noone cares about half the crap that spews out of your mouth either.

Ouch! that's cool, all i was saying is that this thread was moving in the wrong direction and that stuff should have been in the other thread. Sorry to get your panties in a knot. Can we all please kiss and make up?!

Anyways, good to hear something positive about the waterfront, I'm looking forward to what other stores and restaurants are coming to the site. Hopefully a nice hotel as well.

yeah. sorry about that.

You are really stretching it. As I noted there is nothing similar except that they both happen to be highways. Any comparison is silly. And even though the money got bigger the big dig project was always basically the same size.

Only significant difference is the scale, I've pointed out all the similarities. From less than $3 billion to $14 billion, that's a rather big "even though", now that's really stretching it to claim that just $11 billion extra (& still counting at that) is the "same size"!

There has been talk in the past about burying the Skyway (though not us at this particular moment), so the comparisons aren't beyond the realm of all reason. A stretch for sure, but the same basic premise.

I-93/Central Artery makes the Skyway look like piddly-shit. I've never actually driven it (largely for that reason) but that doesn't matter.

I think the biggest problem with the Big Dig, besides not knowing what's underground in an "ancient" (by US standards) city, was leaving the administration up to a for-profit private business. Privatization can be a good thing, I just don't like it in public works. If you want a current example, look up "Halliburton".

Imagine one of Albany's shadow government "Authorities" running a "Big Dig" in Buffalo. You know that's how it'd be run - after all it's a tried and proven solution to every governmental issue - and it works (or so somebody seems to think). Good Lord, creator of all that is good and holy, please don't ever let that happen. I'm begging.

ALRIGHT GUYS...

before we look like the retards of the forum...lets put this on a back burner and talk about Court Street, Issa or maybe HealthNow.

really, all this talk about the skyway makes me wanna jump off the fucking thing.

Only significant difference is the scale, I've pointed out all the similarities. From less than $3 billion to $14 billion, that's a rather big "even though", now that's really stretching it to claim that just $11 billion extra (& still counting at that) is the "same size"!

In what way is it even remotely similar to the skyway? ? ? Your comparison is idiotic at best. Have you ever been to Boston? You clearly don't have a clue on this.

ALRIGHT GUYS...

before we look like the retards of the forum...

Too late, we ran right off the pier.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39523000/jpg/_39523131_pier203.jpg

In what way is it even remotely similar to the skyway? ? ? Your comparison is idiotic at best. Have you ever been to Boston? You clearly don't have a clue on this.

Oh, after all I’ve discussed about the Big Dig, if you still wonder if I’ve ever been to Boston, it is you that must be completely clueless! Asking me if I’ve ever been to Boston is like me asking you if you’ve ever been to Chicago, it’s a rather silly question. I’ve driven on Boston’s Central Artery, the burying of which was the centerpiece of the Big Dig, almost as many times as I’ve driven on Buffalo’s Skyway, & I’ve driven on both many, many times, so I know the comparison almost by heart. They were/are both 1950s structures, the biggest difference is scale.

In what way is it even remotely similar to the skyway? ? ? Your comparison is idiotic at best. Have you ever been to Boston? You clearly don't have a clue on this.

And Steel is the expert about not having a clue, after all he is the poster child for the clueless.

ok ok lets end the discussion about the skyway, everyone is just going in circles. Bayviews, points well taken...yes the skyway isn't the number one issue facing buffalo, and yes if there is money available to be spent anyway we want then it could/should be used on something else, and yes the skyway needs to come down at some point in the future. Looks like everyone is just about in agreement...moving on...

Pataki holds out hope for Bass Pro
Business First of Buffalo - 6:29 AM EST Thursday by James Fink Business First

Gov. George Pataki -- in what may have been his last appearance in Western New York as governor -- said he remains hopeful that a deal can still be struck between local officials and Bass Pro Shops for its proposed downtown Buffalo store.

Pataki was in the Town of Tonawanda Wednesday to announce a conditional award of a power purchase with NRG Energy Inc. that will secure the long-term future of the Huntley Power Plant.

He said he also supports the $200 million Buffalo Inner Harbor development plan unveiled earlier this week by the Erie County Harbor Development Corp.

The harbor development corporation, an arm of the Empire State Development Corp., was created by Pataki in July 2005 to deal specifically with the Bass Pro issue and to spearhead a master plan and construction of the inner harbor and other portions of Buffalo's waterfront.

Local leaders are courting Bass Pro to open a 190,000-square-foot, $123 million superstore in the mothballed Memorial Auditorium, a project many feel is central to the inner harbor development efforts. New York state has offered $35 million in incentives to Bass Pro to help entice the sporting and hunting goods retailer to the Aud site.

The project was announced two years ago and was supposed to be open by 2007. Talks have gone through various cycles, culminating with Buffalo Mayor Byron Brown and other representatives of the harbor development corporation giving Bass Pro an ultimatum on Monday to either build the store or end the talks. Bass Pro has until Jan. 18 to respond.

"I'm still hopeful," Pataki said. "Bass Pro is a part of the overall harbor development."

Local officials say the $200 million development project can -- and will -- proceed with or without Bass Pro. Benderson Development Co. has agreed to invest $60 million to bring in other retailers, restaurants and entertainment options.

Also in the works are a hotel, a marketplace featuring smaller kiosks, and shops and townhouses.

"This is obviously an important project for Buffalo," Pataki said. "My goal, all along, was to help bring intelligent development to that corridor."

Pataki also said he hopes that state lawmakers, when they return to Albany next month, will release approximately $20 million to help the Buffalo Bills make renovations at Ralph Wilson Stadium.

Tentative plans call for moving the press box from the stadium's 50-yard line to a corner slot and using that space to build more luxury boxes and suites. Also in the works is an electronic ribbon advertising board that will ring the stadium's interior bowl.

Both are considered crucial toward helping the team generate more revenues. "I'd like to see that money allocated for the Bills," Pataki said.

Thanks for all your help President Pataki.

While I love Buffalo, and find it to be a charming city, this inner harbor madness sounds a little ... uh ... not innovative? I'm a native upstater -- that's where I was born and raied -- and I find that the State has been really slow bringing in innovative ideas and projects to your cities. A shame, cause they're great. But then again, proposals are being drafter here for a second "Inner Harbor" in Prince George's Country. Guess what it's going to be called? The National Harbor. People like the water, no doubt, but all you're doing is copying a concept that can only be duplicated so many times until it sounds like a nonentity. And you're flattering us Baltimoreans, who are known for our raging inferiority complexes.

^ well, our mayor seems to like using Baltimore in examples for everything from the harbor to Crimestats. I agree with the point about innovation...it seems that (ironically) New York State is a dead end of innovation these days, we never see anything bold and unique that gets completed. I would love it if in 1.5 weeks when the Eliot Spitzer regime takes over the state, he would propose some bold new plans to help revitalize upstate inner cities, from housing to transportation to "racism" to economic development...and I don't mean cash handouts.

Oh, after all I’ve discussed about the Big Dig, if you still wonder if I’ve ever been to Boston, it is you that must be completely clueless! Asking me if I’ve ever been to Boston is like me asking you if you’ve ever been to Chicago, it’s a rather silly question. I’ve driven on Boston’s Central Artery, the burying of which was the centerpiece of the Big Dig, almost as many times as I’ve driven on Buffalo’s Skyway, & I’ve driven on both many, many times, so I know the comparison almost by heart. They were/are both 1950s structures, the biggest difference is scale.

That is like saying the biggest difference between the sun and the moon is scale! What a stupid statement.

...As the parties head into their final weeks of negotiations, one retail analyst is cautioning local planners not to "give away the store." Burt Flickinger III, a Buffalo native who is now a New York-based national retail consultant, said there are many other retail and entertainment options that won't require an excessive subsidy.

"It would be a strategic mistake to pay too much to get Bass Pro at a time when they are reaching market saturation," Flickinger said.

The consultant said Bass Pro's rapid expansion is reducing its cachet as a unique retail destination.

"In 10 years, Bass Pro will be the Wal-Mart of the outdoor/sporting goods category. They'll be commonplace," Flickinger said.

He suggested downtown waterfront planners would be better off putting together a mix of successful retail and entertainment vendors to entice locals and out-of-town visitors.

"With all due respect, losing Bass Pro could be a blessing to the future of the Buffalo waterfront. Now that they have a broader development plan, the opportunities to mix and match tenants is extraordinary," Flickinger said.

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20061221/1068587.asp

That's intelligent commentary. He's right.

I agree 110%. Couldn't have said it better myself. :D

hi, me.

^ well, our mayor seems to like using Baltimore in examples for everything from the harbor to Crimestats. I agree with the point about innovation...it seems that (ironically) New York State is a dead end of innovation these days, we never see anything bold and unique that gets completed. I would love it if in 1.5 weeks when the Eliot Spitzer regime takes over the state, he would propose some bold new plans to help revitalize upstate inner cities, from housing to transportation to "racism" to economic development...and I don't mean cash handouts.

I totally agree, we have never had a unique idea! To think we have a friggin wonder of the world 20 minutes away, you'd think we would try to tie that in in someway. When you look at other cities tourist traps like Jacksonville's Landing, Kansas City's Plaza, San Francisco' Wharf etc. it's all unique. We are just reusing old ideas that have been used up ten-fifteen years ago from other cities that have moved on and reinvented itself. How cool would it be if we turned the cobblestone into a "plaza" style like in Kansas City? Shit like that works and people that live in those cities love it. They think of it as tradition and are proud of it. I'm sure you've heard about how Indy Love's their square. What the hell do we have?! A dead main st or the dead waterfront? I hope this "canal side" works because it is somewhat unique because its part of our history and our roots. Then for once we'll have something to brag about to other cities.

dead on right.

hi, me.
Sorry. I saw the opportunity was too good to give up so I seized it.

I totally agree, we have never had a unique idea! To think we have a friggin wonder of the world 20 minutes away, you'd think we would try to tie that in in someway. When you look at other cities tourist traps like Jacksonville's Landing, Kansas City's Plaza, San Francisco' Wharf etc. it's all unique. We are just reusing old ideas that have been used up ten-fifteen years ago from other cities that have moved on and reinvented itself. How cool would it be if we turned the cobblestone into a "plaza" style like in Kansas City? Shit like that works and people that live in those cities love it. They think of it as tradition and are proud of it. I'm sure you've heard about how Indy Love's their square. What the hell do we have?! A dead main st or the dead waterfront? I hope this "canal side" works because it is somewhat unique because its part of our history and our roots. Then for once we'll have something to brag about to other cities.

I've had a chance to check out KC's country club plaza and the whole shopping district in the cobblestone area...boy that would be something if we could get the Cobblestone district up and running (instead of a test track for crotch rockets).

Sorry. I saw the opportunity was too good to give up so I seized it.

It's funny, if you remember, a few months ago during the Bass Pro debate, I said it wasn't unique and we didn't need a fishing store downtown, but I was rerided by the Buffalo clan for not supporting development in the city.

Funny how now everyone has jumped ship.

I was never really for it. In the sense of getting something started down there, yeah. But not for a second did I (nor do I now) believe all the hype around it. Especially Pataxmi's boasts about all the millions of tourists who are going to, despite the chain's rapid expansion and semi-local stores, flock to Buffalo's, just because.

Funny how now everyone has jumped ship.

actually I haven't seen anyone jump ship...people's previous position (and still the same) is that it would be a good addition to the inner harbor and that it fits in to what we're trying to do down there, however if Bass Pro doesn't want to come...oh well, we'll just get something else in there. Its as simple as that...you the whole time kept claiming it was stupid to want an outdoor life's store on our waterfront. You may have been right in the end, but for the wrong reasons.

I also claimed that it would never pull in the numbers that Pataki and the others predicted -- similar to what Mr. Tooth is saying above.

That is like saying the biggest difference between the sun and the moon is scale! What a stupid statement.

Well, I guess you're now going to claim that there isn't a huge differeance in scale between the sun & the moon! You really need to start posting less opinions & if you have any, facts, to support your claims.

Well, I guess you're now going to claim that there isn't a huge differeance in scale between the sun & the moon! You really need to start posting less opinions & if you have any, facts, to support your claims.

No it is you claiming that the moon and the sun are the same.

Speaking of waterfronts....

http://img327.imageshack.us/img327/339/wplace10xo3.jpg

More images here:

http://www.buffalorising.com/city/archives/2006/12/the_place_on_the_waterfro.php

sandcastle!!! :D

I think its kinda cool, something like that would never be built in the area so i like it. its definitely southern Floridian style though, nice for a change. How tall is it?

10 pails high:

http://www.sandcastle-i.com/images/shop/bucket.jpg

I'm going to go out on a limb and say ~150 feet.

Tough reading those numbers!

Sabre- good call. The .pdf says 151' to top of roof slab/mechanical roof (top line in image)- then another 10' or so above that

A prominent downtown Buffalo office building, located just a block away from Buffalo City Hall, has been sold.

The former Firstmark Building, at 135 Delaware, has been sold by local developer Brian Schectman to area real estate investor Anthony Trusso. Trusso paid $3.7 million for the 66,000-square-foot building, according to public records

http://buffalo.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2006/12/18/daily38.html?surround=lfn

One of downtown Buffalo's newest residential projects has cleared another milestone.

The Buffalo Urban Renewal Agency approved a $2 million low-interest loan that will help finance the development of the Warehouse Lofts project. The loan package was approved during the agency's meeting Thursday
The Warehouse Lofts, being developed by local architect Jake Schneider, will bring 30 apartments plus another 8,000-square-feet of office space to a circa 1913, seven-story, 52,000-square-foot building at 210 Ellicott St. The project carries a $7.6 million price.

http://buffalo.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2006/12/18/daily37.html?surround=lfn

A prominent downtown Buffalo office building, located just a block away from Buffalo City Hall, has been sold.

The former Firstmark Building, at 135 Delaware, has been sold by local developer Brian Schectman to area real estate investor Anthony Trusso. Trusso paid $3.7 million for the 66,000-square-foot building, according to public records

http://buffalo.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2006/12/18/daily38.html?surround=lfn

My gf works in that building. Wonder if the new owner will crack down on her boss' smoking (he just keeps paying the fines).

Well, I guess you're now going to claim that there isn't a huge differeance in scale between the sun & the moon!
Technically, as viewed from Earth, they are of the same apparent diameter. :D

Only difference being about 92,750,000 miles, one produces light and is a giant ball of gas while the other reflects light and is a chunk of rock. Slight difference in surface temperature, just a tad though.

It's funny, if you remember, a few months ago during the Bass Pro debate, I said it wasn't unique and we didn't need a fishing store downtown, but I was rerided by the Buffalo clan for not supporting development in the city.

Funny how now everyone has jumped ship.

You & me both, I took plenty of heat here for questioning the benefits of Bass Pro. Really all I did was check the places where Bass Pro was locating & they were not locating in the downtowns of first or even second-rate cities. Rather they were baiting the Kalamazoos, Tupelos, & Des Moines of the world on promises of tackling “world-class” destination status. And in many cases, they were playing baiting & switching games with the unsophisticated small town development officials, pitting small cities against each other. Even in the few large metros where they were locating they were in the outer suburbs far from downtown. Hard to imagine, NYC, Chicago, Boston, San Francisco, or Seattle even allowing one of these Bass Pros to locate anywhere near downtown. Now a real aquarium, where kids & families could watch real fish & marine life swimming in their own environment, that’s a different story, those have been successful along the waterfronts of many major cities. Fine if a Bass Pro comes to WNY. But put in a smaller place like Hamburg or Batavia where the market for these exists.

^ the idea is that it would be an anchor retail store for that area and bringing people downtown year round and would fit in with the surroundings of the new "canal side" waterfront district. From an urban planning/design/economic engine/critical mass view point it was a very good development, the problem comes in when you consider how much public money (that Buffalo wouldn't otherwise get anyways) went into it. And don't forget it wasn't just a Bass Pro store...it was a hotel, new train station hub, and erie canal museum.

But put in a smaller place like Hamburg or Batavia where the market for these exists.

Move the toll barrier out past Exit 57, remove that massive WASTE of space of an interchange, and put it right across the street from the Meyer's RV Superstore. Only thing missing would be a Tractor Supply Co (which someone in the metro is getting, and I think it may very well be Hamburg), an expansion of Statesville, NC's "J.R." Emporium of everything White Trash, and you have it all! Redneck City USA!!

Man, I've lived in Hamburg most of my life and I've never thought of it as a "hick town" before. Ewwww. Those impressions were usually saved for Boston and Springville (where it sometimes does feel as if you've stepped into "Hooterville").

Move the toll barrier out past Exit 57, remove that massive WASTE of space of an interchange, and put it right across the street from the Meyer's RV Superstore. Only thing missing would be a Tractor Supply Co (which someone in the metro is getting, and I think it may very well be Hamburg), an expansion of Statesville, NC's "J.R." Emporium of everything White Trash, and you have it all! Redneck City USA!!

Man, I've lived in Hamburg most of my life and I've never thought of it as a "hick town" before. Ewwww. Those impressions were usually saved for Boston and Springville (where it sometimes does feel as if you've stepped into "Hooterville").

I grew up in Hamburg too....hickville was Lakeview, and Blasdell and Woodlawn where looked down upon. Still are most likely.

Still is/are. That stigma is going to take years even of growth to reverse, I think. Same with Lackawanna.

Not to familiar with the southwestern part, I remember it used to be "the sticks" growing up, but I do know it has grown up quite a bit since then.

Anyone realize that neither Jerome nor Donbuy have done their typical "lets compare the Buffalo and Rochester employment stats for the month". They came out today.

Move the toll barrier out past Exit 57, remove that massive WASTE of space of an interchange, and put it right across the street from the Meyer's RV Superstore. Only thing missing would be a Tractor Supply Co (which someone in the metro is getting, and I think it may very well be Hamburg), an expansion of Statesville, NC's "J.R." Emporium of everything White Trash, and you have it all! Redneck City USA!!

Man, I've lived in Hamburg most of my life and I've never thought of it as a "hick town" before. Ewwww. Those impressions were usually saved for Boston and Springville (where it sometimes does feel as if you've stepped into "Hooterville").

Just remember I didn't call Hamburg any of those things! But yeah, Hamburg is definately a better place for a Bass Pro, if it ever locates in the area. Right near the lakeshore.

Anyone realize that neither Jerome nor Donbuy have done their typical "lets compare the Buffalo and Rochester employment stats for the month". They came out today.

well let someone else post them...but change the numbers and we'll argue over that
:)

Just remember I didn't call Hamburg any of those things! But yeah, Hamburg is definately a better place for a Bass Pro, if it ever locates in the area. Right near the lakeshore.
Not saying you did. :)

Heck, I wouldn't be opposed to it as part of redevelopment in the Woodlawn/Lackawanna area. Just not downtown, that space is too "prime" for what essentially amounts to a big box, I don't care which chain, whether national or local. Just my opinion.

Did anyone catch that Channel 4 special Tuesday night? They said they were going to show some plan for future redevelopment in the Bethlehem Steel site, I'm assuming it was current and not that stupid arch thing or something. I was too busy watching the Sabres lay an egg. Priorities.

Speaking of Bethlehem Steel, there was a new "stump" on the site that I saw from Rte. 5 today. I think the windmills are finally going up.

Hamburg: I never thought it was hicksville, but it always seems a bit more "kountry" than Buffalo's other first and second ring suburbs. Outside of Orchard Park and East Aurora, there's a definite Southtowns-type of mentality that's much different than the Northtowns mindset. My family is mostly Northtowners, and the few relatives south of the Buffalo River are more huntin'-fishin'-workin'-on-cars type folks than others in the family. My Southtowner friends also seem more "rugged" than those in the city or Amherst; they drive trucks, hunt, love places like Johnson's Country Store, and so on; they're not rednecks, but even when they're in a subdivision they seem to live a more rural-oriented lifestyle.

Driving down US 20, there's a high concentration of mini-storage warehouses, auto body shops, auto mechanics and similar uses; things planners sometimes call "redneck retail." Camp Road is also nothing to write home about.

Hamburg: I never thought it was hicksville, but it always seems a bit more "kountry" than Buffalo's other first and second ring suburbs. Outside of Orchard Park and East Aurora, there's a definite Southtowns-type of mentality that's much different than the Northtowns mindset. My family is mostly Northtowners, and the few relatives south of the Buffalo River are more huntin'-fishin'-workin'-on-cars type folks than others in the family. My Southtowner friends also seem more "rugged" than those in the city or Amherst; they drive trucks, hunt, love places like Johnson's Country Store, and so on; they're not rednecks, but even when they're in a subdivision they seem to live a more rural-oriented lifestyle.

Driving down US 20, there's a high concentration of mini-storage warehouses, auto body shops, auto mechanics and similar uses; things planners sometimes call "redneck retail." Camp Road is also nothing to write home about.

Have you seen the area around McKinley Mall??? Does Hamburg have ANY landscape guidelines? There aren't even 'lollipop' trees around, 20 years after the mall opened. Pathetic.

Hamburg has never known how to plan, I'd say they're rather infamous. Main St in the village is nice though, I'd say just behind your Williamsvilles and East Auroras.

Probably one of the other most glaring things, IMO, was approving the McKinley Mall far two stories and then slashing the top floor off during construction. DT commented on the lack of two-story malls; well we would have 2 and this one would have been the first. Granted only by a few years, 1985. It's designed and built to have two, however, so theoretically...

I don't have the same impressions of Hamburg outside of typical suburbia. Just instead of cookie-cutter lots it was an uncurbed secondary town road, ditches and a big backyard. My family is anything but rednecks, if anything they tend to align more "white collar" than anything, though I would hesitate to call them that.

Hamburg: I never thought it was hicksville, but it always seems a bit more "kountry" than Buffalo's other first and second ring suburbs. Outside of Orchard Park and East Aurora, there's a definite Southtowns-type of mentality that's much different than the Northtowns mindset. My family is mostly Northtowners, and the few relatives south of the Buffalo River are more huntin'-fishin'-workin'-on-cars type folks than others in the family. My Southtowner friends also seem more "rugged" than those in the city or Amherst; they drive trucks, hunt, love places like Johnson's Country Store, and so on; they're not rednecks, but even when they're in a subdivision they seem to live a more rural-oriented lifestyle.

Driving down US 20, there's a high concentration of mini-storage warehouses, auto body shops, auto mechanics and similar uses; things planners sometimes call "redneck retail." Camp Road is also nothing to write home about.

I've noticed this too. Southtowners seem to pride themselves on living in more sparsely developed environment than "busier" suburbs like Amherst, Tonawanda, and Cheektowaga, which have little-to-no natural beauty left. Driving around Hamburg, OP, and other towns down there, it feels a lot more porous, a lot of pockets of wilderness and open space left over.

This would definitely lead to a more rustic feeling. The Southtowns lifestyle seems to embrace a lot of country-esque features.

On a more serious note concerning Hamburg’s demographics, it’s even less diverse than Cheektowaga. Very few African Americans or Asians. And as far as Latino immigrants, they’re not even allowed into Hamburg to clean up the mess at “America’s Fair”!

Buffalo News (New York)
August 11, 2006 Friday
FIRST EDITION

41 workers at fair detained as illegals

By Anthony Cardinale - NEWS STAFF REPORTER

Forty-one men and women hired to clean up at the America's Fair in Hamburg were detained Thursday as illegal immigrants.

Thomas DiSimone, acting special agent in charge of the federal Immigration & Customs Enforcement office in Buffalo, said a tip led his agents to round up 23 men and 18 women who were working for a cleaning company that was a subcontractor at the fair.

The workers were from Mexico, Guatemala, Peru and Honduras, he said. No criminal charges have been filed against the company, Extreme Clean Inc., according to authorities.

"I don't know a lot about the workers," said Matt Peach, event manager for Extreme Clean. "We hired them through a temp company, Skyworks."

Peach said the workers, who had been hired to clean up trash during the fair, had not been on the job very long when agents arrived between 6 and 7 a.m.

So..... it's bad that the town of Hamburg doesn't allow illegal aliens to work there? Isn't that, gee I don't know, obeying the law?

And as far as Latino immigrants, they’re not even allowed into Hamburg to clean up the mess at “America’s Fair”!
They're not immigrants. They're illegal aliens. I'm sure Hamburg is perfectly happy with real immigrants

Seems to me that immigrants aren't going to migrate to a bedroom community, which Hamburg is probably more so than any other Buffalo suburb; excepting the Ford plant, really. That and they're generally not going to be able to afford that lifestyle; if they were able to they were probably living like kings where they came from.

I don't see the benefit of being overrun by illegals anyways. Sure, bring on the legals; and reform the system so as to allow the legals to proceed through the process faster than an illegal will receive asylum or amnesty. It's the law, and it's right.

Besides, how did this become a diversity issue? I'm sure the most "redneckish" areas in the country, as Hamburg is relative to the inner Buffalo metro, probably are the least diverse areas. So it only makes sense. Just be glad we're not so un-diverse that we're all inbred and chasing all "them foreign types" out with shotguns!

So..... it's bad that the town of Hamburg doesn't allow illegal aliens to work there? Isn't that, gee I don't know, obeying the law?

Oh, I’m just pointing out the inconsistency of immigration policies. Around Buffalo there’s an anti-immigration policy that has led to decline, while in most other areas, there’s a pro immigration policy that has led to growth. If it weren’t for all the new immigrants in NYC, including a half million or so illegal ones, NY State would be losing population. Many employers are leaving “walled off” WNY (not as bad in Rochester, away from the immigration police, as around Buffalo) for places like the Triangle where they can access immigrant workers. There are plenty of immigrants including many tens of thousands of undocumented ones in the Triangle, but not many immigration raids!

As much as I'd like to see it happen, I really don't think the Buffalo City Tower will be built after doing some independent research :(

why???

I can't say.

I can't say.
Then why post at all, if you can't say...

...but I give you credit for at least posting development related news in the DEVELOPMENT thread. This "illegal immigrants are above the law" crap should be in the other thread.

because... it's a secret. Two Buffalo forumers know but they can't say either.

if you did independent research like you said, then you should be able to just say it.

Unless you're independent research is just that somebody told you...

Oh, I’m just pointing out the inconsistency of immigration policies. Around Buffalo there’s an anti-immigration policy that has led to decline, while in most other areas, there’s a pro immigration policy that has led to growth. If it weren’t for all the new immigrants in NYC, including a half million or so illegal ones, NY State would be losing population. Many employers are leaving “walled off” WNY (not as bad in Rochester, away from the immigration police, as around Buffalo) for places like the Triangle where they can access immigrant workers. There are plenty of immigrants including many tens of thousands of undocumented ones in the Triangle, but not many immigration raids!

That is wrong as you often are, the Buffalo area has the same anti-illegal alien policy as anywhere else in the USA...and the Buffalo area is as open to legal immigrants as any other place as well. I'm still waiting for your justification (after asking a half dozen times and sending you a pm) of an uncontrolled border policy for illegals. And I'm sure you've heard this a million times, but the issue obviously has nothing to do with immigration, it has to do with illegal aliens working for near slave wages. Obviously an anti-illegal alien policy and "racism" has not led to Buffalo's decline...a shift away from manufacturing, high taxes, and New York State policies have led to Buffalo's decline. Its just funny how you live in your own little bubble out in San Francisco and have never set foot in Buffalo...then completely manipulate data to fit your " 'racism' fits all" explanation for every city's urban decline.

As much as I'd like to see it happen, I really don't think the Buffalo City Tower will be built after doing some independent research :(


Research in the bathroom or where?

What is Buffalo City Tower?

I just can't say in a text based environment. Sorry guys.

DT is not kidding, he does possess an interesting (almost comical) bit of information.

^^ It's going to be built in Cheektowaga instead? Right in the approach path of the airport?!?!?! You have to be kidding.

I'm going on a pre-Sabres game tour of Cheektowaga subdivisions tomorrow. One of the lawyers at the practice my gf works at says on her street it's like daylight even at night. These I have to see. lol Just follow the glow in the northern sky!

For Christmas lighting adventures, try driving down Towers, Whitney Place, and Parktrail Lane.

Scary.

And guys, I am being totally serious. I'm not joking.

he's not joking, but he's speculating and making some assumptions

She lives on Whitney, and I was going to take Towers to get there. Cool!

Screw "Wright Stuff", this is cultural tourism at it's finest.

OMG, Whitney is the WORST. I live a few streets over from there. THat street is why I contested that this area overdid it with Christmas decor. lol


You want to give me a call for your own very Cheektowaga Christmas tour?

That may be a consideration at some time in the future. I have a question, though. Cheektowaga (less Depew) is split up into roughly 4 main residential areas (IMO). You've got:


The Pine Lawn/Maryvale area centered around the 33 expressway which is fairly contiguous with Buffalo (Olde Cheektowaga?),
The "Female Heights" area south of the airport and east of Galleria (centered around a street called "Dick" - sorry, I just thought of that - maybe it was George Urban's which attracted the horde?),
Sloan, and
The newer (?) area in the southeastern part of town which we're talking about, south of Losson.


Which is the "worst", what are the highlights of each? Seems Cyb might be able to chime in as well.

Before I moved back, I actually looked at apartments in that area, including Edgebrook, a complex in Lancaster just off Transit Road (which was quite nice - Park Lane I think?) and Slate Creek (which I never actually saw). My intent was to live closer to work; up until moving I think I drove to work maybe 4 times in the prior two years. We see how well that worked out.

P.S. This isn't development news, is it. Damn. :) Well, maybe it is. Maybe some bored out-of-towner will see these posts and think like I did, "Damn, I gotta see this". Those people are out there.

Motion to create a "Cheektowaga Tackiness Thread"?

Another thing that I've thought of before - there's a town in New Hampshire called Henniker. They pride themselves on being "the only Henniker on Earth" and as far as I know it's true. Is Cheektowaga "the only Cheektowaga on Earth"? I mean literally, God only knows ours cannot possibly be duplicated.

he's speculating and making some assumptions
OMG. You Liar! DT never makes assumptions!! :hilarious

^ Just for some clarity, I was talking about the Tower thing not the Christmas lights.

There is a 50 - 50 chance that it will or wont get built. We will just have to play the waiting game.

There is a 50 - 50 chance that it will or wont get built. We will just have to play the waiting game.
Well, I think we all looked at it that way from the beginning. It was never a solid guarentee.

I hope that he will still build a tall building to add to the skyline, even if it's not the tallest in Buffalo. Or a couple shorter buildings with good infill would be excellent too.

Any updates on the Statler renovations?

Any updates on these projects too:
- AM&As
- ECC Downtown Campus project
- Federal Courthouse

I drove by the casino site last night...they have the whole nine acre lot ground up...looks like they will soon start building the foundation and sub-basement.

Oh, I’m just pointing out the inconsistency of immigration policies. Around Buffalo there’s an anti-immigration policy that has led to decline, while in most other areas, there’s a pro immigration policy that has led to growth. If it weren’t for all the new immigrants in NYC, including a half million or so illegal ones, NY State would be losing population. Many employers are leaving “walled off” WNY (not as bad in Rochester, away from the immigration police, as around Buffalo) for places like the Triangle where they can access immigrant workers. There are plenty of immigrants including many tens of thousands of undocumented ones in the Triangle, but not many immigration raids!

You're right, there are a lot of immigrants, both legal and illegal, here in the triangle. And they are costing the already underfunded and overcrowded school system huge amounts of money every year to fund ESL classes, give free or reduced price lunch, and pay for the school supplies which many of their parents either can't or don't get themeslves. They are definitely hard workers and the mega-boom of construction in this area wouldn't be happening without them...... but there is definitely a cost of being an "immigrant magnet" like the triangle.

Have you seen the area around McKinley Mall??? Does Hamburg have ANY landscape guidelines? .

Have you seen the area around the Broadway Market??? Does Buffalo have ANY aesthetic guidelines? Pathetic!

DT is not kidding, he does possess an interesting (almost comical) bit of information.

I don't know if it's comical or not, but I did hear that Realty USA has given up on the idea of attracting Toronto or NYC companies to locate offices in Buffalo. I heard that they were sort of laughed at a couple of times by targeted prospects.

Have you seen the area around the Broadway Market??? Does Buffalo have ANY aesthetic guidelines? Pathetic!

Great example. You got me!

Motion to create a "Cheektowaga Tackiness Thread"?
Seconded der, gutdemmet.

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7089/1cheektowaga474uw2.jpg

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/230/1cheektowaga413nu6.jpg

Have a colt one der.

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7615/gennyretroqr2.jpg

I don't know if it's comical or not, but I did hear that Realty USA has given up on the idea of attracting Toronto or NYC companies to locate offices in Buffalo. I heard that they were sort of laughed at a couple of times by targeted prospects.

I bet that made you feel good inside. Every week you are sounding more and more like you're now a part of the WNY faction here on SSC that thinks that due to Buffalo's inherent disadvantage being located in NYS, we should just give up and not try to get private investment and jobs here. I could never imagine a scenario in which i would be resigned to such defeatism.

Well, i know Hunt Realty is working on pre-leasing the Issa Tower, the real estate agent I'm working with on buying a home here is currently looking into the Issa condos for me. So hopefully this week I'll have some more information.

I don't know if it's comical or not, but I did hear that Realty USA has given up on the idea of attracting Toronto or NYC companies to locate offices in Buffalo. I heard that they were sort of laughed at a couple of times by targeted prospects.

Buffalo has to establish itself and break those old stereotypes before we are going to get a bunch of Toronto and NYC investment...though there is some it will be much easier once Buffalo has a much more improved image.

They might laugh now, fine...but who is to say they will laugh in 5 or 10 years?

I'm just saying...give it time.

Apple Computer laughed at Bill Gates and Windows...look what happened.

good point

The big three laughed at Preston Tucker and his revolutionary 1948 Tucker Torpedo with advanced safety features and gadgetry and look what happened. He went out of business after producing 51 cars and was brought up on charges of fraud :D

^ not sure what in the world you are talking about...but it sounds like you could interchange the word "1981 Delorean" with "1948 Tucker Torpedo"

Apple Computer laughed at Bill Gates and Windows...look what happened.


Actually it is the other way around and look what happened...Zune anyone?

Zune are nicer than Ipods...Hell Phillips make a better mp3 player than apple now.

Origionally Mac/Apple laughed at Microsoft Windows and Gates...then IBM types took on the idea and the OS went nuts...Mac OS and Apple are shit now IMO

That may be a consideration at some time in the future. I have a question, though. Cheektowaga (less Depew) is split up into roughly 4 main residential areas (IMO). You've got:


The Pine Lawn/Maryvale area centered around the 33 expressway which is fairly contiguous with Buffalo (Olde Cheektowaga?),
The "Female Heights" area south of the airport and east of Galleria (centered around a street called "Dick" - sorry, I just thought of that - maybe it was George Urban's which attracted the horde?),
Sloan, and
The newer (?) area in the southeastern part of town which we're talking about, south of Losson.


Which is the "worst", what are the highlights of each? Seems Cyb might be able to chime in as well.

Geographically, Cheektowaga is a very fragmented community, split up by railroad lines, railyards, high-tension power line easements, and more recently, expressways. It NEVER had a central core, a place that could be called a town center or downtown. There were never any quaint, traditional Williamsville/East Aurora style villages in the town. The location of Town Hall on Broadway is surrounded by rail yards and heavy industry. There is no "there" there.

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8109/clu15710sl8.png

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/7086/cheektovegascg4.jpg

I've heard native Cheektowagans try to describe neighborhoods either by volunteer fire department service areas ("I live in U-Crest der") or by church parishes ("I live in Saint Josaphat's der.") I wish I had time to describe all the various Cheektowaga neighborhoods.

Zune are nicer than Ipods...Hell Phillips make a better mp3 player than apple now.

Origionally Mac/Apple laughed at Microsoft Windows and Gates...then IBM types took on the idea and the OS went nuts...Mac OS and Apple are shit now IMO

You also thought Bush was a good idea :)

still do

wait are you saying that Gore (that odd creature) or Kerry (PTSD stright-jacket material Shell Shock big mouth) would be better options?

really, do you think either one of the other options would have made us safer? perhaps continued clintonism (pacified deplomacy) or Kerry Dumb (liberal idiocity) would lead to less US troops dead and a stronger dollar?

gimme a break.

admit you don't LIKE Bush...I understand, but the only other option was one of these two other guys...neither would have a spine and neither would do ANYTHING about terror.

:lol: liberals...Merry Xmas

^ haha "still do"...the only people left in America that "still do" are the people that think that Adam and Eve rode to church on dinosaurs and that Jesus traveled around the world burying fake dinosaur bones.

Your boy Bush still hasn't done anything with the War on Terror...refuses to protect the ports, look for Bin Laden, or implement any of the 9/11 commission recommendations. If it was Kerry or Gore...Bin Laden would be hanging from a rope now, there would be atleast one armed soldier watching each nuclear plant, and we wouldn't be bogged down for the next 30 years in Iraq watching our brave young men and women get slaughtered. They woulda made us a hell of a lot safer, rather than Bush making us a hell of a lot less safe. But thats ok President Bush doesn't know any of our soldiers, no one in his family has to go get slaughtered in Iraq. Good luck in '08 with George Pataki being the GOPs strongest candidate. GWB has almost irreperably damaged the GOP, which is why virtually everyone in the GOP has jumped ship (except for you and the Falwells) :wave: Merry Christmas BuffCity :)

back to (somewhat) development...went by Channel 2 last night, they finally have the barbed wire fence down and the new more architecurely friendly fence up. Tho, imo it still doesn't make that big of a difference because their parking lot almost takes up a half of a downtown block.

^ haha "still do"...the only people left in America that "still do" are the people that think that Adam and Eve rode to church on dinosaurs and that Jesus traveled around the world burying fake dinosaur bones.

Your boy Bush still hasn't done anything with the War on Terror...refuses to protect the ports, look for Bin Laden, or implement any of the 9/11 commission recommendations. If it was Kerry or Gore...Bin Laden would be hanging from a rope now, there would be atleast one armed soldier watching each nuclear plant, and we wouldn't be bogged down for the next 30 years in Iraq watching our brave young men and women get slaughtered. They woulda made us a hell of a lot safer, rather than Bush making us a hell of a lot less safe. But thats ok President Bush doesn't know any of our soldiers, no one in his family has to go get slaughtered in Iraq. Good luck in '08 with George Pataki being the GOPs strongest candidate. GWB has almost irreperably damaged the GOP, which is why virtually everyone in the GOP has jumped ship (except for you and the Falwells) :wave: Merry Christmas BuffCity :)

^^ Fighting words!
Something tells me BJF is a democrat? And I think it's safe to say that Buff is part of the 1/3 of Americans who think Bush is doing a heckuva job. Call me perceptive. :lol:

im a republican but I dont like Bush

Downtown's cache lures new residents
Business First of Buffalo - December 22, 2006

Joseph and Ann Michael relocated from North Buffalo to downtown's Belasario Apartments.

The Michaels weren't sure their experiment would work.

But, it did - and then some.

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/6544/661874000ar9.jpg

The Michaels - Joseph and Ann - sold their home of 32 years on Woodbridge Avenue in North Buffalo and moved into the Belesario, one of downtown Buffalo's new residential complexes.

Why downtown?

Why not, the Michaels say.

"Joe and I always loved the city, we just thought it would be fun to do," said Ann Michael, a retired English teacher. "We always felt that Buffalo needs a strong downtown and we decided to do our part by voting with our feet and moving here."

The Michaels have an eighth floor apartment in the Belesario - the former L.L. Berger's department store that Ellicott Development Co. converted into 30 apartments along with some office and retail space.

Their apartment offers a picturesque view of downtown Buffalo and the city's East Side. The apartment has all the finishes that one would expect in a trendy Soho unit - exposed piping, brick walls and deep hardwood floors.

"We have friends who come in here and can't believe this is Buffalo, or this is in downtown Buffalo," Joseph Michael said. Michael is the chief operating officer of the Dental Pay Plus in Amherst. "The 'Wow' factor is almost universal."

Living in the Belesario, as the Michaels have since the summer of 2005, allows the couple to walk down the street to places like Shea's Performing Arts Center or catch the Metro Rail en route to a Buffalo Sabres game.

It also gives them a bird's eye view of Roosevelt Square and the Electric Tower for the annual New Year's Eve balldrop and fireworks display.

"We have some out-of-town friends who walk in here and when we tell them what we pay in rent, they turn around say 'Do you know what you'd pay in New York City for this'?," Ann Michael said.

The Michaels are not alone.

After years of planning and a few false starts, downtown Buffalo has evolved into a chic residential address. Since 2002, more than 400 apartments and lofts have opened within the central business district. Collectively, the apartments are running at a 92 percent occupancy rate.

Because of the apartments, more than 1,000 people have moved into the central business district during the past four years. To put in perspective, a typical suburban subdivision may built out 100 homes during a four-year period and those homes may bring in 300 people.

Not only that, but the Sidway Apartments recently sold to Woodlark Capital LLC, a New York-based investment group for $7.85 million, or roughly $100,000 per unit.

Woodlark officials said the Sidway was attractive for a number of reasons including its 98.5 percent occupancy rate and proximity to the Buffalo Niagara Medical Campus and corporate headquarters for such companies as M&T Bank and HSBC Bank.

"The circumstantial evidence is pretty strong," said businessman and downtown leader Howard Zemsky.

The downtown development boom is far from over.

Prominent private sector business leaders like Ben Obletz from First Amherst Development Corp. and architect Jake Schneider are working on plans for new downtown residential units.

Carl Paladino, owner of Ellicott Development Co., will be starting construction on a townhouse/condo project in Buffalo's Waterfront Village in the coming months.

"What's driving all these deals? It's the demand," said Michael Schmand, Buffalo Place Inc. executive director.

Downtown's evolution as a residential hub is one that grew during the past two decades, beginning with the development of Waterfront Village and its mix of upscale townhouses, apartments and lofts.

From the edges of Lake Erie and the Niagara River, developers began looking inland and downtown was the obvious choice.

Planners looked at other cities, from Seattle and Portland to peer second tier urban areas like Milwaukee, and saw older - and often times dormant - buildings sitting there just waiting for a development risk taker to come along.

A study by a team of visiting architects and urban planners predicted the downtown Buffalo could have an annual residential absorption rate of 100 units per year.

Last year, Zimmerman Volk Associates, a nationally-recognized urban planning team, took a hard look at the downtown Buffalo residential market. Their study concluded the downtown absorption rate was closer to 375 units per year, but instead of apartments, it suggested the time was ripe to shift towards condos.

Condos create more stability and give downtown residents a stronger sense of ownership. Downtown becomes their neighborhood and their home.

"The (condo) numbers work now," said Keith Belanger, M&T Bank senior vice president and Buffalo Place Inc. chairman.

Belanger, five years ago, moved from Orchard Park to a downtown waterfront condo.

"If you are asking me has downtown turned the corner, the answer is yes," Belanger said. "We keep hearing there is a lot of people out there who want to move into Buffalo, but can't find the right product. That tells me something."

^^ Fighting words!
Something tells me BJF is a democrat? And I think it's safe to say that Buff is part of the 1/3 of Americans who think Bush is doing a heckuva job. Call me perceptive. :lol:

you're damn right they're fighting words. I just can't stand that attacks on the patriotism of citizens who disagree with certain aspects of the war on terror and the war in iraq, especially when the attacks are prescripted and don't make any sense...nothing else in political dialogue bothers me. Anyways, this is my last political post about the war in a the buffalo development thread.

Last year, Zimmerman Volk Associates, a nationally-recognized urban planning team, took a hard look at the downtown Buffalo residential market. Their study concluded the downtown absorption rate was closer to 375 units per year, but instead of apartments, it suggested the time was ripe to shift towards condos.

Condos create more stability and give downtown residents a stronger sense of ownership. Downtown becomes their neighborhood and their home.

"The (condo) numbers work now," said Keith Belanger, M&T Bank senior vice president and Buffalo Place Inc. chairman.

Belanger, five years ago, moved from Orchard Park to a downtown waterfront condo.

"If you are asking me has downtown turned the corner, the answer is yes," Belanger said. "We keep hearing there is a lot of people out there who want to move into Buffalo, but can't find the right product. That tells me something."


That is where I'm at right now...I want to live in the city, particularly near downtown...but I'm just waiting for the right product and price. Something that somewhat boggles my mind is that (other than St Mary's Square) all the condos in the City of Buffalo cost $200k+, with most being $400k+ in price. However, in other cities i.e. Pittsburgh and even B-ham...there are a decent amount of condos in the $100-$200k range which is a price range that the vast majority of condo seekers can afford. IMO that is a crazy irony for this city.

bjfan, I know its tough knowing that your party has not held the top seat in years, I know I'm not going to get a bunch of forumers to back me up and say I'm right...but if you think I don't know I'm in a very liberal forum with some very progressive folks then I'm sorry.

What really cracks me up is that Clinton had the chance to act on behalf of the liberal dems and "hang bin laden from a rope" yet he let him slip by numerous times...that has been confirmed over and over...Yemen (USS Cole) Kobar (Saudi) and Sudan as well all happened under Clinton's watch...yet he did NOTHING. Why would I go on to think that Gore or Kerry would do much different? The fact is Aaron, your party is good at saying things like "well we shoulda done that", and "we coulda done it this way"...."if you woulda elected us, it would be so much better"...yet they still to this day don't get it...never will and never I dunno if they ever want to.

Churchill was dogged over and over he was so unpopular at one point in his political career that he nearly quit all together and exiled himself...Churchill was a brilliant man, he had a 4 ton fist and a set of nuts that would make a bull jealous...yet he maintained course...pushed forward and in the end all his war hawk, scare tactics made him an unpopular and iconic figure, soon to turn to the most popular British political figure in the history of the UK. I know that Bush and Churchill are different, but they are walking close lines as far as history, agression and popularity. You may not agree that fighting a war in Iraq is right or that we have no justification for doing so, you opinion is greatly appreciated...but useless when factoring common sense. Nobody has yet to tell me how bringing home our troops will save our shores from another 9/11...it can't be explained because pacifism DOESN"T WORK. Iraq is the battlefield on the war on terror, liberals and the confused need to understand this...it's not I don't mind seeing those men and women die or get injured, hell it really fucks me up knowing I have friends and family of there, but to know they are doing a duty, making a promise to protect us, fight a war there instead of here...for us makes me feel safer.

I do appreciate how you group me with the Evangelicals, but unfortunately you fail to see that I'm not a right wing religious freak, or a red neck trailor park BBQ Big roast cracker...If thats how you wanna imagine me, thats fine, if thats how I come off because you don't wanna agree with my political views that great...but the liberal "shit" that you are being fed is a waste of brain space...please don't ruin your entire life on the side of a political party that is so media controlled and activist ran that you regret it later in life.

Port Security - Has improved, but ofcourse not enough...right?

Look for Bin Laden - are you kidding? we have Rangers, Marine Recon, Seals, CIA and other assets looking for him as we speak...you think its easy finding one man in the mountains of Asia...paying tribes as he goes using his oil money to build bunkers, tunnels and anything he needs to stay "hidden"...ofcourse there are people who think Elvis, Hitler and the Titanic still exist...give it time, as long as he is on the run...we are alright, catching his does not make the foundation of radical islamic terrorism crumble...but you liberals understand that I'm sure.

9/11 Commission Report recommendations - exactly that, great...so the administration thinks alot of it is a "crack of shit" another opion in the matter but in the end what did the commission really do? look into how we shoulda coulda woulda done something different? yes.

Our troops get "slaughtered in Iraq" yes there are deaths, death happens in war and war happens because of death...in the beginning 9/11 was the cause of this...OUR enemy fights by no geneva convention rules, they kill women and kids, use them as shields...they sacrifice themselves for virgins in the sky...our troops will have bad memories, some will come home with honors but not vertical...our troops are fighting the war and a war we must win...unpopular with you and all your buddies...in the end too bad.

I don't know what more to say, this is funny yet it bothers me knowing that the "girly man" movement is really here...I would expect the men of this country to stand up and say "lets kick the shit out of them" lets make them fear us...lets make sure they NEVER do this again...thats what my grandparents did in 1941...and they did.

being a pussy might be cool with the girls or whatever...but when dealing with terrorist, its not.




^ haha "still do"...the only people left in America that "still do" are the people that think that Adam and Eve rode to church on dinosaurs and that Jesus traveled around the world burying fake dinosaur bones.

Your boy Bush still hasn't done anything with the War on Terror...refuses to protect the ports, look for Bin Laden, or implement any of the 9/11 commission recommendations. If it was Kerry or Gore...Bin Laden would be hanging from a rope now, there would be atleast one armed soldier watching each nuclear plant, and we wouldn't be bogged down for the next 30 years in Iraq watching our brave young men and women get slaughtered. They woulda made us a hell of a lot safer, rather than Bush making us a hell of a lot less safe. But thats ok President Bush doesn't know any of our soldiers, no one in his family has to go get slaughtered in Iraq. Good luck in '08 with George Pataki being the GOPs strongest candidate. GWB has almost irreperably damaged the GOP, which is why virtually everyone in the GOP has jumped ship (except for you and the Falwells) :wave: Merry Christmas BuffCity :)

hey buff, one of the most wealthy AND Republican counties in the nation (Williamson Co.) is here outside of Nashville, and Bush doesn't even have support there any more.

Ouch!

DT...thats wonderful

Bjfan...agreed

buffcity...I'll take this over to the non-development forum.

Investors buy into WNY
Basha Issar's ambitious plans for the Statler bring new investment into the area
Business First of Buffalo - December 22, 2006 by James Fink Business First

Bashar Issa invested $3.5 million to purchase the Statler Towers.

http://cll.bizjournals.com/story_image/66182-400-0.jpg?rev=3

Ten steps.

In less than one minute and 10 steps inside the lobby of the Statler Towers, that's exactly how long it took Bashar Issa to decide to buy the historic downtown landmark.

This summer, Issa's BSC Development Group bought the 18-story building for $3.5 million.

To be sure, there were other larger real estate transactions that took place in the past year, but Issa's deal is yet another sign that the Buffalo Niagara region remains a hot space for out-of-town investors. It is a trend that began a few years back and one that many real estate insiders feel has yet to reach its crescendo.

"All of the other big markets have been oversold," said Robert Schell, NAI Pyramid Brokerage Co. of Buffalo president. "But, upstate New York has remained relatively untouched from an investment side."

From plants in Niagara Falls to apartment buildings in Amherst, the region has seen a number of out-of-town investment groups purchase local real estate.

"New outside investment tends to stimulate other investments," said Andrew Rudnick, Buffalo Niagara Partnership president and CEO. "Nothing legitimizes the seriousness of the marketplace better than outside investment."

Issa may be the best example of that trend.

The British native almost stumbled on the Buffalo Niagara market by happenstance as he was scouting second tier cities for real estate investment opportunities.

Issa came to Buffalo in late January at the urging of commercial broker George Hamberger.

The first building he visited was the Statler, and that was all he needed to see. It is Issa's first United States transactions and mirrors what he has done in Manchester, England, by restoring older and often neglected buildings.

"The architecture in it and the look of the building," Issa said during a late October interview.

The Statler was - or is - like a faded Hollywood starlet. Years of neglect have taken its toll in terms of the building's structure and tenant rolls.

Issa wants to reverse that.

"The building is beautiful and I want to bring it back to what it was," he said.

The developer has pledged to invest more than $80 million as part of a plan to convert into a mixed-use facility with 10 floors of upscale condos, a 150-room hotel and refurbished office, retail and entertainment space.

During a Nov. 21 Buffalo Planning Board meetings, Issa's representatives said they hope the project can be completed by late 2008 or 2009.

That's also around the same time, Issa wants to start work on his second and decidedly more ambitious project - a 40-story, mixed-use tower on South Elmwood Avenue that will shadow the Statler.

Whether the tower ever gets built remains a question mark as it will be driven by market demand.

"We live in a herd-like society," Issa said. "You have to be a calculated risk taker. Some projects are just purely bought by investors for an investment. Others are bought by developers who are reacting to a market. It is, however, very different to be buying an existing building with existing tenants."

James Dentinger, McGuire Development Group president, thinks the Buffalo Niagara region has not seen the last of out-of-town investors.

Some of the area's most notable addresses have "for sale" signs on them.

Last year, the HSBC Center, downtown Buffalo's tallest building a 38-story floor that towers over the skyline, was sold to an New York City-based investment group for $85 million.

HSBC Center was put back on the market this year with a $121 million price tag.

"Investors are looking at urban areas, especially in second tier cities," Dentinger said. "I don't think we've seen the last of these deals."

Just in the past 12 months:

The Sidway Apartments were sold by local developer Michael Joseph to Woodlark Cos. for $7 million. New York-based Woodlark, last year, bought the Colonie Apartments in Amherst.
Uniland Development Co. sold the Maple Ridge Plaza in Amherst for $10.3 million. The plaza was sold to New York City-based interests.
The Hampton Inn hotel in East Aurora sold for $4 million.
Out-of-town interests acquired the First Lancer Court Apartments in Cheektowaga, paying for $7.98 million for the complex.
Wal-Mart paid $6.66 million for a large tract of vacant land along Transit Road in Lancaster, where it will be building a superstore.
"For the first time, we are seeing investors come into Western New York at a very meaningful level," Dentinger said.

Count Michael Kolar as one of those out-of-towners who can't believe how inexpensive local real estate is compared to other regions.

Kolar is the primary partner in Patriot Equities, a Pennsylvania-based investment group that purchased 700 acres of industrial property near the Niagara Falls International Airport.

The deal comes with a sweetener.

Saint-Gobain, which owned the property, has agreed to lease back 150,000-square-feet of space in the nearly 650,000-square-feet of space that sits on the property.

Imagine buying 700 acres that includes 650,000-square-feet of office, warehouse and distribution space and already comes with an anchor tenant and a next door airport.

Kolar couldn't believe the price - just under $2 million.

"It is under-utilized real estate," he said.

That is the message Kolar took back to Pennsylvania and Issa took back to England.

There is another factor.

Investors who may have been skittish about the stock market are looking to real estate deals.

Bricks and mortar, for the most part, usually increase over time.

"Buffalo is not as volatile as other markets," said Paul Ciminelli, Ciminelli Cos. president and chief executive officer. "You don't get the big swings and cycles that you see elsewhere. From a national perspective, Buffalo real estate is not that risky of a deal. National investors look at Buffalo real estate from a portfolio perspective, almost like a mutual fund as something that will grow over time."