It ponders me that after seeing the renders of Sydney's satellite cities, Sator, who is the planning minister wants to remodel Sydney's planning into a decentralised form. Sydney has been traditionally centralised right till the 2000 Olympics as it gives an immense aesthetical posture for advertising and tourism relations campaign.

Do you rather have a centralised planning where Sydney CBD remains the hub, or be decentralised where services are disperced and can be more readily accessed to wider population?

Not all people want to travel to city in a bumper to bumper traffic. But the trade off would be less office space growth, hence less skyscrapers being built.

Can we have a meaningful discussion please? It may allow skyscraper hardcore lovers (uhm Avatar uhm) to understand the other perspective.

It's like comparing France (highly centralised to Paris) and Germany (no single reigning city)

Decentralised is probably better but either way whoever is charge has to make their mind up and stick to it. The plan here will dictate where future transport links will need to go and so forth so you can't really just set everything up for a particular system and then change it overnight. If they can't make their mind up it will be even worse because things won't get done or they will be done poorly.

The current Labor government of WA tried to decentralise Perth in their first term. It caused a fair bit of investment in once run down areas however, it's all low scale stuff, therefore it doesn't really work for a smaller city like Perth. Sydney on the other hand may benefit from decentralisation as the CBD is approaching critical mass. It would be unlikey less development happens in the CBD anyway. What big firm would move out to the suburbs anyway? Remember Sydney has 'the name' unlike Chatswood, Parramatta ect..

It will probably just be Government departments moving out.

Dilaz89, major transnational corporations are located outside of Sydney due to cheaper office lease and larger floor space. Lane Cove and North Ryde hosts major corporations which needs customer care centres such as Microsoft, Sony, Canon, Wella, etc. Telstra will be moving its large portion of employees to Olympic Park.

NSW Police and Law Branch (attorney office) will be moving to Parramatta. Sydney CBD has been the traditional foothold for judiciary and will soon lose it when Parramatta completes Civic Centre.

The only major sector which will remain in Sydney CBD are banks.

I think it does give more pressure to Sydney City Council to reconsider its height restriction and Floor-Space Ratio. They want their local council rates to continue flowing like a rushing river.

I think decentralised is what I would like to see happen. An idea on how to do this may be to build a new museaum or art gallery at Parramatta. I mean a large project where visitors and tourists will go an this will help investment and the economy in that area. Imagine for example, a large world leading impressionist museum (similar to the Musée d'Orsay) being built at Parramatta. This would be fantastic. They should also lift the height restrictions in Parramatta. Maybe a large "nightlife" precinct.

I guess what I am getting at is Sydney's best chance of decentalisation is by building Parramatta into a parrallel city.

The current approach to planning in Sydney is urban consolidation as reflected in the increased density of developments across the city to slow urban sprawl.

As for whether to centralise or decentralise Sydney. I'd favour decentralisation. Development should be encouraged in the regional centres i.e Parramatta as part of promoting economic activity across the city but also to provide employment for locals, many of whom have to commute elsewhere for work. Even under the policy, Sydney will still be seen as the main centre for doing business due to its harbourside location and access to services and transport.

Millux, the Sydney CBD will still be the centre of the judicary. The major courts are still and will remain there for years to come.

I support decentralisation. I always have just that I don't support business parks. I like the city of cities idea and Sydney has been moving this way for years. What I find unfortunate is the business park style developments that are ever impeding the growth of high-rise the CBD and all the satellites. Moving away from campus style business parks would go a long way to stimulating growth where it's needed.

It's all one city anyway, regardless of where something is, but I'd rather things be logically clustered into iconic skyline forms rather than the suburban spawl that is something like Norwest.

I think that desentralization will be the best way to go. It will go a long way lifting the pressure of Sydney CBD. The reality is that in the long term regardless of what companies move out of Sydney to Parramatta or Chatswood, other companies will be lining up to move right back in. Sydney can totally afford not to have every major place of work in the CBD. I think it's the only Australian city that has the luxury IMHO.

Bottom line, Sydney will always be the most important location for business in the state, even if there is only a branch office for representation. It isn't going to suffer in the long term.

Yes, it is Sydney's natural progression and it isn't going to halt. It's now firmly entrenched. Companies and government departments that decide to move the bulk of staff to the satellites and/or business parks are still keeping certain staff, rep. offices and boardrooms in the CBD.

Sydney's CBD will still do quite alright development-wise/supply vs demand. It will even expand as we know with EDH, CUB & over the rail tracks near Central & the continuing development of Broadway & Ultimo/Pyrmont.

So I see it as getting the best of all worlds - a working main CBD, a multitude of other skylines that also "work", and entertainment/retail areas to enjoy.

Along with the urban consolidation Fabian mentions, decentralisation is making Sydney quite the well-rounded city IMO.

Now if only we got the correct supporting infrastructure to deal with all this.

BTW Don't forget that a lot of people now work in their home offices with stand alone or remote computers. Sydney's CBD and the satellites have seen a significant amount of residential development since the 90s....and more resi. scrapers are on the way.

So it isn't black and white like it used to be ie office development losing out soley to residents or vice-versa...there is a fuzzy line here now.

sydney CBD will always be the main city. all the big busnesses will stay there along with banks.Sydney will always welcome in big/tall bldgs.they wont stop
sydney is growing fast it has to expand to encompass surounding suburbs.
places like ryde ,land cove, homebush will help releave the pressure for the CBD.I dont know if you realize but have has anyone drove into sydney in peak hr? horrible. Having big office bldgs out in the burbs is a great alternative.build the bldgs where the population are!!

we are geting some great office parks
real cool modern lowrise bldgs up to 10storeys
DN BREEFF office bldg, north ryde

http://www.morrisbray.com.au/morrisbray/Portals/00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001/SC051_foundation_exterior_day_1.jpg

talavera corp centre, nryde
http://www.morrisbray.com.au/morrisbray/Portals/00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001/SC051_CSC_front_talavera.jpg

Everglades office, nryde
http://www.morrisbray.com.au/morrisbray/Portals/00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001/SC07_more_info_Everglades_abstract.jpg

Revlon
http://www.morrisbray.com.au/morrisbray/Portals/00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001/SC051_Revlon_4.jpg

some of these bldgs have massive floor plates-1000sqm-4000sqm

http://www.propertylook.com.au/listings/JLL/JLL_39/300/JLL_39_38202_30155.jpg

Homebush oneday will eb a big CBD. it has the infrastructure to acrry on with highrise population and large office bldgs. many now UC!!
http://www.holycrosscollege.org/Tour/tourtowerolymph.jpg

Homebush highrise
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/photopost/data/500/126olympicpark.jpg

http://www.sydneyolympicpark.com.au/__data/assets/image/593/site5_artist_impression1_large.jpg

NEW COMMONWEALTH BANK
http://www.sydneyolympicpark.com.au/__data/assets/image/50011/site_6_and_7_artist_impression_01_large.jpg

http://www.sydneyolympicpark.com.au/__data/assets/image/50013/site_6_and_7_artist_impression_03_large.jpg

What is dislike about business parks, is they're souless.

It's just get in, do your 8 hours and go home.

http://www.sydneyolympicpark.com.au/__data/assets/image/50013/site_6_and_7_artist_impression_03_large.jpg

THAT, reminds me of THIS:

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7312/i0201200600220uh.jpg

I think this will be good in a way, hopefully if jobs are decentralised from the city there will be less traffic in mornings. As long as they don't keep spreading out and out, it's fine.

What is dislike about business parks, is they're souless.

It's just get in, do your 8 hours and go home.

There are restaurants at Norwest business park that are open at night. You can go and eat there. I do not call this souless.

I really like skyscrapers (well I wouldn't be here if I didn't) but I am also a huge fan of large buildings not just tall. An example of this is the new Woolworths support offices building at Norwest that opened in February. At a cost of $200 million, it is home to 2500 employees. There is 64,000 sqm of office space.

http://www.downeredi.com.au/gfx/Project/IMG_3163Woolworths1.jpg

Sorry this is the only picture I can find but I will keep looking. If I cannot find anything, I will take some pictures as I work just down the road.

Some more pictures of Woolworths.

http://www.raia.com.au/awards/images/20062096/2.jpg

http://www.raia.com.au/awards/images/20062096/1.jpg

http://www.woodhead.com.au/images/1654/WW038.jpg

http://www.woodhead.com.au/images/1662/WW149.jpg

For more details: http://www.ancr.com.au/Woolworths.pdf

That sort of working enviroment is something you just can't have in conventional skyscraper. Such generous use of space and light.

There are restaurants at Norwest business park that are open at night. You can go and eat there. I do not call this souless.

That's good to hear then.

Workers need to at least enjoy where they work a little bit, giving them pubs and resturants to wind down at after work can help this immensley.

sydney CBD will always be the main city. all the big busnesses will stay there along with banks. Sydney will always welcome in big/tall bldgs. They wont stopEsp. with the very nature of private enterprise and Sydney vying to be the region's big-ass city, along with the 2 others.

Image is a part of this very nature, and I'm sure that many companies would still want to impress. So I made mention of decentralised (to a point) companies still keeping boardrooms etc in Sydney's CBD.

The only trips out to Norwest would be to show guests the backroom if you like..."here are the drones busy toiling away in our modern high-tech column-free floored service centre - this way we are efficient and cost-effective....but we'll go back to our fancy-shmancy conference room downtown for lunch before the big-wig meet eh? BTW The Norwest Golf Course just over there is also a popular amenity amongst our up-n-coming stars out here"

Meanwhile, the guests are not informed on how it takes Wendy Droopy-drawers 2 hours to get to the service centre from Ashfield every morning by public transport. All looks like very good (and yes, impressive) business so far.

Meanwhile, the guests are not informed on how it takes Wendy Droopy-drawers 2 hours to get to the service centre from Ashfield every morning by public transport...

:rofl:

Boardrooms can be anywhere. Hotels are often used to hold board meetings, and besides boards only meet properly monthly or something anyway. Even if they do maintain a fancy office in the city the CEO would still have to spend considerable time out with the rest of head office crew, wherever they happen to be. I think nowdays a CBD location is desirable mostly for location and convience rather than much else. With the notable exception of the finance sector, many of the world's biggest companies maintain headquarters out in Hicksville.

^^ Yeah no-one would disagree with any of that either. There are so many mechanisms in play here. Of course there are boardrooms elsewhere and I did say "Image is a part of this very nature" so indeed when you speak of "location", this may also allude to this.

Just not sure of your meaning of Hicksville = Hicksville or somewhere like North Ryde?

Ill add to the debate. Urban consolidation. We start to fill in the city with mixed use inner city areas, sure hubs build up in this inner area, but whole Hub creation is probably a bad idea for the built enviroment. It just scales down the problem. Centraliz around small hubs but CBD should remain the business central. Mix work with living it's the only way to fix problems with disconnected sprawled city's.

Urban consolidation, along with developments like Norwest are relatively new phenomena in many ways for Sydney. Places like Fairfield & Rockdale are already well consolidated tho'. This is indicative of where it will work really well - for the belt of middle western and middle southern suburbs.

As I made mention of earlier, having the main CBD (& also North Sydney), the major satellites, Slicon Valley-like business parks, urban consolidation and just plain ole suburbia, makes Sydney a much more interesting & diversified metropolis.

New York City is not Sydney & vice-versa but NYC decentralised a lot of service centres to Jersey City and joining more recently, Long Island City, Queens. Yet Manhattan continues to grow. Sydney's CBD is doing the same.

There are restaurants at Norwest business park that are open at night. You can go and eat there. I do not call this souless.

I really like skyscrapers (well I wouldn't be here if I didn't) but I am also a huge fan of large buildings not just tall. An example of this is the new Woolworths support offices building at Norwest that opened in February. At a cost of $200 million, it is home to 2500 employees. There is 64,000 sqm of office space.

http://www.downeredi.com.au/gfx/Project/IMG_3163Woolworths1.jpg

Sorry this is the only picture I can find but I will keep looking. If I cannot find anything, I will take some pictures as I work just down the road.
The 9 hect site in Northwest business park will actually end up with 89,000sqm which will be largest office bldg in Australia! (Melbs ANZ will be bit bigger but that hasnt started yet).
The 5x 6storey blgd will also have carpark for 6000 cars!
sydney lad- well that was the norm, but now they are stetting the huge modern bldgs amongst nice parks with man made lakes etc. very peaceful settings.
NORWEST is a 377ha world standard business park with 221ha of business sites. Major corporations like IBM, ResMed, BASF, C&W Optus, Sigma Pharmaceuticals, Wyeth Australia, Schneider Electrics and Woolworths Limited have all made Norwest their home.
Norwest also offers an International Hotel, two shopping centres, 30ha of lakes and parkland and 122ha of the Bella Vista executive residential estates!

http://www.norwestbusinesspark.com.au/cybo/images/home_spread.jpg

MAP
http://www.norwestbusinesspark.com.au/cybo/images/location_map.jpg
DETAIL
http://www.norwestbusinesspark.com.au/cybo/norwest_web.pdf

HEY they even have Hillsong church at Norwest~

http://static.flickr.com/90/254483278_dba089112b_o.jpg


http://static.flickr.com/103/254483184_82c28bce25_o.jpg

I start a new job at the Woolworths building in Norwest in January.

Very excited. Plus i live 5mins down the road :D

^^
Lucky you! I work in Norwest too but I have to drive more than an hour from my home at Wolli Creek. :(

BTW, is the Woolworths builiding open to public? Can outsiders use thier cafes and supermarket? I want to check it out one day if it is allowed.

All I can say is having Brisbane and the Gold Coast close together hasn't harmed the chances of tall highrises being built. I'm all for decentralised centralisation!! ;)

http://www.downeredi.com.au/gfx/Project/IMG_3163Woolworths1.jpg


We have all seen this dog ugly monstrosity (there is thread somewhere), must be one of the most poorly designed and ugly head offices I am yet to see. They should have left it with the metal scaffolding on, it looked far better. BTW there are not many cheap food alternatives out in Norwest. I wouldn't call it the most user-friendly business location.

http://static.flickr.com/90/254483278_dba089112b_o.jpg

That is my building on the right. Right across the lake from Wyeth

We have all seen this dog ugly monstrosity (there is thread somewhere), must be one of the most poorly designed and ugly head offices I am yet to see. They should have left it with the metal scaffolding on, it looked far better. BTW there are not many cheap food alternatives out in Norwest. I wouldn't call it the most user-friendly business location.

Oh.. I do not find it to bad. I do not like the traffic chaos is causes though. I can get a great ceasar or some escellant chinese for under $10 in Norwest. It is not too bad. Cheaper than some other places.

The 5x 6storey blgd will also have carpark for 6000 cars!

Damn that's ridiculous. How can any council possibly justify approving that? I'm all for decantralisation, but please make it sustainable.

I have a real problem with Woolworths. Not only are they responsible for that pile in Norwest, but the range of goods they sell seems to have been cut by about half every time I go there (it's 30 seconds away, so too convenient to avoid). Soon enough I'll be living on a diet dictated entirely by them!

^^ It's true but both woolworths and coles seem to reducing their selections lately. Everytime I go in items are missing or no longer stocked and what's worse is that the stupid staff know nothing. Sometimes not even where to find something in their own stores. If they laid them out logically maybe it wouldn't be so bad. Stupid fucktards.

Ages ago when Coles and that were introducing those new range of Coles brands there was talk that if existing brands did not convert to Coles or maintain high enough sales volume then they would be removed from the shelves. We could be seeing some effects of that?

Although thats wandering off topic a bit now... Of by the way Muse Hicksville was just to describe some non central location. I could have used Timbucktu or something as well I suppose. Doesn't mean anything really. Don't take it literally ;)

^^ Oh yeah, I got the gist of it...Back 'o Bourke, Whoop-Whoop and all that.

Just we are talking about specific areas of Sydney and when you posted "With the notable exception of the finance sector, many of the world's biggest companies maintain headquarters out in Hicksville", I was curious as to where you were meaning, in context.

Even so, we know that due to the 'internet superhighway revolution', companies are now able to place a lot of their business out in Hicksville, with exactly the same results that they used to achieve conventionally. The rules have changed dramatically.

In turn, as mentioned b4, this has also assisted the number of "wired-up" apartment sales in the CBD, the satellites etc, leading somewhat to more projects. People drop-off work, do some work and go to relevant meetings @ the office, yet can also work @ home from a remote. This being simplified and of course there are so many other factors in apartment sales/project development.

...

Oh I was just meaning like it isn't unsual to have many headquarters in non CBD locations. Quite a few US companies seem to do it, they have their offices in suburbs and smaller towns and stuff. But it seems to me the big finance companies still prefer to have a central and prehaps prestigious head office address. I don't know why that is.

But it seems to me the big finance companies still prefer to have a central and prehaps prestigious head office address. I don't know why that is.Possibly comes back down to exactly that, presitige (& pre-mentioned image). By its very nature the finance industry & its associated businesses are equated with big bussines, and big business is associated with the very bricks and mortar it was built upon ie the modern metropolis. We step into a conservative world here, and it will keep its core elements...its funadamentals, exactly the same as what it did a hundred years ago. Only certain mechanisms need to & will progess and loosen up (to a degree).

Not to mention those who participate aspiring to the presitige the booty may bring them, and you need to have the appropriate surroundings to at least envisage you are fulfilling these aspirations ;)

Why don't we centralise in a large area???

Maybe all of eastern suburbs and innercity and innerwest become a Tokyo kind of density with a metro???

If we decentralise, i believe that we should still centralise into key centres though.

^^ Thats what I'd like to see in Sydney but instead of east-west CBD a N-S CBD from North Sydney to Mascot or eventually Port Jackson to Botany Bay...but SKS will need some modification or better still relocation:)

Why don't we centralise in a large area???

Maybe all of eastern suburbs and innercity and innerwest become a Tokyo kind of density with a metro???.Tokyo does have sperate areas that equate to Sydney's CBDs, and is joined by a lot of consolidation and also by purely residential areas, whether by detached and/or multiple-storey dwellings. To us it may look like one big whack, but The Japanese will even say Tokyo is made up of "villages".

Sydney on the outset looks very disimilar to Tokyo due to Tokyo's mass alone, yet Sydney's development really has been going along the same kind of trail.

If we decentralise, i believe that we should still centralise into key centres though.That's what has been happening here overall though, but may depend on what you mean by as "key areas".

i have two words for you....LOS ANGELES.
that's what you don't want, trust me.
l.a. is currently in a process of trying to centralize a city which traditionally
has never had a center. why? because de-centeralized cities are unsustainable. they are like a ravenous flock of sheep, in constant need of greener pasture to graze. ok,maybe that's a bit ott, but you catch my drift.
imo, sydney can't afford to sprawl into infinity and that is what de-centralization encourages.

i have two words for you....LOS ANGELES.
that's what you don't want, trust me.
l.a. is currently in a process of trying to centralize a city which traditionally
has never had a center. why? because de-centeralized cities are unsustainable. they are like a ravenous flock of sheep, in constant need of greener pasture to graze. ok,maybe that's a bit ott, but you catch my drift.
imo, sydney can't afford to sprawl into infinity and that is what de-centralization encourages.Sydney is doing a grea job of spreading out without being asissted in that way. There are plenty of high-rise in the CBD, satellte CBDs and within areas of consolidation to actually discourage or slow down further spread.

Doesn't the government encourage it by developing huge wads of land on the outskirts?...and then it has the cheek to not provide adequate rail services. Just keep the highway conglomerates happy boyz. :D

...

i have two words for you....LOS ANGELES.
that's what you don't want, trust me.
l.a. is currently in a process of trying to centralize a city which traditionally
has never had a center. why? because de-centeralized cities are unsustainable. they are like a ravenous flock of sheep, in constant need of greener pasture to graze. ok,maybe that's a bit ott, but you catch my drift.
imo, sydney can't afford to sprawl into infinity and that is what de-centralization encourages.


Sydney's regional centres have been developed around the train stations, so it will be sustainable. It's more like Tokyo than LA.

Sydney's regional centres have been developed around the train stations, so it will be sustainable. It's more like Tokyo than LA.

i wasn't making a direct comparison between sydney and l.a. i
was merely pointing out the lessons to be learned by looking at the success or failure of planning decisions made in other cities.
p.s. saying sydney is more like tokyo, a city with over 30 million inhabitants is silly imo. no offense.

Population and mass identified to be sure. Development-wise tho' Sydney is not unlike Tokyo.

p.s. saying sydney is more like tokyo, a city with over 30 million inhabitants is silly imo. no offense.


Tokyo is just a good example of sustainable decentralised city. You can replace Tokyo in that statement with any other cities which have the similar development pattern - densifying around the train stations. I'm sure people here would understand my point...

Tokyo is just a good example of sustainable decentralised city. You can replace Tokyo in that statement with any other cities which have the similar development pattern - densifying around the train stations. I'm sure people here would understand my point...

and my point is that what works for a tokyo, a mexico city, or a sao paolo, isn't the obvious choice for a low density city like sydney.

^^
Don't worry, it is obvious for other people.

city of cities is the best. just like l.a. all australian metro should follow this way.

If Sydney is going to be de-centralized, more focus should be put on fixing the transport debacle that's been plaguing the city for so long. If you're going to have a dense concentration of business areas like Norwest, then at least make it easy to get to! The roads leading to and within the park at the moment are a joke. Wouldn't hurt to have a large train station built in the future, too.

I can see Olympic Park being a sustainable development in the future. Plenty of access to transport facilities, close proximity to major motorways, and most importantly it's easy to navigate around the place!

Wouldn't hurt to have a large train station built in the future, too.

There is a station planned under Norwest Central which is near the shopping centre.

There is a station planned under Norwest Central which is near the shopping centre.

Oh that's great! Is it going to extend from the Castle Hill line? They've really been holding that one off for a long while haven't they? :\

Oh that's great! Is it going to extend from the Castle Hill line? They've really been holding that one off for a long while haven't they? :\Yeah, and being kept held off. Seems to pop up @ State elections along with other backburners. About 3-4 years ago it seemed a certainty (I even have all the original booklets from the TIDC but maybe there was money to quickly burn in the department, so some ended up in 'limited edition' promo booklet form ;) )