*INSERTED TEXT*

"Sustainable mosque for London
Futuristic mosque design features wind turbine minarets and tidal power

A giant mosque that will hold 40,000 worshippers is being proposed beside the 2012 Olympic complex in Newham, London. Tablighi Jamaat, a worldwide Islamic missionary group, is planning on building the mosque of the future, called the London Markaz (Arabic for centre).

While other British mosques have plastic minarets and fake domes to imitate traditional mosques in the Middle East, the futuristic design of the Markaz features wind turbine minarets and an enormous translucent latticed roof to replace the dome.

Although the three-storey mosque would already have by far the largest capacity of any religious building in Britain, the Markaz can be extended in peak periods with inflatable structures to provide additional prayer space. The 10-acre complex would include a garden, school, library, gym and accommodations for visiting worshippers. The Markaz and its surrounding buildings would hold a total of 70000 people, only 10,000 less than the nearby Olympic stadium."

http://www.freshtechnology.net/images/markaz1.jpg
http://www.freshtechnology.net/images/markaz2.jpg


There was an article on Newsnight about the mosque a few weeks back. Tablighi Jamaat are known to have financial links with Al'Qaeda, are under watch by the US Government and had several ringleaders removed from the US after 9/11. They also control a mosque in Bradford? I believe that hasn't allowed Non-Muslims or the police inside, and the community around the mosque has basically turned its back on the surrounding non-Muslim communities.

Well done to Zaha Hadid, it's about time London got a building by her. This building and the aquatic centre will make 2 Hadid designs in London. :)

And the "super-mosque" if it's built.

That's not Hadid.

Sorry, you're right. I got confused as the designer worked with Hadid, I believe on the Cardiff Opera House.

http://www.freshtechnology.net/science-mosque.php

is that project still happening? its a bit contentious isn't it?

The mosque hasn't gone in for planning permission yet. It's a very contentious issue (personally for me as well as it is at the end of my road) for many of the locals. The decision whether to build it has been put to a quango, who will make a decision without asking the locals on their views. It's also quite a politicised issue, the financiers behind it are a very secretive sect within the Muslim community, who are known to have Al'Qaeda connections and refuse to have their mosques open to non-Muslims and the police.

Suffice to say when it does go in for planning it will make headlines.

if that is the case it should never happen.

If that is all true then it wont happen....I am happy for any religions place of worship in my street as long as its not for the worship of a bullet

The biggest factor I'm against is that 70,000 people will descend on the area which does not have adequate road links, nor a Tube station that can cope with that amount of commuting.

Remember that this is the same amount that will take part in the Olympic opening and closing ceremonies, and for each of those events a transport model will be delicately studied, created and implemented, shuttling people from two major train stations along something like seven rail lines. Around 40,000 will descend on West Ham en masse every friday, and 70,000 for the beginning and end of Ramadan. I don't see the area coping and would easily become an East London muslim ghetto where outsiders wouldn't be welcome.

And this isn't really a Muslim issue, I wouldn't support a Christian church on site, nor would I support a major arena. There would have to be a major upgrade of the road and rail links to the area, and what with limited space I don't see that happening.

The biggest factor I'm against is that 70,000 people will descend on the area which does not have adequate road links, nor a Tube station that can cope with that amount of commuting.

Remember that this is the same amount that will take part in the Olympic opening and closing ceremonies, and for each of those events a transport model will be delicately studied, created and implemented, shuttling people from two major train stations along something like seven rail lines. Around 40,000 will descend on West Ham en masse every friday, and 70,000 for the beginning and end of Ramadan. I don't see the area coping and would easily become an East London muslim ghetto where outsiders wouldn't be welcome.

And this isn't really a Muslim issue, I wouldn't support a Christian church on site, nor would I support a major arena. There would have to be a major upgrade of the road and rail links to the area, and what with limited space I don't see that happening.


40,000? How big is this Mosque going to be??? I would very much question those figures (not your relating them) as they seem very alarmist. Bear in mind that people visit the Mosque at any time of the day, so they wont all come at once.

No..its not a Muslim issue...who said that?

It is, potentially a security issue, if, as stated by some above, it is known that this is a radical sect connected with terrorist groups that also so not allow non musilms or the police to enter (?)

That would definately worry me more....(as one who was evacuated from house house in Shepherds Bush for two days on 21st July) not in my street, or my community or city or country. Religion does not come into it.

"Sustainable mosque for London
Futuristic mosque design features wind turbine minarets and tidal power

A giant mosque that will hold 40,000 worshippers is being proposed beside the 2012 Olympic complex in Newham, London. Tablighi Jamaat, a worldwide Islamic missionary group, is planning on building the mosque of the future, called the London Markaz (Arabic for centre).

While other British mosques have plastic minarets and fake domes to imitate traditional mosques in the Middle East, the futuristic design of the Markaz features wind turbine minarets and an enormous translucent latticed roof to replace the dome.

Although the three-storey mosque would already have by far the largest capacity of any religious building in Britain, the Markaz can be extended in peak periods with inflatable structures to provide additional prayer space. The 10-acre complex would include a garden, school, library, gym and accommodations for visiting worshippers. The Markaz and its surrounding buildings would hold a total of 70000 people, only 10,000 less than the nearby Olympic stadium."

http://www.freshtechnology.net/images/markaz1.jpg
http://www.freshtechnology.net/images/markaz2.jpg


There was an article on Newsnight about the mosque a few weeks back. Tablighi Jamaat are known to have financial links with Al'Qaeda, are under watch by the US Government and had several ringleaders removed from the US after 9/11. They also control a mosque in Bradford? I believe that hasn't allowed Non-Muslims or the police inside, and the community around the mosque has basically turned its back on the surrounding non-Muslim communities.

I hope they don't build it

Whilst we are getting very agitated and fearful of those notorious and unsubstantiated "financial links", let's not forget the very real financial links from NorAid to the IRA through the 60's, 70's 80's and 90's. Same thing - institutional support for terrorism, only in NorAid's case it came from our buddies in the US. NorAid was the principal channel for millions of US dollars from legal and " respectable" US fund-raising efforts, including the Republican party, which enabled the purchase of weapons and explosives for the duration of "the troubles". The scale of fundraising was, I suspect, vastly greater than that from mosques to Al-Qaeda (if we even choose to believe that this information is true) and yet it failed to generate a fraction of the hysteria and alarm that we are seeing today surrounding the alleged mosque/al qaeda connection. As clear a case of double standards as you are ever likely to see.
And anyway, isn't it funny how things come around?

Well I expect you could find financial links between Al'Qaeda and everyone if you look hard enough. The Olympic Park is hardly being built with whiter than white money. The biggest point that I find rather two faced is that this nw mosque is being billed as the 'premier' Muslim experience in Europe, and is beign advertised as open and welcoming to non-Muslims, and yet is being financed and run by one of the most notoriously secretive and shady Muslim communities in the UK.

It is a concern, I agree. And I'd be worried if it went up at the end ofmy road too. But.....you know what, without wanting to look like some empty-headed Da Vinci Code conspiracy theorist, there are few communities shadier and more secretive than the Vatican bank, and its dealing with Banco Ambrosiano and the P2 Masonic lodge have been shown to be very murky and (for one banker at least found dangling from Blackfriars bridge) lethal. And of course the Vatican is one of the richest instituions on the planet.
I do suspect that we feel more comfortable when shady operators are based in a western religious mythology, that we are all familiar with, rather than an eastern one.

The biggest factor I'm against is that 70,000 people will descend on the area which does not have adequate road links, nor a Tube station that can cope with that amount of commuting.

Remember that this is the same amount that will take part in the Olympic opening and closing ceremonies, and for each of those events a transport model will be delicately studied, created and implemented, shuttling people from two major train stations along something like seven rail lines. Around 40,000 will descend on West Ham en masse every friday, and 70,000 for the beginning and end of Ramadan. I don't see the area coping and would easily become an East London muslim ghetto where outsiders wouldn't be welcome.

And this isn't really a Muslim issue, I wouldn't support a Christian church on site, nor would I support a major arena. There would have to be a major upgrade of the road and rail links to the area, and what with limited space I don't see that happening.

Whilst I accept that, post-2012 Stratford will have some of the best transport links out of central London. Emirates stadium, with its 60,000 capacity, has far worst connections than a centre with bus, DLR, train and underground (East London line), as well as a Eurostar link. The mosque is being designed for 40,000 - the 70,000 extension is only a vague plan and I would be surprised if it reaches the 40,000 figure for any time other than Ramandan.

We must also remember that London's biggest Muslim communities are in East London: Many will go there by bus, car, bicycle or on foot. Subject to checking out where the funding is from, addressing any local concerns and making sure non-Muslims are allowed in the mosque, I think it's a great proposal, increasing London's tolerance and multicultural status, with a great, inventive piece of religious architecture to boot.

I would not like to live close to it either, if ever built. This kind of project would never be allowed in continental europe.

Its great, its a cultural structure rather than another boring office or residential block. Cities need these structures in order to stay alive. Just because our traditional society no longer builds spiritual centres shouldnt mean they can not be imported... are we jealous or something? Traffic considerations are mere detail to be dealt with and should never be the main criteria over something so precious as a cultural centre, these should instead be nutured and loved. Anyway like someone else said the figures banded around are hardly going to be routine and may reach it only once or twice a year. I came back from India experiencing entire cities celebrating Eid and Diwali both from different religions with gay abandon and they will go on to celebrate Christmas too late in the year. Ok huge traffic problems and chaos in the streets but the people are alive and human.

^^ Surley it's more than just a factor of the acrhitecture itself.

I'm not Anti-Islamic, but i know alot of people would be very concerned at the prospect of this.

no im not talking about architecture (in this case this is a big bonus) but the convergent use of a place, something not used for work, retail or home. After visiting some Indian cities I really think we are missing out in our overtly commercialised cities. This is why I feel that traffic issues should be dealt with as the detail they are rather than something that is the be all and end all of an idea.

proposal, increasing London's tolerance and multicultural status, with a great, inventive piece of religious architecture to boot.

Increasing tolerance? Increasing Londons multicultural status? It does neither... curious things to say indeed.

This is why I feel that traffic issues should be dealt with as the detail they are rather than something that is the be all and end all of an idea.

I'm sorry but that's complete crap.

First of all picking up on a couple of points the mosque is next to West Ham station and isn't really near Stratford in walking distance, so the idea that visitors can use the Eurostar is mute. West Ham has one single decker bus route connecting it with Stratford and Canning Town. There hasn't been any allownace for car parking in the plans, and the current (shabby) mosque that is on the site is packed with cars surrounding it on fridays. These cars will simply park in the local area, which is already filled with cars bumped up on the kerb because the roads are too small.

Secondly, the road system to the current mosque isn't adequate. The main entrance is off of Abbey Lane, which if anyone has been down is a small residential road which then passes over the Greenway pedestrian and cycle route. Whilst this maybe okay at the moment, the amount of traffic arriving and leaving will mean massive queues locally.

Whilst I like the building and the ideology behind it, I just think it is located in a completely wrong area. West Ham isn't a big area, it is mainly residential, and although the Olympics are on the doorstep, it isn't directly in the path of any regeneration from it, and I doubt that dumping a 40,000+ mosque on its doorstep will create the necessity to better connect the area to its neighbours.

my issue is with the capacity too. 40,000 is the regular worshippers, that doesnt include the people on site... the real capacity will be more like 50,000 a day. its just not sustainable. i dont see why a place of worship should get such tolerance from the planning system when a football stadium would not.

we feel more comfortable when shady operators are based in a western religious mythology, that we are all familiar with, rather than an eastern one.

With the danger of going completely off topic (lets face it though..we are all concerned about other matters on here too once in a while)

With regard to a familiar sect and one that is from a completely different culture in this case I would argue that modus operadi is the key!

One picks off an idividual for an action he/she is accused of - the other is a completely randon massacre with as much death and destruction as possible......one is a necessary evil - the other is a call to kill and mutilate in the name of god.

I do agree that it is easier to blame the unfamiliar, which is why I maintain there is an obvious difference between the devout and the evil/ill.

I love the sound of building a mosque on this scale, but I'd obviously have issues with not allowing non muslims to enter. Not allowing non muslims in would create more barriers between people. Allowing people in would help more people understand muslim culture (something that is desperately needed in this country). I really do feel that something like this should be somewhere around central london such as shoreditch.

Increasing tolerance? Increasing Londons multicultural status? It does neither... curious things to say indeed.
I perhaps worded by sentence slightly inarticulately: I meant to say it would increase London's reputation for multiculturalism and tolerance. As Jef rightly said, no mainland European city would even consider a proposal for a mosque of such proportions.

First of all picking up on a couple of points .... Whilst I like the building and the ideology behind it, I just think it is located in a completely wrong area.

points taken,

I just find it frustrating how vulnerable cultural projects always get swept aside there doesnt seem to be much of mechanism to nuture them. Take the Hindu temple in Neasden, it took a huge effort from a minority community to get it build... terrible location but that is all they could afford yet London is all the better with it, could have been better but well done to those people.

London lost out when a major islamic cultural centre moved to Toronto after the site they wanted become entangled by politics. These sorts of things dont come along very often and I just wish they were embraced more positively.

I perhaps worded by sentence slightly inarticulately: I meant to say it would increase London's reputation for multiculturalism and tolerance. As Jef rightly said, no mainland European city would even consider a proposal for a mosque of such proportions.

But why is that necessary? Why should we say "Look at us, we'll let anybody build what they want, doesn't matter if it potentially comprimises our security and encroaches on our lifestyle, as long as we are the most multicultural it's ok with us!"

People on this website often say that a development is bad if it creates seperate comunitys or doesn't intergrate into the surrounding area, so why is this any different? It'll create tension between groups of people, especially as they won't allow any police inspections, what kind of message does that send out? Not one of trust and harmony.

What would you say if it was a large cathederal?

^^ I'm an Athiest, so that one won't work on me, besides you're still missing the point, in todays political climate it might be a bad idea to force non Islamic people into a potential situation where so many Islamic worshipers will converge around a very mixed and non-islamic religion area, and you can bet that with 7/7 fresh in the memory of Londoners that there will be alot of tension & apprehension.

What would you say if it was a large cathederal?



I would do anything for a cathedral of today to be built anywhere. I think one place where Prince Charles is right...a cathedral for everybody ...Muslim, Christian (and what does that mean), Jew, Aetheist, Hindhu....Britian is by default or design, the special place where anyone can be themselves.....That is why I particularly resent an alien primative concept that we all are meant to fear.....only fear your belief if you believe it, surely!

This is a great advanced place to live and the architecture of our new cathedral will be a new wonder of the world when it comes....and it will be here first, whatever anybody throws at us ....melange etrange...London :)

The best relatively modern example of a British cathederal is "Paddy's Wigwam" in Liverpool and that was back in the 60s. I don't really see the need for a new cathederal in Britain as it would seem Christianity is already over-represented, with the CoE's influence shrinking by the day over ordinary British people. When fewer and fewer people are going to church it would seem uneccessary to build another huge Christian edifice.

Islam is the world's fastest growing religion and the number of people wanting to attend mosques in Britain is increasing: Therefore, it would seem unfair to deny followers of what I believe second (and perhaps most) practised religion in areas of London a focal point of their own. Hinduism - the other main minority religion - has one.

Christianity, (for understandable reasons) has at least two of worldwide recognition in the capital. That said, I would largely agree with Mulatto's slightly idealistic vision of things. I am making a gross generalisation here, but the non-state relgions do seem to attract more devout followers - perhaps in a need to keep their religious communities going?

I'm an Athiest, so that one won't work on me, besides you're still missing the point, in todays political climate it might be a bad idea to force non Islamic people into a potential situation where so many Islamic worshipers will converge around a very mixed and non-islamic religion area, and you can bet that with 7/7 fresh in the memory of Londoners that there will be alot of tension & apprehension.
I wasn't trying to "work" anything on you. I was just genuinely curious. I didn't suggest that you are Christian but CoE appears white, middle class and inoffensive to many agnostic (or athiest) people in this country. It has formed as more of a social than a religious force.

Surely the "point" is that in the post-7/7 world we should not give in to Islamaphobia and continue to allow every religion - it would seem from your post that because of four terrorists - you do differentiate Islam from other religions. Now I'm not naive, and I see that a degree of sensitivity is required, as with Catholics during the Troubles but banning a large mosque's construction - when all of Britain's other main relgions has its own centre - because a few bigots would be apprehensive seems far more divisive than any mosque.

And (I believe) the area proposed for the mosque has close to largest concentration of muslims in the UK, if not Europe.

this mosque has the capacity of britain's 15 largest cathedrals! there is no comparison between them

but capacity is not really a comperable value, a mosques prayer/sermon area can just be open space within the perimeter boundary wall where in a Cathedral or church it is in the nave which requires a roof and seating etc The fact that you can cram lots of people into the outside courtyard instead of seating everyone is just a difference in architectural style... its the same with a football ground. I agree that parking for places of worship
causes a problem cause people come from further afield now a days but you can hardly fear people visiting a place of worship for any other reason its not like a load of drunk and rowdy football fans!

I wouldn't support it either if it was a cathedral. As I've said I wouldn't care what religion wanted to build there.

If anything, I'd site this somewhere in the Thames Gateway. You'd have very good road links via the A13, an extension of the DLR to Dagenham Dock and potential Crossrail routes by the time it is completed. Noise wouldn't be a major problem not having a massive residential area nearby, and the site would have room to expand in the future.

The mosque hasn't gone in for planning permission yet. It's a very contentious issue (personally for me as well as it is at the end of my road) for many of the locals. The decision whether to build it has been put to a quango, who will make a decision without asking the locals on their views. It's also quite a politicised issue, the financiers behind it are a very secretive sect within the Muslim community, who are known to have Al'Qaeda connections and refuse to have their mosques open to non-Muslims and the police.

Suffice to say when it does go in for planning it will make headlines.
Chill everyone.
there is absulutly no way a mosque this big will built anywhere outside of the muslim world.The times we live in just wont allow it.
Its the eqivalent of having a 40000 seat Russian embassy b4 the berlin wall came down. Unthinkable.

Chill everyone.
there is absulutly no way a mosque this big will built anywhere outside of the muslim world.The times we live in just wont allow it.
Its the eqivalent of having a 40000 seat Russian embassy b4 the berlin wall came down. Unthinkable.
So you believe we are at war with Islam?

This proposal generated a lot of discussion in the 'full summary of projects'... I think it deserves its own thread!

In fact this would be better in the "Cultural and Sporting Venues" section.

*moves thread*

lol, yeah mention mosque and you instantly get a 'discussion'. I agree with Mulatto's kids request for a non-faith spiritual centre, I found the spiritual zone thing in the millenium dome particularly intriguing... architecture as sprirituality is very potent and it is about time we created something to serve our needs especially as there is no longer a dominant religion and technology allows us to splinter and fragment.

With regards to the mosque I think it is important that minority groups feel at home and welcome in the country. The numbers of dodgy rooms and halls converted into community halls, mosques, gudwaras and temples beggars belief especially whilst we lovingly restore churches as they slowly turn into houses and nightclubs. The make shift centres and new builds on the cheap are testament to the strength of the communities but really it isnt a particularly long term approach we should be letting people revell in their faiths and express it through permenant and beautiful places so all can admire.

Your kidding me WJFOX :ohno:

As said before. This country should focus on getting the likes of New Street Station sorted before anything else.

yes because we all need to get to work on time sigh

Your kidding me WJFOX :ohno:

What's the problem?

So you believe we are at war with Islam?

Of course i dont believe we are at war with islam in the sense that u mean it. We werent 'at war' with the USSR.
However, as u may have noticed potential & actual conflicts DO seem to have Islam on the one side & the west or western leaning governments on the other, as the main protaganists.And this has had consiquences here in the UK
(I dunno how political we can get on ssc although here in the on the UK forum it seems OK, & i dont know who you are & I certainly dont wanna get any ones goat up, especialy our islamic brothers.
I have visited many muslim countries & have no problem there.If u wanna carry this on sand us a PM., i can suggest some decent reading matter & we can slog it out if u want. A war with islam, it was suggested to me once, would be solved with a nuetron bomb on mecca.THAT was someones response to the LDN bombings...
What do you believe?Do you think we are or should be at war? Or do you think that we (muslims) are at war with the infadels?Or do you believe that its a USA conspiracy including sept 11, to sell more arms & use more petro chemicals? )

So as i said a huge mosque like that will not get built outside the islamic world.
In the same way I couldnt imagine a new cathederal of this size being built in the islamic world , not at this time.
Someone suggested a multi faith centre.Great idea but no ones gonna fund it.And. No one would attend it .We live thankfully in a predominantly secular country.As the man said 'god is dead'
Except 4 I & I who is a rastaman.Ites.
Or is this just an excuse to lick up a spliff...i .. i... cant... remember...

the biggest Hindu temple outside of India was built in London. Dont you see that these things are of huge benefit to London? London is acting on a world stage now not and is no longer the centre of an empire, the tables have turned! If London helps celebrate along with half of the worlds population then we benefit from that solidarity it is that simple. London has already lost islamic treasures to Toronto of all places!

What would you say if it was a large cathederal?

Do Christian churches keep out non-Christians?

the biggest Hindu temple outside of India was built in London. Dont you see that these things are of huge benefit to London? London is acting on a world stage now not and is no longer the centre of an empire, the tables have turned! If London helps celebrate along with half of the worlds population then we benefit from that solidarity it is that simple. London has already lost islamic treasures to Toronto of all places!

Ok a couple of things.
I'm not saying im for or against it.Theres plenty of mosques in london & i think they're great.especialy the gourgious thin minaret cobalt blue turkish ones.
But a mosque of this size just wont happen.
And as for hindu mandirs(temples), the most bueautiful biuildings in the world, i say this.
Imagine if the tamil tigers had international support (IE indian & NRI) & local sleeper cells & went around bombing the shite out of our talls & tubes & western tourist spots in Lanka or India, a 40000 seater mandir wouldnt get built anywhere outside of the hindu world either.No?
(Luckely both india & the tigers understand that if they did do that , their cause would then gain such international condemnation that we'd arm the lankan government to the teeth & its by bye the tamil homeland.they invented the suicide bomber remember)
London is already the most cosmopolitan city in the world (yeah all the N Y' ers will argue the point...)so another show of religious diversity makes no difference to us.
I say build a 40000 seater rasta temple & lets all lick up a spliff an.. I cant rememba ...wos this ...thread ...about...? Ites

Sorry about the long post, but here goes...

I don't know the area, so I can't really comment on the transport links. As for the 40,000 capacity - I can't see this being reached in the near future; even on the two days of Eid each year I'd be surprised if actual attendance breached 10,000. There's no provision for car parking? Then how do they plan to get this through planning? Not sure I believe that one. All mosques everywhere in Britain have issues with car parking & getting in & out. Friday prayers are weekly, and not quite as well attended as Eid prayers. So yes, I would share the concern that that 1 day/week needs careful consideration (although this disruption will occur while most local residents are at work or in school). I would put it to you that it is also in the mosque's interests to ensure that its patrons are able to leave in a safe, timely and orderly manor. It has been assumed that traffic considerations are being ignored by the developers - for these reasons, I'd be very surprised if this is proven to be true.

As for excluding non-Muslims from the building. This is against the very essence of Islam and what a mosque should be, so again i would content that this is more rumour (scare-mongering) than fact. Islam is not a closed religion; it openly invites people to its message, and the mosque plays a large part in this. Indeed, the role of the mosque is not just as a place of worship, but as a centre for the community. The very first hospitals in the world were pioneered by Islam, and were built as attachments to the mosques. When building a mosque of this size & architectural merit, I would suggest that the developers are very aware that their building will generate a lot of interest, and that far from shutting people out, they would been keen to invite people in and help them to learn about Islam.

Terrorist links. I'm sure I could be linked to Al Qaeda if the government really wanted to (as others here have already said). Tablighi Jamaat (TJ) is one of the most toothless organisations i know. Their primary mission is to encourage people to become better Muslims and improve their relationships with God. They do this by travelling in groups of about 10 or so, travelling around many mosques for up to a month at a time, staying in each mosque for several days. As far as i am aware, they have no political leanings (at least, not in the UK).


So, speaking as a British (Scottish!) Muslim living in london, who is concerned at the way our nation is being divided, that's my two pence worth. This Mosque should be built, and it should be open to the entire community for all to use.

I agree but I'm curious how much do you know about about the Tablighi Jamaat? Today a petition was signed by 2000 local Muslims calling for the mosque not to be built because of the TJ backers.

To be honest, not much. My experience has been that they are harmless, but that only really applies to Glasgow, where they aren't very big. I saw that article in thelondonpaper today and though "d'oh". Though, to be honest, I don't trust anything I read in any of Murdoch's papers (they constantly exaggerate/spin/get things wrong - 25 floor Shard, anyone?), and I don't trust anything our security services/police/government say either. But that's another topic!

In my own (limited) experience, they're harmless. But I could be wrong. Just don't believe everything you see/read/hear as fact, because it's not.

When Tablighi Jamat was identified as "a terrorist organisation" I couldn't stop laughing. It's like saying the Jehovas Witness are a dangerous terrorist organisation intent on destroying the west (some might agree with that on sunday mornings when there's a loud knock on the door!!). The groups primary activity is to revive faith and spirituality amongst muslims. The groups started off in India as a result of the loss of the Islamic faith during the reign of the British Raj.

In the UK, it is continuing its mission that is ongoing in the Sub-Continent. Nothing much more than that really. Everything dodgy I've read about them is scare-mongering and downright silly.

Regarding the mosque - I don't understand how the people behind the project hope to get 40,000 worshipers from?!!!

Usaf Islam (Cat Stevens) organisation was also linked to terrorism and he was famously denied access to the US!! I think in the grand scheme of things most of us are linked some way or another to terrorism!

Any spare sites in that area could be far better used for housing, employment and extending green corridors.

That's leaving aside a streak of Islamophobia which I do try and fight.

Regarding the mosque - I don't understand how the people behind the project hope to get 40,000 worshipers from?!!!

If you build it, they will come...probably

Have you heard of Pilgrimage?

With peace and respect to all believers in this country. A glance at history is always useful. Bear in mind Britain is constitutionally a moderate Protestant Christian country, but only after 2 civil wars and revolution! The Queen is the head of the church and state. The Church of England may seem laughably limp but it was designed as a religious compromise to appease extreme Protestant (puritans) and Catholic Christians from attacking each other and destroying the state in the process. A bit like Sunnis and Shi'ites in Iraq now you might say. It's function is as a religious buffer, broad and bland. If the only offensive thing about it is it's inoffensiveness, then maybe we should be grateful for the liberty that affords for more passionate believers. In London there are 2 major Protestant churches St Pauls and Westminster Abbey but no large Catholic equivalent for reasons of political sensitivity. It was actually illegal to be a Catholic in British-ruled Ireland until 1793 and in the rest of Britain until 1829. We could easily have had a Northern Ireland situation across Britain for the last 350 years but for the fact that Christians have been generally moderate in their worship and propogation of their faith and respectful of the law, avoiding the bloodshed that usually accompanies religious tensions. Many liberal politicians who seek to eliminate all religion from the public realm, never recognize the religious harmony in Britain compared to other places.
Muslims currently represent about 3% of the population and they should be free under British law to build whatever buildings they want to worship in, subject to planning rules. However the size and prominence of a super-mosque needs to reflect the population of Muslims in Britain (not just London) and the design should be in proportion to both of the protestant cathedrals in London, but also the fact there is no 'large' catholic cathedral in London despite the fact that 9% of Britain is catholic.
A 40,000 seat mosque isn't wrong per se, but politically it will unwittingly end 350 years of a delicate British religious balance by seeming to discriminate against the vast majority of Christians for being too moderate and tolerant.

It's foolish to build a 40,000 seat mosque for Muslims in London when a single Christian cannot worship in Mecca.

^some interesting points made but no Catholic Cathedral In London? Ever heard of Westminster Cathedral?!

^some interesting points made but no Catholic Cathedral In London? Ever heard of Westminster Cathedral?!

That's my point - I said 'no large cathedral' and not many people have heard of it. Although it's a nice church (on the left), it's not as as prominent in terms of design, statement, scale, location and budget as St Pauls. It's is a sensitive piece of political architecture. As there are 3 times as many Catholics as Muslims in Britain, a 'national' mosque should be similarly sensitive and in proportion again to the Catholic Cathedral. In Britain, Muslims are right to be offended if not treated 'equally'. This does not mean they can have a mosque as big as St Pauls. :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/WestminsterCathedralFull.jpg/250px-http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/City.of.london.st.pauls.arp.500pix.jpg

but people dont normally worship outdoors in the Christian faiths in this country

the outdoor courtyard space at mosques is the only reason they can reach such large numbers

if they stuck a loudspeaker outside Westminster Abbey im sure the Catholics could compete ;)

but people dont normally worship outdoors in the Christian faiths in this country

the outdoor courtyard space at mosques is the only reason they can reach such large numbers

if they stuck a loudspeaker outside Westminster Abbey im sure the Catholics could compete ;)

In 1979, 1 million people saw the pope hold an open air Mass in Phoenix Park, Dublin. This was 25% of the entire country! I bet that was some traffic jam! I've never been in a mosque, so I'd be interested to see how they function as pieces of architecture. The 'Sultan Ahmed' Mosque (aka The Blue Mosque) in Instanbul has to be one of the most beautiful buildings ever made. It's colossal but still 'only' seats 10,000.
http://www.sights-and-culture.com/Turkey/Istanbul-Blue-Mosque-5464.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Ac-sultanahmed1.jpg

If a new cathedral this size had been proposed with the same architectural merit of St Pauls, no one would complain (minus some locals) however the design is not typical of mosques and that's what I think most people don't like. If it was grand, traditional and architecturally "wowing" then there'd be alot more support but to be honest it doesn't look that impressive. Of course there are small numbers opposed because it is a mosque and they don't want them built from a religious/intolerant perspective.

my point is that the larger mosques typically include like an outside courtyard area where you can join in with the prayer and this is where they have got this huge capacity figure from by including this space which will only be used on special occasions such as Eid. So comparing the capacity to a cathedral or church is a bit misleading as it isnt like for like.

It looks like the design includes some sort of flowing roof that may infact cover part of the outdoor space due to weather in this country so at once it may look impressive but again shouldnt be thought of as a threat to the stature of the countries traditional cathedrals as there is a different thought process behind the design.

They also point out that the Islamic world was once a leading force in technology hence the radical design they have proposed, I would have liked to have seen something traditional for instance how things worked out with the neasden hindu temple but I can see the reason and ultimitaly share their enthusiasm for something modern and striking

the other point of contention is location, again in an ideal world we would see such 'real' cultural manifestations appearing in a more central location all together with a powerful message from their close proximity. However like the Neasden temple these things will get built where it is practical and meaningful for the community behind it and like Neasden this means that there may be some frustrations in trying to access the place (in Neasden you expect to come across a mechanics shed rather than an ornate temple!) or the numbers of visitors (I suspect that the mosque may draw less tourists due to its modern design). However like Neasden temple we will ultimately be enriched by its presence and as such physical manifestations of a community are so rare in this modern age of beaurocracy and profit that it should be welcomed by all that there is even a proposal!

Man can't impress God.




http://farm1.static.flickr.com/136/355978547_1a6dbd95ff_b.jpg








...but he gets pretty close. Tell me you still don't believe.

Hello everyone, as a Londoner, sorry to those that have read bigoted opinions by some :bash: but amongst the confabulated ideas there are some truths, [there always is to make a lie believable]. Tabliq Jammat are similar to Jehovah’s Witnesses (except most of them preach ‘stay with your faith but just be more Islamic = peaceful with yourself and God’). So who better to organise such a project! Quite funny that a British-created spiritual movement of pacifist could be 'US-thought terrorists!'

Everyone, muslim or not, would be allowed into any large mosque, anyone saying any different is a liar, to say it bluntly (look at any large mosque in this country or even abroad although the exception is one (of hundreds) in Mecca and possibly one in Jerusalem but they are not the UK). All you have to do is wash your feet, face and hands, facilities will always hospitably be available :)

Personally I think we should do what others muslim countries have done and have several religious areas of worship together (that includes a church and a synagogue), if it can work in a muslim country there is no reason it can't work here? If their are problems with London then they should move it to the largest most multi-cultural, accepting and 'forward' looking (as it is truly new/Western in design for a mosque) place in our country = Birmingham (the place does direly needs iconic landmarks) however here in London is one of the best locations for such an iconic development in the world!

By the way, there are large mosques in London: Regent's Park, East London and Morden to name a few. London inc. this area has a happy muslim population too. There is little possibility of serious midday traffic twice a year, given future transport investments (2012) when and if this gets made plus loads of 'Green' solutions/schemes available in and around London. ^^

There is unfortunately Islamaphobia in London (+UK) at all levels as illustrated with certain past and ongoing projects, in a way it is similar to Jews before WWII. As we are hosting the Olympics to stop religious hatred coming to anything like the cold war (as Arab countries are currently increasingly getting ready to defend their way of life from the US, like the USSR situation) we should show the value that made the British Empire so great and show the world light, by at least having such an iconic mosque near by to the Olympics (it isn't next to them plus quite a lot of the Olympists and viewers will be muslim), also the design so wonderfully complements it. :)

[p.s. there is so much similarity between Islam and Britain, to culture and protect this and British muslims; we should allow Islam to develop as it has done for centuries: and not push spiritual worship underground in our increasingly secular and non-christian nation. This project will help foster this especially as it would inherently promote British Islam of the past with people of all colours and to an extent cultures; and reduce imported brands/sects/fundamentalists that can only focus on small mosques where they easily emphasize/brainwash their foreign culture and agendas on to others. The evidence for this project to help such an effect is easily seen in muslim-dominated countries that promote there own version of Islam without single bodies/councils those that deviate start having problems but this is a different topic]. Thanks for the original thread.

Take Care,

yes, good points about the symbiotic relationship with the Olympics too

OperateonMe definately does have a point, but how about the reaction among non - Muslims?

I see it as a very innovative design for a mosque, could be one of the first of this kind in the world. I'm not affraid to be branded as islamophobic (coz i'm not) so I won't draw criticism on the concept or its location but building the largest, most modern mosque in London would be ironic at best. And it seems like 3/4 of the replies are somehow not confortable with the idea, how come it will get approved?

well first the organisation needs to find funding then the planning process will look at the points that have been raised here such as concerns over numbers of visitors and transport links in the area etc,

the more aloof concerns about religion and terrorist funding might get banded about, hinted at by newspapers or used by the usual NIMBY groups that suddenly appear at the hint of any large development but I cant see that having much of an impact. The proposal has barely made a ripple. More likely it wont go a head due to funding or planning permission regarding the more mundane aspects of urban life, site access and footfall.

A brilliant idea and seeing we English embrace all cultures perhaps they can embrace our culture and open it up as a football stadium

Bad joke I presume?

I very sure that kids will be playing football around the courtyards, our english kids can have their own mini-world cup with kids from all over the world (good chance of beating brazil, italy, france) in a sort-of ad-hoc stadium, if this is ever built -lets all dream!

Access is brilliant to the site and will only improve with the olympics nearby the door steps. Funding is probably the main stumbling ground and I'm sure politics will come into it. Lets all hope, I'll definately donate.

The site may now be sold off and developed into a new football stadium for West Ham.

personally i view all religions as a waste of time, and i wouldn't want to see it built for that reason. interesting initial design though - incorporate that into a sporting venue or social centre and i'd be happy.

I think this is good because it will show that muslims are welcome here having a huge mosque like this will help them no this and no that MOST pepole are NOT rasict. So bring it on. By the way how would you feel if ST.Pauls was not built ! That is a church if im correct ? So dont diss !

Rightly or wrongly I do feel a bit threatened by such a large mosque.

There is a shortage of mosque space in the area though and I'd have no problem at all with a big mosque - just not a mega one.

Appreciate this isn't exactly a logical approach.

AJPlus.co.uk
Published 19 February 2007 at 11:37
Mangera Yvars presses on with mega mosque despite ‘government opposition’

Mangera Yvars Architects has admitted it will be scaling down its ‘mega mosque’ scheme in east London, but vowed it is still ‘pressing on’ with the controversial project.
The 40 under 40 star Ali Mangera said work was still going ahead on the Newham scheme, despite reports over the weekend that the government plans to block it.

The £300 million mosque, called Abbey Mills, would be the biggest Muslim place of worship in the UK.

The scheme initially proposed to accommodate up to 70,000 worshippers on a 7ha site a stone’s throw from 2012 Olympic Park, but this number looks likely to be reduced.

Mangera said: ‘We are still working with Newham Council, and pressing on with the project. We will be scaling down the project – that is inevitable, but we don’t think these reports are accurate. There will be more news coming out very soon.’

Mangera’s comments follow media claims that the government aims to stop the scheme due to its proximity to the Olympic Park.

This is just the most recent of a long line of setbacks the architects practice has faced since agreeing to work on the project in 2001.

The last hurdle the practice faced was a petition signed by 2,500 Newham locals who opposed the building of the mosque.

It has been revealed today that the "mega-mosque" is looking more like a medium-sized mosque with a capacity of around 12,000. The plans have been scaled back with a new architect with a cheaper, less architecturally impressive design. For more information, see BBC London News tonight.

Architects sacked over designs for huge mosque
30.04.07

Too big: residents criticised the proposed Tablighi Jamaat mosque

Trustess behind plans to build Europe's largest place of worship have sacked their architects.
The Tablighi Jamaat sect took the decision after the proposals for the mosque were criticised by residents, Christian groups and even Muslim leaders.
In response, architects Ali Mangera and Ada Yvars Bravo have threatened to sue for breach of contract and defamation.
The pair drew up the plans for a £100 million mosque on 18 acres of derelict land at Abbey Mills, next to West Ham Underground station.
They envisaged a building in the style of a tented city, incorporating a prayer room, library, school, gardens, restaurants, residential accommodation and exhibition halls. It would have a capacity of 40,000, increasing to 70,000 if demand grew.
Critics argued that a building of that size would dramatically alter the character of the area.
Relations between the mosque and the local community worsened when it was claimed that Tablighi Jamaat, which has an estimated 80 million followers worldwide, has links with Islamic extremist groups.
It was described by the French intelligence services as "an antechamber of fundamentalism" and two of the 7 July London bombers attended the group's
HQ in Dewsbury, West Yorkshire, which is financed by Saudi Arabia.
In a letter to the Mayor of Newham, Sir Robin Wales, trustees of Abbey Mills mosque said they had severed links with Mr Mangera and Mr Bravo and their intermediary Abdul Khaliq Mian - an activist with George Galloway's Respect party.
The letter states: "Sadly, following unauthorised publication of design concepts and press statements having been made in the name of trustees, it was felt that the relationship with both parties could no longer continue.
"We have never intended to build a mosque the size suggested in the media. Our vision is for a development that enhances the area and provides a mosque and complex that will support our work in the Muslim faith.
"We regret we have inadvertently allowed our opponents the opportunity to use our own naivety against us but we will now address their false and disappointing accusations directly and demonstrate to the community they have nothing to fear or oppose."
Tablighi Jamaat said the new mosque's capacity was only ever going to be less than 12,000, although this would still make it the largest religious building in the country.
New plans will still include a school for 500 pupils, a visitor and conference centre and a 20-bedroom residential centre for visiting VIPs.
Mr Mangera said the trustees were reneging on agreed plans. "We were given a brief about the size of the mosque. This was discussed with Newham council and the London Development Agency and accepted by everyone," he said.
"Perhaps the trustees have been frightened off by the opposition.
"They should have responded to the criticism by speaking to the press and public instead of remaining silent for the last three years."
Mr Mangera and Mr Bravo's award-winning practice has worked on housing projects in south London, an eco-scheme in Bowand developments in Spain.