Green Bay Development News [Archive] - Page 9

Puant

August 27th, 2008, 09:01 PM

One more thought I have on this "crossing the FOx River" thing...

When one really thinks about it---Why do we have bridges? To get people across the river, right? Now think about how expensive our current bridges are--Millions & Millions of dollars for each one. Primarily so we can get people across the river. But here's the catch---Our society deems it "GOOD" to build these expensive bridges but only if they take people IN CARS across them. Try spending any public money to enable people to move across the river any other way (say, by foot or on a trolley, or even by human catapult) and so many people out there start grabbing the pitchforks, getting all up in arms about "wasteful spending" and all of that. Why is it OK to move people ONLY if those people are in cars?

Now, I can see why we need car & truck bridges for say the Highway 43 bridge because nobody really walks around on either end of that, and there is a lot of freight carried across it--but the downtown is built for pedestrians, lots of people get around without cars (or want to). Granted, I'm glad we at least got wide sidewalks on a couple of the bridges...but what I'm really getting at is why we as a society can't spend any money on something like a trolley. It moves people just the same as cars. A trolley would be heated. The bridges are wide enough for trolley tracks. They're not perfect but the're the closest thing to perfection as far as moving people around the downtown. They're relatively inexpensive to put in. They can run on electricity--less polluting & easy to generate by many different means (hydro, etc). They're heated...people can warm up in them in the winter. They're fast & easy to jump on & off of -- from either side. Trolly tracks laid down in key places signal immediate "permanency" which could entice businesses to actually find these key trolley routes as good places to place their business. They're unique--adding a lot to what the downtown is all about. They're fun--we've had them in the city's history and they were popular then. People miss them. I could go on, sorry for the rant... I'm just so disappointed to think that we'll never have them.........I might as well get into that human cannon.

By the way, it appears that guy shot out of that cannon is about to impale himself on that crude wooden fence. Do you have a shot of him landing too?

Night Rider

August 27th, 2008, 11:48 PM

By the way, it appears that guy shot out of that cannon is about to impale himself on that crude wooden fence. Do you have a shot of him landing too?

Missed the landing, but caught up with the guy at the hospital! :tiasd:

http://www.mitzenmacher.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/MU026_FULL_BODY_CAST1.jpg

Danillo

August 28th, 2008, 12:28 AM

From Mythbusters, perfect for downtown?

mo_oigyFlTA&hl

Maybe need a bigger net.

nowpc2

August 28th, 2008, 04:57 AM

Puant, you hit the nail on the head. Even though I own a car I do not drive. Walking is the primary way myself and my wife get around.

There are still many areas within the metro area where I walk that do not even have sidewalks still, although this has gotten better over time.

One more thought I have on this "crossing the FOx River" thing...

When one really thinks about it---Why do we have bridges? To get people across the river, right? Now think about how expensive our current bridges are--Millions & Millions of dollars for each one. Primarily so we can get people across the river. But here's the catch---Our society deems it "GOOD" to build these expensive bridges but only if they take people IN CARS across them. Try spending any public money to enable people to move across the river any other way (say, by foot or on a trolley, or even by human catapult) and so many people out there start grabbing the pitchforks, getting all up in arms about "wasteful spending" and all of that. Why is it OK to move people ONLY if those people are in cars?

titletown

August 28th, 2008, 04:31 PM

Picture of what the streetcar map looked like during its peak. Notice Washington St, Monroe, Broadway as well as Main and Walnut were nicely covered downtown. It was said that there was 44 miles of track that cost $3 M to build and in the early 1920's ridership was as high as 3.7 Million a year.

Source: http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/wlhba/articleView.asp?pg=1&orderby=&id=6670&pn=3&adv=yes&hdl=&np=&ln=&fn=&q=&y1=&y2=&ci=&co=Brown&mhd=&shd=

http://hometown.aol.com/chirailfan/grbmapg.gif

National City Lines bought out over 40+ US cities and replaced the streetcars with GM buses...thus the good ole' "GM Streetcar conspiracy"... Those bastards were probably behind our loss of the streetcar. :devil:

Also, my buddy who works at the WPS Building says that a car w/ 4 cameras on it's roof was by his work yesterday. It was the TeleAtlas car that takes pictures for the Google Streetview. It was similiar to the car in this picture:

http://www.autoblog.com/media/2006/01/Tele-Atlas-Sienna.JPG

Danillo

August 28th, 2008, 04:57 PM

In all honesty I think the biggest thing that would help promote transit improvements here will be more success for transit projects in Milwaukee and Madison. As long as Milwaukee continues to struggle to make changes that are even more vital for them, it's going to be basically impossible to get any sort of system up here as nice as it would be.

Puant

August 29th, 2008, 04:56 AM

titletown

August 29th, 2008, 05:43 AM

Well that new rule sure didn't benefit the Packers in the end of the game. Oh well, it is preseason right! Puant- Since you brought it up this is what I know in the 'burbs :soon:

Ashwaubenon - Aloft is just starting the frame work. Set to open Feb 5, 2009.

You Tube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhgORdJOnDE

http://rohitbhargava.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/secondlife_aloft.jpg

De Pere- On the St. Norbert campus the new Mulva Library is going up.

http://www.snc.edu/library/images/mulva_library.jpg
Webcam link:
http://www.snc.edu/webcam/

Puant

August 29th, 2008, 06:10 AM

I'm not sure I should say this....but "Mulva Library?" Seinfeld episode. Isn't it Delores?

Don't forget to answer the question--Why do we care about downtown Green Bay so much?

Chicagoenvy

August 29th, 2008, 06:41 AM

"Why do we care about downtown Green Bay so much?"

Beacuse it's the poster child for unrealized potential and a shining example of how to waste prime natural rescources.

HEY! Look at this river..lets ignore it!

I guess as someone who has live dhere his entire life for 30+ years I just look around and see GB has having the chance to have been so much more than beer and Packers.

GB could have a hot,hip fun and productive downtown w/o building a single structure over 10 floors. While I appreciate impressive,modern skylines GB doesn't need that to have an exciting dt.

Maybe it's like the child who you envisioned going to college and getting a great job and no matter what you do for him he just does his thing even though he could be so much more.

Maybe we give our home city too much credit? Maybe GB is what it is and nothing more.

I think we are doomed by our past. Just gigantic mistakes (some in hindsight) that have left us bruised and on the mat.

What if NWTC was downtown? AMS?
What if they had found a way to shoehorn the Resch downtown?

I guess my mindset is DT is where 'stuff' is. That to me is downtown. Suburbs are for schools,houses,parks and Walmart. Downtown is for the BIG stuff.

Our 'big stuff' isn't downtown. It never has been.

I look at our downtown and I see a potential B+ student who is just happy getting C's all the time.

Morse

August 29th, 2008, 07:02 AM

All of this started of my love for the Packers and coming to realize that Green Bay is so much more then them. I love the area and really want to see it succeed. These really aren't in any specific order as far as a ranking but for me:

1.) History-At one point, Green Bay was building gems like the Bellin Building, the Courthouse, Northern Building, YMCA to name a few and to someone who is interested in architecture and history, I want to see these old buildings be invigorated with new, urban buildings. Sure, I want a couple of talls, but mixing good, urban sized scale buildings (Shopko Express) with the old to create a vibrant area is so cool. This leads me into potential/excitement.

2.) Potential/Excitement-Sure, it currently has its downfalls, mistakes have been made and we all gripe about wanting development to move quicker. Things are happening and to look at the silver lining, Green Bay has a unique opportunity to 'start over' and rebuild. We can make it want we want and that is exciting. I am excited about what it could become and hopefully will become and that keeps me interested.

3.) Civic/State Pride-This is the city the Packers are in and with that comes instant appeal. I think Green Bay needs to live up to being an NFL city and I do not mean that as derogitory. What my thought is I don't want people to look at Green Bay, WI and say if they didn't have the Packers it would be just another run of the mill, mid-size, midwestern town. I want them to say it has so much to offer such as being safe, offers cultural ammenities, is progressive, great schools, work force, etc. With that said, many people look at a downtown and base impressions off of it. It is the core or driving force of a city. I am a Wisconsin guy through and through and want to be able to brag about our towns, especially the one that has the most unique and storied franchise in football.

jerkylips999

August 29th, 2008, 05:43 PM

Titletown-
Thanks for posting that link and making that map. Lots of "misgivings" about streetcars back then as well--though the biggest issue appears to be the fear that they would have scared the horses. Not sure we have to worrry too much about that anymore.

Is there anything exciting going on out in Ashaubenon or anywhere? Why do you suppose we spend 98% of our time yakking about downtown Green Bay on here? I have my own ideas but I'm wondering what your thoughts on this are. Why do we even care?

I can tell you why I care, & it has less to do with "realizing potential" or "civic pride" and more to do with my selfish wants & needs.

I know I've mentioned this before, but I travel a ton for my job, & have been to MANY cities that have great downtowns & urban living. I love it. I was in Boston earlier this week & spent every evening just walking around checking stuff out, eating street food, etc. I would love to have that type of environment (smaller scale, of course) here.

I would love to be able to walk to the convenience store down the block to pick up a couple things instead of driving 5 miles to the grocery store.

I would love to be able to go for a walk to decide where to eat dinner instead of having to decide before I leave the house because it's my only destination.

I would love to have downtown space where people just hang out (e.g. the proposed boardwalk).

I really enjoy urban living, but until we really get there, living downtown is kind of the worst of both worlds with the best of none. None of the convenience of living downtown, but none of the perks of living in the burbs (quieter, big yard, picket fence, 2.5 kids, etc:lol:)

That's why I care about the downtown redevelopment.

jerkylips999

August 29th, 2008, 07:07 PM

Night Rider

August 29th, 2008, 07:26 PM

This is obviously a step in the right direction, but it's discouraging to hear that it will take 9 years to implement AFTER they secure funding..

With the minimum on the 9 year time frame, the opening date of Astor Place & the Amtrak can probably share a grand opening celebration.:llama:

The llama has no significance, he was due for a cameo appearance :)

Puant

August 30th, 2008, 02:40 AM

interesting article on PG today regarding increased interest in bringing Amtrak service to GB..

This is obviously a step in the right direction, but it's discouraging to hear that it will take 9 years to implement AFTER they secure funding..

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080829/GPG03/808290653/1247

Wow! Glad you pointed the news story out here, I would have probably missed it otherwise. Time to start writing our elected representatives and let them know we support this! Also time for another blog article (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2007/08/regional-rail-to-serve-green-bay-once.html) for what that's worth. Also nice job from a couple of you to post comments on the P-G site. Nice to see some coherent, intelligent and POSITIVE comments over there. Usually the comments over there on the P-G are overly negative, incoherent and worthless. (by the way, read this Onion article (http://www.theonion.com/content/news/local_idiot_to_post_comment_on) if you haven't seen it)

Obviously we all want to see the train station in downtown Green Bay--though of course where the stops are perhaps some runs could also make a stop in DePere or even Wrightstown as well. Adds to the time, but there could also be "express" runs at certain times of the day that don't make all the smaller stops.

I didn't think the Green Bay line would be Amtrak though--I had the idea it would be run by some other entity. Anyone know?

Kramerica

August 30th, 2008, 05:39 AM

There is a big bill in Congress right now putting forth a five-year Amtrak plan (as opposed to the current year-to-year budget battle) that would essentially double the yearly budget for Amtrak and allow them to plan into the future for purchasing equipment and making track improvements. I wasn't aware that Green Bay service would be funded, but if this article is right, that's really awesome.

Anyone in Wisconsin interested in passenger train travel should read the Midwest Regional Rail Initiative report (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/state/docs/railmidwest.pdf). If implemented, it would be a great boon to our state, the Midwest, and the nation. Look on page 10 and you'll see the planned number of daily trips. There are 17 between Chicago and Milwaukee, 7 between Milwaukee and Green Bay, and 10 between Milwaukee and Madison. So it appears they are planning on extending the existing Hiawatha service between MKE and CHI. 7 trips Chicago to Green Bay plus 10 trips Chicago to Madison equal the 17 Chicago to Milwaukee trips.

As for stations, if the cover on page 2 can be believed, the stops in NE Wisconsin would be GB, Appleton, Neenah, Oshkosh, and Fond du Lac. Once long-distance trains are set up, I think NE Wisconsin would be well served to set up a commuter train along the route, making lots more local stops, such as De Pere, Wrightstown, Kaukauna, etc.

Keep in mind of course that the MWRRI is just a broad plan, and that changes are to be expected during implementation. But if only half this plan comes to fruition, that'll be fantastic!

Puant

August 30th, 2008, 06:27 AM

titletown

August 30th, 2008, 07:35 AM

I too wrote to both Senators. Thanks Puant! Wouldn't that be awesome to be able to hop on the train to Chi Town. When I was 13 years old (in 1992) my family and I went to Winter Park, Colorado by Amtrak from Milwaukee. It took about 24 hours to get there. So many people in Wisconsin or even in the US have never been on a train before. And sorry I do not count the Little Train at Bay Beach. :lol: I have to try and keep up with the comedians on here! Much better crowd then the jokers that always leave negative comments on GBPG is right ! I always see the comments, "Must be from Sheboygan" or "better ban guns or knives or something else!":ohno: Did you guys see the Greater Green Bay's branding initiative? The Blue and Green dots campaign. I love when Mayor Schmitt said on the news in a Godfather like way, "Your going to learn more about the Green and Blue Dots...in the near future."

Mayor Schmitt on the Green and Blue Dots @ 1:06

http://www.wbay.com/global/video/popup/pop_playerLaunch.asp?vt1=v&clipFormat=flv&clipId1=2857907&at1=News&h1=Green Bay's Dot Mystery

Nativist

August 30th, 2008, 06:17 PM

Great question! For me, in no particular order:

1.) Sustainability. Urban areas are more environmentally friendly, require less energy, preserve more open land for agriculture and recreation, etc.
2.) Community & Civic spirit. When people live closer together, they are more aware of one another and behave accordingly. Living in the suburbs leads people to live as if their choices have no impact on their fellow citizens. People in cities are more politically engaged and have a stronger sense of being rooted in a place.
3.) Commerce. A prosperous downtown attracts more activity which makes it even more prosperous.
4.) Personal Preference. I've lived in Boston, Brooklyn, Baltimore, Bologna, and Chicago. Urban areas are just more interesting, more convivial, more convenient, and more enjoyable. Green Bay once had this, it lost it and I want it back.

mgk920

August 31st, 2008, 07:39 AM

Well here's how I spent my Friday night: goofed around with the kids, had a little campfire in the back yard, yada yada yada and then wrote a message to support PASSENGER RAIL to Senator Kohl (http://kohl.senate.gov/gen_contact.html) and Senator Feingold. (http://feingold.senate.gov/contact.html)

I suggest you do the same, especially the yada yada yada and the messages to your congressfolks.

I've heard that even the top-dog U.S. senators are actually responsive to little things like phone calls, emails and the like. So it IS worth your time.

P.S. Rep Steve Kagen can be emailed from this link (http://kagen.house.gov/contact.shtml).
Actually, email is not the best way to get the written word into the office of a Congresscritter, as yours will likely be lost in the flotsam of all of the rest. Send USPS SNAILMAIL LETTERS to their district headquarters offices. Those take actual effort of someone to open and read, especially if they don't have the look of something that was mass-printed and mass sent.

Also, follow up in a week or so with a personal visit to their offices.

Good luck!

Mike

Night Rider

September 1st, 2008, 04:22 AM

Apparently Menominee has the bike thing figured out. Here is a article from the Menominee Michigan paper.

Visitors taking advantage of yellow bikes

By MIKE DESOTELL
EagleHerald staff writer

MENOMINEE - The Labor Day weekend is upon us and while it's the last unofficial blast of summer, there's still plenty of time to enjoy the great outdoors in a T-shirt.

One of the emerging icons of summertime fun in Menominee is the yellow bike. Visitors have really climbed on board the free ride program.

"We think it's been real successful," said Sandy Baron, one of the founders. "We're getting very good comments. We get comments from pilots who fly in and use them regularly," she said.

You don't have to tell Ron Fearheiley that. The Harrisburg, Ill., pilot has flown into Menominee three times within the past three weeks and each time he seeks out a yellow bike.

"They worked out very well," he said. "It's a nice ride downtown to eat, do your business and come back."

Fearheiley said he does quite a bit of traveling and has never come across anything like Menominee's yellow bike program. "Keep it up, you're doing a good job with it," he said.

There are currently 34 yellow bikes spread around at 10 different locations in town. "There may be a couple that are misplaced but the majority are just fine," said Baron.

The program is funded through community donations and grants. Each spring, Bill St. Martin from the Cycle Path bicycle shop and a group of volunteers make sure each bike is in top condition. If funding allows, new bikes will be added.

Most of the bikes can be found in the downtown area, but the busiest locations are the Michigan Tourist Center near the Interstate Bridge and Twin County Airport. There are usually about a half-dozen bikes ready to go at the airport.

"I think when the T-34 people were here that week they were pretty much all gone," said airport manager Tony Krysiak. "It's a very nice program to let people get around the area to see things they normally wouldn't get to see."

One of the biggest changes to the program has been the addition of bike locks. When you check out a bike, you present your driver's license and are then given a lock. It's designed to cut down on theft and vandalism.

Once a bike has reached the end of its life span it doesn't get discarded. Right now, there are five such bikes positioned around town serving as 3-D reminders about the program. You'll see the decorative bikes at the Welcome Center, Menominee City Hall, the intersection of M-35 and U.S. 41, the courthouse and the boaters' lounge on 1st Street.

The yellow bikes are expected to remain in circulation until the end of September or a little longer, depending on the weather.

Jschmuck

September 1st, 2008, 04:32 AM

We care about DT because it brings people together for festivals, markets, concerts, shopping, eating, drinking...At least that what it used to do. DT made mistakes in the past - the recent past, but as we look 50 to 100 years ago DT was done right.

We care about DT because it keeps us close; socially speaking that is healthier, financially speaking that is logically cheaper, and "greenly" (probably not a word but..) speaking it is more environmentally friendly.

jerkylips999

September 1st, 2008, 07:11 AM

Night Rider

September 2nd, 2008, 12:03 PM

For those that don't make it downtown often Shopko Express exterior is pretty much done. They finished installing the glass windows & were power washing the building down yesterday.
The Larsen project phase 1 is coming along. They have quite a bit of the curbing in and have started laying some of the blacktop. Once it's landscaped & the building gets cleaned up, they will have something to be proud of.
The Washington/Walnut parking ramp project hasn't got above ground. They are finishing up on the footings & getting ready to lay some concrete blocks. There is a sign on the front of the ramp facing E. Walnut looking for tenants. On the sign is a low quality image on what the project might look like.
Quincy's restaurant has finally put some signage up. The budget for it must have been low, because you really have to look for it to know it's there. I hope they step up the promotion for the place, otherwise it won't be there another year.
The Flats on the Fox project is coming around. There are a few apartments that have small decks and they are all now in place. The sidewalk area directly in front of the complex is open for foot traffic. Except for a few things the exterior appears to be pretty close to being finished.
The Republic Steakhouse exterior including sign looks pretty close to being done. You can see on the inside that there still is some work to be done.
Tried to cover the projects underway....I probably left one or two out.

Nativist

September 2nd, 2008, 09:34 PM

I bet Guy Zima shot down painting the bikes yellow... Say, where is the Republic Steakhouse? Somehow I missed this development despite being a little obsessed (like most of us) with downtown projects.

hckystr42

September 2nd, 2008, 09:35 PM

Nativist- The Republic Steakhouse is in the old Riser's Diamond Vault on North Adams just past the Associated Bank.

Night Rider

September 2nd, 2008, 09:41 PM

Nativist

September 2nd, 2008, 10:27 PM

Adams Street! Awesome, I'd love to see that block fill up. I looked it up on Google maps street view (so happy they finally put us on their map!) but it seems the Sun was trying to foil my attempt to see the address clearly. Now lets get some more retail in there, too many vacancies. I want: bookstores, convenience stores, shoe repair, dry cleaners, etc.

Morse

September 2nd, 2008, 10:46 PM

jerkylips999

September 2nd, 2008, 11:55 PM

Night Rider

September 3rd, 2008, 12:18 AM

Night Rider-

I know that you wrote that the render of the parking ramp retail was low quality but could you at least get the jist of the project? Did it look nice, have brickwork, lighting, etc?

When you say that the Flats on the Fox is coming around did you mean that it is near complete or that it is looking better with the balconies, etc?

Could you take some pics?

Thanks

I'll try to take some photo's, including photos of the future drawing of the retail space in the ramp. Maybe low quality wasn't the best way to describe the drawing. Hopefully the photo's can speak for themselves.
As far as the flats, the balconies are pretty small, but in my opinion do add a nice touch. The lower level rooms are stocked full of appliances waiting to be installed in the apartments.

GBSurveyor

September 3rd, 2008, 07:20 AM

Another case for condo living..

I thought I'd share some of my recent experiences with y'all...

My wife & I have a small house on the west side, & are planning to put it up for sale in the spring. Over the past year or two, we've been going through room by room to get it "ready to sell". In the process, we needed to do something with the exterior. Re-siding it was way too expensive, considering we wouldn't be there much longer to enjoy it, even though it's a better product--so...we're having the old siding painted.

Unfortunately for us, our AC just went out & needs to be replaced. In calling for estimates, the first words out of my mouth each time were "how cheap can I get it done?"

My point? People don't buy a house & live there for 30 years anymore. Every repair or improvement is probably tempered with "are we going to get our money out of this?". I can see this causing a trickle-down effect over the years, with the quality of homes going down over time because repairs & updates are done with cheaper materials, using the contractor that gave the lowest bid, etc. If I'm going to live in a house for 5 years, I don't care if my roof lasts 30 years, I just want it to last more than 5 so someone else has to deal with it.

The owners/investors in a condo building probably ARE going to own it long-term, & want to protect their investment. It seems that in theory, over time, these types of structures would hold up better because of more rigorous maintenance, better materials, etc..

I've never lived in a condo building, but I think it would be comforting to me to know that the work that was done was done properly, & not done by the homeowner that thought, "well, if it burns down it probably won't burn down for a few years, & by then I'll be out of here.."

I understand the point you are making, however I am not really sure how much developers care about long term, once all of their interest is divested they are no longer part of the project. When you buy a condo you are buying a share of the building, and depending on how the condo declaration is worded and the maintenance is collected, you will be responsible for your share of the costs to repair and maintain, and most likely wont have the final say on what it will cost. I do think that in most cases developers would like to see the best work performed so not to get the label as a poor builder/developer attached to their name. Also many larger buildings use union labor (not that non-union does shoddy work) that follows a strict set of practices and generally a larger contractor who also has a vested interest in performing top notch work... umm... I guess that my point was that when you buy a condo you are buying a portion of the building envelope as well as your interior space that you reside in. Just wanted to enlighten a bit- maybe

Night Rider

September 4th, 2008, 01:26 AM

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh103/masagb/DSC05938.jpg

Cherry & Washington street sign for the parking retail space.

Morse

September 4th, 2008, 04:36 AM

Thanks for the pic, Night Rider! Not to sound too ungreatful :), but did you happen to snap any of Flats on the Fox or Shopko Express, road construction on Larsen Green?

Thanks again!

Night Rider

September 4th, 2008, 12:39 PM

Thanks for the pic, Night Rider! Not to sound too ungreatful :), but did you happen to snap any of Flats on the Fox or Shopko Express, road construction on Larsen Green?

Thanks again!

I actually had taken the photo I posted a while back, I just never posted it until now. I'll try to snap some additional photos tomorrow evening & post them.

hckystr42

September 4th, 2008, 05:39 PM

Not really important about downtown development, but emporis.com finally has pictures of all the buildings in Green Bay and they expanded the list to include all taller buildings. Not just the ones downtown i.e. Mason Manor.

Green Bay 4 Life

September 4th, 2008, 08:27 PM

sr22ger

September 4th, 2008, 09:40 PM

Would have been better if announced for DT Green Bay. Oh well, maybe we'll get a one story proposal for site 1 soon.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080904/GPG03/809040553

http://cmsimg.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?

That sign has been up for a couple weeks now. I was going to take a picture of the sign a while ago and post it, but I figured this was doomed before it began.

Considering the other relatively new office space on the other side of the river in De Pere hasn't been completely leased yet, this is an overly aggressive project for the corner with no street parking or no easy access from the main road it is on. Maybe the dentist should be considering building a smaller yet urban row style building for his practice, and sell the rest of the site off until the commercial office space market comes around.

MattGiguere

September 5th, 2008, 01:37 AM

I've been following the news of Downtown Green Bay from my new location in Menomonie, WI where I now attend UW-Stout. I was curious if any of you have a URL to the new Green Bay Branding site they promised in the following article, or has it not been launched yet. And what are your thoughts on "Better By The Bay"

Update, with video: Green Bay's new brand? 'Better By The Bay'

By Richard Ryman • rryman@greenbaypressgazette.com • September 4, 2008

“Better By the Bay” will be seen and heard a lot if the Green Bay Branding Initiative has its way.
Advertisement

A new logo and tagline for promotion of the Green Bay area was revealed this afternoon at the Lambeau Field Atrium.

The logo consists of bright blue and green circles along with the tagline “Greater Green Bay, Better By the Bay.”

Jim Rivett, president of Arketype, the advertising and marketing agency which developed the logo, said it evokes forward movement and is positive in tone and spirit. “Overall, it’s a very fresh and inviting look,” he said.

The branding campaign will include television and print advertisements. The Green Bay Packers have donated television time for the TV spot to be played in Minneapolis, Detroit and Chicago when the team has games in those cities.

The purpose of the brand is to expand outside perception of the Green Bay area, said Mike Hildebrand, initiative co-chairman. He said a survey conducted by the initiative confirmed a perception that Green Bay was the Packers and 10 months of winter, and, incredibly, “there was a lack of recognition that Green Bay was actually on the water.”

Elements available for economic development include the logo and tagline, original music, an interactive Web site, print and television advertising, online marketing, consumer and trade advertising, billboards, online videos, grass roots marketing, recruitment materials and a photo and video library.

The initiative consists of more than 40 businesses, organization and municipalities.
Hildebrand said that to carry the campaign forward, more money will be needed.

“Placement will depend on the amount of funding we have in place,” he said. “We have had great success in getting this funded up until this point.”

He said the campaign also is designed to improve the self-image of area residents.
“I think it elevates that community pride,” he said. “The people who live here are our greatest ambassadors. They are the ones out there advocating how great a place Green Bay is. We can get people here, but it’s the people who live here that close the deal.”
Today's earlier story

Green Bay is more than just the Packers, and to that end, the Greater Green Bay Brand will be unveiled at 4:30 p.m. today in the fourth-floor Legends Club in the Lambeau Field Atrium.

A consortium of area businesses formed last year to pursue the branding initiative.
Mike Hildebrand, co-chairman of the group, said the purpose is to help attract and retain top talent, attract and retain businesses, increase tourism and create a sense of community pride throughout the county.

“People who don’t live here only know about the Packers and what they perceive to be cold weather 10 months of the year,” Hildebrand said. “What we’re doing is broadening that image.”

Nativist

September 5th, 2008, 08:19 AM

Matt, it's at brandgreatergb.com (html://www.brandgreatergb.com). They still haven't updated it to reflect the new logo, which kind of seems like poor project management to me. I like the tag line, "Better by the Bay," it has a good ring to it. I'm not too sold on the logo with its dots, it's quite underwhelming. It feels like something that was overly fussed over in a series of committee meetings.

hckystr42

September 5th, 2008, 05:22 PM

http://www.betterbythebay.com/

This is the link I came across yesterday for the branding of Green Bay.

Nativist

September 5th, 2008, 08:10 PM

There it is, I'm glad to see it! Why on earth wouldn't they put a link to that at the other site?

Puant

September 6th, 2008, 05:36 AM

I feel for the people who put this branding initiative together. They obviously worked hard on this and tried to do something unique and great for the city. I commend them for that.

However I wish the city's amenities simply spoke for themselves. In some ways they do--the family-friendliness, the Packers, the waterfront, things like Bay Beach, the neighborhoods, most of the peole---that stuff is all good.

In my opinion, what this city mostliy lacks is certain 'civic pride' type amenities like a vibrant downtown--places designed for people...What we have too much of is places that are predominantly built for cars (parking, multi-lane roadways, freeways, etc).

I know you know what I mean--You look at the betterbythebay web site, they try to promote things like arts & culture, local pride, housing, employment, recreation, etc---our downtown could provide these amenities all together in one place rather than being spread out all over. However we just don't have a decent enough concentration of these things for most people to realize that they all really do exist here in Green Bay.

Chicagoenvy

September 7th, 2008, 06:34 AM

It's frustrating as heck that you can not function in GB w/o a car or at least a friend or family member who can take you to places at a moments notice.

Sure,you can live DT and work DT...but if you need TP,soda,body wash and a dvd at 9:30 at night on a SAT you have to drive or spend $30 on a cab. Or walk to Ghetto Dollar on Walnut.

I also hate how anti-pedestrian Ashwaubenon is.

I work on Broadway. Ok,with all of the buisnesses around that area there is no bus close by...you have to walk to Best Buy to catch the bus....it's all multilane road,industry,semi's breathing down your neck,no sidewalks,highways and the crosslights are for cars.....I'm young and in ok shape and I take 3 steps off the curb and the lights change...how is a walker supposed to get across 4 lanes of traffic in 5 seconds? How is an elderly person suppsed to get around these streets safely?

Ashwabenon is hills,it's rare to see a sidewalk....and they completely ignore shoveling underneath 172/Onedia in winter so you are walking on an icy bank of black snow with cars zipping by.

I completely loath Ashwabenon and it's treatment of walkers and the metro only serves Onedia and the casino....what about the industrial sections where it's dangerous to walk,etc?

Ashwabenon has the attitude that everyone living and working and shopping there has thier white pickett fence house and Nissan Altima and to heck with the peds/bus riders.

I've lived here for 32 years and maybe I've just been here too long but as each day passes I just grown to hate this area more and more and I grow more cynical. Hard to see the good when it's covered in so much sh-t.

I may have said this before but it's so true,Green Bay metro is like a Sim City game where you have one map divided into 4 sections and each section is run by a different player and there is no planning,communication or foresight as to how the 4 sections will co-exist or be built up..each guy does his own thing and it looks like a big mishmash of stuff just put wherever. No synergy or sync or ryhme or reason to how the city is laid out.

I have a few questions too...

Why wasn't Nicolet put on site 4? Wouldn't that glass corner look good right at wash and walnut? and then why not put the 'signature' tower next to it with it's grand entrance greeting people at wash and cherry?

When site 4 gets built nicolet is gonna look stupid in that spot.

And...why not take out that parking lot by APAC and make it into a civic square?

Stone benches,maybe a nice fountain..some art....enough open space for art street,etc...maybe have hotdog carts around...create a space where you can have some energy all the time....

I really like the wed. night farmers market on BW.....need something like that on the east side....

OliverDP

September 7th, 2008, 05:57 PM

^^

I don't want to sound like I disagree with your thoughts (I don't), but the fact is that 99% of the residents in the area live in the suburbs and prefer to use their cars. This is why we see the most amount of money go towards highway, roads and not as much to pedestrian friendly projects. Its just a matter of economics. Those of us on this board represent the minority of the residents in the GB area. Think of the uprising there would be if we took $10M for pedestrian friendly projects downtown that only a handful of people use when the state/city could take that same $10M and put it towards a roadway that tens of thousands use every day.

As for Ashwaubenon and the Bay Park area, I think you are going to be hard pressed to see any change here (unless the Boulevard plan goes through). This whole area was developed specifically for cars and it suits it very well.

This leads me to the title of my post. What action have we taken as residents to persuade our local officials to pursue and improve these non-pedestrian friendly areas? It is going to take quite a grass-roots movement to show that there is interest in improving the life of the pedestrian.

Night Rider

September 7th, 2008, 06:32 PM

And...why not take out that parking lot by APAC and make it into a civic square?

Stone benches,maybe a nice fountain..some art....enough open space for art street,etc...maybe have hotdog carts around...create a space where you can have some energy all the time....

I'm not quite as passionate about the pedestrian friendly areas as you, but I like this idea. I do think you need to leave a few 15 minute parking spots for bank customers who want to run inside to do business.

I really like the wed. night farmers market on BW.....need something like that on the east side....

I mentioned the same thing on the downtown survey.

Night Rider

September 7th, 2008, 06:55 PM

I also hate how anti-pedestrian Ashwaubenon is.

Just reading paper & see this article---
Ashwaubenon studies needs of bikers, walkers

ASHWAUBENON — Village leaders are moving ahead on a plan to accommodate increasing numbers of bikers and walkers on village streets, sidewalks and trails.
The Ashwaubenon Bike and Pedestrian Committee spent about a year crafting a 100-plus-page plan that looks at the village's current setup for those on foot or cycle, and makes immediate, mid-term and long-term recommendations on how to make the village more accessible and safer.
The recommendations include new sidewalks and bike lanes, alternate street parking, paved shoulders, crosswalks and improved intersection markings.
"A lot of it is, it's just hard to get places, you can't bike or walk to them," said committee member Peter Flucke, an avid cyclist and consultant for the plan. "We're urbanized, and, like other areas, we developed for people who want to get places in cars."
But demographic studies show that a third of the village's population can't drive: They're too young, too old or disabled, he said. And with gasoline prices just below $4 a gallon, many others would prefer to travel on their own power.
"I think this is the perfect storm," Flucke said. "We're doing the plan just as people are taking a real interest in alternate ways of getting around."
Now that the committee has finished its recommendations, other village committees will take a look. A public information session is set for Sept. 29, and the full Village Board is expected to vote on the plan before the end of the year.
The document is available online, as well as at Village Hall.
Park Director Rex Mehlberg hopes citizens get involved.
"For the plan to be successful, we need as much feedback from residents and businesses as possible," he said. "Some of these items may be controversial or will affect certain property owners."
The intent is to use the plan as a guideline for growth, Mehlberg said. But nothing is absolute, he said.
Even minor changes make a difference.
"The next time a road is re-striped, for example, we can look at the plan to see how to make it better for bikes or pedestrians," he said.
Other ideas might take longer to realize.
"Concrete roads have a life span of 20 years," Mehlberg said. "So long term there would be 20 years away. The main thing is, 'As we have the opportunity to do it, here's our options.'"
The committee spent a lot of time considering hazards and barriers within the village for people on foot or bike, he said.
"They looked at things like, 'Why is it so difficult to get from the mall to the (National) Railroad Museum?'" Mehlberg said. "Or places where a sidewalk goes and all of the sudden ends and people are in the road, and then it starts again."
In addition, they considered the number of bike racks and their locations.
"If I bike to the post office," Flucke observed, "there's no rack for my bike."

Danillo

September 8th, 2008, 03:00 AM

Why wasn't Nicolet put on site 4? Wouldn't that glass corner look good right at wash and walnut? and then why not put the 'signature' tower next to it with it's grand entrance greeting people at wash and cherry?

When site 4 gets built nicolet is gonna look stupid in that spot.

Well, actually, Nicolet is on Site 4, just half of it, but I get what you mean. It's on the northern half because (I think rightly) the Walnut corner is the more prominent corner and should be home to a bigger building. I'm glad that, if we're to have one half of the site left undeveloped, that it is the more attractive half to developers (presumably) for a large scale building.

Now, as to why the tower isn't on the Cherry St. corner, I have no idea. That would seem to have made more sense. I would guess that they didn't want the entrance to their underground parking or their plaza that's above that along Cherry, and so they wanted the main entrance by that, so that's how it's ended up how it has. With the plaza area on the southern side of the building though it will keep some space between it and what might get built next door, so I don't think it will look too bad. I wish the tower was on Cherry, but overall I'm just not going to get into complaining about that building too much, that's the least of what ails downtown.

And...why not take out that parking lot by APAC and make it into a civic square?

Stone benches,maybe a nice fountain..some art....enough open space for art street,etc...maybe have hotdog carts around...create a space where you can have some energy all the time....

Turning that lot into a "town square" is an idea that's been around for some time, and was formalized in the Gould-Evans plan from the mid 90's. It's an idea that isn't dead by any means. It's not the sort of thing where anyone can just snap their fingers and make it happen, but I do believe it has the support of city planning.

Meyer

I was at the Daughtry concert at the Meyer Theatre last week. What an AWESOME venue for a concert. IMO that's the best place to see a show in the area, and what they've done with that place is such a huge asset to the downtown, so much better than the tri-plex! It's easy to forget, but things are getting better all the time.

mgk920

September 8th, 2008, 04:11 AM

You have to remember that before it became a village in 1977, Ashwaubenon was just another Wisconsin township where its development and other policies were driven by its desire for self-preservation - preventing annexations of its territory by keeping its tax rate lower than that of adjacent De Pere and Green Bay. If that meant cutting corners on public works standards ("why do we need those expensive and useless sidewalks, anyway?"), so be it.

:ohno:

Mike

Morse

September 9th, 2008, 03:38 AM

Anyone going to this tomorrow? Redevelopment Authority Meeting, 1:30pm.

http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/mins_agd/

Puant

September 9th, 2008, 04:20 AM

Nope, but I'd say AP is dead.

Jschmuck

September 9th, 2008, 05:30 AM

YEA PACKERS WIN!!! I propose 3, 15 story buildings DT GB...(looks at bank account). wait, nevermind... but PACKERS WIN!!

Morse

September 9th, 2008, 05:41 AM

Nope, but I'd say AP is dead.

Puant-Is that speculation or do you know anything:) Seriously, I wish Vetter would just finish the River Center and Site 1 would be opened up to Robert Sinclaire. My question is this-If Vetter does not get the financing for Astor or that site is opened up, will River Center even be finished by him or by the current plans it calls for? I don't think that the Flats on the Fox will be a bad looking building, granted it is done in conjunction with the Warehouse portion of River Center. It just wouldn't be my choice as a 'stand alone' development.

Puant

September 9th, 2008, 05:49 AM

^^I don't actually know anything, other than that "death throes" always look more-or-less the same.:goodnight

Danillo

September 10th, 2008, 03:15 AM

Article about the new steakhouse downtown (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080909/GPG03/80909154/1978). Here's what I like to hear:

“Everybody loves a downtown. I don’t care what anyone says,” Neph said. “I wanted to come downtown because I felt it was going in the right direction. You need more people like us willing to spend less than $40 million. We can effect change faster.”

Yet another person who sees that things are headed in the "right direction" downtown, and put his money where his mouth is to back that up.

I can't wait to try the Republic out some day!

Danillo

September 10th, 2008, 03:19 AM

From WBAY:

Local Investor Wants to Boost River Center Project (http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=8980807)

And from the PG:

RDA to keep a close eye on riverfront projects (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080909/GPG03/80909148)

Doesn't sound like much new.

Puant

September 10th, 2008, 04:18 AM

More quotes:

"Renovation of the building included putting recessed windows in front and adding planters. Neph kept the stained-glass above the windows and other details of the building’s facade."

I love that they kept the stained glass windows!! The planters? I loved the old storefront windows, but I don't know how they could have kept those for this new use. When the front of the building was behind the "shrout" I had been secretly hoping they were going to somehow keep the storefront windows, kind of like how Big Tomatoes did. Well I guess it wasn't in the cards.

“We wanted to keep the really cool downtown architecture,” he said.

Right on! I don't want to take anything away from their investment & dedication.

The building’s interior was re-bricked throughout to match the predominate earth-tones and dark woods. Neph said small touches were added, such as shadow boxes in the women’s bathroom stalls to hold clutch purses.

He said his model for the look and feel he wanted was the original Oxford’s, 217 N. Washington St. He said it provided a nice look, a good atmosphere and a diverse mix of clients

I always LOVED the original Oxfords, probably my favorite restaurant downtown when it came to ambience and all that jazz. (the food was good too!).

Overall I am glad for the Republic, should be a good addition to my favorite and still underredeveloped street!!:rock:

Bartles53

September 10th, 2008, 07:35 AM

But the other set of projects, called the River Center is behind schedule.

It incorporates a building on the old Younkers site, and where developers want to build the new children's museum and movie theater.

Movie theater? Is that a mistake by WBAY or did I somehow miss that the River Center project is to include a movie theater?

Here is a very un-detailed, perhaps useless drawing I came across of the Cherry Street retail. Enjoy!

http://www.loopnet.com/Attachments/7/7/7/xy_7778EA64-86A0-468C-9003-462F4E0312E9__.jpg

And I'm with you, Dan. Downtown Green Bay is on a steady (if a little slow) upward trajectory. My understanding is that the boardwalk construction is to start this month. It's all important and it all builds momentum.

titletown

September 10th, 2008, 07:55 AM

Movie theater? Is that a mistake by WBAY or did I somehow miss that the River Center project is to include a movie theater?

Yes, when it was originally proposed several years a go by Vetter... back in the 90's *sarcism* it was suppose to include the Children's Museum, Hotel, Splash Park, and Movie Theater...

I am so damn sick of waiting for this dead end proposal called Astor Place and River Center I think I am about to puke now...seriously.

sr22ger

September 10th, 2008, 08:57 AM

Night Rider

September 10th, 2008, 12:07 PM

Since they are now going month to month, you might as well say nothing will happen for another 6 months if at all. Once winter hits, they will say they have to wait until spring to start & so on. With a unlimited deadline for the developer, there is no incentive to get it down sooner then later. There is lot more benefit to keep delaying it. I'll be surprised if the city deck starts this month as promised.

hckystr42

September 10th, 2008, 05:23 PM

Titletown- I could not agree more with you about the lack of progress and constant extensions for RC and AP making me sick. Vetter said that his private investor was mainly interested in the RC portion of the project and then said that RC would begin construction this year. Let Vetter worry about RC and allow Robert Sinclaire to put there project on Site 1. It would still be a significant structure that sounds quite impressive. Its not like we would be trading AP for some 2 story office building. I just feel that if we let Sinclaire do his project that over the winter, when Vetter isn't breaking ground, that Sinclaire could have his project marketed and then break ground in the spring. Instead March and April will roll around and Vetter will say how he is so close and if he just had another 3 years he could get it built. Enough excuses already. Let's have some real development. Also, I would like to know what Vetter and the RDA define progress as. Did Vetter have $1 in private investment at the last RDA meeting and now he has $2?

Night Rider- If I had to bet on it I would agree with you that the City Deck would probably not start this month, but I have heard from a lot of different people that they finally have all there ducks in a row and that the City Deck should finally get underway as "scheduled"

Night Rider

September 10th, 2008, 05:33 PM

These were taken Tuesday morning.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh103/masagb/DSC05946.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh103/masagb/DSC05950.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh103/masagb/DSC05953.jpg

Nativist

September 10th, 2008, 06:13 PM

jerkylips999

September 10th, 2008, 06:47 PM

You know, I was trying to withhold judgement, but I don't think I can any longer: the Flats building is really, really mediocre. I think I understand what they were going for: the colors reflect some of the surrounding architecture, the metal panelling reflects the industrial past (and present) of the Fox, etc. These may have sounded like good ideas, but the reality is that building mostly resembles a soviet-era housing project in Gdansk. Maybe the apartments are great on the inside, but the exterior? Wow. I'm increasingly disappointed.

I'm also disappointed by the stalled progress on the RC/AP front. Month to month? I think they really need to have a hard and fast deadline at this point.

I posted quite a while ago that this building suffered from the "well, she has a good PERSONALITY" syndrome & was told, "it was designed to blend in with the development. Once RC is done, it will look good". Now it sounds like the original plan for RC may change, which will leave us with an ugly building that doesn't blend in. Oh well, at least it's not as ugly as the yellow-brick building across the road..

sr22ger

September 11th, 2008, 12:23 AM

I posted quite a while ago that this building suffered from the "well, she has a good PERSONALITY" syndrome & was told, "it was designed to blend in with the development. Once RC is done, it will look good". Now it sounds like the original plan for RC may change, which will leave us with an ugly building that doesn't blend in. Oh well, at least it's not as ugly as the yellow-brick building across the road..

On the bright side, I'd say the Shopko building is somewhat attractive for that corner. :)

hckystr42

September 11th, 2008, 02:46 AM

Night Rider

September 11th, 2008, 04:52 AM

With regards to the Flats on the Fox building. On the last picture posted the entire first floor is just cinder blocks and quite unattractive, even compared to the rest of the building. Is something going to tie in there for the first floor or are we going to have that as the exterior of the building.

I'm pretty sure the parking ramp & possibly the future "The Bar" might be up against that. None of that cinder block should be exposed.

gbmphillips

September 11th, 2008, 06:23 AM

It's nice to see the city sticking to what has worked so well, Vetter, it's nice to know that leadership in this town is loyal to change....you know tear down a memorial so we can have a nice brown area, gut a old store/warehouse so we can have more empty shells of buildings downtown. Hopefully they can get APAC to move so we can once again have a real empty mall downtown instead of one that is only 3/4 empty. People you are all going to be retired to Hawaii by the time this downtown ever comes back to life.

Bartles53

September 11th, 2008, 07:14 AM

Not to pile on but that Flats building is pretty weak. I don't even understand the reasoning behind trying to make it blend with the Younkers building. Why is that more appealing than having two buildings with distinct architectural styles neighboring each other?

And what's up with the lack of windows in the new buildings? I understand it gets cold there in the winter but hasn't window technology improved in the past few years? Has the price of glass rocketed past the price of brick? Windows can make or break a building and in both of these cases (except for the entry way of the Shopko building) the lack of glass makes the buildings look a little dull.

Obviously the Shopko building is a huge improvement and overall it's a solid building. Perhaps the Flats building will look better when the surrounding parcels get developed and it's not quite as in-your-face. But it would have been nice to see them throw some imagination into the architecture. I guess that's what site 1 is for.

titletown

September 12th, 2008, 03:05 AM

I would be interested to see what the rooftop terrace is like on Flats on the Fox. I sure wish we had a rooftop restaurant in the area. Do you guys remember the terrace atop the old Gallagher Pizza building? I believe that was back in 2001 or 2002.

Fillmore

September 12th, 2008, 09:18 PM

You know, I was trying to withhold judgement, but I don't think I can any longer: the Flats building is really, really mediocre. I think I understand what they were going for: the colors reflect some of the surrounding architecture, the metal panelling reflects the industrial past (and present) of the Fox, etc. These may have sounded like good ideas, but the reality is that building mostly resembles a soviet-era housing project in Gdansk. Maybe the apartments are great on the inside, but the exterior? Wow. I'm increasingly disappointed.

I'm also disappointed by the stalled progress on the RC/AP front. Month to month? I think they really need to have a hard and fast deadline at this point.

Wow, that's one of the ugliest buildings I've ever seen! What the hell were they (not) thinking?

titletown

September 12th, 2008, 10:55 PM

Dear Mr. xxxxxx:

Thank you for contacting me about expanding passenger
rail in eastern Wisconsin. I appreciate hearing your input, and I
welcome this opportunity to respond.

We must recognize public transit for its tremendous
environmental benefits. Mass transit systems provide an
alternative to driving on the nation's congested roads and
highways, reducing oil consumption and vehicle emissions that
pollute the air we breathe. To maintain and improve Amtrak, we
must fully invest in our national rail system.

I proudly cosponsored S. 294, the Passenger Rail
Investment and Improvement Act of 2007, which was introduced
by Senator Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) on January 16, 2007. S. 294
would fund the nation's passenger rail system at $1.78 billion,
including fully funding Amtrak. S. 294 passed the Senate with my
support on October 30, 2007, and is now being considered by the
House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure.

Most recently, on July 10, 2008, the Senate Appropriations
Committee passed with my support S. 3261, the Transportation
and Housing and Urban Development appropriations bill for fiscal
year 2009. S. 3261 provides for $1.55 billion in funding for
Amtrak's operating and capital needs. This level represents a $225
million increase in funding over fiscal year 2008, and nearly
double the President's request for $800 million.

I am committed to working with my colleagues in Congress
to ensure that Amtrak receives adequate funding to operate safely
and efficiently. Please be assured that I will keep your thoughts in
mind. Again, thank you for contacting me.

Sincerely,

Herb Kohl
U.S. Senator

sr22ger

September 12th, 2008, 11:54 PM

Too bad he owns the Bucks huh? :lol::bash:

Morse

September 13th, 2008, 12:59 AM

Wow, that's one of the ugliest buildings I've ever seen! What the hell were they (not) thinking?

Wow, I thought that I would write a few thoughts in response to the overwhelming positivity for the Flats Building:lol:. A couple of posts back, Bartles mentioned that the building is kind of 'in your face,' currently. I think it is easy to get down when the first building to be built among the remaining parcels (Site 1, River Center/WHSE & Site 4) is probably the one that packs the least punch and people here are feeling undewhelmed because as it stands, this building is in a way, the focal point. To that end, I wish that Astor Place/Sinclaire proposal was constructed first, which would create a better buzz and remove the emphasis from the Flats on the Fox building. I am sure that there would still be some gripes, but this building would be a more 'fits' in than "I hope this isn't the best we can expect for the Riverfront" development. That is not to say that this couldn't have been done better, but I think the city realizes that they have one chance to do this right and VetterDenk will be forever tied to this development, so with that in mind, they are not going to construct a product that is ultimately and collectively an eyesore.

My thoughts are new developments/buildings are not constructed to be warehouse/industrial looking anymore and that is the hard thing to overcome with this. We are expecting something modern looking, shiny and glassy. If some of those same type of buildings in the Third Ward in Milwaukee were constructed new in 2008, they would be hearing the same thing. But instead they are considered cool old buildings that mix well with the more dramatic buildings in that area. I am hoping we will have this same effect once Site 1, Site 4, T Wall and any other new developments (more dramatic) come into play. Maybe I am naive (and I apologize to everyone if I coming across that way), but I am just trying to be positive and badly want downtown to succeed. According to Jeff Mirkes in the minutes of the RDA meeting, there has been a lot of interest in tours for the building thus far and people won't waste their time on something bad.

I didn't think that the building looked bad from the view across the river in this video.

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?s=8980807

The City Deck bid has been awarded and will start construction in two weeks, so that is a positive.

http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/mins_agd/

Again fellas, I am trying to be positive^^

Dan-I am curious as to what your thoughts are?

Go Green Bay

Bartles53

September 13th, 2008, 04:37 AM

I hadn't watched that video before. The building does look better from a distance--especially from across the river. I guess what's more important than the architecture is that soon there will be hundreds of more people living and spending their free time and spending their money downtown. Overall it's obviously a big positive for the city. But I still wish they could have spiced it up a bit.

Great news on the boardwalk. Very key.

jerkylips999

September 13th, 2008, 05:08 AM

The building does look better from a distance--especially from across the river.

back in high school, I remember describing girls that way. It was, "good from far.........far from good."

Night Rider

September 13th, 2008, 07:32 PM

I've heard from another person that the Bellin building tavern on the 1st floor or restaurant (maybe both) are not doing well enough and something is going to give. I really hope I am wrong! While I haven't spent any time in the bar area, I have eaten at Quincy's. It's almost like the chicken & the egg argument...we need businesses in there to attract investors for sites 1 & 4. But we need bodies in site 1 & 4 to sustain the viability of the businesses.
I would like to see some additional type of promotion put on encouraging people to make more stops at downtown restaurants/businesses. Maybe something like they are trying to do on Main Street. Why wait till the a main road is under complete disrepair to promote it? Main Street is really bad. If I wasn't forced to drive it, I would stay away myself.
On a side note, I see the development in the parking ramp lower level is finally raising above the ground. The masonry is all the way up the top on the back portion of the project.

gbmphillips

September 13th, 2008, 10:01 PM

Nativist

September 13th, 2008, 10:25 PM

While I won't adopt all of your (gbmphillips') positions, I think you're substantially correct about this. In hindsight, putting all of these projects under the direction of one man was a huge mistake, especially this man. I think many of us (and I include myself) really bought into the idea that in one fell swoop, the direction of downtown Green Bay could be fundamentally changed. I think the T. Wall project has the same fundamental problem. The fact is that while T. Wall sits on their options waiting to see what happens, development could already be underway. There's plenty of activity out there.

This experience has been an argument for slow, sustainable downtown development and a cautionary tale against depending on large, scale developments that may or may not happen and if they do take years. Vetter needs to be cut off, and when the T. Wall options are up they should not be renewed. What we need is the former mall razed, streets restored, and a set of good zoning laws and incentives. We need to stop putting our trust in the John Vetters of the world and take matters into our own hands. The projects may be smaller, but who cares. I'd rather have twenty complementary 3-5 story buildings that house retail businesses, offices, and apartment/condos than five 17 story towers.

gbmphillips

September 13th, 2008, 10:58 PM

What we need is the former mall razed, streets restored, and a set of good zoning laws and incentives. We need to stop putting our trust in the John Vetters of the world and take matters into our own hands. The projects may be smaller, but who cares. I'd rather have twenty complementary 3-5 story buildings that house retail businesses, offices, and apartment/condos than five 17 story towers.You are 100% on the mark! :applause:

sr22ger

September 14th, 2008, 02:07 AM

When they opened in the Bellin Building you just knew it would only be a matter of time that they would be in trouble. They are in a great building but you need PEOPLE to survive and downtown does not provide that. There is no reason for people to be down there. I feel bad for anyone who tries to put a restaurant into downtown Green Bay, failure is the first word that comes to mind. The mayor and the people involved in what is going on down there have failed BIG time and the short term and long term outlook for downtown Green Bay is bleak........anyone thinking of opening a restaurant, or any other business that does not cater to drinking, think again, until a new administration comes to town and is not just focused on one failed developer.

So how are Angelina's, Hinterland, Titletown, St Brendan's, Chefettas, etc all working out well down there then? We forgot to make reservations last night at St Brendan's and was told that there was more than an hour wait. It was extremely busy downtown last night, and I don't mean for the club scene, this was 6:30pm. Even the first floor bar in the Bellin had people in it. That place does need some advertising, from a glance walking down Washington, I didn't even see a name in the windows or anywhere for that fact.

Dude, I understand you personally have no reason to go downtown, but don't generalize for the rest of the population.

Sometimes your opinion is needed to keep our board in check. Other times like this one, it's just a stupid "oh downtown is terrible, I hate the mayor" rant.

Puant

September 15th, 2008, 12:25 AM

To generate exhuberant diversity in a city's streets and districts, four conditions are indispensable:

1) The district, and indeed as many of its internal parts as possible, must serve more than one primary function; preferably more than two. These must insure the presense of people who go outdoors on different schedules and are in the place for different purposes, but who are able to use many facilities in common.

2) Most blocks must be short; that is, streets and opportunities to turn corners must be frequent.

3) The district must mingle buildings that vary in age and condition, including a good proportion of old ones so that they vary in the economic yield they must produce. This mingling must be fairly close-grained.

4) There must be a sufficently dense concentration of people, for whatever purposes they may be there. This includes dense concentrations in the case of people who are there because of residence

The necessity for these four conditions is the most important point this book has to make. In combination, these conditions create effective econmoic pools of use. Given these four conditions, not all city districes will produce a diversity equivalent to one another. The potentials of different districts differ for many reasons; but, given the development of these four conditions (or the best approximation to their full development that can be managed in real life), a city should be able to realize its best potential, whatever that may lie. Obstacles to doing so will have been removed.

~Jane Jacobs "The Death & LIfe of Great American Cities" 1960 pg 196-197

The book goes on in very convincing manner and with plenty of acute observations of why and how these four key points are valid.**

So, using this, let me examine how Green Bay's east side downtown stacks up against these points below. Feel free to chime in with your thoughts as well:

1) GB east side is primarily banks, government offices, bars, and dead zones such as vacant buildings and parking lots. There are a few other secondary uses such as restaurants, insurance, misc offices, cultural amenities. The primary uses do seem to play off of one another fairly well, except that some subareas like the tighter clusters of gov't offices & banks become lifeless after 5 PM and on weekends. There could be a 'closer grain' between the cultural amenities, restaurants, offices and so on and there definitely needs to be more residential buildings. But overall I don't think that GB is too far off from doing pretty well on this first ingredient. I'll give this a B- grade.

2) The mall is a killer here. It interrupts the street grid in such a dire way, particularly cutting off the convention center and Main St from the rest of the downtown. This damn thing should be priority #1, at LEAST in terms of opening up the street grid again. Otherwise, the blocks are OK. They made some mistakes by re-routing Main St around the mall and turning it into Bader St and building over the old Main St (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=44.514596~-88.006714&style=h&lvl=18&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15772842&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1) (like where The Attic now stands). This was a horrible mistake, also can be blamed on the mall fiasco. The east side of GB's downtown is sorely missing out on this ingredent, but it can be fixed relatively easily by cutting Adams St and other streets back through the old mall. I grade this an F just because I'm so pissed about the mall blockade, even though other parts have a decent street grid.

3) East GB has a whole bunch of buildings about 20-30 years old, very few new ones, and not enough old ones. There aren't many areas where there is a "fine grain" of all ages. GB is also hurting here, again, thanks to the mall and the reckless abandon of tearing stuff down to insert dead zone parking lots. And most of those 20-30 yr old buildings I mentioned are absolute crap--1 story, hideous and dysfunctional for a downtown. I grade this a D-. No on second thought, probably also an F.

4) I have to subdivide this to 4A: Obviously not nearly enough residents, an F or D- in that standpoint. Everyone's gotta drive down here, thus the need for so many damn parking facilities and hesitance to even bother to come down here. As point 4B: there are quite a few employees who work down here still, and who come down to hit the bars, the library, shows, etc at many differnet times of the day...except there is still the "dead times" between 5 - 8 PM every day and most of the day on Saturdays during the day and sundays, with a few exceptional spots where it's not lifeless. On the second point (4B), I'd grade a C; so overall I'd average 4a and 4b to make point 4 overall score to be about a C- or D+.

I know most of you seem to have the natural instincts on these matters, but I'm curious--How many of you have read this Jane Jacobs book? I know it reinforced some of my own instincts. What do you think about the 4 key points above? Where does the east side pass & fail?

by the way, I think the Broadway district gets higher grades in many of these key points. Anyone want to lay out the grades for the Broadway district?

**please note, the book & common sense tells us that because every city & every district is invidually unique, there is no single simple 'formula' to make it work; yet, at the same time these 4 key ingredients very often hold true for successful city districts. Again, read all 500 pages of this Jacobs book if you want more...it can't all be simplified that well here, but I thought I'd share this anyway...

Morse

September 15th, 2008, 05:07 AM

Broadway is a B with extra credit coming in the form of the new street in front of Titletown Brewery which will integrate this area even more into downtown and open up more development on the way/Larsen Green. I am really liking how that District is progressing and believe it is combining all of these elements in Jane Jacobs book.

1.) Steve-Do you have any news on your Daily Planet proposal that you can share?

2.) Any news on T Wall?

3.) Dan-Are you around? Would really like to hear your thoughts and miss you responses!

Fellas-Anyone have some positive responses, seriously?

Night Rider

September 15th, 2008, 04:52 PM

Fellas-Anyone have some positive responses, seriously?

Maybe something positive in a few months or next summer :) . As the summer is coming to an end, it seems a big disappointment for development. Winter time / snow piles, frozen Fox River... not the best time to be encouraging development. Over the summer there has been really no noticeable progress. I guess you could say the Republic Steak House will be opening, but then again we lost the Stein and the food court by Bay Lake Bank. The Flats on the Fox subsidized housing project is positive, but was a project started last year. The city deck may start, even though later then initially promised. That & the future empty retail below the parking ramp are the "big" projects to be excited about? Are there any other summer projects/developments that I missed?

Nativist

September 15th, 2008, 07:35 PM

1.) The Broadway District is slowly turning into the lunch district. If there's a better area for people to seek lunch, I'm not sure where it would be. I'd like to see more retail. There are some offices, and with the Larsen Green there should be some growth in that area. There's nearby residential, though its character doesn't really match the retail very well. Overall, it's okay, and it looks like it's getting better. C

2.) Right now, most of the business is concentrated between Shawano and Dousman. The area could be strengthened N. and S. of this stretch. There are some good businesses on Dousman. The weak points are: a.) Old Fort Square, b.) the lack of buildings on East side of Broadway st. on the 100 S. block. c.) Walnut St.

3.) Mingling of new and old: very strong. Some nice old buildings, and courtesy of Direct Development, some nice new ones too. Overall, it has the best urban character of any part of the city, in my opinion.

4.) The residential area around Broadway is pretty bleak. I lived there for a couple of years (on Walnut St.), and was witness to daily drug deals, a stabbing, a shooting, prostitution, and lots of general drunken violence. Too many absentee landlords, I think is the problem. I'm not sure how this can be turned around. Broadway can't really depend on the residential neighborhood, most people come from elsewhere. More people working in the area will be a benefit. The farmer's market is great during the Summer, new ways to sustain that energy year round need to be found.

Overall, I give it a C. But, I think it could easily be a B plus.

Positive developments? I think that Night Rider was pretty comprehensive. I think that the way that things are going that the East Side will be finance, festivals, and frivolity and Broadway will be more geared towards shopping, eating, and the 'creative class' (I hate that term, but it describes the mix of architects, photographers, video game designers, etc. that are already there).

Puant

September 16th, 2008, 03:40 AM

The Broadway area has some of the best urban character; yet, there is soemthing about the East side that I really really want to see take off. The East side seems ripe for a revival of those 3-5 storey, quality buildings we all want, along with perhaps a high rise or three.

As for retail--I didn't even consider that in my grades earlier. Obviously an F. This is a tough one. I can see why retail has a tough time.

As for downtown PRIME TIME--yeah, ithe summertime is the best. All the snow & ice in winter is miserable, it drives people to the malls because there just isn't enough density of much else downtown to make the sidewalk shopping worth it. However I do have some fond memories from just last winter, hitting the bars hard, watching very drunk women making snow angels, getting an awesome hot dog from a stand carved into a snowbank, etc. It's all part of the contrast we enjoy in these parts, it's just so very very different from the summertime.

I don't have many other positive developments....other than that the PACK is 2-0 and Rodgers makes us forget about Favre.....

Jschmuck

September 16th, 2008, 04:33 AM

I frequent the milwaukee blog a little to often...everytime i come here there really isnt anything new except what could be. Then over at milROCKee theres yet another 26 story condo highrise APPROVED... i dont know.

Its been said before that an educational institution downtown would help. we could use lets say a weselyan university or university of phoenix, or maybe get some sort of extension from UWGB.

GB needs to advertise itself MORE.

hckystr42

September 16th, 2008, 04:59 AM

Wasn't the summer of 2008 suppose to be the summer that changed the face of the downtown as we know it? Yet all we get is the beginning of boardwalk construction, an ugly assisted income housing building and a few retail spaces that aren't yet finished.

With the mall site I know we keep saying that the city should just demo it and restore the street grid and then parcel it off. How easy would that actually be to do? Could they just take a few million in TIF funding and get that done? I hate to say it, but I agree with the previous posts that we cant keep relying on one developer to take on such a large chunk of property. Case in point, Vetter and the Riverfront.

Puant- I too would really like to see the east side take off. I don't really know what it is either. Perhaps that there already is a few taller buildings and if there could just be some nice infill it would be a good downtown? The problem I have with the Broadway District is that it really is just one street. If you head a block west off of Broadway you are in a slightly more run down area that I don't consider to be as attractive as a block east of the downtown on the east side of the river. Granted the housing just outside of downtown on both sides of the river needs drastic improvement, I just don't see the housing on the east side needing as much help as that on the west side.

HermosaBeachBoy

September 16th, 2008, 05:55 PM

I appreciate and support the efforts of city officials, developers and TAXPAYERS who have been striving to redevelop the Green Bay downtown. Many attempts at improvement have resulted in multiple disappointments, however, there are some achievements. I have to add to other comments regarding the new FOX ON FLATS. I would have thought that having the opportunity to start from the GROUND UP there would have been a little more pleasing design available other than the BIG BOX look. It is my opinion that getting people LIVING downtown is out LAST CHANCE to have a lively downtown instead of a DEAD ZONE! We must continue to adapt to present issues until we find the combination that allows and inspires RESIDENT participation downtown. Sitting idle while downtown looks like a ruined ghost town is not an option. I am interested in buying one of the 27 condos (Green Bay Press Gazette) being proposed for the River Center project, however, unless prices are more closely aligned with the existing Riverside Place Condos (OR LESS) there won't be very many interested parties, including me. Riverfront Lofts and the proposed Astor Place prices are out of line with the Green Bay locale, waterfront or not. Don't forget the BUBBLE BURST!

Nativist

September 16th, 2008, 07:29 PM

I'm in total agreement with that. The people who you want downtown are young singles, young couples, etc. I guess I would have been a natural part of the demographic about four years ago (when we were moving out of the aforementioned rental on Walnut Street), we were able to afford to buy a home on the very Northern edge of Allouez for about $150k. Affordable rentals are fine, but what about affordable condos, priced from about $90k for a decent studio, and up?

hckystr42

September 16th, 2008, 11:12 PM

HermosaBeachBoy- After your post I was curious as to what the price range of the condos in RC were going to be as well. So I sent Dan Hujet of Realty Executives an email to inquire about the price. The response I got back is below.

"The condos, at this point in time are projected to be in the $175,000-$225,000 range depending on the range of finishes with the interior. They can go upward from there depending on the size of the unit you would like."

A little bit more expensive than I was originally thinking they would have been. I thought they would have been 100k - 150k, but still a good sign to see them cheaper than something in Riverfront Lofts or AP.

HermosaBeachBoy

September 17th, 2008, 05:41 PM

Kinda what I figured too, but too lazy to go right to the source to find out I guess! All we can do is wait and see what with all the melting down going on.

Puant

September 18th, 2008, 04:33 AM

Well I don't know about you guys...I think this dire economic situation will get far worse before it gets better again. This means that we just won't see much private investment in new construction for a long time...could be a decade or so.

I wouldn't anticipate our downtown will change much over the next several years. The glitzy skyscrapers simply will not be built.

On the other hand, I think that the city will contract a little bit, some people may be more interested in rehabbing existing buildings and moving back inward.

Also the federal government will likely put people to work rebuilding public infrastructure, just like they did in the 1930s, unless for some reason the federal government sinks so far into debt and dysfunction that they can't even muster those kinds of programs.

On the bright side, perhaps passenger rail will finally get the support it needs to get rebuilt. But that won't be nearly as exciting when everything else is bad...

Maybe I'm overly gloomy.......but the Greater Depression may be on the way. Does not bode well for new development....

Jschmuck

September 18th, 2008, 05:43 AM

I was thinking about the same thing earlier, but its just too tough to tell right now... It looks more like a bear market, but at the same time its possible to go through a recession first then enter the depression, in which the majority of this nation believes we are (possibly were) in a recession. But who knows, a crash could happen tomorrow. I just wonder though if the economy has grown to big and diverse that anything as bad as the Great Depression could actually happen again.

OliverDP

September 18th, 2008, 03:21 PM

I'm not on board with the doom and gloom perception of things. Decades for skyscrapers seems a bit far off. GB may never see these sky scrapers, but that's not due to the market. There are condos and office buildings going up all over the country so I have a tough time believing that the financial market is 100% responsible.

The way I see it, the market will be primed for a huge boost within the next year, mainly for two reasons. Interest rates are extremely low (2% I think). With the recent financial institutions bringing forth some bad news I would expect these to hold close to steady until it is all resolved. Also, gas futures are down below $100 (although they were up a few bucks in the past couple days). This has a trickle down effect, which will be seen at the pumps within the next 2 months and I expect gas prices to drop below $3.50. Although not ideal prices, this is considerably lower than they were earlier in the year.

How does this relate to Green Bay? Well, Vetter blamed the delays on one factor in the last meeting (Tuesday night I think)... the market!! Guy Zima actually called him out and Vetter became very defensive and said that if the city is behind him he will stick with it, but if he doesn't have the support of the city he will pull out. I'm paraphrasing here, as I heard it on a morning news radio station, but they had the actual conversation that took place. I used to be in support of the Vetter projects, probably because they were glamorous and would bring notoriety to downtown, but this is one point where I am starting to lean towards Zima's perspective. Now, I'm not sure what Zima has in mind if Vetter pulls out, but I think it's past due that we see some more action on his parcels. There are too many other projects linked to and dependent upon the river center, boardwalk, and Site 1 being filled.

Been a bit quiet lately so I thought I would throw out some points to debate :)

Night Rider

September 18th, 2008, 04:35 PM

If you go to the website for the children's museum they say it will be opening JAN 2009. It's probably a old photo, but I posted a copy of it from the web site. http://www.gbchildrensmuseum.org/images/render.jpg
I didn't realized it, but it's looking like they are trying to incorporate more of the dark brown metal in other parts of the project.
I know PUANT wouldn't mind the walk, but for others wanting to move into Flats on the Fox, I hope they can get the museum/parking ramp started.
They should just start ripping down a portion of the mall & make a temporary parking lot for Flats on the Fox tenants....
I think we'll be lucky if it even gets stared in 2009, let alone be finished.

Danillo

September 18th, 2008, 06:09 PM

Qunicy's:

Well, I have no idea if they are doing well or not, so I'm not going to speculate on them in particular but rather comment on restaurants in general. Something like 25% or restaurants fail in the first year, and something like 50 or 60% fail within three years. It's a very competitive business. In a downtown with quite a few restaurants, some are going to fail from time to time, and that isn't necessarily anyone's fault or some black mark on the downtown. It's sad when favorite places like The Stein close, but sadly that's life in a free market.

Fox Lofts

Well, this building isn't going to win any design awards or anything, but I really don't think it's that bad. Now, there are a few things they were looking at doing with the design that didn't make it into the final design, and that's a shame, it could have been better. I also wonder if it would be better with a darker red brick and silver-ish metal, as I think earlier renderings had, but we'll really only know how it will look once the rest of the complex is built. I think right now the biggest thing is that it's hurt by its isolation, and it's not a design that's intended to be viewed from many of the angles from which it is viewed now. At any rate, I think it's overall a positive addition to the downtown and while the design could have been better, I don't think it's bad either.

Broadway

Obviously they've done some good things on Broadway, some interesting shops and places to eat. My big problem is that all the retail closes at 5 or so, so every time I'm down there it's empty. Hopefully if things go well with the Larsen site the area will have more people and shops will have more incentive to stay open until 7 or 8.

Economy

Well, we haven't even officially been in a recession yet (two consecutive quarters of negative economic growth, and I don't think there's even been one), so I think talk of a depression is premature. There's too much focus on the Dow Jones average as an indicator of what's happening, but that's just one indicator, and a fairly narrow one. Plus the news media reports selectively and sensationally. Reports headlined "Turmoil on Wall Street" or "Is a Depression Looking" get generate more interest that a headline reading "Market Troubles Contrast With Broader Economy That Is Still Growing."

Certainly the difficulty in getting loans is going to hurt projects. And looking long term there are a number of factors from increasing federal debt, to dependence on a diminishing energy resource (especially relative to demand), to health care costs rising at a rate so much greater than inflation that pose a threat to the economy. However, I just don't think there's enough to indicate that a depression in coming in the short term (next 10 years) and the concerns listed above can be addressed before they are critical.

As it relates to the downtown, I think the credit issues will make a project like Astor Place more difficult, but then again that didn't get started before the housing market deteriorated as it has, so I think there's more at work there than just the market. Really, I think the way the market hurts a large housing project the most is that it's removed speculators who may have purchased a block of units in the hopes of being able to sell them at a profit just after the building is completed. However, with the right project and considering the lack of urban living options in the area, I still think there's a market for the single-unit buyers who are interested in that lifestyle. It just needs to be the right project, and the bulk of the units probably have to be below $300,000 to 400,000, and just a select few above that. But I think it can work with the right project and the right team.

More generally, we need to remember that it took 30 years for the downtown to sink where it did. Projects like the Fox Lofts and the ShopKo Express, compared to any development that was taking place ten years ago (or lack thereof) are nothing to sneeze at. More importantly, we are still seeing entrepreneurs and developers show interest in doing business downtown. All of this in a less than ideal market.

Sometimes the wheels of change turn slowly, and I want a vibrant downtown yesterday as bad as anyone else, but I really think when viewed in a broader context we're still seeing consistent progress, and things moving in a way that if you had told me this would be happening 10 years ago I'd probably have taken this level of progress in a heartbeat.

And yes, my glass is half-full, thank you.

Morse

September 18th, 2008, 11:11 PM

Scroll to page 8. Here the Flats is in Red/Silver. A cool pic.

http://www.onbroadway.org/merge/archive/JulAug07Merge_website.pdf

Nativist

September 19th, 2008, 04:06 AM

You're right, I think that would have been better. Wow, seeing that made me a little whistful... I was much more bullish on all of this in '07. I wonder what happened to that C4 Arts project, I don't remember hearing about that one.

ECONOMY: I think we're in a recession, I just don't think that the impact has been evenly felt enough for it to be measured by the standard two quarters of negative growth metric. Things don't work like they used to, there used to be a correlation between the growth of the economy and employment, for example, yet we've had two quarters of tepid growth accompanied by the loss of 600,000 jobs since January. I think that there are some who are doing very well in this economy, but the majority are not doing particularly well. Green Bay, however, appears to be weathering it (so far, knock on wood) relatively well. Our housing values were never wildly inflated, and we actually make things here; in other words our economy isn't based on flim flam. I think we may have to adjust our expectations, but I don't think we're going to grind to standstill. Or, at least I hope we patch up the Younkers building before we do...

Puant

September 19th, 2008, 05:17 AM

I like to be optimistic too but let's face the reality that we're in a recession (even if the technical data doesn't yet show it) and let's face the certainty that the economic turbulence very well could have us on the brink of disaster. Not to bum you out or anything, just keepin' it real.

I do think our little city of Green Bay is more likely to weather the likely depression better than many other cities---we have good agricultural land and can grow food nearby; we have water, including a Great Lakes port (still the most efficient means of transporting bulk goods); we have industrious and mostly hard-working people; the climate isn't too harsh except for a few months during the winter; and of course we have that manufacturing base.

So how's that for a little bit of audacious hope?

I don't believe these strong points will translate into glitzy high-rise skyscrapers, though. However, for a variety of reasons I do believe the downtown could benefit--probably 3-5 story buildings but possibly also more in the form of warehouses and stuff like that.

I'm ready to settle for the idea that a lot of our stuff will be scaled back: Fewer high-end glitzy condos or upscale restaurants, etc. Instead, I'd be happy with less expensive--but still well-designed & well-built, quality--stuff....
....Kind of how they built stuff in the 1930s....

For a variety of reasons, I think Green Bay downtown's zenith was probably reached in the late 1930's (during the Great Depression--not to imply there is a relationship). Thankfully, the economy got better, but the downtown suffered with the new trends of car-dominence and the "great purging of eveything old".

Danillo

September 19th, 2008, 04:54 PM

I think we're in a recession, I just don't think that the impact has been evenly felt enough for it to be measured by the standard two quarters of negative growth metric. Things don't work like they used to, there used to be a correlation between the growth of the economy and employment, for example, yet we've had two quarters of tepid growth accompanied by the loss of 600,000 jobs since January. I think that there are some who are doing very well in this economy, but the majority are not doing particularly well...

I like to be optimistic too but let's face the reality that we're in a recession (even if the technical data doesn't yet show it) and let's face the certainty that the economic turbulence very well could have us on the brink of disaster. Not to bum you out or anything, just keepin' it real.

Well, if you folks feel like calling it a recession, go ahead, but by definition, it's not been a recession. Similarly, if it's cold out and raining, you could feel like calling it snow, even if according to the definition of snow, it isn't.

I see what you're saying, and certainly this isn't a great economy and there are some fundamental problems, but the economy hasn't shrunk (which does matter) and as such it's just not a recession. Now, in six months we may look back and say that this was the start of a recession, but we don't know that now. Even the job data, while certainly not great if you've lost a job, isn't all that bad by historical or developed-world standards. I think we're at, what, 6% unemployment right now? The estimated unemployment rate in '05 for the European Union was 9.4%. Now in fairness they have a significantly different economic model, but still...

I don't believe these strong points will translate into glitzy high-rise skyscrapers, though. However, for a variety of reasons I do believe the downtown could benefit--probably 3-5 story buildings but possibly also more in the form of warehouses and stuff like that.

I'm ready to settle for the idea that a lot of our stuff will be scaled back: Fewer high-end glitzy condos or upscale restaurants, etc. Instead, I'd be happy with less expensive--but still well-designed & well-built, quality--stuff....
....Kind of how they built stuff in the 1930s...

Is that how they built in the 30's??? I'm guessing a building like the Northern Building was about the best building they could build. What would a building of equivalent quality, using the materials and techniques of today (if you tried to build an authentic art-deco building today, the cost would be prohibitive), relative to the size of the local economy be? I'm thinking such a building would be a glitzy high-rise.

Look, I'm not in essence disagreeing. There's a place for good quality infill. But I also don't think it's just as simple as saying the if a 17-story building won't work, a 5 story one will. Nor do we want to fill sites just for the sake of filling them. There are really two sites that call out for high rise buildings, and whether that means 10 stories or 20, something on a significant scale should be there, and I think if we have a bit of patience the market will support such buildings. Pretty much everything else should be open for what the market can bear, which is probably going to be smaller, but not necessarily so.

GBSurveyor

September 19th, 2008, 08:59 PM

Well- It has been nice reading all of the comments. If I could just jump in and add a few comments.

My belief is that our local economy is somewhat sheltered from the rest of the US. The credit crisis however was and is affecting everything. When we find out what the FED and Treasury come up with to resolve all the bad loans and gridlock in the capitol system maybe we will start to see growth pickup. We must also remember that even though oil has dropped from its high it is still a finite resource. The trend in many, many areas has been tighter, more compact development. I still don't really see that happening here, to the extent that it is useful. Downtown infill will happen. I know that everyone is anxious to see some things happen with the riverfront, give this credit market some time to work things out. What the city should be concearned with is removeing the damn mall. That should be priorty #1, let individual developers/investors step up and get some 2-5 story builings built in that space. Lets save our cherished river for something of significance.

sr22ger

September 19th, 2008, 10:25 PM

Lets save our cherished river for something of significance.

I don't think they meant to put the 2-5 story infill buildings along the river, but yet focus on those type buildings elsewhere in downtown, and hold off the the riverfront development until the economic and social atmosphere can handle the larger "signature" buildings.

Things like tearing the mall down, replacing parking lots and other blighted buildings with mid rise infill will eventually bring the high rise development along the river. Now with that said, I might be the only one on the board who supports Vetter and his continued effort for financing and acquiring tentants for both river center and astor place. Now if Astor Place fails to get off the ground by the end of 2009, I would hope the city board cuts ties with Vetter on that site and reserves it for a future signature building.

jerkylips999

September 19th, 2008, 11:16 PM

I don't think they meant to put the 2-5 story infill buildings along the river, but yet focus on those type buildings elsewhere in downtown, and hold off the the riverfront development until the economic and social atmosphere can handle the larger "signature" buildings.

Things like tearing the mall down, replacing parking lots and other blighted buildings with mid rise infill will eventually bring the high rise development along the river. Now with that said, I might be the only one on the board who supports Vetter and his continued effort for financing and acquiring tentants for both river center and astor place. Now if Astor Place fails to get off the ground by the end of 2009, I would hope the city board cuts ties with Vetter on that site and reserves it for a future signature building.

I definitely agree with this. Once a building is up, for all intents, it's permanent. There's no point in rushing to get something up along the river just for the sake of doing it. I'd rather wait, & have something that fits the site, & fits the needs of downtown. There has been so much talk & so little action in the last few years that something like working on the mall site & doing smaller scale stuff just to get some momentum, would do a lot for the image of downtown. Quite frankly, that seems like the smarter road to take anyway. Building a 17 story condo in a market that has NOTHING of the sort seems like a big gamble. Testing the waters, so to speak, seems like the smarter play.

Puant

September 20th, 2008, 04:28 AM

All right then, we all agree it's time to bulldoze most of the mall to put the street grid back through (especially at Adams St) and enable smaller developers to move in. LET'S DO IT THEN!! Why do we have to wait for this big ass T. Wall plan which seems to be going nowhere? Putting the street grid back through seems like exacty the kind of thing the City should be doing to allow private developers to move in.

I recall Vetter saying years ago that he felt the riverfront development was needed to be the catalyst for the rest of the downtown, to "pull it up by the bootstrap" or somehting like that. Well now we're all kind of wondering if that was the wrong approach---maybe it's the other way around---the other parts of downtown should be primed for development in order to pull up the WATERFRONT by the bootstrap.

For what its worth, I still enjoy going downtonw every day, even if it is lacking. To me it's still got enough to keep me interested & dreaming of what was and what could be.

Jschmuck

September 20th, 2008, 07:22 AM

sr22er - you're not the only one who supports Vetter, i support him as well...I think its great that we have a Wisconsin architect pursuing downtown instead of someone out of state, secondly Vetter has a very successful history i believe. But ive said this before, Green Bay's higher class demographics are the kind that I THINK mostly prefer land instead of an appartment setting, to store all there toys. Now if Vetter proposed buildings/highrises with condos with a price range lets say - 100,000 to 1,000,000, that might be closer to green bays OVERALL demographics. With that said, maybe Vetter shouldn't propose living space, instead pursue a hotel, office tower, or the trend, a mixed use building like the kind rising in milwaukee (drools). What would be best is an Astor Place that has 13 first floors comprised of retail, floors 4-8 hotel suites, floors 9-17 condos.

titletown

September 22nd, 2008, 05:40 AM

God forbid they show downtown during the game, but they will show a bridge how many times. I say it is a conspiracy. Let's overplay this tiny tiny town on national tv lol.

Night Rider

September 23rd, 2008, 05:14 AM

It seemed like when we got our current mayor there was some progress & momentum. I just wonder if some new blood in the mayors office might shake things up a bit & bring some new ideas & development.

Navarino Rezdnt

September 23rd, 2008, 11:55 PM

I'm not sure if new blood in the mayor's office would jump start the stalled development DT. I believe it has more to do with market forces and the uncertainty of our current economic situation.

I do agree with those on the forum that think the flow of development, AP and RC being put before the clearing away of the mall and breaking up the parcel for development of individual mid-rise buildings may not have been the best. We're still in the early rounds of the fight to turn around downtown and going for the big punch early on wasn't the best move.

Someone on this board a long time ago used the euphemism that the boardwalk was the horse that pulls the cart, so until we have the horse (City Deck), gauging success of development is somewhat hard to do. So with the building of the City Deck, the Cherry St Ramp retail will look more appealing to businesses thinking of locating DT. Interest and action at the mall site hopefully will increase. It's all incremental and will take time. I know we've all been waiting a long time for some things to happen but I'm OK with the time-line if it is all done right.

I hope for all the best for The Republic and its first couple of years in business. I fear that like other businesses that had intentions of being a restaurant/pub that it doesn't end up being just another downtown tavern.

Danillo

September 24th, 2008, 08:50 PM

jerkylips999

September 24th, 2008, 09:11 PM

Regarding the Mall site, I agree that the thing to do would be to tear down the mall, put the streets through, parcel out the land, and then open it up for development. The problem is that doing so would cost money, and this city doesn't believe in spending money. Look at the opposition to the boardwalk, and that's a project that's set up to get funding in place before work begins on the various phases.

Of course, the reality is that the city is going to pay for removing the mall, either before hand by just doing it and not TIFing the developments as much, or by waiting until a development comes along and then paying for the developer to do it through TIF. The difference between the two options is really just confidence, and the council rarely has any of that. I don't even know if that's the worst thing in the world generally, but it is what it is.

Regarding the ordering of things, or building smaller now versus taller now or whatever, the types of project are just so different that I'm not even sure they compete directly. Dealing with the costs involved in a high-rise make it quite a bit different project and make for different price-points than a 4 or 5 floor building. I just don't think it's the case that because the city is working with Vetter on Astor Place, that there's some theoretical 5 story building that isn't happening as a result. Not that there's no overlap, I just don't think it's enough to kill either if the plan is right.

Now, maybe market forces aren't right for Astor Place, but I don't think the city is discouraging anything else (besides something like the Sinclaire proposal for the same site) by continuing to support AP. Maybe if the mall site was clear, you'd see some smaller scale residential proposals, but as discussed above, that's (paying to take down the mall) just not going to happen in Green Bay, and even if it did I fail to see why the city couldn't work on both and work with developers to try to make for different projects that compliment the goals of an urban area without undermining each other.

Since it sounds like this may be directed at one of my recent posts, I'll respond. Basically, I agree with everything that you just said. That said, I wasn't implying that Astor Place is holding up the mall site or vice versa. The point I was trying to get to is that if there is not enough confidence in the downtown plan to attract large investors (for the Astor project), maybe starting on a smaller scale & showing that there IS a market for retail, restaurants, commercial, residential in that area, it may attract more interest for the bigger projects. People that have the money to invest in projects like this don't freely hand it out--they want a reasonable assurance that they will get a return.

About the mall site -

You bring up an interesting point about the expense of tearing it down. I would be interested to know what kind of carrying costs the city is currently paying to keep the mall in the vertical position.

It seems that if money is the only reason to NOT tear it down now, some sort of arrangement could be worked out, outside of TIF..

Morse

September 25th, 2008, 04:31 AM

Fillmore

September 25th, 2008, 05:56 AM

God forbid they show downtown during the game, but they will show a bridge how many times. I say it is a conspiracy. Let's overplay this tiny tiny town on national tv lol.

That's no joke, Titletown. In fact, I wrote a graduate paper on just this topic. I will post it here shortly, but you should really think about the reality of downtown Green Bay and how it's growth has been paradoxically stopped by the very entity it is supposed to support, the Packers. Those national television spots are planned out sometimes days in advance, and the perception of GB as a small, midwestern town where everyone watches football and life stops when the Packers play must be kept up.

Puant

September 25th, 2008, 06:33 AM

^^So, by extension, what you guys are saying is: If Green Bay downtown started getting built up with tall buildings, then fewer people would want to watch the Packers on TV because it could no longer be portrayed as a puny cow town?

I say that toungue-in-cheek; in fact I wrote about this a little bit myself in one of my early blog articles (http://packerland.blogspot.com/2007/08/sprawling-pains.html).

P.S. I'm still thinking about whether the economic problems (which I still think will lead to recession and/or depression) might help or hurt the downtown.

Right now I'm leaning towards the idea that some of our problems will eventually help the downtown as people can no longer drive everywhere because gas will be $8 per gallon. We will eventually have to return at least somewhat to the more traditional compact mode of living, and the downtown still has that fabric. But it will be a while before the most stubborn among us some to grips with that. We could use some good leadership here but it seems like political leadership is dead because people are too polarized in an irrational sort of way.

GBSurveyor

September 25th, 2008, 07:24 AM

P.S. I'm still thinking about whether the economic problems (which I still think will lead to recession and/or depression) might help or hurt the downtown.

Right now I'm leaning towards the idea that some of our problems will eventually help the downtown as people can no longer drive everywhere because gas will be $8 per gallon. We will eventually have to return at least somewhat to the more traditional compact mode of living, and the downtown still has that fabric. But it will be a while before the most stubborn among us some to grips with that. We could use some good leadership here but it seems like political leadership is dead because people are too polarized in an irrational sort of way.
Well a global slowdown should drive down the cost of many of the commodities, including oil and steel, but if the great depression 2 were to occur most of us wouldn't have a job and therefore wont be able to pay for much. Little Green Bay may not be as harmed as some sectors and areas, but the doom and gloom looks bad.

I have this feeling that some people may just give up if walking was required, I mean just think about it, how in the world would someone get from the Shopko at Baypark to Texas Roadhouse without driving???

titletown

September 26th, 2008, 07:50 AM

Yet another lawsuit awaits the jokers in our city office. Unfrickenbelievable how many times this city is getting sued lately...

http://www.nbc26.com/global/video/popup/pop_playerLaunch.asp?vt1=v&clipFormat=flv&clipId1=2958158&at1=News&h1=Legal%20Troubles,%20Again?

Green Bay 4 Life

September 26th, 2008, 05:11 PM

hckystr42

September 26th, 2008, 08:26 PM

I couldn't quite remember, but does the boardwalk begin construction on Monday or a week from Monday? Have they started bringing in any equipment for that yet?

Night Rider

September 26th, 2008, 09:16 PM

I couldn't quite remember, but does the boardwalk begin construction on Monday or a week from Monday? Have they started bringing in any equipment for that yet?

I can't answer your question, but they did say it was going to happen this month. If they wait until a week from Monday, we're talking October. I haven't seen any equipment building up by the river.

But this kind of goes back to the old joke......How do you know when a politician is lying?

When they open their mouth!

jerkylips999

September 26th, 2008, 09:44 PM

I can't answer your question, but they did say it was going to happen this month. If they wait until a week from Monday, we're talking October. I haven't seen any equipment building up by the river.

But this kind of goes back to the old joke......How do you know when a politician is lying?

When they open their mouth!

haven't you guys heard? They changed the design of the boardwalk. In an effort to make it even cooler, they decided to make it invisible. They've been working on it all summer--it's almost done!!

don't believe me? here's a picture!!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3241/2889830337_3c9ab4d157_o.jpg

Night Rider

September 26th, 2008, 10:11 PM

haven't you guys heard? They changed the design of the boardwalk. In an effort to make it even cooler, they decided to make it invisible. They've been working on it all summer--it's almost done!!

don't believe me? here's a picture!!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3241/2889830337_3c9ab4d157_o.jpg

Way funny! I can think of a few people I'd like to tell to take the long walk on the "invisible" pier.

Morse

September 26th, 2008, 11:05 PM

Way to go Chad Fradette. Is this guy for real? :ohno:

At least Guy Zima didn't get 'duped' again:)

Green Bay 4 Life

September 26th, 2008, 11:39 PM

At least Guy Zima didn't get 'duped' again:)

He's hilarious. "I blame staff." Well maybe if you didn't push it through so quickly and allow some time from staff to see what possible things may come up - then this stuff wouldn't happen. He's running for office, so he couldn't obviously accept any ounce of responsibility but holy cow - I thought Green bay would be better off w/o him, but now everything that he championed is coming back to bite us.

Night Rider

September 28th, 2008, 08:41 PM

Puant

September 28th, 2008, 09:23 PM

If you drive or for Puant (bike or walk).....

Whoah, wait a minute--I do ASPIRE to walk and bike more but I certainly do drive as well, particularly in the fall & winter. In this town, it's really tough to get around without cars---everything is so spread out.

Nativist

September 28th, 2008, 10:18 PM

Here I go being critical again... I drove past the Flats yesterday and I noticed a couple of things: 1.) the curbs along that stretch of Washington have been chipped away to an extraordinary degree (skateboarders? construction equipment?). I was kind of shocked by how rundown they look already. 2.) The North face of the building, facing what would be Astor Place... it has a terrible sense of scale for pedestrians. It's just not comfortable on a psychological level to be adjacent to such an almost unbroken expanse of verticality. I don't think those retail spaces are going to feel right unless they put in something to break it up, like awnings or some kind of arbor.

Night Rider

September 28th, 2008, 10:28 PM

Whoah, wait a minute--I do ASPIRE to walk and bike more but I certainly do drive as well, particularly in the fall & winter. In this town, it's really tough to get around without cars---everything is so spread out.

http://www.lessonsofhistory.co.uk/caveman_gerg_driving_primitive_car_md_clr.gif[

nowpc2

September 29th, 2008, 12:08 PM

Has anyone tried the Republic Chophouse yet? My wife and I went there this weekend to try it out.

I was amazed at what they did with the building. I had been in it several times when it was Reiser's Diamond Vault as our retail store and offices were next door. The transformation is amazing!

The service was great and the food was great as well.

I do wonder if the pricing will be a bit high for the area but then again it is inline with Hinterland which seems to do well.

They do have a nice web site with many images located at http://www.republicchophouse.com.

MattGiguere

September 29th, 2008, 04:12 PM

I guess this would be an appropriate time to make a plug for the University of Wisconsin-Stout. Congratulations to Chef Abbey Steffen and the opening of Republic Chophouse. As a student of her alma mater, UW-Stout, myself I cannot wait to get back to Green Bay to try it out!

Go Blue Devils!

Danillo

September 29th, 2008, 06:35 PM

If you drive or for Puant (bike or walk), by the North side of Flats on the Fox building at night you can see pretty good into the ground units. They have a large front windows that face the North. While they don't appear to be luxurious, they look fairly nice. If it turns into the vibrant downtown that would be a interesting view. It appears the main kitchen/dining area is downstairs & a stairwell leads to the 2nd floor.
On the back of the building there is a large room that faces the Fox with a bunch of windows. This room is under construction.
Hopefully with the subsidized prices so low they can fill up the place. The only real big negative to me is the parking situation.

I was going to comment on this same thing. I believe the room on the river side is supposed to be retail. The units on the Flatley Ct. side are supposed to be live/work units. I agree that they look nice, but I have no idea how they'll function. As you mentioned, the ground floor seems to be kitchen/dining/living rooms.

In theory I could see myself, if I lived there, using the bottom floor as a gallery space, which is what the live/work idea is supposed to accommodate. Now, in practical terms I can't live there, so I use "I" and "me" as a metaphor for people like me. But I think I'd enjoy coming home at night, then opening the gallery from say, 5 until 8, but already being home. Plus it could be open on Saturday. (as you can see, I've given this too much thought, but it isn't like i was looking in and planning how I'd display things...oh wait... it's exactly like that...).

The problem is, that space doesn't work great as a gallery/retail space, it's a kitchen/dining/living room. As that, I'm not sure it functions well either. To actually use that space as a residence, you'd have to have the windows blocked 100% of the time, unless you don't mind passers by being able to look right into your apartment.

So anyway, if anyone wants to put up money for me to rent one of those and have a evening/weekend gallery there, I'm all ears!

Here I go being critical again... I drove past the Flats yesterday and I noticed a couple of things: 1.) the curbs along that stretch of Washington have been chipped away to an extraordinary degree (skateboarders? construction equipment?). I was kind of shocked by how rundown they look already.

Is the section you are referring to where the mall used to go over? If so, my guess is that the 2nd floor of the mall falling on those curbs would have done a fair bit of damage.

2.) The North face of the building, facing what would be Astor Place... it has a terrible sense of scale for pedestrians. It's just not comfortable on a psychological level to be adjacent to such an almost unbroken expanse of verticality. I don't think those retail spaces are going to feel right unless they put in something to break it up, like awnings or some kind of arbor.

I agree. Ideally, if those units were being used as live/work units, and as such the first floor had a few storefronts, then it would make sense to have some nice awnings above the storefront windows. With those as "retail" windows, and with some awnings to break up the facade, I think the problem would be solved (particularly when something is built across the street) and it would bring that down to a much more human scale. But right now, I agree, very imposing.

Has anyone tried the Republic Chophouse yet? My wife and I went there this weekend to try it out.

I was amazed at what they did with the building.

I agree. I've not been inside, but I think they did an excellent job with the facade. I can see in one sense where it would be nice to have left windows right on the sidewalk, but once the planters are planted it will be very pleasant and give more privacy inside. Quality work!

Night Rider

September 29th, 2008, 08:42 PM

I do wonder if the pricing will be a bit high for the area but then again it is inline with Hinterland which seems to do well.

$70 for a surf & turf. I'm going to have to start donating plasma to afford a meal there.

Puant

September 30th, 2008, 02:52 AM

^^I sure hope the Republic Chophouse does well.

RIght now there seems to be a buzz about it. Quincy's had that buzz as well (and I thought it still had it but according to some of you...not so much).

Danillo--
I don't know what kind of gallery you're thinking about--art/photos I assume--but you should combine that with your custom bike shop. Really detailed custom painted bikes. Have the shop in there, so when people come in from the trail to look at bikes or have them fixed, they could look around at the art/photos on the wall. Problem is if they bought something...don't know if they'd be able to haul art home on a bike rack or panniers very well.
I have all kinds of crazy ideas in case you can't tell.....

I'd like to see some sort of observation tower at the head of the Fox River trail near the WPS building. Something people could climb up to and overlook the city and actually see the BAY. I think the view would be fantastic and in addition to being a destination on to mark the Fox River Trail head, it would also tie into the boat docks there, the convention center & hotels, etc.

The Downtown Design Plan actually does call for a tower of some sort here (I was proud when I discovered that 'cuz I came up with it myself before even knowing that it was in the plan...)

I was thinking the base could be some sort of art or local history gallery and people could ascend the stairs looking at art and historical information about Fort Howard, old Green Bay, etc. Then at the top (in the "lantern" area) there could be an observatin deck just to look around, you know, at piles of coal and dead carp smokestacks and such. Perhaps get a bite to eat if the dead carp aren't too much of a putoff.

I like the old lighthouses so I guess that's why I went with this sort of design, but it probably doesn't fit (someone else could come up with a better design no doubt)

crazy as this is, drawing this stuff up help me learn how to use software which I need to do anyway...so it's not a complete waste of my late night spare time...

sr22ger

September 30th, 2008, 05:21 AM

I just made reservations for Hinterland, but now I'm second guessing myself...ok nevermind Hinterland it is. I can see the Luna Stout flowing from my desk. :cheers:

Being a recent new employee at the company who owns that land you want to put the observation tower on Puant...
-I am totally suprised by the amount of people who work downtown. The traffic coming from the south can be fairly bad actually.
-Which brings me to believe that more of a focus needs to be put on keeping those employees downtown during their lunch, after work and coming back on weekends versus trying to attract your typical Ashwaubenon soccer mom who doesn't know that restaurants exist outside of IHop and Noodles Co.
-The parking lots at the Integrys facility are horrendous. Enough said. So much developable land, most of it with direct river frontage, just going to waste for my car to park in. Yes, it overlooks a factory, but I'm sure there are ways to minimize the views to the north and east. It doesn't seem to be overly noisy or anything like that though.
-It was August when Integrys donated the money to the City Deck and said it would start in September. 2 days left...
-I walked to get my lunch last week. It was refreshing. But then I realized how ugly the plywood boarded mall was. And how much I will miss a burrito place. The food places seemed to be packed so I'm sure a burrito place focusing on business lunches and late night party goers will do awesome. I just wish I had the capital to open one. The ramp retail seems about the right location too.

Chicagoenvy

September 30th, 2008, 06:10 AM

What's the latest on the food court in the Baylake Blding?

Some pizza place and 2 or 3 other spots. I had thought they were open long ago but last I read was maybe 3 months ago and they were not ready yet.

Unless I'm getting memories mixed up??????

As for Republic...considering my wife and I can swing about $35 for a nice meal and $50 for very special instances I can safely say I will never eat at Republic.

I think it's a great addition to DT but again....where is the family style dinning where a couple can eat for under $35?

It seems most of these places are dressy and expensive..which is fine but I want a Perkins sort of joint downtown..but not Perkins per se. And not Blackstone either.

Some place casual..open til 10....can wear jeans and a nice shirt....and still have money left over once done.

Sure...we could drive to Perkins or IHOP but I LIVE downtown and I want to get away from having to drive every time I want something.

Night Rider

September 30th, 2008, 12:00 PM

What's the latest on the food court in the Baylake Blding?

Some pizza place and 2 or 3 other spots. I had thought they were open long ago but last I read was maybe 3 months ago and they were not ready yet.

Unless I'm getting memories mixed up??????

Food court opened up a while back & then folded. It's now a low-life bar. Wish the food court was back. I ate there now & then and it was a nice clean place with a little bit of everything. That was probably the downfall, probably had too much to offer.

jerkylips999

September 30th, 2008, 04:43 PM

And not Blackstone either.

what's wrong with blackstone????

Nativist

September 30th, 2008, 07:05 PM

Can't speak for Chicagoenvy, but here's why I don't go to the blackstone: it's smoky, the food is mediocre, and the lighting is harsh. Maybe it's changed, I formed my opinion after it reopened on Walnut St. around 2004. I used to live practically across the street, and I was really excited about it, but it kind of fails to deliver on the promise of decent diner food/environment. I don't think there's anything wrong with liking it, it's just not what I'm looking for. I think Chicagoenvy is substantially correct, there are many places for casual dining in downtown Green Bay. It's probably one of the better places to get lunch in the area. And then there's some high-end stuff: Hinterland, Quincy's, Republic Chophouse. But aside from Titletown, there's not much in the middle. Little Tokyo is good for sushi and Bangkok Garden is so so for Thai.

The reason for this is pretty simple, restaurants in downtown Green Bay are mostly independently run small businesses. No one dreams of opening their own Appleby's, and if they tried they wouldn't be able to take advantage of the same economies of scale that make those places on Oneida St. profitable.

Danillo

September 30th, 2008, 07:26 PM

I think it's a great addition to DT but again....where is the family style dinning where a couple can eat for under $35?

Well, there's Titletown, and hopefully the family oriented restaurant that's supposed to go into River Center. But I see what you're saying, most of the places seem to be a little more, or in the case of a few, a lot more.

Regarding the Republic, I hope they do well. Between that and Quincy's, that's I'd imagine a comparatively small market, so hopefully both can succeed but it will be competitive I'm sure.

Danillo--
I don't know what kind of gallery you're thinking about--art/photos I assume--but you should combine that with your custom bike shop. Really detailed custom painted bikes. Have the shop in there, so when people come in from the trail to look at bikes or have them fixed, they could look around at the art/photos on the wall. Problem is if they bought something...don't know if they'd be able to haul art home on a bike rack or panniers very well.
I have all kinds of crazy ideas in case you can't tell.....

Well, photos/paintings are what I'm thinking. The problem with bikes is A) very small market, and B) they take up a lot of space to store and work on. But hey, while we're in dreamland, sure, great idea, bikes it is! Being realistic, I do thing the gallery could work some day, but it would have to be done right and almost certainly in conjunction with web/graphic design work.

I'd like to see some sort of observation tower at the head of the Fox River trail near the WPS building. Something people could climb up to and overlook the city and actually see the BAY. I think the view would be fantastic and in addition to being a destination on to mark the Fox River Trail head, it would also tie into the boat docks there, the convention center & hotels, etc....

Come on... this is totally unrealistic. What this town needs is big ideas instead, I'm thinking more like this, right in the heart of downtown!!!

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/waterfront.jpg

:okay:

nowpc2

October 1st, 2008, 01:02 AM

Hello Chicagoenvy,

I agree with you. We would love some less expensive choices. I actually miss McDonald's and Taco Bell in the mall sometimes.

As for the Blackstone.. My wife and I are not smokers and prefer not to eat in a smokey area. We went into the Blackstone once and was hit by a large amount of smoke and walked out. They have a 'non smoking' area near the door which was a cloud of smoke.

I think it's a great addition to DT but again....where is the family style dinning where a couple can eat for under $35?

It seems most of these places are dressy and expensive..which is fine but I want a Perkins sort of joint downtown..but not Perkins per se. And not Blackstone either.

Bartles53

October 1st, 2008, 11:47 PM

Funny stuff on the board lately. The space needle looks terrific, Danillo. It ties in well with Puant’s porn addiction comments. The Broadway/Dousman Blackstone was awesome. It was always the perfect topper after a night at the downtown bars. Walking in there at 2:00 in the morning was like walking into a movie set. I never knew that people like that existed in Green Bay. I always felt like I needed to keep my head on a swivel in case a fight broke out. And the setting was perfect. The new place is removed from where the action is and the building and location are generic. The old Blackstone was spectacular and I’m still disappointed that they moved. It was a great addition to the downtown scene.

As for other downtown restaurants, Angelina is terrific. Great food. There’s also Café Espresso. I believe Fetaz is still around. And a short jaunt across the river will bring you to Urban Frog and the Burger Co. I really think there are great options downtown and as time passes and more people move in, the options will only get better. I love the thought of a burrito place. A good, hole in the wall burrito spot would kill at bar time.

Danillo

October 2nd, 2008, 12:24 AM

Thinking about mid-range, casual dining places downtown, I think that those are probably the last places we'll see down there (other than somewhere like Titletown). Really, that segment is probably the best served by chain places (other than fast food I suppose) of any segment. In both cases (Perkins to Applbee's type places, and fast food places), because the markets are so well served by chains, it's hard to break into the market when unless you have something really unique (like Titletown has with location and micro-brews). Chain places are the last ones that are going to move downtown because they are looking for certain criteria that fit their business model, and the downtown doesn't yet. An individual entrepreneur may look at the downtown and see that things are getting better, that the downtown is a place where they can make money, but that entrepreneur isn't going to compete with the major chain, so they'll open small, nicer places where they can carve out a niche and make money serving fewer people. Chains won't take that risk, they are followers, not leaders. So, while I agree that it's too bad we don't have more of that sort of place downtown, the more I think about it the less surprising it seems.

Puant

October 2nd, 2008, 01:57 AM

I see you read too much into my "downtown tower" ...you're getting all Freud on me here!

Anyway......

The Republic Chophouse is absolutely getting rave reviews from people I've talked to. Early on I had questioned the new facade, but they have now finished the planters and put some color to it, and I think it looks great. I have not been inside but I heard from a friend that it's absolutely awesome.

I also want to give a plug for Fetaz. I don't go there as much as I'd like, but I love their gyros and the roasted veggie pita. This place has been in business for what, 3 or 4 years now? THey seem to be doing pretty well, especially considering they have what looks like few bomb craters next to them on the old mall site.

Chicagoenvy

October 2nd, 2008, 03:25 AM

Wow..so the food court has come and gone already? :ohno:

Nuts.

I kept reading about it in the paper waiting for it to open and then nothing.

A few times I walked around by there and there are 2 sets of doors on that Wash. St. side and never saw any sort of signs or info letting people know where to go....

Wow.....sucks....that pizza place..Noahs I think...would have been ideal for me when I get done with work at 2pm.

Nothing against blackstone...the food/prices really are not bad. I used to love Skip-a-stone in Ashwaubenon. BS is wonderful at 10 at night when you are craving eggs and toast and only have $12 in your pocket.

But it is very smokey....my wife can't handle it and I don't care for it either.

It's also not the kind of place I'd want to take the wifes family when are over for a visit.

Burger Co is solid. Ate there once and it was good. Might have to give them another looksee.

sr22ger

October 2nd, 2008, 06:50 AM

THey seem to be doing pretty well, especially considering they have what looks like few bomb craters next to them on the old mall site.

Even their building has holes in the back of it. I should bring a camera with me for one of my lunch walks to show what I meant in my post earlier.

Puant

October 3rd, 2008, 02:29 AM

Night Rider

October 3rd, 2008, 04:15 AM

THat food court was OK if you like to feel like you're in a high school or college cafeteria. It was just fast food, nothing really interesting about it.

I tracked down Puant & took this photo. I guess he wasn't kidding, when he said he doesn't like fast food atmosphere.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b165/Couchptato10/geico-cavemen-restaurant.jpg

Puant

October 3rd, 2008, 04:30 AM

You'd better watch it!!! I've got some good lawyers on my side!!

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/sportsrant/library/CavemanLawyer.jpg

Night Rider

October 4th, 2008, 09:55 PM

I see there is some additional activity by the Astor Place site. Some construction trailers have moved in and trucking equipment is coming & going. My guess is the Astor Place site will be the entry area for the City Deck. At least something is happening!

Bellin Building

October 7th, 2008, 05:29 AM

Hi All:

I read some misinformation above. Quincy's and the Bull and Bear are doing fine. I'm not sure where the info posted above came from - but its disconcerting how such misinformation gets out there.

Approaching 10 months in business, I would say the first year will exceed expectations. I do believe that the Bull and Bear will be going through a bit of a makeover - some large stage curtains to create more intimacy and a stage and more live performance music.

Quincy's may also expand into another area of the building - I'd expect an announcement on that in the next few weeks/months.

As the owner of the building, if they were going out of business, I'd probably know. Please feel free to ask me any questions about our businesses in our building and please squelch any rumors!!!

Thanks,

S.

Morse

October 7th, 2008, 06:31 AM

Steve, its great to hear from you again! That is wonderful to hear that Quincy's and the Bull and Bear are doing fine. To have those types of establishments available and doing well in such a gem like the Bellin Building is fantastic. I believe that this is a model development and you are helping setting a foundation of what downtown Green Bay should and could be. Thank you again for your investment in downtown and here is to you perseverance:banana:

If you don't mind, I do have a couple of questions:)

1.) Can you give any news/updates on the Daily Planet site? You had mentioned awhile back that there was a proposal submitted on your behalf for a four story building with the green reflective glass. Is this still on the table? That sounded clean, modern and sharp and I sure hope that is still a possibility.

2.) Do you have any other plans for the Bellin Building or its vicinity?

3.) Have you heard any news on any other developments downtown? Since you are involved in downtown do you feel that there is still a good buzz and some momentum? Is the feeling that it is on the right track?

Thanks!

Puant

October 7th, 2008, 02:55 PM

good morning all-

Steve, thanks for the update. There does seem to be quite a bit of 'buzz' about Quincy's based but I wasn't sure since I haven't been there myself in a while. (the photo that Night Rider posted of me wasn't taken at Quincy's)

Here is a nice rendering of the Riverside Place boat slips which are supposed to be coming in Spring 2009:

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/Rendering_11x17_resized.jpg

Night Rider

October 7th, 2008, 04:57 PM

good morning all-

Here is a nice rendering of the Riverside Place boat slips which are supposed to be coming in Spring 2009:

How come the water is blue on the drawing? Should it be a pasty green or a clammy brown?

Danillo

October 7th, 2008, 06:52 PM

Steve, thanks for the update.

Regarding the boat slips rendering: can you sail on the river? I'm not a sailor, but the river seems pretty tight for anyone who would try to sail up it. I love on renderings how they show things like that to make them look prettier even when what they are showing isn't possible. Not to detract from having slips there, it'll be a good addition, but the first thing I saw was that sailboat.

Nativist

October 7th, 2008, 07:43 PM

Are those going to be publicly accessible, first-come first-serve boat slips? If that's the case, then that's awesome!

Puant

October 8th, 2008, 03:23 AM

When I lived in the RiversEdge apartments near here I used to see quite a few sailboats on the river, only not running under sail (they have small prop motors too).

I talked to a sailor friend who said sail boats with quite tall masts can still get pretty far up river. Obviously the lift bridges are downtown, then hwy 172 is very high to allow navigation. Though he wasn't sure what the clearance of the new DePere bridge is....the old one used to lift. The next one at Wrightstwon is also pretty high above the river, and it also might still lift (anyone know for sure)? Also I think some sail boats have a mast that can break down but I'm not sure. But yeah they mostly motor up river and do not use the sails.

I think the new slips are somehow tied to the condos that are right there, but I also seem to recall that they may be available to others as well, maybe even a transient dock or two.

I wonder about the big ships--they pass by here quite close, often their bow thrusters & prop wash can really rock the small boats that are too close (remember this wrecked a bunch of boats at the holiday inn marina some years back?) I would think that this project has cleared the federal navigation people by now?

hckystr42

October 8th, 2008, 04:05 AM

Last time when I was home for a weekend I went to an open house at the Riverside Place Condos. The gentleman that was there said that the slips will first be made available to condo owners, but any slips remaining after that can be rented out to the general public similar to how the Holiday Inn runs it.

nowpc2

October 8th, 2008, 10:48 AM

I still can't get used to the new name for the building. I was one of the first people to live there (in fact, my apartment was the first balcony on the first floor).

When we lived there it was so much fun to watch the boats going past. The boat slips I think will be a great addition.

good morning all-

Here is a nice rendering of the Riverside Place boat slips which are supposed to be coming in Spring 2009:

nowpc2

October 8th, 2008, 10:55 AM

Funny story... Recently I posted about my visit to the Republic Chophouse. The other day my wife and I returned to the Republic for our anniversary dinner.

Our server was very friendly and service was great.. However, she seemed really surprised when we told her that we had been there before.

She said something about it being the first return customer she had talked to.

Night Rider

October 8th, 2008, 04:28 PM

Funny story... She said something about it being the first return customer she had talked to.

I don't know if that's good or bad!?:)

Chicagoenvy

October 9th, 2008, 12:08 AM

Good thing Republic is by a bank..you can stop in and get a loan before you go eat.

Morse

October 9th, 2008, 02:04 AM

Here is a link to the newest Merge magazine from OBI. They have a nice story about Larsen Green (this development will add 8 more city blocks to Broadway and downtown) and a couple of renders from Dimension IV.

http://www.onbroadway.org/merge/archive/AugSept08Merge%20website%20Final.pdf

Night Rider

October 9th, 2008, 05:30 AM

http://www.meyertheatre.org/ImagesNew/starstruckHome.gif

I was at the Franks Production season ticket holder event tonight. Frank plugged the above event that will raise money for the non-profit Meyer Theatre. Frank mentioned that future plans for the Meyer include putting up a new sign & constructing a building where the old daily planet sits. He said they would like to have a restaurant & retail on the 1st floor & a large dining area to hold 300 on the 2nd floor. It will kind of bring back them to the roots of having dinner then a show. This is a good event to promote downtown. So keep this in mind if you have Nov. 1st availalbe. A good cause.

Green Bay roots

October 10th, 2008, 05:04 AM

so i remember seeing an article on WBAY's website back in june that the Grand Union at about 1 million dollars and planned on construction in fall 08 or spring 09. also, the owner of the bellin building also talks on here that he has a proposal for that site. does anyone know what the status is? also, can anyone take pictures of the city deck progress. i realized that it is in the beginning/mobilization status of construction but would appreciate throughout the process some pictures when anyone has time. thanks and lets all hope that this next year is a progressive and an aggressive one. let's not forgot all the progress that has been maid in just a year even though the it can seem as though progress as been at a halt.

Green Bay 4 Life

October 10th, 2008, 03:36 PM

Morse

October 11th, 2008, 04:42 AM

Just came across this on the city of Green Bay website. Looks like a pretty full agenda for Tuesday's meeting. I hope something good comes out of this. Among the points of review are the monthly update of Astor Place and River Center, Paul K.'s wanting to develop Lombardi Avenue with office development (that guy is persistant) review and possible action of T WALL PLANNING OPTION and update and action on the City Deck. Anyone able to go?

http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/mins_agd/

Night Rider

October 11th, 2008, 05:28 PM

I see they put small parking lot in a portion of Astor Place. Let me guess, they will say the financing was going good & then the economy tanked so they had to push it back some more.

hckystr42

October 11th, 2008, 05:43 PM

A small parking lot on the Astor Site? How long do you think until all of Site 1 is turned into a surface lot for access to the City Deck?

Night Rider

October 11th, 2008, 06:10 PM

Nativist

October 11th, 2008, 06:10 PM

Maybe it will be the site of our future bushville (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooverville)!

Puant

October 11th, 2008, 06:32 PM

If the city wouldn't have bought Younkers out of their lease, would the store have continued to have been open for a few more years (i'm guessing no)? What is the worse that could have happened if they let it alone? It's not like they had a developer sitting ready with a sledgehammer on a new project. Obviously we know what the negatives are of buying out the lease...10 + million loss, no store, huge crater in ground, no body paying taxes on the property, attorney fees...etc. I must be missing something! But without all the facts to me it seems like a HUGE blunder. Please fill me in.
Thanks

Bad timing.

Missed opportunities earlier on. It was clear the mall was dying by 1999-2000 yet they tried to hang on, sell to local investors, turn into a mixed use commons, etc...and by then the new Younkers had opened in Ashwaubenon and the writing was on the wall.

Had they cut ties with the mall and Younkers and got the whole thing started in about 2000-2002 I think Astor and the other projects would have gotten off the ground in the ripe market.

I hate to beat this dead horse even more, I'm ready to just move on. There is no way in hell that these local investors will help with the financing for Astor, especially not after this stock market bomb. Lending has tightened up even more now. We might as well not ever mention Astor Place again in this thread. Ever. It's over. Let's move on.

MattGiguere

October 13th, 2008, 05:44 AM

Got a chance to read the Richard Ryman column today in response to the Downtown Green Bay survey. And let me say I appreciated it, it was a nice, positive addition to the hope for downtown. But I just wanted to make one minor critique, not of the article, but rather it's presentation. As I was reading it online I found it rather fitting that right next to the statement '"The thing I keep learning and seeing is Green Bay has the amenities people are talking about. We don't market them well," Weiss said, who, having lived in Madison, has a basis for comparison.' there was an advertisement for downtown Wisconsin Dells. I realize that this is pure coincidence as the ad changes every time the page is refreshed. But, would it hurt to at least include in the article a little snip-it about "Better By The Bay." Again just a minor point, but I felt obligated to point it out.

Danillo

October 14th, 2008, 12:28 AM

If the city wouldn't have bought Younkers out of their lease, would the store have continued to have been open for a few more years (i'm guessing no)?

Well, IIRC, Younker's was locked into a lease on that site for a few more years (the number five comes to mind, but I don't know if that was right at all), so unless they wanted to pay to lease a vacant property, they would have had to operate a store (and if they had left, that would have been worse because the owner could just let it sit vacant and still collect the rent). So the city took control of the building and got Younker's out of the lease to free up the site. This is what the lawsuit has been about all along, the former owners we're suing the city, they were suing Saks in relation to the lease being broken (or something like that). Buying the Boston Store property from Saks so that it could become Baylake Bank was part of this as well.

So, I think the city had the right idea to try to begin working on that failing mall and trying to get something happening. And it's not as though nothing improved as a result, because of the improvement to the Boston Store site and the people that's brought downtown. Where the city screwed up was in taking responsibility for any legal judgments against Saks for leaving their lease at the Younker's site. That makes little sense to me, other than the city allowed themselves to be duped by Saks who knew this would be coming.

I hate to beat this dead horse even more, I'm ready to just move on. There is no way in hell that these local investors will help with the financing for Astor, especially not after this stock market bomb. Lending has tightened up even more now. We might as well not ever mention Astor Place again in this thread. Ever. It's over. Let's move on.

Well, the stock market has no-so-much to do with it. That's more to do with herd mentality than anything. Credit's the real problem, and I think that will begin to improve as the Fed begins to use their new powers (whatever you think of all that) to restore confidence that it's safe to lend. In the same way, the market going up 11% today isn't going to suddenly make credit available either.

But to your larger point, that (improved access to credit) may not come in time to save Astor. Depends on how long the city wants to give Vetter. At this point, I'd be skeptical that any developer's going to be able to finance a project on that site. Obviously, the fact that this didn't get done years ago doesn't inspire confidence that it's suddenly going to happen now (nor does that parking lot!), but we'll see.

Chicagoenvy

October 14th, 2008, 12:46 AM

There are a million things that could be done with the Astor site. The Astor project isn't even that great....the longer this goes on I start to think the building is kinda ugly.

To be so hung up on this is stupid.

It didn't work...fine...move on.

I'd like to see some retial there still...the whole market place concept or whatever it was.....some civic space....some mainstream stores,etc.....you could still do a 3 level glass 'box' of sorts....a mall but not a mall sort of deal and then maybe another 3 levels of apartments or a hotel perhaps.

It could still end up being the tallest structure on the strip there and then really go bonkers on site 4 with the 'signature' tower.

I agree...Astors ship has sailed and we missed it.....but that site need not continue to be a black hole.

Danillo

October 15th, 2008, 03:04 AM

There are a million things that could be done with the Astor site... It didn't work...fine...move on.

I'd like to see some retail there still...the whole market place concept or whatever it was.....some civic space....some mainstream stores,etc.....you could still do a 3 level glass 'box' of sorts....a mall but not a mall sort of deal and then maybe another 3 levels of apartments or a hotel perhaps...

I agree in principle with what you're saying. There's nothing magical about the 17 floors, and while I wouldn't kick Vetter to the curb, at this point I don't see why he shouldn't compete to see what's the best/most viable project for that site. At the same time, I'm curious by what you mean by "mainstream stores." I take it to mean places like what you'd find in any mall (The Gap, etc.). Am I reading you right?

jerkylips999

October 15th, 2008, 05:34 AM

here's something I've been thinking about lately.. Most of the plans/suggestions/ideas that we've seen & heard have centered around one theme--the "signature" building or buildings, should be on the river. The mall site may get some 5-10 story buildings at some point, but in general that area would be smaller scale.

If the tallest buildings downtown are on the river, nothing else downtown will have a view of the river, theoretically (on the east side, at least).

As a long-term plan, would it make more sense to plan some of the larger scale, taller buildings back toward the mall site with something more like 5-7 story buildings along the river? That would seem to preserve the view of the river for more of the downtown area rather than....ahem....blow the wad on the strip right on Washington Street.

Thoughts?

titletown

October 15th, 2008, 05:42 AM

Looks like T Wall got an extension for yet another 2 more months. Also they said on Fox 11 (Uverse ha! ) that the boardwalk will start later this year. I am just wondering if I disappear and get stranded on a deserted island and come back 5 years from now I really will not miss much as far as downtown goes. I just about had it. I have been a member of this site for 3 years now and they are still dilly dallying around. Talk about a non progressive city. :old:

hckystr42

October 15th, 2008, 06:13 AM

I wonder if the City Deck delays have anything to do with Guy Zima's complaints. There was another clip on Fox 11's website from last week that has him being quite upset about this still and trying to have it stopped. The city council is waiting until the next meeting, later this month, to here is reasoning.

I thought whoever it was in this thread that was interested in leasing space from T-Wall said that at least one of the buildings T-wall was proposing was completely leased already and that he was ahead of schedule with everything?

I'm with you though Titletown, this is getting rediculous how nothing is getting accomplish. Yes times are tough, but some of these plans have been in the works for years. Then again I guess this is what we should come to expect. It only took them 3 years to start construction on some retail space in a parking ramp. How long will we have to wait to have a 10+ story building?

Justinsane

October 15th, 2008, 07:23 AM

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=9179384

This story sounds promising....i just hope that it is actually going somewhere...i cant wait for the City Deck to be done...i think it will be a great addition to downtown

Puant

October 15th, 2008, 07:47 AM

OK the street grid is going back into the mall. Those streets, presumably, would be public streets maintained by the city. So why doesn't the city just go in and put the streets through right now? Oh yeah, there's no money. Anyone know how much money it would cost to raze the mall? What if we all chipped in? Some Saturday, let's all gather together whatever sledgehammers, jackhammers, skidsteers, excavators and whatnot that we can rally and let's go take care of it ourselves. It'd be fun, we could all release a lot of pent-up frustration, get some exercise, and bond.

OK I'm being facetious.

But my point is, I still don't understand why we need to wait for one single developer (like T Wall) to come up with a plan to fill that whole mall site at once, or even in phases.. Why just 1 developer?. How many new city blocks would there be again? This old mall is a huge footprint--something like 20 Bellin Buildings would fit here even with streets.

Can we please just dismantle the mall, put the street through, and sell off the new parcels at smaller increments? I don't even care if they're empty parcels for a while, it would be better than the mall and at least we'd be able to drive and of course walk on the new streets between things like the convention center and the rest of downtown, right away. Heck, maybe we could even park on the empty parcels until the smaller developers come along. But, I suppose that's just me being crazy again....whacking the dead old horse.

Green Bay roots

October 15th, 2008, 02:46 PM

it is better to have it all under one developer because there is then one vision, one contact for the ENTIRE site, and only one contract the city has to deal with. right now in omaha nebraska, there is a 4 block radius that is being redeveloped by just one group of 4-5 investors and that have a contract with one general contractor. it is a 250 million dollar redevelopment site and everything is just flying. as fast as they are putting it up, they are getting leasers. i think they had just signed another hotel and the site is only half complete. i don't know why that seems to be going so fast and everything in GB seems to stammer but o well. it happens i guess and most of us have learned to live with it because of the original relics that still live there. anyway the site in omaha is called Midtown crossing. here is the site address: http://www.midtowncrossing.com/index.html

Jschmuck

October 15th, 2008, 04:29 PM

Howdy, i just got back from Texas, Oklahoma, New Jersey, Georgia, and then Indiana. Now lets see if i can contribute - just found this this morning...

hope the link works... http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20081015/GPG0101/810150698/1978

Danillo

October 15th, 2008, 04:38 PM

Did you guys see the renderings they showed on Channel 2 for the mall site???? PUANTS!!!!! Bet you never guess those would have such legs!

Night Rider

October 15th, 2008, 07:41 PM

"City Attorney Allison Swanson said groundbreaking for The CityDeck boardwalk will be within the next two weeks, pending Gov. Jim Doyle's schedule."

Please tell me we are not waiting for him so he can be present for the groundbreaking! I think all the guy does is go around the state and get camera time for money he dishes out.

Authority member Alderman Tom Weber said city taxes are not paying for the project.

"This has no impact whatsoever on our tax levy," he said.

The project is being paid for by state and federal grants, private donations and tax-increment finance district money.

How nice, our city tax levy will remain the same, only our federal & state taxes are affected!

Justinsane

October 15th, 2008, 09:49 PM

when i saw the renderings on WBAY i nearly soiled myself....Puant, maybe you should make a proposal to the city.....something may get going then

honest86

October 16th, 2008, 12:29 AM

When was green bay added to google street view?

Danillo

October 16th, 2008, 12:58 AM

As a long-term plan, would it make more sense to plan some of the larger scale, taller buildings back toward the mall site with something more like 5-7 story buildings along the river? That would seem to preserve the view of the river for more of the downtown area rather than....ahem....blow the wad on the strip right on Washington Street.

Thoughts?

I've thought of this too. I'm not sure. I think that sites 1 and 4 need to be fairly substantial buildings. The properties along the river are the most valuable, and as such the best opportunity to concentrate the greatest value. Also, a river being what it is, once you get up to a certain height is having a river view really that big of a deal? I mean, let's say you are 20 floors up, looking across the river you won't see the river unless your looking straight down, and any views up and down the river won't be affected in the same way by taller buildings along the river. I'm just not sure anything important would be blocked.

At the same time, for the perspective of having an appealing skyline, I don't think you'd want a wall of tall buildings along the river and nothing behind that. Standing on the west side of the river, it would look nicer to have the skyline sort of step back a bit. That said, I think there are many factors in developing the city that are much more important than trying to plan for a nice skyline at this point, and I think these would have to be taken care of to make the land values high enough to support taller buildings away from the river.

I still don't understand why we need to wait for one single developer (like T Wall) to come up with a plan to fill that whole mall site at once, or even in phases.. Why just 1 developer?.... Can we please just dismantle the mall, put the street through, and sell off the new parcels at smaller increments?

I couldn't agree more. Problem is, this would cost money. Personally I believe that cities should invest in future growth, and the city is going to pay to take the mall down whether it's upfront or through TIF dollars to a developer (the difference is that the TIF way secures development first and as such is less risky). But the reality is that the city council is still fighting over whether or not to go ahead with the CityDeck even though it's not placing any burden on the property tax payers!

I have no doubt that the best thing would be to do as you say, not only because it would make for smaller sites and less tricky development which should get things going sooner, but also because I believe the final product would be more diverse, sustainable, urban, and just plain better. The reality is that this city just won't spend money to do that. There are a lot of great things about Green Bay that make it a great area to live, but this ain't one of them.

Please tell me we are not waiting for him so he can be present for the groundbreaking!

Well, it looked to me last weekend like they had already started with the CityDeck. Not actual construction, but the area is fenced off and the portion of the trail in front of Nicolet Bank had been torn out. So I think they are already working to get the site ready, and that the groundbreaking ceremony is just a formality.

Puant

October 16th, 2008, 03:16 AM

Did you guys see the renderings they showed on Channel 2 for the mall site???? PUANTS!!!!! Bet you never guess those would have such legs!

Shoot, I didn't even know that my old web site (http://home.new.rr.com/visualizeit/downtown_GB.html) was still up & running. It was fun to think about, but not realistic. I don't even agree with the concept anymore myself, even with the 3-4 parcels I left to be developed at smaller increments.

When was green bay added to google street view?

Just recently, maybe a month or two ago.

I couldn't agree more. Problem is, this would cost money. Personally I believe that cities should invest in future growth, and the city is going to pay to take the mall down whether it's upfront or through TIF dollars to a developer (the difference is that the TIF way secures development first and as such is less risky). But the reality is that the city council is still fighting over whether or not to go ahead with the CityDeck even though it's not placing any burden on the property tax payers!

I have no doubt that the best thing would be to do as you say, not only because it would make for smaller sites and less tricky development which should get things going sooner, but also because I believe the final product would be more diverse, sustainable, urban, and just plain better. The reality is that this city just won't spend money to do that. There are a lot of great things about Green Bay that make it a great area to live, but this ain't one of them.
.

Again, I'm sure we'd all chip in to take the mall down. We all have pent up frustration over that thing and the whole downtown. WE could probably smash that thing down in a matter of days. I'll bring the explosives & beer.

But seriously...

Well all right, the alternative is to sit and wait. Wait for what? For a single developer to come along with the perfect plan and all the financing in the world? If this is the approach, we're going to be looking at this empty old mall for many years to come.

It's not even that this old mall is bad to look at (though I'd say the old dumpster loading area along N Adams and the 'wall of plywood' along Washington Ave are hideous). What's worse, the dead mall as a barrier dividing key places on Main St like the Convention Center, Hotel Sierra, Regency from the rest of the downtown prevents other key activities and connections from taking place. THis to me is even more unacceptable than the hideousness.

Put the streets in. If some smaller developments fill in the site they'll start actually start generating a little bit of tax revenue and vitality to the site. This and maybe a little bit of revenue from the temporary parking lots (as much as I hate parking lots) might recoup some of the money invested on the new street grid.

Danillo

October 17th, 2008, 12:46 AM

Well all right, the alternative is to sit and wait. Wait for what? For a single developer to come along with the perfect plan and all the financing in the world? If this is the approach, we're going to be looking at this empty old mall for many years to come.

Look, you may think they should take down the mall, and I may think they should take down the mall, but they ain't gonna take down the mall unless there's a developer ready to fill the space back in, or at least enough of it to offset the cost of the mall's removal. I don't like it any more that you do, and I think it's hurting city finances in the long term, and hurting growth in the short and long term, but it just is.

The only possible alternative I could see, and it would have to be in a better economy because they aren't going to spend 2 cents to take the mall down right now, would be if they had all the plans set and parceled out the land, but didn't actually take the mall down until a Nicolet Bank sized development came along. The mall at its end was, I believe, valued at about $4 million. Now it is valued at zero. Nicolet Bank is a $12 million building. So the tax from a $12 million property isn't, I don't think, going to pay to have the mall taken down and the roads put through, but in the right climate I can conceive of Green Bay being willing to pay to clear the site if a building of that value was certain to follow. And really, a building of that size would leave a lot of the site left.

Now, there's some chance that through the phased idea of what T Wall would theoretically do, that something like what I've described will be exactly what does happen.

gbmphillips

October 17th, 2008, 01:49 AM

When was green bay added to google street view?

Its been up there since early summer

Green Bay roots

October 17th, 2008, 02:18 AM

i see on for the city council that Guy Zima is at it one last time to get rid of anything that will be considered a nicety for the greater area to enjoy

Request by Ald. Zima that the Common Council of Green Bay order the abandonment of the plan to spend up to $12 million on the boardwalk riverfront project and to direct the Mayor’s Office to use its energies and staff to find money in the community to protect basic services and avoid reduction in staff that provide those services.

Morse

October 17th, 2008, 04:15 AM

That guy is such a tool:ohno:

Anyways, this will be a good thing.

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=9191763

Night Rider

October 17th, 2008, 11:16 PM

That guy is such a tool:ohno:

I probably agree with what Guy does about 10% of the time, but he has spoke up on a few issues that IMHO took some guts. There is nothing worse then a bunch of Mayor bobble heads that don't question a thing. I think he offers a balance that is needed. Guy by himself doesn't cause much harm & I think deserves a little credit. I would rather have Guy be my alderman then the one I got! If nothing else he is entertaining.

I don't agree with his stance on the boardwalk.

Puant

October 18th, 2008, 03:39 AM

I'm glad the K&K site will be used to build the coast guard boats. Will the boats be completed in the Green Bay facility? Will they sail them out through the port, or at 45 feet will they truck them?

Here's what I think they will look like:

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/coastguardboattobebuiltinGreenBay.jpg

Zima
I read somewhere that when Guy was first on the city council, he fought hard to keep the mall from being built downtown. I sure wish he'd have gotten his way on that one!!

gbmphillips

October 18th, 2008, 05:02 AM

That guy is such a tool:ohno:

Anyways, this will be a good thing.

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=9191763

Say what you want about him but he opposed the mall way back when and guess what he was RIGHT it did destroy downtown. Thank goodness we have someone like guy that just does not rubber stamp every dumb idea that comes along from these pinheads at city hall.

Just like this Vetter nimrod who apprantly has the city and a few others down there wrapped around his finger, one more extenions followed by one more extension followed by one more extension and on and on. Admit it he can't do what he says and the mayor and a few others can't admit he was a mistake.

Night Rider

October 18th, 2008, 06:27 AM

Just like this Vetter nimrod

Vetter has done some good things & maybe went a little overboard with two many projects at once. I am still hoping something magical happens & his projects all come together. I'm not holding my breath. I really hate to come down on any developer that is interested in downtown. If the Mayor lets a developer get away with to much, you can't blame the developer for asking. He has two projects completed, so he is not just blowing smoke.

I agree gbmphillips, we have to at some point set a deadline & stick to it and enough with the never ending extensions. If he needs up to six months, fine, but at the end if nothing has happened, move on or pay a penalty for more time!

I hadn't really been to Appleton downtown (if that's what you call it) until yesterday. A buddy has a apartment in a old mill type building. I only saw a little of the downtown area, but was impressed with what I saw.

It's almost embarrassing to refer to Green Bay as having a downtown after seeing other cities & what they have. We have to come up with a new name for our downtown.

Nativist

October 18th, 2008, 06:48 PM

Night Rider

October 18th, 2008, 08:31 PM

Night Rider, what was Vetter's second project?

Maybe I'm wrong, I thought he did or was involved with both the Flats on the Fox and River Front lofts.

mgk920

October 18th, 2008, 09:00 PM

Vetter has done some good things & maybe went a little overboard with two many projects at once. I am still hoping something magical happens & his projects all come together. I'm not holding my breath. I really hate to come down on any developer that is interested in downtown. If the Mayor lets a developer get away with to much, you can't blame the developer for asking. He has two projects completed, so he is not just blowing smoke.

I agree gbmphillips, we have to at some point set a deadline & stick to it and enough with the never ending extensions. If he needs up to six months, fine, but at the end if nothing has happened, move on or pay a penalty for more time!

I hadn't really been to Appleton downtown (if that's what you call it) until yesterday. A buddy has a apartment in a old mill type building. I only saw a little of the downtown area, but was impressed with what I saw.

It's almost embarrassing to refer to Green Bay as having a downtown after seeing other cities & what they have. We have to come up with a new name for our downtown.
I jive just above the hill from the Fox River Mills complex (Old Third Ward neighborhood) and actively chose to live in the Downtown Appleton area - walking distance to so much - especially when compared to the surrounding townships.

:cheers1:

Mike

Puant

October 18th, 2008, 10:37 PM

Oshkosh downtown feels a bit decrepit in that they haven't had much NEW stuff built lately (there isn't a good enough mix of quality new to go along with the quality old); many of the old parts of downtown Oshkosh are cool to me. Such unique architecture, it must have been so fantastic back when all those buildings were built in the late 1800s-early 1900s.

Many of the Oshkosh buildings were designed by a one-of-a-kind local architect named William Waters (http://www.ci.oshkosh.wi.us/landmarks_commission/William_Waters.htm); this guy gained a good bit of fame from his interesting designs.

Oh and also Oshkosh has a good sized university downtown; as does Appleton..

Nativist

October 18th, 2008, 11:29 PM

Flats on the Fox! How can I forget? I wonder if that one would have happened if Vetter had had to come up with the financing on his own...

Puant

October 19th, 2008, 02:30 AM

I've been in Boston and away from the internet for 4 days, sounds like I could have predicted what happened at the RDA meeting: more extensions, more lack of resolve. Boston was nice, I hadn't been there for 9 years (I lived there for almost two years in the late 90s). It's a city where urban spaces are VERY well used.

1. Spent most of Wednesday morning in the North End, which is Boston's old Italian neighborhood. It's all older 3-4 story residential buildings, many with retail on the ground floor (depending on the street). The streets were narrow, and almost impassable (mostly planned in the early 17th century) when delivery trucks were dropping off food and supplies at the many restaurants. It was awesome, and dare I suggest that it be a model for the mall site (except we can run the delivery trucks through mid-block alleys).

2. Why is the city so afraid of loitering? Isn't this the point? Don't we want people to enjoy hanging out and spending time in downtown Green Bay? Boston is full of public infrastructure where people can sit, read, take naps, eat, talk, use wi-fi, etc. The problem isn't loitering, it's encouraging more people to loiter. The city also needs to get over its fear of homeless, teenagers, and minorities.

3. I love the close proximity of shopping/business to parks. It's very cool when you can seamlessly go from a shopping street to a very serene park just by crossing the street.

4. People love people watching. Somehow we need to reach a tipping point where there are enough people around to bring in people who subconsciously just want to be around people. The Quincy Market/Faneuil Hall area is great for this.

5. Why doesn't the frequency of Green Bay buses increase during peak times? What if the buses ran 4 times per hour instead of 2 times between, say 6 am - 9 am and 3 pm and 6 pm?

I have more notes someplace...

Night Rider, what was Vetter's second project?

Nativist, replies to your post:

1. What? Just how the hell are you supposed to back a bunch of semi trailers up to the loading docks? It's all about volume, my friend. The street frontage needs to be predominantly loading docks. Oh, and some dumpsters too. All of the crap we throw away can't just go into a little pickup truck; we need to have the horizontal clearances to pull up a giant Waste Management super truck and the vertical clearances for the forklift to lift the and empty dumpsters. Get real, man.

2. Someone napping on a park bench?? In this town, that's grounds for immediate jailing. These people are contributing NOTHING to society, they're suckling at the trough of our blue socialist state. Why aren't these people busy producing profits? Instead of sleeping on the park bench, they should be using all of their time pillaging the environment to extract wealth or else selling some uneccessary crap to some gullible consumers!!

3. Sheesh. Next you'll expect people to want to LIVE next to noisy commercial areas and all the bums in the parks! What we need are some large fences and gates to keep the riff raff away from the productive members of society!!

4. People watching? People should be way too busy producing profit to waste any time watching people. What would I have to learn from the sleazebag bohemian types that hang around downtown? Not like the riff raff in the downtown has any mony to actually buy anything, therefore they're worthless human beings.

............OK I'm tired of being sarcastic. I actually agree with what Nativist has to say......Good post, Nativist.

Night Rider

October 19th, 2008, 06:39 PM

The problem isn't loitering, it's encouraging more people to loiter. The city also needs to get over its fear of homeless, teenagers, and minorities.

I don't really see people fearing the homeless and teenagers much. It might be more of a unable to tolerate thing. People want to sit along the river and not have to worry about a guy drinking from a paper bag, then walking over the the nearest shrub and relieving himself. People want to take their family to the city deck and not have to have a bunch of teenagers yelling F-bombs. If this behavior is part of the loitering you talk about, the city will continue to have problems. Obviously the city can't eliminate drunks & teenagers, but they need to "encourage" respectable behavior to a certain extent.

I encourage you to go to East high at the corner of Baird & Walnut and just observe these teenagers. During the summer & probably continuing during the school year there are roving groups of them that jump in front of cars, yell at passing motorist & have no respect for anyone including their parents.

I can't really blame people for fearing these groups. I wouldn't even call it a irrational fear. These are things that happen all the time if you live in that area. Get rid of the problem & people will come out of their houses.

Nativist, I'm not trying to pick you apart, you have some good points. I hope more then anyone that the city deck/downtown area is a hot spot for loitering. I just hope it's a place where I can continue to bring my family. See you there!

Nativist

October 19th, 2008, 07:10 PM

The things you're talking about are illegal behaviors: public drunkenness, disorderly conduct, public urination, etc. I would expect that the city would crack down on that kind of thing. Whenever I've had to call the cops about this kind of thing (which I've had to do many times as both a former downtown resident and as someone who works downtown) they've been very responsive.

The attitude that I'm concerned with is resistance among those who make policy to creating a comfortable streetscape because they are afraid of the possibility of inappropriate loitering. And this is an attitude that I've heard expressed at more than one public meeting in the past two weeks. Everyone needs to be given the benefit of the doubt, and the police need to enforce the law.

Chicagoenvy

October 21st, 2008, 03:16 AM

I agree in principle with what you're saying. There's nothing magical about the 17 floors, and while I wouldn't kick Vetter to the curb, at this point I don't see why he shouldn't compete to see what's the best/most viable project for that site. At the same time, I'm curious by what you mean by "mainstream stores." I take it to mean places like what you'd find in any mall (The Gap, etc.). Am I reading you right?

Exactly. I mean,it's like this.....if you walk down broadway you see local shops. There is no ATT,Radioshack,Lids,Hot Topic,Spencers,Gamestop,Lane Bryant,Foot Locker,etc,etc.

I like Broadway and I've been in several of those shops and they serve a purpose and have value but other than exclusive company around the corner I've never purchased anything at any of those places.

I am wanting to see a better 'mix' of 'local,home grown' retail with 'mainstream/national' retail. I think you need both. I also think that if those homegrown shops are going to continue to close up early and not be open on weekends then you need stores to offer services and products later into the day than 6pm.

I live downtown. I use ATT for my phone. I would love to be able to walk over to the river strip and pay my bill. I used to live in Ashwaubenon and I hated it but....

thats where ATT is. Thats where Best Buy is. Thats where everything is.

What's the point of encouraging somebody like me to move downtown if all of the shops and services I need are still in Ashwaubenon?

I don't want another mall per se but at the same time putting in some national retail doesn't have to = 'mall'.

You walk through downtown Milwaukee and you see a Dunkin Donuts next to Auntie Smiths cafe...you'll see Bob's TV repair next to a Radio Shack. You'll see a Verizon next to Jim's Wireless. See my point? Local and national live side by side. But not in downtown Green Bay. And it hurts.

It's 7:30 on a Saturday night. I'm getting ready to take a walk on the trail when I realize my earbuds are broken. Dang,I really like to have my ipod on my walks.

Ok..well....the radioshack at rivercenter is open til 9...I'll hop in there before I hit the trail.

But no.....in my example I have to get in the car and drive to Best Buy or WalMart. In my case I can't even take the bus to BayPark cuz they quit running at 5. This means using gas and time to drive and by the time I get back home it's 8:15 and I probably don't much feel like taking that walk.

This defeats the purppose of everything we are trying to accomplish as far as making dowtown a complete ecosystem of where we can work,live,shop,eat,play and enjoy life.

I'm not saying they should bring Best Buy and the like downtown but there is room for 6-10 store fronts offering a mix of what I mentioned above.

I don't want the river strip to become a baby Oneida but at the same time I have to wonder why I moved downtown if I'm still having to drive to Ash. everytime I need or want something.

Jschmuck

October 21st, 2008, 04:47 AM

^^ Thats where if we had a nice streetcar/trolley (rail kind) connecting stuff like KENOSHA, Green Bay would work. A streetcar system connecting DT to the retail Area in Ashwaubenon would work perfectly, passing thru the residential on the west side. Then Chicagoenvy you/we/us/them would NOT have to drive.

I cant wait for Kenosha to become WI 3rd largest city.

just for fun; Developers propose an addition to the Packers Hall of Fame. One of the developers said, "I think an addition which would revolve completely around Brett Favre would be beneficial to the Hall of Fame, but instead of Fame, it would be the Hall of Shame." The developer also said that "The attraction would show guests all of the post-Packer conflicts that Brett has been caught creating, such as calling up other NFL teams and revealing vital info about the Packers before a game is played. "Above the words 'Hall of Shame,' the initials B.F would be seen, in which they would mean "Brett Favre," however some believe they would mean Backstabber Forever."

Puant

October 21st, 2008, 05:02 AM

Thanks for the perspective. I hear ya. My own experience in living downtown Green Bay was similiar. The lack of grocery store really bothered me. Correct me if I'm wrong--but a lot of the shops on Broadway have most customers driving in from the outskirts and beyond.

I had sort of similiar experiences living in other downtowns as well, though. WHen I lived in downtown Madison I could walk to Pinkus & McBride for groceries, for example, but of course the prices were higher and so for my large "weekly" grocery shop I still drove farther out to a larger store. In a pinch, I could get smaller needed items downtown but had to be ready to pay a little extra for them. Although there were cooler record stores and such downtown, I still drove out to Best Buy and stuff like that occassionially.

I guess I balanced these inconveniences with the convenience of being close to other stuff--work, trails, people, the river, entertainment, cultural places like the library & museum--interesting stuff that made it at least somewhat enjoyable to live downtown.

To be optimistic, it does seem that some of the "national" stores are starting to scale down or retool business models a bit to be able to fit more readily into an existing building/urban environment. Barnes & NOble for example.

Not all are doing this though--I can't imagine Best BUy moving downtown. But I'd rather see a smaller electronics store anyway. I'm always a little surpised when I see a Radio Shack and some of these cell phone stores opening up in some little strip mall in the middle of nowhere, yet they eschew downtown were there are gobs more people, at least during the day.

I would think you could get earbuds at The Exclusive Company?

IN the end I guess this is why you are an "urban pioneer" living in the "hinterlands", the center of the city where a pulse is barely discernable compared to the past.

I ramble.

Danillo

October 21st, 2008, 04:56 PM

I am wanting to see a better 'mix' of 'local,home grown' retail with 'mainstream/national' retail. I think you need both. I also think that if those homegrown shops are going to continue to close up early and not be open on weekends then you need stores to offer services and products later into the day than 6pm.

First off, I totally agree about the hours the many shops are open. There are stores that I'd be curious to go to but can't because they aren't usually open when I can get to them.

As for the types of stores (national versus local), I think the reality is that national stores aren't going to be downtown right now. A) There aren't enough people, and B) the demographics of the area aren't right for a number of the types of stores people want. Look, there are some urbanists who will argue that chain store are undesirable in a downtown. I'm not one of those people, but wishing they'd come won't make them come. Ashwaubenon is a better place for them to do business than downtown Green Bay, it just is. The key is to work on getting more people living downtown, more people working downtown, support for the existing local businesses downtown. These are things we can control, and if we do them right, then national chains will begin to see the downtown as a place they'd like to be.

As for the idea of a mall, I think the best place for that will be on the old mall site, on street level. It should be an opportunity to have a number of retail spaces and to keep all that activity out on the street where it should be in a downtown.

And finally, regarding groceries. There's Save-a-Lot and there's Streu's. Neither are perfect, but both provide opportunity to pick up items fairly close to the downtown, certainly within bike range. For large shopping, I think we're a long way from having a major grocery store downtown, and for trips where more than one or two bags are purchased, you need a car anyway.

Green Bay Sponge

October 22nd, 2008, 08:02 AM

There's Save-a-Lot and there's Streu's. Neither are perfect, but both provide opportunity to pick up items fairly close to the downtown, certainly within bike range. For large shopping, I think we're a long way from having a major grocery store downtown, and for trips where more than one or two bags are purchased, you need a car anyway.

There's also Shopko Express, but that opens next month.

Danillo

October 22nd, 2008, 11:37 PM

^^ Yes, very true, that will be an excellent addition.

Morse

October 22nd, 2008, 11:55 PM

Friday at 12:45:banana:

sr22ger

October 23rd, 2008, 05:43 AM

Friday at 12:45:banana:

There is definitely ground movement already in front of the Astor Place site! As something that I will be able to use daily, I'm pretty excited about it.

Green Bay Sponge

October 23rd, 2008, 08:18 AM

It is great to see a few of these projects gain momentum in tough times. I really hope to see Port Plaza/Washington Commons come tumbling to the ground (not just the skyway connecting Younkers), so that future developments can take place on that site. But, first, we need to see some more momentum on the river front. The condos are a nice touch. We could use more local businesses like flower shops, toy stores, restaurants, video rental stores, etc., and maybe they could slip in a McDonald's or Burger King franchise in there for good measure. There are still a few dead spots on Adams St. by the cul-de-sac, the Associated Bank, and the Republic Chophouse that could be filled in the not-so-distant future.

Night Rider

October 23rd, 2008, 12:13 PM

Here is what happens at Vicenzi's around 2AM....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohWPU9kql8E

Green Bay Sponge

October 23rd, 2008, 01:54 PM

Here is what happens at Vicenzi's around 2AM....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohWPU9kql8E

Looks like our crime rate is on the rise.

The cops are going to be out in full force.

"Whatcha gonna do when they come for you?"

I wouldn't expect this to happen at night in our fair city, but it does happen.

Green Bay roots

October 23rd, 2008, 09:31 PM

everyone here is so nit picky on every little thing that happens. i live in Omaha nebraska right now and it is said to be one of the nicest city's to live. i guess anyway. but aside from that, there are shootings on the news every night. and it's not just the minorities. last january, a 18 year old white teenager shot and killed a teenage black girl in a drive through after the packers lost the NFC championship game because he was pissed they had lost. anyone can find the faults or the negatives in the city. Why don't you guys at least try to find the good. i look at downtown and say, "Even though the downtown takes a little longer to get going then most developments, at least it is increasing getting better every year." it's not the large developments that make a city prosper, it's the little things. the bigger developments will come down the road.

what was shown in that video is something that happens in downtown's all across the country every night of the week. that was just assault. somewhere else, like here in omaha, there would have been a gun or at the very least a knife.

so get back on track with welcoming developments and welcome to the ideas brought to the table and enjoy everything that is happening. if nothing happens, then we are exactly where we started but if even the smallest thing happens like a new restaurant opening then embrace it.

i saw all the negative feedback from everyone here about the Republic Chophouse when in all actuality everyone should have been congratulating the owners and wishing them a phenomenal start and not saying, "$40 for a steak, that place won't last more than a month or two."

i really hope you guys have more positive comments to make because i really enjoy reading all the news on this thread but i am this close to deleting the bookmark i have because of all the negative posts in the last few months.

sorry for my rant but it HAD to be said

MattGiguere

October 23rd, 2008, 10:58 PM

i saw all the negative feedback from everyone here about the Republic Chophouse when in all actuality everyone should have been congratulating the owners and wishing them a phenomenal start and not saying, "$40 for a steak, that place won't last more than a month or two."

I can't agree more, roots. The majority of restaurants that fail, fail because of a consumers perception of the restaurant. There's a saying in the industry that nine good reviews can do a company good, but one bad review can shutter it's doors. A restaurant should be based by it's "moments of truth," or service experience, not it's price tag. And if we want to promote our restaurants downtown the best thing we can do is spread the word about the service we received there to increase the amount of customers at the restaurant.

Now, I've been told over and over that news isn't news unless it's news. A reporter from Fox News even said, while waiting in closed session of an RDA a meeting, it isn't news unless someone dies. It is my belief that, when posting to this thread, we must consider that there may be a new viewer taking a look at this site for the first time. And if they see the negativity on this thread, there only option is to think the same. On the other hand, if they see the positive things we have to say, then they will appreciate the downtown.

Night Rider

October 24th, 2008, 12:33 AM

i really hope you guys have more positive comments to make because i really enjoy reading all the news on this thread but i am this close to deleting the bookmark i have because of all the negative posts in the last few months.

I see it as a healthy mix of positive & negative comments. I saw quite a few comments about how good of a restaurant the Republic is. My impression from this board is it's a GREAT place to eat, but be prepared to pay. I think that's a good review.

I really doubt a developer is going to read this board and pull out of a project. If this board becomes another cheerleading forum for the Mayor, forget it. Having a forum where people can honestly discuss what they think makes it interesting.

A lot of people don't like reality, you can bury your head in the sand, but the problem is still there. Just because there are ongoing problems at Vicenzi's, I hope we just don't come to the point and say it's expected & we should be thankful that the guy didn't have a gun. I would hope our attitude is that downtown should not tolerate this behavior at any time of the day...and if a bar or bars are responsible for bringing in this activity, it should be SHUT DOWN!

Plus, if we have to wait and only comment on positive developements downtown, there will be very limited activity on this forum.

I can't wait for the day when I can complain that the dang skyscaper is way too high. Or there is way to much developement going on, we should slow things down.

Just my take.

Green Bay roots

October 24th, 2008, 01:41 AM

i am not saying we should expect that activity but realize that it will be present. most of the people in the forum want a bigger, taller downtown with more people. so what do you think you might get when you have that? more people from different backgrounds. unless you want to be like all the other conservatives in Green Bay and just have the same restaurant, bar, store on every corner with the same type of people then you have to expect diverse crowds.

i think that is Green Bay's BIG problem. if we are to do anything, it has to be the same thing that is on the corner down the street because that is what has worked before so why not again. God forbid we take a chance and try something different. that might really screw up the city, right?

just because a place has this diverse crowd and is bringing different people to the area doesn't mean that's it and shut'em down. all that needs to be down is for the city needs to work with the business and try to overcome the problem if it is a re-occuring event. clubs and venues, like vicenzi's are all over the country why can they work there and not in Green Bay. because Green Bay doesn't want a challenge nor to give a chance on something different. The city should make these places hirer their own security crews and not have to rely on the city police department. that is what has to happen all over the country and that is why they work there and not in Green Bay.

Now i am all for a good mix of positive and negative feedback on this thread but lately there has been a lot. like on Astor Place Condos. people on here are getting frustrated with it and are now making commits like, "the more i look at it, the uglier it is getting" that isn't needed. there is a difference between negative feedback and positive negative feedback. i love hearing peoples take on a new proposal or ideas but when everyone is crying about getting some development and then a place like Flats on the Fox finally gets built, half this thread could then do nothing more then bash the development. if nothing had happened yet on that site you guys would just complain about that too. so the downtown for most of you is a loss loss. it can't win if there is development nor when there isn't.

This is why Green Bay doesn't get a lot of interest for development. Everyone in that city is critical of everything and everyone that is in that city. all of you need to be a lot more open. i believe it goes, Think outside the box!!

Jschmuck

October 24th, 2008, 04:36 AM

^^ Yea for the most part i agree with you Green Bay roots...There is a lot of pessimism in this area whether its on this forum or in the comments section of the Press Gazette and Post Crescent, there is a lot of pessimism...I do however want to single out Astor Place and compare that to River Heath in Appleton; Astor Place has been on the drawing board for years now and hasn't broken ground, whereas River Heath has been on the drawing board for what, half a year and is expected to break ground within a couple weeks. And yes GB NEEDS to be AMBITIOUS, there is TOO much hesitation up here, and part of my philosophy is, you gotta spend money to make money.

off topic; Green Bay roots, may i ask who you work for? cause my bro knows someone livin in omaha from GB, just checking to see just how small this world really is...

Green Bay roots

October 24th, 2008, 04:40 AM

just judging by your name, "Jschmuck"...is your Bro...Jim Muckey?

Jschmuck

October 24th, 2008, 05:14 AM

Jim Muckey? nope, keep guessin. his first name is eric tho

sr22ger

October 24th, 2008, 06:21 AM

The pessimism is at an all time high on this board, and the worst part...it isn't gbm spreading it. We don't need a youtube link of some dude fighting outside of a bar. Nor a comment about crime rising based on a youtube video that could have been made in the smallest town in the country.

Bartles53

October 24th, 2008, 09:17 AM

Since when did a Tasing become such a somber event? Have we soured on it since after the "don't Tase me bro" guy got all of that publicity? That Vicenzi's clip was kinda hilarious. Of course, maybe I haven't matured to my 31 years on this planet. But Tasers aren't supposed to knock a person out. Normally they elicit the opposite reaction. The plunge he took was beautiful. I give it two thumbs up, Michael Knight.

Great news on the boardwalk, by the way. The eyesore retaining wall has got to go.

Night Rider

October 24th, 2008, 12:35 PM

... then you have to expect diverse crowds. ......

just because a place has this diverse crowd and is bringing different people to the area doesn't mean that's it and shut'em down.

I understand what you are saying. I simply pointed out a video of a downtown event. If you look at any of my posts I never made any comment remotely referring to a minority group. I only refer to behavior. If it was a white guy getting blasted by a taser, I would have gladly posted the same you tube video link. And if the same club would repeatedly bring in that activity I would want the club closed. I really hate it when someone can't make a comment and right away it's gets twisted it into a racial thing. Then you rant against being conservative, because everyone knows that conservatives hate minorities, right?

I guess I should have known better then to bring a little entertainment to this forum. Next time I'll put a warning next to the link.

On another note....Yeahhhh...City deck is coming!!!

Green Bay roots

October 24th, 2008, 01:31 PM

i didn't know diverse crowds meant minorities. just because someone is different to you doesn't mean different race. all it means someone with different backgrounds, morals and values. i couldn't tell the man's race in the video. all i saw was a fro and i know a few white guys that have had fro's back growing up. i would make the same comment if her were black, tan, blue, white, yellow, or orange.

you also referred to conservatives hating minorities but all i commented on was the people in green bay wanting but not wanting change. they want something to happen but it better be like the building done the street otherwise it is a horrible idea.

anyway...i think we are done with this conversation. congrats on the city deck having a ground breaking ceremony finally. i know the contracts for the work has been awarded for a couple months now so this is just one more milestone taht can be checked off. hopefully the weather cooperates so that they can perform the work longer in the winter and not as much over the summer even though therestill two more phases to this project

jerkylips999

October 24th, 2008, 05:17 PM

This discussion is getting far too political, & seems about to take an ugly turn.

Can we get back to development discussion?

I know we've had many discussions about why the mall should be torn down & why it probably won't.

But how about this? What would it take to convince the city to take it down? What could be done to make an argument for getting the clean slate & letting multiple, smaller scale developers have a whack at portions of it?

Also, there was discussion this summer about the building of a new federal courthouse, & a good chance it would end up somewhere on the mall site. Anyone hear more info on that?

gbmphillips

October 24th, 2008, 08:15 PM

Today the break ground for the city deck (still a lame name) but what I had to laugh at was da mayor saying the project will bring $90,000,000 in new construction value over the next three years! Who in the hell does he think is going to swallow that bs! His buddy Vetter has failed in almost everything he has promised down there, all he has accomplished is building two rather ugly buildings.

I guess he has been so busy trying to decide what we should have for Christmas displays that he has not noticed that there is a SMALL problem with the economy.

$90,000,000? That is hysterical!

Night Rider

October 24th, 2008, 08:27 PM

This discussion is getting far too political, & seems about to take an ugly turn.

I agree 100%

Today the break ground for the city deck (still a lame name) but what I had to laugh at was da mayor saying the project will bring $90,000,000 in new construction value over the next three years!

I hope he's right. In three years no one will remember this statement he made, so why not make it. That's what politicians do! (<-that statement should not be interpreted as an attempt to get political) :)

Nativist

October 25th, 2008, 12:40 AM

people on here are getting frustrated with it and are now making commits like, "the more i look at it, the uglier it is getting" that isn't needed.

I think this might be a reference to something I said about Flats on the Fox, so I thought I'd address this. I admit that I have experienced something along the lines of a burst of my optimism about the Vetter river projects. I was concerned about that building when I saw the initial renderings, but refrained from allowing myself to see it for what it was because I was just so incredibly hopeful that everything would work out. Now I'm being a little more honest with myself about what's happening and I can finally say it: it's a mediocre building. I am glad that it was built however. Our downtown needs affordable places to live as part of the mix and I am happy to see it. My understanding is that they're getting a lot of interest in the apartments so I'm prepared to say that it's a success.

If you go through the pages of this thread, you'll see that I've been till recently unflaggingly boosterish. If I'm being critical at this point, it's because I believe that mistakes have been made and need to be rectified. I believe that John Vetter meant well, but that he's become something of a tragic figure in the sense that his intentions are being undermined by defects in his character. The lesson is that we shouldn't put all of the eggs in one basket.

I don't think that I've become negative for the sake of being negative. I still have the highest hopes for the future of downtown Green Bay and recently this forum has become a place where we can hopefully separate what works from what doesn't work. What I'll call "super developments" have not worked. That's become very clear over the course of this Summer and Fall. If there's more negativity here now than there was last year, it's a legitimate reflection of the situation.

Just out of curiosity, and without revealing your identities (unless you want to), how many of you have a financial interest in the success of the downtown? Personally, I'm 'all in,' so to speak. Any criticisms that I make are meant to be constructive.

Nativist

October 25th, 2008, 12:42 AM

Now that I have that off of my chest... I can't even begin to tell you how glad that I am that the City Deck finally broke ground! $90,000,000? I don't think that's crazy, but I do think that the city needs to make an ultimatum.

Green Bay roots

October 25th, 2008, 03:11 AM

Nativist....if it seemed that i attacked you, i really didn't mean to. that was just something that stuck in my head only for some reason i thought soemone had said something like that about the astor place condos after another extension had been granted. AAnnnnnyyywayyyyy......

i agree with you on the 90 mil not being that far off. think of the projects...

Astor Place Condos....30-35 mil
River Center.....20-25 mil (or something like that)
Cherry Street Ramp retail...(5 mil maybe)
and then the mall site development

really not to far out there for 90 mil when you break it down like that.

Puant

October 25th, 2008, 03:22 AM

The lesson is that we shouldn't put all of the eggs in one basket.

What I'll call "super developments" have not worked.

Just out of curiosity, and without revealing your identities (unless you want to), how many of you have a financial interest in the success of the downtown? Personally, I'm 'all in,' so to speak. Any criticisms that I make are meant to be constructive.

Today I was walking through downtown thinking about the age of each building I was looking at. One was built in the 1880s. The one next door was built in the 1920s. Another one in the 1930s. Next door to that was one built in the 1970s. Etc.

What's my point?

Why do we 21st Century Americans expect everything to be done as huge-ass projects all at once? As Nativist says, the "Super Developments" are not so super at all. In fact they don't work anymore. That is quickly becoming an old paradigm.

The places we all have come to love and admire and wish to be were typically developed organically over the course of DECADES. Let them be built incrementally, at a smaller scale. This type of development so much easier to do and produces a much better product, especially over the long term.

It's what we need to do with the mall site, and even the river front. There is really no question: it has to be smaller scale developments. Coordinated? Sure, to some degree. But at smaller scale; not just one developer. We have a city government that should be able to take on whatever coordination needs to be done. Why in the world would we leave the entire coordination up to one developer for say, the entire mall site or the entire riverfront? Even if it "worked" in other cities or in other projects of the past 10-20 years, it probably won't work the same way anymore. Lets face reality: development & financial systems and models are changing before our eyes. These old models of development that we have somehow grown accustomed to won't be viable going into the future. These systems are are crumbling all around us. Time to move back to more traditional ways of development. That means smaller scale, organic, more varied interests & investments. I'm totally happy with this.

Negativity, Tasers, and miscellany:
Personally I thought that YouTube video was pretty funny. I liked how they slowed it down and such. That guy clearly needed to be tasered.

Does that sort of event say anything about the quality of our downtown? No not at all. As others have said, this sort of shit happens everywhere across the nation, particularlyi after midnight when people have been drinking.

I work downtown and the scene during the day is so completely different. The bankers and lawyers who are downtown during the day never get tazered as far as I know (though there may be a few I'd like to!). But this again is what I like about the downtown: It's always changing. It's got one sort of "vibe" one part of the day but becomes an entirely different scene at other times.

I don't think I'm being overly negative in my latest posts. I do however try to carefully consider actual events and interpret them as I see 'em. I'm optimistic when it makes sense to be optimistic but at other times I'm more realistic. Right now we've got to be realistic. We can't be spouting out too much crap, like prediciting $90 million in development in the next few years. Longer term, might we see that? Sure. But not in the next few years. C'mon now.

sr22ger

October 25th, 2008, 10:07 AM

I understand what you are saying. I simply pointed out a video of a downtown event. If you look at any of my posts I never made any comment remotely referring to a minority group. I only refer to behavior. If it was a white guy getting blasted by a taser, I would have gladly posted the same you tube video link. And if the same club would repeatedly bring in that activity I would want the club closed. I really hate it when someone can't make a comment and right away it's gets twisted it into a racial thing. Then you rant against being conservative, because everyone knows that conservatives hate minorities, right?

I guess I should have known better then to bring a little entertainment to this forum. Next time I'll put a warning next to the link.

On another note....Yeahhhh...City deck is coming!!!

I fully understand you didn't have a tone like that.

But then....

I just won't. I care about Green Bay that much. As much as I disagree with GBM, he at least has something to stand on.

gbmphillips

October 25th, 2008, 08:38 PM

Puant

October 25th, 2008, 09:50 PM

It seems everyone can agree that this mall has got to go!

Everyone across the board, no matter how conservative or liberal or whatever else inbetween or outside of these ideals agrees with this. TEAR DOWN THAT MALL!!

Given the rare total agreement, let's get the ball rolling. Let's not miss another opportunity here. There is all-around support to do this. So let's take advantage of it. There are construction companies who could use the work.

The return on the "investment" of tearing it down can't really be that long, can it? Can anyone estimate the cost to raze it? Right now, the thing is generating NOTHING in revenues, there is no benefit to it; in fact, it is probalby HINDERING adjacent developments. Spend the money to tear it down and then there will be new opportunities for revenue. People will purchase the lots on speculation, at least; Some could very well actually be developed right away.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o52/Puant/20071126downtown_street_Grid_Parkin.jpg

What are soem of the best parts of downtown right now? North Adams Street is wonderful. So is Pine Street between the YMCA and the old Hotel Northland/Port PLaza towers, though currently these streets are "cut off" to the rest of downtown and the streets feel "dead end" because of the mall. Reconnecting the street grid can only help redevelop some of these older "cut off" buildings. That could be new tax revenue right there.

Think about this: We've seen many businesses in recent years show strong interest in moving into new buildings downtown. However, they couldn't quite get enough to fill the large developments like Grand Union or "Site 4"; There just was interest but just not quite enough to fill the great big developments.

But with this small-increment plan as shown above, where the "tan-colored" buildings can be built at various scales and at different increments by different developers, the demand for new downtown office space could be met at the precise scale required and with the developer or style each business is comfortable with.

In the end, these smaller -scale, mixed developments are what we like the best anyway. Moreover, the diversity of building types, sizes and styles keeps the area much more viable farther into the future.

The city seems to be swinging hard, hoping for that "Home run" but continually striking out instead. However if we're going to win we have to take what is given us. Manufacture the runs here and there with single hits. Maybe a double here or there. Heck drop down a bunt. Just get some runners on the bases. Stop swinging wildly trying to get the home run 'cause the pitch ain't there. Sorry for the silly baseball analogy.

Are we that afraid that nobody would develop this site and it would sit vacant for too long? At this point I don't even care if the site is vacant for a while. If at least the street grid is restored, we've already made some headway right there.

Sorry to beat this horse, but it ain't dead yet.

Green Bay Sponge

October 26th, 2008, 04:45 AM

avissers

October 26th, 2008, 07:29 PM

I read this post this morning from someone who onced lived in Green Bay. He now splits his time between Texas in the winter and Wisconsin in the summer. This is how he now sees our fair city.

http://newffl.net/gbforum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2384

I take offense to his comments, although he is entitled to them. Saying people should be shot with limited knowledge on actual facts of how things came to be or are shows significant ignorance and a lack of class. Green Bay is what it is to many people. I love the discussion and debate when it has merit. Yes the mall is a black eye on the downtown. Many involved with the City and pushed for it are looong gone. And I am sure if they had a crystal ball and could look into the future before building it, they wouldn't have. There are current plans in place and visions put forth for redevelopment of this area. There is a downtown plan, that should be updated, but has been followed in a very limited manner. However, it comes down to money. Either the City or a developer taking the risk. And the fact that not everyone on the Council have the same vision about downtown has some impact as well. There are other parts to this City that need attention to, but it is not overall dreary. It is not overall dark. It is a heck of a lot better than a number of other communities I have driven through in my lifetime. However, it does fail to compare to other similar sized cities in many aspects that I have visited as well. But there is potential. Things will happen. It is taking longer than we would have all hoped - but it will happen. The funny thing is I can always say that, now and forever. Green Bay will never be perfect, but it will always have potential and always be my hometown. And I am proud as hell to be able to have said that to many people in my life.

Puant

October 26th, 2008, 08:41 PM

Avissers! Great it is to see you comment again! After all, you are one of the guys who got this whole Green Bay thread rolling back in early 2005. DId you ever think back then that this little thread would turn out so many thousands of posts?

I have to agree with your comment, though of course most people throw out the phrase "he oughta be shot!" without much real thought behind it. The people who are the most overly critical are often the least informed or and of course they are NOT likely to be engaged in thoughtful objective discussion on the matter.

Yes I am one of those who is critical at times, but, I do try to balance my criticism with "but also look what is GOOD about this town!" If you ever get a chance to look at my blog, you will see the articles are balanced and fair in this regard. The articles have slowed down a bit because I just don't seem to find the time to put the required research and thought into each, as I do strive for integrity on the blog (wheras I usually leave my pointless blatherings to this thread!!)

Anyway nice to see you're still "lurking in the shadows of this dark dreary town"!!