New Hall Square
234 flats with 6,500m² of leisure, retail and office space around a new public square.
Developer: RO St Bernards
Architects: Associated Architects
Status: Approved
Planning ref: C/03359/05/FUL

http://www.associated-architects.co.uk/files/jewelleryboxnew.pdf

http://i14.tinypic.com/4h25uup.jpg http://i14.tinypic.com/2s9cdhx.jpg

http://i12.tinypic.com/2z3tmpc.jpg

Demolition :)

http://i13.tinypic.com/3088fas.jpg

http://i13.tinypic.com/2cnup3s.jpg

http://i13.tinypic.com/3y2v8dw.jpg

http://i14.tinypic.com/2vv80tf.jpg

http://i13.tinypic.com/2mmx121.jpg

http://i13.tinypic.com/48qw2sn.jpg

http://i13.tinypic.com/33kad82.jpg

http://i14.tinypic.com/2ltiiva.jpg

^^

Bloody hell they've got that down quick!

Was that the science Museum?

I notice there's a lot more of those crosses in the windows of Brindly House, so it looks like somethings happening there too.

exctng project here, should actually bring this section of canal to public use. atm there are too many brand new empty bar/resturant plots but hopefully this should change that

this will really help to join the city up :)

This area of the city has been quiet when the public is concerned but this should draw them in.

Great pics! More cranes due to appear soon then.

Was that the science Museum?
The science museum fronted onto Newhall St, which in relation to U's first picture runs behind the demolition site. So I don't think this was the science museum but that should be next.
The facade of the museum is being retained. I think it's second from right in this (top) image - next to the Queens Arms - which shows the frontage onto Newhall Street.
http://i12.tinypic.com/2z3tmpc.jpg

I'm ecstatic to see this development finally taking place. This part of the canal side has been left half-developed for too long.

Does anyone know if there will be access to the public square from the towpath? I can't tell from the renders.

^^ I think it will be from the towpath. This looks great, and I think from the plans, the whole of the old buildings will be retained as they are locally listed and historic locations?

It is interesting that all the old ironwork is being kept and will form a kind of canopy over part of the open space :)

This is going to nicely complement existing facilities and leisure in nearby St Pauls Square. The JQ is fast becoming a fantastic self contained village, and these further devs including Brindley House will serve as a very welcoming gateway into this part of the city centre.

Newhall Square and Brindley House make up a huge stretch which will help to stitch the Jewelly Quarter back to the CBD. I think Derwent House (http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/birminghampost/business/tm_method=full%26objectid=17736294%26siteid=50002-name_page.html) will also make a significant diffence as too will the Numan Brothers Coffin Factory which I assume will also be in line to reopen in the next few years. Just need something to happen with the Ludgate site. Very good news to see thinks finally happening.

http://i12.tinypic.com/315lwlg.jpg

Some Newhall Square shots from today. Surprising change in levels.

http://i16.tinypic.com/2w4h27c.jpg

http://i12.tinypic.com/4hbvg9w.jpg

http://i12.tinypic.com/2woezuw.jpg

Some of the worst cladding in the city. Looks like someone spent alot of money but Peach and Navy? Is this a BCC owned building?

Thanks for the pics Foxy. Maybe the reduced levels are for an underground car park?

It is good to see this progressing nicely - should be too long before the foundations start going in.

I think the peach & blue building is something to do with the UCE but don't quote me on that.

Someone like Blunther will probably go and wrap quotes around that now... :doh:

I think the peach & blue building is something to do with the UCE but don't quote me on that.

It's really is a stinker. Slightly off topic I saw some guys tooling around in Brindleyhouse too.

which got me thinking that it looks ok in the renders but what happens when the bulbs on the outside start to go? and the energy comsumption to light it will be massive. If there were compaints about the lighting on BT Tower then I'm sure they'll get them here too. I think the lighting aught to be toned down a bit.

Its quite exciting this happening now, between this and the AE Harris scheme we are seeing the jewellery quarter really taking a step forward!

I quite like Peach and blue too!

There's more on this on www.blue10property.ie

and don't forget the large residential scheme in Derwent House on Mary Ann Street.

I'd like to see a replacement for the big car park and and the crappy parade of shops opposite the Rose Villa. The back of the Big Peg could do with sprucing up too.

The shops block oppo the Rose Villa is going to be a .....Tesco Metro!

MCD, owners of Brindley House, are doing up the Tesco Metro parade of shops.

They also own King Edwards Wharf 1 & 2, Islington Gates, Derwent House (I think), another one off St Paul's Square and a couple of others too.

which got me thinking that it looks ok in the renders but what happens when the bulbs on the outside start to go? and the energy comsumption to light it will be massive. .

I assumed they'd use LEDs.

I hope so, but the lighting scheme still looks a little OTT to me. I noticed the top two floors of Baskerville House have been illuminated in blue now.

^^That looks really good. Everything is being illuminated in blue

Baskerville House looks amazing at night.

Nothing happening here...


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/Derekksharmen/Picture2003.jpg?t=1174221587

Newhall Square was mentioned in The Birmingham Post last week, this project & the surrounding area sounds like it is going to be really good when it is finished, & be a great link between the Jewellery Quarter & Convention Quarter.

I posted some planning apps for part of the development on the main thread, no 18 one.

It is :)

Any chance of reposting them here? :cheers:

Ta da :)

Here is the view from Charlotte Street with Queens Arm on extreme left.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/scisitepic.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/scisitepic4.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/scisitepic2.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/scisitepic3.jpg

image of the back facing the development site and the office part is much more colourful and better than the side facing charlotte street.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/scisitepic4.jpg

Thanks :)

Yes, thanks feltip.

I'm very pleased to see from the plan we're getting two public spaces extending from the towpath. The piazza linking the towpath to Newhall St is a great idea and should invite pedestrians to use the canal towpath more when getting to the Jewellery Quarter from the NIA/Brindley Place area. It'll be a marked improvement from the narrow and dank steps that are currently by the bridge.

I'm less impressed by the design of the building in these renders. Particularly where it butts against the Queens Arms. It looks like they've put the stairwell/service shaft beside the ornate PH, which is in total contrast. The rest of the building looks very rectangular too. Does this blend in with what's currently at the other end (block C)?
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/scisitepic2.jpg

I'm less impressed by the design of the building in these renders. Particularly where it butts against the Queens Arms. It looks like they've put the stairwell/service shaft beside the ornate PH, which is in total contrast. The rest of the building looks very rectangular too. Does this blend in with what's currently at the other end (block C)?


Funnily enough, I think that works - a definite border between the old and the new, and it steps down from the new building to the old :)

Funnily enough, I think that works - a definite border between the old and the new, and it steps down from the new building to the old :)

I'm still not convinced. It does give a step down to the pub but it still stands above its roof and IMO overshadows/overpowers the gable frontage.
I'd have preferred more space/air around the trimmings of the Queen's Arms. But with demand for space at a premium that really wouldn't be finanically viable, would it.
I'll happily settle for the space that has been set aside for the piazza and square. :)

:ohno:

Doesn't work for me! I think it's awful.

Is this the best we can do for the JQ?

^^I share your opinions. I just can't see the area becoming attractive - it's row after row of the usual apartment blocks with the same design. There's nothing there that makes me go "Ooh that looks good". It's just the same old same old.

But this is an industrial area :?

You won't get much astonishing modern architecture, and the value of the buildings means that you won't get neo-classicism.

It is all about urban grain, and as long as the workmanship is good, I think this will be fine :)

But this is an industrial area :?

You won't get much astonishing modern architecture, and the value of the buildings means that you won't get neo-classicism.

It is all about urban grain, and as long as the workmanship is good, I think this will be fine :)

I understand this is an industrial area but you can do wonders with industrial areas. For example in Frankfurt, I hate using Frankfurt as an example but its the only city I know as detailed as Birmingham, there is a power plant on the river very close to the city centre that has been converted into luxury apartments (in Westhafen area). The actual power plant building itself looks over the river and the large areas where the machinery used to be held has had an entire wall replaced with glass and reclad.

Alongside this are complete new builds which are inspirational. The entire scheme is beautiful and screams quality as well as excellent design. If I saw something like this in the Jewellery Quarter, then I'd be immensely happy. It fits so perfectly into the industrial area whilst retaining a quality modern approach. As for the new apartment complexes here in the Jewellery Quarter, and else where, they are really boring and repetitive. I agree that they fit into the area but more fascinating and quality architecture would make this truly special. I am sick to the teeth with dark facades with rectangular with the odd boring Juliette balcony. I fail to see the thought put into the design, because for the same amount of money, something touching the verge of iconic can be built there.

I know this is all a matter of opinion, and I'm sorry if some of you fail to see what point I'm trying to get at but it's something that is really starting to get on my pip. :bash:


Anyway, any work on site here, or is it still barren?

still barren

Here's a few photos from yesterday, in the rain ...

The site is still barren (or, as an estate agent might say, a blank canvas).
http://i13.tinypic.com/67s5sb4.jpg

A render of the buildings that will be next to the canal. They look similar to what is already built on the other side of the canal.
http://i13.tinypic.com/62r50m9.jpg

This is what's currently next to the Queen's Arms:
http://i11.tinypic.com/5zftgk9.jpg
http://i12.tinypic.com/6girexl.jpg

While the new building will be an improvement I think it could have been given a bit more character. Here's an example of apartments just a hundred yards up the road. Not iconic, not going to win awards but there is at least some detail in the shape and brickwork.
http://i17.tinypic.com/54o4yrp.jpg

So, are they adapting the existing frontage or knocking it down? Because I was under the impression all the demolition work had been done.

Thanks for the pics.I hope they enhance this stretch of canal too.

Thanks for the pics Steve-e-b!:cheers:

I didn't realise that building next to the Queens was so awful!

I was bemoaning the new proposal, but blimey compared to that crock of s***e even a picture of Prescott would be better........no, on second thoughts this building is paradise compared to that ugly mug!

The original planning permission for the demolition (finished in Dec 06) did not include knocking down the factory unit :ohno:.

Originally it was going to be used for JQ type "work units". The developers have now want to demolish the building to put up a hotel and office block.

:soapbox:

The demolition of existing factory within a conservation area is contrary to the JQ Area Conservation & Management Plan (http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/ELibrary?E_LIBRARY_ID=339&a=1126191047980) (Page 6 in pdf format). The FIVE story office block is out of scale, is too high and therefore not in line with the JQ Conservation Area Design Guide (http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/ELibrary?E_LIBRARY_ID=423&a=1140824767511).

If developers continue to demolish all the older non listed buildings in the quarter there won't be any character left :down:.

Welcome aboard gecal.

Hi gecal. :wave:
Thanks for the information.

The original planning permission for the demolition (finished in Dec 06) did not include knocking down the factory unit :ohno:.
Originally it was going to be used for JQ type "work units". The developers have now want to demolish the building to put up a hotel and office block.

The fact that they retained this building next to the Queen's Arms could indicate the proposal is still under some debate/review. There are some workshops being built in the piazza (see the plans posted by feltip). Maybe they were meant to mitigate the removal of this building.

The demolition of existing factory within a conservation area is contrary to the JQ Area Conservation & Management Plan (http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/ELibrary?E_LIBRARY_ID=339&a=1126191047980) (Page 6 in pdf format). The FIVE story office block is out of scale, is too high and therefore not in line with the JQ Conservation Area Design Guide (http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/ELibrary?E_LIBRARY_ID=423&a=1140824767511).
If developers continue to demolish all the older non listed buildings in the quarter there won't be any character left :down:.
I whole-heartedly agree with the conservation of the JQ but every building needs to be judged on a case-by-case basis. Unless there is some historical significance of the current building on Charrlotte St, I can't see any reason to keep it.
The current building already towers over the Queen's Arms and has very little character in its frontage. I'd prefer to see a better design for the new build (something shorter with more detailed brickwork) but what has been put forward is an improvement on what's there already.

Hi Nacho/Steve-e-b/et al,

Thanks for the welcome msgs. I've been lurking for a while now but have finally managed to post ;-)

I've recently moved to Birmingham and find the forum both interesting and informative. I'm staying in the Jewellery Quarter so that's why I've a particular interest in the Newhall Square developement.

Keep up the good work :-)

Hi Nacho/Steve-e-b/et al,

Thanks for the welcome msgs. I've been lurking for a while now but have finally managed to post ;-)

I've recently moved to Birmingham and find the forum both interesting and informative. I'm staying in the Jewellery Quarter so that's why I've a particular interest in the Newhall Square developement.

Keep up the good work :-)

Well apart from a welcome to the forum, welcome to Birmingham mate! :)

It's great here, much better than anywhere else. Hope you like what you find and that the locals are making you welcome!:cheers:

..

Some pics from today of the site and work ongoing. Can someone update the line for floors and u/c or demolition or whatever it is please.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/NHSQ4.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/NHSQ3.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/NHSQ2.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/NHSQ1.jpg

Are they demolishing more of the buildings?

I went for a walk around this area the other day and some of the new flats really do look crap and cheap in person. I saw a render of one of the buildings and it looked so much nicer!

At least another one of the cities wastelands is being redeveloped. This is always good news

You can register your interest in the scheme on their website:

http://www.newhallsquare.co.uk/

Can Woody or someone edit the title with the information we know as in u/c etc please.

Are they demolishing more of the buildings?
I spoke to an someone at AA about the building facing Charlotte Street about a year ago and it was undecided at the time whether it would be staying or not.

Looks like it's not.

Is this now actually under construction? Looked to me like they're still just demolishing stuff.

[QUOTE=smysticed;16959324]Is this now actually under construction? Looked to me like they're still just demolishing stuff.[/QUOTE
It is now! passed the site at lunchtime, lots of activity, workers cabins in place, steel pilings arriving, bulldozers a roving.
Also the final retail space in Islington gates fronting Summer row and backing onto the canal is being fitted out. Things are on the up!:)

Sounds good,
there's a planning app for signage for the Travelodge in the development.


Application number
C/00220/08/ADV

Date application received
15/01/2008

Date application registered
28/01/2008

Status
Under Consultation

Location
Charlotte Street, Newhall Square, Travelodge, City, B1

Proposal
Display of 2 double-sided projecting signs, 1 single- sided box sign and 1 fascia sign, all internally illuminat

Consultation details
Consultations Help

Start date
28/01/2008

End date
27/02/2008

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/NHSQ4.jpg

Those buildings look horrifically bad.

I like the white one.....but the other one reminds me of Broad St travelodge :runaway:

^^I agree there! Too much brick too. It's very uninteresting!

The building that looks like an old chapel - can anyone confirm if it is staying I cant tell from anywhere in this thread. Have admired it a few times walking past on the towpath, I would have thought it would enhance any development here

I'm just confused how big the square will be? if they keep whats there now and build round the edges? ? Saw an early rendering when it was first announced showing a huge italian type piazza! They keep saying this is going to be a "destination" attraction, so I reckon they must be keeping some of it under wraps to surprise us all.

Im not sure if anyone has seen this site before:)

http://www.newhallsquare.net/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

Ta blar

Here is plan of site as reminder of the layout.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Planning%20Images/NHsqA.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Planning%20Images/NWsqB.jpg

Hmmm, access from Newhall Street to the piazza thingy doesn't look too great there.

Seems to be a bit of a walkway next to the towpath that functions as such, underneath a bit of overhanging building - I agree - not exactly permeable.

In an ideal world they could have reinstated the old canal arm (the Whitmore Arm I presume) and designed the development around that. I imagine that would have cost a heap more, but hey.

Hmmm, access from Newhall Street to the piazza thingy doesn't look too great there.

I think there a building above the pedestrian access, it is on a stilt with the pedestrian walkway underneath. There is a render somewhere i'll see if i can dig it out.

Hmmm, access from Newhall Street to the piazza thingy doesn't look too great there.
Mm..Wonder who's idea it was to call it a "square" not seeing much of a square or piazza, maybe they meant PIZZA.:weird:

I guess this could be counted as u/c as I saw a piling rig on site over the weekend :)

oh really thats finally good news, the site has been vacant for a long time!

Had a look today as I was passing - no pile drivers on site today but there was a fair amount of rebar and some prefab steel frames lying around - and lots of activity. Portacabins stacked up - looks like a building site now :)

FINALLY.... glad i didnt move into islington gates now!

Might see another thread moved to the Construction Forum soon :)

An image from PaD magazine.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Planning%20Images/newhallsqim.jpg

LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, that is attractive. The white section to the left of the picture overhanging the walkway to the square looks a bit like Brindley House across the road.

well that already exists

Very colourful I must say .

well that already exists

True - I didn't recognise it.

The picture isn't loading! I've turned into tonkster :cry:

From Charlotte street:-

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a366/robinsonworld/Birmingham/P1010260.jpg

and a look at the frontage:-

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a366/robinsonworld/Birmingham/P1010257.jpg

maybe someone will redevelop the severn trent building in the forground of the last pic.....would be a silver lining to them heading up the A45 and really add to the regeneration efforts in this area

^^ Surely that's got to be a serious possibility with the ST move to Coventry?

Thanks for the update BS .

That piling rig looks suspiciously like a Volvo to me.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a366/robinsonworld/Birmingham/P1010260.jpg

Some interesting photos of what the canal bit by the area used to look like from the Birmingham Canal Navigations Society

http://www.bcn-society.co.uk/images/KAR35_1_big.jpg

www.bcn-society.co.uk/BCNS_Photo_Gallery9.php

Nice photo .

That piling rig looks suspiciously like a Volvo to me.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a366/robinsonworld/Birmingham/P1010260.jpg

Bio. 2 things.

1.) Besides cars, Buses, and Trucks, Volvo also make construction equipment (link (http://www.volvo.com/dealers/en-gb/vcegb/introduction.htm))

2.) I just spent 5 minutes looking at that picture trying to see a Volvo branded piling rig! :lol:

;)

Update from today from the other side.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Under%20Construction%20Bham/NH8feb2.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Under%20Construction%20Bham/NH8Feb1.jpg

Great pics Feltip, I tryed to do a pano the other day on paint thinking it was simple and you only had to stich them together, but it was so much harder and in the end I failed.

Use autostitch or Photoshop. They do it for you without you needing to move around the pictures. :)

Thanks for the update.I glad they have retained that central building .The barbed wire adds to the photo too .

That's it! Concrete is being laid! Time to move this to the construction thread...

Thanks for the update.I glad they have retained that central building .The barbed wire adds to the photo too .
Nacho, What's so good about this central building? Its old alright but I 'm trying to see what architectural merit it will bring to the development? Is'nt it going to sit right in the middle of the "piazza!":nuts:

It's a purely subjective view Liberty .I just like those kind of buildings .I like the look of these buildings in the photo (below) too and I wish they had been retained .I'm all for the development but not at the expense of everything just to end up with an open area which is pretentiously called a 'piazza ' . I'll probably end up enjoying it though .:)

http://www.bcn-society.co.uk/images/KAR35_1_big.jpg

www.bcn-society.co.uk/BCNS_Photo_Gallery9.php

I'm temped to go off on my usual 'They've destroyed a wonderful, free access, Science Museum to create the 'Thinktank', where people/tax payers are charged to see things owned by them, and it's not even a nice building etc etc.' :rant:

But I can't be bothered to do it again...

The 'why keep the old buildings' debate I think is one of the most interesting questions for the next 10 yrs as areas like Digbeth, JQ, Icknield etc are developed. In this case the new buildings look alright. Just having the one old marooned building left though doesnt work brilliantly. Its piecemeal approach to preservation. Build new sure but tie it in with all the old thats worth keeping.

I think the area around the Custard Factory is a great example of sympathetic restoration and should be a template for what the city does. I am not sure that the architectural vision exists to knock down our current streetscapes in places like Digbeth and replace it with something better.

I like the look of these buildings in the photo (below) too and I wish they had been retained .
http://www.bcn-society.co.uk/images/KAR35_1_big.jpg

The large one on the left was derelict for years and the homeless used to sleep in there. I know because when I first came to Bham a mate and I explored it. Eventually it caught fire and was very unsafe.

These buildings are disappearing quite fast. They are obviously part of our heritage but we shouldn't let them stand in the way of progress. Keeping such buildings does obviously have its merits though.

Manzoni had some very interesting views on old buildings. He saw the conservation of old structures as being purely for sentimental value and that they had no real economic justification for remaining. I partly agree with him, although he did take it too far and demolish buildings that were truly beautiful.

If we can incorporate historic buildings into modern developments, then I am all for it, just as long as it is done tastefully and not done for the sake of just keeping the facade (eg Orion Building). In the case of this, I think that the building they are retaining is actually quite special. Buildings like this are rare in our city. However, I am not sure they are really respecting the building in the way they are building around it. I'll have to wait and see really but I hope this is incorporated into the scheme well enough so that it is a centrepiece.

^^ Agreed! Its a balancing act between preserving our history/heritage and regenerating and securing our economic growth/future. Sometimes the two are not compatible and sadly some old buildings have to go.

^^ Agreed! Its a balancing act between preserving our history/heritage and regenerating and securing our economic growth/future. Sometimes the two are not compatible and sadly some old buildings have to go.
Illogikal, Think you summed up the whole debate in two sentances!

Quick update from today. And what is that I spy ;) Steelwork waiting on side

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/7558/11nhsq1en1.jpg

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/6185/12nhsqbbu3.jpg

Wooop! More U/C-ness!

Cheers Feltip (and Woody for the thread move) :)

So this is UC, well anyway thanks for the pics.

The Travelodge is targetted for opening before the end of the year, suggesting some rapid construction

Another bodge-job from Travelodge? I'm morally opposed to them as long as they're still there on Broad Street.

Edit: to be fair, the one at Fort Dunlop ain't so bad.

The Travelodge is targetted for opening before the end of the year, suggesting some rapid construction

Prefab. I bet it'll be a prefab. The rooms are built off site complete (with carpets, fittings and decorated!) inside modules, then transported to site, stacked ontop of one another, connected up to the water/sewage/electric while the stairwells and utilities are built around them. Then the whole structure is clad over.

Some of the accomodation at Curzon Gate was built this way. And the Etap Hotel. And, actually, just to prove that this method can be used for classier things, the cabins and staterooms on the Queen Mary 2 were also prefabricated, transported to site, and slotted into place like a gigantic 3d jigsaw.

http://www.sections.asme.org/fairfield/IMAGES/qm25febtws.jpg

Here, (I think!) you can see the holes in the side of the boat where cabin modules are waiting to be inserted into the structure - where the red and white structures are at the side.

From today. I think this is the site - I am a tad confused!
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Erebus555/Birmingham%2008/DSC_0066.jpg

What's confused you Erebus?

Where the site begins/ ends. On the other side of the site, there is another road and I am confused to whether the development will front the road or not. I should look at the planning app documents really.

Manzoni had some very interesting views on old buildings. He saw the conservation of old structures as being purely for sentimental value and that they had no real economic justification for remaining..

He was completely wrong, or at least would be if he said the same thing today.

Id say that today a city's ability to attract and retain talented workers is key to its economic success. The quality, age and a character of the buildings of a city make a significant contribution to whether people want to work and/or live there.

Indeed Rigadon. If we based all construction on purely Economic factors, we'd have nothing but bland, featureless boxes everywhere. It would cost less, but the city would have no interest, no atmosphere, no soul. Plus, we need our built heritage to inspire the architects of the future! Add to that the environmental benefits of not demolishing and rebuilding everything, and there are some fairly good reasons to retain buildings from our past.

I work in that turd of a greenishbrown groundscraper building housing Barclays and HSBC between BMW and the Job Centre. There's a fair bit of development down here and the NCP is to be turned into apartments, what will become of the James Cond building as it's been boarded up for years, seems nothing's happening. I also think my building lets the summer row set of buildings down big time as it stands out like a sore thumb, surrounded by more pleasant new and old builds.

I thought it was the HFC guys that lived in there.

Is the NCP going to be demolished then? Shame - it could do with being improved but it is important to have adequate parking around there.

The James Cond building I suspect is the one that has been sold to College of Food (now University College Birmingham).

As for the site - I think the line of fencing shows the edge of the site - they will almost certainly want to get the hotel out of the ground before starting on the groundworks for the apartments.

Bearing in mind we haven't seen detailed planning for the apartments yet.

Some from today:

http://martinrossbrown.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/0103ns1.jpg

http://martinrossbrown.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/0103ns2.jpg

http://martinrossbrown.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/0103ns3.jpg

http://martinrossbrown.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/0103ns4.jpg

not much going on.

Update from today

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Under%20Construction%20Bham/3MarchNS5.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Under%20Construction%20Bham/3MarchNS4.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Under%20Construction%20Bham/3MarchNS3.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Under%20Construction%20Bham/3MarchNS2.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Under%20Construction%20Bham/3MarchNS1.jpg

Update from today


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Under%20Construction%20Bham/3MarchNS2.jpg

:cheers: feltip for update

Is the Steelwork going up behind the gable wall behind the cabins another job or part of this one ?

Looked like a stack of Minipile sleeves stacked up as well. Any sign of a piling rig ?
Probably going to underpin the retained building, or as support for the grey steel laid on floor that looks like its to brace something up as welded joints and braces.

The steelwork at the gable is just a support for the pub since they removed the old warehouse this side. Precautionary measure I would expect :)

Right, I see. Thank Biosonic

The other Steel work is this lot laid at side of the site.
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/6185/12nhsqbbu3.jpg

Photo from top of previous page by Feltip

Hi,
I have just moved into the area and find this site extremely intersting and have been paying close attention to both the Newhall Square and Brindley House projects.

Does anybody know of plans for shops/convenience stores in the near future as everywhere I know of in the near vacinity seems to be shut gone 7pm. The area is crying out for a local convenience store!!!!!!!

Any help would be gratefully appreciated. :)

Hi Paul :wave:

There aren't any around the Newhall St area, but there is a Tesco Express which is decently-stocked up at the clock in the Jewellery Quarter High St - that is open till 10 or 11 I think.

I agree though - something else is needed maybe near Summerrow or even off St Paul's Square.

There's one half way down George Street

yeah very close to st pauls sq but my experience is that shuts quite early too!

its only a 10min walk to tesco on new street though which is where i do my weekly shopping!

Weclome to the boards Paul .:)

Thanks guys.
Very much appreciated. I will be keeping a close eye on future developments within the area. I must say that from looking at the photo's on this thread, i think the guys at MCD have turned what looks like an old grubby building into something tha really brightens up the area. I think when it is fully complete and occupied by residents it will look great.

Also have the exciting Newhall Square development to look forward to too. I must say things are really looking up for this area and i think it will be great. Does anybody know what is planned to go into Newhall Square as I have noticed from the drawings that there is room for retail and commercial units too.

Update from Thurs 13th

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Under%20Construction%20Bham/13MarchNS5.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Under%20Construction%20Bham/13MarchNS4.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Under%20Construction%20Bham/13MarchNS3.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Under%20Construction%20Bham/13MarchNS2.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Under%20Construction%20Bham/13MarchNS1.jpg

Lost of lovely big rebar cages ready for the pad foundations :)

Pics from today:

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w21/jamespdavey/DSC_0940.jpg

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w21/jamespdavey/DSC_0939.jpg

Thanks for the update . That pub looks fantastic .

Are their any renders of this development?

I dont get it. Is this literally just gonna be a square? If so, whats in it for the developer? Surely it would be a waste of money in their eyes?

I'm sure there's some renders earlier in the thread. And I think the idea is to build the buildings which go around the square as well. :)

Thanks dude. Yeah, I can't see the renders cos I can't view the majority of image files on this computer.

So how bigs the square gonna be? Any features? Will it be fronting onto the cool white bridge thats already there?

The building under construction is the Traveldoge if I am not mistaken?

Old map of canal network showing how close Canal got to Newhall Street and Gt Charles Street.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Old%20Birmingham/Cambrian20Wharf.jpg

Very interesting feltip .Thanks for that .

:cry:

Lovely canal wharfs and tramways :(

OOps , I didn't notice the tramway .

Does anyone know how this development will interact with the canal ? It would be fantastic to walk down that stretch of the canal to be welcomed into an open development with a place to sit down and have a coffee, or idly read our favourite newspaper ;The Birmingham Post .:)

tramways that didnt even go into the city centre?!?!?!?

who's have thought there was a canal though... would have been brilliant if is hd stayed...

Maybe it hadn't been finished yet :dunno:

The destruction of our transport links was the greatest crime inflicted on our cities imo.

Just noticed that they are erecting the crane for construction.

http://www.hostnode.org/joomla/images/stories/cam/IslingtonCam.jpg
picture updated every hour - so if it's black - it's night time :-)

Thanks for the update and welcome to the boards gecal .

Hi gecal - another one for the crane count! I never expected a tower crane for here.

Does anyone know how this development will interact with the canal ? It would be fantastic to walk down that stretch of the canal to be welcomed into an open development with a place to sit down and have a coffee, or idly read our favourite newspaper ;The Birmingham Post .

IIRC, the towpath opens out on to the square with buildings around it.

That sounds good enough for me . Cheers Bio .:)

yeah, there's a plan of the development a few pages back i think, it does open out onto the Canal, just down from the bridge.

From my earlier post - http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=18150295&postcount=67

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Planning%20Images/NHsqA.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Planning%20Images/NWsqB.jpg

Thanks for that .

Just noticed that they are erecting the crane for construction.


I've stuck some cam pictures together to make a time lapse movie (http://www.hostnode.org/joomla/images/stories/video/IslingtonCam20080410.mov) (one frame per minute) of the crane erection.

Once loaded use the Quicktime slider to run the movie backwards and forwards, or use the arrow keys to step through the day a minute at a time.

Enjoy :nuts:

Just noticed that they are erecting the crane for construction.


I've stuck some cam pictures together to make a time lapse movie (http://www.hostnode.org/joomla/images/stories/video/IslingtonCam20080410.mov) (one frame per minute) of the crane erection.

Once loaded use the Quicktime slider to run the movie backwards and forwards, or use the arrow keys to step through the day a minute at a time.

Enjoy :nuts:

Apologies, I posted one of the images from the PAD article before
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Planning%20Images/newhallsqim.jpg

and ignored other one thinking it wasn't same development. Looking at it I think it is this development looking in direction away from Newhall Street with the retained old building dead ahead across the piazza and Travelodge on right hand side. Canal would be on left out of view.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Planning%20Images/NewhallSqpiazza.jpg
http://padmag.com/pdf/padsept2006p8.pdf

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Planning%20Images/NWsqB.jpg

Lots of steelwork already flying up on the Charlotte St elevation next to the Queens Arms!!!

Lots of steelwork already flying up on the Charlotte St elevation next to the Queens Arms!!!

Watch it go up on my webcam:

http://www.hostnode.org/joomla/images/stories/cam/IslingtonCam.jpg

Timelapse to follow once it's built :okay:

Nice vantage point Gecal!

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a366/robinsonworld/Birmingham/P1010497.jpg

Also this strange building hoving in mid air will have something to keep it company!
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a366/robinsonworld/Birmingham/P1010499.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a366/robinsonworld/Birmingham/P1010497.jpg



Slap my arse and call me susan! They've put that lot up pretty quickly haven't they? The last time I was down there, there was no steelwork at all. Can't have been more than 6 weeks ago!

Christ, you're right Susie! Shot up aint it.

I need to visit this area again! It looks like it has changed a lot since I last visited! Thanks for the pics! :)

Maybe this where the steel work for masshouse has gone. :lol:

:lol:

I told you so!!!!

i was in that pub on sat night. the new build is really gonna muck up the light levels in the patio.

This part of town will be really nice in a couple of years time, more for us older types that don't particularly want to take part in the Broad Street 'experience'!

Frederick St up to the JQ clock island is where this old 'un hangs out usually!!

Don't get in to town much these days, once every couple of months now - Pershore is about as cosmopolitan I get these days!!

A trip round the site from S to N

http://trainonthebrain.googlepages.com/1205ns1.jpg

http://trainonthebrain.googlepages.com/1205ns2.jpg

http://trainonthebrain.googlepages.com/1205ns3.jpg

http://trainonthebrain.googlepages.com/1205ns4.jpg

http://trainonthebrain.googlepages.com/1205ns5.jpg

interesting last image, but surreal that view is within a conservation area

Good shots CG .Surprised to see how much it's risen in pic 1.. The council towers in photo 4 look massive .Nice bunching in pic 5 .

Fantastic pics, love the last one especially. Woody has a point! :)

im full of them, good ones too!

Update from today (i)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Construction%20Bham/16MayNH6.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Construction%20Bham/16MayNH7.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Construction%20Bham/16MayNH8.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Construction%20Bham/16MayNH9.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Construction%20Bham/16MayNH1.jpg

(ii)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Construction%20Bham/16MayNH2.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Construction%20Bham/16MayNH3.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Construction%20Bham/16MayNH4.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Construction%20Bham/16MayNH5.jpg

Thanks for the pics feltip . I hope this turns out well

I like the look of that pub .

This is coming on well, and I haven't even seen it since it's started. The Queen's Arms is nice, I hope the development doesn't end up overbearing it or detracting from it.

I think it will be alright next to it - no worse than what was there before. Should be good for business too.

Looks like they are doing up the old building next to the Queens Arms too.

so wierd how its just metal

Image from one of the boards around town for the Climate Change Festival

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Planning%20Images/31MayNSimage.jpg

Now I did not like this project at first however that picture has changed my mind, it does not look half bad.

Very nice ; I like the look of that ,I wonder how it blends with the canal .

That looks more promising - a bit like Watermarque/Jupiter/Libertyplace

Quick update but poor light

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g151/iceman14141414/P1010786.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g151/iceman14141414/P1010787.jpg

Looks like you coped well then if the lighting was poor! Pictures look fine! Cheers! :)

Looks like you coped well then if the lighting was poor! Pictures look fine! Cheers! :)

Must have used a uv filter........:lol:

News from LocateBirmingham


Full Steam Ahead for Redevelopment of Former Museum in Birmingham
July 31 2008


Developer ROSB has unveiled its designs for the transformation of the former Science Museum's engine hall at its Newhall Square development.

The images show how the former engine hall, which once housed a display of different steam engines, will become an open plan space, ideal for a restaurant, bar, retail unit or workspace.

The 487 sq m hall features exposed beams and brickwork, combining the original character of the building with contemporary skylights and glass doorways, giving it a light, airy feel.

Along with the new 100-bed Travelodge Hotel and a 1,007 sq m office building, the former engine hall forms part of the first phase of the £65 million redevelopment of the Science Museum.

The 2.3 acre site, originally home to the Elkington Plating Works, has lain derelict since 1997 when the Science Museum, which opened in 1951, closed before reopening at Millennium Point in 2001.

ROSB is building new shops, cafes, bars, offices, galleries and apartments set around a new public square fronting the canal and the first phase is due for competition in February 2009.

The scheme also has a 100-room Travelodge, which is due to open in December.

Robert Neaveson for ROSB, said the former engine hall, which opens onto Newhall Street, had been transformed into a bright, lofty space.

"The possibilities this space offers to the right commercial occupier are very diverse," he said.

"It is in a fantastic location at the heart of the Newhall Square development and would make a great home for a trendy new bar or restaurant, or a stunning workspace.

"It successfully merges the museum's original features with a clean, modern look that really does justice to the history of the building."

Details of the commercial space are available through joint agents Colliers CRE and Wright Silverwood.


http://www.locatebirmingham.com/news_and_media/news/2008/07/31

Hey, Newhall Square has a webcam:happy:

http://www.newhallsquare.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=31

From yesterday. Sorry about the quality, was facing into the Sun.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Erebus555/DSC_0214.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Erebus555/DSC_0212-1.jpg

From the mail


Back to the future for Birmingham's former Science Museum
Aug 4 2008 By Jon Griffin

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/birmmail/aug2008/7/2/8E3D806F-9FD1-46DB-32BCC07CE0ABCB87.jpg

IT’S full steam ahead for the £65 million redevelopment of Birmingham’s former Science Museum site – after more than a decade lying derelict.

Developer ROSB has unveiled its designs for the transformation of the former Science Museum’s engine hall at its Newhall Square development.

The images show how the hall, which once housed a display of steam engines, will become an open plan space ideal for a restaurant, bar, retail unit or workspace.

The 487sq metre hall features exposed beams and brickwork, combining the original character of the building with contemporary skylights and glass doorways.

Along with the new £5 million 100-bed Travelodge Hotel and a 1,007 sq m office building, the former engine hall forms part of the first phase of the £65 million redevelopment of the Science Museum.

The 2.3 acre site, originally home to the Elkington Plating Works, has lain derelict since 1997 when the Science Museum, which opened in 1951, closed, before reopening at Millennium Point in 2001.

ROSB is building new shops, cafes, bars, offices, galleries and apartments set around a new public square fronting the canal - and the first phase is due for completion in February 2009.

Robert Neaveson for ROSB, said the former engine hall, which opens onto Newhall Street, had been transformed into a bright, lofty space. “The possibilities this space offers to the right commercial occupier are very diverse,” he said.

“It is in a fantastic location at the heart of the Newhall Square development and would make a great home for a trendy new bar or restaurant.”


http://www.birminghammail.net/news/birmingham-news/2008/08/04/back-to-the-future-for-birmingham-s-former-science-museum-97319-21463173/

Now I understand the site! That picture has made everything clear! :)

tut tut,
I have posted it before ;)

in your photo is it the building on right of image you taken pictures of, the hotel?

Is there any progress on the white building on left in the image?

Here is plan of site as reminder of the layout.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Planning%20Images/NHsqA.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Planning%20Images/NWsqB.jpg

these plans might help too to get gist of site :)

Yep, that's the hotel. They were working on it when I was there. I think Travelodge want to move into this one quickly. That seemed to be the only bit with any work happening to it. I might check it out tomorrow again.

This link has good demolition and construction images of the development as well as a webcam:)

http://www.newhallsquare.net/index.php?
option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

you told us about it other day ;) :|

:nuts:

Thanks for the pic and diagrams . I'm glad it's easily accessible from the towpath .

Now they just need to make the towpath easily accessible! ;) A small staircase from Newhall Street leading towards Newhall Square would help a lot!

Quick updateette.

http://trainonthebrain.googlepages.com/2508ns1.jpg

http://trainonthebrain.googlepages.com/2508ns2.jpg

Some renders:
http://www.ashfordconstruction.net/Commercial_Newhall1_ashford.jpg

http://www.ashfordconstruction.net/Commercial_Newhall2_ashford.jpg

Client - RO St Bernards Limited

Location - Newhall Street/Charlotte Street, Birmingham

Value - £6,100,000

Construction Period - 46 Weeks

*Design & construction of a new 100 bed, 5 storey Travelodge Hotel.
*Construction of an adjacent 5 storey office develpment.
*Scheme includes a structural steel frame and various cladding treatments.
*A restricted city centre site.
*Construction adjacent to a listed building.
*Additional facilities include a restaurant and bar.
*Use of bathroom pods within the hotel.
*A complex project created over a live car park and within an operational retail/leisure
http://www.ashfordconstruction.net/Commercial_Newhall.htm

Update from yesterday:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3182/2853887759_31af163ec7_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3193/2853884397_a4f566dea9_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3132/2854718358_faf37cc088_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3077/2854107143_c37df51494_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3122/2854940500_59b5635f0b_b.jpg

Thanks for that Erebus, been a while since this was updated and there has been a bit of progress here at least.

From earlier
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3156/2869181888_6a65c54e17_b.jpg

Some from tonight. There's still just the Travelodge being built on site at the moment.
http://i34.tinypic.com/xl0cis.jpg

Cladding's on!
http://i35.tinypic.com/6hrjg4.jpg

Can't see much behind, but it's there...
http://i34.tinypic.com/2mhzqdz.jpg

I like those coloured tiles beneath the windows, shame about the terracotta ones...

hateing the coloured tiles so 90's hahahah

Ooh this looks interesting, any chance anyone could get any day time photos this weekend, especialy from the canal?

Second thing, does anybody know any details of the second phase of this? I'm guessing that any of the plans for appartments here will be on hold for a while but appart from the Hotel and appartments there is office space, is this moving forwad now or possibly as a phase 2?

http://i35.tinypic.com/6hrjg4.jpg

LOVE IT!!!!!! (in the dark) :banana2:

Perfect way to build in the JQ - industrial, right size, and it's not an expensive building either!

I like the terracotta tiles too - they work here. They just got over-used elsewhere and in inappropriate places.

Thanks CG

The terracotta tiles are longer than most I've seen and work really well. The coloured panels look very good as some are coloured and some are metallic.

The view from the canal side is completely different to this side. Looks like white aluminium panelling and is pretty similar to the visual we've seen except for the top floor which now looks better and is the same as this side.

Behind that hoarding is a long glazed elevation too.

Just a reminder of the replaced building..

http://i11.tinypic.com/5zftgk9.jpg

http://i12.tinypic.com/6girexl.jpg

I kinda forgot the old building.

any pics of the actual replacement lol

The scaffolding has been removed apart from at the high end, and it does look good, also giving a better feel at street level than the factory did obviously lol!

Some daytime shots, although the light wasn't great ...
http://i34.tinypic.com/25qgqk5.jpg

How it fits in with the Queen's head ...
http://i38.tinypic.com/314e7t4.jpg

And here's the side facing the square:
http://i34.tinypic.com/33vhmbl.jpg

(compare with renders in post 203).

Looks pretty much exactly like the renders, which never gave the impression of a particuarly interesting development. I like the side facing the street, although it has absolutely no sympathy for its neighbour the Queens Head. But thank fuck it doesn't look like the back, which in all honesty looks like a youth offenders institute. I can't imagine "Birmingham's newest square" being anything to look forward to.

Bit on the bland side .... To say the least.

I've kinda ignored this thread and missed the night photos of it so quite pleased to come back and see the hotel almost finished.

I really like it. Sit's comfortably in an industrial style with the area.

Like the front, hate the back.

know what you mean but i suppose we'll have to see with the rest of the square if it will be less obvious.
Much prefer the front too :)

Some daytime shots, although the light wasn't great ...
http://i34.tinypic.com/25qgqk5.jpg

How it fits in with the Queen's head ...
http://i38.tinypic.com/314e7t4.jpg

And here's the side facing the square:
http://i34.tinypic.com/33vhmbl.jpg

(compare with renders in post 203).

Thanks for the pics. I love the front and the back is better in real life. I guess though that there will be another building quite close and that is why they are in white.

Does look quite good there I guess. As a standalone it is good, and additionally it fits in fairly well with the Queen's Head (is not detrimental at least) so pretty good. Would like a proper look at the other side though.

From today. Excuse the whiteout - I was mucking about with exposure settings and forgot to reset them. Won't happen again, sir.
http://trainonthebrain.googlepages.com/1412ns1.jpg

http://trainonthebrain.googlepages.com/1412ns2.jpg

http://trainonthebrain.googlepages.com/1412ns3.jpg

The travelodge sign is up now when went past last sunday.

Quick snap from then.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Construction%20Bham%202/Image664.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Construction%20Bham%202/Image665.jpg

Better ones than those two from this evening.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Construction%20Bham%202/22FebNewhallhotel1.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Construction%20Bham%202/22FebNewhallhotel2.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Feltip/Construction%20Bham%202/22FebNewhallhotel3.jpg

FWIW, I had a close look at this last week and the back looks damn good - photos don't do it justice :)

Shots of the Travelodge from the canal yesterday:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3469/3349984330_0c50d362c4_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3598/3349986248_3170886362_b.jpg

The colourful bit is nice, shame about the youth offenders hostel next door...

Yes , the splattering of colour part looks quite smart .Thanks for the photos .

Blimey Nacho, haven't seen you around these parts for a while! :)

:) Hi there .

yeah i like this! sup nacho :)

Fab photo's Erebus. Not seen it in day properly.

Another hotel that will have a lovely view out of the windows... :|

Another hotel that will have a lovely view out of the windows... :|

Birmingham is an unfinished painting, I'm sure in a short time the views will improve :soon:

That's a good phrase :)

i_l_c - go take a look at the white stuff - it actually looks very good and not at all Etappy.

Yeah, the white cladding is very good quality but I am not a fan of it. It's just too stark for my liking.

Birmingham is an unfinished painting, I'm sure in a short time the views will improve :soon:

Birmingham has been an unfinished painting since 1962:lol:

It was a masterpiece but some morons vandalised it in the 1960's and threw concrete crap all over it.

All quiet down here:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3563/3458865352_5870858d64_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3651/3458909322_b6c743d97c_o.jpg

Great photos as ever Andy_K, second one looks marvelous, might have to take a trip down here with the camera myself sometime.

Wow, "Birmingham's newest Square" looks ummm, like a big patch of dirt.

Really atmoshperic photos :)

They've cleared the site up now, so I guess it'll be a little bit of time before we see anymore work commence on here. :|

Nothing has been happening since they completed the the Travelodge, i walk past here most days and i have seen nothing, not even a survey.

Perhaps they'll take the slowdown as an opportunity to up-spec the rest of the development.

I would have liked to have seen TWS's version here:

http://www.twsarchitects.com/elkington%20row.htm

It's a real shame MCD didn't win as their scheme was a lively "Water's Edge" concept with a proper boutique hotel (Alias Group) in the restored old building which was demolished to make way for the Travel Lodge (not a good swap in my opinion). As always I suspect the decision came down to money rather than merit.

That TWS version looks quite impressive .