bartles53
I'll try and describe the t-wall property as best as I can for you. Adams street will re-connect to main and a new street that connects Adams and Washington called Flatley Drive. Flatley Drive starts at city deck and runs between river center and Astor place straight to Adams. The first building of the project will be a 8-10 story art deco style building on the east side of adams directly behind port plaza towers. Phase two will be a 6-story muiti use building on Flatley Dr facing north towards the Days Inn, with a 6 floor parking ramp behind the building. Phase three an 8-story tower multi use on the north corner of Flatley Dr and Adams just east of the days inn. The plan also shows all the development connected be sky-walks

You're the man, pgrimmer. Thanks!

Skywalks: the bane of Danillo's existence. And I must say, Danillo's reasoning for being anti-skywalk makes a lot of sense. But I guess when a developer is willing to put a lot of money towards an area that's not very popular with developers these days, they can develop how best they see fit.

One other point. This doesn't exactly seem like the organic type of development that was envisioned for the mall site. Does anyone think this is a little too ambitious? That having the entire mall area replaced with large structures maybe is not exactly what the doctor ordered? I guess any way to get people downtown is a bonus but it seems a little too structured or something. And with 3 buildings between 6 & 10 stories, this looks to me like more of a 30 year project. Either way, I'm sure it'll look great and it'll instantly liven up that area. Just being picky. I'm curious what the rest of the fellows on this board think.

I love the idea of the T. Wall towers, if they can actually fill them, which we know right now they can't. Those things might fly right now in Madison, which has a better economy due to the recession-resistant government and higher education sectors. But not here right now.

I also will be nitpicky with something -- Flatley "Drive". It's a minor thing, but if the city wants downtown to be urban, then streets should not be "drives" -- that sounds like a winding suburban road, not a vital street in the heart of downtown.

Ha ha. I'm not so much anti-skywalk as I am anti-skywalk network. For instance, the walk between the Main St. Ramp and the KI center makes a lot of sense. What I don't want is a system where you can practically get from one side of the downtown to the other without stepping outside.

The plan sounds pretty good. I'd rather see a portion left for multiple, smaller scale developments, but I've never really thought that was going to happen. Hopefully the art-deco style buildings will to the style justice.

PGRimmer- thank you for describing the plans to us. I just remember you recently saying that the leases for one building were already completely signed and yet now they are looking for an extension. Maybe it isnt economically viable for them to demo the whole mall site for just one building for now, but I would have thought they could have at least started some work this summer already.

Questions about the development
1- Obviously three buildings wont fill the entire mall site, but how big of a footprint are these leaving? Somewhere between the size of the Bellin Building and the Port Plaza Towers?

2- Since they are building a six story ramp for there development and they are reconnecting Adams to Main St. are they tearing down the Main St. ramp or are they just opening it up for pedestrian traffic?

Hi all,
I was just trying to get a handle on where all of this stuff is going so I pulled out my handy ol' SketchUp model and started playing around, trying to sketch in the footprints as described by pgrimmer.

I may be confused about a couple things here...Did I get the footprints in right?

What goes into the blue areas on my model here? Seems like there's room for more development besides the T Wall stuff.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/20080521TWallMallSitefootprintgu-1.jpg

P.S. I didn't want to upset Danillo too much so I didn't include any skywalks.

P.S. I didn't want to upset Danillo too much so I didn't include any skywalks. Hahahahahaha.

Very cool, Mr. Puant. Much appreciated. My brain wasn't even close to being able to put everything in the right spot. Perhaps the blue areas will be parceled off and sold to other developers as the land becomes more valuable. I could see a very cool apartment complex going in on the southwest corner of Flatley and Adams. Could be a winner being that it's surrounded by 3 6-10 story office buildings. That's going to be a great corner as long as the buildings include ground floor retail.

Puant's model has me wondering (and I apologize if this has been brought up before), do you think putting that parking structure directly behind Baylake Bank was done with the intention of converting their parking lot to open space in the future? I realize the converting of that space to a park had previously been brought up on this board but the addition of this parking structure directly behind that building makes it more feasible. I recall Danillo stating at one point that the bank was perhaps promised a certain number of dedicated parking spots in front of the building. Maybe this garage will allow for, say, one row of slanted parking spots. In reality, how many people are in a bank at any one time?

I also think the opening of Adams and the addition of Flatley will bring many, many more people past the Northland Hotel on a regular basis. If T.Wall's plan goes through I just can't see that building being used for its current purpose. That land will be too valuable and that corner too prominent. Someone will almost definitely want to convert that to a moneymaker. It'll be interesting to see although I'll probably be an old man before all of this happens.

Skyways are useful when you're trying to entice workers and convention goers to a city where it's freezing cold 6 months of the year.

In a skyway city, a whole world can be created on the 3rd level of downtown. The street front shops give way to the skyway shops because that's where everyone spends their lunch breaks in the winter. It's where people stop on the way to and from work year-round. It's where tourists wander around looking for something to do.

I'm not sure if Green Bay deals in that market so much that it is worth the expense. Where would all of these people take the skyways to? They would need to be connected to shopping, restaurants, hotels, and parking ramps to make them a useful resource.

I agree with the Flatley Dr. comment too. Downtown needs streets and avenues.

Puant,

It is my understanding that Phase 1 will go from the Port Plaza Towers to the Main Street Ramp. Flatley Drive will not go furtehr east than Adams Street. In addition, I believe Phase II which includes the ramp and building will take up the entire area behind Baylake.

Now I am as thrilled as the next guy that they are developing this, but based on what you've all been saying, they are planning on filling the entire site with just three buildings and a parking ramp. I would much rather have them set it up like Puant has in his drawing.

This leaves it open for future development and restores more of the street grid. If they are set on having phase one be a building of its current size but be two blocks long, I would rather see them just build on that one corner, but maybe go up an additional 5 or 6 stories. This is the part of downtown were we could put some taller buildings and not impair views of the river.

Plus- seeing several buildings of different sizes and shapes lining the streets is one of the things that makes a downtown special. If they just build one giant building in phase one there will be nothing breaking up the sidewalk for 2 blocks. Granted a building is better than a surface parking lot, but it just seems like they are putting up a giant warehouse or factory and I cant see how a 2 block long building can be aesthetically pleasing.

Finally, they could easily fill 6-10 story buildings that had a smaller footprint a lot quicker. and also offer a lot more in each of these buildings (office, retail, housing) They could have different income level housing in a few buildings and cheap office and expensive office space in another. I guess I am happy this might actually get developed, and other than pgrimmer none of us have seen these plans, I just wish it was more structures and not just three giant warehouse type buildings. Sorry for the long post, having a bad day and just had to vent somehow.

All I am saying is that is what I have heard from someone who has actually seen the plans. One has to remember that a parking ramp (maybe not on the scale as Cherry Street) takes up a lot of space. In addition taller skinny buildings with little floor area are less attractive to larger tenants who want to be located mostly on one or two floors.

Paunt, good job on the visual it is very close. Flatley ends at adams, Phase 2 building runs from washington to adams with the ramp behind as well. Phase 1 building turn, so that the center of the building looks down Flatley. The area next to it between Phase 1 and the old ramp was green space and some parking. Everthing else is dead on. JC Penny building is not part of the T-Wall plan.

From WBAY.com

Lighting to be Installed on Leo Frigo Bridge

Updated: May 23, 2008 02:16 PM CDT

Freeway lights are being installed on the Leo Frigo Memorial Bridge on Interstate 43 in Green Bay.

Installation begins next week, which will result in lane closures for the next couple of weeks.

The Wisconsin Department of Transportation says northbound lanes will be restricted on the bridge from 9 A.M. to 2 P.M. Wednesday through Friday, May 28-30. The left-most lane will be closed from Webster Avenue to Atkinson Drive.

The next week, the passing lanes on both northbound and southbound sides of the bridge will be closed from 9 A.M. to 2 P.M. Monday through Thursday, June 2-5.

The DOT says the freeway lighting system was partially funded by a federal port security grant.

It is a start. Maybe some lights on the blue portion would be cool as well.

From WBAY.com



It is a start. Maybe some lights on the blue portion would be cool as well.

U guys can thank me later..it was difficult but I finally got the DOT to do it amongst help from "other friends." They said that they were not going to do it the 1st try, but pressure sure seemed to help the 2nd round. I am working right now on Oneida/Pilgrim St intersection right now too.

Regarding the Leo Frigo Bridge. I always thought it would be cool if they painted the arches to look like cheese, same color as the foam chesse heads!

Wasn't Milwaukee's bridge painted orange years ago?

The bridge is high profile and you can see it from all over the city so it will pop out of the night sky pretty nicely now.

I think freeway lighting is a sharp move everywhere it passes through populated territory. Maybe from Velp to Oneida on 41 is the only spot that makes sense.

Is 172 all lit up already?

Wasn't Milwaukee's bridge painted orange years ago?

The bridge is high profile and you can see it from all over the city so it will pop out of the night sky pretty nicely now.

I think freeway lighting is a sharp move everywhere it passes through populated territory. Maybe from Velp to Oneida on 41 is the only spot that makes sense.

Is 172 all lit up already?

Unforunately not yet. 41, 43, and 172 are not currently lit up. When it comes to lighting the freeways around here and in the Fox Valley the govts are too cheap to do this. I go to any other state, as well as little South Dakota they light up all the urban sections of the highways. I think when Autobahn 41 is expanded you will see lighting along the highway as it will be a major upgrade.

Leo Frigo Bridge

This was the last I heard about the lighting, back in January. They got it done!!!! Now I think us posters have some influence here. http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/mins_agd/minutes/20080108MN1674.html

Yea, WisDOT has never been one to install lighting on freeways ANYWHERE statewide, although I do seem to recall a couple of interchanges with some lighting in the western part of the state. The freeway lights in metro Milwaukee and on the Madison Beltline are paid for by the local and county governments.

And yes, quite a few other states (ie, Illinois) do have lighting at many of their middle-of-nowhere rural interstate and compatible highway interchanges, too. Freeway lighting is one thing that IDOT does that favorably impresses me.

I also hope and pray that WisDOT, or SOMEONE, will install lighting on the freeways here in the Appleton area, at least on WI 441 and on the six-lane part of US 41.

Mike

Its funny too because I once heard that Wisconsin has a higher # of streetlights per resident than any other state in the country. They must be all on city streets.

I've noticed a few streetlight "bases" on a few freeways around Appleton. Hopefully the 41-441 rework and the new 441 bridge will include streetlights. Here in Madison we don't have streetlights on our freeways either, and the typical response is that despite wanting to put in lights, the project usually runs out of money before lights are ever installed.

Well again, I recall that the city analyzed the energy costs of lighting the downtown bridges and it was very significant--like $10,000 or more per year (I wish I could remember). Significant enough to decide only to light the bridges on weekends & special events.
I'm all for lighting these things but it has to make economic & environmental sense.

So since some of you seem "in the know" on this stuff, was a more creative option ever considered for the I-43 lights, such as solar or small wind turbine and energy-efficient lights like LEDs? Sure there will be some more capital outlay costs but in the end the energy savings could outweigh. Plus I don't think it would hurt our image as a city.
Take for example this bridge (http://www.ledtronics.com/product_news/rea_article_070105.htm) in California.

Now I know the big old coal fired generating plant (Pulliam) is right next door and they'd rather just power these lights up with as much coal as they can...but it's time to move beyond the status quo on these things, even these little things, I think. Not tryin' to be preachy here, just my humble $0.02. SOmetimes I don't think we're creative enough as a society when it comes to these things.....

I always thought bridge lighting was one of the easiest ways possible to improve a rivertown's image. And with modern lighting techolongy, the light can be lit with a fraction of the cost as before. That doesn't even factor in the added safety that comes with better lighting.

I do not know specifics as to the type of lighting they will use. From what I understand the whole length of the bridge will be lit up, not just the top architectural portion. I have been out of the loop since Jan when they proposed it. About time that they lit this bridge up. Think of the number of people that have or almost lost their life in the multiple accidents on top of this bridge. I know in the early 90's there were at least 50 cars piled up in that accident alone. When the bridge was built it was all ready to install lights years a go, but they didn't have the money. The 2nd time I ran over something on that bridge last year it really pissed me off. I rarely take this bridge, mainly because of bad driving experiences. I have lost 2 tires in 2 separate incidents where I ran over a mattress and also someone's metal bumper at night. That is one of the problems I have with not lighting up freeways at night. Sometimes you cannot see and I know several people have also been in the same situation running over things and way worse, people walking along the hwy. This bridge is a death trap when visibility is diminished.

Looks like the Grand Union sign downtown came down.

^^I noticed the larger part of the Grand Union sign (the part with the rendered image of the building) was down, but as of yesterday at least, a smaller sign advertising the development was still there. A week or two ago, I saw that the larger sign was getting cracked and kind of falling apart, and I thought perhaps the high winds we had last week finally did it in. At least that's my optimistic thinking....Could very well be the whole project is just plain dead.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
T Wall Site
I am thinking more about the T Wall plans as I understand them. I am certainly excited about it, because anything is better than that vacant mall we have there now, but I have some more thougts on this. Some may be repeat, sorry.

Does the T Wall thing really have to be just a few large buildings and another mega parking ramp? Couldnt' there be some room left for the smaller parcels, so other developers can come in and build a bit more variety in?

Just to kind of illustrate my thoughts here. Below is an image of the T. Wall site (aka the mall site) in about 1950. I'd like to discuss it a little bit. But before I start: Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying we should turn back the clock and rebuild it just like this! When I use these images and blog about them, it's not just nostalgia that I'm getting all warm and fuzzy about (how could it be nostalgia, I wasn't even born until 1972?). No, the reason I like to study these things is just simply to get a better understanding of what works and what doesn't in terms of city and building design. Sure, the "downtown of yore" is also just plain and simple insteresting in terms of community history, but it's way more than this.

That said...On to my thoughts on the basic design: If you look at this image of the downtown "mall site" (pre-mall) you see there is just a huge number of parcels and buildings all well connected by many streets and alleys (There had also been a trolley running here until the late 1940s just before this picture was taken). Sure, this may not be beautiful in everyone's eyes, surely it wasn't perfect ( the city had 'turned its back' on the Fox River waterfront, and I'm sure some of the buildings lacked modern amenities) but at the same time it had some other things going for it. Some of the pluses of this old downtown included the incredible and interesting mix of building types, designs, ages, and uses.

With such a large number of buildings of different sizes, designs and age, a number of small businesses could afford to be here. Usually the older or smaller buildings are not nearly as high in rent as new higher-class buildings. T. Wall is about to propose just a few large buildings. Not that having large class-A space is bad (after all, it seems to be what's in demand) but I think there should be room for smaller buildings as well, as in this photo. That way more businesses can afford to be here, making for an overall larger mix of uses. A whole bunch of small buildings can grow more organically and be designed for more purposes if there is room for some of the smaller parcels left in the mix. I think this concept is very important, and I hope T. Wall doesn't miss this and "leave out the little people" or those with less capital for facilities. Let him build big (it's exciting and apparently in demand), but don't push out the smaller in the process. The larger Class A spaces will create more of a market for smaller service-oriented buildings too.

Other interesting stuff I think about when I look at this photo is that the place started to really have a parking problem because the trolleys were shut down just a few years before this photo was taken. There is something about trolleys that people seem to like riding them and almost always choose them over buses. What it is I don't know-again I don't think it's just nostalgia, I think it's more than that. But since this post is long I'll leave that for later.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/1950sDowntownEnlarged.jpg

I'd like to wrap this up with one final quote that I like. It has to do with design and people getting freaked out about whether design --or this whole downtown discussion--is based on simple nostalgia or if there is more to it than that:

Proportion, scale, form have timeless design, not to be confused with "style" and "taste":
"Physically, emotionally, intellectually, any change in (human) nature is so gradual as to be inconsequential in respect to the design of a specific place....the Campidoglio's perfection of spatial balance and scale--as correct today as in the sixteenth century because man's perceptions of space and scale have not changed. Proportion, scale, form, rhythm, value--these are timeless qualities of design, not to be confused with "style" and "taste" which vary in the utmost". Jere Stuart French, Urban Space: A Brief History of the City Square, 2nd ed. Published 1983.

Well there you have it. I'm done resting up from the yardwork around my nice little suburban house. Back to it!

Puant, you always bring up great discussion points :) I've been throwing a few thoughts around and some of them play into the points you made above so now seems like a good time to discuss.

1) Size of development - Seems to be one of the biggest topics of discussion around here. While I think it would be great to leave a considerable amount of open space for smaller businesses, I don't think we should expect (or want) T. Wall or any other larger developer to scale back their project for this reason. Contrarily, I think the only way we are going to get people downtown is to build larger scale projects. I know this is not how DT grew back in the 50's, but times have changed. DT has a relatively negative image and if we want change in the next few years the only way to make people see what DT has to offer is to "force" them to go down there. Large corporate settings will do this and provide the foot traffic that smaller retail shops rely on. It also seems like we are constantly talking about a number of open parcels or closed buildings that could house the smaller shops once DT begins to pick up. I may be in the minority here, but I believe we NEED big business DT if we want to see changes.

2) Trollies - There are a few main differences between trollies and buses. In most cases, trollies tend to run shorter routes than buses. With DT GB being so small right now, there really isn't a need for trollies since you can walk pretty much anywhere within 5-10 minutes. Now, with more development on both sides of the river I think there could be a desire for them in the future. Also, trollies just seem to be more friendly. The people on them are usually folks going for a quick jaunt to their next stop, often times shoppers, vacationers, etc. Buses seem to have a negative perception around here (and in many other cities) and some people just don't feel comfortable on them.

3) Advertisement - Advertisement for downtown GB seems horrible and nearly non-existent. I know there is a branding initiative going on to promote GB's waterways and shed the Packer image, but it seems this is mostly targeted at other states. Thankfully, I have seen a few runs in the PG and The Business News, which means at least a few media outlets are aware of it and getting the news out to the public. Another idea would be to promote the city on the local cable channel (channel 4 on Time Warner??). I have seen other cities have "City Channels" and actually find them very interesting. Topics include short segments on local development, business news, as well as interviews with the Mayor, Police Chief, Director of Libraries, etc. Just something a little more enticing where people could go to learn about what is going on in their town. On that thought, why not have the city or some of the business groups contact the local news stations to do a story on them.

4) Parking Garages - I think the main problem with the parking downtown is that nobody knows that it's free most of the time. This is probably the most knowledgeable group of folks on DT GB and we still had discussions on how parking worked downtown. Marketing the abundant, cheap parking garages to the public couldn't hurt in bringing folks downtown. Also, I am not at all against developing another parking garage DT. Yes it takes up space, but it will eventually be needed and every parking garage that gets built reduces the chance of expanding parking lots. Also, many companies that rent space in a DT setting often require ample parking for their employees, even if they have to pay for it. This kind of seems to be the way that T.Wall is going and trying to entice companies by eliminating this headache for them.

Well, that ended up being a bit longer that I thought it would be... :nuts:

I have a few comments, maybe more like random thoughts.

I really cant see the whole mall site being developed all that fast, not that it can't happen, but the way I see it was with the mall they went big, and it worked at drawing the driving/suburban group for a little while and now where are we. I think we all agree that major tenats are very desirable. I am not all that sure on the logic, for the simple fact that it will draw a lot of people to work there, but very few will spend any time there outside of work.

Most of the downtowns that work are more organic in nature. People live and work there and also shop and dine there. Some people that I know that live in the burbs (milwaukee) often complain of the hassle of working downtown and all the problems with logistics of driving to and from there.

In Green Bay we dont have any real problems with commuting (other then lack of options). Most people I talk to drive over 10 miles to work, including myself. I know that in theory I would prefer to not have to own a car. Green Bay is not set up for that yet, maybe someday. I sometimes hope gas prices will keep rising so we are forced to change (or create) our energy policy. I dont think that anyone enjoys the freedom of the open road, more then myself, but we have serious transportations problems in this county and they need to get straitened out. Downtowns are all about sustainability and really work in many cities. We need not all be like Portland but some improvement would be welcome.

now I feel better:cheers:

I like the comments above.

I took the trolley thoughts a little farther. I keep thinking about how we can reduce the need for large parking lots downtown (and even do more new infill redevelopment on at least some of them) while still making it easy to get around downtown. It seems the best way to promote this is some sort of trolley system, whether by revamping and possibly re-routing the existing "Titletown Trolley" buses, or perhaps even building in street car tracks. (I know the street car tracks cost more to build, but the upside is they convey more "permanence" and thus promote more transit-oriented developments near them. Also they can be run on electricity which is much cheaper energy than diesel fuel is right now!!)

Anyway along these thought lines, I started looking at the map of downtown and playing around with the cool 3D features of Microsoft VirtuaEarth. I came up with a "Titletown Trolley Loop" which runs on a continuous loop around the downtown, stopping in front of or getting within one block of nearly all major downtown destinations (offices, shops, bars, museums, living units, parking and so on). This loop is a little different than the existing transit system in that it's one frequent loop and does not go out of the downtown...My route idea doesn't even make a stop at the transit center (someone would have to walk or take another bus to connect to the transit center). THis loop would be geared primarily towards tourists, visitors, office workers, people wanting to get a bite to eat, catch a show, whatever without relying on cars and parking (except perhaps a "park once" idea where a visitor could park on the periphery and visit all inner downtonw areas using this trolley).

Anway blah blahing aside, here is the YouTube video I exported from the VIrtualEarth route I came up with:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqQh0M60EK4

I don't know if this is anything...maybe the existing transit route is adequate..., I just did this for fun or whatever. Let me know what you think. Again I think something like this could be the one way we can have a true downtown without having to build costly and ugly parking ramps.

Oh, and P.S. you might be able to view this better using the VIrtualEarth itself from this link. (http://maps.live.com/?v=2&tour=1&encType=1&cid=874AB43A781C13F7!180) (if VirtualEarth 3D is installed & works on your PC..I don't think Macs will work).

I actually noticed this over the weekend from the City of Green Bay website. Let's keep our fingers crossed!

NEW BUSINESS:

1. Discussion and possible action on the Astor Place project.

Recommendation: To be presented at meeting.

Puant, my initial thoughts on the trolley idea: First, I'd love this to be real trolleys with tracks, but that won't happen any time soon unfortunately. Fortunately, the same concept could be done with buses. As for the route itself, there has to be a balance between getting people close to where they're going and getting them there fast enough. So first, there would have to be trolley running opposite one another along the route. Second, I'd take out a few of the stops, in many places you have a stop virtually every block. If stops were every other block, you'd still be within one block, and if people aren't willing to walk that far they probably aren't using the system in the first place. Third, I'd route the trolley from Pine to Adams to Main (taking for granted that this is going to be possible in a few years). Finally, for me this HAS to stop at the transit center to connect directly to all other routes. Also, what is the route of the current titletown trolley?

Danillo - Titletown Trolley is the 5 Route. This routes runs between Downtown to Bay Beach.

http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/forms/5_downtown_baybeach.pdf

I don't know if you guys are aware of this, but we are about to lose Federal Operating Assistance from the govt. The Green Bay Urbanized Area (not to be confused with Green Bay CSA/MSA) is approaching 200,000 and will no longer get the Federal Operating Assistance for our transit system. In 2007, we received $2.7 M for having a population less then 200,000 and being in Tier 3. In Tier 2 we can only apply for capital purchases. Somewhere in 2011 is when we will move to Tier 2 and lose our federal operating assistance. So with a 7.5M operating budget, we will lose 1/3 of that in a few years.

I wonder where the new Brown County transportation hub will be built that they are talking of. I know there is talk of connecting with Valley Transit in the future. http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=8353277

I think that the only way people are going to hop on this trolly/bus loop is if it is direct, very frequent and FREE (to start out). I think it would be very benifical if we had a loop like Puant concocted, granted it would make more sense to connect to the transit center it will also bring people out of their way.

I also feel that the transit routes need to be overhauled and completely reworked. I think we need like 3 of 4 smaller hubs with direct service routes on busy corridors. I understand now that the routes seem to cater to the people that rely on public transportaion. But in 2011 or whenever we lose our funding the costs are going to have to be made up somewhere. If we can form a truely regional RTA and link up with the valley that may be the best option, but I'm just not sure.

The closest route to my house takes me 35 minutes to get to the library downtown and with only hourly service you need super planning to make it.

That is probabaly why I own a car...

Ah well another thing we probably could/should have but won't... The trolley thing is just worth a little time to think about particularly when you read articles like this (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-01-08-streetcars_x.htm).

I guess for now we just look at Thursday's RDA meeting...I have a bad feeling about this....The combination of delays, struggling housing market/economy, yada yada...but to top it off, the way the city got the "New Flatley Park" to the south organized all of a sudden....I wondered whether the city felt they'd better appease the veterans for removing the old memorial for nothing.

This is a great forum, keep the comments coming.

Danillo - Titletown Trolley is the 5 Route. This routes runs between Downtown to Bay Beach.

Thanks. Well, Puant's route is about a million times better than that. Okay, maybe not a million, but I do think there will be use for a downtown circulator, and having the extension to Bay Beach in the current route makes that a pretty long loop. Put it this way, service to Bay Beach every half hour isn't necessarily a deal breaker because you can plan your trip around that, whereas for trips between, say, whatever they're calling Washington Square apartments now and the Save-A-Lot, you have to have service every 6 minutes or so to be practical. With a small enough loop that's not an impossible ask.

I think that the only way people are going to hop on this trolly/bus loop is if it is direct, very frequent and FREE (to start out). I think it would be very benifical if we had a loop like Puant concocted, granted it would make more sense to connect to the transit center it will also bring people out of their way.

Agreed.

I also feel that the transit routes need to be overhauled and completely reworked. I think we need like 3 of 4 smaller hubs with direct service routes on busy corridors...

The closest route to my house takes me 35 minutes to get to the library downtown and with only hourly service you need super planning to make it.

Yes, this is a big problem. It's sort of the same problem faced by by users of the El in Chicago, or any hub and spoke system, if you are even one spoke over from where you need to go, you have to go all the way into the city center, transfer, and go all the way back out. Most people won't do this, especially when there's only a bus every 30 or 60 minutes.

I really feel bad for the people trying to run transit systems in many/most places. There's the assumption that transit is supposed to "pay for itself" and when it doesn't, service is reduced, further eroding use. At some point with persistent high gas prices, I'd like to think that the debate will turn from "how can we temporarily reduce gas prices so that I can go merrily on my way using as much gas as I want" to "geez, this isn't going to get better, how can I reduce my use of gas on a permanent basis." When that switch occurs, political pressure on our leaders to invest in transit will increase.

Ah well another thing we probably could/should have but won't... The trolley thing is just worth a little time to think about particularly when you read articles like this (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-01-08-streetcars_x.htm).

I was at the River Inn in Wrightstown last week an saw a photo from, oh 1925 or something, labeled: Street Car On Main Street (Main St, in Wrightstown!). AAAAAAHHHHHH!!!! If I remember right, GBMPhillips once mentioned being able to take street cars clear down to the Fox Cities (maybe farther).

And speaking of regionalization, some sort of regional transit authority would probably help a lot. Actually, regionalization in many areas would be good, where's MGK920 to talk about the balkanization of government in Wisconsin?

I guess for now we just look at Thursday's RDA meeting...

I'm going to try to make this, should be interesting.

I was at the River Inn in Wrightstown last week an saw a photo from, oh 1925 or something, labeled: Street Car On Main Street (Main St, in Wrightstown!). AAAAAAHHHHHH!!!! If I remember right, GBMPhillips once mentioned being able to take street cars clear down to the Fox Cities (maybe farther).

And speaking of regionalization, some sort of regional transit authority would probably help a lot. Actually, regionalization in many areas would be good, where's MGK920 to talk about the balkanization of government in Wisconsin?
Yea....

You would be absolutely FLABBERGASTED at just how extensively railroads and (what is now called) rail transit were developed here in the USA in the very early 20th century. In the 1910s, there was a system of electric interurban car lines (now called 'trams' or 'light rail', although MANY interurbans also offered common-carrier interchange freight service) running from Green Bay to Fond du Lac, with a branch from Oshkosh to Omro. There were several interurban lines radiating from Milwaukee, too, one reaching Sheboygan.

If not for the transition of the automobile from 'rich mans' toy' to practical transportation for the masses during the 1920s, those interurban networks would have almost certainly joined by about 1925. The last of those lines in Wisconsin, the Chicago Milwaukee North Shore Electric, was abandoned in the 1960s. The interurban line segment between East Troy and Mukwonago, WI is still electrically operated as a museum railroad. Most cities of more than a few thousand also had at least one electric street car line, too, including Waupaca - a line ran from the Soo Line passenger station through the downtown area to the state Veterans' home at King.

The Chicago, South Shore and South Bend interurban in Illinois and Indiana is one of the very few that survives as both a passenger carrier and an interchange freight common carrier.

At its peak, one was almost able to travel between Sheboygan, WI and NYC using only interurbans. Gaps in the network totaled only about 150 km.

To this day, in an interesting case of inter-regional co-operation here in Wisconsin, Oshkosh Transit still runs their long-time interurban bus route between downtown Oshkosh and downtown Neenah, where it connects with Valley Transit routes. Thus one can travel from some outer neighborhoods in Kaukauna to the south side of Oshkosh using only transit buses.

What we once had....

:ohno:

Mike

Building home to residents on assisted-living
By Paul Srubas • psrubas@greenbaypressgazette.com • May 28, 2008 Link (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080528/GPG0101/805280614/1207/GPG01)


Restoring the 85-year-old Port Plaza Towers into the upscale hotel it once was could be great for downtown, but it won't happen unless equal or better housing can be developed for the more than 110 people living in the building, Mayor Jim Schmitt says.

In his State of the City address in April — about a month after fire temporarily displaced residents of the eight-story building — Schmitt commented on his wish to see the building restored.

Now serving as a home for elderly and disabled people, the mayor said the building at 304 N. Adams St. would serve better as an upscale hotel like the Waldorf Astoria or Drake.

The comments, made soon after the fire, alarmed some of the building's residents, who thought they were about to be evicted.

What the future holds
Alderwoman Celestine Jeffreys, whose district includes the high-rise building, recently met with residents to calm their fears.

"What I told them was: It's been a place for the disabled around 30 years," Jeffreys said. "Will the building continue another 30 years in that capacity? I can pretty much guarantee 'no.'

"But many, many, many things would have to happen before any of those residents would have to leave," she said.

She said she'd continue to advocate for the residence but predicted the change could take years. A major component would be the development of equivalent housing.

That's Schmitt's position, too.

As much as he'd like to see the building converted back to an upscale hotel, "that's secondary to making some adequate facilities available for the people living there," he said.

People who handle the federal subsidies for the building, religious groups that work with the residents, the building's owners and managers and city officials agree the residents probably would be better served by more open housing with amenities such as green space, Schmitt said.

One option is development of three or four smaller facilities of 30 to 40 units, with yards and access to public transportation and shopping, he said.

HUD involvement
Erich Schwenker, spokesman for the nonprofit Wisconsin Housing Preservation Corp., which owns the towers, said his company's board has been discussing options with Schmitt.

The company would be content to continue using the hotel for subsidized housing but understands the city's wishes to see the building complement other downtown development, Schwenker said.

The building receives subsidization from federal Housing and Urban Development, and any change would have to preserve that subsidy, he said.

In theory, the subsidy could be transferred from the one building to three or four smaller buildings, but it's a complicated bureaucratic process, Schwenker said. He had no idea how long it could take.

"If we all work together, I think it's possible to work in turn with HUD in a way that actually enhances the housing that exists for the residents," he said. "But our first priority is our residents and the care we wish to show to them."

Schmitt said he was confident the city could find a developer willing to redevelop the hotel, but that search hasn't begun yet. Developing new housing facilities and transferring the subsidy are priorities, he said.

The biggest problem that I hear about regarding our public transit is that most routes only run once per hour. Back in 1995, I was in town for the Summer, living in Allouez and working at the Embassy Suites (now Hotel Sierra) & Bay 3 Theater (now the Meyer), I remember that if I missed the bus (it often came 1-5 minutes earlier than it was supposed to), I'd invariably be 30-45 minutes late to work. This is still a problem. These systems are much more effective if the buses run every 10-15 minutes. Now, I'm generally not a fan of privatizing government services, but I think this might be a case in which the private sector could do a better job, if carefully regulated. What if we had a system of private jeepneys instead of buses? This could be a stop gap measure until we reinstitute rail, which given the rising energy costs, is really the only thing that makes sense. If you're not familiar with jeepneys, they're awesome: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeepney

Hope I can just slide myself in on this discusion....great thread with topics very near and dear to my heart.

I've lived in GB for all of my 32 years and for the first time this summer I will be moving to a new place downtown. I've always lived in Ashwaubenon or various neighborhoods and I'm very excited to be moving DT at a time when,hopefully,GB is getting it's act together.

The transit system is very much in need of a re-do. I've been using the city bus since I was a kid and it's depressing when you see how poorly run it is.

First,it amazes me how slow they have been to adjust the routes as areas like Howard and Bellevue have grown over the years. It also amazes me that you can not get to the Resch Center via city bus. You have to get off on Ridge and hike around Lambeau Field. This is unacceptable to me.

And no doubt,the offerings for one to get around the city core are just..horrid. Right now you are better off getting off at the transit center and walking to where ever you need to go. This can't continue.

It's just so frustrating. So many other cities,many in WI are doing the right things to rebuild thier downtowns and here in GB it's just like,for whatever reason,things just don't get done. We act and look so small time it's sad.
It's always 2 steps forward,4 steps back.

Take the condos on Washington for example. For a city that supposedly wants to 'grow up' why on earth did the build two 4 floor buildings that span left to right taking up valuable space?

Why not build one 8 floor tower next to the Bellin and then use the space occupied by the other building for another structure,I'm thinking a first floor row of shops,cafe,etc with some nice lofts above priced to attract college kids or young professions who would be attracted to the bars,clubs,coffee shops,music store and theaters close by?

I know,obviously that cat is long out of the bag but it's just one example of another fumbled project (the buildings are very nice but in typical GB fashion that could have been so much more) and I am very concerned about these yet to be built projects and the possibility of more mistakes.

I often say,DT GB will never be Chicago (nor should it be) but honestly it's not even Appleton at this point.


I've often felt that GB's biggest error is that,it doesn't have that crown jewel for DT to kinda tie everything together.

Some examples. In Milwaukee you have the Bradly Center downtown. In Chicago you have Navy Pier and,more or less,Soldier Field downtown as well as the Shedd.

In GB...the Weidner is way out at 'GB.
Lambeau is in Ashwubenon. Shopko Hall is in Ash....Resch is in Ash.
Joannes is by East High.

When I went to the PAC in Appleton last year..it was so cool to see bar hoppers and clubbers all out and about on the streets..sitting at tables on the walkways..just a nice little vibe going on as folks shopped or ate or went to the show.

The Meyer is a big step towards that sort of action but I fear it's just not enough.

GB's 'point's of interest' are too spread out and none of them are DOWNTOWN!

I mean,the common folk on a Friday night aren't gonna go on down to the KI are they? Thats a very specific structure,it's not something for everyday average folks. The KI is for the hotels and restaurants but the Resch or a single A baseball diamond would have brought large masses of people downtown which would create a need for places to eat and shop. What better way to promote to people that they should open a shop downtown than to say..yeah,2 or 3 nights a week all summer long you're gonna have 3,500 baseball fans milling around DT who will need places to eat or kill time before the game?

I think the IMAX idea was killer..of course nothing ever came of it and no doubt if an IMAX were ever built it would probably end up in the new development on the far east side or they'd cram it somewhere onto Oneida St.

^^ Welcome to the forum!!!

One note, and I'm not picking on you as this sort of issue comes up now and again. When a developer comes along with a 4 story project, it's not as though you can just make it an 8-story project on half of the footprint and call it even. First, if there's underground parking, you lose half of that. Second, costs to build up are just more. So, the 8 story building will cost more to build (not insignificantly) than the 4 story with double the footprint. This starts to change when land costs increase.

Additionally, and this refers to discussion about Astor Place, it isn't like they can lob off 5 stories and then build the project, as the 5 stories they'd be lobbing off have a disproportionate share of the sales value. Now that said, a reduction may result in a more viable project, but you'd be sort of starting over, which in the case of Astor Place may end up being worthwhile as it doesn't seem to be getting built in it's current scale.

I guess the my point is that buildings get built on the scale they do in large part because of economic limiters. Change the proportions of a building and it may not longer make economic sense.

Building home to residents on assisted-living
By Paul Srubas • psrubas@greenbaypressgazette.com • May 28, 2008 Link (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080528/GPG0101/805280614/1207/GPG01)

People who handle the federal subsidies for the building, religious groups that work with the residents, the building's owners and managers and city officials agree the residents probably would be better served by more open housing with amenities such as green space, Schmitt said.

One option is development of three or four smaller facilities of 30 to 40 units, with yards and access to public transportation and shopping, he said.



Perhaps a good area to build new housing for these residents would be near the transit hub on University Avenue. This would give those without cars more independence to be near all transit lines.

An urban village approach could include a grocery store, sundry shop i.e. ShopKo Express, and other small businesses that could be incorporated into the first floor design of the building. Underground parking built into the structure would be a nice feature too not only for the residents, but save the city from having yet another unsightly parking lot.

Advertising the downtown:
I agree OliverDP that not enough is being done to advertise. I think the 'branding initiative' is geared towards the community as a whole, so there will be equal pub given to the far-flung clusterf$() developmets as there will the downtown. So I think the best advertisement we can hope for is "word of mouth". What can we do as a grassroots movement?

Trollies
Since they're "sexy (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-01-08-streetcars_x.htm)" I'm taking them to heart. I agree with Danillo, a slightly modified route like this (http://maps.live.com/?v=2&encType=1&cid=874AB43A781C13F7!210)would be better. This route is just over 2 miles, about the same length as Kenosha's popular & successful trolley. Of course, Kenosha's trolley (http://www.lightrailnow.org/facts/fa_ken_2005-01.htm)ties in well with the Metra system. Well GB's trolley could tie into the eventual MW regional rail depot (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2007/08/regional-rail-to-serve-green-bay-once.html) if this comes back to GB (it would come in on the track along Broadway near Titletown Brewing depot).

Just a couple more thoughts on the trolley and then I'll move on: They're surprisingly inexpensive to build (relatively speaking). Kenosha's was built using nearly all federal funding for about $5 million. How much did GB's new Cherry Street parking ramp cost? Twice that?

In the mean time, simply re-routing the Titletown Trolley Bus on a better route might suffice, particularly if there could be a way to make it free to ride as GBSurveyor said. I wonder how schmucks like us would fare in lobbying for this? We all seem to agree this needs fixing, so what if we all join together and force the changes?

mgk920 - Very interesting history you provided. YOu could write a book on this stuff! Thanks for sharing.

P.S. what I don't like about Kenosha's trolley is the overhead power lines and the style of the street cars.

Hotel Northland
Of course the current residents must have their needs met, but I agree they might actually be better served with a new facility. I know we discussed this and the whole Northland redevelopment at length on this forum some time ago, but I sure am glad people who actually have ability to make change are looking into this stuff. THis is something else to hold some hope & excitement about DT.

Chicagoenvy
I also welcome you to this forum. And I so very, very, very much agree with you!! What you said about everything being so spread out is what struck me as very odd when I first moved here. It's a "small" (actually mid) size city but with everthing so spread out it's just so inconvenient and awkward. It really didn't have to be this way, but now it is, so how do we deal with it? Well you are taking one important step, which is to move downtown. I tried it for a while about 5 years ago, and at that time with 2 young kids it just didn't work out for us...and the downtown seemed to have been bottomed out and going nowhere at that time...but your situation might be different now, with some things seemingly headed in the right direction now. Let us know how it's going for you.

Well long post, Brewers just won again, I'm happy & out.:cheers:

I will point out that Kenosha's $5 M vintage trolleys only get a ridership of 50 people per weekend and 200 weekends. Thats sad.... :lol: Maybe I can call my buddy at Wausaukee Composites who are building Portland's streetcars (body) and they can put those in their lineup.

Chicagoenvy- I hear you about the lack of options on the buses. It really needs to run every 10-15 is right.



I took the buses once and it took me 30 mins to get to

downtown and another 30 mins to get across town. So say I would go to work, it would take me almost 90 mins or so one way. I cannot rely on the buses getting there :59 on the hour if I have to work at say 9am. I wouldn't want to get there a minute early and have to run and clock in. Just ridiculous. Now they are forecasting $200 a barrel, equal to $6 - $7 in the near future (not right away). I am thinking of getting a small scooter maybe if it gets 70mph+.

Green Bay has always been a city that has never had a very good plan. It's as if the City has to fix all of the past mistakes and doesn't focus anything on the future to get it done correctly. There is so much potential too. I would like Green Bay to have different neighborhoods with a theme or something. Like build a German or Italian village in one neighborhood. I still think the East River could be developed to have something like San Antonio has on a very small scale. Do something different and build a winter or indoor garden such as the Colombus, OH - Franklin Park Conservatory.


http://www.fpconservatory.org/images/palmhouse_wed.jpg

I ignore people when they say things are impossible, your talking about a man who has Palm trees in his yard...in Green Bay.

I will point out that Kenosha's $5 M vintage trolleys only get a ridership of 50 people per weekend and 200 weekends. Thats sad.... :lol:


...I've also read that the Kenosha system had "..initial ridership of 400-500 per day, considerably above expectations.." (link (http://www.heritagetrolley.org/existKenoshaOverview.htm)). Five years after it was built, according to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcars_in_Kenosha,_Wisconsin), the ridership is 60,000 people per year so yeah that's only about 166 people per day....Many more in the summer vs. the Winter. Not a lot, granted, but again, we build parking ramps for what, like $5 million, to park this many cars (only the parking ramp serves fewer businesses & a much smaller area). So I don't think it's all that whacky of an idea, albeit somewhat whacky.

Well anyway, this is all just pipe dreaming....just fun to think about before we get into the reality of the Astor proposal getting whacked (probably).

I get a funny feeling like this is the true beginning of the end of Astor Place. At today's meeting I have a feeling they will either announce that it is done and over or some hair brain plan that will take a miracle to pull off to grant a stay of execution for another year. By that time, will anyone be still wating to buy???:ohno:

Yeah I think Astor Place is a no go...very sad. Maybe they will make an extention of an extention or postpone the boardwalk

I get a funny feeling like this is the true beginning of the end of Astor Place. At today's meeting I have a feeling they will either announce that it is done and over or some hair brain plan that will take a miracle to pull off to grant a stay of execution for another year. By that time, will anyone be still wating to buy???

Yeah I think Astor Place is a no go...very sad. Maybe they will make an extention of an extention or postpone the boardwalk

Well, here's the dealio. Getting credit for projects is a pain, so Vetter is trying to put together a group of investors to back the projects so he can have a solid financing package. He's trying to raise in the ballpark of $20 million! With that, he feels he'll be able to get sales. I'll leave it to all of you to judge if that makes sense or not, but if he can get the investors, at least that would be a good sign that people besides himself feel the project is viable.

Really, to a degree I feel bad for Vetter here. How many developers would have cut and run a long time ago, whereas he's put himself in a position to fight for this as long as the city will let him. But the reality is that it's time to start entertaining other ideas. Not that they should cut out or not support Vetter, but I think it's wise to at least know what else is out there. The Mayor and Allison Swanson both made reference to interest in the site, but for smaller scale proposals. The RDA members seemed to agree that we shouldn't settle for something smaller.

Now, we can't have a 2 floor building there, but we shouldn't so fall in love with Astor Place that we settle for nothing less. If a scale of project isn't viable in this market, it isn't viable no matter how much we want it to be. We can become victims of out own raised expectations. The right 10 or 8 or even 6 story building could be a great addition. 17 would be wonderful, and until Astor Place is officially dead I'll do whatever small bit I can to support it, but prudence indicates that we need to look for what else may be out there and be willing to accept something smaller so long as it's of acceptable high quality and has the right uses to promote a vibrant downtown.

Thank you for the words Danillo! I am not sure how to exactly perceive this and still only find myself to have a lot of concerns on what this means to the riverfront, Boardwalk, progress. My fiance is from Appleton originally and we are talking about moving to Green Bay from La Crosse in the next year. I am hoping that downtown will be taking shape by then. I keep bragging to her that Green Bay and the downtown is a city on the rise and I am a little bummed out right now. Can Danillo or anyone offer a bit of a pep talk? :banana:With those thoughts in mind, I have a couple of questions for you.

1.) By "projects," does that include Astor Place and the Warehouse portion of the River Center?

2.) With Vetter's attempt at financing, was another extension granted or any mention of a time table?

3.) What was the overall "feel" of the meeting. Was there still a sense of optimism from Allison Swanson, the Mayor, board members, etc. that this project could still happen or was it more of a last ditch effort.

Danillo-

This is kind of how I take what you said. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So the 20 million is what he is short of financing the entire project when you subtract the sales he already has from the total project cost. So if he gets the 20 million from investors Astor will be built and then hopefully if it is actually built people will buy the units. Kind of a "if you build it, they will come" sort of approach. Then after the units are sold, the investors make some money, Vetter makes a little money and we get the highrise we've been waiting for in downtown? Is my understanding anywhere close to what is really going on?

See,more rinky dink 3 floor buildings that take up space. Brings me back to my original point about the Washington condos and how THAT should have been a mid-rise (5-8 floors) project..especially at that location.

I agree about how you just can't go and build a 17 story condo if the market won't support it. But,the question is...why can't an NFL city support ONE hi-rise residential in it's core?

Other cities are building UP..cities not much bigger than GB. Cities in that 90,000 to 150,000 range are promoting and filling and actually BUILDING 10,12,14,18 floor buildings.

GB just can't get this done.

Why?

Chicago didn't just build the Sears Tower and hoped one day it would be full. You generate demand for such structures. Why can't our city leaders get folks downtown? Both residential and commercial?

It's sad and depressing as all heck.

I just know that that site is gonna end up with another bland 4 floor mix use building. It's how GB does things.

The whole river front redevelopment just feels like darts at a wall. See what sticks.

See,more rinky dink 3 floor buildings that take up space. Brings me back to my original point about the Washington condos and how THAT should have been a mid-rise (5-8 floors) project..especially at that location.

I agree about how you just can't go and build a 17 story condo if the market won't support it. But,the question is...why can't an NFL city support ONE hi-rise residential in it's core?

Other cities are building UP..cities not much bigger than GB. Cities in that 90,000 to 150,000 range are promoting and filling and actually BUILDING 10,12,14,18 floor buildings.

GB just can't get this done.

Why?

Chicago didn't just build the Sears Tower and hoped one day it would be full. You generate demand for such structures. Why can't our city leaders get folks downtown? Both residential and commercial?

It's sad and depressing as all heck.

I just know that that site is gonna end up with another bland 4 floor mix use building. It's how GB does things.

The whole river front redevelopment just feels like darts at a wall. See what sticks.

I appreciate the opinion, but believe you are slightly off base. The growth of Downtown GB has very little to do with being an NFL city. Just because we have the Packers doesn't mean we can support highrises downtown (many miles away from the stadium) or even near the stadium.

Your statement regarding the population of GB and the lack of a downtown holds a bit of water, but the lack of development isn't due to the fact that we can't support it, but rather that past developments have slowed this tremendously. It would be one thing if we were starting with a blank slate and got to design our city from the ground up (think what we could do in SimCity :nuts:), but since we have to work with our current infrastructure and that half of the metro population lives in the burbs it will take some time to overcome.

In my opinion, I would love to see something prominent get built on the Astor location and would prefer to see it all residential (except for the first floor) due to the location. I don't think 17 is necessary, but it would be nice. Just think where we would be if Vetter started with a 10-12 story plan 4 years ago. We would most likely have a nice building and interest would be growing.

Grand Union is dead. Saw it on Fox 11. :ohno:

As far as Astor. I know that bank investors are becoming more picky as far as demands for financing projects, but that is just the way it is. I'm not sure if local investors (since we have so many) will be willing to put out 20 million dollars to make these "two" projects a reality. Isn't it the two projects and not just Astor? Don't you think they will have the same concerns as banks do? Whatever.

My two cents would be lower the price point, increase the number of units. The smaller lower price points seem to work here. We are not Milwaukee or Chicago where those higher prices for 1200 sf work. Maybe all of those were exhausted with Riverfront Lofts? Not sure, just wondering.

What about combining the two buildings into one? I know it would take a lot of work, but I only see a few options since it looks like both Grand Union and Astor are taking their last breath.

1) Scrap both projects and let other developers try their luck

2) Scale down either/both of the projects

3) If we still want the signature tower, come up with a new plan that combines both residential and commercial. Vetter seemed to do ok selling about half of the residential spaces in Astor and I believe the Grand Union had about half the floors reserved for commercial space. Why not put them together and build it on the Astor site??

Grand Union was associated with the Meyer Theatre as an additional revenue stream and expansion of the facilities. They own the Daily Planet property.

Vetter owns the Astor site. I would be interested to know if he fails in his developers agreement if it reverts back to City ownership? If it doesn't he just has to pay the City a million bucks for the work done on Washington Street and market it himself.

I don't think the combo would work in this sense. Although I have many times thought there should be coordination between developers, but as life no matter how good they look or woe is me - developers are in it to make money and money alone for themselves. Very few just do things because they actually really care about the community.

We have missed the boat on so many things that it just is the way it is and why it is so hard to invest significantly in downtown.

I guess I wasn't necessarily referring to Astor and the Grand Union combining forces, but if it may be feasible for a single developer to take this approach and make it successful. The only issue is that the Astor and GU sites are prime locations, but I'm sure others would be available.

Wow. I'm not sure whether to applaud Vetter for his resiliency or feel sorry for him for his desperation. I'll just go with tenacity. The most amazing large-scale developer to come into downtown Green Bay in a looong time...gotta recognize him for that, even though he's grasping now.

So the Grand Union is dead....WEre any reasons given? I recall that when the proposal hit, something like 1/3 immediately sold.

Looks like Green Bay downtown will stay empty. Too bad they allowed Vetter to drag this out instead of putting his feet to the coals and tell him to do what he was hired for. It's too bad but the Mayor allowed this to drag out and now the few people who have invested in Green Bay banking on Vetter are going to suffer.

but just watch they will do something stupid like start the boardwalk, it's the Green Bay way. cart first then the horse. Very disappointing.

Well, Vetter had the best proposal to come in many years. Initial sales were strong, so it made sense to give him some more time. Then the economy & housing market crashed. I don't fault the city or Vetter for that.

Vetter wasn't "hired" to do anything. He took a risk to invest in our downtown, he stubbornly stuck with his plan. Now he's realizing what most other developers through the years have learned the hard way--downtown Green Bay is a tough place to make stuff happen because of the bad attitudes held by many around here about the downtown.

Somehow the conservative status quo around here as come to believe that the comfortable way to develop things involves buiding in far-flung farm fields out on the fringe of town, places that require miles upon miles of expensive new roads, utilities and other infrastrucutre, which in turn lead to further waste when it comes to overextending services such as fire, police, schools and so on. Try to develop in the city center on mostly existing infrastructure? Forget it. Not the status quo. Too "radical". The conservative beliefs around here are really turned upside down. It's just crazy when you really analyze it.

By Richard Ryman • rryman@greenbaypressgazette.com • May 29, 2008- Link (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080529/GPG03/80529127/1978)

Community investment in River Center and Astor Place will be needed to move forward with those riverfront projects, developer John Vetter told the Green Bay Redevelopment Authority today.

He said the national credit crisis has made it impossible to get bank financing without having considerable equity.

“What was possible 12 months ago is not possible now,” Vetter said. “It’s kind of disappointing, but it is what it is.”

Vetter said $21 million in equity will make it possible to finance the remaining $31 million for the two projects.

“If we raise the equity from the community standpoint, we can pick the bank to finance it,” he said.

Vetter said he’s had preliminary talks with local unions and others who might be interested in investing. He said return on investment would be 8 percent for subordinated debt and 15 percent for equity invesment.

Vetter’s projects include a combined retail and hotel condominium project called River Center, which also will be home to the NEW Children’s Museum, and Astor Place, a 17-story retail and condominium tower. Both are on the site of the former Younkers department store.

Vetter was before the Redevelopment Authority because his development agreement is due to expire June 1. Rather than extend the agreement, which would require City Council approval, the RDA tabled it until August to give Vetter time to round up at least some initial investors.

“I understand what John is up against … it’s a national credit epidemic, not a local one. I think the plan he outlined … is a solid request and makes it much easier to get necessary financing,” said Harry Maier, RDA chairman.

RDA board member and Alderman Tom Weber said there aren’t any better options.

Jeff Mirkes, executive director of Downtown Green Bay, said the projects are important pieces of downtown redevelopment.

“A lot of pure developers wouldn’t continue on and go forward,” he said of Vetter. “He is a developer who has a lot of drive to see this to completion. He’s pointing out he’s not in this alone.”

Sort of a bad deal for the Rivercenter to be lumped into the financing package but after I read this I feel really good about both projects including Astor happening.

He said return on investment would be 8 percent for subordinated debt and 15 percent for equity invesment.

This quote alone gives me a feel that if the current financial crisis wasn't happening that it surely would have broke ground by now. That is an insane payout. Even some of the best mutual funds don't come close to this rate of return, and when you compare this to the bond market with a 4% payout it sure blows that away. I would be interested to see the calculations on this one.

One thing I know is that there are a ton of people in this city that have loads of cash and it will just take the right bait to get them to bite. Maybe condo living isn't for most. But making money sure is...

Well, Vetter had the best proposal to come in many years. Initial sales were strong, so it made sense to give him some more time. Then the economy & housing market crashed. I don't fault the city or Vetter for that.

Vetter wasn't "hired" to do anything. He took a risk to invest in our downtown, he stubbornly stuck with his plan. Now he's realizing what most other developers through the years have learned the hard way--downtown Green Bay is a tough place to make stuff happen because of the bad attitudes held by many around here about the downtown.

Somehow the conservative status quo around here as come to believe that the comfortable way to develop things involves buiding in far-flung farm fields out on the fringe of town, places that require miles upon miles of expensive new roads, utilities and other infrastrucutre, which in turn lead to further waste when it comes to overextending services such as fire, police, schools and so on. Try to develop in the city center on mostly existing infrastructure? Forget it. Not the status quo. Too "radical". The conservative beliefs around here are really turned upside down. It's just crazy when you really analyze it.

Agreed... I was hoping that this downturn was going to slow sprawl enough that we could build up the core and stabilize the inner city. In its current state downtown Green Bay really isnt all that appealing to live in, but there is no reason to belive that this can't change. I have this feeling that the younger generations that grew up remote and sheltered in suburbia are flocking to cites for a change and an urban lifestyle and again Green Bay is missing the boat, granted the best jobs are not located here and that is a large part of the exodous but not everyone in this country lives the same way, dependant on the car, as the locals.

This quote alone gives me a feel that if the current financial crisis wasn't happening that it surely would have broke ground by now. That is an insane payout. Even some of the best mutual funds don't come close to this rate of return, and when you compare this to the bond market with a 4% payout it sure blows that away. I would be interested to see the calculations on this one.

Higher risk, higher reward. Remember that the "payout" mentioned in the article is in no way a guarantee. To reference a previous post, "if you build it, they will come".....if he builds it & they DON'T come, investors are out of luck.

I've been lurking on this board for a while & have only posted once or twice, but read pretty much every day. Here is one thought I had...

The real estate market is depressed right now, making it not a great (understatement...) time to build

BUT

Why can't we tap into the buyers' market to get more interest? If these condos were priced below market, with a published schedule of price escalations, it could create a sense of urgency to buy now vs the wait & see attitude that I think many people have.

Something like if you committ to buying now, 15% below market. In 6 months that number changes to 10% below market. 1 year, 5% below market. Basically what I'm referring to is the equivalent of dollar-cost averaging--mitigate some of the risk, at the expense of ultimate profiit.

If I'm an investor, I'm more concerned about unsold units than units selling at a lower price.

We need something to build some momentum. If Astor is viewed as the first of many rather than "hopefully we can get 1 built" this plan makes more sense. IF we can build that momentum, each sale, each development is going to get easier than the last.

Okay, first I'll try to answer a few questions based on my impressions from the meeting yesterday, then the pep talk...

I don't believe that the $21 million would mean that the projects (and yes, the warehouse portion of River Center was lumped in with Astor Place in this) would be all set for construction. Basically, they are raising equity to make banks feel comfortable loaning the remainder of the money, but they'd still need pre-sales to protect the investors. There were one or two comments to the effect that they may begin some construction work if they raise the money (I was a bit confused as to what I was hearing, just sort of comments in passing) but for sure it would not be enough to complete the projects on its own.

Vetter seemed confident that he'd be able to raise the money, and he made a reasonably compelling case as to why. First, you have wealthy people who may want to help the city along, and this gives them a chance to do so without it being charity (I'd say this is one of those groups you can't count on, they may exist and if so great, but we'll see). Beyond that, you have interested parties such as the construction companies and unions who could see this not only as a chance to make money off the investment, but also need to generate work/jobs in a weak construction market. These types of groups may well be willing to become partners on a project like this out of their own self-interest.

So, as things stand now, the developers agreement is going to expire this Sunday. The RDA has delayed action on that for 60 days (a bit more, actually) to give Vetter time to look for an investment group. If that comes together, they are likely to extend the developers agreement at that time, if not, the project is likely to be dead (Astor, anyway). Work is going to start this summer on the upland portion of the City Deck, this will be paid for from the grant money received, and makes all the sense in the world to do.

During the meeting Alderman Webber made some (I thought) fairly eloquent remarks about the need for the city to do more to promote the downtown vision. Votes on the downtown projects have tended to go 8-4, 9-3, or even 10-2. Yet the minority is continually allowed to yell and scream and drive the debate, which is their right except that it creates the impression that their view is the will of the city, which is repeatedly and consistently not the case. The majority needs to be doing a better job shaping the discussion.

Look, I didn't leave that meeting yesterday feeling all that great. Astor Place is an important project, and one that I'd really love to see completed and still hope will be. At the same time, compare the state of affairs here to 10 years ago. We now have:

The KI Center
The Meyer Theatre
Johnson Bank
Nicolet Bank
Baylake Bank (and APAC)
Riverfront Lofts
Riverside Place
Renovated Bellin Building
St. Brendan's Inn

Among others. Even in the current economy (which, it's fair to add, isn't a recession yet and on a national level hasn't had one quarter of negative growth yet, but has affected consumer confidence, and importantly to what we're trying to do, slowed housing and credit) we have construction on a portion of the Larsen Canning site, construction on the River Center apartments, and work started on a new Children's Museum. We have a strong market for class A office space (class A buildings being at or near full occupancy). We have people such as the donors to the Meyer Theatre and Steve from the Bellin Building (among others) who have believed in the direction downtown and backed that up with significant dollars. On the back of that, we have increasingly accomplished developers (such as T. Wall) viewing Green Bay as a place where they can put projects together and make money, even on very difficult sites. Just as importantly, the downtown districts have come to be a place where entrepreneurs not only want to do business, but feel that they need to be for their business.

We have the right plan, and we have consistent progress towards that plan. Nothing this difficult was ever going to be easy, and not every proposal is going to succeed. This isn't Whoville, we can't all join in a circle, sign "ba-who-boray" and suddenly the Grinch's heart grows three sizes. But taking the broad view, there has been consistent and remarkable progress towards improving the downtown. Our job is to be realistic about what's happening, realistic in our expectations, and most importantly consistent in spreading the word that things are moving in the right direction and that the plans we are working towards and important and achievable. Fortunately, it's an easy case to make because it's true, and those who would say otherwise are missing the picture and can't be allowed to drive the debate.

Thanks Danillo for the updates. If you were a betting man, what are the odds that the Astor Place project will take place? In your best guess....

Danillo I agree with you that there have been several smaller projects that have helped the downtown a lot in the past few years, but half the places you just mentioned no one knows about. For example I really enjoy going to St. Brendan's for dinner and when I tell people were I went they always reply with "were is that? I've never heard of it" Then when I tell them its downtown they always seem a little tentative about trying it out.

As far as the negative views, even if they are fewer in number, being louder than the positive. Did anyone check out the comments from the Astor article on the press gazette website. It really is ashame that the opinion of the posters on there reflect what a lot of people in this city are thinking. I swear, half the people in this town still think we have a metro area of 30k not 300k.

not, the project is likely to be dead (Astor, anyway). Work is going to start this summer on the upland portion of the City Deck, this will be paid for from the grant money received, and makes all the sense in the world to do.They are going a head with it? WHy was nit the BIG Vetter project only going through if he got that boardwalk and now that he has failed why are we wasting money and time on this project? Vetter has wasted a lot of time and the mayor needs to be held responsible for this failure. He tried to build himself a shrine instead of going for a project that was feasable and would work in Green Bay. This town does not need a 17 story building so we can say 'hey we are a big league city now we have a skyscraper'. When they had a hard time even selling out the original condo building vetter built that should have told them something, but it did not and now we are stuck with a mess on the riverfront.

I wonder how many young people read the visceral comments posted over on the Press-Gazette forum and think, "You know, this town sucks! I'm getting the hell out of here!!". So they move away from this little hick town and we lose.

Myself, I'm at a stage of my life where I know there are other quality of life issues that keep me here. Yet I see the "big picture" on these matters..many who post on the P-G forum clearly don't. These loudmouths have little basis for their yakking and do far more harm than good.

OliverDP and I posted our viewpoints over on that P-G forum yesterday. Maybe some others can take a turn to lend a supporting voice for the downtown here (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080530/GPG0101/805300613/1207/GPG01).

I've been trying to set up an account to do that, but for some reason my computer keeps freezing when I go to log in.

My favorite one from over there though is the dope that says "so you buy a million dollar condo and walk out your front door and then what? there is nothing"

So what happens when you walk out of your front door in your house in the suburbs? There is still nothing, plus now you have to drive 10 minutes to get to something. I really wish the people in this city would just wake up and actually appreciate change and progress that will make this "hick town" ,as Puant put it, a better place for everyone living here.

Well since I'm still in college and don't have the money to invest in Astor, I am going to have to go down there to support local businesses a different way and have a drink. Have a good weekend everyone.

^^ Honestly, the people who post on PG sound like high school drop-outs who have never stepped foot outside of Ashwaubenon or De Pere. In a comparatively progressive place like Madison, we get identical comments in our paper's forums (from exurbanites who never step foot in the city) when big projects die despite multiple times as many projects succeeding beautifully.

The views on PG's forums do not reflect the views of the city at large. As was mentioned earlier here, "ignorance is louder than reason" because nobody gives them the time if day. I wouldn't worry too much about PG's forums regarding anything.

^^aramon you're probably right. You cannot reason with these people, no point in trying. I just wish that they weren't the only ones getting the publicity, that's all.

I think what this all comes down is what it always comes down to in Green Bay. People will piss and moan about how this or that isn't needed or how XYZ project can be scaled down or or whatever but I think as always,once something is built demand usually exceeds what is provided.

Some examples.

People whined about the Resch Center. Look at the kinds of acts GB has gotten since it was built. Not everybody can go to Chicago for a class A show....look at the same day sellouts...look at how many acts play consecutive nights to meet demand. You could argue the Resch should have been built with 2000 more seats. You have UWGB,arena FB,Gamblers....year round sports,etc.

Lambeau Field. I'd say the atrium is a smashing success. I went to the NFL Draft party at the atrium and had a blast. Prior to the renovation you'd have held that in Shopko Hall...if at all. The possibilities are endless and I bet most who were against these projects have beneftied from them on some level.

These were 2 things we didn't 'need'. Imagine life w/o them now?

The KI downtown needs to be expanded to meet new demands...that's a good thing right?

To me,it isn't about driving DT and seeing a skyscraper. To say that completely misses the point.

It's a quality of life issue. It's about being proud of your home city. Is it wrong to live in a energetic,exciting place with a lively downtown?

I love that 'buzz' you feel when you drive into a happening city center.
Is it wrong to want that for GB? right now I'd kill to have what Appleton has.

When you drive into Chicago,don't you think "wow,this is cool" is it wrong to want DT GB to be 'cool'? It's more than that but I think you see what I'm getting at.

Is it wrong to say,I want more for my city? Is it wrong to want to feel like you actually live in a CITY?

The Astor project isn't just so GB can say it has a hi-rise and if you feel that's all it repesents then I feel bad for you.

I guess too,I love urban grit and the kind of vibe you can only get downtown..the corner cafes,the people,hustle and bustle,shops,city squares with folks doing their thing,,,,night life (and not just bars) but theaters and nice places to eat.....people leave GB to find that elsewhere. Wouldn't it be nice if for once GB could provide that experience and maybe get folks to start staying/coming here?

I've lived in Ash. just off of Oneida for the last 10 years and let me say that whole Oneida St. scene is so old and stale.

Part of our choice to move DT was that I felt like in the next 2-4 years that DT GB would be the place to be...kinda get in on the ground floor before housing was snatched up,etc. I hope that is still the case.

Even in the current economy (which, it's fair to add, isn't a recession yet and on a national level hasn't had one quarter of negative growth yet, but has affected consumer confidence, and importantly to what we're trying to do, slowed housing and credit)

Couldn't agree more, Dan. The housing market has slowed dramatically but as a whole the economy is not in the dire straits that it's made out to be. The stock market looks forward, not at historical data, and has been making some strong gains the past few months. And people love to complain about gas prices. Even at the high $3s per gallon the average person will pay maybe $400 more over a year's time. I'd contend a car is more vital than cable TV which the average person spends $600-$1,000/year on. My point is, perception always trumps reality. And when people think the economy is crumbling around them, fear makes them think twice about purchasing a new condo in an unproven market.

Something like if you committ to buying now, 15% below market. In 6 months that number changes to 10% below market. 1 year, 5% below market. Basically what I'm referring to is the equivalent of dollar-cost averaging--mitigate some of the risk, at the expense of ultimate profiit.


Jerkylips - Vetter tried this with Astor. Buyers who put in a deposit early got a 20% discount off of market rate. The problem is no one really knows what market rate is for this type of project in downtown GB. The developer can have aspirations of selling at, say, $400/sf and mark the presales down 20% from that baseline. But after the building is completed those units might only fetch $310/sf in an open market. When things get desperate a developer will take whatever he can get when there are construction loans to pay off. It's a good thought (it's actually used pretty often by developers) but I think the skeptical nature of the community when it comes to DTGB kept buyers away even with the promise of a discount. It seems like Astor had to be a "build first, then people will buy" kind of place. Of course, banks generally don't give their money away on hope and potential.

Danillo, your update is key. Much more informative than in the PG article. I'm surprised to hear the warehouse portion of Rivercenter has been halted. Weren't the tenants already lined up for that site? I really thought that was a done deal and Astor was the only project for which there was concern of a dead end. And considering portions of Rivercenter (Children's Museum, apartment site) are already being constructed, what will happen if in 60 days Vetter doesn't come up with the $20MM? Is there a guarantee that they will be completed even if Vetter has to pay back his $1MM deposit?

And speaking of the comments on the PG, a lot of those who posted brought up Tom Juza. Does anyone have a thought on whether this site would be any farther along if he was in control? I doubt his financial backing was any better but maybe his local influence could have spurred things along. Maybe he'll be back in the running if things don't work out for John Vetter. Or perhaps T. Wall would like to try its hand at putting something up on the riverfront.

Overall, it's a downer (especially the Younkers building which I was convinced would be lit up within the next couple years) but I can't see that Astor Place site staying vacant for long even if Vetter isn't able to get the deal done.

Check out what Kansas City is up to vis-a-vis street cars: http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/story/643317.html

Vetter is the right man for Green Bay. I have confidence he'll pull off the financing. I have nothing to back up that statement, just a gut feeling.

And people love to complain about gas prices. Even at the high $3s per gallon the average person will pay maybe $400 more over a year's time. I'd contend a car is more vital than cable TV which the average person spends $600-$1,000/year on. My point is, perception always trumps reality.
.

Not to be nitpicky, but I'd say the average person pays significantly more in fuel costs than what you suggest. I'd say people around here drive around 12,000 miles per year, many with larger trucks or SUVs that get only about 22 mpg (545 gallons of gas per year). Most people seem to sort of "accept" gas prices to be perhaps $2.50 per gallon, so they "expect" to pay maybe $1363 in fuel over the course of a year. Now that gas is nearly $4 per gallon that's $2180...so my point here is they're paying over $800 in extra fuel just for their cars alone...ANd I know a lot of people drive way more than 12,000 miles per year..HOw many poeple live in Suamico or someplace, work in DePere, have a cottage up north they go to every weekend, and drive a large truck because they pull a boat or whatever up to the cabin? These people put way more than 12,000 miles per year on and also get less than 22 mpg.

Additionally, as we are seeing, the INDIRECT cost of high fuel prices--everything else in our lives has gone up , so this translates to much more than even $800 less in the pocketbook.

In the larger context, the high fuel prices are really starting to become significant, enough that people buy less widgets or make fewer other expenditures.

Thats not to mention the fact that diesel fuel is at almost $5.00 a gallon being at $4.69.9 a gallon down here in Oshkosh. Some passanger trucks, Semi trucks farm implements, and trains use diesel fuels, and at the price being paid to fuel up it is no wonder everything is going up in price.

I guess too,I love urban grit and the kind of vibe you can only get downtown..the corner cafes,the people,hustle and bustle,shops,city squares with folks doing their thing,,,,night life (and not just bars) but theaters and nice places to eatI really believe that the vast majority of people want the downtown to come alive again. They would love to see what you describe actually happen there. But for some reason the people involved with doing that just can't seem to bring the right projects downtown.

One of the things I saw from the beginning was the prices they had for the condos listed. Yes there is a lot of money in this town, but they have already built beautiful homes they were not going to leave for a downtown condo.

I really think the guy from Madison has the right idea in restoring downtown, start smaller and build from there. Or like the plan they tried to get going on the corner next to the Meyer, I reall thought that one would catch on.

Its also a shame they can't attract more companies like APAC to move into the downtown. That is what is needed right now to make the downtown start to revitalize, business not condos. Once people are working downtown they would be or likely to want to locate closer to work, but they are not going to live downtown only to have to drive to Howard, De Pere, Ashwaubenon etc for jobs, especially if they are happy with their current situation.

Maybe the Vetter plan would have been more appropriate further down the road, but the number of delays even before the market went bad was really a sign that it was not exciting the right people.

Someone here keeps using conservative in his post, he is correct this area is conservative they are not quick to change and people who are trying to bring change really need to look and think about that angle of it. What ever is done to develop downtown needs to fit the people of this community, you cannot expect that the people will change to fit the developments. It's not in Green Bay's bloodline.

Evening everyone, im new here also stumbled upon this site a week ago and and wanted to sign up...but drool is tough to clean from the keyboard. Anyways ive always relied on emporis for GB's info. Right now im passing thru one of my employers places in st. louis.

my 2 cents;

One of the problems, in my opinion the big problem with GB is the lack of HQ's offices downtown such as;
Cellcom, Schneider(my employer), Shopko, GBpackaging, etc...

Look up Harrisburg, PA on emporis and you'll crap ur pants at the size of the CBD, and its population - 50,000.

Yea i really hope Astor can get going, but the GB population doesnt have enough higher income, unlike madison or milwaukee.

Regarding the/a trolley, completely for it, i say if kenosha can do it, so can GB. One line that would be neat would be up and down Oneida st.

(its hot down here)

First off, welcome Jschmuck! The board's participation is growing rapidly. This in itself is a great sign and tells me there may be a bit more interest in revitalizing downtown than you hear on the PG boards :nuts:

I really believe that the vast majority of people want the downtown to come alive again. They would love to see what you describe actually happen there. But for some reason the people involved with doing that just can't seem to bring the right projects downtown.

I also believe the vast majority of people want to see it, but most are not willing to do anything about it. Or worse, there are the 20% or so that are the loudest that fight against it. If it involves one slight chance of TIF or public funding they gripe and complain to anybody that will listen. I'm not saying TIF, 0.5% sales tax, etc. are good in all cases, but there is a reason they exist. At least us here on this board have the foresight to see how this can help in the correct situations.

Its also a shame they can't attract more companies like APAC to move into the downtown. That is what is needed right now to make the downtown start to revitalize, business not condos. Once people are working downtown they would be or likely to want to locate closer to work, but they are not going to live downtown only to have to drive to Howard, De Pere, Ashwaubenon etc for jobs, especially if they are happy with their current situation.

One of the problems, in my opinion the big problem with GB is the lack of HQ's offices downtown such as;
Cellcom, Schneider(my employer), Shopko, GBpackaging, etc...

I agree 100%. This would more or less "force" people to be downtown during the daytime and would lead to increased foot traffic and greater potential for other businesses. Unfortunately, many of the local large companies are heavily invested at their current locations, most of which happens to be in the burbs and occurred when sprawl was on the up and up.

Yea i really hope Astor can get going, but the GB population doesnt have enough higher income, unlike madison or milwaukee.

I'm not 100% in agreement with this statement. I think there are A LOT of folks in the area that have income to support this. However, many of them have families and do not see DT as a great spot for raising a family. Also, and most importantly, there is no reason for them to give up their huge houses on the river, in the burbs etc. since there is nothing DT that entices them to move there.

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On a separate note, what can we do to get more involved in the revitalization of DT? We have enough voices here to make a real impact. Heck, I'm sure we could even come up with some pretty good ideas. I don't know where to start, but I'm thinking there has got to be something we can all do to get more involved than by just posting our wish lists on this board :lol: Voices in unison are much stronger than those that stand alone.

Schneider(my employer), I work at SLI and since we are moving I would love to see us relocated downtown.

From Richard Ryman' Column in the Press-Gazette:
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080601/GPG0703/806010669/1247/GPG03

Children's Museum
The Children's Museum of Green Bay is on track for a spring 2009 opening, said executive director Toni Burnett.

A mid-July groundbreaking is planned to formally kick off construction, which in fact has already begun with the manufacture of prefabricated pieces for the building, which will include a two-level parking garage.

Museum supporters have raised $2.2 million of the $3.8 million construction cost.

"We are continuing to fund raise," Burnett said.

The museum will be on Pine Street in downtown Green Bay and is part of the River Center project that is making use of the former Younkers department store site.

Contact Burnett at gbc museum@yahoo.com

AND also in the Press-Gazette, news on more jobs for downtown:
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080601/GPG03/806010674/1247

TV stations consolidate accounting at WBAY
Young Broadcasting Inc. pleased with labor force
By Erinn Connor • eaconnor@greenbaypressgazette.com • June 1, 2008


Green Bay was selected as a central location of accounting services for Young Broadcasting Inc., parent company of WBAY, Channel 2.


The newly created Station Accounting Services subsidiary will consolidate the accounting for nine television stations at the Green Bay site, and it will employ 20 accountants.

"There was a big availability with labor force here," said Peggy Wilcox, who was appointed director of station accounting services. "We've been pleased with the quality of labor force from the local colleges and technical colleges."

All 20 positions were filled locally with employees who graduated from both four-year colleges and two-year technical schools.

The consolidation, which began in February, will be phased in. All accounting operations were relocated to Green Bay on May 29. Jim Morgan, CFO of Young Broadcasting, said the consolidation allows accounting activities to become centralized for better efficiency.

Wilcox, current director of finance for WBAY, will report to Young Broadcasting offices in New York, where the company is based. She will oversee the accounting centralized in Green Bay.

Green Bay also was chosen for the site of the accounting subsidiary because of the available facility, Wilcox said. The new accounting subsidiary will be housed at the WBAY offices in downtown Green Bay. It is taking the place of Midwest Communications — owner of WIXX (101.1 FM), WTAQ (1360 AM) and WNCY (100.3 FM) radio stations — which formerly occupied the second floor of the building.

"(The new jobs) will help downtown," Wilcox said. "It'll be good for the area."

I work at SLI and since we are moving I would love to see us relocated downtown.


My office is also in the process of finding a new location. We need about 10,000 sq ft of office space. I've been pushing hard for downtown, and have been surprised to see that lease prices for downtown are higher than other areas. Trying to keep it to $14/ft/yr, & many locations downtown are either closer to $19/ft or in line with the $14/ft but are raw spaces & have no build out allowances.

Truthfully, if there is space in Ashwaubenon or Depere that is essentially move in ready, how can we justify either spending more per foot for the lease or putting $150,000 into a building just to get started?


I think we all see the potential for downtown, but in the current state, I really think that there needs to be an incentive for businesses to move downtown. Right now, it may not be WORSE than other locations, but I don't think it's any BETTER. At the very least, leases need to be competitive with the business parks that are in the burbs.

I said it the other day, but in my mind it's all about building momentum, & right now it seems like some of that has stalled.

"Look up Harrisburg, PA on emporis and you'll crap ur pants at the size of the CBD, and its population - 50,000."

Yep..looking at the pics now. Based on some shots of DT you'd consider this to be a city of 175-200,000.

Proof it's not so much about population as much as how space is developed.

For example.....every time a company in GB builds it's HQ it builds some rinky 4story building out in the burbs.

If GB did things like Chicago you'd have 'AMS Tower' or 'Shopko Center' DOWNTOWN. These buildings would be 15-20 floors and house 1 primary company and 3 or 4 smaller companies/banks with retail on the main floor.

Of course you can't go back and redo it and many of these companies are in buildings that are decades out from being replaced but it's still the big thorn in our cities side and ATTITUDES need to change.

Still,even the companies that have gone DT in the last 5 years are still building 5 floor buildings.

With DT 'boxed in' why not go for density? DT needs some more public spaces,a square,maybe a fountain where people can grab a mag and some coffee at Bosses and enjoy the summer air on a stone bench.

With DT GB it feels like a game of SimCity where you have 3 or 4 people all playing on the same map with no coordination or common sense as to where things are being developed.

In my GB dreams I look down Jefferson towards Pine and see something along the lines of this:
http://i30.tinypic.com/2heatkp.jpg

Could have happened but it never will because old habbits and ways of thinking aren't changing....the poeple who 'get it' aren't plentiful enough I fear.

How about driving over the Mason St. bridge and seeing something like this:
http://i30.tinypic.com/27zjfa8.jpg



How about standing outside the museum looking back towards the east side and seeing this:
http://i32.tinypic.com/111i3w8.jpg


How about seeing this from your room atop the Hotel Sierra:
http://i30.tinypic.com/5x4b2s.jpg






There are people here who have the vision and attitude to make GB a vibrant CITY (rather than the 'big town' it is) but for some reason the message isn't getting through or the folks at the top aren't doing what they need to to tie all of this together. I know,easier said than done,etc but it IS being DONE in many,many cities across the country but NOT in GB and if you are watching what's been going on you are seeing the same crap over and over again.

Look up Harrisburg, PA on emporis and you'll crap ur pants at the size of the CBD, and its population - 50,000.

(its hot down here)

I just looked & I think I need that product I saw in a SNL commercial...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nsi4NYYYxyE

The thing to remember though is that Harrisburg has a metro population of 656,000 compared to Green Bay's 300,000. I would think that if Green Bay had that many people in the area that we would have no choice but to build up the downtown. At least I'd hope so. Can you imagine if we had that many people and didn't have a larger downtown and it was just sprawl. It would take an hour to get from one side of town to the other.

Although I do like what they did with there downtown as can be seen from the picture below. Wouldn't this be a nice view looking down Washington from a condo in Astor Place.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/ff/Market_Square_in_Harrisburg.jpg

My office is also in the process of finding a new location. We need about 10,000 sq ft of office space. I've been pushing hard for downtown, and have been surprised to see that lease prices for downtown are higher than other areas. Trying to keep it to $14/ft/yr, & many locations downtown are either closer to $19/ft or in line with the $14/ft but are raw spaces & have no build out allowances.

Truthfully, if there is space in Ashwaubenon or Depere that is essentially move in ready, how can we justify either spending more per foot for the lease or putting $150,000 into a building just to get started?


I think we all see the potential for downtown, but in the current state, I really think that there needs to be an incentive for businesses to move downtown. Right now, it may not be WORSE than other locations, but I don't think it's any BETTER. At the very least, leases need to be competitive with the business parks that are in the burbs.

I said it the other day, but in my mind it's all about building momentum, & right now it seems like some of that has stalled.

The market dictates the price.

And if what you are saying is true, that is a remarkable turnaround from just 5ish years ago where you could get downtown office space for next to nothing, but I haven't looked at prices since I was debating on opening a business after I graduated from college.

The thing to remember though is that Harrisburg has a metro population of 656,000 compared to Green Bay's 300,000. I would think that if Green Bay had that many people in the area that we would have no choice but to build up the downtown.

But consider the Harrisburg-Carlisle-Lebanon PA metro area is a string of cities about 50 miles long to make the 600,000 population.

Green Bay and Appleton for some reason are NOT considered part of the same "metro area" (census MSA) for some reason...even though they are only 25 -30 miles apart. If you wanted to compare "apples to apples" you could include Oshkosh, which would bring the "Fox Cities" as a string of cities about 50 miles long (like the Harrisburg-Carlsile-Lebanon metro area). Add the Green Bay Metro area plus Appleton-Oshkosh metro areas (a bunch of almost blended cities strung 50 miles along the Fox River) and we are almost to a population of 700,000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_census_statistical_areas).

Want another city about Green Bay size with a much better skyline? You don't have to go far from Harrisburg. Google "Erie PA" skyline. Another city about 100,000 / 250k metro with a pretty decent skyline.

There are oodles of examples of other cities the size of Green Bay which have a much "better" downtown (or at least with taller buildings). So for people to say Green Bay isin't "worthy" of a lousy 17 story buiding, they just don't know what they're talking about. It's more about how we value the land downtown. In Green Bay, the downtown is shit on for the most part.

Not to mention Harrisburg, being the capital of the 6th most populous state with more then 12 Million. There will be more office demand and apartments that go along with this. The tallest building is 25 floors or so, but that houses Penn Dept of Education and Banking. I know some of you posters that been here as long as I have and we have talked about other smaller cities such as Rochester a half dozen times. I just wish our city leaders did not tear down all of the mid rises that we once had last century in the 50s-70s and put in surface parking lots. Downtown had more density back then.

I think we would all agree that if we had a "do over" with downtown we would take it. For whatever reason GB has been decimated over the years, much more then other compairable cities. There are a ton of smaller cities all over the midwest that have a much more robust and vibrant downtown then Green Bay. None of this we can change. So how do we move forward? I think we expect leadership to drive the ship, yet as history tells up that rarely has worked. I think we need business leaders to step up and drive the growth and to some extent we have seen this with Nicolet Bank, Baylake Bank, APAC and many other small firms. We cannot change the past, but I know that many companies house offices all over the place, think Associated and Humana. Green Bay has not faired well at retaining national HQ so I think we need to focus on organic growth or regional expansion of a major companies.

I think that most people here understand that building and sq. ft. cost of a green field development only tells half the picture. Sure the cost to the business is going to be less on paper but you must also look at the costs involved in infastructure expansion and maintance and all the costs associated that are bore by the tax payer. People rarely complain about tif being used for green field development where growth will occur anyways and is still subsidised by taxes.

I also think that disputing some facts of other cities will not move us to a better place. Other citys can act as a reference point as to where we can be but lets not dwell on the past...

Also, because Pennsylvania state law *prohibits* cities from annexing any land, and has done so for MANY years, the City of Harrisburg covers a ridiculously tiny percentage of its metro area. It would be like the City of Green Bay having never annexed the Preble and Fort Howard areas.

Mike

I know the pics are of poor quality, but driving at 65 and taking pics usually do not mix. I must say I am impressed at how many lights they are putting up. Basically it is almost the whole stretch of the bridge between Webster and Ft. Atkinson.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r3/GreenBayWI/43-2.jpg

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r3/GreenBayWI/43-1.jpg


Weatherbug Webcam

http://weather.weatherbug.com/WI/Green%20Bay-weather/weather-cams/local-cams.html?zcode=z6286&camera_id=GRNTB

Double post....SSC server was down.

Evening everyone, passing through memphis, goin to atlanta for tomorororwowoworowow... Atlanta, the city that dubbed itself "too busy to hate," during the segregation era...now its more like "too busy driving, to hate."

Jerkylips, the vid was removed...is that the one about "oops i crapped my pants, diapers?" good stuff...

yea i know harrisburg has a bigger metro and is capital, but i usually do very vague generalizations lol... but keep in mind that when both cities started years ago, there were no metros. and look when GB was founded, 1600's??? and GB's location on water was/is important...Its kinda funny that Sturgeon bay has a ship building presence and GB merely receives freight.

My comment about Astor - i guess what i mean is that the population is mostly there/here, but i guess the people who are going to put down 1 to 2 million for a condo in a mid/hi-rise would argue, "well if il spend that much on real-estate then i might as well deserve acreage with that." sometimes i assume stuff which i know makes an ass outa u and me.

I cant believe the grand union is dead, i thought that for sure would have made it. But the people who said it before that N.E wisconsin has a conservative mentality are absolutely right.

Jerkylips, the vid was removed...is that the one about "oops i crapped my pants, diapers?" good stuff...

yep, that was the one--youtube is firewalled at work so I had to hope it worked...

My comment about Astor - i guess what i mean is that the population is mostly there/here, but i guess the people who are going to put down 1 to 2 million for a condo in a mid/hi-rise would argue, "well if il spend that much on real-estate then i might as well deserve acreage with that." sometimes i assume stuff which i know makes an ass outa u and me.

I would say either acreage or at least a view.. Who is going to put down that kind of money to look out the window & see beautiful...........coal piles..

If it were me (and I had the money, which I don't) I would expect a commitment to do something on the other side of the river as well. Obviously not immediately, but at some point...

p.s. I was driving on N. Broadway last night & started thinking about that homeless shelter. It seems like the city thought, "we'll just hide it back here so no one has to see it", & now that area is set for development. I wonder how that structure will affect the development on the Larsen property?

got a new camera for graduation, and decided to get a couple of pics of the two new projects...
A couple of the Broadway Development
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll136/gcampion/SSC%20June%2008/DSCN00251.jpg,
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll136/gcampion/SSC%20June%2008/DSCN00261.jpg,
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll136/gcampion/SSC%20June%2008/DSCN00271.jpg,
And a few of the RiverCenter project:
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll136/gcampion/SSC%20June%2008/DSCN00301.jpg,
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll136/gcampion/SSC%20June%2008/DSCN00321.jpg,
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll136/gcampion/SSC%20June%2008/DSCN00351.jpg,
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll136/gcampion/SSC%20June%2008/DSCN00331.jpg,

Sorry they are so large, I realized I didn't reduce them enough. Wondering what everyone thinks of the architecture of the RiverCenter portion. I know this is not supposed to be the prime portion of the building, but I guess I was maybe hoping for a little bit more. I'm not a big fan of the brown features between some windows and at the top portion of the building. However, in contrast, congratulations to Vetter for getting this one out of the ground and very nearly externally completed. I suppose we should wait until it is finished before we pass judgment on it. (p.s. these were also taken on a very dreary Wednesday)

I would say either acreage or at least a view.. Who is going to put down that kind of money to look out the window & see beautiful...........coal piles..

If it were me (and I had the money, which I don't) I would expect a commitment to do something on the other side of the river as well. Obviously not immediately, but at some point...

p.s. I was driving on N. Broadway last night & started thinking about that homeless shelter. It seems like the city thought, "we'll just hide it back here so no one has to see it", & now that area is set for development. I wonder how that structure will affect the development on the Larsen property?

http://www.astorplacecondos.com/interiors.htm

I think the views would be spectacular :)

I'm pretty sure you are right about the homeless shelter.

The building is plain looking but not an eyesore, and as long as it's run right, it is more of a benefit to the area than people think. Better to have the homeless in a shelter with guidance and programs than out there sitting in front of some business begging patrons for coin.

I'm curious though, I noticed that the auto repair shop that was on the SE corner of Velp and Broadway was razed. Is that going to be part of the Larsen site redevelopment or a separate thing? I think some of the single family homes on the west side of Broadway could go as well, basically bring in some new rowhomes or other Broadway/Mainstreet type buildings.

Edit: Link (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=44.522988~-88.016641&style=h&lvl=18&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1) to map of area I'm referring to with shelter in top right corner.

got a new camera for graduation, and decided to get a couple of pics of the two new projects... Sorry they are so large, I realized I didn't reduce them enough. Wondering what everyone thinks of the architecture of the RiverCenter portion. I know this is not supposed to be the prime portion of the building, but I guess I was maybe hoping for a little bit more. I'm not a big fan of the brown features between some windows and at the top portion of the building. However, in contrast, congratulations to Vetter for getting this one out of the ground and very nearly externally completed. I suppose we should wait until it is finished before we pass judgment on it. (p.s. these were also taken on a very dreary Wednesday)

It looks like another building designed for lower income residents. 400 N. Monroe Plaza. Not that I’m not for providing affordable housing for lower income people, that is and should be a component of the downtown, however the architecture leaves so much to be desired. I know Vetter didn’t design it be he had to have the final sign off saying yes that fits or not that doesn’t fit into the overall vision. Apparently, most see downtown and Green Bay as a whole as 2nd class architecture. However, I wouldn’t even consider this 2nd class. More like an afterthought to milk as much money as they could for profit. 20 years from now people will look at this and say, “what the heck is that building doing on the riverfront?” Heck, maybe won’t even take that long. This is not an iconic building or a showpiece. And if this is all we get from the entire Vetter Vision for downtown, I would rather not have had it. I guess a single word would sum it up, Uninspired.

[QUOTE=sr22ger;21440905

I think the views would be spectacular :)

I'm pretty sure you are right about the homeless shelter.

QUOTE]

I don't disagree with you, but to me both "issues" have something in common--they affect the perception of the value of these properties. I'm not saying that the views on the astor site don't look nice, but I would stop short of spectacular.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3042/2553628647_3501bb62ba_o.jpg

About the shelter, we all know that people have prejudices. I'm not disputing what you are saying, but do you think that the majority of potential businesses & tenants of the Larsen property would feel the same? I'm not really sure..

Its kinda weird how milwaukee's DT is right on the lakefront with a string of highrises following north and industry is a little more inland in the menomonee valley, whereas GB's DT is set a little inland and more industry and a railyard is more towards the bay. Both cities have rivers that can/are utilized for the industry. Just obviously different planning.

good pics BTW, rivercenter looks like a hotel...

Looking at the pics my first thought was 'ho-hum'. Then I thought,well,lets be fair and wait til it's finished. It's like judging a music album when the band only has 4 songs done.

But still,I'm with the rest of you...uninspired is the key word. Dull,'typical',average,etc.
Pretty much standard GB fare.

I do have to tip my hat..at least something is finally being built and I'm sure it will be a wonderful structure when done but again..this goes back to why we are in this mess. You have prime time land with a golden chance to help reshape our identity/skyline for decades to come and THAT is what you sign off on?

It's not bad but's just underwhelming and I by no means advocate style over substance but yeah,ya know..sometimes a little flash n' dash is a healthy thing and I have yet to see anything DT that makes me go 'WOW,NOW they've got it!"

Grand Union and Astor are on that path and of course one is dead and the other is ill.

Same old song and dance.

Its kinda weird how milwaukee's DT is right on the lakefront with a string of highrises following north and industry is a little more inland in the menomonee valley, whereas GB's DT is set a little inland and more industry and a railyard is more towards the bay. Both cities have rivers that can/are utilized for the industry. Just obviously different planning.
Well the 2 cities really are not that similar but do share the industrial expansion along the rivers, In Milwaukee the industrial area is further south of CBD, which really benefits from being on the Lake and not the bay of Green Bay, I would bet in both cases the mouths of the rivers were low /swampy land which at the time wasn't really all that valuable. For whatever reason, when Ft. Howard was sighted it was the best location. I really don't think all that much planning went into it other then geographic conditions.

But still,I'm with the rest of you...uninspired is the key word. Dull,'typical',average,etc.
Pretty much standard GB fare.

I do have to tip my hat..at least something is finally being built and I'm sure it will be a wonderful structure when done but again..this goes back to why we are in this mess. You have prime time land with a golden chance to help reshape our identity/skyline for decades to come and THAT is what you sign off on?

It's not bad but's just underwhelming and I by no means advocate style over substance but yeah,ya know..sometimes a little flash n' dash is a healthy thing and I have yet to see anything DT that makes me go 'WOW,NOW they've got it!"

Well I have to agree that its not all that flashy. I really do think that its design was intended to blend with the cream colored portion of the younkers bldg. and if and when the loft condo part gets built I think if will fit together nicely. The design also had the existing framework that they are reusing to contend with, so I will withhold my thoughts until I see the childrens museum part and hopefully Astor complement this building. At least they didn't use vinyl siding like most of suburbia...

Low Income Housing Architecture

The comments about the River Center housing made me think about the low income high rises of the 1960s. Much has been written about how the bland and even prison-like architecture and layout of those buildings contributed to the feelings of hopelessness for their inhabitants.

I would hope that the future residents of River Center would not be more likely to commit crimes or make poor personal choices just because they are not inspired by their living space. However, a more interesting building just might raise people's spirits -- including those of passersby that do not even live there.

We could say similar things about the homeless shelter, although I agree that any space with services is better than underneath the Tilleman Bridge or some other public space.


Coal Piles

I, for one, wouldn't mind coal piles and other industrial views -- at least in the short term -- from my Astor Place window. All along, Vetter has talked about the Fox River as a "working river" to manage people's expectations about what they would see outside their condo. Watching drawbridges open for large ships is more pleasant than staring at black coal piles, true, but in blue collar Green Bay it is all part of the package.

I would say either acreage or at least a view.. Who is going to put down that kind of money to look out the window & see beautiful...........coal piles..

If it were me (and I had the money, which I don't) I would expect a commitment to do something on the other side of the river as well. Obviously not immediately, but at some point...

Well, the people who value having a large plot of land and maximum square footage weren't ever going to move downtown anyway. The people who would buy are those who want to be in Green Bay, but also want to live in an urban environment.

I have a very good friend who rents in Manhattan. His wife's and his apartment is small, doesn't have a view, and rents for over $2,000 a month. This can happen because you are essentially paying for the environment in which the apartment sits. Now, Green Bay is nothing like New York, but the point is that there's a continuum of people who want to / can afford to live in places from a log cabin in the woods to New York City, and you can't select one set of values to explain why someone would or wouldn't buy somewhere different. "Why would anyone spend millions on a big house in the country, there's nothing to do and you can't even walk to get a cup of coffee or a newspaper?" From the urbanist's perspective, what gives a place value is different.

I have a lot of confidence that the people exist to live in Astor Place. Do they feel confident in the current real estate market? I don't know. Also, when Vetter calls the people buying now "urban pioneers," the term is very apt. These people are also buying into a vision of what the downtown can become and is becoming. But even in it's current state, I know people who have moved downtown and love it there specifically for it's urban characteristics.

It looks like another building designed for lower income residents. 400 N. Monroe Plaza. Not that I’m not for providing affordable housing for lower income people, that is and should be a component of the downtown, however the architecture leaves so much to be desired...

I really do think that its design was intended to blend with the cream colored portion of the younkers bldg. and if and when the loft condo part gets built I think if will fit together nicely.

Exactly. The building will make more sense in it's context with the rest of River Center -- it's industrial/warehouse looking. Not to say it's perfect or it couldn't have been better, but I actually think it's reasonably handsome. Compared to 400 N. Monroe, I do think it's more interesting in the greater color contrast, the ribbing on the metal portions, the overhang that there will be above the street level, having street level retail to begin with, and the balconies (provided they are done well). There are a lot of details that help out. I'd much prefer a building like this than one that cheaply tries to be something its not.

The comments about the River Center housing made me think about the low income high rises of the 1960s. Much has been written about how the bland and even prison-like architecture and layout of those buildings contributed to the feelings of hopelessness for their inhabitants.

I would hope that the future residents of River Center would not be more likely to commit crimes or make poor personal choices just because they are not inspired by their living space. However, a more interesting building just might raise people's spirits -- including those of passersby that do not even live there.

I'd agree, except:

A) This isn't a housing project. These people aren't in the same economic position as those in the projects you are referring to, who were also lacking hope for reasons beyond the architecture they lived in.

B) More importantly, there no concentration here. It's one building which exists in a increasingly dynamic setting.

There's a saying that poverty doesn't produce violence, concentrated poverty does. In this case, there is neither poverty nor a concentration of one income level.

Dan - thanks for the insight on this portion of RiverCenter. I had forgotten about some of the other components of the building as well as its place as a part of the whole project. (I guess that means we need to hope even more that the entire RiverCenter project is completed so that we can see the entire vision in reality). I was way too quick to judge the first, under-construction building.

^^ No problem. I mean, the first portion is fairly plain, and the riverfront is going to need a couple of signature buildings on the Astor Place site and Site 4. So, I guess one way of looking at it is that we're using up our plain, fits-in-without-drawing-attention-to-itself quota along the river. But if we can get some more dramatic buildings as well (I think Astor Place would do this), I think this building will be very pleasing and a good reflection of Green Bay's blue-collar heritage.

Exactly. The building will make more sense in it's context with the rest of River Center -- it's industrial/warehouse looking. Not to say it's perfect or it couldn't have been better, but I actually think it's reasonably handsome. Compared to 400 N. Monroe, I do think it's more interesting in the greater color contrast, the ribbing on the metal portions, the overhang that there will be above the street level, having street level retail to begin with, and the balconies (provided they are done well). There are a lot of details that help out. I'd much prefer a building like this than one that cheaply tries to be something its not.

This building will not have street level retail. Only on the Boardwalk side The street sides will have a computer room, leasing office for the apartments, a garage door to the dumpster, and 1st floor apartments. So Although yes the dynamic is different then say 400 N. Monroe Plaza, the activation that retail would do that creates a unique niche or street level wow factor will not be present.

^^ I don not believe you are correct. In the latest version presented, my understanding was that the rental offices etc would not be on the Washington St. side any longer, but instead that would be retail. The Flatley Ct. side would have the garage and the 1st level "live/work" units. I shall try to find details of this one way or another.

I guess this would qualify as the ULTIMATE wishful thinking..

First to name the city get's...um....an "attaboy" from jerkylips.. :lol:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3129/2557779012_cc669f9356_b.jpg

^^
My guess would be Shanghai.

hong kong - bank of china tower

hong kong - bank of china tower

as promised......ATTABOY!!

Has anyone checked out the Astor website recently. It just brings you to Jen Kuo's page and you are no longer able to look up info on Astor. You just have to email her instead. Does this mean that they probably stopped selling units until they determined if Vetter will get the private investment or not?

Has anyone checked out the Astor website recently. It just brings you to Jen Kuo's page and you are no longer able to look up info on Astor. You just have to email her instead. Does this mean that they probably stopped selling units until they determined if Vetter will get the private investment or not?

Not sure what you are looking at. Seems to be the same for me yet. Unless I'm missing something.

http://www.astorplacecondos.com/pricing.htm

nail - head

Green Bay wonders why they can't develop the downtown.......here is one of the reasons.

Some bright bulb decided it was a good idea to punish all downtown bars and hotels because of a few bad apples. And so far it has been a miserable failure.

From todays PG one owner called it what it is, extortion:

"It's like the Mafia, where they come to your door and say 'You'd better pay up, because we know when your child leaves from school and the route she takes,'" said Cervantes, a native Sicilian. "But whether I agree or disagree, what difference does it make? It's the law."

And then we had the enabler:

Jeff Mirkes, head of Downtown Green Bay Inc., which represents the downtown businesses, sympathizes but stresses that the district "take some responsibility for the problems downtown and work at addressing them."

Maybe if the city did its job and held these places responsible, but we all know what is really behind this, keeping the few establishments open in desperation to make downtown look like it has life. Maybe get rid of the problems may be a little more attractive to business but why move into a downtown where you have to PAY to have the police do their jobs and you still have the same results.

Once gain showing the "progressive" thinking they are trying to force upon a conservative community is failing.

Sr22ger- when i just went to www.astorplacecondos.com it gave me her page. i still had the link you put up in my history so i went there and that worked, but just to get to astor's homepage no longer worked for me.

Why even have a downtown?

I'm serious.

Why bother?

Nobody wants it. It seems the folks of the greater GB area all want the 3 bedroom house in Howard and the family business can go somewhere on the pit known as Oneida St.

And there are plenty of places to eat and drink around Ashwaubenon and the bank is in De Pere and..and..and......

I mean really. GB should do sometihng bold and get RID of it's downtown.

Nobody wants to live there...nobody has any sense of how to open and KEEP open a business there.

People here are too damn lazy to go DT to shop or eat. Oh no..I might have to walk a block from my parking lot..oh no!

This town is just absurd sometimes.

Just pull the plug. Build some nice boring tan brick 4 story run of the mill office building out in Ashwaubenon and put the city and county gov. offices in it.

And lets get rid of the metro busses too. Nobody uses them..the routes haven't been revamped in 20 years and half the time the bus is either 5 minutes early or 5 minutes late and you miss it anyway. Anybody who works after 9pm can't use the bus to get home anyway. The DT trolly doesn't even go over the freakin bridge(s).

Just have broadway be a one strip 'downtown' like Shawano has and be done with it.

Turn the east side of DT into another environment destroying paper mill or something.


Obviously I'm not serious but then again. I bet lots of folks wouldn't mind one bit if DT was more or less eliminated.

We can go back to Little House on The Prairie days because that is the mindset of this freakin' city on most issues.

When Lambeau needs to be completely replaced in 2028 and the el-cheapos cry about a 2 cent per $1000 tax and the team moves to the 350,000 pop subburb of Chicago known as Kenosha then GB will be nothing but a damn prairie.

:lol: There is some truth to your sarcasm. Green Bay isn't the only city in Wisconsin that in truth has a less then spectacular downtown area. Maybe Green Bay has a terminal case of Wisconsinshittydowntownitis.Why even have a downtown?

I'm serious.

Why bother?

Nobody wants it. It seems the folks of the greater GB area all want the 3 bedroom house in Howard and the family business can go somewhere on the pit known as Oneida St.

And there are plenty of places to eat and drink around Ashwaubenon and the bank is in De Pere and..and..and......

I mean really. GB should do sometihng bold and get RID of it's downtown.

Nobody wants to live there...nobody has any sense of how to open and KEEP open a business there.

People here are too damn lazy to go DT to shop or eat. Oh no..I might have to walk a block from my parking lot..oh no!

This town is just absurd sometimes.

Just pull the plug. Build some nice boring tan brick 4 story run of the mill office building out in Ashwaubenon and put the city and county gov. offices in it.

And lets get rid of the metro busses too. Nobody uses them..the routes haven't been revamped in 20 years and half the time the bus is either 5 minutes early or 5 minutes late and you miss it anyway. Anybody who works after 9pm can't use the bus to get home anyway. The DT trolly doesn't even go over the freakin bridge(s).

Just have broadway be a one strip 'downtown' like Shawano has and be done with it.

Turn the east side of DT into another environment destroying paper mill or something.


Obviously I'm not serious but then again. I bet lots of folks wouldn't mind one bit if DT was more or less eliminated.

We can go back to Little House on The Prairie days because that is the mindset of this freakin' city on most issues.

When Lambeau needs to be completely replaced in 2028 and the el-cheapos cry about a 2 cent per $1000 tax and the team moves to the 350,000 pop subburb of Chicago known as Kenosha then GB will be nothing but a damn prairie.

For anyone who may not have seen this, today's PG had an article referencing a survey being conducted to evaluate the current environment in Green Bay for young professionals.

It is open to the public, so it may be a good opportunity to voice some educated opinions on the state of the city as it relates to downtown redevelopment. Who knows, maybe someone will listen for once... :wink2:
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080609/GPG03/806090550/1247

Are they still panning something for that lot across from the Bellin? The lot that was under Jadin going to be used for our 'signature 20 story tower'?

If so...I think it should house a hi-rise ultra modern hotel. I mean a super kick butt hotel...the kind of place rockbands and NFL teams would stay at.

Super plush but not too much so that it's empty 90% of the time because the rv and camping show crowd can't afford it.

I'm thinking 15 floors w/ maybe some retail/eats on the base level and maybe some luxury extended-stay 'apartments' up top.

Something glassy and reflective but not too 'big city' for the Mayberry segment of our population.

I say this because retail isn't gonna work until people live DT.
People won't live DT until more high mass jobs come (like APAC).

GB needs a signature hotel. It could be somewhat mixed use....w/ the retail and a few apartments,etc.

A 20 story office tower won't work..not if Grand Union failed. A predominately residential obviously won't work as seen w/ Astor.

What else will work that we need that might actually get built that would serve a need?

I think too...if people won't live DT perhaps they will at least stay there when they come to worship Lambeau and at least there you get to funnel folks towards our DT shops and eateries.

One thing that wisconsin in general is missing are hotels. Thats one thing i notice traveling the country is that other states have a lot more hotels. I noticed that milwaukee is ramping up its hotel sector after realizing they couldnt hold the NCAA for Basketball a couple years ago due to not meeting a requirement of having so many hotel rooms. HWY60 and US41 interchange in slinger by milwaukee has no hotels, it is high traffic area, and that type of area in a diff state would have probably 5 or 6 hotels.
And green bay having a professional team REALLY needs more hotels to cater to those crowds and beyond.

One thing that wisconsin in general is missing are hotels. Thats one thing i notice traveling the country is that other states have a lot more hotels. I noticed that milwaukee is ramping up its hotel sector after realizing they couldnt hold the NCAA for Basketball a couple years ago due to not meeting a requirement of having so many hotel rooms. HWY60 and US41 interchange in slinger by milwaukee has no hotels, it is high traffic area, and that type of area in a diff state would have probably 5 or 6 hotels.
And green bay having a professional team REALLY needs more hotels to cater to those crowds and beyond.

I'm not sure about this.. Other than the 8 days a year that all hotels are full for Packers games, people coming in from out of town probably want to stay close to whatever it is they're doing. Right now there's not a lot going on downtown, & there is already the former regency suites/embassy suites (forget what it's called now...sierra something, i think). If there are other hotels available & downtown is not yet what we want it to be...who is going to want to stay down there?

Also, don't forget about the plans to renovate Port Plaza Towers convert it back into a hotel. Even with the redevelopment, not sure if our downtown would support 3 big hotels.

In my opinion, the #1 most important thing to get things rolling is to get more people working downtown, & other things will follow.

One thing that wisconsin in general is missing are hotels. Thats one thing i notice traveling the country is that other states have a lot more hotels. I noticed that milwaukee is ramping up its hotel sector after realizing they couldnt hold the NCAA for Basketball a couple years ago due to not meeting a requirement of having so many hotel rooms. HWY60 and US41 interchange in slinger by milwaukee has no hotels, it is high traffic area, and that type of area in a diff state would have probably 5 or 6 hotels.
And green bay having a professional team REALLY needs more hotels to cater to those crowds and beyond.

Do you know why there is no hotels at hwy 60 in Slinger??? Because there is nothing to do there. Hwy 60 and 41 is not high traffic...it is not medium traffic...it is low traffic and is not a destination. If you feel there is a need, put a business plan together, go to a bank, and they will give a loan if you can sell the idea.
The same thing applies with DT GB. People who come to Green Bay do their business away from downtown. Packers, business, uwgb, casino, etc all have their central attractions/ locations away from green bay and there is no sense why upscale hotels should set up camp in DT. There is a reason why there are always hotels next to airports, sporting venues, and schools. The reason is convenience and demand. No upscale hotel would want to go downtown and put their reputation as an upscale hotel next to a mound of coal. Simple as that

Hi--A few replies--

First it sure is great to see some new contributors coming strong lately! Chicagoenvy--I loved your sardonic post from a couple days ago. I wanted to reply with something equally witty and thought-provoking but I'm too lazy I guess. Maybe later here or on the blog.

I tried the "Current" young professional survey but couldn't get in..Ah well I'm on the upper range in age of who they accept anyway (20-40)...So what happens when I turn 40 in a few years? Do they throw me out on the street?

As for "Site 4" (the parcel across from Bellin, next to Nicolet Bank)...I have not heard anything lately and I have little hope for it. Sorry, keepin' it real.

As for Hotels---When the Packers hosted the NFC championship game earlier this year, I saw the numbers of how many more hotel rooms there are in GB area now compared to the last time they hosted in 1997...I can't remember how many more hotel rooms there are now... very surprisingly many.
As for new hotels downtown: THere may be a bit of demand for that. Travellers from larger cities might think they want to stay downtown, central to stuff. The good hotels seem to be doing really well. There is at least a little more than coal piles--it's fun to say that but keepin' it real, there are also a number of pretty significant banks, businesses and other corporations downtown. We just tend to overlook some of them 'cause they're not "sexy" (WPS, P&G, and so on).

As for what we can do now--More jobs downtown are one thing, we also need more downtown residents. There is much untapped potential here, particularly now that gas prices are shooting through the roof. People living out on the fringe are finding out that they are absolutely tied to their vehicles, families like mine need two..we're now paying hundreds of dollars per month more to try keep this lifestyle going in gas and other things, even in little Green Bay. So many who think they're being "conservative" by ditching the downtown are not seeing the big picture. More on this later.

I found a link from wbay.com that got me to a new riverfront development in Appleton:
http://www.riverheath.com/siteplans.php
Anyone heard of this? I bring it up cuz it made me wonder...could something like this have been a better idea for bringing more residents to green bay's downtown? I like how it seems that this project is really getting the community involved.
Anyone know how people are liking the riverfront lofts? Seems like they were built and occupied with no further fanfare.

New article in the PG today... don't have time to comment at the moment...

June 11, 2008

Green Bay gets greener with bike program

Free bicycle use aims to reduce pollution, traffic

By Paul Srubas
psrubas@greenbaypressgazette.com

Starting this summer, you should be able to get around downtown Green Bay for free by use of a city-owned bicycle.

Green Bay plans to launch a bike program by the end of this month or early July, Mayor Jim Schmitt said.

The free service is intended to offer exercise, reduce pollution and fuel consumption, and reduce traffic congestion as part of the Sustainable Greater Green Bay effort, Schmitt said.

The sustainability program launched by Schmitt has encouraged hybrid cars by offering premium parking, helped teach people how to make and use rain barrels, and promoted the use of energy-saving compact fluorescent light bulbs.

The group now plans to offer a bike program similar to one offered on college campuses around the world, and in hip cities likes Copenhagen, Amsterdam, Seattle, Denver and Madison.

"We sometimes may have the image of being a very conservative community, which we are, but … this is a progressive step," Schmitt said.

It's a move intended to complement the city's growing waterfront and further development of a bicycle trail system, he said.

"You talk about quality of life — this dovetails into what we're trying to do to make Green Bay a special place, an urban environment," he said. "It doesn't always have to be a Seattle or San Francisco that does that — it can be Green Bay."

With gas approaching $4 per gallon, the program comes just in time to help people save money, Schmitt said.

The plan calls for city workers to select 30 bikes from the hundreds of stolen, lost and abandoned ones that police recover every year. Those bikes typically are auctioned off once a year when police are unable to find their rightful owners.

Selected bikes will be refurbished and painted an easily recognizable green that will identify them as being part of the program.

The bikes will be set out on racks at six stations — the downtown library, City Hall, the main bus terminal, the corner of East Walnut and South Washington streets, the Neville Public Museum and on the Fox River Trail behind the Green Bay Area Chamber of Commerce.

Anyone who needs a ride will be able to hop on one of the bikes and pedal away but is asked to return the bike to one of the stations by the end of the day.

The hope is that the city's downtown work force and others will take their cars or city Metro into the downtown for the work day and then use the Green Bike program for lunch-period exercise or to hop across town for lunch or for meetings and not have to use their cars.

It will be a "ride at your own risk" program, with residents encouraged to bring their own helmets. And they'll be encouraged to take locks, so they can be sure, when they bike to a destination, of having a way back to where they started from.

Schmitt said he hoped the bright green color of the bikes, as well as a general spirit of cooperation among the city's residents, would help stop the fleet from being depleted by theft, vandalism or abandonment.

If the program is successful, the city would look at expanding it, with more bikes at more stations throughout the area.

Green Bay wanted to make possible projects part of TIF area

By Richard Ryman • rryman@greenbaypressgazette.com • June 11, 2008

The Redevelopment Authority prepared for life after Washington Commons on Tuesday, approving possible tax assistance for demolition of the unused downtown mall and rebuilding of downtown streets through the property.
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T. Wall Properties of Middleton, which has a planning option for redevelopment of the mall, has not formally said what it will do, but the city wanted to make the potential projects part of the tax-increment finance district plan in anticipation of a proposal. T. Wall representatives have indicated in talks with the city that the mall, or large parts of it, will be demolished if their plans move ahead.

City Planning Director Rob Strong said the plan is to recycle as much of the building as is possible.

The authority approved amendments to the TIF District 13 plan, which now goes to the City Council for approval.

Also Tuesday, authority members approved a request by developer Paul Kaczrowski to consider TIF assistance in the development of property he owns between the Tundra Lodge Resort and Lombardi Avenue.

Strong said an agreement made at the time Tundra Lodge was built prohibited TIF assistance for outlot development. He said he could not meet with potential tenants as long as the prohibition was in place.

Strong said the city did provide TIF assistance to Kaczrowski for other projects near there, including Cambria Suites hotel and Champions sports bar.

"Paul has done some good things. It's not always easy to make the numbers work," Strong said.

Corrie McLain Campbell provided an update on the Oneida Nation Walk of Legends projects in the Lombardi Avenue area. The Walk of Legends consists of a planned 24 14-foot-high, 12-ton engraved granite-and-steel pieces in the stadium district. The art honors Green Bay Packers players and history. Campbell said 13 pieces have been installed with 11 more to go.

"We hope to get done by the end of 2009. We are ahead of schedule," she said.

The authority returned to the City Council a decision to not purchase 1209 S. Maple Ave. and re-sell it to a neighboring business. The authority earlier decided against the move, but Alderman Guy Zima during the last City Council meeting asked that it be sent back for reconsideration. Zima did not attend Tuesday's meeting.

"We have no new information to change our original motion," said Gary Delveaux, authority vice chairman.

Marecity - i never heard of it before, but about 10 minutes ago i was watching the weather channel and during the ad break, one of the ads was advertising riverheath in appleton. First time ive seen this.

I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately & want to pose a question..

In my mind, the most important thing to downtown right now is more jobs. Get people working downtown, more people will want to live downtown. More people living downtown will create more demand for retail/restaurants/entertainment downtown.

You could probably make the argument about most important being people living downtown first, but either way, more business is very important.

So that got me thinking about who/what kind of company would want to be headquartered downtown GB. Some of the major employers in the area--Schneider, Shopko, Humana, United Health...all have significant investments in their current real estate, & I would have a hard time seeing any of them moving. In fact, there was an articl in the Press Gazette not that long ago about traffic in Depere, & someone from Humana was quoted as saying, "we have no intention of moving".

So...local established companies, probably unlikely to move from the 'burbs to downtown. What about non-local companies?

Realistically, does Green Bay in general, & downtown in particular, have enough to offer to get a large-ish company to move from another city? I'm not sure.

It makes me wonder if this whole redevelopment is currently focusing on residential & retail space, hoping that will draw in other companies.. That's a pretty big gamble.

I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately & want to pose a question..

In my mind, the most important thing to downtown right now is more jobs. Get people working downtown, more people will want to live downtown. More people living downtown will create more demand for retail/restaurants/entertainment downtown.

You could probably make the argument about most important being people living downtown first, but either way, more business is very important.

So that got me thinking about who/what kind of company would want to be headquartered downtown GB. Some of the major employers in the area--Schneider, Shopko, Humana, United Health...all have significant investments in their current real estate, & I would have a hard time seeing any of them moving. In fact, there was an articl in the Press Gazette not that long ago about traffic in Depere, & someone from Humana was quoted as saying, "we have no intention of moving".

So...local established companies, probably unlikely to move from the 'burbs to downtown. What about non-local companies?

Realistically, does Green Bay in general, & downtown in particular, have enough to offer to get a large-ish company to move from another city? I'm not sure.

It makes me wonder if this whole redevelopment is currently focusing on residential & retail space, hoping that will draw in other companies.. That's a pretty big gamble.

I agree that you won't see any of the large employers move DT anytime soon, Shopko on the other hand is possiblily sitting on a gold mine in the proximity to the mall. I am not sure what opperations Shopko has here since they were purchased, so maybe they might make sense. I still think Associated Bank would fit as a large office tenant, as they seem to have offices littered all over the area. Humana I believe also has offices littered all over as well. One thing that it seems throughout history is that this area can create a growth company and expand. We maybe need to focus on startups?

As far as attracting other larger companies from other areas, It can happen but you are more likely to see a regional consolidation of small offices, like Time Warner did in Appleton, and then in that case they built out off of the highway and not downtown.

Progress will happen slowly, Downtowns developed over time out of need, if we (as a nation) can shift our transportaion policy away from overconsumption and back to the basics, downtown can and will prosper, no matter what anyone wants to focus on.

So I guess that my answer is that efficient living will come first and everything else should follow, as with anything supply and demand will work itself out.

As far as attracting other larger companies from other areas, It can happen but you are more likely to see a regional consolidation of small offices, like Time Warner did in Appleton, and then in that case they built out off of the highway and not downtown.

Progress will happen slowly, Downtowns developed over time out of need, if we (as a nation) can shift our transportaion policy away from overconsumption and back to the basics, downtown can and will prosper, no matter what anyone wants to focus on.

So I guess that my answer is that efficient living will come first and everything else should follow, as with anything supply and demand will work itself out.

I am glad at least AT&T is in downtown GB and APL. Those fools over at Time Warner building their new regional HQ....did they not know that AT&T is launching their award winning Uverse next week?:lol: I am sure switching over with better prices and technology.

Anyways in other news....What ever happen to the retail space in the Cherry Street Parking Ramp? God this city takes forever to development things. No wonder downtown is laughable....

Anyways in other news....What ever happen to the retail space in the Cherry Street Parking Ramp? God this city takes forever to development things. No wonder downtown is laughable....

From 6/10/08 RDA Meeting Minutes

R. Strong stated that the ramp space/retail space under the parking ramp at the corner of Washington and Walnut Street has been sold. Construction is expected to begin within the next few weeks.

^^ I think there were some regulatory/code hurdles to overcome with that space, which that note from RDA would seem to indicate have been overcome. Construction on that retail would be excellent to see, and yet another good sign that things continue to head in the right direction downtown, bit by bit.

From 6/10/08 RDA Meeting Minutes

R. Strong stated that the ramp space/retail space under the parking ramp at the corner of Washington and Walnut Street has been sold. Construction is expected to begin within the next few weeks.

Excellent,thanks !

Are you guys heading down to International Bayfest? Our lowsy newspaper, better known as PG sure does a horrible job of not talking about it. I understand the headlines are the devastating flooding, but they totally ignore this festival every year. I know I have seen commercials on tv, but come on. No wonder why most people never know it is going on until the word of mouth spreads around town.

Excellent,thanks !

Are you guys heading down to International Bayfest? Our lowsy newspaper, better known as PG sure does a horrible job of not talking about it. I understand the headlines are the devastating flooding, but they totally ignore this festival every year. I know I have seen commercials on tv, but come on. No wonder why most people never know it is going on until the word of mouth spreads around town.While I agree the PG is a poor excuse for a paper, since when did they become responsible for the advertising for BAYFEST? How many TV stations have covered the lead up to? Any radio coverage? Should not the responsibility fall onto the shoulders of the organization that runs Bayfest to get the word out about it? And lets be honest while Bayfest is a nice little weekend it sure ain't no Summerfest. :nuts:

I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately & want to pose a question..

In my mind, the most important thing to downtown right now is more jobs. Get people working downtown, more people will want to live downtown. More people living downtown will create more demand for retail/restaurants/entertainment downtown.

You could probably make the argument about most important being people living downtown first, but either way, more business is very important.

So that got me thinking about who/what kind of company would want to be headquartered downtown GB. Some of the major employers in the area--Schneider, Shopko, Humana, United Health...all have significant investments in their current real estate, & I would have a hard time seeing any of them moving. In fact, there was an articl in the Press Gazette not that long ago about traffic in Depere, & someone from Humana was quoted as saying, "we have no intention of moving".

So...local established companies, probably unlikely to move from the 'burbs to downtown. What about non-local companies?

Realistically, does Green Bay in general, & downtown in particular, have enough to offer to get a large-ish company to move from another city? I'm not sure.

It makes me wonder if this whole redevelopment is currently focusing on residential & retail space, hoping that will draw in other companies.. That's a pretty big gamble.

The downtown mantra is "LIVE WORK PLAY" and I don't think any one is more important than the other. Give each component equal weight & focus.

While I agree the PG is a poor excuse for a paper, since when did they become responsible for the advertising for BAYFEST? How many TV stations have covered the lead up to? Any radio coverage? Should not the responsibility fall onto the shoulders of the organization that runs Bayfest to get the word out about it? And lets be honest while Bayfest is a nice little weekend it sure ain't no Summerfest. :nuts:

I actually agree with you on this, the Bayfest organizers do not do enough to promote the festival. My wife and I had a great time there Saturday night. I was suprised by the music, a band from Milwaukee that my wife had to see, and a punk rock band led by a California blond :cheers:. A classic rock cover band was playing at the same time on a different stage as well. It was refreshing. We didn't eat at all or test out how well the carnies maintain their rides. It was a beautiful night though. Would have been cool to get to check out the new Foxy Lady for free, just didn't have time to.

^^I give the city credit for trying. This festival isn't yet the greatest thing, and it won't ever come close to Summerfest, but it's something. I didn't go this year. The last couple years I went down there with my kids and blew like $25 on just a few rides (and afterwards thought DOH! why didn't I just take my kids to Bay Beach instead of blowing my $$ on these carnies??). Plus, it seemed more like International Drunk Fest, which I'm not entirely opposed to, but for my kids it wasn't the greatest thing.

oops.


EDIT: I tried to edit my post and somehow lost it... :(

^^ You mention the trains--Are you living in the RiversEdge Apartments? I lived there too for a while. I remember rolling over in the middle of the night as a train rumbled by, thinking to myself "RailsEdge Apartments" might be a better name for the place. It was cool to be next to the river though, I liked watching the huge freighters pass right past my patio door. Also I liked hearing the bar crowds raucous coming across the river on those warm summer nights, people whooping it up on the Foxy Lady as she passed by, the clanging bells of the drawbridge. I liked taking my young daughter out for walks on the riverside trails, wishing there were more people out besides the crack addicts (are they still always hanging out in front of the museum in that little thicket next to the water?) I liked walking over to Broadway to peruse the antique store and places like that. Events like ArtStreet were fun, just because these were the times when a lot of people were out & about.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/06/16/suburb.city/index.html

Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

(CNN) -- When Shaun Yandell proposed to his longtime girlfriend Gina Marasco on the doorstep of their new home in the sunny suburb of Elk Grove, California, four years ago, he never imagined things would get this bad. But they did, and it happened almost overnight.

"It is going to be heartbreak," Yandell told CNN. "But we are hanging on."

Yandell's marriage isn't falling apart: his neighborhood is.

Devastated by the subprime mortgage crisis, hundreds of homes have been foreclosed and thousands of residents have been forced to move, leaving in their wake a not-so-pleasant path of empty houses, unkempt lawns, vacant strip malls, graffiti-sprayed desolate sidewalks and even increased crime.

In Elk Grove, some homeowners not only cut their own grass but also trim the yards of vacant homes on their streets, hoping to deter gangs and criminals from moving in.

Other residents discovered that with some of the empty houses, it wasn't what was growing outside that was the problem. Susan McDonald, president of a local neighborhood association aimed at saving the lost suburban paradise, told CNN that around her cul-de-sac, federal agents recently busted several pot homes with vast crops of marijuana growing from floor to ceiling.

And only a couple of weeks ago, Yandell said he overheard a group of teenagers gathered on the street outside his back patio, talking about a robbery they had just committed.

When they lit a street sign on fire, Yandell called the cops.

"This is not like a rare thing anymore," he said. "I get big congregations of people cussing -- stuff I can't even fathom doing when I was a kid."

For Yandell, his wife and many other residents trying to stick it out, the white picket fence of an American dream has faded into a seemingly hopeless suburban nightmare. "The forecast is gloomy," he told CNN.

While the foreclosure epidemic has left communities across the United States overrun with unoccupied houses and overgrown grass, underneath the chaos another trend is quietly emerging that, over the next several decades, could change the face of suburban American life as we know it.

This trend, according to Christopher Leinberger, an urban planning professor at the University of Michigan and visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution, stems not only from changing demographics but also from a major shift in the way an increasing number of Americans -- especially younger generations -- want to live and work.

"The American dream is absolutely changing," he told CNN.

This change can be witnessed in places like Atlanta, Georgia, Detroit, Michigan, and Dallas, Texas, said Leinberger, where once rundown downtowns are being revitalized by well-educated, young professionals who have no desire to live in a detached single family home typical of a suburbia where life is often centered around long commutes and cars.

Instead, they are looking for what Leinberger calls "walkable urbanism" -- both small communities and big cities characterized by efficient mass transit systems and high density developments enabling residents to walk virtually everywhere for everything -- from home to work to restaurants to movie theaters.

The so-called New Urbanism movement emerged in the mid-90s and has been steadily gaining momentum, especially with rising energy costs, environmental concerns and health problems associated with what Leinberger calls "drivable suburbanism" -- a low-density built environment plan that emerged around the end of the World War II and has been the dominant design in the U.S. ever since.

Thirty-five percent of the nation's wealth, according to Leinberger, has been invested in constructing this drivable suburban landscape.

But now, Leinberger told CNN, it appears the pendulum is beginning to swing back in favor of the type of walkable community that existed long before the advent of the once fashionable suburbs in the 1940s. He says it is being driven by generations molded by television shows like "Seinfeld" and "Friends," where city life is shown as being cool again -- a thing to flock to, rather than flee.

"The image of the city was once something to be left behind," said Leinberger.

Changing demographics are also fueling new demands as the number of households with children continues to decline. By the end of the next decade, the number of single-person households in the United States will almost equal those with kids, Leinberger said.

And aging baby boomers are looking for a more urban lifestyle as they downsize from large homes in the suburbs to more compact town houses in more densely built locations.

Recent market research indicates that up to 40 percent of households surveyed in selected metropolitan areas want to live in walkable urban areas, said Leinberger. The desire is also substantiated by real estate prices for urban residential space, which are 40 to 200 percent higher than in traditional suburban neighborhoods -- this price variation can be found both in cities and small communities equipped with walkable infrastructure, he said.

The result is an oversupply of depreciating suburban housing and a pent-up demand for walkable urban space, which is unlikely to be met for a number of years. That's mainly, according to Leinberger, because the built environment changes very slowly; and also because governmental policies and zoning laws are largely prohibitive to the construction of complicated high-density developments.

But as the market catches up to the demand for more mixed use communities, the United States could see a notable structural transformation in the way its population lives -- Arthur C. Nelson, director of Virginia Tech's Metropolitan Institute, estimates, for example, that half of the real-estate development built by 2025 will not have existed in 2000.

Yet Nelson also estimates that in 2025 there will be a surplus of 22 million large-lot homes that will not be left vacant in a suburban wasteland but instead occupied by lower classes who have been driven out of their once affordable inner-city apartments and houses.

The so-called McMansion, he said, will become the new multi-family home for the poor.

"What is going to happen is lower and lower-middle income families squeezed out of downtown and glamorous suburban locations are going to be pushed economically into these McMansions at the suburban fringe," said Nelson. "There will probably be 10 people living in one house."

In Shaun Yandell's neighborhood, this has already started to happen. Houses once filled with single families are now rented out by low-income tenants. Yandell speculates that they're coming from nearby Sacramento, where the downtown is undergoing substantial gentrification, or perhaps from some other area where prices have gotten too high. He isn't really sure.

But one thing Yandell is sure about is that he isn't going to leave his sunny suburban neighborhood unless he has to, and if that happens, he says he would only want to move to another one just like it.

"It's the American dream, you know," he said. "The American dream."

The downtown mantra is "LIVE WORK PLAY" and I don't think any one is more important than the other. Give each component equal weight & focus.

This is kind of my point. I agree that none is necessarily more important than the other, but SOMETHING has to come first. Right now I get the impression that there is so much of a "wait & see" attitude that every piece is waiting for the others--people don't want to move downtown because the corporate environment hasn't taken hold, companies don't want to move downtown because people aren't living downtown yet, etc.

I know it's probably just a matter of time, but it makes me wonder what it's going to take to take that first step.

Matt -- That's a very interesting article. It's weird to think that in a couple of generations, geographers may be describing the trend that low income workers are forced to commute long distances from the suburbs in their petrolcars. The higher income workers will have cool spaces downtown to "live, work, and play," and are not enslaved by the car. And for as stingy as this country is with its mass transit dollars to help the middle class, imagine how little we will provide when it's the lower class out in the burbs.

Do any of you learned urbanophiles have recent, interesting book ideas for my summer reading? Last night I created a wish list on Amazon.com and selected the following; let me know if you know anything about any of these:

The Death and Life of Great American Cities by Jane Jacobs

Space and Place:The Perspective of Experience by Yi-Fu Tuan

American Cities: Historic Maps and Views by Paul E. Cohen

The Making of Urban America: A History of City Planning in the United States by John W. Reps

Cities of the World: A History in Maps by Peter Whitfield

The City: A Global History by Joel Kotkin

The American City: What Works and What Doesn't by Alexander Garvin

How Cities Work: Suburbs, Sprawl, and the Roads Not Taken by Alex Marshall

The City Shaped: Urban Patterns and Meanings Through History by Spiro Kostof

A Field Guide to Sprawl by Delores Hayden

Suburban Nation: The Rise of Sprawl and the Decline of the American Dream by Andres Duany

The Rise of the Creative Class: And How It's Transforming Work, Leisure, Community and Everyday Life by Richard Florida

Who's Your City?: How the Creative Economy Is Making Where to Live the Most Important Decision of Your Life by Richard Florida

The Geography of Nowhere: The Rise and Decline of America's Man-Made Landscape by James Howard Kunstler

Tribes: How Race, Religion, and Identity Determine Success in the New Global Economy by Joel Kotkin

Sprawl: A Concise History by Robert Bruegmann

Twentieth-Century Sprawl: Highways and the Reshaping of the American Landscape by Owen D. Gutfreund

Matt -- That's a very interesting article. It's weird to think that in a couple of generations, geographers may be describing the trend that low income workers are forced to commute long distances from the suburbs in their petrolcars. The higher income workers will have cool spaces downtown to "live, work, and play," and are not enslaved by the car.


This trend already exists here in the San Francisco bay area. People who want to be able to buy a home have to move further and further out from the City and inner suburbs to find affordable housing. Older suburbs near the city with older houses needing work go for twice the ammount of the new houses in the outer suburbs.

Do any of you learned urbanophiles have recent, interesting book ideas for my summer reading? Last night I created a wish list on Amazon.com and selected the following; let me know if you know anything about any of these:

The Death and Life of Great American Cities by Jane Jacobs

Space and Place:The Perspective of Experience by Yi-Fu Tuan

American Cities: Historic Maps and Views by Paul E. Cohen

The Making of Urban America: A History of City Planning in the United States by John W. Reps

Cities of the World: A History in Maps by Peter Whitfield

The City: A Global History by Joel Kotkin

The American City: What Works and What Doesn't by Alexander Garvin

How Cities Work: Suburbs, Sprawl, and the Roads Not Taken by Alex Marshall

The City Shaped: Urban Patterns and Meanings Through History by Spiro Kostof

A Field Guide to Sprawl by Delores Hayden

Suburban Nation: The Rise of Sprawl and the Decline of the American Dream by Andres Duany

The Rise of the Creative Class: And How It's Transforming Work, Leisure, Community and Everyday Life by Richard Florida

Who's Your City?: How the Creative Economy Is Making Where to Live the Most Important Decision of Your Life by Richard Florida

The Geography of Nowhere: The Rise and Decline of America's Man-Made Landscape by James Howard Kunstler

Tribes: How Race, Religion, and Identity Determine Success in the New Global Economy by Joel Kotkin

Sprawl: A Concise History by Robert Bruegmann

Twentieth-Century Sprawl: Highways and the Reshaping of the American Landscape by Owen D. Gutfreund


Wow... When you put them in a nice list I have read quite a few, in fact I own several. I know that the BC Library has several on this list as well, I currently have "Who's Your City?: How the Creative Economy Is Making Where to Live the Most Important Decision of Your Life by Richard Florida" checked out.

I also have Asphalt Nation: How the automobile took over America and how we can take it back by Jane Holtz Kay, that could be added to the summer reading list.

Here is another story of "the American Dream", I wont post it as it is rather long but here is the link.

Yahoo (http://finance.yahoo.com/expert/article/generationdebt/88236)

Along the current topics, this was posted in the Milwaukee thread in case not everyone follows it. I really think it is relevant to Green Bay, in a certain extent.

http://www.wpri.org/Reports/Volume21/Vol21No4/Vol21No4p1.html

I'll have to check out some of those books Geo, a couple seem really interesting.

The Death and Life of Great American Cities by Jane Jacobs

Suburban Nation: The Rise of Sprawl and the Decline of the American Dream by Andres Duany

The Geography of Nowhere: The Rise and Decline of America's Man-Made Landscape by James Howard Kunstler



I read these three and I'd recommend them!

"Death & Life" is a longer read, it's not always a real "page-turner" but it's essential reading as far as the observations and ideas that Jane Jacobs lays out. The fact it was written in 1960 with such foresight...bugs the crap out of me because our city hadn't yet been torn down then yet, too bad the city leaders at the time in Green Bay hadn't understood these basic principles of cities.

"Suburban Nation",--Very well-written & concise. A little more up-to-date. Same basic principles of the above book, but I'd say a little easier to digest.

And then my favorite of all-- The Geography of Nowhere is just fun to read. Some say it's hypercritical or even whiny, but what I like is how Kunstler lays out stuff in such an entertaining way. "Tragic comedy" he likes to call it. I don't subscribe to Kunstler's super-pessimistic "doom & gloom" ideas necessarily, but he has an interesting point of view that's at least worth thinking about--worst-case scenario stuff.

His web site is interesting, and what I've really been hooked on lately is the "KunstlerCast" MP3s that he's been putting out lately. I've been loading 'em up into my MP3 player as I jog through the streets of Green Bay and think, holy crap, some of what he's saying is so true..

You can download the KunstlerKast MP3s from here (http://kunstlercast.com/).

I'd like to read some of the other books you pointed out. Let us know which ones you suggest after reading them!!

wishing there were more people out besides the crack addicts (are they still always hanging out in front of the museum in that little thicket next to the water?) Took my grandson on a bike ride last year on a sunday morning downtown just to enjoy the river and serenity. Went by the museum to see the dinosaurs outside and then walked to rivers edge to take a look around. What we came upon were two of Green Bays outstanding citizens passed out by the bushes. Always a nice site to attract people down there.

Took my grandson on a bike ride last year on a sunday morning downtown just to enjoy the river and serenity. Went by the museum to see the dinosaurs outside and then walked to rivers edge to take a look around. What we came upon were two of Green Bays outstanding citizens passed out by the bushes. Always a nice site to attract people down there.

Next time, wake me up before you leave!:lol:

Thanks for the feedback on my summer reading -- keep it coming if you haven't chimed in yet! I think I'll put off Jacobs and definitely get the Kunstler book. And thanks Puant for the Kunstler website -- I can't believe I hadn't seen that before!! :banana:

Took the wife and kids to Cheffetta's for lunch yesterday. My wife (& normally fussy kids) even enjoyed it. Maybe a little more upscale then I care to do for most lunches, but a nice break to try something new. And it was actually fairly busy. After leaving the restaurant we drove by the new "high rise" apartment building being built downtown on N. Washington Street and my wife commented she thought it looked "ugly". This was without prompting. She doesn't follow this forum or other downtown development, just her gut reaction. I'm optimistic that eventually with other development it will fit in. On a more positive note, the Shopko Express being built on Broadway seems to have a nice exterior. All is not lost.

Is there any update on what is going on the 1st floor of the parking ramp?

Took the wife and kids to Cheffetta's for lunch yesterday. My wife (& normally fussy kids) even enjoyed it. Maybe a little more upscale then I care to do for most lunches, but a nice break to try something new. And it was actually fairly busy. After leaving the restaurant we drove by the new "high rise" apartment building being built downtown on N. Washington Street and my wife commented she thought it looked "ugly". This was without prompting. She doesn't follow this forum or other downtown development, just her gut reaction. I'm optimistic that eventually with other development it will fit in. On a more positive note, the Shopko Express being built on Broadway seems to have a nice exterior. All is not lost.

Is there any update on what is going on the 1st floor of the parking ramp?

I will have to take a drive past Shopko Express and check it out. Things REALLY need to start rolling on other projects.

Why do I feel like we are about to land the plane, but the darn landing gear is stuck... meanwhile we are still circling the airport.
:lol:

Wow, not much activity in the last week or so on this board..


a couple things....


I drove by Shopko Express this weekend & have to agree--the brickwork looks very nice, & it should be a very attractive building when it's done..


I was thinking about the development & had a couple thoughts. What about a condo tower over on the Larsen site? It would be walking distance to retail, restaurants, office space, a park, AND I think the view across the river could actually be better than from the east side--especially once some of the other development on the east side takes hold.

Something i've always wanted to ask--why the heck did they decide to leave that cream-colored brick building on the east side of the river?? It seems out of place to me, & quite frankly, ugly.

I was in Spokane, WA last week, which was interesting. The city pop. is roughly 250,000 & the metro area about 400,000. Compare that to GB, roughly 100,000 & 300,000. Spokane has approximately 60% of its population inside the city limits vs. our 30%. They had a pretty nice downtown..

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=605676

Interesting story about Ashwaubenon's use of TIF: Click Here (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080623/GPG0101/806230534/1207/GPG01)

Now, I think reasonable debate could be had as to whether or not each use of TIF money by the Village is within the spirit of TIF law, but that's not going to be my point. Ashwaubenon has prospered because of two things: advantageous location and pro-development attitude (especially TIF use). The first part of that is hard for any community to do much about, but the second part all communities can control. You hear so much talk in Green Bay that's almost anti-TIF, but those people ignore that TIF is a vital tool for economic development, that it works, and that the communities that have used it aggressively have benefited. People can talk about handout-this or corporate-welfare-that, but especially in urbanized areas, the reality is facing the choice of TIF-supported growth or no growth.

Something i've always wanted to ask--why the heck did they decide to leave that cream-colored brick building on the east side of the river?? It seems out of place to me, & quite frankly, ugly.


Although it looks awful right now, I'm actually quite glad they left it. For one, it's been a part of the skyline for so many years (how can it seem out of place? it's been there for half a century or more!). Two, it's solidly built. Three, it would be a waste to just throw it away, as it still can be made functional (see my views on this here (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2008/04/helping-to-put-green-in-green-bay.html)). Fourth and perhaps most importantly, it has potential to be a really cool building, the exposed brick and timbers, the way the street and rail line tunneled through it, the hieght, many other features make it a very interesting & unique building. It could end up like Fitgers in Duluth (ever been there? similiar in how they took an old building like this and turned it into something really cool).

I would have to agree with you, Puant. Much has been said about how past decisions have affected preserving the history of downtown and many of its buildings, but keeping this building intact was the right thing to do. Say what you will about the old Warehouse, but is a part of Green Bay's history and I would even say distinctevly Green Bay. As Danillo alluded too a few posts back, this building, with conjuction with the River Center Apartments will help preserve the cities blue-collar image downtown. I don't know what others think, but I love the idea of the mix of 'old Green Bay' with what the new developments will bring. Jen Kuo sent me via email a few additional renders in addition to what I believe had been posted here in the past (I am not sure how to post these images from email, so help would be awesome, or I can email them to whomever would like them). I think they are sharp and like Puant said, this building could be very nice. With that said, the pressure is on to secure financing and get the ball rolling here. One question I do have though, is this. I am praying that this does not happen, but if financing is not available, what happens to the Warehouse portion? If it is opened up to a new developer would they want to keep a similar design as Vetter/HGA or feel the need to do so? While I would not want the apartments to be as is if it was a stand alone development, I do think it is attractive with its association with the warehouse and in the project as a whole. Would that be jeopardized with a new developer? Lets hope for the best!

Also, talk of the Shopko development has me excited and curious as to how it is looking. Would anyone be so kind as to post some pics of the progress as well as additional work that has been done on the River Center Apartments? Thanks as always and go Green Bay!

Morse...www.photobucket.com... is nice FREE website to use to upload your pictures to, then they provide you with a web link to attach the photos to your posts. If that is something you don't care to do, I can do it for you. Who doesn't like pictures? :)

something interesting (well, sad, really) happened to me tonight. I was at Fetaz picking up dinner (that place is fantastic, for anyone who hasn't gone, btw), & decided to grab a beer & sit outside while I was waiting. I was sitting outside, looking at the baylake building, watching the seagulls, & listening to some guy playing his guitar across the road at vincenzi's. I was thinking, "this downtown has all the potential in the world, & this could be a place that EVERYONE would want to be, if only....." you know the rest..

Anyway, literally at that moment, a girl was walking down Washington & seemed to be from out of town--she stopped to ask me where the closest Walgreens, CVS, etc., was, so she could get a bottle of water. As I sat there struggling to think of where I could direct her for something as simple as that, I realized...regardless of potential, the current state of our downtown is really pathetic.

That's the thing that bothers me the most--we have so many things that other cities don't have--great riverfront space downtown, a pretty decent number of good companies based in GB, the PACKERS(!), etc., etc., etc.... And it seems that we haven't taken advantage of all of that. The worst part is that those who WANT to take advantage, & really move this city forward, seem to have opposition at every step.

Really, this is just a rant--nothing constructive. Ignore me if you wish.........................

hey everyone, in marylnd here...

im thinking your right jerkylips... atlanta an obvious booming city, to me doesnt seem to have appealing geography and a lack of waterfront (waterfront is goooood). A problem with the mentality in this area is everyone complains about COST, and doesnt see certain stuff as INVESTMENT. that goes for transportation and development.

about highway lighting, I-285 around atlanta is about 90 percent NON-lighted, thats an 8-lane freeway.

Any new info on the prestige park towers? the sales center is still on lombardi with a big sign, it seems its still alive.

Anyway, literally at that moment, a girl was walking down Washington & seemed to be from out of town--she stopped to ask me where the closest Walgreens, CVS, etc., was, so she could get a bottle of water. As I sat there struggling to think of where I could direct her for something as simple as that, I realized...regardless of potential, the current state of our downtown is really pathetic.
Well at least in the near future you would be able to direct a request like that across the bridge to the Shopko Express! :lol:

I've mentioned this before so I won't list sources or cite stats again.

We have to remember that the economy is in the worst shape in the past 15 years, and probably the past 25 years. Let's see where the economy goes after the fall elections and after the housing market downturn ends. If we don't see a change in investment and attitude downtown once the recession is over, then I'll be worried about Green Bay. Investors everywhere hold onto their dollars during downturns, especially the financially conservative folks of this area.

"Anyway, literally at that moment, a girl was walking down Washington & seemed to be from out of town--she stopped to ask me where the closest Walgreens, CVS, etc., was, so she could get a bottle of water."

Daily Buzz inside the Bellin or the gas station corner of Walnut and Monroe would have been my picks.

Living DT for 2 weeks now I have to come to feel that DT needs things where you can get 'things'. It sucks to be sitting there on a Sunday night at 7:30 realizing you want or need this or that and decide you have to hop into the car and run out to WalMart.

I hope Shopko solves that.

I also hope that as people move downtown that businesses will be open later than 7:00 (Bosses,Ex.CO.,etc).

When DT was hoppin 15-20 years ago Bosses was always open til 10pm...I remember running in there to grab a mag or paper before the 9:45 busses pulled up on Adams.

I would love to go for a walk on a warm,breezy summer evening at 8:20 and still see the shops open.

^^Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't you have pointed her into the building you just came out of? I thought Fetaz had some small refrigerators with bottled beverages, including water. Otherwise just a few doors down I know Subway does, as does Bosses.

As for what's open/what's not---some of my favorite memories of hanging out in downtowns in other cities were after dark--not just boozin'--but rather being out on a warm summer night, just as you described--, popping in & out of different shops, getting some coffee, stopping in bookstores, watching people, etc. Too bad downtown GB is dead after 7 PM (except for the bars of course!).

CityDeck Plan Change?
Is it just me or did the boardwalk plan (http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/boardwalk/timeline.html) change? I seem to recall the phases being more in segments. Now I look and it appears it's instead divided by upland/waterfront portions, where the upland portion will be done first with the boat docks & main stages to come later. Actually this makes more sense to me, because this way people can still move through this portion of the Fox River trail...at least I assume they'll put the connection all the way through right away. The downside? You won't be able to get close enough to the river to watch dead carp float by until at least 2009.

So aaahhh, what else?

In just over a week, tens of thousands of people who normally don't go downtown will be going down for the 4th of July celebrations. What will they be thinking as they look around?

I was just thinking back to a couple years ago, when all the plans and proposals for new projects were rolling in left & right. I used to stay up late watching city council meetings on cable access TV..it was really exciting! I remember going down to the city hall one night when a big vote was up, the room was just packed to the gill with other people in support of the projects. The "Good Morning Downtown" meetings were fairly frequent, they were full of people and there was so much optimism. It seemed we had surprising new tallish building proposals surfacing quite regularly, for a while there anyway. Older buildings were getting redeveloped and refilled. People were talking, there was some buzz around town about, is the downtown finally coming around again? We still have a couple things to hold on to--the T. Wall site plans, among a few other proposals still on the table, but the buzz may have dwindled a bit. At leats the Larsen site is moving right along. Are thse things enough, though, to give people the impression that things are moving up? We still have a bombed-out building in the "centerpiece" location along the river, and a less-than-thrilling new building next to it. I think the people who see this up-close and personal will go away saying the same old crap.....that downtown is still stuck in a big old rut.

Is Republic Steakhouse opening soon? I remember it was originally scheduled to open the beginning of the summer last I heard. As far as the ribbon retail under the Cherry St Parking ramp I have not heard of any businesses yet. I heard maybe a laundromat, coffee shop or cafe. Like we need another coffee shop downtown.

Also, talk of the Shopko development has me excited and curious as to how it is looking. Would anyone be so kind as to post some pics of the progress as well as additional work that has been done on the River Center Apartments? Thanks as always and go Green Bay!

Morse sent me the pics. From what I can tell, some are new, some are not so I linked all of them.

downtown GB renders (http://www.flickr.com/photos/69074431@N00/)

by the way... a note on the RiverCenter development. The building currently being constructed right now is called "Flats on the Fox" - there is a sign on the construction fence detailing it. The website, which is currently under construction, is http://flatsonthefox.com/.
I think it is looking better. My one complaint would be that there is too much of the dark brown color at the top (whether through siding or painting). I think it could have looked better if only the top floor was that color, but having the top two/three floors in that color seems a little much to me. Nevertheless, great to see progress on the development, and look forward to CityDeck starting soon!!

Grand Union is Back ?!
Another downtown development project will begin construction either in the fall or early next spring.

Fund raising for the future Grand Union building next to the Meyer Theater is just about complete.

A one-million dollar goal was reached about two weeks ago and officials with the project expect to raise $1.4 million by the end of the summer.

The Grand Union building will house offices as well as some sort of banquet facility tied into the Meyer Theater.

Video link is here (http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=8561746)

Also here's another (http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=8561703) WBAY news piece about other downtown developments

....do you think people from the city or news outlets read this forum?

Grand Union is Back ?!
Another downtown development project will begin construction either in the fall or early next spring.

Fund raising for the future Grand Union building next to the Meyer Theater is just about complete.

A one-million dollar goal was reached about two weeks ago and officials with the project expect to raise $1.4 million by the end of the summer.

The Grand Union building will house offices as well as some sort of banquet facility tied into the Meyer Theater.

Video link is here (http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=8561746)

Also here's another (http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=8561703) WBAY news piece about other downtown developments

....do you think people from the city or news outlets read this forum?


WOW that was unexpected. Awesome. Also glad to see the pub for downtown living. Might help interest in Astor Place too.

charlotte, NC here - sweet city

Ooops i crapped my pants, when i saw you said grand union is back, wow! and i like watching dead fish - lovely

i was thinking, bars are the only places that keep people DT later in the day, then open places that are also 2nd shift besides bars;
-a comedy club (not a bad idea)
-casino (small one of course, this will never happen though)

hmm, thats all i can think of.

That is awesome about the grand union!! I think the style of it matches perfectly with the Bellin building next to it! Imagine this... Grand Union, Cherry St. ramp retail, RiverCenter (including the Children's Museum), CityDeck, and T. Wall's proposal. Even if Astor Place never comes to fruition, this is still an impressive lineup for the future, all with very realistic possibilities of happening!

By the way, looking at Flats on the Fox from the West side, I think I realize what Vetter, as an architect, was trying to do. (Probably you all realized this but I had not yet). Vetter's use of color is (I think) intended to coordinate with the color scheme of the Hotel Northland and the Baylake Bank building, which does make some sense. I am hoping RiverCenter will be a great design that ties in many of downtown's aspects.

Its amazing how much optimism and energy the Grand Union project could have for the area!

charlotte, NC here - sweet city

Ooops i crapped my pants, when i saw you said grand union is back, wow! and i like watching dead fish - lovely

i was thinking, bars are the only places that keep people DT later in the day, then open places that are also 2nd shift besides bars;
-a comedy club (not a bad idea)
-casino (small one of course, this will never happen though)

hmm, thats all i can think of.

Wow, good news for once! It's easy to get down on the perceived lack of progress (I'm guilty of it) but I guess it goes to show that progress can be made even when it doesn't look like it.

I have to say, though, I find it amusing that they referred to the 8-story building as a high-rise..

Late last month we told you the city of Green Bay decided to give developer John Vetter more time to finance his Astor Place condominium project.

The condos are all part of Vetter's riverfront development plan, but just because the condos aren't going up just yet doesn't mean the rest of the project is in jeopardy.

This site on the corner of Washington and Main streets will remain empty for the time being as developer John Vetter continues to work towards financing his Astor Place condominium project.

The condos are part of a multi-million dollar multi-phase project to redevelop Green Bay's riverfront.

In addition to the condos, Vetter is planning to develop a City Deck boardwalk as well as restaurants, retail space and a new children's museum.

And while the condo project is on hold, Vetter says everything else which was delayed is now back on track.

"The City Deck boardwalk will start this summer," says Vetter. "The balance of the River Center project for the most part the children's museum and new restaurant and retail venues are gearing up for a spring, early summer 2009 opening."

Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt isn't concerned with any of the delays.

He says he understands a project of this magnitude is going to take some time and things are bound to be pushed back.

But he says he also understands the residents of Green Bay and wants to reassure them while the development may take some extra time, it will get done.

"I understand we're in a city where they need to see it to believe it," says Schmitt. "And they will see construction on the whole City Deck Park area and so people who live down here will have an opportunity to recreate along the water and connect with the Fox River."

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=8562434



Good news about the Grand Union...now we are gaining momentum and not in a holding pattern like we thought. I just wish things would move a little faster on some other things, but better then nothing. In other news did you see the seagulls have invested in downtown? :lol: Apparently they think the Baylake Bank building is too damn ugly they are trying to paint it white.

Good news on the GU. It is odd though that the news reports it is dead and then not less than a month later they report that is has met and probably will exceed its goal of money raised??? Anyways, I also find it odd they took down the rendering on the sign. I do hope they don't change it or reduce the floors. We could use some good "solid" news for a change...:)

In other news did you see the seagulls have invested in downtown? :lol: Apparently they think the Baylake Bank building is too damn ugly they are trying to paint it white.
This is kind of like that old Alfred Hitchcock movie. Why do they shit on this building but not others?

I was thinking of some bad jokes about this as well-- BayLake ShittyCenter. (insert Krusty the Klown groan).

GB4Life--
I believe the large GrandUnion sign was wrecked by the wind. I had seen it cracking and falling apart shortly before it was taken down.

GB4Life--
I believe the large GrandUnion sign was wrecked by the wind. I had seen it cracking and falling apart shortly before it was taken down.

Thanks. Hope that was the reason. Can't wait for the real thing.

harrisburg, PA here;

About the arguement that you need residential units DT before you need office units DT, i think growth could go either way; lets say you put job places DT first. That can still work because those workers will think, "hey i should move nearby since my job is here, to be close to work." In fact it goes either way anywhere, whether it be a new gas station, bank and fast food restaurant at an interchange where there is just farmland and forest, then some of those that own that undeveloped land next to those new services that just opened decided to subdivide there land. Or the subdivisions are already there and then the retail comes in...It goes either way, in other words anything can come first - residential, office, entertainment.

Ive created my own word, a word that adds on to the demographic ratings of metropolis and megalopolis...ive created - Colopolis (colossus metropolis...no not colonoscopy in a metro);

Metropolis - minneapolis, atlanta, denver, nashville, etc
Megalopolis - chicago/milwaukee, san francisco/oakland/san jose, etc
Colopolis - New york/boston/philadelphia/baltimore/D.C , Los angeles/san diego/san bernardino

I think a colopolis would have to include at least 2 CITIES of over 1million near each other.

Great news about the Grand Union! That news was ironic for me as I was hanging out with my fiance's roommate and her boyfriend (both are from Green Bay) this weekend in La Crosse. We started to talk about Downtown and their responses were the usual from your neck of the woods-the mall is horrible, failed plans, city of our size should have a legitimate downtown, etc. They were both very proud of the Meyer Theatre and commented how it is unfortunate that it is 'stand alone' and they wished more could be incorporated with that gem to make the area more attractive (they did name the Daily Planet building and wanted more restaurants, shops or namely more of an entertainment district). I told them about the Grand Union, T Wall, and the parking ramp retail with regards to some of the more immediate plans. They found this somewhat amusing as someone from La Crosse, WI knew more about plans than they would. I had to agree wholeheartedly (though my interests greatly involve archtitecture and development, whereas there's doesn't) but I think this does refer back to previous discussion about how the city needs to work with developers more to market projects to drum up support and interest. They did mention Vetter Denk in passing, so I had to show them some of the renders of the riverfront. They were both very impressed and loved Astor Place and commented on how different and cool it would look. That was not very hard to get the enthusiasm from them, though I can understand the reservations because of other failed projects. Again, not to preach to the choir as you all are very aware of this, but the shovel needs to hit the ground on some of these projects soon and I think perceptions will change, I really do. With all of that said, a couple of questions.

1.) With regards to the WBAY segment (Thanks Puante!), and to make sure that I am understanding this correctly, is the warehouse portion of the River Center and Astor Place now considered, again, seperate as far as financing goes? The article mentions "and while the condo project is on hold, Vetter says everything else which was delayed is now back on track." Can we expect the shops, restaurants, warehouse portion to more than likely begin work with the Children's Museum?

2.) Anyone have recent pics of Shopko building and River Center Apartments?

Thanks as always!

AGENDA OF THE COMMON COUNCIL

TUESDAY, JULY 1, 2008, 7:00 P.M.
COUNCIL CHAMBERS
ROOM 203, CITY HALL

Resolutions:

19. Resolution encouraging Federal Officials to select a permanent site and secure funding for construction of a federal courthouse in Green Bay.

This si from the informational section from the RDA back on June 10th

INFORMATIONAL:



13. Director’s Report.



· R. Strong stated that the ramp space/retail space under the parking ramp at the corner of Washington and Walnut Street has been sold. Construction is expected to begin within the next few weeks.



· R. Strong stated that at the last meeting, the Authority had requested to have D. Daul address the Authority and speak about the new room tax monies. D. Daul informed R. Strong that he has a meeting this Thursday with the Finance Director from the County and a representative from Associated Bank. D. Daul would like to wait until after that meeting to update the Authority.



· R. Strong stated that Tundra did receive approval for a ten thousand square foot convention addition on the northwest corner of their hotel.



· R. Strong stated that the six-month extension for T. Wall was approved.



· R. Strong stated that the RDA report on the Astor Place project was approved.



· R. Strong stated that Naletta Burr has resigned from On Broadway, Inc. effective at the end of June.

Very interesting news from the meeting. Great to hear about the retail space at the ramp.

Also, is there any more information/resources on the federal courthouse? I have been a bit distracted lately, but wasn't aware they were planning anything so significant.

As always, thanks for the updates.

Also, is there any more information/resources on the federal courthouse? I have been a bit distracted lately, but wasn't aware they were planning anything so significant.



After 20 years of political wrangling they finally opened a federal court in '02. There is a great need for a permanent location for this Eastern Wisconsin District. We are currently #1 (worst) for most individuals per authorized judge. It looks like Site & Design was suppose to be in 2007 and construction next year, but since it is already '08 they probably will build in now at least 2010 or later. They haven't released any designs, but said to be around $11 M building (small building no more then 4 or 5 floors probably).

http://www.gsa.gov/gsa/cm_attachments/GSA_DOCUMENT/Courthouse_Project_Plan_FY05-09_R2OR-t_0Z5RDZ-i34K-pR.pdf



New Article on Fed Courthouse:

http://www.wislawjournal.com/article.cfm/2008/06/23/Courthouse-Hunting-Federal-officials-will-tour-Eastern-District-next-month

Great to hear the Grand Union has a heartbeat again. If I can be a little be selfish, I would love to see a new reader board/electronic sign integrated into the Grand Union Project.

http://www.wagnersign.com/images/stories/croswell-009.jpg


http://www.wagnersign.com/images/stories/croswell-010.jpg


http://www.wagnersign.com/images/stories/state-ohioled-101.jpg


http://www.wagnersign.com/images/stories/foxtheatre-999.jpg

Federal Courthouse
^^Can anyone explain to me what is wrong with the building that the federal courthouse is currently located in? It's in a good location, it seems, right across the street from the county courthouse which even has a detention center. Heck it even looks like a federal courthouse.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/PublicLibraryonJeffersonSt.jpg

I'm sure security is a concern, that this building is not equipped with anti-terror stuff...I also realize this was originally a library / museum so it may not have the perfect layout, but it is working right now, isn't it...<<LATER EDIT - thanks to Titletown, here's (http://www.wislawjournal.com/article.cfm/2008/06/23/Courthouse-Hunting-Federal-officials-will-tour-Eastern-District-next-month)some info. I wonder, then, where this new fed courthouse might land?)

Republic Steakhouse
I found out this is opening September 12th. I can't wait!! I have noticed a lot of work being done, the entire facade of the building has been sealed off for several weeks now (was there asbestos?..I hope they keep the outer facade with the stained glass and all!).

more on Grand Union
This is the scoop on this project:
The reported timing of the construction and the connection between the fundraising and the building project was inaccurate. It should be understood that the rendering that has been on the site was an effort to market individual condo office floors, and an effort to provide contiguous banquet space for the long-term success of the Meyer Theatre. Redevelopment of the corner is also an opportunity to activate the first floor with possibly a restaurant, retail space, ticket office, coat room and expanded lobby space. The sign came down because the eventual development plans for the site will not likely take the form as originally proposed. I don’t think the volunteer board of Directors of the Meyer Theatre should be criticized for attempting to maximize the potential for that corner. Office development is a competitive business. I don’t see this as a failure for downtown! One of the best ways to determine if there is development interest compatible with the long-term needs of the theatre is to work with a commercial real estate professional and propose and market a development strategy. If a corporate entity in need of 21,000 square feet on a high-profile corner would have come forward, the Grand Union would probably have become a reality. There were investors and business owners interested in a number of the proposed floors. There is exciting momentum building at the Meyer Theatre. The Meyer’s impact on downtown Green Bay is significant! As it relates to the Daily Planet site, there is interest in the corner (FACT), but it is too early to know exactly what form it will take and the timeline is also undetermined. Get your Meyer Theatre season tickets today!!

more on Grand Union
This is the scoop on this project:
The reported timing of the construction and the connection between the fundraising and the building project was inaccurate. It should be understood that the rendering that has been on the site was an effort to market individual condo office floors, and an effort to provide contiguous banquet space for the long-term success of the Meyer Theatre. Redevelopment of the corner is also an opportunity to activate the first floor with possibly a restaurant, retail space, ticket office, coat room and expanded lobby space. The sign came down because the eventual development plans for the site will not likely take the form as originally proposed. I don’t think the volunteer board of Directors of the Meyer Theatre should be criticized for attempting to maximize the potential for that corner. Office development is a competitive business. I don’t see this as a failure for downtown! One of the best ways to determine if there is development interest compatible with the long-term needs of the theatre is to work with a commercial real estate professional and propose and market a development strategy. If a corporate entity in need of 21,000 square feet on a high-profile corner would have come forward, the Grand Union would probably have become a reality. There were investors and business owners interested in a number of the proposed floors. There is exciting momentum building at the Meyer Theatre. The Meyer’s impact on downtown Green Bay is significant! As it relates to the Daily Planet site, there is interest in the corner (FACT), but it is too early to know exactly what form it will take and the timeline is also undetermined. Get your Meyer Theatre season tickets today!!

So in reality, the fundraising was for the Meyer facility, maybe the first 2 floors of a proposed building? And the Grand Union as we have seen it rendered will not be built? Is that how I read it? I would be disapointed to see anything smaller then 5 floors get built on the corner considering the exposure and the surronding buildings... whoever wrote that responce sure seems quite positive.

Too bad that the Grand Union news wasn't quite what we hoped, but hopefully something good will still come of it! In response to jschmuck, I took some pictures of the Flats on the Fox portion of RiverCenter, however it was while I was driving on my way to work (I work at Titletown, which is a great place to watch the two major construction sites downtown). So the pictures aren't great but it will give you some idea.

View going north on Washington Street:
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll136/gcampion/DSCN00961.jpg

View of the southern face of the building:
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll136/gcampion/DSCN00991.jpg

View of the southern and eastern faces (the eastern face is the one facing Washington St.):
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll136/gcampion/DSCN01001.jpg

The view of the northern face:
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll136/gcampion/DSCN01021.jpg

I will try to get you better quality updates on both buildings soon, but here's what I got so far.

With regards to the Grand Union, if there was actual interest in a number of floors (I remember when they ran ads in the PG saying that 3 or 4 flooors were already sold) then why can this still not be a 5 or 6 story building. That way they still get the first 2 floors with the fund raising they've been doing and then another 3 or 4 for the local parties that were interested. To me this just seems like another project that is going to be half assed and then down the road we will all be complaining in here about how there is not a significant building that is also aesthetically pleasing with some decent architecture. Granted they could always add on in the future, and correct me if I'm wrong, but thats what they also said about that one story building on Main next to the JCP building. :bash:

An actual serious question though... were are the residents of the flats on the fox going to park?

With regards to the Grand Union, if there was actual interest in a number of floors (I remember when they ran ads in the PG saying that 3 or 4 flooors were already sold) then why can this still not be a 5 or 6 story building. That way they still get the first 2 floors with the fund raising they've been doing and then another 3 or 4 for the local parties that were interested. To me this just seems like another project that is going to be half assed and then down the road we will all be complaining in here about how there is not a significant building that is also aesthetically pleasing with some decent architecture. Granted they could always add on in the future, and correct me if I'm wrong, but thats what they also said about that one story building on Main next to the JCP building. :bash:

An actual serious question though... were are the residents of the flats on the fox going to park?

As far as the GU. Well, first the news should actually do some investigating reporting because possibly half the problem is them not reportingt he full story. A lot of people get excited and for what? Lame.

The parking for the Flats on the Fox. They will temporarily park in the Main Street Ramp. That sure is convienient. And then when ("if") the parking is made above the Children's Museum there will be 32 designated spaces for the 64 units in the Flats as the developer thinks that everyone will not own a single car who rents there.

GRAND
–adjective
1. impressive in size, appearance, or general effect: grand mountain scenery.
2. stately, majestic, or dignified: In front of an audience her manner is grand and regal.
3. highly ambitious or idealistic: grand ideas for bettering the political situation.
4. magnificent or splendid: a grand palace.
5. noble or revered: a grand old man.
6. highest, or very high, in rank or official dignity: a grand potentate.

How about the Modest Union....or Insignificant Union? You can't plop down a 3 story structure at the prominent corner and call it Grand if it's not!

An actual serious question though... were are the residents of the flats on the fox going to park?

For one, I think that if you are considering living downtown you would chose to do so for a reason. If you want to live in a walkable environment then do you need a car? We have parking ramps, that if for some reason, you like the freedom of being able to drive you can park you car there. Truthfully I know we all like to look the other way, or simply ignore, but how long do you think people will be driving cars for, there has to be a limit to what you can pay for gas? Even if we are allowed to drill for oil off the coast, its not like it will be cheap. Are parking structures designed to be able to drive everywhere? Do people think that every building has to have parking?? c'mon. It is very frustrating that people cannot imagine walking a few blocks to get places...

Rant... sorry

For one, I think that if you are considering living downtown you would chose to do so for a reason. If you want to live in a walkable environment then do you need a car? We have parking ramps, that if for some reason, you like the freedom of being able to drive you can park you car there. Truthfully I know we all like to look the other way, or simply ignore, but how long do you think people will be driving cars for, there has to be a limit to what you can pay for gas? Even if we are allowed to drill for oil off the coast, its not like it will be cheap. Are parking structures designed to be able to drive everywhere? Do people think that every building has to have parking?? c'mon. It is very frustrating that people cannot imagine walking a few blocks to get places...

Rant... sorry

I couldn't agree with you more. However, this is Green Bay and although it is going to get better with the addition of ShopKo Express, the lack of essential services downtown makes it difficult to do everyday chores. Living downtown does not nessecarily spell the end of the vehicle and needs of a vehicle. I wish it was the case, but it isn't. Plus, although reidership is going up on our City busses and people are utilizing bikes there are just some things that makes use of these two forms of transportation difficult (such as carrying a weeks worth of grocery bags. Should every development provide adequate parking? No. But do potential tenants expect that and close. I assume they would. All except the Urban Pioneers that have seemed to vanish right before our very eyes. Or they are on the endangered species list, in Green Bay that is.

Let just say for discussion I wouldn't mind parking two blocks away from where I lived. But I do see what happens in the public parking ramp at night around bar closing, I sure wouldn't want to leave any car of any value parked there overnight on a daily basis. Or for that matter any bike I own. A private parking spot for each apartment seems reasonable. I hope the parking problem with this development doesn't keep the business person away from wanting to rent there.

After 20 years of political wrangling they finally opened a federal court in '02. There is a great need for a permanent location for this Eastern Wisconsin District. We are currently #1 (worst) for most individuals per authorized judge. It looks like Site & Design was suppose to be in 2007 and construction next year, but since it is already '08 they probably will build in now at least 2010 or later. They haven't released any designs, but said to be around $11 M building (small building no more then 4 or 5 floors probably).

http://www.gsa.gov/gsa/cm_attachments/GSA_DOCUMENT/Courthouse_Project_Plan_FY05-09_R2OR-t_0Z5RDZ-i34K-pR.pdf



New Article on Fed Courthouse:

http://www.wislawjournal.com/article.cfm/2008/06/23/Courthouse-Hunting-Federal-officials-will-tour-Eastern-District-next-month

Maybe I'm completely off base here, but is there some reason that the federal court couldn't piggyback on one of the other initiatives? My first thought was the former mall site--plenty of space available there, but the timeline probably won't fit.

Next thought--what about site 4? Being the "least sexy" of the available sites, could it make sense to build that 15-20 story tower, but make it all commercial, with 5-6 floors going to the federal court?

After 20 years of political wrangling they finally opened a federal court in '02. There is a great need for a permanent location for this Eastern Wisconsin District. We are currently #1 (worst) for most individuals per authorized judge. It looks like Site & Design was suppose to be in 2007 and construction next year, but since it is already '08 they probably will build in now at least 2010 or later. They haven't released any designs, but said to be around $11 M building (small building no more then 4 or 5 floors probably).

http://www.gsa.gov/gsa/cm_attachments/GSA_DOCUMENT/Courthouse_Project_Plan_FY05-09_R2OR-t_0Z5RDZ-i34K-pR.pdf



New Article on Fed Courthouse:

http://www.wislawjournal.com/article.cfm/2008/06/23/Courthouse-Hunting-Federal-officials-will-tour-Eastern-District-next-month

ok, let's try that again--if this post shows up twice...sorry..

Federal court--is there a reason, legally or logistically, that the federal court cannot be in a building that also has other commercial property?

My first thought was that the former mall site would have plenty of space & wouldn't take up the arguably more valuable waterfront space, but it doesn't sound like the timeline for tearing down the mall & re-building would necessarily work.

Next thought--what about site 4? It's the one that seems to have the least interest anyway, at least for residential properties. What about building that 15-20 story tower, retail on 1st floor, 5-6 floors (top floors, possibly, for security) federal court, & the remaining floors open to commercial/office space?

GRAND
–adjective
1. impressive in size, appearance, or general effect: grand mountain scenery.
2. stately, majestic, or dignified: In front of an audience her manner is grand and regal.
3. highly ambitious or idealistic: grand ideas for bettering the political situation.
4. magnificent or splendid: a grand palace.
5. noble or revered: a grand old man.
6. highest, or very high, in rank or official dignity: a grand potentate.

How about the Modest Union....or Insignificant Union? You can't plop down a 3 story structure at the prominent corner and call it Grand if it's not!

(disclaimer: what you are about to read adds no value to this thread :lol:)

Keep in mind that WBAY referred to the 8 story "flats on the fox" as a high-rise. In those terms, GU WOULD be grand... haha...

Jerky-

I had the same thoughts as you with regards to incorporating the courthouse into plans for site 4, though I could swear that at one time that was the parcel being considered for it. I did read that Direct Development requested a planning option on that site and I believe it was for commercial, so I think if there aren't any regulations (the one concern that I do see is that I am under the impression that if the Federal Government constructs this building, they are considered the landlords) a 15-20 story building is a viable option. If this isn't possibe, how about placing the courthouse on one of the many surface parking lots downtown to create some infill and density.

Grand Union name
THe Grand Union name is apparently based on the historic name of this intersection-- "Grand Union" because this "..was a key intersection where convergence of streetcars from all 4 directions prompted prominent growth" (see here (http://www.thegranduniongb.com/)).

Hmmm....Transit-oriented development... What an interesting concept...

Fed Courthouse on "site 4"
I remember the former mayor Jadin advocated for putting the fed courthouse on 'site 4' or 'area 51' or whatever we're calling it now. Anyway, Some people balked at this, including me, but at the time he said the Fed courthouse was going to be "significant architecture". I have a render of something like it somewhere... ah here (http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/D_FedCouthouse.jpg)it is...not sure if it would end up looking like this (the mountainous background isn't quite right) but it's a federal courthouse design anyway (looks very early 1960s...). At this point, I may be willing to go along with putting a fed courthouse on 'site 4', particularly if as some of you suggest something else can be worked in with the federal stuff. Although that seems unlikely...Are there any examples of this now, besides our current federal court building?

I also remember some talk about putting the fed courthouse on the corner of Walnut and Monroe (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=rdjx4g7nz6f4&style=b&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15772899&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1), where there is currently a run-down white press-gazette warehouse-like building sitting there apparently vacant. Not sure where I heard this or what the inside scoop is, but I recall it anyway.

Grand Union name
THe Grand Union name is apparently based on the historic name of this intersection-- "Grand Union" because this "..was a key intersection where convergence of streetcars from all 4 directions prompted prominent growth" (see here (http://www.thegranduniongb.com/)).

Hmmm....Transit-oriented development... What an interesting concept...

Fed Courthouse on "site 4"
I remember the former mayor Jadin advocated for putting the fed courthouse on 'site 4' or 'area 51' or whatever we're calling it now. Anyway, Some people balked at this, including me, but at the time he said the Fed courthouse was going to be "significant architecture". I have a render of something like it somewhere... ah here (http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/D_FedCouthouse.jpg)it is...not sure if it would end up looking like this (the mountainous background isn't quite right) but it's a federal courthouse design anyway (looks very early 1960s...). At this point, I may be willing to go along with putting a fed courthouse on 'site 4', particularly if as some of you suggest something else can be worked in with the federal stuff. Although that seems unlikely...Are there any examples of this now, besides our current federal court building?

I also remember some talk about putting the fed courthouse on the corner of Walnut and Monroe (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=rdjx4g7nz6f4&style=b&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15772899&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1), where there is currently a run-down white press-gazette warehouse-like building sitting there apparently vacant. Not sure where I heard this or what the inside scoop is, but I recall it anyway.

unfortunately I guess if that's the building they want that's what they want--but someone once told me that money talks--I don't know where I heard that one :lol:--if the developers want to push site 4 bad enough, I'm sure they could make it attractive. (I agree about the building--very outdated looking. hopefully they don't build what you posted)


p.s. y'all are a bunch of night-owls, apparently...

For one, I think that if you are considering living downtown you would chose to do so for a reason. If you want to live in a walkable environment then do you need a car? We have parking ramps, that if for some reason, you like the freedom of being able to drive you can park you car there. Truthfully I know we all like to look the other way, or simply ignore, but how long do you think people will be driving cars for, there has to be a limit to what you can pay for gas? Even if we are allowed to drill for oil off the coast, its not like it will be cheap. Are parking structures designed to be able to drive everywhere? Do people think that every building has to have parking?? c'mon. It is very frustrating that people cannot imagine walking a few blocks to get places...

Rant... sorry

you could make that argument if this was Chicago, NY, Boston, etc, with a very extensive public transportation system--but we don't have that, & probably never will. Don't forget that the subways of NY were built over the course of 50+ years.

I agree that living downtown may lessen the need for a car, but I can't see any way that people can or will give them up completely. If they really wanted to push the green initiative, they could offer incentives for hybrids, smartcars, etc.--stuff that you could fit 2 per parking spot. I think the idea of 1 car per unit is not realistic, let alone not offering parking for every unit. It's not 1950--mom & dad both work, & both need to get to work. I can't understand the logic behind that decision.

Grand Union name

I also remember some talk about putting the fed courthouse on the corner of Walnut and Monroe (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=rdjx4g7nz6f4&style=b&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15772899&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1), where there is currently a run-down white press-gazette warehouse-like building sitting there apparently vacant. Not sure where I heard this or what the inside scoop is, but I recall it anyway.

drug possession? $99!! murder? $99!! any court case, $99!!! (that ugly old building used to be Earl Scheib, home of the $99 paint job!!)

^^:lol:That $99 post was hilarious!!

As far as living without a car.....Under different circumstances (say, if I were single without kids) I would seriously try it, even in Green Bay. I managed quite well without a car for many months when I was in my early 20s. Now granted I was a college student but I lived off campus downtown, and I could bike or walk everywhere I needed to go. Buses got me other places. Got plastered drunk? No problem, ride the bus or gather some buddies and take a cab. THe no-car life is possible, even in Green Bay...I have no doubt. You'd have to make some sacrifices, sure. So you want to go to Menards to buy a bunch of crap? OK maybe you need to find a ride out to Menards and then get the rental truck to haul the stuff home. But really how often do you really buy this much crap? Groceries--Just do it in smaller hauls. If you have no car, you'd have more disposable income, maybe hit up a sandwich shop or another restaurant more often instead of paying $500 per month for a car.

I think that site 4 would better served as a surface parking lot then a federal courthouse. The current courthouse location is just a fraction of a floor of the building where it resides, and I can only imagine that there is no way that the fed will spend any money on anything significant in Green Bay. Take a look at the relocated social security building out on Military, not a very sexy building but serves a purpose, this is what I imagine a federal courthouse may look like.

Hmmm....Transit-oriented development... What an interesting concept...
What is that??? Surely nothing in Green Bay...

I also heard that the Childrens Museum building (prefab) is being built and that there could be some activity on site by the end of July, with construction progressing quickly, The building will include a few levels of parking and a couple commercial spots and I was told a national tier dining establishment, couldn't get any details. So it sounds like progress is happening...
I think that there was a solid site plan posted a few posts ago by Morse

As far as living without a car.....Under different circumstances (say, if I were single without kids) I would seriously try it, even in Green Bay. I managed quite well without a car for many months when I was in my early 20s. Now granted I was a college student but I lived off campus downtown, and I could bike or walk everywhere I needed to go. Buses got me other places. Got plastered drunk? No problem, ride the bus or gather some buddies and take a cab. THe no-car life is possible, even in Green Bay...I have no doubt. You'd have to make some sacrifices, sure. So you want to go to Menards to buy a bunch of crap? OK maybe you need to find a ride out to Menards and then get the rental truck to haul the stuff home. But really how often do you really buy this much crap? Groceries--Just do it in smaller hauls. If you have no car, you'd have more disposable income, maybe hit up a sandwich shop or another restaurant more often instead of paying $500 per month for a car.

Man, I think you hit it on the head, you have lived w/o the burdon of a car. Lucky....
There is no way where I am in my life that I could do it, I really would like to but like most of this area everything is spread to thin where transit just doesn't work. I have rode my bike a few times but to go 15 miles across town took me about an hour, with a shower. I guess the point I am trying to make is that parking garages are very expensive and take up loads of room, why on earth would we want to park cars along the river? I know that it just doent seem like it is possible to not have a car. But in reality gas and everything that relies on gas is going to continue to increase and the people most affected by the high prices are the ones who already struggle to get by. We need to start thinking about it before it becomes an emergency and before we seem more burnouts living along the river.

^^Well there's no way I could do it now anymore, especially living where I do. But I could kick myself for moving out of the center of the city, because I'm pretty sure we could get by as a family wiht just 1 car instead of two. Now that still isn't 0 cars but again, if I was single w/o kids I think it's doable, quite easily really, in the downtown & near-downtown. People do it all the time, even here.

Anyway.....record flurry of posts for this thread. Did you guys notice that our little GB thread has the 2nd most replies on the Midwest Development News section (just behind Indianapolis) and the second most views (behind Milwaukee). Are we all obsessive-compulsive about our city or what?

I still dont think it is possible to completely depend on mods of transportation other than your car in Green Bay. There is just way too much sprawl and while the ridership is increasing on the city buses, they are still too unreliable to get me to work on time. Granted everyone in this city could still cut back their use of cars drastically, but until gas hits $10 a gallon I don't see a majority of people making a significant change in how they get from place to place.

Did anyone catch the article about the 4th of July in the PG this morning? Apparently ESPN will be downtown filming for it's search for "titletown" I'm kind of torn on this. It will be great to get some publicity and now whatever they show on tv will be of people actually out on the streets in Green Bay. Granted this will probably just lead to comments on tv like "wow I didnt realize there were that many people in Green Bay, etc" However, I almost feel like tellng ESPN to come back in five years when hopefully downtown wont suck as much.

Puant I did notice that we are second in both views and comments. At least we cant blame the lack of progress and other development on a lack of effort on our part.

I think that site 4 would better served as a surface parking lot then a federal courthouse. The current courthouse location is just a fraction of a floor of the building where it resides.....

the article stated that there were offices spread all over the city, and they are looking to consolidate into one location. Not sure how much space they'd need but it would definitely be more than the needs of the current courthouse.

A few thoughts:

1) Regarding the courthouse, the article stated that the idea is to consolidate federal offices into one site that the government would own. So, if that was part of a mixed use development, then either the feds would be renters (which they are trying to get away from), landlords (doubt that would work), or co-owners in an office condo (maybe, I guess). Also remember that a federal building would be off the tax-rolls and therefore less desirable for Site 4, plus IIRC new federal buildings have all sorts of rules about setbacks and barriers to protect the building from an Oklahoma City type attack, so it's difficult to make it the most urban building in the world.

I actually think the Walnut/Monroe site that Puant mentioned is a good option. At one point Site 4 was "reserved" for the Federal Courthouse. I seem to remember hearing that Congressman Green did a lot of work to get that fast-tracked, but then when Mayor Schmitt took office he didn't want to use such a prominent site for a building that would add no tax base (rightly so, I think). So that ended the fast-trackness of the project. Something along those lines...

2) No car living - Of course it's possible. I could do it if I lived downtown by myself. The question is whether or not doing so is desirable for enough people. We'll find out. It is going to seem a more attractive option as time goes by, I'd bet.

3) Post count - Remember, Milwaukee is on Thread #8 or something like that, and we are on thread #3 I believe. Still impressive though.

4) Titletown - This whole "what city is Titletown" thing it a complete crock of sh*t. Green Bay is Titletown, has been for what, 50 years? Why does ESPN think they can just award that nickname as they please? I think Yakima, WA should be the Big Apple because they grow more apples there than New York, and Winnipeg should be the Windy City because it's windier there than Chicago. I could go one. This whole thing is lame and I plan to have no part of it. I'd love for ESPN to have their event, have nobody show up, but have a sign planted that reads: "This contest is a load of crap."

So, if anyone wants to know what I really think of this, just ask ;-)

Deleted - double post

For one, I think that if you are considering living downtown you would chose to do so for a reason. If you want to live in a walkable environment then do you need a car? We have parking ramps, that if for some reason, you like the freedom of being able to drive you can park you car there. Truthfully I know we all like to look the other way, or simply ignore, but how long do you think people will be driving cars for, there has to be a limit to what you can pay for gas? Even if we are allowed to drill for oil off the coast, its not like it will be cheap. Are parking structures designed to be able to drive everywhere? Do people think that every building has to have parking?? c'mon. It is very frustrating that people cannot imagine walking a few blocks to get places...

Rant... sorry

Parking is an absolute must for any project in this area whether it is in the valley or Green Bay. This area is to spread out and lets admit it we are never going to have rail, the bus system is very very limited and people are not going to surrender their cars. Gas may go up higher and that will cause people to be selective on travel. But parking is a main stay of this area, that is always one of teh biggest grumbles you hear.

Parking is an absolute must for any project in this area whether it is in the valley or Green Bay. This area is to spread out and lets admit it we are never going to have rail, the bus system is very very limited and people are not going to surrender their cars. Gas may go up higher and that will cause people to be selective on travel. But parking is a main stay of this area, that is always one of teh biggest grumbles you hear.

I think more of his point was that there is 2 ramps within a block of that site.

And in my opinion, parking can't be that big of an issue since people will park the effective distance of 3-4 or more city blocks away from the mall and walk there and that doesn't seem to hurt business there at all. I think it's more of an old stereotype people use an excuse to not frequent downtown.

I really tend to disagree parking is a must for every site. If downtown is going to succeded we need to make it more friendly to walk, not drive. If you love your car that much then fine dont live downtown. I imagine that we could build and subsidize a grocery store for a number of years for the price it would cost to build a parking ramp. Why do we have to look at the present to move forward? Again I fully realize that the Green Bay metro area (not the bus service, even though an overhaul would help) is so poorly connected and spead out that it seems impossible to not drive. Well lets start making better decisions and pay for what it actually costs to build infastructure and not subsidize growth errr sprawl with our property taxes.

And as far rail goes our society is simply not sustainable in its present state. Airlines are cutting service. Our transportation options are very limited. At some point I have to image that we need an alternative, maybe it will take $10 gas, but when will that happen 2010? 2015? 2009? how much pain do we have to take before we admit our dependance on gas?

I think more of his point was that there is 2 ramps within a block of that site.

And in my opinion, parking can't be that big of an issue since people will park the effective distance of 3-4 or more city blocks away from the mall and walk there and that doesn't seem to hurt business there at all. I think it's more of an old stereotype people use an excuse to not frequent downtown.

Someone else made a valid point earlier, on this topic. I would agree with you that walking 2 blocks to your car is not a big deal, but I think having your vehicle in an unsecured, public ramp could be an issue. Heck, my car was broken into a couple weeks ago in my driveway, 10 feet from my house!! Parking may not need to be on-site, but I think it needs to be secure.

As I said earlier, and as other have said, it is possible to live downtown without a car if you are committed to doing so. But right now, in a practical sense, I think GBM is just about right, people expect to be able to drive. Now can they find 100 people for the apartments who are less committed to a car? We'll see but I wouldn't be surprised if they can. One the other hand, if I was building a destination (offices, retail, entertainment, etc.) there's little chance that I'd do so without parking. I'd agree that it can be ridiculous when compared to people parking at a mall parking lot, but perceptions are what they are, and the perception downtown is that people don't want to park in a ramp two blocks away.

So, what to do? In the case of the Fox Lofts (or whatever their called), we'll get an interesting test case to see if 62 units can be filled on 32 stalls (or whatever the exact numbers are). For places like the mall site, I think plans need to account for parking, sort of sad but true. In the long run, it'd be nice to see a movement to expand the bus system and link GB better to the rest of the world so that less a car dependent lifestyle can be more attractive. It doesn't have to happen all at once, but getting some movement in the right direction would be nice. And finally, just making the downtown a place that more people want to be will help. People will overlook walking two blocks across the mall parking lot but gripe about walking two blocks downtown because they want to be at the mall more than they want to be downtown. That isn't their failing, that's ours (as supporters of the downtown).

I also think that the parking situation downtown has a lot to do with how it is perceived. When people go to the mall they know where the parking is. Even if it is further away than a ramp downtown they are familiar with it, know how to use it, know how much it costs, knows its well lit and safe. I agree that currently the main reason people don't go downtown is because there is not much there to do. Take that into consideration along with people asking 1) where is the parking ramp? and 2) how much does it cost? and people have a pretty good reason not to go down there. People tend to lean towards their comfort zone (especially in the "rural" midwest) and going downtown is definitely not in that zone for most people. Why go down there when you can get everything you want at a place you know well?? I think the same can be said about much of the bus service in the area. It is inconvenient and people don't know how it works....

As for living without a car, I don't think I could ever do it. I love the city life as much as anybody, but I hate the feeling of being "trapped". I have too many friends in too many places around the state/country and would never want to sacrifice that freedom just to live downtown. I also think many of the population in the area is the same way. If all my friends, family, and places I liked to frequent were within walking distance or a bus route it would be another story.

Oh.. and the ESPN contest is the biggest crock of BS... EVER. I hate what they are trying to do, but I do like that they will be in town for a weekend that typically draws a good number of people downtown. I'm not sure how busy it is during the afternoon (not down there much during the day on the 4th), but I know it gets bustling at night for the fireworks shows. Maybe this can help paint a different light, especially if its nice out and the boats are running up and down the river.

Went by the new building on Broadway and Main/Dousman. The facade is looking better and better! I know Shopko Express is going in there as well as that one video game business (I think), but does anyone know what else is going in there?

I think more than anything I want to see the Children's Museum and CityDeck started quickly. I really think those two projects have the biggest potential (at the moment), to draw people downtown. Hopefully, the crowds during the Fourth of July will notice the construction and start to be curious about what is going on!

Btw, Danillo and OliverDP I agree with you completely... The ESPN competition is complete BS!! It's weird I was thinking the exact same thing you said about having a "Big Apple" competition. In fact, I believe a Green Bay Press Gazette reporter coined the phrase "Titletown." Nonetheless, I am excited about them coming to Green Bay on the fourth, because I work at Titletown Brewing Co. Not only is that far and away our biggest day of the year, but our name should also put us in a perfect situation for an ESPN segment... look for me to make my national television debut soon ;) haha

Beargb... you guys should put up a big sign pointing to your name.... "ESPN, Look Here!!"... All you have to do is look in the phonebook to see how many "Titletown" businesses there are... alright, back to topic :)

ESPN....Boooooo for trying do such a ridiculous thing as "Search for Titletown." You cannot copy this. I, Titletown of SSC, declare Green Bay, Titletown USA. According to ESPN John Anderson, there are at least 27 businesses that start with Titletown.

Anyways...I really think things will not to really take off until like everyone is saying...get the CityDeck built, along with a few other projects. Things will take off, its just like a new development area where businesses follow others and no one wants to be the 1st business in an area that isn't bussling with activity.

ESPN's John Anderson is a Green Bay native, graduated from one of the local high schools. Poor guy has to come here and try to explain why Palo Alto California is in the running to end up being named "Titletown". So is Parkersburg West Virginia. Sheesh. Check out the other finalist cities here (http://promo.espn.go.com/espn/contests/wendys/). By the way, this appears to be another reason to boycott Wendy's as well.

What's next? Will they change the name of the Lombardi Trophy if enough people vote on some silly internet poll to do so?

ESPN's John Anderson is a Green Bay native, graduated from one of the local high schools. Poor guy has to come here and try to explain why Palo Alto California is in the running to end up being named "Titletown". So is Parkersburg West Virginia. Sheesh. Check out the other finalist cities here (http://promo.espn.go.com/espn/contests/wendys/). By the way, this appears to be another reason to boycott Wendy's as well.

What's next? Will they change the name of the Lombardi Trophy if enough people vote on some silly internet poll to do so?

knowing how the networks love to pander to the flavor of the day, with the Pack doing well last year, retiring Favre's jersey this fall, etc., I had a thought.

What if this whole thing is a way to draw attention & then in the end declare, "see, Green Bay was Titletown all along!" I could see some network exec crafting the plan built around GB winning, & working backward from there. Or am I just another conspiracy theorist?

I really tend to disagree parking is a must for every site. If downtown is going to succeded we need to make it more friendly to walk, not drive. If you love your car that much then fine dont live downtown. I imagine that we could build and subsidize a grocery store for a number of years for the price it would cost to build a parking ramp. Why do we have to look at the present to move forward?
My wife and I are selling our home of 25 years, I am tired of cutting grass, snow shoveling and the general up keep it takes to be a home owner. We had actually looked into the condo idea for a while but then I thought, what if I don't like living in a condo, what if I actually miss having my own yard. So then we thought lets look into the apts availble down by the river including the new one going up on the east side. We thought it would be great because we like the Meyer and we have enjoyed going down to the few resturants down there and thought it would be great to be so close. But then you start lookning at the other aspects, you need a gallon of milk, nothing nearby, you need to get a few items for the meal you want to make, nothing nearby. There are some real positives being downtown, but sadly right now the negatives outweigh them so we have found a real nice place in Bellevue we are going to try for two years and then reevaluate.

As for living without a car, I don't think I could ever do it. I love the city life as much as anybody, but I hate the feeling of being "trapped". I have too many friends in too many places around the state/country and would never want to sacrifice that freedom just to live downtown. I also think many of the population in the area is the same way. If all my friends, family, and places I liked to frequent were within walking distance or a bus route it would be another story.

I respect your viewpoint on this, but I guess I have a different perspective on this. I feel "trapped" sometimes in that I pretty much HAVE to own cars. Do I like the ability to move around so quickly? Sure but it comes at such a high price individually and as a society. You know I blather on my blog about the destruction of our cities due to overuse of cars and all of the other negative aspects that go along with them. Just one more rant if I may... As an individual I figure I'd be at least $50,000 to $75,000 richer if I had not been owning & driving cars over the past 15 years of my life. From our society's standpoint, the extreme overuse not only destroys cityscapes but also pollutes and creates dependencies on foreign oil.
And little discussed, for some reason, is the safety aspect: Over 40,000 people die in car accidents each year--one every 13 minutes. And that's just in the U.S. The World Heath Organization estimates that about 3000 people die in crashes each day worldwide. We freak out about so many other unlikely deaths meanwhile we risk so much every day just by driving. OK rant complete.

So you know what else would make living in downtown without a car more palatable? A regional passenger rail depot would, I think. If the MWRRS gets built, someone could jump on a train and get to the downtowns of any of the Fox Cities very quickly, on down to Milwaukee and Chicago and all sorts of other places. We've had this rail discussion before, I know....

I wouldn't really want to keep my car in the parking ramp all the time either, by the way.

But then you start lookning at the other aspects, you need a gallon of milk, nothing nearby, you need to get a few items for the meal you want to make, nothing nearby. There are some real positives being downtown, but sadly right now the negatives outweigh them so we have found a real nice place in Bellevue we are going to try for two years and then reevaluate.

I think you are right about this, and it's what is a major holdback for many others besides yourself. This is that old "which comes first, the chicken or the egg" discussion that some of us keep having here. Will residents come without amenities? Will amenities come without residents? How do we get this thing moving?

Well anyway Good luck to you.

So you know what else would make living in downtown without a car more palatable? A regional passenger rail depot would, I think. If the MWRRS gets built, someone could jump on a train and get to the downtowns of any of the Fox Cities very quickly, on down to Milwaukee and Chicago and all sorts of other places. We've had this rail discussion before, I know....

I wouldn't really want to keep my car in the parking ramp all the time either, by the way.

I am DREAMING of the day that we have this!! I travel to Milwaukee about once a week for work, & every time I have to drive to the airport, pay to park my car there, rent a car to take to MKE, & on the way home, reverse the process. It cuts into my time at home, & is generally a pain.

A couple times a year, I have to go to Chicago for work. In those cases, I drive to MKE & take the train to Chicago from there, to avoid the traffic & parking headaches. A rail from GB to MKE would be a DREAM for me!

I do travel pretty extensively for my job, & have been in many big cities that have very extensive public transportation. It's the most liberating thing you can imagine--no worries about traffic. no worries about parking. no worries about someone breaking into your car. no worries about making a wrong turn. The negatives are few & far between (the one that comes to mind was the drugged out/crazy guy next to us that pulled out a giant knife on the subway in NYC--minor details... :lol:)

Wow-So much pent-up energy with all of these replies lately! Seems to me this means we should all have another get-together for drinks sometime soon. :cheers: It would pretty much HAVE to be at Titletown Brewery this time! We could do like the GB environmental group, they have "Green Drinks" at Kavarna once per month. Maybe we should have something like that? I'd sure rather be out somewhere socializing than sitting on this damn compjuter typing all the time (although, the Brewers are doing well..and this may be the last time I can watch from home...shutting off my Cable TV to save costs..high gas prices, you know...)

Wow-So much pent-up energy with all of these replies lately! Seems to me this means we should all have another get-together for drinks sometime soon. :cheers: It would pretty much HAVE to be at Titletown Brewery this time! We could do like the GB environmental group, they have "Green Drinks" at Kavarna once per month. Maybe we should have something like that? I'd sure rather be out somewhere socializing than sitting on this damn compjuter typing all the time (although, the Brewers are doing well..and this may be the last time I can watch from home...shutting off my Cable TV to save costs..high gas prices, you know...)

did you say beer? I'm in..

They already have the Downtown Brown & Bridge Out Stout, perhaps we should come up with an appropriate name for a new brew? We clearly have a man on the inside that can influence decisions like this...:lol: I'm wondering if the best bet would be to re-name an existing beer. I'm thinking, "we want a real downtown brown"

Here are a few pics of the Shopko Express building. The brickwork on the Dousman side is still in progress.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh103/masagb/DSC05883.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh103/masagb/DSC05885.jpg

I don't know if I would use this site to get rid of the eyesore, crime ridden, pay by the hour, flee bag hotel. Or if it's because the site is in a half way decent location.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh103/masagb/fleabag.jpg

If any of you live there...my apologies :)

I don't know if I would use this site to get rid of the eyesore, crime ridden, pay by the hour, flee bag hotel. Or if it's because the site is in a half way decent location.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh103/masagb/fleabag.jpg

If any of you live there...my apologies :)

Tear down the prostitution den & build a courthouse....substitute one form of corruption with another.. (sorry, had to be said..)

BTW, I didn't make it downtown for the festivities yesterday--too much family stuff. Who went & how was it?

I was working the street tent all day at Titletown and we were really busy, so I think that was a good sign. Leicht Park seemed packed, and the weather was perfect! What I saw of the fireworks was really cool!

Oh by the way, I was talking to my cousin a couple days ago who does advertising and communications jobs for Schreiber. Right now, he is working on a promotional video for the new Children's Museum (because Schreiber is a major donor). He seemed very excited about how cool this museum was going to be. It is supposed to be state of the art--possibly one of the best in the entire midwest! Some of the exhibits he heard about were a giant two story tree, a walk through and interactive human body exhibit, some sort of water-related thing, and I forget the others but they sounded very innovative. I am hoping we are getting one similar to the one at Navy Pier in Chicago!! I think this could really be more of a plug for downtown than we thought. I mean this draws both kids and parents to the area! This is definitely more than just a relocation of the former children's museum... this is a "grand" project ;) Hopefully we see progress on CityDeck and the Parking Ramp retail soon!

btw Flats on the Fox website is now up and running. It's nothing fancy, and the floor plans aren't up yet but here it is: http://flatsonthefox.com/

Oh by the way, I was talking to my cousin a couple days ago who does advertising and communications jobs for Schreiber. Right now, he is working on a promotional video for the new Children's Museum (because Schreiber is a major donor). He seemed very excited about how cool this museum was going to be. It is supposed to be state of the art--possibly one of the best in the entire midwest! Some of the exhibits he heard about were a giant two story tree, a walk through and interactive human body exhibit, some sort of water-related thing, and I forget the others but they sounded very innovative. I am hoping we are getting one similar to the one at Navy Pier in Chicago!! I think this could really be more of a plug for downtown than we thought. I mean this draws both kids and parents to the area! This is definitely more than just a relocation of the former children's museum... this is a "grand" project ;) Hopefully we see progress on CityDeck and the Parking Ramp retail soon!

The proposed exhibits are shown the the website. Look pretty interesting...

http://www.gbchildrensmuseum.org/exhibits/

And in my opinion, parking can't be that big of an issue since people will park the effective distance of 3-4 or more city blocks away from the mall and walk there and that doesn't seem to hurt business there at all. I think it's more of an old stereotype people use an excuse to not frequent downtown.

Regarding parking at the Fox Lofts being a couple blocks away: There's a big difference between parking farther away for business and parking farther away for your residence. Especially if you're using your car every day, as I suspect many of the FL residents would. All groceries, retail purchases, home improvement items, kids, etc would need to be schlepped a few blocks every time you use the car. Whereas it may be infrequent that you're parking that far away at a business, especially at those times when you're planning a big purchase.

What normal mall has parking that's 3-4 effective city blocks away? Looking at Bay Park Square, the farthest you'd have to walk from parking spot to mall entrance is 250 yards. That's two city blocks. And the only time the mall is ever so busy you need to park that far away is during the Christmas shopping season. So most of the time you're walking 1 block max in the parking lot. (now don't get me wrong, I don't mind walking to businesses or parking farther out. But we don't need to exaggerate things either.)

OliverDP hit it on the head when he said people are familiar with parking lots but not with parking ramps and street parking, and that is a big factor for downtown.

Here's the Midwest Regional Rail Initiative Report:
http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/state/docs/railmidwest.pdf
Here's another good report for US Passenger Rail in 2050:
http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/state/docs/prwg-report.pdf

Why can't any of our leaders (national, state, local) see that we desperately need a much bigger and comprehensive intercity passenger rail network? (and of course to go with that, top-notch local transit to complete the trip)

What normal mall has parking that's 3-4 effective city blocks away? Looking at Bay Park Square, the farthest you'd have to walk from parking spot to mall entrance is 250 yards. That's two city blocks. And the only time the mall is ever so busy you need to park that far away is during the Christmas shopping season. So most of the time you're walking 1 block max in the parking lot. (now don't get me wrong, I don't mind walking to businesses or parking farther out. But we don't need to exaggerate things either.)

I'm not going to get out my tape measure and debate the semantics of my argument. My original point still stands. Both parking ramps that will serve the lofts are less than 2 blocks away, easily.


OliverDP hit it on the head when he said people are familiar with parking lots but not with parking ramps and street parking, and that is a big factor for downtown.

Parking is only a layered excuse. People who live in urban areas outside of Green Bay and the Fox Valley rarely complain about parking downtown, and not just because they have other alternatives than bringing the car.

Just as parking lots are accepted in suburbia, street parking and ramps will become the norm once people become accustomed to downtown. And that is our goal here.

Regarding Fox Lofts parking, if I remember right, there are 32 (or whatever) spots dedicated for the lofts, but that doesn't mean that there are only 32 stalls available to renters. The idea is that stalls used for the museum and all during the day would be open at night for residents, adding somewhat to the available space for them. I don't know how this would work in practice, but it isn't like this amount of parking hasn't been tried before anywhere. Time will tell. It would suck to have to park two blocks away from your home if you are using a car on a daily basis.

It would suck to have to park two blocks away from your home if you are using a car on a daily basis. That I won't debate.

I guess I'm making a large assumption that people who will be living here would be one of the thousands of people who already work downtown, or someone who could use the metro bus system to get to work easily, since getting somewhere from downtown on a bus is much easier than going from the southwest side to the northwest side.

I see Smet Construction has put out their sign on the 1st floor of the parking ramp...I guess something should be starting soon. Hopefully it will be done before the Astor Park Project!

Green Bay city leaders and real estate developers broke ground Wednesday morning on the new City Center at Washington in Green Bay.

The City Center will be located in the first floor of the Cherry Street parking ramp on the corner of Washington and East Walnut streets in downtown Green Bay.

Officials say it will hold 11,000-square feet of much-needed retail space for people living, working, or visiting downtown.

The project is expected to be finished by early fall.

early fall? That's a couple months away. I guess they're moving quick. Have we heard anything yet about what's actually going in there? The only thing I remember was a rumor of a laundromat, which seemed odd to me.

You know what downtown could use? A pizza place. Not a chain, delivery place, but a good local pizza joint like Frank & Pat's. That could definitely be a destination for downtown. I heard at one point that Sgambati's in Depere wanted to get downtown also. They have very good pizza, but sort of a strange location right now..

early fall? That's a couple months away. I guess they're moving quick. Have we heard anything yet about what's actually going in there? The only thing I remember was a rumor of a laundromat, which seemed odd to me.

You know what downtown could use? A pizza place. Not a chain, delivery place, but a good local pizza joint like Frank & Pat's. That could definitely be a destination for downtown. I heard at one point that Sgambati's in Depere wanted to get downtown also. They have very good pizza, but sort of a strange location right now..

I know I will slammed for this because they are chains, but something like BW3, Chipotle (since they are getting a location in Appleton - we need one in Green Bay) or Friday's would be great. Something that would be a constant draw and utilize a good deal of space... let the chain bashing begin.

I know I will slammed for this because they are chains, but something like BW3, Chipotle (since they are getting a location in Appleton - we need one in Green Bay) or Friday's would be great. Something that would be a constant draw and utilize a good deal of space... let the chain bashing begin.

No, I agree completely. I think a mix of national chains & local places would work best. The advantage that chains have is that it doesn't take as long to get established. New local restaurants often rely on word of mouth, reputation, etc., to really get the business off the ground. Something like a BW3's would immediately draw people.

I wish that new Chili's was going downtown instead of WMason. I agree about the Pizza place too. DT needs a casual spot where a couple can eat for $25. It seems like too many of the places are upscale,dress nice..expect to spend $50...am I wrong? Where can a guy and his girl walk in wearing jeans and a tshirt..eat for under $30 and not be in a bar?

A Frank and Pats or a Krolls would be killer downtown. Something overlooking the river with big windows. I miss the Terrace Room,it was high up and cheap and a fun place to get lunch.

Chicagoenvy- It was just in the paper that there will be a new sportsbar that will be geared more towards food and less towards alcohol. Also, in the PG today the owner of the ramp space says he wants to get a casual dining establishment in there so that is also a good sign that there will be a better mix of dining in the downtown district.

It also said that the owner of Sara Investments was interested in putting in offers on two other buildings downtown. What other buildings are for sale down there right now? The only 2 I can think of are the Washington professional building (a few doors south of Al's Hamburger) and the JC Penney building. Speaking of the JC Penney building, when I was down for the 4th I saw the for sale sign and another that said "zoned B1" Could anyone explain what a B1 zoning means. Thanks... maybe downtown finally has that momentum we've been looking for to get things rolling.

Speaking of the JC Penney building, when I was down for the 4th I saw the for sale sign and another that said "zoned B1" Could anyone explain what a B1 zoning means. Thanks... maybe downtown finally has that momentum we've been looking for to get things rolling.

One thing I know is that the building is not zoned B-1. There is no B1 in the Green Bay Zoning Code. The property is zoned D2 - Downtown 2 District. That is the most intense downtown district which allows for no maximum height and greater utilization of proeprty. The District is geared towards residential/commercial/retail/office/entertainment type uses.

What about the S&S Building or the Frankenthal Building as possible investment proeprties?

Sports bar may make home downtown
Press-Gazette • July 10, 2008

The Bar, popular twin tavern-restaurant establishments on each side of Green Bay, may soon gain a sibling in the city's downtown district.

The city's Protection & Welfare Committee granted preliminary approval of a liquor license for Hagermeister Park, a restaurant-bar to be opened at 301-325 N. Washington St. The City Council will consider the recommendation Tuesday.

According to the business plan that one of the owners, Jesse Miller, filed with the committee, the business will open in part of the city's RiverCenter condominium and retail building being developed on the Fox River.

Hagermeister Park will feature chicken wings, salads and a variety of entrees. Taking its name from the original venue where the Green Bay Packers first played, the operation will maintain a sports theme like that of The Bar brands but will focus 60 percent of its business efforts on foods sales and 40 percent on alcohol sales.



Work to start on Cherry St. ramp's retail space
Shops planned for ground level of parking structure
By Richard Ryman • rryman@greenbaypressgazette.com • July 10, 2008

Construction will begin Friday on retail development in the Cherry Street parking ramp in downtown Green Bay.

Sara Investment Real Estate LLC of Middleton will build and lease 4,000 square feet of retail space facing East Walnut Street and 7,000 square feet facing North Washington Street. The shops will be on the ground floor, under the 802-space ramp.

Eric Schwartz, president of Sara Investment, said after a groundbreaking ceremony Wednesday that the shops will be a blend of service and specialty retail, such as casual dining restaurants, dry cleaners, fitness providers or, perhaps, medical providers.

"We have tenant meetings today. I anticipate we'll open with a couple of tenants," he said.

Construction will take four or five months.

The city sold the property to Sara Investment for $300,000, or about $25.45 per square foot. The city had asked $33 per square foot for the property for two years. It had several offers, but none approached the asking price.

Mayor Jim Schmitt called the site a premium corner. "I have learned it is critical to find the right developer," he said. "Sara Investment is a company we are delighted to partner with on this project."

Sara Investment owns properties around the state, including six in the Green Bay metro area. They include a shopping center at the junction of East Main and East Mason streets, and Market Square shopping center on the southeast corner of Military and Shawano avenues, all in Green Bay, and 1525-1551 Park Place, 2154-2164 S. Ridge Road, and the parking ramp property at 2920 Ramada Way, all in Ashwaubenon.

Sara Investment has more than 150 tenants statewide, Schwartz said. They include a mix of locally owned and national businesses.

Schwartz said he anticipated little trouble finding tenants. He said the company traditionally averages one lease-signing a week, and a struggling economy has not affected that average.

With downtown occupants such as city hall, the county courthouse, the Meyer Theatre and the Nicolet National Bank building, which he called "one of the most tasteful buildings I've ever seen," Schwartz said there are plenty of draws for tenants. He said new apartments and condominiums under construction downtown will add to the attraction. "Your downtown is clean and fun. I'm putting in offers on two other downtown properties," he said.

Smet Construction is the general contractor for the project. Sperry Van Ness is the commercial real estate broker.

One thing I know is that the building is not zoned B-1. There is no B1 in the Green Bay Zoning Code. The property is zoned D2 - Downtown 2 District. That is the most intense downtown district which allows for no maximum height and greater utilization of proeprty. The District is geared towards residential/commercial/retail/office/entertainment type uses.

What about the S&S Building or the Frankenthal Building as possible investment proeprties?

Those were the 2 I was thinking of also. I guess technically the buildings don't have to be vacant for Sara to purchase them, so who knows.

As for the JCP building, I saw the sign & it did say B1--apparently the sellers aren't familiar with the code? :(

I was surprised to see it for sale--I thought it was going to be used as the expanded conference space for the KI center? I was never fond of that plan anyway. It seems like it would be too disconnected from the KI center & hotel. If I'm staying at hotel sierra & attending a conference in...let's say...January, the last thing I'm going to want to do is schlep across a busy snowy street every day..

Where can a guy and his girl walk in wearing jeans and a tshirt..eat for under $30 and not be in a bar?

Titletown! Though I don't disagree with the premise.

As for national chains, the right ones can work well and actually help other businesses by making the downtown more of a dining destination. They are also a good barometer for the downtown. If/when we see interest in one opening down there, it will mean that the area is meeting criteria they've established for what constitutes a suitable place to open a location.

However, dining is very competitive, and as new places open, some of them or some other existing ones are going to fail. We'll need to A) do our best to help promote existing locally owned businesses, and B) not see it as some sort of failure of the downtown when a place closes. But increased interest in opening dining places would only be a good indicator for the area.

...the Nicolet National Bank building, which he called "one of the most tasteful buildings I've ever seen,"

Awesome! Good on Nicolet Bank.

Schwartz said there are plenty of draws for tenants. He said new apartments and condominiums under construction downtown will add to the attraction. "Your downtown is clean and fun. I'm putting in offers on two other downtown properties," he said.

That's what I like to hear! While there are naysayers, and loud naysayers at that, here's another person who sees what's really happening downtown, and is putting dollars behind that.

If I'm staying at hotel sierra & attending a conference in...let's say...January, the last thing I'm going to want to do is schlep across a busy snowy street every day..

Well, there is a skywalk there, and my guess is they'd link that up as they did when they built the KI. I do agree that there may be better locations.

Sports bar may make home downtown
Press-Gazette • July 10, 2008

The Bar, popular twin tavern-restaurant establishments on each side of Green Bay, may soon gain a sibling in the city's downtown district.

The city's Protection & Welfare Committee granted preliminary approval of a liquor license for Hagermeister Park, a restaurant-bar to be opened at 301-325 N. Washington St. The City Council will consider the recommendation Tuesday.

According to the business plan that one of the owners, Jesse Miller, filed with the committee, the business will open in part of the city's RiverCenter condominium and retail building being developed on the Fox River.

Hagermeister Park will feature chicken wings, salads and a variety of entrees. Taking its name from the original venue where the Green Bay Packers first played, the operation will maintain a sports theme like that of The Bar brands but will focus 60 percent of its business efforts on foods sales and 40 percent on alcohol sales.
The Bar already has a very successful outlet in downtown Appleton - even with Appleton's smoking ban - so I'd think that downtown Green Bay would be a natural for them.

I'm not that familiar with the Green Bay bar scene, but are there currently any other true sports bars besides Coaches Corner in the downtown area?

Mike

The Bar already has a very successful outlet in downtown Appleton - even with Appleton's smoking ban - so I'd think that downtown Green Bay would be a natural for them.

I'm not that familiar with the Green Bay bar scene, but are there currently any other true sports bars besides Coaches Corner in the downtown area?

Mike

I think Coaches Corner needs a little competition. They offer a niche downtown, but the thick smoke and crowded atmosphere is a little bit of a turnoff for me. I doubt "The Bar" will be non-smoking, but hopefully a larger setting with better ventilation will help. They should have a great spot overlooking the river and the new city deck.

Night Rider- I completely agree with you regarding Coaches Corner. I've noticed the place sliding a little bit over the past year and a half since I've been able to go there. The food isn't as good as it used to be and I swear it gets smokier every time I go in there. Granted I don't think another place will come in and be able to beat there drink prices, but I would like to see another larger sports bar downtown. Especially one right in the "heart" of downtown. Coaches seems so disconnected from everything else down there, but hopefully that will change when the mall is demolished.

With regards to the mall, I know they were awarded an extension, but has anything be said regarding the mall since that point?

Deleted - Double Post

Coaches' Corner is all right but I agree, it is one of the most smoke-filled places I've ever been in. Another sports bar would be a nice addition.

...the county courthouse, the Meyer Theatre and the Nicolet National Bank building, which he called "one of the most tasteful buildings I've ever seen,"...

I'd have to think Mr Schwartz was talking about the courthouse or the Meyer Theatre and that the media twisted the sentence here. Not that the Nicolet Bank building is bad, it certainly isn't, the Nicolet Bank building is probably the best new building in the downtown---but the most tasteful he's ever seen? Maybe I suppose, it's all a matter of taste.

So anyway there is some good news & continued momentum for the downtown--albeit smaller projects--but the small projects, if there's enough of 'em, are just as exciting to me as the big projects. What was the timeline on the T. Wall mall project extension again? Are we getting close to seeing anything?

Another question I'll throw out there for you to chew on--perhaps we've alluded to it before but here it is again:

Does the suffering economy--which is largely suffering because of the direct & indirect consequences of high fuel costs--hurt or help the downtown?
On one hand, the fact that we're in an economic slump doesn't bode well for any sort of new investment or developments, but on the other hand, because the fuel costs are what is driving the problem, does this actually help the downtown developments because they're in a walkable environment less dependent on cars, trucks & fuel? Consider the downtown businesses are typically not based on the global economics or "just in time" deliveries where stuff is shipped across the globe like the business model of say, a big box or chain? Does the idea of smaller, locally-run business in the downtown mean that things could actuall thrive in this new economy?

Another question I'll throw out there for you to chew on--perhaps we've alluded to it before but here it is again:

Does the suffering economy--which is largely suffering because of the direct & indirect consequences of high fuel costs--hurt or help the downtown?
On one hand, the fact that we're in an economic slump doesn't bode well for any sort of new investment or developments, but on the other hand, because the fuel costs are what is driving the problem, does this actually help the downtown developments because they're in a walkable environment less dependent on cars, trucks & fuel? Consider the downtown businesses are typically not based on the global economics or "just in time" deliveries where stuff is shipped across the globe like the business model of say, a big box or chain? Does the idea of smaller, locally-run business in the downtown mean that things could actuall thrive in this new economy?

A good question. How many people have you seen that took a (insert random body part)-kicking to sell their SUV's at a loss & buy a hybrid because of the gas prices? People are a weird bunch. I'm glad I'm not one of them. On one hand, knee-jerk reactions & the "I need to be more efficient" attitude, but on the other hand, I think there is either a lack of understanding of the efficient downtown lifestyle, or a lack of interest.

I think it's a combination of both. I will admit, I'm one of those guys that loves to work in the yard, spend a couple hours on the lawn, etc. Tough to do that in a condo..

So I go on vacation and there are like 5 pages of catching up to do, nice...

Well you know downtowns all over the country have been in a renassance for a number of years, and Green Bay is like 5-10 years behind, so we will see. I now seem to think that people around here will continue to drive no matter what price gas is and the people who just don't have the cash will continue to suffer.

So is the segull problem solved, I was down there today and didn't notice too many.

As far as "the Bar" downtown, I thought that I remember reading that it was going to be a family setting that would complment the museum, I'm not sure that would include smoke free, lets hope so.

So when is this get together at Titletown?