Today I was at Retail Core with my friend for shopping and dinner. I saw Escala getting a second tower crane. I am surprised that they have two tower cranes already. I wonder why one skyscraper need more than one tower crane? This is not my first time to see some skyscrapers got two or three tower cranes... I always wonder why... Anyone knows why?

BoulderGrad -- The part that's underway is apparently the largest part. The blocks to the north and south also have smaller projects planned last I heard. If you look at google maps it's pretty easy to see where all the trucks are, though I'm not exactly clear where the boundaries are. It can probably be figured out at the DPD site.

Here's a DJC story from November 2005:

Joining the Wonder Bread site on the in-city redevelopment roster is the Vitamilk Dairy, a 3-block project in Greenlake whose construction cost could reach $100 million, according to Lorig Associates' Tom Bartholomew, senior project manager.

The City Council gave the project a boost when it voted to allow Lorig to build up to 65 feet tall. The limit had been 40 feet. The decision clears the way for design, Bartholomew says. Hewitt Architects is designing the first phase. No contractor has been selected.

It's a phased project between Northeast 70th and 73rd streets and Woodlawn and Fifth avenues northeast. Ultimately it will have up to 375 residences and 125,000 square feet above two levels of underground parking. The first phase will include about half the retail and about 225 residences.

It has not been decided if the homes will be rentals or for sale, according to Bartholomew. "I know we are going to build a pretty upscale project," he says, adding the goal is to start construction in 12 to 15 months. "Our focus right now is finding a grocery anchor."

More than one crane is generally needed due to schedule and/or site layout. For example one crane can stay pretty busy feeding the elevator core with rebar and moving forms. The other crane can focus on supplying materials to the floors that are being formed and loading conduit, ductwork, trash etc. If only one crane was used on larger projects it would just take longer to build the building.

Some sites need more than one crane because neighboring buildings make it difficult to reach the whole site with just one.

I don't think we come across this issue too often in the US but I recently learned why I probably saw so many cranes at the London site pictured below when I was there in May. Airspace rights - I talked to a crane expert recently and mentioned that I was surprised that there were 3 luffing cranes on a relatively small site. He explained that in Europe air-rights are a big deal and often mean that cranes can not pass over neighboring properties which equals more cranes.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h17/seasun_01/londonMay2007.jpg

^^ Wow! That made a lot of sense now! Thanks! I thought it might be only reason to have more than one tower/luffing crane on one skyscraper to get it built faster to meet the deadline. I didn't want to make any assumption so I had to ask. Thanks again! :)

Having more than one tower/luffing cranes on skyscraper is pretty common in Las Vegas and New York City than most cities that I know of.

Today I was at Retail Core with my friend for shopping and dinner. I saw Escala getting a second tower crane. I am surprised that they have two tower cranes already. I wonder why one skyscraper need more than one tower crane? This is not my first time to see some skyscrapers got two or three tower cranes... I always wonder why... Anyone knows why?

Didn't Lincoln Square in Bellevue have like...four?

Didn't Lincoln Square in Bellevue have like...four?

Four? I didn't remember seeing four tower cranes... Only two tower cranes at different time (one for Lincoln Tower where Westin Hotel is at and one for Eddie Bauser Tower).

Four? I didn't remember seeing four tower cranes... Only two tower cranes at different time (one for Lincoln Tower where Westin Hotel is at and one for Eddie Bauser Tower).

Really? I must be mistaken then. I drove by Lincoln a couple months ago and saw four things sticking up on the top. I assumed they were cranes...but I probably am because I was too close to the tower to actually tell.

Really? I must be mistaken then. I drove by Lincoln a couple months ago and saw four things sticking up on the top. I assumed they were cranes...but I probably am because I was too close to the tower to actually tell.

I think so. I think these sticking up on the top you saw were construction elevators for construction workers or window washer cranes (about every skyscraper have them). Anyone can correct me if I am wrong.

That makes sense.

Anyone know if there's a condo project on cap hill directly along pike? I was there last night and my friend said they were razing an entire block for some bland condo project. I was a bit disappointed since the block he was referring to was already lively with packed restaurants and bars. I never appreciated cap hill's creative fabric and energy before...so I hope this condo project doesn't screw things up!

I think so. I think these sticking up on the top you saw were construction elevators for construction workers or window washer cranes (about every skyscraper have them). Anyone can correct me if I am wrong.

Thinking about the bravern site maybe?

Anyone know if there's a condo project on cap hill directly along pike? I was there last night and my friend said they were razing an entire block for some bland condo project. I was a bit disappointed since the block he was referring to was already lively with packed restaurants and bars. I never appreciated cap hill's creative fabric and energy before...so I hope this condo project doesn't screw things up!

Are you sure it's on Pike and not Pine? The Belmont and Pine project has gotten a fair amount of press -- it's on the block that includes the Cha Cha, Bimbo's, Kincora, Manray, etc.

That project seems unfortunate to me; it's bad for the neighborhood to lose that block of low-rent, successful business space and given that there are still a fair number of good development spots available (the old QFC, the old Chang's Mongolian Grill site, some of upper Pine/Pike, etc.), I'd rather have seen those developed first.

That said, I wouldn't worry that it will screw things up too much. Bimbo's and the Cha Cha have a new location, I think, and the Capitol Hill hipsters will still need to go somewhere, so expect new cool bars to open.

The bigger threat to vitality, in my opinion, is that rising rents will make housing unaffordable to young hipster types without professional incomes. I'm not sure how the Belmont and Pine project will play out in that equation. It'll add a number of new units (150-ish?) while only taking out one small apartment building (10-ish units?). But the new units will presumably cost quite a bit more; I'm not sure how much the trickle-down effect of increased supply at the high end will keep rents low at the low end.

The old QFC site on Broadway is slated for a big housing development with retail. Many of the underused sites around there have plans. Two other examples are across Broadway from SCCC.

I wish developments would go to the most-underused sites, but it just doesn't work that way. Many properties are owned by people or companies that don't share other people's vision, or don't care about anything, or want to charge way more than market price. Developers buy the best sites they can. I'm sure the site on Pine wasn't cheap, because it already have valuable tenants. So tearing it down means they lose value instantly.

The biggest threat to affordability is imblance between supply and demand. In San Francisco, a crappy little apartment that would go for $800 in Pike/Pine might go for $1,800. The only way to avoid that is to keep supply a little ahead of demand, which SF doesn't do. Here, there's definitely a "trading up" dynamic. The "luxury" or mid-priced apartment of 1920, 1960, or even 1980 is often the affordable apartment of today.

I'd rather Capitol Hill stayed reasonably priced too, both the retail and the housing. But Pike/Pine does seem to be destined for higher rents because of its location. It'll always have some of its current flavor and role, but some of it will spread to other neighborhoods. Candidates include anywhere that has a large volume of aging apartments, some underused storefronts, and good transit.

But my point is the trend toward higher rents will be reduced by new development, not increased. Give the higher-income people places to move that don't involve bidding against 25-year-olds making $30k.

Thinking about the bravern site maybe?

What do you mean? I was talking about Lincoln Square.

I heard rumors from few people that I know that The Cuffs (gay bar) at Pine & 12 (I think) is slated to get razed for new condo development... I tried to find the information to see if this rumor is true... I couldn't find it... Anyone knows about this?

I heard rumors from few people that I know that The Cuffs (gay bar) at Pine & 12 (I think) is slated to get razed for new condo development... I tried to find the information to see if this rumor is true... I couldn't find it... Anyone knows about this?

As far as I know the Cuff will stay but the new condo will get built behind it. They are going to tear down the old furniture building on 12th. I will do some more checking to see if they didnt buy the whole building. But yes there will be development in that area..

If the Cuff stays, it will be interesting to see how they are going to manage the back patio and outdoor bar with out getting noise complaints.

^^ Interesting... Thanks for telling me that. :)

In my opinion, if these condo dwellers complains about the noises from The Cuffs... They should use their common sense to not buy the condo at the first place.

Also, the Chang's Mongolian Grill will be site of one the entrances to the new Light Rail Station. Likely also a staging area for the construction below.

^^ Interesting... Thanks for telling me that. :)

In my opinion, if these condo dwellers complains about the noises from The Cuffs... They should use their common sense to not buy the condo at the first place.

I agree. Its a part of living in a dense neighborhood. That why I live here.

I believe that the condo building will be 6 floors. I will keep you posted or perhaps others will shed some light. 12th ave on Capitol Hill is really coming along. I just walked up there yesterday and could not believe the changes. It will change the dyanmic of the area for the better.

I agree. Its a part of living in a dense neighborhood. That why I live here.

I believe that the condo building will be 6 floors. I will keep you posted or perhaps others will shed some light. 12th ave on Capitol Hill is really coming along. I just walked up there yesterday and could not believe the changes. It will change the dyanmic of the area for the better.

Thanks! I apperciate that. I am considering to buy a condo somewhere in Capital Hill neighborhood around next year. I'm keeping my eyes on latest developments for now.

^Hey, I forgot to mention that I in fact did not see a rendering of Alex. I confused that project with the one that's going up on 3rd and Wall, is it? The firm that has the odd name that I cannot remember how to spell..... Cornruffandmotte or something of the sort. Someone here correct me, please. Hope you all are having a nice Sunday. I'm cooking up a storm for some out of town guests, gotta go!

Ruffcorn Mott Hinthorne Stine?

Really? What is going up there?

Yes mhays, thank you!

http://www.schnitzerwest.com/project.html?id=1918

Couple renderings for Schnitzer's 1918 Eighth tower which is going to be directly west of the Cosmopolitan at the SE corner of 8th and Virginia. The exterior finish looks nearly identical to the 4th & Madison tower.

I know that this is not a political site and I try to stay far away from those discussions when they occur because we should just focus on architecture, but something has been eating at me and I have to vent. I read the thread that seattleboyD started and the following remarks after his entry which was ultimately closed because of some racist remarks me made (and very rightly so). So when a forum member a couple of weeks ago had some homophobic remarks about Capitol Hill and gay people in general, nobody to my great disappointment, chastised him in the the same way about his inappropriate words and behavior. My brother, who is also my best friend is gay, and I love him very deeply, so when I hear words like that, I find them inexcusable and horribly wrong. One of the reasons I call Seattle my home is because of it's accepting nature and that it celebrates the individual not the masses, so those words were really not cool, especially since they didn't have to be said in the context of the architectural conversations that we have at the site. With that said, I will again step away from political conversations here, but I had the get it out. Thanks.

Don't pity him and his narrow-mindedness. I probably missed the homophobic comments (as did the other homos in this forum!) as these comments roll off my back; we're a pretty sturdy bunch. I've counted many who regularly participate here so you're in better company than you think. I also didn't correct his redundancy: aren't all immigrants from foreign countries?!

I have the perception that there is a higher than average (in relation to the general population) amount of gay people that participate in this forum. Nothing wrong with it, just my observation. I imagine the same is true with other forums that discuss matters of urbane and artsy* nature. Which would also explain all the talk about when we will get new retailers in the city.

*I would consider the architecture facet of this site as artsy.

^^ I agree. It is pretty common for gay community that have similar interests in architecture. I'm one of them. I don't take any personal if anyone talks negative about homosexuality because I understand where they comes from and have a lot of things to learn.

a few weeks ago usa patriot said he didn't like all the homo banners in capital hill if he's refering to the rainbow flags or something that says gay pride then that's stupid. if he's refering to the pictures of men with their cocks hanging out yeah usually it's partially covered by a black bar the tip'll still be showing or part of the balls, i've seen some with no black bar. i've actually seen a business with a picture of a man giving another man a blowjob. then i see where he's coming from. being a strait man i have no desire to see that, being a liberal if i had kids i wouldn't want them to see it either i've also seen a picture of a dude screwin a chick

I am gay and if I had read the homophobic remarks before they were taken down I certainly would have said something. Unlike CityViewJim and CrazyAboutCities, I do take these comments personally. I've fought too hard and come too far to simply ignore ignorant, hateful remarks.

As SeaGuy has said, this is an architectural forum, not a politcal forum. All of you are entitled to your opinions and beliefs no matter how much they may differ from someone else's. Donate your time and money to political and religious organizations that share your view, call your elected officials and exercise your right to vote, but really guys, let's keep things on this forum civil and stick to talking about Seattle's buildings.

Thank you

OK, one more post about gay stuff and ALL the posts about gay stuff in this thread get deleted.

Yes, there is a disproportion of gays on this forum. If you don't like it, take your beef to another thread elsewhere, this is a thread about downtown Seattle development.

Thank you Bond.

:lol: :banana: Lets stay on subject!!

What a Boring Damn Building. Yeah it's got some decent detailing blah, blah, but come on...the same building could have been built in the 60's.
Crown?, Curve?, Twist?, Color?' Stepback?, ??? How about something Beautiful we can admire rather than just another flat topped rectangle.

http://www.schnitzerwest.com/project.html?id=1918

Couple renderings for Schnitzer's 1918 Eighth tower which is going to be directly west of the Cosmopolitan at the SE corner of 8th and Virginia. The exterior finish looks nearly identical to the 4th & Madison tower.

Yeah, sadly it will block views of the beautiful federal building...

It looks a bit like the IDX Tower, but without the "steps" on the top floors.

Yeah that's another ugly boring building we can add to our skyline that won't get a 2nd glance. Seriously, don't architects want their buildings to stand out??? I think I posted this already, but I'm still waiting to see a tall, slim tower with a lighted CROWN on top. We need one of those.

Many people forget that a simple boxy tower is cost effective than a flashy looking tower. You can get more space on each floors more efficently. It's less complicated to construct it, also. Look at King County Office building got built in under a year because it's simple to build.

I know it's not attractive looking which sucks....

Looks like excavation has begun on the 5th and Yesler building

Yeah that's another ugly boring building we can add to our skyline that won't get a 2nd glance. Seriously, don't architects want their buildings to stand out??? I think I posted this already, but I'm still waiting to see a tall, slim tower with a lighted CROWN on top. We need one of those.

I agree. Lighted crowns are very attractive. However, I think Cristalla has a lighted crown, doesn't it? It has a yellow band of light surrounding the top of the building. Unfortunate that it's not taller, though, so as to stand out more. I hope some of the newer towers being built in Belltown and Denny Triangle have such features, as well as more "sculptural" tops.

... but I'm still waiting to see a tall, slim tower with a lighted CROWN on top. We need one of those.Is the pyramid atop the Smith Tower not lit up at night?

Boxy towers ARE boring. New Tokyo developments are the MOST BORING STRUCTURES I have ever seen in a modern city. EVERY building looks the same. And they're COMPLETELY rectangular.

This whole political discussion started becasue of me apparently. Sorry it caused such a hub-bub. Lets forget it all as Mr. Bond said. We all have our own views. Lets keep them to ourselves. Makes all of our expeerience here better.





I like how the building looks, but it reminds me of IDX Tower. One of those new modern types going up...many look similair.

I like to see Seattle to have some "crazy" skyscrapers like Dubai does. That would make Seattle skyline more interesting. I think Seattle is somewhat conversative on skyscraper designs which is why we got so many boxy skyscrapers. We finally got some curved skyscrapers... That is still not enough.

Oh yes what is the building going up near the Seattle Library?

Oh yes what is the building going up near the Seattle Library?

Marison(sp?) Building?

Marison(sp?) Building?

Funny I can't find anything on the Marison on the internet. Do you know which company is in charge of the construction?

Funny I can't find anything on the Marison on the internet. Do you know which company is in charge of the construction?

I apolopize my mind being blank today. Its 5th and Madison not Marison Building. Their website is http://www.5thandmadison.com/index.htm.

5th & Yestlet is still happening!!!!!!!! I thought that project was dead a long time ago

Looks like excavation has begun on the 5th and Yesler building
Holy crap, I can't believe it. Are u serious?? :uh:

Maybe mhays can fill us in a little about 5th and Yesler. Last time I drove by the site was fenced off and the Lewis banner was up.

Does anyone know off the top of their head what the heigh restrictions--for either residential or commercial buildings--are in Belltown? I realise that most of Belltown lies outside the area included in the recent relaxation of height restrictions. I looked at a zoning map of the recent changes at the Department of Planning and Development's page on the City of Seattle website, and I can't figure out exactly what DMR 125/65 means. I gather it means that commercial buildings can be 125' tall and residential ones 65' tall. Or can residential buildings be 125' tall? Surely buildings in this neighbourhood can be taller than six storeys! Besides, what would explain the construction of high-rises about 15-20 storeys in height in recent years? Any information is appreciated.

Belltown has a mix of DOC2 500/300-500, DMC 240/290-400, DMC 240/290-400, DMR/R 125/65, DMR/R 85/65, etc., etc. The higher figures are for housing (maybe always?) while the lower are for offices. Naturally it's more complicated than that. I'm not very knowledgeable.

Right you are BellevueBoy, it's one of our projects.

I can not find any info on 5th and Yesler tower. Whats the deal with this one? Is it Starbucks offices of Condo/Apts?

http://aycu38.webshots.com/image/25197/2000473714792639576_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000473714792639576)

I always thought that hill was too steep for an office building, but I guess I'm wrong!

It doesn't look like it will dig too far into the hill if the sketch remains the current design. Less than 100 feet?

I can not find any info on 5th and Yesler tower. Whats the deal with this one? Is it Starbucks offices of Condo/Apts?

http://aycu38.webshots.com/image/25197/2000473714792639576_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000473714792639576)

Such a boring design. Does anyone have the original 25-30 floor rendering that had the rounded roof? I don't know why they didn't keep that one, it's so much better than this bland one.

i don't mind the design. you guys are all so hatefull of a simple normal looking building that will be pleasant to walk by. they shortened it because of the hellicoptor pad at harborview

it fits well with the New County Office Building, imho

I like the design. It is nothing earth shattering, but good infill. Not every building can or should be an architectural statement. That said, is there a bit of curvature to that building on the side, or is it just the perspective on the way the drawing was made? I always like curves in buildings, even subtle ones, so hopefully that is what I am seeing.

How many floors is it? Looks like 15 or 16...

Such a boring design. Does anyone have the original 25-30 floor rendering that had the rounded roof? I don't know why they didn't keep that one, it's so much better than this bland one.
Yes, I agree. This one woulda been soooo cool.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9469/126yesxt3.jpg

I can not find any info on 5th and Yesler tower. Whats the deal with this one? Is it Starbucks offices of Condo/Apts?

http://aycu38.webshots.com/image/25197/2000473714792639576_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000473714792639576)

This design looks more interesting than average. Though it starts to remind of the 5th and Jackson building if not well executed. If you've never read this Seattle PI review of 5th and Jackson it is HARSH and I think fun to read. The review stuck with me to this day and I just searched for it (thanks google). http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/visualart/117113_architecture14.html

Belltown has a mix of DOC2 500/300-500, DMC 240/290-400, DMC 240/290-400, DMR/R 125/65, DMR/R 85/65, etc., etc. The higher figures are for housing (maybe always?) while the lower are for offices. Naturally it's more complicated than that. I'm not very knowledgeable.

Right you are BellevueBoy, it's one of our projects.

Thanks, Mhays. That's very helpful.

Does anyone know approximately how many storeys high, on average, a 125' building is?

Glad I could assist.

A 125' building will most often be 12 stories if it's housing. Sometimes you see 13-story buildings in that zone, but they would need very low floor-to-floor heights or some sort of exception to go a little taller. An office buiding would max out at 10 floors (often 9) and a lab would be 8 or 9. Of course that's mostly academic because that height usually applies to housing only.

Belltown has a mix of DOC2 500/300-500, DMC 240/290-400, DMC 240/290-400, DMR/R 125/65, DMR/R 85/65, etc., etc. The higher figures are for housing (maybe always?) while the lower are for offices. Naturally it's more complicated than that. I'm not very knowledgeable.

Right you are BellevueBoy, it's one of our projects.

Hey Mhays, can you give me an explanation of what these numbers and letters (DOC2 500/300-500, DMC 240/290-400, DMC 240/290-400, DMR/R 125/65, DMR/R 85/65) stand for? Also I am currently looking for a job, volunteer or paid, and would like something that has to do with regional development. Aerospace was my first choice, but I couldn't get anything, even when I contact UW and Boeing only has a job-shadow thing once a year, so that won't work. So do you have any recommendations? Thanks! My e-mail is JL.hawc@hotmail.com

Yes, I agree. This one woulda been soooo cool.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9469/126yesxt3.jpg

Interesting model! What project is it? Will it get built?

I have a question for condo owners or anyone who own condo(s) before...

I did some condo shopping today... Something came up in my mind and I don't have the answer for that...

Suppose you own a condo in the building that have retail space on the streetlevel... Do you and another condo dwellers have the power to control what tenants to occup the retail space? Who is the responsible to make the decision what tenants they have in their buildings?

For example, I looked at Brix site today and saw the sign of "McDonald's Coming Soon" that surprised me. That made me wonder if any condo dwellers can control what tenants they want to have in their buildings... I don't think many condo dwellers would want to live above McDonalds or any fast food restaurants because of smell, health issues, and could hurt their property values.

I have a question for condo owners or anyone who own condo(s) before...

I did some condo shopping today... Something came up in my mind and I don't have the answer for that...

Suppose you own a condo in the building that have retail space on the streetlevel... Do you and another condo dwellers have the power to control what tenants to occup the retail space? Who is the responsible to make the decision what tenants they have in their buildings?

For example, I looked at Brix site today and saw the sign of "McDonald's Coming Soon" that surprised me. That made me wonder if any condo dwellers can control what tenants they want to have in their buildings... I don't think many condo dwellers would want to live above McDonalds or any fast food restaurants because of smell, health issues, and could hurt their property
values.


I have owned/lived in condos above retail on several occasions. As just an owner of an individual unit I cannot see where you would have any control. In all of my cases Even the H.O.A. had no control.

Just my experience.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9469/126yesxt3.jpg

http://aycu38.webshots.com/image/25197/2000473714792639576_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000473714792639576)

CrazyAboutCities these are one in the same. But somebody got there dirty little hands involved in the design and the Vision was killed.

I have a question for condo owners or anyone who own condo(s) before...

I did some condo shopping today... Something came up in my mind and I don't have the answer for that...

Suppose you own a condo in the building that have retail space on the streetlevel... Do you and another condo dwellers have the power to control what tenants to occup the retail space? Who is the responsible to make the decision what tenants they have in their buildings?

For example, I looked at Brix site today and saw the sign of "McDonald's Coming Soon" that surprised me. That made me wonder if any condo dwellers can control what tenants they want to have in their buildings... I don't think many condo dwellers would want to live above McDonalds or any fast food restaurants because of smell, health issues, and could hurt their property values.

This is an awful disappointment. Brix supposedly wanted to attract unique establishments, preferably local ones. Vivace's new store will relocate to Brix and I cannot imagine them next to a McDonald's. Is this a joke? Did somebody wheat paste something to make a point of some sort?

Do you and another condo dwellers have the power to control what tenants to occup the retail space? Who is the responsible to make the decision what tenants they have in their buildings?


The short answer would be it depends how the building's Declarations and ownership arrangement are written. I'd suspect some business person owns the commerical/retail condo in the building and that person controls who the tenants are.

In my building there's an overall Tower Board that manages shared spaces and the exterior of the building and there's a Residential Board. The Tower Board has 2 votes for the office space condo owner and there are (I think) 3 votes for the residential condos based on the square footage or original voting power set-up when the building was built. The Residential component can always out-vote the Commercial space but I suspect the residents would have to try really hard (lots of legal bills!) to forbid certain types of tenants.

I have owned/lived in condos above retail on several occasions. As just an owner of an individual unit I cannot see where you would have any control. In all of my cases Even the H.O.A. had no control.

Just my experience.

If H.O.A. and condo owners have no controls for retail tenants then who is the responsible to decide what retail tenants they going to have in their buildings?

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9469/126yesxt3.jpg

http://aycu38.webshots.com/image/25197/2000473714792639576_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000473714792639576)

CrazyAboutCities these are one in the same. But somebody got there dirty little hands involved in the design and the Vision was killed.

Aww that sucks! :( I like the vision better.

This is an awful disappointment. Brix supposedly wanted to attract unique establishments, preferably local ones. Vivace's new store will relocate to Brix and I cannot imagine them next to a McDonald's. Is this a joke? Did somebody wheat paste something to make a point of some sort?

I agree. Nope it is real sign of McDonald coming soon on the construction fence on Broadway. I saw it yesterday. We have too many McDonalds in downtown Seattle area. :ohno: I rather to see something different than fast food restaurants like unique bonqiues or cafes on Brix site.

The short answer would be it depends how the building's Declarations and ownership arrangement are written. I'd suspect some business person owns the commerical/retail condo in the building and that person controls who the tenants are.

In my building there's an overall Tower Board that manages shared spaces and the exterior of the building and there's a Residential Board. The Tower Board has 2 votes for the office space condo owner and there are (I think) 3 votes for the residential condos based on the square footage or original voting power set-up when the building was built. The Residential component can always out-vote the Commercial space but I suspect the residents would have to try really hard (lots of legal bills!) to forbid certain types of tenants.

I see. I will keep that in my mind when if I find a condo that I like that happens to have retail space and I will ask about that. Thanks! :)

Hey Mhays, can you give me an explanation of what these numbers and letters (DOC2 500/300-500, DMC 240/290-400, DMC 240/290-400, DMR/R 125/65, DMR/R 85/65) stand for? Also I am currently looking for a job, volunteer or paid, and would like something that has to do with regional development. Aerospace was my first choice, but I couldn't get anything, even when I contact UW and Boeing only has a job-shadow thing once a year, so that won't work. So do you have any recommendations? Thanks! My e-mail is JL.hawc@hotmail.com

I don't know much about zoning. The numbers are off a map at my desk at work. But you could look at the Seattle Municipal Code: See Title 23: http://clerk.ci.seattle.wa.us/~public/toc/table.htm. It has a section that explains what each zoning designation means, and it has maps.

If you're willing to volunteer significant time you're a hot property. Lots of advocacy groups (non-profits) would love to have you do basic tasks at first (reception desk?), then start taking more substantive roles after proving yourself. This was my route starting in late 1992. I volunteered a couple full days per week then was hired by the same group a few months later. After that, getting a job for an actual company in 1996 was much easier.

I'll e-mail you. If you send me your resume I'll take a look.

Thanks Mhays! I'm looking forward to some opportunities :banana:

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/5606/img0464vm8.jpg

^^ Yay for another skyscraper construction! :banana:

I agree. Nope it is real sign of McDonald coming soon on the construction fence on Broadway. I saw it yesterday. We have too many McDonalds in downtown Seattle area. :ohno: I rather to see something different than fast food restaurants like unique bonqiues or cafes on Brix site.

I passed Brix site today and saw McDonald sign gone. I have no idea what's up with that. I suspect that might be just prank or some unhappy Capital Hill residents that hate McDonalds might take it down. :dunno:

^^ Yay for another skyscraper construction! :banana:

They're building a skyscraper on that hill?

They're building a skyscraper on that hill?

Yes they do.

Is that a new Park and Ride behind the site?

The garage is for County staff. They built it because they tore down another garage, and then used that site for their new office building.

Is that a new Park and Ride behind the site?

Ahhhh. It looks like the new park and ride. There's a couple new ones popping up, and they don't all look like concrete slabs piled up against each other. I just wish they would spice things up a big by actually placing small retail stores within the park and rides.

sorry, if I post it on the wrong thread. I could not find Gallery condo.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o30/chelseanayan/DSC_0306.jpg

^^Im waiting for mhays to start that thread

^^ OK, thanks.

What skyscraper they building on Fifth and Yesler?

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o30/chelseanayan/DSC_0301-1.jpg

I also noticed a construction crane stump placed for the apartments at Denny and Taylor (I think?). Don't know if we really want to keep track of all these low rise projects, but what the heck. It's another crane! Wasn't there supposed to be another Hyatt built near this site, too?

And other Denny news. The Mirabella prject is picking up steam! Up to the 6th floor (of 12) and enclosed up to the 3rd. Brick facade has started. I think this one will look nice. Which is good as this is taking up an entire block.

Yes a Hyatt has been planned. It's 2/3 of the half-block between the Taylor 28 block and the Aurora & John site.

I always liked the renderings of Mirabella.

Ahhhh. It looks like the new park and ride. There's a couple new ones popping up, and they don't all look like concrete slabs piled up against each other. I just wish they would spice things up a big by actually placing small retail stores within the park and rides.

Riders would like that, but typically there isn't the customer base to support stores except for downtowns and some urban village locations. A coffee shop would do ok in the morning rush hour, but at some of these park-n-rides, there's nobody around the rest of the day except people within walking distance and some transfers, and even nights they tend to head right for the car.

Some park-n-rides are rebuilding with housing on top. That's the real win. Residents get to live at a major transit nexus, it can be enough people to support a little retail, etc.

Riders would like that, but typically there isn't the customer base to support stores except for downtowns and some urban village locations. A coffee shop would do ok in the morning rush hour, but at some of these park-n-rides, there's nobody around the rest of the day except people within walking distance and some transfers, and even nights they tend to head right for the car.

Some park-n-rides are rebuilding with housing on top. That's the real win. Residents get to live at a major transit nexus, it can be enough people to support a little retail, etc.

Mixed park and rides? As in Park and Rides right beside housing units?

Transit-Oriented Development (TOD) has been very popular with King County Metro. They have had much success with their project in Overlake at The Village at Overlake, near Uwajimaya. Instead of a sprawling lot as seen at most other Park and Rides, this facility incorporates a large garage that is shared by commuters and the residents living above the garage in apartments. There is also a daycare located on the ground floor provided for residents and commuters.

I believe that the tenants in the apartments are usually senior citizens or anyone making 60% of the median income, and they are provided with transit passes to further encourage use of public transportation.


King County TOD Site (http://www.metrokc.gov/kcdot/tod/projects.stm)

The second phase of construction of the new Redmond Park and Ride will include an apartment/garage setup like that seen in Overlake. The first phase is nearly completed, so the second phase could begin sometime soon.

I was wondering how successful TODs have been in the Seattle area. I read an article about how LA is having mixed results with their projects.

http://www.latimes.com/news/la-me-transit30jun30,0,2432973,full.story?coll=la-tot-topstories

I think having mid-income/affordable housing makes a difference since they're the demographic most likely to use transit. Upscale residents (who LA is targeting) seem to drive even if a train was downstairs.

I was at Lower Queen Anne earlier... I noticed that Lower Queen Anne have sea of parking lots. I wonder if these developers have plans to develop on these lots... Anyone know?

I was wondering how successful TODs have been in the Seattle area. I read an article about how LA is having mixed results with their projects.

http://www.latimes.com/news/la-me-transit30jun30,0,2432973,full.story?coll=la-tot-topstories

I think having mid-income/affordable housing makes a difference since they're the demographic most likely to use transit. Upscale residents (who LA is targeting) seem to drive even if a train was downstairs.

We'll start to see in the next few years when light rail and the street trolley start running.

Low-cost housing and park-n-rides are a perfect match. The County (and partners) can build affordable housing on land it already owns. The residents have much easier commutes. They can choose to sell their cars, and minimizing transportation time can help them rise out of poverty.

Low-cost housing and park-n-rides are a perfect match. The County (and partners) can build affordable housing on land it already owns. The residents have much easier commutes. They can choose to sell their cars, and minimizing transportation time can help them rise out of poverty.

Oh wow that's smart! In fact that's really smart. So basically they're sharing the same piece of land for housing and transportation. But I've always wondered, why doesn't ST place more bus stops around the suburbs and neighborhoods. Ya know a bus stop inside/near a neighborhood that takes you to a Park and Ride and you can choose your commute route there...

I think Sound Transit is more focused on the longer routes though I'm not sure about their exact philosophy. But neighborhood service is a big part of what Metro does. In denser, gridded areas they have a lot of success with neighborhood service. But in less-dense areas and places with unconnected neighborhood streets they pretty much have to stay on major roads. On the bright side, the Transit Now package we voted for in November will add a lot of service to many of these major roads as well as park-n-rides and some neighborhood streets.

Sharing land is a pretty important principle. In many spots, you're allowed to build X tall and Y square feet, but one use (hotel, office, whatever) might not pencil. For example, can you really fill the 400 hotel rooms you COULD build? Yet you don't want to build 200 rooms and waste half of the land value. So instead you build 200 hotel rooms plus 100 condos on top. Condo buyers will pay extra to be in a hotel, and they'll also pay a lot more for great views, which hotel customers won't. You're maximizing the value of the land.

Park-n-rides are a good example, and an important one around here due to our housing affordability problems. Another example is supermarkets -- when these are in dense areas and the store needs major work, why not rebuild and fill the allowable zoned area with apartments? This usually makes the reconstruction more expensive on a per-square-foot basis, and you have the additional risk of relying on the 2009 apartment market along with a tougher financing hurdle, but you can make profitable use of that expensive land you own.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o30/chelseanayan/DSC_0301-1.jpg

Ugh, another cheap woodframe POS. :ohno: :puke: :no:

Transit-Oriented Development (TOD) has been very popular with King County Metro. They have had much success with their project in Overlake at The Village at Overlake, near Uwajimaya. Instead of a sprawling lot as seen at most other Park and Rides, this facility incorporates a large garage that is shared by commuters and the residents living above the garage in apartments. There is also a daycare located on the ground floor provided for residents and commuters.

I believe that the tenants in the apartments are usually senior citizens or anyone making 60% of the median income, and they are provided with transit passes to further encourage use of public transportation.


King County TOD Site (http://www.metrokc.gov/kcdot/tod/projects.stm)

The second phase of construction of the new Redmond Park and Ride will include an apartment/garage setup like that seen in Overlake. The first phase is nearly completed, so the second phase could begin sometime soon.


I walk from my home to the redmond park and ride every morning. They are making progress faster than I expected, but I wouldn't say the first phase is nearly complete.

Speaking of TOD's, can someone provide details on this article in today's DJC?

Pine Street plans apartment towers

By LYNN PORTER

The 600-unit transit-oriented project will have smaller units and less parking than is typical in the city.

I walk from my home to the redmond park and ride every morning. They are making progress faster than I expected, but I wouldn't say the first phase is nearly complete.

The first phase was to build a new bus turnaround on the north side of 83rd, and it should be completed in December. Still a few months away, I suppose.

Coincidentally, this article (http://www.metrokc.gov/kcdot/transtoday/2007news/jan/tt011607_redmondpr.htm) was just posted today, so I think the TOD portion of the project is more of a reality than I originally thought.

Ugh, another cheap woodframe POS. :ohno: :puke: :no:

Woodframe units are much less expensive than concrete, all else being equal. Along with lower parking requirements, they're crucial to Seattle's affordability.

Second, woodframe can be of much better quality today than in years past.

Third, water intrusion, the achilles heel of woodframe, should be a reduced now that teams know how to design and build exteriors properly.

Speaking of TOD's, can someone provide details on this article in today's DJC?

Pine Street plans apartment towers

By LYNN PORTER

The 600-unit transit-oriented project will have smaller units and less parking than is typical in the city.

It's two 24-story apartments on the west side of 6th between Lenora and Blanchard, and we're the contractor.

It's two 24-story apartments on the west side of 6th between Lenora and Blanchard, and we're the contractor.

Thanks for the info. What used to be on that site? When I view it on Google Earth there appears to be a lowrise biulding with a interesting dome-like roof. When I tried to get a closer look at it using the Birds Eye View feature on Live, the building is gone and replaced with a parking lot.

The stump for the crane for the Equinox condos has been placed on Eastlake, which will yet another to our sea of cranes. I believe they will 8 stories tall when done.

The dome was a two-screen movie theater called the UA 75/150, or something like that. It was demolished by a previous owner during the tech boom or soon after. The original proposal back then was a telecom/data center around 20 stories, with a few condos on top.

Here's a pano of the first hill right next to downtown Seattle, you can notice some construction going on in that area. That's about 3 projects going on right now in the picture. I took that picture with my pda's built camera. :)

http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/7224/downtownpanoem9.gif

So I've always wondered, what are the advantages and disadvantages of mixed use complexes and what are the advantages and disadvantages of "organized zoning?" (as in residential all here, commercial all there, industrial all down there) other than being able to build big houses with lots of land and parks.

And nice picture Sequoia, how did you take that with a pda camera? It looks like you took two pictures and put them together, is that right?

WOW! Awesome picture, Sequoia! :cheers:

So I've always wondered, what are the advantages and disadvantages of mixed use complexes and what are the advantages and disadvantages of "organized zoning?" (as in residential all here, commercial all there, industrial all down there) other than being able to build big houses with lots of land and parks.

And nice picture Sequoia, how did you take that with a pda camera? It looks like you took two pictures and put them together, is that right?

hehe, its actually 3 pictures sewn together. I used the camera's built in pano feature to do the trick. :) I tweaked it a bit with photoshop. thanks by the way.

WOW! Awesome picture, Sequoia! :cheers:

thanks, bud!

Great shot...Take some more of those around town if you have time.

I ws just at my friends apt the other day (M Street) and I was amazed with the progress on the Skyine Apartments. Nice pic :cheers1:

I read in the Seattle times that Microsoft will be leasing place in SLU. Anyone know the location?

Great shot...Take some more of those around town if you have time.

Good idea, I will when I got the time and money. Thanks by the way. :)

I read in the Seattle times that Microsoft will be leasing place in SLU. Anyone know the location?
At 2201. Under construction across from Whole Foods.

At 2201. Under construction across from Whole Foods.

I thought that was just where they are having the press conference to announce the fact that they are leasing office space in Seattle?

Geez how many campuses does Microsoft need? Huge one in Redmond, another in Bellevue, upcoming in Seattle, possibly another in Issaquah Highlands.

^
Hey, I'm not complaining. ;)

The other rumor is all or part of the remaining 90,000 sf in the complex with the Group Health HQ.

Geez how many campuses does Microsoft need? Huge one in Redmond, another in Bellevue, upcoming in Seattle, possibly another in Issaquah Highlands.

:lol: I am not complaining... At least they're creating thousands of new jobs in Seattle metro area. Go Microsoft! :cheers:

I have been meaning to ask this question for a while...

Every time I walk on 1st Avenue... I noticed that no high rises on Battery street that divide Seattle skyline a bit... No one can build high rise on that street just because of Battery tunnel is under it? I hope it will change one of these days.

Do tunnels affect building heights?

Do tunnels affect building heights?
No, although they do make construction a bit more complicated. Plenty of huge towers right next to tunnels.

eastern half of the gethsamane block is completely fenced off. is it suppose to start soon? i know we've talked about it before, but what project is this?

eastern half of the gethsamane block is completely fenced off. is it suppose to start soon? i know we've talked about it before, but what project is this?

Awesome! Looking forward to seeing this one start. It's a 37 story, 326 unit apartment tower. I found this small rendering on the architect's (LMN) website.

http://www.lmnarchitects.com/projects/new_imgs/Tower%201812%20A.jpg

Had drinks with friends from Microsoft last night. Part of the ramping up of the Seattle presence is in response to the upcoming 520 bridge construction. Rather than having workers trekking back and forth across the Lake as they do now, they will have work places on either side.

What a nice company!

gethsamane block? Where is that?

gethsamane block? Where is that?
Block is bound by Stewart-Terr-Howell-9th. Stewart Street at Terry is where the fencing is. The church takes 1/4 of the block and a 10-12 story office building next door to that on the Howell side. The rest of the block is surface lots.

Awesome! Looking forward to seeing this one start. It's a 37 story, 326 unit apartment tower. I found this small rendering on the architect's (LMN) website.

http://www.lmnarchitects.com/projects/new_imgs/Tower%201812%20A.jpg

This is the 1823 Terry Apartments I thought, or is it Stewart and Terry tower?. If you look at www.urbancondominiums.com and then click on cityscape 2011 you will see Terry Tower Rendering when the camera moves around towards Market district. This Building does not look to interesting yet.

Also Urbancondominiums.com will be opening an office this month for the public and realtors on first avenue in Belltown. I hope they have a model of the future city there.

I'll be very excited if the Gethsemane project is starting! If.

New Denny Triangle proposal today in the DPD. I vaguely recall someone on the board announcing this project a few months back. They mentioned that the developer also bought the Greyhound bus barn across the street and are planning to build a park there. The developer is Lexas, the same team who is building Escala, and the architect is Sclater Partners.

PROJECT DESCRIPTION

The proposal is for a two, 36-story residential towers (500 units) with 55,000 sq. ft. of commercial/retail at grade. Parking for 800 vehicles will be provided below grade. Project includes proposed alley vacation.

http://www.seattle.gov/dpd/LUIB/MapProject3007548.jpg

Ahh. Right across from 24-hour Fitness and the beautiful spacious One Palm Park.

I hope you're talking about the palm tree.

Ahh. Right across from 24-hour Fitness and the beautiful spacious One Palm Park.

Well good news is, I work in Metro Park North which means I will be looking directly down onto this site during construction. When is this project starting?

We have no knowledge of that. Only the fact that anything highrise appearing for its first DR notice averages maybe 15-18 months out if it goes forward without delay. (I don't know the minimum, but it's over a year.)

Two 36 stories apartment towers plus 55,000 sq.ft retail? That will be another twin towers? I wonder what retailers this development will attract... 55,000 sq.ft retail is pretty huge for its size.

New park across that site? I don't think it is good location. Maybe it will change once that area got redeveloped.

The "park" is the silly little bus stop with the one palm tree on it. Drive by and you'll get the joke!

The "park" is the silly little bus stop with the one palm tree on it. Drive by and you'll get the joke!

I was refering to Greyhound bus barn that is slated to get demolished and replace it with city park.

Had drinks with friends from Microsoft last night. Part of the ramping up of the Seattle presence is in response to the upcoming 520 bridge construction. Rather than having workers trekking back and forth across the Lake as they do now, they will have work places on either side.

What a nice company!

I just learned today that Microsoft already has a campus in Issaquah when we took a detour around a road construction...and Boeing has one in Issaquah too.

We have no knowledge of that. Only the fact that anything highrise appearing for its first DR notice averages maybe 15-18 months out if it goes forward without delay. (I don't know the minimum, but it's over a year.)


This is old news, Lexas went out to raise capital of $24M to buy the 7 lots which were all under contract at the time and were paying extensions on most of the lots......If I recall correctly, Lexas was looking for an 18 month term interim loan....in their package I believe that they stated construction will not start until 2009 and the project will take 30 months to build....ground floor retail as proposed will include a wlagreens and a starbucks as of right now......

I forgot about that.

BTW, Seattle got ANOTHER massive donation according to the PI: $36,500,000 to the UW Business School, to be renamed the Michael G. Foster School of Business.

As I commented below the PI article, this time we live in is truly remarkable -- massive donations one after another. Large donations are helping drive Seattle up a notch, paying to improve a lot of our institutions, and buying a lot of new toys for Seattle as well.

Remember when a $10,000,000 donation used to mean a headline?

BTW, Seattle got ANOTHER massive donation according to the PI: $36,500,000 to the UW Business School, to be renamed the Michael G. Foster School of Business.

As I commented below the PI article, this time we live in is truly remarkable -- massive donations one after another. Large donations are helping drive Seattle up a notch, paying to improve a lot of our institutions, and buying a lot of new toys for Seattle as well.

Remember when a $10,000,000 donation used to mean a headline?

Rich people like it here :D

Had drinks with friends from Microsoft last night. Part of the ramping up of the Seattle presence is in response to the upcoming 520 bridge construction. Rather than having workers trekking back and forth across the Lake as they do now, they will have work places on either side.

What a nice company!

Too bad they couldn't have put their headquarters in a downtown office tower in the first place. It just makes more people have to commute long distances having the campus in some far-flung suburb.

I just learned today that Microsoft already has a campus in Issaquah when we took a detour around a road construction...and Boeing has one in Issaquah too.

My great grandmother and grandfather went to Issaquah to die. Is this where all the computer people have fun now? Good gracious. I thought it the most boring and inane exurb that ever scarred the face of the earth. No offence to anyone who lives there. (I used to live there too.)

As far as I know the Cuff will stay but the new condo will get built behind it. They are going to tear down the old furniture building on 12th. I will do some more checking to see if they didnt buy the whole building. But yes there will be development in that area..

If the Cuff stays, it will be interesting to see how they are going to manage the back patio and outdoor bar with out getting noise complaints.

And the "dog run", where patrons have traditionally engaged in illicit sex. Yum yum!

Yay for leather daddies!!!

Thanks for the info. What used to be on that site? When I view it on Google Earth there appears to be a lowrise biulding with a interesting dome-like roof. When I tried to get a closer look at it using the Birds Eye View feature on Live, the building is gone and replaced with a parking lot.

That would be Teatro Zinzanni, I believe, the European Cirque. I think they're relocating to a site near the Seattle PI Building along Myrtle Edwards Park. I may be wrong about that though.

The new Teatro Zinzanni is under construction at Mercer, Third N, & Roy, in what used to be a parking lot. They're bringing a team from eastern Europe to erect the antique tent.

Construction crane for the UW Medical Expansion came down today. Three new buildings in SLU. Nice way to cover the ugly former Puget Energy (?) building that renovated a few years back.

Also, I noticed the building at Howell and Terry was fenced off. May have been for sometime and not noticed. This is another ugly 80s building that will be replaced, but with what I forget.

My great grandmother and grandfather went to Issaquah to die. Is this where all the computer people have fun now? Good gracious. I thought it the most boring and inane exurb that ever scarred the face of the earth. No offence to anyone who lives there. (I used to live there too.)

Hey takes away some traffic, why not? :banana:

My great grandmother and grandfather went to Issaquah to die. Is this where all the computer people have fun now? Good gracious. I thought it the most boring and inane exurb that ever scarred the face of the earth. No offence to anyone who lives there. (I used to live there too.)
Front Street through downtown Issaquah is kinda nice.

Yes I live there.

But otherwise, what do you expect from a suburb? *shrugs*

Front Street through downtown Issaquah is kinda nice.

Yes I live there.

But otherwise, what do you expect from a suburb? *shrugs*

Ya know Frontstreet is a nice little street. It kind of reminds me of the old towns from movies about the wild west lol

Triple X Root Beer is my favorite thing about Issaquah. It is purdy out there.

Triple X Root Beer is my favorite thing about Issaquah. It is purdy out there.

I ate a traffic ticket :lol: Is there only one? Or are there chain stores in Seattle as well?

^It used to be a national chain, but the Issaquah location is the only one left. I think that's what I usually order. I can't remember, the menu is so blinding. Okay, now we're off topic, my apologies, let's get back to you know what..... Microsoft's expanding presence in Seattle.

I went up the Space Needle today and noticed two new cranes. Taylor 28, as someone already pointed out, plus one at that teardown by the Queen Anne overlook. No crane yet at Equinox.

Someone might want to visit Third & Denny and look east. If the wind is right, you'll see five cranes spanning Denny in less than a mile. (someone must not be weathervaning!)

Including a couple unmanned cranes, I believe we're up to I think 28 between LQA, SLU, Pike/Pine, First Hill, and the ID, in other words Greater Downtown. That's got to be a modern-day record.

I went up the Space Needle today and noticed two new cranes. Taylor 28, as someone already pointed out, plus one at that teardown by the Queen Anne overlook. No crane yet at Equinox.

Someone might want to visit Third & Denny and look east. If the wind is right, you'll see five cranes spanning Denny in less than a mile. (someone must not be weathervaning!)

Including a couple unmanned cranes, I believe we're up to I think 28 between LQA, SLU, Pike/Pine, First Hill, and the ID, in other words Greater Downtown. That's got to be a modern-day record.

Isn't there something like 60 cranes around the Seattle Area (including Bellevue)?

Speaking of Microsoft:

http://www.komotv.com/news/microsoft/9617712.html

Three new offices in Seattle planned.

We are experiencing huge high rise boom in Seattle metro area lately... Compare Seattle metro area in the 80s and present day... We got more high rise construction than we did in the 80s?

We are experiencing huge high rise boom in Seattle metro area lately... Compare Seattle metro area in the 80s and present day... We got more high rise construction than we did in the 80s?
There are probably more cranes in Seattle right now than there were in the late 80's, but the towers they were building back then were bigger.

When I moved to Seattle in August '88, they had recently finished the Washington Mutual Tower, they were *just* finishing Westlake Center, plus they were building the US Bank building, and in 89-91 I watched them build both 2 Union Square and, a bit later, the Gateway Tower.

Ah, those were the days. ;)

There are probably more cranes in Seattle right now than there were in the late 80's, but the towers they were building back then were bigger.

True. Let's hope one of these days, we will see bigger towers! :)


When I moved to Seattle in August '88, they had recently finished the Washington Mutual Tower, they were *just* finishing Westlake Center, plus they were building the US Bank building, and in 89-91 I watched them build both 2 Union Square and, a bit later, the Gateway Tower.

Ah, those were the days. ;)

You're so lucky that you gotta to see some amazing buildings while they were getting built!

There are probably more cranes in Seattle right now than there were in the late 80's, but the towers they were building back then were bigger.

When I moved to Seattle in August '88, they had recently finished the Washington Mutual Tower, they were *just* finishing Westlake Center, plus they were building the US Bank building, and in 89-91 I watched them build both 2 Union Square and, a bit later, the Gateway Tower.

Ah, those were the days. ;)

Don't forget the convention center and the bus tunnel at roughly the same time. We built tons of big-ticket stuff in a short time. These two projects were extremely disruptive, and caused the "little beirut" feeling for a few years. That, probably more than tall buildings themselves, caused the backlash against development in the form of the CAP reduction of zoning heights and square footage caps. We also had our second big downtown housing boom in that period -- particularly the emergence of Belltown as a residential area.

^
Oh yeah that's right. I remember in 1989 I had an internship with the City of Seattle and 3rd Ave was being all ripped up for construction of the bus tunnel.

For some reason I don't quite remember the convention center. Maybe they finished it just before I got here?

And of course I remember them widening I-90. Especially memorable was the Thanksgiving Day storm in 1990 which made part of the old floating bridge sink. ;) At that particular time I had an internship with the City of Kirkland and had to commute over the 520 bridge to get to work, and for about a week or so after the I-90 bridge sank, the traffic on 520 was just unbelievable!

Damn I can't believe that's already 17 years ago! How time flies. :(

The convention center might have been more like 1988. I guess a noob like you wouldn't remember that. You're lucky I like newcomers otherwise I'd say __ ____, __ ____ ____ ___ ____!

The convention center might have been more like 1988. I guess a noob like you wouldn't remember that.
Yup, it was finished just before I moved here:
http://www.wsctc.com/about_us/history.aspx
^
The Center’s first scheduled event took place on June 18, 1988.
^
That was 2 months before I got here.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003875559_skinnybuildings09.html

Seattle buildings going tall for the middle class

By Amy Martinez
Seattle Times business reporter

Developers might soon have to provide more apartments and condominiums that moderate-wage workers can afford if they want to put up taller residential buildings near downtown Seattle.

Mayor Greg Nickels is considering a proposal to raise height limits on residential buildings in the Interbay, South Lake Union and South Downtown neighborhoods — on the condition that developers create some units for people who make too much money to qualify for government-subsidized housing, but not enough to buy one of the pricey condominiums going up downtown.

The idea is to ensure a "stock of housing for the middle class," said Deputy Mayor Tim Ceis. Although he expects some resistance from developers, he predicts they'll ultimately go along. "We have a pretty progressive development community, and I think we'll work this out with them soon," Ceis said.

The proposal follows what officials term a good start to a similar trade-off offered in downtown itself. (See adjacent story.)

City planners said they'll begin with the Interbay neighborhood around Dravus Street. The industrial and commercial area, which is bounded by BN Railroad tracks, the Emerson Street overpass, 15th Avenue West and the Interbay golf course, could see residential building-height limits raised from 40 to 125 feet.

Diane Sugimura, director of the Planning and Development Department, said a formal proposal for Interbay's Dravus area is likely to go before the City Council this year, followed by proposals for South Downtown and South Lake Union next year.

Developers would be able to qualify for increased height limits by setting aside some units for moderate-wage workers, paying others to build the units nearby, or donating land for developments with moderate-wage workers in mind, said Office of Housing Director Adrienne Quinn.

"The goal is that we actually get the housing built, not that developers write a check," she said. "We want to make sure our city is a place where all people can live, and right now, portions of the middle class are being priced out of the market."

The Mayor's Office appears intent on taking a slightly different approach from last year, when it made new height limits downtown contingent on developers paying into an affordable-housing fund for low-income people. Now it says it wants developers to directly provide housing for middle-income people in exchange for being allowed to build to new heights.

"We do pretty well for low-income housing. Where we haven't been effective is the working-family-level housing opportunities," Ceis said.

Over the past two decades, various city programs have produced nearly 10,000 homes for low-income people, according to the Office of Housing.

In the year since the new downtown height limits took effect, two residential projects being built under those rules have committed to pay the city $2.3 million to be used for low-income housing.

Another project promises to build $1.5 million worth of low-income housing. The total of $3.8 million is supposed to pay for construction of 76 low-income-housing units, Quinn said.

Only individuals earning just under $42,000, which is 80 percent of the median annual income, qualify for housing subsidized by the city, Quinn said.

But individuals making up to $64,000, such as teachers, firefighters and nurses, also find themselves priced out of Seattle, she said. For new condos in Seattle, the median price — meaning half cost more, half less — is above $350,000, requiring an annual income of more than $74,000, according to the Office of Housing.

With developers taking a more active role and providing the housing themselves, she said, homeownership opportunities could open up to people making between 80 and 120 percent of the median.

Carla Okigwe, executive director of the Housing Development Consortium in Seattle, which represents not-for-profit home developers, said something needs to be done for moderate-wage workers.

"The programs we've historically had are focused on people who are pretty low-income, and there's been a little bit of assistance for first-time homebuyers, but there traditionally has not been anything for the next rung up," she said. "Downtown has a number of developments for low-income people and luxury condominiums right nearby, and nothing in between."

But Garrett Huffman, a government-affairs manager with the Master Builders Association of King and Snohomish Counties, said cities elsewhere have tried to encourage development of affordable housing with disappointing results. Developers typically pass the costs of providing affordable housing onto other buyers, he said, driving up prices for all but a select few.

Huffman argues that Seattle's affordable-housing crunch could be solved with fewer, not more, restrictions, which in turn would stimulate development and bring supply in line with demand.

"You have to put more units on the market, so there's not so much competition for each unit," he said.

In cities with regulations similar to what Seattle is considering, tensions have arisen between buyers of market-rate units and residents of considerably less means in the same buildings, he said.

Clete Casper, managing director of CarrAmerica, which owns about five acres with the potential for up to 1 million square feet of new buildings in South Lake Union, said he's "open to the possibility" of providing housing for moderate-wage workers. "We want to listen to the viewpoints and create a structure that actually results in a long-term, intelligent plan," he said.

Jeff Thompson, a local real-estate investor and founding member of the Interbay Neighborhood Association, said the Dravus area is a "perfect place" for moderately priced housing. But he's not sure that requiring developers to provide the housing in exchange for putting up taller buildings would have the intended result. Such requirements tend to add to development costs, he said.

"We're not trying to reach the poorest or the richest. We're trying to hit the middle," he said. "But if we make it cost more, how do we do that?"

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003875559_skinnybuildings09.html

That article lists a project at 901 Lenora Street. Anyone ever hear of a project there? Might be another new one.

Maybe I just missed seeing mhays at the Space Needle yesterday evening. I saw that the Needle offers a $99 annual pass - I wondered if mhays has one.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h17/seasun_01/20070908needlesouth.jpg

In case you haven't seen the current expansion of the Adobe campus in Fremont. I don't know if Adobe will occupy the new space but that's what I call the campus.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h17/seasun_01/20070902adobecampus.jpg

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003875559_skinnybuildings09.html

interbay is primed for some reasonably high residential development. i almost wish they would make it a bit higher

Whoa! 2301 6th Ave. 646ft

Whoa! 2301 6th Ave. 646ft

That's 646 units.

Maybe I just missed seeing mhays at the Space Needle yesterday evening. I saw that the Needle offers a $99 annual pass - I wondered if mhays has one.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h17/seasun_01/20070908needlesouth.jpg

Not quite, though I'd certainly save given the frequency I go up!

That's 646 units.

Oh dane I was hoping for something good...:lol:

Yesterday I saw a tall tower crane at Upper Queen Anne from Lower Queen Anne... What are they building?

High end condos on Highland, just across from the park.

In today's DJC it reported that Martin Selig is starting the 18 story Fifth & Yesler building on spec. I was really disappointed with the design. The first rendering released 5 or 6 years ago was really fantastic. Now it looks like a stretched up version of a 4 story corporate office park building.

http://www.djc.com/

In today's DJC it reported that Martin Selig is starting the 18 story Fifth & Yesler building on spec. I was really disappointed with the design. The first rendering released 5 or 6 years ago was really fantastic. Now it looks like a stretched up version of a 4 story corporate office park building.

http://www.djc.com/

In my opinion, it looks great from the front. It looks horrible from the side. I guess I'm just not a fan of non-modern non-glassy stuff. lol

Whoa! 2301 6th Ave. 646ft

OMG! Thats 2 big towers pretty far north of downtown:cheers1:

again thats 646 units, in i believe two 24 floor towers. still though westedge, belltown, denny triangle and the theatre district are becoming a very nice dense residential area

I'm really looking forward to more twin towers in the area.:ohno:
With the cost of everything going up daily, it doesn't surprise me that 5th and Yesler is so simple. Martin Selig would not want to spend foolishly. That damn idiot!:lol:

Two 40-story towers, not 24. I hope they get built.

what's this one then
It's two 24-story apartments on the west side of 6th between Lenora and Blanchard, and we're the contractor.

^^^uh oh that looks like perjury to me!!

2301 6th

http://aycu33.webshots.com/image/27232/2003982320526219048_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2003982320526219048)

Two separate projects then?

The 2301 project is, coincidentally, located on the 2300 block, which is not at Lenora.

^^ Do you have rendering for two 24 stories buildings like you mentioned?

Gene Juarez plans new U Village store in 2008
Salon and spa also expected on Eastside, Renton area
By CRAIG HARRIS
P-I REPORTER

Gene Juarez Salons & Spas said Monday that it would open a new store in University Village by next summer, and two additional locations are in the works by 2009.

"We have a lot more demand than we are accommodating," said Janet Denyer, the Bellevue-based company's chief executive. "We want to take the lid off some of that pressure. U Village center is target-rich for a Gene Juarez, and the customers will benefit from an upscale salon and spa."

The company plans to break ground on the University Village site, near Crate & Barrel, in February with an opening slated for August.

With this and H&M up in the same area, I'm trying to figure out where exactly these are going. H&M is supposed to be over on the end I thought. Sounds like this is going there too?

That makes the most sense. I was wondering where it'd go. I was wondering about the parking lot directly in front of Crate & Barrell, but it makes more sense to combine it with H&M. I wonder how SpaScotta and InSpa (tenants at the village) feel about this.

I think there is a Home Depot there that likely will be eliminated.

hmm renton? im thinking the landing is a probable bet.

I think there is a Home Depot there that likely will be eliminated.
Are you thinking of the Office Depot? I'm pretty sure that's not owned by the U-Village but maybe they've bought it. The U-Village should have bought the darn Shucks Auto parts store on 45th Street a long time ago to improve the Village.

Are you thinking of the Office Depot? I'm pretty sure that's not owned by the U-Village but maybe they've bought it. The U-Village should have bought the darn Shucks Auto parts store on 45th Street a long time ago to improve the Village.
Yes that's what I meant. Oops!

Gene Juarez plans new U Village store in 2008
Salon and spa also expected on Eastside, Renton area
By CRAIG HARRIS
P-I REPORTER

[FONT="Georgia"]Gene Juarez Salons & Spas said Monday that it would open a new store in University Village by next summer, and two additional locations are in the works by 2009.

"We have a lot more demand than we are accommodating," said Janet Denyer, the Bellevue-based company's chief executive. "We want to take the lid off some of that pressure. U Village center is target-rich for a Gene Juarez, and the customers will benefit from an upscale salon and spa."




thats kinda too bad, i wish they would move into the recently vacated tubs on 45th. it will be nice to have a spa in the area again though.

The U District has MANY issues to resolve before Gene Juarez sees the neighborhood as a fit for their clientele.

It just doesn't scream 'upscale' or 'spend the afternoon here.'

The U District is densifying at a decent pace. In a few years it should be considerably better -- not necessarily as a retail center for people to drive to, but with a lot more clientele living or working right there. And it'll take another jump when light rail shows up.

Speaking of which, I noticed a large parcel of land on 25th ave NE just north of U-village that had been cleared of many old houses and apartment buildings. Anyone know whats going in there?

Update:
Ah, speak of the Devil:
http://web1.seattle.gov/dpd/luib/Notice.aspx?BID=69&NID=1950&S=Y&SSD=1/1/1980&SED=1/1/1980&SPR=&SAR=&SAD=25th%20ave%20NE&SP=True&SD=True&SH=True&SO=True

uvillage not really udistrict

Yesterday, I saw Greg's Japanese Auto Shop on Denny is closed and is about to get razed soon.

Yesterday, I saw Greg's Japanese Auto Shop on Denny is closed and is about to get razed soon.

is that the one near highway 99? Theres 2 of those auto repair shops on the same corridor. what project is it?

is that the one near highway 99? Theres 2 of those auto repair shops on the same corridor. what project is it?

The one on Denny and Wall(I think?). I saw the rendering sign that was stood on that site for long time but it gone now. Its look like 6 to 9 stories building. I am sure someone here knows more about this project than I do.

The one on Denny and Wall(I think?). I saw the rendering sign that was stood on that site for long time but it gone now. Its look like 6 to 9 stories building. I am sure someone here knows more about this project than I do.

ahhh ok, thanks!

^^gregs you can see from I-5, just after you pass stewart. I noticed the area around Stewart and Denny has a lot of bare lots and single story buildings. Ripe for some new development

^^gregs you can see from I-5, just after you pass stewart. I noticed the area around Stewart and Denny has a lot of bare lots and single story buildings. Ripe for some new development

Yup, that corridor is booming with lowrises, midrises and a few highrises. :D

They're talking about a different Gregs. Not the one by I-5 I think.

They're talking about a different Gregs. Not the one by I-5 I think.

Yes, I know that. I know there are 2 of them on the same Denny St. Corridor. One on Stewart and Denny and other on Denny and Wall st. near SR 99. I believe it's the one near SR 99.

The U District has MANY issues to resolve before Gene Juarez sees the neighborhood as a fit for their clientele.

It just doesn't scream 'upscale' or 'spend the afternoon here.'

I'm not sure if this was already covered, but U Village is not the University District - it nearly abuts Laurelhurst, which is certainly upscale. The UW separates the U-District with U Village (it's to the east), and that shopping center is *all* "drive here and spend the afternoon" (and people do!).

In case you haven't seen the current expansion of the Adobe campus in Fremont. I don't know if Adobe will occupy the new space but that's what I call the campus.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h17/seasun_01/20070902adobecampus.jpg

That should be Google occupying the new space, according to the PI article I read this morning about MS putting some more people in SLU - it was mentioned toward the bottom.

Hey takes away some traffic, why not? :banana:

I think overall it does the opposite, and the infrastructure costs more per user. Where do you suppose their food and Chinese crap comes from?

So I've always wondered, what are the advantages and disadvantages of mixed use complexes and what are the advantages and disadvantages of "organized zoning?" (as in residential all here, commercial all there, industrial all down there) other than being able to build big houses with lots of land and parks.

And nice picture Sequoia, how did you take that with a pda camera? It looks like you took two pictures and put them together, is that right?

Organized zoning generates more traffic and stifles innovation. We have zoning because people were being choked to death with pollution and bothered by trucks - but now that we can measure those things, we don't need zoning in the urban core, we just need restrictions on how loud, dirty (and maybe tall) things can be, and requirements for pedestrians (including ground floor interesting things for peds to do, like shop and eat).

Mixed use doesn't take that many trips away if you look at a single building, but when you have fifty of them, it really does. It encourages health because people walk and bike to those locations, and if you're not *too* dense and don't grow *too* quickly (it's too late for that for now) you can have neighborhood identity much more easily. You interact with people more on a daily basis and get to know your shopkeepers, too - not at first, because only the big chains can generally afford new construction, but 20 years later you have buildings that are high enough density they aren't cost-effective to replace, and lower rents for more interesting businesses. That interaction helps people be tolerant - why do you suppose the cities are where all the innovation happens? San Jose is only there because of San Francisco, and Bellevue and Redmond are only there because of Seattle. Those startups MS buys are in Pioneer Square and Georgetown to begin with.

What it comes down to is, zoning is bad, it was a knee-jerk reaction to a complex problem - urban growth boundaries are good, density is good. These issues won't fix themselves until energy gets too expensive to drive 20 miles to work, though.

Oh wow that's smart! In fact that's really smart. So basically they're sharing the same piece of land for housing and transportation. But I've always wondered, why doesn't ST place more bus stops around the suburbs and neighborhoods. Ya know a bus stop inside/near a neighborhood that takes you to a Park and Ride and you can choose your commute route there...

Because low density isn't cost effective for buses, nor should we support it, as it makes our problems much, much worse. It supports itself plenty - we have all these single people and dual-income no-kids couples in 2500 sqft houses in Sammamish who would never be out there if Seattle's growth hadn't been stifled for 30 years. They're filling in the condo complexes now.

Zoning is good when it allows a broad range of appropriate uses, mixture of uses, and high-enough densities, and when it forbids bad stuff like drive-throughs and surface parking. Without zoning you'd get Houston.

And yes, we do need mixture of uses. That's how you build a high levels of pedestrian commuters, constantly-active neighborhoods, and so on.

If anyone has a scanner, I believe today's Seattle Times' Downtown Living section had what is a new rendering for Stewart and Minor. This is the building with the proposed 18ft ceilings, and optional loft levels.

^ I saw that, and i'm sure its the same render just a different color.

http://www.urbancondominiums.com/v7/images/tn/stewartminor.jpg
I noticed the rendering in the paper this morning and can only find the tiny version online. Whoever created the rendering and inserted it into the photo needs some serious help on how to create a perspective view. Decent perspective views should have parallel lines that converge to a "vanishing point" in perspective. In this rendering the photo background is normal - the sidewalk and parapet lines of one of Metropolitan Park buildings converge to the same point on the horizon - but the unbuilt building looks like it was rendered as an axonometric view. The parapet line at roof level still points upward instead of pointing down to the horizon line. Kind of amateurish. Otherwise a very interesting project. The high floors give it a very distinctive selling point.

If I see one more rendering with an axonometric view, someone's getting a firmly worded letter from me!

I passed Greg's Japanese Auto shop again today. They took the billboard down. They're getting ready to demolish that station soon. I also noticed breaking ground behind Shell/Starbucks station. What are they building?

Stewart & Minor rendering is still not impressive. I hope they will re-design it to make it more attractive. I don't really like two separate glass facades on lower and upper floors.

http://www.urbancondominiums.com/v7/images/tn/stewartminor.jpg
I noticed the rendering in the paper this morning and can only find the tiny version online. Whoever created the rendering and inserted it into the photo needs some serious help on how to create a perspective view. Decent perspective views should have parallel lines that converge to a "vanishing point" in perspective. In this rendering the photo background is normal - the sidewalk and parapet lines of one of Metropolitan Park buildings converge to the same point on the horizon - but the unbuilt building looks like it was rendered as an axonometric view. The parapet line at roof level still points upward instead of pointing down to the horizon line. Kind of amateurish. Otherwise a very interesting project. The high floors give it a very distinctive selling point.

Ever since I saw that rendering, I thought the same things. And yes Crazy that thing is not impressive at all. Once this one is built we will all have to come up with a good "name" for it.

Zoning is good when it allows a broad range of appropriate uses, mixture of uses, and high-enough densities, and when it forbids bad stuff like drive-throughs and surface parking. Without zoning you'd get Houston.

And yes, we do need mixture of uses. That's how you build a high levels of pedestrian commuters, constantly-active neighborhoods, and so on.

Houston's issues really have nothing to do with their lack of zoning. They have to do with their imbalance in transportation infrastructure investment. A lot of people like to toss Houston out as a "reason" for having zoning, but you can't easily point to any issues in Houston and say "This wouldn't have occurred if they had zoning" - not without taking into account other factors.

Houston is flat. There are no natural features to create neighborhood identity or to concentrate density. The Greater Seattle area is defined by a set of valleys and hills that channel development naturally. Zoning won't change that. Paris wasn't zoned. London wasn't zoned. They just weren't building huge highways out to the edges of their territory, either.

If I see one more rendering with an axonometric view, someone's getting a firmly worded letter from me!

Maybe that'd give them some perspective!

Houston's issues really have nothing to do with their lack of zoning. They have to do with their imbalance in transportation infrastructure investment. A lot of people like to toss Houston out as a "reason" for having zoning, but you can't easily point to any issues in Houston and say "This wouldn't have occurred if they had zoning" - not without taking into account other factors.

Houston is flat. There are no natural features to create neighborhood identity or to concentrate density. The Greater Seattle area is defined by a set of valleys and hills that channel development naturally. Zoning won't change that. Paris wasn't zoned. London wasn't zoned. They just weren't building huge highways out to the edges of their territory, either.

This has been discussed quite a bit elsewhere. Let's just say I don't agree with you about zoning. Your second paragraph has good points, but zoning creates dynamics and standards you're not accounting for.

This has been discussed quite a bit elsewhere. Let's just say I don't agree with you about zoning. Your second paragraph has good points, but zoning creates dynamics and standards you're not accounting for.

We can agree to disagree, for now - I think those dynamics and standards are better tackled on a case by case basis, more through individual neighborhood power kept balanced with builder power than through blanket standardization.

^^ I say keep going. You both seem to know what you are talking about and this forum is for discussions such as these. Its great for people like me who know almost nothing regarding this subject. This is exactly what I like to read about when I come to SSC & SSP

Keep it cool but keep it going :cheers1:

For those of you that have to drive between Seattle and Portland, check this out: http://www.i-5slog.com/ be sure to click on all the videos.

For those of you that have to drive between Seattle and Portland, check this out: http://www.i-5slog.com/ be sure to click on all the videos.

"Have to"? I take the train.

I didn't see this discussed here, but perhaps I just missed it. I walked past 7th and Westlake this weekend, and noticed that the Land Use Action sign had been updated. What was planned to be a 32-story mixed office/residential has morphed into a 45-story version of the same. Here is the history:

http://web1.seattle.gov/DPD/permitstatus/default.aspx?a=2017,,7TH,AVE,

Has anyone heard anything else about this? I am guessing the design will have changed considerably, if not completely. The extra height is surely a nice change!

^ Good news. I hope it looks better then before.

The fence is up at Hyatt Place, 6th N & Denny. 158 hotel suites in an 8-story building and 56 residential units in a 6-story building.

Assuming this starts, and even if it doesn't, the far side of Denny is undergoing a major transition clear to Mirabella! Six projects in probably 3/4 of a mile, of which three blocks doesn't count because it's park. (I'm counting Aurora & John though it's about 100' off Denny.)

I didn't see this discussed here, but perhaps I just missed it. I walked past 7th and Westlake this weekend, and noticed that the Land Use Action sign had been updated. What was planned to be a 32-story mixed office/residential has morphed into a 45-story version of the same. Here is the history:

http://web1.seattle.gov/DPD/permitstatus/default.aspx?a=2017,,7TH,AVE,

Has anyone heard anything else about this? I am guessing the design will have changed considerably, if not completely. The extra height is surely a nice change!

Wow. Is Clise still going to build this project or did they apply for the MUP to make their properties even more attractive?

I always thought that building above Convention Place Station would be a great idea...and after browsing the Metro site, it looks like they already thought about it! http://www.metrokc.gov/kcdot/tod/convention_place.stm It looks like it's way into the future only after light rail expands and takes over the transit tunnel completely.

As far as Convention Place Station air-rights go, I'd think they could develop the space today if they wanted to. Waiting for the buses to go away means waiting what - 10 years? Letting buses enter and exit the site while a building is above seems do-able.
Buses in the tunnel can be a pain at times but as someone who's ridden the 70 routes over the years it's pretty damn cool to be able to take the same transit vehicle from the tunnel to distant neighborhoods without a transfer.

I am nearly certain they've said that the convention place station would eventually be built over. I think once the Link tunnel goes up to the U-District gets built the convention place station will become obsolete.

It might be possible that they will demolish Convention Place station and convert it into a few highrises to replace it. I'm not sure if buses will continue to use the tunnel, even after light rail runs in 2009. If they get rid of Convention Place station, how will the buses enter and exit the tunnel?

I also have heard that once light rail gets built out to the eastside, the bus tunnel will only be used for light rail. It has something to do with the close headways between trains coming into the tunnel from points east, north and south. I remember reading something about it on the Sound Transit website, I'll try to find it.

I also have heard that once light rail gets built out to the eastside, the bus tunnel will only be used for light rail. It has something to do with the close headways between trains coming into the tunnel from points east, north and south. I remember reading something about it on the Sound Transit website, I'll try to find it.

Yeah, that may be possible also. The trains coming every few minutes won't work well with a lot of buses running thru the tunnel.

With rail handling that many of the commuters, it's a good tradeoff. Particularly with Third now basically a bus mall. We've shown that Downtown can handle the whole bus system on the surface, even without rail.

In other news, Diane Sugimura, Seattle's Director of Planning in Development, wrote a great op ed piece in the current Arcade Magazine, using Melbourne to help generate examples of how to enliven Seattle streetscapes and make the city work better. I replied with a suggestion that Third, as a de facto bus mall, could be beautified and given wider sidewalks. She replied that something like that is being considered, and we ought to hear about it soon.

With rail handling that many of the commuters, it's a good tradeoff. Particularly with Third now basically a bus mall. We've shown that Downtown can handle the whole bus system on the surface, even without rail.

In other news, Diane Sugimura, Seattle's Director of Planning in Development, wrote a great op ed piece in the current Arcade Magazine, using Melbourne to help generate examples of how to enliven Seattle streetscapes and make the city work better. I replied with a suggestion that Third, as a de facto bus mall, could be beautified and given wider sidewalks. She replied that something like that is being considered, and we ought to hear about it soon.

The example that comes to mind for me is the 16th street mall in Denver. No cars are allowed period, the sidewalks are huge, and the busses are free and electric. At either end of the mall are 2 large bus stations. A "3rd Ave Mall" in Seattle wouldn't be a bad idea, don't you think?

We really do need it. A full-time bus mall would speed bus trips for more routes, and with street upgrades and retail improvements it would always be busy with pedestrians.

Denver's is different. I like the 16th Street Mall, but I don't like the concept of transfering onto a shuttle. Let the regular buses go through Downtown as they do here.

Ours can't be 100% bus, because some garages open to Third. But we can make them leave Third at the next intersection as we do now. And we can make it buses 24/7 rather than just at rush hours.

I also have heard that once light rail gets built out to the eastside, the bus tunnel will only be used for light rail. It has something to do with the close headways between trains coming into the tunnel from points east, north and south. I remember reading something about it on the Sound Transit website, I'll try to find it.

It may be before that. Once light rail headways go closer than 4 minutes, buses will probably be kicked out - I've been told that there has to be about a 2 minute headway between a clump of buses and a train, but I could be wrong.

Train frequency will eventually be as low as 2.4 minutes, according to the ST long range plan from 2006. That would include work not yet approved (extension to Everett and Issaquah), but could happen just with the existing system (and Sound Transit 2).

By the way: http://soundtransit2.com

We really do need it. A full-time bus mall would speed bus trips for more routes, and with street upgrades and retail improvements it would always be busy with pedestrians.

Denver's is different. I like the 16th Street Mall, but I don't like the concept of transfering onto a shuttle. Let the regular buses go through Downtown as they do here.

Ours can't be 100% bus, because some garages open to Third. But we can make them leave Third at the next intersection as we do now. And we can make it buses 24/7 rather than just at rush hours.

We can also require that new developments, if possible, don't exit onto Third. If the Post Office is ever rebuilt, that can open onto a side street instead, for instance (and good lord, that needs to be replaced). Nothing I can think of on Third is completely, er, land-locked between cross streets. Just fix the problem over time.

Hell, eventually you could probably drop a couple of the cross-streets under third for pure pedestrian crossings. I don't know if there's enough space between the top of the tunnel and the street overhead, but it's worth a look later.

3rd Ave is pretty frickin dead in terms of pedestrian life and I don't expect it to ever be a sidewalk cafe/retail street. Not that I mind the bus mall concept, I just think that a bus mall won't ever be an interesting place to walk/people watch. I think property owners/workers along 3rd probably find it a little annoying to barely be able to drive on 3rd but the good transit service probably outweighs any negatives.

If ST rail ever got to 2.4 minute headways I think that would only happen with very slow trains. (If trains were fast they hit the train waiting at the next station.) I've used probably a couple dozen urban rail systems around the world and that headway sounds very unrealistic. 4 or 5 minutes quite possible. 2.4 minutes? maybe in a computer simulation that assumes vehicles doors are outfitted with blades that just chop off passengers' arms that attempt to keep doors open and would otherwise delay trains. Also consider that there has to be a clear zone between trains going the same direction so that trains are never in the same sector in case of mechanical failure (or operator error). I have no idea how long closely spaced train position sensors along the Link route but imagine watching the trains on the control room displays and being absolutely positive that two trains are never too close together.

Also don't forget that ST Link is not grade seperated in the Rainier Valley so who knows what will happen with car/bike/pedestrian interactions.

I've seen two-minute headways in London.

Much of Third isn't very nice now. But parts are ok. Other parts will be redeveloped. In any case, I don't think it'll ever be a great street, just a functional bus mall that's also decent to walk down.