Some really great posts lately!!^^

The former mall is like a black hole that sucks away any energy that gets close to it. I think that energy travels through some sort of wormhole and reappears in Appleton or somewhere else.

I can't wait to see what T Wall comes up with. My biggest fear remains that just 1 developer will try to harness the negative energy all alone. It's waaay to big for any one developer, no matter how great they are. I still think if T. Wall doesn't come up with something suitable (which is to design some overall plan but turn over the actual development to others), the city should just get started with the street grid themselves and parcel it off to many individuals with some zoning restrictions (not too many suface parking lots, good architecture, minimum height of 2 or 3 stories, etc). Why not? What would be the cons to this approach?

And as for the demand of "Good architecture" ... many think that equates to too much cost and therefore skimp. But when you think about it, buildings that adjoin each other side-to-side like a downtown of old only has to focus the exterior architecture to the front of the building. If tghere are no parking lots around it, just another building tight up against it, there is much less surface area for each building. The budget can then be put towards other things like good architecture.

One of the other things I'm excited about...Nativist said something about a galleria in this area. How freakin cool would that be? I cannot wait to see this. Remember, a couple years ago, we all came to kind of the same conclusion about how, if done right, this sort of thing might fit nicely into this area. As long as we're starting with more-or-less a "clean slate", lets do it. I just hope it's designed better than my playtime rendering (http://home.new.rr.com/visualizeit/downtown_GB.html)

Hate to disappoint, but the rendering of the galleria (which will be the front entrance of the RC) was not nearly as grand as that! It runs from Washington St. to the boardwalk just North of the Children's Museum, it has the museum on one side, and several retail spots on the other. Still pretty cool though.

As far as the mall goes, I'd love to see it done with dozens of developers/business owners following a city grid and zoning guidelines. It would be a lot livelier, and there would be more people investing energy downtown. I think that would be great. From the city's standpoint though, it probably feels more risky, development could be very uneven, take a long time, lack any cohesiveness, etc. I can see why the might want to work with T Wall. Dozens of builders feels more organic/democratic.

When I think about downtown I keep forgetting about the Children's Museum and its impact. It truly will be something special for the city.

I like the idea for the galleria and how it would fit in that spot.

And putting buildings up next to each other so that just the face needs to be architecturally pleasing works well. Having adjoining parking lots/spaces for the buildings shouldn't be an issue due to the available ramp space in the area.

I went to the Daily Buzz today and the coffee I had was good. There were a few people inside which surprised me for it being Saturday and it's so new. There was something going on at the Meyer so spillover from that might have brought more people in. There were even three people that ventured up the grand staircase to see where it went.

Nativist, you mentioned a juice bar and I really think that would work well in close proximity to the boardwalk. Especially in conjunction with a small sporting goods store geared towards joggers and bladers as you suggest. Businesses like that don't require a lot of space to carry on operations so I think they would fit in well.

i found this about the redevelopment meeting that is going on next week. looks like work is starting to get underway at least to some degree at the Ole' Larsen cannery.

ORDER OF BUSINESS:



1. Review and action on a term sheet with Smet Construction for development of the northeast corner of Broadway and Dousman Street.



The Authority may convene in closed session pursuant to Sections 19.85(1)(f), Wis. Stats., to consider financial, medical, social or personal histories of specific persons which if discussed in public would likely have a substantial adverse effect upon the reputation of the person referred to in such histories or data. The Authority may thereafter reconvene in open session pursuant to Section 19.85(2), Wis. Stats., to report the results of the closed session and consider the balance of the agenda.



Recommendation: Approval of term sheet and forward a recommendation for approval to City Council.

Hello all, another new poster here. I've been following along for quite some time and have been truly impressed with the knowledge and enthusiasm many of you share for GB. I really appreciate the insights, pics, etc.

On to business...

In recent posts there was some mention of how there may be enough food/restaurant places downtown. I partially agree with this when it comes to traditional eateries. What I would love to see would be some more small deli-type shops that are found in bigger cities. I can't help but think of NYC and the amount of options they offer. I know its not fair to compare NYC to GB, but just one or two of those places may provide the unique experience. On that note, there is a newer pizza place in De Pere called Sgambati's. They serve a pretty good New York style pizza at a reasonable cost. You can even walk in and get pizza by the slice. I was speaking with a worker (presumed owner) when I was in a few weeks ago and he said that if all goes well they hope to expand to DT GB at some point. He specifically mentioned the RC by the children's museum. Not sure if anything will come of it,but found it interesting.

I can't wait to see what T Wall comes up with. My biggest fear remains that just 1 developer will try to harness the negative energy all alone. It's waaay to big for any one developer, no matter how great they are. I still think if T. Wall doesn't come up with something suitable (which is to design some overall plan but turn over the actual development to others), the city should just get started with the street grid themselves and parcel it off to many individuals with some zoning restrictions (not too many suface parking lots, good architecture, minimum height of 2 or 3 stories, etc). Why not? What would be the cons to this approach?

As far as the mall goes, I'd love to see it done with dozens of developers/business owners following a city grid and zoning guidelines.

I agree, parceling it out would be the best long term option. Problem is, too many people have a hard time being able to do something like the boardwalk when that poses virtually zero risk to the taxpayers, that it's pretty tough to expect people to go for leveling a whole site without someone else paying for it.

Really, it doesn't have to be a huge risk. That value of that site had been, what, $4 million? Get one developer to come along with a Nicolet Bank sized plan and you could triple the assessed value of the site and leave the rest for further development. It's really the best thing to do, but the willingness here to invest in anything is very low, and it would take quite a bit longer to fill the space which people would complain about. None of those are good reasons, but that is basically what we're dealing with.

As for retail options downtown, again, it's basically a matter of critical mass. As others have pointed out, the boardwalk plan is about a lot of things. It collects people that are down for other things that already exist or will soon (theater, food, Children's Museum) and keeps them around longer. It's a transportation hub, people already use the river by boat, and the fox river trail, this gives them an attractive place to stop downtown. It's a site for small scale performances. It's a place for people to sit and people watch for a bit. It's a place for convention attendees to go outside of their hotel rooms. Basically as I said, effective public spaces like this do a good job of collecting people. Once people are in the area (and the boardwalk isn't alone in getting people there) someone can come along and sell them things (like juice or slices of pizza). I'm less worried though about what specific types of retail may come because we can't really do anything about that. What we can do is make the area a place where entrepreneurs want to look into because they have a good chance to be successful there.

I finally got a chance this past weekend to drive down Washington and take a look at the RC site. It really doesn't seem that big considering what is all going there, museum, offices, retail, parking ramp. Does anyone know exactly how big the children's museum is going to be, either square footage or how many stories tall it may be.

Also Danillo, with what you just said about just putting a Nicolet Bank size development on one of the parcels of the mall site and leaving the rest for future development. What makes you so sure that an idea like that wouldnt go over? The mayor really just seems to be concerned with getting some property taxes off of the mall site so I could see him settling for a small increase in taxes now for a large increase 5-10 years down the road.

I agree, parceling it out would be the best long term option. Problem is, too many people have a hard time being able to do something like the boardwalk when that poses virtually zero risk to the taxpayers, that it's pretty tough to expect people to go for leveling a whole site without someone else paying for it.

As for retail options downtown, again, it's basically a matter of critical mass. As others have pointed out, the boardwalk plan is about a lot of things. It collects people that are down for other things that already exist or will soon (theater, food, Children's Museum) and keeps them around longer. It's a transportation hub, people already use the river by boat, and the fox river trail, this gives them an attractive place to stop downtown. It's a site for small scale performances. It's a place for people to sit and people watch for a bit. It's a place for convention attendees to go outside of their hotel rooms. Basically as I said, effective public spaces like this do a good job of collecting people. Once people are in the area (and the boardwalk isn't alone in getting people there) someone can come along and sell them things (like juice or slices of pizza). I'm less worried though about what specific types of retail may come because we can't really do anything about that. What we can do is make the area a place where entrepreneurs want to look into because they have a good chance to be successful there.

Danillo: Very succinct ^^ Excellent reply.:applause:

OliverDP: Welcome! glad you have joined in on the discussion. Sgambati's sounds good. I'd love to see it.

Parking: I'd like to see all of the "Mall Site" buildings built tight up against the sidewalk (zero setback), tallish (at least a few stories...Perhaps this would allow ample space behind the buildings for parking. I haven't worked out the spacing for this but it seems possible. Although I hate what parking lots have done to our downtown, I don't mind them if they're tucked behind building. THis would help keep the "downtown" look and feel from the street. Only a few narrow passageway for cars would be required at a few spaces along the street and perhaps at the end of the block. THis would not break up the streetscape too much. Additionally there will be on-the-street parking. This sure seems to beat the other parking options. I suppose it depends on what types of businesses fill the "mall site" and what their space requirements are, but I envision smaller businesses (law firms, specialty shops, that sort of thing) which should be able to work inside of a smaller footprint with multiple levels. Mix in a mid-high rise adjacent to the existing parking ramp and we might have something. Just a few more rambling thoughts....Maybe I'll get motivated tonight and try working out the dimensions on my SketchUp city model.

The Children's Museum is 15,000 sq. ft., one very tall story, with two stories of parking above, and, hopefully, several floors of office above the parking ramp.

How about parking inside of the blocks? They do this in Italy a lot, buildings around the outer perimeter, with a parking lot in the middle, like a square donut.

Of course, there isn't an orthogonal grid in Bologna, or many other italian cities, but I think this will illustrate what I mean: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=via+zamboni,+bologna,+italia&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=34.038806,82.265625&ie=UTF8&ll=44.488894,11.33707&spn=0.001871,0.005021&t=k&z=18&iwloc=addr&om=1

I did a little bit of "massing" to take a look at potential building sites and adjacent parking if the mall site is to be developed with the street grid. I'm sure the city has a better handle on it but here's my estimation...

In addition to the new 800 stall Cherry Street ramp:

-The Pine St parking ramp must hold about 800 cars
-the Main St ramp: ~400 cars
-I figure the "in-block" parking behind BayLake and the new buildings would hold about 100 cars
-The restored street grid would create perhaps 200 new "on-street" parking spots
-The lot behind Days Inn would hold perhaps 30 cars

I figure perhaps 2300 parking spots could be on or within a hundred feet of the former mall site. This parking would allow a continuous street-front of buildings along the new streets. Here are some scale massing sketches, kind of crude but they give an idea:

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/20071126downtown_street_Grid_Par-2.jpg

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/20071126downtown_street_Grid_Par-1.jpg

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/20071126downtown_street_Grid_Parkin.jpg

I love that you did that! Sketchup is a fine thing, I'm still trying to get a handle on it, so I'm impressed with your adeptness. Thanks for putting that together. The one thing that really leaps out at me is the importance of creating a strong pedestrian link between the KI Center/Regency Suites (or whatever it is called these days) and the rest of downtown across Main Street.

Nice work Puant. One thing of note, and this may have affected your parking space counts, is that as far as I know the Penny's building won't be changed in a way that would allow Flatley Court and Jeffersion Street to be put through as you have shown. In fact, I don't believe that the Penny's building is considered part of the mall site that T Wall is working on.

Regarding the behind-the-building parking. While that is preferable to surface lots visible from the street, I'm not necessarily a huge fan. It basically can become a suburb turned inside-out where people drive to the, in this case, back door and no street life is created. It also still takes up land that could be put to a better use. I'm not sure what their vacant capacity is, but it seems to me that the Pine and Main ramps had enough parking to accommodate the mall when it was thriving, so shouldn't they be able to handle traffic to what replaces the mall, along with the on-street parking? I know that's a bit of an idealized way of thinking, but I'd hate to turn that area into one where more life is happening between peoples' cars and the back doors of businesses than on the sidewalk.

That said, if the parking lot you've drawn could make the larger Baylake Bank lot plaza I put up here a while back a reality, then I'd happily make that compromise. It would require some sort of trade off with T. Wall, who in reality is probably going to want surface parking, so I'm not counting on it, but still, I'd love to have that plaza!

For those who may not have seen it, this is the plaza I'm referring to:

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/downtownvital/plaza3.jpg

Navarino, I wouldn't be so dismissive of Trader Joes. It's not like a Whole Foods. Their products are pretty inexpensive. Most importantly, they know how to pack the house. Broads love that place. I could care less why people dig it, all that's important is that a lot of people prefer shopping there over the mega stores. Now whether Trader Joes would even consider a store in downtown is another issue...

One thing I noticed (and really appreicate) when I was home was how the city doesn't skimp on its infrastructure. Driving down Broadway from west De Pere to the new Ashwaubenon marina, I was very impressed at how nice they made Broadway look. The street improvements including a wide bike lane and decorative lighting were shockingly nice for a formerly overlooked street. Also, I took notice of the area high schools. They are all beautiful brick buildings and even the recent additions look great. High school additions in LA consist of (no joke) lining formerly grassy areas and parking lots with glorified travel trailers. And in plenty of cities traffic lights dangle from swinging power lines. The infrastructure is one thing that the city and suburbs really do a nice job on. And considering how critical the city considers the downtown redevelopment, I'm pretty optimistic as to how the boardwalk and future streetscapes will look when the grid is re-introduced.

Also, did anyone catch the articles in the Journal-Sentinel in the last couple weeks about the development surrounding Lambeau? There was mention of making the Packers' practice facility into an "Olympic villiage" type setting. And that would obviously be the head of the pedestrian boardwalk. Very intriguing. I'd love to see drawings as to what they have in mind.

The one thing that really leaps out at me is the importance of creating a strong pedestrian link between the KI Center/Regency Suites (or whatever it is called these days) and the rest of downtown across Main Street.

You got that right!

...as far as I know the Penny's building won't be changed in a way that would allow Flatley Court and Jeffersion Street to be put through as you have shown.

Uh oh. That would severely hamper the connections to Main Street, especially if the street cannot be passed through the Main St parking ramp.

Regarding the behind-the-building parking. While that is preferable to surface lots visible from the street, I'm not necessarily a huge fan. It basically can become a suburb turned inside-out where people drive to the, in this case, back door and no street life is created. It also still takes up land that could be put to a better use.

I totally agree with you, I put that backdoor parking on the drawing as a last resort, because everyone around here treats parking as so make-or-break, especially if it's more than 10 steps away from the door. And yes, I'm 1000% in favor of your park on the south side of Baylake, and so if this new lot could enable that, great.

Bartles--
I did catch the news on the Packers buying the parcels around Lambeau. I equated that to: they'll tear down more houses and make even bigger surface parking lots. That's what I see anyway...hopefully I'm wrong.

Regarding GB's infrastructure...Very true, we do have that going for us. East and WEst high schools are great buildings.
I tend to not talk much about Broadway because it seems like it's rebuilding nicely. I too like most of what they did with the streetscape.

I think I heard this name mentioned a few days back...

From Press-gazette- Link (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071128/GPG03/711280637/1247)

Restaurant opens

Sgambati's New York Pizza opened at the end of September on the opposite side of the strip mall.

Husband-and-wife owners Ray and Cathy Sgambati moved to the area four years ago from New York, and Cathy said the couple was surprised to find out no one here offered New York pizza.

"It's not really a style of pizza since the first pizzeria originated in New York," Ray Sgambati said. "It's more about what you put into it."

He is referring to the made-from-scratch sauces that start out with whole tomatoes and the delicious pies that come fresh out of the oven with a variety of toppings that have no limit.

"It really is about what the customers want," Cathy Sgambati said. "It is about providing them an experience."

Ray Sgambati's father and brother are in the restaurant business in New York, and they came here to help Ray and Cathy get the business set up.

Even though the couple had never opened a restaurant in the area, it had customers the first day the place opened.

"My neighbors really pushed us to open it," Cathy Sgambati said. "They would come over and wait for leftovers on Sunday."

Now, those same neighbors stop in for a slice of pizza, a full pie or one of the many other items on the menu, including salad, Panini, calzone, Stromboli and pasta dishes.

The restaurant provides eat in, take out and a special delivery service that ranges from bringing food to customers at Haven Salon and Spa to enhance their experience to delivering to homes and businesses in the area.

"This is not processed food. This is recipes that came from years and years of Italian heritage," Cathy said. "You never know where life will take you, so you enjoy each experience."

— Charity Olson writes for the De Pere Journal.

Wow, I'm excited! I lived in Brooklyn for a couple of years and definitely developed a taste for the stuff. It would be very cool too if they opened up downtown, I can definitely imagine strolling around with a slice, though I'd have to start smoking again to get the full effect.

Uh oh. That would severely hamper the connections to Main Street, especially if the street cannot be passed through the Main St parking ramp.

Adams street CAN be put through the ramp to connect with Main, and I feel that it will be. However, I do not believe that Jefferson St. will be connected to main, nor that Flatley will extend past Adams.

Adams street CAN be put through the ramp to connect with Main, and I feel that it will be. However, I do not believe that Jefferson St. will be connected to main, nor that Flatley will extend past Adams.
There is no way that the ramp connection is going to look nice. It will not be very friendlly for the person that would like to walk from the KI to a point on the other side of the ramp. However, I believe that the ramp isn't going away anytime soon. I really feel that that space should be opened up and left for the pedestrian. Punch a hole through and let people walk from the KI. Washington Street is able to carry the auto traffic.

I seem to recall a while back that Flatley court might extent to Adams and then there would be an area for a public space beyond that and that maybe the ice rink that was talked about at the RC site will be located there, also able to connect the JC Penny building with the core of the Downtown. Does anyone seem to recall where this was mentioned?? I think that might create a nice place away from the river. I am trying to imagine what use that the JC Penny building will take. I sure hope that it will be a benefit and not an band-aid fix to fill a vacant building.

^^ Agreed, the Adams St. connection will be super-ugly. That ramp is like a fortress, and standing on Main and Adams, isn't a very inviting place to enter. The one good thing is that it is narrow, so hopefully when the mall comes down it will look better to the pedestrian, and the light at the end of the tunnel will not be far off.

I saw a plan that the Mayor showed me with a plaza exactly where you've described it. I suppose some of that is now up to what the eventual developer wants to do. IMO there does need to be something significant (A fountain, stature, monument, etc.) where Flatley will terminate there. That street is going to be VITALLY important. It will sort of be the logical extension for people walking down Washington St., it connects the Flatley monument on the boardwalk to (hopefully) some sort of gathering/sitting space. It has the chance to be designed from scratch to be pedestrian friendly. Really, that short bit of road could be the most vibrant bit of downtown.

Just thinking, seeing that the street will be named after Admiral Flatley, and that there's supposed to be a Flatley statue aligned with it on the boardwalk, what if they turned that street into some sort of "walk of heroes" or something like that where people could start at the river and go down to the plaza and back with monuments to other notable veterans along the way and a monument to all veterans at the Adams St end. Something like that would encourage people to move into the downtown from the river, but still over a manageable distance so that people of all ages could do it. If you designed the street for something like that from the beginning, it could really fit into the area very well.

link (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071128/GPG03/711280643/1247)

Posted November 28, 2007

Smet Construction proposes office, retail building for Larsen Co. site in Green Bay

$4.8 million project to be completed by October 2008

By Richard Ryman
rryman@greenbaypressgazette.com


Development of the Larsen Co. site is poised to take a big step with a proposal by Smet Construction Co. to build a three-story retail and office building on the corner of Broadway and Dousman Street in Green Bay.


The Redevelopment Authority on Tuesday agreed to finance the $4.8 million project, which is to be completed by October 2008.


Smet proposes a three-story, 39,000-square-foot building on the northeast corner. The developer anticipates a retail tenant on the first floor and office tenants on the second and third floors. Smet has verbal agreements for the first and third floors. The identities of the potential tenants were not revealed because they have not signed leases.


"This is a significant first step," said Rob Strong, city planning director and member of the Larsen project governing board. "It's certainly highly visible. It is the most prominent corner in the district."


Paul Belschner of Smet said they hoped to have leases signed within the next month.


Terms of the agreement with the RDA, which must be approved by the City Council, call for a combination of loans and tax increment finance district funding provided by the city. Smet agreed to a minimum $4.2 million assessed valuation.


"(Smet is) willing to spec some space in the building. That puts them at some risk," said Strong, explaining the city's participation.


"They are the right players that we want in here," said Mayor Jim Schmitt.


Smet will purchase the corner from On Broadway Inc., which owns the 22-acre Larsen site. The amount of the sale was not available Tuesday.


On Broadway paid $3.5 million for the former vegetable-processing factory, which will be parceled and sold for redevelopment projects. Its purchase was backed by the city.


Plans call for converting the property to housing, some of which would be first-floor live-work units, art spaces and public gathering spaces facing Broadway.


On Broadway's first sale was to Vincent Urban Walker & Associates, which is renovating the building at 300 Dousman St., immediately east of the Smet site.

^^

Just thinking, seeing that the street will be named after Admiral Flatley, and that there's supposed to be a Flatley statue aligned with it on the boardwalk, what if they turned that street into some sort of "walk of heroes" or something like that where people could start at the river and go down to the plaza and back with monuments to other notable veterans along the way and a monument to all veterans at the Adams St end. Something like that would encourage people to move into the downtown from the river, but still over a manageable distance so that people of all ages could do it. If you designed the street for something like that from the beginning, it could really fit into the area very well.

^^I like this idea especially if Flatley Court cannot connect to Main Street.

It seems odd, though, because it looks like the Pine St Parking Ramp is designed for an auto entrance right where Flatley Ct would extend to if the street grid was restored (this part of the parking ramp is only a couple years old). Oddly enough I even have a photo of it. (http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/DSCN1727.jpg) (the JC Penny building is on the left side of the narrow "alley") and on the right side of the photo looks like the openings of the ramp are designed for cars to enter at the ground level.

A couple of problems:

I've attached an MSN shot of the area below, and colored the Flatley Ct. alignment in blue and the Jefferson St. alignment in red.

1) As you see, Jefferson runs straight into the Penny's building. Worse, if I remember right, the portion of the Pine St. ramp that aligns with Jefferson comes straight down from the second level, so that the entire ramp would need to be reconfigured to push Jefferson through. You'd have to offset Jefferson to the east (to align with where the easternmost entrance is on Pine), but even then I think you'd have to do major modifications to how that ramp works.

2) Flatley also runs right into the Penny's building. For better or worse, I think that building is being re-used, not removed (and to be honest, on the scale of things, and considering that I'm not too sure there's an elegant way to put Jefferson through, this does not bother me).

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/row.jpg

The more of the old mall that can be scraped off, IMHO, the better. I know that I am whistling 'Dixie' on this, but I even would go as far as building a new 10-20 floor building to replace the office space in the former Boston Store and restore that part of Pine St. It served its purpose well for a quarter of a century, but it is indeed time to move on.

In an unrelated item, did anyone stop in at one of the two PIMs (Public Information Meetings) that WisDOT held on their planned US 41 upgrades earlier this week? Examining the maps that they had set up, I counted 24(!) roundabouts and ZERO(!) signals at the various street and street/ramp intersections that that project will affect. WOW!

Mike

^^ Well, I think everyone would agree that the more of the mall that can be taken down, and the more of the streets that can be put though, the better. And if 10-20 story buildings would just grow on their own if you wanted them to, that'd be nice. The obvious problem is finding someone to pay for all that. Oh well, I still think we can make good progress with the parts proposed to be taken down now, and hopefully this will set a trend for the future.

I realize that this is a skyscraper forum, but I don't really think that tall buildings are necessary, or even desirable. They look nice from a distance, but that's about it. What's more important, in my opinion, is what's happening on the ground level. Few European cities have a skyline, proving that they are not a needed ingredient for vibrant urbanism. I think it's far better to have a multitude of three story buildings that are accessible, pedestrian friendly, and architecturally interesting than a handful of 10-20 story buildings that are imposing, massive, and slightly disproportionate in our city.

Take the city of Boston, for example. It has a downtown business district that has many 10-40 story tall buildings. Nobody lingers there after the close of business because it's not a pleasant urban environment. It's a necessary one, of course, because Boston needs that concentration as one of the centers of the financial industry. However, the parts of Boston that do have a mix of businesses of various types, with restaurants, retail, law firms, doctor offices, accountants, bookstores, etc. have lower buildings, between 3 and 6 floors. They are at a more human scale, they don't block out the sun, and they're much more pleasant to be in. Since there are more buildings, there's a more interesting architectural fabric to the place.

PS. How do you get those images on MSN? I just went to their TerraServer page, and the imagery they have of Green Bay dates to 1992 and still shows the Prange's Parking Ramp where the River Lofts are...

I was thinking more on the lines of space to replace that which would be lost should the old Boston Store building be removed. It would certainly have to be on a smaller footprint and, of course, that means needing more floors. And yes, I realize that it would cost money. I just consider that old department store building to be badly 'misplaced' as a stand-alone structure.

Mike

A couple of problems:

2) Flatley also runs right into the Penny's building. For better or worse, I think that building is being re-used, not removed (and to be honest, on the scale of things, and considering that I'm not too sure there's an elegant way to put Jefferson through, this does not bother me).


Maybe I have Flatley Ct shifted too far "south" in my model, but it seems to me it lines up with the "entrance" to the ramp, the one from the photo I posted above.

I'm not advocating putting Jefferson Street through the ramp, I know that won't work.

My modeled street grid and pine st ramp entrance is roughly based on the city's plan from about 2000 (the one that I think kicked off the lawsuit from the former mall owners).

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/20071129downtown_street_GridPineStE.jpg

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/GBMasterPlanCity20002.jpg

As for Pine Street, sorry BayLake but in an ideal world you should have razed the old Boston Store building, recycled the rubble, and the city should have put Pine Street through. Then BayLake could have built a new much more architecturally-pleasing, significant, "downtowny" structure instead. This would have left a large block for a public square, maybe a little parking, some greenery (http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/20071129downtown_street_Grid_NoBayL.jpg).

One other idea I had is similiar to the "Walk of Heros" for Flatley Ct to honor the veterans....ANother thing that would be cool downtown is a "Heritage Plaza" of sorts, which would celebrate the many different cultural heritages of peopole who live in the area...statues, art, that sort of thing.

I think we all agree that in an ideal world Pine would have been put through. I know I would have. It was even discussed at some level. However, it is not certain that Baylake would have built downtown at all if they had to build new construction, and it's doubtful that APAC would be down. So I guess if there's going to be a sin downtown, I'm not going to get too upset about one that brought over 1,000 workers into the area. Hopefully one day the situation downtown will improve to where that building's existence can be revisited.

I feel somewhat the same about Penny's. In an ideal world the streets would be put back through. But if being able to reuse that building can mean bringing people down, I'm not going to be too heartbroken. I'd say that's even less useful than if Pine were through, as the Flatley, Jefferson connection doesn't really go anywhere, or align anything but itself. Again, it would still be more grid restored and more streetfront, but if they have something useful for that structure, I'm not going to be let down too much.

Finally, Nativist, the debate about building heights is an interesting one. I've not been to Boston, but there are many downtowns with tall buildings that aren't great. However, that isn't necessarily because there are tall buildings there. There are many CBDs with tall buildings that are very vibrant places (Chicago, New York, Minneapolis, etc...). It's all about what you do with it.

Personally, I'm a fan of tall buildings (this is, as you said, a skyscraper forum, after all!) and think one or two here in GB would do well to help downtown's image problem. That said, where I'd agree with you is that tall buildings aren't a necessary part of a successful urban area. For instance, does Astor Place have to be 17 floors to be a successful use of its site? I don't think so, so long it contributes to density in the area and has the right mix of publicly accessible, ground-level uses. I don't think there's many people who'd claim that the Bellin Building is too short for it's site.

So in short, the most important thing is increasing density and getting the right street-level environment. Additionally, IMO, height is not a force opposed to vibrancy, and seeing that I like tall buildings and think one or two would make a positive statement, I'm hoping to see them happen.

About MSN, if your at msn.com, click on Maps & Directions to open their maps utility, or visit: http://maps.live.com/ The bird's eye option is especially cool!

Right, just curious as to why the ramp was designed like that. Seemed like that was the intention to run Flatley St into the ramp.

The downside to this (besides what you mentioned about razing even part of the JC PEnney building) is that the street views would not be as enticing if the visible terminus was a lousy parking ramp. You want the view to be inviting and enticing in order to draw people to walk or go there. Imagine being a visitor, standing on the waterfront and looking east down Flately St...."hmmm, should I walk that way and explore? Ah no, doesn't look good" The parking ramp would be a focal point that's just not inviting for a pedestrian especially. Now, going with the City's most recent plan, that being a water fountain or something cool, now that would tend to draw people in to mozy down and check stuff out, even if they're not looking to buy something at the shops along the way.

So with everything there is, of course, pros and cons.

Actually, I think Chicago's a better example of what I was talking about... I think most people prefer being in Lincoln Park than along Dearborn in the Loop. What we're looking for is some kind of combination of the two, since we all seem to want downtown to be residential, a center of business, have some retail, and to be recreational destination. I'm not opposed to skyscrapers, and I welcome Astor Place and perhaps something on Site 4, but I do think that what happens at street level is more important in forming a vital urban experience.

I'm really scratching my head about this connection between KI and the riverfront...

Danillo, I think that it must not work on my Mac for whatever reason; which is a shame since I'm sure we've all been dissatisfied with Google's satellite coverage of this area!

Did I read correctly, is GB getting a Trader Joes? If so, what part of Ashwaubenon will it be located in?
Trader Joes would be a great catalyst for development. Again, this is the type of store that would really turn the downtown around. People would come from all around just to shop there, especially in blue collar GB, because TJ's prices are not steep at all.

Actually, I think Chicago's a better example of what I was talking about... I think most people prefer being in Lincoln Park than along Dearborn in the Loop. What we're looking for is some kind of combination of the two, since we all seem to want downtown to be residential, a center of business, have some retail, and to be recreational destination. I'm not opposed to skyscrapers, and I welcome Astor Place and perhaps something on Site 4, but I do think that what happens at street level is more important in forming a vital urban experience.

I'm really scratching my head about this connection between KI and the riverfront...

Danillo, I think that it must not work on my Mac for whatever reason; which is a shame since I'm sure we've all been dissatisfied with Google's satellite coverage of this area!
The MSN 'Live' maps work just fine on my Intel Mac Mini running MacOSX 10.4.11. Just gotta have the right application software downloaded to run it.

Mike

Sorry, I realize that this is really tangential, but I would like to figure this out... Here's what I'm seeing:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2344/2078265116_285571158c_o.jpg

and this:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2043/2078265118_5595ff0635_o.jpg

Am I missing something? I'm running an Intel iMac with Leopard.

Nativist,
Try click on this link (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=rdjzwf7nyxpx&style=o&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15772834&encType=1)

What do you get then?

P.S. I couldn't help but see the address you entered on your screen shot above..Not to be nosy, but is that yours? I used to live at 1435 S Van Buren just across the block. I miss a lot about that neighborhood. It was so central to everything, the trees were big, the architecture was pretty good, very high character neighborhood.

Oof, I'd make a very poor secret agent! We love it here. It's probably the only house on Jackson Street with a view of the river, owing to how Quincy Street ends a block up. It's quiet, convenient, and it satisfies most of my personal criteria for a good place to live: we can walk to buy groceries, get coffee, bike to work along the Fox River Trail, get ice cream, go to the park, etc. It would drive me crazy to have to hop into a car to do those things.

I followed your link, and arrived at a page that looks identical to the second one that I posted above. When I enter something into those fields: "Neville Museum" and "Green Bay, Wisconsin" I get this:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2170/2078613628_62fcd63cce_o.jpg

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/images/smilies/bash.gif

There is good progress on the River Center site. A large crane has been on site for several days now, and the excavators are constantly at work. The steel framework for the two floors at the top of the building which used to be the oldest section of the Younkers building is being installed. It is exciting to see so much work on the site. I am still very surprised that with the start of construction as well as the time span this project has been around, that we have yet to see an updated render.

Has anyone noticed if any of the current work is being done on the Astor Place site? The crane seems to be more in that vicinity than in the River Center's.

City OKs 3-story project at Broadway and Dousman

By Paul Srubas
psrubas@greenbaypressgazette.com

A three-story retail and office building will go up at Broadway and Dousman Street by next fall, thanks in part to a $3 million loan from the city and Redevelopment Authority to the developer, Smet Construction Co.


The City Council approved of the deal Tuesday by an 8-4 vote. Aldermen Guy Zima, Gary Kriescher, Andy Nicholson and Tom DeWane cast the dissenting votes.

Under the agreement, the city and RDA will loan Smet $3 million at 5.5 percent interest, to be repaid over 20 years. They also will loan the developers $850,00 for development costs to be paid back through tax incremental financing and a no-interest loan of $725,000 to be repaid in a lump sum at the end of a year. The RDA also will lease parking space to the development for $1 a year for 20 years.

Smet proposes a three-story, 39,000-square-foot building on the northeast corner. The developer anticipates a retail tenant on the first floor and office tenants on the second and third floors. Smet has verbal agreements for the first and third floors. The identities of the potential tenants were not revealed because they have not signed leases.

Zima blasted the plan, calling it a “sweetheart deal” and “socialism for the rich.”

Council President Chad Fradette blasted Zima for condemning the use of TIF money to encourage development and accused him of wanting to turn the entire downtown into green space.

Alderman Tom Weber also defended the deal, saying the city needed to “invest in the creation of wealth.”

Mayor Jim Schmitt disagreed with Zima’s contention that the city should stop subsidizing downtown development and focus its energies instead on building in the industrial parks on the outskirts of town.

“WS Packaging bought out in our industrial park because of what we are doing downtown,” Schmitt said.

Zima moved to amend the deal to require TIF paybacks in less than 13 years, rather than the 20 years allowed in most city TIF deals. That measure failed by the same 8-4 margin eventually reached for the original deal.

Why is it always the same clowns trying to stop the progress in downtown. It's not like this entire loan is free. The majority of it is @ 5.5% interest, which is fairly close to market price. I'm glad Schmitt and Fradette at least are able to restore some sense to the city council.

Interesting tid bits...

12/11/07 RDA Meeting - 4. Discussion and action on the River Center redevelopment project and Astor Place.

Recommendation: To be presented at meeting.

12/11/07 Advisory Meeting - 4. Request by Ald. Zima for an update and action on the long expired agreement and default by Vetter Denk as to the development of the Flatley Park site.

12/12/07 Economic Development Meeting - 1. Consideration and possible action on offer to purchase the retail space in the Cherry Street Ramp, from Sara Investment Real Estate, LLC.

Oh yes, and be sure to attend Good Morning Downtown on 12/11/07 at 7:30 am at the Meyer Theatre...

Some random replies:

R/C
BearGB, welcome to this forum! Keep on posting your observations. I too, been watching the progress on RC. I am happy to see steel beams hoisted high into the air! The other morning it was very windy and cold, there were dudes up there walking the narrow steel beams way up there, pretty cool. Can't wait to see how this all shapes up. My gosh we've been talking talking talking about this for so long!!

City Council
Shoot, I guess I should have watched the city council on the public channel the other night...I almost did but then thought to myself, "what the hell kind of a loser am I watching city council meetings on TV????" So then I tried to do something cool instead...Looks like I missed an interesting debate, though. I am interested to know exactly where Zima is coming from. I mean, I do agree with his ideas for "more green space" downtown. I think this could be done right, designed for a downtown, lord knows we need something...Like Danillo's render of the BayLake or soemthing else. We sacrificed the little Flatley Park for the Astor tower, now we really need to replace that green space with some new, I agree with Zima there.
I would like to know what other thoughts he and the other city councils have as far as their consistent "no" votes on anything that requires investment in the downtown. My primary question is why they seem to think it's OK to subsidize tax dollars on the fringe of teh city, but not OK for the downtown?

Vetter/City agrement
Well, as we saw in an earlier post, Vetter has indeed defaulted on his agreement for the Flatley Park site and it is the council's responsibility to follow up on that. I have a sense that it's going to be more fireworks. Should be interesting. Clearly Vetter needed the Flatley space for the "staging" area for the R/C developments....How will this all shake out?

Well that's all I have for now...I'm glad the Larsen site seems to be developing right along.

I would like to know what other thoughts he and the other city councils have as far as their consistent "no" votes on anything that requires investment in the downtown. My primary question is why they seem to think it's OK to subsidize tax dollars on the fringe of teh city, but not OK for the downtown?


My thoughts exactly.

I truely believe that Zima wants to raze the whole downtown area and have everyone move out to the highways. You would think a guy who's sole political platform is lower taxes would love redevelopment dollars that will eventually push down the tax rates of his constituents.

I understand the need to keep a close eye on these projects and their developers, but harassment constant pessimism isn't a way to bring new investments and business to the city's core.

I'm glad to see that I didn't kill this thread permanently! I don't think there's a consistent philosophy behind Zima's nihilism. He's happy to try to take credit for the changes on Broadway, despite having fought them at every opportunity. More green space? Didn't he have a problem with Licht Park, or am I misremembering?

Personally, I don't think we need any more than we have. There's Licht Park (which is an excellent festival site), the area below the Fox River apartments on the West Side and the Neville, and then the entire East bank along Washington St. and Cherry St. We barely make use of the greenspace we have. What we need is commercial and recreational activity. Zima is very shortsighted, and it probably pays off for him, because his constituents reward him for it. Fortunately, what I hear is that he won't run again as this last term locked in his pension, I hope that's true.

There's enough green space on the West side. When it comes to green spaces downtown I think the East side is lacking. I'd like to see more but smaller pieces. The lot in front of Baylake City Center has been mentioned here and that may be a good spot for the east side. I'm afraid that if a plan comes up it might have too big of a footprint. Green spaces don't produce any commerce and have limited use by the general public so they don't need to be large. A small courtyard with two maybe three tables. smaller sites, but more of them. There's a small courtyard on Cherry St. that's nestled between Divine Temple church and Family Services by the State building. It's open to the public and I have seen what appeared to be office workers (they were wearing office attire) sitting there at lunch time. There's also a small table at the corner of Jefferson and Cherry by City Hall that gets used during the summertime.

It would be nice to have more places like these downtown, but if they're too big, it's wasted space.

this is from a site online that has all the projects bidding in the green Bay Area. i don't belong to it so the details are slim but i did find this that is a little interesting

http://www.bidclerk.com/project.270808.html

Project ID: Project Name:
270808 Available to subscribers only. Sign Up Now!

Project Type: Building Use: Reported: Status: Private / Public: Location:
New Construction
Site Work Multi-Residential 11/12/2007 Pre-Construction Private Green Bay, WI

Project Address: Available to subscribers only. Sign Up Now! Bid Date: Est. Start Date: February 2008


Description: Project Documents (0):
Available to subscribers only. Sign Up Now!
Site work and new construction of a condominium development in Green Bay. Working drawings call for the construction of a 17-story, 36-unit condominium building.

Completed construction documents are expected to be released by mid-December of 2007. The general contractor will then put the project out for preliminary pricing. No inquiries will be accepted at this time.
Map: Aerial Photo:


Divisions of Work:
General Requirements, Site Work -- Excavation, Paving, Landscaping, Grading, Fences & Gates, Termite Control, Concrete -- Cast-In-Place Concrete, Concrete Formwork, Concrete Reinforcement, Masonry / Stone -- CMU, Metals -- Structural Steel, Metal Decking, Metal Fabrications, Metal Framing, Wood / Plastics -- Carpentry, Casework, Millwork, Thermal / Moisture -- Roofing, Insulation, Caulking & Sealants, Flashing & Sheet Metal, Waterproofing, Doors / Windows -- Metal Doors & Frames, Wood Doors, Glazing, Access Doors, Storefronts, Hardware, Finishes -- Drywall, Plaster, Stucco, Paint, Tile, Carpet, Hardwood Flooring, VCT, Resilient Flooring, Specialties -- Signage, Toilet & Bath Accessories, Fire Extinguishers, Mailboxes, Equipment -- Residential Appliances, Security Entrance Systems, Furnishings -- Floor Mats, Blinds, Conveying Systems -- Elevators, Mechanical -- HVAC, Plumbing, Fire Protection, Electrical -- Wiring, Lighting, Telephone/Data Systems, Alarm Systems, Grounding

Project Contacts:

actually everything from the mall redevelopment to prestige towers to what seems to be the Grande Union are all on this site. doesn't tell you much but it does give estimated start dates

^^Gotta admire the developer's tenacity. Most others probably would have just given up by now and vanished.

So now the start date is February? We shall see, once again.

Thanks for digging that up, Roots!

Am I the only one that noticed several errors on that site. A 36 unit complex. I recall it being somewhere around 90. Also, the map shows it going on Webster Ave. Maybe its just like that because I'm not a member so it isnt giving me the full and accurate data, but I thought that was interesting.

^^ I did catch that it said 36 units. Strange, and calls into question how reliable all of that is, but interesting none-the-less.

I'm going to try to make RDA today to see the RC and AP updates.

I do believe this is Puant's favorite site, the Schauer & Schumacher (sp?) building, correct? Very cool. Apparently that area of downtown will be the steak district. Did anyone else get a chance to attend the meeting? Any interesting points not mentioned in the article?

Posted December 11, 2007


Steak, seafood restaurant to open downtown


Republic Steakhouse and Bar will open in March at 220 N. Adams St. in downtown Green Bay. The steak and seafood restaurant is owned by Patrick Neph, who also owns Pi nightclub.


The steakhouse announcement was one of several made during “Good Morning Downtown” event held this morning at the Meyer Theatre by Downtown Green Bay Inc.

Downtown Green Bay gave urban design awards to St. Francis Xavier Cathedral for restoration of its more than 100-year-old cathedral towers and to the owners of the Bellin Building for redevelopment of that property. Patrick Quinn, president of Downtown Green Bay Inc., received the Volunteer of the Year award.

David Feehan, president of the International Downtown Association, spoke about downtown myths and trends.

“Downtowns are about authentic experiences, not clever slogans,” Feehan said.

He said studies show that people actually spend more money in downtowns than in suburban shopping areas because of those experiences.

Also, he said, downtowns are the economic engines of most cities, returning $19 in revenue for every $1 invested.

Downtown Green Bay premiered a 2-minute promotional video produced by burnham richards advertising. Jeff Mirkes, executive director of Downtown Green Bay, said DVDs of the video will be distributed around the community, and it will be posted on You Tube.

— Richard Ryman/Press-Gazette

It was my understanding that the Republic was to be in the former Riesers Diamonds store on Adams (which is basically across from the Bay Lake Bank building. I am not sure if the address points to the S&S building, but I am fairly sure the rendering was of the Riesers building.

It was a nice listening sessions, a lot of the same stuff that has been brought up before, maybe I feel like I have known about these ideas and people in this discussion also know about these ideas that were talked about, but nothing mind shattering was brought up. It is nice knowing that there is starting to become an historical trend develop (in regards to downtown growth) in other cities that may someday trickle down to Green Bay.

Also announced was that the Bellin Building will soon be 100% occupied, and that the bar and eatery has recently opened. BTW it looks pretty impressive from street level.

S&S is on the 100 block of N. Adams (numbers count from Walnut). As GBSurveyor points out, the steak place is going in the Rieser's site.

-----

Just got back from RDA. Vetter presented an update on Astor Place. I always feel better about that after such a presentation because I get a better idea of all that goes into such a project, but the bottom line is that they feel they are to 70% of their sales goal to begin construction. So it all comes down to their ability to sell the additional about $5 million worth. Obviously if that were super easy it would have happened already, but at any rate, the RDA extended Vetter's option for the site for 6 months (which I suppose will come up at the next Council meeting).

Plans for River Center were also presented. Overall, I'm reasonably pleased. I'm not going to try too hard to explain what it looks like, because that's such a challenge to do but the highlights:

- From the river, it is very recognizably the same building. The portion over the pine street underpass has a totally different facade, but much of the rest looks the same but with more/better windows. I've always wanted that building to look like it does now but fixed up, so I was quite happy with the riverfront.

- The facade of the Children's museum looks like it could work well. I'm not too sure about the rest of the Washingon St. facade. The whole thing is only three floors, and the upper two are parking, so there's only so much you can do to make it look good. But that's a long stretch to be roughly the same height and parking. So to a degree it depends on how the storefronts look, but I wasn't crazy about it.

- That could all be mitigated by what they do with the "Phase two" portion of the project. But the reality is that the most they'll probably be able to add on is about 2 floors. Now, adding two well-designed floors could make a huge impact, but reading between the lines, I'd not be looking for phase two to happen any time soon. If I'm being honest, the upside to that is that if the mall site is going to feature a lot of commercial space and, well, how much new commercial can the area absorb? So if no commercial at River Center leads to more on the mall site, it may be for the best. But while it was hard to tell from the renderings, I'm not sure that the northern half of the River Center Washington St. facade will be too appealing. Again, the museum part looked better to me.

- As discussed earlier, there will be the mid-block gallery passageway connecting Wash. St. to the boardwalk. Also, there will be a plaza space adjacent to/part of the boardwalk which should be useful.

- One of the best things was the announced tenants. A family oriented restaurant run by the folks who run The Bar, and Kavarna. So that's two businesses by people who already know what they're doing, which is a good thing.

So overall I'm fairly pleased. I'm really happy with the part facing the river, and glad that the Prange's building will recognizably remain part of the riverfront.

Good Morning Downtown meeting
I thought it was good to hear from a nationally-known expert on downtowns that GB seems to be on the right track with many of its recent initiatives.

Many of the items brought up by the speaker today have been discussed on this board, obviously.... One of them we just recently hashed over was the issue of "green space". The speaker today mentioned how Chicago has "greened up" it's downtown not necessarily with large parks, but also with other types of green with planting boxes and that sort of thing. And you know, some of my recent trips to Chicago I recall how nice some of these were, particularly when there were large plant boxes separating the street from the sidewalk. These made the pedestrian experience not only much more pleasant, but also a lot "safer" feeling because there of the plant barrier between where you walked and where cars sped by. How nice would this be along Walnut or Main streets?

I was glad I went to the meeting this morning, many other things I'd like to touch on. but one thing that I thought was done really well was the new "Downtown is Calling" video that Jeff M. presented. Hopefully that will be online soon.

Danillo report on the RDA meeting
Hey Danillo, thanks for reporting on this. I too was curious. When you said they have to sell the "$5 million worth" you mean the retail on the lower floors? Or do you mean the residentail condos? (or both)? Since A'Bravo bailed out I don't recall what other sorts of things were mentioned as tenants go in the base of the tower. When you mentioned the possible tenants like Kavarna and The Bar, I assume you mean at R/C not Astor Place.

As for how much new commercial space the downtown might be able to absorb...To me it all comes back to what someone said a while ago about people being very "touchy-feely" about the downtown, and that many people need to actually SEE real progress before buying into it. Now that there is so much actual construction going on, I think more people are "seeing and believing". People I talk to are starting to think that these downtown plans are NOT just "farts in the wind" like so many plans of years past. So, what does that mean for how much new commercial will come downtown? Who knows, but I hope that many of our local businesses who left downtown years ago for the suburbs have now realized that the fringe ain't all it was cracked up to be..hopefully they realized their mistake and will move back downtown.

Am I the only one that noticed several errors on that site. A 36 unit complex. I recall it being somewhere around 90. Also, the map shows it going on Webster Ave. Maybe its just like that because I'm not a member so it isnt giving me the full and accurate data, but I thought that was interesting.

I'm not sure what's up with the # of units, but I think the map error might have something to do with there being no exact address, so Google Maps api just put the dot within the center of the given ZIP code, which is the most precise location given....My guess anyway.

Adams Street
I'm excited about ANY development on N. Adams St because to me, it is one of the few remaining "authentic" streetscapes left in the east side of the downtown. The Reiser's Diamond Vault building is very nice, due to the large parking lot across the street, it's just not quite as "enclosed" in a true downtown sense as the block just to the south were the S&S buildings are. But take nothing away from the exciting news that someone is putting that building back into some good use and getting this street back to life.

Can anyone provide source, backup stats, etc for this quote by the speaker today:

"Also, he said, downtowns are the economic engines of most cities, returning $19 in revenue for every $1 invested."

When you said they have to sell the "$5 million worth" you mean the retail on the lower floors? Or do you mean the residentail condos? (or both)? Since A'Bravo bailed out I don't recall what other sorts of things were mentioned as tenants go in the base of the tower. When you mentioned the possible tenants like Kavarna and The Bar, I assume you mean at R/C not Astor Place.

First, yes, Kavarna will be along the river in River Center, and the restaurant (owned by the people who own The Bar, but a very different place with a different name than The Bar) will be in a space that fronts Washington but also will have a significant frontage onto the plaza that's part of the boardwalk adjacent to River Center.

Regarding Astor Place, he did talk about, and seems to think they have a good lead on an organic grocer (no names named, but he did say they are based out of, I think, San Diego. Something like that.) and a few other related or complimentary retail tenants. So the $5 million has to be condo sales. It was kind of funny how he framed it as only needing to sell 6 units to make that happen, but of course, those are six of the most expensive units.

There was also an allusion to that if this doesn't work out it won't mean that the project is dead, but that it would have to be restructured.

Oh, a few other things that pop into my head as I think back to the meeting.

- Interestingly, some of the brick on Prange's is structural, so (obviously) must remain. These sections include the corners of the most prominant part of the remaining structure, which is part of why the design ended up how it has.

- HGA is in fact the architect that worked on River Center.

- Lots of cream colored brick. Obviously there's the existing brick on Prange's, which will be complimented by bronzed metal areas (looked nice to me). The rental lofts portion will also feature the same colors. Astor Place will evidentally also have the cream brick now (not sure if it will have the bronzed metal as well). So while I like the look, could that get to be cream brick overload?

- Eppstein Uhen Architects have been involved in the Astor Place project, I don't think so much as primary designers, but more to bring experience in pulling such a large project together.

- Some pretty nice lighting effects planned (please, oh please carry some of that over to Riverfront Lofts).

- There will also be space for a more upscale restaurant in River Center, occupying the base of the water-tower section. Sounded like they've been working with someone on that, but were not ready to announce who.

That's all I can think of for now.

On fox news tonight they had some pictures of the new river center. Click the link below and to the right of the video there is a window that says "Find out more/related items" click on that video. Some nice shots of the new childrens museum and river center. Cann't wait until its done!

http://www.myfoxnewisconsin.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=5188651&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1

Can anyone provide source, backup stats, etc for this quote by the speaker today:

"Also, he said, downtowns are the economic engines of most cities, returning $19 in revenue for every $1 invested."


I emailed David on this exact issue based on a comment posted on the pg website on the article about the good morning downtown meeting. Here is what I got.

A study was done in Des Moines IA by a Drake University economist, Dr. David Lawrence, in the early 1990s. It was commissioned by the Des Moines Development Corporation. I never saw the complete report, only a summary. Richard (Red) Brannan, who worked for DMDC, and later for the Greater Des Moines Partnership, has first hand knowledge of the research. I contacted Richard Clark, Des Moines City Manager, and he sent me a different study on TIF done by Dr. Lawrence. Lawrence died prematurely and Drake does not have his work. IDA is planning to develop a template or model this summer that any city can use to gauge the return it gets from its downtown. Stay tuned.

Thanks for the link, MCRyan. Couple thoughts:

Is that really how the parkign garage over the Children's Museum is going to look? Either they're doing a great job of disguising that or the render is making it much better looking that it's really going to be.

The shot of Kavarna looks really cool. My understanding after hearing the news report is that they are moving from their Broadway location--not adding a new location. Although that's a nice addition to River Center in reality it's a net zero for the downtown as a whole. I guess if they bring people to the river front it'll be a positive change.

The view from the river on this render looks kind of dark besides the Kavarna location. I must say I'm pleased with the way the site is going to turn out. But I'm still a little down about the fact that my favorite feature of the first render is missing--the grand glass atrium-looking area. That definitely brightened up the river front much more than the current look.

On the channel 11 report there was mention of a skywalk connecting Washington Street to the boardwalk. I'm guessing the guy was mistaken and maybe was referring to the street level gallery corridor. Anyone know for sure?

Overall, from what I've seen I give it a thumbs up. Looking forward to seeing the finished product. Hopefully this spring when River Center takes shape and the home shopping season begins, interest in Astor Place will propel the presales past the $5MM mark.

^^ I think the children's museum portion of the parking will look quite nice. It's going to be covered in glass and should be nicely lit, and I think will be quite modern, clean, and nice. A great visual draw for the children's museum. I'm more worried about the northern half of the ramp facade, and having such a long block be pretty much all the same height (though they did seem to do what they could to break it up, it's still a ramp). But really, two thumbs up from me on the facade for the museum.

I heard nothing about a skywalk, and really am not sure where one could be. I can only conclude that the reporter was confused.

* He must have been talking about the galleria. I haven't seen the newest renderings in any size larger than that fox news video and it's difficult to discern, but the last one I saw had the ramp above the children's museum screened in with the same ironwood being used on the boardwalk. It seemed like an elegant solution that both made the ramp attractive and visually tied it in with the river.

* I think Kavarna moving to a new space will end up being a net plus, because something will move into the space they're vacating.

* I echo the wish that River Front Lofts were better illuminated, it looks so vacant most of the time...

* The organic grocer thing sounds pretty solid, from what I've heard. The grocery includes a small restaurant and some other stuff, it's a pretty ambitious plan. There's definitely a lot riding on their ability to sell the next 5 million dollars of condos.

^^ I think the children's museum portion of the parking will look quite nice. It's going to be covered in glass and should be nicely lit, and I think will be quite modern, clean, and nice. A great visual draw for the children's museum. I'm more worried about the northern half of the ramp facade, and having such a long block be pretty much all the same height (though they did seem to do what they could to break it up, it's still a ramp). But really, two thumbs up from me on the facade for the museum.

I heard nothing about a skywalk, and really am not sure where one could be. I can only conclude that the reporter was confused.

Really? You guys like this? Oh man....I mean, I know it's all subjective, a matter of taste....but I really don't like the way the Children's Museum looks. Sorry. TO me it's absolutely hideous. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned or whatever.....if that's the case then why do I like lots of other contemporary designs I see?....heck I LIKE the astor tower design and I love what a lot of other cities are doing.......but this museum design just doesn't do it for me....The upper part of this squatty little building is nothing more to me than a charade, cheaply and ineffectively masking the parking and giving the street that blank uninteresting faceless look that we're trying to get rid of in the downtown.... It might be new & clean and "well-lit" but sorry, to me some lights on a blank wall just isn't what I call "architecture". Now, I don't want to take ANYTHING away from the Children's Museum, I'm very very happy they're stikign with the downtown and patiently waiting to move in. Heck I just drove my 6-year old daughter past the site today and pointed out to her that this will be the museum we've been waiting for...>I just wish it didn't have to look like this on the outside...I'm sure the inside will be great, though.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/20071212ChildrensMuseumRender.jpg

I do like the river side, though. I don't go to Kavarna often but I really like the diggs they're in right now. I was hoping they'd be able to have both running.
I like what I see below just fine:
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/20071212Kavarna.jpg

I'm also a little disappointed that the "old section" of the river building no longer shows the 2 new floors added on the top. Most of the earlier renders (http://picasaweb.google.com/gBayPacker/Plans) showed a taller building, now it's shown as the same height as it is right now. Well, I guess the market just wan't there.
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/20071212RiverCenter.jpg

Too bad they didn't save the facade of the Pranges building on the corner of Pine and Washington. They could have gutted everything behind it and rebuilt new behind it and have kept something with some history that would have given the downtown some continuity with its past.

I know, they said the foundation was bad. The technology is there to work around the foundation problems. They could have braced the facade and replaced the foundation. Perhaps though, they just wanted this downsized glass box. Here's hoping it will create some memories for future generations that those of us from prior generation had of old downtown.

Guy is absolutely correct, Vetter has been given enough time and has failed to do anything that he said he would. His feet dragging is costing the city, let him have the project that he has somewhat started but it's time to look for someone else for the rest of the space. But the mayor has some kind of under table agreement with Vetter and that will never happen. SO we get extension after extension and downsizing after downsizing of the projects.

^^

I'm not sure that's it at all. Vetter has brought more to downtown just in ways of his plans than have been brought in quite some time. I fail to necessarily see how it is costing the city. There are numerous other open sites and buildings all of which have sat vacant for quite some time. I know this will now be a much more sought after piece of land, but with that comes a price tag. Deep down, I think the mayor wants something good for the city and sees that it is so close to a reality that he is willing to give it 6 more months. Opening up the land to other development options would only delay the construction of anything on that site for quite some time. I'm not saying Vetter "deserves" the extension, but I think the risk vs. reward here is definitely in the city's favor.

Guy is absolutely correct, Vetter has been given enough time and has failed to do anything that he said he would. His feet dragging is costing the city, let him have the project that he has somewhat started but it's time to look for someone else for the rest of the space. But the mayor has some kind of under table agreement with Vetter and that will never happen. SO we get extension after extension and downsizing after downsizing of the projects.

Yes, please enlighten me on how this is costing the city. I could see if there was 5 other developers jumping at the chance to develop those properties, but the unfortunate reality is that there isn't.

Developer offers to buy retail space in downtown Green Bay

Property is on ground level of the Cherry Street parking ramp

By Richard Ryman
rryman@greenbaypressgazette.com

A Middleton real estate developer with investments in the Green Bay market offered Wednesday to buy the retail space on the ground level of the Cherry Street parking ramp.

The Green Bay Economic Development Authority approved selling the property to Sara Investment Real Estate Inc. for $300,000, or about $25.45 per square foot. The agreement requires city council approval.

"This is a big step forward for downtown Green Bay. That is such a visible corner," said Derek Lord, deputy economic development director.

Sara Investment owns 1525-1551 Park Place and 2154-2164 S. Ridge Road, both in Ashwaubenon, a shopping center at the junction of East Main and East Mason streets, and the shopping center on the southeast corner of Military and Shawano avenues.

Glen Berhow, senior advisor with Sperry Van Ness in Green Bay, said possible tenants include "what fits downtown:" convenience stores, restaurants, dry cleaners or coffee shops/bakeries.

He said finding a tenant should not be difficult.

"With the vibrancy we are getting downtown, this is a no-risk kind of deal," he said.

Berhow said Sara Investment would like to start construction in February or March.

The city has been asking $33 a square foot for the property for two years. It has had several offers on the property, but none approaching the asking price.

"It just isn't going to happen at $33," said EDA member Michael Borley.

Authority Chairman Gary Sikich said he was pleased that Sara Investment offered to buy both the Walnut and Washington street sides of the available space.

He said some past offers included only part of the 11,789 square feet.

OK, the "naysayers" are going to criticise that instead of $33 the city is "only" going to get $25.45. Not ideal --but hey, that's life in the real estate market sometimes. Better to fill that space and get SOMETHING in there to generate revenue and MORE IMPORTANTLY try to make that visible corner look better, instead of the empty cavernous space it is right now.

Really? You guys like this? Oh man....I mean, I know it's all subjective, a matter of taste....but I really don't like the way the Children's Museum looks. Sorry. TO me it's absolutely hideous...[/IMG]

First, those screen grabs you posted don't really do it very much justice. The facade isn't a blank wall with some lights, but more a semi-transparent screen that will be backlit. It's pretty clean looking. As with most designs like this, a lot will come down to the quality of the materials used and the maintenance. But for me, it seemed very light and appealing and fun. I do share the concern that it all looks too squat, we'll see how it comes out.

Regarding the ramp space, it think this is a very positive sign. Having storefronts there will dramatically transform that part of Washington St. and bring a human scale to the ramp. One thing I really like is that someone is essentially buying it on speculation (no tenants signed) because they like what is happening downtown and feel this is a good business decision.

Many people continually complain that nothing is happening downtown, but here is yet another example where people who actually do business are showing that this isn't the case. People who are putting down their own money in a free market because they think downtown Green Bay is a place were they can do business and make money. That's an enormously important sign. I've posted things like this in the past, but here's a list off the top of my head of significant investments of private money into the downtown just in the past few years:

Johnson Bank
St. Brendan's Inn
Renovation of Quality Inn and Suites
Renovation of the Bellin Building
This coming sale of the ramp retail
Baylake Bank building
APAC moving into Baylake
Nicolet Bank building
Riverfront Lofts
River Center (under construction)
ShopKo's donation to the City Deck
Archetype's renovation of the church they're in now
The Firehouse renovating that old firehouse

That's just off the top of my head, and doesn't include other significant public buildings that have added to the downtown such as the KI Center and Meyer Theater (both of which helped create momentum for these other projects). I'm not going to try to figure out the math, but that's many tens of millions of dollars in private investment in the downtown, not to mention the new jobs created or brought into the area.

Are we where we need to be yet? No way, but conditions downtown are DRAMATICALLY better now than they were when Paul Jadin took office. Schmitt has worked to build on this momentum. Certain leaders can bury their head in the sand and pretend that nothing has changed and nothing is getting better, but the important thing is that good business people are putting down good money that shows this isn't the case.

Selling this ramp retail space and completing River Center will make a further huge impact. If we can work together and make a significant building on the Flatley site (whether it's exactly Astor Place or not) and the Grand Union realities, I think we'll have crossed a tipping point past which people's impression of downtown will reflect the progress that has been happening already for some time.

"With the vibrancy we are getting downtown, this is a no-risk kind of deal," he said.
These are the kinda statements that keep me optomistic about the direction of Green Bay. And I agree, the city held out long enough waiting for their initial target price, but when it became obvious that they were not going to get that, they sold to the next highest bidder. I am curious on what will eventually fill this space.

I would just like to add my 2 cents. All this news is so positive, it is a great New Years start. :cheers:

I as probably most of us would agree that it seems like it takes a decade to get things moving. John Vetter is not our enemy, he is basically sticking his neck out on this one. Only being 5 Million away seems like a long shot to me, however as momentum continues to swing, this thing looks more realistic, people with the cash are going to see this. As with any investment, if it was easy we would all be rich. It seems as if some of us have to work more to understand this theory, maybe even point fingers and place blame on others.

Maybe other developers will surface, maybe it is safer now, who know. I still know that we have a ton of underutilized land downtown. So opportunities do exist, and by the way, the reality is that they are using Flatley Park for the staging area is only to be expected. Once Astor construction commences and the "City Deck" begins there is going to be some serious action taking place.

Does the ramp space being spoken for mean that we will see an immediate build out? Another positive is that the buyer is going to purchase the entire space, not just the prime location.

Now if we could somehow find a way for the Nicolet Bank Drive thru to re-locate and find a use for site 4 we will be in development heaven... or is that to religious???

Sorry for the random thoughts...

Do you mean the Nicolet Drive Through in the ramp? My understanding is that Nicolet owns that space. The space that recently sold is the area immediately South of that. I think it's a great location, though I do think we have enough coffeehouses at this point and I hope that they'll find something else. We don't need Kavarna, the Daily Buzz, and a third within three blocks of one another. A bakery sounds promising, pizza parlor? Ice Cream? Is it too late for another Kaap's?

Some better shots, thanks to Jeff Mirkes.

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/rc-1.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/rc-2.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/rc-3.jpg

One thing I noticed looking at these was that the smoke stack and the metal that's below it is still shown here, which I am quite pleased with.

Since the shots I got are incredibly high resolution, I thought I'd post a few detail shots to show some of the, well, details of the facades. I think some of the choices, particularly the ribbing on the bronzed metal and the look of the glass facing of the parking, could really help make this look nice in person.

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/rc-4.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/rc-5.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/rc-6.jpg

Do you mean the Nicolet Drive Through in the ramp? My understanding is that Nicolet owns that space. The space that recently sold is the area immediately South of that. I think it's a great location, though I do think we have enough coffeehouses at this point and I hope that they'll find something else. We don't need Kavarna, the Daily Buzz, and a third within three blocks of one another. A bakery sounds promising, pizza parlor? Ice Cream? Is it too late for another Kaap's?

Yes I mean the Bank drive through. I assume that they own it, I just feel like it could be in a better place, Im not quite sure where, but where it is now sort of wrecks the continuity of the block, when filled in. No facts here, but just an observation is that the bank drive thru takes up roughly a 1/3 of the block. There must be a better spot for it.

As for uses, does anyone know these guys? what sort of developments do they cater to?

Some Ideas... Barber Shop? pancheros? qdoba? some small gift / cards / confectionary center, in addition to the ones mentioned above, maybe we need another bar?

Danillo- Thanks for the pictures. I still cant tell though, but does RC actually connect to the apartments that are currently being built or is there a walkway between them.

For the space in the parking ramp, one thing that no one has mentioned yet is a grocery store. I know there will be a organic food grocery in AP, but for everyone else in the area there really isnt a convenient grocery store except for Save-A-Lot, which I have heard several people say they dont like going into. The ramp would be a perfect location. For all of the housing we currently have downtown it is all within 5 blocks of the ramp.

As far as what the organic grocery could be in AP, Danillo said he heard they were out of San Diego, which means it could be either Whole Foods or Jimbos Naturally, both San Diego based.

Hi, I'm new to the forum, but not new to Green Bay. I have grown up in Green Bay my whole life. I have tried to be very optimistic about what they are doing to the riverfront. While its nice to see stuff start happening, i cant help but feel as though they are taking the wrong approach. I love the boardwalk idea, but it doesn't really seem as though they are putting enough stuff on that's going to continually attract people. I can picture myself going down there once or twice to check everything out, but there really wont be enough to keep me coming back. As a 21 yr old and part of the future generation of the city, i can only picture this boardwalk being dead in 5 to 10 yrs. I can also say i am disappointed to see that they haven't used this opportunity to build a large upscale hotel along the riverfront. It's a shame that packers opponents still travel from Appleton because green bay doesn't have a hotel to accommodate them. I am disappointed in the city for letting Vetter take too much time on this project. There has to be a better idea then what Vetter has come up with....right?

^^
It takes much more than an idea to make it reality. I understand (and feel) your frustration on the delays, but it takes a lot of $$, time, and politics in this town to make a building like Vetter is working on a reality.

As for the boardwalk, I don't think we'll see the problem of it being dead in 5-10 years. If DT GB were like it was 2 years ago and they built only the boardwalk I would hold the same reservations. However, once some of these projects start taking shape and the foot traffic increases (hopefully) I think it is only a matter of time before other developers start seeing the potential of the riverfront. Remember that we have to start somewhere, and I think the "City Deck" is a pretty good initiative by the city to draw some attention to downtown.

About to head down to Washington St. myself to have a :cheers:

OK OK, the Children's Museum looks much better now that I seem more detail..the Fox News video just didn't have enough resolution. I retract some of my earlier comments.

That said, I'm still hoping for the "phase 2" which as I understand would be a couple more floors on top of the museum. ALso I'm hoping that another "phase" could still add floors on top of the existing cream-brick building. Any chance of that still happening? That would really improve our skyline, plus I think that could be some awesome space to be in overlooking everything. Or else how about some sort of rooftop green space? (this is not only a fad for its aethetics but also makes for energy efficient design..Google the "Chicago City Hall green rooftop" as an example, it saves a lot of energy and $$.

Another thought I had--this may be crazy but that's never stopped me before---but about those panels around the upper floors of the children's museum....I had this vision of parts of it being some sort of LCD display, kind of like the "ring" around Miller Park or a jumbotron but not in an obnixious way. . It might sound gaudy and maybe it would be, but it would be for children and they already have the colored pillars, so why not?. So this LCD display could show off whatever the current museum display is. Maybe the panels could wrap around the corner of the building. So for example, if they have a jungle theme going for a few months, the LCD TVs would have cool videos and pics of tigers and stuff....Text. Upcoming events. Whatever. ..I know I said above that lights don't make architecture, but this could be done really cool, a draw particularly for the kids, and for the rest of us it would just make for a happenin' looking place...in a way sort of like the "tickers" on buildings in NYC only instead of boring old stock numbers they'd have cool videos of pyramids or polar bears roaming the arctic or whatever is currently at the museum. Like I said, just another crazy idea..probably cost-prohibitive and gaudy, I dunno. I'm going out of my mind trying to think of ways to make that upper level parkign space blend into the site and look good.

But all that said, Again, I do like it better now that I see the detail, so I'll take back some of my earlier comments! :righton:

Justinsane
Welcome! Glad you joined us.
As for the boardwalk being a constant draw...It's not something that everyone will feel the need to hang out on every day, especially if you don't work or live or shop down here. But it fits well into the "urban fabric" for those who do shop, live, work, and visit the downtown. So many factors play into this...the location at the head of one of the businest state trails in the 3rd largest city in the state, in the heart of the downtown. It will do fine as a place people will hang out at for a long time. Maybe not the same people over and over, day in and day out, but lots of different people. I don't think it will be dead (except in the dead of winter).

I do agree with your statement that it needs to connect more things. But as someone ele pointed out, that's another reason to build it: to attract more down there. The "site 4" on the corner of Walnut and Washington, for example, could turn into a prime spot for something really nice, maybe even the upscale hotel you mentioned (we can hope, right?).

Oh, and P.S. I really like that "recessed" area of R/C along the boardwalk, in Danillos image they show some tables and plants and stuff. THat could be a really nice "cozy" area to hang out in after visitng the museum or whatever. Could be great urban space.

Justinsane, they tried very hard to bring a hotel into the RC, it was part of the original scheme for it. They met with at least one hotelier. It didn't happen, I'm not sure exactly why. You have to bear in mind that no developer can just decide something and have it happen. It's necessary to find the actual people who are willing to take on the risk to make it happen. If I've learned anything from watching this process it's that things happen when ideas meet capital and experience. There was an idea (to have a boutique hotel in the RC) but no one was willing to front the capital. This whole thing is an uphill battle, and behind the scenes there have been a lot of pushing and pulling. I was surprised that Vetter only announced two confirmed tenants, when I've heard many more names linked to the development that have been flirting with it over the past year. I'm guessing that a lot of people are sitting on the fence. It's a risk, and Vetter can't force people to take it.

The other thing is the boardwalk. It's a destination in its own right, and its success will be determined by how it's used. First, it'll be well utilized for things like Art Street, the Fourth of July, the Tall Ships, etc. but also for smaller events, possibly for the farmers market, maybe a winter holiday market, etc. Second, it will be a place where music and performance can happen. But mostly it will be the kind of place that people just go to to be, perhaps to meet up before biking down the trail, or just hang out on a nice day. Green Bay doesn't really have that kind of urban space, so it may take some time for people to discover how to use it. But, if you go to any urban center, you'll find similar places with people just people watching, playing chess, sitting on benches and making out, or doing nothing at all.

ps. I totally second that greenspace on the rooftop!

Justinsane,

According to the Packer Country Visitors and Convention Bureau, there are good properties in Green Bay that would love to host Packers' opponents. And a little over a year ago it looked like Green Bay would get that business because there were questions raised about the legality of the police escort from Appleton to Green Bay.

However, it just seems as though teams prefer to fly into and stay in Appleton and it might not have much to do with what kinds of hotels we do or do not have. Maybe they feel a little more insulated there. Maybe they are happy about the situation and don't care to make the effort and take the risk to change what has worked for them in the past. Even though most of them still leave Lambeau with a loss.:)

Some Ideas... Barber Shop? pancheros? qdoba? some small gift / cards / confectionary center, in addition to the ones mentioned above, maybe we need another bar?

My understanding is that there could be a wireless/telecommunications store, sub shop, and a dry cleaner/laundrymat. Of course this may change, but that is what the new owners are saying.

My understanding is that there could be a wireless/telecommunications store, sub shop, and a dry cleaner/laundrymat. Of course this may change, but that is what the new owners are saying.

I liked the panchero's idea better >< I'm sure they would do awesome downtown, not only catering to the bar crowd, but the work lunch crowd as well.

On a food note, anyone been to the reopened Stein yet? It was one of my favorite places to eat before it was closed. Food still the same, or even close?

Hi, I'm new to the forum, but not new to Green Bay. I have grown up in Green Bay my whole life. I have tried to be very optimistic about what they are doing to the riverfront. While its nice to see stuff start happening, i cant help but feel as though they are taking the wrong approach. I love the boardwalk idea, but it doesn't really seem as though they are putting enough stuff on that's going to continually attract people. I can picture myself going down there once or twice to check everything out, but there really wont be enough to keep me coming back. As a 21 yr old and part of the future generation of the city, i can only picture this boardwalk being dead in 5 to 10 yrs. I can also say i am disappointed to see that they haven't used this opportunity to build a large upscale hotel along the riverfront. It's a shame that packers opponents still travel from Appleton because green bay doesn't have a hotel to accommodate them.

Welcome to the forum! Concerning the boardwalk, as others have pointed out, the purpose of that space isn't necessarily to bring people downtown in and of itself (though if it's effective it may do that to some degree). What it should do though, and what downtown Green Bay totally lacks right now, is serve as sort of a "collector" of people. Whether people are coming down for a show, dining, or to dock their boat there, the boardwalk gives people a place to sit and be for a little longer, a hub where people can go to see what's going on.

That said, what is important that you highlight is that the boardwalk alone can't make the downtown. Once it is complete, there will still need to be (and I'm confident there will be) efforts to program that space, and to make sure the types of complimentary uses exist downtown that will draw people who may then decide to linger for a bit at the boardwalk. Some of these venues already exist (KI Center, Meyer Theater) and more are coming (Children's Museum).

Regarding the hotel, and aside from where football teams decide to stay, the key to getting high quality hotels is demand. Demand for such a hotel will be created by expansion and booking the KI center, and more importantly, more businesses downtown that need quality space for business travelers. I have really no idea what the hotel market is like in Green Bay, but I'd guess that we'd have to drum up a fair bit of demand before downtown will look attractive to the type of hotelier that you're looking for.

My understanding is that there could be a wireless/telecommunications store, sub shop, and a dry cleaner/laundrymat. Of course this may change, but that is what the new owners are saying.

I liked the panchero's idea better >< I'm sure they would do awesome downtown, not only catering to the bar crowd, but the work lunch crowd as well.

On a food note, anyone been to the reopened Stein yet? It was one of my favorite places to eat before it was closed. Food still the same, or even close?

Hey, anyone who opens a sucessful business downtown is welcome as far as I'm concerned, and it isn't as though we get to pick and choose exactly what we want and where (that pesky free market). But really, how many sub shops does Washington St. need if one were to go in there? That'd put us back to three on the block. Then again, competiton is the hallmark of a free market...

I'm pretty sure The Stein reopened under the same ownership, so I'd guess the quality is the same. Mmmmm... weiner schnitzel...

On a food note, anyone been to the reopened Stein yet? It was one of my favorite places to eat before it was closed. Food still the same, or even close?

Yeah I was at the Stein last month. I guess the son is running the place now. I came on a bad day as it was the 1st day it was reopened and the place was packed and understaffed. A few of the people that have worked there before were running around trying to train people and they were overwhelmed. They have really good food there correct.

Here are a few photos I took yesterday. Does anyone know what they are going to do with the existing footings from the old pranges building? It seems as if they quit the demo and are jut going to build on thop of them.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/DSC_3057.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/DSC_3053.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/DSC_3051.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/DSC_3050.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/DSC_3048.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/DSC_3047.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/DSC_3046.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/DSC_3039.jpg

^^
That last pic is really cool. Also glad to hear the Stein is under the control of the original family. My wife and I really enjoyed that place.

hey, thanks for the pics. i love reading everything you guys post on here but it's had to picture some of the things that are going on without pictures. i'm coming back to the GBC this weekend for a week so it will be fun going downtown to experience all the downtown has accomplished the last 8-10 months

Surveyor-Yeah, good pics, especially that last one.

Say, I was looking over the renders posted last week, and I am really curious what in the world the tall skinny part on top of the RC building will be used for?...Now that there is no new space shown as being built up on top of this existing structure, I can't imagine what this would be used for...Is it for an elevator? Seems too big for that...But too small for much of a room....A loft bedroom with a view? A really big broom closet? Anyone know anything of the interior layout?

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/OddSpaceonRC.jpg

It was said because of the small layout and fire access issues that this will not be used for occupiable space. There was some mention to have emergency equipment for the City/County in there and obviously the lighting (lighthouse) element.

I spoke with someone who was up there, they said that there's a room up there that houses the motor (engine? apparatus) that drives the elevators, and on the very top there's a water tower. He said that it the views were fantastic. Sounds like it'd make a pretty cool living space, if it's feasible.

^^ To recap, yes, it's a water tower. And also Vetter mentioned at RDA that the height of it moves into high-rise territory, and that there isn't enough space to have two points of egress. Not sure I added anything there that GB4Life and Nativist didn't, but that's what I know.

One thing that would be really cool: there used to be a system of lights up there that gave the weather forecast for the following day. Anyone know anything about that?

^^ Just that it used to exist.

One thing that would be really cool: there used to be a system of lights up there that gave the weather forecast for the following day. Anyone know anything about that?

Oh, Man, get that back up there!^^ I've seen building lights like this, there's at least one in downtown Chicago.

As far as another point of egress...Any chance of adding something? Even if it's just a public observation tower or something...make use of it somehow.

Well anyway, thanks for clearing that up. I think Danillo or someone had mentioned the "water tower" before but I guess I didn't know what he was talking about.

On a different topic-
Went to Quincy's restaurant in the bellin building today. It's on the 2nd floor. Very, Verynice place. They really did a nice job on that whole thing. Nothing was half-assed, for once in the downtown! Makes you feel like you're in an actual city, unlike so many other places downtown where you're not sure if you're in a small town or a suburb, if you know what I mean. .. I won't be able to afford to go there often, but it's a special place to take that special someone on a date, maybe before a show at the Meyer or something. Seems like a niche that the downtown really needed. And to do it in such class, excellent. Not to mention, the food and service was spectacular. Sure, it was a few bucks more than another joint, but if you want quality, great atmosphere, it's the place to go. Although it is "upscale" it's possible to go there for lunch and not break the budget, there are some good lower-cost items on the menu. I give it an "A+". Plan to go back with my wife ASAP.

WBAY had a couple stories (http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=7532120) on the new DTGB video, which is now posted on YouTube

That video is an example of something that has bothered me about the overall structure of downtown Green Bay. I'm pretty sure that Jeff Mirkes from Downtown, Inc. had the video done, and if you'll notice, every single shot is on the East side of the river. I think this is an artifact of there being too many downtown organizations. On Broadway and Downtown, Inc. should consolidate themselves. On Broadway served its purpose as an independent organization.

I'm fine with this all being on the east side. OnBroadway could make their own video and do their own promotional items. Each district has different "flavors" even though yes they are all technically "downtown".

I don't know the inner workings of the BIDs but to me I think it's fine to let each one concentrate on the different districts within downtown, rather than trying to take too much of a macro approach...Don't really know what I'm talking about, though....just my uninformed opinion.

Does anyone know if Vicenzi's is open yet? I was riding down Washington St. tonight and although I was slightly under the influence I could have sworn I saw the lights on and people in there. I just dont remember hearing or reading anything about them finally being open.

It is. i got in to the GBC yesterday afternoon and i went out with a couple people downtown lateron in the night after one of the Bud Girls that i know told me that vicenzi's opened that night. i really liked it. i seemed really open which i'm now sure if i like taht as much but it had an atmosphere of some of the more bigger city club feel that i have been in before. i think it should be well. they just opened last ngiht (12/22/07) and it wasn't publicized at all so all things considered i think they had a pretty good showing by the end of the night. i thing i didn't like about it was that i saw the jack-ass John Vanderleast there. other than that it was a pretty nice place. the barstools are the most comfortable barstools this nice of milwaukee

One quick post before da Pack and da Bearsss play.

Did anyone see the nice infill building going up in downtown Wausau? I really like it. To me it fits in very well with the existing historic context but with a contemporary flair. Sure do wish something kinda like this could be built on some of GB's vacant parcels...

http://www.samuelsgroup.net/gallery2/d/427-1/121407+_3_.JPG

Nothing was half-assed, for once in the downtown!

I think this is a bit of an overstatement. I was just in St. Brendan's last night, nothing half-assed about that. The renovation of the Meyer Theater didn't seem like they cut any corners. I think Nicloet Bank took a great deal of pride in their building and did eveything they could to make it nice. When Maloney's built their new building and went as far as to put in an openable roof, I think that was quality. I'm missing some, but there are many examples of people who have done the absolute best they could. Are there some projects that I wish had been done better? Of course, but that's just part of how a city functions in a free market. Let's just now paint everyone with too broad a brush.

On Broadway and Downtown, Inc. should consolidate themselves. On Broadway served its purpose as an independent organization.

I do agree that in theory there would be some merit in consolidating organizations, but it isn't all that easy either. There are significant differences in the funding for each organization, for instance.

I thing i didn't like about it was that i saw the jack-ass John Vanderleast there.

What on earth did John ever do? Has he been the #1, most pro development alderman? No, but he's been pretty solidly in favor of what's going on, while also making sure to hold the line on taxes. Beyond that, in the couple of times I've talked with him, he's been very nice.

To me it fits in very well with the existing historic context but with a contemporary flair.

This does appear to be coming out nicely, and there are some lots here where I'd take this in a second. But where's the contemporary flair? I'm not saying it's a bad looking building at all, but contemporary it is not.

I think this is a bit of an overstatement. I was just in St. Brendan's last night, nothing half-assed about that. The renovation of the Meyer Theater didn't seem like they cut any corners. I think Nicloet Bank took a great deal of pride in their building and did eveything they could to make it nice. When Maloney's built their new building and went as far as to put in an openable roof, I think that was quality. I'm missing some, but there are many examples of people who have done the absolute best they could.

But where's the contemporary flair? I'm not saying it's a bad looking building at all, but contemporary it is not.

You are right -- there are many places in the downtown that were NOT done half-assed.

On the Wausau building--To me it's got a touch of postmodernism--not the crazy outlandish asymmetrical designs you typically think of with postmodern architecture-- but a lot of contemporary architecture is showing a return to historical precedents, allusions to the past. This has that in that there are arches (historical allusion) but they're quite exaggerated in size.. contemporary in a sense. It makes use of both stone and quite a bit of glass to sort of emphasize architecture of both past and future. I think it fits in well with the "new urbanism" movement's design principles. Some people hate this, but sorry I never liked the boxy unornamented 'modern' architecture. I'm glad to see more and more new buildings coming back with a little bit more ornamentation.

Did anyone see this letter to the editor in the PG on Dec 18. And then you wonder why Green Bay will never amount to nothing more than a dot on the map and why companies avoid downtown with people like this.

Fox River real estate should be prized

ALLOUEZ — Thank you to the Green Bay Plan Commission for voting against allowing low-income apartments to be built on the Fox River.

I think offering low-income people a view of the cherished Fox River is an insult to all those who bought expensive condos just down the river. If someone wants to build low-income housing that would be supported in part with my tax dollars, then it should be on less valuable land. The most expensive property in the city is just one-third of a mile north on the river. It seems like an oxymoron to put the words "low income" and "on the Fox River" in the same sentence.

Maybe someone should propose the government offer discounted Packers tickets to low-income people, also. Taxpayers could subsidize those tickets, too.

If people are going to get low-income housing, why not build it over on Eastman and North Webster area. That way, they would be closer to the bus station. Now that makes sense. Tom Delsart is living proof ignorance reigns in this town.

On principle, I am opposed to this project.

Tom Delsart

If I am thinking of the correct Delsart, he is a landlord in the GB area. I went to St. Norbert college and he owns many of the "low income" houses that are rented out to students around that area. I actually rented from him for a summer and wasn't too fond of the relationship. Of course, he has to deal with many unruly college students, but I just wasn't impressed.

I understand where he is coming from, but completely disagree with his stance. I am not saying that the apartments should be rented out for $250/mo., but offering some more affordable housing options will only improve DT in general. Some of the pros to offering the low income housing is that it adds density to a spot that needs it. Increased foot traffic and utilization of the new amenities under construction would likely increase, drawing more people to downtown. Nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd. The negative aspects of this are, like Delsart stated, it may create some uneasy feelings for those that just bought more expensive condos close by. Of course, I'm sure these expensive condos come with much more than the low income ones, but it is hard to argue the point of location. Also, people living in low income housing may have less disposable income to put back into the economy. This means that the local businesses may not see a significant impact directly from these residences.

Just my two cents...

After readings Toms offensive letter over and over again another thought has occurred to me regarding the stupidity of the people who do the planning for Green Bay. Why they built the bus transfer station out by the paper mills instead of having it downtown. But after reading that letter it makes sense, blue collar bus riders are not the kind of people they want downtown.

^^I wouldn't expect you to know this, but everyone is allowed to make a request for a City Action in the City of Green Bay and have it considered. This includes low income projects as stated above. It wasn't the planners that proposed this, but a private company - and yes the rumors were true that it didn't even make it to the Plan Commission because the staff were going to recommend denial of the project for the very reason that the letter has.

So before you blast someone, get your facts correct. Your negativity and unsubstantiated claims astound me.

So GB4life, you feel that this statement is correct and not negative at all "I think offering low-income people a view of the cherished Fox River is an insult to all those who bought expensive condos" or is the the statement you like from the letter, "If people are going to get low-income housing, why not build it over on Eastman and North Webster area."

What? The above statment makes no sense.

What I meant was the comment you made about the stupidity of the planners of Green Bay.

I think the comment made by Mr. Delsart is of his own opinion. The low-income housing was to be for seniors of ages 55+ and they would need to qualify based on income levels to rent there. So for those people who bought expensive condos in the core of downtown because they could afford them, that doesn't seem to be an argument against this. The argument should be based on land use, denisty, and the highest and best use of valuable riverfront property. Not knowing any of the specifics, I couldn't form an opinion.

There is an updated web site for the childrens museum.

http://www.gbchildrensmuseum.org/

The children's museum is going to be a great addition to downtown Green Bay, hopefully others will be able to take advantage of this addition and more business that will attract families, that will be whats bring life back to a depressed area of Green Bay. There is enough adult entertainment down there it's time to refocus on more family oriented business.

^^ I agree 100%. The best downtowns are the ones which focus on bringing the family crowd. When kids come to downtown and enjoy their time there, they will be much more likely to come for various reasons as an adult. The new children's museum in downtown Appleton has really done wonders in diversifying the pedestrian crowd in downtown.

I was in downtown Chicago yesterday in the business area of the loop where there is relatively little retail or family oriented activities, and was pleasantly surprised to see the large number of young families walking around with their kids.

..Remember "Wild Air"? (it was in the former mall...in fact it was the ONLY busy place in the mall before it closed). Well anyway it was one of those places with the big inflatable slides, bouncy rooms, fun stuff for kids. I took my kids there a few times, it was very popular for birthday parties and stuff. Great for both kids and parents -- kids got some exercise and the parents lived a dream which is to put your kids in a rubber room and just let them bounce around and go wild.

Well anyway, I'm wondering why the Wild Air people couldn't find a new location. There is still some other vacant buildings in the downtown that might work for this.

Just another thought for 'family-friendly' stuff downtown.

From wbay.com

By Adam Aaro

After months of demolition, the River Center development is starting to rise out of the old Younkers department store site in downtown Green Bay.

"Now that we see the site being put back together, it's very exciting," Jeff Mirkes of Downtown Green Bay Inc. said.

It's an important step Mirkes and other downtown Green Bay leaders have been waiting anxiously for.

"On this site alone, the River Center could accommodate 120 residential units with more to come after that," Mirkes said.

Right now one of the apartment buildings on the old Younkers site is taking shape. Soon other residential and business developments will follow, and the finished product will be River Center.

Mirkes says adding more residential units downtown will help attract not only more people to downtown but also businesses.

While progress is being made on the apartments, construction on what's being called the focal point of the project -- the children's museum, which will include retail space and restaurants -- is set to begin in the next few months.

"We're excited about a family-oriented destination such as the children's museum," Mirkes said. "It's a facility that could bring 30- to 50,000 people to the downtown, and having a family element to the downtown area is important."

Mirkes says the entire River Center development should be completed by early 2009. The city will begin marketing some of the residential properties this spring.

What I'm hearing is that the boutique hotel idea is being resurrected for the RC... the idea is for it to be a series of suites geared towards longer term business travel, Packers games, etc.

^^ I hope that's true. Something like that is what would really make this project a resounding success. Without it I think it's going to be a major success for downtown anyway, but adding that extra use would be outstanding.

I would assume they would be looking at a hotel user because they understand if they want to keep moving and develop the project, the housing market probably won't be supporting all of the upper floors. Just a hunch. Would rather see people living there, but understand that a hotel would be good as well...

I think Green Bay's biggest hurdle will be downtown residential. Most potential downtown residents would just as soon live in Howard, so they would still drive to work, drive to Cub Foods, drive to Bay Park Square, just like "normal" people do. They probably wouldn't lend as much support to downtown business development as they should. They would just park their cars in the ramp and go to sleep, maybe enjoying a view of the river or the roof of Washington Commons.

The majority of people who have any interest in urban living know enough to realize Green Bay will probably never have the sweeping city views from 40 stories up or get the nod of admiration that a downtown Minneapolis or Milwaukee would get you. It just doesn't have the urban residential benefits that larger cities have by default.

To bring more life and activity to downtown, the focus should be on commerical and entertainment. Commercial keeps people coming during the day, entertainment keeps them coming at night and on the weekends.

Bars, clubs, restaurants, concerts, festivals and museums are a good start, but we also need to begin a regional shift in habits and reputations. Wouldn't it be great if taking your spouse out for dinner downtown meant something special? That won't happen as long as people roll their eyes and say, "If it were really special, you would have taken her to Appleton." Once that downtown reputation is firmly established, the residential component will be easier to fill.

The city should make it as enticing as possible to bring top notch restaurants and clubs downtown. Why build a new, trendy restaurant or club in DePere or Ashwaubenon? Green Bay should never let that happen. It's a waste. Why not help all these struggling buildings by renovating space like the Bellin Building is doing? It would get people talking and word would spread that maybe downtown Green Bay is the place to be.

Business owners would want to be downtown to be a part of the scene that is developing there. That would help fill up all the space in these exciting building projects we can never break ground on. Maybe that would add a floor or two? Maybe it would help get things built at a frantic pace like in Wausau?

Now I am just talking crazy. :nuts:

^^Hey Double, I'll be the first to welcome you to this site! I like having a lot of different 'voices' on here, keeps it lively.

I must say I've often thought about just what a high-rise dweller would look upon in the downtown...you are correct that the roof of places like the mall (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=rdkfsz7nyyq4&style=o&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15772697&encType=1) isn't exactly awe-inspiring enough for people to shell out more than a million $$. However, from what I can tell, the Astor tower is designed such that most of the views will be towards the Bay and River...which could be nice.

I think you are also correct about the other developments which are needed...a potential buyer for a condo isn't in it just for the view; they're also desiring to live in a place where they can quickly and easily walk to many different types of places. I think there is a bit of momentum building now, we're starting to see more and more of the 'smaller' developments and they're starting to add up.

I think that many people (businesses & other) are indeed starting to believe that downtown is once again becoming 'the place to be'. The mall site is still there, sucking away, and we need more new infill in other places too.

Will $4 / gallon + for gas help the downtown as well? I think people are really starting to get tired of driving every where for every little thing. I know I am.

^^ Whoa! When did they add 3D buildings to Green Bay in local.live.com? I wonder; Does Microsoft send a person to each city to create those models, or does a volunteer from each city provide them to Mircosoft?

Thanks for the welcome. I read the whole thread in one shot so I feel like it all took place last week. Unfortunately, it looks like a lot of the items you guys have discussed years ago haven't come to pass yet. Oh well, someday right?

I think just about all cities struggle with these issues, but Green Bay seems just a tad behind. We're all just anxious to see some changes, but it's tough when the changes we want cost tens of millions and take years to develop. Green Bay is the Bonsai tree of Wisconsin cities.

I would assume they would be looking at a hotel user because they understand if they want to keep moving and develop the project, the housing market probably won't be supporting all of the upper floors.

If I'm not mistaken, the hotel would constitute the commercial space above the Children's Museum, along Wash. St. I don't think residential has ever been proposed for that space.

I think Green Bay's biggest hurdle will be downtown residential...

As Puant noted, the key is the river view, which is pretty nice. Take a look are Riverfront Lofts and River Center, and the residential is mostly river-oriented. Though to be honest, I happen to like the city view. The mall is bad, but there are some nice things to see looking east.

I really think the market exists for a fair bit of residential downtown. There's so much uncertainty about selling your own house in this housing market to add the "will this building get built" uncertainty on top of that. Not that Astor Place can't happen, it would just be easier in other times. But, we can't dictate the market condition, so we must do our best to move forward in the climate that exists. Projects do get done.

Wouldn't it be great if taking your spouse out for dinner downtown meant something special? That won't happen as long as people roll their eyes and say, "If it were really special, you would have taken her to Appleton." Once that downtown reputation is firmly established, the residential component will be easier to fill.

The city should make it as enticing as possible to bring top notch restaurants and clubs downtown...

Do people really say that? What's in Appleton that isn't in Green Bay? I've gone to many a very-nice dinner in Green Bay.

To be honest, you've hit on one of my pet-peeves. I have heard people complain about the quality and variety of restaurants downtown, and I really can't figure out what people are expecting or looking for. Just about any food that's available in the area is represented in the three downtown districts, and at pretty good quality. I think dining is one of the strengths of the downtown.

But it would be nice to get a few more good places or especially some clubs. I know there have been a few proposals for blues or jazz clubs, but they have fallen through. The problem is that it isn't like a government can start up the business we want, you need entrepreneurs to do that. And lets face it, some of the things we'd like to have don't have a big enough market or the right type of market to succeed here, and that's why there are none.

I think just about all cities struggle with these issues, but Green Bay seems just a tad behind. We're all just anxious to see some changes, but it's tough when the changes we want cost tens of millions and take years to develop. Green Bay is the Bonsai tree of Wisconsin cities.

The Bonsai tree of Wisconsin... that's awesome. Welcome to the board, and an excellent first couple of posts!

^^ Whoa! When did they add 3D buildings to Green Bay in local.live.com? I wonder; Does Microsoft send a person to each city to create those models, or does a volunteer from each city provide them to Mircosoft?

All I can say is, holy crap.

...Do people really say that? What's in Appleton that isn't in Green Bay? I've gone to many a very-nice dinner in Green Bay.

To be honest, you've hit on one of my pet-peeves. I have heard people complain about the quality and variety of restaurants downtown, and I really can't figure out what people are expecting or looking for. Just about any food that's available in the area is represented in the three downtown districts, and at pretty good quality. I think dining is one of the strengths of the downtown....


Danillo's probably right, if you really analyze it, there is probably about the same number and quality of restaurants and stuff in downtown GB as in Appleton's downtown.

That said, I think the perception that Appleton's downtown is "better" relates to the fact that Appleton's restaurants are all in a better context...the sense of being in a vibrant urban place is much stronger in Appleton. Why? Part of it is that Green Bay's downtown is dissected by the Fox River moreso than Appleton's ...but also it's because Green Bay has too many parking lots and other 'dead' spots inbetween the good stuff...The context, the spaces inbetween, are just as important as the businesses themselves...THis is probably obvious to most of us here, but it seems some others don't get it.

Wouldn't it be great if taking your spouse out for dinner downtown meant something special? That won't happen as long as people roll their eyes and say, "If it were really special, you would have taken her to Appleton."
When I hear anyone say something similar to this comment, they usually are talking about Chili's or Outback or TGI Fridays. Not to generalize, but I have concluded that this is most likely a comment from someone generally younger who also thinks that they prefer to drive from the mall to the above mentioned establishments rather then have to park on a road or a ramp. In fact I have a confirmed example of this from someone who now lives in the Lincoln Park neighborhood and works in the cbd of Chicago. Over the recent holiday, she was back up here and really wanted to go to Los (banditos)((the one on Main)) and not the typical chain. Example being...move away...try something new...


Anyways - Welcome Double

I can see that. Appleton has created a better context for thier ammenities than GB has to this point. When the boardwalk, River Center, and the Cherry ramp retail get done, that will help close that gap. Certainly the Bellin Building has filled a hole from a curbside perspective.

has anyone noticed the size of the new steel on the River Center Apartments?

Either steel was just that cheap back then, or it was grossly oversized in compairison to the steel being erected on top of the old stuff.

Any interest in a GB SSC meet on Friday? I'm thinking 7 or so at Bull and Bear (I've haven't been there yet).

^^Yeah, sure. I can probaby make it by about 8. Should a fun night out with the Pack playing a big game in town the next day and all. :cheers: Heck, even if none of us other SSC'ers show up it should be a good time.

^^ I might be down for a meet.

^^
I would love to get together sometime, but will be out of town this weekend. Maybe some other time.

I'd be down...

^^ Okay then. I'll try to get down to Bull and Bear at 7:30 on Friday evening. I'll be the 6'4" tall guy, probably in some sort of soccer shirt, who looks vaguely like the Simpsonized version of myself I use for my avatar. Hope to see you there!

^^ OK if I come I will be the only guy in the city wearing a Milwaukee Bucks T.

Great, looks like I'll be able to make it earlier than I thought..I'll be there by 7:30. I'm 6'2" and have no idea what I'll be wearing.

^^

Do you look like your Avatar as well?? j/k... enjoy the :cheers:

^^ That's what I was thinking, I'm waiting for the caveman to come in, and if Puant doesn't look like a caveman, I'll be very disappointed! I used to think that Puant looked like Jean Nicolet and liked to walk on beaches and fire guns in the air, so that's possible too!

I'm no longer local otherwise I would join you guys too. Have fun though.

Appleton has always bothered me because it dilutes what little resources the region has. Green Bay should be THE spot north of Milwaukee and Madison.

When I went off to college and met people from around Wisconsin, their view of Green Bay was working class, gang-infested, grimy and rude. Their view of Appleton was white collar, clean, safe, metrosexual and cosmopolitan. Don't ask me where they got those impressions, but apparently people think Green Bay is one tough and dirty place.

Totally off the subject, does anyone know how many meters tall Astor Place was/is planned to be?

I'm no longer local otherwise I would join you guys too. Have fun though.

Appleton has always bothered me because it dilutes what little resources the region has. Green Bay should be THE spot north of Milwaukee and Madison.

When I went off to college and met people from around Wisconsin, their view of Green Bay was working class, gang-infested, grimy and rude. Their view of Appleton was white collar, clean, safe, metrosexual and cosmopolitan. Don't ask me where they got those impressions, but apparently people think Green Bay is one tough and dirty place.

Totally off the subject, does anyone know how many meters tall Astor Place was/is planned to be?

Approx. 185 feet = 56.388 meters

Also, chalk up another victory for Ashwaubenon over Green Bay. Personally I think a downtown location on the proposed Boardwalk would have been much better... (Such as Walnut and Washington or maybe as the boutique hotel in River Center that is rumored)

Ashwaubenon Boardwalk hotel groundbreaking is Thursday

By Jeff Bollier
Gannett Wisconsin Newspapers

ASHWAUBENON -- Ground will be broken Thursday for a new hotel in the Ashwaubenon Boardwalk area, the third hotel to be operated by the Oshkosh-based Supple Restaurant Group.


The 105-room hotel, which will operate under the aloft name, will represent a modern, hip take on hotels. The hotel will be the first aloft hotel to open in Wisconsin and could be only the brand's fifth hotel worldwide, Jay Supple said.

"They really took the boutique style and gave it more of an urban feel," Supple said. "It's hip. It's high-tech."

The aloft, brought to the Green Bay area by the Supple Group and the Starwood Hotel Group, also represents a segment of the Supples' business that continues to grow: hotel development and management.

The Supples are also partners in the Hilton Garden Inn of Oshkosh and are expected to break ground on their second Oshkosh hotel, a Cambria Suites, in the Marion Road Redevelopment Area later this year. Supple also said the company has started to examine developing an aloft hotel and Fratello's restaurant in Madison.

"We've always looked at the hotel side of things," Supple said. "We've always enjoyed our relationship with the Hilton. And with the advanced features the aloft has, it pairs up nicely with the Fratello's we have up there (in Ashwaubenon's Boardwalk redevelopment area)."

Officials from Starwood plan to be on hand for Thursday's ceremony, which seeks to introduce the area to amenities and styles the hotel will offer business travelers, Green Bay Packers fans and tourists alike.

The hotels will offer loft-style rooms with 9-foot ceilings, an oversized walk-in shower, plug and play technology interfaces for everything from cell phones to iPods, flat-panel TVs and lobbies and common areas designed to encourage interaction with other guests.

"Starwood wanted to develop a brand that could go into markets the size of Milwaukee, Madison and Green Bay," Supple said. "They wanted a brand that offered a lot of the amenities brands like (Starwood's) Westin and W hotels offered, but not quite as plush. We just love getting the chance to be associated with them."

Consolidated Construction Co., the Supples' partners in the Cambria Suites project in Oshkosh, also will build the aloft hotel.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080109/GPG03/80109064/1247

Gang infested?? Rude? That's funny to me. I always thought 2 things GB was known for was how safe it is and how friendly the populace is. Every out-of-towner that I've spoken to seems to have similar opinions.

Ugh. I was back home for a week during Christmas and I was so bored that I made the very regrettable decision to see "I Am Legend". :ohno: Yep, it got that ugly. I never thought of throwing together a SSC get together. And the one night I did go out no one wanted to venture out of De Pere. I really pushed for Bull & Bear and Vicenzi's but to no avail. I wish I could join in on Friday. A post on the interior/atmosphere of the place would be appreciated.

One thing that shocked me a bit when I was home was the fact that no one I spoke with had seen the changes that are going on downtown. I mentioned to numerous people that they'd hardly recognize north Washinton Street but nobody had seen it themselves. It just seemed strange to me. GB is a small place. It's not that hard to get downtown. I guess I could understand the argument that there's no reason to go there but I would have assumed that curiosity would at least implore people to drive the 15 minutes to take a look. Maybe 7/4/08 will be the first time people see the progress for themselves.

Well I'm guessing the next 3-4 months will be pretty slow for development news. I'm guessing it'll be April or so when Vetter makes the grand push to get people interested in Astor Place again.

Gang infested?? Rude? That's funny to me. I always thought 2 things GB was known for was how safe it is and how friendly the populace is. Every out-of-towner that I've spoken to seems to have similar opinions.

Granted this is coming from freshmen who are from places like Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, Eau Claire and Whitehall and Rhinelander...

Approx. 185 feet = 56.388 meters

Is that on the short side for a 17 story building? The new First Wausau Tower is 241 ft/73 meters at only 11 stories tall. It would have been nice to squeak some more height out of it. Of course, we won't be squeaking anything until they start digging a hole.

Also, chalk up another victory for Ashwaubenon over Green Bay. Personally I think a downtown location on the proposed Boardwalk would have been much better... (Such as Walnut and Washington or maybe as the boutique hotel in River Center that is rumored)

I crack up sometimes when people wonder why Ashwaubenon has done so well. Beyond the advantage they have due to their location, Ashwaubenon is reaping the rewards of a history of a progressive view towards development and an aggressive use of TIF. They are willing to invest in growth consistently, and developers are welcomed and assisted rather than being scorned because they dare try to turn a profit.

In any case, I really don't think this is Ashwaubenon versus GB in the long term. Successful "urban" developments anywhere in the area raise a tide that lifts all boats.

One thing that shocked me a bit when I was home was the fact that no one I spoke with had seen the changes that are going on downtown.

I think this is very true. It's a problem too because this perpetuates the idea that nothing has happened or is happening downtown, when in fact a lot has and is happening. But, if people aren't coming down, then it's our job to work on making downtown a place more people want to go.

Is that on the short side for a 17 story building? The new First Wausau Tower is 241 ft/73 meters at only 11 stories tall. It would have been nice to squeak some more height out of it. Of course, we won't be squeaking anything until they start digging a hole.

It's about as short as a 17 story building is going to be. A few things to remember when comparing it to Dudley (First Wausau):


Dudley is an office building, Astor Place is residential. Office buildings tend to have greater floor heights (just go look at Nicolet Bank and Riverfront Lofts for a comparison).

The Dudley building is topped by large pyramid, which is topped by a spire, so there's a lot of unoccupied space adding to its height.

The Dudley building was built by a rich man out of, as much as anything, civic pride, and he could build it however he wanted without having to raise money first. Good on Wausau!

I can only speak for my own experience, but for me the Appleton dining scene USED to be more interesting than Green Bay's because they had better ethnic food. Back when Lee's Cantonese was the only Chinese restaurant in GB, we used to go to Dragon's Gate in Appleton. And then there was Sai Ram, Koreana, Taste of Thai, Karas' (sp?) Greek, etc. Green Bay is catching up, but Taste of Thai still kicks Nukao's ass, in my opinion. And I would love for Koreana to open up a branch in Green Bay downtown. For finer dining I think we have the advantage. Hinterland is probably the best restaurant in Northeastern Wisconsin.

What we'll never have is a College Avenue, but that's a mistake that we can't unmake. What we can do is make sure that the T. Wall and other proposals for the mall site are well thought out and provide for an urban experience. I'm crossing my fingers for something on the scale of the Bayfield Mall area (is it Bayfield?) along i-43, North of Milwaukee.

For friday night at the bull and bear (if i am invited) i will be the short guy (5'8") wearing jeans and a casual button down shirt.

Nativist- The mall just north of Milwaukee is Bayshore. I have a question for you though. What is to say that we will never have an area like College Ave. in Green Bay? If the mall site is well developed with storefronts lining the entire street (and not broken up with parking lots like most of downtown is right now) I think that will be right on pace with College Ave. We will have the few taller buildings just like Appleton plus we will have the boardwalk and river, which I think will make our downtown eventually better than there's.

Also as far as restaurants go. If you want a national chain restaurant go to Appleton, but for a great meal with great atmosphere go to one of the downtown restaurants (Quincy's, St. Brendan's, Angelina's, Hinterland - four of the better restaurants I've been at in Wisconsin)

^^ That's what I was thinking, I'm waiting for the caveman to come in, and if Puant doesn't look like a caveman, I'll be very disappointed! I used to think that Puant looked like Jean Nicolet and liked to walk on beaches and fire guns in the air, so that's possible too!

Well, I do have a lot of cave-man attributes...slack jaw, dragging knuckles, general cretinism....but I'm not as good looking as the guy in my avatar, unfortunately...

hckystr42--and anyone else is definitely invited! At last, we meet....
And you are right, the mall site, if redeveloped properly and with adjacent properties, could definitely compete with the likes of College Ave and be the true 'urban' exciting place we desire. I wouldn't care if the buildings are no taller than 4 - 7 stories. We don't need no stinkin skyscraper city to be cool.

So anyway I am a little bit bummed about that hotel going to Ashwaubenon..they make it sound kinda cool.....could be a good fit downtown.

^^ And it won't take long to catch up to downtown Appleton now that downtown develpement here has pretty much stalled with nothing even on the horizon.

but I'm not as good looking as the guy in my avatar, unfortunately...
Hahahahaha. Nice.

Although I won't be there, I'm hoping one of my favorite posters, GBMPhillips, makes an appearance. Not sure why but every time you post, GBM, I envision Wilford Brimley.

Speaking of Mr. Brimley (sorry, this is waaaay off topic), he's the focus of one of my favorite Onion headlines:

Shotgun Blast To Abdomen Just Pisses Wilford Brimley Off More
http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/onion_imagearticle2396.jpg

What do you say, GBM, am I close? Alrightie, back to work.

Hckystry42, I'm optimistic about the mall site too. What I meant was that we would never have a College Avenue, ie: an intact historic, main street, with a stores on both sides, parking behind, and a liberal arts college at one end. We did far more damage to our downtown than Appleton did. At the time, we were the forward thinking, ambitious downtown, but it ended up being a model for the future that didn't work very well. Appleton is now reaping the rewards of its lack of ambition in the 1960s and 1970s. That being the case, they've had a bit of an advantage when it comes to redeveloping small scale urbanism. We're in a position of having to literally start over from scratch, at least on the East side. I also think that our downtown will kick Appleton's ass in a few years; especially if we seize the advantages of starting over from scratch.

Haven't posted lately, but do watch the comments as I think they are useful and insightful. May I attend your gathering at the Bull and Bear? If you want, I'd love to show you some plans for the penthouse and take you up on the roof also. However, I'd be late as I'm in Omaha and flying in tomorrow night and my flight doesn't get in until 8:00 p.m.

Thanks,

Steve at the Bellin Building

^^Let me be the first to say, Steve I would love to meet you, see the plans, and whatever else you have time for!! I'm sure I speak for all of us when we say this would be excellent! I've been in your coffee shop a few times, ate at the restaurant on the 2nd floor (what a cool place that is!)...And by the way, I've been spreading the word. Something interesting--the feedback I get when I talk to people about downtown is, they're getting interested in the downtown again, not so much because of the new stuff, but rather because of places like the Bellin BUilding and everything happening inside. The renovations seem to be as, if not more exciting to many people. Especially Quincy's and the Bull and Bear. I went to Quincy's with a rather large group of people--some were skeptical of the whole thing at first but afterwards everyone to a tee had nothing but great things to say about it...how they planned to go back with their spouses, etc. It didn't disappoint. And I cant wait to try out the BUll and Bear pub tomorrow night, it'd be a double treat if you could join us.

Thanks Steve, you just made the fact that I won't be there about 100x more painful. Hopefully someone stays just this side of getting sauced so they can remember and repeat on this message board all of the good inside info that gets tossed around.

steve...what were you doing in Omaha? i live and work in omaha. i moved to lincoln in 2003 for school and moved to omaha in 2005. if here is anything you need me to check or give you an up date on, let me know

Awesome Steve!

Thanks Steve, you just made the fact that I won't be there about 100x more painful. Hopefully someone stays just this side of getting sauced so they can remember and repeat on this message board all of the good inside info that gets tossed around.

And we want to see pictures!

I guess ShopKo sees that people are moving back downtown!

Shopko Express coming to former Larsen Co. property
Press-Gazette

Shopko Express will be the ground-floor tenant of a three-story building planned for the corner of Broadway and Dousman Street on the site of the former Larsen Co.

Smet Construction Co. of Howard is the developer. The property is owned by On Broadway Inc.

Shopko Express is a stand-alone pharmacy. The store will be an anchor of the redevelopment of the 22-acre Larsen Co. site.

The $4.5 million building will have two other tenants.

A news conference is scheduled for 2 p.m. today at the Larsen Co. site.

Hey,
Great to see a bunch of you at Bull & Bear pub. Couldn't talk much (band, while good, was loud!). Plus I got there late. But in time for the tour--- The tour to the upper levels & roof of the building was great...Thanks again Steve! Maybe someone who took pic will post them.
Downtown is comin' around!

More on Shopko Express coming to Broadway:

Plans for new Shopko Express 'big statement' for Broadway district

By Richard Ryman
rryman@greenbaypressgazette.com

Shopko’s decision to open a Shopko Express pharmacy at Broadway and Dousman Street was hailed today as an important step for downtown development.

The Green Bay Area Chamber of Commerce also will move into the new building.

“We have a number of (development) things in the red zone on the east side and the west side,” said Mayor Jim Schmitt. “This could help push them across the goal line.”

Smet Construction Co. of Howard will build a three-story, 39,000-square-foot building on the northeast corner of Dousman Street and Broadway. Shopko Express, a full-service pharmacy, will occupy the ground floor and the Green Bay Area Chamber of Commerce the third floor of the $4.5 million building. There is room for a third tenant.

The building is scheduled for completion by early fall. It is part of the 22-acre Larsen Co. project being developed by On Broadway Inc. Plans call for a mixture of work, living and public spaces on the site of the former vegetable-processing plant.

“This is a big statement from a business development standpoint,” said Naletta Burr, On Broadway director.

Michael MacDonald, chairman and chief executive officer of Ashwaubenon-based Shopko, said they want to be a catalyst for further development in the area, they saw an opportunity to serve an underserved area and they think the store will be profitable.

“If one and two are successful, we believe we will be financially successful,” he said.

Broadway district residents have been saying for years that they would like more such services downtown.

“This neighborhood was in need of this,” Schmitt said. “They have two great tenan[I]ts so far. It doesn’t get any better.”

A Save-A-Lot grocery store is one block west on Dousman Street. Burr said that was another factor in Shopko’s decision.

“One of the things Shopko is attracted to is the proximity of services already in the area,” she said.

Paul Jadin, Green Bay Area Chamber of Commerce president, said the chamber also wants to be a catalyst for development in the area.

“It’s a statement that Broadway and Dousman is downtown. It’s also a statement that Broadway has made so much improvement, it’s ready for these kinds of things,” he said.

Smet Construction said it will buy the chamber’s current office at 400 S. Washington St.

Burr said the Larsen Co. site is one of the few in the downtown area large enough to accommodate national tenants, such as Shopko.

To assist the project, the city and the Redevelopment Authority will loan Smet $3 million at 5.5 percent interest to be repaid over 20 years. They also will loan the developers $850,00 for development costs to be paid back through tax incremental financing and a no-interest loan of $725,000 to be repaid in a lump sum at the end of a year. The RDA also will lease parking space to the development for $1 a year for 20 years.

Paul Belschner of Smet Construction said a ground-breaking ceremony will be scheduled soon.

^^I like that Shopko is locating downtown, I just can't wait to see the design.. What immediately comes to mind when I think of a Shopko building is a lot of cinderblock with few window openings, big parking lots around..the downtown DePere Shopko isn't exactly beautiful. And to "complement" the Save-a-Lot store..that kind of scared me... That said, if it's a 3 story building with the Chamber of Commerce within, well, it could be different, hopefully it's nice. I mentioned my concerns to Jeff M. the other night, he made me feel better about it.

Prestige Tower website
I'm not sure when this was updated, but this is the first I've looked at the Prestige condo web site in a while. Check it out (http://www.prestigeparktowers.com/). Anyone know how sales are going?

Bellin Tour-
Anyone who had a camera Friday night, it would be great if you posted the pics here.

The report from WFRV (see here (http://www.wfrv.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoid=32403@wfrv.dayport.com&navCatId=5)) has a rendering of the ShopKo building. Not too bad, it will improve that corner well.

I have one thing to say: GO PACKERS!!!! :drunk:

In the WFRV clip, they mentioned that work is already underway on City Deck and Astor Place. The video shows the framework of a building going up near the Astor site, but that isn't the start of the 17 story building is it? I didn't think they were going to start that until next summer at the earliest.

Oh yeah... Go Pack Go!

I heard each home playoff game pump 4 million into the local economy, that can't hurt. Too bad we don't have that skyline quite ready for the night time money shots yet.

The video shows the framework of a building going up near the Astor site, but that isn't the start of the 17 story building is it? I didn't think they were going to start that until next summer at the earliest.

The framework is the rental portion of River Center. Much of that steel is the structure of the northern portion of Prange's, where the Terrace Room Used to be. They've added two floors to it, and two bays out towards the river.

Here's a few photos I took on the Bellin Building Tour that Steve gave us. Good Times!

I thought I had taken more photos, but I guess not, and I shook the camera pretty badly on many of them, as you'll see.

The view south:
http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/bellin/photo1.jpg

On the roof:
http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/bellin/photo2.jpg

Close-up of courthouse and Cathedral:
http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/bellin/photo3.jpg

Pretty shaky, but the removal of the mall overpass and the opening of the sightline down Washington St. has really transformed the downtown, I think:
http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/bellin/photo4.jpg

Motor for one of the elevators. I think Steve said it was installed in the 30's with a lifetime warranty from Otis:
http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/bellin/photo5.jpg

Steve mentioned he'd pull out some plans for the penthouse. Any details on what that's to be or what it'll look like?

I think the new building on Broadway/Dousman will fit in pretty well. Does anyone have a clue as to what will happen with the old Chamber of Commerce building? It's in a pretty prime location on Washington.

Smet is taking over the old Chamber of Commerce building for its offices... pretty brilliant move, I think.

The CHamber building is awesome, I was just inside of it recently and the inside is cool too. Excellent Flemish Renaissance Revival style of architecture, if you're into that sort of thing. I hope Smet keeps it's original character whatever they do to it. DOesn't Smet do mostly surburban-style, chain-store stuff? They did the BayLake renovation downtown, didn't they? OK maybe that's not fair, they were working with a tough building there. They should have just 'accidentally' imploded it or soemthing. "Sorry, Baylake, I guess we'll have to start over on this, oops!"

I have a question for you guys...you're all of the "urban" persuasion, you know the site (http://maps.live.com/?v=2&sp=Point.rdk49p7nywpw_S%26S%20Studio%20building___&encType=1)....So, let's just say someone came along and bought the Schauer & Schumacher studio building (http://picasaweb.google.com/gBayPacker/SchauerSchumacherBuilding) and turned it into some sweet urban loft-style apartments or condos. How tough to you think it would be to sell/rent these units, given the location, the building, the lack of parking, etc? A big risk? Do you think something like this would work in Green Bay, or does isn't the downtown ready for this? Would you invest your own money in something like this, or is it a certain failure? Sometimes I get so excited about stuff that I lose sight of what really would work and what wouldn't.

first...i don;t believe smet is going to be using the old chamber of commerce for their offices. they only purchased the building to make the sale in their building on broadway and dousman. i sure that was a player in the move..."we can't commit to your new building unless we can sell the one we have." so i'm sure smet just bought it to move things alone more rapidly.
second...smet did not do the general construction for the baylake buildings. it was bayland construction that did that. your are correct though...i do believe that smet is more into urban and chain retail construction more than anything else but they do dabble in what is called design/build which is what is going on at dousman and broadway. they are designing it and i'm sure even helping out on the engineering of it and are doing it mostly themselves with just the assistance of a A/E firm.it looks like a winner and congradulations to them for anchoring two big tenants for the area. more can only follow

Still can't see those live.com maps... I'm sorry to bring this up again, but is there anyone using a mac who can see these? If so, what browser/os are you using? Here's my answer though: I don't think the Schauer and Schumacher building is best used as condos. It was built as a retail showcase, and I think that's probably the best use for the space. I think that the people who would buy high-end condos will want dedicated parking spots, at least around here. In New York City, it's common to have multi-million dollar apartments/condos without parking areas, but attitudes about cars there are very different. Here in Green Bay, I recently spoke with a man who said that he would like to downsize from his 5000 sq. foot house to a 2000 sq. foot house, but can't find one that also has a six car garage.

Even when it comes to retail, people still expect each individual area to have its own parking. I think eventually, however, people will get used to the idea of parking centrally downtown and then going about their business.

Anyone notice last night watching the game that when the showed 'downtown' Green Bay, they showed the intersection of Walnut and Broadway focusing on the Burger Company, 56, and to a lesser extant on the shops on Broadway just North of Walnut?While, I am a fan of Broadway, it seemed like they were choosing to portray Green Bay as an even smaller city than it is.

Anyone notice last night watching the game that when the showed 'downtown' Green Bay, they showed the intersection of Walnut and Broadway focusing on the Burger Company, 56, and to a lesser extant on the shops on Broadway just North of Walnut?While, I am a fan of Broadway, it seemed like they were choosing to portray Green Bay as an even smaller city than it is.

I got that impression as well. Trust me, next season they will show downtown in a better light. I am in talks with ESPN and NBC right now. Fox hasn't been too friendly, of course their coverage along with their announcers sucks. It would be nice if people in our city govt would talk to these networks as well. I mean what do people think of GB...only the Packers. Maybe if they would show the downtown riverfront people would have a better impression of Green Bay and see that there is more to this city.

I have only seen Green Bay on the way to Packers games, which has not allowed me to see much of the actual city. Is there a skyline there or anything?

I got that impression as well. Trust me, next season they will show downtown in a better light. I am in talks with ESPN and NBC right now. Fox hasn't been too friendly, of course their coverage along with their announcers sucks. It would be nice if people in our city govt would talk to these networks as well. I mean what do people think of GB...only the Packers. Maybe if they would show the downtown riverfront people would have a better impression of Green Bay and see that there is more to this city.

That shot of Broadway really made the crowd at Titletown erupt in cheers:cheers: like hey that is just down the road from here. Truthfully though, most people in Green Bay probably were watching the game and my opinion is that they (FOX) were just pointing it out to everyone. Besides what shot of the area would be more impressive? an Applebee's? Stadium View? the unlit Riverfront Lofts? I find it humorous that people here even care what FOX does.

The uniqueness of a pro franchise in a metro this small is so amazing... I think.

^^No question GB is by far the smallest city with a pro franchise. But I agree, the networks do tend to play this up and portray it as even smaller than it really is....Which is fine, they have plenty of downtown shots to prove their points I guess. Did anyone catch the USA Today article and what they said about the downtown? Check it out with the link below.

GREEN BAY, Wis. — Proudly placed near the top of an airplane storage facility beside Green Bay's relatively tiny Austin Straubel Airport are the capital letters TITLETOWN, USA.

This of course is a relative generalization as well because they didn't even mention that it is an international airport...:lol:

I just came across this PG article from a while back that recaps what Danillo reported from RDA back on Dec. 11...


Green Bay riverfront work gets extension

Developer given until June 1 to begin construction on Astor Place project

By Richard Ryman
rryman@greenbaypressgazette.com

Riverfront development received a vote of confidence Tuesday from Green Bay's Redevelopment Authority, which expressed no alarm that projects were moving more slowly than scheduled.

The authority extended its agreement with Milwaukee developer John Vetter, now requiring construction on the Astor Place project to begin by June 1. The previous agreement expired Nov. 1.

"We are so close to getting there, we want to extend the dates," said City Attorney Allison Swanson.

Vetter's projects include the completed River Loft condominiums, the under-construction River Center development and the planned 17-story Astor Place. All are on the east bank of the Fox River between East Walnut and Main streets.

All told, the projects encompass 240 new residential units, 42,000 square feet of new retail space and up to 225 new jobs.

Demolition of existing buildings on the River Center site took seven months instead of a planned four, and market forces and development issues slowed work on the Astor Place project, Vetter said.

They've reached 70 percent of the sales goal for Astor Place, Vetter said. Sales total $12 million, and Vetter hopes for a March groundbreaking.

"I talk to friends who are developers, and they say it's dead out there. We have an anomaly here," Vetter said of his hope to secure adequate sales and financing by February. "Once we hit financing, we are in the ground."

Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt also recommended extension of the development agreement, saying it is worth waiting to have the necessary elements in place.

"We didn't want to do a phony groundbreaking just to get a couple of aldermen who don't support anything off our backs," Schmitt said.

Alderman Guy Zima, who has been an opponent of the riverfront projects, attended the meeting Tuesday but did not speak.

Astor Place will include 17,000 square feet of retail space and 95 condominium units. Vetter said he is working with a San Diego company that plans to put an organic grocery store, organic cafe and fitness center and juice bar in the building.

The company increased its space requirement from 5,000 to 9,000 square feet, he said.

Vetter said the majority of condominium buyers are empty nesters. Younger buyers who want to live in an urban environment are also signing up.

Astor Place construction will take 18 months. Vetter said an early 2009 completion is possible.

The timeline for the River Center project calls for a ceremonial groundbreaking on Jan. 31, 2008, turning over of the Children's Museum of Green Bay space for build-out on Aug. 15, 2008, completion of River Center residential areas on March 1, 2009, and River Center retail space openings in spring 2009.

Construction already is under way on River Center, which includes two buildings. One will include the museum, condominiums and retail spaces.

The other, between the first building and the Astor Place site to the north, will include first-floor retail spaces and 64 rental units being developed by Stone House Development of Madison. The apartments, supported by Wisconsin Housing and Economic Development Authority tax credits, will set aside units for people with low to moderate incomes.

River Center businesses

Developer John Vetter said Tuesday that Kavarna Vegetarian Coffeehouse will relocate to the Fox River side of the River Center development in spring 2009. The move will double the space available to Kavarna in its current building at 112 S. Broadway.

In addition, Vetter said Jess Miller and John Cohen, owners of The Bar establishments in Green Bay and Appleton, will open a family-oriented, sports-themed restaurant on the first floor of River Center, with frontage on both the North Washington Street and Fox River sides of the building.

Vetter said he is working with a local restaurateur to open a "very upscale" restaurant in River Center, as well.

The River Center building will include the restaurants, the Children's Museum of Green Bay, raw loft condominiums and apartments.

It is scheduled for completion in early 2009.

I got that impression as well. Trust me, next season they will show downtown in a better light. I am in talks with ESPN and NBC right now. Fox hasn't been too friendly, of course their coverage along with their announcers sucks. It would be nice if people in our city govt would talk to these networks as well. I mean what do people think of GB...only the Packers. Maybe if they would show the downtown riverfront people would have a better impression of Green Bay and see that there is more to this city.
You can't make a mountain out of a molehill and you can't make a small town into a big city. Green Bay is what it is a small town. It has a downtown that is 12 blocks by 12 blocks big give or taker a coal pile or two, it's potential of ever becoming a "big" city is nill to none. If not for the Packers no one would care about this town nor probably ever heard about it. Instead of worrying how the networks portray us, why not just keep focusing on trying to bring life back to downtown, I mean lets be real it's never going to be like a downtown Milwaukee, Chicago or even Madison, but hey maybe some day there will actually be traffic downtown on a Sunday afternoon again.

You can't make a mountain out of a molehill and you can't make a small town into a big city. Green Bay is what it is a small town. It has a downtown that is 12 blocks by 12 blocks big give or taker a coal pile or two, it's potential of ever becoming a "big" city is nill to none. If not for the Packers no one would care about this town nor probably ever heard about it. Instead of worrying how the networks portray us, why not just keep focusing on trying to bring life back to downtown, I mean lets be real it's never going to be like a downtown Milwaukee, Chicago or even Madison, but hey maybe some day there will actually be traffic downtown on a Sunday afternoon again.


Very well said, I agree 100%

Well, I for one am NOT looking to make GB a "big city". I just want a vibrant downtown. By all accounts and pictures, Green Bay HAD a super downtown 70 years ago when the population was much smaller. And I can name you about 20 different much smaller towns around Wisconsin that have vastly better downtowns than Green Bay. Sheboygan Falls. Plymouth. Portage. LaCrosse. Wausau. Port Washington. Appleton. West Bend. Janesville. The list goes on.

Bigger isn't better, but we sure need something better. This downtown has too many dumpy areas thanks to the tearing down of so many of the buildings to insert parking lots, and moreover the general pessimism about the whole area has prevented so much from being redeveloped.

GBM, I agree. I really don't give a rip about what pictures they show during NFL games. Of the list of reasons why redeveloping the downtown is important, the "they only show cows on TV" factor is near last for me. I really couldn't care less. As you and Puant say, making the downtown a lively place for those who live and do business here is what's it's about, and the networks are going to portray whatever they're going to portray regardless.

I agree that downtown needs to be useful for the people who actually live there, first and foremost.

From the national media's perspective, Green Bay has a good story and a fun angle to play off of. Every NFL city is basically the same... mid to large size population, halfway decent skyline, but really indistinguishable to the general public. Why would they want to come here on game night and do the same generic skyline shots they do in every city? Finally! Someplace that is a little different! Let's show some examples of what makes it different!

If we added 300,000 people and a few 30 or 40 story buildings, they still wouldn't treat us like Kansas City, Cleveland or Pittsburgh... there are already plenty of those cities filling the ranks. The fact that the networks dramatize how small we are is is good, it's not as much of a stretch as trying to dramatize how big and sexy we are. Who in the national audience would really believe that anyway?

Green Bay has its own niche and we fill it well.

I like your attitudes. No need to get an inferiority complex over this, because we do have a lot more going for us than a skyline or the Packers. I do have to kind of chuckle, though, when the TV networks try to portray this city as even smaller than it really is.....That doesn't bother me, but what DOES bother me is when they portray the city as being ONLY about the Packers. Sure, the Pack is fun for a few months out of the year, but as you all know, there is MUCH more to this community besides the Pack.

^^ Yeah, there is a lot more to us than the Packers, but in fairness to the national media, the Packers are why they're here, what makes Green Bay unique on the national stage, and our chamber of commerce website is titletown.org, and our tourism board is Packer Country...

So sure, I'd like people to know there's more here than cold, cheese, the Packers, and fat people, but that's the story and they're sticking to it.

Took another ride through Downtown last night to check on the progress of the different projects. The Stone House part of River Center is coming along Very nicely! They have most or all of the big steel up, and are really working on framing out the skin of the building with the metal studs. It's coming along very well, and it's great to see all that progress being made. We also drove past the Bellin Building, a very impressive look at night, very urban sleek and sexy. I love the new decals on the windows announcing the Historic Bellin Building. Feels like a place plucked right out of Chicago now. Way to go Steve! :okay:

Just wanted to say a quick "HI!". Found this site about a month or two ago and have been following along. I also read the entire thread along with the link to the past thread. You all have some great ideas and interesting perspectives. I enjoy following downtown projects and seeing them progress. But it's so painfully slow to watch all these projects get drawn up and then disappear. Or like the Astor Place project, reading past articles suggest we should be having a grand opening any day now.
Green Bay needs to find some large local company that's willing to drop a large building downtown & fill it up. Yes, it's a pipe dream, but with enough incentives, it seems like we should be able to get a ...Humana, Shopko, Schneider, etc. to add to the skyline.

Welcome Night Rider.

You would think the local companies would have a little civic pride, wouldn't you? I think during the downfall of downtown, companies wouldn't even consider making such a radical move (I'm thinking AMS?). I hope companies will see that downtown is beginning to be the ideal place to locate HQs in the Green Bay area.

^^ Actually, one of the legendary stories about downtown Green Bay that has sort of been beat to death is that AMS, evidently, wanted to build downtown but the city leadership at the time did not want them.

^^Hey, Night Rider, great to have you on board. The more perspectives, the more interesting this forum can be.

As far as an HQ...All I can seem to hope for is some local company to grow exponentially and then build to serve their needs. Kind of like Nicolet Bank did....When were they organized, like in about 2000? And by 2004 they were already putting up a pretty nice new big building downtown. I doubt they'll need more space soon, but there could be another business kinda like that...

Who could be next local company to follow that kind of growth? I dunno, let me throw one out there...how about Al's Hamburger? Maybe they start opening up chains all over the world and put McDonald's out of business, then build a giant HQ in Green Bay's downtown. They could just build about 50 stories up in the little footprint their shop occupies right now. Just imagine an Al's every block in every major city in the world...when you travel, you'd never be far away from some good ol' Green Bay cuisine!!

Organic market and café agrees to Astor Place lease

Groundbreaking for project set for March

Press-Gazette

Health & Wellness Market & Café has agreed to a 10-year lease at Astor Place, a project planned along Main Street on the Fox River in Green Bay.

Groundbreaking for the 17-story condominium and mixed-retail building is planned for March. Vetter Denk Architects of Milwaukee is the developer.

Astor Place will include 17,000 square feet of retail space and 95 condominium units. John Vetter of Vetter Denk said in December he was working with San Diego-based Webster & Associates to put the organic grocery store, organic cafe and fitness center and juice bar in the building.

The Organic Grocery Market will offer produce, vitamins, herbs, organic health and beauty skin-care products, a service deli, an organic salad bar, and a juice bar serving organic wine, espresso and fresh juices.

The Market Café will serve such dishes as omelets, wild Alaskan red salmon sandwiches, veggie chili, raspberry-chipotle pork chops and specialty desserts.

The Health Lounge, located on the second floor adjacent to the Astor Place fitness center, will serve specialty beverages and all-natural fresh fruit smoothies, protein and soy shakes and ephedra-free sports drinks.

Massage therapy, group exercise and yoga programs will be offered in the fitness center, and name-brand fitness apparel will be for sale.

Astor Place is one of three projects Vetter Denk has along the east bank of the Fox River between East Walnut and Main streets. The others are the completed River Lofts condominiums and the River Center project, which is under construction in partnership with Stone House Development of Madison.

All told, the projects encompass 240 new residential units, 42,000 square feet of new retail space and up to 225 new jobs.

Insurance company gives boost to downtown Green Bay

Vincent Urban buys parcel of land in Larsen Co. project

By Richard Ryman
rryman@greenbaypressgazette.com

The partners in Vincent Urban Walker & Associates never questioned the need to remain in downtown Green Bay when they decided to buy their own building.

"I travel a lot. I've seen too many downtowns that decayed to the point you can't bring them back," said David Anderson, who owns Vincent Urban with Cindy Hamlin and Marc Perna. "There is an incredibly strong value to having a strong core downtown. Green Bay has an important center: downtown and the Broadway community."

Vincent Urban was the first business to buy a parcel of land in the Larsen Co. redevelopment project on Broadway, acquiring a former railroad and vegetable processing company office at 300 Dousman St.

"This is the first owner-occupied building, which is something we like to see," said Rob Strong, city planning director and a member of the Larsen Co. redevelopment project board.

The full-service insurance agency, which has 18 staff members, held an open house on Thursday.

"We bought the Larsen site for exactly this reason, so that individual developers and small businesses could get a chance to develop spaces like this for themselves," said Greg Larsen, president of On Broadway Inc.

Remodeling of the building began Aug. 15, and Vincent Urban began doing business there on Dec. 3. The agency moved from 139 S. Washington St.

Remodeling was done by Phil Berdel of The Remodel Shop.

The building has a number of historic preservation touches. An original set of window and door trim was found, which was the base design for all trim work in the building. Paint colors reflect those commonly used at the turn of the century.

A decision was made during construction to leave the second-floor east walls exposed.

There was a fire in the building during its use as a railroad office, and the underlying brick was covered with fire residue, but still in good shape.

"The brick was charcoal black. We had it pressure washed and it worked," Berdel said.

Workers also were able to preserve some of the original wainscoting on the first floor.

Cabinets, library shelves and woodwork were custom made, and windows were added throughout.

Anderson said if additional space is needed, they can add a third floor.

Work yet to be completed includes creating a green patio and green space between the building and the street.

"We don't have enough green space downtown," Anderson said.

Anderson said he's pleased the Green Bay Area Chamber of Commerce committed to moving into a planned building immediately west of his office.

Smet Construction plans to build a three-story office building on the corner of Broadway and Dousman Street.

Tenants will include the chamber and a Shopko Express pharmacy.

That building is scheduled for completion in early fall.

Cool pic of Astor Place

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q28/westwinder/APGB.jpg

Hey, the printed version of the Press-Gazette made me feel pretty good about downtown today.

The best render YET of Astor Place, in context, was printed. Wish I could find it online...... Looked pretty nice...^^Wait, there it is!! THanks Bay to Bay...!..Part of it has a large green roof..cool.
My only criticism was that the wall along Main St was a bit too blank, almost no windows. I realize part of this is along the bridge section, but there's also a sidewalk there..I guess being such a visible corner (Main and Washington) I would like to see a bit more articulation, you know? Otherwise, though, it all looked pretty sweet, including the R/C units already going up next door.

Yeah I love that rendering! The building isn't flashy, but just fits.

Finally some good news. Now, when they say groundbreaking is scheduled for March, do you think that means they will have a meeting in February and announce that they are close to meeting their sales goals and will start construction as soon as pigs fly out of their butts? Or do you think will they actually start building this? Having a tenant sign a 10 year lease must be a sign that this is going to finally be a reality.

Because of my job, I'm forced to go into the old Hotel Northland, AKA Port Plaza Towers, every once in a while. After I leave, I feel like I need to shower in some kind of acid wash. On the bright side, looking around inside of the building, you can see what kind of place it was & still could be. Is there any scuttle about possible re-developing that building? There seems to be a lot of potential there.

Nice looking building. :okay: Green Bay seems to be doing really well right now.

Nice building! BTW, does anyone know how many of the Packers live in GB during the off season?

As I look at the render above, my eye wanders to the back side (the former mall) and I can't help but think about what a GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY it will be for the downtown to have that sprawling nightmare razed, to put the streets back through, and develop some really cool urban buildings there. How fast can we go from crap to kick ass downtown? I dont' know, but these developments will make some great headway if they can ever get off the ground. but I still worry a bit about one single developer taking on that entire mall site. I still wish it would be razed by the city and then parceled off in smaller chunks... But, we'll see what happens I guess.

As for the start date in March---Yeah, I thought the same thing, will March just come and go without anything happening? I think the developer is running out of time.....The new retail leases will certainly help, but I can't imagine many more residential condos were sold. Maybe this nice new render will help sell a couple more...

As far as Packers living there...I don't know about Astor, but luxurious urban lofts are a rare commodity in Green Bay, and that the adjacent Riverfront Loft condos are occupied by at least a couple of Packer players & coaches. Since players are often here for such a short time, it's possible someone else might buy and own them and then lease the units out to the players for however long or short period of time they are here. I think a couple of former players got into that business...Nate Wayne, the linebacker, comes to mind, as that sort of entrepeneur.

As far as the Hotel Northland,....I've never been above the 1st floor so I don't know what it's like up there....I just blogged about this place on the link below...that's about all I know....Anyway, as far as redeveloping it into something else, a year or so ago we had a little discussion about that on this forum....the thought of finding a newer, better location for the residential tenants and moving them out of the Hotel, then renovating the old building was mentioned. Of course, these were all just crazy speculative things, and nobody seems willing to toss out the "G-word" (gentrification). I'm not even sure it's the right thing to do, even though I'd love to see this building renovated.

One last comment.....
I am NOT one who wants to see downtown turn into expensive, exclusive 'yuppieville' or whatever. Sure, I think there is room for the rich folks, but I am also glad to see other developments for the blue collar people--people who are the lifeblood of the community. I know GBMphillips has pondered how to attract the blue-collar types to the downtown, and as I read the stories of the posh places like Astor going in, I think that's great--- but I also don't want to see the blue-collar, down-home types turned away...Downtown needs to be a place for people from all walks of life.

Does anyone know when T-Wall is finally going to be presenting there plans for the mall site?

Does anyone know when T-Wall is finally going to be presenting there plans for the mall site?Well actually I am not even sure that they are going to come up with plans for the site. They have a planning option to explore the market. If the market looks favorable they have the option to present plans. I think I am with Puant an this one. That site is very large. I dont see one developer coming in and making enough $ to fill the whole site. I think in the end, TIF will be used to raze the mall and put the grid back (as much as feasable). That will be the very best option. I am not sure what else will really work. I would prefer business/commercial vs low density res. but I think there is a place for that however I think it is more suited for South Adams. But these are only my opinions and I hope something works out sooner rater then later.

I believe T Wall will be presenting a plan. From what I've heard, it will be a three part plan, as in, the space will be built up in three phases assuming there remains demand. I too worry about how this will turn out, but those that I've talked to about it seem pretty happy with what they are seeing, and seem to have a pretty high degree of confidence in T Wall.

Hope this is not a off topic from the normal chat here, but one of the blogs I always enjoy reading is PACKERLAND ANNALS. Its two most recent post got me think about historic Green Bay and about one of the forgotten historical sites. At the corner of N Chestnut and Kellogg St sits a little stone monument that has seem to be all but forgotten. I was just wondering if anyone knows the history behind it and why it was left behind when the moved the buildings that were there to Heritage Hill and who may be responsible for it.

http://newffl.net/gifs/forgotten.jpg

Does anyone know if the Bellin Building's 2 restaurants are online with menus, prices, etc.? Was going to check out the Bear and Bull? this weekend and wanted to find out a little more info. before we went (types of food, prices, hours, etc.) Thanks!

Sooo, aahhh, what's up?

Emerald--How did you end up spending your time in GB?
GBM-Thanks for the 'props' on the blog. Sorry, though..I don't know much about what you posted. ANything on the monument like some writing or something?

Downtown YMCA
Something else I'm working on for the blog--maybe you can help...
Do any of you go to the downtown YMCA? Ever been there? WHat's your "take" on it? Do you wish they'd tear it down and build new & modern? Do you mind that the place doesn't have the open layout like the new Y's out in the suburban areas? Anyone know what the upper floor(s) are used for nowadays? What kinds of comments do you hear from others about it? Do most people think it's a dump, or do they like the 'character' of it? thx.

http://www.greenbayymca.org/resources/dtymcaweb.jpg

By far my favorite building in Green Bay. I feel the same about the old YMCA building as you do about the S&S building. I think if T. Wall does a nice job on the old mall site and the downtown area becomes a cool destination, someday the upper levels of the Y building could be the coolest address in Green Bay (funny to say considering what one normally thinks of when someone says they live at the YMCA). I'd love to be able to point up to one of the upper floors of that building and say I live there. It seems like such a waste that the top 3 or 4 floors of that building are empty. Years ago when I was still in grade school my friends and I would sneak around in that place and at least once we were able to get up to the upper floors of the building. Unfortunately we were only able to roam up the stairway--the doors that lead to the hallways were padlocked. Even just roaming in the stairways it was obvious the place was neglected and filthy. I'm pretty sure no one has lived in there for many years. But if someone was willing to put in the effort to gut the place and turn it in to condos, I think it'd be a hit.

As for the Y itself, I haven't been in there in years but I a much bigger fan of the smaller room layout of that place versus the one gigantic room layout of most modern gyms. The building definitely has some character inside and out. As a side note, one day when I was in high school I went to the Y after school and as I walked onto the basketball court I saw Bell Biv Devoe and their bodyguards playing some ball. It was a pretty cool moment for a douche-nozzle high school kid to stumble onto.

I read in an interview once that whenever BBD is in Green Bay, they always hit the downtown GB Y. :lol:

I think that building is great, it creates one of the more canyon-esque streets downtown with 2 relatively tall buildings across from each other. The style is very unique, I could definitely see upscale condos or rental property up there. They just don't build things like that anymore.

It reminds me of this building in St. Paul, the Blair Arcade.

http://www.stpaulrealestateblog.com/photos/condo_directory/p1010599mf.jpg

It was a huge Victorian hotel that fell into disrepair. Now it has been restored to its original elegance. Apartments on the top floors with a coffee shop, restaurant, salon and a congresswoman's office on the street level.

While downtown today I took a few photographs of the Vetter construction project. For those that can't get downtown that often here you go. My first time posting pictures. I hope they turn out. Thanks to Puant en la Baye for assisting.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh103/masagb/02050810.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh103/masagb/0205087.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh103/masagb/020508.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh103/masagb/0205081.jpg

Nice work Night Rider... glad to see you out and shooting.

I think the old YMCA building is fasinating. I think it could stand to see some upgrades, but a new, large cavernous building would just not be the same without like 5 acres or so of parking... hmmm

I really would love to know if all of the upper floors really are just sitting empty. If so they (whoever the owners are) need to condo that badboy and sell off some units, I would be the first person to buy one (if the price was right).

Anyone remember back to the days of Port Plaza mall? remember the Zamias proposal that was floating around? I recall seeing a render (about where Boston Store was) that had a new YMCA adjoing the new IMAX. I still wonder if those plans would have come to fruition if they would have demo'd the old building...It would seem GB like.

So it has been a while with no news, what ever happen with the JC Penny announcement? or when is Twalls option up? Grand Union News?

Any new speculation? We need something...

Too bad the economy is dragging us down :ohno:

Proposed building in I-43 Business Park. Hey, not a big deal that it is 3 stories, but for Green Bay it is. Anything that goes multi-story out away from the core is a big deal in creating the sense of density and highest and best use for properties in Green Bay...

http://www.loopnet.com/Attachments/3/9/B/xy_39BC2484-17BA-46EE-9763-F3B783A08BC5__.jpg

Primary Type: Office
Office Building
Total Space Available: 25,000 SF
Building Size: 30,000 SF

Property Description:
Upscale office space ideally located in Green Bay's I43 Business Park which employs nearly 5000 employees. This brand new building will offer an eye catching facade to impress your clients. Easy to find with convenient access to I43, Hwy 29 and Hwy 54/57.

http://www.loopnet.com/xNet/Mainsite/Listing/Profile/Profile.aspx?LID=15536628&Branding=LoopNet&SourceCode=1lir2t003&Linkcode=17830&

These (http://www.madison.com/tct/business/271580) are the sort of ideas/proposals I wish were being discussed for this area on the southern end of downtown GB (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=44.510353~-88.016549&style=h&lvl=18&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15772895&encType=1). I think it will happen someday.

I have a feeling UWGB will beat #10 Butler tomorrow night at the Resch Center...Anyone wanna bet?

Puant- I wont take that bet because my money is already on the Phoenix to pull the upset.

With regards to that development you wish to see at the south end of downtown I agree with you that something would be better than the empty oasis of parking lots that it is now. I especially like in that picture on the link you have that you cannot see a single parking lot and in between the buildings were they don't touch they have grass courtyards and other asthetically pleasing things.

Maybe someday 10+ years from now when there is once again a thriving downtown in Green Bay and gas by that time hits $10 a gallon people will once again want to be centrally located and then there will be a demand for developing that area. In the mean time as much as I would like to see that part of downtown improved I'm just hoping that the projects they already have proposed actually make it through to fruition and pave the way for something like you want to see in the future.

I think those buildings would be kind of hostile to the pedestrian. How about something more like this (http://www.flickr.com/photos/trentstrohm/184692421/), the amphitheater in downtown Lucca, Italy.

^^The old 'town square' might seem like an antiquated thing, but I think it's still an essential element of a great urban center.

Green Bay's downtown sorely lacks this type of space. What sucks is, GB had a really special civic center at one time....You know the city block across Walnut Street from the Courthouse? It was wholly or at least partially a city square, as shown on the John Nolen plan from 1921 below.

It might not seem like much today, but try to imagine how the courthouse would have looked as you gazed from the green square. Then think about how the former city hall (another really cool building) flanked this square on the east side..That ugly box city hall wasn't built yet, I think they should have kept the old city hall and just expanded it to make more the needed, only continuing the architecturally-significance instead of the ugly building.

Then imagine the Central Library would have been built on the north side of the square (where the Associated Bank parking lot is now). If the library were a really cool, architectually-significant building too, that we'd be starting to really develop a truly special civic center. I imagine hanging out on the Library's large sunny staircase (maybe next to some gargoyles..or maybe not) overlooking a view of this civic center square and towards the courthouse (http://picasaweb.google.com/gBayPacker/BrownCountyCourthouse) as a terminating vista. The western edge of this civic square (buildings on Adams which today contain the Heel, Angelina's) are interesting enough to make that side special, for the most part, and provide that 'sense of enclosure' to make for an "outdoor room" feel, along with the nice old city hall on the east side...

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/Downtown.jpg
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/CityHall-Oldone-Large.jpg

Can you visualize it? Maybe not as special as the town square in Italy as posted above, but special nonetheless, surrounded by some of our community institutions. This is "placemaking 101".

Well anyway, I can easily visualize a special space here, where public gatherings, things like Art Street, protests, rallies, etc could have been held...I think there was a war memorial of some sort here at one time too...

But then for some reason, despite Nolen's city plan, they started putting buildings up on this block..Sure, a few of them like the Northern Building & Frankenthal Buildings turned out nice, but these could have been built elsewhere. I think the war memorial stuck around until the 1950's but then they tore that down too and put in a post office..., so then they built the Sophie Beaumont building (NOT a very nice building) which didn't even last very long as a post office...So first they half-assed the civic center, then they assed the whole thing all together. No wonder the downtown struggles. An opportunity missed.

Now, we had a chance just recently to build a new civic center..the parking lot in front of BayLake just a block away would be almost suitable (though, not flanked as nicely by cool terminating vistas like the courthouse..). Still, take away the mall building that Baylake is in now and the parking lot and that block would have easily worked for most of the activities mentioned above...Even Danillo's plan for this space would go a long ways in trying to add this essential downtown ingredient. Now we're banking on the boardwalk to fulfill this. I think the boardwalk will be good, but I sure do wish we had that "civic center" that John Nolen plan showed...

Long, kind of off-topic post..sorry..As I began to write this, I was going to polish these thoughts up, wordsmith this and put on my blog instead..Maybe I still will, perhaps I'll try some more 3D style renders of what this could have looked like.. I did write an article about John Nolen's plan (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2007/10/john-nolens-1921-plan-for-green-bay.html) a while back. I think what would be cool is to do some 3D renders of what this civic Center might have looked like..but, it's probably a waste of time as it's all just 'coulda, woulda shoulda'.

First off, if I had seen this a couple days earlier, I'd have LOVED to take your guys' money for UWGB vs Butler. It was a good game, but when you watch each team's offense work, the contrast is amazing. Butler mover people and moves the ball so well, and the result is shooters getting the ball with space and with their feet set. UWGB rarely gets an uncontested shot, and relys much more on individual play making. Good effort by the Phoenix, but Butler was just too much. The most amazing thing about Butler is how they have to go into everyone else's gym, when for the other team it's the biggest home game of the year, and match that intensity game after game. The degree of difficulty in doing that is really high. Very impressive.

Seeing the old city hall makes me want to cry...

I think the Baylake parking lot town square idea is not dead. The right things would need to happen with the mall site, but I think the idea is well received and could become a very nice space. Something to work towards.

As for the south portion of downtown, I'd love to see the N/S streets in the area be rowhouses, with retail space on the E/W streets. I think rowhouses could go over very well, provide a real critical mass of people, allow for housing where people could still have a basement and garage, and it would be, I think, the right scale for that part of town.

UWGB had every opportunity to win the game against Butler, but they made too many mistakes. The officiating didn't help; I had to keep quiet about it because my two young impressionable kids were sitting next to me. And I totally agree with Danillo that the Phoenix don't run good offense. It is based on individual playmaking. Dump the ball in to the post and take a quick contested shot, with few opportunities for offensive rebounds when everyone else is standing around watching the isolated player shoot. It's almost like watching an NBA offense (yuck). This is why I'm not sold on Coach Kowalczyk: he can recruit and the program is winning more than it did with Heideman, but can he coach offense?

As for the south portion of downtown, I'd love to see the N/S streets in the area be rowhouses, with retail space on the E/W streets. I think rowhouses could go over very well, provide a real critical mass of people, allow for housing where people could still have a basement and garage, and it would be, I think, the right scale for that part of town.

Anyway, Danillo, what was your thinking in suggesting residential on the N/S streets south of downtown and retail on the E/W streets? Traffic is heavier on the N/S streets in that area (e.g., Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe); how about putting the retail on the busier streets for visibility? Residential on the E/W streets would be safer and more livable.

When I have a chance, I'll try to draw something up to explain my thoughts. It'll make more sense that way.

Sooo, aahhh, what's up?


Downtown YMCA
Anyone know what the upper floor(s) are used for nowadays?



Bringing up a topic that is a little old. I checked with my co-worker who does a lot of work with the Y. He said the 3rd floor of the downtown Y has some break out rooms for meetings and admin offices. The 4rth and 5th floor are just old rooms that years ago were rented for $10.00 a day. He described them as all vacant and run down. The attic area is just storage. Years ago kids would break into the area and they caused some damage. There are some old non-useable bathrooms, storage areas and it's all blighted to the sight. He summed it up saying it was "SPOOKY".

First off, if I had seen this a couple days earlier, I'd have LOVED to take your guys' money for UWGB vs Butler.


I need to stop drinking before posting....Yet, GB kept it close, at least...GB's talent is getting better, but they need to make fewer mistakes...I'd give Coach K a copule more years or so.

I think the Baylake parking lot town square idea is not dead.. I'm crossing my fingers!

As for the south portion of downtown, I'd love to see the N/S streets in the area be rowhouses, with retail space on the E/W streets. I think rowhouses could go over very well, provide a real critical mass of people, allow for housing where people could still have a basement and garage, and it would be, I think, the right scale for that part of town. ...


...When I have a chance, I'll try to draw something up to explain my thoughts. It'll make more sense that way....

I'd like to see your drawing. Would you work around the existing institutions like St. Johns, Captain's Walk, the Police Dept, etc?

Well I'm curious whether residentail in this area is even feasible, even in the wildest armchair planner dreams. The City's Downtown Design Plan does not peg this area as residential, but rather shows mostly auto-oriented Commercial/Institutional development (http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/geninfo/planning_development/planning/dt_plan_map.html) here.

Night Rider--Thanks for the info on the "Y".

I'd give Coach K a copule more years or so.


6 years not long enough? I'm not getting season tickets until coach is gone.

Not to get too far off track, but with the shopko groundbreaking Thursday and the planning commission approving the larsen site redevelopment plan, hopefully that site comes along swiftly and properly.
A quote I found interesting in the PG article on the Shopko groundbreaking, was the fact that other drug stores inquired about downtown after Shopko was confirmed.

Congrats to Appleton today for getting the skyscraper city top banner pic. Has Green Bay ever gotten one?

^^ Nope. This is the second time for Appleton. If you take a look at the Appleton thread, you'll see that Dai Tengu is from Appleton, and today is his birthday. So good on Appleton!

Hey Danillo,

I can't wait to see those sketches about development on the southern DT blocks. I think I understand what you're leading into with your thoughts about the East/West and North/South streets. Placing residential on the N/S streets gives more room to rowhouses and the E/W streets provide enough space for the small live/work "boutique" and neighborhood retail establishments. The E/W streets are wide enough that angle parking could be put in place and provide enough space for the couple of businesses that would be located there. Smaller retail stores usually have only a handful of customers in them at any one time so there should be enough parking.

I'm wondering about the rowhouses and population density though. What are your thoughts on the number of floors and units per footprint. For example, looking at one from the street, typically you see a single-family with basement and two above ground floors. Is it plausible to have the same situation with two additional floors for a second unit up top? My thoughts are that this would increase the pop. density, which I assume is the reason for residential to start with. Is anything like that this being done elsewhere?

Have a good weekend everybody! Daytona 500!

Danillo-

In case I wasnt the only one who didnt completely understand what you meant by row houses, is the link below kind of what you meant?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ronsaari.com/stockImages/philadelphia/clintonStreetRowhouses.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ronsaari.com/stockImages/philadelphia/clintonStreetRowhouses.php&h=600&w=758&sz=124&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=UOgG63ymdkBd5M:&tbnh=112&tbnw=142&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drowhouses%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DG

^^ Essentially, yes. Though styles can vary. Probably somewhere between that and this: http://www.mkedcd.org/projects/blb/blbdevlist.html Scroll down to Park Terrace.

Navarino, you are basically right on as to what I'm thinking. Though to be honest, the population density of 2 or 3 story row houses is reasonably high, certainly for Green Bay, and I think one of the big attractions would be having a single-family house, but still in a dense, urban setting. Another reason to put the housing on the N/S streets is that the mid-block alleys run N/S, and because the backs of the houses need to face the alley, the row houses would have to be oriented that way. I'll try to flesh this out some over the weekend.

i read this on the Redevelopment minutes tonight. this sounds somewhat promising:

7. Director’s Report.



R. Strong provided the following informational items:



· There might be a need for a special meeting over the next month to consider providing redevelopment bonds to the Meyer Theatre and for T. Wall to present their concept for the mall redevelopment. They have two major tenants they are working closely with.

Riverfront project gets federal grant Press-Gazette

Green Bay and the state Department of Natural Resources have received $764,790 in federal money for waterfront development, Mayor Jim Schmitt and Gov. Jim Doyle announced Thursday.


The money will help with construction of the in-water portion of the City Deck project and will increase public access for boaters and pedestrians to the Fox River, Schmitt said.


In its entirety, the Fox Riverfront project will cost an estimated $4 million and will feature an urban boardwalk along the river's edge with boat landings, docks, fishing piers, overlooks and a connection to the Fox River Trail.


In the coming weeks, the DNR will work with the city of Green Bay to complete the award process.

I am pretty excited about Downtown Green Bay in 2008. If our national economy wasn't so stagnant I'd be even more bullish, but hopefully Green Bay can weather the downturn reasonably well as it has done in the past. People always need toilet paper, insurance, and Brett Favre!

Green Bay Roots-

Would the bonds for the Meyer Theatre be so they would be able to construct the Grand Union?

The bonds are a financial requirement for construction. basically it is insurance for the owner that if something happens during construction that the building will still be built with funds from the bonding company. there are actually two different types of bonds that i know of; a bid bond which all that does is tell the owner that if the contractor is lowest and then just before the job starts they find a problem in the estimate and it's so large they want to back out of the contract then they are obligated to pay the difference to the next lowest bidder so that the owner isn't out anything. the next is a performance bond and that says, if a company goes bankrupt, that the bonding agency will find a contractor to finish the job without extra cost for the owner.

i don't know what type of bond the city will need to get. i thought the meyer was privately owned. but if the city does own the property then they will want to take out a bond on the land itself incase something is found unexpectly.

My wife and I made night of it downtown. We first stopped at Quincy's in the Bellin Building for dinner, then walked next door to the Meyer Theatre for a Frank's show. Quincy's was great, my wife commented how fun it was to have a city type view while eating. I can only imagine how the view & activity down there might improve if "The Grand Union" becomes a reality. Beside the great meal, Frank did another great job with the show. Great night out without a stop in Ashwaubenon... ;)

^^Not to get greedy, but the Grand Union + "Site 4 (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=rdk6297nys5h&style=o&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15772785&encType=1)" developments would really be sweet! If just a few of the proposals can get off the ground, they would go a long way in increasing the overall urbanity of downtown GB. Other places are way more cool than Ashwaubenon too, in my opinion. Like Fox Harbor Pub

Not much going on, although there is supposed to be.

Just reading the RDA Minutes from 12/11/2007 and looking at the calander wondering if any proposed timeline will ever become a reality.

Astor Place:

"They are hoping for a March groundbreaking ceremony to start the project."

Doesn't look good on that one... Maybe March of 2009?

River Center:

"J. Vetter reviewed the project schedule indicating a groundbreaking ceremony at the end of January, construction of the foundation in early February as well as a loft warehouse condo sales event. The Children’s Museum anticipates a fall grand opening. The balance of River Center would be completed early spring with a grand opening in spring of 2009."

Did I miss this??? Seriously, unless they plan on putting up a tent and calling it a day, I think this is pretty unrealistic.

I know the market sucks right now, but why is Green Bay still so behind the curve. I was thinking even more so that the mall really did have a much more negative effect on downtown than I previously thought. There has been much discussion about the number of surface parking lots downtown and that there has to be a better and higher use. When all of the urbaness was demolished to make way for the mall, that was a huge catalyst for allowing these surface lots. People are so brainwashed into thinking that you need parking right out front the door for something to be successful. Hopefully the projects listed above and the T-Wall proposal or Grand Union will help eliminate some of those perceptions, but I think the southern edge of downtown will remain mostly parking lots for the forseeable future. I'm just worried that if Astor doesn't go, that the lot will become a parking lot for people using the City Deck because who walks farther than a city block to use something now-a-days. Except if you go to Bay Park or Wal-Mart or live in a more urban community.

On another note, looking through some of the other minutes I noticed something...

Minutes from the 2/25/08 Plan Commission Meeting:

R. Strong informed the Plan Commission that A. Vissers has accepted a position with the Village of Bellevue and this is his last meeting.

The Commission thanked A. Vissers for his service.

What the heck? :ohno:

http://www.loopnet.com/Attachments/F/C/5/xy_FC55F7C2-3ED0-4045-A712-E15B78C90270__.jpg

Property Description:
The building is being constructed to meet rigid environmental standards. The design features exceptional energy-saving technology. This property is also for lease at $12.50 per Sq. Ft., NNN.

Location Description:
This two-story, Class A mixed use building will be located at the SW Corner of Webster Avenue and Walnut Street.

This is currently a gravel parking lot. I guess better than nothing. At least it will be mixed-use and LEED Certified. That is if it even gets built... Although the design is pretty horrible looking in my opinion. Something a little more eclectic at this corner taking into account the older character of the neighborhood would be much better. Plus the rest of the lot would be parking with little to no landscaping. Not very green is it...

http://www.loopnet.com/Attachments/4/E/F/4EFAD0B5-D611-4764-8B41-B485808F7E70.pdf

Oh, and we are getting a Chili's...

Chili's coming to Green Bay's west side

By Richard Ryman

Chili’s Grill & Bar will open a restaurant on West Mason Street in Green Bay later this year.

The restaurant will be at 2363 W. Mason St., where a Hansen’s Dairy & Deli store now stands.

Richard DuBois of Penny Jar LLC, which owns the property, said construction is anticipated to begin in April. The project will include a standalone building for the Chili’s restaurant and a 15,000-square-foot mixed-use strip shopping center. The project is valued at $5.5 million.

The restaurant will face West Mason Street with the strip mall behind it.

Larry Verheyden, vice president of Bay Lakes Food Group, which owns five Hansen’s stores in the Green Bay metro area, said the store will be closed, perhaps reopening later in another west-side location. He said a closing date has not been determined.

Verheyden said his company rejected an offer to move the Hansen’s to the strip mall.

“We will try to find something over there,” he said.

Other investors in Penny Jar are Jonathan Lukes, Steve Bomber, Jim Weibrecht, John Michaud and Tom Marth. DuBois also is president of Jo To Go America, a specialty coffee shop business headquartered in Green Bay.

The restaurant will be owned by ERJ Dining LLC of Louisville, Ky., a large Chili’s franchisee.

Chili’s Grill & Bar, which opened its first establishment in 1975, is a casual restaurant with a Southwestern flair. It has more than 1,400 restaurants in 25 countries. Its menu includes hamburgers, ribs, chicken, fajitas, quesadillas, pasta and more.

There are 12 Chili’s restaurants in Wisconsin, according to the company’s Web site. The closest one to Green Bay is in Grand Chute, just west of the Fox River Mall.

Chili’s is the flagship brand of Brinker International, which is traded on the New York Stock Exchange under the EAT symbol. Other Brinker brands include Romano’s Macaroni Grill, Maggiano’s Little Italy and On The Border Mexican Grill & Cantina.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080226/GPG03/80226174/1247&GID=jSTnkpEb1+U5cCyTcgO+THja43LmcGfRm8zfKtjNpXw%3D

Maybe we'll get an On the Border or the Macaroni Grill. Now that would add some spice to the restaurant choices. Again, I must say - why is the east side of Green Bay so neglected?

It also looks like MLG is marketing a significant retail development on the far east side across from the proposed Wal-Mart. Looks pretty nice in terms of landscaping and what not. Would love to see that happen as it is over where I live and there is nothing on the east side in terms of everyday convienience...

http://www.mlgcommercial.com/images/properties/19604_06%20NEC%20Mason%20and%20Huron%20St_Green%20Bay_BJV1.pdf

http://www.mlgcommercial.com/images/properties/19604.jpg

Maybe we'll get an On the Border or the Macaroni Grill. Now that would add some spice to the restaurant choices. Again, I must say - why is the east side of Green Bay so neglected?

I really do agree that the east side is sorely lacking. I think it the same reason that Ashwaubenon has and continues to prosper- USH 41.

What I dont understand is why displace Hanson's? I am sure the $ was right but IMO that site sucks. If I was selecting the site I would have bought the Circuit City building, much better visibility, with slightly better access.

"J. Vetter reviewed the project schedule indicating a groundbreaking ceremony at the end of January, construction of the foundation in early February as well as a loft warehouse condo sales event. The Children’s Museum anticipates a fall grand opening. The balance of River Center would be completed early spring with a grand opening in spring of 2009."

Did I miss this??? Seriously, unless they plan on putting up a tent and calling it a day, I think this is pretty unrealistic.

Well at least there is one project going on...
How long do you think that they can leave the plywood on the Mall portion of Washington Steet?

On another note, looking through some of the other minutes I noticed something...

Minutes from the 2/25/08 Plan Commission Meeting:

R. Strong informed the Plan Commission that A. Vissers has accepted a position with the Village of Bellevue and this is his last meeting.

The Commission thanked A. Vissers for his service.

What the heck?

Well maybe A.Vissers will be in a better position to comment more here???? If I had to speculate, it seem like an easy decision to make.

1). My impression of dealing with the city isn't that great, working there might not be that great.
2).The only growth that seems to be happening is greenfield, Bellevue is positioned really well for the next decade in that field.
3). Opportunity- Does Bellevue have a planning department?
4). If it was my decision and it was Bellevue WA, It would have been a no brainer....

On an additional side note I found a few intersting sites...
http://www.ca-city.com - they have generated some pretty cool plans

and

http://www.siouxfalls.org/ - proof that you can webcast the commitee meetings

Well maybe A.Vissers will be in a better position to comment more here???? If I had to speculate, it seem like an easy decision to make.

1). My impression of dealing with the city isn't that great, working there might not be that great.
2).The only growth that seems to be happening is greenfield, Bellevue is positioned really well for the next decade in that field.
3). Opportunity- Does Bellevue have a planning department?
4). If it was my decision and it was Bellevue WA, It would have been a no brainer....


I'm just saying reading back through the early stages of the thread, avissers seemed like one of the biggest proponents of downtown and the city itself. Just wondering out loud that was all. Interesting points though. Never had to deal with the city myself...

What I dont understand is why displace Hanson's? I am sure the $ was right but IMO that site sucks. If I was selecting the site I would have bought the Circuit City building, much better visibility, with slightly better access.

I agree about the Circuit City site being better located; the demolition would probably be more difficult and expensive? The price tag on the property itself is probably pretty high because of its location.

Anyone remember Captain's Steak Joynt at that location? :)

The Hanson's site has geographic inertia going for it. Los Banditos is always busy and I could see myself trying to get a table there more often if I knew that I could go right over to Chili's if Los has a long wait (and vice versa).

I'd love to see a Maggiano's here... if we had to wait twenty years for a Chili's I can only imagine how long we'll have to wait for that.

Anyone remember Captain's Steak Joynt at that location? :)



It's funny you mention Captains. I was just thinking of that place a few days ago. As a child, we would take the big trip from our home up "Nort" to go to Captains. It was a big deal & fun meal when your a kid.

I heard that Toy's R Us is moving to Ashwaubenon. It wasn't from any inside source, just someone who lives/works in Ashwaubenon. It should be considered a rumor at this point. Have any of you heard anything about this?

Toys R Us would make sense to move into the fray of the retail district. I always thought it kind of odd that it's now hanging as a weak bridge between the Wal-mart conglomerate and the Sears mall area on West Mason. Though it is nice to have it in a less congested area. Unfortunately, that does not bode well for business. I guess as far as Ashwaubenon, it might build where the old car dealer was on Holmgren down from the new Dicks/Best Buy? They are clearing that whole site it seems. Too bad they just remodeled the whole store a few years back if they are to move.

It bums me out that as soon as Green Bay gets some potential action, the market went to hell. It's like hanging out with a sexy lady at a bar all night and, just before close, finding out she is a man.

I heard that Toy's R Us is moving to Ashwaubenon. It wasn't from any inside source, just someone who lives/works in Ashwaubenon. It should be considered a rumor at this point. Have any of you heard anything about this?

Yeah I heard that they will either go in next to Dick's or over near JC Penney's. That was last summer I heard that. I work in Ashwaubenon and always hear rumors ahead of the media. Also, the mall is trying to buy the land next to Shopko so that the downramp off of 172 can go straight past Shopko HQ and into the current lights near the cinema. I don't understand why Walmart has not built near the I-43 business park yet. I live near Baird Creek and I can see area getting more developed. As everyone knows Bellevue and Ledgeview are the hot spots on the Eastside of the river for retail developments.

So Guy Zima was re-elected yet again not too long a go....Green Bay will never change:bash:

So Guy Zima was re-elected yet again not too long a go....Green Bay will never change:bash:

No he wasn't elected yet. He was just one of the two individuals to advance from the primary election. Voting for Council will be in April.

Maybe we'll get an On the Border or the Macaroni Grill. Now that would add some spice to the restaurant choices. Again, I must say - why is the east side of Green Bay so neglected?

There are many good restaurants in Green Bay that people won't step foot in because they aren't on Oneida St that it makes me sick.

Go get a sandwich at Coaches Corner or Fajitas at Gippers or Salmon at Highland Howies or Sun Dried Tomato Basil Pasta with shrimp at the 101 club or forget the food and drink Dos Equis while you munch on chips and salsa at the east side Los Banditos or ... well hopefully you get my point.

Not having a billion chain restaurants on the east side is a blessing and not a problem. Now if one of those chain restaurants decided to build downtown instead of off the beltline somewhere, then it's good news.

It bums me out that as soon as Green Bay gets some potential action, the market went to hell. It's like hanging out with a sexy lady at a bar all night and, just before close, finding out she is a man.

That is probabally the funniest shit I have heard in a long time...

If you go to the WFRV website http://www.wfrv.com/default.aspx, on the far right of their site they have some video links to their news stories. Today they have three stories on housing. Housing part one talks about city vs. country life. The video may be around for today.

There are many good restaurants in Green Bay that people won't step foot in because they aren't on Oneida St that it makes me sick.

Go get a sandwich at Coaches Corner or Fajitas at Gippers or Salmon at Highland Howies or Sun Dried Tomato Basil Pasta with shrimp at the 101 club or forget the food and drink Dos Equis while you munch on chips and salsa at the east side Los Banditos or ... well hopefully you get my point.

Not having a billion chain restaurants on the east side is a blessing and not a problem. Now if one of those chain restaurants decided to build downtown instead of off the beltline somewhere, then it's good news.

I'm not sure I agree. There are those, who holy cow, prefer chains over the other more local establishments. That is the day and age we live in. I admit from time to time, I like to frequent a TGI Friday's or the like to grab a bite. Not that I am saying I prefer them, but they sometimes hit the spot. But why do I as many on the far east side have to drive to the west side or Ashwaubenon to grab a bite to eat at one of these places? If they are going to exist, and yes they will exist sometime on the east side, why not now when there is such a large segment of popultion that is so underserved when it comes to places such as these. If gas hits $4 a gallon this spring, the drive of a couple of miles will change my mind. Maybe that will force them to come on over.

I heard that Toy's R Us is moving to Ashwaubenon. It wasn't from any inside source, just someone who lives/works in Ashwaubenon. It should be considered a rumor at this point. Have any of you heard anything about this?My son works there and was told the are not renewing the lease at the current store and will be out in the spring of 09.

More Bad news.....From GB Press Gazette:

Lou's Bootery, longtime downtown Green Bay fixture, to close doors
New shoe retailer in Valley could have contributed to closing

By Richard Ryman
rryman@greenbaypressgazette.com

Lou's Bootery, the longtime children's specialty shoes and Stride Rite retailer in downtown Green Bay, is closing.
Owner Tom Weinstein said the store will remain open through Easter, but he hopes to close it by the end of April.
Weinstein said January and February are traditionally slow months, and this year more so.

"I don't think it's been the economy so much as outlet stores," Weinstein said of a long-term decrease in business that prompted the closing. "And another Stride Rite store opened in the Valley. We had a huge Appleton clientele." He said the store has always been a destination retailer, with 70 percent of his customers coming from outside of the Green Bay area. Weinstein understands the vacuum the store's closing will cause for his customers, but mostly he feels relief that the decision has been made. He and his wife, Patricia, have been working other jobs and taking no pay from the store to keep it open and pay two part-time employees. "So many of the families that have been such good customers have been pretty much begging me to keep the store open," he said.

Weinstein's two part-time employees are ready to move on as well. One is graduating from college this spring and the other will be leaving for college soon. "It's hard to find a trustworthy employee who gets it," he said. Weinstein said the store would have been closed last fall, but his father, Louis Weinstein, who founded the business in 1948, was in failing health and Tom attended to his bedside until Louis died at 86 years old in early November.

The business has been at numerous downtown Green Bay locations in its nearly 60 years, but 222 N. Adams St. has been its home for the past 15 years. Lou's Bootery opened in a tiny one-story building in the 200 block of East Walnut Street. Louis Weinstein said in a Green Bay Press-Gazette interview that the location "was so small you've gotta tell people or they won't believe it. It was 18 by 25 feet, storeroom and all. We shared a washroom with Pat Collins of the Camera Corner." The store soon moved to the 200 block of Pine Street, where it stayed until Port Plaza Mall was built in the 1970s, then briefly to the 100 block of North Washington Street, then 220 N. Adams St., in 1980, before moving to 222 N. Adams St. Tom Weinstein took over management of the store in 1982, though he's been working in the store for about 40 years.

Weinstein said he'll sell everything — fixtures and all. Shoes will be sold at 20 percent to 50 percent discount and clothes at 25 percent to 50 percent discount through closing. "We will give the same discount to orders as to in-stock items until Easter," he said.

Weinstein also is a wholesale car dealer and National Football League timekeeper. When the store is closed, he'll run Weinstein Investment Co., a commercial real estate business. Patricia Weinstein sells an in-home women's clothing line, Cabi.

I'm not sure I agree. There are those, who holy cow, prefer chains over the other more local establishments. That is the day and age we live in. I admit from time to time, I like to frequent a TGI Friday's or the like to grab a bite. Not that I am saying I prefer them, but they sometimes hit the spot. But why do I as many on the far east side have to drive to the west side or Ashwaubenon to grab a bite to eat at one of these places? If they are going to exist, and yes they will exist sometime on the east side, why not now when there is such a large segment of popultion that is so underserved when it comes to places such as these. If gas hits $4 a gallon this spring, the drive of a couple of miles will change my mind. Maybe that will force them to come on over.

So what would attract you to go to a TGI fridays over any of the restaurants I mentioned? The Applebee's like menu or the Chili's like atmosphere? :ohno: The people that go to these restaurants are the types that will drive across town for the typical crappy service and mediocre food.

There is a logistics company in Ashwaubenon that is currently in a converted grocery store by WG&R. I have heard that the company that owns the building wants to turn it back into retail and when the lease runs out they are not going to renew it. Just think what a few hundred people would do for the downtown area if the city could get them to relocate down there.

I used to work for that logistics company and whereas I have no direct knowledge of this, I would think that they would want to stay close to the corporate headquarters on Waube and Packerland. In fact, the corporate headquarters was built with expansion on the shorter north wing in mind, I believe.

That being said, and we've discussed this before, Schneider would be a great addition to the downtown in any capacity.

So what would attract you to go to a TGI fridays over any of the restaurants I mentioned? The Applebee's like menu or the Chili's like atmosphere? :ohno: The people that go to these restaurants are the types that will drive across town for the typical crappy service and mediocre food.

If I could reply, I would say that in general the large chains are much more family friendly (those with children), many don't allow smoking (which is very big IMO) or the cliental just doesn't smoke. My wife and I got lucky last night and found a babysitter so we went to Coaches Corner, I like the place but I would never bring kids there. We also like to go to Pearly Gates and the Woods or Highland Howies, but those places are smoke pits. I think that the big appeal with chains is their consistency, they try to maintain their establishment to specific guidelines, so whether you are in Green Bay or Tampa Bay you have a similar experience. It all deals with ones comfort level. Some like to try new things and others well...

So what would attract you to go to a TGI fridays over any of the restaurants I mentioned? The Applebee's like menu or the Chili's like atmosphere? :ohno: The people that go to these restaurants are the types that will drive across town for the typical crappy service and mediocre food.

Not everyone who would be attracted to Green Bay from other areas have heard of our local favorites. Although one would not make a choice to move to an area based on national franchises alone, imagine driving through the Green Bay area making a choice to live here and you are from a larger market and you don't see any familiar places... I'm not saying these should come in here and drive out any local establishments because I'm not. People have different tastes and perceptions and having a wide variety of choices is what makes a place more appealing. You look at Milwaukee and Madison and for a lesser degree Appleton and it seems like all these places can coexist. I will still go to Hinterland, Highland Howie's, 1001 Club, and the like but not everyone knows of those places on a national level. If getting a TGI Friday's on the east side would attract 100 new people to live in Green Bay (not that it would) soon enough they would venture out and try these places. Not everyone has the same food tastes. And if I am a typcial drone who loves crappy service, blah menus, and the same tired decore, then who is anyone to judge?

On a side note, has anyone seen a rendering for the Shopko development on Broadway?

Plus, Steve - Hey what happened to the lower sconce lights on the Bellin Building. Only one is lit up at night???