. I don't think much will happen until there's a concrete plan for the mall.