I Don't really have a problem with chain restaurants, but I like to choose good local restaurants whenever possible. I do go to chains too, though. We've seen a glut of new ones enter the GB market over the past 10 years. It's been intereseting to see how they start out with a bang, all busy and bustling and clean and good..but now 5-10 years later, some of them seem to have worn out a bit... food quality slipping, fewer customers, not maintained as well, etc. They all come & go.

It's been intereseting to see how they start out with a bang, all busy and bustling and clean and good..but now 5-10 years later, some of them seem to have worn out a bit... food quality slipping,...


Sounds like marriage.

^^After 15-20 years it's more like this:

http://beat.bodoglife.com/wp-content/uploads/drunk_david_hasselhoff.jpg

:cheers::banana::clown::dance2::scouserd::puke:

OK OK...I couldn't resist!

So, anyway, what do you think the chances of Astor groundbreaking is this month? I'd put it at 50% and dropping. Old topic, yeah I know.....But not much else to talk about I guess.......

Holy crap! THis thing says I'm at my 500th post. That can't be right! Let's say, my average thoughtless rambling post takes me 5 minutes to write. 5x500 = 2500 minutes, or 42 hours!! Geesh.

Puant- That picture actually just made me laugh for the first time today so thanks.

As far as the groundbreaking on Astor Place I am going to be really aggressive and say at least a 50% chance that it will happen in March. Just the fact that it was publicized how Vetter was able to secure that grocer from California and all that he is bringing to this development in terms of retail space I almost think that Vetter now has to proceed for fear of losing that tenant.

Puant....way too funny! I might have to change my name to KITT....

http://www.slashfilm.com/wp/wp-content/images/kit.jpg

Anyone think there is an argument that Favre's retirement will have possibly a small impact on future developement? I would guess there will be less people traveling to games, bringing less money into hotels & restaurants. I'm still holding out hope he might change his mind. Long shot!

No! Sure it is a sad day for us Packer fans but Brett Favre isn't bigger than the Packers.

I have faith that despite losing the greatest player the Packers have had that the Packers will overcome this loss.

One can look at this as. If the Packers can move forward and still be a competitive team that the city of Green Bay like wise can too move forward a become a better more forward looking city.

I am going out on a limb here and will say that Astor has about a 0% chance of breaking ground this month. Recently it has been said River Center would take the forefront starting first of the two projects and we see how close that this is to going even though the museum is supposed to be open this fall.

As far as the Favre retirement having an affect on development in Green Bay. Also going out on a limb and saying a 0% chance of that. I know many up here thinks the sun rises and sets on this man, and not taking anything away from all of his accomplishments and publicity that he has brought our city, but the City of Green Bay is bigger than Brett Favre. Developers will develop here if there is money to be made and projects will work. Not if Brett Favre is the QB of the Green Bay Packers...

I'm with GB4L, no way they break ground this month. If I remember correctly they needed to sell more units before they could proceed and the dollar amount seemed pretty significant. I'm not aware of any advertising push over the last month or so. I'm guessing we'll see another go at selling more units this spring but I'd be shocked if they broke ground in the next 27 days.

As for Favre, :cry:

you know, i found this under the advisory committee minutes from last december and i found it very interesting so i decided to post it thinking most of the people on here have not seen it either. hopefully all this information is even better now that we are 3 months further into the planning and financing process.


4. Request by Ald. Zima for an update and action on the long expired agreement and default by Vetter Denk as to the development of the Flatley Park site.

Ald. Weber updated the Committee on action taken by the Redevelopment Authority at their meeting held earlier in the day. He indicated that John Vetter gave an update to the RDA on the Astor Place project and the River Center project. He stated that the Development Agreement on the Astor Place project had expired on November 1st and the RDA gave an extension on the Development Agreement until June 1, 2008.



Mr. Vetter addressed the committee stating that at the RDA meeting, they talked about understanding the correlation between the two projects and said the success of the Astor Place project depends on a clear understanding from the community of the River Center project. He gave a power point presentation update on the Astor Place project highlighting six different categories: Leasing, Design, Construction, Legal, Finance and Sales. He indicated that they are looking at a groundbreaking in March and the project should take 18 months.



Mr. Vetter said the River Center project demolition started in May and will be finished in the next two weeks. He said Washington Street is now open again and returned to the street grid, connecting the whole area to the water front. He also reviewed the schedule/timeline for the project, stating that 2008 will be a year of construction, and in March, 2009 the River Center project would be complete.



Jim Schields of HGA Architects shared a power point of developments his firm has done in Milwaukee and showed renderings of Astor Place. Ald. Theisen inquired about the Admiral Flatley monument, with Mayor Schmitt responding that the monument was relocated in a park behind the Chamber of Commerce, with the approval of the United Patriotic Society. Mr. Shields showed a parking ramp which will be closed from the front, with the backside being left open for venting.



Ald. Zima inquired of Mr. Vetter about sales to date for the River Center, residential, with Mr. Vetter stating that this will be 64 apartments in this component and they are not starting the presale campaign until February for the loft condos. Ald. Zima said that the Development Agreement stated that the closing date for the Development would be September 2006. Atty. Swanson said Ald. Zima was questioning two different things, adding that the date the property for Astor Place was sold to the developer was in July or August of 2006 and the Development Agreement expired on November 1, 2006. Ald. Fradette stated that the RDA extended the agreement to June, 2008 and cautioned Ald. Zima that only the Astor Place project is on the agenda.



Ald. Zima inquired that ¾ of the retail space is consumed for an organic grocery store, organic café and fitness & spa with a juice bar? Mr. Vetter confirmed this as correct. Ald. Zima asked about the sale of the condos, to which Mr. Vetter responded that $9.2 million in unit sales represents the sale of over 40 out of 95 condos, which is 70% of the finance packaging goals. Mr. Vetter said they hired a consultant with national contacts to assist with the financing goal. Mr. Vetter said they are trying to presale or get commitments for half of the $36 million project, which would be $17 million and would be one half of the units. He again said they look at 70% of the building being sold, volume wise.



Ald. Vanderleest inquired if the Council could receive updates every six months from Mr. Vetter. Ald. Weber suggested sending a communication to Rob Strong, and Atty. Swanson said Mr. Vetter attends the RDA meetings more often than every six months. Mr. Vetter said he would be happy to give updates, adding that there will be things happening on the projects weekly and monthly and said it’s good public relations to keep the Council updated.



Motion made by Ald. Vanderleest, second by Ald. Jeffreys to receive and place on file Ald. Zima’s request for an update and action on the expired agreement and default by Vetter Denk as to the development of the Flatley Park site.



Ald. Zima opened discussion on the city’s expenditures for the project. Atty. Swanson said the city borrowed $1 million and have spent about $600,000 of that money, adding that the money was spent for street construction and utilities. She said the city allocated about $1million for relocation of utilities and street construction, and another $2 million was allocated for the CityDeck. She stated that the $2 million was not borrowed and they have not borrowed any money for the developer. She stated that $6.5 million is the total for the Astor Place project and $33.2 million is the city’s guaranteed minimum for the project. Atty. Swanson said that the developer owns the property and is paying taxes on it. If the property taxes are not sufficient to cover the debt that the city has incurred, the developer will be invoiced for the difference in the debt service amount each year. She said the city will not be borrowing any more money until the construction is started. Ald. Zima said the total of the Astor Place project is $6.7 million, not $6.5.



A vote was taken on the motion to receive and place on file. Motion carried.

We've been looking for a second location for our fitness center. We inquired about the vetter property, and other than small conversation with the realtor agent we have not heard back from her in over six months.

We've been looking for a second location for our fitness center. We inquired about the vetter property, and other than small conversation with the realtor agent we have not heard back from her in over six months.
If the realtor isn't responding to your needs, go to the top, the developer himself. If he doesn't respond, it's not worth your time. I can't see why the Vetter team wouldn't aggressively pursue any possible tenant at this point. Best of luck!

We've been looking for a second location for our fitness center. We inquired about the vetter property, and other than small conversation with the realtor agent we have not heard back from her in over six months.
I agree, If you are considering a Astor location and Jen Kuo (920.737.9778) isn't getting back with you then, I too would go right to the Man, John Vetter (414-223-3388). I am not sure how much space that you are looking for but the Astor space may be a bit limited, I would imagine that the neighboring River Center project may be able to accommodate your needs.

I might also considering contacting the City planning department, they may have a heads up on some properties that may be available, or at a minimum get you in contact with the correct people. Good luck.

I wonder how much damage occured?

By Mike Hoeft and Corinthia McCoy
mhoeft@greenbaypressgazette.com, cmccoy@greenbaypressgazette.com

A fire that displaced a little more than 100 residents today appeared to be accidental, fire officials said during press conference this afternoon.

Today’s early morning fire at Port Plaza Towers in downtown Green Bay forced residents to take up temporary shelter at an area parish.

The fire was reported at 3:52 a.m. in an eighth-floor apartment at Port Plaza Towers, 304 N. Adams St., in Green Bay. Officials said the fire started in the living room and contained electrical items. The tenant was not home at the time. The fire was contained to the apartment, said Capt. Chris Heil with the Green Bay Fire Department.

Tina Melotte, who lives on the fifth floor, was already up when she heard the fire alarms sound.

"I grabbed a jacket and threw on shoes and ran," Melotte said.

Outside, she helped check off names of residents on a clipboard as they left. Many wore only pajamas or robes, she said.

"I'm glad nobody was hurt," she said.

The cause of the fire and extent of damage were unknown this morning, said Green Bay Fire Lt. Nick Craig. It was unknown how long tenants would be displaced.
Power was shut off to the building.

A sprinkler system activated just outside the top floor apartment and helped contain the blaze, Craig said.

The eight-story building was built in 1923 as the 300-room Northland Hotel. It was converted to assisted-living units in 1979. It is owned by the non-profit Wisconsin Housing Preservation Corp. of Madison, according to online Brown County land records.

The American Red Cross assisted about 100 tenants who were evacuated from the building.

Green Bay Transit buses took the displaced residents to St. Willebrord Catholic Parish, 209 S. Adams St.

About 25 Red Cross volunteers planned to provide meals through the noon hour at the parish’s gathering center, said Jody Weyers, Red Cross communications director.

"Once we know which residents can get back in, we will assess the emergency needs of those remaining," she said.

Inspection crews continue to investigate the fire and will determine if residents will move back in, but the apartment where the fire started and one next door, are considered uninhabitable, said Division Chief Rob Goplin. Volunteers have set up cots in case residents are not allowed back into the building tonight, Weyers said.

Volunteers gave out beverages, extra clothing and quilts that had been donated. The Red Cross received assistance from Brown County Emergency Management.

Port Plaza Towers-

I am glad that no one was hurt, but maybe this is a blessing in disguise and someone will come in now and turn it back into a luxury hotel like it was meant to be when constructed in 1923.

Yet another Mr. K proposal that will fall through.....I did like his proposal on Site 4 a while back, nice looking building.

In addition to the restaurant, which is at the corner of Velp Avenue and U.S. 41, Kaczrowski owns adjoining land on which he plans a Wyndham Resort and Hotel. Kaczrowski said he's working with the village on a development agreement and tax-increment finance district. He would like for the hotel to open in April 2009, he said.

Retail development and a condominium tower are also possible, he has said.

http://greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080306/GPG03/803060530/1247

Yet another Mr. K proposal that will fall through.....I did like his proposal on Site 4 a while back, nice looking building.

In addition to the restaurant, which is at the corner of Velp Avenue and U.S. 41, Kaczrowski owns adjoining land on which he plans a Wyndham Resort and Hotel. Kaczrowski said he's working with the village on a development agreement and tax-increment finance district. He would like for the hotel to open in April 2009, he said.

Retail development and a condominium tower are also possible, he has said.

http://greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080306/GPG03/803060530/1247

Good luck with this. Most of the remaining property he bought is in the floodplain.

Good luck with this. Most of the remaining property he bought is in the floodplain.

^^Looks to me like the floodplain issue isn't a show-stopper, he's outside of the floodway and there is some buildable land available.

Seems to me, though, that there is a new hotel opening in the area on nearly a weekly or monthly basis these days.

As for Port Plaza Towers, it was a pretty serious fire but I think the tenants are already moving back in. I'm afraid if it was damaged badly enough, we'd simply see a wrecking ball come along and knock the place down.

When I think of locations for a Wyndham Resort that spot sure doesn't seem to be the best and most attractive site in the area. Maybe a hotel? I am not sure on that location at all, with the improvements coming in a few years to 41 and the upgrade to the interchange at 43 and Velp, I am pretty certain that the sight has a good chance at becoming smaller and more restricted for access. But lets be real, chances are really good that it won't be built.

From the press-gazette a few days back...

WPS shut down 2 coal generators at end of '07

Utility acted on lawsuit settlement

By Richard Ryman
rryman@greenbaypressgazette.com

Wisconsin Public Service Corp. permanently shut down two coal-fired electricity generators at its J.P. Pulliam Plant in Green Bay in December.

That and other actions the Green Bay-based utility took were to settle a lawsuit filed in 2005 by Clean Wisconsin and the Sierra Club. The parties reached a settlement in 2006.

The utility shut down Pulliam units 3 and 4, and upgraded units 5, 6, 7 and 8, said Howard Giesler, assistant vice president of energy supply. Their last day of operation was Dec. 28.

It also paid $500,000 to Wisconsin Energy Conservation Corp. and worked with Sierra Club on six energy-efficiency projects, Giesler said.

The lawsuit, filed in federal court, claimed that air-monitoring reports by WPS showed that Pulliam exceeded legal pollution limits in violation of the Clean Air Act.

Units 3 and 4 were rated at 30 megawatts each, but were running at only about 60 percent of capacity, the utility said when the agreement was announced. The units were 64 and 60 years old, respectively.

Pulliam 5 is the oldest operating coal-fired unit, beginning generation in the early 1950s, Giesler said. Unit 8 is the newest of those remaining, having been started in 1964.

The Pulliam Plant is a baseload plant, which means it is used daily to produce electricity.
With the shutdown of the two units, the Pulliam plant is rated to produce 313 megawatts of electricity.

The plant also has one natural-gas fired generating unit. It is rated at 83 megawatts.

WPS owns coal-fired plants in Weston and Green Bay. It has minority ownership in coal-fired plants in Portage and Sheboygan.

I have to imagine that the electrical consumption of the area is continually increasing and with the age of the plant...

Just try to imagine if that site became available for development, and the area surrounding it wasn't so industrial, now I think that would have great potential for a Wyndham Resort...

OK OK so we know that will never happen, but that would be an interesting location with the convergence of the river at the Bay. Do you think current regulations would allow construction of a new power plant there? or should we bank on the future- solar, fuel cell or even nuclear??

When I start imbibing a few Sierra Nevada Pale Ales, I get into pondering these things. As long as it's only a few. Too many, and I simply morph into a slack-jawed cretin. As long as I've only had a few tonight, here goes:

Green Bay will have its coal-fired plant there for a long long time. I can see both sides of this. It helps keep our electricity costs down and thus helps business and the economy. On the other hand if you've ever looked at these coal plants from a distance, some days you can often see the belching smoke producing a long brown smear extending across the horizon for miles and miles. I like to side with the environmentalists because humans have such an incredible history of recklessly ignoring the environmental concerns and consequences until it's far too late. This has happened time after time, including the pollution of our own Fox River which is already a Superfund site, one of the most polluted rivers in the world...When we can't even swim in the Bay without risking skin boils or eat the fish without the very real risk of developing tumors, why add to the problem by polluting the air too?

Well anyway I wouldnt' want to see a nuclear plant there. We already have 2 within meltdown striking distance of Green Bay. Solar isn't the answer, wind might be better, and other answers might be better still...but I'm afraid coal will be here to stay because the supply and energy output is so great. The Pulliam plant is well-equiped to receive either the western coal by rail or eastern coal by ship. The best we can ope for is a cleaner way of burning the coal. From that standpoint I'm glad they shut down the worst most polluting generators. Given the demand, they'll rebuild with newer, cleaner ones.

If we really wanted to solve this problem we'd have to simply consume less energy. I think that's the bottom line. But I say this at the risk of being a hypocrite, becasue like most everyone else, I consume waay too much energy myself.

I was shocked to find out today that Escanaba, MI has an 18 story apartment building. Damn, I thought our dream of the 17 story Astor Place would seal the deal on urban lifestyle north of Milwaukee. But Escanaba built a taller building 30 years ago? What is up with that?

http://harbortower.org/

I remember sailing into Escanaba as a teen and being shocked at that tall building on the horizon. It's not exactly the height of urban architecture and Escanaba is definitely not urban, but thanks for making me feel embarrassed by our downtown again. :ohno:

I know some of you remind us that an urban lifestyle does not require supertall buildings, but I know we all want them! :banana:

I was shocked to find out today that Escanaba, MI has an 18 story apartment building. Damn, I thought our dream of the 17 story Astor Place would seal the deal on urban lifestyle north of Milwaukee. But Escanaba built a taller building 30 years ago? What is up with that?

http://harbortower.org/

Funny that you say that, I was just going to say the same thing last week. I was working with a customer who was from Escanaba and he was saying there is a 20 story high-rise. I said oh really, I didn't know there was high rises in the U.P. Then I investigated and found the 18 story Harbor Tower. Amazing....maybe it was alot cheaper to build high rises back then in 1970's dollars compared to now a days? If only we could get the same building costs as Dubai (but they have horrible working conditions for those poor migrant workers). For a city the size of Green Bay we should at least be above 20 stories.

I'm not the Geography Teacher here, but once again I think the Escanaba situation comes back to geography. Although Escanaba is not a large city, the buildable land area is pretty restricted by the Lake on the east, some really large swamps on the west, and rivers surrounded by large swamps to the north and south. So they kinda had few choices but to build inward and upward. ANd Escanaba's economic base is also localized to the harbor (mining/shipping, tourism and such, I think). Unlike Green Bay, which went down and out as people spread pretty much unrestricted across the landscape. Also, we share so much of our economic base and move so easily between Appleton and the other Fox Cities, it's another big reason people spread out.

The view of the Escanaba harbor from that tower must be fabulous (especially in da moonlight).

Our skyline simply will never bristle with skyscrapers, not even when gas is $5 per gallon and nobody wants to drive as much any more. We'll be lucky if we can get a few. And really, a few is all I want, because I don't like how too many skyscrapers can block the sun.

The Harbor tower in Escanaba is the same tower that you can see in Oshkosh in the name of Court Tower which is 15 stories and I saw the same type of tower in Galesburg, IL which was in the 15 to 20 story range. I know the one in Oshkosh is county owned housing I think the one in Galesburg is too. I don't know if the tower in Escanaba is county owned housing but my bet is that it is

Yikes. I must say I'm thrilled that that building doesn't exist in Green Bay. It's hideous. Seeing that makes me even more in agreement with Danillo that bigger isn't necessarily better. I'd gladly take a 10-12 story Astor Place over a 20 story Harbor Tower. I'm coming to the realization that a visually striking and active downtown is vastly more important than a tall downtown.

Is anyone else having trouble finding this page? I used to be able to Google "Skyscrapercity Green Bay 3" and this thread would come right up but lately I've had to go to skyscrapercity.com and do a search for Green Bay. I know, life is just so hard...

Is anyone else having trouble finding this page? I used to be able to Google "Skyscrapercity Green Bay 3" and this thread would come right up but lately I've had to go to skyscrapercity.com and do a search for Green Bay. I know, life is just so hard...

I have a link in my Favorites to the "Midwest and Plains Development News" forum at this address: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=861

Then you just find "Green Bay Development News" from there. It should always be good even if a new thread is started.

Ahhh. I'm seeing the error of my ways. I could never find the GB forum when I'd look through the Midwest & Plains section. I now see that I have to click "development news" to get there. Thanks Geography Teacher.

It only took me 100 posts to get this thing figured out. Puant, 404 more posts from me and you'll be eating my dust.

According to Fox 11: A Green Bay landmark could be converted back into the Nrthland Hotel. On tonight's newson the plans. Port Plaza Towers just had a major fire last week. Now the city's talking like it could be converted back into a luxurious hotel as it started out. Could this be just a mayor pipe dream? Mayor says 2-3 developers interested in redeveloping it. Mayor says New York has the Waldorf Astoria, this is Green Bay's equivolent (uhh, OK). Need to find housing for the low-income people residing in the Port Plaza towers right now, first priority. Options for residents being looked at. Nothing done until that's done. If the Northland is renovated, he'd hope to make it available for visiting teams playing the Packers, just like it used to be in the old days (players from other teams stay in Appleton now). Would tie into the KI Convention center. Is another downtown hotel needed? I'd love to see something done, but again, only if the current residents can have an equal or better place to live. Recent blog article (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2008/01/hotel-northland-port-plaza-towers.html).

One thing I liked about this site when I first discovered it was that people seemed willing to share what was heard in the "rumor mill". Nowadays most people seem more reserved, holding stuff they've heard back.

I'm wondering if anyone's willing to share--if you have inside information--on the rumors or other talk behind developments such as the Grand Union or Astor or Prestige towers or anything else proposed recently. Are all of these project totally dead? C'mon, give us something!! Danillo? How about Avissers, are you still out there? Now that you're leaving the city employment, can you divulge anything??

I hear you Puant... there has been nothing. I haven't heard squat, not even any alledged projects. I have heard that the private residental developers are waiting to see a few positive months of data on the economy before making any moves as far a greenfield developments, new construction is way down and money is becoming harder to come by. There is that dark cloud hanging out there in the financial market, and until there is some progress in that area, I have a feeling that there is going to be a whole lot of caution. Does anyone here follow the bond market? Are people willing to finance a project that has may have a hard time if we hit a hard recession???

Well, I just don't think all that much is happening for anyone to report on. One thing I can comment on relates to the Northland Hotel. I know directly of two parties who have interest in some day redeveloping that site, and indirectly of one or two others. So if that ever does become developable, and provided there is a market for a hotel or residential there, I don't think that coming up with someone to do the project will be the big hurdle.

This housing situation really sort of pisses me off. You could see a few years ago when housing was about the only thing stimulating the economy that at some point the bubble had to burst. There are only so many people who can move/build/refinance, and as with all bubble, speculation exaggerates demand. What I didn't see coming was the number of idiot bankers/borrowers who got into bad loans. Sadly, I think the result is that there will just need to be some pain that the economy has to go through to re-adjust the market following the over-borrowing/over-lending/over-buying that took place. And while interest rates are, compared to historical levels, still low, they aren't going to go significantly lower until actual inflation or inflationary fears subside. Buy hey, at least the federal government isn't running up a huge, foreign-owned debt to make matter worse, right?

How all this affects downtown development remains to be seen. Obviously, individual condo-buyers and business that would potentially move downtown are going to be more cautious about making any moves when the economic future is uncertain. Doesn't mean no-one will move -- they will if it makes economic sense to do so. It's just that the level of assurance they need that it does make sense is greater.

With things now at a stalemate in downtown development is investing $12,000,000 into a broadwalk still a good idea. I know many here will say yes but the logically answer is of course not, since it originally was a certain mayor and his developer buddy tied a certain project into that boardwalk. If he is not going to build the COMPLETE project as promised why supply his the boardwalk. Time to call Guy and see if we can get this off the table until the mayor comes through for once with one of his promises.

^^ Actually, development of this was and is tied to projects along the river, not a "certain project." The plan has never been to build the whole thing at once. Parts will be built as the various projects along the riverfront come to completion and can contribute TIF towards the boardwalk. This is nothing new, and quite a sensible way to proceed. This has never been a project for and about Astor Place, and is worthy of development within the preceeding guidelines whether or not Astor Place is ever built. The idea that this is tied to one developer and one project is just a device opponents use to try to, essentially, class-bait people into opposing the project as well. Closer analysis of the boardwalk and it's potential effects for growth in the city reveal that it is important irrespective of any one building.

If you have a few minutes, read this article about a development in Nashville.
http://www.sldtonline.com/content/view/174/57/
The article is already several years old, but it seems like Green Bay should be modeling more of their ideas, such as active marketing, and pricing structure.

All 217 “Initial-Release” condominiums in the new residential tower sold out in an unprecedented 48-hour time period, representing over $72 million in total real estate sales. Initial-release units sold ranged in price from $175,000 to $850,000.

The value of the building is pretty decent for a max unit price of $850,000.

“While we were confident that we were working in the correct price points,” related Schaefer, “the pace of the sales was a little surprising. It just illustrates that a unique property designed to meet the right target demographics will be well-received by consumers.”

Maybe the price points of the River Center Lofts will be more in-line with this, but then it comes down to marketing/or lack of.

I see a lot a parallels here between the Nashville project and the Astor/Riverfront Lofts but I think that these are two very different projects, maybe some ideas could be incorporated into the mall site?

Take a look around, new ideas never hurt...

Here are a couple of the links to the developments.

http://www.velocityinthegulch.com/
http://www.nashvillegulch.com/index.html

One thing that I've heard recently that I think is fascinating: the section of the River Center that will house the children's museum and the parking ramp has recently begun construction, elsewhere. It's being made from pre-cast concrete, so all of the sections are being made at some kind of plant and then will be brought here to be assembled. I don't know if this constitutes breaking ground or not, but things are happening, just not visibly.

Regarding finding this thread, here's a tip that works (as far as I know) only if you're using OS X Leopard: 1. go up to the first page of this thread, 2. using Safari, make a 'web clip' of the portion of the webpage that includes the last page link, 3. put it in Dashboard. Then, all you need to do is open Dashboard and click the last page link and you'll go directly to the last page.

Unfortunately all three of those projects are rumors. They are "dangler" projects intended to draw attention, but never break ground. The lofts succeeded because they are down to GB's scale, and aren't a few of those unites now up for sale?

^^

What three projects are you referring to?

Unfortunately all three of those projects are rumors. They are "dangler" projects intended to draw attention, but never break ground. The lofts succeeded because they are down to GB's scale, and aren't a few of those unites now up for sale?

River Center has already broken ground my friend, at least a portion of it has. What are they drawing attention to anyways?

Danglers? I assume that you're talking about Grand Union, Astor, and the Prestige towers. Maybe sales targets aren't quite being met, it's kind of a shaky market, but I can't imagine that these aren't sincere projects. I'm aware of the work that's gone into Astor, and I'm pretty sure that it probably wasn't necessary if it were just meant as a "dangler." What makes you suggest this?

Nativist,
Thanks for the info on the Children's Museum. I often look at that hole in the ground and wonder just how the hell they plan to open this fall! Seems even if they bring in precast concrete, it would be very difficult to finish by November! We shall see. So I guess they're building this kind of like the other new parking ramp, street-level museum but essentially this building is a parking ramp. Well I hope it functions well and looks decent.

^^ The one nice thing with the pre-cast stuff is that once they start assembling that, it goes really fast. I remember the Cherry ramp going up and I couldn't believe how fast it came together. A fall/winter opening does seem fast, but who knows. As long as there's progress...

Yes, I am referring to Astor Place, Prestige Place and the Grand Union--but more so the first two. I purchased a unit at Astor Place shortly after Jen Kuo was offering them. I sat on it for a little bit, and, without a real notice, was told my money would be refunded because of lack of interest in the project. I guess I am bitter, but who on this post isn't? We have been waiting forever to see AstorPlace, and we'll be waiting forever to see it built. If you need proof just look at the website and how much advertising Vetter is doing. It's not so much a bad economy (there is tons of construction happening everyday all over the world, just no NE WI), it's the poor market of Green Bay and the demographics of Brown County. And honestly, how could Prestige ever get off the ground in Green Bay--the market can't support it. All projects (danglers) like AP and PP do is boost interest in the adjacent land and structure--it's like putting a Porsche out front with lights all over it, when all you have behind the fence is Yugo after Yugo--pardon the car metaphor, but Green Bay does not have a central city--it is a "commuter" town.

Ouch. The courts have ruled (again) that the city owes the owner of the former younker's building $5.4 million in the law suit regarding teh condemnation of it.

As for Fillmore's comments above--
I have to agree with much of what he says in that GB doesn't have much of a city center, and it is a "commuter" down (or at least, one of the most auto-dependent towns I've ever seen. The highways and roads are overbuilt, the beltline highways and other things are largely deserted..I don't know the stats, but I would think the people who live in this "small town" do more driving than any other equivalent town....lots of poeple live all over in places like Suamico and drive 20 miles to work in DePere or APpleton or East Green Bay, criss-crossing all over. I've never seen such so much driving for a "small town" yet, people don't realize how much they drive because they're conviced they're in a "small town" where everything is "5 minutes away". It's kind of crazy.

Anyway...
As always I am hoping to see this turn around in GB, to have the dowtown restored to something special and vibrant and full of people. Projects like the ones we talk about here could go a long ways in helping get there. And they in turn could bring more people down, hopefully snowballing such that we get that critical mass downtown that we all desire. I do think the market is here for someting like Astor or Grand Union, it's just tough to get some of these first big projects off the ground because so many people feel the same way Fillmore does...skeptical. But if we can get more projects going, addign to the many smaller projects already done or underway, more people will start to accept and believe that downtown is the place to be, once again. At least, that's my opinion.

I grew up in Green Bay and never saw a thing change downtown by the time I moved out in 93 (except the Port Plaza renovation). Last weekend I was in town and was impressed by how much has been built since I left. Even if it takes a few more years to get some of these projects off the ground, there is still an overall progression taking place downtown.

As for the road system there, it may seem overbuilt now but the extra capacity is there for the future. Nobody wants a city that is constantly at capacity. Add another 25 years worth of population and you will start seeing plenty of congestion, but planners by that time will probably have expanded capacity to meet needs for the next 25 years.

I purchased a unit at Astor Place shortly after Jen Kuo was offering them. I sat on it for a little bit, and, without a real notice, was told my money would be refunded because of lack of interest in the project.


Maybe it's just me, but I just find it hard to stomach that the developer (that already built one project) would accept your money for a condo, then return it. I guess I could see they might have to delay closing on sales until they get a sales goal down, but to out right refuse to reserve a condo for someone doesn't make sense. Is there some legal reason they can't hang on to your money as a down payment for 2 years? I think Vetter kind of backed himself in a corner with saying a March groundbreaking was likely. If he pushes it back one more time, the alderman & taxpayers might start saying enough is enough. The boardwalk should be breaking ground soon. The city tore apart the memorial at the site for developement. As the saying goes, &^*&^ or get off the pot.

Okay, I'm just going to come out and say what I've been thinking for a while but haven't said: I don't think Jen Kuo is up to handling a project like this. I think having a realator that can't handle the project has held it back, I hope not irrevocably. Not to absolve Vetter in that, he chose her and has stuck with her, but I'm guessing a developer more experienced with this sort of project would have gone with a larger real estate firm from the beginning. To be clear, Jen stepped up and tried, but the results are what they are so sometimes you just have to move on.

I do believe there is a market for this building. And with the completion of Riverfront Lofts and the excitement for the riverfront plan, I believe a more experienced team could have sold enough units that Astor Place would be well out of the ground already, if not dang near completed. Now, the economy has slowed, people are more conservative about buying real estate, and looking that the arc of this project, I'd say right to be skeptical.

I don't think it's dead yet, but unless there's something we don't know about sales, and if he contractually can, if I were Vetter I'd get a new realator on the project who has the ability to market it more aggressively and based on the lack of communication Fillmore has received, one who will do a better job of public relations and customer service.

Okay, I'm just going to come out and say what I've been thinking for a while but haven't said: I don't think Jen Kuo is up to handling a project like this. I think having a realator that can't handle the project has held it back, I hope not irrevocably. Not to absolve Vetter in that, he chose her and has stuck with her, but I'm guessing a developer more experienced with this sort of project would have gone with a larger real estate firm from the beginning. To be clear, Jen stepped up and tried, but the results are what they are so sometimes you just have to move on.

That is exactally what I was waiting for someone to say...

I threw the Nashville example out there because marketing really does make or break a project. After hearing the comment a few weeks back about someone making a effort to find out about leaseing for a health club biz in Astor and Ms. Kuo failing to get back to them, well folks, for a project hanging on by life support, those are not the words we needed to hear.

I occasionally see ads in the Biz section of the P/G for Astor, but how many people actually read the print paper?

Thare are billboards all over town about the Ashwaubenon Project -AVUE, if you drive anywhere I am sure that you have seen them. Even thought the billboard doesnt even tell you what the hell the AVUE is...

For now I also think the project is still around, and has a slim change on getting built, maybe downsized a bit, but there sure is interest for some condos.

http://www.kbsconstruction.com/projects_astor.html

We have also yet to see the condo portion of the River Center hit the market. Wasn't that supposed to be early 2008?

OK so I think that we can mutually agree that the marketing for Astor has sucked and Filmore is correct that the NE WI is really in a no growth mode, but I also agree with Puant that there is a market for Urban living, in the absence of an urban setting. So to quit rambling, we dont have much to loose if it doesn't get built at this point, because we will still have the green space, even though it is now brown...

And most of us have hope that downtown will eventally improve...

I know a lot of you are fond of the downtown YMCA, as am I. I have fond memories of the building. It is one of the few architecturally interesting buildings that hasn't met the bulldozer. And it is featured in today's P-G.

A is for Architecture: YMCA is a stout standout

By Warren Gerds
wgerds@greenbaypressgazette.com

A noted Green Bay center for health and fitness for decades is "really built."

The Downtown branch of the Greater Green Bay YMCA is 5½ stories of mass.

"The architectural style is Elizabethan-Tudor," said Ian Griffiths, project manager with Berners-Schober Associates.

"There were very few commercial buildings done in this particular style, but there are a number of them right here on this city block. The Architects Building (on the southeast corner of Pine and Adams streets), the YMCA and the Northland Hotel all show those same type of characteristics."

The YMCA is directly related to Berners-Schober. The architectural firm designed the building in 1924, and it later built its offices to complement the YMCA.

"Elizabethan-Tudor came out of 16th-century England, and the style is denoted by the half-timber work on the sides of the building," Griffiths said. "The steeply pitched gables on the elevations, the regular window patterns, the heavy weight and mass are some of the features of this architecture."

The building has visual pop on the interior as well.

Some craftsman styles of the era are found in the ceramic tiles on staircases, in a fireplace and in entry areas. The tile floor and a water fountain (for a former restaurant) also have decorative tile work.

It's believed the downtown Green Bay YMCA was a prototype for other YMCA buildings reaching into New York.

"It's not throwaway architecture," Griffiths said. "It is certainly a remarkable building to have in the city of Green Bay."

Because of strong construction techniques of the time, the building has maintained and held its character, he said.

"What I like about the building is not only is it an architectural building of quality, but it's a center for a lot of the community to come and gather and participate in community events," Griffiths said. "It's a generational building, where fathers, sons, wives and daughters can go and participate in quality activities."

So, some time ago I was talking about how I'd like to see an area in the southern portion of downtown made into a high-density residential neighborhood. Below is a map of what I sort of have in mind. I didn't pay too much attention to what I was bulldozing in the process, but you get the idea (I did leave Captain's Walk there though!).

The red lines are alleys, some of which already exist. Yellow is the residential with garage access from the alleys. Preferably there'd be a mix up upper-lower duplex housing and single-residence housing within blocks, and each block or half-block of row-houses could be different stylistically so that there's something for a wider variety of tastes and so the area is more interesting. Retail/Commercial areas are green. In theory the upper levels above the end of block commercial space could be housing as well. The light blue is ramp parking. Hopefully some sort of retail on the Adams across from the courthouse, and as you see the Washington St. ramp would be behind a retail/commercial building, or preferably, buildings.

The point is, something like this would really add to the density downtown, and would be a downtown living option that allows people to still have a more single-family type house with their own basement and garage, which I think many people would prefer, while still being close to the downtown amenities. It gets rid of a lot of surface parking, and the residential would provide parking for itself without a ramp. I'm not totally sure the Adams St ramp would even be necessary, or if it would fit in that space, but I thought I'd throw it in anyway. Better still would be retail/commercial infill there.

Also, this sort of development can be built more on-demand than a tower, and if there was interest would require much lower sales goals to begin building piece by piece. Anyway, that's what I'd like to see in general.

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/rowhouses.jpg

Yes, I am referring to Astor Place, Prestige Place and the Grand Union--but more so the first two. I purchased a unit at Astor Place shortly after Jen Kuo was offering them. I sat on it for a little bit, and, without a real notice, was told my money would be refunded because of lack of interest in the project. I guess I am bitter, but who on this post isn't? We have been waiting forever to see AstorPlace, and we'll be waiting forever to see it built. If you need proof just look at the website and how much advertising Vetter is doing.


Just out of curiosity, which unit did you reserve? I know it is difficult to go off of the current sales page because who knows when that was last updated. Just interested to know because so many units are still pending or sold - then why would they return your initial deposit if there is still cause to move forward and as Vetter said at the RDA, they are only 4 units to sell away and securing financing for the project to be a go. Obviously some of those 4 would need to be the more expensive ones, but it just seems odd...

So, some time ago I was talking about how I'd like to see an area in the southern portion of downtown made into a high-density residential neighborhood. Below is a map of what I sort of have in mind. I didn't pay too much attention to what I was bulldozing in the process, but you get the idea (I did leave Captain's Walk there though!).

The red lines are alleys, some of which already exist. Yellow is the residential with garage access from the alleys. Preferably there'd be a mix up upper-lower duplex housing and single-residence housing within blocks, and each block or half-block of row-houses could be different stylistically so that there's something for a wider variety of tastes and so the area is more interesting. Retail/Commercial areas are green. In theory the upper levels above the end of block commercial space could be housing as well. The light blue is ramp parking. Hopefully some sort of retail on the Adams across from the courthouse, and as you see the Washington St. ramp would be behind a retail/commercial building, or preferably, buildings.

The point is, something like this would really add to the density downtown, and would be a downtown living option that allows people to still have a more single-family type house with their own basement and garage, which I think many people would prefer, while still being close to the downtown amenities. It gets rid of a lot of surface parking, and the residential would provide parking for itself without a ramp. I'm not totally sure the Adams St ramp would even be necessary, or if it would fit in that space, but I thought I'd throw it in anyway. Better still would be retail/commercial infill there.

Also, this sort of development can be built more on-demand than a tower, and if there was interest would require much lower sales goals to begin building piece by piece. Anyway, that's what I'd like to see in general.

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/rowhouses.jpg

Dan,
I think a lot of this is great! Thanks for doing that. My reaction is that I know you didn't put much thought into what you 'bulldozed'...one thing you whacked include Chase Bank. But you know, most of their parcel is just surface parking that they rent out a lot of anyway. Maybe it's time they move into a new or renovated bank building to keep up with the Jones (Nicolet, Johnson Banks, and I suppose Baylake). A new CHase bank could look good somewhere else downtown, or even integrated into a plan like yours, mixed with the residential.
Another thing you displaced was the police department. I thought about that a little, and was thinking that keeping the police dept down there might help give the perception of being a "safe" area. I do wonder if there's a better location for them though.
St. Willy's church would lose suface parking, which I'm sure they wouldn't be crazy about; however, if you did get your parking ramp kitty-corner that might ease that pain. The ramp would get used weekends by the church, and then during the week the ramp would be used for parking for the downtown employees, courthouse visitors, etc. That way the ramp gets used 7 days / week, always good thing for those expensive things.
Overall I love the whole concept, even if it isn't all realistic (you all know I like to dream too) and I totally agree with you on the ideas that these could bring density, develop over time, be a niche for those who want urban living but don't want to live in a condo tower or apartment. Too bad none of this will happen.....

Someone posted a comment over on my blog, saying the mayor or somebody is hoping to close the old Fire Station 1 at the corner of Washington & Chicago. Does anyone know if this rumor has anything to it?

I know a lot of you are fond of the downtown YMCA, as am I. I have fond memories of the building. It is one of the few architecturally interesting buildings that hasn't met the bulldozer. And it is featured in today's P-G.
There was also a photo naritive to go along.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/includes/newspaper/assets/soundslides/031908downtownYMCA/

Thanks Jeff- Downtown Green Bay

Someone posted a comment over on my blog, saying the mayor or somebody is hoping to close the old Fire Station 1 at the corner of Washington & Chicago. Does anyone know if this rumor has anything to it?

I haven't heard anything recentaly, there was talk of closing it a few years back, but I think that some near downtown people spoke up, claiming that by closing it the responce times would be unacceptable, with the next closest stations being the one near West High and also University Ave. one at Webster. I would imagine with the high taxes the city already has and the ballooning health care issue, that closing the station will always be on the table as a means to cut the budget.

just to throw some more comments out there I think that the ideas that you bring up Dan are rigth in line with what we need. One additional thought that I had was that it would be better to start or at least expand more to the south at Mason St. with some row houses (you know that we will need that space by the courthouse for our booming office buildings). I don't know what the real estate is worth down there but I would imagine that it would come with a heafty price tag, even if its current use is only parking.

Oh and also maybe some green space? or cental neighborhood space away from the river?

So I was enjoying an excellent lunch at Quincy's today and was placed at a table along Washington St. The entire time I was there I saw a surveying crew out next to the daily planet. I assumed that it had something to do with The Grand Union, but I would have thought that they would have had all of that work done already. Anyone know why they may have been out there or if the Grand Union has announced anything new in terms of a start date, etc?

I was offered two units, one on the fifth and one on the seventh floor.

I was offered two units, one on the fifth and one on the seventh floor.


Take the 7th floor! :banana:

Did anyone see the new maps for the Hwy 41 expansion? I believe they just released this on the DOT website for GB. It is quite the upgrade for the existing hwy, mostly 8 lanes wide if you count the auxillary lane. Lets say you exit off of 41 at Velp, you cannot get to 43 from there when they build the new hwy. You would have to go all the way down to the Ft. Atkinson exit. I can see why, it is already a clusterf*** there near the 43/41 interchange. Still not sure how they Mr. K thinks he can build a Wyndham near Duck Creek.

What's with all the roundabouts, especially near the new 41/29 interchange? Is this some kind of new trend?

Here is a link to all the PDF maps posted...
http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/us41expansion/brown-int.htm

^^

Yes, roundabouts are a newer trend. They have been used extensively in Europe for a long time and the Green Bay area has a number of communities that have used them for a while, as well. There is a minor learning curve for new drivers, but any accidents that occur are far less dangerous. We have about 10 of them (I think) in De Pere and they seem to control traffic pretty well.

Did anyone else see this article and picutre in the PG today showing "Astor Place" under construction?

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080322/GPG0101/80322011/1207/GPGnews

Got to love the PG!: :ohno:

What's with all the roundabouts, especially near the new 41/29 interchange? Is this some kind of new trend?

Here is a link to all the PDF maps posted...
http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/us41expansion/brown-int.htm

Yes, roundabouts are going up everywhere on 41. In the 41 expansion from Neenah to Hwy 26 south of Oshkosh they will have the same thing. Instead of traffic lights near the exits, there will be roundabouts when get onto the exit ramp leaving the highway. Brown County is already the roundabout capital of Wisconsin. I actually like them, but I know plenty of people around here absolutely avoid them like the plague. Hwy 41 will probably see 60 to 70 new roundabouts along the 2 areas of 41's expansion in 3 years. The DOT said they would add 130 more roundabouts in Wisconsin within 5 years.

Yes, roundabouts are going up everywhere on 41. In the 41 expansion from Neenah to Hwy 26 south of Oshkosh they will have the same thing. Instead of traffic lights near the exits, there will be roundabouts when get onto the exit ramp leaving the highway. Brown County is already the roundabout capital of Wisconsin. I actually like them, but I know plenty of people around here absolutely avoid them like the plague. Hwy 41 will probably see 60 to 70 new roundabouts along the 2 areas of 41's expansion in 3 years. The DOT said they would add 130 more roundabouts in Wisconsin within 5 years.
I counted 24 proposed roundabouts in the US 41 Green Bay project area when I was at a WisDOT hearing on the project late last year.

They are quite appropriate in many situations where signals and four-way STOP signs are now used. I wish that WisDOT would install some at US 41/WI 125 (College Av), US 41/WI 96 (Wisconsin Av) and US 41/WI 15/County 'OO' (Northland Av) here on Appleton's west side. The delays that those current signalized ramp intersections can be many blocks long at certain times of the day.

As for separating Velp Av from I-43 on the northwest side, that was an edict from the Feds - the FHWA will not allow such close and tight ramps for new interstate upgrades. US 41 is scheduled for 'promotion' to full interstate status at an as yet undetermined future time.

Mike

Did anyone else see this article and picutre in the PG today showing "Astor Place" under construction?

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080322/GPG0101/80322011/1207/GPGnews

Got to love the PG!: :ohno:


Maybe we missed the ground breaking...

or

maybe the river center has become Astor Place cut in half???

I also wonder if anyone reviews anyones work over there...

Well it sounds as Mr. Vissers should be pretty busy, hopefully trying to contain the rabid sprawl that is sure to explode, when the economy picks up. The only thing I can think of that will stop it is $10/gal gas.

At least they list two of the worst types of sustainable developments possible...

Posted March 24, 2008

Bellevue looks ahead to growth in village

Wal-Mart, Bellin College of Nursing among additions

By Sara Boyd
sboyd2@greenbaypressgazette.com

BELLEVUE — With Wal-Mart and the Bellin College of Nursing on its way, the village of Bellevue hopes to be a booming area in the upcoming years, said Aaron Oppenheimer, village administrator.

"I think there's a lot of excitement and some anticipation of these projects moving forward," he said. "There is some anticipation in seeing the snow gone and the contractors moving in."

Hoping that both will lure other businesses to the area, officials have quite a lot to do, and with that could come a number of challenges, he said.

It's a perfect time for the new community development director to jump on board, he said.

Andrew Vissers, a previous planner for the city of Green Bay, joined the staff March 10 to help in the recruitment and organization of new economic development in the village, among other components. It's the first time the community has had such a position, Oppenheimer said.

"We've had planners in the past," he said, "but not at the department head level."

Vissers said after about two weeks on the job, he's eager to get involved in all the projects for Bellevue.

With the Bellin College of Nursing making its way through approvals to locate at the northwest corner of Eaton and South Huron roads, the Bellin Health Clinic headed for South Huron Road and Brown County JJ and Wal-Mart kicking off the business park at Wisconsin 172 and Brown County GV, it's safe to say Vissers will have his hands full.

"It's obviously overwhelming, but exciting at the same time because of the opportunities I think that Bellevue has at its doorstep," he said. "If the economy turns around in this area, and the metro area continues to expand, I think Bellevue really stands at both the right time and the right place to capture some economic growth."

Right now, the push is for new businesses in the area, hoping to capitalize on the existing growth taking place, Oppenheimer said.

"We have been receiving several calls, mostly for the GV/172 area, Wal-Mart is a huge draw for other businesses," he said. "There are other developers that look at where Wal-Mart is locating and making some decisions where they should locate."

Vissers said he looks forward to working with the businesses that are currently located in Bellevue to make sure they are a part of the development equation.

Because Vissers is the first to fulfill a community development director role, he said laying the foundation of creating an aggressive business climate — through retention and expansion — will be key.

"I think we have a good start, but we still have to work very diligently to see if we can attract other businesses," he said. "I feel that it's going to be very challenging in the future but I'm glad to be here to help out."

I was driving down Washington Street today and I observed a bunch of people scattered around a survey crew, it looked as if they were gathering some elevation data. Hopefully we will see activity pick up there. I would assume that there would need to be some additional underground support work there, unless they have determined that the existing foundation work is indeed OK.

The handful of taller buildings I've seen go up always start with a hole in the ground probably 2 stories down. Then dozens of footings go in for the foundation before they fill it in and start raising the building. But I don't know if that's what we would see at the Astor Place site at some point.

I was driving down Washington Street today and I observed a bunch of people scattered around a survey crew, it looked as if they were gathering some elevation data. Hopefully we will see activity pick up there. I would assume that there would need to be some additional underground support work there, unless they have determined that the existing foundation work is indeed OK.


Which site on Washington Street?

I poked around on Wash ave today. All I saw in terms of hints of possible development at the corner of Walnut & Wash was some new survey & utility markers. Otherwise the site looks pretty much as it always has--empty. Except now the large poster of the Grand Union is cracked and about to fall down.

I did post some new pics of River Center on my blog tho.

BTW. The Bellin Building interior is just cool. Morning, day and night. The coffee place always seems pretty busy. We know from our SSC get-together that the bar is hopping at night. It's just a really cool place. I love it.

Which site on Washington Street?
Oh silly me... I was refering to the Childrens Museum area, the "old" wooden frame part of the Pranges complex. I seem to recall that one of the main reasons for demolition of that part was that the foundation was all wood piles and would not hold up the new structure. So I was thinking... I am not sure what the survey crew could be up too as it seems that they would need to excavate the old foundation out and then as Double mentioned dig down a floor or two. I know that Nicolet Bank has underground parking but I have to imagine that with the river being in such close proximity that one level might be the limit.

Anyways it wasn't the Astor site, it was the River center and it seems that something might be happening soon.

When was that ground breaking scheduled for Astor? March? there still are a few days left.

Oh silly me... I was refering to the Childrens Museum area, the "old" wooden frame part of the Pranges complex. I seem to recall that one of the main reasons for demolition of that part was that the foundation was all wood piles and would not hold up the new structure. So I was thinking... I am not sure what the survey crew could be up too as it seems that they would need to excavate the old foundation out and then as Double mentioned dig down a floor or two. I know that Nicolet Bank has underground parking but I have to imagine that with the river being in such close proximity that one level might be the limit.

Anyways it wasn't the Astor site, it was the River center and it seems that something might be happening soon.

When was that ground breaking scheduled for Astor? March? there still are a few days left.
Here is someting I read recently "The long-awaited River Center project is now under way and developer John Vetter says the Astor Place condominium project at the corner of Washington and Main streets will break ground in November."

Personally I would not hold my breath that it will happen this year. He keeps pushing it out and out. DA Mayor's personal choice does not seem to be getting it done for him.

Here is someting I read recently "The long-awaited River Center project is now under way and developer John Vetter says the Astor Place condominium project at the corner of Washington and Main streets will break ground in November."

Personally I would not hold my breath that it will happen this year. He keeps pushing it out and out. DA Mayor's personal choice does not seem to be getting it done for him.


I also read the same thing off of the link provided by the "Packerland Annals". I was guessing that the article might have been created before November of last year. Just a guess. I'm probably wrong.

I also read the same thing off of the link provided by the "Packerland Annals". I was guessing that the article might have been created before November of last year. Just a guess. I'm probably wrong.

I'm not sure the board will give them another extension to delay the ground breaking out till Nov, especially after they signed the commercial tenants a couple months ago. I think that article is a bit older, if you read the dates for the Grand Union, it states starting this year and finishing in late 2008, not sure that is possible for a building of that scale.

Sorry, I should have made it more clear that the Marketplace Magazine article (http://marketplacemagazine.com/main.asp?SectionID=10&SubSectionID=10&ArticleID=284&TM=51506.95)was older, from last summer I think. I was tempted to write in my blog "The Big Mo Is No Go" or "Uh Oh No Mo Mo" or someting like that, but the fat lady is only just warming up her voice.

Regarding the Beillin building: I just love that I get to use the Belling Bldg. now. It's always been a favorite, but one I had to admire from outside. But now I try to get down there at least once a week for a coffee. If you sit on the sofa, get enough of a caffeine buzz going, and squint, you can almost imagine that you are actually in an urban area! If the Grand Union ever gets built, that will be even easier to do.

As for Astor Place, I think by now the start has been predicted for every month of the year at one point or another. So I'd put it this way, it will start if/when it starts.

Started talking to vetter regarding astor place commerical space for our second location of Titletown Fitness. Not sure if it can be done only 4000 sq ft available. We'll see, I hope we can figure something out. We're also looking at the Circut City building on the far west side. I'll keep you posted.

^^I think it would be great if you could work your business into Astor. Just out of curiosity, did Vetter offer any other space, such as in the River Center?

Also curious if you might be willing to look into other downtown spaces. Would the Frankenthal BUilding (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2007/10/frankenthal-building.html), for example, on the corner of Adams & Cherry work for you? I believe there is about 5000 - 6000 sq. ft. available there. The building is not outfitted with the proper utilities for things like restaurants, and because apparently it doesn' t have a basement it's tough to make it work for anything but retail...Or perhaps a fitness center would work well here? I don't see why not, but then again I don't know all that much about your needs. I have no vested interest other than it seems like such a great building on a prominent downtown corner and when I walk by it bugs me to see it sit there vacant.

Otherwise, if you wanted to be closer to Astor and the riverfront, what about waiting until the street grid is put back through the mall? There is a Madison developer looking into the rest of the mall site, and they're supposed to be coming out with some sort of proposal shortly. The developer is named Terrance Wall (or T. Wall).

There is also the possibility of the Grand Union (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2007/11/grand-union.html)at the corner of Washington & Walnut. Have you inquired with them?

Just my $0.02.

^^ Personally I think it would be really cool to be on a treadmill, elliptical, etc and be able to look out the 6th or 7th story window of the Grand Union and see the city as I run. I don't know if the Grand Union would want something like that in there (I for some reason remember them saying office space only) but its still a cool thought.

Anyways, my mind began to wander today as I was studying, as it usually does, and I couldn't help but wonder why Green Bay has such a negative attitude towards downtown. I know that the mall site being empty doesn't help, but why does it seem like the whole city is anti downtown development? I know almost all of you in here agree with me, but WHY is everyone just so down on downtown? Is it the fact that almost every proposed project doesn't get off the drawing board? Maybe more of these projects would if more people showed an interest in the area.

It just seems like every other city in America our size or even smaller (Duluth, Rochestor, Wausau, Appleton) rallies behind there downtown and has a thriving urban environment (some even have a skyline) and then you get to Green Bay nobody cares about downtown. They would rather brag about the fact that we are getting a Chili's now. I just don't get it. Sorry for this small rant, I guess its back to studying now.

... but WHY is everyone just so down on downtown? Is it the fact that almost every proposed project doesn't get off the drawing board? ...

Its because of the parking perception. People treat going downtown as a production because it requires them to plan in advance where they're going to park, where they're going to walk, etc. Its unfortunate that they don't realize that unless you're going to downtown Chicago, parking is fairly easy. Definately easier than parking at Walmart, let alone the mall.

Downtown is really a hassle when you think about people's habits. It's easy for people to hop in the car and see a huge parking lot and walk a hundred yards to Wal-Mart. It's not in people's realm of thinking to find a meter, walk a block and shop in a hole in the wall store where you will be the only customer. It's just outside of the majority of Green Bay's comfort zone.

In a medium sized city like Madison or St. Paul, downtown thrives because people are there for their jobs. That forced exposure gets people more comfortable with the idea of being downtown at all, then they start to notice the little gems it has to offer.

When I was a teenager in Green Bay, I went downtown all the time, parking in the ramps or Boston Store lot or taking the bus to Port Plaza, Bosse's, the Bay 3 movies, or Cafe Espresso. It was the place to be and that made it worth the extra effort to get there.

What do teens do there now? Do they even bother to check it out? I'm worried that their generation will grow up never knowing anything but Bay Park Square and Oneida St. They're being raised to ignore downtown and are totally unaware of its potential. And these are probably the kids who will be running the city someday. Scary thought... Green Bay better get cracking on that downtown right now.

Hopefully kids get out of GB and travel around to other cities where they can experience what a great downtown can be like. I think many younger peopel are starting to see that our sprawly suburban lifestyle is not only inefficient but also just plain boring.

The key is getting more people to believe that even GB's downtown is not beyond hope. I think that's one of the biggest problems, people have just plain given up on it, whether it has parking or not it doesn't matter.

That is one of the problems though Puant. People do leave this city and look around . Only they realize how much better some of these other downtowns/cities are and then they never return. Although Green Bay does lose a lot of its young talent due to lack of employment in certain fields, but people are exploring other places. We just need more of them to actually return after doing so.

Downtown is really a hassle when you think about people's habits. It's easy for people to hop in the car and see a huge parking lot and walk a hundred yards to Wal-Mart. It's not in people's realm of thinking to find a meter, walk a block and shop in a hole in the wall store where you will be the only customer. It's just outside of the majority of Green Bay's comfort zone.

In a medium sized city like Madison or St. Paul, downtown thrives because people are there for their jobs. That forced exposure gets people more comfortable with the idea of being downtown at all, then they start to notice the little gems it has to offer.

I know that what you just put in writing is exactly what is keeping Green Bay's downtown "down". Our leaders even tried to change downtown to be more like our suburban counterparts, and look how well that worked. Most peoples comfort level is way too low when faced with the unknown, such as finding a place to park, where you can't see the store.

When I was a teenager in Green Bay, I went downtown all the time, parking in the ramps or Boston Store lot or taking the bus to Port Plaza, Bosse's, the Bay 3 movies, or Cafe Espresso. It was the place to be and that made it worth the extra effort to get there.

What do teens do there now? Do they even bother to check it out? I'm worried that their generation will grow up never knowing anything but Bay Park Square and Oneida St. They're being raised to ignore downtown and are totally unaware of its potential. And these are probably the kids who will be running the city someday. Scary thought... Green Bay better get cracking on that downtown right now.

Well, from what I know, my sister in law grew up outside of the Metro (bus line) service area and had never rode public transportation until going to St. Norbert and meeting new friends with ties to Chicago land, and of course she now lives there (Lincoln Park Area) and rides her bus to her job downtown and where she sits now she can't really stand ever returning to Green Bay. (I do think as she matures to he mid-20s she will see how simplistic life in little GB really is) and I see more and more of my friends who moved away to a larger city after college whom now have a family and are returning to Green Bay. I know first hand that having children and having family available to watch them is a huge bonus.

I also know that some of the things I used to do, like ride the bus downtown, many parents find unacceptable or they live outside of the Metro service area. I am sure we could mention why that has happened, but I don't think I need to preach to the choir.

Sorry but I couldn't help myself...

And I know I hate that when all that is brought up here are the problems, so what is anyone's best bet of returning life to downtown?

More housing? I think so. - I would love to see some row houses built.

More Activities? the Children's museum will help anchor, but I think we need a place to watch movies, or a nifty old bookstore like a boarders, or simple one is bring back Wild Air. I am not really certain who is in charge of the mall now, but they used to have a place there, even if there lease is below market who cares, I know a ton of people who drive to Appleton to go to Wild Air there.

More dining? I am not sure, I read in the paper that Victoria's has closed.
I still think we need a burrito place and a fast food place, but we know that will be hard to come by.

What else do you think could help be a catalyst for a quick turn around of Downtown?

Well I continue to obsess over this stuff, for whatever reason.....
Although I'm no expert, here are a few thoughts on solutions to make the downtown vital once again. Some of this echoes what GBsurveyor and others said, but here goes....

1) Create (or rekindle) more awareness of the remaining (existing) assets. Maximize these. The river, the existing historic buildings and public spaces are some examples that need to be promoted. I think this could go a long ways in terms of being a "quick" solution to at least part of the problem.

2) Make it easier and more convenient to get around. Make the blocks smaller (like at the mall site) so there is more connections and on- street parking. Make transit easier and more convenient so more people use it. Maximize the use of the Titletown Trolley in the downtown. Make pedestrian facilities as high of a priority as auto facilities.

3) Make better land use decisions, use the land as "downtown" rather than a mess of parking lots and suburban-style buildings. Strip malls, parking lots, big box chain stores might work in the suburbs, but everyone needs to realize the same approach isn't applicable to the downtown. Encourage and entice smaller businesses to come back downtown and share things like parking, rather than expecting every small business to have their own exclusive parking lot.

4) Make sure each street has a variety of uses that keep people on it throughout the day and night. Mixed uses work well to keep people out and about at nearly all times during the day. Office workers in the day. Shoppers other times. Even the party-goers at night add to the streeet life. Anything that makes the street life active round-the-clock. This is extremely important. Nobody ever wants to be on a dead street that feels boring or unsafe.

5) More housing. This also ties into #4 above. High-end condos aren't the total answer. Make sure there is a variety of housing choices for all income levels. The R/C apartments and the row house ideas would be good for example. Even though housing is on the down-and-out, part of this relates to high transportation costs, and so in that sense creating more downtown housing, so people can walk to get everywhere they need to be, might still make for good timing to get some more downtown housing going.

6) anyone else have other suggestions?

Again I'm no expert here but during the course of my obssession with this stuff, I've been reading a lot of books on these matters and these are some of the things that seem obvious to us maybe but for whatever reason not to everyone with power to make change. I'm about halfway thru Jane Jacob's book, "Death & LIfe of Great American Cities" in which she makes some very keen observations on cities--things that work, things that don't work, and why. I think we're all on the same page here but maybe we also need to try educate more people on these things. And I think pointing out the problems can help understand the solution.

P.S. this is a great city to live when you have small kids. I know that first hand as well. Sure, other cities have exciting downtowns and glitzy skylines, but GB has some thigns to offer that they don't. Many of the younger kids who move away end up realizing this and coming back here, it seems.

When I hear people talk of downtown I often hear them complain about parking or nothing is down there. I am seeing the nightlife getting worse and worse. Most people that I know are heading to Appleton for this. I think we need to have an entertainment district. By having this district there will be a smaller area for the police to patrol and reduce crime outside of bars. The problem is the bars are so spread out. So that is my rant about downtown's nightlife.

I wonder how much parking meters bring in annually? If we could have free parking on the street always I believe more people would visit downtown. I am with everyone else on this forum that this is really no big deal to us park and walk. The mentality of this area is like others have said here, they would rather go to the mall or Walmart. I just wonder what downtown would be like if we had the Resch Center there. It would bring in more people downtown and possibly bring in more hotels and restaurants to the core of the city.

Having grown up in the Green Bay area back in the 60's and 70's it saddens me to see how much the city has lost. When I was a kid we'd take the bus from West De Pere to downtown and the streets always had a hustle and bustle to them. H.C. Pranges was magical, especially at Christmas time with the windows displaying animated Christmas themes that rivaled anything you'd see at a department store in Chicago.

Kapps, Chili Johns, Krolls, Sammy's Pizza all had downtown locations. We'd go see a double feature at the Bay or the Vic or the West Theaters. The bridges had a gritty coolness to them too, the Mason Street and Walnut Street bridges looked quite similar with there steel green frames and “hummed” against the car tires as you drove across the steel grid deck. When you looked north up Washington Street there was a giant clock on top of the Wisconsin Public Service building showing the current time. Another neat site was over on Broadway, the Fairmont Dairy building had a giant milk bottle on top of it. Oh, and Titletown Brewery wasn’t in that building, Chicago and Northwestern actually had passenger rail service running out of there. How did Green Bay miss out on Amtrak?

Although in hindsight, it was inevitable that many of the businesses with time would follow the residents out to the suburbs, there seems to me that some things should have stayed in the city's center. Many of the old historic structures were moved from their original locations on the near west side in what had been Fort Howard to the new Heritage Hill Park in Allouez. The Neville Public Museum and Kellogg Library left the "Civic Center" area across Jefferson Street from the County Courthouse to areas where they no longer had their neighboring synergy. UWGB was built, which was a great addition to the city. But, how much more awesome would it have been if they had built it near downtown, perhaps in the area of Webster and University Avenue.

Howdy All,
Having grown up in NE Wisconsin and being a graduate of UWGB, I think an aspect of development that's been ignored has been the branding of Green Bay by, of course, the Packers. (I reside in Seattle now, thank God.) I have faith in the development of the city, but I think this faith is rooted more in ideology than actuality, and here's why: When people visit Green Bay they expect to be bombarded with the Packer-related culture. In this sense, the Packers are both a blessing and a horrible plague for the city. Green Bay is a very small city, and people like Zima want it to remain this way; a town controlled by its team even though this team is in Ashwaubenon. When you take focus away from the "core" of the city, which is really the Packers--you are in essence stealing away everthing the "city" was built on. Let's face it, without the Packers, Green Bay is just a large Manitowoc or Sheboygan or Wausau. Just because Green Bay has an NFL team doesn't mean it's ready for big city development; the market does not exist in Brown County for any significant development because there isn't the population base. There are a handful of idealists who believe developments like Astor and Prestige are truly possible, but there is no market for them to be built upon. If this wasn't the case I would be sleeping in my Astor Unit instead of dreaming about its existence. I really want the downtown to have the thriving atmosphere Bay2Bay alluded to, but Green Bay will always be a car-culture town. I know other people have said it before, but I cringe at the thought that Lambeau Field, the Brown County Arena (and Resch), and UWGB to include the Weidner Center were all built away from the central city. Can you imagine how great downtown would be if we had even one of these Green Bay staples located downtown? Imagine Lambeau sitting right on the river next to the Resch Center, next to several respectable buildings--nothing huge, but at least something to build upon. I'm sad to say, Green Bay seems more about "what if" than "when." I think we have the Packers to thank for that; let's face it, they are what the city revolves around--Not a sermon, just my true feelings.

Howdy All,
Having grown up in NE Wisconsin and being a graduate of UWGB, I think an aspect of development that's been ignored has been the branding of Green Bay by, of course, the Packers. (I reside in Seattle now, thank God.) I have faith in the development of the city, but I think this faith is rooted more in ideology than actuality, and here's why: When people visit Green Bay they expect to be bombarded with the Packer-related culture. In this sense, the Packers are both a blessing and a horrible plague for the city. Green Bay is a very small city, and people like Zima want it to remain this way; a town controlled by its team even though this team is in Ashwaubenon. When you take focus away from the "core" of the city, which is really the Packers--you are in essence stealing away everthing the "city" was built on. Let's face it, without the Packers, Green Bay is just a large Manitowoc or Sheboygan or Wausau. Just because Green Bay has an NFL team doesn't mean it's ready for big city development; the market does not exist in Brown County for any significant development because there isn't the population base. There are a handful of idealists who believe developments like Astor and Prestige are truly possible, but there is no market for them to be built upon. If this wasn't the case I would be sleeping in my Astor Unit instead of dreaming about its existence. I really want the downtown to have the thriving atmosphere Bay2Bay alluded to, but Green Bay will always be a car-culture town. I know other people have said it before, but I cringe at the thought that Lambeau Field, the Brown County Arena (and Resch), and UWGB to include the Weidner Center were all built away from the central city. Can you imagine how great downtown would be if we had even one of these Green Bay staples located downtown? Imagine Lambeau sitting right on the river next to the Resch Center, next to several respectable buildings--nothing huge, but at least something to build upon. I'm sad to say, Green Bay seems more about "what if" than "when." I think we have the Packers to thank for that; let's face it, they are what the city revolves around--Not a sermon, just my true feelings.

I expected nothing less from someone who thinks Lambeau is in ashwaubenon.

I'm sorry, is that incorrect?

I'm sorry, is that incorrect?
Lambeau Field is in the City of Green Bay, but the Hutson Center and the adjacent outdoor team practice fields are in Ashwaubenon.

Mike

^^ Yes, the stadium and the block it's on are a little peninsula of Green Bay that crosses Lombardi Ave. into Ashwaubenon. Beyond that Fillmore, thanks for sharing your view. I don't agree with all of it, but certainly yours in not an uncommon opinion.

Has anyone heard anything about the condo's/apartments that will be going in River Center? Prices, floorplans, etc? I remember someone saying on here that they heard Vetter talk about getting a website up and running with all of that information on it, but I haven't seen anything yet. Danillo or Puant, you really seem to be in the know when it comes to downtown. Any info you can give us?

Tough Crowd. I certainly wasn't trying to ruffle anyone's feathers, just expressing my view.

hckystr42, I have not heard anything either. If I were to speculate as to why, and this would be pure speculation, I'd guess that they don't want to be adding X-number of condos onto the downtown market when they are trying to fill Astor Place.

For what its worth, a fun game to play is the "is this domain reserved and if so by whom?" game. So, if you look up loftsontheriver.com and astorplacecondos.com, you will see that they were both reserved by the same individual. Rivercenter.com is reserved by someone in Portugal (looks like a squatter), and the next logical choice based on the Astor Place domain, rivercentercondos.com, is unreserved and available for purchase. Soooo, if anyone is really, really, really bored you can play around with that to see if a names is reserved and when it was. This helps give insight into if they will be launching a site soon (doesn't look like it to me).

Tough Crowd. I certainly wasn't trying to ruffle anyone's feathers, just expressing my view.

Fillmore, your point was that the entertainment district, including Lambeau Field, is NOT downtown. You are 100% correct in this regard, even if by technicality Lambeau Field itself is barely within the city limits. I think some of us are so discouraged by the slow progress that we don't take criticism well.

We like to play the "If Only" game quite often. But all we can do is move forward and play the cards we've been dealt. UWGB is on the bay, Lambeau and Resch are in the "Ashwaubenon Area," and that's the way it is. One of the things we can hope for, however, is that as local businesses outgrow their existing buildings they will seriously consider (and have incentives to consider) moving downtown.

The city has the right idea to entice a new "creative class" to live and work downtown. A good book on the subject is The New Geography: How the Digital Revolution is Reshaping the American Landscape by Joel Kotkin. Kotkin points out that as we move toward a postindustrial economy featuring service and information-based industries, location and access to raw materials becomes less important. If people, companies, or industries can truly live anywhere in this new paradigm (and telecommuting aids this), where firms and workers locate becomes increasingly contingent on the unique attributes of any given location. Successful cities in the new economy will have aesthetic appeal and a pleasant quality of life. They will be crucial niches of arts, entertainment, and health care.

In other words, Green Bay would do well to sell its "peculiar attributes" -- the Packers, good quality of life with low cost of living, quick access to Door County and the Northwoods and their recreation opportunities, etc. And by creating a vibrant downtown Green Bay would set itself apart from most other places in the Midwest, even if other places could offer some of the other attributes Green Bay can (save for the Packers).

However, an obstacle to building a creative class downtown is the fact that those young professionals who would fill that class are likely to leave Green Bay for college and not come back (at least for a while).

Like some of you, I know people who are moving back to Green Bay to raise their families here. These people already experienced the urban lifestyle in other cities, but they come back to buy homes in the suburbs, so they don't fit the city center creative class. My brother-in-law just moved back last year from Minneapolis, and is in marketing -- a creative class profession -- but he lives in De Pere and commutes to Neenah.

I'm not entirely sure how to make Green Bay more enticing for that creative class in one easy step. It almost seems like a classic chicken versus egg situation. The urban environment must exist to attract the young professional, but no one will create that environment until the demand is there first. That's why it is so important to provide incentives to businesses to locate downtown. But then the naysayers complain about government becoming too involved and giving too much to those firms willing to take the risks.

It will take continued political will by our elected leadership and continued positive public relations to educate our blue collar citizenry to keep downtown Green Bay on track.

Excellent posts above. I think Fillmore is right on with most of his comments. A couple things though--I wonder, had Lambeau been built downtown, how many more buildings would have been razed for parking lots? Those parking lots would have sized for "Game Day" and thus would be mostly empty all but 8-10 days out of the year. That would not be so good.

No question I hate the fact that the UW was located far out of the city. But as G Teacher said, it is what it is so we just have to deal with it.

My thing about bringing this up so often here & in my blog is just that our "car culture" (as Fillmore put it) must try to learn from past mistakes. I don't think most people around here realize why our city doesn't really work very well....many people don't really seem to understand how the "neighboring synergy" (as Bay to Bay put it) was lost....Largely so that large parking lots could be built. Maybe there will be another AMS, who knows? Let's not make the same mistakes again, that's all.

Maybe it is too late. Maybe we're already too spread out and in that sense there is not enough of a population market density to make the big projects happen. Brown County as a whole has enough population, but not in the downtown....That's my only point of contention with Fillmore's post. But you know, I'm OK with the fact we won't get many "big city" projects. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm just as thrilled with projects like the Bull & Bear/Quincy's, the Meyer Theater renovation, ans smaller things like that.

Bigger isn't necessarily better.

G Teacher, great post.

I just want to start out by saying, I enjoy the general discussions about development and hearing the opinions of people who all come for the same Green Bay background. There isn't much development going on, but this is still one of the most active threads in the midwest.

I am chiming in as a member of the "creative class". I left Green Bay to attend UW-Milwaukee so I could experience some excitement in the big city. After graduating, I began looking for a graphic design job. I found over 250 potential ad agencies and graphic design firms in Minneapolis/St. Paul, about 100 in Milwaukee and 5 in Green Bay. That is just one of the problems Green Bay has competing with bigger cities for members of the creative class.

If people do decide they've had enough of the big city and want to return to Green Bay, that probably means they are no longer interested in urban living. They are looking for cheap housing, quiet neighborhoods, free parking and proximity to family and/or free babysitting. And we have to remember that the perception of what is "urban living" is all relative.

After living in Milwaukee and the Twin Cities, there really isn't anything Green Bay could do to give me the impression of being a big city. Building a few 20 story buildings downtown and a boardwalk along the river wouldn't change that. A city needs the intangibles, and those are tough to define. It's a feeling that few cities can have. Milwaukee will never be Chicago. St. Paul and Duluth will never be Minneapolis. Green Bay, Wausau and Madison will never be Milwaukee. Green Bay might be able to shoot for Madison though. :banana:

Green Bay sure is bigger than most in the area and it corners the market on "urban living" for anyone from the northwoods and the UP (even if there is a skyscraper in Escanaba)... but even if half of the UP moved to Green Bay, it would only add 50,000 yoopers. Not exactly the kind of numbers or style that make up a fancy, cosmopolitan city. Green Bay competes for people who could find so much more only a few hours further south or west.

That being said, I've met lots of people over the years and their perception of Green Bay varies from "Oh, so you must be a farmer?" to "Green Bay? That kind of a big city, isn't it?". I even had my freshman college roommate from Fond du Lac say "When I found out you were from Green Bay, I was hoping you weren't a gang member". I love it.

Thanks GT, I will certainly check that text out--just had to relay my thoughts.

Well, one of the constant thorns in downtown development, alderman Gary Kriecher, was voted OUT tonight:banana:. THing about Gary was, his arguments made absolutely no sense at all. If someone wants to be against something, fine, but do it for a reason, not just for spite. I will not miss this guy one single bit.

Thats great that Kriecher was voted out, but what about the person who replaced him? What is there stance on downtown development? We could just be trading one anti-downtown alderman for another.

Thats great that Kriecher was voted out, but what about the person who replaced him? What is there stance on downtown development? We could just be trading one anti-downtown alderman for another.

Amy Kocha will replace Kriescher....now if people in the city would just wake up and vote out Zima. :bash:

Name: Amy Kocha

Years in district: 17

Age: 53

Occupation: Attorney, Brown County Child Support Agency

Family: Raised as one of nine children, with parents and siblings still residing in Green Bay

Education: Bachelor of Music, St. Norbert College; law degree, Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul

Political experience: None

Community involvement: President of Brown County Civic Music, 2002-2007; mediator with Brown County Community Mediation Center, 1999-2000; organist and soloist, St. Patrick's Church, 30 years.

What are the top issues facing your district/community, and what would you do about them?

Based on my discussion with voters in my district, the main issues include downtown development, wise use of our tax dollars and the need for people to feel safe in their neighborhoods. Our community needs positive leadership from elected officials who will set the example for how we as a society should treat one another. Solving problems requires being able to really understand the issues as well as the consequences of the decisions we make. Good communication and better analysis of city commitments and contracts will help insure good decision-making and the best use of our tax dollars.

^^

In that bio, it sounds like she is stepping around the issue. I guess we will see with her first couple votes!

In general, I just don't buy into the idea that Green Bay lacks either the population in general, or the right kinds of population to have a successful downtown. Nor do I believe that if only UWGB or the Resch or the Weidner were downtown then all or most of our problems would be solved. What Green Bay lacks is a downtown that's a place that people want to be, a quality of space that's attractive to people. Having a parking lot where there should be a plaza (Baylake lot) doesn't help, the boardwalk will help.

If you compare the downtown today to where it was 10 years ago, there's been significant progress. It's been incremental and as such not everyone sees it, but it's been real. There are more people living downtown, there's a convention center down there bringing people in, there's a "new" Meyer Theatre, etc. Is the place going to be Chicago? No, and I don't think we'd want it to be. What we need to work for is to make it a vibrant Green Bay place. That's can't be measured in a arbitrary number of stories in certain buildings, it's a street life thing. I see nothing holding us beck from creating the street life we want except ourselves.

As for Kreisher, I don't think he's a bad guy or anything, but Puant hit it right on the head, he never seemed to have a good reason for much. It was almost bizarre at times. Hopefully we'll still have a downtown support on the council, and more time spent making things better across the city and less time spent arguing over the constitutionality of religious displays!

Here are two of three comments on the Press-Gazette's website following the Kocha-Kriescher article:

hmm Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:39 am
If it's the same Amy I went to school with she will take care of the people first not that so called downtown thats been dead for years!!!

First Job Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:50 am
I just hope that Kocha plans on worrying more about the District 5 than the downtown area. District 5 is now a Slum area and needs to be cleaned up.

Here are two of three comments on the Press-Gazette's website following the Kocha-Kriescher article:

I think that I might agree with the comment that her district may need some work of its own. I believe that this area might catch some pin action as far as improvements and increased property valuation when any downtown development and expansion eventally takes off, however I can see that in the short term this area would also be exposed to the problematic conditions that occur when neighborhoods de-stabilize. The city is working hard on keeping the neighborhood in shape, howerver the people need to step up and be good neighbors. One thing that I know cannot hurt is that Kocha has a clean slate to work with and the some of the biggest downtown prospects are still lurking out there (aka the mall site)

Here is that district: Link (http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/forms/sup_dist5.pdf)

You know how some of these NeoNut groups pick up on certain topics to constantly hate on? Well it seems downtown has become one of those filthy dirty words in these circles, even moreso than just a few years ago.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think downtown is still pretty special (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2008/02/what-makes-downtown-special.html) despite the loss of significant retail (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2008/03/gauging-downtowns-vitality.html).

Danillo, Had the university been downtown, we'd still have problems, sure, but I think universities and the students, activity, culture, economics, facilities, and everything else that goes into them woudl have been such a huge injection of life and vitality to the downtown that we're so sorely lacking. So many of the best & most vibrant downtowns are so largely in part because they contain universities in them.

Not to beat this to death, but it's such shame we missed that opportunity. To add a new wrinkle to this discussion--because someone else recently proposed a downtown site for the university---I thought I'd propose my idea: I think the C. Reiss coal pile site (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=44.506859~-88.021517&style=h&lvl=16&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15773888&encType=1), which is like 70+ acres, could have been the site of the university. The coal piles could have been moved to the mouth of the river like the John Nolen plan (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2007/10/john-nolens-1921-plan-for-green-bay.html) proposed in the 1920's and what has been proposed again in more recent years. Had they just moved those coal piles back in the 1960's when the university was getting started, the university could have been placed right there. UWGB would then anchor the south end of Broadway right along the riverfront at the west end of the Mason St bridge. It would have been such a huge improvement. Probalby would have helped clean up and inject so much of that area. Plus the students might have been less bored there. Not that there's anything wrong with nature hikes in the arboretum, but how many students actually do that often? would the students rather be in a more convenient lcoation for them where they don't have to drive everywhere? .

I think siting UW-GB where they did, supposedly in part to make it a "different" type of campus in teh sense that it is "in nature", kind of backfired on them, because they had to pave over so many acres of it to put in the parking lots because everyone has to drive there. Again, representative of our extreme car culture here in Green Bay, which I am unfortunatly part of.

Isn't much development going on downtown? Double, I challenge you to walk East across the the Walnut Street Bridge and say that... Virtually everything you see was built or significantly altered since 2003. I think that's pretty remarkable, and the best of it is yet to come.

From my little vantage point in downtown Green Bay, it's clear to me that 'creative class' types and other educated professionals have been moving to Green Bay steadily for the past five to ten years. I am constantly meeting people who have recently moved to the area from elsewhere. And for the most part, they seem to have a far more positive attitude about Green Bay than many people from Green Bay, including some who frequent this board.

We have plenty of people, we just haven't yet given them reason to spend much time in downtown Green Bay. But they'd like to...

Some large universities have parts of their campuses at a distance, for whatever reason. I am thinking of U of M (twin cities). U of M has the east and west bank in Minneapolis, but then also has a St. Paul campus that you can get to by car or bus (not sure what all is contained there, but I had a friend who had some courses there when she was a freshman). A random idea, but it made me think, could UWGB have some sort of downtown component or presence..where maybe a few courses or learning takes place in a downtown setting? Does UWGB have any downtown presence right now at all? Not sure if there is a rationale for doing so, but just a thought.

Amy Kocha will replace Kriescher....now if people in the city would just wake up and vote out Zima. :bash:
The only way Guy does not get re elected is if he does not run. I like the idea he is going after whoever hoodwinked the tax payers into that Saks deal. I asked him if there was anything we could do to stop the wasteful spending of $12,000,000 for the boardwalk since Vetter has not come through on his end of the agreement. Sadly there is not and we have to allow this waste to go through. Guy may be a thorn, but if this city had a few more like him, and not just those who rubber stamp every idea that the mayor keeps pushing at us. Maybe if more would have stood up tp the mayor and said giving every project to one man was wrong things would be different downtown today. But this mayor has shown time and tie again his only concern is what his legacy is going to be when he is voted out of office and not what is always in the best interest of the city and the hard working blue collar people he is shoving aside.

From my little vantage point in downtown Green Bay, it's clear to me that 'creative class' types and other educated professionals have been moving to Green Bay steadily for the past five to ten years... We have plenty of people, we just haven't yet given them reason to spend much time in downtown Green Bay. But they'd like to...

I agree, this is why high-quality public spaces like the boardwalk are so important. They're not a panacea, but they are the most critical lacking piece.

Does UWGB have any downtown presence right now at all? Not sure if there is a rationale for doing so, but just a thought.

There used to be a "Downtown Learning Center" in the mall, but when the mall closed so did that. I am not aware of any plans to replace that. Ideally, I'd like to see a center with a few classrooms, some events space, and a bit of student housing, though that would be an ambitious project.

The only way Guy does not get re elected is if he does not run. I like the idea he is going after whoever hoodwinked the tax payers into that Saks deal. I asked him if there was anything we could do to stop the wasteful spending of $12,000,000 for the boardwalk since Vetter has not come through on his end of the agreement. Sadly there is not and we have to allow this waste to go through. Guy may be a thorn, but if this city had a few more like him, and not just those who rubber stamp every idea that the mayor keeps pushing at us. Maybe if more would have stood up tp the mayor and said giving every project to one man was wrong things would be different downtown today. But this mayor has shown time and tie again his only concern is what his legacy is going to be when he is voted out of office and not what is always in the best interest of the city and the hard working blue collar people he is shoving aside.

Oh boy. First, you are right that Guy isn't going to lose an election anytime soon. Also, I think there is a fair bit of utility having someone like him on the council. I think he goes too far too often, and I wouldn't want him making too much policy, but unlike Kreischer, Zima can usually come up with a rational reason for what he's saying, and that's good for debate.

Now, about why you're wrong about the boardwalk (again). The city isn't just spending $12 million, and you know that (or should know that by now). Several million is coming from the state and the feds. Several million more is to come from private donors (such as ShopKo, who has already donated). The remainder is to come from TIF tied to downtown projects that are relying on the boardwalk for their increase valuation. By the terms of the approval of the plan that was passed by the city council, no general levee money is to go to the boardwalk (it was alderman Vander Leest who added the amendment to the proposal explicitly stating this). As such, to simply call this "wasteful spending of $12,000,000" is at the very least highly misleading.

zima
The saks deal sucks, but you do realize it was made by another administration and that zima was in office when the council passed it right? It does need to be investigated though, with the "omitted details" and all.

Lets put it this way, what "has" Zima done for his constituents? His one dissenting vote to everything doesn't affect the outcome of those issues. He would be the guy who would vote against adding a neighborhood police patrol to his own district because it would cost money.

AND GET OVER THE RIVERWALK DUDE. ITS NOT YOUR MONEY THEY ARE SPENDING ANYWAYS.

Collaborative public/private financing will support the project. State and federal dollars, along with Tax Increment Financing funds, will provide as much as 70 percent of the total amount with financial gifts from the community making up the rest.

I'll read it for you. Nothing will come out of your pocket to pay for it. If you don't want to make a gift to the citydeck, that's your own decision.

Edit: bah always a day late, Danillo beat me on the citydeck financing

AND GET OVER THE RIVERWALK DUDE. ITS NOT YOUR MONEY THEY ARE SPENDING ANYWAYS.

Nothing will come out of your pocket to pay for it.

Those are patently false statements. Where do you think the State and Federal funds come from in the first place? That is "OUR MONEY". I pay State and Federal taxes just as much as I pay local taxes, and I suspect most of us here do as well. (of course the private donation component of the funding does not come out of our pockets)

I'm in no way saying that's a reason the riverwalk shouldn't be built. I think it will probably be a good thing for the City. But please don't make it sound like it isn't costing us anything. It is.

It's "City Deck." I hated the name when I first heard it, but it's slowly growing on me. Boardwalk, or RiverWalk sounds like a place you walk through, City Deck is a place where you linger. I recently saw some plans for it and it's going to be pretty unusual. It's not going to be a standard boardwalk like the one in Sheboygan, Coney Island, or Santa Cruz. It's going to be a very designed space with various levels, lounging furniture built in, fountains, recreation, boat slips, a stage, etc. It's exactly what Green Bay's been missing my entire life, a central public space. It creates a lot of possibilities that haven't existed, that's what makes it exciting to me.

Those are patently false statements. Where do you think the State and Federal funds come from in the first place? That is "OUR MONEY". I pay State and Federal taxes just as much as I pay local taxes, and I suspect most of us here do as well. (of course the private donation component of the funding does not come out of our pockets)

I'm in no way saying that's a reason the riverwalk shouldn't be built. I think it will probably be a good thing for the City. But please don't make it sound like it isn't costing us anything. It is.

Ok, so the next sprawl related project built in New Berlin using state funds will be highly opposed by me based on that same premise. :bash:

Don't take things out of context. Clearly the alderman in question only has influence over local taxes, not state ones. If the state raised taxes just to support the city deck, sure you then have a point. Let me know when that happens.

^^ I think Kramerica said he supports the boardwalk. He was just correcting the statement that "ITS NOT YOUR MONEY THEY ARE SPENDING ANYWAYS... Nothing will come out of your pocket to pay for it," which is in fact not true. It is true that:

A) Funding comes from state/federal funds, donations, and TIF (not in that order)
B) No local, general levee taxes will go to it
C) The state economic development funds, if not spent here, would almost certainly have been spent somewhere, so it's not as though this is causing a tax increase
D) Guy Zima doesn't control state taxes

However, while those things are true, it is not true that none of the money spend is his money, because some of it is. If we are going to hold others to a standard of not exaggerating the truth or making false statements about how this will be paid for, then we need to do our best to hold ourselves to the same standard.

Ok, so the next sprawl related project built in New Berlin using state funds will be highly opposed by me based on that same premise. :bash:

I did not say I highly oppose the Green Bay City Deck. In fact, I said that the project was probably worthwhile.

Don't take things out of context. Clearly the alderman in question only has influence over local taxes, not state ones. If the state raised taxes just to support the city deck, sure you then have a point. Let me know when that happens.

What was taken out of context? Your quote of "Nothing will come out of your pocket to pay for it" came right after a quote about the Federal and State funds being used. And that's what I'm discussing.

The state doesn't have to raise taxes for "our money" to be used. The current tax level allows them to spend "our money" on many different things, the City Deck being one of them.

Danillo is right that in practice, if this money wasn't used on City Deck then it would have been used on some other development. But that doesn't change the fact that it is "our money" being used on City Deck.

The mayor likes little pet projects that he can use for election time, nothing to strenuous but simple. I have one for ya Mr Mayor, RECYCLING! Now there is something you can hang the old hat on! This past weekend as you may have noticed it was quite nice weather wise, so I thought good time to clean the garage and get rid of some the the winter paper that was collected. So I loaded up the van and headed off to the 940 Prairie Ave, well look what I found Mr Mayor, maybe you could look into how we can solve this problem once you help Vetters fill his condo.

http://newffl.net/pic/gar5.jpg

http://newffl.net/pic/gar2.jpg

Hi all!

I'm just a senior in high school who reads this forum regularly. I am very excited and intrigued by the projects downtown, and I have a couple questions which I was wondering if anyone could answer.

First: When exactly will the mall proposal (I think it is T. Wall?) go before the city board? And has anyone heard of what it might include?

Second: Has a final render been released on the section of River Center which is being constructed presently? Because it seems to me that the exterior will be completed in a matter of months, and there is still no website, or advertising. I know that someone made the comment that this was perhaps to avoid detracting from prospective buyers of Astor Place condos.

Third: Is there a formal sign for Quincy's, the restaurant on the second floor of the Belling Building? I have peeked inside there, and I have seen the signs for the "Bear and Bull" (or Bull and Bear I can't remember), and the "Daily Buzz," but I have not seen a sign for "Quincy's," and it makes me think that a place like that needs to be advertised.

Fourth: Has anyone heard anything more about the City Deck, and the retail stores which will go along with it?

Thank you in advance. And I am sorry if I have repeated questions which have been frequently asked. Thanks again for any answers anyone might have.

Hi all!

I'm just a senior in high school who reads this forum regularly. I am very excited and intrigued by the projects downtown, and I have a couple questions which I was wondering if anyone could answer.

First: When exactly will the mall proposal (I think it is T. Wall?) go before the city board? And has anyone heard of what it might include?

Second: Has a final render been released on the section of River Center which is being constructed presently? Because it seems to me that the exterior will be completed in a matter of months, and there is still no website, or advertising. I know that someone made the comment that this was perhaps to avoid detracting from prospective buyers of Astor Place condos.

Third: Is there a formal sign for Quincy's, the restaurant on the second floor of the Belling Building? I have peeked inside there, and I have seen the signs for the "Bear and Bull" (or Bull and Bear I can't remember), and the "Daily Buzz," but I have not seen a sign for "Quincy's," and it makes me think that a place like that needs to be advertised.

Fourth: Has anyone heard anything more about the City Deck, and the retail stores which will go along with it?

Thank you in advance. And I am sorry if I have repeated questions which have been frequently asked. Thanks again for any answers anyone might have.

Welcome gbbear,

You sure ask a lot of questions, And as far as I can recall, no (to anything).
I think that we are all in the same boat, waiting for info. I think that this city might have the hardest time shareing anything that might be important, in the public eye. Take for example the City Deck, there is a website, but it hasn't been updated for months, where are we with progress??? All I know is that I have not seen the construction bids go out, (unless it was in a closed door meeting).

The hottest thing happening is over at the Larson Canning complex, there is actuall progress taking place over there, the rfp for the redevelopment was due March 24, hopefully someone had some interest in that project and we will see further construction.

As far as the mall goes, I know we all want something to happen, but c'mon. There is a ton of property there and it will take a long time to redevelop, all I am hopeing for is that T-wall determines that it would be feasable to to work out a developers agreement and possible starts some demo, (even though the one for Astor place has been in place for some time with all of the missed deadlines and lack of progress).
Not to turn political, but the last time there was a democrat in the White House the US economy was smoking hot and come november I guess we will see what happens...

The mayor likes little pet projects that he can use for election time, nothing to strenuous but simple. I have one for ya Mr Mayor, RECYCLING! Now there is something you can hang the old hat on! This past weekend as you may have noticed it was quite nice weather wise, so I thought good time to clean the garage and get rid of some the the winter paper that was collected. So I loaded up the van and headed off to the 940 Prairie Ave, well look what I found Mr Mayor, maybe you could look into how we can solve this problem once you help Vetters fill his condo.

http://newffl.net/pic/gar5.jpg

http://newffl.net/pic/gar2.jpg

GBM, you do know that we have curbside pickup every two weeks for paper, you shouldn't store all that paper in your garage itis a fire hazard, and BTW is that your old tire? It doesn't look like a paper product. Come on...

GBM, you do know that we have curbside pickup every two weeks for paper, you shouldn't store all that paper in your garage itis a fire hazard, and BTW is that your old tire? It doesn't look like a paper product. Come on...Sure if you are a single white collar yogurt eater every two weeks is great, but for real blue collar families one blue bin for paper/plastic/glass, properly separated just does not fly. But I guess da mayor is to busy with his CARPwalk to worry about real problems. I could see how a company that prides itself on being green would look upon a city that allows this to happen as a great place to relocate.

Welcome GBBear!

First: When exactly will the mall proposal (I think it is T. Wall?) go before the city board? And has anyone heard of what it might include?

Good question. I would imagine we'll see something this spring/summer. From what I understand, the project will return the street grid through the site, and have essentially three components, each of fairly substantial size. I think it'll be office and retail. From what I hear T. Wall is very organized and professional with solid financial backing.

Second: Has a final render been released on the section of River Center which is being constructed presently? Because it seems to me that the exterior will be completed in a matter of months, and there is still no website, or advertising. I know that someone made the comment that this was perhaps to avoid detracting from prospective buyers of Astor Place condos.

That was me who speculated that the lack of marketing was an attempt to concentrate efforts on Astor Place, but it's just speculation. As for River Center, here are a few renderings (as an aside, they are starting to do the brick-work on the rental portion):

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/rc-1.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/rc-2.jpg

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/rc-3.jpg

Third: Is there a formal sign for Quincy's, the restaurant on the second floor of the Belling Building?

Good question. I'm not sure where they'd put a sign though, while still fitting into the historic character of the building. I do think at one point Steve from the Bellin Building mentioned the possibility of returning the awnings to the Washington Street side, which certainly has historical precedent, so that may be a possibility at some point.

Fourth: Has anyone heard anything more about the City Deck, and the retail stores which will go along with it?

I believe construction will start this spring/summer, and be broken up into phases (http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/boardwalk/timeline.html) that will come online as riverfront project start and become able to contribute TIF to the project. As for the retail, that is dependent on the buildings that will house the retail. So, the first to come along will be the River Center retail, which will include a restaurant run by the people who run The Bar, as well as an expanded Kavarna.

It looks like there might be some new life for site 4, if I am reading this correct NW corner of Washington and Walnut. Not sure on the E. Walnut redevelopmnet plan and I think a KI readerboard sign would be great.

Any insight here?

AGENDA

REDEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY OF THE CITY OF GREEN BAY


NEW BUSINESS:


1. Review and possible action on cost sharing for construction of a readerboard sign for the KI Convention Center.

Recommendation: To be presented at meeting.

2. Request of Direct Development for a planning option for the northwest corner of Walnut and Washington Streets.

Recommendation: To be presented at meeting.

3. Review and action on E. Walnut Street Redevelopment Plan.

Recommendation: Approve Redevelopment Plan.

4. Discussion and possible action on Younkers litigation.

The Authority may convene in closed session pursuant to Sections 19.85(1)(g), Wis. Stats., to confer with legal council with respect to litigation in which it is or is likely to become involved. The Authority may thereafter reconvene in open session pursuant to Section 19.85(2), Wis. Stats., to report the results of the closed session and consider the balance of the agenda.

Hey GBBear,
As a young person just about to get out into the world, how anxious are you to get the hell out of Green Bay? I'd suggest you go to college or get a job or whatever somewhere else for a while while you're young. Experience that and then hopfully you'll move back to Green Bay with your new perspective on life so you can help make this city better. Well maybe you don't have to but I'm glad I did...I went to school and lived in some cool cities like Sydney and Madison and yeah even Stevens Point had a better downtown than GB's. But now I'm happy to be here in GB raising my small kids while holding out hope that when they grow up I can stay here and have a cool downtown.

We just got back from a trip to Chicago, I guess so I can get my urban fix and have some fun with the family. Anyway as I was there looking around at everything from the incredibly vibrant street life on the sidewalks and on up to the mix of cool old buildings and on even higher to the skyline of glamorous new condo and office towers that have gone up recently, I got to thinking about little old stuck-in-the-mud Green Bay. Obviously there is hardly any comparison but that didn't stop me so I whipped up a little blog article and some scale-model 3D renders also to show some comparison. Here it is (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2008/04/back-from-chicago.html) if you're interested, you can scroll down past the wordy stuff if you want to get right to the images.

AND GET OVER THE RIVERWALK DUDE. ITS NOT YOUR MONEY THEY ARE SPENDING ANYWAYS.Dude, if I want to voice my displeasure with the the downtown City Deck, I can, in case you have missed it this America, a country known for freedom of speech. Also Dude, it is MY tax dollars involved in the City Deck, you need to learn that there is no money tree, money just does not magically appear for projects, REAL people pay for them one way or another.

^^Dude, we can't just abandon the downtown, as much as some people might want to. It isn't quite hopeless. This city deck thing could really help activate one of the downtown's best asset, the waterfront, which in turn could bring in more new private investments to the city.

Sometimes you need to invest and spend some money in order to make some money. We've been over this and over this.

The downtown investments the city deck is helping to generate are being built on small footprints of land where there are existing facilities (roads, utilities, etc). Also they tend to bring in a much higher tax base than a low-density sprawl development which require even more public money for brand new roads and other infrastructure to even start up. I think the average cost for a new urban 2-lane road costs upwards of $4 million per mile to build, maybe even more. A single interchange on a freeway can cost hudreds of millions of dollars. Doesn't the boardwalk pale in comparison when you look big picture? Why is it OK to spend so many billions in public money for pavement for cars drive on, but not OK to spend a little bit of TIF and donation money on a facility that people walk on? They both can help stimulate economic growth, only I'd argue that downtown growth costs our soceity less in the big picture than sprawl growth. Let's move on I'm tired of talking about it. It's over and done with. Stay away from it if you hate it that much.

Puant, i'd have to agree.....i'm currently living in stevens point and the downtown is great...nothing fancy...nothing over the top...but people love to be down there....which is a great format for green bay to follow....i'd also agree that the citydeck is a great idea as far as bringing people to downtown...i believe its gonna be the businesses that are going to keep them down there....thats what its important for the right kinds of businesses to be there....if there were only someway UWGB could be located downtown haha jk.....all we need are a couple of big businesses to relocate there offices down there and all of a sudden people arent so afraid to go down there anymore...it'll be interesting to see what t.wall has in store for the old mall site

I am all for the revival of downtown and what has happen so far has been a nice start. I am sure city deck will be a nice little addition to the area and I am sure that when I am riding my bike downtown I will even stop and enjoy it. Sorry I just don't get all warm and fuzzy about the project like some of you. Green Bay will always be Green Bay, known for the Packers, it's small town values and lack of tall buildings. We will always be small town USA.You will never see a major corporation or business move their HQ's here or expand major operations here.

I am all for the revival of downtown and what has happen so far has been a nice start. I am sure city deck will be a nice little addition to the area and I am sure that when I am riding my bike downtown I will even stop and enjoy it. Sorry I just don't get all warm and fuzzy about the project like some of you. Green Bay will always be Green Bay, known for the Packers, it's small town values and lack of tall buildings. We will always be small town USA.You will never see a major corporation or business move their HQ's here or expand major operations here.

Well, I think the CityDeck will mean more to the downtown than being "a nice little addition," but fair enough, not everyone's going to be as excited about it as I am.

I agree that we will be perceived as "small town USA." That's fine with me, but I also don't think we should let how others perceive us determine how we should develop our city (I'm not saying that you're saying that). We can have tall buildings (maybe...one day...) and a vibrant, urban, city center. And realistically, I don't think we should be pinning our hopes on luring a major HQ to the city, but there are local and regional employers that grow up right here, so a focus on promoting entrepreneurship and growth of existing business can help create good job growth and downtown tenants.

Any news on the Site 4 Development from yesterday's RDA Meeting. The article in the paper didn't mention it...

An excellent article on downtown.

Our own Danillo is quoted in here. Great job, Dan. I wish more people could read this. Too bad this sort of article doesn't make it into the newspaper or something.

http://zegapi.com/view/?book_name=IOBApr08

flip to pages 38-41 by clicking on the lower right corner of the 'page'. To zoom in to read easier, click right on the page (and again to zoom back out).

It included a render of River Center that I had never seen before: THis is facing south

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/RiverCenterrenderingApril2008.jpg

I also enjoyed the article on a new downtown business Frozen Code Base.

I saw the T-wall renderings for the mall site, fantastic art-deco style buildings. 2 eight-story towers and one six-story tower, connected by sky walks on the second level. Mall demo planned for this summer, with a 9 month demo time table, with construction i soon after.

^^:banana: Holy Crap! WHere did you see this, and can we see it somewhere? I assume you had an "in" becase you're thinking of locating your business somwhere down here? It's always frustrating to me that some of this stuff is kept behind closed doors

pgrimmer-

Thanks for the info on the mall site. How much of the current site does the new development take up?

Also Puant, I too enjoyed that article on Frozen Codebase. Who knows, maybe someday they will be the next big thing and it will be right downtown. Wait, if they began a multi million dollar company they'd probably just move out to the suburbs.

Anyways I was reading an article about shows coming to the Resch Center and I was just wondering. Back when the Resch was built was there any rhyme or reason to were they put it? Did the city fight at all to get it closer to downtown? I was just curious and if anyone could answer that I would appreciate it.

pgrimmer-

Thanks for the info on the mall site. How much of the current site does the new development take up?

Also Puant, I too enjoyed that article on Frozen Codebase. Who knows, maybe someday they will be the next big thing and it will be right downtown. Wait, if they began a multi million dollar company they'd probably just move out to the suburbs.

Anyways I was reading an article about shows coming to the Resch Center and I was just wondering. Back when the Resch was built was there any rhyme or reason to were they put it? Did the city fight at all to get it closer to downtown? I was just curious and if anyone could answer that I would appreciate it.

I know for a fact that Green Bay tried to encourage the location of the new arena downtown and had a schematic drawing of the site and parking etc on the east side near the Bodart area, south of Main. Ultimately, and others can correct me if I am wrong, it was funded by hotel room tax and Ashwaubenon indicated they would pull their room tax if it wasn't built in Ashwaubenon. Plus, I guess to utilize Lambeau parking and the existing other facilities was a draw as well.

Other updates. Cool deal about T-Wall. Good to have someone with a proven track record of commercial/office developments leading the charge, yet at the same time buying into what Green Bay staff want with regards to the look of downtown. Can't wait to see it.

Answered my own ? about Site 4.

From RDA:

Request of Direct Development for a planning option for the northwest corner of Walnut and Washington Streets.

R. Strong indicated this item should be held with the possibility of a special meeting later in the month. He should be contacted if there are any concerns with the draft planning option that was provided.

· A special meeting may be needed for the Site 4 planning option as well as Prestige Park.

· A. Swanson and R. Strong provided an update on the Astor Place and River Center projects, the Cherry Street Ramp retail space, and the mall redevelopment.

Besides T-Wall wonder what the updates were about. More of the same more than likely. Ground breaking anticipated for this year. What year is "this" year???

Interesting about Prestige too. Wonder if that is for the Towers or the TIF they had requested to develop around the Tundra... Time will tell I guess.

I saw the T-wall renderings for the mall site, fantastic art-deco style buildings. 2 eight-story towers and one six-story tower, connected by sky walks on the second level. Mall demo planned for this summer, with a 9 month demo time table, with construction i soon after.

Awesome! I love Art Deco, and hopefully this is good art deco, and not cheap, knock-off art deco. I was heartened by the library/mixed-use proposal from T. Wall in the Madison thread. I thought that was some very innovative thinking, and an excellent idea for a public/private partnership that would benefit all sides. Not that the Mall site will have a public amenity like a library, but it did make me feel good about T. Wall's ability to come up with creative, urban solutions.

Also Puant, I too enjoyed that article on Frozen Codebase. Who knows, maybe someday they will be the next big thing and it will be right downtown. Wait, if they began a multi million dollar company they'd probably just move out to the suburbs.

I'm thinking you were somewhat tongue-in-cheek with that statement, but in seriousness, I think the reality is just the opposite. The type of employees that Frozen Codebase are attracting (young, creative, highly skilled professionals) are the core group that is looking for a vibrant downtown when they are choosing where to locate. Frozen Codebase's choice to locate in the On Broadway district is a reflection of that, and should they over time outgrow their current location, I'd bet they would stay downtown. At the same time, improving the downtown and making it a more vibrant place will help companies like Frozen Codebase attract and retain the workers they need.

From RDA:
Request of Direct Development for a planning option for the northwest corner of Walnut and Washington Streets.

R. Strong indicated this item should be held with the possibility of a special meeting later in the month. He should be contacted if there are any concerns with the draft planning option that was provided.


Here's the link to Direct Development for those that may be interested. http://www.directdevelopmentinc.com/new_development.html They have redone some of the buildings on Broadway across the river, and I have seen first hand the development in Grafton listed on their page which in person is beautifully done! If we could have something like the Grafton plan but a little taller I would be more than happy at site 4 vs. a 20 story building. I think the taller buildings should be reserved more for the core of the downtown anyway so that height differentials would occur enabling better viewing of the river from all locations.

I saw something over on the Madison thread--this is a recent proposal (http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/local/280832) by T. Wall for a downtown Madison project. It seems pretty cool.

I am looking forward to seeing the upcoming proposals and drawings.

Kind of off topic, but some insider information. A local automotive design group in Green Bay will be on tv...Genaddi will have their own tv show from a popular cable channel (name I am withholding until it is announced officially). You all have heard of American Chopper, kinda similiar to this but working with cars...million dollar cars. I know the owner was working on a few Lambo's for Kings or royalty in the Middle East. Have you seen an orange Lambo around town lately? http://www.genaddi.com

Plans for mall site will be out soon, t-wall did an outstanding job with the design. From what I saw, this will be the signature development of the downtown Green Bay. The first building is scheduled to open in January 2010.

^^pgrimmer,
You got me wondering...hope you don't mind sharing what you can recall:

*In the T. Wall plan, was the entire mall site slated for development?

*Were there any smaller parcels left open for other developers?

*Was the JC Penney building included?

Not to throw too much pessimism at this, but we already have several other proposed medium-large projects (such as the Grand Union) on the table. How does T. Wall expect to build these things when the other projects are creeping along at a snail's pace? As much as I'd like to see the whole mall area redeveloped and vibrant and full of people ASAP, I wonder if developing the whole thing at once is really going to work.... even if it looks great on paper, even I don't think it's viable or realistic, unless it's somehow "phased in" and done more organically, with different developers and investors, and with more diversity.

P.S.
Titetown, thans for the info on the TV show. WIll they bring any visibility to the community or will Genaddi be cast as a company in "Anywhere USA"? American Choppers in clearly in Orange County CA, they do bring the community to the show at times.

Site 4
Holding out hope I guess.

Resch Center siting
I had heard that Ashwaub & GB made some sort of agreement where Green Bay would get the KI Convention Center and Ashw would get the Resch. Green Bay "settled" for the convention center. You know, I'm actually OK with the Resch being where it is. It actually ties in with Lambeau quite well. Now, had Lambeau been put downtown back in 1958, then it woudl be a totally different story, of course.

Thanks to all of you who make this a lively and interesting forum!

Does anybody frequent the Emporis site? Green Bay's profile page is lacking some nice photography of the downtown buildings.

http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/?id=greenbay-wi-usa

http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/bu/?id=100019

I like the search feature, where you can find these same stats about other similar-sized cities. And I just need to complain again about Rochester, MN (96,975 in city and 181,082 in metro), tallest buildings are 29, 21, 20, 20, 19 and 14 floors.

Does anybody frequent the Emporis site? Green Bay's profile page is lacking some nice photography of the downtown buildings.

http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/?id=greenbay-wi-usa

http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/bu/?id=100019

I like the search feature, where you can find these same stats about other similar-sized cities. And I just need to complain again about Rochester, MN (96,975 in city and 181,082 in metro), tallest buildings are 29, 21, 20, 20, 19 and 14 floors.

But most of those towers are associated with the Mayo Clinic something of which Green Bay doesn't have to that degree of notoriaty.

Not to throw too much pessimism at this, but we already have several other proposed medium-large projects (such as the Grand Union) on the table. How does T. Wall expect to build these things when the other projects are creeping along at a snail's pace?

Hmmm, I thought I posted earlier, but I don't see it. Must have hit a wrong button. Anyway, I don't know as much as pgrimmer, but I'll add in the impressions that I've been led to believe:


The Mall will be redeveloped in three phases.
The Penny's building hasn't ever been part of this.
T. Wall has this special stuff. It's like a magical potion that allows him to make projects happen when other developers struggle by comparison. This stuff is something that I like to call: money. Now, not that T. Wall is going to throw a bunch of cash around, he didn't develop what he has by doing that. But, when he (they) determine a project is a good idea and there's a market for it, I'm under the impression that he can make it happen much more capably than the developers of projects like the Grand Union (again, his track record seems to back this up).
It's a competitive world, and one can wonder if the Grand Union and the mall site can both happen (I'd like to hope so). But I don't see the Grand Union slowing the mall site because the Grand Union hasn't happened yet. If the two were competing for tenants (I have no ideas if they are or not in a direct sense), T. Wall stands a very good chance of winning (see the previous item).
Perhaps it's time to bring in some new blood and new ideas for the Grand Union site.

Hmmm, I thought I posted earlier, but I don't see it. Must have hit a wrong button. Anyway, I don't know as much as pgrimmer, but I'll add in the impressions that I've been led to believe:


The Mall will be redeveloped in three phases.
The Penny's building hasn't ever been part of this.
T. Wall has this special stuff. It's like a magical potion that allows him to make projects happen when other developers struggle by comparison. This stuff is something that I like to call: money. Now, not that T. Wall is going to throw a bunch of cash around, he didn't develop what he has by doing that. But, when he (they) determine a project is a good idea and there's a market for it, I'm under the impression that he can make it happen much more capably than the developers of projects like the Grand Union (again, his track record seems to back this up).
It's a competitive world, and one can wonder if the Grand Union and the mall site can both happen (I'd like to hope so). But I don't see the Grand Union slowing the mall site because the Grand Union hasn't happened yet. If the two were competing for tenants (I have no ideas if they are or not in a direct sense), T. Wall stands a very good chance of winning (see the previous item).
Perhaps it's time to bring in some new blood and new ideas for the Grand Union site.



I heard a rumor that the Grand Union will not be happening. Now again that is just a rumor, but I tend to believe it.

It would be ashame to see the Grand Union fall through. It is such a prominent corner and with the Bellin Building being redone and the commercial space that will be going in the parking ramp it would be nice to have the Grand Union add to not only that intersection, but to the whole downtown as well.

Danillo, I forget were I saw it, possibly in here, but T-wall apparently was lining up some big time tenants and I'm assuming that with having a major tenant lined up and having a lot of money he will be able to get at least one of the 3 buildings up.

Also I was curious if you guys think there would be a market downtown to put up an apartment complex approximately the size of the Northland Hotel. Try to make it affordable and market it towards 18-30 year olds. I would like to think that if there was a nice place to rent right downtown that it would be attractive to a college student or someone who just graduated. Plus this would be another way to fill up some of the mall space with a decent size structure.

I heard a rumor that the Grand Union will not be happening. Now again that is just a rumor, but I tend to believe it.

Well, that project is quite a bit past it's sell-by date. At the very least some fresh ideas would be a good boost to the idea. I think it's important for that corner, and for the Meyer Theater that something get done there.

I forget were I saw it, possibly in here, but T-wall apparently was lining up some big time tenants and I'm assuming that with having a major tenant lined up and having a lot of money he will be able to get at least one of the 3 buildings up.

I'll add this to the growing list of things that make me believe more and more that T. Wall is far more capable at this stuff than anyone we've had come along so far. My confidence in the Mall site grows, and my guess is that when we see a proposal for it, it will come along with a financing package and time line that will be adhered to. I don't think these guys mess around.

Also I was curious if you guys think there would be a market downtown to put up an apartment complex approximately the size of the Northland Hotel. Try to make it affordable and market it towards 18-30 year olds. I would like to think that if there was a nice place to rent right downtown that it would be attractive to a college student or someone who just graduated. Plus this would be another way to fill up some of the mall space with a decent size structure.

Well, there the apartments going up right now as part of River Center, so I don't think college students would qualify for that, but those just out of school and beginning a career may very well. There's also the Northland itself, which something may become of, that could be residential.

danillo, your right when t-wall releases the plan to the public the leases will already have been signed for building one. Look for that to be soon within the next month.

A downtown developer with money?
One with a timeline??
One that doesn't mess around???
One with tenants already lined up??

Surely you speak of some mythical developer, a creature that certainly does not really exist (in Green Bay anyway).

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/Bigfoot1b.jpg

While I am thrilled to death that T-Wall already has these tenants lined up and there will be a set construction schedule I am just curious were he is getting all these tenants from? Is he just doing more work to line these up? I was just wondering because The Grand Union still isn't full and in a matter of a couple months T-Wall filled a whole building and possibly part of a second.

PGRrimmer- do you know if a lot of these tenants are from the Green Bay area or if they are just buddies of T-Wall from Madison that are moving here for a second office location?

Carver Expands Yacht Building to Green Bay

Updated: April 15, 2008 05:40 PM CDT

By Adam Aaro, WBAY.com

At Carver Boat Corporation headquarters in Pulaski, workers are putting the finishing touches on a 70-foot luxury yacht.

Now the half-century old company is launching an even bigger project to build yachts up to 100 feet -- an expansion that will ultimately mean hundreds of new jobs in Northeastern Wisconsin.

"Where would the less, the least amount of resistance and the best outcome going to happen? And our people concluded that it would be right here, both in Pulaski and Green Bay, Wisconsin," Irwin Jacobs, chairman of Genmar Holdings Inc., said.

To build those yachts, Carver is undergoing a $27 million expansion by adding on to its Marquis yacht division in Pulaski and opening a new production facility along Bay Beach Road in Green Bay.

"We'll assemble the whole yacht from there, and then from there launch it, and make deliveries throughout the Great Lakes, so it's quite an involved project," Carver Boat Corporation president and COO Robert Van Grunsven said.

When all is said and done, Carver says the project will create 450 new jobs for the area, in addition to the 850 Carver Boat already employs in Pulaski.

It's something Wisconsin Governor Jim Doyle is happy to sign on for. The state is contributing $4 million in state assistance, including a $2.7 million loan plus hundreds of thousands in job training and harbor assistance.

"As other states are talking about redoing their whole economies and going in other directions, I believe very strongly that we must remain a strong manufacturing state," the governor said.

Carver said Marquis yachts should start to be assembled in Green Bay by early August

I assume they'll use the old McDonald warehouse space here (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=44.537156~-87.996886&style=h&lvl=18&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15771233&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1). Good to see this.!

Hckyst, I have no idea what tenants the T. Wall project might be attracting. I'm skeptical. I seem to recall the Grand Union was something like half-lined up with tenants when it was first proposed. And Vetter claimed a lot more interest in his riverfront projects as well. Then these things fall through. More wait & see...

I have no idea what tenants the T. Wall project might be attracting. I'm skeptical. I seem to recall the Grand Union was something like half-lined up with tenants when it was first proposed. And Vetter claimed a lot more interest in his riverfront projects as well. Then these things fall through. More wait & see...

Things to remember:


Vetter is not a commercial developer. He will tell you he's not a commercial developer. His experience is not in commercial development. Now, I think he understands urban areas and the importance of commercial space within them, and that's why he's tried to add some commercial space. But it's never been his focus and it just isn't what he does.

The Grand Union is a fairly unique site with fairly small floor-plates. This is a plus and a minus in that it limits the types of possible tenants, but also makes the space unique. Also, I'd guess you'd say the developer for the Grand Union is the Chamber or the Meyer Board, and those aren't really groups who specialize in commercial development any more than Vetter, not do they have a track record in this.

By contrast, T. Wall is an established commercial developer with a track record of successful projects on this scale and financial backing to make them happen.


The point I'm trying to make is that while you are right to be somewhat skeptical about any given project, using commercial developments such as Grand Union and River Center as a comparison is not an apples to apples comparison. T. Wall, from everything I've ever heard about them, is in a different league when it comes to commercial development, and they have far more resources at their disposal then those who have made previous proposals.

Now, I want to be careful here, because I'm not trying to say that there's a problem with Vetter or the Grand Union folks, or that I think they are somehow incompetent. But, I don't think anyone can look at the track records of them, then look at the track record of T. Wall, and not conclude that T. Wall has a much greater shot at attracting tenants and successfully completing projects.

The news about carver is awesome really. That area is starting to morph from old unused industrial to a thriving marine district. I know they are not the white collar jobs that Green Bay and the valley needs, but there is still demand for industrial/technical jobs like those that Carver provides.

Great News about Carver. I know they have been having issues in Oconto with the river always being shallow and they wanted dredging. Is it me or is the Grand Union's website a little different. Maybe I am seeing things. It still says construction to start in Fall 2007.

Puant- Genaddi's tv show will be shot at their warehouse on Potts Ave. I do not know if they will leave the area and film around the area. The area and Wisconsin sure has been on tv shows and in films lately.

Delete Post

A downtown developer with money?
One with a timeline??
One that doesn't mess around???
One with tenants already lined up??

Surely you speak of some mythical developer, a creature that certainly does not really exist (in Green Bay anyway).



^^ :lol:

From Monday or Tuesday. I spend next to no time stitching the panos together, but you'll get the idea...

Washington Street side.
http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/rivCen1.jpg

Inside the old warehouse part.
http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/rivCen2.jpg

Along the river.
http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/rivCen3.jpg

Bricks going on.
http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/rivCen4.jpg

Riverfront.
http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/rivCen5.jpg

Awesome pics Danillo, I appreciate it. I try to get downtown as much as I can, but never seem to remember the camera ><

We need some pics of T. wall proposals for the mall! :bash:

I can't wait for the children's museum portion to start so it can fill the gap to washington street.

A few bits of info:

From the I&S committee agenda April 22, 2008

3. Request by River Vision Partners, LLC for an encroachment permit for foundation walls and parking structure screening along Pine Street and Washington Street.

Maybe they will be starting soon on the Childrens Museum...

Not sure on this one...

PROTECTION & WELFARE COMMITTEE - Agenda April 21, 2008

11. Application for a Class “B” Combination License by Concepts Unlimited, Inc. at 217 N. Washington Street (Transfer from The Filmore)

12. Application for a Class “B” Combination License by Concepts Unlimited, Inc. at 219 N. Washington Street (Transfer from Maloneys)

I have noticed that the Filmore is for sale but has it shut down?

Also noticed that Cheffetta's is moving to the old Glory Years/ Victoria's on Washington Street.

http://www.cheffettas.com/

Nice to see that fill back up quickly...

Does anyone know when we can expect to see some action on the ground floor of the Cherry St. Ramp? I would like to think that something would be starting soon.

^^Danillo, nice pics. I liked the 'interior' shot. Is that the space that Kavarna will be occupying?

GBSurveyor, as always good digs there. It's exciting to see.

Hckystr, As for the parking ramp retail, I thought I saw some people measureing stuff in there recently, but I don't know if that means anything.

Titletown, thanks for the info. You are right about the many films and stuff happening here lately. I remember a year or so ago there was some news about some tax breaks or something like that to encourage film makers to come to Wisconsin. Is that what this is about?

As for T. Wall, here is a review of one of his projects (http://www.madison.com/archives/read.php?ref=/wsj/2008/04/11/0804110186.php)that I thought you might be interested in. I sure can't wait to see his GB proposal. Looking at T Wall's web site (http://www.twallproperties.com/index.asp?menuid=156), it appears that one of their existing staff (development team) is already based in Green Bay (click here and scroll down to Jamie Blom). I'm glad to see this. It can help with the in-depth knowledge of what works, what doesn't work for an area like this. HOpefully Jamie brings that to the table.

I am excited as well about the T-Wall proposal. I drive around dt and just imagine what it would be like if the mall was redeveloped with multi-story buildings, the street grid was partially put back in, Astor was up, River Center done, City Deck finished, Site 4 developed, ramp retail done, and the Grand Union completed. I could only imagine how much of a different feel there would be downtown and the thought of actually feeling like you were in a downtown of a city becuase (not because of tall buildings) but because of the use of many parcels in a core area without many surface parking lots. I guess I shouldn't foregt the 3 story ShopKo Express building on the west side as well. But alas, I think the reality of what is Green Bay is always what trumps everything. T-Wall could be great but if they move existing office tenants downtown into their buildings, how does that help? The thought of bringing a major employer back downtown from outside the downtown area is much more appealing than moving one that is currently three blocks away. That would just create another hole downtown. I find it difficult to believe some major office tenant in Milwaukee or Madison would move their hq to Green Bay. There is a chance to possibly get a spin off office, which is what I am hoping for. Of everyone proposing developments downtown, again I echo what has been said before. I think T-Wall is by far the most reputable commercial/office developer we have had here in a while. Vetter does great work in Milwaukee, but why doesn't he just lop off a couple stories on Astor and get started? I would love to have a landmark building - but maybe it is time to say would we rather hold out another year or two to get 17 or start now at 12 and get some life? Plus I would have to say, what is the deal with the hollowed out Younkers buildings? I wouldn't locate a great or upscale restaurant in the River Center Development when the building above me looks like it was just bombed. Where are the plans or the starting dates :lol: on that portion? All there is, is talk about the Children's Museum and parking. Tenants only hold on for so long before they say to hell with it. Too many times that is the stigma with Green Bay. People are interested but delays "f" with the project and it dies a slow painful death. How old is the Astor proposal? 3, 3 1/2 years now. Someday soon the cord has to be cut. I would say maybe people aren't hot on this project anymore. Maybe a new style or direction is in order. I don't know, thinking out loud. Shit just doesn't seem to work here and looking at all of these other places in the midwest where smaller communities have created vibrant downtowns without a stadium or college presence, or huge company backing projects, and it just makes me wonder - what the hell is wrong with Green Bay? Also Chefetta's. Great for Green Bay, but what the hell are they thinking? I love their current location. There's an outdoor patio too. It's almost like the kiss of death. The building itself I think needs a lot of work exterior wise. Then maybe it would work. But you still need people. When I ate there , there were a lot of older folk. Do older folk really go into downtown much? Nothing against it, but they remember what dt used to be and most I've talked t say there isn't anything left there except for crime and vacancies. Those 4, 1 story office buildings just north of Mason Street Bridge are drying up without tenants. Another great foresight project. We are of the mind set of take what we can get when we get it rather than try to get the best when we can get it. Some may say that's contradictory to what I said above regarding Astor, but he owns the property. We need to get something out of him. I'll take 12 over nothing. If we own the property that is when we can set the parameters and say, get as close or exceed them or there is the door. The City did own the Flatley site, not anymore.

All this is hypothetical. Again just to start discussion. Ahhh, beautiful Sunday. I'll have a beer and enjoy my yard and maybe grill out. Cuz there sure as shit isn't anything going on dt. :cheers:

Little synical I know. But the truth.:devil:

My understanding is the Children's Museum will be complete around Spring 2009. It sure would be nice if someone would build some apartment buildings downtown that are not just for low-income or elderly. In my opinion this is a huge void in the downtown. Also, why can't the GB Packers buy like 5- 10 condos for first years players while they are relocating.

Green Bay 4 Life - I totally agree will you about Astor Place. Build a 12-14 story condo already and who cares about the 17 stories. I would love to have skyscrapers, but first we need to start building a downtown with life. One thing at a time...

The Cherry St. "Ribbon Retail" will start anytime now. In this article, http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa5284/is_20080219/ai_n24933553
it said it may start in March. :lol:

Republic Steakhouse to open in the summer

I am excited as well about the T-Wall proposal. I drive around dt and just imagine what it would be like if the mall was redeveloped with multi-story buildings, the street grid was partially put back in, Astor was up, River Center done, City Deck finished, Site 4 developed, ramp retail done, and the Grand Union completed. I could only imagine how much of a different feel there would be downtown and the thought of actually feeling like you were in a downtown of a city becuase (not because of tall buildings) but because of the use of many parcels in a core area without many surface parking lots. I guess I shouldn't foregt the 3 story ShopKo Express building on the west side as well.
I am with you on this one, I think any "regular" here has the same feelings that you echo. You know... the other night I was sitting upstairs at Titletown (now that it is completely smoke free!) with the family and it occured to me that stuff is actually changing in downtown, buildings are taking shape, the large Larson warehouses are almost a thing of the past. I hate to sound too optimstic, but I have this strange feeling that things are changing, (I still recall peering at the "vonkers" sign, yes I mean vonkers, it was the burnt out Y, that seemed to last for years) and it seems like only yesterday that the Main St. bridge was closed and took forever to replace, or catching a show about comedy city (when it was still on Washington St.)

I wouldn't locate a great or upscale restaurant in the River Center Development when the building above me looks like it was just bombed. Where are the plans or the starting dates :lol: on that portion? All there is, is talk about the Children's Museum and parking.

I get that feeling while looking at the Port Plaza mall enterance on washington St.
BTW I dig the idea for the tower from the article titletown posted

A skeletal section of the former Younkers store will be reused as the apartment portion of River Center. Part of the former brick warehouse of the store, which straddles Pine Street overhead, also will be reused as part of River Center's ground floor retail and restaurant areas.

A historic water tower there, one of the city's tallest structures, also will be saved. Although the water tank was removed, the tower can be saved.

"Rather than remove a familiar feature, our proposal is to retain it and add a glowing lighthouse-like lantern to its top," says James Shields, an architect with Hammel, Green and Abrahamson, Inc., of Milwaukee. We hope to preserve and enhance this landmark on Green Bay's skyline, bringing attention to the new development at its base."

I think it will look Ok when complete

Also Chefetta's. Great for Green Bay, but what the hell are they thinking? I love their current location. There's an outdoor patio too. It's almost like the kiss of death. The building itself I think needs a lot of work exterior wise. Then maybe it would work. But you still need people. When I ate there , there were a lot of older folk. Do older folk really go into downtown much? Nothing against it, but they remember what dt used to be and most I've talked t say there isn't anything left there except for crime and vacancies.

Well their thoughts are on their web site...

Cheffetta's Is Moving May 6th!

347 S Washington St

Next to The Quality Inn Downtown Green Bay

Same Great Menu
50 More Parking Spaces
Larger Lounge to enjoy our live music
No Stairs to Climb
Same Great Service & Employees
Two Blocks from the Meyer Theater


Those 4, 1 story office buildings just north of Mason Street Bridge are drying up without tenants. Another great foresight project. We are of the mind set of take what we can get when we get it rather than try to get the best when we can get it.

Well I think this was another one of those suburban buildings stuck downtown and all you see is parking (yuk), hence the need for $10/gal gas, we somehow have to break our dependance on gas. It will hurt bad but the way I see it we can not continue developing like this.

All this is hypothetical. Again just to start discussion. Ahhh, beautiful Sunday. I'll have a beer and enjoy my yard and maybe grill out. Cuz there sure as shit isn't anything going on dt. :cheers:

I love discussion... I have had my fill of yard work and is sure is nice to have the return of nice weather.:cheers:

OK i am still not done rambling... We went down on the Fox river trail today and it was so busy, if a person was from out of town they might have thought they were in a larger population center. It just is too bad that maybe only a small fraction of the users ever venture north of Mason.:ohno:

I hope the City Deck will change this ("The Shitty Deck: - I still can't get that comment out of my head) sorry...:lol:

I use the trail, and well...it gets a little creepy just before Mason (kind of vacant-seeming, some old warehouse by the river, and sometimes creepy people are out and about...kind of a gap between more vibrant areas) and just after...so you have to get past that part if you want to get downtown. In fact, that's one reason people don't go downtown...that they get an unsafe feeling...part of that feeling is created by vacant areas, disconnected areas, or not enough people walking around on the sidewalks.

Feel unsafe in Green Bay, you have got to be kidding? There is no place in this town I am afraid to walk in ESPECIALLY downtown. This comment probably says it all, "sometimes creepy people are out", not the white collar crowd you like to surround yourself with.

BOO!

^^ Yes, I don't know that I've ever felt unsafe walking in the downtown. But, there are plenty of people who do, and plenty of people who have an over-inflated sense of how dangerous the city is. That's not to say that there aren't real problems or that we can't or shouldn't do better, but at the same time there's not much unsafe about the downtown in general.

This does highlight something that I worry about regarding the CityDeck. One of the important functions of a space like that is that it gets people out of their neighborhoods, which tend to be filled with people like themselves, and into a realm where people from the community of all kinds gather. Now, lets face it, there are people in this town who are not going to want to share a space with people from too different of economic class, race, or whatever. And when the CityDeck is built, all those people will be seen there. Groups of teenage kids, homeless people, uncool Wisconsinites wearing unfashionable clothes (GASP!), etc. And there are going to be some people who don't like that and won't like that the city has spent money on a place in which they'll feel unsafe and will try to spread the message that the CityDeck is unsafe because of all of these strange people there.

I hope I'm overstating the point here, and my guess is that the vast majority of people in this city who use the CityDeck will like it and think it's a vibrant place. But I think we've seen enough times where this community can have a hard time dealing with it's increased diversity, and things become polarized and problems are blown out of proportion. I think the people who work to plan for the downtown's future need to be thinking about this sort of thing, problems that actually would be the result of success and more people wanting to be downtown, so that as things improve we are prepared for new obstacles that will arise.

I personally believe downtown is safe to walk around in, I guess I was more trying to say that I do feel more comfortable in areas that are more well-traveled, dense, and vibrant when I am walking alone, so I was more making an argument for density, then added that some people really do think of urban areas in general as unsafe...a perception to get past for some. I was responding to GBSurveyor's observation that people don't go beyond a certain area on the trail, and offering a possible reason why some people don't. It might not be the reason, the reason just might be that people don't have enough destinations downtown that they want to go to, but regardless, some do have a negative perception of downtown. And yes, there are some creepy people and places in this town, just like any other.
As for the City Deck, people like being where the people are, and though some in GB have issues with diversity, I don't think of GB as snobby or exclusive at all...I don't foresee people having a problem with the City Deck because they don't like different types of people. All kinds of people exist in all kinds of areas around here, whether you go to the suburbs or GB or out in the country. Folks will probably just be happy to have an extra destination to go to when out and about in the city. It will be interesting to see though if any diversity-related issues do come up as a result of the increased use of downtown.

^^ If I were to describe people in Green Bay, I wouldn't call them snobby or exclusive either. I don't think most people will feel that way about the CityDeck. But I've already heard enough people talk about the proposals to feel that there will be some elements on one side who will say the CityDeck is just for yuppies and not for "real" Green Bay people (whatever that is), and on the other side there will be some people who won't like seeing some of the worse-off people of society that they can normally avoid in their daily lives. Not that these people will be a majority or anything, but it's an extension of the sort of stuff we already hear and the CityDeck will highlight.

And I'm sorry if I misrepresented you regarding the safety thing. I wasn't referring to you at all, it's just that the discussion brought up some things that I'd already been thinking about.

Chefettas
When Victoria's moved into the old "Glory Years" building, I went there once and had a bad feeling about the place, I didn't think they'd make it. I've never been inside Cheffetta's but I know of the place, I think their current location is pretty good too. I hope they know what they're doing...

4 suburban-style buildings on Washington just norht of Mason
I too have been watching these things (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=rdjc207nyjcv&style=b&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&cam=44.281599~-88.3849&scene=15773826&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1) die a slow, painful death. Of course if you know me, you know I wasn't ever impressed with them even when they were full. What the hell these things are doing in downtown I have no idea. Thing is they *should* work by many of the suburban standards-- they're right on the waterfront, high visibility from Mason, also with decent traffic from Wash & Adams and the Fox River trail; there is tons of parking; they're relatively new & up-to-date; yet they very clearly *aren't* working. What next? Can these things somehow be retrofitted to serve some other purpose, or will they just sit there forever as yet another tattered hole in the downtown fabric? The way they're built, it's going to be tough to use them for any other purpose. How about some housing here?

Sunday downtown
I was actually somewhat surprised by the number of people out & about on Sunday afternoon, at least around Washington St. Sure it was completely dead a couple blocks east where all of the banks & government offices were closed, but some of the other areas near the river had more people than I expected, it seems more than there would have been just a few years ago.

Fox River Trail
This trail was probably one of the best things to happen near the river in a long time. I think I heard that it is the most heavily-used state trail in Wisconsin. Unfortunately the "State Trail" portion doesn't start until Porlier St.
To the north is the area some think is "less of an attraction". I disagree. Think about how far it's come just in the last 2-3 years : They've actually CONNECTED it (remember near where those huge old electric lines over the river were, and also near the old mall that crumbling old parking ramp was set tight up against the river and blocked the trail). They've added some cool things like turning the old railroad trestle into a pier (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=rdhhyz7nybb2&style=b&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&cam=44.281599~-88.3849&scene=15773888&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1). Also there have been quite a few new buildings put up (Johnson Bank, St. Brendans (which recently added a deck overlooking the trail); FoxHarbor has improved their portion with their courtyard and boat docks; there is lots of new public art along this section. Add to that the new banks and condos.
Granted, that portion between Porlier and Mason needs improvement (a small park, transient boat dock, or other public use seems appropriate). But all in all I'm happy with the improvements that have been made here just in a couple years. It brings people through, and when city deck is done and hopfully more of the other DT improvements, it will really bring a lot more people through.

Titletown Brewery: Smoke Free and paying off?
I TRIED to take my family there last weekend but the place was so freakin' busy they said it was going to be like an hour wait. I wondered if the smoke-free policy is actually helping them.

Creepy People
In regards to CityDeck and the potential to attract Weird People. I wondered what Chicago was doing to keep the pesky weirdos and stuff. 10 years ago you could harldly walk anywhere around DT Chicago without seeing skid row all around and getting hit up for money left and right. Recently I see much less of that. Nobody asks for money. Almost nobody is just lying around passed out wasted (not even me!). A couple weeks ago as we walked through the museum campus near the Shedd Aquarium and stuff, I was wondering, Where did the panhandlers who like to hit up tourists like me go?. Along all of the new pathways and prominades through Grant Park and stuff there is perfect space to hit people up for money and otherwise hang out and cause trouble. Seemed like the city had to have somehow taken some action to make them go away.

"Also, why can't the GB Packers buy like 5- 10 condos for first years players while they are relocating."

I wonder... does anyone in here talk to Vetter or know if he has explored this option? If he were able to sell a few to the Packers he would be able to meet his sales goal and we would have the 17 story tower we've been waiting 2 years for.

4 suburban style buildings north of mason
Puant I totally agree with you that something needs to be done about these buildings. If UWGB were to relocate a learning center, or some student housing for upperclassmen who want to be downtown, I feel that this would be a prime location for that. It has a reasonable amount of green space. Its on the river, and if they did build up a few stories for a dorm or lecture hall there is still plenty of space to put a ramp to provide enough parking.

Um... I really doubt the Packers are going to buy a few million dollars worth of condos as temporary housing for incoming players. I'm sure there are much better ways for them to spend a few mil. that would help attract players and improve the team beyond that sort of thing. Now, if were talking about individual players buying them to live in themselves, I think that has been explored. I know that there are several condos in Riverfront Lofts owned by Packers, and some time ago when I interviewed Vetter about who was buying condos in Astor Place, one of the groups he listed was "professional athletes." As much as I'd like there to be one, I don't think there's a magic bullet to get these units sold (unless you count "Dan wins a $300 million lottery," in which case I have a feeling that selling the final units to an interested investor would take care of itself. So if anyone know how to make this happen, PLEASE let me know!).

Regarding the four suburban buildings, if I'm being honest, I just don't get that excited or worried about them. To be sure, they really don't belong, and if a better plan came forward for that space then by all means do something. I'm much more concerned about the "core" area from the river to Jefferson, and between Walnut and Main (plus Washington south another block). Not that other areas don't matter, but I just feel that if the Frankenthal building was used, the Schauer and Schumacher buildings were used, and if the mall gets demoed and rebuilt, that could be a really vibrant core. Not that more fringe areas aren't important and worth spending time on, and certainly not that anyone else shouldn't be concerned about them. But for me, I worry more about the core and I think if we fill that and make that smaller area really great, these other sorts of places will become a lot more in demand and a lot easier to fill with better development.

I was driving thru downtown today and noticed behind Titletown Brewery there was a huge fire earlier. Much of the cannery that was gutted out was black from the blaze.

The fire was really minor, lots of smoke, no real damage. It had something to do with a welding torch.

hey guys & gals,

I stumbled across this site over the winter & have been lurking since. I'm glad to know there are many out there that share my interest in the downtown development & the future of this city..

The fire yesterday got me thinking.. I drive by that property & see work being done, I've heard "a mix of business, entertainment, & living", & I know that there's a Shopko Express going in on the corner, but that's all I know.

Are there any definitive plans yet for what the space is going look like, tenants other than Shopko, etc?

Are there any definitive plans yet for what the space is going look like, tenants other than Shopko, etc?

Welcome, Jerky. If you do a search on the thread for "Larsen" you will find plenty of messages to answer your questions. Here is a Press-Gazette article about the site to start you off.

Plans for new Shopko Express 'big statement' for Broadway district

By Richard Ryman
rryman@greenbaypressgazette.com

Shopko’s decision to open a Shopko Express pharmacy at Broadway and Dousman Street was hailed today as an important step for downtown development.

The Green Bay Area Chamber of Commerce also will move into the new building.

“We have a number of (development) things in the red zone on the east side and the west side,” said Mayor Jim Schmitt. “This could help push them across the goal line.”

Smet Construction Co. of Howard will build a three-story, 39,000-square-foot building on the northeast corner of Dousman Street and Broadway. Shopko Express, a full-service pharmacy, will occupy the ground floor and the Green Bay Area Chamber of Commerce the third floor of the $4.5 million building. There is room for a third tenant.

The building is scheduled for completion by early fall. It is part of the 22-acre Larsen Co. project being developed by On Broadway Inc. Plans call for a mixture of work, living and public spaces on the site of the former vegetable-processing plant.

“This is a big statement from a business development standpoint,” said Naletta Burr, On Broadway director.

Michael MacDonald, chairman and chief executive officer of Ashwaubenon-based Shopko, said they want to be a catalyst for further development in the area, they saw an opportunity to serve an underserved area and they think the store will be profitable.

“If one and two are successful, we believe we will be financially successful,” he said.

Broadway district residents have been saying for years that they would like more such services downtown.

“This neighborhood was in need of this,” Schmitt said. “They have two great tenan[i]ts so far. It doesn’t get any better.”

A Save-A-Lot grocery store is one block west on Dousman Street. Burr said that was another factor in Shopko’s decision.

“One of the things Shopko is attracted to is the proximity of services already in the area,” she said.

Paul Jadin, Green Bay Area Chamber of Commerce president, said the chamber also wants to be a catalyst for development in the area.

“It’s a statement that Broadway and Dousman is downtown. It’s also a statement that Broadway has made so much improvement, it’s ready for these kinds of things,” he said.

Smet Construction said it will buy the chamber’s current office at 400 S. Washington St.

Burr said the Larsen Co. site is one of the few in the downtown area large enough to accommodate national tenants, such as Shopko.

To assist the project, the city and the Redevelopment Authority will loan Smet $3 million at 5.5 percent interest to be repaid over 20 years. They also will loan the developers $850,00 for development costs to be paid back through tax incremental financing and a no-interest loan of $725,000 to be repaid in a lump sum at the end of a year. The RDA also will lease parking space to the development for $1 a year for 20 years.

Paul Belschner of Smet Construction said a ground-breaking ceremony will be scheduled soon.

Riverfront superdeveloper John Vetter received two state architecture awards today, as reported in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=745574

If you click on the link there is a slideshow of all of the products that won awards. I'm actually not a big fan of his office building (although it'll look better once the ground floor is filled with retail) but the row houses are kind of cool. Definitely the Vetter style. Do yourself a favor and check out the downtown bar (not Vetter's). It's sweeeeeeeeeet.

^^ Also worth noting that HGA, the designers of Pier Wisconsin, were also the designers for the main portion (not the rental lofts) of River Center, so there also that tie between the article and the GB riverfront.

Hey Guys,

I'd like to start of by saying, I truly appreciate this thread and all the posts you guys have shared. I have tried to keep up the best I can with all the great information you all are sharing. Keep up the good work.

Background
I'm a high school senior at Southwest High School. Unfortunately my parents decided to be part of suburbia and have relocated the family from our Green Bay West Home (near MacArthur Elementary School), to AshPere (the outskirts of Ashwaubenon, near DePere).

My Downtown Story
Sitting in a room of the UWGB education center in Washington Commons filled with high school sophomores, we listened to Jeff Mirkes of Downtown Green Bay, Inc educate us on how he, and others were helping to make downtown Green Bay a better place. After leaving the days installment of Brown County Teen Leadership I was inspired to be an advocate of Downtown Green Bay. I spent the next days studying the past, the current, and the future of Downtown Green Bay.

This reminded me of the days when my family would pack up in the van and head down to Port Plaza to do our daily shopping. What a thrill it was to walk by the giant clock as it rung at the top of the hour. Although I was young, I was proud to be a Green Bay citizen.

Fast forward a few years to today. As a high school senior I will soon be leaving my great hometown to study Hotel, Restaurant, and Tourism Management at UW-Stout. As part of my pre-college studies I have dedicated myself to sampling a new restaurant in the area every week. And as I began my study in downtown Green Bay, months later I am still sampling from restaurants in downtown Green Bay. Maybe it's just an excuse for me to see the latest addition to the RiverCenter, or to hit up the central library, but I have found that there are many hidden gems of restaurants in downtown Green Bay. I have a re-invested interest in downtown, and am excited to see what downtown Green Bay will look upon my return from college. I understand it takes time, and I am willing to wait. It is my understanding that in a democracy, many people will be given the chance to voice their pessimism about the outlook of downtown Green Bay. But I think that whatever it is I come back to Green Bay with in 5 years will be a dramatic improvement.

Although I won't be able to post much, I am open to answering questions about high schoolers' views on the city and it's future. As a member of the school's student council I dialogue a lot with my 'constituents' about the problems within our school, but I also find myself engaging in talks about our communities problems, and more specifically, downtown Green Bay.

So, in closing this substantially long post, I would like to say that I am very optimistic:):):) about the improvements of downtown Green Bay, and I look forward to engaging in dialogue with all of the posters here on SkyscraperCity. Also, as a side note, I hope to be creating a blog about restaurants in the area soon, stay posted.

^^ That... was... AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, that made my day right there. Thanks and welcome to the forum!

I do have a few questions for you: What do your peers seem to think about the downtown? Do they share your view that things are improving? Are they excited about what's happening? Do they even care at all? And finally, do you think that the condition of the downtown over your lifetime and/or the plans to redevelop it of the next several years is impacting their career objective or where they'd like to live after college (or sooner if they are not attending college)?

MattGiguere,

First off, welcome to the forum. Like many people around here, I am mostly a passive poster, but avid reader. I log on multiple times per day and get upset each time there isn't something new to read or discuss. Like Danillo said, it is great to hear the perspective of some younger members of our community. I'm not that much older (26), but the age gap does bring a whole different element of downtown to me and my friends, which is really the reason for my post. Danillo asked about what the perception is of downtown, but I'm more curious as to what the area actually offers to those in their late teens. Like you said, there are a lot (okay, more than there were) of very good restaurants in the area, but is there anything else that draws you to downtown?

My circle of friends tend to go DT only on a limited basis and use it mostly as a dinning/entertainment venue. I am very excited for the City Deck as a way to utilize the waterways on a more consistent basis.

As long as I'm rambling here, does anybody know if the Downtown Green Bay, On Broadway, etc. groups are aware of how many avid posters and participators we have on this site alone that are interested in downtown issues and ideas? It seems like boards like this one would be a great way for these organizations to present ideas and get people involved at a grass roots level. I know more is being done to promote downtown than in years past, but it seems like info is still few and far between.

I'm hopping I'm killing both of your birds with this one post Danillo and Oliver.

Danillo: What do your peers seem to think about the downtown? Do they share your view that things are improving? Are they excited about what's happening? Do they even care at all?

To be quite honest with you Danillo, to find someone at my age with the same view point on downtown Green Bay is hard to do. My passion of great food brings me to downtown, and that is pretty much my one draw. I also enjoy stopping by the library to read a good book, or stop at the DailyBuzz for a cup of coffee. But I wouldn't say that is the typical day for a high school student. As I have conversed with students at my school about downtown Green Bay, they seem to attach their response with that of their parents. It's as if they have brainwashed them to dislike downtown. For example, if I ask a student what they think of downtown, they would respond by saying "well, our family doesn't really go down there." Doesn't go down there, what is it some sort of disastrous ground where only the brave go? Even as I converse with my parents over dinner only a few minutes ago about going to the Sam & Ruby concert tonight at the Meyer, they scold me to be careful, and tell me to get there early so I can find a parking spot. Since when did walking become a chore? It only helps me to get a better perspective of the city.
To get back to the questions...

Danillo: Do you think that the condition of the downtown over your lifetime and/or the plans to redevelop it of the next several years is impacting their career objective or where they'd like to live after college (or sooner if they are not attending college)?

That is a tough question for me to answer. Being in the restaurant industry I can say that the market will almost always be there for a new restaurant to open, barring the consumers taste. As the saying goes, "people need to eat, right?" And, if Green Bay is suitable for a new restaurant upon my return from college, I will be the first on the list to make it my goal to do business in Green Bay.
Unfortunately I don't have the statistics to back it up, but I heard from a business owner that visited one of my classes that over 70% of high school students listed that they want to open their own business as their career interest. And I can say that the majority of the students I talk with share that aspiration. But then the question lies, what type of business they would like to own. Unfortunately, that question is rarely answered upon my asking. The usual response is that they are just looking forward to attending college to get their degree in Business, and they will figure it out then.
To take the question another way, simply asking my crones if they are interested in returning to Green Bay after college gets a more assertive answer. When asked, they are quick to say no, stating, what is there here for me? or I want to be as far a way from my parents as I can be. But when reality sets in, and they become more great full for the acommendations their parents are providing for them, they will understand what potential a city like Green Bay has, especially if they want to start their own business.
I am proud to say that there are a select few from Southwest who will stay to attend UWGB, St. Norbert, or NWTC to continue their education.

OliverDP: Danillo asked about what the perception is of downtown, but I'm more curious as to what the area actually offers to those in their late teens. Like you said, there are a lot (okay, more than there were) of very good restaurants in the area, but is there anything else that draws you to downtown?

Wow, another great question. Other than indulging on a great meal at a new restaurant, there are only two other reasons I can think of that a young adult will take the "long travel" from southwest Green Bay to downtown, and that is the library (which there is a very accessible one in Ashwaubenon) or if they enjoy history, the Neville. But, your right Oliver, in alluding to the fact that there isn't much for us downtown. As part of Brown County Teen Leadership we got the chance to talk with officials from the Brown County Planning Commission and they were interested to see what we wanted to see downtown. The students in the group stated that, at the time, they wanted things such as an IMAX theatre, parks, and a dry night club. Now although the planning commission was thrilled to quote "hear our input," they didn't seem to digress any further.
The way I see it is, the truth is that Green Bay used to have a least a few "kid friendly" places (i.e Children's Museum in Mall), but now that they have gone, parents are hesitant to send their kids downtown because they see it as a drunk's paradise and a "mature environment." This keeps the kids from getting exposure to our downtown, and only leaves it to be a mature environment. And this leads them to not come back to Green Bay, if they can't even see the potential of downtown Green Bay, why would they even come back. I think that getting the Children's Museum to downtown will help restore a family environment, and maybe one of those kids going to the museum will be inspired to one day own their business in downtown Green Bay.

But that's my opinion this 2nd day of May 2008.

*Sorry I get a little long winded.

Welcome, "MattGiguere." (Matt's one of my students who out of nowhere this week asked me if I posted on Skyscraper City) :)

Besides teaching geography, I also teach economics. I know that people's consumption decisions and firms' investment decisions are impacted by their perception of the economy. Consumers will cut their spending in a recession and firms, knowing this, will delay capital investment in a recession.

So, it's a shame that things are finally happening downtown and we are getting closer to that "critical mass" in which there is enough geographic inertia for development to become self-sustaining -- and we're in the toughest economic times in the past 15 years (or perhaps even 25).

If our new president can get our economy turned around in the next year I would be surprised if it didn't accelerate the good news downtown. I have promised myself not to become pessimistic until we find out how our downtown behaves in a more robust economy!

I always get confused over the names of the projects proposed in downtown Green Bay. Could someone please give a list of the projects and the status of each? Like, not approved, approved but waiting for construction date, or under construction. Thanks!:)

Great to see some new people commenting, I love to hear your perspectives on this whole discussion!

I'm trying to remember way back when I was in high school & college like --gasp--back in the ancient times known as the late '80s and early '90s. What was my mindset at the time? Driving through small towns and the country could be OK but that got boring for me. What attracted some of my friends and I to downtowns? We were too young for the bars. We had little money so it wasn't so much the shopping, although maybe we'd peruse through music stores and pick up a few cassettes, maybe even a couple of us got those new-fangled things called "CD"s, or some other crap that glowed in the dark or whatever. So what then was it that drew us into downtowns? Was it the peep shows? No....that wasn't it. Stadiums? Sometiems but not often. "Youth Centers"? I avoided those places like the plague for whatever reason. Malls were sort of the rage, but once we scoped for chicks and played a few video games or whatever, malls got old.

I think the biggest draw that brought us to downtowns was just to be some place where there was a bunch of other people doing a whole bunch of different things, we could always choose on a whim to do this or that or just hang out and BS, act stupid, look for chicks, throw a frisbee or a football, play with a hackey sack, whatever. Sure you can go and BS and act stupid in out in the country or in a parking lot somewhere, but that gets kind of old and there wasn't a critical mass of chicks (at least not in number, you know). I always liked going to a bigger city.

So I'm not sure what kids in Green Bay do, since I did not grow up or go to college here. I can understand that going into downtown GB is NOT high on the list. But my point here I guess is that I'm not sure we need to depend on attractions specialized just for younger people (although I'm not against them, I don't think you can just stick something "cool" for kids in the downtown and expect them to just magically come around) Those things are fine, but just having some sort of happening place where there was just a whole bunch of different things going on (people, parks, some cool stores, chicks, all sorts of different & interesting things) would have been what brought me back frequently.

I agree with you Puant, I totally do.

But I will counterpoint by saying that Appleton put in a place called ParkCentral, and it draws from all over NEW. A frequent hot spot for 16-17 year olds year round.

Now, I'm not doubting the idea that cultural hot spots, like parks and shops as you mentioned would draw them downtown, I think that something such as ParkCentral, a dry nightclub would only prove as a benefit.

Welcome Matt. Great discussions going everybody.

A "Dry" night at one of the downtown clubs would be great. To start, a club could easily have a cover charge, (with a student discount,) to make up for lost liquor sales on that night. When the City Deck is in place the environment would have an edge over Park Central if the patrons of the club want to get out of the club for a few minutes for some fresh air or talk, (or play hacky sack.) Green Bay has somewhat turned its back on that age group and it's time to change that. There are two big teen conferences held at the KI Center in Green Bay and offering entertainment options to the participants for their free time after seminars would undoubtedly add to the street life. As Matt pointed out, Park Central draws customers from throughout NE Wisconsin and Green Bay would do the same. It's nothing for a carload of young adults to drive an hour to a place to listen to music and socialize with others. If people will drive from Green Bay to The Rave in Milwaukee then surely they can drive from throughout NE Wisconsin to downtown GB to dance.

I don't know much about ParkCentral in Appleton, but I'd like to find out more. What sorts of thing is it? I googled it but didn't see much.

I was wondering if some more could be done in GB for teens in the new park on the west side of the river along Dousman. That park is woefully underutilized most of the time, there is ample space for things like skating, being loud, playing music, etc. Now of course people will always argue that doing ANYTHING for teens is just inviting trouble, so how do we counter that? The book I just read by Jane Jacobs did a pretty compelling job of saying that all age groups should have things to do all in sort of a mixed -together environment, like what you'd find in a dense vibrant city. That way, she says, kids are always under the watch of older people, nearby residents & business owners, etc and use more of a citizen's approach to controlling the streets, rather than simply relying entirely on the police. When there are more "eyes on the streets", eyes of all sorts of people, you people tend to be less rowdy or even if some do start to make trouble, there are enough people who care about the street & neighborhood to actually take action and do soemting about it. It's tough to explain this, maybe you understand what I'm saying but if not read "THe Death & LIfe of Great American Cities"..a timeless classic that most of you would be interested in.

I always get confused over the names of the projects proposed in downtown Green Bay. Could someone please give a list of the projects and the status of each? Like, not approved, approved but waiting for construction date, or under construction. Thanks!:)

Astor Place Condos - 17 Story Condo Building with Retail Space (Approved - been proposed for almost 3 years - awaiting on reaching number of presales prior to breaking ground)

http://astorplacecondos.com/home.htm

The Grand Union - 9 Story Office Building (Proposed - Was supposed to start construction Fall of 2007. Interst in reserving floors seemed promising however it seems to have waned. No new information except rumor that it is dead for now)

http://www.thegranduniongb.com/

River Center - Redevelopment of former Younkers Building (Portion under construction - the 8 Story River Center Apartment Building - Remaining space to include new Children's Museum, Restaurants, and condos. Other portion has sat dormant - not sure of that status. Long overdue of Vetter's timeline, as always)

No Website

T-Wall looking at redeveloping mall site - Planning Option

Prestige Park Towers - 2 12 story condo buildings and retail. Proposed

http://www.prestigeparktowers.com/

New 3 story ShopKo Express and Chamber Building - Under Construction at corner of Broadway and Dousman

Other projects of note:

New Aloft Hotel of Green Bay - Under construction in Ashwaubenon

http://www.starwoodhotels.com/alofthotels/property/overview/index.html?propertyID=3230

Obviously the City Deck, Ramp Retail, Site 4 have been kicked around.

Also, anyone see the new Copp's on Main Street. One of the better looking big box stores in the Green Bay area hands down...

Also, anyone see the new Copp's on Main Street. One of the better looking big box stores in the Green Bay area hands down...

I'm wondering what's going to happen to the old building. Will it be torn down, or developed into something else? It's a god location for a multi-themed nightclub complex. There's enough parking and it would be utilized at different times of the day by the mixed use of a shopping center and nightclub.

Getting more use of the Leight Festival Grounds should be a priority to getting more people downtown on a consistent basis. Other than Bayfest and a Hispanic festival, I don't know of any other events held there over the 20 weekends of the season. I think it would be interesting to have a mini lollapalooza weekend of music, carnival midway and sideshow freaks. I'd pay to do something different like that. Or maybe the two breweries could host a regional beer festival inviting other small breweries to compete for the best beer. :cheers:

I agree that integrated demographics in the street life will help to ease the perception that there's too many teens. There also needs to be a reason to be there at different times of the day, a dry nightclub draws in the evening, but there must be reasons to go there during the day also. What could some of those reasons be? Anyone got any ideas? I don't think the answer is going to come from any one development or solution, but a combination of things. The mall redevelopment is where it's going to happen, break it up for a mixture of possibilities. That will help to make downtown like a buffet table of office, commercial and entertainment uses that appeal to everyone.

I'm wondering what's going to happen to the old building. Will it be torn down, or developed into something else? It's a god location for a multi-themed nightclub complex. There's enough parking and it would be utilized at different times of the day by the mixed use of a shopping center and nightclub.


I had heard it will be torn down and a significant strip center will be constructed in the future. A great user would be a Best Buy or Barnes and Noble as the east side is lacking...

I had heard it will be torn down and a significant strip center will be constructed in the future. A great user would be a Best Buy or Barnes and Noble as the east side is lacking...

A Barnes & Noble would be great. I would use the B&N on Oneida more but the traffic congestion makes me want to avoid that area.

With gas prices the way they are, I'll likely start using Metro Transit for activities like going to bookstores and coffee shops. It only takes me about seven minutes to walk to the bus depot on University Ave. and a ride just about anywhere on the East side is less than 15 minutes. So for me public transportation is looking like a better option for casual trips. Sure, taking a car is quicker and more convenient, but it lacks the experiential affect of being around and interacting with people in the community.

Good for you Navarino. I feel rather hypocritical at times with my blog posts railing on sprawl, because I currently live out on the fringe...Although it's not all bad out here, I have come to realize the "american dream" of living in the suburban fringe isn't all what it was cracked up to be. In my 35 years I have never lived this far out from a town center...even tho in GB everything is supposedly just a "10-minute drive"...it's not....and now I'm regretting it. I miss living in or near downtown... I guess that realization is what gives me some motivation and perspective for my anti-sprawl views.

I wonder if Barnes & Noble would be interested in the mall site or some other site downtown? Isn't it totally ridiculous that we don't have a bookstore downtown? I mean, we have some really cool used book stores like the Attic, but a downtown the size of GB ought to support some more.

When I was in high school (early 90s) we spent most of our time at The Option. It was a dry club out past McDonalds on Main Street, mostly catered to punks, skateboarders, goths and ravers. Another shortlived club opened up across from that park by the Greyhound station called Times Square, average teen style/jocks/peppies, but it never took off. The Top Shelf also had some dry nights, it was right downtown across from the YMCA geared more toward the hip hop scene.

I went down to Park Central a couple of times just for something different. It was 4 clubs under one roof or something, each with a different musical theme. The place was always packed. If it's still in business today, they must be doing something right.

Green Bay could definitely support a venture like that. It would easily corner the market on every thrill-seeking teen north of Green Bay. Those kids drive to Green Bay for such simple excitement as going to a fast food place or a mall. They would be all over a club.

Ahhh yes, the old dry club days. I remember going to the place on Irwin, what is now Maria's, can't recall the name, maybe Visions? I also remember going to the option and then the basement, and there was a place out way out on West Mason, now Martin's College of Cosmetology. There was also Concert cafe and I also remeber going to see Pantera, I think it was the Orphium, or what is now known as Confetti's and then there was the Bay 3 and the West theatre. Are there still any dry places around Green Bay? What the hell do youth do these days?

So anyways, what the hell is taking so long for the Childrens Museum to get going. At this rate I am going to have to renew my Fox Valley one again...

I hate to bring down our great urban forum, but the New Copps does look so much better then anything else remotely similar going up these days. I sure hope that something nice would get built in the place of the old store, maybe another auto parts store? Did anyone happen to see the beauty being constructed off of 43 at the Manitowoc Road exit...That Stein's has to be the worst looking building I have seen...

I really enjoyed reading all of the recent ideas about how to make downtown a more vibrant place for all generations. One idea we kicked around in a class recently was moving the "Farmer's Market" in the summer/autumn from its current location (I think it is the corner of Monroe and Cherry) to a more central, busy location (such as Washington Street). Our teacher lives in Appleton, and he mentioned that the city blocks off College Avenue for several hours and sets up their "Farmer's Market" there. I don't usually advocate copying Appleton, but I believe that this might be a good idea to "borrow." Our Farmer's Market is currently in a parking lot on Monroe behind the Post Office. If we blocked off a section of Washington Street, or Broadway, or some similar location, I think we could kill two birds with one stone. First, we would hopefully draw more people to the Farmer's Market because it is visible to a greater number of people (especially if it has good signage/publicity). Secondly, we would draw the current customers to downtown, where they would add to the "critical mass" that so many of you have mentioned. I think it could really be a cool idea. I know there is a lot of red tape to go through, but it might not be a bad idea to mention.

Thanks for your time, sorry if I got long-winded.

I really enjoyed reading all of the recent ideas about how to make downtown a more vibrant place for all generations. One idea we kicked around in a class recently was moving the "Farmer's Market" in the summer/autumn from its current location (I think it is the corner of Monroe and Cherry) to a more central, busy location (such as Washington Street). Our teacher lives in Appleton, and he mentioned that the city blocks off College Avenue for several hours and sets up their "Farmer's Market" there. I don't usually advocate copying Appleton, but I believe that this might be a good idea to "borrow." Our Farmer's Market is currently in a parking lot on Monroe behind the Post Office. If we blocked off a section of Washington Street, or Broadway, or some similar location, I think we could kill two birds with one stone. First, we would hopefully draw more people to the Farmer's Market because it is visible to a greater number of people (especially if it has good signage/publicity). Secondly, we would draw the current customers to downtown, where they would add to the "critical mass" that so many of you have mentioned. I think it could really be a cool idea. I know there is a lot of red tape to go through, but it might not be a bad idea to mention.

Thanks for your time, sorry if I got long-winded.

Right on GB Bear... I know that the idea of moving the Farmers Market to the City Deck has been brought up. If it were properly planned I am sure it would be a hit. We need to ease the GB public into downtown. Where it sits now is by no means perfect but it is accessable. Move it down to the river where this critical mass is starting to develop and we would have neat little side event... where we can play hack. And listen to Pearl Jam?

I wonder how the vendors at the Farmers Market would feel about moving down to Wash St. Where it is now, it's convenient for them to pull into the lot, park their vehicle, set up a table and start selling. When the market closes, they pack up and drive away.

It's also convenient for customers to park in the lot at the Wisconsin Job Center and on Pine, Cherry and Quincy streets.

All the vendors are packed into a small area so you don't have to walk very far to see all they have to offer, making it easier to comparison shop.

If those conditions can be met, convenience for vendors and customers, at a location closer to the river then it could work out pretty well.

So I was wondering, is there anyway I can get more involved as a citizen during th re-development stages of downtown Green Bay. Are there any meetings I can attend or such to maybe get a complete grasp on what is going on downtown. I have a fair amount of information, and this forum is most of it, but am always eager to get more. Are there any meetings that you guys attend on a regular basis?

P.S. I ran a quick survey today at school about the teen perspective, I will update you soon on the results.

Matt, you should give Jeff Mirkes at Downtown Green Bay, Inc. a call. Or, you could contact John Vetter and see if they could use an intern. Both are nice people and very approachable.

I heard some scuttle the daily planet may be used as another bar/night club for the time being. Either the guy talking got his locations mixed up or something will be moving in there within a month or so. Hoping not true, just wondering if anyone else has heard about it. Have a good one.

I drove past the 3 story Shopko Express/Chamber building today and they had all the steel frame up already. Big difference from just a few days a go when I went past it. Also, the Farmer's Market is currently on Associated Bank's property. I wonder how much property they own next to downtown. I would love to see them build a bigger building down there. If only the Farmer's Market could be on Washington St right in front of the Bellin Building.

Thanks for the all posts guys. This forum is really starting to take off. I remember 3 years a go there was hardly any posters here and that was when there were proposals...3 years later we are still waiting for Astor Place.

Astor Place Condos - 17 Story Condo Building with Retail Space (Approved - been proposed for almost 3 years - awaiting on reaching number of presales prior to breaking ground)

http://astorplacecondos.com/home.htm

The Grand Union - 9 Story Office Building (Proposed - Was supposed to start construction Fall of 2007. Interst in reserving floors seemed promising however it seems to have waned. No new information except rumor that it is dead for now)

http://www.thegranduniongb.com/

River Center - Redevelopment of former Younkers Building (Portion under construction - the 8 Story River Center Apartment Building - Remaining space to include new Children's Museum, Restaurants, and condos. Other portion has sat dormant - not sure of that status. Long overdue of Vetter's timeline, as always)

No Website

T-Wall looking at redeveloping mall site - Planning Option

Prestige Park Towers - 2 12 story condo buildings and retail. Proposed

http://www.prestigeparktowers.com/

New 3 story ShopKo Express and Chamber Building - Under Construction at corner of Broadway and Dousman

Other projects of note:

New Aloft Hotel of Green Bay - Under construction in Ashwaubenon

http://www.starwoodhotels.com/alofthotels/property/overview/index.html?propertyID=3230

Obviously the City Deck, Ramp Retail, Site 4 have been kicked around.

Also, anyone see the new Copp's on Main Street. One of the better looking big box stores in the Green Bay area hands down...

Thanks Green Bay 4 Life!

i found that the riverfront loft condos changed their website and added a ton of pictures. really neat. anyway....check it out

www.loftsontheriver.com

Hello all! After seeing all of the new posters over the course of the last several days, I figured it was time for me to get into the action as well. I am a growing architecture enthusiast and have actually been following this site for the last couple of years. I really enjoy this thread and am very thankful to everyone who shares information, thoughts and opinions. I live in La Crosse, but have always been enamored with Green Bay. It started as a Packer fan when I was a kid (I am now 28), but like Puant, I have come to realize that their is so much more to this city. It is not only because of its rich history, but also because of the potential of what it COULD be. Every time I visit, I see so much that it has to offer (I have plenty of ideas as well) and hope that it can be built upon. A mix of 'old Green Bay' with new. If everything that is proposed (the mall, City Deck, Astor Place, The Grand Union, Ashwaubenon Blvd., Site 4, Larsen, among others) watch out. It is strange because I take a lot pride in the city and I am not even from there, though several friends and my fiance are from the area. Like Oliver DP said, I log on a couple of times a day and am disappointed when there is no news. On a side note, the Astor Place wait is driving me nuts, so I called Jen Kuo to just see if I could get any more info. She stated that Astor would get built, they are still in the process of turning reserved units into offers, and that many people are just on the fence waiting to see when ground breaking will take place before making a decision and that the Boardwalk is helping with interest. This may be just be 'coach speak,' but she also stated that her and her husband are also buying a unit there. According to her, many people have called Mr. Vetter a couple of times before making a decision, so no doubt there is a market. Now I am sure she is a very nice lady, but like previous posts had mentioned, she didn't seem to me very thorough with some of her responses. Is June 1st the end of the agreement? Lets keep the faith! Well, I apologize for the very long post. I am just excited to be here and again want to thank everyone for their contributions. Go Green Bay!:)

Welcome everyone... If only the developments could continue to grow like the people intersted in Green Bay.

After hearing all the chatter about activity, I had to take the "short-cut" home from work today. Sorry in advance for the pic quality but I didn't get out of the car.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/IMG_0002.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/IMG_0005.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/IMG_0006.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/IMG_0007.jpg

As you can see the Larson project is starting to move along, I guess we will have to see how it all plays out.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/IMG_0012.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/IMG_0013.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/IMG_0016.jpg

Still nothing happening at Port Plaza...

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/IMG_0017.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/IMG_0019.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/IMG_0021.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/IMG_0022.jpg

The ramp retail... Nothing

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/IMG_0023.jpg

I think they put up some new OSB over the busted window, but that looks like it.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/IMG_0025.jpg

St. Willi's getting a cleaning?

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/IMG_0026.jpg

Is that "stein" above the entrance new? What ever happened to the old Jillian's building?

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/IMG_0027.jpg

I did notice that there were some people working in both the Frankenthal building and the Risers builing, be great to see something pick up an Adams.

Is that the River Center going up next to the Younkers building? Sorry, I've been out a while.

Welcome Morse.

I am not surprised that non-residents would take interest and even pride in Green Bay. Particularly if you are a Packer fan within driving distance you've spent more time in Green Bay than in most any area city other than Milwaukee and perhaps Madison. And since Packer fans are so famously invested in their team (and for some of us it IS our team, literally), it is no wonder that they would also be invested in the place in which that team plays.

For many people "Up North," including the Upper Peninsula, Green Bay is the place to go when it's time to hit the "big city" for night life, Sam's Club, and Red Lobster.

People move here from other parts of the country just to be close to the Packers. And most of you have probably heard about the Aussies who sold their home, quit their jobs, and moved to GB to experience what turned out to be Brett Favre's final season in Green and Gold. I would imagine that even more young singles or older empty-nesters would consider moving here on a whim if there was a vibrant urbanity and a wide variety of residential choices downtown.

Anyway, it continues to be great to hear about the "First Time Callers, Long Time Listeners" and it's neat to hear that some of you (e.g., Morse) are rooting for us from afar.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/IMG_0017.jpg

Is it just me or does this building kind of have a City Hall/400 N. Monroe Plaza look to it... :puke: Welcome back to the age of minimal architectural creativity.

^^I'm not going to disagree with you there, 4Life. We can only hope that when this + the surrounding area is built up, it will all blend together well. . .

I recall Nativist mentioning that there will be some sort of glass enclosure along the south side of this...Is that the cinder block portion?

Also I too am very glad to see some more people posting comments here!

P.S....
Is a couple developments like this (below) too much to ask for? This is scaled about to what I would imagine Green Bay's downtown should be scaled to, given the size. OK I could do without the Starbucks, I'd rather see a local shop, but otherwise anything sort of with this size/density--people out & about even in the rain--is kinda what I'm hoping to see here...maybe not the best pic, but just a general idea...

I dont' see why something sized about liek this shouldn't / couldn't work here..

http://www.urbanphoto.net/24van/photos/14.jpg

^^I'm not going to disagree with you there, 4Life. We can only hope that when this + the surrounding area is built up, it will all blend together well. . .

I recall Nativist mentioning that there will be some sort of glass enclosure along the south side of this...Is that the cinder block portion?

Also I too am very glad to see some more people posting comments here!

I have been curious myself as to what others think of this design overall. Are you guys pleased, disappointed, nuetral in what you have seen in regards to actual construction as opposed to the renders? While the rental lofts portion isn't quite a architecturally significant as I would like, it is, after all a start. I really dig the windows and balconies on the warehouse portion and think the light added to the water tower will be a nice addition. My only gripe is that I wish about 2-3 more floors could have been added like in one of the earlier renders. A couple of more questions for all.

1.) When will the work start on the warehouse portion of the River Center? Will it coincide with the children's museum?

2.) Are there still plans for a bronze statue of Admiral Flately for the Boardwalk?

3.) Any possibility of a 'Landmark Structure' being built downtown along the river in the future? Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought there was at one time rumblings of a light house being built. That would be cool and would add a nice element to the skyline.

4.) Any chance someone could give some more description of the mall renderings or when they will be made available?

5.) Ramp retail? What are your guy's thought about the ramp? Something La Crosse did several years ago with their new parking ramp that turned out beautiful was a mixed use development. I believe the overall structure is nine stories, but it contains roughly five floors of parking, ground level retail and a four story residential complex above the parking. The parking structure is brick, with wrought iron fencing surrounding each floor. There is also a small park next to it that serves as a Farmer's Market and a nice lunch time gathering spot. This project added a lot of density on its respected lot and blends in well with La Crosse's many historic buildings. Some of its ramp retail includes off the top of my head a UPS store, lawyer offices, insurance, wine and spirits and a salon. That would have been a neat place to add some more residential downtown Green Bay.

Thanks fellas!

That is a cool pic Puant. That is what I had in mind too. I believe that Stonehouse designed a development in Madison that looks similar to the pic and was surprised that something along those lines wasn't in order for the River Center. I am sorry if this is ignorance, but were they restricted on what could be done there? From state funds, working with Vetter Denk and HGA?

[QUOTE=Morse;20506205]

2.) Are there still plans for a bronze statue of Admiral Flately for the Boardwalk?

3.) Any possibility of a 'Landmark Structure' being built downtown along the river in the future? Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought there was at one time rumblings of a light house being built. That would be cool and would add a nice element to the skyline.

[QUOTE]

On #2: I sure hope so!! It was promised, I'll be extremely pissed off if these promises are renigged. So will a lot of veterans.

On #3:
Years ago, I was kicking around my own ideas for downtown redevelopment and it occurred to me that a landmark structure along the riverfront would be appropriate. I even went as far as sketching up some of my own crazy ideas for this--I'm not sure I should post these, they're pretty crazy....only later did I get a copy of the downtown design plan from 1997 and realize they had came up with the same idea as I did. So it must be a good idea?.

Love the buildings Puant. Is that vancouver or a different homer street? It looks madison sized ><

The Stein was as good as always tonight. Love the atmosphere in that place. Well the waitress did spill rasberry sauce all over my wife's purse though. :cheers:

The bartender there didn't have enough good things to say about downtown, but yet realized people's perceptions and hated the fact that it is dead during weeknights. Seems they are doing well after reopening. It's been a good 3 years since I was there last.

That is a cool pic Puant. That is what I had in mind too. I believe that Stonehouse designed a development in Madison that looks similar to the pic and was surprised that something along those lines wasn't in order for the River Center. I am sorry if this is ignorance, but were they restricted on what could be done there? From state funds, working with Vetter Denk and HGA?

The only restriction they had was that they were cheap. :lol:

Love the buildings Puant. Is that vancouver or a different homer street? It looks madison sized ><

The Stein was as good as always tonight. Love the atmosphere in that place. Well the waitress did spill rasberry sauce all over my wife's purse though. :cheers:

The bartender there didn't have enough good things to say about downtown, but yet realized people's perceptions and hated the fact that it is dead during weeknights. Seems they are doing well after reopening. It's been a good 3 years since I was there last.

Yep, that's Vancouver (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=s6cv004r66wr&style=b&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=29217415&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1). You really know your cities!

Now I know of course there is no comparison between GB and Vancouver, but just these few buildings in this photo (a nicely designed 2-story building at the corner, with a couple nice mid-rises nearby) isn't really all that out-of-the-question for a downtown of a metro the size of GB (~200,000). I am anxious to see what T. Wall has planned....

Glad to hear the Stein is buzzing again. I keep meaning to stop in there again soon.
Too bad DT is dead on weeknights, especially in that area near the Stein where all that exists is governent offices that clear out at 5 PM...Nobody lives immediately adjacent and there's so little reason to be down there...unless of course you're on work release from that detention center adjacent to the courthouse....02.

Is it just me or does this building
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/gbsurveyor/IMG_0017.jpg
kind of have a City Hall/400 N. Monroe Plaza look to it... :puke: Welcome back to the age of minimal architectural creativity.

I went back to the plan images and pulled out this image below.

This is roughly the same perspective as the image above, of course with the context all finished...There is hope that this will turn out OK. Without the condo tower in the background though, it's not going to be the same.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/rc-cropped.jpg

Item on 5/13 RDA Agenda...

NEW BUSINESS:

4. Request from T. Wall Properties for a six-month extension on the Planning Option for mall redevelopment.

Recommendation: Approve a six-month extension.

Looks like we'll have to wait a little longer to see the T-Wall proposal. But this appears to be a good thing. If they didn't have enough positives in the first six months, I'm sure they wouldn't ask for an extension.

What they should really have on this agenda is an update on Astor, the City Deck, and River Center. The people deserve to know...

One idea we kicked around in a class recently was moving the "Farmer's Market" in the summer/autumn from its current location (I think it is the corner of Monroe and Cherry) to a more central, busy location (such as Washington Street).Probably not a good idea because this city would just find a way to screw the whole process up. For example parking, instead of allowing free parking in the ramp or lots you just know the people involved in this city would be charging and then they would be rushing to re install parking meters and they would have the meter maid running around with her chalk stick.

It would be great if they would use the 'festival' grounds more but the park Dept mobile stage is not available all of the time in the summer and this city has no intention's of making that area into a real festival grounds that could be used for more than, a beer festival or ethnic food day.

It would be great if they would use the 'festival' grounds more but the park Dept mobile stage is not available all of the time in the summer and this city has no intention's of making that area into a real festival grounds that could be used for more than, a beer festival or ethnic food day.

The big problem for using the fest grounds is it's parking capacity for bigger events. If there was some type of smaller recurring event that for example took place on the third Sunday of each month June-Sept. it would bring people downtown on a regular basis. Since there isn't one already, let's brainstorm one here on the forum. It would be something new, and possibly unique to NEW. It's one way to gradually ease people into experiencing the downtown environment.

by Navarino Rzdnt: The big problem for using the fest grounds is it's parking capacity for bigger events. If there was some type of smaller recurring event that for example took place on the third Sunday of each month June-Sept. it would bring people downtown on a regular basis. Since there isn't one already, let's brainstorm one here on the forum. It would be something new, and possibly unique to NEW. It's one way to gradually ease people into experiencing the downtown environment.

How about an event called "Downtown Daze" where we all get really wasted and then sit around and bitch incessantly about da mayor and everything else the city can't get right? We coud set up one stage where people make jokes about the impotent downtown. Another area could facilitate workshops on cynicism and/or pessimism.

Not that the whole farmers' market switch would happen anyway, but I believe the Cherry St. Ramp and the Baylake Bank lot are both free at least for the first hour on weekends and maybe more (i think farmers' markets usually take place on the weekends). And I think that the "free for the first hour" thing is true on weekdays as well. So I don't think parking would be as big of a hindrance as figuring out the logistics behind the event.

:banana:

That sounds like a great event... I really do think that it would need to emphasize that no constructive ideas or thoughts shall be generated at said event.

The big problem for using the fest grounds is it's parking capacity for bigger events.

I know that in reality this is a problem because people are so lazy, but seriously, the answer to this is for people to park in the abundance of space on the east side and walk. The city also has that trolley bus they could use as a shuttle.

How about an event called "Downtown Daze" where we all get really wasted and then sit around and bitch incessantly about da mayor and everything else the city can't get right? We coud set up one stage where people make jokes about the impotent downtown. Another area could facilitate workshops on cynicism and/or pessimism.

Awesome. I second GBSurveyor's "no constructive ideas" idea.

Not that the whole farmers' market switch would happen anyway, but I believe the Cherry St. Ramp and the Baylake Bank lot are both free at least for the first hour on weekends and maybe more (i think farmers' markets usually take place on the weekends). And I think that the "free for the first hour" thing is true on weekdays as well. So I don't think parking would be as big of a hindrance as figuring out the logistics behind the event.

All downtown public lots and ramps are free for the first hour at all times, and totally free every day after 5 or 6 pm and ALL DAY on weekends. So I agree with you, and those who would insinuate that parking would be the problem with having an event nearer the river on weekends need to get their facts straight.

Saw on jsonline and the Milwaukee Development Thread that Associated appears to have signed on to be a major anchor tenant in a development in downtown Milwaukee. Sure would be nice if they did that up here. :ohno:

Saw on jsonline and the Milwaukee Development Thread that Associated appears to have signed on to be a major anchor tenant in a development in downtown Milwaukee. Sure would be nice if they did that up here. :ohno:

Maybe one of you guys could answer this one for me, ince I don't know GB all that well... Is Associated's HQ downtown, or is it in a suburban office park? judging by the comments, I'd guess the latter, but again, I don't know....

Maybe one of you guys could answer this one for me, ince I don't know GB all that well... Is Associated's HQ downtown, or is it in a suburban office park? judging by the comments, I'd guess the latter, but again, I don't know....

Yup, it's the latter. :(

It's in Ashwaubenon at the US 41 / State 172 interchange.

Mayor Schmitt was nice enough to stop by my political science class today. (His daughter is in my class as well). He was speaking mainly on politics, campaigning, the economy of the city, and the new branding of the city. However, he opened it up for questions at the end, so I figured I might as well try to contribute something to this forum, here goes (I'm sorry if some of this is slightly repetitive, but I thought this was a fairly reputable source to quote.):

City Deck
Look for groundbreaking to begin around July 5th - right after the Shopko Fireworks. They will be constructing the main portion as well as Shopko Landing, with the piers set to be put in sometime next spring.

Children's Museum
Look for groundbreaking to begin somewhere between July and the early third quarter of the year.

Astor Place
He explained a little bit about the proposal to the class. Then, he proceeded to say that this development was a little trickier, and that the developer (Vetter) had only been able to find about 2/3 of the sales he was looking for.

T. Wall Mall Proposal
He spoke very highly of Terrence Wall and his plans to redo the street grid downtown. The mayor said he would be hesitant of any developer who did not want to do so. He said that he hoped the council would approve Mr. Wall's proposal to be granted an extension. He said that this is not an extension to buy more time looking for sales, but more of a way to have more planning time. (It sounds like Mr. Wall is being pre-emptive in asking for this extension). Supposedly Mr. Wall's proposal is founded upon three major tenants, of which he needs two to begin construction. He has already secured one, and is looking at several potential tenants for the second. Overall, he seemed very confident and excited about this.

New Carver Yacht Building
He explained to the class how big of an impact he felt this would have for Green Bay. He was very excited about a company in Green Bay being the producer of these 77-foot Marquee boats. He said something about picturing a press conference in the future, having a boat parked on the river (presumably at CityDeck) in front of a vibrant downtown with a skyline.

Tribute to Favre
He spoke about how the streets such as Tony Canadeo Run, the Reggie White street, and the Bart Starr street near the Tundra Lodge were hastily named, and perhaps were not significant enough for the impact their namesakes had on the community. He said, therefore, that, with the impact Brett Favre has had, that he ought to have a major thoroughfare named after him. I know that this has already been talked about, but the four names of streets he gave were Ashland Avenue, Military Avenue, Velp Avenue, and Mason Street. (I would think that Military would be especially hard to rename, because of the Veterans' wishes for the name to remain what it is.) He talked about the economic impact that a street with Brett Favre's name could have for the companies on the street.



In general, the mayor was very optimistic about downtown. He commented about how he and his committees were working daily to improve the area, and that he was proud of the work that has been accomplished there already. He liked that I was interested, but thought it was a little funny that I was taking notes ;) (my friend next to me kinda thought i was a nerd, too. But, oh well, I am excited about downtown so why not?) The mayor was on a limited schedule, so I didn't ask everything I wanted to. Afterwards, I was disappointed that I hadn't thought to ask about the Cherry St. ramp retail, the Grand Union, the former Larsen cannery building, or other projects downtown. But, at least I got something to contribute. I apologize for the length of this comment, and I am sorry again for any redundancy, but I thought it was relevant to hear what the leader of our city had to say.

By the way, I was wondering... Do you think he knows about our little forum here? It would be interesting to see what he thinks about it.

New plan for downtown mall site: High-rise office building

By Paul Srubas • psrubas@greenbaypressgazette.com • May 13, 2008

A high-rise office building, eight to 10 stories tall with stores and restaurants in the first floor, is part of the plan for replacing the old Washington Commons mall in downtown Green Bay.
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If all goes well, construction could begin next year, with occupancy taking place in 2010, said Sean Robbins, vice president of development for T. Wall Properties of Middleton.

T. Wall holds the planning option for the mall and has promised a plan that would demolish most or all of the mall, re-establish the street grid system and replace the structures.

Robbins said the high-rise building would be Phase I of the project, to be located just west of the former J.C. Penney’s store.

Phase II probably would be a mid-rise building, but it and whatever the company decided for Phase III are too far into the future to be discussed in detail, Robbins said.

Robbins said his company has been courting companies to be tenants in the offices and stores and restaurants to occupy the retail space on the first floor. It’s also done preliminary planning on demolition and other issues of preparation.

Robbins appeared before the city’s Redevelopment Authority to ask for a six-month extension on T. Wall’s planning option. The company paid $10,000 for its six-month planning option in November and is committed enough to the project to want an extension, Robbins said.

He told the authority the company would use the time to firm up demolition plans, work with the city on zoning and entitlement processes and solidify deals with potential tenants.

If progress continues the way it has so far, groundbreaking could be in 2009, he told the authority.

The authority granted the six-month extension for another $10,000.

The authority accepted ownership of the mall from the city early this year. The city acquired it last year as a result of a three-way court settlement with Development Associates and lender Baylake Bank.

The mall closed in the winter of 2006.

Robbins has said T. Wall’s project would complement Vetter Denk Architect’s projects under way at and near the old Younkers store site. T. Wall would avoid building condominiums or apartments on any of the five-acre mall site.

A couple quick notes. First the Mayor has to be somewhat optimistic of potential downtown development. This is his baby, his legacy so to speak. It would be hard for him to be negative. Don't get me wrong, he may be on the level, but if there were failures going on behind the scenes - do you think he would be up front with us?

Wasn't it said that the City Deck was tied to TIF money generated from developments on the waterfront? Specifically Astor? Among other contributions, but if no Astor is there really a City Deck? Nice to walk along the waterfront in front of a Younkers building that is right now a total eyesore. Daily Planet, Younkers, the mall - I mean great plans for redevelopment but they are the stigma that makes Green Bay look like it is 2nd class...

About T-Wall. Good news. I guess what is better - having an empty mall downtown that is acting as a deterrent to future development or a potential building that leads to the elimination of that crappy structure and the reinstatement of the street grid. Maybe we need T-Wall and Vetter to partner in these projects. Just a thought.

Beargb-
Great post, thanks for getting the scoop on these things!
I have some reactions to the infomration provided by the mayor today-

Favre Street
I'm not sure I'd want to see any of the streets the mayor suggested renamed for Favre...As much as I liked Brett and all..How about just renaming Gross Ave (the Green Bay extension of Holmgren Way) for Favre? Or else how about Ridge Rd? Maybe the city could work with Ashwaubenon to get the entire length of Ridge Rd renamed for Favre...That's a fairly major street, but more importantly it's directly adjacent to the stadium.

T Wall
What we need desperately are tenants WANTING to move into downtown. Really a shame the city didn't get started on this stuff years ago when the economy was still strong. Why is GB always so far behind the curve on everything? So many missed opportunities...while other cities rebuilt their downtowns, we languished and frittered around, trying desperately to keep that old mall going even though it was clear by the late 1990's it was clearly going into the shitter... Well anyway, at least something is being discussed as for future plans.

Also--Why NOT include some residential in the T Wall / Mall site area? How about a few upper unit apartments? It's one way to keep life in the area even after offices & stores close--people moving about the street to their apartments or whatever (this was instilled in me after reading Jane Jacobs). I suppose there was some political pressure injected here to keep away from competing with the other residential interests, namely Astor, but I'm just guessing. I wouldn't rule out the idea of some loft apartments or something. Make it truly mixed use.

CityDeck
I thought this thing was supposed to be under construction already. More delays don't look good for any of the developments downtown

4Life you make some good points. More languishing. Meanwhile, though, the Broadway development across the river really seems to be coming along quickly, and that's a HUGE site. Why is the east side taking so long to get moving?

Beargb, no need to apologize for long posts, as you can see I'm most guilty of blathering. This isn't nearly as polished or succinct as your posts are. Keep up the good work. All of you. THis is a great message board!

How about an event called "Downtown Daze" where we all get really wasted and then sit around and bitch incessantly about da mayor and everything else the city can't get right? We coud set up one stage where people make jokes about the impotent downtown. Another area could facilitate workshops on cynicism and/or pessimism.
Well, I don't know what you consider incessant bitching, but I merely pointed out that parking at the festival grounds can be seen by some as a deterrent to attending events held there. And regarding The Farmer's Market, in my post on that subject I just stated concerns that both the vendors and attendees may have with a downtown location. I clearly stated that if circumstances prevailed to make the eventful as successful as it is now, then it "could do pretty well."

As for constructive ideas, I thought was constructive enough to recommend "If there was some type of smaller recurring event that for example took place on the third Sunday of each month June-Sept. it would bring people downtown on a regular basis."

Navarino,
I was just being facetious/sarcastic about the attitude of many others in this city. For example, here are some of the comments posted in the P-G article (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080513/GPG03/80513144/1978)about the T. Wall mall site article:

Hmmm-If you notice no selling price was mentioned,tax cuts,tif districts-and to rebuild the street grid-give me a break.Why won't the city talk about this caper or is SCHMIDTT still licking his wounds from his Younkers deal.How much will he make off this folley and what is it going to cost us!! I smell another RAT.
~roadrunners

-and-

is the council going to double check the contract after the lawyers are done with it this time? wait..... why don't we just stop giving money away?
~bagga

It's these kinds of all-too-prevalent attitudes in Green Bay that prompted me to say what I said when I replied to your comment. I meant nothing against you, I think you had a good idea, actually. So no worries!

Couple thoughts/comments. Actually first a question. It's hard for me to visualize the mall site so I'm not real clear on where T.Wall is planning on putting his phase I building. It says west of the JCP building. JCP is the one that faces Main, across from the convention center, correct? So this building will be on Main and behind Baylake Bank? Seems a little blocked from the rest of downtown but maybe I just can't envision how the reinstated street grid will reconfigure that area. Being able to see a render of that building would make me a happy man.

Also, I'm a little surprised that they'd go 10 stories. Every attempt at a building 9 stories and up seems to stall in the planning stages. I guess maybe developers shoot big to generate interest but after the numerous attempts at a tall building in downtown, I would almost prefer a proposed 4-6 story building instead. It just seems more feasible. Plus if they go 10 in phase I, how many businesses will be left to target for the shorter phase II building. The faster the black hole that is the mall gets cleared out of the way and a couple standard office/retail buildings take its place, the better for all concerned (especially John Vetter).

And I'm also surprised that they made it clear that there would be no residential on that entire mall site. So once Astor Place either disappears or is built and is filled past a certain capacity will we see some residential infused into T.Wall's project? I'm assuming that'll be the case.

Thanks for the info, GBBear. Nice post. Unless I'm reading too much into Schmitt's comments on Astor Place, he doesn't sound very confident in that project getting off the ground. And it's interesting to me that he was so up on Carver Boat moving near downtown. I guess every little bit helps.

Couple thoughts/comments. Actually first a question. It's hard for me to visualize the mall site so I'm not real clear on where T.Wall is planning on putting his phase I building. It says west of the JCP building. JCP is the one that faces Main, across from the convention center, correct? So this building will be on Main and behind Baylake Bank? Seems a little blocked from the rest of downtown but maybe I just can't envision how the reinstated street grid will reconfigure that area. Being able to see a render of that building would make me a happy man.

If one would extend Adams Street through the mall to Main Street, just north of the Port Plaza Tower and south of the Parking Ramp there is an area for a building behind JCPenney. A 10 story building would really create a wall of buildings in this area because that site would be longer north/south than it would be east/west. Kind of cool to envision.

I guess those comments are those that think the mall is generating the city tax base and all development that will one day benefit the city should be all private funded. They must work at Wal-Mart. No offense to those that work at Wal-Mart.

I don't mean to draw away from the great conversation going on. But I would like to put a few more pennies in the jar about the teen perspective in Green Bay. I took a survey at my High School, mainly seniors, a few juniors and sophomores. The survey wasn't structured to rule out certain variables, I just wanted to get a quick tally on what it was students are doing, and what they want to see in Green Bay. The results follow (top three answers only):

1. What are the top five normal activities you find yourself doing in a normal day?

1-Drink/Smoke/Party (not surprising as NBC26 just reiterated the point that we are the drunkest state in a report monday)
2-Go to Mall/Shopping
3-Travel to Milwaukee/Appleton

Other highly answered notables were: Strip Clubs and Think About Good Things To Do

2. What are five things you would like to see developed for the teen market?

1-More Stores/Better Shopping
2-Dry Night Club
3-Better Concerts/Venues for teens

Notable: Better sports venues and a sonic (they're tired of the commercials)

Now, do understand the survey was mainly taken by seniors who are on a little senior slide, so they may have not taken it very seriously, but none the less I do think that the numbers present a problem for Green Bay and it's marketing to the youth/teens of the area.

By the way, I was wondering... Do you think he knows about our little forum here? It would be interesting to see what he thinks about it.

I'm pretty sure he knows about it, but doubt he reads it. I'd suppose of the various forums relating to Green Bay, this is one that he'd probably agree with pretty regularly. Anyway, awesome reporting, good info, thanks!

Wasn't it said that the City Deck was tied to TIF money generated from developments on the waterfront? Specifically Astor? Among other contributions, but if no Astor is there really a City Deck? Nice to walk along the waterfront in front of a Younkers building that is right now a total eyesore.

Yes, the City Deck is reliant for a good portion of it's funding on TIF, and if that doesn't come, it will be delayed. For this year, the biggest portion of what they'll be doing is the upland portion, which because it doesn't have to be built out over the water is cheaper per sq/ft. And work on River Center is taking place, and once that's done it will make a huge impact on the riverfront and IMO not be an eyesore at all.

I'm not sure I'd want to see any of the streets the mayor suggested renamed for Favre...

I tend to agree. That's said, and what I'm about to say is pure speculation based upon the State of the City address, but I think what the Mayor is trying to do is use the Favre naming to drum up support for major improvements to a Green Bay thoroughfare, particularly Ashland Ave. It'd be a pretty clever idea actually, use the statewide love of Favre to gain support for significant state funding for a project that without the Favre mystique attached may get little support. I don't think it's about just naming a street for it's own sake, it's for using the renaming as a tool to improve a street more related to economic growth in the city than, say, Ridge (most residential in Green Bay).

Why is GB always so far behind the curve on everything? So many missed opportunities...while other cities rebuilt their downtowns, we languished and frittered around, trying desperately to keep that old mall going even though it was clear by the late 1990's it was clearly going into the shitter...

Yeah, it sucks, but what's passed is passed. There are a many cities that are much worse off than we are too. We have construction at Larsen Canning and River Center going on right now, two major projects at a time when it would be easy to see why no projects could be happening. I like everything to be done yesterday as much as anyone else, and there have been a lot of stupid, shortsighted decisions made, but there's a whole lot to be optimistic about.

Thanks for the info, GBBear. Nice post. Unless I'm reading too much into Schmitt's comments on Astor Place, he doesn't sound very confident in that project getting off the ground. And it's interesting to me that he was so up on Carver Boat moving near downtown. I guess every little bit helps.

Astor has been and continues to be a tough project. Not easy selling residential these days. Still, I remain optimistic that some form of the project will get done, even if on a somewhat smaller scale. Regarding Carver, he should be so up on it, those are good jobs, and jobs are the engine of everything that gets done in a city.

I took a survey at my High School, mainly seniors, a few juniors and sophomores. The survey wasn't structured to rule out certain variables, I just wanted to get a quick tally on what it was students are doing, and what they want to see in Green Bay.

Awesome info! I know Jeff Mirkes of DGBI reads this thread, so at the very least that's one person of influence that I know will have seen this, and will find it interesting. Thanks!

Just one more thought I had on this.

...Now, I know Brett has been a good guy and all, and I'd hardly expect anything like this to happen, but...

Let's just say we rename a major thoroughfare like Ashland Ave to Brett Favre Boulevard. Now let's say, 10 years from now Brett ends up hacking a woman and man to death while wearing some gloves that are slightly too small for him. THen what? I can just imagine the WBAY chopper following the white Bronco driven by Mark Chmura down Mason St (after it leaves the house with the hot tub full of 15-year-old girls).

Now, Brett's been a good guy and all.....But, people seemed to think OJ was a 'good guy' too. Maybe we shoudln't just rush to do this. I don't know that the renaming Ashland Ave to "Favre Rue" or whatever is really going to make much of a difference as far as marketing goes. What are the other benefits here? Favre already has a street (Brett Favre Pass); he's going to get his recognition when his number is retired, he's going the HOF, sportsman of the millenium, etc etc etc. Does he really need more?

OK now maybe you see this as Favre hating. I'm just throwing this out there. Maybe this isn't really so much 'development news' and belongs on my blog instead....I dunno. Anyone care to respond?

P.S.....

If the Favre Rd thing above isn't worth getting excited about, how's this:
I saw people working on the old Reiser's Diamond Vault building downtown on Adams St again today! I know GB Surveyor or someone else had also mentioned this a few days ago, but it's exciting nonetheless that something really seems to be happening here! I recall this was going to be some sort of steakhouse -type restaurant or something? Will they name it Chewy's? Wait, no probably not...

I totally agree with your comments about naming a street after Favre. It's kind of silly considering all the other serious accomplishments he has under his belt. I don't think he personally cares and he does already have a street named after him. I also don't think his name on a street will improve businesses or recognition in the city. The Packers already do that to the city as a whole.

I like all the updates we've been getting. I feel good about the Wall action, bummed that Astor has faded.

Here in St. Paul, we're dealing with our own version of Astor. The 33 floor Penfield condos have been on the drawing board for years and groundbreaking keeps getting pushed because of slow sales. It's a cool looking building that would be fun to have built, but it's just not happening even in this large metro area. So Green Bay is definitely not alone in its struggles. I don't know if that makes any of us feel better though.

At least there is action going on in Green Bay, I don't recall this much potential on deck in the last 20 years. This is definitely the beginning of a great phase in GB's development. Things will come around.

Regarding Favre, I agree, save renaming streets for dead people who can't screw up anything and taint their image. However, as I said, if renaming the street helped get millions of dollars in funding for major physical improvements to the street, then it might be worth it. My suspicion is that this is what the Mayor is up to. Otherwise, the thing to do is probably to take a cue from Chicago (and other cities). Walk down many major streets in Chicago and you'll see brown street signs for "Honorary John Doe St." all over. The real name of the street doesn't change, but they still get to honor whoever. This saves the businesses from having to change their address, and if the person being honored does something to damage their reputation, it's a lot easier to remove the honorary designation.

Wonder what this means?

• The RDA was notified that a special meeting may be called the last week of May to review the status of the Astor Place Tower project.

We may have an answer, or may have another pushed back groundbreaking, or it may be dead...

Hmmm, should eb interesting.

I wonder what prompted this meeting.... Was it a city council or RDA member who put this on the agenda? Or did Vetter volunteer to do this w/o pressure?

With the housing market barely registering a pulse, i'm not very optimistic that this is good news. My only hope all along was that this is such a unique niche in the GB market, incomparable to anything else around here, that it might actually sell despite the downturn. But..wishful thinking perhaps? We shall see. Thanks for posting this.

^^ Isn't the latest extension of the developers agreement up soon? My guess is that there'd be some new news coming one way or another. I did hear the first bit of good news about housing in some time today though, seems new housing starts were higher than expected for the first quarter (though still down from a year ago).

^^ Isn't the latest extension of the developers agreement up soon?

:lol:Sorry, "Latest Extension" for some reason or another struck me funny. Yup, let's lock in for another year.

i got this information on Bidclerk.com. i see the reason for the 6 month extension. the first 6 months has probably to see if there was a market. well, seeing how they have determined that much, now they are getting budget numbers to see if there plan is feasible. the only problem with this happening now is that steel and copper (two commodities that make up a large portion of new construction) are high then a kite right now. we shall see.

http://www.bidclerk.com/project.681282.html

I wonder what prompted this meeting.... Was it a city council or RDA member who put this on the agenda? Or did Vetter volunteer to do this w/o pressure?

With the housing market barely registering a pulse, i'm not very optimistic that this is good news. My only hope all along was that this is such a unique niche in the GB market, incomparable to anything else around here, that it might actually sell despite the downturn. But..wishful thinking perhaps? We shall see. Thanks for posting this.

Haven't been on the board in a couple of days, but the special meeting is very interesting. I thought that I read that June 1st was the timeline for the extension, so one would assume that it was a board member (City Council/RDA) wanting an answer. This building is such a statement in the direction that Green Bay is heading and the potential that it has. The hard part is that it sounds as if there are several prospective buyers on the fence wanting to see a shovel in the ground before making a commitment. It is so close that I am hoping beyond hope that it is not dead. Twelve stories would be great at this point. If there is that much interest in downtown living, get Astor built at twelve and start developing some infill projects (ala the Pallidian in Wausau). Create some much needed density (putting an end to the sea of asphalt dedicated to parking)with various developers and different styles to make for interesting architecture.

Speaking of 'special meetings,' did anyone hear anymore on the possibility of one for Direct Development and Site 4 or Prestige Towers?

From the PG this morning...

A park honoring World War II flying ace Admiral James Flatley may find a new home upstream.
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Flatley Park was displaced by downtown redevelopment, but the Green Bay Parks Committee this week approved building a new park farther south along the Fox River.

The open space behind the Green Bay Area Chamber of Commerce, 400 S. Washington St., would be the new location, if the City Council approves it Tuesday. The council meets at 7 p.m. in the council chambers of City Hall, 100 N. Jefferson St.

The United Patriotic Society has been working with the city for the new location.

The chamber is bound for a new location at the Smet Construction project at Broadway and Dousman Street. The De Pere-based Smet plans to buy the old building, a former railroad depot, but hasn't announced long-term plans for it.

If a new business moves in, an agreement would be needed over parking space, but the United Patriotic Society told the committee parking would be an issue for the organization only on the Memorial Day holidays.

The organization is coordinating efforts to erect a statue of Flatley at the site, and a sign and obelisk at the original park have been preserved and would be moved there, planning director Rob Strong said.

The original park was near the eastern foot of the Ray Nitschke Memorial Bridge. The park space is the site for the Astor Place Condominiums and River Center. The city's $12 million City Deck boardwalk will also be in the area.

Flatley, born in Green Bay in 1906, was an aviator and tactician. He received numerous medals and commendations for his actions in World War II.