well nothing twisted about it except for the Vietnamese transalation part.
read the 2 and tell me how well they transalated the article. (the bad parts they left out)

http://www.manilastandardtoday.com/?page=antonioAbaya_nov24_2006
Vietnam surges aheadBy Antonio C. Abaya

The holding of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation Summit in Hanoi, Vietnam last week occasioned a flurry of articles in the Western print media, as well as some gushing coverage on cable TV stations, on the surge of the Vietnamese economy. Vietnam has the second fastest growing economy in the world, next only to China’s.

The enthusiasm is well deserved. The Vietnamese economy has been growing at an average rate of about 9.0 percent per annum for the past 10 years. In 2006, it is expected to “slow down” to about 8.4 percent. By contrast, our gross domestic product has been averaging about 4.5 to 5.0 percent per annum over the same period. The Philippines has NEVER EVER experienced an annual GDP growth rate of 8 percent or more.

Admittedly, Vietnam is climbing up from a much lower base. Still, the surge is infectious and self-perpetuating. Vietnam drew in $5.4 billion in direct foreign investments in 2005, compared to less than $1.5 billion that came to the Philippines. Many Japanese manufacturers, unhappy with their investments in China, have moved their factories to Vietnam, not to the Philippines.

At least, the Vietnamese learned from their mistakes. Our Vietnamese guide Ly in Ho Chi Minh City told us that before the economic reforms in 1986, the socialist state owned all the means of production, and everyone worked for the socialist state, which was/is the traditional Marxist-Leninist formula for social-economic-political organization.

Ly recalled that in those bad old days, every Vietnamese family was issued a ration card in which was duly noted their share and consumption of practically all basic necessities: rice, cooking oil, eggs, meat, fish, soap, etc., most of which were often in short supply and thus had to be rationed.

Under the Marxist dictum “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs,” there was no incentive to work hard since everyone was paid the same wage, whether he/she worked diligently or merely slouched around at the workplace. “They pretended to pay us, we pretended to work.”

It was the reintroduction of private enterprise (“capitalism”) and the re-embrace of the profit motive in 1986 that the entrepreneurial spirit of the Vietnamese was re-awakened and nurtured, just as it was earlier re-awakened and nurtured in China, starting in 1979, when Deng Xiaoping urged the Chinese people to “Get rich through hard work! To get rich is glorious!”

But it has to be said that the Philippines has had capitalism and the profit motive since independence in 1946 or even earlier. Why has the Philippines merely fumbled and stumbled its way to development, while Vietnam has managed to surge forward despite decades of almost incessant warfare and other decades of sclerotic socialist command economy?

Is it because of corruption? Vietnam and China have been adjudged as two of the most corrupt countries in East Asia, according to the yearly surveys conducted by the Hong Kong-based Political and Economic Risk Consultancy Ltd. Yet they have posted the fastest economic growth rates, not just in East Asia, but also in the world.

In my earlier articles on Philippine economic development, I have blamed our poor economic performance on poor choices in economic strategies, foremost among them our failure to join the export boom in the 1970s and 1980s, and our failure to take part in the tourism boom of the ’90s up to the present.

To this I added a scandalously high population growth rate and a premature embrace of free trade and globalization which wrought havoc with our nascent industries that had largely failed to mature to the same level as those of, say, Malaysia, Thailand or Taiwan.

While our neighbors set their sights on the global marketplace, President Ferdinand Marcos turned inward, giving his cronies monopolies in the domestic market. What few export industries we managed to develop —in garments, for example—were deliberately wrecked by the communist Kilusang Mayo Uno militants who staged strike after strike against garment factories until most of their owners were forced to cease operations or move their factories to other countries.

We cannot draw the same comparison with Vietnam, which did not enjoy the luxury of contemplating its navel in the ’70s and ’80s, embroiled as it was in a war for national survival and, later, in a struggle for national reconstruction.

Why has Vietnam surged forward in economic development despite its handicaps, while the Philippines struggles to stay above the water despite its many advantages?

Before I went to Vietnam last September, the Vietnamese Ambassador in Manila, Vu Xuan Truong, gave me a book titled Reform and Industrialization by economist Do Duc Dinh. His office also e-mailed to me a briefing paper “Why Vietnam and Why Now?” in connection with the then coming summit.

I have not yet thoroughly read both materials, but, this early, I can sense that the Vietnamese are not embarrassed by the word “industrialization.” Philippine political leaders, including the incumbents, are.

In the Midterm Development Program of the Arroyo administration, neither industrialization nor manufacturing is mentioned as priority concerns. Its foci are specific on agriculture, tourism and information technology.

No wonder the manufacturing sector in our economy has been shrinking continuously. Manufacturing jobs have been lost and are still being lost by the Philippines. In contrast, most of the $5.4 billion that poured into Vietnam in 2005 went or are going into manufacturing.

This is consistent with President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo’s ideological commitment to free trade and globalization, under which this country has apparently been scratched off as a manufacturing center and must fend for itself as an exporter of labor. This means: Open the doors to the manufactured products of other countries and pay for the imports with the remittances of overseas contract workers.

While we are gratified at the proliferation of jobs in the call centers, at the rise in agricultural production, and at the increase in tourist arrivals, these are not adequate to lift millions of people from poverty.

The lack of adequate jobs in our economy has forced eight (or is it nine or 10?) million Filipinos to work abroad. Every day 3,000 more Filipinos leave for employment overseas, and this diaspora will continue, sucking away with it some of our best teachers, our best nurses and doctors, our best accountants and engineers, our best computer technicians, until our economy can generate sufficient job opportunities. On the contrary, there are few, if any, Vietnamese overseas contract workers.

Only manufacturing or industrialization can generate these jobs. One hectare of agricultural land, planted to rice or corn, cannot sustain even one family for even only one year. That hectare of land, if converted into a manufacturing center, can sustain several hundreds of families. Domestic manufacturing, however, cannot be sustained if our market is allowed to be flooded indiscriminately with the manufactured products of other countries.

Protectionism, to protect local producers and save local jobs, is not anything to be ashamed of. Even the most vociferous champion of free trade, US President George W. Bush, did not hesitate in the past three years to impose protectionist barriers against Chinese garments, Vietnamese catfish and prawns, Canadian lumber and Brazilian steel, in order to protect American producers from foreign competition and save American jobs.



http://www.tuoitre.com.vn/Tianyon/Index.aspx?ArticleID=174540&ChannelID=87
Báo Manila Standard, Philippines:

VN vượt lên phía trước


TT - Việc tổ chức hội nghị APEC tuần trước ở VN diễn ra đúng vào thời điểm báo chí và các phương tiện truyền thông các nước liên tục đưa tin về sự nổi lên của nền kinh tế VN - quốc gia có tốc độ phát triển nhanh thứ hai thế giới, chỉ sau Trung Quốc.

Niềm hân hoan đó là xứng đáng vì nền kinh tế VN đã phát triển với tốc độ trung bình khoảng 9%/năm trong mười năm qua… trong khi nền kinh tế của chúng ta (Philippines) chỉ tăng trưởng khoảng 4,5-5% trong thời gian đó. Trong năm 2006, tốc độ tăng trưởng của VN có chậm lại ở mức 8,4% nhưng Philippines cũng chưa bao giờ có được tốc độ tăng GDP hơn 8%...

Thực tế VN đi lên từ xuất phát điểm thấp, tuy vậy sự tăng trưởng này cũng đã có tác động tích cực. VN thu hút được hơn 5,4 tỉ USD trong năm 2005 so với mức dưới 1,5 tỉ USD của Philippines. Rất nhiều nhà đầu tư Nhật Bản khi không hài lòng với việc đầu tư ở Trung Quốc, họ chuyển nhà máy của mình đến VN chứ không phải đến Philippines.

Ít nhất người VN cũng đã biết học từ những sai lầm của mình. Người hướng dẫn du lịch tên Ly ở TP.HCM nói với tôi rằng sự nghiệp đổi mới năm 1986 đã giúp đánh thức và nuôi dưỡng tinh thần kinh doanh ở đây, cũng giống như Trung Quốc từng được đánh thức từ năm 1979…

Trong khi VN đã vươn được lên phía trước dù chịu hàng thập kỷ chiến tranh và một thập kỷ kinh tế trì trệ, Philippines lại lần mò và vấp ngã trên con đường phát triển của mình.

VN không có được sự xa xỉ như chúng ta trong những năm 1970, 1980. Họ phải vật lộn với cuộc chiến tranh vì tồn vong đất nước và sau đó là công cuộc tái thiết. Tại sao VN đã vươn lên phía trước bất chấp những khó khăn trong khi Philippines phải vật lộn dù có biết bao lợi thế? Trước khi tôi tới VN tháng chín năm ngoái, tôi được đại sứ Vũ Xuân Trường đưa cho cuốn sách Cải cách và công nghiệp hóa của nhà kinh tế Đỗ Đức Bình… Dù chưa đọc kỹ nhưng tôi có thể thấy người VN không ngại ngùng với từ “công nghiệp hóa” trong khi các nhà lãnh đạo chính trị của ta thì có… Điều này giải thích vì sao lĩnh vực sản xuất của chúng ta đã liên tục bị thu hẹp, người dân thì mất việc làm… trong khi hầu hết số tiền 5,4 tỉ USD đổ vào VN năm 2005 là vào lĩnh vực sản xuất.

Chỉ có sản xuất và công nghiệp hóa mới tạo ra việc làm. Một hecta đất nông nghiệp sẽ không đủ nuôi một gia đình trong một năm. Nếu hecta đất đó biến thành cơ sở sản xuất sẽ có thể nuôi đủ vài trăm gia đình.

Nhà bình luận ANTONIO C.ABAYA

THANH TUẤN (lược dịch từ bài viết “VN vượt lên trước” trên tờ Manila Standard, Philippines

Haha, to protect the vulnerable integrity of our hard-working, utopian citizens.

hahaha... interesting article, thanks posting.

Vietnam DID NOT grow for the average of 9% a year for the last ten years. More like 7.5%

Co' gi` la. dda^u! Ca'c ba'o VN ha?i ngoa.i dda~ ddi dda^`u phong tra`o na`y tu*` la^u la('m ro^`i: tin xa^'u thi` dda(ng ta?i, tin to^'t thi` im nhu* cha(?ng bie^'t dde^'n. Co`n te^. ho*n nu*~a, co' khi ho. la.i co^' ti`nh di.ch SAI vo*'i y' nghi~a hoa`n toa`n TRA'I NGU*O*.C vo*'i ba`i nguye^n ba?n ba(`ng English. To^i dda~ ho*n 1 la^`n ti`m ra vie^.c na`y tre^n to*` Vie^.t Ba'o, to*` ba'o lo*'n thu*' hai cu?a ngu*o*`i Vie^.t o*? My~!

Thong cam cho dich gia di cac ban. Neu dich dung nhung gi nguoi ta viet thi dich gia di doi luon :ohno:
Dieu gi den se phai den, nhung cung can thoi gian chu nhi :cheers:

the commie government expected 6.5 billion from foreign investments this year 2006, but only 2 days after the Apec ended VN received 8.2 bill and 3 billions more investments waitting to be approved by the commies......hopefully until the end of this year we will receive around 10-12 billions.
this is the second wave after 1996 when we received 8.5 billions.

and the stock market skyrock to double after Bush's visit. this is cool, I hope each year we'll just double and double or maybe tripple .

I do hope that deep inside those vietnamese commies put the nation and Vietnamese culture and pride above Stalin and Marx.

just like the Polish communist. They refused to take order from Moscow and followed the voice of the CAtholic church

The more the economy is in private hands, the more the Communist control of society will diminish. Although, I've been reading that the government wants to control certain industries through state owned enterprises like telecommunications, steel, shipbuilding, etc. If these SOE's performed poorly as most SOE's always have, then it will be a drag on the economy.

can you believe it? VN stock market is doing better than CHina

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/sep2006/gb20060911_743957.htm?link_position=link9
SEPTEMBER 11, 2006

Asia
By Frederik Balfour

Saigon's Stock Market Surges
No longer a joke, the Vietnam stock exchange is up by 67% this year, and it welcomes foreigners interested in mines, pharma, and Nike

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For most of its six-year history, the Vietnamese stock market has been something of a joke. As recently as January, its market capitalization was less than $500 million while average daily turnover was all of $700,000. International fund managers viewed the Ho Chi Minh City Stock Exchange as nothing more than a financial curiosity not worth their time.

But get this: Vietnam's stock market has turned in a better performance this year than China's two white-hot exchanges—in Shanghai and Shenzhen—and is tops in the region. It is up 67% as of Sept. 11 and 97% in the past 12 months. Market capitalization has increased sixfold, to $3 billion, and it could easily double in the next 12 months if planned initial public offerings come to market as expected. And while that's still pocket change to most money managers, "now is the time to move," wrote Hong Kong-based Pan-Asian equity analyst Garry Evans in an HSBC research report released in early September.

LACK OF BENCHMARKS. That's not to say investing in Vietnamese equities isn't a white-knuckle ride. The market climbed 105% before hitting a peak in late April then lost 38% before bottoming out at the beginning of August. It has since climbed back up 28%. And as in any emerging market, transparency is a problem. None of the stock exchange's 48 listed companies is subject to audits by international accounting firms.

Though the companies are required to release quarterly earnings reports, the absence of sophisticated analyst research on a company-by-company basis makes it difficult to rely on basic benchmarks such as price earnings ratios. "There are no consensus numbers, it's pretty hard to tell," says Spencer White, Merrill Lynch (MER) equity strategist in Hong Kong.

Yet White is still one of Vietnam's biggest boosters. A report he penned back in February, in which he declared Vietnam a "10-year-buy," played no small part in the first-quarter rally. Local retail investors, who account for 95% of the market in Vietnam, bought in anticipation of a flood of foreign money. White says the market got ahead of itself, though now, after a healthy correction it offers "the opportunity to buy into one of highest growth economies in Asia."

EARNING A PLUS. Economic fundamentals certainly look good. Vietnam has boasted the second fastest-growing economy in the region after China's in recent years, and it is replicating its Communist big brother's privatization of state-owned companies and embrace of the market economy. Vietnam's economy is expected to grow 8% this year to $60 billion, on the back of 8.5% growth in 2005.

Standard & Poor's on Sept. 7 raised Vietnam's sovereign credit rating to BB+ from BB, citing the country's economic growth prospects, improvements to infrastructure, and reforms in the banking system. Another enticement to potential investors is the likelihood Vietnam will be admitted to the World Trade Organization by the end of this year.

In 2005 the country attracted $5.8 billion in foreign direct investment as money poured into pharmaceuticals and shoe and mobile-phone manufacturing. In March, Vietnam made big headlines when Intel (INTC) Chairman Craig Barrett traveled to Ho Chi Minh City, also known as Saigon, to receive an investment license to invest up to $605 million building a semiconductor test and assembly plant there (see BusinessWeek.com, 3/13/06, "Good Morning, Vietnam").

LOW CEILING. The good news behind all this is that foreigners can participate directly in the Vietnam stock market. This entails obtaining a trading code, a relatively simple process of submitting a four-page application form in English together with supporting documents translated into Vietnamese. Banks such as Merrill Lynch can also buy shares on behalf of individuals. There are no foreign exchange limits on repatriating income, nor is there any withholding tax on dividends or capital gains.

But obtaining the right to buy equities is the easy part. Because the 49% ceiling on foreign ownership has already been reached for most listed companies—it's 30% on Vietnamese banks—finding tradable shares in the best companies is extremely difficult. For example, Sai Gon Thuong Tin Commercial Joint Stock Bank (Sacombank), in which Melbourne-based ANZ Bank holds a stake and listed in July, trades at a price ratio more than double the average for banks elsewhere in the region.

Even so, the 30% foreign limit has been reached. Together with Vietnam Dairy Products Joint-Stock Company (see BusinessWeek.com, 1/31/06, "Vietnam: Land of Milk and Honey"), Sacombank accounts for more than 50% of the market capitalization.

ENTER THE DRAGON. There is talk, however, of lifting the ceiling on foreign ownership again. "They have to make a decision fairly quickly," says Merrill Lynch's White, who points out there has been an avalanche of foreign funds trying to flow in since the limit was revised upwards from 30% to 49% last October.

In the meantime, the best way to gain Vietnam exposure might be through buying listed closed-end funds. These typically invest in both listed and over-the-counter Vietnamese stocks, a potentially large pool of some 2,400 companies. There are about a dozen closed-end Vietnam funds, most of them listed in London or Dublin. The largest is Vietnam Enterprise Investment Fund, managed by Dragon Capital since 1995, with a net-asset value of more than $350 million. Saigon-based Dragon also manages the $192 million Vietnam Growth Fund.

The $230 million Vietnam Opportunity Fund is managed by VinaCapital and is listed on London's AIM board. It currently trades at a more than 30% premium to net-asset value. Other Dublin-traded funds include PXP Vietnam Fund, and PXP Vietnam Emerging Equity Fund. Prudential says it plans to begin raising between $150 million and $200 million for an offshore Vietnam fund, pending Vietnamese regulatory approval expected within a few months.

CURRENT FAVORITES. However, Prudential may have its work cut out for it, as existing funds are already having trouble finding places to park their money inside Vietnam. Instead, experts advocate the indirect route of investing in overseas companies with significant exposure to Vietnam. HSBC suggests Toronto-listed mining stocks Tiberon Minerals with a major stake in a Vietnamese tungsten mine, and gold exploration company Olympus Pacific Minerals.

Merrill's Spencer White likes Hong Kong-listed Yue Yuen, which owns Vietnamese manufacturing plants producing sports shoes for Nike (NKE). Also among his favorites are Singapore-listed Fraser & Neave, which derives 35% of group profits from its Vietnamese brewery and owns a chunk of Vinamilk. Jonathon Waugh, manager of PXP Vietnam Asset Management in Saigon, likes Ellipsiz, also based in Singapore, which manufactures probe cards used in test and assembly of semiconductors.

Yet greater breadth and depth in listed stocks may soon be in the offing. In January, a new securities law takes effect in Vietnam that will require unlisted companies whose shares trade over the counter to be subject to the same reporting requirements as listed companies. The current law has discouraged many from listing on the stock market. The government is also offering a 50% tax break for companies during their first two years on the exchange.

If this carrot-and-stick approach works, billions of dollars of companies' value currently traded on the OTC market could become fair game for foreign investors. That could bring the market capitalization to about $10 billion by the end of next year, according to Merrill Lynch, which received a trading code to invest directly in securities in August.

...I've been reading that the government wants to control certain industries through state owned enterprises like telecommunications, ...will be a drag on the economy.

Doubtful that they ever let go telecommunications!!! If they let go of telecommunications, they won't have a conduit for communist propaganda... BTW, if the telecommunication is wide open, democracy will dawn on VN. Corruption will definitely be kept in check and watch for the good people of VN with great entrepreneurial spirit and intellectual prowess to turn VN into one of the newest and strongest tiger of Asia. Mark my words if that is the case. Watch out Seoul, Korea!!!

Oh well, I can only dream :nuts:

1 con en khong lam nen mua xuan, nhung nhieu con en se lam nen mua xuan.
1 thang viet cong chet se khong co gi, nhung nhieu thang viet cong chet Vietnam se som thanh rong hehe

ey so after bush came so the stock exchange, Vn stock martket is now 6 billions? Thailand is 138bill.....we're still lagiing behind, but considering we're just started in 2001 , we're doing very good

1 con en khong lam nen mua xuan, nhung nhieu con en se lam nen mua xuan.
1 thang viet cong chet se khong co gi, nhung nhieu thang viet cong chet Vietnam se som thanh rong hehe

...

Hey Bang... I wish I had the command of the Vietnamese language like you :) . It'll take me awhile to digest the meaning :down:, but it's really good :)

you know it's not the cheap labour that attracts foreign investors.....cheap labours they can find that anywhere in Asia or Africa or Latin america. But I think they choose VN because of it's strategic location. from Vn you can reach all the major cities in asia in just 2 hours by air: hong kong, bangkok, singapore, kuala Lumpur, Taipei, Manila etc.

and unlike Indonesia, Malaysia or Phllipines, with many islands.....from VN you can transport your products by land, sea or air beautifuly.
you know the cost of transporting is something the same or more expensive than the product itself.

oh talking about Vietnamese I have to tell ya ....today I met a chinese-viet CHoLon dude, his Vietnamese is so so bad, I swear it's so bad......but he cuss everything in Vietnamese so funny, I couldn't stop laughing. "Lu Ma, lu ma".....he kept repeating the same cussing word in every sentence. I thought only Viet people made fun of Chinese like that, but when you actually met it in person hehe

but he cuss everything in Vietnamese so funny, I couldn't stop laughing. "Lu Ma, lu ma".....he kept repeating the same cussing word in every sentence. I thought only Viet people made fun of Chinese like that, but when you actually met it in person hehe

Oh Bang. Geez... you owe me a new keyboard :lol:

Doubtful that they ever let go telecommunications!!! If they let go of telecommunications, they won't have a conduit for communist propaganda... BTW, if the telecommunication is wide open, democracy will dawn on VN. Corruption will definitely be kept in check and watch for the good people of VN with great entrepreneurial spirit and intellectual prowess to turn VN into one of the newest and strongest tiger of Asia. Mark my words if that is the case. Watch out Seoul, Korea!!!

Oh well, I can only dream :nuts:

Why do people think that Democracy will impede corruption? Good Governing impedes corruption NOT democracy. Vietnam surpassed Phillippines by one rank in 2005 of The Corruption Index even though Philippines is modeled after United States, and its freedom of press is WAAAAAAAY much better than Vietnam. I'm not even comparing the Phillippines with China even though Philippines had so much less population and bureaucracy to deal with.

Let's hear what Lee Kuan Yew, the man who transformed a Southeast Asian (yet East Asian culturally just like Vietnam with a blend of two culture) city into a First world city-state:
http://www.fareedzakaria.com/articles/other/culture.html

FZ: But these children are absorbing influences different from your generation. You say that knowledge, life-styles, culture all spread rapidly in this world. Will not the idea of democracy and individual rights also spread?

LKY: Let's not get into a debate on semantics. The system of government in China will change. It will change in Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam. It is changing in Singapore. But it will not end up like the American or British or French or German systems. What are we all seeking? A form of government that will be comfortable, because it meets our needs, is not oppressive, and maximizes our opportunities. And whether you have one-man, one-vote or some-men, one vote or other men, two votes, those are forms which should be worked out. I'm not intellectually convinced that one-man, one-vote is the best. We practice it because that's what the British bequeathed us and we haven't really found a need to challenge that. But I'm convinced, personally, that we would have a better system if we gave every man over the age of 40 who has a family two votes because he's likely to be more careful, voting also for his children. He is more likely to vote in a serious way than a capricious young man under 30. But we haven't found it necessary yet. If it became necessary we should do it. At the same time, once a person gets beyond 65, then it is a problem. Between the ages of 40 and 60 is ideal, and at 60 they should go back to one vote, but that will be difficult to arrange.

I'm myself a Vietnamese American, but I think the Vietnamese-Americans are Westernized in a sense is that we tend to put emphasis on ideologies too much, while in my opinion it's much better to be pragmatic. And you know how pragmatic Vietnamese people can be... especially in religion :lol:

1 con en khong lam nen mua xuan, nhung nhieu con en se lam nen mua xuan.
1 thang viet cong chet se khong co gi, nhung nhieu thang viet cong chet Vietnam se som thanh rong hehe

ey so after bush came so the stock exchange, Vn stock martket is now 6 billions? Thailand is 138bill.....we're still lagiing behind, but considering we're just started in 2001 , we're doing very good

Thoi di! Lam gi con co Viet Cong nua! chi con nguoi Vietnam thoi!

Thoi di! Lam gi con co Viet Cong nua! chi con nguoi Vietnam thoi!

Today's Tues, and these're the best words I've heard since monday :wink2:

There are no more Viet Congs, just a lot of bloodsucking communists

And you know how pragmatic Vietnamese people can be... especially in religion :lol:

Yeah, I'm very pragmatic. I don't trust the government to correct itself. But I trust the people of VN to do it right :lol:

I respect Lee Kuan Yew very much. He is one of the elder statesmen in the world. I think his way (soft-authoritarianism) was best for a developing country who was competing a life and death struggle against communist totalitarianism. But once you have a huge middle class with a stable order, then the it changes. Like it or not society and people change over time. What works one day does not mean it will work in the future. Evolutionary process takes care of ideas that will work best. That's why even the communists had to change. Deng Xiaoping knew that orthodox communist economics will not provide what the people want.

It's very vexing problem to change without creating chaos. I think in some measures Asia is still very behind the West, especially in the intellectual sphere. In Asia, there has never been the Age of Enlightenment, or the Renaissance so while it is a wealthy, the intellectual achievement and thought have not yet caught up with the West.

By the way, the capitalization of Saigon stock market is so tiny, it is almost laughable. I hope more companies will be privatized soon. I just wish they let invisible hand of capital do its magic.

Yeah, I'm very pragmatic. I don't trust the government to correct itself. But I trust the people of VN to do it right :lol:
And fortunately the government right now actually recognizes that the most valuable resource of Vietnam is Vietnamese people

I respect Lee Kuan Yew very much. He is one of the elder statesmen in the world. I think his way (soft-authoritarianism) was best for a developing country who was competing a life and death struggle against communist totalitarianism. But once you have a huge middle class with a stable order, then the it changes. Like it or not society and people change over time.
Thus Democracy does not necessarily bring poor countries to wealth. Democracy can only achieve when the country's economy is favorable which creates a large middle-class. Even then, one has to ask why Singapore and Japan's politics is dominated by one party throughout its industrialization process.

It's very vexing problem to change without creating chaos. I think in some measures Asia is still very behind the West, especially in the intellectual sphere. In Asia, there has never been the Age of Enlightenment, or the Renaissance so while it is a wealthy, the intellectual achievement and thought have not yet caught up with the West.
I think that the industrialization was Europe's advantage as many achievements of non European countries became overshadowed, but the intellectual sphere will shift back when China and India's economies regain their status.

And fortunately the government right now actually recognizes that the most valuable resource of Vietnam is Vietnamese people


Thus Democracy does not necessarily bring poor countries to wealth. Democracy can only achieve when the country's economy is favorable which creates a large middle-class. Even then, one has to ask why Singapore and Japan's politics is dominated by one party throughout its industrialization process.


I think that the industrialization was Europe's advantage as many achievements of non European countries became overshadowed, but the intellectual sphere will shift back when China and India's economies regain their status.

I absolutely agree with u saying that democracy does not make poor countries wealthier,but could be worse like countries in Africa.Democracy is a luxury product "made in the West" because as you said,European has a long history of democracy:surviving by bargains,states formation relying on Assembly in roman model and so on.We must to notice that Europe was composed by a multi fractioned countries and regions which is headed by a landlord.The form of Europe now is just made through wars but also through bargains or we all know that bargains is a common practices in representative democracy around the world.So the europeans have a long tradition of these stuff.
On the contrary,Asian countries was essentially formed by wars and by invasions of anothers.Rarely bargains can serve to solve the thirst of power and expansion.Thus,Lee Kwan Yew is more or less right saying that may be Asian tend to be freer in the future but could not follow the European model or American model.First reason is the lag in politic and social research.But second reason and i think the most significative one,is our society was modeled throughout history Differently.
I can hardly realize a truely free Japanese society because without tackling politic question,the society itself is strongly under control of Orient philosophy(Confusianism....etc).People must respect rite,custom and tradition not alike in America with no tradition,no history and no concret identity.

^^i feel a common string of thought...

South Korea, Japan, Taiwan etc are vibrant Democracies even through they've had absolute monarchy pasts so I don't understand why the rest of Asia can't be Democratised.

Vietnam, with a history of greater liberalism and communal democracy so the transition to parliamentary Democracy should be easier than South Korea and Japan, not harder.

2 famster: chẳng lẽ bạn lại so s?nh b?o ch? trong nước với b?o ch? hải ngoại, chẳng lẽ ti?u chuẩn b?o ch? ch?nh thống lại dựa v?o b?o ch? hải ngoại? N?i vậy chẳng nhẽ kh?ng thể l?m tốt hơn sao?

Một tờ b?o nếu muốn c? c?i nh?n độc lập th? trước ti?n phải kh?ch quan. Người l?m b?o kh?ng bao giờ đc trung lập, tuy nhi?n phải lu?n trung thực. Đ? đến l?c phải tập đối mặt với nhiều ? kiến ri?ng biệt, với nhiều chỉ tr?ch. C?ng nhiều chỉ tr?ch, x? hội sẽ c?ng vững mạnh. Dẫu biết đ?i hỏi việc n?y l? hơi qu? đối với b?o ch? trong nước v? nh? b?o trong nước lu?n chịu sức ?p từ ch?nh phủ, từ Đảng. Tuy nhi?n, những người l?m b?o trong nước phải phổ biến một hiểu biết chung về những quyền khả thi của m?nh. B?o ch? kh?ng n?n "dĩ h?a vi qu?" ma phải lu?n đấu tranh tới c?ng. Bộ VHTT c? thể đ?ng cửa, treo b?t 1,2 tạp ch?...bộ c? thể dẹp một l?c tất cả c?c tờ b?o như Thanh Ni?n, Tuổi Trẻ, Người Lao động kh?ng?

The Philippines gov't might be corrupted, but the economy is still better than ours, I take it as a fact.

The Philippines gov't might be corrupted, but the economy is still better than ours, I take it as a fact.
it should be much better than it is as philippines didn't have any costly war like Vietnam after WWII

Vietnam have a much lower poverty rate than the Philippines and Vietnam's potential and momentum is much greater

The Philippines gov't might be corrupted, but the economy is still better than ours, I take it as a fact.

The fact is that the Philipines had 46 years of development in a liberal approach of economics(trade liberation,no States interventions etc ) since independence from the Dutch and American and see what they get now:GDP/inh 1100USD and will be about 1200UsD next year.Vietnam 2007:820USD/inh.
GDP Philipines:95 USD Billions and will be about 100 Billions in 2007
GDP VN :70 USD Billion in 2007
Growth rate:Philipines between 5-6 pct years in ten coming years AT BEST(in economics sciences,there is something called "growth path or growth trajectory.The Phillipines growth rate attain its max at 6,5 pct comparing to 11-12 pct of VN (see David Capice -Responsable of Vietnam program at Havard University)
Viet Nam :8-10pct in ten coming years

At this growth rate,it will be a matter of time that we will surpass the philipines at head to Thailand level at no time.In 30 years,the economic growth potential of Vietnam,even undervaluated by economist (golman sach report) will still attain 5-6 pct.It's very good comparing to all others developing countries and can compete with the growth rate of Korea since its development process.

Yeap! sooner or later, Vn will past philipines! i think in next 5 years!

To Monsooner,

Di~ nhie^n la` kho^ng bo gio*` ne^n du`ng ba'o VN ha?i ngoa.i dde^? la`m thu*o*'c ddo cho su*. trung thu*.c cu?a ba'o chi' ddu*o*.c! Co' ddie^`u la` 1 so^' ngu*o*`i Vie^.t o*? ha?i ngoa.i, ma` da^~n dda^`u la` gio*'i truye^`n tho^ng ha?i ngoa.i, luo^n chi? tri'ch ba'o chi' trong nu*o*'c la` "ca'i loa cu?a DCSVN" va` vi` the^', thie^'u su*. trung thu*.c. Ba`i vie^'t cu?a ba.n na`o ddu*a le^n dda^y cu~ng kho^ng ngoa`i mu.c ddi'ch na`y ddo'.

Ba.n tu*o*?ng tu*o*.ng la` ba'o chi' VN ha?i ngoa.i (My~) ddang so^'ng tre^n vu`ng dda^'t co' the^? no'i la` tu*. do nha^'t the^' gio*'i na`y ma` va^~n kho^ng the^? thoa't kho?i ca?nh "nha` ba'o no'i la'o a(n tie^`n" thi` mong gi` nhie^`u ho*n tu*` ba'o trong nu*o*'c?! Ba?n tha^n famster, to^i tha^'y la` ne^'u no'i ve^` trung thu*.c, ba'o trong nu*o*'c co`n kha' ho*n ba'o ha?i ngoa.i ra^'t nhie^`u. Ho. co' su*. kie^?m duye^.t cu?a nha` nu*o*'c nhu*ng co' ve? va^~n co^' ga('ng dde^? dda^?y mu*'c kie^?m duye^.t ddo' xuo^'ng tha^'p ho*n nu*~a dde^? co' the^m tu*. do trong hoa.t ddo^.ng cu?a ho. Trong khi ddo', ba'o chi' VN ha?i ngoa.i thi` hoa`n toa`n kho^ng co' ai kie^?m duye^.t nhu*ng la.i lo*.i du.ng su*. tu*. do ddo' dde^? bi.a dda(.t, tho^?i pho^`ng tin tu*'c mo^.t ca'ch vo^ tra'ch nhie^.m!

To Monsooner,

Di~ nhie^n la` kho^ng bo gio*` ne^n du`ng ba'o VN ha?i ngoa.i dde^? la`m thu*o*'c ddo cho su*. trung thu*.c cu?a ba'o chi' ddu*o*.c! Co' ddie^`u la` 1 so^' ngu*o*`i Vie^.t o*? ha?i ngoa.i, ma` da^~n dda^`u la` gio*'i truye^`n tho^ng ha?i ngoa.i, luo^n chi? tri'ch ba'o chi' trong nu*o*'c la` "ca'i loa cu?a DCSVN" va` vi` the^', thie^'u su*. trung thu*.c. Ba`i vie^'t cu?a ba.n na`o ddu*a le^n dda^y cu~ng kho^ng ngoa`i mu.c ddi'ch na`y ddo'.

Ba.n tu*o*?ng tu*o*.ng la` ba'o chi' VN ha?i ngoa.i (My~) ddang so^'ng tre^n vu`ng dda^'t co' the^? no'i la` tu*. do nha^'t the^' gio*'i na`y ma` va^~n kho^ng the^? thoa't kho?i ca?nh "nha` ba'o no'i la'o a(n tie^`n" thi` mong gi` nhie^`u ho*n tu*` ba'o trong nu*o*'c?! Ba?n tha^n famster, to^i tha^'y la` ne^'u no'i ve^` trung thu*.c, ba'o trong nu*o*'c co`n kha' ho*n ba'o ha?i ngoa.i ra^'t nhie^`u. Ho. co' su*. kie^?m duye^.t cu?a nha` nu*o*'c nhu*ng co' ve? va^~n co^' ga('ng dde^? dda^?y mu*'c kie^?m duye^.t ddo' xuo^'ng tha^'p ho*n nu*~a dde^? co' the^m tu*. do trong hoa.t ddo^.ng cu?a ho. Trong khi ddo', ba'o chi' VN ha?i ngoa.i thi` hoa`n toa`n kho^ng co' ai kie^?m duye^.t nhu*ng la.i lo*.i du.ng su*. tu*. do ddo' dde^? bi.a dda(.t, tho^?i pho^`ng tin tu*'c mo^.t ca'ch vo^ tra'ch nhie^.m!

I like U, I love U!
You have a deep thinkings in this issues!

The view from both side

Wantuhoa,

You should read Lee Kuan Yew's memoirs from "Third World to First World". It is an excellent read. He delves into so many regions and subjects. I have to disagree with you on your analysis of the Philippines though. The PI does not have an American style democracy. It may have the form but not the substance. The PI was a colony of Spain for over 400 years while in contrast it was only under US control for less than 50 years, from 1898 to 1946. In addition, the problem of the PI is not because of democracy, you have to remember it was ruled by Marcos under martial law for over 30 years. It is a lot more complex than simply authoritarianism versus liberal democracy. The problem with the PI is the lack of constitutionalism. The political elites there do not follow the constitutional process to resolve differences politically. Its political institutions are rather weak. That's why you have instability, cronyism, and intrigue through coups and populist politicians like Estrada. Additionally, the PI never really had a comprehesive land reform like in S.Korea, Thailand, Malaysia, and Taiwan. Therefore, there is a HUGE difference in wealth between a few families that own enormous wealth with land and the underprivileged poor with no land. Legacy of the PI is more in common with S.America than Asia. And these few families have influence in the political order in the PI. There is no middle class. Plus, most of the educated people in the PI work overseas and send back remittances. There is no trust in the system for FDI. And the PI is not making an effort for Industrialization through cultivation of labor intensive economy.

Authoritarianism, initially, works when a country is at the takeoff stage for development and if the ruling elite has the right VISION about FDI, protection of property rights, and non-interference in the market economy. But it is absolutely disastrous when you have authoritarian government with the wrong vision like Vietnam in 1975 - 1986, Laos, and Cambodia. Additionally, the political system has to change when the economy move from labor intensive economy to a higher value added economy like Taiwan and S.Korea. The advanced economy is engaged in software development, design, multimedia industry, etc. Industries that require critical thinking skill, innovation, creativitiy, and knowledge. All of these components are essential for intellectual property which is mostly in the first world. Moreover, these components can only thrive in a democratic society with individual freedom that's the commonality with advanced G-7 countries. There's a difference between brawn power development and brain power development.

It remains to be seen if Vietnam can make the transition. I know a lot of you guys don't delve into political science, political economy or economic development. But there's a rich literature out there for that.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=15

Here's a map of the world divided between free (political and economic) and not free regions. I don't know who said Africa was democratic but I laughed so hard I almost fail off my chair. Historically, poor countries are always an authoritarian dictatorship not a liberal democracy. The only developed country in Africa is S. Africa and it is Free. Corruption is a huge problem in the developing countries, the only way to alleviate that is openess, transparency, and the rule of law. Those things can only thrive in a democratic society.

Corruption is a huge problem in the developing countries, the only way to alleviate that is openess, transparency, and the rule of law. Those things can only thrive in a democratic society.
Siddude,
You're so right but I'm afraid a lot of stuffs you said just went swoosh!!! over :nuts:. It's so laughable to read some poster claiming how to deal with corruption in an authoritarian state :lol: . Oh well, with forum like this, it's very encouraging for the future of the VN people :)

Wantuhoa,

You should read Lee Kuan Yew's memoirs from "Third World to First World". It is an excellent read. He delves into so many regions and subjects. I have to disagree with you on your analysis of the Philippines though. The PI does not have an American style democracy. It may have the form but not the substance.
What make you think then that democracy will work in Vietnam right now when the Vietnamese society only has a small growing middle class? That's why I prefer a more authortiative state than a democratic state for Vietnam.

The PI was a colony of Spain for over 400 years while in contrast it was only under US control for less than 50 years, from 1898 to 1946. In addition, the problem of the PI is not because of democracy, you have to remember it was ruled by Marcos under martial law for over 30 years. It is a lot more complex than simply authoritarianism versus liberal democracy. The problem with the PI is the lack of constitutionalism. The political elites there do not follow the constitutional process to resolve differences politically. Its political institutions are rather weak. That's why you have instability, cronyism, and intrigue through coups and populist politicians like Estrada.
However, it IS the ideological democracy that allows people such as Marcos or other South American leaders who used martial laws on their country.

Additionally, the PI never really had a comprehesive land reform like in S.Korea, Thailand, Malaysia, and Taiwan. Therefore, there is a HUGE difference in wealth between a few families that own enormous wealth with land and the underprivileged poor with no land. Legacy of the PI is more in common with S.America than Asia. And these few families have influence in the political order in the PI. There is no middle class. Plus, most of the educated people in the PI work overseas and send back remittances. There is no trust in the system for FDI. And the PI is not making an effort for Industrialization through cultivation of labor intensive economy.
I agree with this quote. However, Industrialization is a painful process which can be impeded by the "democracy". Looking back at history, whenever there was industrialization, there will be union strikes, land protests and enviromental degradation. Thus with authoritarism under good leaders who have more of holistic outlooks, they will realize that there will be sacrifices; while under democracy, leaders are elected to accomodate short-sighted problems. That's what happening in South America right now.

Authoritarianism, initially, works when a country is at the takeoff stage for development and if the ruling elite has the right VISION about FDI, protection of property rights, and non-interference in the market economy. But it is absolutely disastrous when you have authoritarian government with the wrong vision like Vietnam in 1975 - 1986, Laos, and Cambodia.
Yes, but it did work under Park Chung Hee, Mahathir, and Lee Kuan Yew's authoriative presidency.


Additionally, the political system has to change when the economy move from labor intensive economy to a higher value added economy like Taiwan and S.Korea. The advanced economy is engaged in software development, design, multimedia industry, etc. Industries that require critical thinking skill, innovation, creativitiy, and knowledge. All of these components are essential for intellectual property which is mostly in the first world. Moreover, these components can only thrive in a democratic society with individual freedom that's the commonality with advanced G-7 countries. There's a difference between brawn power development and brain power development.
Yes and I agree with this. However, the transition TO democracy can only be achieved when the country's economy is favorable and on the brink of newly developed.


It remains to be seen if Vietnam can make the transition. I know a lot of you guys don't delve into political science, political economy or economic development. But there's a rich literature out there for that.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=15

Here's a map of the world divided between free (political and economic) and not free regions. I don't know who said Africa was democratic but I laughed so hard I almost fail off my chair. Historically, poor countries are always an authoritarian dictatorship not a liberal democracy.
Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, and Malaysia was no way a liberal democracy when their economy grew rapidly. For some reasons, the economy grew the highest during the harsh authoritarian presidency.

The only developed country in Africa is S. Africa and it is Free. Corruption is a huge problem in the developing countries, the only way to alleviate that is openess, transparency, and the rule of law. Those things can only thrive in a democratic society
I agree that transparency, openess, and defined laws are the path to alleviate the corruption''s problem however I disagree that these can be achieved through democracy. Can you explain why China is much less corrupted compared to India while India is the largest free democracy in the world?

Wantuhoa,

Thanks for your input. I never advocated an American style liberal democratic system at this stage of VN's development. Fact is, I don't know one way or the other. It's a very complex issue. People are not omniscient. I do believe in political pluralism though because I can see the danger of one group or party with absolute power. With economic development also comes a lot of problems and headaches like income disparity between rich and poor. Environmental degradation, waste, dislocation of farmers, etc. etc. China is going to the same pangs. There's so much civil disturbance in China now and people are barely aware of it. Especially, about farmers clashing with officials because they are being forced off their land. The three Gorges Dam is a disaster. I would rather have an evolutionary process rather than a revolutionary process. There has to be a consensus between people, factions, groups and so on. One way or the other there will be changes coming for VN because with high growth rates come expectations. I'm not advocating anything. I'm just putting my 2 cents about things I know a little bit about.

Wantuhoa,

Thanks for your input. I never advocated an American style liberal democratic system at this stage of VN's development. Fact is, I don't know one way or the other. It's a very complex issue. People are not omniscient. I do believe in political pluralism though because I can see the danger of one group or party with absolute power. With economic development also comes a lot of problems and headaches like income disparity between rich and poor. Environmental degradation, waste, dislocation of farmers, etc. etc. China is going to the same pangs. There's so much civil disturbance in China now and people are barely aware of it. Especially, about farmers clashing with officials because they are being forced off their land. The three Gorges Dam is a disaster. I would rather have an evolutionary process rather than a revolutionary process. There has to be a consensus between people, factions, groups and so on. One way or the other there will be changes coming for VN because with high growth rates come expectations. I'm not advocating anything. I'm just putting my 2 cents about things I know a little bit about.

Well I think the Vietnamese government right now has too many flaws and I'm really not happy with it.
But the dislocation of farmer, land protests, and union protests during industrialization era is ubiquitous in all industrialized nation in the past.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pullman_strike
This is the exact thing that is happening in Vietnam and China right now like in the past where the constant union protests were stopped by VIOLENT force of the US government. I think it's very hypocritical that the western world especially the US to criticize China while US did the same thing to its own citizen during the industrialization process.

totally agree...


democracy will only work once vietnam has developed a stable middle class that is majority...


look at thailand because of its "democracy"... there are constant coup d'etat their constitutional monarchy has only been around for lik 60 yrs?(correct me) and there have been at least a dozen coups.


i'm sorry to say but an authoritarian gov't keeps the country stable while it develops

its the truth, this does not mean that i think ANY of the repressive authoritarian gov'ts are good at all

you know who should be leading Vietnam? us
us smart smart and cool oversea kids....

we have no time for trash, bribery, we take things seriously.....we don't swear, we 're not brainwashed by communism.
we wear exspensive brand name clothes....we know how to speak MSN slangs.....I mean what can top that?

oh yeah we don't swear, do we?

LOL!

oh bang i luv u

u make me crack up

the only thing i dont agree with u is the "swearing" and cursing thing

hehe

i try not to swear alot =/ i hope that counts

you know who should be leading Vietnam? us
us smart smart and cool oversea kids....

we have no time for trash, bribery, we take things seriously.....we don't swear, we 're not brainwashed by communism.
we wear exspensive brand name clothes....we know how to speak MSN slangs.....I mean what can top that?

:lol: very good.You have a vision.Show me your true identity and if i have some power in Vietnam,i will never let you enter.No just kidding and i hope you're kidding too.
Two big problems with your idea:
First,not every Viet oversea kids are cool and smart.There is something called Genetic and i don't like the idea that a kid of an Vietnamese Professor is more stupid than a kid of an person doing nail in the US.
Second,speaking MSN slangs to Vietnamese don't raise your value.The first thing to do is to speak Vietnamese properly.

sorry con Viet Kieu thi se lam viet kieu, con VC lai tiep tuc di quet la da

First,not every Viet oversea kids are cool and smart.There is something called Genetic and i don't like the idea that a kid of an Vietnamese Professor is more stupid than a kid of an person doing nail in the US.

yeh i agree, just because the majority of oversea viet family is successful means that people back in vietnam are stupid...
dude u should hav more respect for our brothers back home...
they are the ones that are gonna change vietnam...


and about the nail thing... i get offended when people associate viets with nail salons...even though its true for most viet kieu... i hate it becuz it does not apply to me and anyone in my whole extended family

i hav pride in my family bcuz we are an example of an accomplished family (w/o the nails), but hav held on to our heritage and who we are....

Thoi di! Lam gi con co Viet Cong nua! chi con nguoi Vietnam thoi!

yeah, nguoi VN bat nhung nguoi vietnam khac phai ca tung CS, ai chong lai se bi bop co.

eerrr... bang can u do me a favor..

can u write in english a little more cuz im feeling left out

hehe it takes me too long to read vietnamese

ha
People in Vietnam are not stupid, but they're so used to bribery and corruption that I'm scared to give them the power.

I'm shocked when I saw the police asked for bribes, but even more so when my family and my little cousins treated as a normal everyday thing. even in education, you want a good school, grade = bribe
that's not normal for a society.

and all the paper works, the beaucracy in Vn they work when they wanted or they closed down the office to go hollidays in Vung Tau, or nap, or go home.

sorry go learn Vietnamese....I might speak chinese soon and you can not catch up

=P blah.... oh well i tried

guess i just hav to learn my viet...



yeh wut u said earlier about EVERYTHING envolving bribery
when i went to vietnam i knew a teacher and she said that one college diploma in vietnam is worthless becuz many people with money can just buy their way into college and people cheat like crazy! teachers get bribed to give answers. its pretty much unfair in every single aspect of viet society for the poor.

its crazy there needs to be major reforms before we can do anything right

love to see a few economists among the group...fatcat, siddue, etc...
Lee Kwan Yew is the face that the world see in light of Singapore's miracle development...but the mastermind behind Singapore's economy is Dr. Goh Kang Swee...who conveys that theory and reality are very different...i'm glad to hear in the news that vn authorities are following Singapore's model...call it "ti`m ddu*o*`ng so^'ng trong co?i che^'t"...S.Kor, Taiwan, Jap, they all have US behind their back...so good for vn.

...us smart smart and cool oversea kids....

we have no time for trash, bribery, we take things seriously.....we don't swear, we 're not brainwashed by communism.

we wear exspensive brand name clothes....we know how to speak MSN slangs.....I mean what can top that?
oh bang, you're a laugh riot :lol:

=P blah.... oh well i tried

guess i just hav to learn my viet...
find yourselves a good Viet speaking girlfriend :) , try to speak and learn as much in Vietnamese as you can. You'll eventually get comfortable :lol: ... It worked for me :nuts:. I can converse pretty good with a stranger on the street now. And don't be shy to ask for help. However, it's gonna be a long time that you get as good as "bang"...

find yourselves a good Viet speaking girlfriend :) , try to speak and learn as much in Vietnamese as you can. You'll eventually get comfortable :lol: ... It worked for me :nuts:. I can converse pretty good with a stranger on the street now. And don't be shy to ask for help. However, it's gonna be a long time that you get as good as "bang"...


LoL!! thats what happen to me :) I got myself a vietnamese speaking gf, a good one at that, and now I can almost speak vietnamese like every other vietnamese out there. the only thing I need to learn now is to write in vietnamese, I hate those marks!! We're getting marry soon, so I'll have plenty of time to learn. :)

Its Peanut butter jelly time! peanut butter jelly time! :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: sorry

yeh i agree, just because the majority of oversea viet family is successful means that people back in vietnam are stupid...
dude u should hav more respect for our brothers back home...
they are the ones that are gonna change vietnam...


and about the nail thing... i get offended when people associate viets with nail salons...even though its true for most viet kieu... i hate it becuz it does not apply to me and anyone in my whole extended family

i hav pride in my family bcuz we are an example of an accomplished family (w/o the nails), but hav held on to our heritage and who we are....
My best friend's sister owns 2 nail shops and she is making $20,000 USD/month; that's nothing to be offended about.

Of course i don't offend anyone.Don't misunderstand my idea.I just reveal one or two problem behind Bang idea.I really appreciate VK and their kid simply because half of my family in the States right now.But by luck they have all a good job so,their kids go to good college in USA.But every time they return to Vietnam for visiting,i'm so up sad that,except my oncles and aunts who have no problem with speaking in Vietnamese,their kids possess a very limited capacity communicating in Vietnamese.But since i could speak a little bit in English(i'm basically a Frech speaking ),there was not a big problem.
On the contrary,we have no problem of adaptation.I get used to their aptitude partly because i'm myself studying abroad,but their thirst of knowledge about their origine and their country.That make me very pleasure.Normally when the familly return to VN,they return to Saigon where they departed 30 years ago but only once they return to Hanoi(i precise that they are Bac 54 as Bang usually said)their kids and i were riding motocycles together around Hanoi.My oncle and aunts said that they will return to VN but they will not return to Saigon because they prefer Hanoi.
I appreciate that kind of VK.But the others who stay all day without doing anythings (teach their kids speaking VNese correctly for ex)but injure the government everything from smallest to biggest things.That attitude will not make Vietnam leap on avance.

Fatcat, just want you to know that it is very difficult to get the kids to speak Vietnamese when they live outside of the country. In the U.S., for example, the first wave of Vietnamese had to work very hard to make a living (when they first came to America). The children mostly went to childcare centers or babysitters who are non-Vietnamese. These kids therefore grew up not being able to speak Vietnamese. At that time, the Vietnamese didn't have the opportunity to cluster together like now. There was no "Little Saigon", for example.

The Vietnamese who came much later (or of 2nd generation) were more advantagious because there were already Vietnamese clusters with all the services available. Vietnamese-language schools on saturdays at churches or temples, for example!

All of my children were able to speak, read, and write Vietnamese, thanks to these schools. But that was when they were young. Unfortunately, when they became teenagers, they start to speak more and more and more English and less and less and even less Vietnamese. It is a sad thing for parents to watch! Even so, I believe that once they have already learnt the language, they would be able to to regain the knowlege if necessary.

In short, most VKs want to retain the language and culture in their children but it is not up to them whether or not their kids do the same. Hopefully, the Vietnamese blood of "con rong chau tien" will keep them true to their 'motherland', a motherland that is so far and so different from the land they were born and are living in!

So how do you guys think about the Vietnamese education system?

...I hate those marks!! We're getting marry soon, so I'll have plenty of time to learn. :)
pssst.... geez, you let the cat out :wink2: . That what I keep telling my nieces and nephews if they want to learn to speak Vietnamese well :) .

Fatcat, just want you to know that it is very difficult to get the kids to speak Vietnamese when they live outside of the country. In the U.S., for example, the first wave of Vietnamese had to work very hard to make a living (when they first came to America). The children mostly went to childcare centers or babysitters who are non-Vietnamese. These kids therefore grew up not being able to speak Vietnamese. At that time, the Vietnamese didn't have the opportunity to cluster together like now. There was no "Little Saigon", for example.

The Vietnamese who came much later (or of 2nd generation) were more advantagious because there were already Vietnamese clusters with all the services available. Vietnamese-language schools on saturdays at churches or temples, for example!

All of my children were able to speak, read, and write Vietnamese, thanks to these schools. But that was when they were young. Unfortunately, when they became teenagers, they start to speak more and more and more English and less and less and even less Vietnamese. It is a sad thing for parents to watch! Even so, I believe that once they have already learnt the language, they would be able to to regain the knowlege if necessary.

In short, most VKs want to retain the language and culture in their children but it is not up to them whether or not their kids do the same. Hopefully, the Vietnamese blood of "con rong chau tien" will keep them true to their 'motherland', a motherland that is so far and so different from the land they were born and are living in!

This is true that when the kids become teenagers,they speech less and less Vietnamese.My uncle told me that they must let the kids the freedom to choose their futures so their way of communication.
Famster,you just make me recall all the stories that my aunts and uncles told me about how they fleed the country.I think that i understood what our Viet oversea peoples must endure during these hard days.I think the fucking person responsable for that human drama must be shoot ten times in their front.But they all died.:bash:

you know what will make the Vietnamese children overseas learn vietnamese?

when Vietnam become rich, powerful and free, etc....

with the current situation.....i think Vietnamese children oversea will even deny their background to foreigners.

-why do I have to care about a poor communism country?...they asked
-because it's your motherland........some people might telll them
-but I live in the US, Canada, France, OZ, ENgland....life here is way better, I have everything......the children said.
-but you shouldn't forget about your background and heritage.....some people say.
-but I have my life here to live, and Vietname offers me nothing but shame.....the children replied


it's a reflection from me to you.......think about it

Absolutely. When there is wealth, there is more culture (there's a Vietnamese saying that prosperity brings elaborate custom, traditions and culture). And if there is more culture and wealth, there is more pride. Just look at South Korea, Japan, Taiwan and China for example.

-why do I have to care about a poor communism country?...they asked
-because it's your motherland........some people might telll them
-but I live in the US, Canada, France, OZ, ENgland....life here is way better, I have everything......the children said.
-but you shouldn't forget about your background and heritage.....some people say.
-but I have my life here to live, and Vietname offers me nothing but shame.....the children replied


it's a reflection from me to you.......think about it bang, it's the reality. I read somewhere that the commie party in Saigon was promoting some kind of favorable environment trying to attract talents overseas, very few showed up!!!

Capee, i totally agree with you on the subject; However, from what i've known is that not many people have the opportunity to live and work there eventhough they really wanted.

PhoAve,
I ran into a VN foreign student here in the States (his family is higher up in the commie party in SG...). He revealed that he has no desire to go back to VN after his grad study if he doesn't have to. He said he couldn't use his talent to the fullest and he'd feel very uncomfortable with the political climate!!! The dichotomy is real strange to say the least. I just wonder if this guy is a black sheep in his family :nuts: or it's the norm for VN students that were exposed to western society.

I have a cousin and a friend like that. My cousin came over as an exchange student, and no, her family isn't any part of the communism parties, but my family have enough money to buy her way over here :) When she got here and really liked the life that the USA can offer, she hook up with an American and got married and now she's here for as long as she wanted.

My friend on the other is a bit different, she's from Hue where her family is more traditional then most vietnamese. When she got here and didn't like way of life of other vietnamese thats living here in the US, "most of them are way too Americamzied" she said. which I can understand. after 3 years here in the US and a degree in Computer Networking, she when back to Vietnam and making a pretty good living there. She said Saigon can now offer almost anything you ever wanted in the US and more.

Bang wrote: "with the current situation.....i think Vietnamese children oversea will even deny their background to foreigners.

-why do I have to care about a poor communism country?...they asked
-because it's your motherland........some people might telll them
-but I live in the US, Canada, France, OZ, ENgland....life here is way better, I have everything......the children said.
-but you shouldn't forget about your background and heritage.....some people say.
-but I have my life here to live, and Vietname offers me nothing but shame.....the children replied"

Well, Bang, I disagree with you on this. My kids have never been "ashamed" of their Vietnamese heritage. They don't have any problem with a "commnunist" country, either. They have been back there 2 times and both times, they enjoyed the country tremendously. As far as they are concerned, Vietnam is still a poor country but they know the country had fought hard for its independence and more than that, they KNOW that Vietnam is the only country in the world that the United States ever lost a war to! As far as that, I think they have a lot of respect for Vietnam and its people and are even more proud to be Vietnamese themselves.

Do they want to "go back" to Vietnam to live? I doubt it. The reason is not anything you pointed out above but it's just because they were born and raised here in America. This IS their country, not Vietnam. This is the only country they know and are familiar with. Vietnam's being a poor or rich country is not the reason for them to "go back" there. To them, it is a place to go for a visit and after the visit, they want to "go back" to America simply because this is where they are from, not Vietnam!

What you teach your children is important. If you have something positive to say about Vietnam, then that idea will stay with them and they will have a better understanding and positive thinking about the country. If all you tell them are negative things, how do you expect them to "love" the country that they have never heard anything good about from their parents?!

it should be much better than it is as philippines didn't have any costly war like Vietnam after WWII

If you will trace the economic history of the Philippines... The Philippines used to be the second wealthiest nation in Asia after Japan but it's economy plunged down to the bottom during the 2nd term of Marcos due to his enormous corrupt practices... That was the beginning of the economic turmoil and political instability in the country... Had it not been to him, the Philippines may be enjoying the First World country status at the moment.

Good, we're beginning to rise again.... Our economy may not be the fastest or the second fastest but it is one of the fastest. Ou economy is rosy because of too much financial reforms of the government under Pres. Arroyo's leadership... In no time, we'll be joining the ranks of the most developed countries on earth.

you know it's not the cheap labour that attracts foreign investors.....cheap labours they can find that anywhere in Asia or Africa or Latin america. But I think they choose VN because of it's strategic location. from Vn you can reach all the major cities in asia in just 2 hours by air: hong kong, bangkok, singapore, kuala Lumpur, Taipei, Manila etc.

and unlike Indonesia, Malaysia or Phllipines, with many islands.....from VN you can transport your products by land, sea or air beautifuly.
you know the cost of transporting is something the same or more expensive than the product itself.


Yeah, that's actually the problem here in the Philippines... But the government has been doing to solve that problem by executing the "Roll On, Roll Off" program wherein the travel among the islands of Luzon, Visayas, and Mindanao will be easier because of direct route under the RORO program or roll on roll off... Another thing is that the governors of these island provinces in the Visayan region have already laid out their plans in connecting these Visayan Islands by building bridges, the longest one would cost at around 15 billion pesos (1 billion pesos per kilometer x 15 km.) or $300 million ($20 million per kilometer)..

you know what will make the Vietnamese children overseas learn vietnamese?

when Vietnam become rich, powerful and free, etc....

with the current situation.....i think Vietnamese children oversea will even deny their background to foreigners.

-why do I have to care about a poor communism country?...they asked
-because it's your motherland........some people might telll them
-but I live in the US, Canada, France, OZ, ENgland....life here is way better, I have everything......the children said.
-but you shouldn't forget about your background and heritage.....some people say.
-but I have my life here to live, and Vietname offers me nothing but shame.....the children replied


it's a reflection from me to you.......think about it

Bang,thanks for giving me a reflection and i'll take it seriously.Following my response:
First,i believe in individual emancipation and freedom.So,these kids was growing in the States and they prefers being an American.Fine with me.But either they're too narrow-minded or they're not mature enough when thinking so.They're ashamed of being a Vietnamese origine.OK,no prob -so just don't admit your origine and so don't ever care about the country.In fact,as a domestic Vietnamese (side by side with oversea one)i don't welcome such an individual.But i have smthings to tell to these kids,see how far you can go in American society?Beside elected in some major Vietnamese communities as representative,they couldn't never be elected else where by the white people-real American.If you're still thinking that American society accept all kind of people in politics,you're too naive.Beside Orange County and Houston-Texas,where you could ever find out a Viet representative ?????Where you could really find out a Viet CEO,CFO,director managers in a American corporation except in their own created firms ?Where you could ever find out a Viet figure with national scale in the US ?I really doubt there is a positive answer.:nono:
So what is the interest in learning and using properly your native language ?That's the point that i appreciate you,Bang as a oversea Viet,because your Vietnamese is enough incredible to start integrating in VN society.But some more need to be done before a fully integration almost in field of custom,ritual practices but also Vietnamese philosophy about life,duty and so on.Many of that was being razed by Communism philo but it's starting return to Vietnam society.When people become welthier,the meaning of life become more "noble" not just for money.So less corruption,less bureaucratic practices,more freedom before becoming a fully democratic society.Our ancester said " Phu' Quy' sinh Le Nghia".:okay:
I want to say congratulations to famster for his education to his child.I think it's a huge success comparing to my uncles and aunties in US.I personally think that VN is more and more welcoming them going back helping reconstruct the country and as a domestic Vietnamese,as soon as they engage to do so,i give my full support for it.Further,it's a gesture of heroism-new Heroism.Today you don't even have to die for something you cherish but living happily and in the same time doing somethings great for your motherland.tell me Bang,what is more wonderful ?^^

And last thing,whenever you cross a stranger outside the US,and when he's asking you where you are from,and then you answer him that you are American,just tell me the reaction of the stranger:
Did he fully believe you ???????(without showing your passport of course)

If you will trace the economic history of the Philippines... The Philippines used to be the second wealthiest nation in Asia after Japan but it's economy plunged down to the bottom during the 2nd term of Marcos due to his enormous corrupt practices... That was the beginning of the economic turmoil and political instability in the country... Had it not been to him, the Philippines may be enjoying the First World country status at the moment.

Good, we're beginning to rise again.... Our economy may not be the fastest or the second fastest but it is one of the fastest. Ou economy is rosy because of too much financial reforms of the government under Pres. Arroyo's leadership... In no time, we'll be joining the ranks of the most developed countries on earth.

Garland,with my full respect of Philipinos,i just want to say that you guys,Fillinos,are just wasting your precious time with the politic game.I know that you're cherish a lot your democratic system and society.But in the same time,this system pushed a million of fillipinos abroad working as housekeeping or house maid oversea.Just tell me,how much value-add that work create for the Philipines's economy ?Just tell me,is or is not the democracy make you guys happier ?Isn't Marcos is elected democratically ?
But thanks for your attention in our forum and u're always welcome here.

I don't think that communism is that bad ..if they ensure us with human rights I even would prefer communism over sth else in our current situation...there are so many conflicts as u can see...so we need someone who controls over it...we have to assign priorities...let Vietnam become a developed country and everything has been changed by then!

communism is not bad, it's just that the old communist thoeories ain't work.

anyway,it's bad for doing business.So forget it.

...but not in the case of Vietnam!

anyway,it's bad for doing business.So forget it.
fatcat,
I've heard the most complaint about doing business under commie from my relatives in VN is that there is "no-rule-of-law" even it's on the book. They will twist and turn to whatever they like, hence the rampant corruption. I just wonder how much concession the commie made to large international corporations in terms of intellectual properties and realestates in order for them do business in VN.

oh ya,u know wat,im really proud to be a VNmese! i love my country,but i really hate cummunism. The pure and old cummunism cannot survive,that's y they hav to change to be able to surive,like the case of VN and China. Actually,here in Singapore,VNmese students are always respected.
As long as the government is changing itself and the country in a good and positive way,i'll go back to VN to work. But now,i dun even think of working in VN right now,when everything is still in chaos and corruption is still a big prob.

oh ya,u know wat,im really proud to be a VNmese! i love my country,but i really hate cummunism. The pure and old cummunism cannot survive,that's y they hav to change to be able to surive,like the case of VN and China. Actually,here in Singapore,VNmese students are always respected.
As long as the government is changing itself and the country in a good and positive way,i'll go back to VN to work. But now,i dun even think of working in VN right now,when everything is still in chaos and corruption is still a big prob.

i heard there are a lot more rich vietnamese kids in Singapore.. but can you tell me about singaporean students' views on Vietnamese student? :)

chaos and corruption depend on the people...whether parliament or one-party-government...people are the same...and if they don't changed then chaos and corruption will still be there...escpecially for countries where the difference between rich and poor is still big!

this time i'm affraid you're wrong, tq, communism just makes the gap wider. Well, if you mention about recent european socialist models like Jan Marijnisen, or PDS or the Greens, then the reverse is true. But this is not the case in Vietnam!

According to the article from Centre for Social Sciences and Humanities NCSSH (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_go1534/is_200202/ai_n6815313)
THE gap between Vietnam's haves and have-nots may be widening more rapidly than previously thought, according to a new report by the National Centre for Social Sciences and Humanities (or NCSSH).

Up until recently, it was widely believed that income disparities in Vietnam were widening slowly and modestly. This conclusion was based on the two General Statistics Office surveys in 1993 and 1998 using expenditure data. This concluded that between 1993 and 1998, the gini coefficient increased slowly and modestly from 0.33 to 0.357. Zero is perfect equality and one is perfect inequality.

saigon_monsooner,
Interesting... that seems to go against much of what commie propaganda supposed to stand for!!! That explains why the support for the commie party in VN even eroded amongst their elite members!!! If the people of VN know how to do it right, VN will be the economy force to be reckoned with in SE Asia if not the world.

nói nhiều ta củng mệt đọc cái này rồi tự suy nghĩ

http://www.tuoitre.com.vn/Tianyon/Index.aspx?ArticleID=175620&ChannelID=3

Lãng phí kéo dài!

Theo chủ trương, cao ốc 1 - 5 Lê Duẩn, Q.1, TP.HCM được xây dựng để trở thành trụ sở chung cho các bộ ở phía Nam. Nay thuộc về ngành dầu khí Ảnh: T.T.D.

TT - Ngày 27-10-2006, nguyên thủ tướng Võ Văn Kiệt có gửi thư cho Ban chỉ đạo trung ương về phòng chống tham nhũng, lãng phí đề cập vấn đề lãng phí nhà, đất công của các văn phòng bộ, ngành phía Nam tại TP.HCM. Tuổi Trẻ xin đăng toàn bộ bức thư này. "Tôi đã nhiều lần ý kiến về việc lãng phí trong quản lý, sử dụng tài sản công, nhất là bất động sản như trụ sở cơ quan, nhà, đất của các bộ ở phía Nam..."

Trong chương trình hành động của Chính phủ về thực hiện Luật phòng chống tham nhũng và Luật thực hành tiết kiệm chống lãng phí được công bố công khai có việc tập trung thanh tra bốn lĩnh vực trọng tâm là đầu tư XDCB, quản lý và sử dụng đất đai, quản lý và thu chi ngân sách và quản lý tài sản công... Về các vấn đề khác, tôi đã có nhiều ý kiến phát biểu, nay chỉ xin tập trung có ý kiến về việc quản lý tài sản công.

Như các đồng chí biết và tôi cũng đã nhiều lần có ý kiến về việc lãng phí trong việc quản lý, sử dụng tài sản công, nhất là bất động sản như trụ sở cơ quan, nhà, đất của các bộ ở phía Nam (gọi là cơ sở 2). Xuất phát từ nguồn gốc sau 30-4-1975, giao cho các bộ, ngành có trách nhiệm tiếp quản bộ, ngành tương ứng của chế độ ngụy để lại, sau đó chuyển thành cơ sở 2 phía Nam của các bộ, ngành. Việc này đã kéo dài từ thời bao cấp và sau đó vẫn còn tồn tại.

Thường trực Chính phủ, tuy chậm, nhưng cũng đã thấy sự bất hợp lý và lãng phí trong sử dụng khối tài sản này nên đã bàn và thống nhất trong Chính phủ chủ trương giải thể các đại diện phía Nam (cơ sở 2), thu gọn, tập trung lại một nơi. Xây dựng một cao ốc tại số 5 Lê Duẩn, để khi các bộ vào làm việc phía Nam có chỗ nghỉ và làm việc. Số nhà, đất còn lại chuyển hết thành tài sản công (công sản), giao cho bộ có chức năng quản lý, sử dụng có hiệu quả nhất cho nhu cầu ngân sách hoặc cho quĩ dự trữ quốc gia.

Thực hiện chủ trương này, năm 1995, 1996 Thủ tướng Chính phủ đã giao cho một nhóm liên bộ điều tra, kê khai lại toàn bộ nhà, đất của các cơ quan này. Kết quả là một con số khổng lồ: diện tích chính 6.317.161m2, trong đó 311 biệt thự, 1.244 nhà phố, 178 cao ốc (số liệu năm 1995)... và hầu hết các trụ sở đều ở vị trí đắc địa. Nhiều bộ đã sát nhập từ 2, 3 đến 5 bộ (như Bộ NN&PTNT). Chủ trương này đã xúc tiến thực hiện và chuẩn bị đến 1998 (xây cao ốc số 5 Lê Duẩn đã xong phần khung nhà, phòng ốc về cơ bản). Sau đó đã có sự thay đổi, giữ nguyên cơ sở 2 của các bộ, cao ốc số 5 Lê Duẩn đã giao lại cho Tổng công ty Dầu khí làm trụ sở. Dự kiến hai năm sau hoàn thành, đến nay đã tám năm vẫn chưa thấy đưa vào sử dụng được - thêm một lãng phí nữa (tôi xin nói vào một dịp khác).

Những kết quả điều tra này có thể tìm ngay được từ các bộ và bảng tổng hợp cũng có sẵn ở Văn phòng Chính phủ nên không mất nhiều thời gian tìm kiếm. Thực hiện chương trình hành động Chính phủ đã đề ra, đề nghị Ban chỉ đạo T.Ư về phòng chống tham nhũng, lãng phí yêu cầu các bộ, ngành báo cáo ngay những số liệu được cập nhật trong 10 năm trở lại đây cũng như thực trạng hiện nay ra sao. Chúng ta sẽ thấy sự lãng phí tới mức nào và Ban chỉ đạo phòng chống tham nhũng cần có biện pháp thích đáng gì phù hợp để chấm dứt sự lãng phí kéo dài này, tăng thêm nguồn cho ngân quĩ quốc gia. Được vậy, dù có chậm, cũng là tấm gương cho bên dưới, cho cả nước.

VÕ VĂN KIỆ

rồi cái này
http://www.tuoitre.com.vn/Tianyon/Index.aspx?ArticleID=175620&ChannelID=3

Trụ sở văn phòng 2 của bộ, ngành:

To, rộng để làm gì?


Trụ sở Văn phòng 2 Bộ Nông nghiệp - phát triển nông thôn (phải) và Trung tâm dịch vụ thương mại (thuộc bộ này) tại 135 Pasteur, Q.3 - Ảnh: L.A.Đ.
TT - Hầu như bộ, ngành nào cũng có cơ sở 2 (tạm gọi là Văn phòng 2) nằm ở các khu đất được coi là đắc địa nhất TP.HCM. Giữa một đô thị “tấc đất, tấc vàng”, các cơ sở này tồn tại như những “tượng đài”... lãng phí.

Rộng thênh thang

Sang trọng và rộng rãi hàng đầu có lẽ là văn phòng 2 của Bộ Nông nghiệp - phát triển nông thôn (NN&PTNT) nằm ở mặt tiền số 135 Pasteur, Q.3. Toàn khuôn viên khu đất mà bộ dùng để xây trụ sở rộng khoảng 2.000m2, tạm chia làm ba phần. Trong đó, phần chính là văn phòng bộ cao bốn tầng, phần đất sát bên xây Trung tâm dịch vụ thương mại (chủ yếu là văn phòng cho thuê), phần còn lại nằm sâu bên trong là khu nhà nghỉ cho các cán bộ. Một trung tâm định giá bất động sản tại TP.HCM cho biết tại vị trí này giá đất hiện ở mức từ 7-7,5 lượng vàng/m2.

Theo quan sát của chúng tôi, ba tầng dưới của tòa nhà được bố trí các phòng làm việc và các phòng họp nhỏ, rất vắng người, còn tầng trên cùng là hội trường lớn với khoảng 170 ghế. Do không hội họp nhiều nên hội trường này thường dùng cho thuê, có trường đại học đang thuê dài hạn ở đây để đào tạo lớp thạc sĩ.

Sáng 27-11, trong vai những người đi thuê hội trường để tổ chức hội thảo, chúng tôi được người quản lý Văn phòng 2 của bộ cho biết giá thuê hội trường lớn ở đây là 2 triệu đồng/ngày, bao luôn điện nước. Chúng tôi hỏi cho thuê hội trường có xuất “hóa đơn đỏ” hay không, anh nhân viên trả lời không vì đây là cơ quan hành chính sự nghiệp.

Không hoành tráng như các trụ sở khác, nhưng văn phòng 2 của Bộ Bưu chính - viễn thông lại nằm ở hai mặt tiền đường: Nguyễn Bỉnh Khiêm - Nguyễn Thị Minh Khai, quận 1. Giới kinh doanh bất động sản đánh giá vị trí này thuộc hàng “top” trong bảng giá đất của TP, giá giao dịch hiện nay khoảng 9 lượng vàng/m2. Vì vậy, cơ quan này cũng tận dụng “vị trí vàng” để cho kinh doanh cửa hàng mắt kính, thiết bị truyền hình thuê lại.

Văn phòng 2 của Bộ Giao thông vận tải lại nằm ngay khu cao ốc (92 Nam Kỳ Khởi Nghĩa), theo ước tính giá đất lên đến 10 lượng vàng/m2. Qua một vòng khảo sát, ngoài văn phòng 2 của bộ, chúng tôi đếm có hơn 10 đơn vị khác cùng “đóng đô” tại đây, trong đó cả công ty cổ phần, công ty TNHH...

Văn phòng 2 Bộ Giáo dục - đào tạo nằm ngay vòng xoay hồ Con Rùa (phía quận 3), với hai mặt tiền là Công trường Quốc Tế và đường Võ Văn Tần. Chiều ngang khu đất gần 100m và hàng chục mét chiều sâu. Trong khuôn viên này, ngoài tòa nhà chính làm văn phòng, phần đất còn lại dùng làm nhà xe, sân nhưng vẫn còn... rộng. Phần diện tích gần 200m2 phía mặt tiền đường Võ Văn Tần dùng làm quán ăn uống. Trong vai người kinh doanh, chúng tôi đến hỏi sang quán thì chủ nhân của quán lắc đầu “vì đây là căngtin nội bộ”. Dù là căngtin nội bộ nhưng quán này vẫn trổ cửa ra đường, đón khách bất cứ giờ nào trong ngày. Ngồi tại quán nhìn vào phía sau trụ sở văn phòng thấy cảnh bỏ bê lâu năm không ai dọn, bàn ghế, cây gỗ chất ngả nghiêng.

“Đất vàng” nhưng...


Anh Minh - một người kinh doanh đất đai - nói Văn phòng 2 Bộ Công nghiệp ở 45 Trần Cao Vân (gần hồ Con Rùa) là khu vực “đẹp như mơ”, nhưng dùng để làm văn phòng đại diện của một cơ quan hành chính thì thật là tiếc. Với diện tích hơn 300m2, mới xây, cao ba tầng, trông trụ sở này nguy nga. Theo anh Minh, với diện tích đất mặt tiền như vậy, chỉ cần cho thuê đúng giá thị trường mỗi năm cũng thu hàng trăm triệu đồng. Để cho Bộ Công nghiệp làm văn phòng, do ít người ra vô, khu vực này trở nên vắng lặng.

Cũng trên địa bàn quận 3, văn phòng 2 của Bộ Kế hoạch - đầu tư nằm ở mặt tiền đường Nguyễn Đình Chiểu (gần giao lộ Lê Quí Đôn), trong một khu vườn nhiều cây xanh rộng hàng ngàn mét vuông. Trong khuôn viên này, ngoài văn phòng bộ còn có văn phòng Trung tâm Đầu tư nước ngoài phía Nam thuộc Cục Đầu tư nước ngoài và báo Đầu Tư. Theo dân kinh doanh địa ốc, lô đất này thuộc dạng “rờ phỏng tay”, với giá từ 7-8 lượng vàng/m2.

Đường Phạm Ngọc Thạch, một trong những tuyến đường nổi tiếng của TP về khu biệt thự, cũng có hai cơ quan đóng tại đây: một của Bộ Lao động - thương binh & xã hội, một của Bộ Y tế. Không xây mới như các cơ quan khác, trụ sở của hai cơ quan này trông khá cũ kỹ, nhưng theo giám đốc một công ty thẩm định bất động sản, giá mỗi mét vuông tại đây không dưới 9 lượng vàng.

Tương tự, tại văn phòng 2 Bộ Tài nguyên - môi trường ở mặt tiền đường Mạc Đĩnh Chi (Q.1) cũng rộng hàng trăm mét vuông với năm đơn vị trực thuộc bộ treo bảng đặt trụ sở. Một phần sân của trụ sở, người ta cho giữ xe của sinh viên Đại học Tôn Đức Thắng cơ sở 2. Bên trong cơ quan này còn có khu nhà tập thể.

Giới kinh doanh bất động sản ước tính giá trị mỗi khu đất trên lên đến hàng ngàn lượng vàng. Thế nhưng việc sử dụng các khu đất trên chưa thật sự mang lại hiệu quả cao. Thậm chí nhiều nơi bỏ trống, sử dụng lãng phí từ nhiều năm qua.

famster, fatcat. you are talking about yourselves. I'm not

put yourselves in Vietnamese children perspective , those whose have never been back to VN, and know nothing about Vietnam .
and tell them what you think about Vietnam, don't tell me
tell them how proud you two are of Vietnam and the communist government, don't tell me.

I'm happy that the Vietnam economy is picking up.....but you can not fool me of the things they do when the world is not watching

famster, fatcat. you are talking about yourselves. I'm not

put yourselves in Vietnamese children perspective , those whose have never been back to VN, and know nothing about Vietnam .
and tell them what you think about Vietnam, don't tell me
tell them how proud you two are of Vietnam and the communist government, don't tell me.

I'm happy that the Vietnam economy is picking up.....but you can not fool me of the things they do when the world is not watching

Oh Bang,you'll see what you want to see.That's your right of doing so.But when you look permanently and deeply about somethings,you'll always see chaos and probs.
Many people including me look in a different point of view of yours.Don't try to dig the reality out firstly because it's been dig by the media and second,you will only see sh@..t when you keep up digging.
The goverment does what they want to do to keep stability that is preferable for business as long as they did it in secrecy.But God,every gov does things behind the scenes.Could you explain to me what is called human right in Guatanamo prison affair ?Could you explan to me the practices of the CIA with secret prisons in Europe ?If you could ever convince me that are common practices with this world greatest democracy,i'll shoot the PC general secretary myself.:bash:

I'm a simple man, I don't pay attention to politics, but when someone take something from me I will remember for life.....

and the comie police took my money when I came back. SO I vow to zap about it for life, for the whole world to know

fatcat,
Uh...oh... I thought we're talking about VN!!! What gitmo has anything to do with what we're talking about the culture and politics in VN??? Changing topic won't change a thing in VN, ya know!!! Nice diversion :lol:

Ok thanks for your notice.But you know,people need to get smart for democracy.

yeah some of us need to be educated about democracy...and I will teach

yeah some of us need to be educated about democracy...and I will teach

^^ Just don't use Wikipedia for your teaching

I don't even know how to get to that website
you crazy person

I don't even know how to get to that website
you crazy person

Ok i will show you one day.Could be useful.But not today.I'm so sleepy now.It's 0:11 AM here.Good night and nice dreams

good go to sleep.......wake up next week

good go to sleep.......wake up next week

Nice lessons of democracy.Things like "shut the fu.... up and go to hell".:lol: :lol:

please go to sleep I beg of you

Bang is just mad at the vietnam government for confiscating his parent's money.. Thank god Vietnamese communist government that reduce ba tau's influence in Vietnamese economy. :banana:

bang,
now I understand the meaning when my mom dad always said after a heated argument "cải cho sướng cái cửa m*nh :nuts: " Don't you love it :lol:

PhoAve,
I ran into a VN foreign student here in the States (his family is higher up in the commie party in SG...). He revealed that he has no desire to go back to VN after his grad study if he doesn't have to. He said he couldn't use his talent to the fullest and he'd feel very uncomfortable with the political climate!!! The dichotomy is real strange to say the least. I just wonder if this guy is a black sheep in his family :nuts: or it's the norm for VN students that were exposed to western society.
black sheep actually.
a lot tend to complain that America's boring and racist.

http://diendanlequydon.com/viewtopic.php?t=19219
http://diendanlequydon.com/viewtopic.php?t=2202

black sheep actually.
a lot tend to complain that America's boring and racist.

wantuhoa,
That's interesting... I wonder if they feel bored and picked upon because of their lack of language skill or lack of family union!!! I grew up here in the States and I never felt left out or picked on because of my look or my race once! My closest friends are both white and asian.
As I grew up, one thing I noticed that we can tell much difference between the VK and Vietnamese from VN because of the communication skill. We tend to speak with a lot of slangs and idioms which probably makes some VN foreign students feel unconfortable...

wantuhoa,
That's interesting... I wonder if they feel bored and picked upon because of their lack of language skill or lack of family union!!! I grew up here in the States and I never felt left out or picked on because of my look or my race once! My closest friends are both white and asian.
As I grew up, one thing I noticed that we can tell much difference between the VK and Vietnamese from VN because of the communication skill. We tend to speak with a lot of slangs and idioms which probably makes some VN foreign students feel unconfortable...

the thing is a lot of them go to universities that far away from the vietnamese population.. or even asian population, that's why they usually face racism. They feel bored too, not used to the suburban life of America. That's why a lot of them go to Singapore because the university there is cheaper and the city is much more alive.

As I already said, if you keep telling your children about how the government there "robbed" your parents' money, how on earth do you expect your children to have any good impression about Vietnam?! The communist government of Vietnam made many, many mistakes in the past (and undoubtedly, will be making more mistakes in the future), but it is going in the RIGHT direction as proven by the economic growth the country has experienced in the past decade. Get out of poverty first, create wealth for the people next, and then we will deal with democracy. You can't talk about democracy with people who have empty stomachs because they WON'T care, period!

As for those who still hold the grudge against the government of VN, do so in your lifetime but please, do not try pass that onto the next generation by digging all the negative things (about VN and/or its government) to tell your foreign-born children. They will end up having a very bad image of the country you yourself claim to be your "homeland". You then have no one but only yourself to blame on when your children start to deny their "heritage" and become fully Americanized (US).

I think you should separate the country from the regime. The dislike of the regime does not equal to the dislike for the country of Vietnam. Whilst I'm not fond of the communist regime, I love Vietnam for what she is, a country of rich culture, a long history, hospitable people, breathtaking landscape and deeply embedded in tradition.

As I already said, if you keep telling your children about how the government there "robbed" your parents' money, how on earth do you expect your children to have any good impression about Vietnam?! The communist government of Vietnam made many, many mistakes in the past (and undoubtedly, will be making more mistakes in the future), but it is going in the RIGHT direction as proven by the economic growth the country has experienced in the past decade. Get out of poverty first, create wealth for the people next, and then we will deal with democracy. You can't talk about democracy with people who have empty stomachs because they WON'T care, period!

As for those who still hold the grudge against the government of VN, do so in your lifetime but please, do not try pass that onto the next generation by digging all the negative things (about VN and/or its government) to tell your foreign-born children. They will end up having a very bad image of the country you yourself claim to be your "homeland". You then have no one but only yourself to blame on when your children start to deny their "heritage" and become fully Americanized (US).


This might be some what "off topic" but down the road our homeland and heritage is where we were born and raised, not the past. Just look at African American or European American. Ask them where their homeland is and more then likely they will say New York or California or some other states. Homeland and heritage are only important to the first few genaration. I was born in Vietnam and raised in the US and I can still Vietnam my homeland but as for my grand kids, I don't think or care if the US is their homeland now. Just my 2 cents.

As long as you teach your kids and tell your kids to teach their descendants well, the true Vietnamese's heart will always direct towards their ancestral homeland. Look at the Jews or the Chinese, it doesn't matter where they are, their identity is mostly intact and they know who they really are and where their heart truly lies.

It is mostly a disappointment that many Overseas Vietnamese parents hurriedly wants their children to assimilate into the new society and be successful, but at the price of losing their true identity and root. Why can't these parents assist their children to be a fully fledged member of the host society but at the same time maintaining their cultural identity?

Bang is just mad at the vietnam government for confiscating his parent's money.. Thank god Vietnamese communist government that reduce ba tau's influence in Vietnamese economy. :banana:


3 tàu vẫn thua 2 lúa 1 bậc.

Ít nhất 3 tàu cũng là những người kinh doanh giỏi, và làm giàu cho miền nam và Saìgon....giữ cho kinh tế Saigòn vào loại mạnh ở đông nam á mặc dù trong chiến tranh. Biến Saigòn thành nơi mà dân tứ xứ muốn đến kiếm sống (nhờ kinh tế của 3 tàu)
Còn những anh 2 lúa thì chỉ biết sáng làm ruộng, tối giấu việt Cộng hay cầm súng với việt cộng.....còn tốt đẹp hơn thì bỏ đất ruộng vườn để về saigòn trú ẩn
những anh 2 lúa thấy saigòn bình yên trong thời chiến thì bo đồng quê lên saigòn, khi saigòn bị Việt cộng chiếm và cho sống trong địa ngục thì mấy anh 2 lúa đóng ghe vượt biên, khi cộng sàn biết làm ăn kinh tế thì lại ngồi ca tụng CS tốt đẹp
3 tàu ngoài làm kinh tế giỏi còn có lòng ái quốc, đi không thay tên ngồi không đổi họ. còn những anh 2 lúa, thì gió chiều nào mạnh lúa bay theo chiều đó....cho nên mới có những anh cả hanội nói là "dân miền nam không có lòng ái quốc"
sorry dân miền nam cũng ái quốc, như ông Phan châu Trinh ở Bạc Liêu khi bị Pháp bắt đã nói "chừng nào đất nam hết cò, mới hết người namđánh Tây" chỉ có mấy anh 2 lúa là dễ dàng đón gió trở cờ mà thôi, nên những anh cả CS, anh 2 lúa và anh 3 tàu,,,,,thì 3 Tàu thua xa, trong vấn đề phá hoại Việt Nam

As I already said, if you keep telling your children about how the government there "robbed" your parents' money, how on earth do you expect your children to have any good impression about Vietnam?! The communist government of Vietnam made many, many mistakes in the past (and undoubtedly, will be making more mistakes in the future), but it is going in the RIGHT direction as proven by the economic growth the country has experienced in the past decade. Get out of poverty first, create wealth for the people next, and then we will deal with democracy. You can't talk about democracy with people who have empty stomachs because they WON'T care, period!

As for those who still hold the grudge against the government of VN, do so in your lifetime but please, do not try pass that onto the next generation by digging all the negative things (about VN and/or its government) to tell your foreign-born children. They will end up having a very bad image of the country you yourself claim to be your "homeland". You then have no one but only yourself to blame on when your children start to deny their "heritage" and become fully Americanized (US).

just like a true communist aren't we......Vietnam the country and government = 1
sorry I will tell my children...Vietnam the country is beautiful , and the commie government is shit. plain and simple.
I just feel sorry for you to have escaped the commie government, to go overseas .....and have children,,,, and old ,,,,,,,and still think Vietnam and COmmies and the government are 1.
ask your kids if they loved America....and if they said they loved America but they hate the republican and Mr Bush......you should hit them, HARD

3 tàu vẫn thua 2 lúa 1 bậc.

Ít nhất 3 tàu cũng là những người kinh doanh giỏi, và làm giàu cho miền nam và Saìgon....giữ cho kinh tế Saigòn vào loại mạnh ở đông nam á mặc dù trong chiến tranh. Biến Saigòn thành nơi mà dân tứ xứ muốn đến kiếm sống (nhờ kinh tế của 3 tàu)
Còn những anh 2 lúa thì chỉ biết sáng làm ruộng, tối giấu việt Cộng hay cầm súng với việt cộng.....còn tốt đẹp hơn thì bỏ đất ruộng vườn để về saigòn trú ẩn
những anh 2 lúa thấy saigòn bình yên trong thời chiến thì bo đồng quê lên saigòn, khi saigòn bị Việt cộng chiếm và cho sống trong địa ngục thì mấy anh 2 lúa đóng ghe vượt biên, khi cộng sàn biết làm ăn kinh tế thì lại ngồi ca tụng CS tốt đẹp
3 tàu ngoài làm kinh tế giỏi còn có lòng ái quốc, đi không thay tên ngồi không đổi họ. còn những anh 2 lúa, thì gió chiều nào mạnh lúa bay theo chiều đó....cho nên mới có những anh cả hanội nói là "dân miền nam không có lòng ái quốc"
sorry dân miền nam cũng ái quốc, như ông Phan châu Trinh ở Bạc Liêu khi bị Pháp bắt đã nói "chừng nào đất nam hết cò, mới hết người namđánh Tây" chỉ có mấy anh 2 lúa là dễ dàng đón gió trở cờ mà thôi, nên những anh cả CS, anh 2 lúa và anh 3 tàu,,,,,thì 3 Tàu thua xa, trong vấn đề phá hoại Việt Nam
They just wanted to finish off what Nguyen Hue has done :)

just like a true communist aren't we......Vietnam the country and government = 1
sorry I will tell my children...Vietnam the country is beautiful , and the commie government is shit. plain and simple.
I just feel sorry for you to have escaped the commie government, to go overseas .....and have children,,,, and old ,,,,,,,and still think Vietnam and COmmies and the government are 1.
ask your kids if they loved America....and if they said they loved America but they hate the republican and Mr Bush......you should hit them, HARD

Like it or not but the Communist Party will remain a winner in Vietnamese history. They will be credited as handling economy badly in the beginning, but then innitiated a reform that rehabillitated Vietnam without much of Western interventions like many other Asian countries including Japan and South Korea. Like the Tay Son rebellion, I predict that the Communist government will not last forever. However, like Tay Son rebellion, it had ultimately changed Vietnam. Tay Son rebellion tried to put an end on Vietnam's FIRST Civil War and impacted hugely on social classes (as a majority of Tay Son troops ARE farmers). Whether you like it or not but Ho Chi Minh will remain a hero (to some he's one of the greatest hero in Vietnam history) even if the Communist Party is gone. A lot of people need to get caught with the situation or at least act something about it, instead of going online and bash the Vietnamese Communist Party. Sure, some people believe that the Communist and Vietnamese is one, but you're not helping any situations when you posted a load crap of anti-Communist "truth" in a forum that is supposed to concentrate more about Vietnam's infrastructure

truth hurts, bang, truth hurts!!!

it's kind of strange to hear people getting mad when we only talk about the misdeed of the regime, not the country??? I guess in a authoritarian state, only the party can disseminate critique :ohno:. The welfare and opinion of the mass is crap :nuts:

Sorry but i when i said the truth someone told me that i talk too much.But don't have any idea about that person education background,i don't like to comment.
That's why i said there were some hypocrites who want to teach me about democracy.But here is a forum where the purpose is to allow people discussing with freedom,i don't want to offend anyone but i"m free to say what i want.On the contrary,confronting some kinds of argument like "Ba Tau" is good and patriotic,i just can't afford it.

To capee:Don't mix cynicism and criticism.Don't make personal assumption and attribute it to others.
When you told about a sentence in VNese that i try to understand,and you told that sentence you learnt from your parents,and if i understand it right,THAT COULD BE CALLED HIGH EDUCATION IN THE US,right ????

I guess, sometime people need to face the reality so they can make thing better... as the same for the regime or even a country... So let hope and promoting our pride via this forum... hahaha....:dj:

Bang, I live for the "now" and the "tomorrow". I don't hang on to grudges of the past and I surely don't try to pass that crappy "heritage" (grudges, in other name) to my children. They can see Vietnam for themselves from the perspective of Americans which they are. That way, they have a fair judgement about the country, the government, and the progress of both.

"Feeling sorry" for me? Why? I am doing just fine and I have a positive attitude about life in general and Vietnam, in particular. I hold no hatred in my heart about Vietnam or its communist government. Save your sympathy for those who are so negative about Vietnam and its progress, who are full of hatred of its communist government that they have to be in every single anti-communist/Vietnam demonstration (these are the ones who are really confused about Vietnam/communist government as they demonstrate against anything to do with Vietnam be it a leader's visit or a cultural exchange program) and who are just sore losers who could not accept the defeat 31 years ago! Now, THOSE are the ones you should feel sorry for! :-)

Also, "old"?! I certainly don't feel "old". "Old" is one thing, (because everyone gets old, yourself included ;-) ) but "old and bitter" is another thing which I am not (thankgoodness!)

Capee, no one is getting mad here. Just a discussion between people of VERY different opinions, that's all.

Wantuhoa, religion and politics are 2 things most people want to stay away from because these would always lead to disagreement and conflicts. True, this is skyscraper city and we are supposed to discuss and share about Vietnam's infrastructure but of course, we human beings are known for our wandering mind... Well, look at it this way, we are all here because of the love for beautiful buildings so at least, beyond the 2 "no-no" subjects, we have that in common. AND, we are all Vietnamese (or part Vietnamese)! Maybe we should go back to the subject we agree on, shall we not?

I agree... :P

PhoAve, "agree" ve chuyen gi? Noi cho ro rang khong thoi lai co nguoi ..hieu lam, hehehe. Noi ddua thoi chu chac PhoAve dong y ve cau cuoi cung roi, ddung khong? :-)

I just had a thought, kinda funny thought: what if we get all the Vietnamese of conflicting opinions together and equip each one with paint guns. Don't you think everyone will have a very good time shooting each other (but no one is harmed or hurt) and laughing at each other while doing it? For sure, all the mad feelings about each other will be gone and at the end, EVERYONE feels good, just like kids do after their games. Let's imagine that kind of game right here in our forum. Who can resist that? :-)

...you told that sentence you learnt from your parents,and if i understand it right,THAT COULD BE CALLED HIGH EDUCATION IN THE US,right ????
fatcat,

I wouldn't call that HIGH EDUCATION :lol: . It's just part of cultural education from your parent, don't you think? I recalled at the time, I asked my mom what it meant, she told me to ask my dad... And I asked my dad, he SMACKED me and told me to get lost :ohno:

I found Viet culture is very interesting to say the least... And for this forum, I had not paid much attention to VN until someone at work showed me his travel photos in VN, and only then it started poking my interest to VN... that's all.

Well, it's time to walk out and breath the air, folks! :lock:

Ngừng tranh luận vô bổ...

Don't be a net-aholic robot ;)