This is not just about choice. A lot of tax payer money went in to the high speed railway infrastructure in Italy. It 's the duty of the government to make sure that the maximum amount of value to the taxpayer is generated from that investment. That means that government has a duty to interfere if competition ends up lowering the total value of the service offered.

This would be the same of saying government should interfere with airline schedules to maximize the use of expensively built runways and terminals, or interfere with freight and parcel services by DHL to maximize the use of highways. Which is: nonsense. The government build infrastructure for the country, and let any capable (operationally and financially) user drive/ride/fly on/over/into it.

But you can use an United Airlines ticket. Ever heard of code sharing?
Of course. But that is because United Airlines and Lufthansa don't compete for the same markets. UA doesn't fly Frankfurt-London or München-Madrid, LH doesn't fly Chicago-Los Angeles or DEnver-Miami.

And suppose you have AA and LH flights between New YOrk and Frankfurt, they will only send passengers to the other at hefty fees on extreme cases, even if otherwise that means keeping a passenger who missed a flight another 24hours in the airport. Why can't trains operate the same way? Missed a NTV train? Wait the next one 5 hours later. Or buy only last-minute expensive tickets when you are at station. Or fork money out and buy another ticket. IT's called life under yield management.

Of course Trenitalia will need to compensate for the loss of revenue, which might mean that elsewhere, where there is no competition, prices might go up, or services canceled. Which means less value to the tax payer funding al that beautiful but underutilized railway infrastructure...

That is just part of transportation markets. We shall get over it.

It seems like travel times are not so different from those of Trenitalia...
http://orario.trenitalia.com/b2c/nppPriceTravelSolutions.do?stazin=Venezia&stazout=Roma&datag=22&datam=01&dataa=2012&timsh=01&timsm=00&car=0&stazin_r=Staz_DA&stazout_r=Staz_A&datag_r=01&datam_r=01&dataa_r=2011&timsh_r=01&timsm_r=00&trencounter=0&nreq=5&solotreno=0&npag=1&sort=0&trencounter_r=0&nreq_r=5&solotreno_r=0&npag_r=1&sort_r=0&traintype=&lang=it&channel=tcom
Maybe also longer.
I guess those trains will succeed only with much lower prices... that is just far from reality I think...

NTV is throwing its chips on providing a much more comfortable and clean train. The Ferrari on rails.

NTV is throwing its chips on providing a much more comfortable and clean train. The Ferrari on rails.
I would not say that Trenitalia Hi sped trains are unconfortable or dirty...

Well, it would have been much more revolutionary to offer a low cost high speed service than an executive service in this particular historical period (crisis...)
Another private operator (Arenaways) tried to focus on an intercity service between Turin and Milan with higher standards, but it was more expensive than the one of Trenitalia... And now the society is failing... So good luck NTV.

I would not say that Trenitalia Hi sped trains are unconfortable or dirty...

Well, it would have been much more revolutionary to offer a low cost high speed service than an executive service in this particular historical period (crisis...)
Another private operator (Arenaways) tried to focus on an intercity service between Turin and Milan with higher standards, but it was more expensive than the one of Trenitalia... And now the society is failing... So good luck NTV.

I agree that the Freccie are not particularly bad trains, but from everything I heard and read their interiors are posher, and have more amenities like power sockets for every seat, wider 1st class seats and free wi-fi.

Arenaways failed because they didn't have scale (just couple regional trains) and, more important, its plans were thwarted because the Ministry of Transportation didn't let it sell tickets for all relations they wanted to, at request of Lombardia region. A complicated albeit different issue.

I agree with you: a low-cost operator would be much more powerful to shake the market at this time. High-speed trains make a huge money for Trenitalia, even after expensive track fees paid to RFI. But the market for new HS rolling stock is quite heated, I think ICEs are very expensive (more than the AGVs) and the other option would have been the AnsaldoBreda V250.

NTV is reported to have gotten a huge discount on those trains from Alstom.

In any case: a true low-cost operation (tickets sold only by Internet/smartphone/SMS, reserved place on trains but not specific seats, trains with 2nd class only carriages with a 2+3 seat alignment) has potential to come to Italy. Especially if it is one focusing on major cities only, to compete with domestic air routes (like a bunch of Milano Rogoredo - Roma Tiburtina non-stop runs in less than 3h) of low-cost airlines.

Trenitalia had those "Treno OK" in 2006 I guess, but retired them shortly afterwards.

Above all, what is interesting is that this will be true competition: no coordinated schedules, no provision for common tickets with Trenitalia, no provision to use each others' train if one is cancelled/delayed etc.[/b] Let the price wars now begin :D

If I commute on route that has three carriers but my ticket or period card is only valid for one. I see this system is not for people. When I miss a train then my ticket is not valid for next two trains, no I prefer other system that
is built for people.

I can buy different producer foodstuffs at any given time but I can use carrier service only when it rides. It is a big difference, and if rail competitors strength goes for riding few lines, freedom and some feeders suffer highly.

The feeder services can be still run as funded from state or local money (you know that roads are subsided) but freedom will suffer when people can't use all trains on their needed route without extra high spending(system not for people).

If I need to change train and the train I needed leaved 10min before my train arrival then I find this system is not built for people, when it is possible then train schedules must be coordinated.

means keeping a passenger who missed a flight another 24hours in the airport.

And riding 5h by train is for you unacceptable and aged!!

That is just part of transportation markets. We shall get over it.

When other rail services suffer then they must be covered from other sources, otherwise society suffer having more congestion and less safe/environmental friendly means of transport.

High frequency, high punctuality, safety, environmental friendly, coordinated schedules, energy efficiency, accessibility(no need for driving license) are strengths of railways what must be used to get max benefits for people.

When true competition can be introduced so that other rail services don't suffer and it brings some low cost planes down from sky then it is acceptable for society. Environment win's with no price of freedom ... all win. Of course
it means that Trenitalia and NTV will co-work for bring some planes down from sky, making most out of the system affording people to use both companies services on reasonable conditions.

As it seems to me you see money, I prefer system built for people.

This would be the same of saying government should interfere with airline schedules to maximize the use of expensively built runways and terminals, or interfere with freight and parcel services by DHL to maximize the use of highways. Which is: nonsense.

Every single airport operator interferes with the schedules of airlines. Every single one of them. And they do this indeed with the goal of maximizing the return on the infrastructure.
And governments interfere with airline schedules too. For all kinds of reasons, but often to make airports they invested in for political reasons somehow have a purpose...
I don't think Ryanair has a lot of flights where some government is not involved in footing part of the bill...

As I said again: If railways were to pay for their own infrastructure I would not have a problem with rialways doing with the ifrastructure what they want. But it's not their infrastructure. So the owner, operator of the infrastructure has a right to interfere. And if it's public infrastructure than the governement has a duty to make sure that it serves the public.

We shall get over it.

Let Italy go to hell. Get over it. Is that what you are saying?

If I commute on route that has three carriers but my ticket or period card is only valid for one. I see this system is not for people. When I miss a train then my ticket is not valid for next two trains, no I prefer other system that is built for people.

The system is built to fit an unmet equilibrium of supply and demand. It is not for people. It is for transport of people. Different things.

I can buy different producer foodstuffs at any given time but I can use carrier service only when it rides. It is a big difference, and if rail competitors strength goes for riding few lines, freedom and some feeders suffer highly.

This would be the same of saying that it is bad that if you lose your Alitalia flight Fiumicino - JFK departing 8:40, you can't take the 10:15 Continental flight on the same route. Just be on time for your trains, instead of missing it. Plan your life more, or pay for the convenience of making last-minute changes - that is the way to go.

The feeder services can be still run as funded from state or local money (you know that roads are subsided) but freedom will suffer when people can't use all trains on their needed route without extra high spending(system not for people).

No problem at all. I don't oppose public financing of the infrastructure per se (tracks, signaling, stations), I just staunchly oppose any involvement with operations. Like road or air transport (government invests in highways and airports, but do not operate or own the cars, the planes, the trucks).

If I need to change train and the train I needed leaved 10min before my train arrival then I find this system is not built for people, when it is possible then train schedules must be coordinated.

No. To have competition is a POWERFUL tool to induce innovation, price wars that lower costs indirectly (like putting pressuring to dismantle bloated railway unions paying train drivers as much as doctors or university teachers, for instance) etc. If there is enough supply of passengers in a route, companies will have a way to, each one, offer conveniently timed schedules.

The government should build tracks. Let private parties use those tracks, charge-free if that is the case (like un-tolled roads).

When other rail services suffer then they must be covered from other sources, otherwise society suffer having more congestion and less safe/environmental friendly means of transport.
It is not the role of any government to promote modal shifting. It should build, at whatever acceptable cost, the infrastructure people want to use. If everyone is driving (highways congested), build more roads, screw the environment. If everyone is riding PRIVATE trains with a market logic (lines and stations crowded), build more lines, screw the local activists and birdwatchers.

When true competition can be introduced so that other rail services don't suffer and it brings some low cost planes down from sky then it is acceptable for society. Environment win's with no price of freedom ... all win.
It's not a government's call to say that having more people using rails instead of planes and/or cars is better or worse. Governments should be "mode neutral".

Some high-speed ETR 500 trains now have 4 service classes, which is the vision from Trenitalia to its high-speed train consists, as they will all look.

From the Italian forum, I'll post some pictures of them (as released by Trenitalia)

Standard class - 272 seats per train - the present-day 2nd class. Fares will be lowered 5% and this class will see most of the promotions and discount fares.
http://www.businesspeople.it/var/ezwebin_site/storage/images/tempo-libero/viaggi/trenitalia-frecciarossa-si-fa-in-quattro-e-lancia-la-carrozza-del-silenzio_26995/c_standard/271266-1-ita-IT/C_Standard_imagelarge.jpg

Premium class - 134 seats per train - same width, longer pitch, more comfortable seats, complimentary drinks/snacks
http://www.businesspeople.it/var/ezwebin_site/storage/images/tempo-libero/viaggi/trenitalia-frecciarossa-si-fa-in-quattro-e-lancia-la-carrozza-del-silenzio_26995/c_premium/271270-1-ita-IT/C_Premium_imagelarge.jpg

Business Class 159 seats per train - meal, drinks, silent area, 115o reclination, double armrests, glass panels to increase privacy and reduce noise
http://www.businesspeople.it/var/ezwebin_site/storage/images/tempo-libero/viaggi/trenitalia-frecciarossa-si-fa-in-quattro-e-lancia-la-carrozza-del-silenzio_26995/c_business/271274-1-ita-IT/C_Business_imagelarge.jpg

Executive Class 8 seats per train - stand-alone seats only, hot meal with wine and drinks, designer-enhanced leather seats with leg rest, exclusive attendant, separate, private meeting room (on the background).
http://www.businesspeople.it/var/ezwebin_site/storage/images/tempo-libero/viaggi/trenitalia-frecciarossa-si-fa-in-quattro-e-lancia-la-carrozza-del-silenzio_26995/c_executive/271262-1-ita-IT/C_Executive_imagelarge.jpg

This is a video promoting the new executive class
0vfew89aDvI

===============

There has been some criticism because the number of the least expensive seats on each train has been reduced by 28%, though the Premium class will cost only 5% more than the standard fare of the former 2nd class. However, it will offer less discounts and "Mini" fares for advanced purchase.

Standard class - 272 seats per train

per car

Some pics I shot this morning and a couple of hours ago at Rome Tiburtina New High Speed Station, due to open to service next Monday.

The building which took fire in july has been completely demolished in the last days

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3052/tiburtina24nov1.jpg


Brand new platforms 1 and 2 east have been eventually covered

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/5198/tiburtina24nov3.jpg

This evening:

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/6665/tiburtina24nov5.jpg


http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/5700/tiburtina24nov8.jpg

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/121/tiburtina24nov12.jpg


http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/2627/tiburtina24nov15.jpg


You can check more on the Italian Forum thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1423874&page=150

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by eaglesky (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eaglesky)

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by eaglesky (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eaglesky)

No problem at all. I don't oppose public financing of the infrastructure per se (tracks, signaling, stations), I just staunchly oppose any involvement with operations. Like road or air transport (government invests in highways and airports, but do not operate or own the cars, the planes, the trucks).

So basically the tax payer should pay up and shut up. That's your point?

The Tiburtina terminal is coming nicer than I had expected from the renders.

The previous station was hideous: and old, run-down terminal with dodgy claustrophobic tunnels, vandalized thoroughly, complete the opposite of the piece or work being completed there.

Some high-speed ETR 500 trains now have 4 service classes, which is the vision from Trenitalia to its high-speed train consists, as they will all look.(...) There has been some criticism because the number of the least expensive seats on each train has been reduced by 28%, though the Premium class will cost only 5% more than the standard fare of the former 2nd class. However, it will offer less discounts and "Mini" fares for advanced purchase.
Frankly speaking this executive class business usually does no go well. DB had to abandon its slick Metropol trains between Hamburg and Cologne because demand was just not there. On Railjet the premium class just produces empty seats. The idea of a premium 2nd class is more interesting than ÖBB's idea of lumping an extra 25 Euros on top of a first class fare. Let us see if it will find exceptance in Italy or whether they will have to be sold at the old rates soon.

Frankly speaking this executive class business usually does no go well. DB had to abandon its slick Metropol trains between Hamburg and Cologne because demand was just not there. On Railjet the premium class just produces empty seats. The idea of a premium 2nd class is more interesting than ÖBB's idea of lumping an extra 25 Euros on top of a first class fare. Let us see if it will find exceptance in Italy or whether they will have to be sold at the old rates soon.

I made some simulation on Trenitalia website for services using those trains. The difference between 2nd class - standard and 2nd class - premium is low, something like 10%-15% of the total fare. What I think they missed is to offer quiet seats (a car or part of a car where noise is to be kept to a minimum, no cell phone use at all) on 2nd Premium.

As for the Executive class, I think it is more appealing on long trips, or at least it is an attempt from Trenitalia to make longer trips by train (such as Napoli-Milano) more appealing to the business traveler.

Problem is: to fork € 219 instead of ~€ 80-100 seems a bit too much for most companies budgeting travel.

It's not a government's call to say that having more people using rails instead of planes and/or cars is better or worse. Governments should be "mode neutral".

What if the voters order the government not to be "mode neutral"?

For example: The voters of the city of Basel ordered their government to reduce car traffic in the city by 10%. Should the government ignore that?

What if the voters order the government not to be "mode neutral"?

For example: The voters of the city of Basel ordered their government to reduce car traffic in the city by 10%. Should the government ignore that?

Voters of Italy don't have ballots.

Italians like to have choice.

Italy is not Switzerland.

Italians railways are to be treated more and more as business, not public services.

Italy is not Switzerland.


Noticed how far more Italians move to Switzerland than vice versa...

Noticed how far more Italians move to Switzerland than vice versa...

That has nothing to do with the quality of rail in Italy or Switzerland.

That has nothing to do with the quality of rail in Italy or Switzerland.

Well, it does, but the link isn't very strong at best

Well, it does, but the link isn't very strong at best

That's true. But it was more a remark other things. Suburbanist seems to be of the opinion that his agenda trumps everything, that the wishes of the public, the tax payer or the voter don't mean anything. I just pointed out that if Italy is in his opinion a better country than Switzerland that quite a sizeable portion of the Italian population seems to think otherwise...

... I just pointed out that if Italy is in his opinion a better country than ...

Is what a sizeable portion of the world think about us.

Noticed how far more Italians move to Switzerland than vice versa...

Very surprising, especially given the fact that there are about eight times more Italians than Swiss.

Prime minister Mario Monti arriving in Rome by HS train Eurostar Frecciarossa today.
http://images2.corriereobjects.it/Media/Foto/2011/11/28/mon_big.jpg?v=20111128163328

Some pictures forn the Italian thread of this morning official opening of Rome Tiburtina New Highspeed Station




Sight from Pietralata Side

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7008/6419917935_057ac1a7db_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dede90/6419917935/

External side

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www.flickr.com/photos/dede90/6419915289/

Internal view from the same side

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7008/6419911913_36affaf3d8_b.jpg
www.flickr.com/photos/dede90/6419911913/

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www.flickr.com/photos/dede90/6419908863/

From the main Italian newspaper website

http://images.roma.corriereobjects.it/gallery/Roma/2011/11_Novembre/tiburtina/1/img_1/tib_01_672-458_resize.jpg

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http://roma.corriere.it/gallery/roma/11-2011/tiburtina/1/inaugurazione_f38e4424-19be-11e1-8452-a4403a89a63b.shtml#2

Very good. Tiburtina indeed makes a lot of sense for the Italian HSR network.

Good, this was really needed.

Italy has purchased some new AGV trains from France.Do you have pictures ??

Nice pictures of Tiburtina!

So now, do all the high speed trains stop only at Tiburtina? Or do some of them still go to Termini?

Italy has purchased some new AGV trains from France.Do you have pictures ??

Yes, Nuovo Trasporto Viaggiatori (a new private rail operator company) ordered 25 AGVs. You can check their website (http://www.ntvspa.it/it/galleria/0/255/4/foto-treni-alta-velocita) for pictures. However, they are keen on making the final livery (and interior) a "surprise", so far they are only painted in dark red.

Italy has purchased some new AGV trains from France.Do you have pictures ??

^^
Foto di fabbrica a La Rochelle e dintorni:

http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/6728956/640/Anonymous/110802111315660538537909.jpg

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Dal forum FTF...

http://i44.tinypic.com/rbk384.jpg

Nice pictures of Tiburtina!

So now, do all the high speed trains stop only at Tiburtina? Or do some of them still go to Termini?

They all still depart and arrive at Termini. Just a few Milan-Naples trains only call at Tiburtina atm.
This will change in the future, though.

Rome Tiburtina. Earlier this evening. Pictures by me.

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The eastern parking square:

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Through the outside glass

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http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7168/6438137671_28884b2a12_b.jpg


And that's all folks !

:applause:

I mapped the pattern of lines on which trains travel types.

Can anyone suggest how to know which model trains will fall to, say, on the route Roma-Reggio Calabria and Roma-Genova. I want to make my trip travel to Italy next year so as to ride on the ETR 500, ETR 485, ETR 600, ETR 450 (a dream!!! Oldschool), on a train with a locomotive E.414 and, most importantly on the AGV (I understand that he has not yet been put into operation)

http://s016.radikal.ru/i337/1112/1f/756753afa60et.jpg (http://radikal.ru/F/s016.radikal.ru/i337/1112/1f/756753afa60e.jpg.html)

:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

Nice station. Even has a balcony for train spotters :-)

(I understand that she has not yet been put into operation)

/pedant

Can anyone suggest how to know which model trains will fall to, say, on the route Roma-Reggio Calabria and Roma-Genova. I want to make my trip travel to Italy next year so as to ride on the ETR 500, ETR 485, ETR 600, ETR 450 (a dream!!! Oldschool), on a train with a locomotive E.414 and, most importantly on the AGV (I understand that he has not yet been put into operation)

Hi, nice plans :)

You will find for sure a "Frecciabianca" EuroStarCityItalia (ESCI), with an E.414, on the Milan - Venice route. Exception are the first in the morning VE>MI and the last in the evening MI>VE, which include some coaches from/to Wien and use a "regular" E.402 B machine.
E.414 are some of the lousiest locos we have around here, I have to say... unreliable and with an extremely poor acceleration. Frecciabiancas are just regular cars hauled by a couple of those machines. On Rome - Genoa links you will find those cars, usually hauled by an E.402 B

ETR 600 are in regular service on the HS Frecciargento link Rome - Venice, sometimes you may have an ETR 485.

ETR 485 are regularly used on Rome - Verona - Brescia links.

ETR 500 cover the Milan - Rome Frecciarossa link.

ETR 450, altough not tilting anymore, is still a great train, with a superb ride quality. You will immediately recognize its interiors to be designed after airliners ones.
You can find it in service on the EuroStar link between Rome and Reggio Calabria.


NTV's AGV will probably be put into service on the main link, Milan - Rome, but we are still waiting to know when. If everything sorts out well, services may begin in early 2012.

this looks awesome! I wish we have those kind of infrastructure in the Philippines!

Hopefully the Italian public will wake up to the sham that is trenitalia after riding a (hopefully) much better service, and trenitalia will start losing massive market share... one can only dream...

Hopefully.... ETR500 is a very old train (24 y.o) refurbished 3 times (last upgrading has been cost 500 million euro) With these money Trenitalia could buy more than 500 coach absolutely new... from Siemens,Alstom or Astra Wagonae....puah!

Good point to NTV,last pics from vuesurlavoie
http://www.vuesurlavoie.com/upload/images/1319744932.jpg

Hopefully.... ETR500 is a very old train (24 y.o) refurbished 3 times (last upgrading has been cost 500 million euro) With these money Trenitalia could buy more than 500 coach absolutely new... from Siemens,Alstom or Astra Wagonae....puah!


500 million euro doesn't buy you 500+ state of the art passenger coaches. Such coaches will set you back something like euro 2 million a piece...

A video of ITALO the new private high speed train in italy. Started from march 2012:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa15DllFzSc

A video of ITALO the new private high speed train in italy. Started from march 2012:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa15DllFzScIt seems in Italy everything is possible even to gave name to French product "Italo". :lol:

It is same like if Brazil gave new name to VW Golf, Brazilo.

500 million euro doesn't buy you 500+ state of the art passenger coaches. Such coaches will set you back something like euro 2 million a piece...
K,

Probably is true. But 500 million Euros will certainly buy over 250 state of the art passenger coaches.

It seems in Italy everything is possible even to gave name to French product "Italo". :lol:

It is same like if Brazil gave new name to VW Golf, Brazilo.

I don't get your point...

It's a commercial train of a private company operating in Italy, which gives a commercial name to their own trains for a service in Italy.
It's marketing communication

Who cares where the trains were built?
If tomorrow they change 'em with Japanese or Italian trains the name will remain the same probably

^^ I even think NTV took too long to deploy their commercial service name (italo). Maybe because they didn't want to burn the brand while the service launch was delayed.

Sorry but the train is not 'built in Savigliano former Fiat factory in Italy' has been bought by the French?

It seems in Italy everything is possible even to gave name to French product "Italo". :lol:

It is same like if Brazil gave new name to VW Golf, Brazilo.



And as if the brand company's Brazilian aircraft must have French or american names, because are built by Boeing or Airbus !!!!!!!!

It seems in Italy everything is possible even to gave name to French product "Italo". :lol:

It is same like if Brazil gave new name to VW Golf, Brazilo.

Well, Volkswagen did once sell a model named "Brasilia" in Brazil.

Italo is giving us some glimpses about what the interior of their trains look like, and what the service level is going to be on a new site:
http://www.italotreno.it/
(Only in Italian, but the pictures speak for themselves)

Sorry but the train is not 'built in Savigliano former Fiat factory in Italy' has been bought by the French?

No. It was built in France

No. It was built in France

The first four sets were built in France. The rest are being built in Savigliano. That's in Italy...

Italo is giving us some glimpses about what the interior of their trains look like, and what the service level is going to be on a new site:
http://www.italotreno.it/
(Only in Italian, but the pictures speak for themselves)

Fancy. I like the interior design and train staff uniforms.

Does anyone know what happened to the Arenaways train service?

Does anyone know what happened to the Arenaways train service?

They are in the middle of a bankruptcy process.

In a nutshell, the regions (Lombardia and Piemonte) sabotaged Arenaways plans alleging they would interfere with subsidized services too much, placing a burden in regional services. The cowards at the Ministry of Infrastructure agreed.

No. It was built in France

As far I know, 8 are built in Savigliano and 17 in France.

The first four sets were built in France. The rest are being built in Savigliano. That's in Italy...OK, shell we call Audi cars from Hungary, Hungaro or Toyota cars from UK, Britano?

Savigliano is Alstom factory, anywhere. Lets finish with this nonsense.

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/504/litaliedevientlelaborat.jpg

OK, shell we call Audi cars from Hungary, Hungaro or Toyota cars from UK, Britano?


"Air Berlin" uses planes that are not built in Berlin. should that stop too?
What seems to escape you completely is that "Italo" is a brand. It's a brand that NTV uses to market it's service concept under. That the trains itself are "French" is irelevant. The management at NTV probably had a lot of brainstorms about the neam and came up with "Italo". So what. As long as the trains run on time and are cleaned regularly.


Savigliano is Alstom factory, anywhere. Lets finish with this nonsense.


Well, you started it...

As far I know, 8 are built in Savigliano and 17 in France.

I think its a lot more complex than that. As far as I know four sets have been completely build in France (ie, left La Rochelle finished). Then there are sets that have been partially build in France, and were assembled or finished to a certain extent in Savigliano. How much of the work needs to be done in Savigliano in order to be able to call the train "Italian built" I don't know.
Italians of course will stress the Italian contribution, whereas French might want to stress the French contribution...

Countdown for ITALO, the new private fast train in Italy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHFd9NlqtEM&feature=related

Maintenance center near Naples , ITALY:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=7a6spGaJJKs

OK, shell we call Audi cars from Hungary, Hungaro or Toyota cars from UK, Britano?

Savigliano is Alstom factory, anywhere. Lets finish with this nonsense.

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/504/litaliedevientlelaborat.jpg

Mamma mia quanto sei petulante!
E falla finita!!!

That Italo name dispute is one of the most stupid ones I've seen around here. The owner of the trainsets can call the train and the service however it likes, and I think that given that it is based in Italy and is going to service Italy, the name Italo fits quite well.

^^ +1

Maybe foreigner people don't know it, but in Italy plenty of people are named "Italo".

"Italo" it's a common (well, not so common) first name in Italy, not only the commercial name given by NTV to its high speed service.

Better then Fyra...

Tests in the new Bologna HS tunnel and station will begin in a few days. No-stop trains will start to use them in June, while trains from Milano and Verona will be able to stop there from December. Trains to/from Padova-Venezia will not use the tunnel anytime soon because the link between tunnel and the mainline is not yet completed. This section is 13 km long, mostly underground.

http://www.ferrovie.it/ferrovie.vis/timdettvp.php?id=2850

Italo has published some pics of the interiors of their trains to run from late March (Italo is the name NPV is using for its train services)

You can check them here on twitpic: https://twitter.com/#!/italotreno/media/slideshow?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftwitpic.com%2F8djf0i

Noteworthy:
- seat alignment, using a more airpline-style plan
- luggage lockers
- a modern and clean color scheme

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6033/6316379047_e21b25e8a7_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eaglesky/6316379047/)
Trenitalia Local Trains (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eaglesky/6316379047/) by webeagle12 (http://www.flickr.com/people/eaglesky/), on Flickr

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7160/6411293977_622736c30a_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eaglesky/6411293977/)
Corniglia‎ Train Station (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eaglesky/6411293977/) by webeagle12 (http://www.flickr.com/people/eaglesky/), on Flickr

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6240/6346249822_3482508ef4_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eaglesky/6346249822/)
Manarola Train Station (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eaglesky/6346249822/) by webeagle12 (http://www.flickr.com/people/eaglesky/), on Flickr

Nice pictures! Took the night train from Vienna to Italy? :D

Nice pictures! Took the night train from Vienna to Italy? :D

yes to Firenze (Florence). Train itself was going to Rome

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/4996/234111541464e043364224b.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/838/234111541464e043364224b.jpg/)

awesome!http://www.collegefun4u.com/track.php?u=4

500 million euro doesn't buy you 500+ state of the art passenger coaches. Such coaches will set you back something like euro 2 million a piece...

Well,OBB Railjet cost 13 million per set (loco+ 7 coach). If Siemens ES f4 U2 aka "Taurus" cost per unit 3 million (self made by OBB) every single coach cost 1,4 million. Full optional!:lol:

But Greek Railways (OSE) has ordered 79 second class open saloon passenger coaches for the Olympic Games 2004 in Athens.The carbody and the bogie have been a Siemens construction, the inside furniture and equipment has made by plans of Company Themoinsa.Cheaper yes but not bad inside.Invent Kft. an hungarian factory has modified all drawings of inside furniture for Hungarian technology, and has designed units connected to parts of coach structure.Coaches have been made in Dunakeszi (Hungary).But the carbody has been assembled in Greek with jig for assembly. Cost? 900.000 euro per coach!

2 million per coach? Maybe Alstom Pendolino or TGV.... but I don't think so...

Well,OBB Railjet cost 13 million per set (loco+ 7 coach). If Siemens ES f4 U2 aka "Taurus" cost per unit 3 million (self made by OBB) every single coach cost 1,4 million. Full optional!:lol:


The cost was actually 12.3 million per set without the locomotive, as the ÖBB already owned those. That's 1.75 million per car. And the Railjet was in fact rather cheap. So that you can't buy 500 state of the art passenger coaches for 500 million is still not the case (ÖBB paid 540 for 44 sets, or 308 cars).

The cost was actually 12.3 million per set without the locomotive, as the ÖBB already owned those. That's 1.75 million per car. And the Railjet was in fact rather cheap. So that you can't buy 500 state of the art passenger coaches for 500 million is still not the case (ÖBB paid 540 for 44 sets, or 308 cars).

Not without locos! Every Taurus were assembled in Graz and Wien by OBB. Not at München Allach and for 23 courses per 244 million euro. Total conception, construction the Wagenkästen and the interior arrangement become at the locations of Siemens TS in Graz too. Yes,in October 2007 of altogether 44 further courses in the total value by 540 million euro. Thus the railjet fleet will increase until 2013 on 67 pieces.

But the second line is very different from the first. Every coach were assembled in Allach the same ICE interior. The 2 class finally don't exist! Yes 1,75 official but not in sold as the ICE4! OBB spend less than DB for its train...1,45 per coach! Some sets were delivered to offer at CD in Czech Republic but were rejected. Cost very much outside Austria! :lol:

The cost was actually 12.3 million per set without the locomotive, as the ÖBB already owned those. That's 1.75 million per car. And the Railjet was in fact rather cheap. So that you can't buy 500 state of the art passenger coaches for 500 million is still not the case (ÖBB paid 540 for 44 sets, or 308 cars).

Thank God EU wouldn't allow that. Moreover there are many foreign operators here, there is the 2nd biggest freaking world port here, you do need separate entries to take care of it.

In any case, the problem concerns more the trains than the tracks. ProRail is doing mostly ok. The problem is that mostly NS doesn't want to pay for higher trackage fees so that ProRail increases the winterization of the tracks. But NS also don't want to spend more money winterization rolling stock.

So the blame is mostly on NS.

Thank God EU wouldn't allow that. Moreover there are many foreign operators here, there is the 2nd biggest freaking world port here, you do need separate entries to take care of it.

In any case, the problem concerns more the trains than the tracks. ProRail is doing mostly ok. The problem is that mostly NS doesn't want to pay for higher trackage fees so that ProRail increases the winterization of the tracks. But NS also don't want to spend more money winterization rolling stock.

So the blame is mostly on NS.

Whatchu talkin bout?

Not without locos! Every Taurus were assembled in Graz and Wien by OBB. Not at München Allach and for 23 courses per 244 million euro. Total conception, construction the Wagenkästen and the interior arrangement become at the locations of Siemens TS in Graz too. Yes,in October 2007 of altogether 44 further courses in the total value by 540 million euro. Thus the railjet fleet will increase until 2013 on 67 pieces.

But the second line is very different from the first. Every coach were assembled in Allach the same ICE interior. The 2 class finally don't exist! Yes 1,75 official but not in sold as the ICE4! OBB spend less than DB for its train...1,45 per coach! Some sets were delivered to offer at CD in Czech Republic but were rejected. Cost very much outside Austria! :lol:

I'm having a bit of trouble parsing what you write above. Have you just passed a German text through a machine translator?

Anyway if by "44 courses" you really mean "44 consists" I have to repeat that the consists we are talking about are just the cars. The locomotives ÖBB already had. So that is 540 million for 44 X 7 cars. You do the math.

The Railjet orders were carriages only.

Thank God EU wouldn't allow that. Moreover there are many foreign operators here, there is the 2nd biggest freaking world port here, you do need separate entries to take care of it.

In any case, the problem concerns more the trains than the tracks. ProRail is doing mostly ok. The problem is that mostly NS doesn't want to pay for higher trackage fees so that ProRail increases the winterization of the tracks. But NS also don't want to spend more money winterization rolling stock.

So the blame is mostly on NS.

??????

Dear all,
can somebody recommend me where I can find any information regarding construction cost of HSL in Italy, in particular I am looking for such information for:
1. Rome-Naples HSL
2. Turin-Milan HSL
3. Milan-Bologna HSL

I am making research, but it is very difficult to get needed info.

Thank you in advance!

Sorry, I answered on the wrong thread...

I'm having a bit of trouble parsing what you write above. Have you just passed a German text through a machine translator?

Anyway if by "44 courses" you really mean "44 consists" I have to repeat that the consists we are talking about are just the cars. The locomotives ÖBB already had. So that is 540 million for 44 X 7 cars. You do the math.

The Railjet orders were carriages only.

K,

This article should give you an idea of the Railjet cost:





CD takes on ÖBB's unwanted Railjets
Monday, October 03, 2011

CZECH Railways (CD) has placed an order for 16 230km/h push-pull Railjet trains from Siemens, taking over an option from a contract originally signed with Austrian Federal Railways (ÖBB). The deal is worth around Euros 200m and deliveries will begin in 2013, with all 16 of the seven-car sets due to enter service by 2014.


ÖBB ordered an initial batch of 23 Railjets worth Euros 244m in February 2006, and in September 2007 awarded Siemens a second contract for 44 trains. However with its financial position deteriorating, ÖBB opted last year to reduce the total number of sets on order to 51, 40 of which have been delivered so far.

CD confirmed last December that it was interested in taking on the redundant trains, and a deal was announced in June. However, the signing of the contract was delayed by a legal challenge from Škoda, which argued it was able to offer CD an alternative train that was both less costly and of comparable quality. Last month the Czech Office for the Protection of Competition (UOHS) ruled in favour of CD, allowing the order to proceed. CD insists it has negotiated "favourable terms" with ÖBB, and that the procurement was based on negotiated procedure without publication, a practice that complies with Czech and European law.

Each Railjet is 185.5m long (without a locomotive) and comprises six intermediate cars and a driving trailer. The ÖBB trains each accommodate 316 economy passengers, with 76 in first and 16 in premium class. CD plans to deploy its trains on international routes, and domestically on the Brno - Prague - Ústí nad Labem corridor, with power provided by Škoda-built Class 380 multi-system locomotives.

http://www.railjournal.com/newsflash/cd-takes-on-bbs-unwanted-railjets-1339.html

This article should give you an idea of the Railjet cost:
The deal is worth around Euros 200m and deliveries will begin in 2013, with all 16 of the seven-car sets due to enter service by 2014.


I don't get it. Do you want to prove or disprove my assertion?

Not without locos! Every Taurus were assembled in Graz and Wien by OBB. Not at München Allach and for 23 courses per 244 million euro. Total conception, construction the Wagenkästen and the interior arrangement become at the locations of Siemens TS in Graz too. Yes,in October 2007 of altogether 44 further courses in the total value by 540 million euro. Thus the railjet fleet will increase until 2013 on 67 pieces.

[...]

Actually they do that in Linz.

The coaches are being assembled by Siemens in Graz and Vienna.

CD pays an average of around € 1,8 Mio per coach.

I don't get it. Do you want to prove or disprove my assertion?

Neither.
I posted a document found in a reputable journal just to put an end to a little dispute.

Actually they do that in Linz.

The coaches are being assembled by Siemens in Graz and Vienna.

CD pays an average of around € 1,8 Mio per coach.

Yes,I wrote "were assembled".... Siemens in Linz and Graz assembled only locos alias Eurosprinter U2 and EuroRunner for state and private railways in A,HU,I and SLO :okay:

http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/7575062/640/Anonymous/ES-64-U2-Linz-26-06-2004.jpg

http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/7575072/640/Anonymous/1216-311.jpg

After the construction locos were Delivered at Siemens Terminal of München Allach for the test....

I'm having a bit of trouble parsing what you write above. Have you just passed a German text through a machine translator?

Anyway if by "44 courses" you really mean "44 consists" I have to repeat that the consists we are talking about are just the cars. The locomotives ÖBB already had. So that is 540 million for 44 X 7 cars. You do the math.

The Railjet orders were carriages only.

Courses=Carriage are synonyms! Well,about:

So that is 540 million for 44 X 7 cars. You do the math.


1,8 M.circa as wrote KingNick! :okay:

Is about the "second line" cost much more than the first. It's expensive because german Siemens working for the best of the best for its train. Railjet for the intention was the austrian answer for the HST in Europe. Built with ICE standard. For austrian Railjet 1 series were called "Raildreck" for its cheaper interior and for the garbage inside the coach when the train depart from Budapest:lol:

Testing NTV trains on national rail web
Prove nei pressi di Salone RM

yOw22NUMwVY

-

Postata anche sul 3d di RM Tiburtina:

olhR5yvycLI

ČD wanted to use its trainsets on attractive Berlin-Vienna route since mid 1990-ties. It was the decisive factor when ČD decided to buy its Pendolinos. However, due the financial difficulties ČD decreased its original order from 10 sets to 7. This was later used as an argument by german autorities that lower amount of trainsets is unable to provide sufficient transport capacity along with the argument that the German tracks are of poor quality and the Pendolino would be unable to profit from its high speed and tilting capabilities. (the quality of austrian track is also rather low). Pendolinos were condemned to stay within Czech Republic with few exeptions, creating a multi-million loss every year instead of profiting from a lucrative market.

The idea of buying Railjets is about fullfilling the same goal, but by means more acceptable to the Germans. They demanded some modifications and additional services on board, ČD decided to abolish the Premium class in the favor of first class and provide space for bicycle and more luggage space than original sets.

There is a memorandum of understanding between ČD and Siemens about buying the trainsets, however ČD could eventually cancel the deal before the end of march without any sanctions, but it seems unlikely to me. The only possible option will be if DB again denies the use of ČD trainsets on their tracks making the acquisition useless.

The order has been changed 15 trainsetsand consists 8-8 carriage trainsets and 7-7 carriage trainsets. Due to modifications costs raised to 216,5 at a cost of 1,92 mil.€ per carriage.

These trainsets are to be hauled by the locomotive Škoda 109€, breaking the hegemony of Tauruses.

Why would DB disallow CD the usage for Railjet trainsets? ÖBB Railjets are certified for 230 km/h in Germany.

The only problem could be with the new Skoda locos. Are they certified in any other country than CZ yet?

Generally speaking it doesn't make much sense for CD to buy trains like that.

Why would DB disallow CD the usage for Railjet trainsets? ÖBB Railjets are certified for 230 km/h in Germany.

The only problem could be with the new Skoda locos. Are they certified in any other country than CZ yet?

Generally speaking it doesn't make much sense for CD to buy trains like that.

I guess the operation on this route will be provided by strategic partnership between ČD and DB so the agreement of DB matters a lot. DB might choose as his Czech partner private company Regio Jet.

Škoda locos have already been certified for operation in Slovakia and are now hauling passenger trains in test mode there. I am not sure about the rest of Central European countries, but I can´t imagine that it would fail somewhere.

Well what alternatives would you recommend to Czech railways instead of Railjet?

They should do it like Regiojet. Buy used Eurofima coaches, and renew them. Those coaches are brilliant. Way more comfortable than all the new coaches (Railjet, ICE...) around these days. But I guess I am just glorifying the past here.

Eurofima coaches + new control cars. Certainly enough for CD's network.

As for certification: I remember hearing, that Skoda was having some serious issues getting their loco certified in Germany. Can't remember why though, but Germans are pretty tough here.

As for certification: I remember hearing, that Skoda was having some serious issues getting their loco certified in Germany. Can't remember why though, but Germans are pretty tough here.

Siemens protects its market... therefore declared that Skoda used Siemens patents .... of course court decision will take years and that's the aim of Siemens = delay selling of Czech locos in Germany

That is not true. If patents were being violated or not, is no question in the certification process. But apparently Skoda does have some serious issues here. One of their locos was being seized during certification runs in Austria not too long ago. Bombardier had it seized though and not Siemens.

That is not true. If patents were being violated or not, is no question in the certification process. But apparently Skoda does have some serious issues here. One of their locos was being seized during certification runs in Austria not too long ago. Bombardier had it seized though and not Siemens.

sorry my fault I was talking about Bombardier ....

They should do it like Regiojet. Buy used Eurofima coaches, and renew them. Those coaches are brilliant. Way more comfortable than all the new coaches (Railjet, ICE...) around these days. But I guess I am just glorifying the past here.

Eurofima coaches + new control cars. Certainly enough for CD's network.

As for certification: I remember hearing, that Skoda was having some serious issues getting their loco certified in Germany. Can't remember why though, but Germans are pretty tough here.

I guess the Germans and Austrians behave really protectionist about their markets and obstructions are really common when dealing with companies from Eastern Europe. Škoda will successfully complete its certification at all costs, it´s almost a matter of life and death for the loco. Germans can cause delays but not forever. However I do not say this is the case.

ČD wants also to raise their prestige, most of coaches should be modernized, but for the highest quality of IC and maybe some EC (which status is actually much lower) need something of a premium quality and image.
It does not make much difference to buy Siemens Viaggio Comfort or other cutting edge carriage from the region. The last price for comparable (but still a bit inferior) in the region was 1,75 mil.€ per carriage.

Maybe Arad and other producers are cheaper but the carriages for RegioJet though comfortable look cheap. And image counts when dealing with brands.

Well Austria's Infrastructure Ministry has proven many times already that they do not protect anybody. Just some months ago when Westbahn's Stadler trains had been certificated and germans are just ridiculously fussy in this matter. I am pretty sure though that Skoda will get the certificate for their loco in time.

They should do it like Regiojet. Buy used Eurofima coaches, and renew them. Those coaches are brilliant. Way more comfortable than all the new coaches (Railjet, ICE...) around these days. But I guess I am just glorifying the past here.

Eurofima coaches + new control cars. Certainly enough for CD's network.

As for certification: I remember hearing, that Skoda was having some serious issues getting their loco certified in Germany. Can't remember why though, but Germans are pretty tough here.

Where can I get some data about those regiojet Eurofirma coaches? Weight, air system, power they need(witch current), heating, how are doors controlled, maintenance etc. Thanks.

They bought these Eurofima coaches:

12 x ABmz 30-70
8 x Ampz 18-91
6 x Bmz 21-70

I don't have more info for you at this moment.

The initial timetable for Italo services has been released

If anyone is curious, you can check the PDF (http://www.italotreno.it/SiteCollectionDocuments/orari_italotreno.pdf).

The initial timetable for Italo services has been released

Just had a look, interesting. You may have noted that even private railway
companies put in place passenger train schedules with hourly patterns...

The initial timetable for Italo services has been released

If anyone is curious, you can check the PDF (http://www.italotreno.it/SiteCollectionDocuments/orari_italotreno.pdf).

It's interesting how they manage to be faster then Trenitalia on Milano - Napoli despite having two stops in Milano (with their services being better integrated in the Milano transport network). This is possible because they don't go in to Roma Termina, but in stead use Rome Tiburtina. When is Trenitalia expected to to the same thing?

I wonder if SNCF will coordinate it's Paris - Torino - Milano schedule with Italo. SNCF owns 25% of NTV, and coopetating with them for France - Italy traffic seems logical. NTV could sell SNCF tickets at their offices too.

Just had a look, interesting. You may have noted that even private railway
companies put in place passenger train schedules with hourly patterns...

It's probably RFI that imposes the hourly pattern, just as RFF does with SNCF...

I wonder if SNCF will coordinate it's Paris - Torino - Milano schedule with Italo.

I see that it is already coordinated (but it could be improved when TGV will start use high speed line Turin - Milano).

Now I understand why the choose MILAN P GARIBALDI for Paris - Milano trains.

TGV:
PARIS GARE DE LYON 7:49
MILAN P GARIBALDI 14:45

ITALO:
MILAN P GARIBALD 15:19

TGV:
PARIS GARE DE LYON 10:41
MILAN P GARIBALDI 17:46

ITALO:
MILAN P GARIBALD 18:03 or 18:19

It's interesting how they manage to be faster then Trenitalia on Milano - Napoli despite having two stops in Milano (with their services being better integrated in the Milano transport network). This is possible because they don't go in to Roma Termina, but in stead use Rome Tiburtina. When is Trenitalia expected to to the same thing?

I wonder if SNCF will coordinate it's Paris - Torino - Milano schedule with Italo. SNCF owns 25% of NTV, and coopetating with them for France - Italy traffic seems logical. NTV could sell SNCF tickets at their offices too.

I guess they save time by not avoiding Milano Centrale and Roma Termini approaches, which are woefully slow.

The is a major interlock/trouble ahead of Roma Tiburtina they avoid as well.

Many services with a terminus in Roma will depart/arrive from Roma Ostiense though.

One can easily see NTV padded the schedules to claim on-time performance.

Scheduled layovers:

Milano Rogoredo - 2 or 3 minutes
Bologna - 3 minutes
Firenze S.M.N. - 8 minutes
Roma Tiburtina - 7 to 13 minutes
Napoli Centrale - 12 minutes

38 minutes lost standing in intermediate stations between Milano P. Garibaldi and Salerno! One can also see how termini stations are horrible for schedules of trains merely calling there.

The problem in Firenze will be eradicated in the medium term, though, with a new underground high-speed station + urban bypass that will slash Bologna-Roma travel times by 16 minutes (it includes a massive underground sector underneath the city + underground station to a total cost around € 2,7 billion). It will be übercool, underground stations are the best.

Unfortunately Bologna HS station (directly under the existing one) and the Firenze one (aound 500 m from Santa Maria Novella) will only have four tracks.

Unfortunately Bologna HS station (directly under the existing one) and the Firenze one (aound 500 m from Santa Maria Novella) will only have four tracks.

But they will be HSR-only through stations. I guess that suffice (I think they should have at least 1 extra track for train reversal in each direction as well).

But they will be HSR-only through stations. I guess that suffice (I think they should have at least 1 extra track for train reversal in each direction as well).

Bologna and Firenze is not where you want to reverse trains. Trains should be scheduled through as much as possible.

I can imagine however that once one train per hour stops there RFI will declare the station at capacity and will force private operators to use the old station...

Turin, Porta Susa station

http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000BlMLYXC0SUs/s/600/600/porta-susa-8784.jpg

http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000h1xRgfQ_wB8/s/600/600/porta-susa-8780.jpg

http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000fLZgbLZ82Kg/s/600/600/porta-susa-8781.jpg

http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000_BR4Qo5NO8s/s/600/600/porta-susa-8779.jpg

Foto di Michele D'Ottavio... qui la galleria competa http://archivemood.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/Nuova-Stazione-Porta-Susa/G0000.XmQNWeEzCU/I0000otXzXNOOnpI/P0000QO7yjJsSeAk

gDD0wpCmHEk

APA0076 5 WA 0159 Mo, 19.Mär 2012

Verkehr/Bahn/Industrie/Auto/Italien
Ferrari-Chef will mit Zügen von Italien nach Deutschland fahren

Utl.: Privatbahn-Projekt startet dieses Jahr zunächst in Italien =

München (APA/AFP) - Der Chef des italienischen Luxusautoherstellers Ferrari will mit einem privaten Bahnunternehmen langfristig in den Zugverkehr zwischen Italien und Deutschland einsteigen. Zunächst plane er allerdings den baldigen Start der ersten drei Verbindungen innerhalb Italiens, sagte Luca di Montezemolo der "Süddeutschen Zeitung" vom Montag. Die Züge von Neapel nach Mailand und Venedig sowie von Turin nach Mailand sollten nach Ostern auf die Schienen gebracht werden.

"Wir wollen die Liberalisierung der Hochgeschwindigkeitsnetze nutzen und haben das teuerste und ambitionierteste Privatprojekt in Italien der vergangenen zehn Jahre angestoßen", sagte Montezemolo.
Auch Verbindungen über die Grenzen seien geplant. "Von Mailand und Venedig nach München oder nach Wien - das wäre fantastisch. Wir haben das beste italienische Essen an Bord, ein tolles Kino, einen Waggon fürs Relaxen. Solche Züge haben Sie noch nicht gesehen", warb der Ferrari-Chef für sein Projekt.
(Schluss) ivn/ags

Basically Montezemolo told "Süddeutsche" he wants to take advantage of HSR deregulation in Europe and plans to connect Munich and Vienna with Milan and Venice.

Austria's part over the Brenner is already equipped with ETCS L2 and about to enter service by December this year. ETCS L2 won't be seen on Austria's Southern Railway before 2021 (or even later) though. TBH without the big projects (Koralm Railway and Semmering Base Tunnel) being finished, Vienna - Venice is highly unattractive by train.

^^ Indeed. There are even no more fast(ish) trains running between Wien and Venezia.

OBB would love to run more trains (apart from EN) between Vienna and Venice, but FS is blocking heavily. SBB, DB and SNCF just have the same problems with FS.

OBB would love to run more trains (apart from EN) between Vienna and Venice, but FS is blocking heavily. SBB, DB and SNCF just have the same problems with FS.

RFI blocking OBB? Aren't issues related to safety and the deployment of the SCMT protocol?

RFI blocking OBB? Aren't issues related to safety and the deployment of the SCMT protocol?

They did that on many occasions already, where it was not just about safety.

OBB's 1216 is certified for Italy, so safety can not be a real argument here. SCMT is further more compatible with ETCS L1 locos.

Basically Montezemolo told "Süddeutsche" he wants to take advantage of HSR deregulation in Europe and plans to connect Munich and Vienna with Milan and Venice.

Austria's part over the Brenner is already equipped with ETCS L2 and about to enter service by December this year. ETCS L2 won't be seen on Austria's Southern Railway before 2021 (or even later) though. TBH without the big projects (Koralm Railway and Semmering Base Tunnel) being finished, Vienna - Venice is highly unattractive by train.

One thing they could do is just cooperate with the current DB/OeBB Brenner operation. OeBB could also run trains again from Villach to Venezia (finally putting that new line the Italians build to good use) and coordinate timetables on both the Brenner and Pontebbana routes with Italo. And then sell through tickets. Italo is opening offices in all major railway stations. They could offer DB, OeBB, SNCF etc. to sell their tickets too.

One thing they could do is just cooperate with the current DB/OeBB Brenner operation. OeBB could also run trains again from Villach to Venezia (finally putting that new line the Italians build to good use) and coordinate timetables on both the Brenner and Pontebbana routes with Italo. And then sell through tickets. Italo is opening offices in all major railway stations. They could offer DB, OeBB, SNCF etc. to sell their tickets too.

Why should Italo devalue its high effort to brand itself, at least in the Italian market, as a state-of-the-art service with THE most modern trains in Europe, a World apart from Trenitalia, then sell code-share tickets with crappy rolling stock from the late 1980s that OBB/DB uses on the Brennero route? Pointless.

It should run the AGVs all the way to Wien and München!

[..]

It should run the AGVs all the way to Wien and München!

For that Italo would need more trains, or they have to thin out their service in Italy. A code-share agreement with OBB/DB (they formed a JV for the Brenner, right?) seems to be a great idea to check whether there's demand for that service or not.

For that Italo would need more trains, or they have to thin out their service in Italy. A code-share agreement with OBB/DB (they formed a JV for the Brenner, right?) seems to be a great idea to check whether there's demand for that service or not.

Mere thinning of their domestic schedule would not be enough, as the trainsets currently owned by NTV aren't equipped to operate in Austria or Germany. They have 3 kV and 25 kV power systems, while the voltage of the Austrian and German electrification is 15 kV.

You sure the AGV could not run at 15 kv as well? I mean it's the most common Voltage in Europe these days and pretty much all new locos can run at 15 kv. I am not aware of any that can not.

it's the most common Voltage in Europe these days

It is? I would have thought 3kV or 1.5 kV or 25kV.

It is? I would have thought 3kV or 1.5 kV or 25kV.

25 kV is common in EE, yes, but apart from those kinda unimportant countries, Austria, Switzerland, Germany, Sweden and Norway are using 15 kV. Those countries form the biggest railway market in Europe.

25 kV is common in EE, yes, but apart from those kinda unimportant countries, Austria, Switzerland, Germany, Sweden and Norway are using 15 kV. Those countries form the biggest railway market in Europe.

I was asking if 15 kV is the most common voltage, as was stated. You haven't really answered that, besides some remarks about unimportant countries (apparently the UK, France, Spain, etc. are unimportant compared to Sweden and Norway?). Please provide some hard numbers proving your claim.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Europe_rail_electrification_en.svg/500px-Europe_rail_electrification_en.svg.png

The AGV is available for all 4 major European systems (1.5-3-15-25 kV), but the NTV version is only for 3 kV DC and 25 kV AC.

15 kV is in 2 compact contiguous networks.

Germany, Austria and Switzerland have 26 000 km 15 kV network. And Scandinavia has 10 000 km.

Denmark has mere 620 km electrified rail, and that split between 1500 V DC suburban network and 25 kV AC. Should Denmark change their AC network to 15 kV, to create continuous through network between Scandinavia and Germany?

You sure the AGV could not run at 15 kv as well? I mean it's the most common Voltage in Europe these days and pretty much all new locos can run at 15 kv. I am not aware of any that can not.

The problem is not the voltage, its the AC frequency. The 15KvAC systems in Germany and Austria run at 16.6 Hz, which means you need a heavier transformer. You don't put a heavier transformer in a high speed train unless you really need it. Alternatively you can use the 25Kv transformer, but accept a lower performance as with the Thalys or TGV POS sets in Germany. However you don't want lower power when you intend to cross the Alps...
Locomotives now usually get the heavier universal transformer as standard as weight is not such a critical issue there.

this might change in the future however. ABB is working on what they call a "Power Electronic Traction Transformer". Here the overhead supply first gets converted to high frequency AC so a much lighter and smaller transformer can be used. This is basically the same working principle as with a universal power supply as you get with your mobile phone (noticed how light these have become lately) but scaled up to the kinds of power requirements for railway traction. If they manage to develop this in a competive product the different overhead supply systems in Europe have effectively ceased to be an issue.

In the mean time DB has ordered lots of new trainsets from Siemens, and these so called "ICx" sets are supposed to be certified for Italy too, so I expect we will see them on the Brenner ECs too. And then Suburbanists' objection against "crappy germany stock" becomes even more moot than it already was, and there is really nothing standing in between a cooperation of NTV with OeBB-Italia...

That might prompt Trenitalia however to get in to the transalpine market itself though. Nothing wrong with that however.

15 kV is in 2 compact contiguous networks.

Germany, Austria and Switzerland have 26 000 km 15 kV network. And Scandinavia has 10 000 km.

Denmark has mere 620 km electrified rail, and that split between 1500 V DC suburban network and 25 kV AC. Should Denmark change their AC network to 15 kV, to create continuous through network between Scandinavia and Germany?

At one time it has indeed been suggested that 15Kv 16.6 Hz would have been a better choice for Denmark. But that is really not that important now.

^^ I don't think NTV/Italo and OBB should cooperate because I'd rather have them fiercely competing against each other and pushing for more direct trains instead of the stop-15-times-between-Wien-and-Venezia that we used to have.

^^ I don't think NTV/Italo and OBB should cooperate because I'd rather have them fiercely competing against each other and pushing for more direct trains instead of the stop-15-times-between-Wien-and-Venezia that we used to have.

Can't companies operating in a free market not decide for themselves what it is in their interest to do? Cooperation is common you know, and a very capitalist thing to do.
And a "stop 15 times between Wien and Venezia" type of service is quite usefull to the people living in one of those 15 stops. Notice how all but three of Italo's services on Milano - Roma stop in Bologna and Firenze... It's especially this possibility to serve more than two locations with one vehicle that is a major advantage trains offer.

^^ Too much cooperation = cartel, trust. These things are usually frowned upon, or should rightly be.

I was asking if 15 kV is the most common voltage, as was stated. You haven't really answered that, besides some remarks about unimportant countries (apparently the UK, France, Spain, etc. are unimportant compared to Sweden and Norway?). Please provide some hard numbers proving your claim.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Europe_rail_electrification_en.svg/500px-Europe_rail_electrification_en.svg.png

You see on the map, that more countries have 25 kV, but they are by far not as important on the train market, as those with 15 kV. Therefore it would just be wise for Alstom to support that Voltage.

^^ Too much cooperation = cartel, trust. These things are usually frowned upon, or should rightly be.

A co-operation between NTV and OBB/DB would finally put some pressure on FS to offer international services again.

^^ Too much cooperation = cartel, trust. These things are usually frowned upon, or should rightly be.

Only of the cooperation is to the disadvantage of the customers.

Only of the cooperation is to the disadvantage of the customers.

That is the major argument of any law firm trying to justify a merge or acquisition, or to water down cartelization concerns.

Railways in Italy are not some special case of that.

The only way to wrestle all price controls from the government to market mechanism is to abolish the de-facto monopoly of Trenitalia.

Competition can = monopoly too you know, if it results in competitors going bust. For example, my home town used to have two bus companies until de-regulation. Fierce competition ensued, pushing down prices, until one went bust.

Now we have an expensive monopoly on our bus services. Fan-bloody-tastic, hooray for Reaganomics. :banana:

^^ That is dumping. Another misconduct that should be avoided.

But ANYTHING but State-appointed schedules and prices is better for transportation of passengers. Even complete de-regulation.

Competition can = monopoly too you know, if it results in competitors going bust. For example, my home town used to have two bus companies until de-regulation. Fierce competition ensued, pushing down prices, until one went bust.

Now we have an expensive monopoly on our bus services. Fan-bloody-tastic, hooray for Reaganomics.


OK, but if the incumbent is now extracting monopoly rents, why aren't there any new companies starting? Or is the barrier to entry to high? If that is the case pleas blame the government.

OK, but if the incumbent is now extracting monopoly rents, why aren't there any new companies starting? Or is the barrier to entry to high? If that is the case pleas blame the government.

Why the government? there's a part of business administration and economics sciences that deals with calculating the optimum price a company must set in order to maximize profits while keeping entry costs too high for a competitor, it's nothing new; what do you want to the government to do? force the remaining company to increase prices so that investing in the business makes sense to other companies? that's hardly justifiable to voters

I was asking if 15 kV is the most common voltage, as was stated. You haven't really answered that, besides some remarks about unimportant countries (apparently the UK, France, Spain, etc. are unimportant compared to Sweden and Norway?). Please provide some hard numbers proving your claim.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Europe_rail_electrification_en.svg/500px-Europe_rail_electrification_en.svg.png

This map is not entirely correct :
- Belgium, Netherlands, Spain, and Italy have some 25 kV too now
- South of France also has some 25 kV (TGV, line to Nice...)
- Russia is a mix of 3 kV= and 25 kV 50 Hz
- Iran has some 25 kV 50 Hz too
- Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan are electrified, but don't know if 3 or 25 kV
- Morocco is electrified 3 kV=
- Algeria too, probably 25 kV but not sure

Multi-systems electric locs are much cheaper to buy nowadays so new
electrifications in DC technolofy have become almost non-existant. All
former DC countries now electrify in 25kV. There is however no real
business case yet to convert existing DC systems to 25kV AC. If this ever
happens, then 15kV countries will really become a minority.

No, in Italy our new electrifications are at 3000 V c.c.; 25 kV c.a. is only for HSLs.

No, in Italy our new electrifications are at 3000 V c.c.; 25 kV c.a. is only for HSLs.

They should electrify major routes (like the Adriatic line) in 25kV AC

@Ale: don't bother to reply him, Suburbanist hates trains and railways projects, except when they are costly and with limited utility ;) (so to complain, later, for the "money wasted on railways")

@Ale: don't bother to reply him, Suburbanist hates trains and railways projects, except when they are costly and with limited utility ;) (so to complain, later, for the "money wasted on railways")

Who said I hate trains?

I like trains, the modern, fast, state-of-the art ones operating over equally modern, state-of-the-art infrastructure such as Italian high speed lines. I actually like the idea of "airplane-like" train systems a lot. What I dislike are slow, money-losing regional trains, idiotic timetables forced to follow some old convention that time is measured in minutes and hours, shared-space tramways (or any shared used of any kind t.b.h.) etc.

Well, you don't need plane-like system to go to a nearby town? don't you? Different distances, different population density - that brings in different ways of ticketin, passenger cabin organisation, etc.

Today NTV trains enter service competing with Trenitalia on HS railways

Here Italo (NTV train) testing at Milano Certosa at the begginning of March
myY9fd4ULqY

Today NTV trains enter service competing with Trenitalia on HS railways

Not really...

Not really...

More precisely: NTV got its final certification. They can run trains now any moment they want. It is entirely up to NTV, which says it will start running from mid-April after Easter.

More precisely: NTV got its final certification. They can run trains now any moment they want. It is entirely up to NTV, which says it will start running from mid-April after Easter.

So Italy does not have annual timetables with assigned slots for every company?

So Italy does not have annual timetables with assigned slots for every company?

RFI had gotten its slots before... the lines on which it is going to operate are far from full or congested...

NTV got its slot with the timetable change in December 2011, but not the permission to oeprate, so these slots were existing but unused.

NTV got its slot with the timetable change in December 2011, but not the permission to oeprate, so these slots were existing but unused.

Already thought so, thanks. Timetables usually don't change in April.

Who said I hate trains?

I like trains, the modern, fast, state-of-the art ones operating over equally modern, state-of-the-art infrastructure such as Italian high speed lines. I actually like the idea of "airplane-like" train systems a lot. What I dislike are slow, money-losing regional trains, idiotic timetables forced to follow some old convention that time is measured in minutes and hours, shared-space tramways (or any shared used of any kind t.b.h.) etc.

You really must not like Italo then, as they have decided to run trains at hourly intervals...

I don't think regional trains necessarily lose money, at least in here they're always packed. Plus I don't think what matters is a single line but the network as a whole... maybe long-distance trains wouldn't be profitable if they didn't get connecting passangers from other services, for the same reason a flight between Frankfurt and Los Angeles wouldn't work without lufthansa's network to provide it with more passangers than the city of frankfurt alone has.

By the way Suburbanist, out of curiosity, how do YOU measure time? :p

I don't think regional trains necessarily lose money, at least in here they're always packed.

Average loading of regional trains in Switzerland is about 20%, so if you are seeing them packed your observations aren't typical. AFAIK in Switzerland about 30% average loading is needed for a service to break even, hence regional services need subsidies. The justification for this subsidy is that regional services reduce peak demand for road space. That has all kinds of positive externalities, which are more than worth what it costs.
For example, in Switzerland about a third of all commuting is by train. Looking at major centers like Bern and Zürich it's even more. In Zürich about 2/3 of people commuting to the city use public transit, and about everyone who communities within the city does also, with the exception of those who walk or cycle. Without public transit the number of cars on the streets in Zürich would quadruple, which would impose a tremendous cost on the city, and reduce its radioactivity immensely. For that reason subsidizing public transit is justifiable, and even a very smart thing to do. In some parts of Italy they are starting to get this too...

^^ I said necessarily and by here I didn't mean the whole Switzerland but the trains I take almost everyday which are the ones that run along lake geneva's coast between Lausanne and Genève; in fact demand is so high they are introducing for these services double-deck 400m trains this year to increase insufficient capacity. Of course not all services have such a high demand, but then it comes into play exactly what you mention about positive external effects.

In some parts of Italy they are starting to get this too...

Why do you say this? The public transport network in most cities might not be the densest or the most efficient, but public transport in Italy has always been heavily subsidized by the state and local governments. Regional trains, buses, trams or metros are very cheap compared to most of Europe.

idiotic timetables forced to follow some old convention that time is measured in minutes and hours

How do you like your timetables?

NTV will present its serivce the 12th of April, then tickets will be sold starting from the 15th anf the first train will run on the 28th, initially only between Milan and Naples.

http://www.ferrovie.it/ferrovie.vis/timdettvp.php?id=2867

Regional trains, buses, trams or metros are very cheap compared to most of Europe.

That's sometimes false. For those who read Italian, here (http://www.miol.it/stagniweb/metrop.htm) are some urban leged explained (I don't translate as these fares are not valid anymore).

Then outside Italy it is soemtimes possible to save with subscriptions, for example in Switzerland children between 12 and 16 travel for free*, while in Italy they pay full fare.

*actually they have to travel with a parent or a grand-parent and they must have a yearly subscription costing around 15€, but beside that for them it's free

I'm well aware of the urban legends related to the Italian public transport. For instance, it is a urban legend that the Italian railways are cheaper than the railways of other countries: they are not, and sometimes they are even costlier.

But with urban public transport it is an entirely different story, and calling it a urban legend is somewhat bizarre. Just compare the fares of bus or metro tickets in Rome or Milan with those in London, Paris, even Berlin, not some provincial French town. Both single fares and travel passes.

Two things:
1.Are costs competitive with rest of Europe
2.How reliable is the Italian railway network? I read some bad things about Trenitalia.

Two things:
1.Are costs competitive with rest of Europe

The costs of what? Long distance trains, commuter trains, urban transport?

2.How reliable is the Italian railway network? I read some bad things about Trenitalia.

Not very reliable compared to the German, Dutch or Swiss railways.

Can't be worse that US passenger rail network. Very slow speeds, delays, poor frequency, crappy infrastructure etc. Even the Acela HSR line is slow.

I'd say the main problems of the Italian railways are old and degraded rolling stock, terrible customer service, rigid fare structure, poor integration with other public transport systems, poor timetable planning, decaying medium and small stations, declining investments on minor lines.
Punctuality is not really a problem in my experience, although of course people tend to be very sensitive about it. Speed and frequencies are generally pretty good, even on many non-HS lines.

Any chance Italian high speed rail service can pull off what German ICE might be able to do and negin direct link to London?

Frequencies .are often acceptable (but not to German or Swiss standards), but trains lack coordination (trains A-B and B-C miss each other for 5 minutes).

Then there are many holes, sometimes quite absurd. Between Pescara and Foggia (http://maps.google.ch/maps?saddr=Pescara&daddr=Foggia&hl=it&ll=42.018692,14.900208&spn=1.493644,2.469177&sll=45.413876,10.008545&sspn=5.645386,9.876709&geocode=FTr2hwIdz-PYACm3HIw1DqYxEzEQ9Dmymk8JBA%3BFRSqeAIdqjHtACl9X7l55dc5EzFwAo6ApHIKBA&mra=ls&t=m&z=9) there are no trains between 6.35 and 12.38, then there is one every hour until 20.51. That because the 6.35 train is a regional one stopping everywhere, the others are long distance trains coming from the north (Torino/Milano/Bologna) that reach Pescara in the afternoon. In the other direction the last fast train leaves at 16.45.

Our rolling stock is composed of locomotives(mostly diesel ones) with bulky designs.

Why do you say this? The public transport network in most cities might not be the densest or the most efficient, but public transport in Italy has always been heavily subsidized by the state and local governments. Regional trains, buses, trams or metros are very cheap compared to most of Europe.

They are heavily subsidized, true, but the resulting service levels are often way below what similar levels of subsidies achieve elsewhere. That because there is no competitive tendering. That is changing however.

Roma Tiburtina from the plane


3 settimane fa circa, in avvicinamento a Ciampino

http://i40.tinypic.com/2vmfz1g.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/35hfngz.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/10f3w4p.jpg

Italo has finally started selling tickets! First train runs Apr. 28th

Oh nice, just viewed the Alstom Megafactories NGC-broadcast about the construction of the NTV-AGV's and was wondered about the state of the service.

Italo has finally started selling tickets! First train runs Apr. 28th

Good to hear that :cheers:

Oh nice, just viewed the Alstom Megafactories NGC-broadcast about the construction of the NTV-AGV's and was wondered about the state of the service.
That broadcast was quite interesting, wasn't it.

Aviable to download!

NTV Italo! MSTS / OpenRail

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk168/railfanve/564029_419571764725657_100000185122443_1834743_591338322_n.jpg

http://www.trenesvenezolanos.com/Paywares.htm

Test before real running!

Italy launches Europe's first private high-speed train
Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 13:19 by AFP
http://www.mmail.com.my/story/italy-launches-europes-first-private-high-speed-train

http://www.mmail.com.my/sites/default/files/imagecache/large/000_Par7020969.jpg

A photographer takes a picture of a train of the railway company NTV on
April 20 at Rome's Tiburtina station. NTV, the first private operator on the
Italian high speed rail network, makes his first trip between Rome and Naples on April 20. AFPpic

NAPLES, Italy: Italy launched Europe's first private high-speed train service last week, as the country looks towards the more liberal economy that Prime Minister Mario Monti wants to put on the rails.

The dark-red bullet-shaped "Italo" trains are run by NTV, a company headed by Ferrari boss Luca di Montezemolo who wants to take a quarter of the market from state rail network Trenitalia, the biggest employer in the country.

"Italo has arrived, the competition has kicked off," NTV told its first passengers on an inaugural trip from Rome to Naples as they admired interiors that included a cinema carriage, leather seats and panoramic windows.

The project is one example of the new ambitions of the eurozone's third largest economy under Monti, a former EU competition commissioner who plans to shake up a sluggish economy heavily influenced by protectionist traditions.

Economics professor Monti came to power in November replacing Silvio Berlusconi and has said he wants to take on "vested interests" as well as calling for large-scale privatisations.

"We're talking a lot about growth. This is real growth for the country by someone who invests and takes a risk," Montezemolo told reporters, pointing out that the company had invested one billion euros (RM4 billion).

http://www.mmail.com.my/sites/default/files/imagecache/medium/000_Par7021002.jpg

Luca Cordero di Montezemolo, president of the railway company NTV walks
into a wagon prior to departure on April 20 from Rome's Tiburtina station. AFPpic

"We should be proud of being the first in Europe with a private high-speed train company," said the entrepreneur, who has struggled for years to get the project up and running, condemning Trenitalia for its obstructionism.

"This is a day that shows we have confidence in our country," he said.

France's national rail company SNCF owns a 20-per cent stake in NTV but the majority is held by a consortium of Italian businessmen including Montezemolo and Diego Della Valle, the billionaire head of luxury shoemaker Tod's.

The carriages are produced by French company Alstom.

"Our aim is to take a 20-25 per cent stake of the market by 2014," transporting nine million passengers within three years, Montezemolo said, adding that the company would operate 25 trains by January 2013.

"Consumers have already benefited from the beginning of competition. Trenitalia has lowered its ticket prices and improved the service," Marco Ponti, a professor of transport economics in Milan, told AFP.

"Italo" hopes to gain a competitive advantage with a system offering passengers cut-price tickets by booking early or travelling at off-peak times.

But Ponti warned that the nascent competition may be too "uneven."

"This is a dwarf against a giant. Trenitalia owns the railway, the stations, the waiting rooms, everything," he said.

"The economy is not very favourable with the crisis," he said, adding: "Montezemolo can go bankrupt, Trenitalia can't. It's a state company."

Italy's economy entered recession in the second half of last year and the government this week warned that the situation will worsen, with a forecast contraction in gross domestic product (GDP) of 1.2 per cent this year.

Ponti warned that the economic outlook could bring Trenitalia and NTV together with a deal "that would destroy healthy competition."

"What we need is a third player," he said.

The head of Trenitalia, Mauro Moretti, played down talk of a bitter rivalry saying this was "a new, unique challenge ... in the interests of our clients."

"Italo has arrived, the competition has kicked off," NTV told its first passengers on an inaugural trip from Rome to Naples as they admired interiors that included a cinema carriage, leather seats and panoramic windows.

Although it's true it has many windows, half of the seats are placed near the walls between windows, without any view...

So how does private train company in Italy work? do they share tracks with the state owned rail company?

So how does private train company in Italy work? do they share tracks with the state owned rail company?

In Italy, infrastructure and vehicle operation are separated.

RFI owns tracks and some stations (not the biggest ones). Companies (such as Trenitalia, Trenord, NTV-Italo) tun trains over RFI's tracks.

Yea so they do share the track with state run Trenitalia?

Yes of course. As in most countries almost all tracks are government owned.

Very nice train. When will it start running between other cities?

To Salerno this summer, to Venice in October, to Turin in December.

^^ MAny people forget the high-speed line goes actually to Salerno, and not Napoli.

To Salerno this summer, to Venice in October, to Turin in December.

Naples-Salerno, Rome-Venice, Rome-Turin?

Actually, Napoli-Salerno is not a real high speed line; the project date to '70 and it seems more a german "ABS".

^^ Vmax there is 265 km/h

In Italy, infrastructure and vehicle operation are separated.


Theoretically.... :devil: :D

Naples-Salerno
Just Naples-Salerno by HS doesn't make any sense

There are Rome-Salerno or Milan-Salerno and so on calling at Naples

^^ Vmax there is 265 km/h

Nope!
The line has a top speed of 250km/h , with several sections where the top speed is limited to 140-160-180 km/h.

Also, it seems that the maximum line speed is not yet exploited on revenue services.

The journey times for the fast trains are around 35 minutes for the IC, 30 minutes for the Eurostar Italia which is a first level IC, and 37 minutes for the FrecciaRossa, which is meant to be the fastest italian HST...

Since the line lenght is about 69 km..the best average speed achieved by the first level ICs (Eurostar Italia) is short of 140 km/h, whilst the fastest HST (FrecciaRossa) has an average speed of about 120 km/h.

Italo Go!

http://www.trenesvenezolanos.com/Banner%20agv.png

http://www.trenesvenezolanos.com/Paywares.htm

Two Frecciarossa collided this evening on entering Rome Termini station. Seven people are reported injured, none of them seriously. Rail traffic around Rome was severely disrupted.

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/5940/colli05672458resize.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/707/colli05672458resize.jpg/)

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Bologna HS bypass almost finished


E' un video dove si può ammirare la Centrale sotterranea (dal minuto 14:25) :
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Bellissimo. Grazie :)

Questo il video in direzione opposta MI-->RM.

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Lavoravano anche ieri, scattate di prima mattina la forte luce non aiutava. :)


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So any early impressions about the new Italo service? Everything running smoothly so far?

Meanwhile a pic of Torino Porta Susa HS station


http://i49.tinypic.com/1444uf.jpg

So any early impressions about the new Italo service? Everything running smoothly so far?

Pretty much. There are complains that the WiFi doesn't work between Florence and Bologna, but apart from that not much to say.

Aerial pics of Torino Porta Susa




http://www.paolobartone.com/lightbox/imgs/ingrandimenti/passante/Panoramica_0677_0678.jpg


http://www.paolobartone.com/lightbox/imgs/ingrandimenti/passante/DSC_1183.jpg

So any early impressions about the new Italo service? Everything running smoothly so far?
I tried it a few days ago, Naples - Bologna.

Long story short:
- high quality ride, not as the ETR 500 which still are great;
- best acceleration I've ever seen in Europe, even at full speed;
- second class (Smart) seats are incredibly uncomfortable, and that's a pity;
- very high standards in Customer Care and great attention to details.

Still some set-up problems with WiFi and on board Cinema, but I think they'll sort them up.

Terrible seats apart, NTV is offering a great package.