I hope the mods allow a couple of "off-topic" threads with pics from Moldova. It ain't no Ukraine, but hopefully you still find it interesting. :cool:

On our way from Odessa to Chisinau we passed through rebel state Transnistria, "independent" since the early 90s but recognized by almost no-one.

A short piece of history. The largest part of Moldova used to be a region in Romenia. After the fall of the Soviet Union Moldova intensified its relations with Romenia, and there was/is quite some speculation of Moldova becoming part of Romenia again.

One region resisted against these developments. Transnistria never was a part of Romenia: it always used to be a part of Ukraine and / or Russia. People also speak Russian here instead of Romenian.

After the fall of the Soviet Union this part of Moldova declared independance, although recognized by vitually no country on earth. Still, the Moldovan government has no power over this region, which has set up its own government, currency, border posts, etc. Its leader, Igor Smirnoff, rules the "country" like a dictactor. He likes to pretend the Soviet Union is still there and uses a lot of communist propaganda.

Therefore, Transnistria is sometimes referred to as "Europe's North-Korea". That's a bit overblown in my opinion though. Transnistria doesn't feel that much different from other countries in the region. There are quite a lot of shops, Western brands are readily availible, expensive cars ply the roads, etc.

Still, there are some differences. Besides advertising, there's also a lot of propaganda. There are a lot of soldiers on the streets, both Transnistrian as well as Russian "peace forces". People are dressed less fashionable as in the rest of Eastern-Europe. Still, there's less evidence of poverty on the streets, perhaps because there is more left of the Soviet Union's social security system.

The situation is still tense. There are several military checkpoints and I got the feeling I really standed out as a western tourist. During our stay there were terrorist attacks on a bus and a minibus, killing several people. This probably had to do with a referendum about the countries future that was due a month later.

Therefore I was a little hesistant taking pics... I didn't make many pics, but here are a couple of them:

01. Welcome to the hyper modern capital of Transnistria! :D
http://www.xs4all.nl/~davidee/OEK/TIR01.jpg

02. The Soviet Union is still alive here. The parliament building is called "Dom Sovietov" (House of the Soviets).
http://www.xs4all.nl/~davidee/OEK/TIR02.jpg

03. Again the House of the Soviets.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~davidee/OEK/TIR03.jpg

04. Party! 15 years of PMR (Transnistria's official name)
http://www.xs4all.nl/~davidee/OEK/TIR04.jpg

05. Some heroic monument...
http://www.xs4all.nl/~davidee/OEK/TIR05.jpg

06. This tank is also a monument. I didn't take pics of the real tanks near the military checkpoints around Tighina, the countries second country and the city where the "revolution" started.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~davidee/OEK/TIR06.jpg

07. Some brand new church.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~davidee/OEK/TIR07.jpg

08. The view from the apartment we rented. In the same building was the only nice restaurant of the city, as well as the "youth institute of political leadership Che Guevara" :cool:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~davidee/OEK/TIR08.jpg

09. Downtown Tighina, the countries second city. You can still find bullet holes from the revolution here. Besides that, it is not that much different from other small towns in Moldova or Ukraine.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~davidee/OEK/TIR09.jpg

10. Some minibuses in Tighina.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~davidee/OEK/TIR10.jpg

11. Tighina's "suburbs".
http://www.xs4all.nl/~davidee/OEK/TIR11.jpg

12. Tiraspol's main street. I bought quite some CD's here (especially Depeche Mode seems to be quite popular here), which costed about 2 euros each. I'm not sure how legal this is. ;)
http://www.xs4all.nl/~davidee/OEK/TIR12.jpg

13. An improvized market.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~davidee/OEK/TIR13.jpg

14. Opera building.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~davidee/OEK/TIR14.jpg

15. The main street is built extra wide for military parades. In the background you can see it continues as a normal street. ;)
http://www.xs4all.nl/~davidee/OEK/TIR15.jpg

Thanks for posting, very interesting. I was expecting it to be a little more strange and soviet. But then again, it's probably because you didn't take pictures of the military people walking around. That propaganda with the neosoviet flag looks funny, as all communist/soviet posters did. Do they really think it's making any sort of an impact on peoples opinions? :) That's more of rhetorical question.

Good pictures, I liked the first one the most :) and as a comment to this whole political situation, I just hope that Ukraine isn't forced at some point to incorporate this region. Hopefully it'll stay with Moldova.

The (few) people we spoke seemed to be very positive about the countries "independence" and about Mr. Smirnoff. I got the impression they really believed what they were saying and were not merely saying it's dangerous to do otherwise... because they also had some negative comments about the government and its bureaucracy.

Still, I don't know how much about their opinion is real and how much is "brainwashed". I got a bit a feeling it was like George Orwell's 1984... where people eventually start believing things they know are not true, just because the whole society works in such a way.

They are most definitely under influence of political propaganda, which is why it will be an enormous headache for Ukraine to incorporate this land, as it will add whatever-their-population is number of communist party voters for the next parliamentary election.

Propaganda works well under conditions of mental siege, when people believe that they are surrounded by enemies and thus turn to their government with thoughts such as "our government is not the best, but at least it's ours and it protects us", Transdnistria is exactly in such position.

Eh, if Kosovo can get independence, why not Transnistria?

Potential resolution of this problem...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/Romania_MASSR_1920.png

Moldova unifies with Romania, Transnistria granted special autonomy within Ukraine, like Crimea:yes:

Thanks for the photos, Vertigo:okay:

There's also the option of it becoming like Kaliningrad, a part of Russia not geographically connected with the mainland.

By the way Vertigo, did you notice any construction over there?
The region has everything necessary for a serious construction boom:yes:

Eh, if Kosovo can get independence, why not Transnistria?

I am not against independence for Transnistria, I can understand these people oppose their country to become to much influenced with Romania which it has never been a part of.

But I don't think the current situation (dictatorship) is the right solution...

Your idea of it becoming a seperate entity inside Ukraine doesn't sound too bad to me... but I understand from Dr. Mesofius that he doesn't find that an attractive idea (why not, if I may ask?).

The Kaliningrad solution sounds not such a good idea to me, it would be hard to keep up the countries economy if it is located so far from its motherland and it is surrounded by larger economical entities.

By the way Vertigo, did you notice any construction over there?
The region has everything necessary for a serious construction boom

Actually not... I didn't see anything under construction, and very few new buildings (except of course the famous stadium of FC Sheriff). From what I heard the economy of Transnistria isn't doing well...

By the way Vertigo, did you notice any construction over there?
The region has everything necessary for a serious construction boom:yes:

ROFL right I suppose investors are just flocking to Tiraspol! :laugh:

I support either independence of Transdnistria or it being a autonomous republic within Moldova. I don't want Transdnistria in Ukraine because it will result in 555,500 new votes for a communist party in Parliamentary elections. These people, shattered in every way by collapse of the Soviet Union, are mostly workers from all over ex-USSR who came to this region in 1950-70's. Once you add 15 years of soviet-style, anti-west propaganda, these people are a perfect addition for the electorate for Ukraine's communist party, which right now has 3% support. There is even a worse party, called "progressive socialists" who received 2.93% these last elections and ( Thank God! ) missed chance of being in the Parliament by 0.07%. If Transdnistrians start taking part in Ukrainian elections, they might play crucial role in giving the extra 100,000 votes for either of the degenerate parties.

If that's not enough, you said yourself that there were terrorist acts while you were there. Ukraine has managed to be free of wars, terrorism and ethnic cleanings, adding this "republic" could change this. Plus, it's known to have the largest arms sale blackmarket in Europe.

If anything, we should have stricter border control with this "republic". Or if people from there really want to live in Ukraine, there should be a program for them helping to relocate and provide residential space.

Very well, I understand your reasons. Still, one could think that the communist sentiments of the people should decline as soon as the region starts developing... so wouldn't it be a temporary problem?

If anything, we should have stricter border control with this "republic".

Border controls already seem to be quite strict. On the Ukrainian side I saw the European Union is assisting Ukrainian border controls.

On the Transnistrian side we had to buy ourselves into the country ("you pay a little money and then you go"). ;)

The incorporation into Ukraine would need millions straight from the budget, Ukraine is still a poor country that has better areas where to spend extra money. Besides, Ukraine is not struggling with lack of land. I really don't see any reason to add this region. Crimea is a whole messy problem, this would be worse.

Very interesting place indeed.

In a sense it does have some relation with North Korea, with small traffic, propaganda posters, and of coarse commieblocks. Then again, it still looks like a standard former soviet provincial city.

Anaways, thanks for the photos.

The incorporation into Ukraine would need millions straight from the budget, Ukraine is still a poor country that has better areas where to spend extra money. Besides, Ukraine is not struggling with lack of land. I really don't see any reason to add this region. Crimea is a whole messy problem, this would be worse.
Dr.Mesofius, this land is used to be part of Ukraine until 1939 I think, so I think it has potential to become Ukrainian land again. To solve the problems, you’ve outlined, can help the private sector capital, for example one of the biggest supermarket retail in Ukraine - "Furshet" just opened the biggest supermarket in Chisinau, spaced more then 2000 sq. m. and employing about 200 Moldovan workers, so in similar way, if for example, Tranistria become part of Ukraine, it can be declared as tax free region or region with lower tax for companies profits, so many Ukrainian companies can flow to this region spending their money to rebuilt economy. For example, retail companies, vine production companies can have their vine growing plantations there, food companies such as "Chumak", Nestle, Uniliver, can have their food fields their, so there are a lot of possibilities for Ukraine their, so I wouldn't mind if this territory will become ours, of course the strict control still will be needed for another 5-10 years.

Vertigo, thanks for pictures, very much :)

Ukraine should reunite Transdnistria with itself. Transdnistria - a part of ethnic Ukraine, gentlemen.

Dr.Mesofius, this is OUR forefathers land. I strongly object!

I sense some imperialistic sentiments, how ironic!!! :P

Imperialists covet someone else's belongings. Romanians and Russians are imperialists but not Ukrainians whose forefathers live in Transdnistria for hundreds and thousands years.

No i zaczeło się, ukraiński imperializm i sny o potędzę. Ja wszystkich ostrzegam przed Ukrainą, która zawsze będzie bandycka i faszystkowska, nic tego nie zmieni. Jedynym pocieszeniem jest fakt że Ukraina nigdy nie wejdzie do EU, kurtyna już zapadła. Drugim pocieszeniem jest nadzieja że szybko wróci tam Rosja i ucywilizuje ten naród

Imperialists covet someone else's belongings. Romanians and Russians are imperialists but not Ukrainians whose forefathers live in Transdnistria for hundreds and thousands years.
Thats cool, so what do we do with Crimea then? :)

p.s. So in practice it turns out that our Ukrainian neighbours also dont mind grabbing some land! :)

Quicksilver, Pablitisimo_Maximo, incorporation of Transdnistria might be successful and beneficial in long term, but its immediate effects will be very negative on Ukraine. Maybe a solution is to wait 20 years, when Ukraine is rich and can afford quick assimilation of this land. Take into account the amount of armed groups there and criminal activities.

bvnor7, luckily we don't form opinions on all Poles based on clinical cases like you.

No i zaczeło się, ukraiński imperializm i sny o potędzę. Ja wszystkich ostrzegam przed Ukrainą, która zawsze będzie bandycka i faszystkowska, nic tego nie zmieni. Jedynym pocieszeniem jest fakt że Ukraina nigdy nie wejdzie do EU, kurtyna już zapadła. Drugim pocieszeniem jest nadzieja że szybko wróci tam Rosja i ucywilizuje ten naród

Listen you uneducated hick poland is the biggest imperialist it occupied parts of Ukraine and Germany, and called it as there own. We don’t need to be cultured or like you said “civilized” by russians because everything they know is because of us. If anybody needs to be civilized is you and made your country. Remember who you and your country come from ass whip. Also get some education then come and talk to us.

Hey guys, I propose you take this discussion elsewhere.

You're right. So, Vertigo, when can we expect pictures of Lviv and Kyiv? Your comments are always interesting :)

Sorry, I've deleted my post about politic issues. Let's dicuss pictures here :)

@Dr. Mesofius: could take a while, I hope to post a new serie next weekend.

BTW who is the guy in your avatar? Could it be a street musician in traditional clothes I'vee seen somewhere in Urkaine?

You could have seen him in Lviv, yes.

Agree with Stas 100%.
Please, other fellow Ukrainians, don't fall into same bottomless pit our "dear friends" fell into and cannot climb out. You know what I mean.
It is 100000 times better to have a good friendly neighbour - be it woth significant Ukrainian population - than do these things.
Then again - some things are indeed up to the ppl.

CheerZ

You could have seen him in Lviv, yes.
Isn't he from those pics I posted? ;)
The ones you didn't even comment on!? :bash:

BTW, Nice photos Vertigo! I love your comments! :colgate:

Hello,

you don't often hear or see stuff from Transnistria so thanks.:)

Would you please enlighten a simple Fleming like me?

The gentleman wrote that Moldova without Transnistria has had a lot of ties with Romania in history, but Transnistria is more connected to Ukraine.
Now as I understand it, Moldovan is a Romance language like Romanian, and many people argue (if not most?) that they are in fact the same language.

But it seems that within Transnistria, none of the three languages (Russian, Ukrainian and Moldovan) have an absolute majority.
So :

-where does this considerable Moldovan presence come from?
-how well do Ukrainians and Russians get along? Is it true that a Russian can speak to a Ukrainian and vice versa and they can understand each other? Do they form one front?
- since Transnistria is located between Moldova (and Romania) and Ukraine, the Ukrainian and Moldovan presence seems to make sense, but isn't the Russian presence a lot more .. shall I say..the consequence of imperialism, like the artificial presence of Russian in Kaliningrad/Königsberg or Kyrgyzstan, knowing that these places don't even border present-day Russia (well I know Kalinigrad IS simply Russian but you know what I mean)


And for the rest, thanks for the pics, I didn't expect the place to seem that nice.:)

No i zaczeło się, ukraiński imperializm i sny o potędzę. Ja wszystkich ostrzegam przed Ukrainą, która zawsze będzie bandycka i faszystkowska, nic tego nie zmieni. Jedynym pocieszeniem jest fakt że Ukraina nigdy nie wejdzie do EU, kurtyna już zapadła. Drugim pocieszeniem jest nadzieja że szybko wróci tam Rosja i ucywilizuje ten naród

Lol, someone forgot to take his pills..?

I've never been there but I have friends from this area and can answer your questions.

Hello,

you don't often hear or see stuff from Transnistria so thanks.:)

Would you please enlighten a simple Fleming like me?

The gentleman wrote that Moldova without Transnistria has had a lot of ties with Romania in history, but Transnistria is more connected to Ukraine.
Now as I understand it, Moldovan is a Romance language like Romanian, and many people argue (if not most?) that they are in fact the same language.

But it seems that within Transnistria, none of the three languages (Russian, Ukrainian and Moldovan) have an absolute majority.
So :

Moldovan and Romanian are almost entirely identical. In Transistria Russian has an absolute majority, neither Ukrainian nor Moldovan is widely used, despite being official.

-where does this considerable Moldovan presence come from?

Not sure what you mean.

-how well do Ukrainians and Russians get along? Is it true that a Russian can speak to a Ukrainian and vice versa and they can understand each other? Do they form one front?

Yes, Russians and Ukrainian can speak without a translator, but not due to similarity of languages, but because all Ukrainians know Russian.

- since Transnistria is located between Moldova (and Romania) and Ukraine, the Ukrainian and Moldovan presence seems to make sense, but isn't the Russian presence a lot more .. shall I say..the consequence of imperialism, like the artificial presence of Russian in Kaliningrad/Königsberg or Kyrgyzstan, knowing that these places don't even border present-day Russia (well I know Kalinigrad IS simply Russian but you know what I mean)

People in Transnistria, are not as much Russian or Ukrainian, they're remaining Soviet people due to isolation. And feel most strongly connected to USSR, not to Ukraine. It doesn't matter much if they're ethnic Ukrainians or Russians, they're all assimilated soviet people who think alike.

As to history, at one point Russian Empire conquered these lands, Ukraine was also part of the Russian Empire at that time. That was first wave of settlements and second was in 20th century when people from all over USSR when there to work on the factories. There was a policy of migration and interbreeding in the Soviet Union.

Moldovan and Romanian are almost entirely identical. In Transistria Russian has an absolute majority, neither Ukrainian nor Moldovan is widely used, despite being official.
Ah that's odd, I thought none of the three languages had an absolute majority?


Not sure what you mean.
Sorry, I meant : if it's true that Transnistria has a lot of ties to Ukraine and not to Romania, how come there are still so many Moldovans there? Recent immigration?

Yes, Russians and Ukrainian can speak without a translator, but not due to similarity of languages, but because all Ukrainians know Russian.
Oh, I thought it would be mutually intelligible.:ohno:


People in Transnistria, are not as much Russian or Ukrainian, they're remaining Soviet people due to isolation. And feel most strongly connected to USSR, not to Ukraine. It doesn't matter much if they're ethnic Ukrainians or Russians, they're all assimilated soviet people who think alike.
That might be because I'm flemish, but I can't imagine being assimilated by a group when I don't speak their language as my native language?

As to history, at one point Russian Empire conquered these lands, Ukraine was also part of the Russian Empire at that time. That was first wave of settlements and second was in 20th century when people from all over USSR when there to work on the factories. There was a policy of migration and interbreeding in the Soviet Union.
Was this migration voluntary? Or were these people actually forced to move?
And why was it necessary anyway??