French high-speed train to break world record

PARIS, Dec 18, 2006 (AFP) - France's high-speed TGV train -- already the fastest in the world -- is to try to break its own record by hitting speeds above 540 kilometres (325 miles) per hour, its constructors said Monday.

One of the prides of French engineering, the superfast train a grande vitesse (TGV) set the current world rail record of 515.3 kilometres per hour, in test conditions, in 1990.

The new speed trial will be carried out in early April on the brand new TGV line connecting Paris to the eastern city of Strasbourg, which is set to open in June 2007.

According to the French engineering giant Alstom, which builds the TGV, the train is hoped to hit speeds of 550-570 kilometres per hour.

Currently, average travelling speeds for the TGV are around 300 kilometres per hour, but trains on the latest-generation Paris-Strasbourg line are to run slightly faster at 320 kilometres per hour.

Great story, but hardly relevant for Subways and Urban Transport... A thread has been started in Infrastructure and Mobility. :)

I smell that they want to compete with japanese Maglev and hit 600 km/h, just to show that new technology is obsolete since the old one is capable of reaching same speeds :)

It is just an experiment, not commercial speed...
:|

Technically it's urban to urban transport, or intercity rail.

Technically it's urban to urban transport, or intercity rail.

Exactly my point. I've asked in the past if we can have a Railways subforum but without any luck.

This is factually inaccurate, the fastest train in the world is of maglev technology posessed by Japan (the Yamanashi track, current record is 582km/h). TGV would still be fastest experimental test run for steel on steel though, even Shinkansen max out around just a little above 400, but they are looking at commercial operating speeds in excess of 350 with the latest models (Fastech, not yet in service although testing is mostly complete).

Exactly my point. I've asked in the past if we can have a Railways subforum but without any luck.

I'd support this. Trains are trains are trains :)

I smell that they want to compete with japanese Maglev and hit 600 km/h, just to show that new technology is obsolete since the old one is capable of reaching same speeds :)

The speed isn't maglev's best payoff though, unless in a vacuum, which isn't safe yet, but it would be faster than air travel if it were. Maglev outperforms because of its frictionless property, meaning dramatically less wear, meaning cheap cheap cheap to maintain.

Depends on how you defend rail-based transport. Some are loathe to call anything rail that is not wheel-rail. Some language heighten this distinction, in Spanish it is called "FERROcaril," mean "Iron rail."

I personally am inclined to not call maglev rail. Something else, but not rail. And don't ask me why, I know it is an artificial distinction.

Depends on how you defend rail-based transport. Some are loathe to call anything rail that is not wheel-rail. Some language heighten this distinction, in Spanish it is called "FERROcaril," mean "Iron rail."

I personally am inclined to not call maglev rail. Something else, but not rail. And don't ask me why, I know it is an artificial distinction.

Japanese is the same story, the characters for TETSUDOU mean Iron road as well, but the debate isn't on whether or not it is rail, it is the fact, an undeniable fact, that it is a train, the same word used in the original article (they said train, not rail), the companies managing these services are run like railway companies (or in Japan's case the same company, excluding Limino) and as far as I know, all language recognize maglev as a train, and that is the most important point, since trains are the best form of mass transportation of people over land. People should care less whether the train runs on rails or hovers on its guideways. That rubber-tire shit? It's considered a railway (it is certainly considered a subway when it is underground), right? But it isn't steel-on-steel either. It's a moot point, because a train is a train regardless of the technology applied, as long as car traffic doesn't share space with it (the biggest problem with tram systems)

I'd support this. Trains are trains are trains :)

Well I've asked again nicely:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=11017839

That rubber-tire shit? It's considered a railway (it is certainly considered a subway when it is underground), right? But it isn't steel-on-steel either. It's a moot point, because a train is a train regardless of the technology applied, as long as car traffic doesn't share space with it (the biggest problem with tram systems)

In reallity in France rubber tired trains run on rail and it is a steel-on-steel

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/Bogie-metro-Meteor-p1010692.jpg/800px-Bogie-metro-Meteor-p1010692.jpg

The German ICE trains once used hybrid rubber/steel wheels in order to achieve higher comfort and less noise. The inner hub of the wheel was made of steel, on it came a ring of rubber and then an outer ring of steel again. Unfortunately one of these hybrid wheels caused the Eschede accident and therefore ICEs now use conventional all steel wheels again.

http://rhein-zeitung.de/on/99/05/20/topnews/eschede4_.jpg http://danger-ahead.railfan.net/images/dispix/eschede9.jpg

It failed because the maintenance regime was not being adhered to (i.e. ultrasonic fracture testing wasn't being done properly), and while the design of the wheels may be partly to blame, that type operates on many trains all around the world with no problems.

Some picture of LGV (HSR) Mediterrannée between Valence and Marseille.

http://lgv2030.free.fr/pictures/valencetgv1.jpg
Valence's junction between LGV Rhone-Alpes and LGV Meditrranée.

http://lgv2030.free.fr/pictures/valencetgv6.jpg
Valence-TGV: platforms and passing tracks (350 km/h).

http://lgv2030.free.fr/pictures/lagardeadhemar1.jpg
La Garde Adhémar: LGV above A7 motorway and the double Bow-String.

http://lgv2030.free.fr/pictures/roquemaure3.jpg
Roquemaure: LGV Med along A9 motorway on the right side of the Rhône.

http://lgv2030.free.fr/pictures/lesanglesnord2.jpg
Les Angles: junction Paris-Marseille and Paris-Montpellier.

http://lgv2030.free.fr/pictures/lesanglessud1.jpg
Les Angles: the fabulous double bridge over the Rhône river.

http://lgv2030.free.fr/pictures/avignonsud3.jpg
Avignon South: LGV over motorway toll.

http://lgv2030.free.fr/pictures/avignonsud4.jpg
Avignon south: the old N7 and the LGV.

http://lgv2030.free.fr/pictures/vernegues5.jpg
Vernegues: a viaduc between two tunnels. Photograph missed the train...

http://lgv2030.free.fr/pictures/ventabren3.jpg
Ventabren: her majesty Ventabren's viaduct over RD10 and A8 motorway.

http://lgv2030.free.fr/pictures/ventabren6.jpg
Ventabren: just for your pleasure, a second picture of Ventabren's viaduct (remenber "Taxi").

Lot of other pictures at http://lgv2030.free.fr choose "Gallerie".

fantastic shots!

:drool:

Excellent photos! Thanks for posting them... :)

For a fantastic view of what the driver sees on a trip from Marseille to Paris by TGV (including the LGV Méditerranée) get yourself the following video or DVD: http://www.video125.co.uk/acatalog/Marseilles_to_Paris_DVD.html

The LGV Est, that will connect Paris to Strasbourg in the future, broke the former record of 515,3 km/h establied in 1990. With a new record established this morning *553 km/h*, SNCF and Alstom take advantage of such advertising for their companies but also give a rendez-vous : "See you in april !" SNCF and Alstom have the project to go to 570 km/h with their new technologies. Fans of high speed trains already trust that to go over 600 km/h is possible considering this morning record but president of Alstom temperates "we will not put in danger people working on our project, we will go as far as the technology can." Story to follow in next months.

Awesome news.

Wow! 553 km/hr is fast, indeed! That's probably even faster than the fastest Maglev (Japan's Maglev) in the world.

Btw, how does this compare to Japan's Fastech?

A Japan maglev train reached 581 km/h.

Anyway maglev can reach these speeds (or little lower) in normal service, while TGV can't.

But It is very fast for a conventional train.
Indeed Maglev have no friction, It can run faster with less danger.

Good record, but it is an experiment, not top speed for standard TGV!
;)

the japanese maglev mlx-01 still holds the record at 581,0 km/h
french tgv-est is second with 553 km/h (515,3 km/h was old record)
third comes germany's transrapid at 501,0 km/h

But Maglev and Transrapid are not conventionnal trains ... so it has absolutely no sense to compare them with the tgv.

A Japan maglev train reached 581 km/h.

Anyway maglev can reach these speeds (or little lower) in normal service, while TGV can't.

Wrong, the maglev is run at approx 400 on commercial use, and the one that reached 581km is a unique model used on an experiment railway in Japan, not on a real commercial railway. Moreover, the Maglev has no wheel, it competes in a different category.
Accept it man, just accept.

Good record, but it is an experiment, not top speed for standard TGV!
;)

So what? Experiment is what makes things improve and move forward. Stop minimizing things just because it's not your country's deed.

But Maglev and Transrapid are not conventionnal trains ... so it has absolutely no sense to compare them with the tgv.

It does, in the sense that they are all rail transport. It's a broader category, and may affect someone's decision to build one type of rail system over another.

Well, if the TGV go over 581 km/h in april, this debate will be closed :crazy2:

But well, it's already nice to see how advanced is Alstom technology in conventionnal trains, more quick that a tilting train and if the record of the maglev is broke, more quick that a supposed advanced technology in railway, even if commercial trains are faster with transrapid technology.

This record in still unofficial: it was only a training session.
Official record will occurs soon.

Making good speed mesurement is not so easy...

It does, in the sense that they are all rail transport. It's a broader category, and may affect someone's decision to build one type of rail system over another.

It's like comparing a dragster, a formula one, and a Ferrari. The Ferrari is a piece of shit compared to the two others, but if you have a little good sense...
Let's talk about that in april.

By the way, SNCF (French railway) is currently testing a 360km/h commercial speed, expected for 2012/2015.

So what? Experiment is what makes things improve and move forward. Stop minimizing things just because it's not your country's deed.
I am not minimizing anything!
:nono:
My country has got the high speed record in trains with a diesel locomotive. So?
;)

Very nice images!
:drool:
Merci!!
:wink2:

French TGV sets new speed record
http://english.people.com.cn/200702/15/eng20070215_350206.html

The high-speed train known as TGV has set a new speed record in rail transport by reaching 553 km/h, thus breaking the earlier record of 515.3 km/h set in 1990, French daily Le Parisien reported on Wednesday.

According to the daily, the record was set Tuesday afternoon at the small town of Passavant-en-Arrogne, 190 km from Paris and 50 km east of Chalon-en-Champagne.

The record was set by a specially designed train made up of two locomotives and three railcars driving on the railway of the future East TGV linking Paris and Strasbourg in eastern France.

Officials of the French company Alstom Transport which manufactures the TGV had indicated in December 2006 that their objective in 2007 was to attain the speed of between "550 to 570 km/h."

They added that an "official" attempt is planned to take place "most likely at the beginning of April."

Wrong, the maglev is run at approx 400 on commercial use, and the one that reached 581km is a unique model used on an experiment railway in Japan, not on a real commercial railway. Moreover, the Maglev has no wheel, it competes in a different category.
Accept it man, just accept.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transrapid):
Transrapid is a German monorail system using magnetic levitation. Based on a patent from 1934, planning of an actual Transrapid system started in 1969. The test facility for the system in Emsland, Germany was completed in 1987, and on the 17th June 1993 the Transrapid TR-07 vehicle reached a record-breaking speed of 450 kilometers per hour. Today the maximum design speed has exceeded the 500 km/h (310 mph) mark and currently stands at about 550 km/h, with the fastest (and currently the only operational) scheduled passenger service reaching 430 km/h between Longyang Road station and Pudong International Airport in Shanghai, China. The system is developed and marketed by Transrapid International, a joint venture of the German companies Siemens AG and ThyssenKrupp.

I am not minimizing anything!
:nono:
My country has got the high speed record in trains with a diesel locomotive. So?
;)

Great. Good for Spain.
See, being proud of your country doesn't mean dissing the rest of the world, that is sheer nationalism and that stinks.

@karakuri. I was a bit like you before. I am still proud of TGV improvements and SCNF speed records, nevertheless I must admit that sncf services are just awefull.
Last year I took a Train from Madrid to BCN (not a talgo, it was a just a sort of commuter train with stops in zaragoza, tarragona ( actually that was the place where I was going). I was simply amazed by the quality of services in those types of trains. Seats are much more confortable, you have more space, TV screens in every wagoon, newspapers for free. Even TGV first class does not offer a third of what was proposed in these trains (and I'd better not compare it to our "Train corail" system (you know what I mean)).
Except for food, things were much better in those trains than in any other train of sncf cie.

Speed is something, quality and services are another. If sncf does not improve its services, it will face a huge problem when the EU railway market will be liberalised.

Here is AIX EN Provence TGV station:

http://grizzli.beat.free.fr/fer/tgv/tgvmed/aix02.jpg

http://grizzli.beat.free.fr/fer/tgv/tgvmed/aix01.jpg

http://www.scmf.com.fr/images/_hd/gare_tgv_aix-en-provence08.jpg

http://en.structurae.de/files/photos/1/arbois01.jpg


Here is Marseille St charles' station (terminus of the LGV Med)


http://tkfiles.storage.msn.com/x1pbglk-vqL4BtyxkOvxUfHyf7glibgATB_CR4BPOfkC-hHwYRR_F00kw0nrOEDVkSKEPJhwOVMzlgEcHAftH9MnNcZgXU6Rqk0Nnx8MZ88SVGJaM8Gzeuu-v2bB0b89GB4uEbCuDxIoyfW5ApTb7Su1DEcWHZM8__z


http://tkfiles.storage.msn.com/x1pbglk-vqL4BtyxkOvxUfHyf7glibgATB_CR4BPOfkC-jQJAea7rEBTMWE-BQWIT6fK2f_m0YL6WCJFialFPo0dxg9mr0K7XK5QY4FipQAIi9ulWlN2EFUNM1xL8hRz-v-DBm9oiMbXXwW9mwk9Kr9ExlXE_IBlcM0


http://tkfiles.storage.msn.com/x1pbglk-vqL4BtyxkOvxUfHyf7glibgATB_CR4BPOfkC-inlzjB4o3RkLLdeLbRoKe9E_c2fffmhb7RBk_4CaNDlJIlWyRd2CiTC_qBlXsZ_6zmxYqHa0KnQrME5_Dc0FLRsyF8BnbFMt67SdCqYm99Loteu5Y2eMcD


Extension of the station "Halle Honorat"

http://tkfiles.storage.msn.com/x1pbglk-vqL4BtyxkOvxUfHyf7glibgATB_CR4BPOfkC-jVjO_Ije1lXeQG1fMIe5hL2-Vfh9YzXCtzdprGaxFeyQa6PoodTILhPzxUlGg8d4oyThj1JWl3hYtvKYKefxSAaZHIXgljVwwq4o2yBcFfcYG-23BSy4tr


http://tkfiles.storage.msn.com/x1pbglk-vqL4BtyxkOvxUfHyf7glibgATB_CR4BPOfkC-jB_hXWU-_mXQalIV6Z39joZZL5PBtsr1ynTl7Rw_k4ax0haVPFh8d5yuq0XN5c0vIS58IkbbTVmFcavXZB8d_lJZb1G8QEB5Ymw2HqbZJTMhwN9AXHA-bI


http://tkfiles.storage.msn.com/x1pbglk-vqL4BtyxkOvxUfHyf7glibgATB_CR4BPOfkC-gKWDK0aR0sYmQpsCLbTi4Ds_ub3NgxAD57qeBnsiyPFbcBPapc_vQl4qh0vS4VO68m6eF36-rwVnRg2n8VY8d86FddBeMMAbbH4n6QZdXUIUhl7dCsybpL

Merci pour les photos eomer!

Franchement ca se voit tout trop beau!!!!!
Je me rends compte qu'elle me manque La France. :cry:

are there any pics of the new trains that will be running on that route or the route how it will look like and when will they run it????

@karakuri. I was a bit like you before. I am still proud of TGV improvements and SCNF speed records, nevertheless I must admit that sncf services are just awefull.
Last year I took a Train from Madrid to BCN (not a talgo, it was a just a sort of commuter train with stops in zaragoza, tarragona ( actually that was the place where I was going). I was simply amazed by the quality of services in those types of trains. Seats are much more confortable, you have more space, TV screens in every wagoon, newspapers for free. Even TGV first class does not offer a third of what was proposed in these trains (and I'd better not compare it to our "Train corail" system (you know what I mean)).
Except for food, things were much better in those trains than in any other train of sncf cie.

Speed is something, quality and services are another. If sncf does not improve its services, it will face a huge problem when the EU railway market will be liberalised.


A lot of train Corail was renovated and become most spacious, confortable and modern than TGV.
SNCF don't like LCD screen :ohno:

@karakuri. I was a bit like you before. I am still proud of TGV improvements and SCNF speed records, nevertheless I must admit that sncf services are just awefull.
Last year I took a Train from Madrid to BCN (not a talgo, it was a just a sort of commuter train with stops in zaragoza, tarragona ( actually that was the place where I was going). I was simply amazed by the quality of services in those types of trains. Seats are much more confortable, you have more space, TV screens in every wagoon, newspapers for free. Even TGV first class does not offer a third of what was proposed in these trains (and I'd better not compare it to our "Train corail" system (you know what I mean)).
Except for food, things were much better in those trains than in any other train of sncf cie.

Speed is something, quality and services are another. If sncf does not improve its services, it will face a huge problem when the EU railway market will be liberalised.

Yeah, there are serious punctuality problems with SNCF, too many strikes, all that because it's a national company, they thus have job security whatever they do. About LCD screens, you can ask for them at a special counter before riding the TGV, but if they are not embedded in seats I guess it's by fear of vandalism...

The TGV is made by Alstom, moreover the world record breaking new train is an AGV made without any connection with SNCF. This speed record has nothing to do with SNCF's commercial service quality, which is, I agreed more than 100%, maybe the worst on planet earth. :bash:

Excuse my ignorance but are they extending Marseille St Charles?

They should run a silver and blue TGV duplex to London St Pancras when the CTRL fully opens just to see what it looks like:)

Yeah, there are serious punctuality problems with SNCF, too many strikes, all that because it's a national company, they thus have job security whatever they do. About LCD screens, you can ask for them at a special counter before riding the TGV, but if they are not embedded in seats I guess it's by fear of vandalism...

The TGV is made by Alstom, moreover the world record breaking new train is an AGV made without any connection with SNCF. This speed record has nothing to do with SNCF's commercial service quality, which is, I agreed more than 100%, maybe the worst on planet earth. :bash:

Don't exagerate
SNCF service is better than most of world trains compagnies.
It is right comparated at Japanese trains compagnies Sncf is :bash:.

Valence TGV:
http://archiguide.free.fr/PH/FRA/Val/ValenceGareTGVAPG01.jpg

http://archiguide.free.fr/PH/FRA/Val/ValenceGareTGVAPG02.jpg

http://archiguide.free.fr/PH/FRA/Val/ValenceGareTGVAPG03.jpg

http://archiguide.free.fr/PH/FRA/Val/ValenceGareTGVAPG05.jpg

http://archiguide.free.fr/PH/FRA/Val/ValenceGareTGVAPG07.jpg

http://archiguide.free.fr/PH/FRA/Val/ValenceGareTGVAPG08.jpg

Avignon TGV:
http://archiguide.free.fr/PH/FRA/Avi/AvignonGareTGVAPG09.jpg

http://archiguide.free.fr/PH/FRA/Avi/AvignonGareTGVAPG01.jpg

http://archiguide.free.fr/PH/FRA/Avi/AvignonGareTGVAPG07.jpg

http://archiguide.free.fr/PH/FRA/Avi/AvignonGareTGVAPG06.jpg

http://archiguide.free.fr/PH/FRA/Avi/AvignonGareTGVAPG03.jpg

http://archiguide.free.fr/PH/FRA/Avi/AvignonGareTGVAPG04.jpg

http://archiguide.free.fr/PH/FRA/Avi/AvignonGareTGVAPG05.jpg

http://archiguide.free.fr/PH/FRA/Avi/AvignonGareTGVAPG08.jpg

Aix en Provence TGV
http://archiguide.free.fr/PH/FRA/Aix/AixGareTGVAPG07.jpg

http://archiguide.free.fr/PH/FRA/Aix/AixGareTGVAPG02.jpg

http://archiguide.free.fr/PH/FRA/Aix/AixGareTGVAPG03.jpg

http://archiguide.free.fr/PH/FRA/Aix/AixGareTGVAPG01.jpg

http://archiguide.free.fr/PH/FRA/Aix/AixGareTGVAPG05.jpg

http://archiguide.free.fr/PH/FRA/Aix/AixGareTGVAPG06.jpg

http://archiguide.free.fr/PH/FRA/Aix/AixGareTGVAPG04.jpg

Excuse my ignorance but are they extending Marseille St Charles?
Yes: since 10 years at least !!!

In the futur, there will be an other TGV Station in Marseille next to old "Blancarde Station": it will open with the HSR track "Italy-Catalonia" (Genova)-Nice-Toulon-Marseille-Avignon-Montpellier-Narbonne-Perpignan-(Barcelona)

yeah it is kind of a non ending construction site. Normally the "halle honorat extension" is to open by June 2007 (but I am pretty sure it is going to be delayed...another time).

Actually the whole city center is "under construction" due to euromed projects, tram and extension of the metro.

Urban planners are currently working on Marseille's Blancarde train station, trying to figure out how it can be extended to receive LGV ARC MED trains.

Yes: since 10 years at least !!!

In the futur, there will be an other TGV Station in Marseille next to old "Blancarde Station": it will open with the HSR track "Italy-Catalonia" (Genova)-Nice-Toulon-Marseille-Avignon-Montpellier-Narbonne-Perpignan-(Barcelona)

How big will this extension be?

yeah it is kind of a non ending construction site. Normally the "halle honorat extension" is to open by June 2007 (but I am pretty sure it is going to be delayed...another time).

Actually the whole city center is "under construction" due to euromed projects, tram and extension of the metro.

Urban planners are currently working on Marseille's Blancarde train station, trying to figure out how it can be extended to receive LGV ARC MED trains.

Is the main problem fitting in 400 metre long platforms?

Don't exagerate
SNCF service is better than most of world trains compagnies.
It is right comparated at Japanese trains compagnies Sncf is :bash:.

Of course I exagerated. In fact the TGV service is perfect, punctual, clean and fast...but the local train service is... anyway that's not the subject.

Thats is fantastic but I would not feel safe travelling at those speeds along rails. I loved watching the TGVs passing us while driving on the motorways in France. It showed us that driving at 120km/h is not that fast. I did not get to ride in a TGV but I rode the Eurostar and the Thalys which I believe have similar speeds.

Thats is fantastic but I would not feel safe travelling at those speeds along rails. I loved watching the TGVs passing us while driving on the motorways in France. It showed us that driving at 120km/h is not that fast. I did not get to ride in a TGV but I rode the Eurostar and the Thalys which I believe have similar speeds.

It's perfectly safe so don't worry.

Eurostar and Thalys trains are TGV's aswell.

They should run a silver and blue TGV duplex to London St Pancras when the CTRL fully opens just to see what it looks like:)
TGV Duplex are not allowed to cross the channel tunnel with passengers onboard for easy understanding safety raisons. Eurostar are specialy design to cross the chunnel.

TGV Duplex are not allowed to cross the channel tunnel with passengers onboard for easy understanding safety raisons. Eurostar are specialy design to cross the chunnel.

I think it's usually Kent Fire Brigade who have the final say over what can and cannot use the channel tunnel?

Shame really, we'll soon be a proper part of the European high speed railway network. Be nice to actually increase the scope of services that can use the CTRL.

TGV Duplex are not allowed to cross the channel tunnel with passengers onboard for easy understanding safety raisons. Eurostar are specialy design to cross the chunnel.This being said, there are still duplex trains which cross the chunnel everyday, and those are called "le Shuttle" ! You know those on which you put your cars in. They are on 2 levels.

As far as I know, Eurostars aren't faster than shuttle trains inside the tunnel. As such, I don't know for which reason there wouldn't be duplex trains also with the Eurostar!

I'm not sure but i heard somewhere that Eurostar can go across the channel at 160kph wheras the double decker shuttle is limited at 110kph

As far as I know, Eurostars aren't faster than shuttle trains inside the tunnel. As such, I don't know for which reason there wouldn't be duplex trains also with the Eurostar!
€* are allowed to 160 km/h into the tunnel. Le Shuttle are 120 km/h only.
Using Duplex trains: why not is the futur but existing TGV Duplex could not because:
- Train should be cut by the middle in case of fire.
- Special fire doors must be closed between coachs during tunnel transit.
- Materials should resist more than 15' in case on fire.

€* are allowed to 160 km/h into the tunnel. Le Shuttle are 120 km/h only.
Using Duplex trains: why not is the futur but existing TGV Duplex could not because:
- Train should be cut by the middle in case of fire.
- Special fire doors must be closed between coachs during tunnel transit.
- Materials should resist more than 15' in case on fire.

I thought in case one locomotive takes fire the second should take the other one out of the tunnel. So why cutting of in the middle? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Great pics eomer!!!

a new tgv line will be inaugurated in june between Paris and Starsbourg where train will do 320km/h.

I thought in case one locomotive takes fire the second should take the other one out of the tunnel. So why cutting of in the middle? Please correct me if I am wrong.

The Eurostar TGV's are made up of two half sets, incase of a fire both half sets can be split and taken out of the tunnel in opposite directions after the fire has been isolated. I believe that one of the on board train managers is qualified to drive the train out of the tunnel.

3 months ago.

http://dev2.batiactu.com/cap_diapo/images/utils_images/20060711_111839_1gare.jpg

http://dev2.batiactu.com/cap_diapo/images/utils_images/20060711_111914_2gare.jpg

http://dev2.batiactu.com/cap_diapo/images/utils_images/20060711_112101_5gare.jpg

http://dev2.batiactu.com/cap_diapo/images/utils_images/20060711_112030_4gare.jpg

http://dev2.batiactu.com/cap_diapo/images/utils_images/20060711_111953_3gare.jpg

http://dev2.batiactu.com/cap_diapo/images/utils_images/20060711_112133_6gare.jpg

New record 5 days ago at 557kph
Video avaliable here:

http://www.dailymotion.com/visited/search/tgv%2Brecord/video/x1ac4w_tgv-4402

and a second one there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6lBjd2Ij8I

And a really cool link for those who wanna all the speed records in video:

http://tgv16orange.free.fr/videos.html

According to our information, last 13 February, on the new line Paris Strasbourg, a TGV reached, in the neighbourhoods of the km 190 in the direction Strasbourg-Paris, the record speed of 559,4 kph (and not 553 kph as announced in "Le Parisien"). The train was made up of two "boosted" motor coaches and motorized bogies. According to personnel's on board, "one slightly slowed down not to exceed the 560 km/h", speed planned for the next official and approved record.

http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/actualites/societe/20070224.OBS4098/le_tgv_a_5594_kmh.html

True or not ?

New record 5 days ago at 557kph
Video avaliable here:

http://www.dailymotion.com/visited/search/tgv%2Brecord/video/x1ac4w_tgv-4402

and a second one there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6lBjd2Ij8I

And a really cool link for those who wanna all the speed records in video:

http://tgv16orange.free.fr/videos.html

Sweet! Why is it going the wrong way down the line? :)

@ M@rco: Problably True as I read somewhere that the ingeneers said that going over 580kph may not be a problem.. so wait & see..

@ CharlieP: Actually these are just tests, and the line is not in service, so trains can run on both tracks, no matter if they are going the right or wrong way :)

Actually, come to think of it, the rail speed record set in the UK last year on the Channel Tunnel Rail Link was also done by a train going the "wrong way" :)

On most modern railway lines going on the right or the left side is indifferent. Sometimes they can also be used by two trains in each direction. But usually they are used on the "traditional" side (for example, on the left in UK, France, Switzerland, Italy, or on the right in Germany, Austria, Spain).

@ M@rco: Problably True as I read somewhere that the ingeneers said that going over 580kph may not be a problem.. so wait & see..

560 km/h would be great.
580 km/h....hum, hum. I don't know.
600 km/h: in the futur maybe.

Amazing what they can still do with conventional rails.

Do the trucks still have monoblock wheels?

Then you need to visit http://www.record2007.com/jeu/index_en.php.

No thanks :)

NO Thanks ????? :ohno:

Just Play !!! If u win, give me your place dude!

Ok i won, what now?:lol:

If u wanna see the colours of the new tgv for the future record (officialy April 4th) check out this link (in french)

http://tf1.lci.fr/infos/economie/entreprises/0,,3420714,00-tgv-prepare-pour-nouveau-record-.html

268 Tons, 26000 hp, top speed for the record between 340 and 370 mph

The video will be availiable only for a couple of days ^^

Nice livery ^ ^

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/7629/07062311280270tgv4402pasa4.jpg


http://www.sncf.fr/actu/swf/actuV150Video.swf

^^Nice double decker TGV and original livery!
:happy:

Taken on the eastern line today, with a new test run at 568,1 kph

http://gaston.choquert.free.fr/photos/4402-km262-29032007_53.jpg

(picture taken on a french forum)

And here is a run with a jet (actually that's a test to film the performance from a plane because helicopters are really too slow)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1kqoq_4402-meuse

wow, 568 :eek:

Responding to the Fastech question, their top speed in commercial service is a little over 400km/h along certain portions of the JR East Shinkansen Lines (does not include Tokaido, which is run by JR Central), with commercial speed sitting around 370 I believe.

People should not write off the MLX-01 in Japan (run by JR Central) as an experimental model. While it is technically a test track now, the current test track will become incorporated into the next-generation Shinkansen as a relief line for the current Tokaido (which is funny, since the Tokaido was a relief line for its conventional narrow-gauge predecessor). That test track will not be a test track forever, it will be extended to Shinjuku in the east and Nagoya and Osaka in the west. Track alignment will be very different from the existing Tokaido Shinkansen, as the next-gen will arc close to the Sea of Japan on its way to Nagoya.

That said, if the TGV can break 600km/h, this still cannot be done on normal operations. The maglev hits between 550-600 on a regular basis, not mere "special test runs". A record is useless if it has no practical applications in the real world. Maglev's 550+ speeds can be used in commercial operation, TGV's can't.

^^ True, except that HSL trains (except Shanghai's maglev) today does not exceed 320 km/h in normal service.

Responding to the Fastech question, their top speed in commercial service is a little over 400km/h along certain portions of the JR East Shinkansen Lines (does not include Tokaido, which is run by JR Central), with commercial speed sitting around 370 I believe..

http://www.futura-sciences.com/sinformer/b/news221b.php
Translated by Google:
"JR East, Japanese railway company, presented this morning [27/06/2005]the prototype of new Shinkansen (high-speed train) which could become the fastest train of the world with a speed of 360 km/h in mode of commercial exploitation. Fastech 360S would thus exceed the French TGV which can currently run to 300 km/h. The development of this supposed train capacity to exceed 400 km/h should last until 2008, the commercial exploitation not being envisaged before 2011 on a new railway in the course of construction. "


This is the best description I could find of the Fastech 360S which has not yet been built. It is the latest in a long series of experimental trains which have been built and tested in Japan to improve the technology of high speed trains. So far none of them has entered service running faster than 300km/h and the current speed limit on the JR East Tohoku line is 275 km/h. The Japanese may try to recapture the world speed record with the Fastech 360s in 2008/09 when this prototype is built.

^^ True, except that HSL trains (except Shanghai's maglev) today does not exceed 320 km/h in normal service.

Does the Shanghai maglev really achieve 320 km/h in normal service over less than 100 km of maglev track?

Does the Shanghai maglev really achieve 320 km/h in normal service over less than 100 km of maglev track?

Of cause, its top speed is 430 along the 30 km track. It has a design top speed of 550 (Commercial 500) but the track in shanghai is to short.

Responding to the Fastech question, their top speed in commercial service is a little over 400km/h along certain portions of the JR East Shinkansen Lines (does not include Tokaido, which is run by JR Central), with commercial speed sitting around 370 I believe.

People should not write off the MLX-01 in Japan (run by JR Central) as an experimental model. While it is technically a test track now, the current test track will become incorporated into the next-generation Shinkansen as a relief line for the current Tokaido (which is funny, since the Tokaido was a relief line for its conventional narrow-gauge predecessor). That test track will not be a test track forever, it will be extended to Shinjuku in the east and Nagoya and Osaka in the west. Track alignment will be very different from the existing Tokaido Shinkansen, as the next-gen will arc close to the Sea of Japan on its way to Nagoya.

That said, if the TGV can break 600km/h, this still cannot be done on normal operations. The maglev hits between 550-600 on a regular basis, not mere "special test runs". A record is useless if it has no practical applications in the real world. Maglev's 550+ speeds can be used in commercial operation, TGV's can't.

Japanese Shinkansens NEVER exceed 300kph, I don't know where you got that 400kph thing...
Anyway, the TGV record is obviously not intended to make people think it will run this speed on commercial use. It's just meant to prove how far high speed train technology has gone. It also prove that in a near future, top commercial speed will be pushed over 320 (Paris - Strasbourg).

This is the best description I could find of the Fastech 360S which has not yet been built.

The Fastech has been built, and testing is mostly complete, thus they have been approved to enter service for next year.

Japanese Shinkansens NEVER exceed 300kph, I don't know where you got that 400kph thing...It is the Fastech that goes just past 400. Fastech has not yet entered revenue service. Japanese Shinkansen on JR East lines will exceed 300km/h and on occasion even hit 400km/h next year.

The maglev hits between 550-600 on a regular basis

Then why is the world record for maglev within this range?

^^
Maybe because there isn't a maglev track that's long enough to go faster?

I've read that the world record on the eastern line costed 30.000.000 euros. I have difficulty beleaving this. Is there somebody who knows more about this? 30 milion is extremely much for one train-ride! Maybe the journalist was confused somewhere?

The Fastech has been built, and testing is mostly complete, thus they have been approved to enter service for next year.

It is the Fastech that goes just past 400. Fastech has not yet entered revenue service. Japanese Shinkansen on JR East lines will exceed 300km/h and on occasion even hit 400km/h next year.

And cars will be flying by 2067.

And cars will be flying by 2067.

Hey, the source is from JR East, if you have a problem with it, take it up with them. If JR East says that it will be running its ***est model train at a commercial speed of 360 or so and with a max speed over 400 in some segments of the line by next year, then it is hard to argue since nobody else would know better - especially not you.

Then why is the world record for maglev within this range?

The ongoing testing is for reasons other than speed. The limiting factor preventing it from breaking the 600 mark is air resistance. Otherwise, 550 or so is its regular speed. And it is reached without destroying the infrastructure, unlike the TGV, which totally destroys tracks at 500km/h (BEHOLD THE POWER OF FRICTION, BWAHAHAHA). Other problems they encounter are noise control. Once you start going faster than three- or four-hundred kilometers, the air friction gets noisy, especially at tunnel entrances. There is also the issue of passing trains in the opposite direction - a passing speed of over 1100km/h (~550 + ~550 = ~1100). These are all problems that need to be addressed. While maintaining the speeds is not an issue, and passenger safety is pretty much all good as the live passenger tests have been going on for a year and a half now, the remaining problems are more along the lines of integrating into the built environment. You can't have trains sending sonic booms to every ******** it passes on route. This is what the ongoing tests are for, because JR Central knows that people will complain a lot about these things, as they have encountered similar back in the JNR days with the San'you Shinkansen (which was constructed differently than the Toukaidou and thus had *** problems to solve). Apart from those environmental issues, the MLX-01's technology is already verified as safe and ready for commercial use, but there is actually no funding for the construction of a *** next-gen Shinkansen.

I've read that the world record on the eastern line costed 30.000.000 euros. I have difficulty beleaving this. Is there somebody who knows more about this? 30 milion is extremely much for one train-ride! Maybe the journalist was confused somewhere?

Track repairs. 550km/h for a conventional train is some painful friction the infrastructure was never designed to take. Tracks and overhead wires are destroyed.

Track repairs. 550km/h for a conventional train is some painful friction the infrastructure was never designed to take. Tracks and overhead wires are destroyed.

??? What the hell is this nonsense? If tracks and wires are destroyed, then it means that the TGV flies too :banana: , and that it runs by coal power?

The Eastern TGV line is brand ***, it already cost millions and took 7 years to build, you realy think they are going to screw it?
If this record costs money, it's because it requires engineering, lightening of the train, *** motors....

Is it possible to build tracks that can take such a speed? What is the use of spending so much money. I hope it's not only to get into the guinness book of records. There are cheaper ways to do that.

The TGV uses articulated bogies between carriages to minimise sway and prevent jack-knifing in the event of a derailment, and it works quite well from what I know. However, the German ICE, Italian ETR500 and Japanese Shinkansen don't use this method to main stability between carriages. What methods do they employ instead?

The TGV uses articulated bogies between carriages to minimise sway and prevent jack-knifing in the event of a derailment, and it works quite well from what I know. However, the German ICE, Italian ETR500 and Japanese Shinkansen don't use this method to main stability between carriages. What methods do they employ instead?

From Japanese Railway Technology Today by Railway Technical Research Institute and East Japan Railway Culture Foundation, chapter 3; Shinkansen Bogies, pp. 35-36

-Incorporated springs and oil dampers in bodie suspension, significantly reducing vibration
-Mounted traction motor on bogie frame instead of using nose suspension system and also used parallel cardan drie system to transmit power to wheelset via flexible couplings and gears, greatly reducing bogie weight, in turn permitting faster speeds on shinkansen and other electric trains.
-Adopted press-welded structure fro bogie frames, reducing frame weight considerably.
-Introduced disk brakes, increasing braking power, in turn permitting faster speeds

(snip)

Graded Wheel Tread Gradient

(snip)

The circular configuration which is shaped like a large number of arcs aligned next to each other, supposes a wheel tread that has already been subjected to wear. This configuration reduces contact bearing forces between the wheel tread and the running surface of the rail. This means less wheel tread wear, which in turn means that better running performance is kept for longer periods of time. The effective gradient of shinkansen circular weheel treads is about 1:16, which meets demands for both stability at high speeds and excelling running performance on curved track.



That is just the beginning of the chapter, it gets into a fair amount of detail. The book can be purchased from www.jrtr.net.

??? What the hell is this nonsense? If tracks and wires are destroyed, then it means that the TGV flies too :banana: , and that it runs by coal power?

The Eastern TGV line is brand ***, it already cost millions and took 7 years to build, you realy think they are going to screw it?
If this record costs money, it's because it requires engineering, lightening of the train, *** motors....

You're an ignoramus, yes it can get damaged. However, LGV has apparently addressed the issues of the past tests, which I was not aware.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_construction
The quality of construction was put to the test in particular during the TGV world speed record runs on the LGV Atlantique; the track was used at over 500 km/h (310 mph) without suffering significant damage. This contrasts with previous French world rail speed record attempts which resulted in severe deformation of the track.

It also prove that in a near future, top commercial speed will be pushed over 320 (Paris - Strasbourg).
Since 2001, the TGV runs at 320kph during 40km between Avignon and Aix en Provence... ;)

You're an ignoramus, yes it can get damaged. However, LGV has apparently addressed the issues of the past tests, which I was not aware.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_construction
This contrasts with previous French world rail speed record attempts which resulted in severe deformation of the track.
:lol:

first : wikipedia UK is not really what we can call a source as regards TGV and LGV in france...

second : the only damages on a track caused by a high speed record in france, have been endured in the end 50's begin 60's when the speed have been pushed on top 300~350 kph

third : those superstructures that are the LGV cost lot of money, so don't take the french for silly men, all the top speed test were made with maximum security for the people in the train that saved the record, and for the superstructure that are and will be used to commercial exploitation...

sncf, alstom and rff take no risk just to beat their own record... ;)

:lol:

first : wikipedia UK is not really what we can call a source as regards TGV and LGV in france...

second : the only damages on a track caused by a high speed record in france, have been endured in the end 50's begin 60's when the speed have been pushed on top 300~350 kph

third : those superstructures that are the LGV cost lot of money, so don't take the french for silly men, all the top speed test were made with maximum security for the people in the train that saved the record, and for the superstructure that are and will be used to commercial exploitation...

sncf, alstom and rff take no risk just to beat their own record... ;)

But, I still don't understand why it's so expensive to beat this record. (30.000.000 euro's)

it's the cost of the special TGV that will explode the record, and all technologies shiped in.

as jean luc said, the TGV uses articulated bogies between carriages, it is propulsed with two locomotive on each extremities.
the TGV that will beat its own record is a new generation, those articulated bogies between carriage are now motorized, that give more power and use less energy

the 30.000.000 € are the cost of this new train and the cost of energy (electric, human, etc) for this record... the objective of this record is to prove that this technology is now effective... because during the period 2010-2020, sncf will renewed its 500 TGV... alstom has to prove that its technology is always the best...

I know this train is not fully new but, for instance, the price of a TGV classic was 15M. euros and a TGV Duplex between 24 and 28M. euros...

^^ So the investments they did will be used later. In the Belgium newspapers they said the 30.000.000 was only for the ride. If they build a complete new train with this money it's not only for a record attempt. I suppose they will try to build a new and superfast train based on this technology? Do you think it will be possible to reach these speeds in commercial service?

So the investments they did will be used later
yes probably, as for the TGV that had the record of 515.3kph is used as a normal TGV

In the Belgium newspapers they said the 30.000.000 was only for the ride. If they build a complete new train with this money it's not only for a record attempt.
this TGV is in a record configuration, 2 locomotives and 3 passengers cars (full of computer for this record)... but after this ride this TGV can be configure for a commercial exploitation, with 2 locomotives and 8 or 10 passengers cars...

I suppose they will try to build a new and superfast train based on this technology? Do you think it will be possible to reach these speeds in commercial service?
this TGV call AGV is a new technology, no other train used or actually use it
the commercial speed of the future AGV, if SNCF buy it, will be 350kph...
...580kph commercial speed, probably during the next century :D

What costed 30 million euros is the several months of test ride, measures, preparation of the train, etc; not just Tomorrow's ride on TV.

Since 2001, the TGV runs at 320kph during 40km between Avignon and Aix en Provence... ;)

That's right but what I meant is that in 2009 commercial speed of the new generation TGV called AGV will be 350kph.

It is 350 Kph :)

It is 350 Kph :)

My bad! Of course, I corrected.

Do the (bogies) still have monoblock wheels?

Does anyone knowabout this still? I'm going venture a guess and say yes the technology still uses monoblock wheels (that is, the axle+2wheel pair is a single block of steel)

^^
is this answer to your question?
the bogies are motorized on the V150

http://www.transport.alstom.com/home/news/Hot_events/v150/trainset/_files/file_28913_58577.jpg
www.transport.alstom.com (http://www.transport.alstom.com/home/news/Hot_events/v150/trainset/28913.FR.php?languageId=FR&dir=/home/news/Hot_events/v150/trainset/)

Hey, the source is from JR East, if you have a problem with it, take it up with them. If JR East says that it will be running its ***est model train at a commercial speed of 360 or so and with a max speed over 400 in some segments of the line by next year, then it is hard to argue since nobody else would know better - especially not you.

I finally found the discussion of the Fastech 360S on the JR East web site. It confirmed that the 360S is a simple prototype for a future comercial specification and the timetable was extremely vague. The specification, not the commercail units, might be available in 2008. The 405 km/h tesing of this prototype is about the equivalent of the 550+ km/p testing of the French AGV on the LGV-est. Both sets of tests are designed to verify new technologies prior to commercial specifications for operational trains. Historically it has taken 5 to 10 years for the comercial implementation of the new technologies on Japan's Shinkansen trains.

The most interesting part of the 360S is that it actually has two different nose shapes, one at each end to test noise suppression and it has some active tilt technology to reduce the vibrations at higher speeds. Other technologies being tested are three different types of boogie, at least two variations on the pantographs, durable breaking technologies and ice suppression technologies which will be essential when they reach Hokaido.

574,8 km/h !!!!!!!!!!!
The record has just been broken. :banana:

:cheer: :cheers:

574,8 Kph

And now it is official :)

It was cool to watch :)

a link to the video of the record, from TV france2/dailymotion

record AGV 574,8 km/h (http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/record%2Btgv/video/x1m66m_record-vitesse-tgv-5748-kmh)

WOW! :nuts:

Awesome stuff. It's a shame they couldn't have found the extra 7km/h and beaten the Maglev record speed too!

OMG impressive video, thx for sharing!! :cheers:

I just watched this news on TV, it's amazing. running as fast as a airplane on the ground, wowwwwwwwwwwww!

Well Done to the French, a fantastic job.
I just hope that when the phase two of the CTRL is completed and people in the see just how impressive these machines are the money will be invested expanding a greater TGV based network in the UK.

Amazing speed, and so close to the Maglev record...

Congratulations ! Well done :)

must be an breathtaking feeling to be in the train at this speed

here is the official site

http://www.record2007.com/site/index_en.php

574,7 kph !!!!!!!!!!!
The record has just been broken. :banana:


we say km/h, kph is not correct

Congratulations!
:dance:

MAGLEV train record is 581km/h.
;)

Congratulations!
:dance:

MAGLEV train record is 581km/h.
;)


Why didn't the conductor put a bit more gas and break the maglev record yesterday? :lol: 574 is so close to 581km/h

Congrats!!

Vive la France!!! Beautiful work! :)

Congratulations!
:dance:

MAGLEV train record is 581km/h.
;)

And planes can do mach 2.5 ;)

That was fast!

space shuttles go even faster O.o

space shuttles go even faster O.o

Damn! You're right!

space shuttles go even faster O.o
That's right but if you want to go from Paris to Strasbourg...

Fantastic video Here, the speed and the sound (plane & Tgv at the same time) are incredible!!

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/tgv%2Brecord/video/x1mb99_tgv-new-world-speed-record

thanks for the link, very impressive !!
the sound of the train is really incredible

Why didn't the conductor put a bit more gas and break the maglev record yesterday? :lol: 574 is so close to 581km/h
Yeah, I wonder the same!
:yes:

I don't believe it makes such a difference if the record would have been 582 km/h rather than 574 km/h. What Alsthom wanted to prove was simply that high speed rail was still competitive and had still room for development compared with the maglev technology.

We have trains running at 320 km/h in commercial use everyday in France. Granted it's slower than the maglev, but high speed rail remains cheaper to build and to maintain than maglev does. At such a speed, a high speed rail line between San Diego, LA and San Francisco could be competitive against airplanes.

I don't believe it makes such a difference if the record would have been 582 km/h rather than 574 km/h. What Alsthom wanted to prove was simply that high speed rail was still competitive and had still room for development compared with the maglev technology.

We have trains running at 320 km/h in commercial use everyday in France. Granted it's slower than the maglev, but high speed rail remains cheaper to build and to maintain than maglev does. At such a speed, a high speed rail line between San Diego, LA and San Francisco could be competitive against airplanes.

Exactly. Moreover, the new Alstom AGV High Speed Train is already designed for 350km/h in commercial use, which may sound to make not so much difference in European countries, but which may be quite important at the US or Chinese scale.

We have trains running at 320 km/h in commercial use everyday in France. Granted it's slower than the maglev, but high speed rail remains cheaper to build and to maintain than maglev does. At such a speed, a high speed rail line between San Diego, LA and San Francisco could be competitive against airplanes.

Maglev is more expensive to build, but cheaper to maintain (at ~300km/h). This is maglev's strongest point, not its speed.

we say km/h, kph is not correct

that's the same ^^

Nein

Nein

^^Ja. It is the same. km/h is more widely used, but kph is still understood. It is like pphpd where they also use "p" for "per", hence kph is acceptable.

I would find the picture of the HQ of the SNCF with this. :)
http://irgendwo.free.fr/est/21.jpg

HQ of SNCF
http://archiguide.free.fr/PH/FRA/Par/P14SNCFMasRou.jpg

^^Ja. It is the same. km/h is more widely used, but kph is still understood. It is like pphpd where they also use "p" for "per", hence kph is acceptable.

"kph" is not acceptable - first of all the symbol for kilometres is km, not k, and secondly, SI units[1] should be written with a / or a negative exponent.

[1] km/h are not part of SI, but accepted for use in it.

Maglev is more expensive to build, but cheaper to maintain (at ~300km/h). This is maglev's strongest point, not its speed.says who? where's the proof?

Unfortunately TRZ there's not that much public data available to prove that maintenance expenses for maglev systems are cheaper.

However putting that aside lets ask ourselves why would a maglev system be cheaper to maintain? Is it because there is no friction?

NOTHING lasts forever, even something that is not subjected to friction. The electromagnets on a maglev line would eventually degrade through other factors like weather and heat generation. If it's superconducting then there's a complex cooling system that has to be maintained and that can't be cheap.

Furthermore I'd like to point out there are STRESSES placed on the system. Even though there are no wheels the weight of the maglev train still gets transfered to the line via electromagnetic forces. However the weight would be more evenly distributed throughout the length of the train and not concentrated at wheel to rail contact points like a conventional train. This may be more advantageous from a structural perspective but those stress forces still exist.

Secondly A maglev line must be very accurately "aligned". I'm going to assume this alignment must be monitored regularly and re-adjusted when necessary to stay within tolerances.

Sorry TRZ I have yet to see conclusive proof...so the verdict is still out. My gut tells me a maglev system is not something that can be built, then ignored and assumed to function properly perpetually simply because there is no friction. It still needs "attention" and that costs money.

my 2 cents...feel free to disagree :cheers:

^^Ja. It is the same. km/h is more widely used, but kph is still understood. It is like pphpd where they also use "p" for "per", hence kph is acceptable.


kph is not an abbreviation of the international system SI. It is nothing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Km/h

this TGV call AGV is a new technology, no other train used or actually use it

What is new about it?

I suspect it's something new with the suspension; Hunting oscillations are a killer.

The AGV is an EMU (electric multiple unit). That is, it has traction motors distributed along the length of the train mounted on the bogies, like the Japanese Shinkansen. The existing TGV has power cars at each end, with usually only the first bogies on the adjacent passenger carriages powered as well, and hence is not an EMU.

Check out:
http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/frenchtgv (scroll down to rolling stock)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotrice_%C3%A0_grande_vitesse

The Rhine-Rhone high-speed line consists of three branches: the Eastern branch, the Western branch and the Southern branch.

The whole Rhine-Rhone high-speed project may be likened to a three-pronged star:

http://www.lgvrhinrhone.com/images/photos/carte.gif

- the Eastern branch, between the Dijon (Genlis) and Mulhouse (Lutterbach) urban areas, with 190 km of new line.
- the Western branch, from the Western end of the Eastern branch towards Paris via Dijon.
- the Southern branch, from the junction of the two other branches towards Lyon.

A view of the track:
http://www.lgvrhinrhone.com/medias/pdf/medias79.pdf

http://www.rff.fr/biblio_pdf/lgv_RR_BE.pdf

A project with a difference : Journey times

With the very first tranche of the Eastern branch, journey times for a large number of origin-destination pairs will be substantially reduced.

http://www.lgvrhinrhone.com/images/photos/Copie-de-temps-de-parcours-.gif

A project with a difference : Key figures

A few figures illustrating the scale of France’s biggest civil engineering project

- 140 km of line, including 40 % through forests
- 85 municipalities
- 6,000 site-related jobs
- 160 bridges
- 12 viaducts
- 12-km long tunnel
- 400 km of fencing
- 500,000 sleepers
- 2 new stations
- 24 million m³ of excavations
- 18 million m³ of embankment

A project with a difference: timelines

The line will be built in two stages: earthworks and civil engineering structures between 2006 and 2009, and railway equipment (rails and overhead lines, signalling systems and fencing) between 2009 and 2011.

http://www.lgvrhinrhone.com/images/photos/ligne.jpg

More info : http://www.lgvrhinrhone.com/english.php & http://www.rff.fr/pages/projets/fiche_projet.asp?lg=fr&code=147&codeRegion=9

I just love the french railway, especialy the TGV!

It's a bit late but it's done: http://lgv2030.free.fr

Soon the 40 000° viewer: a pint of bier for the man (or woman) who bring me a copy of the screen with number 40 000 !

A great site you got :okay:

With Gare de Lyon and Gare Montparnasse being both already being congested railway terminals in Paris, are there plans that SNCF is planning to upgrade Gare d'Austerlitz, so that some of the train services on the TGV Sud-Est (Paris-French Riviera, Montpellier and Lyon) can be used for by both Gare de Lyon and Gare d'Austerlitz?

Currently Gare d'Austerlitz is predominantly used for their overnight train service to/from Spain and Gare de Lyon serves trains that are bound for Lyon and the French Riviera.

http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/article3310022.ece

John Lichfield: Shunted off in a tale of two railways

While British trains are a byword for chaos, vision and flair are the French way

Published: 05 January 2008

While we curse our railways, the French celebrate them. And expand them. The Grand Palais, the enormous exhibition hall just off the Champs-Elysées, has been turned into a virtual railway station until next week, housing rolling stock and artistic displays to celebrate the 70th anniversary of the SNCF, the French state railway system.

To mark the occasion, Guillaume Pépy, the dynamic deputy head of the SNCF, and head of Eurostar, invited a few Paris-based European journalists to lunch. For someone such as myself, who is not afraid to admit that he was once a trainspotter and remains a great enthusiast for railways, the exhibition – L'Art entre en gare – was a delight.

So were M. Pépy's bubbling enthusiasm and vision for railways as a transport system, not of the past, but of the future. His vision is all the more exciting – or depressing if you prefer – against the background of the latest tangle of rail-engineering delays and line closures in Britain.

Not all recent developments on Britain's railways have been bad but we no longer, it seems, have anyone capable of making strategic decisions, or inspired guesses, about the shape of the eco-friendly rail systems that we need. Two centuries, almost, after we invented railways, where are our Stephensons or Brunels? Or even our Pépys?

Guillaume Pépy hopes that the French government will make the development of railways – and especially high-speed railways – one of the principal themes of its presidency of the European Union in the second half of this year. In particular, M. Pépy hopes that Paris will be able to persuade its European partners to back the latest bright idea to come from the SNCF: high-speed overnight goods trains.

Most of the high-value, next-day-delivery business, handled by FedEx, DHL and others, goes by air. The SNCF has been working with Air France and FedEx on the possibility of using high-speed railway lines at night to capture much of this traffic for rail (and reduce the level of carbon emissions per parcel by as much as 80 times). M. Pépy hopes that the idea – called "Carex" – can be spread Europe-wide, as Europe's high-speed rail network expands.

A couple of high-speed double-decker parcels trains on the new fast line between Paris and London would carry as much overnight cargo and parcels traffic as two jumbo jets. At present, the fast line to the Channel Tunnel is closed at night for maintenance. So are all the high-speed railway lines in France.

M. Pépy and the SNCF want to use these lines, after midnight, for a few high-speed "cargo express" trains. If spread across Europe, he believes that the idea would not only reduce carbon emissions but also radically reduce the cost of overnight letters and packages. The SNCF, FedEx and – interestingly – Air France have already commissioned preliminary studies for double-decker, TGV cargo trains, capable of carrying everything from a postcard to a full-size freight container. Such a network would help to reduce the noise nuisance of freight flights in the early hours. It would reduce transport carbon emissions. It would strengthen the economic and environmental case for the building of further high-speed railway lines.

The SNCF is already planning to introduce night TGV trains later this year. These will be "party" trains, aimed at young people who, as M. Pépy says, associate traditional overnight trains with "the smell of socks". On the new high-speed trains, bookable only on the internet, passengers will not be expected to sleep: they will dance, watch films, play games, or "do anything they like so long as it is decent".

"Only 12 per cent of Europe's carbon emissions come from transport," M. Pépy says. "But that 12 per cent is enormous. Everyone knows that it is going to be difficult to reduce the carbon footprint of industry and home-heating. All eyes will turn to transport. It will simply no longer be acceptable, in 20 or 30 years' time, that short-haul journeys between European cities are conducted by air transport. There must be a more rational division between the use of aircraft on medium - and long-haul journeys and high-speed railways for short-haul journeys."

What does M. Pépy mean by short haul? He suggested that all journeys up to at least 500km (or 300 miles) should naturally become rail journeys. In France – and increasingly in Italy, Spain and Germany – the high-speed lines are being built or planned which make that vision possible. The SNCF is already in discussion with the Spanish railways to create a new service from Brussels to Madrid, using high-speed lines in three countries.

By 2020, France should have 3,000km (1,864 miles) of high-speed railway line. President Nicolas Sarkozy recently promised that studies would commence on the building of another 2,000km of lignes à grande vitesse by 2030.

The extra lines are likely to include a new link across the breadth of the south of France from Toulouse to Nice and a second line to the French entrance to the Channel Tunnel, passing through Amiens instead of Lille. They are also likely to include a second trunk line from Paris to Lyons, to relieve Europe's first high-speed line, opened in 1981, which is approaching capacity.

All of these new lines may, if marketing and engineering studies prove positive, be constructed with their double tracks further apart. This would allow the SNCF to run a new generation of TGVs with service speeds up to 360km/h (224mph) instead of 280 to 320km/h on existing lines.

How exciting. How depressing.

The rebuilt London St Pancras station is magnificent but is likely to remain the terminus of a high-speed branch line. Given the muddle over routine maintenance of Britain's overburdened railway network, what is the hope of this, or any, British government taking the courageous, strategic decision to build lignes à grande vitesse to the north of England and Scotland?

If M. Pépy is right, air traffic between London and Manchester, Liverpool and Leeds – even Glasgow – will be politically and ecologically unacceptable in two decades' time. One strategically placed high-speed line up the spine of Britain could link 80 per cent of the nation's population. The cost of building such a line would be immense. So will be – already is – the cost of not doing so.

Most major British cities don't seem to be as far apart from each other as Paris and Marseille or Bordeaux, so I don't think high-speed lines would have the same effect on travel times as in France. I'm not saying there's no need for them in Britain, but I think a lot of things could and should be worked on before building high-speed lines. It doesn't really take that kind of infrastructure nor "two decades' time" to make Air traffic between London and Manchester, Liverpool and Leeds "polictically and ecologically unacceptable".

British loading gauge and platform lengths, for example, make capacity increases on existing lines more difficult than in France and most of continental Europe. The existing infrastructure doesn't allow double-deck trains or up to 470 metres long double units as in France. Even the most congested or fastest British main lines still lack proper in-cab signalling systems, despite them being so common in other European countries. Many of those British main lines haven't even been electrified yet, which increases operational costs and emissions and reduces rolling stock performance.

It seems that by just upgrading the existing infrastructure with rather common equipment like in-cab signalling (allowing the existing rolling stock to reach the 225 or 240 Km/h it has been designed for instead of less than 200 Km/h), and by reducing stops en route, even longer journeys like London-Glasgow or London-Edinburgh could be done in less than four hours, which would give the train a very reasonable competitiveness without huge investments and years of construction works. Even less would be needed to reach a similar competitiveness on much shorter distances, like London-Birmingham/Manchester/Liverpool/York/Newcastle/Leeds or Birmingham/Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh.

Four hours? Reasonable? Paris-Strasbourg is now 2h and some - to be reduced to 1h50 in the decade. That's longer than London-Manchester. Three hours to Glasgow seems reasonable.

Four hours? Reasonable? Paris-Strasbourg is now 2h and some - to be reduced to 1h50 in the decade. That's longer than London-Manchester. Three hours to Glasgow seems reasonable.

I was refering to the last words of the article:

If M. Pépy is right, air traffic between London and Manchester, Liverpool and Leeds – even Glasgow – will be politically and ecologically unacceptable in two decades' time.

The less than four hours for London-Glasgow I was talking about would already be enough to consider "air traffic politically and ecologically unacceptable", and being slower than the Paris-Strasbourg TGV certainly wouldn't make it unreasonable. A new high speed line could of course further improve journey times, and I'm not saying it would be useless, but it doesn't seem indispensable for reasonable journey times.

As for London-Manchester, the completion of current WCML works in 2008/2009 will allow journey times of 1h58 minutes (which could be further reduced by nonstop trains), even without in-cab signalling and with a top speed of just 200 Km/h. None of the competing means of transport will be able to beat that, which makes the train very competitive in my opinion. This doesn't make HS2 unnecessary, but I guess if it's built some day it'll be rather to increase capacity than because of the 25 minutes it would slice off existing journey times.

HSL in France were build to cut off journeys' time, but also in order to increase the availability of regular (or "classic") railways for regional train service (Train Express Régional).
However, even if the country is investing so much in new railways, local ones are pretty dilapidated in some areas : I think of some lines in Massif Central that are often in quite a bad state (with rails dating back from the 1920s or 1930s)... and funding just doesn't follow for those local lines. Since the 1990s and the décentralisation, the Régions have taken up the actual TER service, but railways remain the property of RFF and of the State.

Any opportunity to moan and the media takes it. Our trains arent the best, but they arent bad at all. We need continued investment that was lacking under thatcher to continue.

or up to 470 metres long double units as in France

Which lines do these operate on?

The longest TGV double unit is about 400 metres long I thought.

or up to 470 metres long double units as in France

Which lines do these operate on?

The longest TGV double unit is about 400 metres long I thought.

The TGV-A sets have two more cars than all TGVs, each unit being almost 238 metres long, and they too operate as double units regularly. Most TGV stops in western and southwestern France and even stations in other regions have had their platforms lengthened to be served by these double-units.

HSL in France were build to cut off journeys' time, but also in order to increase the availability of regular (or "classic") railways for regional train service (Train Express Régional).

I take issue with what you say there. Two round trips were added between Strasbourg and Sarrebourg for the TGV Est, but these are expensive. The local (regional) service was cut by more than six daily round trips at the same time.

The new AGV presented this morning.
350-360 km/h in commercial service

http://www.transport.alstom.com/home/news/hot_events/agv/agvpicture/agvwallpapers/_files/file_34541_84226.jpg

www.transport.alstom.com

is this the final design?

Alstom unveils new high-speed train

By Robert Wright, Transport Correspondent, in La Rochelle

Published: February 5 2008 11:08 | Last updated: February 5 2008 11:08

The company behind France’s flagship TGV train has taken its biggest technological leap forward in 30 years by unveiling on Tuesday a radical new design of high-speed train designed to cruise at 360kph (224mph).

The AGV – Automotrice Grand Vitesse (high-speed rail car) – will be the first French-built high-speed train to break with the train á grand vitesse (high-speed train) design pioneered on France’s first dedicated high-speed route, from Paris to Lyons, opened in 1981.

The new train, which is built by Alstom, has motors distributed on passenger coaches, rather than concentrated in power cars full of equipment at either end of the train. This system, known as distributed power, reduces the weight of the train’s heaviest vehicles and increases the space available for passengers.

The new design should enable Alstom to compete better in export markets against Siemens’ Velaro design, based on Germany’s ICE3 high-speed train, which already uses distributed power and has won recent orders in Spain and Russia.

The TGV previously won a number of export orders, with trains going to Spain for its first high-speed lines and Korea, where the train is known as KTX. Orders are pending from Morocco and Argentina.

The AGV is the world’s first train to combine distributed power with articulated carriages, where each vehicle shares a set of wheels – known as bogies – with the next. All TGVs use articulated bogies, which Alstom believes have made the trains safer and substantially reduced wear on track.

The new train’s significance for France was illustrated by the attendance of Nicolas Sarkozy, French president, at a ceremony to unveil the prototype on Tuesday at Alstom’s Bellvue test site in La Rochelle .

However, Alstom has so far won only one order for the new train – a batch of 25 units from NTV, a private Italian operator hoping to start competing against state-owned Trenitalia. There is no immediate prospect of orders from SNCF, the French state-owned train operator that developed the TGV alongside Alstom. SNCF wishes to continue ordering double-deck TGV Duplex trains based on existing technology. Because of the space needed under floors for equipment, it would be impossible to design a double-deck AGV at present.

Philippe Mellier, president of Alstom’s transport division, said Alstom would rapidly be able to demonstrate the performance, convenience, comfort and environmental and cost advantages of the AGV with the trains destined for NTV.

Building of the NTV trains will start in the middle of this year, with delivery planned for 2010 onwards.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/819cc4ee-d3d6-11dc-a8c6-0000779fd2ac.html

Is that the maximum speed in commercial service or what the tracks would actually allow?

The commercial speed is 350 km/h with acceleration to 360

I see Alstom is finally coming to their senses dropping the locomotive drive design and adopting the distributed power system like other HSRs.
The locomotive drive was already to it's potential limits and saw increasing disadvantages with more carts to pull on a single train set limiting the speed and high axis load on the locomotive cart damaging the rails.
The down size is the minimum number of carts on a single train set will become larger to obtain 360Km/h since power is combined from each cart.

Nice train ;) We will wait for new record to kick maglev's ass!

I see Alstom is finally coming to their senses dropping the locomotive drive design and adopting the distributed power system like other HSRs.
The locomotive drive was already to it's potential limits and saw increasing disadvantages with more carts to pull on a single train set limiting the speed and high axis load on the locomotive cart damaging the rails.
The down size is the minimum amount of carts on a single train set will become larger to obtain 360Km/h since power is combined from each cart.

yes but Alstom know this since a long time but the TGV is a precedent generation of high speed train (1980's) and the new Eurostar, Duplex and thalys TGV build on this technology.
Moreover TGV is always in the catalog of Alstom

Nice train ;) We will wait for new record to kick maglev's ass!

No way will it come close to 580Km/h since distributed power system has an inherit limit, smaller motors have lower maximum power output ceilings.
The advantage with distributed power system is less torque is lost through wheel/rail connection creating faster acceleration.
The locomotive style TGV took 20km to reach top speed while the latest Shinkansen N700 series takes less than 13 Km.

yes but Alstom know this since a long time but the TGV is a precedent generation of high speed train (1980's) and the new Eurostar, Duplex and thalys TGV build on this technology.
Moreover TGV is always in the catalog of Alstom

Ah, the Shinkansen system had adopted the distributed power system from the very start with it's launch in 1964.

yes but for 220-250km/h. The fist serie of Shinkansen to approch 300km/h is the serie 300 in end of 1980's.

yes but for 220-250km/h. The fist serie of Shinkansen to approch 300km/h is the serie 300 in end of 1980's.

In which what does it have to do with what? (except maybe with PRIDE?:lol:)
The reality was the Japanese engineers without access with the latest metallurgy technology did not think they were able to create a motor strong enough to reach their target speed so they took a different approach placing a motor in each cart thus creating the distributed power system.
The French engineers on the otherhand with advancement made during the 20 odd years were able to acquire newly developed material strong enough to go with the conventional locomotive approach, thus creating the TGV.
Japan really did not feel the need to innovate the system until the TGV came into service thus it took time to counter the challenge with the 300 series in the end of the 80's, after that it was tic vs tac.:lol:

We are agree. So at the beginning of the 80s, a motrice engine was more suited to approach a 300km/h wanted by the railroad company SNCF.
variable system which corresponds to the objectives of each epoch.
And Alstom really did not feel the need to innovate the system until today.

No way will it come close to 580Km/h since distributed power system has an inherit limit, smaller motors have lower maximum power output ceilings.
The advantage with distributed power system is less torque is lost through wheel/rail connection creating faster acceleration.
The locomotive style TGV took 20km to reach top speed while the latest Shinkansen N700 series takes less than 13 Km.

I don't buy that. Locomotives are only a certain size too - if size is an inherent limit for one concept it's a limit for another.

Is this the replacement for TGV? How much faster can it accelerate? Are the TGV tracks suitable for 350 km/h?

We are agree. So at the beginning of the 80s, a motrice engine was more suited to approach a 300km/h wanted by the railroad company SNCF.
variable system which corresponds to the objectives of each epoch.
And Alstom really did not feel the need to innovate the system until today.


Which was actually a mistake.

The Velaro-ICE3-AVE103-CRH3 Platform is now already 8 years in service, and is very successfull.

But better late than never.

Is this the replacement for TGV? How much faster can it accelerate? Are the TGV tracks suitable for 350 km/h?

LGV Est and Nord are designed for this speed mostly curvature-wise. Not sure about the rest of the network. South of Lyon is ok for 330km/h I believe. All the new lines will be built to the new standard though.

Is this the replacement for TGV? How much faster can it accelerate? Are the TGV tracks suitable for 350 km/h?

It's the remplacent of the TGV at 1 level but not to the TGV duplex. Delivery of Duplex continue until 2010 to the SNCF in France and has just been sold in Argentina (TGV Duplex Cobra).
TGV tracks are suitable for 350 km/h on the recent lines (Since 2000) (Lyon-Marseille, Paris-Baudrecourt(Strasbourg).)And the new future Rhin-Rhône line.

^^
This is also not the replacement for the old 1 level TGVs from SNCF, they haven't ordered AGV from Alstom yet. It's all in the article posted by Alvar Lavague, SNCF keeps on ordering more TGV Duplex sets.

FUGLY. Looks as if they tapped into the nightmares of a drunk Japanese shinkansen designer.

The SNCF will replace a part of its TGVs, an invitation to tender will be released this year. Alstom's AGV will compete with Shinkansen, Siemens' Velaro and Bombardier's high speed train.

I see Alstom is finally coming to their senses dropping the locomotive drive design and adopting the distributed power system like other HSRs.
The locomotive drive was already to it's potential limits and saw increasing disadvantages with more carts to pull on a single train set limiting the speed and high axis load on the locomotive cart damaging the rails.
The down size is the minimum number of carts on a single train set will become larger to obtain 360Km/h since power is combined from each cart.

Didn't we go over this? Air resistance is hugely more important than rolling friction at those velocities. There's no reason conventional can't pass maglev - it's more stable at high speed anyway because of the physical contact reducing air vibration.

Didn't we go over this? Air resistance is hugely more important than rolling friction at those velocities. There's no reason conventional can't pass maglev - it's more stable at high speed anyway because of the physical contact reducing air vibration.
I am equally critical of maglev and don't see it being a practical technology. But, there would need to be significant advancements in the engineering of rails to permit "conventional" trains to go the speed of maglev. The recent test in France LGV-Est absolutely destroyed the track.

A video from France 2 TV news :
http://jt.france2.fr/20h/index-fr.php?jt=0&start=602

I prefer that:

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/1876/velaro047ef1.jpg

or that one:

http://www.blogfinanciero.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/velaro.JPG


I think that it would be more fast...near 400km/h...the Velaro have the same maxim speed and it was designed few years ago...and in my opinion, the Velaro/ICE 3 looks better...

The new AGV presented this morning.
350-360 km/h in commercial service

http://www.transport.alstom.com/home/news/hot_events/agv/agvpicture/agvwallpapers/_files/file_34541_84226.jpg

www.transport.alstom.comDoes Alstom even exist anymore - thought Bombardier bought them?

I dont understand why the entrance doors in TGV trains and this are so narrow. Why are they not made with broad double doors in the middle of each car?

Bombardier never bought Alstom! :crazy:
The door you can see on the picture is meant for the driver. Anyway, I don't know any Intercity or high speed train with double doors in the middle of the car.

@Wallaroo
That would mean more space for the doors and less space for seats, that's not 'economical' enough. And it's not a commuter train, 1 small door per car is enough. The doors in the ICE aren't much bigger and the Shinkansen even has smaller doors, so maybe big double doors could be problematic with these high speeds.

Bombardier bought the German-Swedish-Swiss ADTranz, not Alstom.

I prefer that:

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/1876/velaro047ef1.jpg

or that one:

http://www.blogfinanciero.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/velaro.JPG


I think that it would be more fast...near 400km/h...the Velaro have the same maxim speed and it was designed few years ago...and in my opinion, the Velaro/ICE 3 looks better...
yes but the first advantage is that the new AGV is 15 to 30 % more economic than the trains of the current generation

I don't buy that. Locomotives are only a certain size too - if size is an inherent limit for one concept it's a limit for another.

It's a simple physics fact.
The answer lies within the amount of wire wrapped within a motor.
If you use the same material, 200M wrapped around a magnetic core will always have stronger output then a motor that only has 100M.
Therefore bigger the mass, potentially you have more space to wrap wire equating to larger output.
The trick is how to balance weight with mass.

Didn't we go over this? Air resistance is hugely more important than rolling friction at those velocities. There's no reason conventional can't pass maglev - it's more stable at high speed anyway because of the physical contact reducing air vibration.

And I have already responded to that with a simple physics equation E=1/2ma^2, stating that air drag is converted into mass which has a big toll on maximum speed.
As for air vibration, that can be reduced dramatically with aerodynamics and magnetic conduction minimizes side flurry vibrations.

@Wallaroo
That would mean more space for the doors and less space for seats, that's not 'economical' enough. And it's not a commuter train, 1 small door per car is enough. The doors in the ICE aren't much bigger and the Shinkansen even has smaller doors, so maybe big double doors could be problematic with these high speeds.

Bombardier bought the German-Swedish-Swiss ADTranz, not Alstom.Of course when high speed trains stop so few times its irrelevant. It is still better IMO with a double door in the middle of the car than two small doors in each end of the car.

Take a look at this ugly motherfucker! :lol:

Its actually a seperate (one way) locomotive, and its just as fast as the new AGV and ICE 3.

I wonder how fast it can go without the carriages.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/Talgo_350.jpg/800px-Talgo_350.jpg

Yikes, that one is hideous! What were they thinking...

I am equally critical of maglev and don't see it being a practical technology. But, there would need to be significant advancements in the engineering of rails to permit "conventional" trains to go the speed of maglev. The recent test in France LGV-Est absolutely destroyed the track.

I can imagine it did! I would say 430km/h, the same as maglev does on the Shanghai line, would be possible in the coming decade or two, though.

And I have already responded to that with a simple physics equation E=1/2ma^2, stating that air drag is converted into mass which has a big toll on maximum speed.
As for air vibration, that can be reduced dramatically with aerodynamics and magnetic conduction minimizes side flurry vibrations.

While that is an equation, it's not the equation that describes air friction with the front of the train. That equation (for drag) is:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/2/d/72d686af4bdf6ffdff7928e3a20cb4b5.png

As you can see, it's second order - it scales exponentially as v increases.

Friction doesn't even increase as v increases! Forces due to friction with the trackway remain generally the same (although the normal force with the track increases linearly with v on the leading edge of the train), and therefore as velocity increases, drag becomes by far the largest component of resistance to movement.

When you're talking about 300-400kph, the limitations are systemic (yes, the rails take some damage if they're not designed for it) but mostly energy-related, and for Japan much of the resistance (hah) to making faster trains is just due to tunnel boom.

Take a look at this ugly motherfucker! :lol:

Its actually a seperate (one way) locomotive, and its just as fast as the new AGV and ICE 3.

I wonder how fast it can go without the carriages.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/Talgo_350.jpg/800px-Talgo_350.jpg

Isn't that the Talgo 350?

freaking thing looks like a space shuttle. So if it does go into service, we can just call it the shuttle.

all in all, formost customer for this train will be the Chinese and their nation wide 300km/h network which is being built. Bombardier even designed their own 300 km/h train for the Chinese market (ofcourse they didn't put it that way, but the Chinese are the only customers atm).

btw, this train doesn't look that bad, a new paint job would do wonders.

While that is an equation, it's not the equation that describes air friction with the front of the train. That equation (for drag) is:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/2/d/72d686af4bdf6ffdff7928e3a20cb4b5.png

As you can see, it's second order - it scales exponentially as v increases.

Friction doesn't even increase as v increases! Forces due to friction with the trackway remain generally the same (although the normal force with the track increases linearly with v on the leading edge of the train), and therefore as velocity increases, drag becomes by far the largest component of resistance to movement.

When you're talking about 300-400kph, the limitations are systemic (yes, the rails take some damage if they're not designed for it) but mostly energy-related, and for Japan much of the resistance (hah) to making faster trains is just due to tunnel boom.

And drag is converted into mass into the original equation I proposed.
So mass is combined amount of weight of the train set and drag converted into weight.
E by the way equates to amount of energy drawn in as electricity(Not as potential energy stored since drag does not increase as actual mass)
The more juice you put in the more potential energy you can gain, up to the point where the motor output reaches it's ceiling.

One more thing, there is a limit in speed where traction can be applied, beyond that speed wheel-rail traction becomes zero and the wheel starts to spin idle against the rail which is the potential speed limit for conventional rail systems.

Take a look at this ugly motherfucker! :lol:

Its actually a seperate (one way) locomotive, and its just as fast as the new AGV and ICE 3.

I wonder how fast it can go without the carriages.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/Talgo_350.jpg/800px-Talgo_350.jpg


With carriages it arrives at 362 km/h-226 Mph in the new HSL Madrid-Barcelona ;)

Without...I can't imagine...

yes but the first advantage is that the new AGV is 15 to 30 % more economic than the trains of the current generation

Yes, but it's more Ugly...:D:D

Some pics:

http://estaticos02.cache.el-mundo.net/albumes/2008/02/05/tren_sarkozy/3d11c432b5866974c553256920aba211_extras_albumes_0.jpg

http://estaticos02.cache.el-mundo.net/albumes/2008/02/05/tren_sarkozy/af2ec76be6d87cd3e44e625ba0f8f168_extras_albumes_0.jpg

http://estaticos02.cache.el-mundo.net/albumes/2008/02/05/tren_sarkozy/11e1ef4b91597c1b0e73ddfb0657a4bc_extras_albumes_0.jpg

http://estaticos02.cache.el-mundo.net/albumes/2008/02/05/tren_sarkozy/640e009065189c37e67be6f3f96db006_extras_albumes_0.jpg

http://estaticos02.cache.el-mundo.net/albumes/2008/02/05/tren_sarkozy/44bf0c1ed4f741710348f658a5ec16d1_extras_albumes_0.jpg

http://estaticos02.cache.el-mundo.net/albumes/2008/02/05/tren_sarkozy/3c03c86066b37712c28682b93852e1db_extras_albumes_0.jpg



Source: http://www.elmundo.es/albumes/2008/02/05/tren_sarkozy/index.html

http://www.elmundo.es/albumes/2008/02/05/tren_sarkozy/index_1.html

Some pics:

http://estaticos02.cache.el-mundo.net/albumes/2008/02/05/tren_sarkozy/3d11c432b5866974c553256920aba211_extras_albumes_0.jpg

http://estaticos02.cache.el-mundo.net/albumes/2008/02/05/tren_sarkozy/af2ec76be6d87cd3e44e625ba0f8f168_extras_albumes_0.jpg

http://estaticos02.cache.el-mundo.net/albumes/2008/02/05/tren_sarkozy/640e009065189c37e67be6f3f96db006_extras_albumes_0.jpg



Looks very "Gerry Anderson"ish.
Anybody remember UFO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO_%28TV_series%29)?

In which what does it have to do with what? (except maybe with PRIDE?:lol:)
The reality was the Japanese engineers without access with the latest metallurgy technology did not think they were able to create a motor strong enough to reach their target speed so they took a different approach placing a motor in each cart thus creating the distributed power system.
The French engineers on the otherhand with advancement made during the 20 odd years were able to acquire newly developed material strong enough to go with the conventional locomotive approach, thus creating the TGV.
Japan really did not feel the need to innovate the system until the TGV came into service thus it took time to counter the challenge with the 300 series in the end of the 80's, after that it was tic vs tac.:lol:

Is this going to be a "mine is longer than yours" contest?

Anyway, back to the topic. I think the AGV is a great step forward for the French high speed system. Together with its clever axis arrangement (like in the TGV's) it probably will be superior to the ICE3.

The interior in the picture above looks also ways nicer than what we know from the TGV. But one would need to see more interior pics from all classes to make a judgement.

The video

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Is this going to be a "mine is longer than yours" contest?

Anyway, back to the topic. I think the AGV is a great step forward for the French high speed system. Together with its clever axis arrangement (like in the TGV's) it probably will be superior to the ICE3.

The interior in the picture above looks also ways nicer than what we know from the TGV. But one would need to see more interior pics from all classes to make a judgement.

International competition will always be a "Mine is longer than yours" contest and since you are comparing it with the ICE3 you're doing your own. :lol:
It's good since the market will be able to select from a superior product while comparing prices.
It's also good for the environment since one of the critical factors for these trains is energy efficiency leading to a smaller CO2 foot print.

Now only if the Americans will follow the example.

International competition will always be a "Mine is longer than yours" contest and since you are comparing it with the ICE3 you're doing your own. :lol:
It's good since the market will be able to select from a superior product while comparing prices.
It's also good for the environment since one of the critical factors for these trains is energy efficiency leading to a smaller CO2 foot print.

Now only if the Americans will follow the example.

I was not talking so much about competition but about the style of comparing things. ICE3 as well as the TGV are both European, neither of them is Austrian, so I have no problem to switch sides if one is better than the other. But if both do a good job there is no reason to choose sides.

The speed is certainly not impressive for a new train, there are already trains running at that speed....

The speed is certainly not impressive for a new train, there are already trains running at that speed....

There's none I'm afraid.

beautiful interiors design...l love the soft light as well...:cheers:

The speed is certainly not impressive for a new train, there are already trains running at that speed....

The new name of the game is "which consumes less energy".

The Concord went out the way of the dodos because of noise pollution and more importantly small passanger capacity combined with horrid milage to the gallon making it impractical as a commercial airplane.

Same with trains especially when price of energy is ever rising and demand to reduce Carbon emissions is becoming a world priority.

The latest Shinkansen N700 series lowered it's energy consumpution by 32% compared to the first 0 series with a speed differencial of 50Km/h.
0 series 100% (at 220Km/h)
300 series 91% (at 270Km/h)
700 series 84% (same as above)
N700 series 68% (same as above)

This all became possible due to introduction of stronger-lighter material, aerodynamic design and regenerative brakes.
Faster acceleration is also a factor since more energy is consumed through acceleration than maintenance of speed so faster you achive top speed lower the overall consumption energy it will be.

wow the french has out done the United States again in Railway Technology i am pretty sure most countries will have this running on Railways today even japan i think may think of purchasing this

i hope the United States will change its status quote again to a better one trust me on that

There's none I'm afraid.

Yes, the fastest passenger conventional rail service in the world is TGV-Est, at 320kph. FasTECH 360 will operate in Japan at 360kph, but not for some time yet.

The only thing faster for passengers is the Shanghai maglev, but that has two stops - and it's a bumpy ride.

The new name of the game is "which consumes less energy".

The Concord went out the way of the dodos because of noise pollution and more importantly small passanger capacity combined with horrid milage to the gallon making it impractical as a commercial airplane.

Same with trains especially when price of energy is ever rising and demand to reduce Carbon emissions is becoming a world priority.

The latest Shinkansen N700 series lowered it's energy consumpution by 32% compared to the first 0 series with a speed differencial of 50Km/h.
0 series 100% (at 220Km/h)
300 series 91% (at 270Km/h)
700 series 84% (same as above)
N700 series 68% (same as above)

This all became possible due to introduction of stronger-lighter material, aerodynamic design and regenerative brakes.
Faster acceleration is also a factor since more energy is consumed through acceleration than maintenance of speed so faster you achive top speed lower the overall consumption energy it will be.

So, I've been on Hikari Rail Star 700s that say 285km/h... and I thought the N700 did 300km/h on the Sanyo part of the trip.

wow the french has out done the United States again in Railway Technology i am pretty sure most countries will have this running on Railways today even japan i think may think of purchasing this


Well that will be interesting as long as France buys Japanese Shinkansen in return. :)

I wish they create a common comparison criteria for HSRs like automobiles so everyone can compare them in a unified way.

So, I've been on Hikari Rail Star 700s that say 285km/h... and I thought the N700 did 300km/h on the Sanyo part of the trip.

I pulled the figures out from JR Tokai environmental booklet, and those were the figures they had.(They also had comparative figures for 220Km/h for all models which I omitted) I believe they wanted to create a common figure through out models.

In which what does it have to do with what? (except maybe with PRIDE?:lol:)
The reality was the Japanese engineers without access with the latest metallurgy technology did not think they were able to create a motor strong enough to reach their target speed so they took a different approach placing a motor in each cart thus creating the distributed power system.
The French engineers on the otherhand with advancement made during the 20 odd years were able to acquire newly developed material strong enough to go with the conventional locomotive approach, thus creating the TGV.
Japan really did not feel the need to innovate the system until the TGV came into service thus it took time to counter the challenge with the 300 series in the end of the 80's, after that it was tic vs tac.:lol:

Waht are you talking about ???

European railways were already running 200kmh trains by the time Japanese build the Tokkaido ... faster trains were in early development or in prototipe usage (one unit class 9291 was in use in 1963 and geared for 250km/h for example) ... but as soon as the 30's there were already regular fast 160kmh trains everywhere in europe (and USA) ... and by 1963 they regularly run at 200km/h

The 1964 "0 series" are 220km/h trains ... wich in itself is a great achievement ... specialy since contrarely to french/german prototipe high speed locomotives ... the japanese produced mre than 3000 veichles (some full 180 sets ???).

The 1980 "100 series" are also 220km/h trains ... not so great

Only "200 series" (1980 and 240km/h) and followers were faster ... by that time 220kmh was a "slow" speed ...

We are agree. So at the beginning of the 80s, a motrice engine was more suited to approach a 300km/h wanted by the railroad company SNCF.
variable system which corresponds to the objectives of each epoch.
And Alstom really did not feel the need to innovate the system until today.

Actualy the TGV were "distributed power" from the start ...

The TGV Sud Est had 2 locomotives atached at each end and the 1st bogie at each side ws also motorized ... only the intermediate bogies (who suported 2 coaches each) were not motorized ... a 1/2 ratio ... :ohno:

FUGLY. Looks as if they tapped into the nightmares of a drunk Japanese shinkansen designer.

Actualy the AGV is a new adition to Alstom pallete of HST ...

TGV "classic"
TGV "duplex"
Pendulino
AGV

and that "face" looks "oh so" Italian HST ... the initial prototipes were even uglier ...

Does Alstom even exist anymore - thought Bombardier bought them?

I dont understand why the entrance doors in TGV trains and this are so narrow. Why are they not made with broad double doors in the middle of each car?

Bombardier is a small fry in Rail business ...

And are you looking at the 1st door on the set ??? thats the engineer access to the cabin ... the HST doors are usualy quite large (almost 1m wide?) and are at the extremities of the coas (they are actualy small coaches wth only 16/18m each and 1 door)

yes but the first advantage is that the new AGV is 15 to 30 % more economic than the trains of the current generation

Says who ??? PR talk ??? :cheers:

Yikes, that one is hideous! What were they thinking...

^^ They were thinking of REDUCING air drag ... you can't see them but the nose even has air intakes to "glue" the train to the rails ... :cheers:

The speed is certainly not impressive for a new train, there are already trains running at that speed....

A "comercialy cheap" train at 360kmh in service ?? where ??? :ohno:

wow the french has out done the United States again in Railway Technology i am pretty sure most countries will have this running on Railways today even japan i think may think of purchasing this

i hope the United States will change its status quote again to a better one trust me on that

Are the USA even in the High Speed Race ??? Its a fly anywhere country. :lol:

So, I've been on Hikari Rail Star 700s that say 285km/h... and I thought the N700 did 300km/h on the Sanyo part of the trip.
I pulled the figures out from JR Tokai environmental booklet, and those were the figures they had.(They also had comparative figures for 220Km/h for all models which I omitted) I believe they wanted to create a common figure through out models.

Tokkaido is limited to 270kmh ...

Waht are you talking about ???

European railways were already running 200kmh trains by the time Japanese build the Tokkaido ... faster trains were in early development or in prototipe usage (one unit class 9291 was in use in 1963 and geared for 250km/h for example) ... but as soon as the 30's there were already regular fast 160kmh trains everywhere in europe (and USA) ... and by 1963 they regularly run at 200km/h
.

You're mixing apples with oranges, the Shinkansen was the first true HSR for scheduled trains for commercial passengers to obtain top speed of 200Km.

What you are describing are all test vehicles not meant for scheduled passenger boarding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_speed_record_for_railed_vehicles#Scheduled_trains

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_speed_record_for_railed_vehicles

Does the AGV resemble the Shinkansen?
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It's a simple physics fact.
The answer lies within the amount of wire wrapped within a motor.
If you use the same material, 200M wrapped around a magnetic core will always have stronger output then a motor that only has 100M.
Therefore bigger the mass, potentially you have more space to wrap wire equating to larger output.
The trick is how to balance weight with mass.

That's technically correct misguided nonsense. Yes, a bigger motor is more powerful. It also consumes more power. It also takes up more space. And no, it isn't more efficient. The most efficient motors made are absolutely tiny. You've understood one part of the electric motor process, and made incorrect assumptions based on this knowledge.

The JR 500 series has more horsepower than Eurostar, and is a shorter train. Eurostar even uses up about another half car in total on the two cars next to the locos, because there isn't enough space to fit in all the equipment for such a powerful locomotive in the space provided. But there's space under the carriage for the JR 500 to get the same amount of power and more in 16 cars.

I started another thread since it is completely off topic.
If you wish we can debate at the following thread.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=18250484#post18250484

Yes, the fastest passenger conventional rail service in the world is TGV-Est, at 320kph. FasTECH 360 will operate in Japan at 360kph, but not for some time yet.


Additionally, the german ICE 3 has been certified for 330 Km/h, but only runs at up to 300 Km/h in Germany and 320 Km/h in France. The Spanish version is supposed to reach 350 Km/h in commercial service between Madrid and Barcelona in the not so distant future. All still below the AGV though.

this 350 vs 360 kmh vmax is only a political thing.
Those 10 kmh difference dont change anything for the passengers.

The next big step would be to give it the same performance in acceleration and decceleration as the german and japanese maglev trains have.
But thats a very very big step.

and the AVE-S103 at least is close to commercial service. The 350 kmh vmax in everyday service should be reached that year.When will the AGV reach that speed in everyday service? and on which roure?

The Talgo 350 can reach + 360 km/h quite easily if you push a bit, but obviously the top commercial speed is lower. The thing is that at those high speeds the energy used to run it doen't make it profitable compared to the benefits for the passenger.
ICE Velaro running on Spanish tracks has the world speed record at 403 km/h for a non modified train.

You're mixing apples with oranges, the Shinkansen was the first true HSR for scheduled trains for commercial passengers to obtain top speed of 200Km.

What you are describing are all test vehicles not meant for scheduled passenger boarding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_speed_record_for_railed_vehicles#Scheduled_trains

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_speed_record_for_railed_vehicles

^^ Not quite right ... I was refering to the Loco hauled european express trains like "Le Capitole" and such ... but 180km/h was common in europe BEFORE WW2 even started so 220km/h is not much of a feat ... the extension of the project is the true feat. :cheers:

^^ Not quite right ... I was refering to the Loco hauled european express trains like "Le Capitole" and such ... but 180km/h was common in europe BEFORE WW2 even started so 220km/h is not much of a feat ... the extension of the project is the true feat. :cheers:

As I said I think what you are referring to are one time stunts and/or test vehicles. If you have any reference to what you are talking about I would be interested in seeing them since doing a google or wiki search does not have turn out any reference of a trains that had those high commercial speeds.

By the way the second link shows all of the speed records for rail noted by Wiki.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r186/killman2/e2d56b7b.jpg

The Talgo 350 can reach + 360 km/h quite easily if you push a bit, but obviously the top commercial speed is lower. The thing is that at those high speeds the energy used to run it doen't make it profitable compared to the benefits for the passenger.
ICE Velaro running on Spanish tracks has the world speed record at 403 km/h for a non modified train.

I'm sure the AGV can reach much higher speeds as well, but that's not really the point. 360 Km/h is the commercial speed the AGV has been designed for and for which it will be certified. That's more than any existing train.

As I said I think what you are referring to are one time stunts and/or test vehicles. If you have any reference to what you are talking about I would be interested in seeing them since doing a google or wiki search does not have turn out any reference of a trains that had those high commercial speeds.

By the way the second link shows all of the speed records for rail noted by Wiki.

I'm inclined to agree the Japanese were the first by a whisker - plus the use of dedicated tracks .
Shinkasen: 1964 210km/h
France: Le Capitole 200km/h 1967 http://www.lococarriage.org.uk/high_speed_rail.htm
Italy: ETR 200 ran at 160km/h from 1937, ETR 300 sped up to 200km/h in 1969. http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETR_250
UK - 1930s onwards Class a4 pacifics could easily pass 160km/h, if not 180km/h in regular service, Sotavento is correct in saying such speed were attainable. Indeed, Mallard that reached over 200km/h in 1938 was an un-modified production vehicle, although that's partly the reason it broke during the record run (a modification to all the vehicles later fixed the overheating problem).

Yeah, that's exactly my point: only 10 km/h more than already existing trains. A bit of a disapointment IMO.

As I said I think what you are referring to are one time stunts and/or test vehicles. If you have any reference to what you are talking about I would be interested in seeing them since doing a google or wiki search does not have turn out any reference of a trains that had those high commercial speeds.

By the way the second link shows all of the speed records for rail noted by Wiki.

Shinkansen in 1964 run at "only" 210kmh ... it was a comon speed by that time.

Looking back the 145km/h attained in 1957 by the NARROW GAUGE Romancecar 3000 SE were more impressive (and also in japan). :cheers:

But the Italians as early as 1935 had "regular" trains running at 200km/h ... ETR200 > ETR240 > ETR250 ...

The germans had the diesel SVT's and E18/E19 electric locomotives pushing trains at 180/200km/h since 1935/39 also ....

^^ With the germans having attained 210,6km/h for the first time as early as 1903 .. .a record only broken 50 after by the french ... 331km/h in 1954

The new AGV presented this morning.
350-360 km/h in commercial service

http://www.transport.alstom.com/home/news/hot_events/agv/agvpicture/agvwallpapers/_files/file_34541_84226.jpg

www.transport.alstom.com

I like it...the first thing I thought when I saw it was "Space: 1999". It also sort of looks like the old Apollo moon capsules, too. Same color scheme and collection of hatches on the side. I can see the space shuttle resemblance too. And yes, it does kind of look like a sneaker. The Nike "swoosh" was a nice touch.

What I like about it is that it looks sleek without looking bulbous like the ICE 3 or overly sweeping, like some of the Shinkansen. It is all business. I look forward to seeing it in other liveries.

this 350 vs 360 kmh vmax is only a political thing.
Those 10 kmh difference dont change anything for the passengers.

360 km/h is a symbolic speed:
- It is 100 meters per second
- In France, classic trains run generally 160 km/h and the first TGV was designed to run at 260 km/h: AGV will add 100 km/h more.
- 360 km/h (peak speed) is necessary to run 1 000 km in 3 hours: Paris-Marseille and Paris-Toulouse (via Tours and Bordeaux).

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r186/killman2/e2d56b7b.jpg

haha it does kinda look like a nike trainer

The only thing is : this train will not be able to travel at 350 km/h on lines where 300 km/h TGV are actually running... especially on the TGV Nord and TGV Sud-Est lines, which are running to capacity.

the new AGV is simply great, would love to travel with it for one time :)

New AGV video

http://www.dailymotion.com/official/video/x4a1l1_demonstration-agv_news

Conceptual Desing

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/06/sci_nat_enl_1158751504/img/1.jpg

http://blog.choc.fr/images/actualites/fevrier2008/05-02-08/agv2.jpg

http://www.ouest-france.fr/photos/2008/02/05/P748633D552083G_px_470__w_ouestfrance_.jpg

http://www.creusot-infos.com/modules/upload/upload/AGV2.jpg

http://www.creusot-infos.com/modules/upload/upload/AGV3.jpg

http://cache.20minutes.fr/img/photos/afp/2008-01/2008-01-17/article_CPS.HYM32.170108212756.photo00.photo.default-512x418.jpg

The only thing is : this train will not be able to travel at 350 km/h on lines where 300 km/h TGV are actually running... especially on the TGV Nord and TGV Sud-Est lines, which are running to capacity.... unless all trains on one lines are AGVs.
That's more likely for TGV Est because of the tracks that are much straighter. Same for upcoming sections of TGV Atlantique...

Anyway this train was not designed for French needs specifically. It is the first time it is developped without a command from the SNCF. In fact it's called AGV because TGV is a trademark from the SNCF.
Also the recent needs of SNCF were more double deckers TGVs (duplex) to increase capacity on SE line, the AGVs is a little topic in the French network for today's needs.

And here is on youtube:

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http://estaticos02.cache.el-mundo.net/albumes/2008/02/05/tren_sarkozy/44bf0c1ed4f741710348f658a5ec16d1_extras_albumes_0.jpgCan the driver choose a certain speed (like 250 km/h) for the train to accelerate to automatically, or does he have to control that manually?

IMO it would be better only to use automatic speed selection, so that the train always accelerates and brakes as much as it can without people and coffecups tilting.,