WH Smiths is not part of Southwark Towers, and should not be affected until the station redevelopment

All the shops under Southwark Towers are now closed and have posters about The Shard on them.
Sadly, it seemed like business as usual at PWC yesterday, and no sign of them moving out yet.
Looks like PWC have done a deal with EH to delay the development.

PWC F*** **F out of the building!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:bash: :bash:

Don't worry, they started moving out a while ago, a number of their floors have now been vacated. They are moving out in stages I believe, and should be finished next month or the month after:)

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa278/fit3xl/Note0001.jpg

This the contentious item?

...for me it is, but everyone else seems fine with it.

My employer, Arup, is holding an internal presentation for staff tonight on LBT - will let you know if any interesting tidbits come out of it. We're responsible for MEP services, as well as specialist consultancy including lighting, fire and comms.

Chances are you guys will already know most of whatever will be revealed tonight, however!

So... tidbits that you probably already knew:

- 8,000 people will use the building daily, with 200,000 passing through the transport interchange below.

- Design team is currently at RIBA Stage D - scheme design where the basic systems, layout and guts of the building are finalised. Currently working full steam ahead.

- Arup is providing facade consulting advice. The building has a triple skin - a layer of single glazing on the outside, with a winter garden behind this. A double glazed window then provides thermal envelope to the actual internals of the building. The winter garden would get too hot to use in summer, though it's possible this may also become a conditioned space.

- The environmental control systems serving the building are absolutely incredible in their complexity (due to the number of uses being served - hotel, resi, office, retail etc). The radiator at the top is a considerable cost that the developers are taking the burden of to improve the legacy of the building.

- Apparently the next 6-8 weeks will make or break this project - with PWC vacating Southwark Towers in September, if the developers want to press on they will have to commit considerable payments to Network Rail in order to get on to their land. This will be the point where the developers are committed to the project, so the coming weeks should be very interested indeed.

- If it goes ahead as planned, the building will be complete by summer 2011.

Well! Perhaps that means that the piece of cladding which has been the cause of so many tears is for one of the internal glazes and we have yet to see the beauty of the outside cladding...

- Apparently the next 6-8 weeks will make or break this project - with PWC vacating Southwark Towers in September, if the developers want to press on they will have to commit considerable payments to Network Rail in order to get on to their land. This will be the point where the developers are committed to the project, so the coming weeks should be very interested indeed.


That is quite big news!

Infact I found it all quite intersting!

Thank you very much!

Well! Perhaps that means that the piece of cladding which has been the cause of so many tears is for one of the internal glazes and we have yet to see the beauty of the outside cladding...

'So many tears'? C'mon, it's only 1 person that doesn't like it. (well, only one person that has made their feeling's known about it)

IMO, we won't know until we see a good amount on the Shard:)

yeah interesting stuff, that 6 weeks thing is scary though!

I personally can't see them NOT going ahead with it. And regarding the cladding, if anyone does have any doubts regarding quality...

THEY AREN'T GOING TO HAVE CRAP CLADDING ON LONDON'S PREMIER SKYSCRAPER, AND THE COUNTRIES FIRST 300M+ BUILDING!!!

;)

So... tidbits that you probably already knew:

- 8,000 people will use the building daily, with 200,000 passing through the transport interchange below.

- Design team is currently at RIBA Stage D - scheme design where the basic systems, layout and guts of the building are finalised. Currently working full steam ahead.

- Arup is providing facade consulting advice. The building has a triple skin - a layer of single glazing on the outside, with a winter garden behind this. A double glazed window then provides thermal envelope to the actual internals of the building. The winter garden would get too hot to use in summer, though it's possible this may also become a conditioned space.

- The environmental control systems serving the building are absolutely incredible in their complexity (due to the number of uses being served - hotel, resi, office, retail etc). The radiator at the top is a considerable cost that the developers are taking the burden of to improve the legacy of the building.

- Apparently the next 6-8 weeks will make or break this project - with PWC vacating Southwark Towers in September, if the developers want to press on they will have to commit considerable payments to Network Rail in order to get on to their land. This will be the point where the developers are committed to the project, so the coming weeks should be very interested indeed.

- If it goes ahead as planned, the building will be complete by summer 2011.


Grreat post Chief. Keep us informed. Sure will be a big project for Arup.

Hello,

This new Shard looks very impressive...
Does anyone know how rail passengers will be affected? Will trains still terminate at London Bridge? and if not where will they go and for how long?

Thanks

Will be a big project for us jimmyay, but we have several big 'uns on the go just now among many thousands of others - Leadenhall, Pinnacle, Shard are all being done by Arup.

I'm working on a little-known scheme to redevelop the former middlesex hospital just now, but it's huge - a whole city block and 100,000m^2 of floor space covering office, residential, retail, public gardens, basement car parking, plant rooms, a gym, a restaurant, a health centre, a school and affordable housing. Doesn't get the headlines because it's not tall, though!

I can't wait for this! People power will win the day as regards to it not going ahead. When do they start building it?

Will be a big project for us jimmyay, but we have several big 'uns on the go just now among many thousands of others - Leadenhall, Pinnacle, Shard are all being done by Arup.

I'm working on a little-known scheme to redevelop the former middlesex hospital just now, but it's huge - a whole city block and 100,000m^2 of floor space covering office, residential, retail, public gardens, basement car parking, plant rooms, a gym, a restaurant, a health centre, a school and affordable housing. Doesn't get the headlines because it's not tall, though!

That'll be the MAKE Candy & Candy scheme then. I'd keep that quiet if I was you as there are quite a few people on this forum who don't like it ;)

well chief, if the PR thought to contact me about it and wax lyrical about some of the nice architecture and engineering involved it might make the media ;)

Well I think I'm at risk of hi-jacking this thread so let's leave it there. If & when I do find out more about the Shard, I'll be sure to let y'all know. The fire engineering strategy has also posed considerable strategies, and then there's the whole issue of the station concourse etc.

- If it goes ahead as planned, the building will be complete by summer 2011.

Does nobody else find that impossible to believe?

yep summer 2014 more like, this would be when the whole building is complete, (all roomes fitted out to spec) Long way off, 7 years is a loooooonnnngg time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:goodnight

As long as it's externally complete by the Olympics, that's what really matters.

Does nobody else find that impossible to believe?

Tight, but not impossible.

Well it would help if PWC made haste and got out.

Most of them are out now. They have been moving two floors a week.

My Friend who lives arround the corner recieved a notice of imminent work , including the Shard, warning of the future disruption and noise etc. If local residents are getting this kind of letter then we must be very close to a start date!:)

My Friend who lives arround the corner recieved a notice of imminent work , including the Shard, warning of the future disruption and noise etc. If local residents are getting this kind of letter then we must be very close to a start date!:)

Indeed. Hopefully this means August/September for demolition work, not December as suggested recently. :)

Will be a big project for us jimmyay, but we have several big 'uns on the go just now among many thousands of others - Leadenhall, Pinnacle, Shard are all being done by Arup.

I'm working on a little-known scheme to redevelop the former middlesex hospital just now, but it's huge - a whole city block and 100,000m^2 of floor space covering office, residential, retail, public gardens, basement car parking, plant rooms, a gym, a restaurant, a health centre, a school and affordable housing. Doesn't get the headlines because it's not tall, though!


yes that's a big one, though i think the planners are going to chop it a bit arent they?

great to be involved with big buildings/projects. have managed a few large large blocks myself down the years - never a dull moment.

I was told September for PWC leaving, demolition starting very soon after. Hoardings should start appearing within the next few weeks, apparently.

July 2011 is 4 full years away, and the scheme is already at Stage D. I don't think it's impossible... tight, but not impossible. It may well slip somewhat, but as wjfox says it will more than likely be externally complete by then.

On site at the moment is a small piling rig. Foundation piles for a demolition tower crane anyone?

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/cranesetcphotos/shard6.jpg

I hate all this rumour and conjecture. The project is critical, and some very big egos have a lot at stake here. Its a matter of time, slowly, but surely, we're getting there. There's a gladdening of hearts when we see photos of equipment on site.

I hate all this rumour and conjecture. The project is critical, and some very big egos have a lot at stake here. Its a matter of time, slowly, but surely, we're getting there. There's a gladdening of hearts when we see photos of equipment on site.

Well said, unfortunately many business people do not see visionary projects such the Shard as being economically worthwhile and therefore may be hesitant to directly fund a skyscraper such as this. However what people may forget here is that well over half of this project is composed of apartments and a hotel to which the owner or operator in question is more likely to view architecture as being important, (for example the Burj Al-Arab)

Sorry for making a point not directly relevant to the Shard but I feel that it may be an important point to make with regards to mix-used projects. To which the Shard will probably become the epitome of within the country if and when it is build.

One of the principal dependencies for moving people out of Southwark Towers was the availability of interim office space at Hays Galleria. This will house the largest single group currently remaining in Southwark Towers until the permanent location at More London 7 is completed.

Hays Galleria refurbishment was due to be completed in July, but the subcontractor did not complete on time.

It's now been confirmed that the move to Hays will take place on the weekend of 4 August.

interesting update, thanks

News on the Shard site has been updated with 'new' articles...

"19 Dec 2005 | STUNNING RENZO PIANO DESIGN FOR 25 LONDON BRIDGE STREET UNVEILED"

"04 Apr 2006 | SOUTHWARK GIVES GREEN LIGHT FOR REDEVELOPMENT OF 25 LONDON BRIDGE STREET

"19 Sep 2006 | £196M INTERIM DEVELOPMENT FINANCE SECURED FOR SHARD"

Weird... Maybe more to come? I don't know when it was updated, could have been weeks ago, could have been minutes ago.

I don't remember the 'London Bridge Quarter is the capital’s most exciting and ambitious new development' section under 'Loctaion' either?

Updated Timeline...

http://www.shardlondonbridge.com/images/timeline/development_programme.gif

So demolition start in September/October, and construction start around May 2008:)

Well, I can't trust a word they say anymore, as they seem to update that timeline every few months with more delays.

yeah, they usually update the website every two years.

Well, I can't trust a word they say anymore, as they seem to update that timeline every few months with more delays.

I don't know, I think this could turn out to be correct, everything is currently on track. I didn't think construction would be starting as early as May though!

I don't know, I think this could turn out to be correct, everything is currently on track. I didn't think construction would be starting as early as May though!

Its more than likely 9 months of basement construction though, as the superstructure doesn't rise above ground level until January 2009

Yes, it's just I thought that Southwark towers would have taken about a year to take down for some reason...Maybe I'm getting it confused with another project? I don't know...

Anyway, the Shard thread will soon be able to join it's buddies in the construction forum:D

http://www.magix-photos.com/mediapool00/54/48/6F/30/77/16/11/DA/85/15/20/23/52/27/29/83/oma/10/EB1EF3B08ACB11DB83C5889252273AB1.jpg

Bit smaller:)

http://www.magix-photos.com/mediapool00/54/48/6F/30/77/16/11/DA/85/15/20/23/52/27/29/83/oma/10/EB1EF3B08ACB11DBA17775E852273AB1.jpg

Keep in mind this is missing 3 150m+ buildings
nice of it! :)

looks like Bishopsgate has been on slim fast...

I love this building, I've been waiting for it since the first time i saw the project in Renzo Piano's web site. I hope to see it rising above the London's skyline soon.

What is the floor plan shape of the shard.....from what i make it out to be it's pentagonal?

What is the floor plan shape of the shard.....from what i make it out to be it's pentagonal?

Its got more sides than that, maybe 8-10 sides

Its a really weird and messed up floor plan. I tried to model it once.... urgh

I posted the GE models on this forum last year with the precise shape of the tower and floor plans. But apparently they have been deleted since.

I don't know if it's been mentioned before but in the service yard to southwark towers in St Thomas Street there are some steels that are used for construction. They are look about the right size for a base for a tower crane.

I don't know if it's been mentioned before but in the service yard to southwark towers in St Thomas Street there are some steels that are used for construction. They are look about the right size for a base for a tower crane.

Just walked past on the way back to sunny Bermondsey Street from a Borough Market curry at the rather wonderful Mango Tree and was about to post the same thing, there's now a big red crane section an' all.

seems to me then as soon as the last person exits demolition will begin asap no delay just straight in.:banana:

Keltbray have the £8m contract to demolish Southwark Towers and as anticipated they have been busy building the base for a Wolff tower crane to be used for the demolition.

This one can definitely be changed from 'App' to 'Demo'.

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/cranesetcphotos/shard7.jpg

WHOOOOO!

The Shard is coming!

Thanks Cranesetc!!! You are a huge help!

hurrah, great stuff - looks like Q3/4 will see the slow climb of scaffolding and white plastic wrapping, and by Xmas, well, it will be on its way down.

Get some photos of the shiny beast before it disappears for ever.

Where's Will? Can we change this to demolition?

Southwark Towers

This weekend, around 300 personnel currently in Southwark Towers will relocate to office space around Hays Galleria.

This leaves one final group of around 250 who will move out to office space in the Strand area on the weekend of 1st and 2nd September.

The developers will take vacant possession of Southwark Towers on 3rd September.


New London Bridge House

Tenants in New London Bridge house have now been placed on notice that they must move out around June 2008.

:cheers:

And so it begins...

As part of the "London Bridge Quarter", does anyone know if that block to the immediate north-west of the station is being redeveloped? I'm talking about the very old, crumbling, piss-stained tunnel that crosses Duke Street Hill and links the station with London Bridge and the other buildings along the river. It would be a crying shame if nothing was done about that...


http://i10.tinypic.com/6bjhvgi.jpg

nipped down at lunch to see the infamous but momentous crane ... doesnt seem to be the same 'over-night erections' you see in other developments. In fact there was no one around save for the red stump! I suppose they still have a couple of weeks before they can dig their teeth in.

Glad Keltbray got this contract as they have been making a real effort lately at their other sites to communicate the progress they are making. They also seem to be faster than most at pulling buildings down.

p.s. good move Will.

They also seem to be faster than most at pulling buildings down.



Why dont they just use HMS Belfast for that?Boom Boom the towers are down and construction can start!

Strange.

I have raised a sensible question early in the afternoon.
Sy dropped an unnecessarily stupid and provocative answer.

Now I find out Sy's answer have disappeared from this thread. Indeed, that's a 'good move', Will.

But I fail to understand why my question has disappeared as well. Like many other people I provide this forum with loads of informations. It takes me time to collect these infos and to write down the posts. On the other hand I have asked one question. Just one question. But a sensible question.

Apparently that was too much for you Will. You are not worth being a mod mate. I now better understand Mullatokid and other guys who flew away of this forum. Ban me for life. Please.:) Cehcl your pm/ I asked you to delete my account. Thanks.
End of the debate.

Wjfox explained why this threads here.What else do you want?

As part of the "London Bridge Quarter", does anyone know if that block to the immediate north-west of the station is being redeveloped? I'm talking about the very old, crumbling, piss-stained tunnel that crosses Duke Street Hill and links the station with London Bridge and the other buildings along the river. It would be a crying shame if nothing was done about that...


http://i10.tinypic.com/6bjhvgi.jpg

I think the Corporation of London have offices here as they have a large crest on the building. Agreed it is well past its sell by date. I have always thought it's an ideal spot for a tallish, slim tower whether office or resi.

As part of the "London Bridge Quarter", does anyone know if that block to the immediate north-west of the station is being redeveloped? I'm talking about the very old, crumbling, piss-stained tunnel that crosses Duke Street Hill and links the station with London Bridge and the other buildings along the river. It would be a crying shame if nothing was done about that...


http://i10.tinypic.com/6bjhvgi.jpg

It’s called Colechurch House and has had a couple of proposals for redevelopment over the years, none of which has come to anything.
This design was by EP Associates for a 250 bed hotel and what was called a “forum” space at ground level, quite a nice design I think. This view is looking down Duke St Hill towards Tooley St.

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa278/fit3xl/London337.jpg

This was an earlier proposal by Kenzie Lovell. This view is looking up Duke St Hill.

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa278/fit3xl/London338.jpg

Strange.

I have raised a sensible question early in the afternoon.
Sy dropped an unnecessarily stupid and provocative answer.

Now I find out Sy's answer have disappeared from this thread. Indeed, that's a 'good move', Will.

But I fail to understand why my question has disappeared as well. Like many other people I provide this forum with loads of informations. It takes me time to collect these infos and to write down the posts. On the other hand I have asked one question. Just one question. But a sensible question.

Apparently that was too much for you Will. You are not worth being a mod mate. I now better understand Mullatokid and other guys who flew away of this forum. Ban me for life. Please.:) Cehcl your pm/ I asked you to delete my account. Thanks.
End of the debate.

Dont forget to close the door on your way out.

What is it with some of these drama queens on here?

he could have simply said he thought it was wrong his question was removed, and perhaps ask for it to be reinstated.

perhaps jef will grow up one day. cant be much fun having a mental age of 12 or 13..

nice to see this thread on the construction forum also.

^^ Yes, it feels great to see this has finally made it to demolition.

Also I agree; why all the pouting on such a great day..?

I suppose they still have a couple of weeks before they can dig their teeth in.


I would hope so, given that the building is still occupied.

Dont forget to close the door on your way out.

Fuck OFF. Your pm was beyond understanding.lol.

perhaps jef will grow up one day. cant be much fun having a mental age of 12 or 13..

I hate racism and I hate racist bastards like you have shown to be in the skybar.

now now children, settle down!

can somebody delete some of these posts as they are going wildly off topic ;)

Anyway back to topic. I would imagine this tower would be coming down quicker than 20FC & Drapers as they were older buildings & had asbestos etc whereas this is relatively new & appears to be mainly brick & glass. Does anybody know if the core & floors are concrete or Steel?

As part of the "London Bridge Quarter", does anyone know if that block to the immediate north-west of the station is being redeveloped? I'm talking about the very old, crumbling, piss-stained tunnel that crosses Duke Street Hill and links the station with London Bridge and the other buildings along the river. It would be a crying shame if nothing was done about that...


http://i10.tinypic.com/6bjhvgi.jpg


I think the tunnel/bridge itself will be going as part of the London Bridge Station redevelopment. I've not noticed it in any of the renders for the station anyway.

I never liked Jef, he never had anything nice to say. Nice to see this building getting demolished.

Ok what the hell happened :p Another episode of the charming soap opera that is SSC (the Brummy and Manc forums are the most exiting ;) )

Anyway, a lot of the stuff on the south bank riverside really needs to go. Imagine something like Gunwharf Quays, excellent waterside restaurants and entertainment. So much better than the dross that fills the gap now.

Time for me to be the professional....as thats my profession! This tower is going to be the greatest addition to MY BELOVED TOWN...and...remember my name!...I started thhe first positive thread for it...I am not going anywhere...I am back on my terms!

good mark :) im glad.

Hi Mulattokid!!:)

good lord, what's wrong with you people. this is a happy place. It is for me anyway. When SSC starts to take over your life, take a time out.

And at such an exciting time in London's genesis. Oh dear. Hey ho,

Time for me to be the professional....as thas my profession! This tower is going to be the greatest addition to MY BELOVED TOWN...and...remember my name!...I started thhe first positive thread for it...I am not going anywhere...I am back on my terms!

alreet sport, good to see you back, bit of a breather is never a bad thing, and by god there's a smeg load of stuff going on. mostly demolition, but that's only the start.

hi mark x

Why dont they just use HMS Belfast for that?Boom Boom the towers are down and construction can start!

Might miss and hit the ugly hospital next door...

Wonder if they'll start to wrap it up before the all the office staff are out? They could at least start the scaffolding?

I like Jef. Hello Jef.

Strange.

I have raised a sensible question early in the afternoon.
Sy dropped an unnecessarily stupid and provocative answer.

Now I find out Sy's answer have disappeared from this thread. Indeed, that's a 'good move', Will.

But I fail to understand why my question has disappeared as well. Like many other people I provide this forum with loads of informations. It takes me time to collect these infos and to write down the posts. On the other hand I have asked one question. Just one question. But a sensible question.

Apparently that was too much for you Will. You are not worth being a mod mate. I now better understand Mullatokid and other guys who flew away of this forum. Ban me for life. Please.:) Cehcl your pm/ I asked you to delete my account. Thanks.
End of the debate.I made a posting earlier yesterday on this thread re the title of this thread which has disappeared as has a answer from another poster to my point. Can someone explain why these posts have disappeared, please?

I never liked Jef, he never had anything nice to say. Nice to see this building getting demolished.

Ditto

Welcome back mullattokid too! I still haven't replied to your last PM, but I can at least tell you I'm feeling a bit better right now :)

And now...I'm off on holiday to thr Scottish Highlands for a week! See all you SSC'ers in a week! I better see lots of progress on these projects or there'll be hell to pay! lol, bye! :D

Jef, get a grip man! You get angry at the tiniest of things. If you expect us to treat you with respect then start acting like a responsible adult. And don't pretend that you provide priceless information that no one else can get hold of. It is readily available out there. I sometimes think you take everything we say as a personal attack on you. You have an ego as big as the millennium dome. We don't care who you are or what you do, you are just a dude on the Internet, just like the rest of us. Get over it. :)

Hey Guys! Well what a welcome! Im genuinly choked :)

I needed to take a break and keep an eye on what else is going on outside of here...I can strongly recommend it. The above situation happens when one takes it all too seriously.

I have been watching you all with interest (sounds omnipotent...) and missed you.....back to topic :)

when/if this bloody thing gets built, historians one hundred years from now will stumble across a buried skyscrapercity forum server and will no doubt be fascinated by the wealth of personal tales and the trauma that this thing has caused! :lol:

Jef, get a grip man!

To be fair he does provide a particular analysis of the info that is out there that is often useful, although other people with financial knowledge come to a different conclusion anything can end up going either way in reality so it is interesting to hear about the different potential mechanisms in bite sized chunks.

Welcome back Mark. I loved Jef's contributions. He always provided the right info at the right time.

As for the Shard, I'm happy it's in the demolition stage after so many years. However, did the Shard receive the necessary funds to build the tower? Or are they just speculatively demolishing the existing towers in the hope some funds come through?

Whats all the drama about? Where is the love?

While a lot of people make valuable contributions surely most people here appreciate that Jef is the man in the know and he takes the time to find and post so I say give the man a break.

Great to see some work going on after so long! :cheers:

Looks like the next few weeks will be interesting in regards to the chance of this project going ahead.

Whats all the drama about? Where is the love?

While a lot of people make valuable contributions surely most people here appreciate that Jef is the man in the know and he takes the time to find and post so I say give the man a break.

Unfortunately, Jef has a rather inflated opinion of himself. He rarely quotes the sources of his info, preferring to take all the credit himself. And when it comes to his opinions, he frequently gets things wrong. It was him that kept bleating on about how the Pinnacle and Heron would never get funding; that 22 Marsh Wall and some of the other Docklands towers would be delayed for years; that Blackfriars Road would never become an area for highrises; that UNESCO would block the City's development forever, etc.

All I did was move the LBT thread to the construction forum - which is where it belongs now, since a crane is arriving on site and work is starting on the project. I then deleted a couple of posts where he complained about this and began to de-rail the thread. It was Friday afternoon, I was relaxing and chilling out, enjoying the sunshine...... then suddenly I'm getting furious PM's from Jef wanting his account deleted immediately. I've never seen such a ridiculous overreaction in my life.

If he wants to leave, then fine. This forum doesn't just revolve around him; it's about everyone's contribution - and besides, we still have a number of valuable news sources, e.g. London Lad, DarJoLe, gothicform, Luke and various people in the industry.

^^^ As I argued at the time, certainly the strident belief that EH/UNESCO would block future talls across London forever was just incredulousness! I recall loose talk of this tower + Beetham, Victoria, 20FS, 100Middlesex all biting the dust.

According to Jef, most of the London projects are looking quite unlikely now:

"This pano is just a vision. Only a couple of towers will be built by 2012 in the best case scenario. Today only the Broadgate Tower is under construction and only the amazing Leadenhall Building is confirmed to start construction in Q2 2008 for delivery in 2011.

Other significant towers such as the Shard, Heron, Bishopsgate and Riverside South may start construction in late 2008/early 2009 but uncertainties are rising with the recent crash in the property and equity markets."

Jef on SSP a few hours ago.

Scaremongering rubbish. By its very definition a "best case" scenario would see ALL the towers built.

Please don't quote him anymore - he's brigged on this forum anyway.

Oh, don't worry, I wont:)

Jef is one of the most professional contributors on this forum and I value his input. He has been nothing but curteous to me. A real loss to the community. :ohno:

lol this thread is funny!

Jef is one of the most professional contributors on this forum and I value his input. He has been nothing but curteous to me. A real loss to the community. :ohno:
The world will still go round without him. Not a big loss.

lol - i love it when people get worked up over such petty things on this forum. The vow's to NEVER return (usually proclaimed in the style of some sort of wise old oriental warrior with an inflated sense of importance - "i have been shamed, i shall never return to this place") are always good, and never last very long. :nuts:

God, I've only been a member for a week but alreadly I have been observer to an argument worthy of Hollyoaks, (I don't watch it but my mother does). I hope nothing bad comes of it, let's make up people!

:hug:

Still, back on track, fantastic news of the Shard. Finally, the first project that attracted me to this forum and kickstarted my two year long lurking session looks set to begin! Still, let us all look forward to the other projects that are already well underway, e.g Leadenhall and Broadgate.

God, I've only been a member for a week but alreadly I have been observer to an argument worthy of Hollyoaks, (I don't watch it but my mother does).

You keep telling yourself that mate... da nile ain't just a river in Egypt ;)

JEF contributes more info than anyone else, I realise he is a bit of a loose canon, but come guys we want the info , give him a break

He provides us with loads of info, and even if part of it can be found on the internet, he is making quite an effort to post them for us to read.

Moreover, he is very cautious not negative nor against London. People seems to mixed up everything. Being cautious is one thing, being negative is another.

when/if this bloody thing gets built, historians one hundred years from now will stumble across a buried skyscrapercity forum server and will no doubt be fascinated by the wealth of personal tales and the trauma that this thing has caused! :lol:

^^ :lol: :lol:

He provides us with loads of info, and even if part of it can be found on the internet, he is making quite an effort to post them for us to read.

Moreover, he is very cautious not negative nor against London. People seems to mixed up everything. Being cautious is one thing, being negative is another.



I could not wait to get ont the Jef thread this morning.

Whats the progress on the Jef project? Is this project still continuing or dead in the water? Has it been refused permission? My only problem with this project is being curtious in listening other peoples views and critisims. LAck of those qualities truely is a sign of immaturity.

On a less important issue...I really cannot see the Shard being cancelled...under any circumstances. The 'luxury' end of the housing market is not the same as the 'housing market'..It is sponsored by the wealthy of the world community.

the only thing that could cause it to be delayed (not cancelled) IMO is escalating construction costs and lack of skilled contractors, all employed on other major projects. V.much doubt that - if Mace got the construction / project contract (as we've been led to believe) they will have planned everything out behind the scenes. Should consortium members sell out now for a tasty profit, I'm sure they'll be another willing investor (Arab States or Temasek, the investment arm of the Singapore government perhaps. Everyone wants a piece of London, and its a open market to invest in)

£8m seems a paltry amount of money for a years work bringing Southwark Towers down - wonder what sort of profit Keltbray make on that after stripping out their costs.......

OMI, Of all projects, this is the one that will be Kens Phallus...Remember that Thatchers is 1CS, which will be put in the shade. I am sure any shortcummings will be dealt with.

He provides us with loads of info, and even if part of it can be found on the internet, he is making quite an effort to post them for us to read.

But this info will come out anyway, without jef.
Look at it this way: with no jef to give us early info about a project, the waiting time until construction gets shorter :)

So good to see Mark posting again :D

£8m seems a paltry amount of money for a years work bringing Southwark Towers down - wonder what sort of profit Keltbray make on that after stripping out their costs.......

For comparison with other Keltbray contracts:

Riverbank House £2.2m
Drapers Gardens £5.3m
20FS £13.5m
Pinnacle £4m
Walbrook £4.5m

20FS is relatively costly because it is top hung like 122 Leadenhall plus there was asbestos to remove.

probably quite a lot, remember they are not exactly having top pay for materials etc

20FS is relatively costly because it is top hung like 122 Leadenhall plus there was asbestos to remove.

Thats interesting ..is that what that huge box is on the top of 20FS? Does it contain the supporting business? I always assumed it was a design feature.

Hi Jorgen! Hi Ismail! ;)

Thats interesting ..is that what that huge box is on the top of 20FS? Does it contain the supporting business? I always assumed it was a design feature.



Yes it does - see the post of old pics in the 20FS thread.

hi im new to this and this is my first post!
i was wandering if the shard was actually going to happen! i think it is but im not sure am i right?

They have some funding issues at the moment... give it another 4-6 weeks and we'll know for sure.

They have some funding issues at the moment... give it another 4-6 weeks and we'll know for sure.

thanks mate!

Yes it does - see the post of old pics in the 20FS thread.


Great stuff! thanks!

Good news indeed! Although, as is common this country, the Shard is by no mean certain, the demolition of such a large building as Southwark Towers is yet another step in the right direction. Lets hope that by this time next year we can seen the establisment of some steelwork.

For comparison with other Keltbray contracts:

Riverbank House £2.2m
Drapers Gardens £5.3m
20FS £13.5m
Pinnacle £4m
Walbrook £4.5m

20FS is relatively costly because it is top hung like 122 Leadenhall plus there was asbestos to remove.

thanks for that - v.interesting. When you say Walbrook, you mean Bucklersbury House? Its a monster, far bigger than Crosby Court (Pinnacle), and only slightly more expensive to demolish...... do you mean the Walbrook (Minerva scheme)?

That's a big assed contract for 20 Fenchurch Street. Cripes. They've been on site at 20 FC for yee ages, that asbestos must been a bugger to removed.

do you mean the Walbrook (Minerva scheme)?



Yes

LBT is integral to TfLs accomodation strategy and it will house TfL Corporate. Internal emails have finalised seating/desk plans for the tower. We've signed a lease for the bottom floors of the tower and are due to move in the coming years as the company are consolidating their offices in the Southwark area, close to London's bureaucracy leaving a few offices in Victoria, close to Whitehall and Parliament. The first part of the move is to Palestra, starting January 2008. I fully expect this tower to be built and am bemused as to why people still have doubts surrounding it. It is a done deal.

I fully expect this tower to be built and am bemused as to why people still have doubts surrounding it. It is a done deal.

Seating plans are all very well, and I'm grateful you've shared this information.

But the point still remains: the funding issues need resolving...

If Sellar's consortium do not proceed with the Shard they will have to pay Drivers Jonas and TfL hefty fines. Something else for the developers to think about.

Although the apetite for risk has declined recently in the corporate sector due to sub-prime lending worries in the USA, prime London property is still seeing significant investment. This is exemplified by the decision to proceed with the Walbrook development, with 445,000 sq ft of office space and Hines's recent decision to develop an air rights development over Cannon Street station with 377,000 sq ft of space.

This is just along one street in London.

That the Thameslink 2000 project now has planning permission and full government funding of £5.5 bn as signalled by the recent Government Railways paper further underlines the inevitability of this project.

...LBT is integral to TfLs accomodation strategy and it will house TfL Corporate. Internal emails have finalised seating/desk plans for the tower. We've signed a lease for the bottom floors of the tower and are due to move in the coming years as the company are consolidating their offices in the Southwark area, close to London's bureaucracy.....

Yet another smart move by our esteemed leader....Consolidating public offices (which generally employ more local/less trained but with potential) employees, from Tower bridge all along the bank to London Bridge. A large stretch of this run down area in the centre of London will soon sparkle and feel like a new place...not to mention the regular Thames fair a bit further down by the Globe. A wonderful new hotel at Southwark: Beetham etc

Its feeling like London is growing from the insde...a diseased and forgotten part of a lung being repaired and adding to the overall optimum function. Infact, areas formally uninviting are being given a new lease of life...how is that for real urban regeneration.

:nocrook:

They have some funding issues at the moment... give it another 4-6 weeks and we'll know for sure.

Why?...whats happening in 4-6 weeks....

If I remember correctly, the consortium will be moving on to land that is owned by Network Rail, and will have to pay alot of money or something, and if they do that it will mean they are definately pushing on with the project.

Can someone clear that up a little?

^^ Correct...

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=14429201#post14429201

hmmm....so they will finally reach the "put up or shut up" point of no return....

anybody taking bets as to which way it will go?...:)

I'll place quite a large bet on 'they will proceed with The Shard':)

Back in reality.....

Looking at the way the global financial markets are functioning at the moment and the economy generally, it may well be that we are starting to go into a fairly severe recession within the next 12 months, much like in the early 90's.

I think any tower not pre-let or which hasnt started construction within this period is unlikely to get built for 5 years. its a REAL act of faith in the future now to proceed without tenants.

confidence in gordon's "no more boom and bust" economy has changed subtly over the last 6 months and particularly in the last month as worries have crept in from overseas but also at home where the government has done nothing to stop a dangerous credit bubble emerging over the past few years, the full implications of which are only now becoming painfully evident to people. Fingers crossed everything turns out ok but do not be in the least bit surprised if an awful lot of projects come to a shuddering halt very soon.

I think any tower not pre-let or which hasnt started construction within this period is unlikely to get built for 5 years. its a REAL act of faith in the future now to proceed without tenants.

Luckily The Shard has a number of pre lets, and Leadenhall will be U/C, and so Will Bishopsgate then! Heron will be the only tower not quite U/C or (possibly) not let in 12 months in the city.

Within the next 12 months I doubt we'll see any structures rising from the ground, we will probably have a lot of basements made up though.

In my opinion we really just have to wait and see , as we have seen in the past its never secure, and I personally only believe it when I see it rising, Im hoping to god they build this, its going to be such an asset to future London, but I cant help have a little element of doubt.

Right, I just want to put all these doubts that are creaping into the London projects, in to prespective.
Can any one tell me when was the last time any building that got as far as puting hoardings and carrying out demolition of the existing building ( i am not even going so far as securing 2 large pre lets , which LBT has) was then cancelled or not built in in LONDON leaving large empty crater, during any part of the last 30 years.

I'm sorry but I'm getting really board with this doom and gloom, it's almost as if we are willing the projects to be cancelled :bash:

^^^ Agreed..there is nothing wrong with realism, but lets be factual too!

Our economy is still one of (if not) the best in the world but there is nothing much we can do about the USA economy 's hiccups or others. For the purposes of these projects, thank goodness we have a Primeminister who was of late the most successful ever Chancellor!

As I said before, there is too much riding on this particular project. If anything will be completed I am sure it will be this.

In my opinion there won't be an actual recession, perhaps a year or so with low growth but the UK economy is rather resilient.

There's scaffolding going up on the St Thomas St facade of Southwark Towers!

Holy shit...!! :D

Hallelujah! praise the onslaught of the white sheet of death!

For real? Wow! That's, that's, fucking great isn't it! :D

hooray! i also noticed yesterday when i was cycling round the city that crosby court is BEING SMASHED TO BITS really quickly! :banana:

BEING SMASHED TO BITS

:cheers:

There's scaffolding going up on the St Thomas St facade of Southwark Towers!

So there is! (Yes, okay I was bored this evening and thought what the hell, I'll go and take a look).

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1130/1096084989_d869fea350_b.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1308/1096090371_ae23aa65a5_b.jpg

fOOKINECK!

Just before it disappears forever, we shall have to commemorate the building, its an interesting piece of architecture you know? the Mirror Cladding is certainly an interesting feature.

Somehow the scale of that scaffolding is not befitting for this building!

@Darren
Worth posting in the WDN, I'd suggest -

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=418897

They're always moaning about the lack of progress in there.

Thanks for the photos. Looks like this scaffolding is to facilitate the tieing in of the tower crane to the building when it gets erected.

As the twins from Big Brother often say...

O. M. Geeeeeeee!!!!!!

:banana: :banana: :banana:

Wow indeed, looks like things are finally hotting up at London Bridge ;)

the building looks huge

The world’s stock markets have regained well over half of the losses of last week so let’s hope that any recession doesn’t occur for the next few years. If the economy remains at its current level is it likely that the Shard, Heron, Leadenhall etc, will be build?

Thanks for the photos. Looks like this scaffolding is to facilitate the tieing in of the tower crane to the building when it gets erected.

thanks - certainly doesn't look as structurally robust as the stuff Keltbray surround buildings with prior to the plastic death wrap (it looks a v.light scaffolding structure to be fair), but all the same, its good tangible evidence of on site activity. Viva la Keltbray.

Smoggie, you got a scoop there - well done sport!

fOOKINECK!

Just before it disappears forever, we shall have to commemorate the building, its an interesting piece of architecture you know? the Mirror Cladding is certainly an interesting feature.I was never keen on it's external looks, really did look very dated. But I do agree that it is a interesting piece of architecture.

What most photos taken of this building don't show is that the building is made up of 3 spokes which strut out from different angles to each other. These 3 spokes make up the small floors. So you might get one department in one spoke and another dept in the other two. Where the spokes meet is where the main lift shafts are and this central core area forms a triangular like shape.

What I particularly liked about this design, having worked in this building for many years, are the small, light and airy floors this building has. No large floor plates much loved by companies today, just nice small floors - the 3 spokes.

If only modern skyscrapers could be designed, at least internally like this, it would make a superior work environment in contrast to the big boxy cw style with horrible massive floors. This is where Broadgate is a bit different to the norm, and why I partly like it because the floorplates are pretty big but are very airy. Everyone gets to be next to or near a window and see the sun. This, I think, is the most important part of what offices should be about as so many hours of a person's time are spent in them.

On a nearby note...

Not quite a complete reclad of Guys Hospital, but an improvement in the area anyway:

Heatherwick's 'Boiler Suit' transforms approach to Guy's Hospital
http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/2865

Monday 13 August 2007 London SE1 website team

Renowned designer Thomas Heatherwick has helped to transform the entrance to Guy's Hospital as part of a £2 million improvement project.

Heatherwick is incredible, but I'm not sure about that. Would like to see what it looks like in the daytime.

[quote]If only modern skyscrapers could be designed, at least internally like this, it would make a superior work environment in contrast to the big boxy cw style with horrible massive floors.[/quoute]

they are though. for example the diamond in istanbul.
http://www.skyscrapernews.com/news.php?ref=1045

Heatherwick is incredible, but I'm not sure about that. Would like to see what it looks like in the daytime.

Oh i wondered what that was, dont worry it looks really good in the day too!

[quote]If only modern skyscrapers could be designed, at least internally like this, it would make a superior work environment in contrast to the big boxy cw style with horrible massive floors.[/quoute]

they are though. for example the diamond in istanbul.
http://www.skyscrapernews.com/news.php?ref=1045I've should've said towers that are designed for this country. I know there are some superb towers round the world, but, I wasn't aware of this one though. It's nice, but not sure about the the base of it.

Smoggie, you got a scoop there - well done sport!

:cheers: Always glad to be of service!

Construction News magazine -

Hollandia, Cleveland Bridge and a Belgium firm are bidding for the the Shard's £30m steel contract which will see the winning firm install 12,000 tons of the material.

PC Harrington and O'Rouke are bidding for the £20m concrete contract to build the property's core.

A dutch firm going by the name of Schalaflamburgonblah are in negotiations for a pre-construction contract worth £50m to provide the cladding .

Bids are to be submitted over the next month with the winners announced by the end of the year.

^^^ Many thanks Luke!!! Anyone still doubting this project?

Me. "Schalaflamburgonblah"?! That's got to be a joke!

Looks like it's full steam ahead for the greatest proposal in Europe:)

:cheers:

^^^ Many thanks Luke!!! Anyone still doubting this project?Me. It all looks like good news but they'll need to start building the structure before I believe it. :)

Me. "Schalaflamburgonblah"?! That's got to be a joke!

I may have been a bit loose with the spelling. :)

Me. It all looks like good news but they'll need to start building the structure before I believe it. :)

I have to agree, i love this building sooooo much, infact it's what drew me to SSC a couple of years ago. I cant wait to see this going up, but that is what i need to see to believe it i guess.....

Me. "Schalaflamburgonblah"?! That's got to be a joke!

You are needing to shay it in a Dutch accent, yesh? :D

The world’s stock markets have regained well over half of the losses of last week so let’s hope that any recession doesn’t occur for the next few years. If the economy remains at its current level is it likely that the Shard, Heron, Leadenhall etc, will be build?

FTSE down another 3% today , 10% from peak in July, which qualifies as a crash. Get the feeling the economic situation is going to seriously unwind now. :ohno:

Me. "Schalaflamburgonblah"?! That's got to be a joke! I went skiing here once....

In other vaguely related Shard news....

Financial Times

Simon Halabi is considering legal action against the former owners and managers of Esporta, the health and fitness chain he bought for £476m, after its parent company was placed in administration.

The property investor is resigned to losing the business he bought only nine months ago and is expected to bear losses of more than £100m people close to him say.

CLS Holdings, one of the partners behind the Shard, will publish their financial report on 17th September.

http://www.clsholdings.com/clsholdings/uploads/press/1NoticeofInterimResults15August2007.pdf

FTSE down another 3% today , 10% from peak in July, which qualifies as a crash. Get the feeling the economic situation is going to seriously unwind now. :ohno:

I´m just going to shut up about the whole finance side of things! Frankly fate conspires against me, I feel that by coming on here every major project is going to divebomb.

Sorry about this everybody.

:(

^^ Nah the US economy is having a prob, the UK might hiccup, but we have never been as strong..its a miracle really....

The World is in mass dept and we need to face it :ohno:

^^ Nah the US economy is having a prob, the UK might hiccup, but we have never been as strong..its a miracle really....

Thats what I thought too, I can't see it affecting the proposals so much that they won't go ahead...

The World is in mass dept and we need to face it :ohno:

I am sure we'll survive. And how this affects the Shard, a building with a good amount of space pre-let already...

FTSE down another 3% today , 10% from peak in July, which qualifies as a crash. Get the feeling the economic situation is going to seriously unwind now. :ohno:

To put it into context, the FTSE has just dropped below 6000, in December 2003 it was around 3600. Stories like the US sub prime lending create uncertainty and the markets don't like uncertainty but my guess is that it will be a short term blip rather than anything longer term.

Construction News magazine -

Hollandia, Cleveland Bridge and a Belgium firm are bidding for the the Shard's £30m steel contract which will see the winning firm install 12,000 tons of the material.

PC Harrington and O'Rouke are bidding for the £20m concrete contract to build the property's core.

A dutch firm going by the name of Schalaflamburgonblah are in negotiations for a pre-construction contract worth £50m to provide the cladding .

Bids are to be submitted over the next month with the winners announced by the end of the year.


Thanks Luke! Good to see that demolition work is starting too. This project is clearly moving forward with the aim to be completed (at least externally) in time for the 2012 Olympics.

Although the tower is not yet rising, I feel the worst risks such as planning permission, marketing for key tenants and obtaining financing are past, and the world is not about to have a major financial crash but it is experiencing a long overdue correction relating to interest rates rising to more traditional levels. My worst fear was that the prime developer, Irvine Sellar, may have an unexpected financial setback or may have a health problem prior to partners and finance being in place, but this point has been passed. If one financier were to pull out now, another would likely step in. Note too that a significant payoff has been made to PWC to vacate, and that demolition is no minor project or cost either.

A few windows on the upper floors of Southwark Towers (on the south-eastern face) have been boarded up.

to all those people who keep speaking about this "inevitable" recession , shut up! grade A office space is still in critical demand and unless it's an extremely major depression (highly unlikely , Gordon Browns at the helm:)) then this will continue to be the case . I know we all tend to get downbeat on the UK forums , but let's keep our heads up on this one . The only way we will start a recession is if we keep talking about it and scaring everyone!:lol:

^^^ Encore!! I too have spotted a few political failure monkeys on this thread....better accept reality even if it does not suit ones politics...things are good!

To put it into context, the FTSE has just dropped below 6000, in December 2003 it was around 3600. Stories like the US sub prime lending create uncertainty and the markets don't like uncertainty but my guess is that it will be a short term blip rather than anything longer term.

it also dropped below 6000 briefly in October 2006 but recovered quickly.

^^ Nah the US economy is having a prob, the UK might hiccup, but we have never been as strong..its a miracle really....

:lol: :lol: :lol: the country with the most indebted corporates and population on earth, with most of our economic growth based on people spending their housing equity down the shops. hmm. how i wish it was a miracle.

no ,the chickens are seriously coming home to roost i'm afraid now and the era of easy credit for corporates and individuals is drying / has dried up.

Banks won't even lend to each other at the moment - the whole situation is a complete mess and is going to take months to sort out. sorry but this is just fact.

its undeniable that this will have an impact on proposed developments and even BL has just released a statement saying as much. doesnt stop me getting excited about schemes such as the Shard, etc ,which i expect to get built, but no denying there is going to be a serious shake out now, maybe the public are just becoming aware of it but there's no getting away from it.

Not much cyclops can do about it either, sadly. blair's timing in leaving was brilliant.

I am getting a bit narked by this Tory diatribe...its purile....regardless of the 'world' economy' WE have never HAVE NEVER HAD SUCH A GOOD ECONOMY..THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A COMPARABLE TORY SUCCESS..hence all the confidence in our country. That cannot be denied. It COULD never have happened under 'the other' administration. Whats the point of keep banging on about it being Labours fault? They have plenty of faults, but not the economy :)

By the way, Conservative Westminster, Conservative wards of Fulham etc keep trying to block all our towers, even those not in their ares...who thinks the Shard would have got planning permission under a Conservative government?

PS: Cyclops??? I recall something about Gingers too??? Tory slang eh

c'mon Mulatto kid, lighten up & don't believe the hype! Unless you are a labour party worker close to Gordon you should see the cyclops joke, puerile yes but funny and you should also recognise some element of truth in what i'm saying.

i've no axe to grind for the Tories, really, Labour are at the mercy of world events just as the Tories were in the late 80's when exactly the same kind of credit boom developed and had just the same consequences. its just this time its gone on longer and there's just as much fast, easy money around now as there was then, and its just as obnoxious.

And in the 80s when it ended, first we had the government saying "the economy is fundamentally sound", then it was "we can't isolate ourselves from world events" , and finally the capitulation and desperate realisation they tried to get things under control, try and squeeze waste and bad practice out of the system causing a lot of pain, some unnecessary, then they blathered on about "the green shoots of recovery" for years until (no thanks to them) , the economy finally recovered as confidence came back.

Exactly the same thing happened last time. As Maggie said, you can't buck the market, and markets are even more global and quick now than they were then - its all about money and there's sod all the government can do when faced with inflows/ outflows of investment, money market trades, trillion pound bank lending and large corporate decision making. all these things are outside the control of government and are generally down to the market.

I think you make the mistake of thinking the government is in control more than it actually is. what we see now is market failure and the repercussions will just have to work very painfully through the system.

What the government could have done in the last ten years of growth which it hasnt, is pay back its debts , instead of which we are about to go into lean times now (even after increasing tax reciepts for all these years) with a goverment £35bn borrowing requirement this year. pretty much the same sort of mistake the Tories made. how on earth did this happen? the government has no money of its own, only what it gets from the people , and sadly we will all be paying for this mistake for the next few years.

The problem is all our politicians think far too short term and we all end up carrying the can for their vanity and hunger for power.

anyway a bit off topic i know maybe i should be on an economics forum...:lol:

Some good points. Under Gordon Brown we have seen one of the longest periods of growth in history and I feel that as Prime Minister he will take that onto the country as a whole.

Be that as it may, I don´t envy Darling at the moment. He is an astute politition but he lacks the orinational skills of Brown and I feel that a finacial slip less than two months into office could take the wind out of his sails somewhat. I hope that he guide the economy well over what looks set to be a difficult few months.

Now back to the Shard! This is a thread for constrution, not the economy!

:)

well he can just ask gordon for advice! With regards to LBT it is a very niche tower in a potential world capital, if there is a world recession people will invest in not the wannbies of the world but the stable arenas such as London. There is a public sector group signed up for a large portion of the building, they arent suddenly going to move to latvia. There will always be people interested in the top end residential area and top hotels arent exactly awash in London. As long as the artistic revolution flourishes and political stability ensues then London will carry its edge through a recession.

c'mon Mulatto kid, lighten up & don't believe the hype! Unless you are a labour party worker close to Gordon you should see the cyclops joke, puerile yes but funny and you should also recognise some element of truth in what i'm saying.

i've no axe to grind for the Tories, really, Labour are at the mercy of world events just as the Tories were in the late 80's when exactly the same kind of credit boom developed and had just the same consequences. its just this time its gone on longer and there's just as much fast, easy money around now as there was then, and its just as obnoxious.

And in the 80s when it ended, first we had the government saying "the economy is fundamentally sound", then it was "we can't isolate ourselves from world events" , and finally the capitulation and desperate realisation they tried to get things under control, try and squeeze waste and bad practice out of the system causing a lot of pain, some unnecessary, then they blathered on about "the green shoots of recovery" for years until (no thanks to them) , the economy finally recovered as confidence came back.

Exactly the same thing happened last time. As Maggie said, you can't buck the market, and markets are even more global and quick now than they were then - its all about money and there's sod all the government can do when faced with inflows/ outflows of investment, money market trades, trillion pound bank lending and large corporate decision making. all these things are outside the control of government and are generally down to the market.

I think you make the mistake of thinking the government is in control more than it actually is. what we see now is market failure and the repercussions will just have to work very painfully through the system.

What the government could have done in the last ten years of growth which it hasnt, is pay back its debts , instead of which we are about to go into lean times now (even after increasing tax reciepts for all these years) with a goverment £35bn borrowing requirement this year. pretty much the same sort of mistake the Tories made. how on earth did this happen? the government has no money of its own, only what it gets from the people , and sadly we will all be paying for this mistake for the next few years.

The problem is all our politicians think far too short term and we all end up carrying the can for their vanity and hunger for power.

anyway a bit off topic i know maybe i should be on an economics forum...:lol:

Absolutety!! I am so glad that I misunderstood this [QUOTE]

Back in reality.....

Looking at the way the global financial markets are functioning at the moment and the economy generally, it may well be that we are starting to go into a fairly severe recession within the next 12 months, much like in the early 90's.

I think any tower not pre-let or which hasnt started construction within this period is unlikely to get built for 5 years. its a REAL act of faith in the future now to proceed without tenants.

confidence in gordon's "no more boom and bust" economy has changed subtly over the last 6 months and particularly in the last month as worries have crept in from overseas but also at home where the government has done nothing to stop a dangerous credit bubble emerging over the past few years, the full implications of which are only now becoming painfully evident to people. Fingers crossed everything turns out ok but do not be in the least bit surprised if an awful lot of projects come to a shuddering halt very soon......[QUOTE/]


Yes....debts must be paid...the one that bothered me most was the loan with incredible interest to the USA for their help in WWII...paid off this year I believe after 61 years! I am aware (as I said) tha tour state cannot control the world economy...but we dont have Argentinas gov...we have the UK's Blair/Brown Gov....a much better position.

As mentioned that Shard above will go ahead. Even the potentiaL world situation wil not effect it because we are in such a strong position. I cant see interest rates hitting 15% as on back Wednesday...the tax burden increased over the tory epoc....unfortunately...mostly for the poorsest in the country (council tax(when the even worse poll tax lead to national revolt), highest rates and social taxes..not to mention health, museums, transport etc ) Quote Telegraph : As a result of personal tax-and-benefit measures introduced since 1997, households are on average £950 a year better off in real terms. The overall tax burden is lower now than it was for the entire period between 1981 and 1988, and is well below the peak tax burden in 1984." (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2006/06/05/cnbrown05.xml)


So we are agreed..nothing to worry about! The Economy is as booming as it possibly can be under the circumstances....AND...we dont get right wing nimbys worrying about the Shard falling over and the spire hitting the local boutique display in village chelsea, because there greedy money grabbing cronies have little power.....win win! We do agree! :)

BTW: still dont understand the name calling...it hurts people...why not call me half baked ni***r?

Yes....debts must be paid...the one that bothered me most was the loan with incredible interest to the USA for their help in WWII...paid off this year I believe after 61 years!

what happened was one of the conditions of this loan was that the british would immediately float the pound on the currency trading markets. naturally there was a massive run on the pound and a third of the value of the loan was sucked out of the bank of england reserves and into the dollar in three months.
i saw a brilliant documentary on bbc4 about this. all the newspapers considered that we'd been betrayed by the americans who basically tried to bankrupt us and then they got scared and decided that joe stalin might take over europe so they did the marshall plan.
it was this i believe that inspired churchill to say "the americans always do the right thing in the end but only when they have tried everything else."

what happened was one of the conditions of this loan was that the british would immediately float the pound on the currency trading markets. naturally there was a massive run on the pound and a third of the value of the loan was sucked out of the bank of england reserves and into the dollar in three months.
i saw a brilliant documentary on bbc4 about this. all the newspapers considered that we'd been betrayed by the americans who basically tried to bankrupt us and then they got scared and decided that joe stalin might take over europe so they did the marshall plan.
it was this i believe that inspired churchill to say "the americans always do the right thing in the end but only when they have tried everything else."

I think it's hillarious the way the American's go on "We saved your asses by giving you supplies in WWII"

They didn't give us anything. They sold us stuff knowing we would be paying them back for years.

But that's for another thread....

The UK project 'Operation Crossbow' saved the eastern seaboard cities of the USA from being obliterated by German missiles...

What up yall, I'm back! Real shocker coming onto this thread after being away for a few weeks, I look back a number of pages and descover all hell broke loose...Jef and Will having a right old set-to....didn't see this coming, I thought you guys got on very well and Jef always seemed to contrubite to the forum, but I don't wanna drag that back up and start the whole thing over again.

Then I see pics of scaffolding and whatnot going up, followed by announcement of bidding for steel/concrete/cladding contracts...and then news of the obvious market flop goin on at the moment (which seems to be settling down again I think from what I've heard)....so I'm not sure what to believe.

But I learned long ago on this forum that you shouldn't trust the vast majority of thing you hear about London's skyscrapers, whether from forumers, building websites or even the actual company in charge of the project in question, as the news changes almost every week regarding their status'. For now I'm staying optimistic...what else can I do? I confess that I'm not involved remotely in the building industry and I don't role in those circles so my knowledge in such matters is limited and therefore I can only accept that (without official word saying otherwise) LBT is still fully on track (if a little delayed).

Btw, welcome back Mulatto, I knew you couldn't stay away for long! :)

Now I'm off to check out what's been happening on the rest of the projects.

:cheers:

:wave:

Another news flash from your SSC SE1 correspondent!

St Thomas St is closed, the crane is being erected, it's about 2/3 of the way up Southwark Towers. As Cranes etc mentioned it is indeed being attached to the building at the points where the cladding has been removed. Sorry, didn't have my camera so no pics.

Happy days! :D

WHOOOO! It's all happening!

I was there a few hours ago, I did have my camera:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d155/GazKinz/SUC50301.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d155/GazKinz/SUC50302.jpg

Thanks Gaz!!:)

wow :D

:cheers:

Take the old bitch down.

Wow, should be great to see it coming down! :D

And even beter to see the Shard going up !

How long is demolition scheduled to last? Also, these are going to be the largest buildings ever demolished ever in the UK so a record is going to be broken even before the steelworks begin to rise!

I have to admit that I quite like Southwark Towers; I feel that the mirrored glass and brutalist concrete go quite well together, of course, it is far worse than what it going to replace it, but even so, it is as good an example of 1970s architecture as any around the world in my opinion!

NEWS FLASH!!!! i can se the crane from my office window! its now above southwark tower!
:banana:

nice, might pop over london bridge now to take a look

I like the glass on the Southwark Towers - very reflective and the towers look so tall when you walk out of London Bridge station. Of course they're not a shadow on LBT.

I have to admit that I quite like Southwark Towers; I feel that the mirrored glass and brutalist concrete go quite well together, of course, it is far worse than what it going to replace it, but even so, it is as good an example of 1970s architecture as any around the world in my opinion!

But it's brown! It's a big brown, textured concrete lump.

But it's brown! It's a big brown, textured concrete lump.

Yes, but it is still a great deal better than the majority of buildings from this era. I don't for a second think that it is one of the best in London but it at least shows what these buildings can look like with a bit of care and attention.

London bridge will feel strange for a while when this is gone. Like big bulk buildings including the world trade centre. Locals must of felt lost when they were destroyed. I must say this building is not as bad as people are making out.

SOME INFO ON THE

ARCHITECT - T P Bennett & Son
STOREYS - 25
HEIGHT - 1OOm
FACILITIES - Swimming pool and the highest roof garden in London
REFURB - In 2005 they gave the building a light face lift with a new l lobby and the lifts, lavatories were refurbished.

It's funny how people are getting to like and possibly miss Southwark Towers now that its days are numbered. I pass through London Bridge everyday and always quite liked Southwark Tower, certainly the best of the three towers there. Along with most people, I can't wait for the lovely Shard to get going, although I have a sneaking feeling that it's going to disappoint some of our expectations a little, despite its height.

As Gothic has said before, it is a 1billion pound supertall. With cladding comparable to crystal. I don't see anyone here being dissapointed. (Atleast I think that's what Gothic said)

IMO we won't realise just how brilliant the Shard is until it's finished, and sparkling and looking like a tower from 22nd century London has been ripped through to our time...

Plus, we haven't actually seen that many renders of the Shard compared to.. say... Bishopsgate (I have 30 renders and counting of Bishopsgate saved to my hard drive) and I just can't get my head around all the faces of the tower and it's actualy shape...

Just wait. This will be our 21st Century St. Pauls.

Theres only two parts im not quite sure i'm going to like about this building, one is the floor with the large floor height in the middle as it breaks the tower up abit, and the other is the base which appears to be round from what I have seen, i'd rather it kept its interesting octagonal? shape.

Round? Eh?

How long is demolition scheduled to last? Also, these are going to be the largest buildings ever demolished ever in the UK so a record is going to be broken even before the steelworks begin to rise!

I have to admit that I quite like Southwark Towers; I feel that the mirrored glass and brutalist concrete go quite well together, of course, it is far worse than what it going to replace it, but even so, it is as good an example of 1970s architecture as any around the world in my opinion!The mirrored glass cladding actually hides the balconies which go round the entire building on each floor. These balconies were used by the maintenance staff and window washers. There were times, a long time ago, when office staff had limited access to the balconies, including access to the roof garden. But the health and safety nazis put an end to all that. But, having stood on the balconies myself, I can tell you that the views are fantastic. It's incredibly noisy outside though, the building is next to a major train station!

People on here will be in for a treat once the Shard is built. The views of the City at night are stunning from the higher floors of Southwark Towers. Perhaps now the office is closed, the construction workers might be able to take a few shots for us as a prelude.

Just wait. This will be our 21st Century St. Pauls.I think that's a interesting point.

One of the prime reasons why I'm against skyscrapers in the city, beyond their impact on infrastructure, is the impact of them when viewing St Paul's. St Paul's has always been THE pinnacle for the city.

There's no doubt when the shard is built, it will take over the number one spot from St Paul's. At this point, I may well relax my views on skyscrapers ruining the view points of St Paul's. I'm not religious and as you say, this will be THE 21st century St Paul's. Time to move on, perhaps.

I think that's a interesting point.

One of the prime reasons why I'm against skyscrapers in the city, beyond their impact on infrastructure, is the impact of them when viewing St Paul's. St Paul's has always been THE pinnacle for the city.

There's no doubt when the shard is built, it will take over the number one spot from St Paul's. At this point, I may well relax my views on skyscrapers ruining the view points of St Paul's. I'm not religious and as you say, this will be THE 21st century St Paul's. Time to move on, perhaps.

Ah yes, the Canaletto effect! Unfortunately, the Canaletto's effect - though quite a thing in Canaletto's time - seems to have suffered somewhat from the mid-rise developments of the 1960s and 70s. Once lost, surely there is little to be gained from going back and even less from preserving the present skyline? Moreover, one must really wonder whether its preservation is still relevant to a booming, dynamic, progressive, forward-looking city like London.

I was in Sao Paulo last week (great city if you get a chance to visit), and when I said I was from London, someone said "London? That's the capital of Europe!" Well, yes - in a way, it is! And the city deserves nothing less than exciting, innovative architecture that pushes new boundaries.

still more sections to add to the crane it appears. maybe this weekend we`ll see it rising above the tower?

The current tower is no where near good enough to be stood out alone like that in London! I get the feeling that being a skyscraper enthusiast might actually be a negative for London if we want to hark on about such mediocrity! Stick a piece of the cladding in a skyscraper museum or something, or leave it for those Dorset steam fairs!

The London Bridge cluster provides a pretty depressing spectacle, a large stump covered in the most uninspired use of bricks and concrete that I have cared to lay my eyes on, the brown brick section is hilarious. The sad/good thing is that there are still thousands of towers and buildings from the same depression era left littering london!

^^^ I am glad that we are paying some homage to southwark towers at the end of its life, by talking about it. It was quite original..perhaps somebody could point to anythink like it?

Still think it would have been better to keep it and creat a cluster. Despite the class of the Shard, Singleton buildings are unnessecarily provocative (Centre Point?) In any case, Guys Tower is not going anywhere....I wonder if that is named after Guy Fawkes? ;)

Sir Thomas Guy.

;)

Perhaps now the office is closed, the construction workers might be able to take a few shots for us as a prelude.

It's not closed.

Crane notwithstanding, ST is still being used by the present tenants and will continue to be for at least another 2 weeks.

**

I don't think the crane is taller than Southwark Towers yet, from Blackfriars Bridge this evening all looked normal, nothing emerging from behind the beast. But its teasing us, lurking just behind ready to pop up and snaffle the rooftop plant equipment first. Mwwah.

Walked past it today, there are atleast another 10 sections of the crane waiting to be lifted in to place, This looks to be a self raising crane, and the remaining sections will be slotted in as the top of the crane is jacked up on the frame

i'm convinced this is happening i think finance must be nearly sorted.Or has that already been announced

i'm convinced this is happening i think finance must be nearly sorted.Or has that already been announced

I think your right, this must be happening.

I just don't understand the logic that you would spend millions evicting tennants, demolishing the current building and simply leave an empty space in central London and do nothing with it. Afterall if they were not serious about building The Shard then why bother demolishing Southwark Towers? I mean surely it would make more sense to simply re let Southwark Towers to PWC or whomever if you were unable to fund and build the Shard?

Even if this whole Subprime issue has an effect on the UK economy right now, everyone seems to be saying its only a blip and that things will recover soon, its going to take 9 months (I think?) to demolish Southwark Towers, by then surely market conditions will have improved. If British Land feel confident that 122 Leadenhall will be a success considering they have no pre lets and lots of other projects going on within a stone's throw then surely the developers of the Shard which has two sizeable pre lets and plenty of property which will sell for millions must be far more confident their project will be a success?

I went past this today. Alot of people talking about "the big red crane" and how "they" must be "fixing the building" :D

I went past this today. Alot of people talking about "the big red crane" and how "they" must be "fixing the building" :D

LOL:D Who were the people, just pedestrians? Did you correct them?

Even if this whole Subprime issue has an effect on the UK economy right now, everyone seems to be saying its only a blip and that things will recover soon, its going to take 9 months (I think?) to demolish Southwark Towers, by then surely market conditions will have improved. If British Land feel confident that 122 Leadenhall will be a success considering they have no pre lets and lots of other projects going on within a stone's throw then surely the developers of the Shard which has two sizeable pre lets and plenty of property which will sell for millions must be far more confident their project will be a success?I'm not sure that the "blip" with the economy has actually happened yet...But, I am confident that regardless of market conditions, the Shard will go ahead.

The Shard will be such a iconic building, so for that reason alone I don't think funding this building will be a problem. I agree with you that unlike 122 Leadenhall etc which are all office blocks, this has a hotel and flats too. The minute the flats are marketed, I've no doubt they will sell quick. So if you add the money the flats will make with rent money from the hotel and tfl. I reckon that the Shard's developers will be able to demonstrate to financial backers that the Shard is a lower risk investment than one of the other proposed office towers.

I think your right, this must be happening.

I just don't understand the logic that you would spend millions evicting tennants, demolishing the current building and simply leave an empty space in central London and do nothing with it. Afterall if they were not serious about building The Shard then why bother demolishing Southwark Towers? I mean surely it would make more sense to simply re let Southwark Towers to PWC or whomever if you were unable to fund and build the Shard?

Even if this whole Subprime issue has an effect on the UK economy right now, everyone seems to be saying its only a blip and that things will recover soon, its going to take 9 months (I think?) to demolish Southwark Towers, by then surely market conditions will have improved. If British Land feel confident that 122 Leadenhall will be a success considering they have no pre lets and lots of other projects going on within a stone's throw then surely the developers of the Shard which has two sizeable pre lets and plenty of property which will sell for millions must be far more confident their project will be a success?Here's the possibility that I dread:

They fail to secure full finance for construction of the Shard because financiers are unhappy about the deal they struck with TFL and no other tenant looks like coming forward to sign for the rest of the office space. They pull down the Southwark Towers anyway and then apply for planning permission to construct something much more bland, boring, and dull. Alternatively they sell on the site. Sure they have ordered steel but they can always sell that on if they don't secure the finance for the Shard. Of course I pray that I'm wrong....

LBT doesn't even make the Top 100 tallest anymore...

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=14932972#post14932972

In fact, it's now the 102nd tallest project, and that's not including the "height unknown" projects at the bottom!

Wow, that's a shocker, because I remember looking at that list years ago and noticing how high up the Shard was (and how I felt so excited).

I'm still immensley proud of the Shard project though, and it will still become world famous :D
And at least ours is pure quality, there's a few supertalls out there which really aren't of brilliant design.

There are certainly few proposals which can match the quality of LBT.

I'm personally a huge fan of the Burj Al Alam, which I think is Dubai's best project -

http://i12.tinypic.com/669pjs1.jpg

(also one of the few top-heavy skyscrapers which I think works well)



Then there's Skidmore Owings and Merrill's design for the Transbay Tower in San Francisco... this will be absolutely gorgeous -

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=513477

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/9348/retrieveassetca2cvd6wik8.jpg


There are few towers other than those which I think could rival LBT.

Oh yes, don't get me wrong there's loads of supertall projects I love. The Freedom Tower, Burj Dubai, Shanghai WFC etc etc

The ones I had in mind were those residential supertalls that you often find in Dubai and other cities, which I don't think work very well.

LOL:D Who were the people, just pedestrians? Did you correct them?


I don't think a group of middle aged men and women in business suits, who probably earn £300,000 a year would appreciate a cocky, badly dressed 18 year old eavesdropping on their conversation and correcting them! :D

They may well earn 300,000, but they obviously can't read, if they could they'd have noticed all those signs around London Bridge station telling them about the Shard

I went past this today. Alot of people talking about "the big red crane" and how "they" must be "fixing the building" :D

ha I like the term 'fixing' describing the process of turning Southwark Tower into London Bridge Tower! How very British

Wow, that's a shocker, because I remember looking at that list years ago and noticing how high up the Shard was (and how I felt so excited).

I'm still immensley proud of the Shard project though, and it will still become world famous :D
And at least ours is pure quality, there's a few supertalls out there which really aren't of brilliant design.

Agreed, just look at the Gherkin, its world famous and its quite small compared to dozens of world skyscrapers. I think London has a knack for making things famous, for example I was in London for a holiday 2weeks ago and I overheard an American family on holiday saying "lets go check out the Canary Wharf estate" so even the Wharf has its place worldwide.

I don't think a group of middle aged men and women in business suits, who probably earn £300,000 a year would appreciate a cocky, badly dressed 18 year old eavesdropping on their conversation and correcting them! :D

Ooh I would! I remember being in a lift at the Park Lane Hilton and some Americans saying "Well I guess this must be the tallest building in the city" I said..." I beg your pardon?...its nothing like it!" How we laughted...I love telling people about The Shard!

ok lets not get onto stupid things 'merkins say! i have a few classics as well - you hear all sorts this time of year with all the tourists in town. i itch to butt in too but am too much of a pussy usually.


cant wait to see this crane go up - people will really notice that something's going on soon.

cant believe folk are so ignorant they didnt know the shard was going up there - mind you i guess we are a bit obsessive. i started talking to people the other night at a party about london's underground rivers - they looked at me like i was a bit tapped. :nuts:

^^

Underground rivers eh? Sounds a bit interesing does that...

It's only a snippet, and a slightly obscure source, but I think all these 'mini-confirmations' are reassuring:

"Your next project is the 308m tall Shard in London. Will that be a big change?

The Shard’s different because it’s such a huge project. On the Northumbria bridge we were the only two designers on the project – on the Shard we’re a team of eight or nine. It’s a far longer project that’s already been going a few years, with another four years to go, so the speed at which things happen is a lot slower.

There’s a much larger volume of work on this scheme because it’s so high. If things change you have to go through the whole building, making sure everything’s sorted out. Things are starting to move – we’re starting on site quite soon."

http://www.building.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=3093661&origin=bldgnewsletter

There are certainly few proposals which can match the quality of LBT.

I'm personally a huge fan of the Burj Al Alam, which I think is Dubai's best project -

http://i12.tinypic.com/669pjs1.jpg

(also one of the few top-heavy skyscrapers which I think works well)



Then there's Skidmore Owings and Merrill's design for the Transbay Tower in San Francisco... this will be absolutely gorgeous -

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=513477

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/9348/retrieveassetca2cvd6wik8.jpg


There are few towers other than those which I think could rival LBT.

Looks great from ground level but looks vulger from a distance.

Marcus those are some handsome towers but the LBT will be sheer architectural poetry.

The way this tower will reflect the cloudy London skies will be incredible. It is in a different league to any proposals that I have seen. Look at Aurora Place in Sydney.... look at the quality of that tower and imagine that quality transposed into an even better design and plonked next to London Bridge.

If built, the London Bridge Tower will be superb. I have to admit that I harbour some of Marcus's reservations. We'll see.

There are certainly few proposals which can match the quality of LBT.

I'm personally a huge fan of the Burj Al Alam, which I think is Dubai's best project -

http://i12.tinypic.com/669pjs1.jpg

(also one of the few top-heavy skyscrapers which I think works well)



Then there's Skidmore Owings and Merrill's design for the Transbay Tower in San Francisco... this will be absolutely gorgeous -

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=513477

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/9348/retrieveassetca2cvd6wik8.jpg


There are few towers other than those which I think could rival LBT.


This makes me realise just how sterile and boring Canary Wharf is. Why the hell can we not show the world just how detailed and beautiful British skyscrapers can be. This excludes our favourite builds and proposals of the city.